Why are vets so expensive you ask? Here's why.

[peachee]

WELL worth the read if you want to understand the cost of veterinary medicine. Having worked in veterinary clinics, I have experienced this first hand and know just how true it is.

Written by Dr. Marie Haynes, a veterinarian in Ottawa, Ontario.


Sometimes I hate my job. Well, that’s not true. I almost always love my job. But what I hate is that everything I do costs people money. Multiple times per day, I am helping people make decisions for their pets based on how much they can afford.

“All vets think about is money!”

“You don’t care about my pet, all you care about is getting rich!”

“Why does it cost so much to clean my pet’s teeth? My own dentist is cheaper!”

Unfortunately these are remarks that I hear on a regular basis. And I feel for you guys! It can be expensive to keep a pet healthy these days. I thought I would write this article to explain some of the facts about the financial side of veterinary medicine.

A veterinary hospital is a business:
Doesn’t that sound heartless? But it’s true...a vet clinic is a business and needs to make money. Just like any other business we have bills to pay (and often these bills are huge). We pay rent, electricity and gas bills. And we pay large bills to buy and maintain equipment. An xray machine costs anywhere from $30,000 to $90,000. An ultrasound is going to cost about the same. And there is a lot of other equipment that needs to be purchased and maintained - dental equipment (most veterinarians have similar equipment to what a human dentist has), equipment to run laboratory tests, surgical instruments, and on and on.

We also have salaries to pay. The staff at veterinary clinics are, in my opinion, usually severely underpaid for the quality of work that they do. A veterinary technician is an extremely skilled individual, able to place a catheter, draw blood, do a dental cleaning, counsel clients and multi-task animal care all day long. According to Payscale.com a Technician generally gets paid between $10 and $12 per hour.

It’s a crummy wage for someone with so many skills. Most technicians have gone to school for three years and carry some student debt. Compare this to a registered (human) nurse who gets paid between $20 to $36 dollars per hour. Why are techs paid so poorly? It's because we’d have to raise our prices in order to afford to pay them more.

What about the veterinarian’s salary?
I have a confession to make. I drive a BMW. There you go. Is this why vet bills are so expensive? To pad the pockets of greedy veterinarians? Well, here’s the rest of the story. My husband is a successful real estate agent. His recent business successes and hard work have paid for my car. Prior to this, for the last 10 years I have driven a 2002 Honda Civic. Now, there’s nothing wrong with a Civic...it’s a great car. But my point is that a veterinarian’s salary is not one that allows you to live in luxury.

Veterinarians on average have spent 7 years of their lives in college/university doing intensive study. According to the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, the average veterinarian graduates with a debt of a whopping $142,613! And, according to Payscale.com, a veterinarian generally makes between $45,000 and $106,000 depending on experience. Let’s compare this to a few other professions:

Family Physician: $75,000 - $204,000
Pharmacist: $50,000 - $130,000
Dentist: $61,000 - $201,000
Ophthalmologist: $93,000-$304,000
General Surgeon: $65,000 - $368,000
A veterinarian does all of the things that the professions above do, but usually gets paid much less. Many vets work 10-12 hour days, and some are on call throughout the night. We get scratched and bitten on a regular basis. A good amount of our day involves intensive grief counselling of clients. This is not a “cushy” job. It’s hard work!

Explaining the charges for a vet bill
I thought I’d explain the way that some things are charged for. I'll occasionally hear people talking about their vet, saying things like, “I was in there for 20 minutes and paid $200! I’m in the wrong profession!”

Here is an example scenario:

John brings his Golden Retriever, Andy to see me, Dr. Marie, because he has a problem with his ears. I have a good look at Andy from nose to tail and notice that the ears are red, inflamed and full of debris. The skin between the toes is a little red as well and there is saliva staining which shows me that he has been licking at his feet. (This is likely a sign of allergies). Otherwise, he looks good. I put a swab in each ear and hand them off to my technician. We have a good discussion about underlying allergies and what kind of things we can do in the future if things are getting worse. (I decide not to do allergy testing or special hypoallergenic food now because I don’t want John’s bill to be outrageous. We’ll consider those things in the future.) We talk about the type of things that cause infection and what we could do to prevent further ones. Ten minutes later, my technician tells me that the ears have yeast and cocci (bacteria). She takes Andy to the back to thoroughly clean his ears. We send him home with some medication to put in the ears twice a day and instructions to come back and see me in a few weeks.

