New Federal Budget Comes Down - Highlights

[LonesomeDove]

The age eligibility for Old Age Security rises to 67, starting in 2023.

The penny gone by 2015.

$5 Billion in Cuts, including $1 Billion Cut in Defense

19,200 civil servants to go.

[LonesomeDove]

10% cut to the CBC.

The exemption for cross border shopping goes up.

24 hours in the USA - $50 exemption rises to $200.

48 hours in the USA - $400 exemption rises to $800.

[fashionelle1]

As of tomorrow, if you're between the age of 50-54, OAS can be retrieved between the ages of 65-67

Under 50, OAS can be retrieved at 67.

I'm sure my mother will be thrill hearing this news .. >.<

[MrKap]

Who cares if public servants get fat paychecks if it only lasts a couple years?


19,200 civil servants to go.

You know it doesn't seem like a lot but it's the equivalent to putting an entire city out of work. A small city, but still...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_metropolitan_areas_in_Cana da

[the_fm]

The exemption for cross border shopping goes up.

24 hours in the USA - $50 exemption rises to $200.

48 hours in the USA - $200 exemption rises to $800.

that's the good part :cheesygri

[particleman]

I have yet to read any confirmation if they cut back the platinum plated MP pensions. With regards to the raising of the retirement age, it looks like our generation gets screwed again, pay everything, but never get to see the benefits. The boomers once again get off clean.

[BoogieWilliams]

19 200 cuts good luck getting a government job. Why are we still involved with the international space station?

[zaius]

10% cut to the CBC.

The exemption for cross border shopping goes up.

24 hours in the USA - $50 exemption rises to $200.

48 hours in the USA - $200 exemption rises to $800.

48 hour exemption was originally $400.

[sandikosh]

10% cut to the CBC.

The exemption for cross border shopping goes up.

24 hours in the USA - $50 exemption rises to $200.

48 hours in the USA - $200 exemption rises to $800.

The government doesn't want to support the local retailers?

[LonesomeDove]

48 hour exemption was originally $400.

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I corrected it.

[konfusion666]

Interesting. I'm sure it'll take a while for the budget to get "digested" and the more juicy inner details get published.

But damn, 19.2k fed employees out of work? That will take it's toll on the Ottawa economy, methinks...

I assume the layoffs will be staggered over the course of a few years and probably include lots of attrition, voluntary retirement plans, etc.

[ishfish]

But damn, 19.2k fed employees out of work? That will take it's toll on the Ottawa economy, methinks...

I assume the layoffs will be staggered over the course of a few years and probably include lots of attrition, voluntary retirement plans, etc.

There are creative ways of hiding employees - for example taking them out of being a direct govt employee and moving them into something else that is still tax-paid - say, health. Or slowly and quietly hiring them back.

[sunnycnm5]

needed more cuts but I guess satisfactory.

I trust their choices.

[dealman5]

10% cut to the CBC.

The exemption for cross border shopping goes up.

24 hours in the USA - $50 exemption rises to $200.

48 hours in the USA - $400 exemption rises to $800.

Not sure how that helps out Canada...but not gonna complain

[Chuck Garabedian]

Yup, once again Gen X'ers get shafted. Baby Boomers get off scott free and pensions will be back up for the Gen Y's and Millennial.

[plymouthhater]

As of tomorrow, if you're between the age of 50-54, OAS can be retrieved between the ages of 65-67

Under 50, OAS can be retrieved at 67.

I'm sure my mother will be thrill hearing this news .. >.<

I just squeaked in under the wire - my 55th birthday is next week :)

[particleman]

You'd figure that boomers having lived in the most prosperous period ever, and sitting on houses worth a fortune after seeing an unprecedented rise in housing prices, could sacrifice the 2 years like us under 50 years old. But nope the government can't afford to anger such a large voting demographic.


Yup, once again Gen X'ers get shafted. Baby Boomers get off scott free and pensions will be back up for the Gen Y's and Millennial.

[No Frills]

Yup, once again Gen X'ers get shafted. Baby Boomers get off scott free and pensions will be back up for the Gen Y's and Millennial.

+1 for gen x. gen y and millenial might be working until theyre dead lol

[CDNPatriot]

The war on the middle class continues.

Great so now these old stinking baby boomers who have had it so easy in life get to work until 67 while youth sit and watch them work. What a crazy world we live in. All thanks and courtesy to the CEOs of US financial institutions that got involved with those crazy financial products.


The age eligibility for Old Age Security rises to 67, starting in 2023.

The penny gone by 2015.

$5 Billion in Cuts, including $1 Billion Cut in Defense

19,200 civil servants to go.

[CDNPatriot]

Yup, once again Gen X'ers get shafted. Baby Boomers get off scott free and pensions will be back up for the Gen Y's and Millennial.

+100

Gen X is the worst generation and most deprived.

[DearSummer]

The war on the middle class continues.

Great so now these old stinking baby boomers who have had it so easy in life get to work until 67 while youth sit and watch them work. What a crazy world we live in. All thanks and courtesy to the CEOs of US financial institutions that got involved with those crazy financial products.

No blame for the people who bought things they couldn't afford? No blame for the government's involvement?

Nobody was complaining when everybody was living in a McMansion with 2 gas-guzzling SUVs in the driveway and 5 flat screen TVs in the house.

[discostupid]

No blame for the people who bought things they couldn't afford? No blame for the government's involvement?

Nobody was complaining when everybody was living in a McMansion with 2 gas-guzzling SUVs in the driveway and 5 flat screen TVs in the house.

I think the whole point is that the people who are currently living in McMansions with SUVs and TVs are the ones who are NOT being affected by these changes, and the rest of the population WILL be affected in their old age.

Canada is really deteriorating. I think I have to leave soon =(

[Shaner]

$295 million was cut from Canada Corrections budget, but not before Canada Corrections spent $4 million on a new soccer pitch, baseball diamond and weight pit for the inmates at a certain federal penitentiary.

When you see things like this on a regular basis, is it any wonder why I'm hesitant to agree that any middle class public sector worker should have to give anything back?

[Phoenix3434]

$295 million was cut from Canada Corrections budget, but not before Canada Corrections spent $4 million on a new soccer pitch, baseball diamond and weight pit for the inmates at a certain federal penitentiary.

When you see things like this on a regular basis, is it any wonder why I'm hesitant to agree that any middle class public sector worker should have to give anything back?

So you don't want the prisoners to live like humans?

I am surprised. I thought all you socialists were bleeding hearts.

[MrKap]

+1 for gen x. gen y and millenial might be working until theyre dead lol

Gen X is going to grind the system to a halt and let Gen Y lead the next cultural revolution. You watch.

I am, pretty sure the voice of Gen Y has been nothing but revolution. I am sort of kidding, but not really.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/for-generation-x-its-all-work-and-no-kids-study-finds/article2174324/


According to research by the Center for Work-Life Policy in the United States, 43 per cent of women born between 1965 and 1978 - they’re 33 to 46 today - have put off having kids or will have none. This is also true for 32 per cent of Gen X men.

Gen Xers should be at the prime of their lives and careers, stepping into crucial leadership roles and starting families, according to a release by the researchers. But that’s not the reality - and it means they are the first generation who will not match their parents’ living standards.

[deltone]

$295 million was cut from Canada Corrections budget, but not before Canada Corrections spent $4 million on a new soccer pitch, baseball diamond and weight pit for the inmates at a certain federal penitentiary.

