LF: Deals on Efficient Windows (for a house)

[crazyboie]

Hey All,
I tried doing a search for windows but that just brought up a zillion computer topics so...

My buddy just recently bought a house and needs to replace all the windows. He lives in the Whitby (Ajax/Pickering, etc just outside Toronto area) and would like to know if anyone had recently had their windows replaced? He'd like to get the efficient kind that save on energy costs.

The prices are pretty steep with one window costing about $2200 to replace and this being his first house purchase, any money he saves would help.

Does anybody have any recommendations or some general rules-of-thumb? Any info would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks,

[crazyboie]

No windows experts here? :confused:

[Bishop8]

Sorry, I'm kind of in the same boat (out here in Vancouver).

If your friend hasn't done so already, I'd recommend that he register with this federal government programme that rebates you for making your home more energy efficient. It kind of goes like this:

- pay this assessment company (from a list of government-approved suppliers) $100 to provide a detailed assessment of your home's energy efficiency. Their report lists what they recommend you do to your home to improve efficiency (i.e. furnace, windows, etc.) and how much more efficient your home will be.
- you have 18 months to do any reno work on the list.
- after you're done, you have the same company come back and re-evaluate your home (part of the original $100 fee).
- based on the estimated effiicency increase, the feds will give you up to $3,000 back.

Here's the link (click on energy efficiency grant):

http://oee.rncan.gc.ca/houses-maisons/english/homeowners/whyenerguide/whyenerguide.cfm?PrintView=N&Text=N

[hammer]

Sorry, I'm kind of in the same boat (out here in Vancouver).

If your friend hasn't done so already, I'd recommend that he register with this federal government programme that rebates you for making your home more energy efficient. It kind of goes like this:

- pay this assessment company (from a list of government-approved suppliers) $100 to provide a detailed assessment of your home's energy efficiency. Their report lists what they recommend you do to your home to improve efficiency (i.e. furnace, windows, etc.) and how much more efficient your home will be.
- you have 18 months to do any reno work on the list.
- after you're done, you have the same company come back and re-evaluate your home (part of the original $100 fee).
- based on the estimated effiicency increase, the feds will give you up to $3,000 back.

Here's the link (click on energy efficiency grant):

http://oee.rncan.gc.ca/houses-maisons/english/homeowners/whyenerguide/whyenerguide.cfm?PrintView=N&Text=N


After my assessment, I found that replacing windows will only decrease 24% the cost of heating. To me that is only $250 a year. Considering they are asking for $7000 for my windows, it would take close to 30 years to get my money back. Is this worth it? Anyone?

[pluto]

check out www.windowwise.ca

we got our windows replaced a few months ago by Brock Home Improvements based out of Brampton, the product is manufactured by North Star Mfg. who are near London, ON.... I looked at some of the tests performed by the govt. and they performed near the top. Brock did a pretty good job on the install.

will post some more links later, gotta run.

[woof]

Considering that the price of energy will keep going up in the years ahead, that 30 year payback may improve considerably in time.

New windows can add to the appearance of the house and to your enjoyment of living there. They can also help increase the value of the house if he eventually sells. A lot depends though on what the current condition of the windows is.

The suggestion of going for a government grant is a good idea.

[hammer]

check out www.windowwise.ca

we got our windows replaced a few months ago by Brock Home Improvements based out of Brampton, the product is manufactured by North Star Mfg. who are near London, ON.... I looked at some of the tests performed by the govt. and they performed near the top. Brock did a pretty good job on the install.

will post some more links later, gotta run.


Thanks for the tip. If you are bored, could you post some pics of one or 2 windows?

[feminazi]

This is kind of time sensitive, because I have to decide by next Thursday.

Our home is going to be built with double glazed (paned) single hung windows according to the builder's standard features.

I asked how much it would be to upgrade to low-e coated windows that are argon filled. I was told it would be a bit over 900 dollars.

From what I have read, double glazed windows have an R value of roughly 2. Double glazed, low-e coated windows filled with argon have an R value of somewhere between 3.3 and 4.1, a substantial improvement.

Does it look like this will make a difference of a couple hundred dollars a year or less?

For 900 dollars or so more, the payoff time should be around 5 years, and they will be more comfortable.

What do you guys think!?

