whats the best program to do in university for pre med ?

[Loveingenuity]

hi,

i'm a gr.11 student and I was just wondering what would be a good program to do for pre med since doing life science might not be the greatest thing to do if you need something to fall back on. Just so I can narrow down which schools I could apply to next year. I hope to be a OB/GYN

any feedback would be good and appreciated and thanks in advance

[virgilaug]

Id say nursing, but you would have to do you medical school pre requisites in the summer, because a lot of them (ie. chem, physics, and labs) are not offered as part of the nursing program. But it sure is good to fall back on and to get yourself into healthcare.

[noregister]

Id say nursing, but you would have to do you medical school pre requisites in the summer, because a lot of them (ie. chem, physics, and labs) are not offered as part of the nursing program. But it sure is good to fall back on and to get yourself into healthcare.

I once heard that nurse and doctors and educators in those fields don't really like to see people complete a nursing degree and then go to med school. Something about it being a waste of resources or time that could be used to train a nurse. Not sure about how true it is. It does seem like a great fallback option if you are set on the medical field, but then what if you decide that the medical field isn't for you at all? I guess you'd realize that before ever entering med school though.

[Obi Wan]

Health Sci at McMaster is the program you're looking for if your end goal is medicine. You can check out graduate statistics here: http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/graduates.html

In 2009/10, 93 grads out of 203 entered medicine. It's roughly 50% each year from what I hear..

[virgilaug]

I once heard that nurse and doctors and educators in those fields don't really like to see people complete a nursing degree and then go to med school. Something about it being a waste of resources or time that could be used to train a nurse. Not sure about how true it is. It does seem like a great fallback option if you are set on the medical field, but then what if you decide that the medical field isn't for you at all? I guess you'd realize that before ever entering med school though.

I've head that too, and I can understand why. But really, if OP presents himself as someone who first became a nurse to care for people, and then wanted to be a doc so he can expand his abilities and scopes in medicine, well then they'd have no problem with him.

[Loveingenuity]

really thats awesome and yeah I have been pondering this question for a while since like I've been hearing about u of t 's horrible rep for pre med so is health sciences the best thing to do for its wide range of professions available ?

[xlc_88]

really thats awesome and yeah I have been pondering this question for a while since like I've been hearing about u of t 's horrible rep for pre med so is health sciences the best thing to do for its wide range of professions available ?

Actually, it's just like any other undergrad program. The undergrad program and University doesn't matter.

[windforcexx28]

Actually, it's just like any other undergrad program. The undergrad program and University doesn't matter.

+1

You can do any program as long as you met the application conditions (courses, course load/year, etc.)

[snplow]

How serious are you about medicine? If you're willing to commit to it, then I would suggest you entertaining the idea of coming to the University of Saskatchewan.

Admission Criteria (I take no responsibility for the accurcy of this information as it has been a while since I needed to know this, and it has constantly evolved at the UofS

- min. 2 years of undergraduate training, must be considered a Saskatchewan resident (either has lived here for high school, or has done > 2 years of undergraduate at the university <- be sure to double check this)
- 76% MMI (10 stations, 10 min each, worst station mark thrown out), 24% on 2 years of best GPA
- no MCAT (recent change)
- positions available for medicine has increased from 60 to a projected of 100 in the past 5 years (currently seating 84).

I would say that if you are serious, and really know what you're getting into this is something worth considering. I know a lot of brilliant intelligent people who tried to get into medicine in relatively competitive provinces (based on # of qualified applicants vs positions available) who had difficulty getting into their home province, could not get into other schools due to in-province quotas and opted to do medicine overseas. The problem is that a) it is very expensive (>$20-30k/year vs $10k/year) and b) challenges in finding a residency position because you are considered an international medical graduate, thus can only match in international medical graduate residency positions (majority being family medicine) or apply for 2nd round residency positions.

Best of luck!

PS: I also noticed that you said you wanted to go into obs/gyn, I hope you don't like sleep ;)

[mastercool]

If your considering obs/gyn, why not consider going through a bachelor of midwifery undergrad first?

