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Anyone else have trouble finding a good salary in programming?

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Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2009
2307 posts
213 upvotes
Toronto
Mark77 wrote: Well you have RFD as a forum in which you could post your job -- I would certainly challenge you to that, since we have a lot of CS types here.
Go to any job posting sites and it's easy to find a lot of job postings, I like to keep my personal / professional real life separate from my online activities - so I am not posting anything that points back at who I am.
Mark77 wrote: And in the interests of professionalism and letting talent know their deficiencies, you really should be replying to all applicants that at least disclose professional qualifications.
I am not everyone's baby sitter to tell them what they need to know. I reply to everyone I interviewed, even when they don't succeed.
Mark77 wrote: It is quite clear that IT jobs are few and far between in Canada, but by all means, if you and your company are so desperate for people, throw up a job ad and help some RFD'ers (and your company) out. Preferably include a HR contact name and phone number.
You have no evidence to back up "few and far between" - like I said, just google dev job in Toronto, or go to LinkedIn and search - there are TONS of postings.
and no, we are by no mean desperate to hire. I would rather not make hire than making desperate hiring decisions, I am not hiring just any code monkey off the street.
flafson wrote: Not trying to be dramatic, just the reality. Employers 95% of the time don't want to give any kind of chance without 1-2 years experience in the specific job they want to hire for. For new grads (like myself) it becomes very difficult to find someone who will be willing to take a chance on me. I have experience doing IT but nothing programming related and so far nobody is willing to give me a chance for entry level positions. Seems (to me at least) that the only positions that someone will hire me are for intern jobs.
Like I said - you are competing against new grad with 2+ years of experience. The onus is on you to be competitive.
Things are actually a lot more open these days, you have a lot more avenues to showcase your skills - app store are wide open, anybody can have a website, you can volunteer on non-profit projects (I did that)
Mark77 wrote: Yeah its disgusting, isn't it? damnos claims that having an internship is so much better,
it is much better when you have an experience, it's as simple as that. It's not a claim, it's a fact.

Mark77 wrote: but his company is arbitrarily discarding a huge quantum of talent simply based on a screening criteria that has absolutely no bearing on the ability to program.
Do you even know how we screen? What made you say my screening criteria discard talents?
I just mentioned to you I only had ~15 applicants to the position ... where are all these people who are qualified but looking for job that you kept mentioning?

Again - while you, Mark77, come up with this random assertions and numbers - there are people like myself who are actually going through it and experiencing it in real life.
Mark77 wrote:
And seriously, testing Java syntax over the phone or even at an interview on some sort of coding test?
Where did I ever say I tested Java syntax over the phone?

This is what I said for reference:
damnos wrote: Nope, most of the interview questions can easily be answered regardless of programming language. You do need to show that you are capable of writing Java codes (or at least easily pick it up) though, because at the end of the day that's what the company is using.
People make mistakes writing code on the white board, I don't care about the small details.
But if you don't even know what are primitive variables, or what an object is, there's an issue. (just an example, not my actual questions)

And to be honest, the job description clearly mention Java as our programming language, if you spend 5-10 minutes googling "Java interview questions", you can ace phone interviews easily. There's only so much you can ask on the phone.
Mark77 wrote: Then again, with so much of a glut, they obviously get away with it, but lots of applicants are left in the dark as to why they weren't called.
glut? 15 applicants are "glut" ? ... lol.

It's simple ...
if your resume don't get response, your resume is not good enough
if your interview didn't get through, means your resume is good enough to get employer interested, but your interview skills are lacking (or your technical skills are lacking)

What I am looking for may not be what the next employer looking for ... so there's no point for me to tell them specific things that they don't have that made me not screen them, they could very well have other skills that are not applicable to my position but another employer will be looking for.

When the job posting is clearly about web/mobile software development, and you only have hardware experience - you are not a fit, it's dead simple.
Deal Guru
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Mar 1, 2004
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Pickering
Interesting link ^^. Don't know how accurate it is, but if it is, other people that do a similar job are getting paid way less than me.
Newbie
Jun 21, 2009
10 posts
I don't know what kind of top grads Mark is referring to, but the people I know who I would consider to be top grads are getting terrific offers fresh out of school, higher than Toronto's 90th percentile by damnos' info. All of them had experience from intern/coop.
Don't know about waterloo, but some of the people I see graduating are just incompetent. If you didn't do any coop/intern, didn't do any non-trivial side projects or less than stellar grades, chances are not slim that you are in this group.