[Jono]

The financial payback of window upgrades is never usually a strong argument. A 5 year payback is actually pretty good. Another factor to consider is the sound proofing quality of a better insulated window - something to consider if your neighbour's air conditioner is right outside your bedroom window, or if there is a lot of traffic on your street.

I have just signed a contract to replace all my windows in my 15 year old house, and if the original owner had spent an extra $900 for better insulated windows back then, I probably would not be replacing them right now.

[feminazi]

900 bucks doesn't seem like much to upgrade all the windows and the patio door in the house, does it?

Comfort is the big factor I imagine, and the payoff period, even if it is more than 5 years, is not a big issue, I think you are right.

[CSK'sMom]

We just had all our windows replaced in our 16 year old home. We had Vinylbilt windows installed, the premium series. The premium series have 1 inch thermal spacers instead of the standard 1/2 inch spacers. They are also low e glass and argon filled along with the "clean glass" technology. Our new windows also slightly tint when the sun hits them, a huge selling feature in a east/west facing house. The other huge factor in us choosing Vinylbilt is the lifetime warranty that is tranferable if we sell the house. :)

feminazi, definitely upgrade the windows if you can afford to! In our subdivision the houses are 16 years old. Every house has windows that the seal has gone so the windows are fogged between the panes and collect water in them. In some of the houses, seals went in windows within 6 years! Because the seals are gone folks are now have mold issues. Good windows are worth every penny IMO.

[feminazi]

http://oee.rncan.gc.ca/residential/personal/windows-doors.cfm?attr=4

This is a very useful section of the same energy efficiency website that was quoted earlier for energy rebates. In one page It mentions as well that;

"High-performance windows, described in the next section, offer other benefits too–better comfort levels, less condensation problems and lower sound transmission. While these benefits are not something you can readily put in the bank, they may be important to consider as you make your decision."

http://oee.rncan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/pub/renovate/Consumers_Guide_EE_Windows_Section06.cfm?attr=4

Good reading for anyone upgrading windows, or considering upgrading windows with a new home builder such as myself!

I am almost positive that we are going to do it. The price is not a big deal considering they add to comfort, resale, and reduce energy costs! Thanks for everyone's advice!

[feminazi]

http://oee.rncan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/pub/renovate/Consumers_Guide_EE_Windows_Section08.cfm?Text=N&PrintView=N

This article talks about the benefits. It says you can get 9-18% savings per year by going to low-e and argon filled windows over standard double glazed windows.

They give the example of $150 a year, which would mean approximatey a ~6 year payoff for me. Not bad, and it could be a bit better or a bit worse.

Etc. etc, higher comfort, higher humidity without condensation, etc. etc.

[hammer]

We just had all our windows replaced in our 16 year old home. We had Vinylbilt windows installed, the premium series. The premium series have 1 inch thermal spacers instead of the standard 1/2 inch spacers. They are also low e glass and argon filled along with the "clean glass" technology. Our new windows also slightly tint when the sun hits them, a huge selling feature in a east/west facing house. The other huge factor in us choosing Vinylbilt is the lifetime warranty that is tranferable if we sell the house. :)

feminazi, definitely upgrade the windows if you can afford to! In our subdivision the houses are 16 years old. Every house has windows that the seal has gone so the windows are fogged between the panes and collect water in them. In some of the houses, seals went in windows within 6 years! Because the seals are gone folks are now have mold issues. Good windows are worth every penny IMO.


Just wondering how many windows and how much as well as any grants?

[CSK'sMom]

Hammer, we replaced 8 windows in total. Five double hungs and three double sliders. We signed the contract while our local dealer was running a promo. The platinum series windows were 30% off if you bought 6 or more. We ended up getting our windows for less than the cost of the standard, lowerend windows. With tax in, our 8 windows were $2500.00 . We talked to one of the companies that does the testing for the grants and they told us not to bother in our case. Because our house is only 16 years old with great insulation we wouldn't qualify for the grants at all.

[feminazi]

Was that the installed price? The installed price must have been a lot higher than that, right?

[CSK'sMom]

feminazi, that was the installed price including all capping and replacing any rotten wood (which there wasn't).

[feminazi]

Wow, it sounds like you got a smoking deal on those windows if that was the installed price!

