$100-billion on health care, nothing to show for it: study

[DearSummer]

$100-billion on health care, nothing to show for it: study
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/21/100-billion-on-health-care-nothing-to-show-for-it-study/


The Canadian health-care system has proven to be a black hole for federal tax dollars over the past decade or so, says a new report.

Despite hikes in federal transfers to provinces for health care that were $97.6-billion beyond what was needed to account for inflation and population growth in the past 13 years, there has been little improvement in access to care for Canadians, says the Fraser Institute study released Wednesday.

As an example, the report noted the time it takes to get treatment from a specialist after a referral from a general physician. The median time was 19 weeks last year, up almost 60% from 1997.

“Canadians should have expected the health-care system to improve, and it’s troubling that there has not been an improvement in spite of this very large increase in health-care expenditures since 1997-98,” said Nadeem Esmail, a senior fellow at the Fraser Institute and co-author of the study.

He said the Canada Health Act is constraining provinces from improving the efficiency of their systems. Allowing people to pay for quicker access to care, and more private-sector involvement in health insurance and delivery, while still ensuring universal access for all, are among the measures Mr. Esmail recommends.

Canada's healthcare system is going to collapse at the rate we are going. The demographic shift we are experiencing and increasing healthcare delivery costs are continuing to burden the system. At what point do we take a serious look at reform? It's only a matter of time until the service-level and cost is unacceptable for a first world country and far too costly.

[vlado416]

What do you mean nothing to show?
I see doctors and other "health care providers" buying big houses , cars and other stuff . That's something to show off.
I am just not aware that "health care" is about "health", it's a business and since they can end lives and get away with it
it's a very profitable business.

[particleman]

Big surprise, the study was done by the ultra right wing Frasier Institute. I don't even bother reading articles past seeing that name anymore.

[kasianman]

$100-billion on health care, nothing to show for it: study
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/21/100-billion-on-health-care-nothing-to-show-for-it-study/

Canada's healthcare system is going to collapse at the rate we are going. The demographic shift we are experiencing and increasing healthcare delivery costs are continuing to burden the system. At what point do we take a serious look at reform? It's only a matter of time until the service-level and cost is unacceptable for a first world country and far too costly.

What do you suggest that we do?
Health care professionals in Canada are already getting paid less than the US private health care counter-parts.

[Hitman21]

What else would you expect when the government is in charge of healthcare, they will continue to make it more expensive and reduce the quality and eventually bankrupt the country

[kasianman]

What else would you expect when the government is in charge of healthcare, they will continue to make it more expensive and reduce the quality and eventually bankrupt the country

Health care more expensive when privatized
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa022033

[Hitman21]

Health care more expensive when privatized
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa022033

All you have to do is just look at how the Canadian health system is costing more and more every year, its unsustainable

[kasianman]

All you have to do is just look at how the Canadian health system is costing more and more every year, its unsustainable

Source?

Canada’s health system beats U.S. in cost and results
http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20071205/

Health care cost comparison of US & Canada
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0289.htm

Health care administration in the United States and Canada: micromanagement, macro costs.
"Reducing U.S. administrative costs to Canadian levels would save at least dollar 209 billion annually, enough to fund universal coverage."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15088673

[Hitman21]

Source?

Canada’s health system beats U.S. in cost and results
http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20071205/

Health care cost comparison of US & Canada
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0289.htm

Its unsustainable though, the costs keep rising every year and the quality will go down

[kasianman]

Its unsustainable though, the costs keep rising every year and the quality will go down

Source?

[mavrik13]

$100-billion on health care, nothing to show for it: study
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/21/100-billion-on-health-care-nothing-to-show-for-it-study/



Canada's healthcare system is going to collapse at the rate we are going. The demographic shift we are experiencing and increasing healthcare delivery costs are continuing to burden the system. At what point do we take a serious look at reform? It's only a matter of time until the service-level and cost is unacceptable for a first world country and far too costly.

No it won't. Many, many other countries' health care systems will collapse well before Canada's. It's not like our country is the only country in the world where there is an aging population suffering from multiple chronic diseases. Our health care costs are just barely outpacing GDP growth, and are about 'middle of the road' when it comes to industrialized healthcare costs.

The biggest issue (or at least one of the biggest issues) is that we simply don't have the physical (and electronic) infrastructure we need to provide health care. If you want a reason for the longer wait lists to see a specialist, it is because there is a very finite amount of operating room (or equivalent) time available. This is also the reason why there are hundreds of new- or soon-to-be- grads in fields such as Orthopaedic surgery, with some of the longest wait lists in the country, who won't have a job available for them. We haven't had a pan-Canadian effort to adopt electronic medical records, and need a large-scale federal initiative to force the provinces to adopt and implement EMR systems.

[NorthYorker]

$100-billion on health care, nothing to show for it: study
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/21/100-billion-on-health-care-nothing-to-show-for-it-study/With all due respect, level of bias in Frazer's publications would make an average Cuban or Chinese communist newspaper looking EXTREMELY impartial.

[manmanny]

$100-billion on health care, nothing to show for it: study
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/21/100-billion-on-health-care-nothing-to-show-for-it-study/



Canada's healthcare system is going to collapse at the rate we are going. The demographic shift we are experiencing and increasing healthcare delivery costs are continuing to burden the system. At what point do we take a serious look at reform? It's only a matter of time until the service-level and cost is unacceptable for a first world country and far too costly.

lol. All those NDPer suddenly woke in this thread talking about Fraser Institute and Bias?

[Hitman21]

With all due respect, level of bias in Frazer's publications would make an average Cuban or Chinese communist newspaper looking EXTREMELY impartial.


The costs of healthcare keep rising and there is massive waste but that doesn't bother you?

[olssy]

All you have to do is just look at how the Canadian health system is costing more and more every year, its unsustainable

It's normal for healthcare costs to be rising, the population size is also growing. Could our system be better? For sure. Are we paying more per person than countries with privatized healthcare? Nope, we pay less than them per person and usually receive better care. Could there be some kind of conspiracy to get people complaining so much about public healthcare that they put pressure to privatize the system? Me thinks so...

[DearSummer]

Source?

They have already put caps on the increase in health care transfers to the province. Quality of care is all but certain to go down unless efficiency is greatly improved.

[DearSummer]

What do you suggest that we do?
Health care professionals in Canada are already getting paid less than the US private health care counter-parts.

Introduce more free-market principles to the system to stimulate innovation and greater efficiency. Private clinics, hospitals, etc. We can still use the single-payer system and have universal healthcare for all.

[Hitman21]

It's normal for healthcare costs to be rising, the population size is also growing. Could our system be better? For sure. Are we paying more per person than countries with privatized healthcare? Nope, we pay less than them per person and usually receive better care. Could there be some kind of conspiracy to get people complaining so much about public healthcare that they put pressure to privatize the system? Me thinks so...

The costs have been rising and rising and they will continue to go up

[Piro21]

Its unsustainable though, the costs keep rising every year and the quality will go down

"Private health care is far more expensive, here are the stats to prove it"

"Public healthcare is unsustainable!"

"But private healthcare is still far more expensive and less effective at treating a populace"

Logical derivation: No healthcare for anyone, public or private. It's all too expensive and everone dies anyway.

[Hitman21]

"Private health care is far more expensive, here are the stats to prove it"

"Public healthcare is unsustainable!"

"But private healthcare is still far more expensive and less effective at treating a populace"

Logical derivation: No healthcare for anyone, public or private. It's all too expensive and everone dies anyway.

No healthcare for politicians and the bureaucrats would help fix the problem

[spol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXOAK-eVnjU

[NorthYorker]

lol. All those NDPer suddenly woke in this thread talking about Fraser Institute and Bias?I'm not sure whom you call NDPer, but I'd say that calling Frazer biased is a simple declaration of fact. Same as calling Maud Barlow biased.
Introduce more free-market principles to the system to stimulate innovation and greater efficiency. Private clinics, hospitals, etc.Oh yes, private access to public purse did wonders to bring down cost of Ontario auto insurance or American healthcare :) :lol: :cheesygri Sometimes I wonder if you're shilling on behalf of NDP, man, as your ideas can only discredit conservative worldview.

[Hitman21]

Calling the Frazer Institute biased is just another way to shut them down

[gilboman]

What else would you expect when the government is in charge of healthcare, they will continue to make it more expensive and reduce the quality and eventually bankrupt the country

yes, because the US with private system is so great? oh wait... it's infinitely more inefficient than ours:facepalm:

[Hitman21]

yes, because the US with private system is so great? oh wait... it's infinitely more inefficient than ours:facepalm:

When did I ever say it was so great :facepalm:

Tell me why politicians and Canadian citizens go there for healthcare

[manmanny]

When did I ever say it was so great :facepalm:

Tell me why politicians and Canadian citizens go there for healthcare

When it come to health of their own they use private health-care:razz:. One premier did this...and Jack also did.

[Hitman21]

When it come to health of their own they use private health-care:razz:. One premier did this...and Jack also did.

I know. Bunch of hypocrites :facepalm:

[peanutz]

I think I'm going to be blasted for this post, but here goes anyway.


It's normal for healthcare costs to be rising, the population size is also growing. Could our system be better? For sure. Are we paying more per person than countries with privatized healthcare? Nope, we pay less than them per person and usually receive better care. Could there be some kind of conspiracy to get people complaining so much about public healthcare that they put pressure to privatize the system? Me thinks so...The population size is not only rising (the Fraser Institute claims that after adjusting for inflation and population growth, their conclusions remain accurate), but there is also a larger proportion of the population that is older. The article in the National Post did not mention that, although it alluded to this, mysteriously:


On how much of the money went toward serving an aging population, Mr. Esmail said this accounts for just one percentage point of the 6.9% average increase in annual health-care costs since 1997.Where is the methodology for determining what money is set aside towards specifically serving the aging population? I am very skeptical. For instance, CT scans and other high-tech equipment may be categorized as more for the general population than just for older patients, but we all know that many diagnostic tools become more critical or in demand for older patients due to higher risks, poorer relative health, etc. Furthermore, I was taught in school that drug costs are the second-highest expense in health care, after salaries. Who, as a group, uses the most drugs, and are part of government expenses...??

