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[2024 CODE UPDATE] Ask me anything about home electrical requirements, electrical code, wiring, devices

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Deal Addict
Mar 29, 2015
1999 posts
158 upvotes
Wood Bridge
Drew_W wrote: It would be easier to find that top plate of the wall in the attic and drill down. Spray foam the hole around the wire when you're done.
what about when the pitch angle of the roof is less than 45degrees and its the outside wall, your top plate will have a very hard time getting the drill bit to drill straight downwards it would probably be easier upwards, no?
Thanks
Member
Jul 4, 2012
211 posts
49 upvotes
CAMBRIDGE
Quentin5 wrote: Thats a good question, when retrofitting how do the permits handle the clips that are supposed to be something like 12 inches from the box, since they can't be installed in a plaster/lath retrofit.
Rule 12-520 Fished Cable Installation
Where the cable is used in concealed wiring and it is impracticable to provide the supports required by
Rule 12-510, and where metal sheeting or cladding, metal joists, metal top or bottom plates, or metal studs are
not used, the cable shall be permitted to be fished.
Deal Addict
Mar 29, 2015
1999 posts
158 upvotes
Wood Bridge
cool ,so any update on attic down vs hole in drywall upwardS?
Thanks
Deal Addict
Feb 28, 2016
1569 posts
1156 upvotes
Drew_W wrote: An RCP/Electrical plan is not required for building permits...though it is nice to have.
True, the city could care less as to what the layout is as long as the ESA is happy with the end results.
Deal Expert
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Oct 26, 2003
39338 posts
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Winnipeg
Stronzo1 wrote: How difficult would it be to drill from the light switch box of a bedroom up into the attic to fish a new hydro wire? Im gonna buy a 6 ft drill rod.
quite annoying, mostly due to the fiberglass insulation in the roof
Deal Expert
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Oct 26, 2003
39338 posts
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Winnipeg
paintballdude05 wrote: I had no existing plans for the house, and neither does the city, so I had to create them from scratch. With this whole duplex reno I have going on, I'll need to plans to submit to the city when I go for permits. I even went as far as mapping out what outlets, switches and lights are on what circuit which helped a lot during the panel swap. I was never thought how to draw electrical on a house plan so what I ended up with is probably out of the norm. I'll spend some time cleaning it up this week and I'll flip it over to you if you don't mind taking a look at it.
yeah i can take a look at it, it's good to have a set of drawings for references, i'm not going to stamp it for permit though.
Deal Addict
Mar 29, 2015
1999 posts
158 upvotes
Wood Bridge
divx wrote: quite annoying, mostly due to the fiberglass insulation in the roof
Annoying but not impossible no? Insulation is least of my worrys
Thanks
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
39338 posts
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Winnipeg
Stronzo1 wrote: Annoying but not impossible no? Insulation is least of my worrys
you are the one doing the work
Deal Expert
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Oct 26, 2003
39338 posts
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Winnipeg
guys, if you buy new house/condo, there should be plans, you can take a photo and send to me for review/comment regarding their electrical/data, if you buying pre-construction, then you can actually make changes like adding EV charger, A/V projection, cat6 wiring, etc. Also, be sure to get the plan when you buy it, makes it so much easier to do renovation later.
Deal Addict
Feb 28, 2016
1569 posts
1156 upvotes
divx wrote: yeah i can take a look at it, it's good to have a set of drawings for references, i'm not going to stamp it for permit though.
Yeah no problem, I wasn't expecting a stamp!
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
39338 posts
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Winnipeg
soon i will take questions regarding mechanical as i be learning to do mechanical design as well, hvac, piping, plumbing, etc
Newbie
Jun 14, 2016
25 posts
1 upvote
Ontario
Hi Folks,

I'm getting ready to rewire 8 aluminum circuits in my house (Ontario) which involves replacing quite a few metal boxes and I'd like to minimize the damage to drywall around switches and outlets during this process. I know single gang rework boxes are available that clamp directly to the drywall, but I'm not too keen on this approach especially for outlets where someone could yank on a cable. Also, I haven't been able to find any 2-gane or 3-gang rework boxes (there are some plastic ones in the US, but I haven't found any certified for Canada).

With that in mind, here are my questions:

1) I know 12-3010(5) says that nails or screws can "project into or pass through" a box if they are not more than 6.4mm from the "back or ends" of the box and will not interfere with conductors/connectors.