[pluto]

http://directories.csa-international.org

search under the building products and materials category, keyword Windows and put in your province (most likely you will buy from an in-province mfg)

as you will see many of the common window makes have not submitted for testing by the CSA. North Star (the one we went with) publishes their test results on their own website

I paid $3234 incl. GST for 5 full frame replacements (the only way to it IMO), two single sliders for the front bedrooms (look much nicer than double sliders on the front of the house - screen only on one half), one BIG double slider for the master bedroom at the back of the house (need double slider for cleaning there - window is 2 stories off the ground), a small single slider in the downstairs bathroom and a fixed hallway window. We got the ivory exterior finish to match our vinyl siding, argon fill, 'activ' self cleaning glass. We did not opt for the Double Low "E" Glass, if you do some reading you will find it is a good thing in VERY hot climates (like Arizona) but in Ontario in the winter it stops too much heat from coming into your house on sunny days.

All our side sliders are lift out BTW, which not many mfg.'s offer - having the lift out eliminates the stress on the window frame that the pivot points of 'tilt out' sliders - not an issue if you are young and healthy and can lift a reasonable weight. They are also more efficient if I recall correctly.

I did a lot of shopping around and talking to different companies, I'm happy with my choice so far.

[warpdryv]

This is kind of time sensitive, because I have to decide by next Thursday.

Our home is going to be built with double glazed (paned) single hung windows according to the builder's standard features.

I asked how much it would be to upgrade to low-e coated windows that are argon filled. I was told it would be a bit over 900 dollars.

From what I have read, double glazed windows have an R value of roughly 2. Double glazed, low-e coated windows filled with argon have an R value of somewhere between 3.3 and 4.1, a substantial improvement.

Does it look like this will make a difference of a couple hundred dollars a year or less?

For 900 dollars or so more, the payoff time should be around 5 years, and they will be more comfortable.

What do you guys think!?

upgrade to low e and argon for sure - that's a great price. even if you don't save the $ back in 3 years, you will have more comfortable living conditions. best upgrade though would be to casement windows all around. the screens are inside so they don't get so dirty, they're much more break-in resistant, and many are easier to clean. they also seal better than any slider - keeps the noise and the outside weather out. also consider the windows with the self-cleaning coating.

[hammer]

http://directories.csa-international.org

search under the building products and materials category, keyword Windows and put in your province (most likely you will buy from an in-province mfg)

as you will see many of the common window makes have not submitted for testing by the CSA. North Star (the one we went with) publishes their test results on their own website

I paid $3234 incl. GST for 5 full frame replacements (the only way to it IMO), two single sliders for the front bedrooms (look much nicer than double sliders on the front of the house - screen only on one half), one BIG double slider for the master bedroom at the back of the house (need double slider for cleaning there - window is 2 stories off the ground), a small single slider in the downstairs bathroom and a fixed hallway window. We got the ivory exterior finish to match our vinyl siding, argon fill, 'activ' self cleaning glass. We did not opt for the Double Low "E" Glass, if you do some reading you will find it is a good thing in VERY hot climates (like Arizona) but in Ontario in the winter it stops too much heat from coming into your house on sunny days.

All our side sliders are lift out BTW, which not many mfg.'s offer - having the lift out eliminates the stress on the window frame that the pivot points of 'tilt out' sliders - not an issue if you are young and healthy and can lift a reasonable weight. They are also more efficient if I recall correctly.

I did a lot of shopping around and talking to different companies, I'm happy with my choice so far.


1. Just wondering, what were the ranges of your 7 estimates? I got one estimate so far for $8000 for 11 windows. Couldn't find their name on windowwise. I realize it is kind of difficult to compare prices with so many variables...for instance I have 2 large bay windows and 2 rather large windows (5'x6').


Anyhow, I did call Brock and they appear to be busy. They said they would contact me by the end of the week though.

I have also called FM windows. They seem to be having a special and say they manufacture windows as well...could not find them on windowwise either. I have also called Consumer's Choice. Will keep you updated on the process (estimates).

[feminazi]

I asked for casement upgrade pricing, and the builder said it would be thousands to upgrade to casement windows, which I thought sounded way too high . . . sure they are more expensive, but that much more?!

A northern low E coating allows a bit less sun (short wave)into the house in the winter, but the key is that it does not allow the radiant (long wave) heat back out, so you are netting a lot more energy than with non-coated windows. It also does not allow as much radiant energy into the house in the summer, which is being given off by objects that have been heated by the sun.

Low E is a good way to go if you get the right coating . . .