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/canadian-federal-health-transfers-to-the-provinces-2012.pdf

That is the original publication that the Post article is referring to. Note that I find it a little sketchy and misleading that the overall trend over the past 13 years is said to have gotten worse, but (see page 9) there is no differentiation between the 1997-2004 stretch and the 2004-present stretch. It is misleading because some things in the 2004-present stretch either remained the same or improved, despite the 1997-2004 showing a drop in measures for most of the outcomes listed. I think a FAR more interesting question would be to ask why the earlier period suffered more in terms of worsening outcome measures than the one after. (e.g. Did they not hustle enough?) For example, the number of practicing nurses from 1997-2004 went down, but from 2004-present it went up again.

Another point of criticism: The source for the outcome list on page 9 is the authors. There is a risk of the cherry-picking of data--it would have been better to get numbers and statistics from an independent source.

Another question I have: Some of the outcomes are numerically worse, but is there a clinical impact, and if so, is it large? e.g. the decrease in lithotripters and the 1-week longer ultrasound wait time since 2004.

---------------------------

Having said all this, I would prefer a hybrid system where there is both a public component with private options. You are lying to yourself, or blind, if you don't believe that aspects of our health care are already somewhat business-like, but it's worse because they are often things for which the doctors or clinics are already getting payment from the government and they want more dollars on top of that. For example, I see lots of doctors make it harder for some elderly patients with limited mobility on getting renewals for chronic prescription medications they have been taking for years without a change in dose or instruction. They prescribe for 3 months at a time and make them return, and requests for renewals by phone or fax are charged to the patient for $25 so please don't tell me it's out of therapeutic consideration "Oh I must see the patient and check on them." Also, when my mother got a colonoscopy from a clinic she got a pamphlet/advertisement saying that if she paid $100 she would have access to a more thorough consultation/explanation with an unlimited questions service for a year - she was not given a clear explanation of what paying the $100 would actually mean and she was also not given a clear explanation of what the colonoscopy would involve; when she asked for more clarification the secretary referred her to that. I had to be the one to tell her not to pay because a) an explanation of the colonoscopy procedure and questions regarding it should be part and parcel of serving her as a patient, and b) seriously wtf, lol...

Many Canadians already go abroad to try to get better or more timely access to special procedures. A health care system that is supplemented by private options could mean:
- less brain drain to the US
- shorter/cheaper waiting times for people who do have the money (assuming they don't have to pay for high travelling costs) while freeing up waiting times in the public sector
- possibly more resources from the extra funds from the private options to be pumped back into the public system as well

...and hopefully less of this not-quite-private-service-nor-satisfactory-publicly-funded-service, neither-here-nor-there crap.

A heavily privately-funded health care system like the US does cost more than Canada's for the equivalent quality of care. However, many hybrid systems are healthier than ours...

[divx]

healthcare is getting more expensive because our lives are worth more, it makes perfect sense. Canadian lives are worth more than people from most other countries so we go all out spend lots money to keep ourselves healthy. It's all good.

[gilboman]

When did I ever say it was so great :facepalm:

Tell me why politicians and Canadian citizens go there for healthcare

so here..gov't is in charge..healthcare efficiency no good.

in states, private companies in charge...healthcare efficiency even worst.

So... who's going to do a better job?

[gilboman]

When it come to health of their own they use private health-care:razz:. One premier did this...and Jack also did.


I know. Bunch of hypocrites :facepalm:

:facepalm: the post of the OP and throughout the who thread was the supposed inefficiencies and waste in public administered healthcare because gov't are inefficient.

It was never about the level/standard of care, it was the standard of care per $$ spent. Kind of alarming you both can't even figure out what your own points are .

[Hitman21]

so here..gov't is in charge..healthcare efficiency no good.

in states, private companies in charge...healthcare efficiency even worst.

So... who's going to do a better job?

:facepalm:

[ghostryder]

The Fraser Institute’s study did not specifically look at health-care outcomes, and Mr. Esmail acknowledged at least some of the increased funding seen in Canada in recent years has improved the quality of patients’ health after treatment.




Good thing you left this part out of your quote.




http://www.fareedzakaria.com/home/Articles/Entries/2012/3/19_Health_Insurance_Is_for_Everyone.html




When listening to the debate about American health care, I find that many of the most fervent critics of government involvement argue almost entirely from abstract theoretical propositions about free markets. One can and should reason from principles. But one must also reason from reality, from facts on the ground. And the fact is that about 20 foreign countries provide health care for their citizens in some way or other. All of them--including free-market havens like Switzerland and Taiwan--have found that they need to use an insurance or government-sponsored model. All of them provide universal health care at much, much lower costs than we do and with better results.


Maybe there's a theoretical pure free-market model out there that would work. But in the world we know and live in, the task is not to abolish our system for a utopia that has never actually existed anywhere but rather to accept the messy, mixed-up reality that we have and try to improve it to allow people to have access to decent health care at an affordable price--something every other rich country in the world already does.




The special he did on CNN last Sunday was very enlightening.

[Hitman21]

Good thing you left this part out of your quote.




http://www.fareedzakaria.com/home/Articles/Entries/2012/3/19_Health_Insurance_Is_for_Everyone.html







The special he did on CNN last Sunday was very enlightening.

Fareed Zakaria is a far left extremist, he cant be taken seriously

[DearSummer]

so here..gov't is in charge..healthcare efficiency no good.

in states, private companies in charge...healthcare efficiency even worst.

So... who's going to do a better job?

The U.S. is far from a private system...

[Hitman21]

The U.S. is far from a private system...

Agreed but that doesn't matter to gilbo he would rather make baseless attacks to support his views

[NorthYorker]

Fareed Zakaria is a far left extremistFair observation. As fair as saying that Frazer Institute is right-wing.
he cant be taken seriouslyHow about right-wingers? Can Frazer be taken seriously?

[Hitman21]

Fair observation. As fair as saying that Frazer Institute is right-wing.How about right-wingers? Can Frazer be taken seriously?

Fareed is far left so he cant be taken seriously. Frazier is just right wing-respect for taxpayers

[hdom]

Just like to point out, the Fraser Institute is voted THE top think tank in Canada - BY the lefties.


In 2010, the Fraser Institute was ranked No. 1 among 97 think-tanks in Canada, for the third year in a row, in the University of Pennsylvania's Global Go-To Think-Tank Index, a global survey of close to 1,500 scholars, policy makers, and journalists. The report also named the Fraser Institute as the only Canadian organization in the Top 25 leading think-tanks in the world in 2010, out of a global group of 6,480 think-tanks

[Hitman21]

Just like to point out, the Fraser Institute is voted THE top think tank in Canada - BY the lefties.

+1. Its just another way to shut them down

[Syne]

Hitman, would you please unplug your keyboard? Any thread I read with you in it is instantly turned to dog crap.

You consistently just blurt out your opinion with a complete lack of evidence. You can't be bothered to source or link anything, and your one-liner brain farts are quite frankly getting tiresome to read. In fact, if we were just to take your 'contributions' out of this thread, it would instantly become (to take a page from your book) 84.9% easier to read. No source needed.

You think you're lending support and credibility to DearSummer's opinions, but in reality you're like the pedophile float at the gay pride parade.

[Hitman21]

Hitman, would you please unplug your keyboard? Any thread I read with you in it is instantly turned to dog crap.

You consistently just blurt out your opinion with a complete lack of evidence. You can't be bothered to source or link anything, and your one-liner brain farts are quite frankly getting tiresome to read. In fact, if we were just to take your 'contributions' out of this thread, it would instantly become (to take a page from your book) 84.9% easier to read. No source needed.

You think you're lending support and credibility to DearSummer's opinions, but in reality you're like the pedophile float at the gay pride parade.

Why should I when many others on this forum don't post sources, why do you only go after me, what did I ever do to you.

Where do you get that ridiculous assumption that it would be 84.9% easier to read without me :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

[Syne]

I don't need to justify the 89.4%. I read it on Wikipedia once.

[Hitman21]

I don't need to justify the 89.4%. I read it on Wikipedia once.

I didn't know I was that important to be on Wikipedia :cheesygri

[ghostryder]

Fareed Zakaria is a far left extremist, he cant be taken seriously

If a Yale & Harvard educated Reaganite is a "far left extremist", who exactly do you consider right wing?

Did you even see it? They were comparing different systems from around the world, suggesting that the US should learn from the successes & failures in other countries / systems. How is that "left wing"?


The facts seem pretty clear, the US spends nearly twice as much ( % GDP) as any other industrialized country and their health outcomes (life expectancy, infant mortality etc) are at or near the bottom.

Funny that the US actually has all 4 possible "health care systems" operating simultanuously.

1. True socialized medicine = the veterans administration.
2. Publicly funded health insurance = Medicare (and senators, congressmen etc)
3. Private insurance coverage (paid by employer, employee or shared between them)
4. Self insurance ( a) anyone wealthy enough to self insure, and b) people who can't afford insurance and don't have employer paid coverage).


Other than 4 a) they could learn a lot from the rest of the world.

[Hitman21]

If a Yale & Harvard educated Reaganite is a "far left extremist", who exactly do you consider right wing?

Did you even see it? They were comparing different systems from around the world, suggesting that the US should learn from the successes & failures in other countries / systems. How is that "left wing"?


The facts seem pretty clear, the US spends nearly twice as much ( % GDP) as any other industrialized country and their health outcomes (life expectancy, infant mortality etc) are at or near the bottom.