Just my anecdote.
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Mar 30, 2010
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Greater Toronto Area
AudiDude wrote: Interesting link ^^. Don't know how accurate it is, but if it is, other people that do a similar job are getting paid way less than me.
take a look at the number of people reporting and you'll get an idea of how accurate it is. that chart is pretty meaningless considering how biased and skewed it could be.
RichmondCA wrote: Leading indicator on bear market, when you see this avatar start popping up in this thread
Member
May 17, 2011
306 posts
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GVRD
You should feel special then Audidude.

I echo that those 50 percentile numbers look about right for someone fresh out of school, around 50-60k. Not crazy amount of money but not pocket change either and if you're good then expect promotions or snapped up by recruiters after a few years of work experience.

There's quite a few tech jobs and tech companies here, just don't expect Silicon Valley type of salaries. Why do you think companies like Facebook and Amazon setup shop here? Talent for cheap(er).

That being said, there are TONS of opportunities out there!

http://www.bctechnology.com/statics/employmt.cfm

Quite a few tech companies here hiring. Sage, PMC, Telus, MDA, ICBC, Ericsson, EA, McKesson, Boeing, Net App, Best Buy, Fujitsu, Schneider Electric, HootSuite, Sierra Wireless, Samsung, Layer 7 are just some of the many many tech related companies in BC.

http://www.techjobsvancouver.com
or
http://indeed.com
shows some 800+ "software developer" related positions versus 250 or so "accountant" positions that RFD loves to go after.

I think if you're having trouble getting any opportunities, it's either you're applying to something you're not qualified for or you are being very very picky with your expectations.

Again, salaries in Vancouver aren't great but not unreasonable either and the jobs are there for the right candidates.
Newbie
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Mar 17, 2014
82 posts
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Aznsilvrboy wrote: Since this thread is about salaries. How much does your company pay for junior devs?
Apologies for jumping in ... I have a few friends in the mobile software industry. I have been told jr dev types (w/ 1.5+ years of experience, including co-op/internship/PEY exp) can start in the low-mid 60s base. This is according to two companies that I know of where my friends work.
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Mar 17, 2014
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damnos wrote:
...

I also have a friend in Toronto who's working remotely for a start up in Vancouver ... chatted with the founder and she said she just can't find good enough people in Vancouver. The talent pool in Toronto has more options.
Right now there seems to be a huge demand for early-to-mid career types (3-7 years of exp) in certain industries like mobile, security and 'big data'. I have heard of companies even hiring from overseas to fill these spots but this may be for the more slightly senior roles (5+ years of exp).

I haven't been following the job market that closely in recent years but I get the feeling there is a surplus of jobs and not enough talent in Canada.

I think it really depends on the career path though. If I had to choose between a developer-focused applicant (someone that has worked on a wide range of projects with a breadth of skills) vs. an industry-focused applicant (someone that has worked on very specific types of projects), I would hire the latter. Industry specialization is the key!
Newbie
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Mar 17, 2014
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Companies want the FULL package these days. To be competitive, you must have a CS/IT/CE/EE degree or something relevant from a top university (and a masters or PhD as icing on the cake) with 5 years of relevant experience (if you are applying for a role requiring at least 5 years) in at least 2, 3 or more well known leading, preferably multinational, companies in their fields. Your background must show a clear career progression - sitting in one position for 5-10 years in one company is career suicide.
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2009
2307 posts
213 upvotes
Toronto
AudiDude wrote: Interesting link ^^. Don't know how accurate it is, but if it is, other people that do a similar job are getting paid way less than me.
"Similar job" - Software development has very wide range of skills and industries ... the range is pretty accurate (although I think the low end is a bit low, but the mid to top range is quite accurate). Some people would be paid more than that, it happens, not uncommon.
surasak wrote: I don't know what kind of top grads Mark is referring to, but the people I know who I would consider to be top grads are getting terrific offers fresh out of school, higher than Toronto's 90th percentile by damnos' info. All of them had experience from intern/coop.
Again, not surprising / uncommon
dc200 wrote: take a look at the number of people reporting and you'll get an idea of how accurate it is. that chart is pretty meaningless considering how biased and skewed it could be.
Are you even in the industry or know anything about the field?
That range is quite accurate. There will be outliers, and frankly it won't be surprising for people to get more than that. There are also a lot of start ups that pay in that range but you get stock options on top of it.
mofesto wrote: In the US I would be a fit to work with the biggest players like Facebook, Amazon, Google
I challenge you to try them.
There's Amazon in Toronto, Google in Kitchener ... there's HootSuite in Vancouver.

