Got a ticket for no insurance with dealer plates while selling my car, ADVICE PLEASE!

[HTNguyen]

Good evening everyone,
So today I had a couple come by to see the car I was selling, they also bought along dealer plates. Very nice and kind people actually.
So we went on Allen road to then 401 WB and got off at Keele, right after turning into Keele the OPP pulled us over and took a long while but they gave me a ticket for no insurance even though we had dealer plates with insurance on it. Unfortunately for me the car has to be registered to the dealership for it to apply he told us. (is this correct?) So they called a tow-truck and basically I had to have it towed back to my house and they wanted 250$ for it!!
In the end the couple bought the car with a nice discount because I asked them to pay the tow fees and stuff but in the end I'm stuck with this very nasty ticket...

So now I'm pretty depressed about this ticket, what should I do about it?
All advice are welcome, thanks in advance!
I hope no one else has to go through this horrible experience!

EDIT: The buyer was driving the car, not I. Sorry for any confusion

P.S. Never let anyone drive your car EVEN with dealer plates.

TL;DR
Dealer plates and Mechanic plates are useless in private sales.

[gman]

Good evening everyone,
So today I had a couple come by to see the car I was selling, they also bought along dealer plates. Very nice and kind people actually.
So we went on Allen road to then 401 WB and got off at Keele, right after turning into Keele the OPP pulled us over and took a long while but they gave me a ticket for no insurance even though we had dealer plates with insurance on it. Unfortunately for me the car has to be registered to the dealership for it to apply he told us. (is this correct?) So they called a tow-truck and basically I had to have it towed back to my house and they wanted 250$ for it!!
In the end the couple bought the car with a nice discount because I asked them to pay the tow fees and stuff but in the end I'm stuck with this very nasty ticket...

So now I'm pretty depressed about this ticket, what should I do about it?
All advice are welcome, thanks in advance!
I hope no one else has to go through this horrible experience!

P.S. Never let anyone drive your car EVEN with dealer plates.

Yes.

Who was driving? You?

Not sure why you think a dealer plate can give any car the "licence to be driven".

[HTNguyen]

Yes.

Who was driving? You?

Not sure why you think a dealer plates can give any car the "licence to be driven".

Nope, the guy was driving it. I was blown away when they gave me the ticket but kept my cool.
Really frustrating experience, I hope no one else will go through it.

Sorry I always heard people saying if a car has no insurance you'd need dealer plates or mechanic plates, to go for test drives.

[gman]

Nope, the guy was driving it. I was blown away when they gave me the ticket but kept my cool.
Really frustrating experience, I hope no one else will go through it.

Hmmm! You should have asked at that moment. You were not the driver. Did the cops ask the driver for his licence?

[gman]

Nope, the guy was driving it. I was blown away when they gave me the ticket but kept my cool.
Really frustrating experience, I hope no one else will go through it.

Sorry I always heard people saying if a car has no insurance you'd need dealer plates or mechanic plates, to go for test drives.

If the car was in the dealership or garage, their insurance would apply.

[HTNguyen]

Hmmm! You should have asked at that moment. You were not the driver. Did the cops ask the driver for his licence?

If the car was in the dealership or garage, their insurance would apply.

Yeah the cops did ask for it, but they didn't seem to care.

Unfortunately I didn't know that at the time.

Do you have any advice on what to do about the ticket ?

[gman]

Yeah the cops did ask for it, but they didn't seem to care.

Unfortunately I didn't know that at the time.

Do you have any advice on what to do about the ticket ?

Who are the "they"? The buyer or the cops? Did the driver provide the driver's licence?

I could be wrong but I think the ticket should go to the driver who did know the car did not have insurance (that was why they brought a dealer plate).

I guess you can fight the ticket (assuming my interpretation of the law is correct).

[HTNguyen]

Who are the "they"? The buyer or the cops? Did the driver provide the driver's licence?

I could be wrong but I think the ticket should go to the driver who did know the car did not have insurance (that was why they brought a dealer plate).

I guess you can fight the ticket (assuming my interpretation of the law is correct).