This would give you great exposure into that field, not to mention it is very much related. Midwifery as a profession has become publicly funded in our healthcare system. There are shortages in every province. Pay is in the six figures as well.

I know Ryerson has a good program. There's an excellent program in Calgary as well. I'd check it out.

[shannn]

How serious are you about medicine? If you're willing to commit to it, then I would suggest you entertaining the idea of coming to the University of Saskatchewan.

Admission Criteria (I take no responsibility for the accurcy of this information as it has been a while since I needed to know this, and it has constantly evolved at the UofS

- min. 2 years of undergraduate training, must be considered a Saskatchewan resident (either has lived here for high school, or has done > 2 years of undergraduate at the university <- be sure to double check this)
- 76% MMI (10 stations, 10 min each, worst station mark thrown out), 24% on 2 years of best GPA
- no MCAT (recent change)
- positions available for medicine has increased from 60 to a projected of 100 in the past 5 years (currently seating 84).

I would say that if you are serious, and really know what you're getting into this is something worth considering. I know a lot of brilliant intelligent people who tried to get into medicine in relatively competitive provinces (based on # of qualified applicants vs positions available) who had difficulty getting into their home province, could not get into other schools due to in-province quotas and opted to do medicine overseas. The problem is that a) it is very expensive (>$20-30k/year vs $10k/year) and b) challenges in finding a residency position because you are considered an international medical graduate, thus can only match in international medical graduate residency positions (majority being family medicine) or apply for 2nd round residency positions.

Best of luck!

PS: I also noticed that you said you wanted to go into obs/gyn, I hope you don't like sleep ;)

The Ontario disadvantage, heh.
Moving to Alberta isn't a bad idea either (Calgary or Edmonton).

[shannn]

Health Sci at McMaster is the program you're looking for if your end goal is medicine. You can check out graduate statistics here: http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/graduates.html

In 2009/10, 93 grads out of 203 entered medicine. It's roughly 50% each year from what I hear..

More like 80%

The people who don't respond are mostly in medical school.

[snplow]

Health Sci at McMaster is the program you're looking for if your end goal is medicine. You can check out graduate statistics here: http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/graduates.html

In 2009/10, 93 grads out of 203 entered medicine. It's roughly 50% each year from what I hear..

Woo, that's really good! I've always heard horror stories from people on RFD about UTSG's Health Science program and how it destroys pretty much everyone so I just associate Ontario universities with being very difficult in order to get into medicine, but that is a phenomenal statistic.

However, not to be a debbie downer, and for some perspective, I wonder if they pool Canadian med student entries and international med students together, and of that pie, where the division is. There are some very important implications that I think anyone interested in medicine should be aware of.

[snplow]

The Ontario disadvantage, heh.
Moving to Alberta isn't a bad idea either (Calgary or Edmonton).

Heh, lets just say I consider myself to be extremely fortunate haha.

[Bskll]

More like 80%

The people who don't respond are mostly in medical school.

but the mcmaster health sci program is very particular. it's not easy to get into through regular channels. your best chances are if you know someone who is in the program or had a sibling/cousin go through it.

[wirebound]

However, not to be a debbie downer, and for some perspective, I wonder if they pool Canadian med student entries and international med students together, and of that pie, where the division is. There are some very important implications that I think anyone interested in medicine should be aware of.

They pretty much can't due to government restrictions; most schools have quotas for the number of international applicants to med school (for example - UofT can only offer 7 spaces (http://www.md.utoronto.ca/admissions/information/requirements/International.htm)) and most schools also have quotas for in province vs. out of province applicants. The pooling starts in the CARMS matches (for residency positions) once you're done med school.

To the OP, your best option is whatever program you enjoy and you think you'll do well in; in most cases, you don't need a bio-sciences background to get into med school, you need high marks, the prerequisite courses and sometimes the MCAT to get in.