Here are the costs for the visit, along with an explanation:

Office visit: $68.00.

What you’re paying for: The most important part of the office visit is the time and expertise of the veterinarian. In that 20 minute time period, the vet will examine the pet, make a diagnosis and share valuable information with you. I have had clients say things like, “I knew there was an ear infection! I didn’t need you to tell me that. I just needed medication.” But, it’s the vet’s experience that tells us how long we need to treat for, what medication is best, whether or not there are ear mites, whether we need to treat one ear or both, whether there is possibly a resistant type of bacteria present, whether the ear drum intact (because if not, then regular ear medications could be dangerous) and whether there is an underlying problem such as allergies or a thyroid condition.

This charge also covers the time that I take to make notes in your file. Did you know that almost everything that is discussed and done in your office visit is documented? This is often one of the most time consuming parts of the visit for the veterinarian.

Cytology: $31.00.

What you’re paying for: This is a lab test where we take the debris from the ear, put it on a slide, stain it and look at it under the microscope. Some clients will say, “Just give me the medicine that worked last time. I don’t need a test.” But this test tells me a lot. It usually tells me which medicine is best. It also tells me the severity. If I see a mild amount of bacteria I may just treat for 10 days. If I see lots, I could treat for 3 weeks. If I see rod bacteria, then I'm suspicious I'm dealing with a nasty pseudomonas infection and I know that I should be doing additional tests such as culturing the ear to find out exactly what the bacteria is and what medication is going to work.

At the recheck exam I do a cytology again and it tells me how well our treatment worked and whether we need to keep going. If we stop too soon then the infection will come back again. Spending a little money now and dealing with the problem properly can save you hundreds of dollars in the long run.

Ear cleaning: $28.00.

What you’re paying for: The expertise of the technician. Cleaning an infected, inflamed ear takes skill and expertise. If the ear is not properly cleaned, then the medicine is not going to work as well. If you don’t know what you are doing, then you can damage the ear drum which is a horrible thing.

Medication: $38.00.

What you’re paying for: The bulk of this charge is due to the cost of the medication. There is a markup on the cost, because (gasp) we are a business and yes, we do make some money off of medication. There is also a dispensing fee. This is another thing that people will gripe at. “Why charge me to put pills or cream in a bottle and slap a label on it?”. The dispensing fee also covers the explanation on how to use the drug and answering questions that you have about it.

Taxes: In my area the taxes on this bill would be $21.45.

Total: $186.45

[peachee]

Part 2...

What happens when clients can’t pay?
This is the part of my job I hate the most. I think every new veterinary graduate goes through a phase where you want to just pay for the bill for anyone who can't afford it so that no animal has to go without help. It truly sucks when an animal needs care but the owner is not able (or not willing) to pay for that care.

So, whose responsibility is it to make sure that that animal gets help? Let’s take the above scenario. Let’s say the client comes in with a $50 bill in his pocket and says, “Doc, I love my dog so much and I’ll do anything for him but all I have is $50. I know you love animals and don’t want him to suffer so please help.” What am I to do?

One one hand, I could look at the situation like this:

“Well, what does this actually cost me? The office visit and tests really only cost me time. So, if I just charged for the medication, this dog could have some relief.” But, how is that fair to the next person who comes in with a dog with an ear infection? What if I give an inappropriate medication (because I didn't do tests on the ear)? If the dog doesn't improve, is it then my fault? And what happens the next time this dog has a problem? Do I always give this owner a huge discount? What happens when he tells his friends that I gave him a huge discount? I’m sure there will be others who want the same treatment!

Here’s another, much more difficult scenario:

Need life saving surgery - but can't afford it!
Susan comes in with her beloved chihuahua, Peppy. Susan could not afford to spay Peppy and although she tried hard to keep her away from other dogs, a big dog jumped the fence in her yard and bred Peppy. Now, she is pregnant, in labor, and struggling. Susan comes in crying. She and I both know that Peppy’s going to need a C-Section in order to survive. She has $100 to pay me today. And she promises to pay me $100 per month until the bill is paid off.

A C-Section can cost anywhere from $800 to $2500 or even more if there are complications. Often, extra staff needs to be brought in and the costs to the clinic are significant. What do I do? What would you do if you were the vet?