Sorry, I meant the cops didn't seem to care. The driver did give his information but he got it back.
How should I proceed with fighting the ticket if anyone could give me advice, I've been reading through the ticket sections but there's not really one for this matter.
Thanks again

[gman]

Sorry, I meant the cops didn't seem to care. The driver did give his information but he got it back.
How should I proceed with fighting the ticket if anyone could give me advice, I've been reading through the ticket sections but there's not really one for this matter.
Thanks again

I guess you need to find out if your ticket is justified. i.e. Are you the one who should get the ticket?

If no, get a court date and tell the court exactly what happened.
If yes, I would still do the same thing but I will have less confidence to win.

[mikeymike1]

Good evening everyone,
So today I had a couple come by to see the car I was selling, they also bought along dealer plates. Very nice and kind people actually.
So we went on Allen road to then 401 WB and got off at Keele, right after turning into Keele the OPP pulled us over and took a long while but they gave me a ticket for no insurance even though we had dealer plates with insurance on it. Unfortunately for me the car has to be registered to the dealership for it to apply he told us. (is this correct?) So they called a tow-truck and basically I had to have it towed back to my house and they wanted 250$ for it!!
In the end the couple bought the car with a nice discount because I asked them to pay the tow fees and stuff but in the end I'm stuck with this very nasty ticket...

So now I'm pretty depressed about this ticket, what should I do about it?
All advice are welcome, thanks in advance!
I hope no one else has to go through this horrible experience!

P.S. Never let anyone drive your car EVEN with dealer plates.


Garage insurance only insures vehicles owned and operated (by employees) under the dealership name. This includes the dealer plates used for test drives and transport purposes.

The car you are selling is not owned by the said dealer.
The vehicle is owned by you and rightfully so you should have insurance on it even though you are in the process of selling it
So the cop was right to fine you for operating a motor vehicle with no insurance

[gman]

Garage insurance only insures vehicles owned and operated (by employees) under the dealership name. This includes the dealer plates used for test drives and transport purposes.

The car you are selling is not owned by the said dealer that the dealer plate is registered to.
The vehicle is owned by you and rightfully so you should have insurance on it even though you are in the process of selling it
So the cop was right to fine you for operating a motor vehicle with no insurance

He was not driving the car.

OP, what is the HTA charge on the ticket?

[HTNguyen]

I guess you need to find out if your ticket is justified. i.e. Are you the one who should get the ticket?

If no, get a court date and tell the court exactly what happened.
If yes, I would still do the same thing but I will have less confidence to win.

I don't feel like I should have gotten the ticket, I informed them there was no insurance and he bought a dealer plate for that issue.
My mistake was that dealer plates or any plates won't do anything...
I'd just like to inform others so they don't get into this situation.

What are my chances of having it dropped, explaining to the court what happened exactly.
I got their information, I told them I'm going to request them to show up to court when I get a date but what are people's thought on this?

[gman]

I don't feel like I should have gotten the ticket, I informed them there was no insurance and he bought a dealer plate for that issue.
My mistake was that dealer plates or any plates won't do anything...
I'd just like to inform others so they don't get into this situation.

What are my chances of having it dropped, explaining to the court what happened exactly.
I got their information, I told them I'm going to request them to show up to court when I get a date but what are people's thought on this?

What is the HTA charge on the ticket? i.e. which HTA law the cops claimed you broke?

[mikeymike1]

He was not driving the car.

I don't think it matters. The vehicle is registered in his name and it is not insured so it should not be on the public roads to begin with.
He can fight it but I'm sure the judge will say the same thing. It just shouldn't be on the road at all.

The attached dealer plate only insures the test driver of the car. The car itself is not insured.
Read what I wrote again above... Garage insurance only insures vehicles owned and operated by vendor (dealership)

[gman]

I don't think it matters. The vehicle is registered in his name and it is not insured so it should not be on the public roads to begin with.
He can fight it but I'm sure the judge will say the same thing. It just shouldn't be on the road at all.

If the situation changes a bit, say:

OP let a friend to drive the car and he did not tag along. In this situation, who do you think will get the ticket? Will the cops come to OP's house and give him the ticket?

[HTNguyen]

What is the HTA charge on the ticket? i.e. which HTA law the cops claimed you broke?

It says on the paper
Did commit the offence of - "owner permit operation of motor vehicle on a highway - no insurance"
Contrary to - "The Compulsory Automobile Insurace Act"(Spelling mistake intact) Section - "2(1)(b)"

[gman]

It says on the paper
Did commit the offence of - "owner permit operation of motor vehicle on a highway - no insurance"
Contrary to - "The Compulsory Automobile Insurace Act"(Spelling mistake intact) Section - "2(1)(b)"

In this case, the ticket is meant for you.