[hammer]

We just had all our windows replaced in our 16 year old home. We had Vinylbilt windows installed, the premium series. The premium series have 1 inch thermal spacers instead of the standard 1/2 inch spacers. They are also low e glass and argon filled along with the "clean glass" technology. Our new windows also slightly tint when the sun hits them, a huge selling feature in a east/west facing house. The other huge factor in us choosing Vinylbilt is the lifetime warranty that is tranferable if we sell the house. :)

feminazi, definitely upgrade the windows if you can afford to! In our subdivision the houses are 16 years old. Every house has windows that the seal has gone so the windows are fogged between the panes and collect water in them. In some of the houses, seals went in windows within 6 years! Because the seals are gone folks are now have mold issues. Good windows are worth every penny IMO.


You seem to have got a great deal. Just a few more questions.

Were they brick to brick or just frame?
What company did you get the deal with?

Can't believe that some of you had 7 estimates done. I just finished my estimate from consumer's choice for $12000 for 15 windows...took 3 hours and heavy aggressive selling. I have not yet decided. I have got a headache.

[pluto]

something to think about if you are considering in-frame replacements (vs. brick to brick) is the glass area of the window will be quite a bit smaller than what you currently have (especially if you have sashless windows like I did), in my opinion it looks like crap and is a waste of space.

plus if there is rotten wood it will not be addressed and they will not be as efficient as that wood continues to rot.

but hey you save a few $ :/
many of the houses in my neighborhood obviously had in-frame replacements, it's pretty easy to tell from looking.

[hammer]

You brought up a good point there. Thanks. THe salesman did not even mention that. Guess what...after doing a bit of research on the salesman that came by, I was told that he was in/out of prison all his life...yikes!


Are you guys doing the basement windows as well? My salesman said it was not necessary.

[pluto]

Are you guys doing the basement windows as well? My salesman said it was not necessary.

probably cause that's how he plans to break into your house :D

you must live in a small town or something... how did you find that out about him? weird

I didn't do my (one) basement window, never really considered it. It's really small I can't imagine I am losing much energy there.

I'd like to replace my sliding patio basement door in the next few years though, but I haven't even started looking into doors yet. I think the french doors are much nicer than the sliding style though.

[hammer]

I got a quote on french doors as well...

$1400 for a basic french door for 5 feett sliding doors. I am still shopping.


As for the convict...I got that piece of info from another salesman from a competing company. I don't know who to believe...but that convict??salesman definitely lied about Brock being taken off the Windowwise...I called Windowise to verify.

[pluto]

that convict??salesman definitely lied about Brock being taken off the Windowwise...I called Windowise to verify.

thats pretty dirty tactics. I wouldn't deal with someone like that, convict or not.

Is his company part of Window Wise? If they are I would let Window Wise know the false info they are spreading. I would also let the management of that company know why you aren't dealing with them.

[CSK'sMom]

Hammer, ours are "brick to brick" windows. We bought them and had them installed through Factory Outlet Windows here in Niagara. We jumped on the deal after talking to a friend of ours. He owns over 50 rental properties (not units!) and with his contractor pricing he couldn't even come close to the price with middle of the road windows with no installation.

My hubby replaced our only basement window 3 years ago. It was the original window, the kind that was 2 panes of glass that slid in rails! :-0 We still need to do our 6 foot patio door and plan on doing it in the fall. We have been quoted between $1000-$1500 from several places (installed, taxes, etc.). We know we can buy a new patio door at Home Depot for a little less than $500 and we know an installer that will install it for $150. I would like garden doors but I don't have the room for them to open inwards or outwards. I would need a center hinged setup which appears to be special order (at least at HD). They seem to run between $500-$700. The one thing we did discover is that it seems that all manufacturers only warranty patio doors for no longer than 10 years and it's a pro-rated warranty. When we discovered that we figured we might as well not spend a lot of $$$$$.

[hammer]

Hammer, ours are "brick to brick" windows. We bought them and had them installed through Factory Outlet Windows here in Niagara. We jumped on the deal after talking to a friend of ours. He owns over 50 rental properties (not units!) and with his contractor pricing he couldn't even come close to the price with middle of the road windows with no installation.