When you see things like this on a regular basis, is it any wonder why I'm hesitant to agree that any middle class public sector worker should have to give anything back?

Seriously? Four million? Disgusting. Any idea on how much of this was labour and how much was material? Why couldn't they have built their own diamond, etc.?

[anyasok]

Try to balance the books future finance ministers :)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/so-you-wanna-be-finance-minister-try-balancing-ottawas-books/article2371543/

I eliminated RRSP, increased federal income tax rate by 1%, increased tax rate for income above $250k, made 10% across the board cut to federal/crown corporations, cut the defense budget, cut the CRA budget by 10%, raised retirement age and increased GST by one percent while increasing GST checks as well and voila! I'm at $1.9 billion SURPLUS

[flashy_mcflash]

I don't know about you guys but I just don't feel alive unless I have a baseball diamond.

[Phoenix3434]

Seriously? Four million? Disgusting. Any idea on how much of this was labour and how much was material? Why couldn't they have built their own diamond, etc.?

Not a direct question to you Deltone.. Just to any socialist on this thread..

Why would you condone slave labour to prisoners, i.e. make them work for nothing, etc. But, want to give free money to certain government workers or welfare claimants. Obviously, prisoners are criminals (for the most part). But, why does that make them lesser humans wrt not receiving the socialist generosity? Shouldn't they get free money while in prison, so that when they come out, they have money to make something of themselves? What do you guys think? It's difficult for them to form the middle class, if they have no money when they come out.

[flashy_mcflash]

Why would you condone slave labour to prisoners, i.e. make them work for nothing, etc. But, want to give free money to certain government workers or welfare claimants. Obviously, prisoners are criminals (for the most part). But, why does that make them lesser humans wrt not receiving the socialist generosity? Shouldn't they get free money while in prison, so that when they come out, they have money to make something of themselves? What do you guys think? It's difficult for them to form the middle class, if they have no money when they come out.

What the christ kind of strawman is this? Who is saying to hand prisoners fat stacks of cash? Where are these so-called socialists and do they exist in any space other than between your ears?

[robster77]

"Ottawa says it won’t be policing consumer-business transactions, but added that “businesses are expected to round prices in a fair, consistent and transparent manner.”
- Globe & Mail
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________

The Harper Government™ says they won’t monitor businesses to assess if they are rounding up or rounding down. I’m guessing we’ll see a whole lot of rounding up so now everything that cost between $1.01-$1.04 will now cost $1.05. I'm confident we'll see no rounding down, despite the government's plead that businesses "pinky swear".

[ishfish]

Not a direct question to you Deltone.. Just to any socialist on this thread..

Why would you condone slave labour to prisoners, i.e. make them work for nothing, etc. But, want to give free money to certain government workers or welfare claimants. Obviously, prisoners are criminals (for the most part). But, why does that make them lesser humans wrt not receiving the socialist generosity? Shouldn't they get free money while in prison, so that when they come out, they have money to make something of themselves? What do you guys think? It's difficult for them to form the middle class, if they have no money when they come out.

Good points and interesting topic, maybe a separate thread?

[Shaner]

So you don't want the prisoners to live like humans?

I am surprised. I thought all you socialists were bleeding hearts.

I'm anything but a socialist.

[Agafaba]

Not a direct question to you Deltone.. Just to any socialist on this thread..

Why would you condone slave labour to prisoners, i.e. make them work for nothing, etc. But, want to give free money to certain government workers or welfare claimants. Obviously, prisoners are criminals (for the most part). But, why does that make them lesser humans wrt not receiving the socialist generosity? Shouldn't they get free money while in prison, so that when they come out, they have money to make something of themselves? What do you guys think? It's difficult for them to form the middle class, if they have no money when they come out.

Your right, I say equality for all! Next we should make inmates pay rent and fill out their taxes, and if they are going to be on welfare they have to pretend to look for a job (obviously they cant get one... they are in prison!)

[MrKap]

Not a direct question to you Deltone.. Just to any socialist on this thread..

Why would you condone slave labour to prisoners, i.e. make them work for nothing, etc. But, want to give free money to certain government workers or welfare claimants. Obviously, prisoners are criminals (for the most part). But, why does that make them lesser humans wrt not receiving the socialist generosity? Shouldn't they get free money while in prison, so that when they come out, they have money to make something of themselves? What do you guys think? It's difficult for them to form the middle class, if they have no money when they come out.

I am fairly sure that prisoners are not entitled to work, otherwise it is considered slavery. This claims it costs 4 Million dollars to keep them employed? How can anyone figure this stuff out?

CBC says they are working on military projects - http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/inside-politics-blog/2010/10/from-meals-to-wheels-prison-farm-workers-to-fix-military-vehicles.html


In addition to eggs and milk, some produced pork and beef. The food was sold to an array of clients including other correctional facilities while some of it was donated to food banks. The program lost roughly $4 million/yr and employed about 300 inmates.

A spokesperson for Correctional Service of Canada says approximately 30 inmates are now repairing military vehicles at Frontenac.

Considering it's a workforce of what? 300 people? Who cares? If they want a 4 Million dollar baseball diamond, why not?

http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2675814&archive=true


The intention of the Conservative government to close the prison farms for the purpose of constructing new regional 'super prisons' should come as no surprise. After all, this is a government that has consistently attempted to link public safety to harsher penalties, longer incarceration periods and more intense sanctions for anyone convicted of a crime. This government believes in retribution, retaliation and revenge. Rehabilitation has no place in the Conservative mantra, which has one objective: to put more Canadians in more prisons for longer periods of time.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer -- a position created by the Harper government -- has found that the Conservative 'Tough on Crime" agenda will result in a federal prison population increase of almost 30% at a cost of between $5 billion and $9 billion for the construction of new prisons.

[KDSet]

The exemption for cross border shopping goes up.

24 hours in the USA - $50 exemption rises to $200.

48 hours in the USA - $400 exemption rises to $800.
We will definitely be needing a section on RFD devoted to US deals. :cheesygri

[MrKap]

Don't forget to car pool and save on gas. Or is that a $200.00 allowance per car?

[deltone]

Not a direct question to you Deltone.. Just to any socialist on this thread..

Why would you condone slave labour to prisoners, i.e. make them work for nothing, etc. But, want to give free money to certain government workers or welfare claimants. Obviously, prisoners are criminals (for the most part). But, why does that make them lesser humans wrt not receiving the socialist generosity? Shouldn't they get free money while in prison, so that when they come out, they have money to make something of themselves? What do you guys think? It's difficult for them to form the middle class, if they have no money when they come out.

I actually don't think that they'd be doing it for nothing. They have free room and board (so to speak) and if they want any luxeries like a baseball diamond, soccer pit and whatever the other thing was that cost $4 million, then let them build it. What else do they have to do? Nothing comes for free, or at least it shouldn't. When my husband and I wanted a deck in our old house, HE built it and noboday paid him to do it because guess what? HE (we) used it, just like those prisoners use the sport things that cost $4 million. I'd rather see that money spent on senior citizens recreation, or recreation for innocent kids. Not saying to abuse the prisoners but I wouldn't be rewarding them either. Here in the US they have prisoners cleaning the road areas. You see them when you drive the highway. As far as them getting money while in prison, from what I understand, they do get some sort of "pay" albeit a small sum. Let's not forget WHY they are in prison.

As far as welfare claimants go, aside from the ones who are ill and inacapable of working, I'm not against making them work for their cheque either. I had a cousin (she has since passed away) who was on welfare for years. Actually for most of her adult life. She referred to her welfare cheque as her "pay".