[HTNguyen]

If the situation changes a bit, say:

OP let a friend to drive the car and he did not tag along. In this situation, who do you think will get the ticket? Will the cops come to OP's house and give him the ticket?

I actually wonder about this too, what would happen if I never came along....

[mikeymike1]

If the situation changes a bit, say:

OP let a friend to drive the car and he did not tag along. In this situation, who do you think will get the ticket? Will the cops come to OP's house and give him the ticket?

A lot of it is due to disclosure when there should have been more-of non-disclosure.
I think the fact that the OP was present in the car and disclosed that the car was his and he had no insurance may have prompted the cop to issue the ticket based on those facts.
If the test driver instead stated that he was transporting a purchased trade under the dealership name(thus the need of the dealer plate) then the cop may have let them go.
This type of scenario has happened before when I was working at the dealership point year and years ago when we would send out a team of drivers to the Oshawa auction to drive back the vehicles purchased.

[HTNguyen]

In this case, the ticket is meant for you.

Pretty stupid ticket, is this a huge offense?

[HTNguyen]

A lot of it is due to disclosure when there should have been more-of non-disclosure.
I think the fact that the OP was present in the car and disclosed that the car was his and he had no insurance may have prompted the cop to issue the ticket based on those facts.
If the test driver instead stated that he was transporting a purchased trade under the dealership name(thus the need of the dealer plate) then the cop may have let them go.
This type of scenario has happened before when I was working at the dealership point year and years ago when we would send out a team of drivers to the Oshawa auction to drive back the vehicles purchased.

You're right, unfortunately he was asking the questions, if we were not truthful about it we probably would have avoided this correct?

[gman]

Pretty stupid ticket, is this a huge offense?

I don't know. It appears it is not a HTA ticket. Is it still considered a traffic ticket? I guess you need other insurance experts to advise.

[mikeymike1]

You're right, unfortunately he was asking the questions, if we were not truthful about it we probably would have avoided this correct?
yep!

You would think that the buyers (whom are probably dealers or related to a dealer network) would have helped you out by telling the cop they we're transporting the vehicle back to their dealer etc
The ticket probably would have been avoided

[HTNguyen]

yep!

You would think that the buyers (whom are probably dealers or related to a dealer network) would have helped you out by telling the cop they we're transporting the vehicle back to their dealer etc

Yeah, that really sucked... do you have any experience with someone who had a ticket like this?

[Busybuyer888]

You're right, unfortunately he was asking the questions, if we were not truthful about it we probably would have avoided this correct?

Best to be truthful. :)

It would be likely that the police would have asked to see the car's registration/ownership. Or at minimum an invoice/bill of sale.

The officer would of likely found more things to charge both parties with.

It was foolish for OP to allow their un-insured car to be driven at all. OP would of lost the entire value of the car if an accident occured, and faced lawsuits for personal injury claims. Compared with that, the ticket is like nothing.

[HTNguyen]

I don't know. It appears it is not a HTA ticket. Is it still considered a traffic ticket? I guess you need other insurance experts to advise.

If you don't mind me asking, do you know anyone on the forums who are insurance experts?

[gman]

If you don't mind me asking, do you know anyone on the forums who are insurance experts?

I don't have one on top of my mind. You need to look at some ticket/insurance thread. Some posters have insurance broker logo as avatar.

[mikeymike1]

Yeah, that really sucked... do you have any experience with someone who had a ticket like this?

No, not one that stuck.

What I suggest you do is contact the people who bought the car and ask them if they would provide a deposition stating they are a dealer and they bought the car for their dealership inventory and they we're in the process of transporting the purchased vehicle.
The good thing is they 'actually' bought it while test driving it with the use of their dealer plate.

Dealer plates are only to used for the purpose of 'business' under the operation of the dealership. Dealers plates are not to be used for everyday personal use on private cars unless transporting newly purchased vehicles. That's my understanding unless the rules have changed which I don't think they have.

This will affect your own personal insurance rating so do whatever it takes

[HTNguyen]

Best to be truthful. :)

It would be likely that the police would have asked to see the car's registration/ownership. Or at minimum an invoice/bill of sale.

