Entrepreneurship & Small Business

Advice of finishing off a competitor

  • Last Updated:
  • Jan 5th, 2010 8:42 am
Banned
May 29, 2007
1545 posts
10 upvotes
Kuurgen wrote: One thing, I need to clear up....I don't like that workers are disposable.
I don't agree with the OP's methodology, but he's not doing something thousands of corporations haven't already done.
Kuurgen,

With no auto dialer each employee was working 12-15 hours a week making on average 20 calls per hour which are said to take 10-15 seconds per call, and they were allowed to sit there and read.

With an auto-dialer there were 60 calls per hour.

I am not suggesting that an employer has no right to replace their employees with better trained or better skilled or even better performing workers. Or even cheaper ones where they see fit. That's not the issue.

My issue is with the incompetent management and I.T. staff who are following some sort of belief that they are actually doing a good job.

When you offer no incentive to your employees other than to keep their shifts with some sort of "scientific" performance based measurement, and you mindlessly plug people into a desk where they do nothing except make 10-15 second phone calls 20x during that shift. And then they claim that an automated service will be better in the end.

This is not really an issue of them firing everybody. This is an issue of management hiring way too many people to do a job. Under utilizing them, taking no responsibility for their actions, which I simply do not buy. Help Question is ********ting. Full of it. 100% wasting my time and yours with total ignorant crap.

The newer service only makes 60 calls per hour, there was never a gradual shift from 100-60 on site workers to the automated overseas service only. They could have easily cut their service to about 33 onsites and maintained quality and done real tests but they moved everything in one fell swoop and no doubt lost any ability to maintain service quality on their end.

It's tyrannical micro-management.

Come on... That's incompetence on Managements part. I am simply holding Help Questions accountable for their actions. They are either a liar;

Think really hard, 12-15 hours x 20 call per hour = 300 calls. You tell me how anyone can make money paying someone a minimum of 8.00 an hour or $120.00 per shift or $2.50 per address verification phone call. They are lying. It's pretty clear... I won't even get into how poorly structured their "performance" based scheduling is... (Just remember Help Questions changes his story and metrics where-ever he see fits as well... these numbers span several threads, all which mention the address verification system)

Or they are incompetent, and they can't even deliver properly on the IT side of thing. I prefer this option. Either way...

If you see it any other way. Please chime in and tell me why you feel that incompetent managers should screw people out of a job?

In any event, Help Questions should not feel proud of their accomplishment. They lost all their business to another company who could do it when they couldn't.

And it has nothing to do with labor costs. Give me a break. It has everything to do with Help Questions pushing their philosophy, or trying to somehow rationalize and justify it.
yes, we are creating lemmings. but that is because we need lemmings to work in this office. it is all part of the deskilling of labour. The company doesn't want loyal workers, or even full time workers......lemmings are fine
People like you are worse than Union reps. There is nothing about your skills or your training which couldn't be picked up by at least 1 out of the 60 employed there. They were all students correct? You're a student correct?

How is giving away all your services for free working out? Have you "finished" off the competition yet?
James - Programmer -
If it wasn't for GOOG, I'd be a communist. http://www.googlesux.com/ What couldn't you find on Baidu? http://www.baidu.com/
Deal Addict
Dec 13, 2007
2032 posts
546 upvotes
Toronto
MrGamma wrote: My issue is with the incompetent management and I.T. staff who are following some sort of belief that they are actually doing a good job.
What do you care, it's theirs business to run.

You know they still slaughter baby seals for fur? PETA needs your passion.
Deal Addict
Dec 13, 2007
2032 posts
546 upvotes
Toronto
MrGamma wrote: Think really hard, 12-15 hours x 20 call per hour = 300 calls. You tell me how anyone can make money paying someone a minimum of 8.00 an hour or $120.00 per shift or $2.50
Get some sleep man, you are not thinking straight.

300 calls for 2.50 per call for a total of $120? Does not seem odd to you? Cost per call is 120/300, not 300/120.
Banned
May 29, 2007
1545 posts
10 upvotes
slavka012 wrote: Get some sleep man, you are not thinking straight.

300 calls for 2.50 per call for a total of $120? Does not seem odd to you? Cost per call is 120/300, not 300/120.
Okay... whoops... 0.40 per phone call. And yes... the entire story is odd. That's the whole point. I don't buy it at all.

It doesn't add up...

20 phones calls which take 10-25 seconds each = 300 seconds or 5 minutes. That leaves about 14 hours and 59 minutes of under-utilization for a single staff member. No matter what Help Questions says there are gaping holes in thier story...
What do you care, it's theirs business to run.