[Wildcat64]

Useless Conservatives and spoiled Boomers...any Gen X'ers that support this Government or budget will deserve exactly what they get...nothing

[Phoenix3434]

I actually don't think that they'd be doing it for nothing. They have free room and board (so to speak) and if they want any luxeries like a baseball diamond, soccer pit and whatever the other thing was that cost $4 million, then let them build it. What else do they have to do? Nothing comes for free, or at least it shouldn't. When my husband and I wanted a deck in our old house, HE built it and noboday paid him to do it because guess what? HE (we) used it, just like those prisoners use the sport things that cost $4 million. I'd rather see that money spent on senior citizens recreation, or recreation for innocent kids. Not saying to abuse the prisoners but I wouldn't be rewarding them either. Here in the US they have prisoners cleaning the road areas. You see them when you drive the highway. As far as them getting money while in prison, from what I understand, they do get some sort of "pay" albeit a small sum. Let's not forget WHY they are in prison.

As far as welfare claimants go, aside from the ones who are ill and inacapable of working, I'm not against making them work for their cheque either. I had a cousin (she has since passed away) who was on welfare for years. Actually for most of her adult life. She referred to her welfare cheque as her "pay".

That is a very reasonable perspective. Based on what you said, I am presuming, your cousin did have to "work" to earn her "pay" - this is also reasonable. So, essentially, these are good examples of people getting paid based on what they deserve. No free lunch, etc. etc.

Now, I don't know where you stand on this next question. But, what about government employees do you think make them deserve more money than their real contribution to society? Their real contribution is established by the free market. Yet, they are protected and given benefits which are not supported by their real worth. Why are they privileged? (consider this on the backdrop of the conversation we just had regarding prisoners and welfare recipients).

[anyasok]

I am not sure if anyone mentioned it, but some EI changes were rolled in as well:

http://thestar.blogs.com/federalbudget/2012/03/ottawa-tweaks-ei-system-to-help-jobless.html#more

"Jobless Canadians receiving employment insurance benefits can now keep more of their earnings if they find temporary part-time work while still collecting EI benefits."

"A hypothetical unemployed dental hygienist named Jennifer has been laid off from her job and is receiving $450 a week in employment insurance benefits. She finds part-time work, which pays $600 a week. Under the current rules, Jennifer could earn up to 40 per cent of her EI benefits, or $180 a week, but would then have to give back $1 of benefits for every $1 earned. Her combined earnings and EI benefit would be $630 a week."

I can't believe I am saying it, but no matter how miniscule... it is at least a positive change....

[deltone]

That is a very reasonable perspective. Based on what you said, I am presuming, your cousin did have to "work" to earn her "pay" - this is also reasonable. So, essentially, these are good examples of people getting paid based on what they deserve. No free lunch, etc. etc.

Now, I don't know where you stand on this next question. But, what about government employees do you think make them deserve more money than their real contribution to society? Their real contribution is established by the free market. Yet, they are protected and given benefits which are not supported by their real worth. Why are they privileged? (consider this on the backdrop of the conversation we just had regarding prisoners and welfare recipients).

Actually, no, my cousin didn't work for her "pay". She had a sense of entitlement, that she was somehow owed this money. To her defense though, she was not well mentally so I will excuse her attitude for that reason as she was not a rational person.

As far as government employees go, I don't have a problem with the salaries that they earn. They get out of bed each morning and make the trek to their place of work and put in their 7.5 hours (or whatever they work) and they draw a salary which they earned. Who am I to suggest that they're not worth what they earn?

I will admit that I was one of those people who would complain about "why should we pay some glorified cashier at the LCBO or the Beer Store the sort of money they are earning while some cashier at Walmart makes way less?". My dear late son educated me on the flaws in my opinion. He spoke of exactly what Shaner complains about all the time. The erosion of the middle class. Sure, we could cut the salaries of all people working within any government departments, be it municipal, provincial, federal, and all of the other off shoots. What would happen then? Even less people could afford to buy a home so construction would stop. Even less people could afford to go out and eat in restaurants so that would affect construction as well as serving staff, food suppliers, and so on and so on. The list goes on and on but the bottom line is that we need these middle income employees, regardless of whether they are government workers as they do pay taxes, they do consume and they do keep the economy going. He explained it far more eloquently than I'm saying it but I can honestly say he opened my eyes and I stopped whining about all of the overpaid governent workers.

Now, I put the MP's and MPP's in a whole other category.

[MrKap]

Great for seasonal workers. Right? That Whig Article I posted earlier about prisoners being removed from the prison farm system, calling for an additional 50,000 agricultural workers.

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/workplaceskills/foreign_workers/sawp.shtml


Employers can hire seasonal agricultural workers from Mexico and certain Caribbean countries through the Seasonal Agricultural Worker Program (SAWP). Note that this stream is limited to on-farm primary agriculture.

But that might be round trip for agricultural workers. I don't know for sure.

What good is EI? Who has ever collected that?

In any event, it's good to know they terminated a prison farm system that cost 4 million to run, which they sold at profit, to put baseball diamonds in and place the burden of round trip Caribbean airfare and free housing on to the farm system. They don't even get to stay, they just take the money and leave. That's like hidden food tax.

Give it a few more years and all the engineering jobs in the military will be going to high risk offenders.

It impossible to figure this out.

[anyasok]

Now, I put the MP's and MPP's in a whole other category.
Now, why is that? I respect your approach, but MP's and MPP's also wake up every morning and put in their 7.5 hours, why should they be treated differently from the other government workers you mentioned?

[konfusion666]

Now, why is that? I respect your approach, but MP's and MPP's also wake up every morning and put in their 7.5 hours, why should they be treated differently from the other government workers you mentioned?

Unless your name is Rob Anders, then you wake up in the morning, come to work (House of Commons) and then go back to sleep again. :lol:

[anyasok]

Unless your name is Rob Anders, then you wake up in the morning, come to work (House of Commons) and then go back to sleep again. :lol:
At least they go to work... just like most other people... they're not sitting at home collecting "welfare" checks worth six figures...

[Phoenix3434]

As far as government employees go, I don't have a problem with the salaries that they earn. They get out of bed each morning and make the trek to their place of work and put in their 7.5 hours (or whatever they work) and they draw a salary which they earned. Who am I to suggest that they're not worth what they earn?


Many people would argue, "what they are worth" can be established by the free market. Not their worth as a "human" (saying this to preemptively negate the troll responses by some people), but their worth in the employment market. My personal opinion, is that this is the correct perspective.



I will admit that I was one of those people who would complain about "why should we pay some glorified cashier at the LCBO or the Beer Store the sort of money they are earning while some cashier at Walmart makes way less?". My dear late son educated me on the flaws in my opinion. He spoke of exactly what Shaner complains about all the time.


Those are great examples. Sorry to hear about your son.



The erosion of the middle class. Sure, we could cut the salaries of all people working within any government departments, be it municipal, provincial, federal, and all of the other off shoots. What would happen then? Even less people could afford to buy a home so construction would stop. Even less people could afford to go out and eat in restaurants so that would affect construction as well as serving staff, food suppliers, and so on and so on. The list goes on and on but the bottom line is that we need these middle income employees, regardless of whether they are government workers as they do pay taxes, they do consume and they do keep the economy going. He explained it far more eloquently than I'm saying it but I can honestly say he opened my eyes and I stopped whining about all of the overpaid governent workers.


