Dilemma: what would you do? A candidate lied about education in their application

[ahujie]

I currently work for a small non profit. I am currently hiring my replacement as I am leaving for another opportunity.

Here's the deal: we have extended an offer to a candidate, and I've completed reference checks, which all went well. Got a third party company to do background/credit check, which turned out fine as well.

Now I asked the candidate for a copy of his university degree, and he tells me he actually doesn't have one. He says he left school one term or a few credits short of graduation, and has been doing part time classes since to get his degree. I am stunned, dumbfounded. The degree was not listed as a requirement for this job, but given the competitiveness of the market, we interviewed people who said they have one on their resume.

I informed my supervisor, the hiring manager, of this dilemma, and even he is torn about what to do. This guy seemed like the best candidate, even without the education criteria factored in. Well spoken, his references were legit and glowing (I looked them and their companies up on LinkedIn, Google), no criminal record, good credit check results, he has many years of relevant experience etc.

Any HR ppl/hiring managers out there? What would you do?

Should I appreciate the guy's honesty, at least he didn't submit a fake diploma? Or should I be wary and find someone else?

Should work experience trump education in this case?

[tebore]

So did he tell you he had a degree? Did he straight out put education: graduated in xxxx?
Did you ask him about his education before hand?

If you ask for it after the fact just because you wanted to see it I don't see how he lied.

He applied and fulfilled the requirements.

So your options are: take the guy who can do the job but doesn't have a piece of $20k toilet paper? or give some idiot with a piece of $20k toilet paper the job?

[aalui]

Everyone lies and over exaggerate on their resume. At least this guy was being honest and it seems like hes the right fit for the job. I say just hire him

[damnos]

Should I appreciate the guy's honesty, at least he didn't submit a fake diploma? Or should I be wary and find someone else?

Should work experience trump education in this case?

Work Experience trump education 99% of the time

Did this guy lie or you assumed he had degree when his resume only show that he DID go to university but did not indicate he finished? If so, and seems like he didnt try to hide this fact, why is it such a big deal?

Would you really value a writing on a paper that say he graduated and was able to memorize stuff and write exams as opposed to professional references from people who says he can actually execute the work?

[ahujie]

So did he tell you he had a degree? Did he straight out put education: graduated in xxxx?
Did you ask him about his education before hand?

If you ask for it after the fact just because you wanted to see it I don't see how he lied.

He applied and fulfilled the requirements.

So your options are: take the guy who can do the job but doesn't have a piece of $20k toilet paper? or give some idiot with a piece of $20k toilet paper the job?


Well on his application and resume it says: Honours Bach of Arts, 2008. he lists his majors as Sociology and Health Studies, which are areas relevant to our organization. In his interview he mentioned how his undergrad education and courses taught him about the field.

We've started doing more thorough background checks, just beyond references now. In the past, we've hired some really incompetent people who it turns out exaggerated claims on their resumes, and could not live up to job performance expectations. This guy's experience and references are great, but this lie feels like a betrayal. I was rooting for him once we got to know him, and genuinely like him, as did the team.

It is in the hands of my manager now I guess. It sucks because we spent two weeks interviewing many people, through 2 or 3 rounds of interviews. As a small organization without a formal HR dept or budget for it, it takes a significant toll on our time and resources when this happens.

[NorthYorker]

I would say he's the best candidate.

[CantMissADeal]

If he said he went to school from such a date to such a date and does not actually say he graduated then that's not lying per se, since what he wrote down was true, it is just open to interpretation and you guys interpreted it wrong. But if he said he has a degree or graduate then that's an outright lie so better not to hire him because who knows if he will lie in the future?

[warren26]

Put him/her on a short leash and see how they perform. If an education is not required than give them the benefit of the doubt. OR call candidate number 2

[setell]

Well on his application and resume it says: Honours Bach of Arts, 2008. he lists his majors as Sociology and Health Studies, which are areas relevant to our organization. In his interview he mentioned how his undergrad education and courses taught him about the field.

We've started doing more thorough background checks, just beyond references now. In the past, we've hired some really incompetent people who it turns out exaggerated claims on their resumes, and could not live up to job performance expectations. This guy's experience and references are great, but this lie feels like a betrayal. I was rooting for him once we got to know him, and genuinely like him, as did the team.

It is in the hands of my manager now I guess. It sucks because we spent two weeks interviewing many people, through 2 or 3 rounds of interviews. As a small organization without a formal HR dept or budget for it, it takes a significant toll on our time and resources when this happens.

To be fair it doesn't say he graduated just that it's implied, and you never asked to verify he graduated. I don't think he misrepresented himself at all. I would hire him if he's the right man for the job. I give him extra credits for taking courses at night/distance ed to complete the degree we're debating about here. It is very hard to dedicate time to studies after a long day at work. I don't know why it's such a big deal when it's a job that don't require a degree. Degree or no degree, who cares as you don't need one to do the job.

[eiad77]

I guess I am in the minority but I would never hire him. When a resume says "Honours Bach of Arts, 2008" it means that he graduated in 2008 with an Honours Bachelors of Arts. I don't understand why people on this message board think that's not a lie. He should have made it clear that he didn't graduate. Also, why would he leave a couple of credits short of graduation? That doesn't make a lot of sense. If he is willing to lie on his resume, he is probably not the most trustworthy person in the world. I agree that having a degree vs being a couple credits short probably doesn't affect job performance, but the fact that he lied about it does.

[Winkle]

To be fair it doesn't say he graduated just that it's implied, and you never asked to verify he graduated. I don't think he misrepresented himself at all. I would hire him if he's the right man for the job. I give him extra credits for taking courses at night/distance ed to complete the degree we're debating about here. It is very hard to dedicate time to studies after a long day at work. I don't know why it's such a big deal when it's a job that don't require a degree. Degree or no degree, who cares as you don't need one to do the job.

Actually they did lie, they listed that they attained a Bachelors of Arts degree with Honors in 2008 in their resume, and it turns out they don't have one. It's a lie.

Things like education and training certificates and degrees are never implied on a resume, they are explicit, it's not like the skills sections where there's some leeway for interpretation.

But definitely a very "grey" scenario, tough situation really. I wouldn't know what to do either.

[hightech]

Let me say that I have looked at hiring issues for many large firms in Canada and US and our view was that whatever is listed on the resume is 100% and can be backed up. If he says he graduated with a degree and in fact didn't, I would not only fire/revoke the offer to the guy, but look at him to reimburse the 3rd party incidental costs you did in order to screen this guy. You relied on good faith and paid companies money to do background checks, and then found out that he didn't graduate. Why piss around with this guy when there are many others who would be happy to work and get turned down because someone lied on their resume. Sue this bugger and he will learn not to do this again. Turn a blind eye, and who is to say that he does not try this again?

I would also question how good those companies that do checking are if they didn't uncover that this guy faked his graduation.

[keano]

Well on his application and resume it says: Honours Bach of Arts, 2008. he lists his majors as Sociology and Health Studies, which are areas relevant to our organization. In his interview he mentioned how his undergrad education and courses taught him about the field.

We've started doing more thorough background checks, just beyond references now. In the past, we've hired some really incompetent people who it turns out exaggerated claims on their resumes, and could not live up to job performance expectations. This guy's experience and references are great, but this lie feels like a betrayal. I was rooting for him once we got to know him, and genuinely like him, as did the team.