You know they still slaughter baby seals for fur? PETA needs your passion.
I just don't get why this person thinks it's a smart move coming onto a forum and preaching the merits of "disposing" of people so they can pull out a fast contract and make off like a bandit...

PETA can eat it...
In the 905 office, it is different....the workers work more, get more hours, handle more complicated calls, get raises, bonuses and are not all on contract. For the type of work done out of the 416 office, the owner only wants disposable part-time lemmings to make calls.
Even statements like that... One second they are saying it's address verification and there are no sales involved and it takes no skill what-so-ever to perform the job, they read off the screen. Then the staff are performing phone calls which are obviously sales, of course after the auto-dialer is already plugged in.

They are full of ****... It's not my intention to tell this person how to run their business. I am simply convinced 100% they are trolling and taking everybody for a ride. I hate it...
What do you care, it's theirs business to run.
I hate dodgy people...

I really wish this forum would publish IP addresses at the very least. I cannot stand these anonymous formats anymore...
James - Programmer -
If it wasn't for GOOG, I'd be a communist. http://www.googlesux.com/ What couldn't you find on Baidu? http://www.baidu.com/
Deal Addict
Sep 10, 2007
2732 posts
1 upvote
MrGamma wrote: A) 20 phones calls which take 10-25 seconds each = 300 seconds or 5 minutes. That leaves about 14 hours and 59 minutes of under-utilization for a single staff member. No matter what Help Questions says there are gaping holes in thier story...

B) Even statements like that... One second they are saying it's address verification and there are no sales involved and it takes no skill what-so-ever to perform the job, they read off the screen. Then the staff are performing phone calls which are obviously sales, of course after the auto-dialer is already plugged in.
a) I should clarify this, as I see why it doesn't make sense to you.
yes they do 15-20 calls, but they also do many more attempts (calls such as "callback", "not home", "wrong number""). We don't bill for those calls, so they are not included in the 15-20 calls per hour figure

b) the 416 office exclusively does the address verification calls....consider it a division of labour.

in any case, I personally don't like the concept of disposable labour myself. As a student, I have been disposable labour in the past, and I have seen many family members and friends immigrate to Canada and juggle a slew of disposable jobs in conditions that make this place look like a top employer. I agree that is a problem of an exploitative nature....one that does create disposable labour.......but lets not call it disposable labour....lets call it what it is.....treating labour as a commodity. I don't feel that human beings should be treated as a commodity, but in today's business world, it is a reality. It is a problem cannot go away unless workers refuse to do the jobs.
Would you be willing to pay $58 more for an iPod produced in North America?

My Answer: NO. I get the same Ipod with the same functionality...where is the the benefit to me? As, I've said before, I will get more out of my $58 dollars by lighting it on fire, because it will produce heat. If I wipe my a$$ with that $58 dollars, I will need to buy less toilet paper. IF I buy the made in North America Ipod for $58 more, I get absolutely nothing more out of it.
Deal Addict
Dec 17, 2001
2497 posts
388 upvotes
Ajax
MrGamma wrote:
If you see it any other way. Please chime in and tell me why you feel that incompetent managers should screw people out of a job?
You'll have no disagreement from me, the only thing I was trying to say was that
this way of thinking, is not new. There are so many variations of this in other companies that it's commonplace.

There's always some idiot who thinks if they shave 5 seconds off a process
it amounts to higher profitability. It's like how you used to get ketchup without asking at fast food restaurants and now you have to ask. Some genius realized it would save XX amount by not just giving them out.

There's some people who apply this formula to workers, if we cut x people and make the remaining xx people work harder or whatever, we will save x.

I'm not disagreeing at all, help_questions has no qualms about treating workers like nuisances. He has such a high disregard for them which is apparent in each new idea he implements. Instead of trying to re-task a worker,(like the IT guy) he finds a reason just to eliminate them.

The thing he doesn't realize is word gets around and people start figuring it out if the company is constantly running want ads for new employees.
Deal Addict
Sep 10, 2007
2732 posts
1 upvote
Kuurgen wrote: You'll have no disagreement from me, the only thing I was trying to say was that
this way of thinking, is not new. There are so many variations of this in other companies that it's commonplace.

There's always some idiot who thinks if they shave 5 seconds off a process
it amounts to higher profitability. It's like how you used to get ketchup without asking at fast food restaurants and now you have to ask. Some genius realized it would save XX amount by not just giving them out.

There's some people who apply this formula to workers, if we cut x people and make the remaining xx people work harder or whatever, we will save x.