My hubby replaced our only basement window 3 years ago. It was the original window, the kind that was 2 panes of glass that slid in rails! :-0 We still need to do our 6 foot patio door and plan on doing it in the fall. We have been quoted between $1000-$1500 from several places (installed, taxes, etc.). We know we can buy a new patio door at Home Depot for a little less than $500 and we know an installer that will install it for $150. I would like garden doors but I don't have the room for them to open inwards or outwards. I would need a center hinged setup which appears to be special order (at least at HD). They seem to run between $500-$700. The one thing we did discover is that it seems that all manufacturers only warranty patio doors for no longer than 10 years and it's a pro-rated warranty. When we discovered that we figured we might as well not spend a lot of $$$$$.



Are you very satisfied with the work? Could you give me a rough idea of the sizes of the windows becuz it is hard to compare without that info. I have 15 windows some are 6 feet wide and some 3 feet.

Also, just wondering about what they did with the inside framing/molding. Did they replace that or did they keep your old window molding? How did you know it was frame to frame?

You help is appreciated.

My quotes so far...

1. $14500 consumer's choice
2. $19000 brock windows
3. $14000 window masters

[CSK'sMom]

Hammer, we are very happy with the work. We love the way they capped the windows as well. Previously, like most newer houses, there was no trim around the windows. It was J channel right beside the actual window. Now it looks like we have trim around the windows because they actually capped over the top of the J channel, replicating trim. The don't change the original inside trim around the windows, in fact in our case they didn't even have to remove it. We specifically asked for "brick to brick" when we had the guys out to measure. We know we got it because we watched them take the old windows out, including the old frames. The only piece of the old windows they left was the nailing fin under the siding. When the windows were out there was nothing but the wood framing left. Our window sizes are as follows:

2 windows- 29" X 58" double hung
1 window - 25.5" X 28.5 double hung & half frosted (used to be a single slider)
1 window - 33.5" X 36.5" double slider
2 windows- 29" X 46" double hung
2 windows- 45" X 37" double slider

The onething I can say Hammer that you seem to have in your favour is that you are shopping around and taking your time. We phoned 10 different places and probably 5 didn't even call us back! Pretty poor business practices IMO but it's their financial loss. ;)

[hammer]

Thanks for holding my hand through this ordeal. :|

Window shopping is turning out to be absolutely a nightmare for me. Some incident so far while getting estimates.


1. claim to be windowwise but are not (verified with a simple phone call)
2. Sending another salesman from the same company pretending to be another NEW company...however, address is the same (verified by BBB).
3. Scarying me about recycled lead-containing vinyl of 99% of the Other companies's windows....All my children will have CANCER if I go with other companies!!! :( :(


Estimates update for the same job: :?:

$21000
$19000
$9000
$15000
$14000

Somebody is making alot of money or somebody is lying.

[randomdef]

Hammer, we are very happy with the work. We love the way they capped the windows as well. Previously, like most newer houses, there was no trim around the windows. It was J channel right beside the actual window. Now it looks like we have trim around the windows because they actually capped over the top of the J channel, replicating trim. The don't change the original inside trim around the windows, in fact in our case they didn't even have to remove it. We specifically asked for "brick to brick" when we had the guys out to measure. We know we got it because we watched them take the old windows out, including the old frames. The only piece of the old windows they left was the nailing fin under the siding. When the windows were out there was nothing but the wood framing left. Our window sizes are as follows:

2 windows- 29" X 58" double hung
1 window - 25.5" X 28.5 double hung & half frosted (used to be a single slider)
1 window - 33.5" X 36.5" double slider
2 windows- 29" X 46" double hung
2 windows- 45" X 37" double slider

The onething I can say Hammer that you seem to have in your favour is that you are shopping around and taking your time. We phoned 10 different places and probably 5 didn't even call us back! Pretty poor business practices IMO but it's their financial loss. ;)

are those rough openings or frame sizes? if frame sizes are they taken on the outside or the inside? do you want to upgrade them or do you want the same thing?

looking at those windows, i could ball park that for 10 grand easy, probally less for really good windows. no bays, no bows, no worries.

[CSK'sMom]

Randomdef, we have already had the new windows installed if you read further back in the thread. And it wasn't anywhere near $10K for top of the line windows. ;)

Hammer, I think the answer to the last line of your post is BOTH!

[hammer]

Just came back from a few window factories.

Update:

Window City: very rude, would not let me take pictures of windows that I got the estimate for...go figure... BTW lots of BMWs in their parking lot.