It is in the hands of my manager now I guess. It sucks because we spent two weeks interviewing many people, through 2 or 3 rounds of interviews. As a small organization without a formal HR dept or budget for it, it takes a significant toll on our time and resources when this happens.

Was there any reason given as to why he was a few credits short of graduation? Did you outright ask if he graduated in the interview?

To me, if someone put "Bachelor of XXX" with a single date, to me that means he has graduated. I can understand why people lie and overexagerate on their resumes given today's economy, but I am also a man of principle. I have seen people outright lie, especially on the education, from having an accounting designation to ballooning up/doctoring their transcript to get a CA training position, and it really makes my blood boil, because these people probably won't wind up getting dismissed...even if they are grossly incompotent at what they do, and also there was someone more deserving of the position.

Did #1 blow everyone out of the water? This is a very tough situation but I would not hire #1 and go with #2...a lie is a lie.

[eiad77]

To be fair it doesn't say he graduated just that it's implied

I think that's dead wrong. When you list a degree and a year on your resume it means you completed your degree during that year. If he didn't finish, he should have put in progress or expected date of completion.

It's like if I put: "President Bank of Montreal 2006" and then said oh I didn't actually say I was the president I just almost got hired.

[ahujie]

Was there any reason given as to why he was a few credits short of graduation? Did you outright ask if he graduated in the interview?

To me, if someone put "Bachelor of XXX" with a single date, to me that means he has graduated. I can understand why people lie and overexagerate on their resumes given today's economy, but I am also a man of principle. I have seen people outright lie, especially on the education, from having an accounting designation to ballooning up/doctoring their transcript to get a CA training position, and it really makes my blood boil, because these people probably won't wind up getting dismissed...even if they are grossly incompotent at what they do, and also there was someone more deserving of the position.

Did #1 blow everyone out of the water? This is a very tough situation but I would not hire #1 and go with #2...a lie is a lie.

He says he currently has two more courses left for his degree. I asked if he has plans to finish it, he says by the end of this year, since he needs program specific upper year courses which are only offered in the fall of this year.

No we did not outright ask if he graduated in the interview, nor did he say it. It never crossed my mind

However, in the online application system, there is a question that asks "Do you have a degree or diploma" and he checked the "YES" box. I asked him why he did this, and he said he didn't see an option to list that he had partially completed his degree or was working towards it, so he went with the next best option.

#1 and #2 were quite close. But what set #1 apart was his relevant work experience - he had more of it, and a better understanding of issues in the health policy field - or it seemed, I thought his degree helped him with that. #2 also has a degree, or so his resume says.

I think I am more in a grey area than my manager is about this potential hire. He sees things more black and white - a lie is a lie.

[aalui]

He says he currently has two more courses left for his degree. I asked if he has plans to finish it, he says by the end of this year, since he needs program specific upper year courses which are only offered in the fall of this year.

No we did not outright ask if he graduated in the interview, nor did he say it. It never crossed my mind

However, in the online application system, there is a question that asks "Do you have a degree or diploma" and he checked the "YES" box. I asked him why he did this, and he said he didn't see an option to list that he had partially completed his degree or was working towards it, so he went with the next best option.

#1 and #2 were quite close. But what set #1 apart was his relevant work experience - he had more of it, and a better understanding of issues in the health policy field - or it seemed, I thought his degree helped him with that. #2 also has a degree, or so his resume says.

I think I am more in a grey area than my manager is about this potential hire. He sees things more black and white - a lie is a lie.

thats what the NO option is for, partially completed means no degree. I have to take my opinion back as I believe this guy is trying his luck and got through. He could potentially lie in the future too. Partially complete something and tells people he completed them :facepalm:

[Winkle]

However, in the online application system, there is a question that asks "Do you have a degree or diploma" and he checked the "YES" box. I asked him why he did this, and he said he didn't see an option to list that he had partially completed his degree or was working towards it, so he went with the next best option.

Haha, that's terrible. I would not be impressed with that answer. You either have a degree or you do not. There's no such thing as a half-degree or a partially-completed degree. Under that logic anyone who has obtained any kind of post-secondary education credits can claim they have a degree under that system. If it were me, I would have thrown that back their face and see how they reacted.

I'll be a bit weary of someone who can justify lying on their job application like that, but I'm not going to rail them either when I don't know them, that's not fair. I don't know what their situation is, maybe they're really desperate for a job and desperation can make people do things they would not normally do.

[keano]

He says he currently has two more courses left for his degree. I asked if he has plans to finish it, he says by the end of this year, since he needs program specific upper year courses which are only offered in the fall of this year.

No we did not outright ask if he graduated in the interview, nor did he say it. It never crossed my mind

However, in the online application system, there is a question that asks "Do you have a degree or diploma" and he checked the "YES" box. I asked him why he did this, and he said he didn't see an option to list that he had partially completed his degree or was working towards it, so he went with the next best option.

I think I am more in a grey area than my manager is about this potential hire. He sees things more black and white - a lie is a lie.

Sorry, I'm going to have to side with your manager on this one.

The question was asked and he outright lied on the answer. I am sure there is an area on the application where they could have indicated that they are close to completing their degree/diploma then that way he was still being honest. But the candidate did not do that. They outright lied.

Remember a couple of things, you are still employed and want to leave your position and workplace on good terms. Also, I assume you will have the opportunity to train your replacement. Assuming you are very well versed in said field, impart as much knowledge as you can on Candidate #2 so they can be up to speed. A lot of things are fixable, unfortunately lying isnt exactly one of them. Canadidate #1 is gonna have to learn the hard way.

I would do exactly what hightech said...also if he is affiliated to any professional association related to the field, I would report them.

[eiad77]

He said he finished in 2008 and it's 2012 and he still hasn't finished?

[setell]

He says he currently has two more courses left for his degree. I asked if he has plans to finish it, he says by the end of this year, since he needs program specific upper year courses which are only offered in the fall of this year.

No we did not outright ask if he graduated in the interview, nor did he say it. It never crossed my mind

However, in the online application system, there is a question that asks "Do you have a degree or diploma" and he checked the "YES" box. I asked him why he did this, and he said he didn't see an option to list that he had partially completed his degree or was working towards it, so he went with the next best option.

#1 and #2 were quite close. But what set #1 apart was his relevant work experience - he had more of it, and a better understanding of issues in the health policy field - or it seemed, I thought his degree helped him with that. #2 also has a degree, or so his resume says.

I think I am more in a grey area than my manager is about this potential hire. He sees things more black and white - a lie is a lie.

Ok he lied. Move to candidate #2. I can tolerate a implied message on the date in the resume but that specific question was purposely answered wrong. You either have a degree or not cause there is no grey area in that question for the application.

[Winkle]

I'm not a hiring manager, nor a manager of any kind and I don't run a business and would be horrible at it. But I think the way I would look at it is this. If the candidate had not listed a post-secondary education degree in their resume, would I still have looked at it? Would I still have considered them for the initial round of interviews etc.? Or would I have thrown their resume out as soon as I saw they didn't have a degree?

If I would had thrown it out at the start, then ethnically, I'll have to go with candidate number two.

[anyasok]

I would do nothing. Your school lied to you about your job prospects and your parents lied to you about what life is, so why should I care about something as trivial as a god damn candidate lying on his appliation?