Funny that the US actually has all 4 possible "health care systems" operating simultanuously.

1. True socialized medicine = the veterans administration.
2. Publicly funded health insurance = Medicare (and senators, congressmen etc)
3. Private insurance coverage (paid by employer, employee or shared between them)
4. Self insurance ( a) anyone wealthy enough to self insure, and b) people who can't afford insurance and don't have employer paid coverage).


Other than 4 a) they could learn a lot from the rest of the world.

The US doesn't have free market healthcare which is the problem for their system

[studolf]

I'd say privatize healthcare with health spending accounts. The government spends almost $5000 per capita on healthcare, why not give the money directly to the people, instead of running this bloated bureaucracy. This will also give people an incentive to live a healthier life, since most of us don't contract serious diseases until later in life. All the money we save every year will accumulate.

Not to mention the current system doesn't provide us with total health coverage, such as dental, vision, etc. We're already dependent on the free market to provide some things that the government doesn't. Prices are dropping in private areas of healthcare like laser eye surgery, plastic surgery, etc.

Even the doctors have to treat you as a customer. Just go for a laser eye consultation, the doctor will give you his business card. Isn't that insane? You can actually call a doctor, or send him an email. Should you choose to go through with the procedure they'll even follow up to make sure your eyes recuperating properly. That's how it is in the free market, serve your customers right, or lose them to the competition.

[Hitman21]

Hitman, would you please unplug your keyboard? Any thread I read with you in it is instantly turned to dog crap.

You consistently just blurt out your opinion with a complete lack of evidence. You can't be bothered to source or link anything, and your one-liner brain farts are quite frankly getting tiresome to read. In fact, if we were just to take your 'contributions' out of this thread, it would instantly become (to take a page from your book) 84.9% easier to read. No source needed.

You think you're lending support and credibility to DearSummer's opinions, but in reality you're like the pedophile float at the gay pride parade.

I have already taken two breaks from RFD to recover from my surgery.

I tell you what Syne. I will take a one month vacation from RFD provided that certain posters on here leave for one month as well

[Metagame]

I'd say privatize healthcare with health spending accounts. The government spends almost $4000 per capita on healthcare, why not give the money directly to the people, instead of running this bloated bureaucracy. This will also give people an incentive to live a healthier life, since most of us don't contract serious diseases until later in life. All the money we save every year will accumulate.

Not to mention the current system doesn't provide us with total health coverage, such as dental, vision, etc. We're already dependent on the free market to provide some things that the government doesn't. Prices are dropping in private areas of healthcare like laser eye surgery, plastic surgery, etc.

Even the doctors have to treat you as a customer. Just go for a laser eye consultation, the doctor will give you his business card. Isn't that insane? You can actually call a doctor, or send him an email. Should you choose to go through with the procedure they'll even follow up to make sure your eyes recuperating properly. That's how it is in the free market, serve your customers right, or lose them to the competition.

I would only be in favour of completely privatizing health care (as I have always been) only if medical licensing boards are completely scrapped, so the consumer gets to decide whether they want that doctor that was educated at University of Toronto or the doctor that was educated in Egypt. If government gets out of medicine completely, you will see a complete drop in prices. Why? Because the government restricts residency and medical school seats, which is why this profession is known as the, "protected profession". Not only will prices go down, but this doctor shortage that the media keeps going on about will finally be addressed.


So, if health-care is to be privatized, then it should be privatized 100% and should be a free-for-all. I don't want to keep bureaucracies that continue to add to the bottom line of doctors while costs remain the same.

[PPiL]

It's normal for healthcare costs to be rising, the population size is also growing. Could our system be better? For sure. Are we paying more per person than countries with privatized healthcare? Nope, we pay less than them per person and usually receive better care. Could there be some kind of conspiracy to get people complaining so much about public healthcare that they put pressure to privatize the system? Me thinks so...

I'm just throwing it out there without any actual data, but I guess that when you say that we pay less than the US for our health care you mean as users, but not as operator?

The benchmark for the cost of our healthcare system should be the cost to operate the healthcare system in the US, not the cost to the user.

[olssy]

I'm just throwing it out there without any actual data, but I guess that when you say that we pay less than the US for our health care you mean as users, but not as operator?

The benchmark for the cost of our healthcare system should be the cost to operate the healthcare system in the US, not the cost to the user.

If I'm not mistaken, when they calculate cost per person they take the full cost of operation and divide it by the population being covered, I could be wrong though...

Does anyone know of a country that has a 100% private system? I wonder what the life expectancy and child mortality rates are in countries like that...

[divx]

I'd say privatize healthcare with health spending accounts. The government spends almost $5000 per capita on healthcare, why not give the money directly to the people, instead of running this bloated bureaucracy. This will also give people an incentive to live a healthier life, since most of us don't contract serious diseases until later in life. All the money we save every year will accumulate.

Not to mention the current system doesn't provide us with total health coverage, such as dental, vision, etc. We're already dependent on the free market to provide some things that the government doesn't. Prices are dropping in private areas of healthcare like laser eye surgery, plastic surgery, etc.

Even the doctors have to treat you as a customer. Just go for a laser eye consultation, the doctor will give you his business card. Isn't that insane? You can actually call a doctor, or send him an email. Should you choose to go through with the procedure they'll even follow up to make sure your eyes recuperating properly. That's how it is in the free market, serve your customers right, or lose them to the competition.

so the cost is $5000 per person per year? no way private insurance would cost that much, just gimme $5000 a year and I will get my own insurance.

[Syne]

I would only be in favour of completely privatizing health care (as I have always been) only if medical licensing boards are completely scrapped, so the consumer gets to decide whether they want that doctor that was educated at University of Toronto or the doctor that was educated in Egypt. If government gets out of medicine completely, you will see a complete drop in prices. Why? Because the government restricts residency and medical school seats, which is why this profession is known as the, "protected profession". Not only will prices go down, but this doctor shortage that the media keeps going on about will finally be addressed.

So, if health-care is to be privatized, then it should be privatized 100% and should be a free-for-all. I don't want to keep bureaucracies that continue to add to the bottom line of doctors while costs remain the same.

What you would see in this scenario would be the advent of insurance companies flooding the market, which would offset any price savings we would be had through free market principles, because instead of paying for coverage through taxes, you'd now be paying it in the form of a monthly insurance bill with the new middle-man's expected returns tacked on. Add that to the cost of decentralized care, where everyone, from the paramedic to the ambulance driver to the candystriper wants a separate piece of the pie and the price of a single hospital visit will skyrocket, which we will require insurance companies to absorb which perpetuates the cycle. You'd also see the cost of medicine rise dramatically, since single-payer health care actually gets us very cheap medicine, which as somebody already mentioned, is the 2nd most expensive area of health care behind professional salaries.

Prices will most certainly not go down.

[flexwong]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/22/marni-soupcoff-my-daughter-suffers-to-protect-canadas-health-care-myths/

This article provides good, real life insights as to how our system is flawed. The health care debate always ends with people shouting extremes at each other. "You want American style health care and all the poor people will die!"

[Hitman21]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/22/marni-soupcoff-my-daughter-suffers-to-protect-canadas-health-care-myths/

This article provides good, real life insights as to how our system is flawed. The health care debate always ends with people shouting extremes at each other. "You want American style health care and all the poor people will die!"

Agreed. It would be nice to have a debate without the fear mongering from the usual suspects :facepalm:

[robster77]

I'm not a doctor, so I defer my expertise to my brother-in-law, who is a doctor, licensed in both Canada and the U.S. and currently working down at Harvard on a cancer research drug, ironically paid for by Health Canada. He says that overall, the Canadian system is better. People have full coverage, people are not turned away or going bankrupt due to medical bills, the private hospitals are not short-changing medical care in the name of profits, etc. etc. All the arguments we have heard about privatized medicine. On the whole, he said that Canada's medical system is much more cost effective and the standard of care is better. For example, they love giving pills out for everything in the U.S. because the doctors get paid more if they prescribe something, whether it's needed or not. This is crazy. On the flip side, he said the U.S. system does do some things better in Canada, things that would be fairly easy to implement. One such thing where he said the Canadian system would see a lot of benefits is in how doctors bill. Currently, we bill by patient whereas in the U.S., the doctor bills by amount of time spent with the patient. However, they also have levels of severity which is a billing factor, so doctors cannot spend an hour with somebody with a common cold just to jack up their billing rates. He said if we did the same in Canada, patient care would be better because doctors wouldn't be forcing everyone through. That was his only major criticism of the Canadian system.

[Syne]

Thanks for that, robster.

Yet somehow I don't feel that a doctor's knowledge and experience is going to get in the way of some people's free market fantasies.

[peanutz]

I'm not a doctor, so I defer my expertise to my brother-in-law, who is a doctor, licensed in both Canada and the U.S. and currently working down at Harvard on a cancer research drug, ironically paid for by Health Canada. He says that overall, the Canadian system is better. People have full coverage, people are not turned away or going bankrupt due to medical bills, the private hospitals are not short-changing medical care in the name of profits, etc. etc. All the arguments we have heard about privatized medicine. On the whole, he said that Canada's medical system is much more cost effective and the standard of care is better. For example, they love giving pills out for everything in the U.S. because the doctors get paid more if they prescribe something, whether it's needed or not. This is crazy. On the flip side, he said the U.S. system does do some things better in Canada, things that would be fairly easy to implement. One such thing where he said the Canadian system would see a lot of benefits is in how doctors bill. Currently, we bill by patient whereas in the U.S., the doctor bills by amount of time spent with the patient. However, they also have levels of severity which is a billing factor, so doctors cannot spend an hour with somebody with a common cold just to jack up their billing rates. He said if we did the same in Canada, patient care would be better because doctors wouldn't be forcing everyone through. That was his only major criticism of the Canadian system.Lots of great points.