See if you can actually even pass their phone interview and see if you can actually pass their whole hiring process and get an offer.

It's easy to say "I think I would be a fit" - words are meaningless. Prove yourself. Even if you don't want to take the job or relocate, just try and see if you can get an offer.
flatwhite wrote: I have been told jr dev types (w/ 1.5+ years of experience, including co-op/internship/PEY exp) can start in the low-mid 60s base. This is according to two companies that I know of where my friends work.
Again, completely doable for the right people.
flatwhite wrote: Companies want the FULL package these days. To be competitive, you must have a CS/IT/CE/EE degree or something relevant from a top university (and a masters or PhD as icing on the cake) with 5 years of relevant experience (if you are applying for a role requiring at least 5 years) in at least 2, 3 or more well known leading, preferably multinational, companies in their fields. Your background must show a clear career progression - sitting in one position for 5-10 years in one company is career suicide.
Yeah ... NO ...
Experience in start ups (the good ones) are highly valuable in dev industry. Master or PhD is nice, but experience in still king. There's also opportunities to do independent work - involvement in open source projects, release your own app, etc ... all are valued experience
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2009
2307 posts
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Toronto
mofesto wrote: Well, I'm a front end web developer with 5 years experience. HTML5, CSS3/SaSS, JavaScript (jQuery, AJAX, JSON), and a host of other experience, like back-end (PHP, MySQL, Lithium, MongoDB), frameworks (WordPress, Joomla, CakePHP, CodeIgniter),
to be honest, those skills are quite average, if not limited, there are TONS of people who have those skill set ... also, on average, front end developer will get paid less than back end developer.

Knowing how to write codes that work is one thing, knowing the details of how code works, how it affects performance, how much memory it takes, optimization, writing re-usable, clean code, etc etc is a whole set of different skills. Do you know if your solution takes O(n²) or O(n)? can you optimize it to be O(log n)?

Like I said - try if you can actually even score an interview with Facebook, Amazon, or Google.
Or here, try HootSuite: https://hootsuite.com/careers - they are in Vancouver, so you have no excuses of not being able to attend interview, and they have a job posting looking for front end developer.

It's easy to say everybody makes $100k+ in RFD, we know what the reality is like. Don't just say you are good, prove it.
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Mar 30, 2010
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Greater Toronto Area
damnos wrote: Are you even in the industry or know anything about the field?
That range is quite accurate. There will be outliers, and frankly it won't be surprising for people to get more than that. There are also a lot of start ups that pay in that range but you get stock options on top of it.
if you're actually convinced that there's absolutely zero bias and/or skew in that chart, then you're a very gullible person.
RichmondCA wrote: Leading indicator on bear market, when you see this avatar start popping up in this thread
Deal Guru
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Mar 1, 2004
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Pickering
dc200 wrote: take a look at the number of people reporting and you'll get an idea of how accurate it is. that chart is pretty meaningless considering how biased and skewed it could be.
noreason wrote: You should feel special then Audidude.

I echo that those 50 percentile numbers look about right for someone fresh out of school, around 50-60k. Not crazy amount of money but not pocket change either and if you're good then expect promotions or snapped up by recruiters after a few years of work experience.

There's quite a few tech jobs and tech companies here, just don't expect Silicon Valley type of salaries. Why do you think companies like Facebook and Amazon setup shop here? Talent for cheap(er).

That being said, there are TONS of opportunities out there!

http://www.bctechnology.com/statics/employmt.cfm

Quite a few tech companies here hiring. Sage, PMC, Telus, MDA, ICBC, Ericsson, EA, McKesson, Boeing, Net App, Best Buy, Fujitsu, Schneider Electric, HootSuite, Sierra Wireless, Samsung, Layer 7 are just some of the many many tech related companies in BC.

http://www.techjobsvancouver.com
or
http://indeed.com
shows some 800+ "software developer" related positions versus 250 or so "accountant" positions that RFD loves to go after.