I'm not disagreeing at all, help_questions has no qualms about treating workers like nuisances. He has such a high disregard for them which is apparent in each new idea he implements. Instead of trying to re-task a worker,(like the IT guy) he finds a reason just to eliminate them.

The thing he doesn't realize is word gets around and people start figuring it out if the company is constantly running want ads for new employees.
this is a good post. I just want to add that I do have qualms about treating workers as a commodity, or a nuisance as you put it. Frankly it bothers me, and I am glad I am leaving this environment. Make no mistake, businesses ofter hire people to come in make cuts.....many don't care who gets cut......they just want cuts.....and just because I do I doesn't mean I like it. I absolutely defend the business logic of cutting costs, but as a person, I see more than just dollars and cents. Unfortunately, when you are hired to cut, cut, cut, you are only permitted to cut, cut , cut. I understand that some workers can be re-tasked, but the owner of the company would rather just let them go in an effort to operate with one less person. He would rather try to operate with one less person and find out that he need to hire, instead of re-tasking and not trying to operate with one less person. He strongly beliefs that he can achieve more with less and less and less......And since this is his methodology, I really cannot do much more than what I am told.
Would you be willing to pay $58 more for an iPod produced in North America?

My Answer: NO. I get the same Ipod with the same functionality...where is the the benefit to me? As, I've said before, I will get more out of my $58 dollars by lighting it on fire, because it will produce heat. If I wipe my a$$ with that $58 dollars, I will need to buy less toilet paper. IF I buy the made in North America Ipod for $58 more, I get absolutely nothing more out of it.
Banned
May 29, 2007
1545 posts
10 upvotes
superbundance wrote: help questions is messing with you guys... lol
Sure is... They are one of those people who preach a Utopian and attractive solution yet hold no liability or responsibility for their actions.

Spineless... jmo...
MrGamma wrote:If a company is bottlenecked and software can solve that solution and free people up... why throw them away? Why not get them working for the company? At least one or two of them. Again I am not in the call centre business, but I don't understand how firing nearly everybody is good move...
Help_Questions wrote:as noted above, the workers are not needed. Yes people are freed-up, but there is nothing for them to do....they have been replaced with technology.
They are thrown away because there is no longer a purpose for keeping them around. Why keep them around when IVR technology is fully capable of doing exactly what they do, but in a faster and cheaper manner? Please, tell me why
Oh... Understood now... Technology has fully replaced the workers. I had to re-read that one...
Help_Questions wrote:a) I should clarify this, as I see why it doesn't make sense to you. yes they do 15-20 calls, but they also do many more attempts (calls such as "callback", "not home", "wrong number""). We don't bill for those calls, so they are not included in the 15-20 calls per hour figure

b) the 416 office exclusively does the address verification calls....consider it a division of labour.
It all makes sense now...

60-100 people working 12-15 hour a week, making 10-15 second phone calls which cost 0.40 per call, at a rate of 15-20 calls per hour, they read books and play all day...

Oh yeah... and it's the cost of labor that's causing the problem. Wouldn't have anything to do with a crappy sales department would it?

I mean I am not in the call centre business, but you are giving away 30% of those $0.40 phone calls and putting the staff to work on mindless "callback", "not home", "wrong number" services which you don't bill for...

Thanks for clearing up that division of labor issue. for a second there I thought the 416 office was doing other stuff besides the address verification calls. I was wrong to think staff was somehow being underutilized... I mean they only have 14.5 hours of free time out of their 15 hour week. How did that performance based scheduling work out for you?
Help_Questions wrote:And since this is his methodology, I really cannot do much more than what I am told.
You can do what ever you want. You're the consultant.
Help_Questions wrote:We determine our top performers using a data analysis to determine which workers make us the most money per hour, and give them the shifts they want. We work the list from top to bottom, and as we progress through the list, less and less shifts remain available, to the point where those at or near the bottom, the lower performers, have limited shifts available, and often, shifts that they are not even available for. We do this to schedule the team of workers that will make the most money. It is a very effective model that has increased profits....and yes, I speak highly of this model because I designed it when my friend hired me to consult for his call center.

Of course, faster isn't always better, so we have to aggressively monitor call quality to ensure that people aren't blowing through calls to be the best.
How do you aggressively monitor workers who have been replaced entirely by a machine? How do you know the machine isn't blowing through the calls so fast to be the best?

Again, I am not in the call center business but I know ******** when I see it.