Two responses to this:
1) Just to continue where we left off regarding prisoners and welfare recipients - why aren't these groups eligible for this same socialist treatment? The prisoners work in the prisons and have a difficult life. Shouldn't they be allowed to "be in the middle class" when they come out? B/c of the government interference in their affairs (rightfully so mind you), they have lost a lot of time and money. Why are we denying them an opportunity to be in the middle class by not giving them free money (as we are with government empl) - money that they don't "deserve" based on their contribution to society? --- the whole point of this discussion is to establish why "government workers" are so special at the expense of other special interest groups.
2) If the government employees don't get paid as much, my taxes won't increase as much. You say that this "middle class" requires money to keep the "economy going". You said otherwise, less homes will get built and less people will go to restaurants. What if I say that if the government doesn't tax me as much, I will buy another home, or that I will go to restaurants more often? Would that make up for the government employees buying less houses or going to restaurants less often? From a purely economic perspective (wrt keeping the "economy going") I would imagine that it would. The real question is this whole complex situation is "who gets to spend that money"? Me or Joe form the government. Since I pay more taxes, I think I should be able to spend that money instead of Joe. I'd like to go to a restaurant a couple of more times a year, even if it means Joe gets to go two times less. Why is that unfair?

[Agafaba]

At least they go to work... just like most other people... they're not sitting at home collecting "welfare" checks worth six figures...

How do you get a 6 figure welfare cheque?

[anyasok]

Many people would argue, "what they are worth" can be established by the free market. Not their worth as a "human" (saying this to preemptively negate the troll responses by some people), but their worth in the employment market. My personal opinion, is that this is the correct perspective.
That's a controversial statement... free market establishes that the only people that are worthy are the CEOs, successful entrepreneurs, etc (because clearly they succeeded in the capitalistic rat race) and everyone else is expendable and unworthy. There is no other definition when it comes to "free market". Government employees can still be considered part of the "free market" because the public sector still relies on people working and supporting the free market so they could afford to pay their workers but as long as you are making a certain amount of money you've beaten the odds in the rat race and you are successful.

I'd argue a better definition would be how much societal contribution a person made and have him be paid accordingly, but that would not longer be a "free market" system anymore and the points would be moot.

[anyasok]

How do you get a 6 figure welfare cheque?
I was alluding to "welfare" to make a point. You can substitute "welfare" to anything else that would suggest they're leeching from the system like the welfare recipients and not going to work

[DearSummer]

I'd argue a better definition would be how much societal contribution a person made and have him be paid accordingly, but that would not longer be a "free market" system anymore and the points would be moot.

That is precisely what a free market system is... :facepalm:

[Agafaba]

I was alluding to "welfare" to make a point. You can substitute "welfare" to anything else that would suggest they're leeching from the system like the welfare recipients and not going to work

How can anyone leach off the government in a way that makes 6 figures? Pensions dont count, unless you are against the idea of pensions in general.

[anyasok]

That is precisely what a free market system is... :facepalm:
Perhaps in a true free market system, but in our system that is purportedly free market but is in effect a plutocracy/corporatocracy, you can't really say that

[anyasok]

How can anyone leach off the government in a way that makes 6 figures? Pensions dont count, unless you are against the idea of pensions in general.
I thought I already explained myself...

Once more, I was comparing government employees to putative welfare recipients that collect 6-figure income cheques, don't go to work, etc so in effect, that would be a government worker (in my comparison) who would be sitting at home and collecting 6-figure income for doing nothing which I was saying was decidedly not the case.

And I am not against pensions... pensions are needed for people who are unable to secure their own safety net for retirement. Basically, for anyone who wasn't able to "capitalistically prosper", government should "socially" assistance them.

I'd hate to retire just on the pension though... unless i'm a public-sector worker...

[DearSummer]

Perhaps in a true free market system, but in our system that is purportedly free market but is in effect a plutocracy/corporatocracy, you can't really say that

And why is that? Government.

[anyasok]

And why is that? Government.
Of course its the government. Who else has the authority to cater to specific interest group? The in-between favoritism of big companies/bigwigs is all done under their umbrella. Just look at the memo from citibank from a few years back:
http://occupychristmas.org/files/plutonomy-1.pdf



Society and governments need to be amenable to disproportionately allow/encourage the few to retain that fatter profit share. The Managerial Aristocracy, like in the Gilded Age,
the Roaring Twenties, and the thriving nineties, needs to commandeer a vast chunk of that rising profit share, either through capital income, or simply paying itself a lot. We think that despite the post-bubble angst against celebrity CEOs, the trend of cost-cutting balance sheet-improving CEOs might just give way to risk-seeking CEOs, re-leveraging, going for growth and expecting disproportionate compensation for it

[spol]

Government has its hand in everything one way or another.

Market regulation and Market forces = Free market

Banking cartel and the government monopoly over money and credit ≠ Free market

[deltone]

Now, why is that? I respect your approach, but MP's and MPP's also wake up every morning and put in their 7.5 hours, why should they be treated differently from the other government workers you mentioned?

I used to work at a MPP's office, around 15 or so years ago. The waste that I witnessed would make you throw up, and they don't put in a full week, most of the time, at least a lot of them don't. I think what I really take exception to is their pensions, moreso than their salaries.

[MrKap]

This is a free system - http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-29/nigeria-loses-5-billion-a-year-to-oil-theft-thisday-reports


Nigeria loses $5 billion a year to the theft of oil in the Niger River delta, ThisDay reported, citing Mutiu Sunmonu, Managing Director of Shell Petroleum Development Company of Nigeria, a unit of Royal Dutch Shell Plc. (RDSA)

Unless the theft is stopped, revenue from Africa’s biggest oil industry to Nigeria’s government will continue to fall, the Lagos-based newspaper cited Sunmonu as saying yesterday during a meeting with the Executive Secretary of the Nigerian Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative, Zainab Ahmed, in Abuja, the capital.


In any event, governments are not protected from this idealistic concept of only the free and unprotected and the best are fit for survival. There is no magic shield around a government making it's public service sector less free.



All these government cuts have to be for a reason. Whether it be external pressures, or whether it is some sort of internal corruption, who knows. But they a free market to my understanding.

[deltone]

Many people would argue, "what they are worth" can be established by the free market. Not their worth as a "human" (saying this to preemptively negate the troll responses by some people), but their worth in the employment market. My personal opinion, is that this is the correct perspective.



Those are great examples. Sorry to hear about your son.



Two responses to this:
1) Just to continue where we left off regarding prisoners and welfare recipients - why aren't these groups eligible for this same socialist treatment? The prisoners work in the prisons and have a difficult life. Shouldn't they be allowed to "be in the middle class" when they come out? B/c of the government interference in their affairs (rightfully so mind you), they have lost a lot of time and money. Why are we denying them an opportunity to be in the middle class by not giving them free money (as we are with government empl) - money that they don't "deserve" based on their contribution to society? --- the whole point of this discussion is to establish why "government workers" are so special at the expense of other special interest groups.
2) If the government employees don't get paid as much, my taxes won't increase as much. You say that this "middle class" requires money to keep the "economy going". You said otherwise, less homes will get built and less people will go to restaurants. What if I say that if the government doesn't tax me as much, I will buy another home, or that I will go to restaurants more often? Would that make up for the government employees buying less houses or going to restaurants less often? From a purely economic perspective (wrt keeping the "economy going") I would imagine that it would. The real question is this whole complex situation is "who gets to spend that money"? Me or Joe form the government. Since I pay more taxes, I think I should be able to spend that money instead of Joe. I'd like to go to a restaurant a couple of more times a year, even if it means Joe gets to go two times less. Why is that unfair?