[snplow]

They pretty much can't due to government restrictions; most schools have quotas for the number of international applicants to med school (for example - UofT can only offer 7 spaces (http://www.md.utoronto.ca/admissions/information/requirements/International.htm)) and most schools also have quotas for in province vs. out of province applicants. The pooling starts in the CARMS matches (for residency positions) once you're done med school.

To the OP, your best option is whatever program you enjoy and you think you'll do well in; in most cases, you don't need a bio-sciences background to get into med school, you need high marks, the prerequisite courses and sometimes the MCAT to get in.

Sorry, perhaps I was a little unclear in my last post, I was curious about in the 2009-10 graduating class of the McMaster's Health Sci class, of the 93 out of 200ish who have been accepted into medicine, how many of them are in a Canadian vs an international medical program.

As you've mentioned, you're right, there are some very significant implications in terms of matching to a residency as you are not considered a Canadian medical graduate in CaRMs (despite the fact that you are a Canadian, but only have done med school outside of Canada). Even the family med and anatomical pathology spots are extremely competitive, often hundreds of applicants for only a handful of positions.

[shannn]

Sorry, perhaps I was a little unclear in my last post, I was curious about in the 2009-10 graduating class of the McMaster's Health Sci class, of the 93 out of 200ish who have been accepted into medicine, how many of them are in a Canadian vs an international medical program.


Trust me, it is significantly more than 1/2 of health sci grads from Mac that get into Canadian medical schools (it is closer to 80%).
I would say just a couple of people each year go into the Caribbean or other international schools, and the remaining get into other programs (such as Masters programs, and then a portion of those people get into medical school too).

[mastercool]

I know some really smart people who were flat out denied from attending canadian medical schools.

This one girl in particular - she was valedictorian of her high school and even got admitted to harvard for undergrad. Also has great ec's including sports champion record. Completed undergrad bio sciences at queens with great marks. Couldn't even get an interview at ontario's schools.

[Obi Wan]

The Ontario disadvantage, heh.
Moving to Alberta isn't a bad idea either (Calgary or Edmonton).
I'd say its more of a Toronto disadvantage. If you're from Ottawa, rural Ontario, or SWOMEN then you've got an advantage at those particular schools.


More like 80%

The people who don't respond are mostly in medical school.
Wow I didn't know it was that high. The other thing to keep in mind is that some people will decide during their undergrad that medicine isn't for them, so if you just look at med applicants that 80% can be higher.


but the mcmaster health sci program is very particular. it's not easy to get into through regular channels. your best chances are if you know someone who is in the program or had a sibling/cousin go through it.
I don't think so. There's a hard % cutoff, and knowing someone in the program won't help that. The only other filtering step is the personal submission, but the questions are available to anyone, so again you're not really at an advantage if you know someone in the program.

It's not like applying for a job where knowing someone will help you get your foot in the door.


Sorry, perhaps I was a little unclear in my last post, I was curious about in the 2009-10 graduating class of the McMaster's Health Sci class, of the 93 out of 200ish who have been accepted into medicine, how many of them are in a Canadian vs an international medical program.

As you've mentioned, you're right, there are some very significant implications in terms of matching to a residency as you are not considered a Canadian medical graduate in CaRMs (despite the fact that you are a Canadian, but only have done med school outside of Canada). Even the family med and anatomical pathology spots are extremely competitive, often hundreds of applicants for only a handful of positions.
I'd trust what Shannn says, dude's in med school.

Also keep in mind that the health sci class average is an A, so health sci pre-meds generally have a high GPA. It's the ECs and MCAT that they really need to work hard for.

[Bskll]

I'd say its more of a Toronto disadvantage. If you're from Ottawa, rural Ontario, or SWOMEN then you've got an advantage at those particular schools.

I don't think so. There's a hard % cutoff, and knowing someone in the program won't help that. The only other filtering step is the personal submission, but the questions are available to anyone, so again you're not really at an advantage if you know someone in the program.

It's not like applying for a job where knowing someone will help you get your foot in the door.