[ahujie]

I'm not a hiring manager, nor a manager of any kind and I don't run a business and would be horrible at it. But I think the way I would look at it is this. If the candidate had not listed a post-secondary education degree in their resume, would I still have looked at it? Would I still have considered them for the initial round of interviews etc.? Or would I have thrown their resume out as soon as I saw they didn't have a degree?

If I would had thrown it out at the start, then ethnically, I'll have to go with candidate number two.

Normally, we would have looked at most people who apply, regardless of education. We're a non-profit, salary is relatively low compared to other sectors, so we're not flooded with hundreds of applications for a job posting.

The last few jobs we posted we got higher than normal amount of applicants, must be the economy. So even though the posting didn't say a degree was required, we decided to screen for people who had one as it would make things easier for us.

So to answer your question: No, I would not have looked at his resume if he didn't have a degree. However, a year ago, I probably would have considered him anyways.

This is the dilemma we're facing and I've discussed with my manager. We've hired staff with certificates, or had staff do part time school in the evenings while working for us, and they were great employees. We've also hired people with Bachelors or Masters who were morons. I personally have a degree, but it took me an extra year to finish it, and I found that employers were supportive of it - I finished my last credit while employed full-time. Someone extended this kindness and understanding to me, but then again, I was honest about my graduation date and degree requirements.

My gut is leaning towards candidate #2 now anyways. Final say is up to my manager of course. I personally just want to know if I need to move onto background check for candidate #2 as we must extend an offer, I need to call references etc. And of course I want to leave this job in time to start my new one, but also be around to train my replacement!

[eiad77]

I would do nothing. Your school lied to you about your job prospects and your parents lied to you about what life is, so why should I care about something as trivial as a god damn candidate lying on his appliation?

I sense a theme in your posts...

[anyasok]

I sense a theme in your posts...
How very astute of you.. lol

[renoldman]

He said he finished in 2008 and it's 2012 and he still hasn't finished?

In saying 2008, I think the person hoped that you wouldn't check if this was true or not.

Anyways, he says he is taking courses, why not ask for a transcript?

The transcript would show if he was taking courses and the fact that he is trying to complete it.

Because it could be the candidate covered a lie (he doesn't have a degree) with another one (not actually working towards the degree).

[Kohanz]

To me, honesty is one of the most important qualities you need in an employee. If you can't have trust in your organization, you will have failure.

Despite what you say initially, he was not honest. He knowingly misrepresented himself.

Based on that, I would not hire this person.

[ahujie]

In saying 2008, I think the person hoped that you wouldn't check if this was true or not.

Anyways, he says he is taking courses, why not ask for a transcript?

The transcript would show if he was taking courses and the fact that he is trying to complete it.

Because it could be the candidate covered a lie (he doesn't have a degree) with another one (not actually working towards the degree).

He offered to have his university fax a letter to us that says something to the effect of "John Doe has completed 18 out of 20 credits required for his program. he needs 2 more courses to be eligible to graduate"

The more I think I about it, the more turned off I am by the lie though.

[eiad77]

In saying 2008, I think the person hoped that you wouldn't check if this was true or not.

Anyways, he says he is taking courses, why not ask for a transcript?

The transcript would show if he was taking courses and the fact that he is trying to complete it.

Because it could be the candidate covered a lie (he doesn't have a degree) with another one (not actually working towards the degree).

I think you are probably right. I bet he tried to cover up a lie with another one.

[divx]

i was on the fence about this one but the posts had me convinced to go with #2.

[VifferFun]

Given that he checked the online application as "I have completed my degree", I am convinced that this guy is manipulating you. Just like the smooth-talking guy who scammed my grandparents into buying a garbage $2000 vaccuum cleaner they didn't need, this guy might come across as an excellent candidate. And why wouldn't he? If he lied about something as monumental as his degree, what else did he lie about? Perhaps he looks so excellent because he's lying about everything. What will he lie about in the future if you were to hire him?

Like the other poster, I would also question why he still hasn't finished his degree if he claims to have last been in school in 2008 and has only two courses remaining. I would also question why he would quit so close to the completion of his degree. If you look at his résumé, did he suddenly quit school and take on some amazing job in 2008?

I wouldn't go anywhere near this guy. Hiring a liar would be doing an injustice to all of the honest people out there.

[Kohanz]

He offered to have his university fax a letter to us that says something to the effect of "John Doe has completed 18 out of 20 credits required for his program. he needs 2 more courses to be eligible to graduate"

The more I think I about it, the more turned off I am by the lie though.

I would think about it this way - say you hire him and later on he is dishonest again in a way that negatively impacts the organization. At that point, you can't say that you didn't know he was capable of dishonesty.

Fool me once...

[rph]

I would also pass on him since he was definitely trying to mislead you. The reason for clicking the degree box might be ok if it was explained in a cover letter, or resume that he had most of a degree completed. Instead he added another misleading statement with the Bachelors 2008. You've lost your trust in the employee, get rid of him now rather than be stuck in the future "I knew we shouldn't have hired him", when he does something else dishonest.

[hvc]

He offered to have his university fax a letter to us that says something to the effect of "John Doe has completed 18 out of 20 credits required for his program. he needs 2 more courses to be eligible to graduate"

The more I think I about it, the more turned off I am by the lie though.

To accept that, I would request an official transcript from his university. I'd be curious to know the actual dates, as well as the courses completed.

Optional: Then I'd pick candidate #2. :lol:

[HoleyMoley]

My opinion: if you decide to overlook this and uphold the job offer, make sure everyone in your organization (that is already aware of this) is comfortable with the circumstances, and is prepared to treat this as a resolved issue.

It would not be helpful to either side if the candidate was greeted as "the one who lied on their resume", or off-side gossip.

[Zelig]

I would absolutely not hire him, on principle, regardless of his chances of being the best potential employee.


Everyone lies and over exaggerate on their resume.

I don't.

[abnormal1]

I think that's dead wrong. When you list a degree and a year on your resume it means you completed your degree during that year. If he didn't finish, he should have put in progress or expected date of completion.

It's like if I put: "President Bank of Montreal 2006" and then said oh I didn't actually say I was the president I just almost got hired.

But you could put "President Bank of Montreal 2016" and explain that its the expected date or in progress :)

[eshchan]

If honesty is a deal breaker for you then I guess there is no need for debate or this topic, so my assumption there is a wiggle room.

Personally, there is a couple of check box I need to clear before considering hiring him:
1) how long ago was his "supposed" graduation? If it was long ago then his education less relevant than this his work experience.

2) can you (in co-ordination with HR) change the rules of his employment, specifically double his probation period. The reason is 1) longer period to monitor him more and 2) punishment for his lying.

If point 1 and 2 is satisfy then I would hire him.

[ahujie]

My opinion: if you decide to overlook this and uphold the job offer, make sure everyone in your organization (that is already aware of this) is comfortable with the circumstances, and is prepared to treat this as a resolved issue.

It would not be helpful to either side if the candidate was greeted as "the one who lied on their resume", or off-side gossip.


The only people who know about this are myself and the manager. It's his call now. I've given my manager as much details about the situation and the candidates as I can. Even if we did hire him, this is not something I would disclose to his colleagues.