The Canadian system is pretty darn good. However, that isn't to say that it couldn't be improved.

Another thing about billing by some combination of severity and time is that maybe doctors wouldn't close their doors early on a workday just because they'd met their quota for the day.

An alternative system that is being explored is also the family health team. My doctor who I met through the school clinic got into one, so she got me to change over, too. The billing is done by # of patients enrolled, per year. So patients who need more care will have access to more doctor (and other health professional) time and services; whereas healthier patients like myself pretty much just see her once or twice a year.

[flexwong]

Thanks for that, robster.

Yet somehow I don't feel that a doctor's knowledge and experience is going to get in the way of some people's free market fantasies.

It's not about a "free market fantasy". It's about what's best for everyone. Why people think that having a private option is a bad thing is really beyond my grasp. Did you know that the City of Philadelphia has more MRI machines than ALL of Canada combined???? Just saying, some people here don't want to wait 4-6 months to get an MRI done. Give them the damn option to pay for it IN CANADA. It frees up the queue and leaves everyone happier.

[Hitman21]

It's not about a "free market fantasy". It's about what's best for everyone. Why people think that having a private option is a bad thing is really beyond my grasp. Did you know that the City of Philadelphia has more MRI machines than ALL of Canada combined???? Just saying, some people here don't want to wait 4-6 months to get an MRI done. Give them the damn option to pay for it IN CANADA. It frees up the queue and leaves everyone happier.

Agreed. I have personally witnessed just how bad the healthcare system is in Canada

[Syne]

It's not about a "free market fantasy". It's about what's best for everyone. Why people think that having a private option is a bad thing is really beyond my grasp. Did you know that the City of Philadelphia has more MRI machines than ALL of Canada combined???? Just saying, some people here don't want to wait 4-6 months to get an MRI done. Give them the damn option to pay for it IN CANADA. It frees up the queue and leaves everyone happier.

While wait times do suck right now, I fail to see how privatizing health care is going to create more MRI machines. We're already running the ones we have 24/7. The solution is to get more, not let people butt in line because they're richer. MRI machines can (and will) be manufactured in time. I bet five years from now, we'll see wait times decrease dramatically. Technology always gets cheaper and more abundant.

What I'm more worried about is brain drain within our own country, otherwise known as tiered health care. If we give all the best and brightest doctors an avenue to get filthy rich in the private sector, then we're going to see the quality of health care for the indigent drop.

What we need to do is the opposite. We need to tighten up the system and levy harsh penalties against doctors who try to weasel kickbacks from their patients, or try to tack on their own private little fees for what should be basic health coverage in any civilized country. It is something that does happen. It's unethical and it undermines our system. Imagine my surprise last year when I went to have a skin tag checked out and the specialist I went to said he could remove it for $100, otherwise he didn't think it was a cancer risk and it's purely cosmetic. He told me because he's limited in the amount of OHIP claims he can make, that he wouldn't remove it for me under our health care system.

Now I'm not saying he's wrong and I hope to heavens it's just a benign skin tag.. but I tell you, if I ever wind up with melanoma and it's traced back to something I specifically went to a dermatologist to check out, I will personally confront the guy and the result won't be pretty. I know where he works. The thought of putting people's lives at risk to pad your bottom line doesn't sit well with me, especially when it's my life.

[Agafaba]

It's not about a "free market fantasy". It's about what's best for everyone. Why people think that having a private option is a bad thing is really beyond my grasp. Did you know that the City of Philadelphia has more MRI machines than ALL of Canada combined???? Just saying, some people here don't want to wait 4-6 months to get an MRI done. Give them the damn option to pay for it IN CANADA. It frees up the queue and leaves everyone happier.

I doubt that many people in Canada would be opposed to a private option on the condition that the current "free" healthcare remained relatively the same, however most argue for changing the current system and not adding to it.

[stealth]

lol. All those NDPer suddenly woke in this thread talking about Fraser Institute and Bias?

Lol...I guess its fun to throw a label onto something just so it can be instantly dismissed/discredited.

[stealth]

yes, because the US with private system is so great? oh wait... it's infinitely more inefficient than ours:facepalm:

It is (superior to Canadas) if you have the money to pay for it.

[jcon]

Agreed. It would be nice to have a debate without the fear mongering from the usual suspects :facepalm:


I have already taken two breaks from RFD to recover from my surgery.

I tell you what Syne. I will take a one month vacation from RFD provided that certain posters on here leave for one month as well


Why should I when many others on this forum don't post sources, why do you only go after me, what did I ever do to you.

Where do you get that ridiculous assumption that it would be 84.9% easier to read without me :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:


Fareed is far left so he cant be taken seriously. Frazier is just right wing-respect for taxpayers


Agreed but that doesn't matter to gilbo he would rather make baseless attacks to support his views


Fareed Zakaria is a far left extremist, he cant be taken seriously


:facepalm:


I know. Bunch of hypocrites :facepalm:


Calling the Frazer Institute biased is just another way to shut them down


No healthcare for politicians and the bureaucrats would help fix the problem


The costs have been rising and rising and they will continue to go up


The costs of healthcare keep rising and there is massive waste but that doesn't bother you?


Its unsustainable though, the costs keep rising every year and the quality will go down


All you have to do is just look at how the Canadian health system is costing more and more every year, its unsustainable


What else would you expect when the government is in charge of healthcare, they will continue to make it more expensive and reduce the quality and eventually bankrupt the country

Can you please show me where you use facts to support your 'debate'?

[Hitman21]

Can you please show me where you use facts to support your 'debate'?

Much of what I said is based on facts

[kasianman]

Much of what I said is based on facts

Source?

[Hitman21]

Source?

I have provided many sources but there ignored by the usual suspects

[fakishan]

Since no one will watch canadian fox news, dearsummer has decided to bring its wisdom to us.

[Hitman21]

Since no one will watch canadian fox news, dearsummer has decided to bring its wisdom to us.

:facepalm: The free markets are the solution to healthcare

[aaronl3e7]

I think healthcare for all our fellow Canadians (read: Human Beings) is $100 billion well spent.

If you think privatizing healthcare will solve this problem then you are forgetting...

The amount of doctors, is higher now than what we would need in a privatized healthcare Canada. Leaving a lot of them unemployed and over saturating the medical industry. What this will do is essentially screw new doctors out of jobs, screw students and prospective students in the medical field out of jobs, leaving the industry over saturated with practitioners of "old medicine". Medicine is one of those things that changes constantly and high turnover as well as high demand keeps the industry fresh.

A privatized healthcare system will undoubtedly turn into a case of the "highest bidder" and if you think you are well off, there will always be someone else who has more money... (let's face it people although you think you have money, you are on a bargain website, and probably have no idea what "real money" is)

Sure privatizing healthcare will speed up your waiting time (assuming you have money), make Canada a more lucrative place to practice medicine (if you can get a job, that is...) and free up $100 billion of government dollars (which will probably be used to buy what exactly? My guess is something that doesn't benefit you directly.)

Another thing, to all those who support privatization because of their current financial situation:
Realize this, your station in life can change at any time, the same programs you try to tear down now might just be the same ones that save your life....

[Syne]

^ Real talk right there.

[flexwong]

While wait times do suck right now, I fail to see how privatizing health care is going to create more MRI machines. We're already running the ones we have 24/7. The solution is to get more, not let people butt in line because they're richer. MRI machines can (and will) be manufactured in time. I bet five years from now, we'll see wait times decrease dramatically. Technology always gets cheaper and more abundant.



Because private hospitals will invest in more technology. Because those who can afford/want to pay for their own treatment will do so, hence freeing up more space in the public domain.

The whole "letting people butt in line because they're richer" argument doesn't work, and to me, is totally invalid. There are inequalities no matter what. What next, everyone has to drive the same car or take the bus because the richer people can afford a Mercedes or a new car that doesn't break down so they are more efficient? It just happens.

Doctors won't be lost to the private sector because the government will be able to PAY the public sector doctors more, since more resources were freed up by the private sector. Look at the countries where there is a strong public sector AND a strong private sector.

[patpond]

I'm quickly learning that most threads started by Dearsummer and tag-teamed by Hitman21 should be avoided.

If you guys hate the way the country is run, why don't you leave??? Nothing but pi$$ing and moaning. Or better yet, get elected to public office and initiate policy change! :cheesygri

[NorthYorker]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/22/marni-soupcoff-my-daughter-suffers-to-protect-canadas-health-care-myths/

This article provides good, real life insights as to how our system is flawed. I'm not sure what "real life" the "1.5 year wait to see an immunologist" belongs to, because I've just been through it with my kid this winter. We waited for approximately 3-4 weeks to see an immunologist who confirmed that $200 spent on epi-pen was about the stupidest decision I made, but he still recommended us to go to Sick Children to see if kid has mild form of lactose intolerance. Wait time for this non-urgent test? About 4 weeks. And, in the name of full disclosure, I do not have any kind of "insider access" to the system.

[Hitman21]

I'm quickly learning that most threads started by Dearsummer and tag-teamed by Hitman21 should be avoided.

If you guys hate the way the country is run, why don't you leave??? Nothing but pi$$ing and moaning. Or better yet, get elected to public office and initiate policy change! :cheesygri

Me and Dearsummer have very opposing views :facepalm:

[MrKap]

Go to the emergency room at any hospital. Count the number of people waiting for life saving services.

You'll be surprised to know that no matter how much you think the money is wasted, there are a couple hundred thousand people with the sniffles who think otherwise.

[stealth]

I'm quickly learning that most threads started by Dearsummer and tag-teamed by Hitman21 should be avoided.

If you guys hate the way the country is run, why don't you leave??? Nothing but pi$$ing and moaning. Or better yet, get elected to public office and initiate policy change! :cheesygri

Should this apply to the Harper/Ford bashers as well? Or did you not think this through at all before you posted it?