Also keep in mind that the health sci class average is an A, so health sci pre-meds generally have a high GPA. It's the ECs and MCAT that they really need to work hard for.

for my graduating highschool year, the top 4 people got 99.4, 99.0, 97.5, and 96.4, all 4 applied to mcmaster healthsci and was rejected. Among these 4, one took top spot at UT biology contest, 2 went to the provincial math contests, and 3 each started a club at school for 2 years. I'd say by all measures, they were excellent candidates, but the only person from my year who got into Mcmaster health sci was a slacker/no extra curricular dude with average of 82.

trust me, its not about hard cutoff. Mcmaster health sci very much depends on you writing the keywords in your submission. If you know what to write, the admin officers will pick up on that and will admit you ahead of others.

In order to have a very good chance at mcmaster health sci, knowing somone who went through the program is a major boost to your chances. Again, this program isn't like Life sciences at other universities. It's very particular in its admission process.

[shannn]

for my graduating highschool year, the top 4 people got 99.4, 99.0, 97.5, and 96.4, all 4 applied to mcmaster healthsci and was rejected. Among these 4, one took top spot at UT biology contest, 2 went to the provincial math contests, and 3 each started a club at school for 2 years. I'd say by all measures, they were excellent candidates, but the only person from my year who got into Mcmaster health sci was a slacker/no extra curricular dude with average of 82.

trust me, its not about hard cutoff. Mcmaster health sci very much depends on you writing the keywords in your submission. If you know what to write, the admin officers will pick up on that and will admit you ahead of others.

In order to have a very good chance at mcmaster health sci, knowing somone who went through the program is a major boost to your chances. Again, this program isn't like Life sciences at other universities. It's very particular in its admission process.

Part of that has to do with the fact that the people reading the applications are the students themselves.


I'd say its more of a Toronto disadvantage. If you're from Ottawa, rural Ontario, or SWOMEN then you've got an advantage at those particular schools.


Wow I didn't know it was that high. The other thing to keep in mind is that some people will decide during their undergrad that medicine isn't for them, so if you just look at med applicants that 80% can be higher.


I don't think so. There's a hard % cutoff, and knowing someone in the program won't help that. The only other filtering step is the personal submission, but the questions are available to anyone, so again you're not really at an advantage if you know someone in the program.

It's not like applying for a job where knowing someone will help you get your foot in the door.


I'd trust what Shannn says, dude's in med school.

Also keep in mind that the health sci class average is an A, so health sci pre-meds generally have a high GPA. It's the ECs and MCAT that they really need to work hard for.

I would trust snplow more, he's a resident :lol:

And about those Ontario "advantages", they only give you advantages for interviews, not for admission (Except for admission into NOSM where being rural accounts for I believe 1/3 of your admission...but one year someone from Toronto got in I believe)

[Obi Wan]

Part of that has to do with the fact that the people reading the applications are the students themselves.



I would trust snplow more, he's a resident :lol:

And about those Ontario "advantages", they only give you advantages for interviews, not for admission (Except for admission into NOSM where being rural accounts for I believe 1/3 of your admission...but one year someone from Toronto got in I believe)
lol I had no idea snplow was a resident

Having an advantage for getting the interview is an indirect advantage to getting in, no?

[Lamphead]

I have nothing to say other than don't go to UofT St. George, as I hear about horror stories of pre-med on a daily basis from my friends..and they aren't even close to graduating. UofT is ruthless. Forget about class averages being any higher than 65% (for real classes). Foreigners will make you redefine whatever you thought was smart and make you feel stupid for ever thinking you were anything to begin with. Almost all of the people in these classes graduated with more than a 90% average in Canada..unless they are from China/Korea. If you did graduate with less than 90%, I guarantee you will struggle mightily.

Is this stuff really that hard? Not really..the material is not that hard..UofT is just very reluctant to freely hand you marks..so theoretically if you are willing to work you should be ok.