[abnormal1]

I say hire him. Good liars could be good for the business. Especially if its sales or marketing :)

[Clueless Fox]

i'd say hire him.

given he's the best candidate and completed education was not part of the job requirement, there's no reason not to. yeah, feel free to put him on probation and evaluate his performance but you're essentially gonna miss out on a good candidate because of something like this.

if he had checked off the 'not-completed' option for education his resume wouldn't even have been glanced at, which makes no sense, considering he seems to be deserving of the position. the education requirement is pretty ridiculous especially when you have people who clearly demonstrate the aptitude and/or experience to make up for the formal credentials. it's just an easy way for the employers to weed out people and make their own lives easier when recruiting.

disclosure: yes i am biased because i got my first full time job before my graduation as well. didn't affect my job performance. i completed school the year after.

[VifferFun]

i'd say hire him.

given he's the best candidate and completed education was not part of the job requirement, there's no reason not to. yeah, feel free to put him on probation and evaluate his performance but you're essentially gonna miss out on a good candidate because of something like this.

if he had checked off the 'not-completed' option for education his resume wouldn't even have been glanced at, which makes no sense, considering he seems to be deserving of the position. the education requirement is pretty ridiculous especially when you have people who clearly demonstrate the aptitude and/or experience to make up for the formal credentials. it's just an easy way for the employers to weed out people and make their own lives easier when recruiting.

disclosure: yes i am biased because i got my first full time job before my graduation as well. didn't affect my job performance. i completed school the year after.

The guy lied. He made no effort in the application process or in the interview to be sure that things were clear. One could easier make the argument that he made an effort to CONCEAL the lack of degree. He's manipulating the OP and doesn't deserve the position.

[ahujie]

If honesty is a deal breaker for you then I guess there is no need for debate or this topic, so my assumption there is a wiggle room.

Personally, there is a couple of check box I need to clear before considering hiring him:
1) how long ago was his "supposed" graduation? If it was long ago then his education less relevant than this his work experience.

2) can you (in co-ordination with HR) change the rules of his employment, specifically double his probation period. The reason is 1) longer period to monitor him more and 2) punishment for his lying.

If point 1 and 2 is satisfy then I would hire him.



1) His grad was supposedly in 2008. He said he started university in 2004. So he has been working for about 3.5 years now. This I know is legit, as I did the reference check with past employers.

2) I am the HR lol. We don't have a formal HR dept, we're a small non-profit. I am hiring for my replacement, along with my manager. If the decision were up to me, I would make it a condition of his employment that he fulfill his degree requirements to match what is on his application by end of his probation period, and provide proof of graduation before he is considered for pay raises, or benefits. He is still a young guy, about 26. he has time to turn this lie around and redeem himself. But then again, we don't owe him anything. I know if this turned up on a background check for a large company, he would be blacklisted right away.

Like I said earlier, he could have just given me a fake diploma from one of those diploma mills, but I give him points for telling me the truth.

[VifferFun]

Like I said earlier, he could have just given me a fake diploma from one of those diploma mills, but I give him points for telling me the truth.

You are more forgiving than Jesus himself.

He intentionally checked the box indicating that he has a degree. When you called him on it, he quickly made up a story about "not knowing what to select". He seems gifted in lying, and I suspect this isn't the first (or last) time, especially if he gets away with it . . .

[chedo009]

Well on his application and resume it says: Honours Bach of Arts, 2008. he lists his majors as Sociology and Health Studies, which are areas relevant to our organization. In his interview he mentioned how his undergrad education and courses taught him about the field.

We've started doing more thorough background checks, just beyond references now. In the past, we've hired some really incompetent people who it turns out exaggerated claims on their resumes, and could not live up to job performance expectations. This guy's experience and references are great, but this lie feels like a betrayal. I was rooting for him once we got to know him, and genuinely like him, as did the team.

It is in the hands of my manager now I guess. It sucks because we spent two weeks interviewing many people, through 2 or 3 rounds of interviews. As a small organization without a formal HR dept or budget for it, it takes a significant toll on our time and resources when this happens.

Your dilemma should have been no dilemma at all if the 3rd party your company hired, performed the complete background check, that is including the Education background check instead of a basic one, which includes only the criminal/credit check. The complete background check on average costs about 50$ more, that is about 120$ compared to 70$ as per invoicing I saw from Backchek inc, a reputable firm used by most recruiting agencies and firms. Either the 3rd party firm you hired failed to transmit the full results if the complete background check, or they were not hire to perform one it in the first place. The latter is a more likely explanation as your small company seems to have had bad experience in the past with selected candidates. This fact demonstrates that the company clearly has little knowledge about the entire vetting process due mainly to lack of the dedicated HR Dept but mostly due to lack of interest in staff management or sheer incompetency on that level. This is proven by the fact your manager gave you, as the one with least real concern & on whom the decision has no impact due to your departure, the task of hiring your own replacement. If the next candidate proves to be a bad apple "again", who do you think will be held accountable for that, on top of all salary expenses in terms of hours spent for this hiring process?Guess who?Nobody!
The proper thing to do as in any in small firm that has limited staff resources to perform the hiring process is to hire a recruiting agency who does the preliminary screening process before the final interview process as the vetting process including the complete background check if needed, depending of the nature that the position to be filled. The failure to so might have severe negative impact on the organizations operations as well as potentially important security concerns.

[ahujie]

You are more forgiving than Jesus himself.

He intentionally checked the box indicating that he has a degree. When you called him on it, he quickly made up a story about "not knowing what to select". He seems gifted in lying, and I suspect this isn't the first (or last) time, especially if he gets away with it . . .

Oh no I don't forgive him by any means at all. I went from shocked, to confused, to feeling betrayed, and now anger. It's been a waste of my time too, getting his paperwork ready, his background check etc. I feel bad for him too, because this lack of degree will surely be a career barrier going forward, unless he actually finishes it.

[ahujie]

Your dilemma should have been no dilemma at all if the 3rd party your company hired, performed the complete background check, that is including the Education background check instead of a basic one, which includes only the criminal/credit check. The complete background check on average costs about 50$ more, that is about 120$ compared to 70$ as per invoicing I saw from Backchek inc, a reputable firm used by most recruiting agencies and firms. Either the 3rd party firm you hired failed to transmit the full results if the complete background check, or they were not hire to perform one it in the first place. The latter is a more likely explanation as your small company seems to have had bad experience in the past with selected candidates. This fact demonstrates that the company clearly has little knowledge about the entire vetting process due mainly to lack of the dedicated HR Dept but mostly due to lack of interest in staff management or sheer incompetency on that level. This is proven by the fact your manager gave you, as the one with least real concern & on whom the decision has no impact due to your departure, the task of hiring your own replacement. If the next candidate proves to be a bad apple "again", who do you think will be held accountable for that, on top of all salary expenses in terms of hours spent for this hiring process?Guess who?Nobody!
The proper thing to do as in any in small firm that has limited staff resources to perform the hiring process is to hire a recruiting agency who does the preliminary screening process before the final interview process as the vetting process including the complete background check if needed, depending of the nature that the position to be filled. The failure to so might have severe negative impact on the organizations operations as well as potentially important security concerns.

Yes, you are correct, we always have a third party do the basic criminal/credit check. I called his references myself because I know this job better than anyone, and knew which questions to ask to see if he had the relevant experience he claimed to have. He did - and everyone spoke well of his work habits, and could speak to his abilities as they related to the responsibilities of his potential new position.

And no, we do not have as many bad apples as you seem to think we do. I was referring to cases where I've realized that degree or no degree, some people can still be incompetent. I think that exists in any organization. Moreover, I meant that we have plenty of competent, hard working staff without a university degree - some have college diplomas, subject area certificates, or finished their degrees after starting work.