Unfortunately, history tells me that if I set up a payment plan, I will not receive any of that money. Susan has good intentions, but good intentions don't pay bills. In 13 years of practice I have unfortunately been in this situation many, many times. In the past, when I have made arrangements for clients like this, it has been extremely rare that we have received the full payment for the bill. In most cases, we may get one or two payments. We end up spending money on collection agencies to try and get the rest of that payment back but usually it gets written off as bad debt.

So, whose responsibility is it to help the animals in a situation like this? Do I do the surgery, knowing that I will likely not get paid, simply because the dog needs it? (Keep in mind that a situation like this can happen several times per week in a veterinary hospital. Where do we draw the line?) Do I send the dog away and tell her to come back when she has the money?

Can you see why I hate this part of my job?

What can be done?
There are options for people who are in a difficult situation like this. These options are not always what the client wants to hear, but we have to set some limits. The first thing I do is give the client the option of using Medicard or Care Credit. These are financing agencies that will give you a loan to help you pay a veterinary bill. I hear the cries now, “I don't want to pay interest!”, “I have bad credit...I won’t get approved.”

If a client's credit rating is not good enough to be approved for one of these loans, then I ask the client to find a family member or friend who would be willing to lend them the money. Sometimes this is a solution.

But what happens when you have bad credit and no family or friends at all to help? If this is the case, then why should the veterinarian pay for your pet’s treatment? If your children are hungry and you can’t afford groceries, is it the responsibility of the grocery store to pay for their food?

Organizations:
Sometimes, we can draw on charity help in situations like this. In Ontario, where I practice, we have something called the Farley Foundation. This organization will give us up to $500 per year to help pay the veterinary bill of someone who has a documented disability. $500 is not a lot, but it can help. I get to use this once a year. It's often tough to choose which client gets the help.

Before my mom succumbed to cancer in 2001, she went to the veterinary hospital where I had worked in high school and asked if she could set up a fund to help people who had trouble paying their vet bills. (She did this because when I was growing up we struggled to pay our veterinary bills. She didn't want others to be in that situation.) When she died, instead of asking people to donate to the cancer society, she asked for donations to the fund in her name at the animal hospital. This helped many animals, and, to this day, people still contribute to this fund in order to help more pets. But, again, this can only go so far.

I have compiled a list of similar charities that help as much as they can. You can find this list here: organizations that help with veterinary bills. If you know of other organizations that do this, then leave me a comment below and I will add them to the list.

Humane Societies and the SPCA
If an animal is suffering and needs care, in many areas an option is to take them to the local humane society or SPCA. In the case of the dog needing a C-Section this is likely what I would have suggested. Many times the humane society or SPCA will take in the pet and do whatever medical care is necessary. The unfortunate thing is that in many cases you will need to sign the pet over to the care of the shelter and you may not get them back.

Conclusion:
Oh, how I wish that I could do my job and not care about how much things cost! For those of you reading this, I would highly advise that you look into getting pet insurance to cover you in case you find yourself in a financial bind. Or, if you are an organized person, put some money aside each month in an account that for your pet.

I sympathize with you on how expensive veterinary bills are. It would be so wonderful, as a vet, to be able to practice and make decisions for animals based on what they need rather than what their owners can afford (or are willing to pay). I do all I can to work with my clients’ budgets and to do the best for their pets. But, sometimes we do face difficult situations!

[Stock R]

TL; DR.

Same excuses as any other profession.

I studied for a long time. It costs money. I have overhead. It costs money. I have to support my own life. It costs money. There, I am forced to charge you an arm and a leg.

:facepalm:

[Rainne]

TL; DR.

Same excuses as any other profession.

I studied for a long time. It costs money. I have overhead. It costs money. I have to support my own life. It costs money. There, I am forced to charge you an arm and a leg.

:facepalm:

I studied / worked for a long time. I have experience. My time and skills are valuable. There, I'm forced to charge you an arm and a leg to hire me.

:facepalm:

[cheaper_than_cheap]

I complain a little when I have to pay the vet but I always compare it to the human health care system. You can get better care faster and cheaper from a vet. Our oldest dog needed an MRI and we were able to get it done within a few days. Try that with a human.

[nyik]

We have health care. Animals do not. It would be akin to human health care in the states.

I choose to accept that vet charges are going to be expensive. It is part of the responsibility of being a pet owner. However, this does not mean that I would blindly accept outrageous fees. I will do my due diligence, get second, third, fourth opinions before deciding a course of action or choosing my primary vet so that I can get a justified reasonable fee for the service that is required to keep my animals healthy and happy.