The officer would of likely found more things to charge both parties with.

It was foolish for OP to allow their un-insured car to be driven at all. OP would of lost the entire value of the car if an accident occured, and faced lawsuits for personal injury claims. Compared with that, the ticket is like nothing.

Thankfully I'm grateful for that. After this experience, never again! And I hope others will read this and be safe selling their cars as well!

[HTNguyen]

No, not one that stuck.

What I suggest you do is contact the people who bought the car and ask them if they would provide a deposition stating they are a dealer and they bought the car for their dealership inventory and they we're in the process of transporting the purchased vehicle.
The good thing is they 'actually' bought it while test driving it with the use of their dealer plate.

Dealer plates are only to used for the purpose of 'business' under the operation of the dealership. Dealers plates are not to be used for everyday personal use on private cars unless transporting newly purchased vehicles. That's my understanding unless the rules have changed which I don't think they have.

This will affect your own personal insurance rating so do whatever it takes

Thanks for your advice!
How much of an affect would it be if I get convicted of this? Would I be paying premiums so high it's not even worth driving anymore ?

[Busybuyer888]

Thankfully I'm grateful for that. After this experience, never again! And I hope others will read this and be safe selling their cars as well!

We all need to thank OP for starting this thread too.

We now know dealer plates mean nothing from an insurance perspective.

[spike1128]

If you had the car lets say you had no insurance. Your friend drives your car and put his plate on you car while you are next to him. The cop pull you over. Ask if the plate belongs to the car, you said no. Then ask you for your insurance, you said you don't have it. He will still give you a ticket for driving without insurance, wouldn't it? Cause you own the car, no insurance, but the car is running.

[HTNguyen]

We all need to thank OP for starting this thread too.

We now know dealer plates mean nothing from an insurance perspective.

Thanks a lot! I found out the hard way!!! ARGH
At least others are now informed about dealer plates and mechanic plates means nothing to private sales!

[gman]

If you had the car lets say you had no insurance. Your friend drives your car and put his plate on you car while you are next to him. The cop pull you over. Ask if the plate belongs to the car, you said no. Then ask you for your insurance, you said you don't have it. He will still give you a ticket for driving without insurance, wouldn't it? Cause you own the car, no insurance, but the car is running.

No, the owner would not get that ticket because he was not the driver. He is the owner. Using OP's case as an example, the owner will get what OP gets (which is not "driving without insurance"). OP got "owner permit operation of motor vehicle on a highway - no insurance".

[mikeymike1]

yes, 'owner permit operation - with no insurance' may not be as severe as 'owner operate - with no insurance'

OP will have to talk to an insurance expert (other than the one he's about to use or is currently with)

[markopas]

Have you seeked advice from a paralegal? How much time do you have before you can submit for a court date?

[HTNguyen]

yes, 'owner permit operation - with no insurance' may not be as severe as 'owner operate - with no insurance'

OP will have to talk to an insurance expert (other than the one he's about to use or is currently with)

Thanks a lot for all your help, I was wondering if the officer's spelling mistake on "The Compulsory Automobile Insurace Act" could be used to void this ticket.
Is that even possible or would the judge just dismiss the mistake?

[HTNguyen]

Have you seemed advice from a paralegal? How much time do you have before you can submit for a court date?

At this time, I have not yet seek advice from a paralegal. I may plan to on the weekdays, technically I'm not sure if I need to submit a court date because it says "summons to defendant" and it already has a court date on 28 of Feb. There's no amount due or anything either.
This does look different from the normal ticket.
I'll post a pic soon.

http://imgur.com/uygWk
Sorry for asking but what kind of ticket is this? I have never seen it before

[vero95]

if you were not the tdriver, it's not your ticket
the ticket belongs to the driver

[Fox1971]

At this time, I have not yet seek advice from a paralegal. I may plan to on the weekdays, technically I'm not sure if I need to submit a court date because it says "summons to defendant" and it already has a court date on 28 of Feb. There's no amount due or anything either.
This does look different from the normal ticket.
I'll post a pic soon.

http://imgur.com/uygWk
Sorry for asking but what kind of ticket is this? I have never seen it before

It isn't a ticket. What you received was a Provincial Offences Act Part III Summons. A summons doesn't have a set fine because the fine is determined by the JP when you are found guilty at trial. Get a paralegal because a summons can be a lot more expensive than a ticket.