And I really do care about my successor going forward, as I obviously want to maintain a good relationship with my colleagues, and not screw them over by burdening them with someone not up to the job.

[chedo009]

1) His grad was supposedly in 2008. He said he started university in 2004. So he has been working for about 3.5 years now. This I know is legit, as I did the reference check with past employers.

2) I am the HR lol. We don't have a formal HR dept, we're a small non-profit. I am hiring for my replacement, along with my manager. If the decision were up to me, I would make it a condition of his employment that he fulfill his degree requirements to match what is on his application by end of his probation period, and provide proof of graduation before he is considered for pay raises, or benefits. He is still a young guy, about 26. he has time to turn this lie around and redeem himself. But then again, we don't owe him anything. I know if this turned up on a background check for a large company, he would be blacklisted right away.

Like I said earlier, he could have just given me a fake diploma from one of those diploma mills, but I give him points for telling me the truth.

You seem to waste a lot of time thinking through in order make of the whole issue of him potentially lying on his application somehow seem as a GREY area.On the contrary, it's entirely a BLACK & WHITE area, provided that your company hire a reputable firm to perform a complete background check, including the Education background check, the truth will come out without him having to persuade you that he'll make sure that you get faxed this & that or any another BS story. You are clearly letting yourself being manipulated by a someone who leads you into to a grey "emotional" zone on his terms and who maybe just be a desperate job seeker with nothing-to-lose mentality or maybe a conman who might be a high risk liability for your small firm.

[chedo009]

He says he currently has two more courses left for his degree. I asked if he has plans to finish it, he says by the end of this year, since he needs program specific upper year courses which are only offered in the fall of this year.

No we did not outright ask if he graduated in the interview, nor did he say it. It never crossed my mind

However, in the online application system, there is a question that asks "Do you have a degree or diploma" and he checked the "YES" box. I asked him why he did this, and he said he didn't see an option to list that he had partially completed his degree or was working towards it, so he went with the next best option.

#1 and #2 were quite close. But what set #1 apart was his relevant work experience - he had more of it, and a better understanding of issues in the health policy field - or it seemed, I thought his degree helped him with that. #2 also has a degree, or so his resume says.

I think I am more in a grey area than my manager is about this potential hire. He sees things more black and white - a lie is a lie.

You obviously have little or no experience with a vetting process upon hiring potential candidates in which your emotions & gut feeling can left out and where only objectivity counts. Not only that, but you have an additional burden in the sense that you are in a conflictual position where you have to hire someone a.s.p in order to sufficiently train them before you leave.If I was you.Your manager made a mistake of delegating you this task which he seems to have corrected by taking it over.If I was you, I would concentrate in documenting in writing my work processes as best I could for the next hire so that only you relieve yourself of that burden but also gain points with your manager that you can use in future reference.

[devil2k]

Let me say that I have looked at hiring issues for many large firms in Canada and US and our view was that whatever is listed on the resume is 100% and can be backed up. If he says he graduated with a degree and in fact didn't, I would not only fire/revoke the offer to the guy, but look at him to reimburse the 3rd party incidental costs you did in order to screen this guy. You relied on good faith and paid companies money to do background checks, and then found out that he didn't graduate. Why piss around with this guy when there are many others who would be happy to work and get turned down because someone lied on their resume. Sue this bugger and he will learn not to do this again. Turn a blind eye, and who is to say that he does not try this again?

I would also question how good those companies that do checking are if they didn't uncover that this guy faked his graduation.

+1

If this stunt he pulled is considered okay, then next time I apply for a job I'm going to write:
MBA, Harvard (20xx)

When asked, I'll just say I intended to goto Harvard for MBA but just never got to it. Considering how many qualified candidates you overlooked because of this guy, I'd go after him for all the costs involved. I might even go as far as calling his reference again to let them know that the guy they recommended lied about graduating. This guy lied before you even hire him, what's the chance of him lying again after he gets the job?

[aaaaaa]

So, the issue here is honesty. Have you guys covered a bunch of other questions relating to that aspect of this candidate? If so, did they have the answers you were looking for, or did they not? Does the fact that someone is dishonest once mean that you can never trust them again? (The answer, btw, depends on what they're trusted to do in the first place). So I would work out the answers to those questions before I decided either way on hiring them.

That said, lots of people need to list that they have done schooling, but not got the credential at the end. I've had to do this, and I took the approach of listing the program name (ie Bachelor of Arts Program), and the dates (ie 2008 to Present). Then in my cover letter I noted that I was 90% done, and have completed all the relevant courses for the job position. If a company discounts you because you are 90% done, that's a loss to the both of you usually, but completely up to them. I have definitely seen that a lot of people create misleading (but technically truthful) resumes, but if and when you do that you need to make sure you clarify things at the interview. I personally am not a fan of those types of resumes, but there definitely are a lot of companies where unless you make it past the initial screening you have no chance.

In terms of the OP's situation, here is the thing: If your company wanted to hire someone who had lots of relevant work experience, excels at teamwork, and gets along great with your company culture, then maybe this candidate is still a good choice. But your company chose to specifically filter out those who did not have degree's, so even if that was not the best choice on your company's part, it *was* their decision, and the fact that this guy cheated to get around it isn't cool. For all you know there's tons of other guys who are exactly the same as this person which you did not interview, except they have more integrity and simply did not lie regarding their education.

[chedo009]

+1

If this stunt he pulled is considered okay, then next time I apply for a job I'm going to write:
MBA, Harvard (20xx)

When asked, I'll just say I intended to goto Harvard for MBA but just never got to it. Considering how many qualified candidates you overlooked because of this guy, I'd go after him for all the costs involved. I might even go as far as calling his reference again to let them know that the guy they recommended lied about graduating. This guy lied before you even hire him, what's the chance of him lying again after he gets the job?

There is no jurisprudence for legal recourse that firms normally use in the case of CV/reference falsification to gain advantage. In my years of dealing with recruiting agencies and many previuos employers, I have never seen a legal disclaimer on an actual job application or authorization for reference that states a possibility of any legal pursuit other than immediate employment termination which is general, the only measure that companies would usually take.

[chedo009]

There is no jurisprudence for legal recourse that firms normally use in the case of CV/reference falsification to gain advantage. In my years of dealing with recruiting agencies and many previuos employers, I have never seen a legal disclaimer on an actual job application or authorization for reference that states a possibility of any legal pursuit other than immediate employment termination which is general, the only measure that companies would usually take.

...to add to my previous comment...there is no legal pursuit on the sole basis of CV/reference falsification as the firms are held fully accountable in the result of performing the background check.In that regard, any failure or lacking in the vetting process that has negative consequences will be held against them.

[weedb0y]

In my experience at various fortune 500 firms, I routinely deal with idiots with top notch degrees and stellar transcripts. Experience trumps all and this shows dedication.

Will he do the work properly and excel at it? Yes, then hire him. The job does not require a degree from your viewpoint.

Most execs lie.

[Sylvestre]

I see this another way - there's a runner-up candidate out there that likely did put the effort into finishing school and he unfairly lost the job to someone who misled (i.e. lied) about his credentials. You can argue the winner shouldn't be punished etc. but what you are actually doing is rewarding him for not playing fair, as well as punishing the runner-up.

The guy should not have listed he has a degree and you should now fire him.