[Hitman21]

Should this apply to the Harper/Ford bashers as well? Or did you not think this through at all before you posted it?

Agreed. Its always Conservatives trying to destroy the country and the Left wingers will fix it up :facepalm:

[patpond]

Should this apply to the Harper/Ford bashers as well? Or did you not think this through at all before you posted it?

Sure, if you don't like it leave. More room for me. :D I'd love to have a 100 acre dude ranch in the GTA. :razz:

In all seriousness, democracy = the right to complain. But if you dislike every facet of the country you live in, why stay? If you think you can do a better job, then run for public office, and change it. What other options are there? Rally the people? Go for it.

[divx]

health care money is money well spent, I don't see an issue, maybe that we aren't spending enough.

[manmanny]

I'm quickly learning that most threads started by Dearsummer and tag-teamed by Hitman21 should be avoided.

If you guys hate the way the country is run, why don't you leave??? Nothing but pi$$ing and moaning. Or better yet, get elected to public office and initiate policy change! :cheesygri

lol.


Isn't biatching and moaning is fundamental and Canadian way? But if you dont like the ways then take your own advice.
We like country run by Harper. Its RFD/Star people who dont like country run by Conservatives.
In fact they dont like Conservatives, be it from any country.
Lefties are so pissed that they still cant accept Harper and Ford are elected PM/mayor, in Democratic process and democratic country.

Now about OP. Don has already said about health-care spending and returns and cuts to it.

[DearSummer]

health care money is money well spent, I don't see an issue, maybe that we aren't spending enough.

Of course it's a good thing to spend on healthcare. It's about getting the most value for your money. We have limited resources and must apply them effectively to get the best result. Spending money to gain no results is wasteful and obviously idiotic.

[zonetbh]

health care money is money well spent, I don't see an issue, maybe that we aren't spending enough.

You don't see an issue with spending billions on health care related project that never actually get finished and that money is essentially wasted? That is ok with you?

[Hitman21]

Much of the money is being wasted on the massive bureaucracy. The bureaucrats along with pensions/salaries are helping to screw the system

[sbutabi]

not everyone in healthcare makes millions... I am in healthcare... I make 50,000 per year before large deductions and have had (I am not Union) a 3 year salary freeze now... which ends this year, but we have a zero budget increase for the facility so I will be getting a 1% raise (IF THAT) at the most... With the rise in food and gas prices... I am considering selling my house by the end of this year, since I simply cannot keep up anymore... I have no dependants, etc... do not drink, smoke or go out for that... But do tell me where all the money is as I sure could use some right about now... >:( >:( >:(

[MrKap]

Again, easy fix. They need to let foreign competition in.

Where do people go for MS surgery? South America... money lost...

Where do people go for a sex change? Not Canada... money lost...

How does a foreign doctor practice medicine here if we can't recognize their degree? Money lost...

They need to offer tax breaks to foreigners, and Canadians need to lower their standards and righteousness to grow this economy. Instead we are pounding it dry with self entitlements and fat paychecks from industries which can't support it.

[flexwong]

health care money is money well spent, I don't see an issue, maybe that we aren't spending enough.

Ontario spends about 46% of it's budget on healthcare. That means every tax dollar you pay, $0.46 go to healthcare. That leaves 54 cents for everything else.

[Hitman21]

Ontario spends about 46% of it's budget on healthcare. That means every tax dollar you pay, $0.46 go to healthcare. That leaves 54 cents for everything else.

Way too much money is being spent on healthcare and it must stop. Its way too much

[Buggy166]

What do you suggest that we do?
Health care professionals in Canada are already getting paid less than the US private health care counter-parts.

good luck to them getting a US work visa. This is Canada. Dont like it, dont stay. Id love to have the option of getting paid 6 figures and say "im not geting paid enough because some other guys in a different country i cant legally work in are getting paid more"

[CDNPatriot]

Introduce more free-market principles to the system to stimulate innovation and greater efficiency. Private clinics, hospitals, etc. We can still use the single-payer system and have universal healthcare for all.

Dearsummer like usual things went right over your head. Posters have provided you with several links to read regarding what you are proposing and how in practice it's not working.

The problem is that the baby Boomer should be paying more taxes to fund the system as they are more medically vulnerable. If they all pay more great.

The youth should receive tax breaks as they don't use up health care as much.

[CDNPatriot]

not everyone in healthcare makes millions... I am in healthcare... I make 50,000 per year before large deductions and have had (I am not Union) a 3 year salary freeze now... which ends this year, but we have a zero budget increase for the facility so I will be getting a 1% raise (IF THAT) at the most... With the rise in food and gas prices... I am considering selling my house by the end of this year, since I simply cannot keep up anymore... I have no dependants, etc... do not drink, smoke or go out for that... But do tell me where all the money is as I sure could use some right about now... >:( >:( >:(

sbutabi, I have a family member in the same predicament.

The problem is that the aging Baby Boomers should pay more in taxes to fund this increase in services they need. Then the system will be fixed.

[DearSummer]

Dearsummer like usual things went right over your head. Posters have provided you with several links to read regarding what you are proposing and how in practice it's not working.

The problem is that the baby Boomer should be paying more taxes to fund the system as they are more medically vulnerable. If they all pay more great.

The youth should receive tax breaks as they don't use up health care as much.

By that logic, why not just have everybody pay for their own healthcare?

[divx]

By that logic, why not just have everybody pay for their own healthcare?

We aren't living in Alberta.

[RolandCouch]

3 Step Solution to Canada's Debt:

-Stop funding everything on the First Nations agenda
-Do not allow people who immigrate to Canada in their later years to collect OAS
-Make health care 2 tier (in a sense). If someone sponsors their elderly mother to move here from wherever, that person should not be entitled to free healthcare. They never paid taxes in this country that fund the system. Only fair.

[NorthYorker]

By that logic, why not just have everybody pay for their own healthcare?This begs the question. Are you, you personally, prepared to tell someone that they're gonna die from something as easy treatable( but deadly if untreated) as, say, pneumonia, if they don't have coverage or cash to pay for diagnosis + treatment?

[DearSummer]

This begs the question. Are you, you personally, prepared to tell someone that they're gonna die from something as easy treatable( but deadly if untreated) as, say, pneumonia, if they don't have coverage or cash to pay for diagnosis + treatment?

Would you tell a baby boomer who can't afford your increased taxes the same thing?

What price do we put on a human life? If we could save a life for $10 million out of the public coffers, should we do it?

[NorthYorker]

Would you tell a baby boomer who can't afford your increased taxes the same thing?Clarify, please. However, I would say that the very fact of your attempt to turn the table proves that you are not comfortable with you own idea. This is quite telling.

[divx]

Would you tell a baby boomer who can't afford your increased taxes the same thing?

What price do we put on a human life? If we could save a life for $10 million out of the public coffers, should we do it?

well then, how much does a human life worth in Canada exactly? In afhan it's only worth $50,000 apparently as that's what the states paid to them per life taken in the massacre. If we can put a price tag on human lives, then we can plug it into a formula and work out the optimal solution. The only problem is that number various from person to person.

[divx]

Clarify, please. However, I would say that the very fact of your attempt to turn the table proves that you are not comfortable with you own idea. This is quite telling.

Both of you have a point, as much as I'd like to keep health care free for all, I also don't want the country to go bankrupt.

[RolandCouch]

Both of you have a point, as much as I'd like to keep health care free for all, I also don't want the country to go bankrupt.

Like I said before. 'Universal' health care for those who have paid into the system and pay-per-use healthcare for those who have not.

I.e. if you moved to Canada when you were 50 and paid taxes for 10 years, you do not qualify.

[divx]

Like I said before. 'Universal' health care for those who have paid into the system and pay-per-use healthcare for those who have not.

I.e. if you moved to Canada when you were 50 and paid taxes for 10 years, you do not qualify.

What if you lived in Canada your whole life but you are a worthless leech? Is your life still worth saving on public dime?

[RolandCouch]

What if you lived in Canada your whole life but you are a worthless leech? Is your life still worth saving on public dime?

They should have some sort of tax requirements tied into CRA in my opinion.

i.e. I would much rather give health care to a Canadian immigrant who paid 30K in taxes for 10 years than to someone who paid 2K for 30 years but was born here.

Of course, I would include some obvious exceptions in here i.e. Mentally challenged, etc.

[divx]

They should have some sort of tax requirements tied into CRA in my opinion.

i.e. I would much rather give health care to a Canadian immigrant who paid 30K in taxes for 10 years than to someone who paid 2K for 30 years but was born here.

Of course, I would include some obvious exceptions in here i.e. Mentally challenged, etc.

If you gonna do that, might as well just cut taxes and get everyone to buy their own insurance.

[olssy]

3 Step Solution to Canada's Debt:

-Stop funding everything on the First Nations agenda
-Do not allow people who immigrate to Canada in their later years to collect OAS
-Make health care 2 tier (in a sense). If someone sponsors their elderly mother to move here from wherever, that person should not be entitled to free healthcare. They never paid taxes in this country that fund the system. Only fair.

Stop funding everything on the First Nations agenda?!?!?!?! You must have created quite a fairy tale about how First Nations live... Why do you think the Red Cross needs to come and help? Because they can't manage money? What a laugh, you see how much it costs to bring material to isolated regions...

Your point on being 'fair' about granting health care only to those that have paid taxes also makes no sense seeing how our economy and way of life is built on the exploitation of people and resources from all those 'third world' countries. Why do you think we are so rich here? Because we work harder and are smarter?

I wonder if RFD is representative of how Canadians think these days, if it is then it seems like tolerance and compassion are going to be taking a long break...

[divx]

Stop funding everything on the First Nations agenda?!?!?!?! You must have created quite a fairy tale about how First Nations live... Why do you think the Red Cross needs to come and help? Because they can't manage money? What a laugh, you see how much it costs to bring material to isolated regions...