I think if you're having trouble getting any opportunities, it's either you're applying to something you're not qualified for or you are being very very picky with your expectations.

Again, salaries in Vancouver aren't great but not unreasonable either and the jobs are there for the right candidates.
Well, I don't do software and being a technician, there are a few different skill sets that are not required by someone that does a job, such as programmer. If you were the best programmer in the world, you can get paid the world, if you were the best technician in the word, but had a bad personality, heck even if you smell bad, you won't be going to an office to troubleshoot a multi million dollar network, and that limitation will cost you.

I chose this job because I knew that there are a lot of people who could learn programming, but have the personality of a piece of cardboard, can't hammer a nail in straight, or they study to know how to use tools (software or hardware), but don't understand how they work and have poor analytical troubleshooting ability.

This thins the heard quickly. I do know what the competition pays and I am close to the top. All the top spots are occupied by old timers. The industry has done what everybody else has done and created new lower paying entry tiers with a slower climb to a new lower max rate. I can make another $20k per year, but I don't care for that position and I also believe that they will have to create another higher paying position, that I would prefer, to attract and retain smarter talent. Every year the job gets more complex and the things that used to be special have new tech overshadowing them and you aren't dropping one tech for another, you are adding it. The old tech you used to stretch to understand MUST become second nature to you for you to begin to understand new tech.

As we add complexity, it is like a marathon and people drop out as their capacity is reached. There is a capacity only for those who don't understand how to be evolutionary and constantly learn and most people learn by repetition only because they don't understand the fundamentals. This is a job they may eventually get let go for incompetence.

I've heard this about many other jobs but I can say that out of 100 people about 10-12 get it, and the rest don't. I can tell you that if a programmer screws up an entire platform, they never get blamed, I do, as I am the last person touching it and the most visible. Eventually I must come in from the field and sort out whether the hardware was configured wrong or the software sucks and I NEVER get thanked because I have to ruffle feathers to do so. I'd like to do more, but I am not willing to sell my other skill sets for a couple of dollars more per hour or be responsible for doing part of someone else's job for the same pay.

Because the entry rate of pay is lower and the climb to the lower tier top is higher and everything is becoming more complex, employee churn is high. Sure it's a cool job when you are 19-24, but when you realize you are going to be 32 by the time you reach max pay and the job is increasing in complexity monthly, you leave. When experience leaves, who passes on the knowledge to the new guys? Soon, nobody that should, will want the job, and it will be full of people just looking for a paycheque and some really experienced people and a huuuuge gap in knowledge between them. You can't expect to pay them the same.
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2009
2307 posts
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Toronto
dc200 wrote: if you're actually convinced that there's absolutely zero bias and/or skew in that chart, then you're a very gullible person.
bias? ... sure it's a self-reporting data, there will be a bias.
But that range is quite accurate.

Go look at job postings and figure out how much they pay, talk to recruiters and see how much their think a new grad would get ... their answer would roughly be in the same range.

Again - outliers happen. We hired a new grad (1 year off school) above the range I posted recently because he was really good.
And there's always that new grad who got hired by Google right off school with $100k pay ... it happens, nothing too surprising.

Does not mean the range is not accurate as an average data.

Glassdoor: http://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/toront ... KO8,17.htm
[IMG]http://s21.postimg.org/sr4ysf9lj/salary.png[/IMG]

The average is a bit high because it includes outliers $100k+ as well as it includes junior, intermediate, senior, etc

Robert Half: http://s3.amazonaws.com/DBM/M3/2011/Dow ... T_2014.pdf - generally on the higher end of the scale, but it's also mix up all experience range.
[IMG]http://s10.postimg.org/6efnby6u1/salary.png[/IMG]

Could it be that all these salary surveys are wrong, or do you simply don't know what the market pays dc200?
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May 2, 2006
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Cannot speak for Vancouver, but there are jobs available in Toronto. You have to be good though as competition is very healthy.