[sillysimms]

At the company I work for, this would not even be discussed as after this was discovered he absolutely would not be hired. He misrepresented himself both on his resume and outright lied on the online application (the next best option if you have a partially completed degree is not to select that you have a completed degree!)


Oh no I don't forgive him by any means at all. I went from shocked, to confused, to feeling betrayed, and now anger. It's been a waste of my time too, getting his paperwork ready, his background check etc. I feel bad for him too, because this lack of degree will surely be a career barrier going forward, unless he actually finishes it.

He obviously feels the same way or he wouldn't have lied about it...the only question remains is whether it will only be a barrier going forward or will it be a barrier to this job? Will he learn to be honest or will he learn that lying on a resume and during the online application process actually got him hired?

I don't know why you feel bad for him. He can complete his degree if he wants to or he could have been honest. There are hundreds of people out there with actual completed degrees that could honestly put that information on their resume who would be happy for a job.

[gnuman]

There are plenty of people who lied on their resume. I, for one, don't. I listed I went to university but left but the real reason is not what I'm going to say but I did attend never indicated that I completed the degree.

You know I would take someone's skill and personality over a piece of paper any day of the week because there's a lot of BS out there when it comes to a computing field. Requires A+ and all these other waste of time certs that doesn't prove you know anything.

You are hiring your replacement, some people would've just not cared and hired the person because you're not going to work for that place any more.

[ahujie]

Well we've extended an offer to Candidate #2 conditional on her passing the background check next week - these were the same terms I laid out for candidate #1 earlier this week. It was always a conditional offer, based on a successful background check.

Revoked the offer for candidate #1, as the trust, honesty and integrity issues are too much to ignore. Wished him best of luck, advised him to finish his degree ASAP as he is still young, and it's never too late to go back to school.

This was my first time going through something like this - I hope to never deal with it again! Thanks for your opinions - it certainly helps when I can look at an issue from at all angles. I think I was just in pure shock this morning when the guy told me he had no degree. Made me feel really stupid and question my judgement in interviewing and selecting him. Then again, all I have to go by before the background check is their word on their resume.

I will see if my manager is willing to spend a bit more $$ for the full package background check which includes education, employment in addition to criminal and credit check.

Have a great weekend everyone!

[eudaii]

do not hire this lying, deceitful person.

edit: good job. :)

[sillysimms]

I'm glad you made the decision you did.

Also, it is commendable that you have such an interest in this company when you are leaving. A lot of people couldn't care less when they are moving on.

[devil2k]

There is no jurisprudence for legal recourse that firms normally use in the case of CV/reference falsification to gain advantage. In my years of dealing with recruiting agencies and many previuos employers, I have never seen a legal disclaimer on an actual job application or authorization for reference that states a possibility of any legal pursuit other than immediate employment termination which is general, the only measure that companies would usually take.

I'm no law expert, not even close but look at No. 5 of this article. This is a well-known case at our local university. She was sentenced for 2 years minus one day I believe.

http://www.degreescout.com/online-education-news/defrauding-education-a-look-at-notorious-impostors-fakers-or-otherwise-frauds


5. Lana Nguyen, fraud and lousy professor.

Game:

Lana Ngyuen had been divorced from her husband, Hien Nguyen, for six years when she decided to apply for a position teaching software engineering at the University of Regina — using his PhD. She submitted her resume under the name Lana H. Nguyen, leading the university to believe that she and Hien were the same person. Nguyen taught at the university for two years, but there were consistent complaints from students about her teaching methods and her lack of understanding of the subject matter. A performance review in 2001 raised questions about her qualifications, and the resulting investigation revealed her fraud.

Outcome:

Nguyen was asked to resign and faced three charges of fraud, to which she pleaded guilty. According to her lawyer, Nguyen maintained that she deserved the credit for her husband’s degree, because “she feels that she earned her ex-husband’s PhD by doing the research for his PhD thesis.”

[ahujie]

I'm glad you made the decision you did.

Also, it is commendable that you have such an interest in this company when you are leaving. A lot of people couldn't care less when they are moving on.

Thanks. I really like the organization; they do valuable, interesting work and I got some great experience while I was there. I would stay, but it's small so growth potential is limited. Also, a lot of my colleagues are more like friends now and I will probably see them after I leave, so I don't want the unpleasant memory of me hiring someone who screws them over to linger with them lol.

I know for some people on this forum it was very black and white - he lied, don't hire him. But like I said, a year ago we wouldn't have screened out people without degrees, nor did the job posting state a degree is a requirement. Our online questionnaire does ask "do you have a degree/diploma?" but we ask a bunch of standard screening questions for all jobs.

[nyik]

thats what the NO option is for, partially completed means no degree.

This.

I would rather hire someone with less experience and honest, than with more experience and dishonest.

Now having said that, your organization does not require a degree. So, to me, falsification of an answer to an illegitimate question, makes the question and answer moot. It seems like it's more of a question to see what the field of applicants are like.

I'd suggest revamping your hiring questionnaire to reflect exactly what you're looking for. If the job is not mandated to have a degree, don't ask that question.

[TheFinalWord]

If he posted in his resume summary that he is 'hard working, quick thinking, and dishonest' would you have interviewed him?

If he's lying about this, then he doesn't respect you or your employer. And while you can check out a lot of things, how much of his interview was BS as well?

[4seasonscentre]

If I would had thrown it out at the start, then ethnically, I'll have to go with candidate number two.

Ethnically, or ethically? ;-)

anywho, I know this issue is resolved but I think it is clear that he lied to you. Perhaps it is unfair that those without a degree were screened out, but allowing this guy the job sets a precedent and tells candidate it's ok to lie in the hopes the interviewer will like you enough to forgive you.

The candidate had ample opportunity to explain his situation and didn't.

I consider those that have finished all their courses with the marks in to have earned their degrees. Convocation is just a formality.

[Nucks]

I was in a very similar positron (candidate) as I was two courses short for degree.
But I have a diploma so I wasnt lying for that question and I also put my completion date as later that year, though I don't think they noticed because they assumed I had a degree and were surprised when I said I didn't.

I ended up getting the job, but I never did lie to them so it's a but different

[dutchca]

I didn't read all the responses.

Here is my take - guy made a big mistake, but the degree is not necessary for the job. If he is far and away the best candidate you interviewed, then I would give him a chance under the following conditions:

1) He starts at a salary lower than he would have got with the degree
2) He is on probation for 1 year (instead of most likely 6 months)
3) A condition of employment that he obtains the degree, paid for on his own and done on his own time within a set time frame

Once he gets the degree, passes probation gets the degree etc. give him a raise.

[komal]

You made the right decision.

I remember this exact question coming up in HR class, years ago. Not exactly, it was about a long term employee who was very good but who was revealed to have lied. You still have to let the person go.

In those instances you lose all trust, and the person has to go. It also sends the wrong message to accept somebody who doesn't play by the rules and who can get by with something as severe as lying. There will almost always be some mistrust in the future as well, people will wonder if this guy is lying about anything else, and he might be.

To those saying the guy didn't lie, you are entirely wrong. If the guy was being accurate, he would have either said 'In progress' next to the bachelors or he would have said 'University of X - 2008', but when he puts down bachelors, he is clearly indicating that he HAS a bachelors degree.

I am surprised you asked for his degree though. Good thing you did, you did a good job of being thorough.

[Conquistador]

Well we've extended an offer to Candidate #2 conditional on her passing the background check next week - these were the same terms I laid out for candidate #1 earlier this week. It was always a conditional offer, based on a successful background check.