Your point on being 'fair' about granting health care only to those that have paid taxes also makes no sense seeing how our economy and way of life is built on the exploitation of people and resources from all those 'third world' countries. Why do you think we are so rich here? Because we work harder and are smarter?

I wonder if RFD is representative of how Canadians think these days, if it is then it seems like tolerance and compassion are going to be taking a long break...

That is exactly why we Canadians are superior than the rest.

[DearSummer]

Stop funding everything on the First Nations agenda?!?!?!?! You must have created quite a fairy tale about how First Nations live... Why do you think the Red Cross needs to come and help? Because they can't manage money? What a laugh, you see how much it costs to bring material to isolated regions...

Fiscal mismanagement obviously plays a huge role in First Nations' plight. I'm not sure why anybody would want to live on a reserve in the middle of nowhere with no economic opportunity and huge social problems. Worst of all, it's controlled by a band council that is generally corrupt and/or incompetent. Pouring more money into reserves won't do a thing to fix the problems.


Your point on being 'fair' about granting health care only to those that have paid taxes also makes no sense seeing how our economy and way of life is built on the exploitation of people and resources from all those 'third world' countries. Why do you think we are so rich here? Because we work harder and are smarter?

Yes, we work harder and smarter. We also have a more developed and effective political/economic framework. Finally, we have the capital to increase our productivity to levels that 3rd world countries can not meet. How exactly do we exploit 3rd world countries?

[RolandCouch]

That is exactly why we Canadians are superior than the rest.

+1.

Perhaps he is not a Canadian.

[olssy]

Fiscal mismanagement obviously plays a huge role in First Nations' plight. I'm not sure why anybody would want to live on a reserve in the middle of nowhere with no economic opportunity and huge social problems. Worst of all, it's controlled by a band council that is generally corrupt and/or incompetent. Pouring more money into reserves won't do a thing to fix the problems.



Yes, we work harder and smarter. We also have a more developed and effective political/economic framework. Finally, we have the capital to increase our productivity to levels that 3rd world countries can not meet. How exactly do we exploit 3rd world countries?

Just off the top of my head, we exploit the third world through these organizations: IMF WTO and World Bank
Not to mention through Wars, arms trading, sanctions, etc.

Do you really we could have this much buying power if we weren't exploiting others? Someone needs to mine the minerals and assemble the electronics...

[CDNPatriot]

[QUOTE=DearSummer;14482459]Fiscal mismanagement obviously plays a huge role in First Nations' plight. I'm not sure why anybody would want to live on a reserve in the middle of nowhere with no economic opportunity and huge social problems. Worst of all, it's controlled by a band council that is generally corrupt and/or incompetent. Pouring more money into reserves won't do a thing to fix the problems.
QUOTE]

Going after the aboriginal people of Canada too now. Dearsummer you want to cut funding every where.

But you never ever have any solutions to all of these problems. Cut funding and problems fix themselves.

[divx]

Just off the top of my head, we exploit the third world through these organizations: IMF WTO and World Bank
Not to mention through Wars, arms trading, sanctions, etc.

Do you really we could have this much buying power if we weren't exploiting others? Someone needs to mine the minerals and assemble the electronics...

I won't use the word exploiting, but rather we are doing a favor for them by giving them jobs. Case in point, there was a huge queue to the foxconn factory hiring lineup that lasted well into the night. You see, people are grateful for being "exploited".

[divx]

[QUOTE=DearSummer;14482459]Fiscal mismanagement obviously plays a huge role in First Nations' plight. I'm not sure why anybody would want to live on a reserve in the middle of nowhere with no economic opportunity and huge social problems. Worst of all, it's controlled by a band council that is generally corrupt and/or incompetent. Pouring more money into reserves won't do a thing to fix the problems.
QUOTE]

Going after the aboriginal people of Canada too now. Dearsummer you want to cut funding every where.

But you never ever have any solutions to all of these problems. Cut funding and problems fix themselves.

The solution to the sovereign debt issue is either cut spending or raise taxes or both, which other problems are you referring to? The more money we can save elsewhere the more we can inject into healthcare.

[r1lee]

Lol, right prefer a two tier system or full privatization, the left prefer everyone pays to a pool and we all use it.

The question is, does our healthcare system works? Unfortunately all you right wingers will never win this argument.

I think an easier route would allow anyone to opt out of paying for healthcare. Thus creating a two tier system.

[olssy]

I won't use the word exploiting, but rather we are doing a favor for them by giving them jobs. Case in point, there was a huge queue to the foxconn factory hiring lineup that lasted well into the night. You see, people are grateful for being "exploited".

Definitions of exploitation:
1. The act of employing to the greatest possible advantage
2. Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes

As you can see, everyone working in a capitalist system is being exploited to some degree but the wealthier you are the lest exploited you become. So yes, those Chinese workers are definitely being exploited even if they are getting what is considered a good salary by their standards. They are being used by a corporation to increase profits to make shareholders happy while at the same time giving huge salaries and bonuses to those that manage the corporation for the shareholders. I work and am being exploited by my employer as he does not employ me for my benefit but to profit from my work in a selfish way, to make money for himself. But I am being exploited to a much lesser degree than the workers in China as I can buy what they assemble while they cannot...

Btw, I am not endorsing communism or trying to bash capitalism, just interpreting the situation as I see it, and yes, I have an ipad... and computers... and tons of gadgets I got for cheap cause I read RFD :)

[DearSummer]

Just off the top of my head, we exploit the third world through these organizations: IMF WTO and World Bank
Not to mention through Wars, arms trading, sanctions, etc.

Do you really we could have this much buying power if we weren't exploiting others? Someone needs to mine the minerals and assemble the electronics...

You realize that Canada is a natural resources powerhouse, right? Are we being exploited because we extract natural resources from our country? You also realize that we have a large manufacturing sector and are fighting hard to keep jobs here.

Countries are free to not trade with Canada or anybody else if they choose. However, they realize that global trade is their opportunity out of extreme poverty. See China, India, Japan, etc. for examples of this.

[DearSummer]

Definitions of exploitation:
1. The act of employing to the greatest possible advantage
2. Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes

As you can see, everyone working in a capitalist system is being exploited to some degree but the wealthier you are the lest exploited you become. So yes, those Chinese workers are definitely being exploited even if they are getting what is considered a good salary by their standards. They are being used by a corporation to increase profits to make shareholders happy while at the same time giving huge salaries and bonuses to those that manage the corporation for the shareholders. I work and am being exploited by my employer as he does not employ me for my benefit but to profit from my work in a selfish way, to make money for himself. But I am being exploited to a much lesser degree than the workers in China as I can buy what they assemble while they cannot...

Btw, I am not endorsing communism or trying to bash capitalism, just interpreting the situation as I see it, and yes, I have an ipad... and computers... and tons of gadgets I got for cheap cause I read RFD :)

Without us "exploiting" them most Chinese people would be living in much worse poverty than they are now. Global trade and the supposed "exploitation" you are speaking of has been the key ingredient to lifting countless countries' standard of living.

[manmanny]

This is nice. people dormant for 5 years suddenly wakes to attack dearsum?

Where are the mods when you need? But I am sure empire wont strike here.

[Agafaba]

This is nice. people dormant for 5 years suddenly wakes to attack dearsum?

Where are the mods when you need? But I am sure empire wont strike here.

Uhh.. what was so wrong that it deserved a warning/ban?

[pablonutribar]

Can you please show me where you use facts to support your 'debate'?

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa......Now seriously - I can't take it anymore. I have to ignore the guy.

[spol]

Do you really we could have this much buying power if we weren't exploiting others? Someone needs to mine the minerals and assemble the electronics...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTgJNWs-gWA

[NorthYorker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTgJNWs-gWAI noticed by approx 4:30 that the same part of "final price" is being piled up three times under different names and stopped watching. Once you try to convince me that giving $5 and repeating three times "I gave you $5" equals giving $15, it stops being a discussion and becomes fraud.

[vlado416]

All you have to do is just look at how the Canadian health system is costing more and more every year, its unsustainable

This is the point , it's a business like schools and education. How come they are advertising now like movies and video games?
Thet are advertising to make money, not to make you "healthier" or "educated" , in fact that would be counter to the business model that they have.
The cost of "education" and "health" is always rising and will always rise because it's a business and capitalism.
Just out of curiosity, I heard some past politician getting a heart transplant which sounds terrible but that cost him 800 thousand dollars.
The heart and any other organ serves a purpose and was never meant to be taken out and replaced and I have a feeling it's not going to work but the
medical people will get rich out of this scam.
They are in it for the money and they can only make money on stupid, sick and uninformed people. Don't blame them, blame people who make them rich.

[DearSummer]

I noticed by approx 4:30 that the same part of "final price" is being piled up three times under different names and stopped watching. Once you try to convince me that giving $5 and repeating three times "I gave you $5" equals giving $15, it stops being a discussion and becomes fraud.

Haha how do you not understand that video?

[NorthYorker]

Haha how do you not understand that video?I understood that when the narrator repeats "price of tools" (which already includes cost of capital in those tools), "price of know-how in the tools" (which is included in price of tools already) and "price of capital in know-hows in the tools" and pretends it to be a separate costs not wrapped into one another, the narrator is either cheating or ignorant. This is exactly what was done in this vid and that's why I stopped watching.

[Clement]

The heart and any other organ serves a purpose and was never meant to be taken out and replaced and I have a feeling it's not going to work but the
medical people will get rich out of this scam.

you really think organ transplants are a medical conspiracy :facepalm: ? how dense are you?

are we "meant" to inject insulin into diabetics too? they should've just died from hyperglycemia amirite :facepalm: :facepalm:

[Agafaba]

This is the point , it's a business like schools and education. How come they are advertising now like movies and video games?
Thet are advertising to make money, not to make you "healthier" or "educated" , in fact that would be counter to the business model that they have.
The cost of "education" and "health" is always rising and will always rise because it's a business and capitalism.
Just out of curiosity, I heard some past politician getting a heart transplant which sounds terrible but that cost him 800 thousand dollars.
The heart and any other organ serves a purpose and was never meant to be taken out and replaced and I have a feeling it's not going to work but the
medical people will get rich out of this scam.
They are in it for the money and they can only make money on stupid, sick and uninformed people. Don't blame them, blame people who make them rich.