United windows: knowledgable but cheap windows IMHO. Lots of Porsches in their parking lot.


Apparently, there are 45 Window factories in the GTA...and of course hundreds of installers/dealers. It appears to be really hot business...lots of money changing hands... I am told that $5000-$6000 per house on average in Scarborough area for 3 days job is pure profit after $1000 for labour.

[EveryLurker]

Estimates update for the same job: :?:

$21000
$19000
$9000
$15000
$14000

Somebody is making alot of money or somebody is lying.

omg those quotes are crazy.. what the hell is going on

[controlyar]

I think most window "salesmen" are very corrupt. Do not believe ANYTHING they tell you - be sure to research.

Centennial Windows is probably the only place that actually fully tests all of their windows. They are the ones that created the window wise program.
The salesman was very aggressive but he believed in his product. They offer a lifetime warranty, that does not have exclusions like every other manufacturer (fading, peeling, cracking, etc.).

I would have liked to get windows from them, but of course the major down side was the price - it would have cost at least double compared what the majority of all the other places wanted. If you plan on keeping your house "forever" it may be something to look into.

Also look at the canadian energy star ratings - I remember the website was outdated when I was looking for windows , but its another resource.

I believe we ended up getting Northstar Windows (http://www.northstarwindows.com) from Linton Windows. They are WW certified and the price was right - Northstar is also energy star recommended. Try to get windows without a metal spacer, and get the argon as well (this is usually a standard option).

And be sure not to cheap out and get full frame replacement on all of your windows in open areas. Maybe get the inserts for basements windows, etc.

One of the shadier dealers was FM Windows - they sent flyers out to everyone and claimed they had "secret" data about their competitors . Pure BS - they weren't even WW certified. And remember the crap at home depot and rona is just marked up low end stuff.

Some of the smaller guys may give you a "cash" discount ;)

Good luck !

[bug]

I really like those Pella windows with blinds between the glass. No idea what they cost though. http://www.pella.com/

[hammer]

I really like those Pella windows with blinds between the glass. No idea what they cost though. http://www.pella.com/

I heard they brake easy if you have kids and they are expensive to repair.

[hammer]

I think most window "salesmen" are very corrupt. Do not believe ANYTHING they tell you - be sure to research.

Centennial Windows is probably the only place that actually fully tests all of their windows. They are the ones that created the window wise program.
The salesman was very aggressive but he believed in his product. They offer a lifetime warranty, that does not have exclusions like every other manufacturer (fading, peeling, cracking, etc.).

I would have liked to get windows from them, but of course the major down side was the price - it would have cost at least double compared what the majority of all the other places wanted. If you plan on keeping your house "forever" it may be something to look into.

Also look at the canadian energy star ratings - I remember the website was outdated when I was looking for windows , but its another resource.

I believe we ended up getting Northstar Windows (http://www.northstarwindows.com) from Linton Windows. They are WW certified and the price was right - Northstar is also energy star recommended. Try to get windows without a metal spacer, and get the argon as well (this is usually a standard option).

And be sure not to cheap out and get full frame replacement on all of your windows in open areas. Maybe get the inserts for basements windows, etc.

One of the shadier dealers was FM Windows - they sent flyers out to everyone and claimed they had "secret" data about their competitors . Pure BS - they weren't even WW certified. And remember the crap at home depot and rona is just marked up low end stuff.

Some of the smaller guys may give you a "cash" discount ;)

Good luck !

Thanks for your tip. Funny that you mention FM, I went to their factory today and asked where they put the argon...guess what? The guy hesitated and just pointed to the corner of the factory...There was no one stationed there putting gas in. I asked how I would know if argon was in the glass...he said there is no way to tell. Anyone know how you can tell if Argon is in there? I think they save tonnes of money if they "forget" to put argon.

I also visited window city because somebody said they used recycled vinyl containing lead. Well, I wanted to check if they really use pure white vinyl powder...I was stopped by a very rude secretary who said company policy is never to show the factory insides.

I also visited Window Designs in Woodbridge...while waiting for the manager, I saw them putting screws into the windows and noticed some of the screws were going in not plumb (not straight).

Unfortunately the demand is very high and it is a seller's market.
Therefore, if you are not careful, you can get royally shafted and then some.