[markopas]

At this time, I have not yet seek advice from a paralegal. I may plan to on the weekdays, technically I'm not sure if I need to submit a court date because it says "summons to defendant" and it already has a court date on 28 of Feb. There's no amount due or anything either.
This does look different from the normal ticket.
I'll post a pic soon.

http://imgur.com/uygWk
Sorry for asking but what kind of ticket is this? I have never seen it before

It doesnt look like normal ticket, but you are dealing with the OPP so they're tickets might look different from other municipal tickets.

If I were you, try to get various advice from other places like x-coppers and places like those, they're usually pretty helpful with info over the phone and if you should really worry about it.

I would also think that if you are truthful and honest with the JP that you just explain that you didn't know was ok as the purchasers insured you that it was perfectly fine. The excuse might not stand up in court but may be more lenient but hard to say.

[Fox1971]

if you were not the tdriver, it's not your ticket
the ticket belongs to the driver

Wrong again as usual. Try reading the actual offence on the summons the OP received. He wasn't charged under the HTA.

[HotYaris]

I was wondering if the officer's spelling mistake on "The Compulsory Automobile Insurace Act" could be used to void this ticket.
Is that even possible or would the judge just dismiss the mistake?

Really? Are you that desperate to grasp at anything to avoid your upcoming fate in court?

[chimaican]

I suppose the lesson here is if you are selling a car, get temporary car insurance on it until you sell it, or don't get rid of your insurance. I just sold my old car but I specifically told them to only drive up and down the street because I stupidly took the insurance off of it before selling it.

You cannot operate a vehicle without insurance. Even if someone else is driving the vehicle, it must always be insured in case of accident. That's why you can lend out your car even if you aren't present in the car.

I'm sorry for the OP, and I hope you can have your case dismissed or win your case because of this oversight as I'm sure most of us would accidentally do the same thing. I would get a paralegal though to help you as when it comes to the law, ignorance is not an excuse.

[tim-x]

Let's not hang the OP here with "hope you learn your lesson" rhetoric. He obviously is in relatively uncharted territory and clearly made an honest mistake that's got an enormous consequence.

I think someone previously mentioned have the buyers state that they had agreed to buy the car and were frying it to their garage/dealership. Hopefully they can help out.

OP you obviously were trying to comply with the law and got screwed. I hope it works out for you. I'd suggest getting a paralegal as I'm guessing the fine/consequence is rather large.

[spf1971]

Really? Are you that desperate to grasp at anything to avoid your upcoming fate in court?

I think the OP might be on to something; those 7's and 9's, obviously European, the Op wasn't in Europe so it should be an automatic dismissal.

[Fox1971]

I think the OP might be on to something; those 7's and 9's, obviously European, the Op wasn't in Europe so it should be an automatic dismissal.

Don't encourage him, he might take you seriously. :lol:

[fieldhousehandyman]

if you were not the tdriver, it's not your ticket
the ticket belongs to the driver

You might be correct on passing across double yellow lines, but you are dead wrong here buddy!

The ticket belongs to the registered owner for the vehicle, not the driver at the time of the offence. The Compulsory Automibile Insurance Act is not part of the Highway Traffic Act (hence the different names)

From the CAIA:
Compulsory automobile insurance
2. (1) Subject to the regulations, no owner or lessee of a motor vehicle shall,
(a) operate the motor vehicle; or
(b) cause or permit the motor vehicle to be operated,
on a highway unless the motor vehicle is insured under a contract of automobile insurance. 1994, c. 11, s. 383; 1996, c. 21, s. 50 (3).

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90c25_e.htm


I think the minimum fine for permit operation without insurance is $5000 for a first offence, and up to $50,000 or more for subsequent offences, but that was years ago when they first increased them.


Also from the CAIA:
Offence
(3) Every owner or lessee of a motor vehicle who,
(a) contravenes subsection (1) of this section or subsection 13 (11); or
(b) surrenders an insurance card for inspection to a police officer, when requested to do so, purporting to show that the motor vehicle is insured under a contract of automobile insurance when the motor vehicle is not so insured,
is guilty of an offence and is liable on a first conviction to a fine of not less than $5,000 and not more than $25,000 and on a subsequent conviction to a fine of not less than $10,000 and not more than $50,000 and, in addition, his or her driver’s licence may be suspended for a period of not more than one year. R.S.O. 1990, c. C.25, s. 2 (3); 1996, c. 21, s. 50 (4); 2002, c. 22, s. 33.