Well the heart isnt supposed to fail and kill the body in a perfect scenario either. You dont think the politician was walking around literally without a heart do you? Do you believe that once an organ fails you should die instead of trying to fix the problem if the only option is to replace it?

[shannn]

Privatization of healthcare in Canada = FAIL

Need look no further than the privatization of ophthalmology in Alberta. When ophthos were given the ability to work privately, 2 things happened:
-wait times for the general public went up because people were able to "cut in line"
-surgeons were moving quickly to the private sector to make more money, causing a greater shortage of surgeons and even longer wait times for the general public

http://www.albertaconsumers.org/CanaryReportrevised2.pdf
http://www.medicalreformgroup.ca/lasereyedraining.pdf

Now imagine this was done to the rest of health care.

Don't get me wrong, there are A LOT of issues with the health care system right now, and something needs to be done now because in the next 10 years, healthcare expenditure will be greater than 50% of our taxes. IMO, what the government needs to do is focus on a long term solution, but it may already be too late for the first half of baby boomers.
Creating efficient hospitals in major urban centres that focus on one thing (such as a hospital specifically for orthopedics, a hospital specifically for gastroenterology, etc...) and allow them to become very efficient, thereby hopefully cutting costs and reducing wait times for procedures. This is sort of what is being done, but there are still a lot of redundancies in the system that need to be looked at and resolved. Hopefully resolving redundancies can reduce health care costs, but I'm not sure by how much and how effective it would ultimately be, but it should hopefully help at least a little.

[CDNPatriot]

I shake my head at Canadians that want to privatize health care despite the proven savings.

For a taste of what health care would like if privatized watch the fifth estate. The same shinanigans by the insurance companies.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/03/08/travel-insurance-marketplace.html

if our system is a fail Shann the privatized system is absolutely massive failure of epic proportions. I'll take our system anyday.


Privatization of healthcare in Canada = FAIL

Need look no further than the privatization of ophthalmology in Alberta. When ophthos were given the ability to work privately, 2 things happened:
-wait times for the general public went up because people were able to "cut in line"
-surgeons were moving quickly to the private sector to make more money, causing a greater shortage of surgeons and even longer wait times for the general public

http://www.albertaconsumers.org/CanaryReportrevised2.pdf
http://www.medicalreformgroup.ca/lasereyedraining.pdf

Now imagine this was done to the rest of health care.

Don't get me wrong, there are A LOT of issues with the health care system right now, and something needs to be done now because in the next 10 years, healthcare expenditure will be greater than 50% of our taxes. IMO, what the government needs to do is focus on a long term solution, but it may already be too late for the first half of baby boomers.
Creating efficient hospitals in major urban centres that focus on one thing (such as a hospital specifically for orthopedics, a hospital specifically for gastroenterology, etc...) and allow them to become very efficient, thereby hopefully cutting costs and reducing wait times for procedures. This is sort of what is being done, but there are still a lot of redundancies in the system that need to be looked at and resolved. Hopefully resolving redundancies can reduce health care costs, but I'm not sure by how much and how effective it would ultimately be, but it should hopefully help at least a little.

[divx]

This is the point , it's a business like schools and education. How come they are advertising now like movies and video games?
Thet are advertising to make money, not to make you "healthier" or "educated" , in fact that would be counter to the business model that they have.
The cost of "education" and "health" is always rising and will always rise because it's a business and capitalism.
Just out of curiosity, I heard some past politician getting a heart transplant which sounds terrible but that cost him 800 thousand dollars.
The heart and any other organ serves a purpose and was never meant to be taken out and replaced and I have a feeling it's not going to work but the
medical people will get rich out of this scam.
They are in it for the money and they can only make money on stupid, sick and uninformed people. Don't blame them, blame people who make them rich.

supply and demand, it's not easy to obtain a human heart so it's probably worth the $800k price tag. What exactly is your problem?

[mavrik13]

The vast majority of our healthcare system is already a private healthcare system. The government doesn't own the hospitals, nor do they employ physicians. Hospitals are run not-for-profit by employees of the hospital (not the government), and doctors are self-employed. In my opinion, this is a big issue - hospital administrators are only interested in their own hospital (or hospital network), and not the healthcare system as a whole. There are government employees responsible for healthcare, but they are very small in number. The government is the only 'buyer' of healthcare in Canada (a monopsony). Our healthcare system is publicly funded, and privately delivered.

This is different than in England, where hospitals are either owned by the government and doctors are civil servants (publicly funded, publicly delivered), or privately funded and privately delivered (two-tier system).

The American healthcare system is privately funded, and privately delivered (except for certain social programs).

There is a lot good evidence to show that privatization of healthcare funding actually increases healthcare costs, instead of lowering them.

[Piro21]

The vast majority of our healthcare system is already a private healthcare system. The government doesn't own the hospitals, nor do they employ physicians. Hospitals are run not-for-profit by employees of the hospital (not the government), and doctors are self-employed. In my opinion, this is a big issue - hospital administrators are only interested in their own hospital (or hospital network), and not the healthcare system as a whole. There are government employees responsible for healthcare, but they are very small in number. The government is the only 'buyer' of healthcare in Canada (a monopsony). Our healthcare system is publicly funded, and privately delivered.

This is different than in England, where hospitals are either owned by the government and doctors are civil servants (publicly funded, publicly delivered), or privately funded and privately delivered (two-tier system).

The American healthcare system is privately funded, and privately delivered (except for certain social programs).

There is a lot good evidence to show that privatization of healthcare funding actually increases healthcare costs, instead of lowering them.

Administrative costs alone show that a private system is less efficient. The UK system really seems like the best way to go. I don't know why we haven't adopted it yet.

[NorthYorker]

The UK system really seems like the best way to go.British system assumes pretty low salaries for doctors within NHS and is only sustainable due to massive permanent recruitment of foreign-trained doctor. Try to push something like this through medical lobby here...

[divx]

we need to get our priority straight, healthcare is important, so spend money on stuff that matters.

[DearSummer]

we need to get our priority straight, healthcare is important, so spend money on stuff that matters.

45 cents of every tax dollar that comes in the door is already spent on healthcare. I don't think that's necessary bad, but we need to maximize the service we get for this money. It can't keep growing at the current pace or it will bankrupt the province and country.

[shannn]

45 cents of every tax dollar that comes in the door is already spent on healthcare. I don't think that's necessary bad, but we need to maximize the service we get for this money. It can't keep growing at the current pace or it will bankrupt the province and country.

This is true.

Privatization is not the way to go though. We need to somehow improve efficiency because the system is going to be overloaded really soon. The way our healthcare system runs currently is unsustainable with the baby boomers needing medical attention in the next decade or two. If nothing changes, we can expect the 45% to jump up to well over 50%.

I have not looked too much into this, but, it is scary.

[kasianman]

I shake my head at Canadians that want to privatize health care despite the proven savings.

For a taste of what health care would like if privatized watch the fifth estate. The same shinanigans by the insurance companies.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/03/08/travel-insurance-marketplace.html

if our system is a fail Shann the privatized system is absolutely massive failure of epic proportions. I'll take our system anyday.

Looks like the couple only has to pay $346,000 out of their own pocket for using the private health care system in US.
Private health care WIN-WIN right?
lol

For those who are rooting for private health care, I just can't understand you guys...
If you're a millionaire-billionaire, sure why not?
Otherwise, one major surgery can bankrupt you and wipe out your entire saving/retirement plan.

Do you guys think that you will not use the hospital services for major procedures when you get old?

[DearSummer]

Looks like the couple only has to pay $346,000 out of their own pocket for using the private health care system in US.
Private health care WIN-WIN right?
lol

For those who are rooting for private health care, I just can't understand you guys...
If you're a millionaire-billionaire, sure why not?
Otherwise, one major surgery can bankrupt you and wipe out your entire saving/retirement plan.

Do you guys think that you will not use the hospital services for major procedures when you get old?

Privatization does not necessarily have to mean the end of universal healthcare or a single-payer system.

Also, even in a private healthcare system insurance could cover major procedures. A fire could burn your house tomorrow. Fortunately, you probably have insurance to cover you in case that happens.

[divx]

45 cents of every tax dollar that comes in the door is already spent on healthcare. I don't think that's necessary bad, but we need to maximize the service we get for this money. It can't keep growing at the current pace or it will bankrupt the province and country.

there are people getting paid big bucks to figure this out.

[Piro21]

Looks like the couple only has to pay $346,000 out of their own pocket for using the private health care system in US.
Private health care WIN-WIN right?
lol

For those who are rooting for private health care, I just can't understand you guys...
If you're a millionaire-billionaire, sure why not?
Otherwise, one major surgery can bankrupt you and wipe out your entire saving/retirement plan.

Do you guys think that you will not use the hospital services for major procedures when you get old?

Public health insurance is the way to go, just like public education, public utilities, public firefighters, etc. Private institutions may be able to add on a bit at the top, but the baseline still needs to be there.

[CDNPatriot]

Worse! Watch the show. People paid over 2500 to 3000 for medical coverage to Manulife. Look at the fraud that Manulife commits when they don't pay these people. And they get away with it!


Looks like the couple only has to pay $346,000 out of their own pocket for using the private health care system in US.
Private health care WIN-WIN right?
lol

For those who are rooting for private health care, I just can't understand you guys...
If you're a millionaire-billionaire, sure why not?
Otherwise, one major surgery can bankrupt you and wipe out your entire saving/retirement plan.