Revoked the offer for candidate #1, as the trust, honesty and integrity issues are too much to ignore. Wished him best of luck, advised him to finish his degree ASAP as he is still young, and it's never too late to go back to school.

This was my first time going through something like this - I hope to never deal with it again! Thanks for your opinions - it certainly helps when I can look at an issue from at all angles. I think I was just in pure shock this morning when the guy told me he had no degree. Made me feel really stupid and question my judgement in interviewing and selecting him. Then again, all I have to go by before the background check is their word on their resume.

I will see if my manager is willing to spend a bit more $$ for the full package background check which includes education, employment in addition to criminal and credit check.

Have a great weekend everyone!

I think you made the right call. To me this wasn't a dilemma at all.

[Biff88]

In this day and age of information, I still cannot believe there is no central registry for Universties/Colleges where one can verify degrees or diplomas of individuals. It doesn't have to be open to the general public but should be available to bona fide employers. Certain professional organizations have this and it would make lying about education a moot point.

[Mark77]

In this day and age of information, I still cannot believe there is no central registry for Universties/Colleges where one can verify degrees or diplomas of individuals. It doesn't have to be open to the general public but should be available to bona fide employers. Certain professional organizations have this and it would make lying about education a moot point.

The convocation program for my particular university is available online, and you can type my name into Google and see that I, indeed, was awarded the degrees I claim on my resume.

As other posters have stated, there can be discrepancies between job roles claimed on a resume narrative and those verified with a HR staffer or a job description -- because often job descriptions are not a perfect match to the role actually performed. However, completion of certain training courses, university degrees, etc., is not a subjective question, but rather, a question of fact.

[angryconsumer]

However, in the online application system, there is a question that asks "Do you have a degree or diploma" and he checked the "YES" box. I asked him why he did this, and he said he didn't see an option to list that he had partially completed his degree or was working towards it, so he went with the next best option.

#1 and #2 were quite close. But what set #1 apart was his relevant work experience - he had more of it, and a better understanding of issues in the health policy field - or it seemed, I thought his degree helped him with that. #2 also has a degree, or so his resume says.

I think I am more in a grey area than my manager is about this potential hire. He sees things more black and white - a lie is a lie.

"Yes" is not the "next best option." There is only one correct answer to the question he was asked, and that answer for him is "No." He did not check "No." He is liar. There is no grey area here.

He is also a liar because he deliberately misrepresented his education on his resume, to give the impression that he has a degree when really he does not.

Why would you want a liar working for you? His behaviour is insidious and unjustifiable. Do not look for excuses to justify it. There are none.

[mavrik13]

I would not hire him. No chance - if he feels that he can lie about his education (for close to 4 years!), who knows what else he is OK lying about.

[anothefoo]

Here's my 2 cents, from someone that was a drop out:

I studied 4 years at a Uni, never graduated. I still (for now) put my 4 years of that period down on my resume. But I don't write degree or bachelor, I simply put the name of the university and the years I spent there. And when asked, I just say I dropped out or 'Not completed' when filling out a form.

I understand why he felt it was okay to lie – depending on his field and how alot of media romanticizing some rich people getting rich/successful without ever finishing school, maybe he felt the piece of paper doesn't hold importance/value as it used to (which I agree). But he also knows how traditional companies/HR still are, judging people by the piece of paper. Maybe he was hoping to get his foot through the door and let him the personal interview show what he's capable of and/or impress the interviewers face to face.

Now I'm assuming he's young so mistakes are expected. Putting him on the right course is a good move.

But I wouldn't have dismissed him outright. If you really felt a connection, I'd spend more time with the candidate, have him speak with the team he will speaking with. We were all young, we all make mistakes, flat out dismissing him can be cruel. Our world isn't black and white, no matter how some of you think it is.

It's unfortunate this happened, just hope he can bounce back quick. (No doubt he has learned from it)

[ahujie]

Here's my 2 cents, from someone that was a drop out:

I studied 4 years at a Uni, never graduated. I still (for now) put my 4 years of that period down on my resume. But I don't write degree or bachelor, I simply put the name of the university and the years I spent there. And when asked, I just say I dropped out or 'Not completed' when filling out a form.

I understand why he felt it was okay to lie – depending on his field and how alot of media romanticizing some rich people getting rich/successful without ever finishing school, maybe he felt the piece of paper doesn't hold importance/value as it used to (which I agree). But he also knows how traditional companies/HR still are, judging people by the piece of paper. Maybe he was hoping to get his foot through the door and let him the personal interview show what he's capable of and/or impress the interviewers face to face.

Now I'm assuming he's young so mistakes are expected. Putting him on the right course is a good move.

But I wouldn't have dismissed him outright. If you really felt a connection, I'd spend more time with the candidate, have him speak with the team he will speaking with. We were all young, we all make mistakes, flat out dismissing him can be cruel. Our world isn't black and white, no matter how some of you think it is.

It's unfortunate this happened, just hope he can bounce back quick. (No doubt he has learned from it)

I didn't dismiss/fire him. He never worked for us - I just revoked the job offer. I doubt it will hurt his career/references as my organization will never be a reference for him as he was never an employee here. For all I know, he could still keep applying to jobs and keep saying he has a degree.

It's up to him to finish the degree going forward.

But I hear you on the romanticism of a degree vs. practical work experience. I respect the way you approach your situation and are honest about your credentials. If he had done the same thing as you, and not lied twice in his application (once by checking the "yes" box on the questionnaire, and again by listing Bach of Arts, 2008 on his resume) we probably would have hired him.

[tylaw83]

Let me say that I have looked at hiring issues for many large firms in Canada and US and our view was that whatever is listed on the resume is 100% and can be backed up. If he says he graduated with a degree and in fact didn't, I would not only fire/revoke the offer to the guy, but look at him to reimburse the 3rd party incidental costs you did in order to screen this guy. You relied on good faith and paid companies money to do background checks, and then found out that he didn't graduate. Why piss around with this guy when there are many others who would be happy to work and get turned down because someone lied on their resume. Sue this bugger and he will learn not to do this again. Turn a blind eye, and who is to say that he does not try this again?

I would also question how good those companies that do checking are if they didn't uncover that this guy faked his graduation.

I seriously doubt you have any experience in the matter. No big company/firm would EVER waste time, energy, and resources to sue for something so trivial. In the end, it's a business and not personal. If I had an HR manager waste my time in such a way going on a righteous crusade, I'd talk to the HR director about having another HR manager handle my cases. Whether you are part of the HR group or on the legal side of things, you are a SUPPORT group.

We don't go around teaching lessons.

[tylaw83]

+1

If this stunt he pulled is considered okay, then next time I apply for a job I'm going to write:
MBA, Harvard (20xx)

When asked, I'll just say I intended to goto Harvard for MBA but just never got to it. Considering how many qualified candidates you overlooked because of this guy, I'd go after him for all the costs involved. I might even go as far as calling his reference again to let them know that the guy they recommended lied about graduating. This guy lied before you even hire him, what's the chance of him lying again after he gets the job?

Except he could sue you AND your company to hell and back, after which your company would instantly terminate you for costing them 50k+. In fact, your company could probably sue you for misrepresenting them and recover their costs too.

Smart.

[tylaw83]

I didn't dismiss/fire him. He never worked for us - I just revoked the job offer. I doubt it will hurt his career/references as my organization will never be a reference for him as he was never an employee here. For all I know, he could still keep applying to jobs and keep saying he has a degree.