So if I want to buy an Ipod that's made in North America. Where do I find one?
James - Programmer -
If it wasn't for GOOG, I'd be a communist. http://www.googlesux.com/ What couldn't you find on Baidu? http://www.baidu.com/
Dec 31, 1969
I recall working in proxy voting for Georgeson Shareholder
http://www.georgesonshareholder.com/ and the auto dialer
calling shareholders and asking them if they would like to
vote along with the Board of Directors on the proposals.
Most reps got paid $11 hour no matter how many yes votes.
Each 2 minute call would dial in and bring up the shareholder info
on the computer and we would read the script over and over
and note the reply. Machine and mankind speeds up the
process. One call center closed a few years ago terminating
maybe 100+ customer service reps and some moved onto
other call centers for financial companies, Pizza Pizza, etc.
Georgeson was acquired by Computershare
http://www.computershare.com

Imelda O. Suzara
Acanac Rep
MrGamma wrote: Kuurgen,

With no auto dialer each employee was working 12-15 hours a week making on average 20 calls per hour which are said to take 10-15 seconds per call, and they were allowed to sit there and read.

With an auto-dialer there were 60 calls per hour.

I am not suggesting that an employer has no right to replace their employees with better trained or better skilled or even better performing workers. Or even cheaper ones where they see fit. That's not the issue.

My issue is with the incompetent management and I.T. staff who are following some sort of belief that they are actually doing a good job.

When you offer no incentive to your employees other than to keep their shifts with some sort of "scientific" performance based measurement, and you mindlessly plug people into a desk where they do nothing except make 10-15 second phone calls 20x during that shift. And then they claim that an automated service will be better in the end.

This is not really an issue of them firing everybody. This is an issue of management hiring way too many people to do a job. Under utilizing them, taking no responsibility for their actions, which I simply do not buy. Help Question is ********ting. Full of it. 100% wasting my time and yours with total ignorant crap.

The newer service only makes 60 calls per hour, there was never a gradual shift from 100-60 on site workers to the automated overseas service only. They could have easily cut their service to about 33 onsites and maintained quality and done real tests but they moved everything in one fell swoop and no doubt lost any ability to maintain service quality on their end.

It's tyrannical micro-management.

Come on... That's incompetence on Managements part. I am simply holding Help Questions accountable for their actions. They are either a liar;

Think really hard, 12-15 hours x 20 call per hour = 300 calls. You tell me how anyone can make money paying someone a minimum of 8.00 an hour or $120.00 per shift or $2.50 per address verification phone call. They are lying. It's pretty clear... I won't even get into how poorly structured their "performance" based scheduling is... (Just remember Help Questions changes his story and metrics where-ever he see fits as well... these numbers span several threads, all which mention the address verification system)

Or they are incompetent, and they can't even deliver properly on the IT side of thing. I prefer this option. Either way...

If you see it any other way. Please chime in and tell me why you feel that incompetent managers should screw people out of a job?

In any event, Help Questions should not feel proud of their accomplishment. They lost all their business to another company who could do it when they couldn't.

And it has nothing to do with labor costs. Give me a break. It has everything to do with Help Questions pushing their philosophy, or trying to somehow rationalize and justify it.



People like you are worse than Union reps. There is nothing about your skills or your training which couldn't be picked up by at least 1 out of the 60 employed there. They were all students correct? You're a student correct?

How is giving away all your services for free working out? Have you "finished" off the competition yet?
Deal Guru
User avatar
Sep 3, 2003
13027 posts
2269 upvotes
Toronto
This topic should be renamed the help_questions coming out thread. It's easy one of the best resources for this new-age extremist philosophy.
Deal with it.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Oct 27, 2008
6964 posts
65 upvotes
Ottawa
MrGamma wrote: Buddy... you're the lemming... in fact... you're responsible for breeding lemming culture. You're a lemming creating more lemmings.
Does that make him Queen Lemming?
help_questions wrote: yes, we are creating lemmings. but that is because we need lemmings to work in this office. it is all part of the deskilling of labour.
I remember when you stated that yor employees were not an asset, and were not really necessary. And yet here you affirm that they are actually needed. So which is it? Do you need the lemmings, or do you function just as well without them? If you function just as well without them, then why bother keeping any? And if you cannot, then why do you not view them as an asset.

And the way you keep saying things like "The employees want to be paid less so they can get more hours" doesn't make sense. THe whole reading/playing PSP thing makes no sense. The way you keep preaching about these crappy "benefits", the more you make it sound like these people are viewing reading & playing PSP as such a huge benefit, that they don't need money, they would come in just so they can study. Which is a load of crap and you know it.

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