[pluto]

I had the very same experience as controlyar, we were quoted by Centennial and I was impressed with the quality but the price was very high and the salesman was very aggressive, which I didn't care for. We also got Northstar windows (from a different supplier, Brock)

There are so many choices of window mfgs and dealers, they all will tell you their product is the best - which is why I looked to the Window Wise program to help make the choice.

sounds like you are really doing your homework hammer (visiting factories etc.)

[hammer]

I had the very same experience as controlyar, we were quoted by Centennial and I was impressed with the quality but the price was very high and the salesman was very aggressive, which I didn't care for. We also got Northstar windows (from a different supplier, Brock)

There are so many choices of window mfgs and dealers, they all will tell you their product is the best - which is why I looked to the Window Wise program to help make the choice.

sounds like you are really doing your homework hammer (visiting factories etc.)


Yes, almost every window manufacturer says theirs is the best. From looking and operating the windows I have to conclude...


Vinylbilt: less vinyl, nicely built, strong but ugly.
Gentek: the nicest design and nicely built (better welds) but a bit less hardy
North Star: good design and strong
Window city: strong but butt ugly, questionable material
Window design: strong and ugly and poorly built
FM: strong but poor quality, handle fell off when I operated! Metal type of spacer beneath the rubber spacer
Jeld and Wen: really bad gears for handle, aluminum spacers (not rec. by Natural Resources of Canada)....looks nice though. HD sells them too.

Right now I like Gentek and North Star.

[pluto]

If you find the quote for one of the installers who sells windows you like too high, don't be afraid to ask them for a better deal.

That's the nice thing about finding a couple dealers who sell the same mfg product, you can really compare apples to apples and get the best price.

[feminazi]

If the window is Energy Star rated, it will almost definately not have aluminum spacers . . . which means getting argon filled, low-e coated windows that are energy star rated is probably your best bet! It doesn't add a lot to the cost of the window, but it doubles the R value versus normal double glazed windows!

I have to make sure my builder is putting energy star windows in, if I am paying to upgrade them to argon filled and low-e coated, they bloody well better be certified! :)

[udh]

http://directories.csa-international.org

search under the building products and materials category, keyword Windows and put in your province (most likely you will buy from an in-province mfg)

as you will see many of the common window makes have not submitted for testing by the CSA. North Star (the one we went with) publishes their test results on their own website

I paid $3234 incl. GST for 5 full frame replacements (the only way to it IMO), two single sliders for the front bedrooms (look much nicer than double sliders on the front of the house - screen only on one half), one BIG double slider for the master bedroom at the back of the house (need double slider for cleaning there - window is 2 stories off the ground), a small single slider in the downstairs bathroom and a fixed hallway window. We got the ivory exterior finish to match our vinyl siding, argon fill, 'activ' self cleaning glass. We did not opt for the Double Low "E" Glass, if you do some reading you will find it is a good thing in VERY hot climates (like Arizona) but in Ontario in the winter it stops too much heat from coming into your house on sunny days.

All our side sliders are lift out BTW, which not many mfg.'s offer - having the lift out eliminates the stress on the window frame that the pivot points of 'tilt out' sliders - not an issue if you are young and healthy and can lift a reasonable weight. They are also more efficient if I recall correctly.

I did a lot of shopping around and talking to different companies, I'm happy with my choice so far.

Do you know how to interpret the rating result? for example,

North Star
Series Type Performance Ratings ER Rating
1151 Casement A3 B6 C5 S1 F10 -5 to -18

Vinylbilt
Platinum Casement A3 B7 C5 F2 S1

Which one is better can anyone tell by just reading the ratings?
Thanks.

[pluto]

I think the R value should be closest to zero (-1 is better than -10) you may even find some fixed windows with positive R values

[controlyar]

Those two windows are very similar.

CSA-A440 is the standard against which windows are tested.

A- resistance to air leakage
B - resistance to rain (from winds)
C - resistance to wind

F - forced entry
F1/F10 - pass
F2/F20 - better

S- screen strength

Refer to these links for more info:

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema/gesein/abhose/abhose_080.cfm
http://www.phtech.ca/www/english/industry/performance/tests.asp
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ccmc/registry/08/preface/08500_e.pdf

I would decide based on ER rating, features, looks, price, etc. assuming both are WW certified.

[hammer]

I find that most windows are the similar in energy ratings.

What it really comes down to is the installer and the looks of the windows.