If you're in web/mobile development, it is crucial to have an online resume/portfolio that demonstrates proficiency in skills you listed as well as understanding of usability/accessibility guidelines and principles. For software development, you must have a good understanding of algorithm design/optimization/testing, object oriented design/patterns, complex data structures and relational database design. It is more important to be able to demonstrate these specific skills than "experience in HTML5/CSS, frameworks, etc." as it shows that you're able to write robust and scalable code.
Deal Expert
Oct 6, 2005
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damnos wrote: My company is hiring for junior dev position (~2 years experience, co-op experience included), so practically new grad position. We've posted in several websites and I've got ~15 resumes or so, 70% of them don't even get a reply because they are no good, 60% of the phone interview show they don't even know the basic programming knowledge.
You're hiring a junior programmer, can't expect much. Saying that, what schools are you targeting with your postings? Waterloo has a good job board, but the best students only apply for the US high-tech companies. However, there's still a decent pool of talent left over.




However to the OP, programming is not a long term career for the sane person - outsourcing and the influx of new talent make it a meat grinder. Hours are long, pay is low, there are better fields/jobs to focus your energies on in technology.
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Mar 10, 2006
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mofesto wrote: Well, I'm a front end web developer with 5 years experience. HTML5, CSS3/SaSS, JavaScript (jQuery, AJAX, JSON), and a host of other experience, like back-end (PHP, MySQL, Lithium, MongoDB), frameworks (WordPress, Joomla, CakePHP, CodeIgniter), I can even create UI designs/wireframes and some graphic design. I actually taught myself everything, I didn't go to school for this, I've been doing it since 1996 (wow, 18 years now... and I'm how old, 27?) In the US I would be a fit to work with the biggest players like Facebook, Amazon, Google. There's no opportunity like that here. I got offers for $55,000. I'm like, "for $55,000 I'm not even going to get out of bed". Junior positions/salaries for senior experience. If I had gone into plumbing/welding after high school, by now I would be making $95,000+. I know a guy going out for a few weeks north, he's making $30,000 for the month. Fully paid travel, lodging, food, and $150 a day spending cash. And for some reason, I don't think that would have been as difficult as learning 20+ languages and frameworks. Working through the horrors of Internet Explorer display issues. Would have been a hell of a lot more fun going places instead of being stuck in front of a computer starring at pixels all day, and coming home to $95K a year.
So you applied for a position at Facebook, Amazon, and Google, and you were offered a job? How are you so sure?
$55K is not high for 5+ year experienced developer, but it is not that unreasonable either.
It sounds more to me that you don't even like working in front of a computer at all. Why don't you follow that guy's route while you are still young and single (I assume? A typical married man would do anything to earn $55K rather than staying in bed).
Deal Addict
Nov 1, 2009
2646 posts
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Yes, us Waterloo grads are l33t.

HIGH FIVE BROTHER!!

Seriously though, this is just the reality of the world. If you a high school kid trying to figure out where to go, don't go anywhere else for CS/CE other than Waterloo and UofT. It's a tough market and companies really only go to those schools b/c it's easy for them in establishing a base standard. Don't get me wrong - there can be great programmers coming out of other schools, but it's just that much harder for them to break the ranks.. If they do get a 2-3 years behind them at a good organization, they'll be fine.

I still remember a buddy of mine in 1st year at Waterloo. 19 year old kid applying for jobs after 8 months of school. 16 interviews - 15 job offers, including the job at Microsoft (he walked into the other one late - pending offer). Legendary 1st term coop run by him. LOL
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Feb 20, 2008
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surasak wrote: I don't know what kind of top grads Mark is referring to, but the people I know who I would consider to be top grads are getting terrific offers fresh out of school, higher than Toronto's 90th percentile by damnos' info. All of them had experience from intern/coop.
Don't know about waterloo, but some of the people I see graduating are just incompetent. If you didn't do any coop/intern, didn't do any non-trivial side projects or less than stellar grades, chances are not slim that you are in this group.

Just my anecdote.
Mark thinks that his personal anecdote is what is happening across the whole country. He's never answered why hundreds of other graduates in the past ten years have been able to get positions, but he hasn't. Mark thinks that engineering graduates are owed a job on a silver platter. He ignores his blatant psychological issues that, if treated, would have vastly improved his hirability. And let's not get into his casual racism and bizarre interactions with human resources.

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