It's up to him to finish the degree going forward.

But I hear you on the romanticism of a degree vs. practical work experience. I respect the way you approach your situation and are honest about your credentials. If he had done the same thing as you, and not lied twice in his application (once by checking the "yes" box on the questionnaire, and again by listing Bach of Arts, 2008 on his resume) we probably would have hired him.

Or even just check the yes box and clarify on the "Other comments" box of the application form or at the start of the interview...

Instead, he intentionally mislead you. What's funny is that you all thought he was being honest when he told you he didn't have a degree upon being asked. He was just too lazy to find a decent degree forger. There are a TON of people who lie and fail to follow-through due to laziness. It's not because of a newfound penchant for honesty. If he had a forged degree in front of him, you could bet your horses that he would have used it.

[IceBlueShoes]

I didn't read all the responses.

Here is my take - guy made a big mistake, but the degree is not necessary for the job. If he is far and away the best candidate you interviewed, then I would give him a chance under the following conditions:

1) He starts at a salary lower than he would have got with the degree
2) He is on probation for 1 year (instead of most likely 6 months)
3) A condition of employment that he obtains the degree, paid for on his own and done on his own time within a set time frame

Once he gets the degree, passes probation gets the degree etc. give him a raise.

Not a bad compromise, but what if you lose 6months where you could've had someone else? Now you have to restart. But you're giving the person a 2nd chance for lieing. Besides, if he's lied to one employer, he likely done to others.

Besides if he was really remorseful, he'd have owned up to it during the initial interview.

[fuzzy_avocado]

I would just say, "Hey man, was it wrong of me to assume this degree you listed on your resume is completed?" and then tell him the predicament you're facing.

[codeleader]

If I were you, and you think the candidate is the right fit, then go for it. I personally never exaggerate my resume, which might explain my lack of interview opportunities... he did what he did to get a foot in the door, I guess kudos to him. If I caught this initially, then I wouldn't even bother proceeding as I would see this as an intentional act to deceive. But at the end of the day, if that's the only glitch in the resume, you're looking for someone qualified and you've found him.

[coldpower27]

Honesty and Integrity are important things, I say you did the right thing. You just can't trust him.

[gman]

The guy lied. The guy would not tell the truth until the moment OP asked for the proof. He did not volunteer the information. He was forced to tell the truth. When one said he is Bachelor of Art, it means he graduated. Otherwise, you won't get the title of Bachelor.

How did OP evaluate this guy was qualified of the job? Based on what?
Resume? You can't trust his resume.
Talk? One can sweat talk and fool others.
Hand on demonstration? I doubt that happened.
Reference? Okay, this may get somewhere but well, it does not necessary reflect the real truth.

I would not hire this person.

[drey2k]

Everyone lies on their resume, even your mommy.

If the guy is competent enough to do the job, give it to him.

Education is extremely overrated, and if he has completed the bulk of his degree, the two courses he has left are basically useless anyways.

Everyone lies all the time, why is honesty important all the sudden?

Give me a fukn break.

[elyna1]

I say, do not hire him.

I have made the error of exaggerating on my resumes in the past, but I know now that it only comes back to bite you in the ***** . Never have I lied about having a degree though. When I was in University, I put "working towards..." my degree on my resume and he should have done the same. He didn't, which makes him a liar. The point is, his resume was chosen out of many resumes because you were mislead into thinking he completed his degree. I completely agree with what hightech says. He wasted your time and resources and he may seem like a great guy, but you don't even know if he could do the work. Who even knows he is going to graduate?

It feels like you were let down by this employee. If he was so honest, why didn't he tell you right away that he hadn't completed all of his courses? It just feels like he only mentioned it because you asked him for his transcript but if you didn't, he would've continued to mislead the company into thinking he had his degree all along. I think integrity speaks miles about someone's character.

Anyway, seeing as this was a week ago... was the decision made?

[sillysimms]

Anyway, seeing as this was a week ago... was the decision made?

Posted earlier in the thread:


Well we've extended an offer to Candidate #2 conditional on her passing the background check next week - these were the same terms I laid out for candidate #1 earlier this week. It was always a conditional offer, based on a successful background check.

Revoked the offer for candidate #1, as the trust, honesty and integrity issues are too much to ignore. Wished him best of luck, advised him to finish his degree ASAP as he is still young, and it's never too late to go back to school.

This was my first time going through something like this - I hope to never deal with it again! Thanks for your opinions - it certainly helps when I can look at an issue from at all angles. I think I was just in pure shock this morning when the guy told me he had no degree. Made me feel really stupid and question my judgement in interviewing and selecting him. Then again, all I have to go by before the background check is their word on their resume.

I will see if my manager is willing to spend a bit more $$ for the full package background check which includes education, employment in addition to criminal and credit check.

Have a great weekend everyone!

[tylaw83]

Everyone lies on their resume, even your mommy.

If the guy is competent enough to do the job, give it to him.

Education is extremely overrated, and if he has completed the bulk of his degree, the two courses he has left are basically useless anyways.

Everyone lies all the time, why is honesty important all the sudden?

Give me a fukn break.

Why?

You want someone whos either honest or smart enough to lie and not get caught.
You never want to hire someone whos dishonest AND dumb.

[vaportrails]

In this day and age of information, I still cannot believe there is no central registry for Universties/Colleges where one can verify degrees or diplomas of individuals. It doesn't have to be open to the general public but should be available to bona fide employers. Certain professional organizations have this and it would make lying about education a moot point.

I agree completely with this and I think someone on this forum has gone so far to suggest this sort of database to the provincial government. However, there are privacy issues which make this impossible to push through, which is ridiculous because an employer can essentially deny you a job because you didn't pay your Rogers bill on time (credit check) and make that a condition of employment, but when it comes to verifying credentials, they are hogtied.

It also scares me a little that employers aren't asking for a copy of the diploma and transcript during the vetting process. I find it really strange that this candidate almost got through. I mean, crap, it took 26 posts in this thread before someone said, "Hey stupid, ask for a transcript". I mean, d'uh.. How difficult is it to ask for some sort of proof? Can it be faked? Sure.. but not easily and it's a major hoop to jump through that seems like such a no-brainer. You complain about how expensive background checks are.. but you won't even push the cost on to the candidate to have a sealed and notarized transcript mailed directly from the school to an employer? That's just bad business sense.

[NuclearBlast]

+1

If this stunt he pulled is considered okay, then next time I apply for a job I'm going to write:
MBA, Harvard (20xx)

When asked, I'll just say I intended to goto Harvard for MBA but just never got to it. Considering how many qualified candidates you overlooked because of this guy, I'd go after him for all the costs involved. I might even go as far as calling his reference again to let them know that the guy they recommended lied about graduating. This guy lied before you even hire him, what's the chance of him lying again after he gets the job?
Are you serious? How exactly do you picture this "going after him"? Take him to court? Send him to collection agency? Lol, really?!? And what do you think your real chances of winning are? You guys are acting like this is the first human on the planet to lie/embelish on his resume - wow, I'm so shocked, I can't believe it, he should pay for the costs, etc. :D
All companies lie on their job posts, all candidates lie on their resumes. Should people go after company X for thier costs and lost opportunities because they said in their ad "great work environment" and it turned out to be a back-stabbing-coworkers-incompetent-managers-high-turnover chaos?