Thank you, regarding my son. It will be a year on 5 April. :(

As far as what government workers are worth, that's a question that doesn't have a simple answer. I will be honest with you, I was a federal government worker for around 11 years. I worked for what was then known as the Unemployment Insurance Commmission which then became Canada Employment & Immigration Centre and is now something different again. I saw a LOT of waste but in all honesty, it wasn't really in the salaries of the average worker. I remember earning the same, or even a bit less than a lot of my friends who worked in the private sector. At that time we had lousy benefits. There was no dental or prescription plans. They paid half of our OHIP contributions (which back then was paid for by the employee if your employer didn't cover it).

Most of the waste was in things like moving offices around, supplies, poor use of employees when it came to overtime, etc. etc. The actual salaries weren't that great. I can't speak for what they are now but I would assume they're still not fabulous. Also, people assume that all governemnt jobs are easy and a picnic. I can tell you that's not the case. I hated going into work as the job sucked, morale was horrible and the burnout was high.

At the end of the day, what it boils down to is it's hard for any of us to judge what an employee is worth as we typically don't know what they do and how do we compare? Truthfully, I really don't know what anyone is worth. Is a plumber worth what he is paid? Is an electrician? A server? A bank teller? I have no idea but what I do know is that if some get their way and all of these people start to earn minimum wage, our economy will look a lot worse than it does now. Oh, and you have to remember that governemt workers also pay taxes so they if you want to say that you and I pay their wages, you have to also allow that they are also paying their own wages as they don't get a tax discount because they are government workers.

[pkguy]

As for the nay-sayers comlaining that upping the exemption on bringing in goods from the US is going to hurt Canadian retailers.. bull.

This is exactly what is needed. We need more people heading into the US to shop because that is exactly what it is going to take to get Canadian retailers and manufacturers to LOWER their inflated prices.. We know they do it, even the Minister of Finance has told us that,, They do it because so far they've been able to get away with it.. Well maybe not for much longer if people vote with the passports,,Cdn retailers willwise up when it really really starts to hurt their bottom line because it really hasn't so far.

No sympathy from me

[deltone]

As for the nay-sayers comlaining that upping the exemption on bringing in goods from the US is going to hurt Canadian retailers.. bull.

This is exactly what is needed. We need more people heading into the US to shop because that is exactly what it is going to take to get Canadian retailers and manufacturers to LOWER their inflated prices.. We know they do it, even the Minister of Finance has told us that,, They do it because so far they've been able to get away with it.. Well maybe not for much longer if people vote with the passports,,Cdn retailers willwise up when it really really starts to hurt their bottom line because it really hasn't so far.

No sympathy from me

I feel the same way. I've been here in the US since the end of December and the deals you can get down here are amazing. Not just on clothing and shoes, and houseware stuff but even on food. The grocers here have these little loyalty key chain cards and seriously, some deals they offer make you want to shout "start the car". Even a lot of the restaurant chains. I sometimes "almost" feel guilty with all the freebies and coupons and offers they give. I NEVER shop at home anymore, other than Costco. It's a shame that I don't contribute to Canadian retailers anymore (much) but I just can't find the justification to do so. Sad, real sad.

[MrKap]

I don't drive, but what is 200.00 dollars worth of good across the border worth? Shouldn't it be an extra $50.00+ worth of gas anyways?

It used to be worth something to shop in the usa a long time ago, but I don't hear of people making the trip anymore. Maybe for Food?

It's more like a question, as I just don't buy a whole lot of stuff.


I feel the same way. I've been here in the US since the end of December and the deals you can get down here are amazing.

Well I guess you answered that.

[deltone]

I don't drive, but what is 200.00 dollars worth of good across the border worth? Shouldn't it be an extra $50.00+ worth of gas anyways?

It used to be worth something to shop in the usa a long time ago, but I don't hear of people making the trip anymore. Maybe for Food?

It's more like a question, as I just don't buy a whole lot of stuff.



Well I guess you answered that.

There is a store down here called Bass. Under the same umbrella as Calvin Klein, Izod and Van Huesen. They hand out loyalty cards so if you spend they track and then send you coupons based on your spending. My husband didn't buy much but he got an coupon emailed to him worth $20 with no stipulations. Flat out $20 off. So he went into Bass and saw a deal they had on shoes. Nice shoes, not junk. Buy one pair get 2 free. Yep, 2 free. Now you have to pay the full pop on the first pair so that was $80 so 3 pairs of $80 shoes for $80 total. But no, it didn't stop there. He had another coupon for 30% off so it brought it down to $56 and THEN he used the $20 off coupon and so he paid $36 for 3 pairs of shoes. Again, these are not junky shoes.

The stores will have 75% off and then you can use another coupon for another 30 or 40 % off. They are sometimes practically giving stuff away. Many stores allow stacking of coupons. There isn't a huge difference in the shelf price of most of the food but it's the specials and coupons that make the prices so good. It's actually amazing how they can do what they do.

Here is an example of what Costco had down here last week, online.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=11752596&whse=BC&topnav=&cm_sp=RichRelevance-_-categorypageHorizontalTop-_-PopularProductsInCategory&cm_vc=categorypageHorizontalTop|PopularProductsInC ategory

[MrKap]

!!!!

http://i44.tinypic.com/2s8fpxi.jpg

[CDNPatriot]

+ 100 these aging baby boomers retire with all the perks and get all the job security protection in collective agreements. Baby boomers need to retire early not later to give the young a chance to work.


Gen X is going to grind the system to a halt and let Gen Y lead the next cultural revolution. You watch.

I am, pretty sure the voice of Gen Y has been nothing but revolution. I am sort of kidding, but not really.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/for-generation-x-its-all-work-and-no-kids-study-finds/article2174324/

[MrKap]

+ 100 these aging baby boomers retire with all the perks and get all the job security protection in collective agreements. Baby boomers need to retire early not later to give the young a chance to work.

Maybe that is a real problem?

Half the workforce that went running for public sector work around the crisis, have now put a good few years of debt down into the education system and 19,200 new people have been added to the job seeking pool. I don't have the numbers, but it's probably not a stretch of the imagination.

Pretty sure the number of jobs that have been added to the system, are reasonably substantial as well though.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/subjects-sujets/labour-travail/lfs-epa/lfs-epa-eng.htm

2009 - 2011 there were almost 800,000 jobs added to the system. According to that link anyways. It also claims full time work is up, but I have seen elsewhere the number of people working at minimum wage is also up. It's been leveled off since 2011 though. Not a lot of work it would seem.

If those numbers are right, that potentially means that prior there was the equivalent of more than just a handful of full cities without employment. Canadians are not giving birth to that many people, right?


I am not confident that the number of people working is necessarily a good indicator of a healthy future. They are all probably burning out, making close to nothing in many instances, jmo... The whole disappearing middle class argument.


They all seem to be service jobs - http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/econ40-eng.htm

According to that link though, it is only accounting for 300,000 or so jobs since 2008. Does that mean the 500,00 other jobs don't exist?



These are way more relevant to the whole Gen X, Gen Y and Baby Boomer comparison.

http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/.3ndic.1t.4r@-eng.jsp?iid=16



Baby boomers need to retire early not later to give the young a chance to work.