I got dinged 20 years back, with a temporary permit on a new vehicle, and valid insurance on the old broke down vehicle that the new vehicle was replacing. I had called the insurance company to transfer coverage, but it was a weekend, and a phone message is not considered valid transfer of insurance, even if all details (vin and descriptions of old and new vehicles) are correct. I had my fine reduced by a Judge from 5 grand to $250 after explaining the situation and pleading guilty with an explanation... but I got extremely lucky, and never made that mistake again.

I would probably go to trial, plead guilty with an explanation, and tell the judge that you were under the impression that dealer plates had insurance attached, and thought you were complying with the law, and see if you can get a reduced fine.

But before you do that, find out if Judges can still reduce fines for that offence, it may be now that they do not have that discretion...

Hey Vero95, why not thank me for this post!

[CaptSmethwick]

Yes, the OP was naive for letting anybody drive an uninsured car. The "buyers" undoubtedly confused him by bringing along those dealer plates - I suspect that this was arranged ahead of time between the OP and the "buyers" but I wonder how the OP thought that this was going to insure the car and the drivers.

Also, I'm a little curious as to why the vehicle was pulled over in the first place - was the vehicle obviously unfit, was the driver speeding, driving erratically, etc.? If there was nothing untoward in the driving, my spidey senses would be tingling - I'd suspect a cute scam designed to net some money for the tow. The only thing that gets me off that trail is the involvement of the OPP (which presumably was uniformed and in a marked car) and what appears to the OP to be a legitimate summons. Otherwise, I'd suspect something here.

[fieldhousehandyman]

Interesting, but everything about the ticket and pull over are legit, from what I know, police view temporary permits and dealer plate use with a bit of suspicion, depending on location, time of day, and number of occupants in car, especially when the cars are older vehicles. The Officers spidey sense was tingling, for good reason of course!

[HTNguyen]

Thank you everyone for all your great advices!
I really appreciate every bit of information, everyone has provided.

I'm going to be looking for a paralegal tomorrow, anyone have any good suggestions?

[HTNguyen]

Yes, the OP was naive for letting anybody drive an uninsured car. The "buyers" undoubtedly confused him by bringing along those dealer plates - I suspect that this was arranged ahead of time between the OP and the "buyers" but I wonder how the OP thought that this was going to insure the car and the drivers.

Also, I'm a little curious as to why the vehicle was pulled over in the first place - was the vehicle obviously unfit, was the driver speeding, driving erratically, etc.? If there was nothing untoward in the driving, my spidey senses would be tingling - I'd suspect a cute scam designed to net some money for the tow. The only thing that gets me off that trail is the involvement of the OPP (which presumably was uniformed and in a marked car) and what appears to the OP to be a legitimate summons. Otherwise, I'd suspect something here.

Yeah, unfortunately I heard so many times people saying you need dealer plates to test drive it if it wasn't insured but I never really looked into it.
That's the reason why I made this thread, so others won't have that same idea and will avoid this.

It was sheer bad luck, we happen to get off 401 and the OPP was right beside us, and he looked at the driver and then soon as he turned onto Keele his lights went off.

[vero95]

Wrong again as usual. Try reading the actual offence on the summons the OP received. He wasn't charged under the HTA.

why usual? :facepalm:
I glanced through the thread last night and thought the ticket was "driving without insurance" while OP was not the driver
did the person who was actually driving the car receive a ticket?

[vero95]

You might be correct on passing across double yellow lines, but you are dead wrong here buddy!
Hey Vero95, why not thank me for this post!

right, you never thanked me but want to be thanked each time you quote some law :facepalm:

[fieldhousehandyman]

right, you never thanked me but want to be thanked each time you quote some law :facepalm:

Actually, I have thanked you at least 8 times for various of your posts... perhaps I was being too generous.

[vero95]

Actually, I have thanked you at least 8 times for various of your posts... perhaps I was being too generous.

in that case, I thank you :)