As is, you are going to have to pick your courses VERY carefully to even think about maintaining anything resembling the coveted 3.7+ here at UofT..a lot of people literally pick bio majors here purely on the difficulty and the projected GPA outcome in each potential graduate pool after struggling through 1st and 2nd year. I'm not sure it's like this for other universities, but that's just UofT.

All of this assumes you are a reasonably normal intelligent person..unless you actually are legitimately smart, in which case..yes, UofT is a very good, prestigious option, and you will get a lot out of your education. o.o

McMaster sounds like a great place to go, although it may also suffer from the same problem..not as bad, for sure though. Any half decent school like Queens or Western would be ok and a lot easier, honestly, to get your marks and get out, and school life is really relaxed there, so they would be solid too. And to be honest again, a lot of pre-med hopefuls at UofT wish they went there. (but their pride prevents them from saying that)

[Loveingenuity]

cool thanks for replying I have also been hearing horror stories from u of t st. george is there anything different with the Mississauga campus and I want go to western. my question is now should I major in health sciences or biological sciences? I am smart ( 90 average through out high school)

[BoogieWilliams]

for my graduating highschool year, the top 4 people got 99.4, 99.0, 97.5, and 96.4, all 4 applied to mcmaster healthsci and was rejected. Among these 4, one took top spot at UT biology contest, 2 went to the provincial math contests, and 3 each started a club at school for 2 years. I'd say by all measures, they were excellent candidates, but the only person from my year who got into Mcmaster health sci was a slacker/no extra curricular dude with average of 82.

trust me, its not about hard cutoff. Mcmaster health sci very much depends on you writing the keywords in your submission. If you know what to write, the admin officers will pick up on that and will admit you ahead of others.

In order to have a very good chance at mcmaster health sci, knowing somone who went through the program is a major boost to your chances. Again, this program isn't like Life sciences at other universities. It's very particular in its admission process.

Wow, I find this really hard to believe. I am pretty sure that person might have known someone on the inside that had a hand in admissions. Also, same thing happened in my graduating high school year the top 3 people who were crazy smart, won math contests, etc. had mid to high 90s average and still did not get in. Getting into mcmaster health sci program is like getting into pre med itself ;) That is why the best recommendation is to go to an "easy" university and just get your undergrad done with the best grades possible and obtain some good ECs.

[clocktimes]

Whatever will give you the highest GPA. This could be English, Sociology, Chemistry, Biology, etc. GPA matters so much as a cut-off for med school. If you really want a safe backup, something like nursing or pharmacy is good, but those will likely lower your GPA as they are very intense. It depends how confident/passionate you are about med school. Also, you can always go back to school to complete a degree in Nursing, etc with advanced credit from your Bachelor's.

If you haven't already, I suggest you check out the canadian pre-med forums, there is a wealth of info there.

[bczk]

The Canadian Medical School Statistics indicate that Western is the school that puts the most students into medical school as a percentage of the number of people who apply from there.

UofT is the lowest.

[mavrik13]

The Canadian Medical School Statistics indicate that Western is the school that puts the most students into medical school as a percentage of the number of people who apply from there.

UofT is the lowest.

Western's medical school admissions only give you an advantage if you graduated from a high school in their SWOMEN area - otherwise, you're in the same boat as everyone else in Ontario. Don't choose a university based on silly stats like this.

To the OP - western would be a fine school to go to for premed. As to your question about the programs, take a look through the courses you would take in each program, and go from there. Check to see if they will meet medical school prerequisites. Go visit the university, try to talk to people in each of the programs (if possible).

Keep in mind that ~50-80% of your first year classmates will also want to do medicine. I still remember in the first class of first year biology, the professor asked us to raise our hands if we were interested in medicine. I'd say at least 90% of a 400 person classroom raised their hand. Also keep in mind that just because you had a 90%+ average in high school doesn't mean you are guaranteed to get a competitive medical school GPA. You're going to have to work hard in your undergrad, no matter what you do.

To others - I can't think of any university that gives you in-province application status for completing a full-time undergrad degree there (i.e Saskatchewan, Alberta). Correct me if I'm wrong.