Maybe with declining birth rates, more steady unemployment than ever, they have to work longer and people looking for an opportunity, don't have any real opportunities, nor are enough new opportunities being created for them even if the previous generations retired?


I can't be the only one with 10-13+ or so years in the workforce, several different careers, a moderate education, without once crossing the poverty line. Not once. Except in a Union for one lousy summer for one of the Baby Boomers cash crop industries that is no longer there anymore. There were probably about 3 years where I was at or near the lowest possible sustaining wage for the area. Other than that, pure poverty, riding on the backs of previous generations generosities. Which is probably why more Gen Ys than ever before are living at home longer. I am actually right on the boundary. I am both Gen Y and Gen X, depending on which ruleset is used. Okay, maybe there were another 3 years that were okay wages, and opportunity, but anyone would laugh at it. It was nothing by comparison to all these people wanting 3x as much right out of school.

I don't for the life of me, see how they think they're going to get it. Not by joining a rat race to claw each others faces out. They will bury themselves faster than ever.

Canada is just not an innovative country by comparison to others. Quick, name 3 innovative Canadian products.

[beerbaron105]

19 200 cuts good luck getting a government job. Why are we still involved with the international space station?

Because we need to be involved with something a little more substantial than throwing money at people who just don't want to work

[D-Roc]

There is a store down here called Bass. Under the same umbrella as Calvin Klein, Izod and Van Huesen. They hand out loyalty cards so if you spend they track and then send you coupons based on your spending. My husband didn't buy much but he got an coupon emailed to him worth $20 with no stipulations. Flat out $20 off. So he went into Bass and saw a deal they had on shoes. Nice shoes, not junk. Buy one pair get 2 free. Yep, 2 free. Now you have to pay the full pop on the first pair so that was $80 so 3 pairs of $80 shoes for $80 total. But no, it didn't stop there. He had another coupon for 30% off so it brought it down to $56 and THEN he used the $20 off coupon and so he paid $36 for 3 pairs of shoes. Again, these are not junky shoes.

The stores will have 75% off and then you can use another coupon for another 30 or 40 % off. They are sometimes practically giving stuff away. Many stores allow stacking of coupons. There isn't a huge difference in the shelf price of most of the food but it's the specials and coupons that make the prices so good. It's actually amazing how they can do what they do.

Here is an example of what Costco had down here last week, online.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=11752596&whse=BC&topnav=&cm_sp=RichRelevance-_-categorypageHorizontalTop-_-PopularProductsInCategory&cm_vc=categorypageHorizontalTop|PopularProductsInC ategory

And this is why I wished I lived closer to the border. Driving 1.5 hours to go shopping is just hard for me to justify or I would.

[deltone]

And this is why I wished I lived closer to the border. Driving 1.5 hours to go shopping is just hard for me to justify or I would.

Same here. I get to spend 3 months each winter down here and then I go for just under a week each April, July and October. There may be a few other little trips scattered in there but I get most of my shopping done while down here. I alrady have most of my Christmas shopping done as well as most of my birthday gift shopping done for the year. I saved a boatload of money and got only quality stuff at a fraction of the cost, not to mention a much better variety and selection.

Oh, and based on my husband's little shopping episode at Bass the other day (the shoes), he just got another $10 coupon. It just never ends.

I have noticed that a lot of services don't seem cheaper. Things like haircuts, pedicures, manicures etc. I'm not sure about car repairs as I've not had to get my car fixed here but car washes seem pretty much the same price.

[particleman]

It looks like there is no change in the platinum plated MP pensions. This conservative government is so hypocritical. MPs have the most ridiculous pension scheme in the country yet they go untouched. People may not have the greatest of memories from the Mike Harris years, but you have to respect him for eliminating the pensions of MPPs and leading by example when he made his austerity budgets.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/mps-gold-plated-pensions-untouched-by-budget-no-change-before-next-election-144957165.html

[eliab]

was there anything mentioned about co-op students in the government, student bridging, students on fswep terms?

I am working with DND on fswep terms and I graduate soon with a business degree, so I'm really eager to find out if there are any breaks for people like me?:cheesygri

[gilboman]

they should've fixed their mistake of cutting the GST portion of the HST to 5%, what kind of idiots reduces their income when they are in deficit?

Geeze..I'm poor and cashflow negative...let's reduce my income!!! :facepalm:

[gilboman]

That is precisely what a free market system is... :facepalm:

not sure if serious

[BongoBong]

they should've fixed their mistake of cutting the GST portion of the HST to 5%, what kind of idiots reduces their income when they are in deficit?

Geeze..I'm poor and cashflow negative...let's reduce my income!!! :facepalm:

What do you mean cutting the GST portion to 5%? GST was 5% before HST was implemented. Plus its the same rate across the country, I don't see how ontario's could be cut.

[Mark77]

Your right, I say equality for all! Next we should make inmates pay rent and fill out their taxes, and if they are going to be on welfare they have to pretend to look for a job (obviously they cant get one... they are in prison!)

We do require inmates to file tax returns in the same fashion that all other Canadians do.

Also, it has been said that the first visit a newly convicted individual who may have earned money through crime receives in jail is usually from a CRA officer.

[LostInTruth]

+1 to Bass.

Personally, I'm not a fan of outlet shopping, but I wish the exemption started sooner, say this Easter long weekend.

[Mark77]

Another highlight that may have been missed -- Canadians can now rent cars in the USA, to drive across Canada for up to 30 days. At the border, an individual who does this will be assessed an 'import amount' equal to $200 per week for cars, and $300 for light trucks, vas, and SUVs. This amount may fall under the personal exemptions (raised, of course).

This will probably make cross-border car rentals a lot easier, as formerly, a Canadian who rented a car in the USA could not bring that car into Canada without paying taxes on the entire car.

[manmanny]

they should've fixed their mistake of cutting the GST portion of the HST to 5%, what kind of idiots reduces their income when they are in deficit?

Geeze..I'm poor and cashflow negative...let's reduce my income!!! :facepalm:

HeeHeeHee.

You have no idea how Elections are won. May be need history lessons.


No regrets as GST turns 20: Mulroney (http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2010/12/28/gst-anniversary.html)

Conservative Stephen Harper. Harper won his first minority after promising to slice the GST by two percentage points.

http://i.thestar.com/images/f1/1c/572c875948ffa75723c9805ba193.jpeg
"Axe the Tax"

[damnos]

As far as what government workers are worth, that's a question that doesn't have a simple answer

You can get a lot from observation.

Pay somebody to SIT in an air-conditioned glass box all day close to or even more than $100k? On top of this their job is customer service and they don't know a single thing about customer service because they are very rude and they are often clueless about what's going on in the system (eg. subway shutdown and they still let people in without any notification).

And personally, my company has some crown corporation clients - one of them in particular - is highly highly wasteful. The way our company get paid is by the hour, and they make us do all kind of projects and change requests, spending hours and hundreds of thousand of dollars to which they consistently simply decide not to release the product (cancelled project), this is after $$$ and hours spent, and it's not that it happens once or twice, it happens practically every other projects that we have we them. And we just figured out at least one of the guys we are in contact with at the crown corporation, who we found very incompetent in doing his job (he's a PM and very very slow in responding to anything and clueless about what the project is about), he's on the Ontario sunshine list.