[INDENT]a) Knowing that all the boxes that I'm replacing will already be right beside a wood stud, is it acceptable to screw the new boxes to the stud from INSIDE the box from an angle (does that satisfy "project/pass through" above as the screw head will be inside the box and slightly angled)?[/INDENT]

[INDENT]b) In 12-3010(5) above, what does "ends of the box" mean? Is it referring to the corners between the side walls of the box? Some boxes have pre-drilled holes on the side walls, Can I assume these holes are always spaced to satisfy this rule?[/INDENT]

[INDENT]c) If I cannot screw from inside the box, is using construction adhesive to glue the box to the studs an option?[/INDENT]

[INDENT]d) If all else fails, I can use rework boxes for single gang boxes, but are there any other options for replacing multi-gang boxes that don't involve cutting holes in drywall?[/INDENT]

2) My current panel is old with no AFI breakers available (all 8 new circuits will need AFIs). Replacing the panel is problematic for a number of reasons so I plan to install a subpanel. Rule 8-108(2) requires two empty spots in a service panel. Does this apply to the new subpanel as well? That is, for 8 AFI circuits, will I need a panel with at least 10 spaces?

3) The largest breaker (compatible with my old panel) that I've been able to find for the sub panel feeder is 40amps. Will that be sufficient for 8 circuits (all general lighting and outlets - load calculation based on floor area gives ~2,000sqft/6,000watts which is closer to 50amps)?

4) I need 3 circuits in the upper level and I'm planning to run three cables from the basement to the attic along the ventilation stack and fish down into the rooms from there. Am I understanding table 5C correctly that I can simply run 3 14/2 cables for this, knowing that the cables will be touching/bundled the whole way up into the attic? (5C says 4-6 conductors must be de-rated to 80%, but each circuit is already limited to 12amps because of 8-304)?

Thanks in advance!
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Jan 6, 2002
6833 posts
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Toronto
divx wrote: soon i will take questions regarding mechanical as i be learning to do mechanical design as well, hvac, piping, plumbing, etc
How about landscaping? I need to figure out what plants to plant in my planters so my backyard is planted with plenty of plants.... :cheesygri
Si Tacuisses, Philosophus Mansisses
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
39338 posts
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Winnipeg
hoob wrote: How about landscaping? I need to figure out what plants to plant in my planters so my backyard is planted with plenty of plants.... :cheesygri
heh, i'm only interested in M&E at the moment, i figured since i review mechanical plans anyway, might as well do them too
Member
Jan 27, 2013
434 posts
34 upvotes
Toronto
The outlets in one of the rooms of my basement stopped working. The only reason I can think something went wrong is because I had a fridge plugged in and maybe it overloaded the circuit or something (sorry for my lack of electrical vocabulary or knowledge...haha). I have an electrician coming to look at the issue on June 23rd. They charge a rate of $160 per hour, and then $60 per hour after that. I'm hoping that they can diagnose and fix the issue to prevent it from happening again.

1) Is that a fair price for an electrician?
1b) If that is not a fair price, can anyone recommend a good electrician at a better price?
2) What do you think the best and worst situation (in terms of cost) would be?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Deal Guru
User avatar
Mar 23, 2008
13006 posts
10009 upvotes
Edmonton
kingtosh82 wrote: The outlets in one of the rooms of my basement stopped working. The only reason I can think something went wrong is because I had a fridge plugged in and maybe it overloaded the circuit or something (sorry for my lack of electrical vocabulary or knowledge...haha). I have an electrician coming to look at the issue on June 23rd. They charge a rate of $160 per hour, and then $60 per hour after that. I'm hoping that they can diagnose and fix the issue to prevent it from happening again.

1) Is that a fair price for an electrician?
1b) If that is not a fair price, can anyone recommend a good electrician at a better price?
2) What do you think the best and worst situation (in terms of cost) would be?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
The price doesn't seem unreasonable. But before they show up... Have you checked the circuit breakers? You can also try flipping the breakers off, and then back on. Sometimes they'll look like they're on, but they're not actually.

Was your fridge plugged into the same circuit as these outlets? Is the fridge still working?

C
Deal Fanatic
Jul 4, 2004
7534 posts
792 upvotes
Toronto
kingtosh82 wrote: The outlets in one of the rooms of my basement stopped working. The only reason I can think something went wrong is because I had a fridge plugged in and maybe it overloaded the circuit or something (sorry for my lack of electrical vocabulary or knowledge...haha). I have an electrician coming to look at the issue on June 23rd. They charge a rate of $160 per hour, and then $60 per hour after that. I'm hoping that they can diagnose and fix the issue to prevent it from happening again.

1) Is that a fair price for an electrician?
1b) If that is not a fair price, can anyone recommend a good electrician at a better price?
2) What do you think the best and worst situation (in terms of cost) would be?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
That price is fair enough, but you didn't indicate how many hours the $160 covered. If it's only the first hour, then that's still OK - they just charge a $100 truck/rollout fee and that's pretty normal.

You can go poking around with a pen tester and try to figure out why that one outlet stopped working. Or just wait for the sparky to do it for you.
Member
Jan 27, 2013
434 posts
34 upvotes
Toronto
CNeufeld wrote: The price doesn't seem unreasonable. But before they show up... Have you checked the circuit breakers? You can also try flipping the breakers off, and then back on. Sometimes they'll look like they're on, but they're not actually.