Gentek appears to be better welded and looks nicer...vinylbilt are butt ugly.
Northstars feel solid.

[udh]

Those two windows are very similar.

CSA-A440 is the standard against which windows are tested.

A- resistance to air leakage
B - resistance to rain (from winds)
C - resistance to wind

F - forced entry
F1/F10 - pass
F2/F20 - better

S- screen strength

Refer to these links for more info:

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema/gesein/abhose/abhose_080.cfm
http://www.phtech.ca/www/english/industry/performance/tests.asp
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ccmc/registry/08/preface/08500_e.pdf

I would decide based on ER rating, features, looks, price, etc. assuming both are WW certified.

Thank you very much for the links. At least now I know what the numbers mean. From what I understand, the ratings are for comparison purpose only because it all depends on how the windows are installed.

[udh]

I find that most windows are the similar in energy ratings.

What it really comes down to is the installer and the looks of the windows.

Gentek appears to be better welded and looks nicer...vinylbilt are butt ugly.
Northstars feel solid.

Hammer, by reading the thread, I got to say that you have done a very thorough and excellent job of window shopping :-) Please post your final decision and let us know the before- and after-installation findings of yours. It would be interesting to learn from your experience.

I would like to replace my patio door and my front door (steel one with glass insert) and consider to have a glass closure for my front porch. If you know of any good installer with good price vs quality, please share with me. I am from GTA. Thanks.

[hammer]

Hammer, by reading the thread, I got to say that you have done a very thorough and excellent job of window shopping :-) Please post your final decision and let us know the before- and after-installation findings of yours. It would be interesting to learn from your experience.

I would like to replace my patio door and my front door (steel one with glass insert) and consider to have a glass closure for my front porch. If you know of any good installer with good price vs quality, please share with me. I am from GTA. Thanks.


Thanks, it is the biggest spending item this year, and I like to do my research. It will last 25 years so I better do it right in the first place. How many things can you say that about an item on RFD. :cheesygri

Update:

Went to visit a neighbour who had their windows done by window masters. They sell windows from Window City located in Woodbridge. The owners were happy with their job. But I still find their windows a bit ugly but strong with thick moldings.

Went to HD and found some garden doors on sale...$700 but found out that they are not painted and installation is $600.

[hammer]

Update,

I just came back from another window factory called HOMETECH Windows located in Concord.


Looks good from far, but close up the workmanship like welding and hardware look cheap...at least on the models displayed at the factory...just look at the sealers...some of them were uneven...and the excess plastic seem to have been sanded off....I was about to go with them because they had the lowest price...but looks like you get what you pay for at this place.

Stay away from these cheapo windows.

[hammer]

Did you ever get your windows done? What was your conclusion for best value in the GTA? Thanks for any info.

Yah...had a 20000$ job done. Went with a Brock because their northstar windows seem solid...built by manonites..but I am not completely satisfied as 2 windows were leaking and they have not fixed it yet. :mad:


Summery:

Payless...very sneaky, lied to us, ugly vinylbilt windows
Window masters/window city....crooks, russian mob?, not window wise
Prestidge windows......saleman was smking pot before he arrived
Consumer's choice...salesman has a criminal record for fraud, showed me his wife in bikinis on his cell phone screen saver.
Fosters..family run, trusty but expensive, uses gentek windows.
FM....absolutely not trusty as they don't seem to put argon in at the factory, ugly windows
Hometech....very poor workmenship, low quality

The reason some places are cheaper is because they cut corners. In fact anyone can "fit" your price range just by cutting corners here and there as I found out with my leaking windows...it is really a sellers market as the demand is high. Good luck but expect problems any choice you make.

[march38]

Do they fix your 2 leaking windows?
Is it something wrong with the windows?
Are you satisfied with their service guy?

Thanks

[raptorfan]

Do they fix your 2 leaking windows?
Is it something wrong with the windows?
Are you satisfied with their service guy?

Thanks


Yes, I want to know too, thinking of going with Brock for my windows. Need to get them done soon! Interesting thread, good info :)

[march38]

Got my windows done by Brock. Brick to Brick installation. No problem so far.
Very nice window! They are window wise but didn't use level at all.

[ohle]

Do they fix your 2 leaking windows?
Is it something wrong with the windows?
Are you satisfied with their service guy?

Thanks

.....really like to know too as I'm leaning to use Brock
Thanks