EDIT:
If you just think of it a little bit, if you run a company, any company, the way the government is run (including the way government pay salaries, pensions, perks, etc), it won't be too long before the company goes out of business. The only reason government is still alive is because they have practically unlimited wallet by way of increased taxation - but it's not really unlimited, just look at Greece.

[LisaB]

I'm sad to see the end of the Katimavik program. It was enriching for the young and gave so much to our social services.

[Agafaba]

We do require inmates to file tax returns in the same fashion that all other Canadians do.

Also, it has been said that the first visit a newly convicted individual who may have earned money through crime receives in jail is usually from a CRA officer.

Ya I completely messed up, I was meaning to say fill out their welfare payments on their returns (a given anyway, so I dont know why I typed it). I wasnt paying much attention to that post :lol:

[DearSummer]

not sure if serious

In a free market, dollars are votes. People "vote" for what they think somebody else's contribution is worth. Everytime you buy anything it is a vote for that product or service (i.e. you are paying for what that product/service contributes to your life). What do you not understand about this?

[MrKap]

In a free market, dollars are votes. People "vote" for what they think somebody else's contribution is worth. Everytime you buy anything it is a vote for that product or service (i.e. you are paying for what that product/service contributes to your life). What do you not understand about this?

It's very close to that. However let's say I buy a Mars bar, instead of a Snickers. Where did my money go?

[DearSummer]

It's very close to that. However let's say I buy a Mars bar, instead of a Snickers. Where did my money go?

Huh? Your money went to the owners of Mars and their supply chain...

[gilboman]

You can get a lot from observation.

Pay somebody to SIT in an air-conditioned glass box all day close to or even more than $100k? On top of this their job is customer service and they don't know a single thing about customer service because they are very rude and they are often clueless about what's going on in the system (eg. subway shutdown and they still let people in without any notification).

And personally, my company has some crown corporation clients - one of them in particular - is highly highly wasteful. The way our company get paid is by the hour, and they make us do all kind of projects and change requests, spending hours and hundreds of thousand of dollars to which they consistently simply decide not to release the product (cancelled project), this is after $$$ and hours spent, and it's not that it happens once or twice, it happens practically every other projects that we have we them. And we just figured out at least one of the guys we are in contact with at the crown corporation, who we found very incompetent in doing his job (he's a PM and very very slow in responding to anything and clueless about what the project is about), he's on the Ontario sunshine list.

EDIT:
If you just think of it a little bit, if you run a company, any company, the way the government is run (including the way government pay salaries, pensions, perks, etc), it won't be too long before the company goes out of business. The only reason government is still alive is because they have practically unlimited wallet by way of increased taxation - but it's not really unlimited, just look at Greece.

did you take your meds today?

too bad not everybody can be as competent as SNC Lavin

[anyasok]

You can get a lot from observation.

Pay somebody to SIT in an air-conditioned glass box all day close to or even more than $100k? On top of this their job is customer service and they don't know a single thing about customer service because they are very rude and they are often clueless about what's going on in the system (eg. subway shutdown and they still let people in without any notification).

And personally, my company has some crown corporation clients - one of them in particular - is highly highly wasteful. The way our company get paid is by the hour, and they make us do all kind of projects and change requests, spending hours and hundreds of thousand of dollars to which they consistently simply decide not to release the product (cancelled project), this is after $$$ and hours spent, and it's not that it happens once or twice, it happens practically every other projects that we have we them. And we just figured out at least one of the guys we are in contact with at the crown corporation, who we found very incompetent in doing his job (he's a PM and very very slow in responding to anything and clueless about what the project is about), he's on the Ontario sunshine list.

EDIT:
If you just think of it a little bit, if you run a company, any company, the way the government is run (including the way government pay salaries, pensions, perks, etc), it won't be too long before the company goes out of business. The only reason government is still alive is because they have practically unlimited wallet by way of increased taxation - but it's not really unlimited, just look at Greece.
Its funny that you mention it.. indeed a corporation run like the government would be run into the ground a long time ago... and that's ALL governments, not just Canadian... so I figure its very alluring for people who would make for bad CEOs to assume similar positions behind the veil of the government :)

[damnos]

Mr. McGuinty told reporters in Ottawa Friday morning that the federal blueprint is “taking us in the right direction.” But he called on the Harper government to work with the provinces to address the fact that roughly one-third of Canadians will not have enough money during their retirement years.

“We think the best way to manage that challenge is to enhance the Canada Pension Plan,” Mr. McGuinty said. “I think we're always at our best when we work together.”

McGuinty always think about how can government (ie. taxpayers) pay for people's retirement.

Why don't he ever ask WHY do people don't have enough for retirement? Yes, some people do need help, but what percentage of those without enough retirement is because of their own personal spending: partying, eating out, booze, vacations, fancy cars, unnecessary big mortgage, etc etc ... those are things that are personal decision to spend money on, and if because of that they don't have enough for retirement, why do other taxpayers, some who are a lot more responsible with their own finances, have to pay for others' mistakes?

We need to stop subsidizing people for their own bad choices. If you can't afford it, don't spend it ... don't simply have fun and then cry that you don't have money for retirement.

[DearSummer]

McGuinty always think about how can government (ie. taxpayers) pay for people's retirement.

Why don't he ever ask WHY do people don't have enough for retirement? Yes, some people do need help, but what percentage of those without enough retirement is because of their own personal spending: partying, eating out, booze, vacations, fancy cars, unnecessary big mortgage, etc etc ... those are things that are personal decision to spend money on, and if because of that they don't have enough for retirement, why do other taxpayers, some who are a lot more responsible with their own finances, have to pay for others' mistakes?

We need to stop subsidizing people for their own bad choices. If you can't afford it, don't spend it ... don't simply have fun and then cry that you don't have money for retirement.

Don't worry, the government will take care of you. ;)

P.S. If you're in your 20s or 30s do you really believe the current entitlement programs will be in place when you retire? Maybe they will, maybe they won't. They almost certainly won't exist in their current form. Are you willing to bet your retirement on it? Any money I get from CPP, OAS, or any other entitlement program I would consider a bonus. Depending on an unsustainable system like that is insane IMO.

[MrKap]

Huh? Your money went to the owners of Mars and their supply chain...

So why doesn't mars bars or snickers offer a 5cent donation promotion for charities, ongoing?

Shouldn't that be my vote when deciding which chocolate bar deserves my money more?

I mean they are both sugar bars, they are basically the exact same thing.

[Faeton]

I'm sad to see the end of the Katimavik program. It was enriching for the young and gave so much to our social services.

For more than $13k tab a person that the government picked up, it better have been!

$14+ million/year for a program of only 1000 volunteers/year. There's a lot of better ways to spend that money.

[DearSummer]

So why doesn't mars bars or snickers offer a 5cent donation promotion for charities, ongoing?

Why should they? :confused:


Shouldn't that be my vote when deciding which chocolate bar deserves my money more?

The whole point is that you decide what to spend your money on. If you think charity is more important than chocolate bars, donate your money to charity instead of buying chocolate bars.


I mean they are both sugar bars, they are basically the exact same thing.

Except they aren't. It's like Coke vs. Pepsi. Maybe there are pretty similar but there are differentiators whether it is marketing, taste, price, etc. People vote on which they prefer every time they buy one.

[MrKap]

Well they aren't sustainable then if they can't support anything except the production of sugar bars. So what makes them worthy to exist?

They have to use the roads, that the government built. They are probably leaching water from the public water supply, ect...