Was your fridge plugged into the same circuit as these outlets? Is the fridge still working?

C
Thanks for the reply.

I haven't tried to flip the switch on/off.... I just saw that it was on, so I figured it was broken. Going to try that tonight.

My worry is that the switch isn't broken, and then when I plug the fridge back in that at some random time the circuit goes off again. I don't use that room in the basement that often so I don't want to check on a daily basis if the fridge has electricity or not.

How can I test to see if an outlet or circuit is supplying enough watts/amps sufficient enough to power my appliance?
Deal Fanatic
Jul 4, 2004
7534 posts
792 upvotes
Toronto
cactus5 wrote: Hi Folks,

I'm getting ready to rewire 8 aluminum circuits in my house (Ontario) which involves replacing quite a few metal boxes and I'd like to minimize the damage to drywall around switches and outlets during this process. I know single gang rework boxes are available that clamp directly to the drywall, but I'm not too keen on this approach especially for outlets where someone could yank on a cable. Also, I haven't been able to find any 2-gane or 3-gang rework boxes (there are some plastic ones in the US, but I haven't found any certified for Canada).

With that in mind, here are my questions:

1) I know 12-3010(5) says that nails or screws can "project into or pass through" a box if they are not more than 6.4mm from the "back or ends" of the box and will not interfere with conductors/connectors.

[INDENT]a) Knowing that all the boxes that I'm replacing will already be right beside a wood stud, is it acceptable to screw the new boxes to the stud from INSIDE the box from an angle (does that satisfy "project/pass through" above as the screw head will be inside the box and slightly angled)?[/INDENT]

[INDENT]b) In 12-3010(5) above, what does "ends of the box" mean? Is it referring to the corners between the side walls of the box? Some boxes have pre-drilled holes on the side walls, Can I assume these holes are always spaced to satisfy this rule?[/INDENT]

[INDENT]c) If I cannot screw from inside the box, is using construction adhesive to glue the box to the studs an option?[/INDENT]

[INDENT]d) If all else fails, I can use rework boxes for single gang boxes, but are there any other options for replacing multi-gang boxes that don't involve cutting holes in drywall?[/INDENT]

2) My current panel is old with no AFI breakers available (all 8 new circuits will need AFIs). Replacing the panel is problematic for a number of reasons so I plan to install a subpanel. Rule 8-108(2) requires two empty spots in a service panel. Does this apply to the new subpanel as well? That is, for 8 AFI circuits, will I need a panel with at least 10 spaces?

3) The largest breaker (compatible with my old panel) that I've been able to find for the sub panel feeder is 40amps. Will that be sufficient for 8 circuits (all general lighting and outlets - load calculation based on floor area gives ~2,000sqft/6,000watts which is closer to 50amps)?

4) I need 3 circuits in the upper level and I'm planning to run three cables from the basement to the attic along the ventilation stack and fish down into the rooms from there. Am I understanding table 5C correctly that I can simply run 3 14/2 cables for this, knowing that the cables will be touching/bundled the whole way up into the attic? (5C says 4-6 conductors must be de-rated to 80%, but each circuit is already limited to 12amps because of 8-304)?

Thanks in advance!
You can screw the box from inside, that's fine.

Use the biggest subpanel you can find at a reasonable cost. I don't know why you'd put yourself in a position of running out of room again. Bear in mind that any combination service entrance panel can be used as a subpanel as well by removing the bonding strap and the main breaker on it just becomes a disconnect switch. That may end up cheaper than buying a smaller subpanel given the breaker kits sold at big box stores. The value of those breakers makes the panel itself worth almost nothing in the package cost.

What panel do you have now? 40 amps is too small for a viable subpanel IMO. You should target 60 if you can which you can do with 4/3 aluminum to save wire cost.

I've seen way more than 3x 14/2 wires bundled together. You'll be fine with that no worries.
Deal Fanatic
Jul 4, 2004
7534 posts
792 upvotes
Toronto
kingtosh82 wrote: Thanks for the reply.

I haven't tried to flip the switch on/off.... I just saw that it was on, so I figured it was broken. Going to try that tonight.

My worry is that the switch isn't broken, and then when I plug the fridge back in that at some random time the circuit goes off again. I don't use that room in the basement that often so I don't want to check on a daily basis if the fridge has electricity or not.

How can I test to see if an outlet or circuit is supplying enough watts/amps sufficient enough to power my appliance?
15A is enough for pretty much any kitchen appliance, except for large stoves/ovens obviously. I don't think that's an issue unless the breaker is restricting current more than it should be, but then in that case it would trip....so there's a problem somewhere else. A loose connection somewhere most likely if the power goes on and off intermittently.

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