Do you guys think that you will not use the hospital services for major procedures when you get old?

[CDNPatriot]

Here is a link to the show which is a must see!

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2012/trippedup/

Yeah and in the 90s Dearsummer California experienced a horrible earthquake. To this day Allstate paid almost nothing to it's customers.

Watch the video on how the insurance company took thousands of dollars from people and in the end through legal technicalities (and that's stretching it) paid zilch!


Privatization does not necessarily have to mean the end of universal healthcare or a single-payer system.

Also, even in a private healthcare system insurance could cover major procedures. A fire could burn your house tomorrow. Fortunately, you probably have insurance to cover you in case that happens.

[vlado416]

you really think organ transplants are a medical conspiracy :facepalm: ? how dense are you?

are we "meant" to inject insulin into diabetics too? they should've just died from hyperglycemia amirite :facepalm: :facepalm:

How conveniently naive are you to think that human parts can be exchanged ?
Strangely enough all these operations and procedures are enough to bankrupt people and thus commit a huge transfer of wealth.
Everyone knows that all the organs serve many functions that can't even be quantified , for example it is well known that the heart contains love , soul and emotions.
We are born with perfectly good parts but they go out if you stop using them or they outlive their usefullness.
Strangely enough, people have gotten this wrong impression that they can abuse their body and then just do a quick fix. What happens always
is that one part starts going out, the others go out as well since all the organs are connected to the brain. What a failure it is to die or live out the last
knowing that you are not even a whole person but some weird concoction. But don't ask the medical establishment , they are busy cashing in.

[vlado416]

Well the heart isnt supposed to fail and kill the body in a perfect scenario either. You dont think the politician was walking around literally without a heart do you? Do you believe that once an organ fails you should die instead of trying to fix the problem if the only option is to replace it?

He is gonna die and soon anyway especially if he believes it but at least you can die in dignity in one piece instead of taking away your soul but I guess these people have lost their soul long ago.The heart is a pretty hard thing to fail but like everything it does fail after years of abuse. It's usually by people who abhor physical labour and are too self centered.

[DearSummer]

How conveniently naive are you to think that human parts can be exchanged ?
Strangely enough all these operations and procedures are enough to bankrupt people and thus commit a huge transfer of wealth.
Everyone knows that all the organs serve many functions that can't even be quantified , for example it is well known that the heart contains love , soul and emotions.
We are born with perfectly good parts but they go out if you stop using them or they outlive their usefullness.
Strangely enough, people have gotten this wrong impression that they can abuse their body and then just do a quick fix. What happens always
is that one part starts going out, the others go out as well since all the organs are connected to the brain. What a failure it is to die or live out the last
knowing that you are not even a whole person but some weird concoction. But don't ask the medical establishment , they are busy cashing in.

Please tell me this is a joke. :facepalm:

[vlado416]

supply and demand, it's not easy to obtain a human heart so it's probably worth the $800k price tag. What exactly is your problem?

The demand is artificial though .
The problem is that you don't see the problem with it and this is just a transfer of wealth but I guess the people who pay for it got it easy as well.

[vlado416]

Please tell me this is a joke. :facepalm:


every culture and traditional nation and religion connects heart with emotions and love, what's your confusion ?

[DearSummer]

every culture and traditional nation and religion connects heart with emotions and love, what's your confusion ?

Healthcare = science. What you are talking about is not science.

[vlado416]

Healthcare = science. What you are talking about is not science.

"healthcare" = business sold to desperate, fearful and impressionable people or just people with more money than sense.
"science" = a grudge used by businessmen to justify their materialistic , non sensical , baseless stance.
Why are businessmen and scientists so hostile to logic and traditional cultures?

[rsasp]

What else would you expect when the government is in charge of healthcare, they will continue to make it more expensive and reduce the quality and eventually bankrupt the country

And think you can afford health care when it goes privatization? Look how many people in USA can not afford health care.

[Agafaba]

How conveniently naive are you to think that human parts can be exchanged ?
Strangely enough all these operations and procedures are enough to bankrupt people and thus commit a huge transfer of wealth.
Everyone knows that all the organs serve many functions that can't even be quantified , for example it is well known that the heart contains love , soul and emotions.
We are born with perfectly good parts but they go out if you stop using them or they outlive their usefullness.
Strangely enough, people have gotten this wrong impression that they can abuse their body and then just do a quick fix. What happens always
is that one part starts going out, the others go out as well since all the organs are connected to the brain. What a failure it is to die or live out the last
knowing that you are not even a whole person but some weird concoction. But don't ask the medical establishment , they are busy cashing in.

I think I remember you now... its been a while since you posted on health issues. Would you say someone who has a heart transplant to survive has lost all their soul or simply the part that can handle love and emotions? Does that mean that you take the other persons soul, and your soul then moves on into the afterlife, or if you only lose part of it do you merge your soul into the soul of the heart you received? Can someone who has received a heart transplant ever love afterwards?

[divx]

How conveniently naive are you to think that human parts can be exchanged ?
Strangely enough all these operations and procedures are enough to bankrupt people and thus commit a huge transfer of wealth.
Everyone knows that all the organs serve many functions that can't even be quantified , for example it is well known that the heart contains love , soul and emotions.
We are born with perfectly good parts but they go out if you stop using them or they outlive their usefullness.
Strangely enough, people have gotten this wrong impression that they can abuse their body and then just do a quick fix. What happens always
is that one part starts going out, the others go out as well since all the organs are connected to the brain. What a failure it is to die or live out the last
knowing that you are not even a whole person but some weird concoction. But don't ask the medical establishment , they are busy cashing in.

the heart only has one purpose, that is to pump blood, they tried to make an artificial heart and it does work, except the machine is too big to fit inside the body. The stuff about love, soul and emotions if all in your head, literally, it's in the brain, thus brain can't be exchanged. Anyway, the rest of the body parts can be exchange, although it's kinda risky and costly, so people don't bother unless they gonna die anyways. If we can boost the supply of organs, then we can keep the cost down, but that's kinda hard.

[divx]

He is gonna die and soon anyway especially if he believes it but at least you can die in dignity in one piece instead of taking away your soul but I guess these people have lost their soul long ago.The heart is a pretty hard thing to fail but like everything it does fail after years of abuse. It's usually by people who abhor physical labour and are too self centered.

everybody dies, but if one can continuously have their organs replaced, then one can live forever.

[divx]

The demand is artificial though .
The problem is that you don't see the problem with it and this is just a transfer of wealth but I guess the people who pay for it got it easy as well.

What's the point of having money if you are gonna die? I'd go bankrupt to save myself.

[divx]

every culture and traditional nation and religion connects heart with emotions and love, what's your confusion ?

I never took a single biology course and I know that heart is a pump, are you one of the religious nut who believes earth is flat?

[divx]

"healthcare" = business sold to desperate, fearful and impressionable people or just people with more money than sense.
"science" = a grudge used by businessmen to justify their materialistic , non sensical , baseless stance.
Why are businessmen and scientists so hostile to logic and traditional cultures?

why is a religious nut preaching about logic?

[vlado416]

I think I remember you now... its been a while since you posted on health issues. Would you say someone who has a heart transplant to survive has lost all their soul or simply the part that can handle love and emotions? Does that mean that you take the other persons soul, and your soul then moves on into the afterlife, or if you only lose part of it do you merge your soul into the soul of the heart you received? Can someone who has received a heart transplant ever love afterwards?

Most probably. I have heard that some people who had these transplants and have different emotions and memories of other people

[MrKap]

I thought that Canadian life expectancy was going up. That somehow must be related to health care.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2010/02/23/life-expectancy-canada.html

This claims that by the year 2025, 26 countries will have life expectancies above 80 years, but Canada is already there. It might have been written in 1998 though, so, I don't how relevant it is.

http://www.who.int/whr/1998/media_centre/press_release/en/index3.html


By the year 2025, 26 countries will have a life expectancy at birth of above 80 years. It will be highest in Iceland, Italy, Japan and Sweden (82 years) followed by Australia, Canada, France, Greece, Netherlands, Singapore, Spain and Switzerland (81 years).

I also thought that McMaster in Hamilton was leading the pack with medical technology and research? This article claims there are breakthroughs being made everywhere across the country.

http://www.canadianmedicinenews.com/2007/11/canadas-greatest-medical-research.html

It was written in 2007, so I am unsure of recent developments, but this is 2006 alone.


2006 Discovery of the precise molecular chain of events that initiates the wide-scale immune destruction of “super bug” infections such as flesh-eating disease, toxic shock syndrome and severe food poisoning. (Robarts Research Institute — London, Ontario)

2006 Implantation of an antibody-coated stent into the first human patient. The invention of the antibody-coated stent reduces restenosis and prevents blood clots from occurring. (St. Michael’s Hospital — Toronto, Ontario)

2006 World’s first clinical trial to combine gene and cell therapy to treat a cardiovascular disorder. The PHACeT (Pulmonary Hypertension: Assessment of Cell Therapy) trial will assess the use of adult stem-like cells called endothelial progenitor cells (EPC) for the treatment of pulmonary hypertension. (St. Michael’s Hospital — Toronto, Ontario)

2006 First demonstration that children with cystic fibrosis have choline deficiency. Provision of choline improves redox balance and methyl transfer capacity in humans. (Provincial Health Services Authority/BC Children’s Hospital – Vancouver, British Columbia)

2006 First demonstration that dietary omega-3 fatty acid deficiency impairs neurogenesis in vivo (Provincial Health Services Authority/BC Children’s Hospital – Vancouver, British Columbia)

2006 First curative therapy for Huntington Disease in a mouse model (Provincial Health Services Authority/BC Children’s Hospital, Vancouver, British Columbia)


So who knows, maybe they are spending too much? Do we need to be that far out ahead?