[DearSummer]

Well they aren't sustainable then if they can't support anything except the production of sugar bars. So what makes them worthy to exist?

Why would they not be "sustainable"? What does that even mean? If people don't want sugar bars anymore, they will stop buying them and Mars will close down. See how the free market matches demand with supply?


They have to use the roads, that the government built. They are probably leaching water from the public water supply, ect...

That's why we all pay taxes, so that businesses can deliver the goods & services we want.

[spol]

How the hell did this thread turned into a discussion of Chocolate bars and charities?

[manmanny]

How the hell did this thread turned into a discussion of Chocolate bars and charities?

exactly. An Mods are not doing anything about it. Why does DearSummer feeds MrK?

[manmanny]

Why would they not be "sustainable"? What does that even mean? If people don't want sugar bars anymore, they will stop buying them and Mars will close down. See how the free market matches demand with supply?



That's why we all pay taxes, so that businesses can deliver the goods & services we want.

OP why you want to derail your own thread Unless you want that.

EDIT: OK This is not your thread DearSummer Sorry.

[DearSummer]

exactly. An Mods are not doing anything about it. Why does DearSummer feeds MrK?


How the hell did this thread turned into a discussion of Chocolate bars and charities?


OP why you want to derail your own thread Unless you want that.

EDIT: OK This is not your thread DearSummer Sorry.

My bad. Fell into the Mr Kap trap!

http://cdn.instanttrap.com/trap.jpg

[MrKap]

I am just trying to figure out how a chocolate bar is worthy of your "money spent" as an economic vote concept is supposed to work.



In any event, these budget cuts, I don't see anything horribly wrong with them. I am a little upset about the border allowance concept, but I would hope there is some sort of deal arrangement with US politicians to make perhaps an energy sale more appealing, or something, rather than it just be a fascist move to syphon money from local retailers.

[Shaner]

How the hell did this thread turned into a discussion of Chocolate bars and charities?

It's been MrKap'd.

That guy really is in a world all of his own. I can't understand his thought process at all. It just doesn't even make sense.

[MrKap]

It's been MrKap'd.

That guy really is in a world all of his own. I can't understand his thought process at all. It just doesn't even make sense.

How about encouraging people to leave their families to work with roofing contractors in kingston.

[Shaner]

I am a little upset about the border allowance concept, but I would hope there is some sort of deal arrangement with US politicians to make perhaps an energy sale more appealing, or something, rather than it just be a fascist move to syphon money from local retailers.

Do you know what fascist means?

[MrKap]

Yes, I do... I am absolutely certain that you don't understand the concept.

Shaner, try putting yourself in someone else's shoes. I am not talking directly to you, or specifically about your self interests at all times.

[Shaner]

How about encouraging people to leave their families to work with roofing contractors in kingston.

Different thread, no need to bring it into this one. But for the record, I encouraged him to leave a place he wasn't happy in. Doesn't matter where your family lives, if you're not happy, you should go someplace you can be happy in. So what's your point?

[spol]

I am just trying to figure out how a chocolate bar is worthy of your "money spent" as an economic vote concept is supposed to work.

I know you're a good guy so if you genuinely are interested in free market theories and how it would work then read up some related books man!

You don't have to agree with anything in the book just read up so you understand why some people believe in what they believe in, so even if you still disagree with it then you can make a better and educated argument against it, rather than asking people to school you on how free market works so then you can show how it's flawed!?!

What's the point of making argument about something which you don't know much about? Honestly, It doesn't help anybody here.

I read the Communist manifesto not because I was a communist but to get into Karl Marx's head and understand where he is coming from. Now, when I get into an argument with true communist then at least I know what I'm talking about when I tell them their ideology is all backwards and I can point out the flaws.

[MrKap]

I was reading about the nazi fascist "free market" the other day. But thanks for pointing out that I should brush up on my reading.


I read the Communist manifesto not because I was a communist but to get into Karl Marx's head and understand where he is coming from. Now, when I get into an argument with true communist then at least I know what I'm talking about when I tell them their ideology is all backwards and I can point out the flaws.

Communism is not necessarily facism. I mean it can be facist in some regards, but nazi facism, that's really taking control of people's businesses controlling the way the money flows, who buys from who, ect...

The nazis were on the left, they were not on the right. I mean communism and facism are both on the left.

What else could sending the "free wills" of the consumer across the border be interpreted as anyways? Liberating the US market?

It completely makes sense. Facism, read a dictionary. Not you, but probably Shaner.

[Shaner]

What else could sending the "free wills" of the consumer across the border be interpreted as anyways? Liberating the US market?

It completely makes sense. Facism, read a dictionary.

You can't send someone's "free will" anywhere. Do you understand the irony in that statement?

[MrKap]

You can't send someone's "free will" anywhere. Do you understand the irony in that statement?

Sure you can. That's what government does, they move everything around like pawns, carefully consider how much taxes should be paid, where roads should be build, which business are good for people, which ones are bad, the laws, ect...

Incentives = Moving Free Wills Around

[LonesomeDove]

I was reading about the nazi fascist "free market" the other day. But thanks for pointing out that I should brush up on my reading.



Communism is not necessarily facism. I mean it can be facist in some regards, but nazi facism, that's really taking control of people's businesses controlling the way the money flows, who buys from who, ect...

The nazis were on the left, they were not on the right. I mean communism and facism are both on the left.

What else could sending the "free wills" of the consumer across the border be interpreted as anyways? Liberating the US market?

It completely makes sense. Facism, read a dictionary. Not you, but probably Shaner.

Nazi is short for National Socialism. It is a common misconception among people who think NAZIS are on the right. You hear the term NAZI thrown around by leftists when they disagree with certain economic policies of the right. Which is incorrect in most instances.

[MrKap]

I agree, I think it was actually this forum that dropped a link to this a long time ago - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives


Leading figures of the left-wing Strasserist faction of the Nazi Party, along with its namesake, Gregor Strasser, were murdered, as were prominent conservative anti-Nazis (such as former Chancellor Kurt von Schleicher and Gustav Ritter von Kahr, who had suppressed Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch in 1923).

They pitched themselves as socialists, they executed socialist leaning politicians and right wing conservatives.

They took control of business, in the sense they allowed people to own their business, but the government essentially told them who to buy from, at what price, to whom to sell, ect...

I'm not saying the Ontario government is fascist, I just dropped a word comparing the incentive to shop across the border as a means to describe depriving local business, or encouraging those to shop elsewhere except with local businesses. I should hope they are offering the incentive as a means of a larger plan to benefit Ontario as a whole.


The Punks were on the Right - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KTsXHXMkJA - The Nazis were on the Left

[anyasok]

I know you're a good guy so if you genuinely are interested in free market theories and how it would work then read up some related books man!

You don't have to agree with anything in the book just read up so you understand why some people believe in what they believe in, so even if you still disagree with it then you can make a better and educated argument against it, rather than asking people to school you on how free market works so then you can show how it's flawed!?!

What's the point of making argument about something which you don't know much about? Honestly, It doesn't help anybody here.

I read the Communist manifesto not because I was a communist but to get into Karl Marx's head and understand where he is coming from. Now, when I get into an argument with true communist then at least I know what I'm talking about when I tell them their ideology is all backwards and I can point out the flaws.
Communist ideology is not backwards. The implementation of these ideologies was backwards though. Communism was never truly attempted on the scale and with the ideas that are necessary without the oversight of capitalism and totalitarianism and various flavours of corporatocracy/plutocracy that always accompanied it.