As with any profession, service, product; $ = value. As long as the consumer understands and appreciates the value, I don't think they would complain about the $.

Thanks for the read OP.

[r1lee]

The answer is; because you can.

If you were price gouging, clients would go elsewhere or seize to own pets in the future.

[ji2o0k]

I read the first part but the 2nd part seems too long (will read later)...

But good post, explains why the prices are so high. As another poster mentioned, I am willing to pay for vet care as long as the vet is competent and ensures that any issues my pet has, is addressed with care and is appropriate.

It is like any health service, say the dentist....they have staff to pay, overhead, equipment bills etc...just a cost of doing business.

If anyone thinks their vet cost is too much, shop around (as with any other service) and see if you can find someone cheaper that provides comparable care and help.

If you think paying a vet in general is too expensive, you probably shouldn't have a pet as the vet costs (within reason) is part of owning a pet...

[KingMiedus]

"Ear cleaning: $28.00.

What you’re paying for: The expertise of the technician. Cleaning an infected, inflamed ear takes skill and expertise. If the ear is not properly cleaned, then the medicine is not going to work as well. If you don’t know what you are doing, then you can damage the ear drum which is a horrible thing."

But you (the writer) just told me that despite that expertise the technician only gets paid $10-$12 an hour. You also said it took about ten minutes. $12 x (10/60) = $2. That's a pretty big markup to cover overhead costs.

[BDSL]

Guys, no one is forcing to you have a pet in the first place.
If you are a responsible pet owner, you are fully aware of ownership cost.
Stop blaming other people for your own irresponsibility.

Similarly, a lot of people are complaining about the gasoline price.
Since the invention of engine, the price of gas has been steadily increasing. It is no magic.
If you are a responsible vehicle owner, you should be fully aware of all of cost of vehicle ownership.
People are complaining about gas price left and right but yet I still see most people driving down the highway at +120km/hr.
And I still see people driving newer bulky and inefficient vehicles.

Just like unhealthy people, they blame their lack of health on work, kids, or whatever they can blame it on.

[amz155]

But what about the disparity in prices amongst vets? The other day I called three vet clinics to price out anal gland expression. One in Vaughan quoted me $43, another in Richmond Hill quoted $33, and a third in Vaughan quoted $25. Of course there's tax on that. So what gives with the price difference between them?How can one vet charge $43 and another just $25?

[nyik]

But what about the disparity in prices amongst vets? The other day I called three vet clinics to price out anal gland expression. One in Vaughan quoted me $43, another in Richmond Hill quoted $33, and a third in Vaughan quoted $25. Of course there's tax on that. So what gives with the price difference between them?How can one vet charge $43 and another just $25?

I check that off to location upkeep. Rent prices are bound to be different.

[amz155]

I check that off to location upkeep. Rent prices are bound to be different.

Guess so but they're in similar areas. The cheapest place was in the newest location/building so you'd think they'd charge the most?

[nyik]

Guess so but they're in similar areas. The cheapest place was in the newest location/building so you'd think they'd charge the most?

No idea.

I mean, other factors could be are they using the same suppliers, experience levels for the technicians and staff, etc.

Same thing could be applied to restaurants - why does restaurant A cost 3x as much as restaurant B even though they're in the same geographic area? Cuisine, type of dining, ambiance, service, etc...

[lilhorselover]

I don't care how trained you are, or how expensive overhead is, sometimes prices are just too much.

I took my dog in and was charged just over $200 for a vet to look at her. 20 minutes max. All she did was listen to her heart etc. and stick her finger up her crotch.

$10/minute when you aren't curing cancer is just too expensive.

[i6s1]

"Ear cleaning: $28.00.

What you’re paying for: The expertise of the technician. Cleaning an infected, inflamed ear takes skill and expertise. If the ear is not properly cleaned, then the medicine is not going to work as well. If you don’t know what you are doing, then you can damage the ear drum which is a horrible thing."

But you (the writer) just told me that despite that expertise the technician only gets paid $10-$12 an hour. You also said it took about ten minutes. $12 x (10/60) = $2. That's a pretty big markup to cover overhead costs.

Because not every second of a vet tech's day results in billable time. And the vet tech costs the company ei premiums, sick time, vacation time, cpp, benefits, etc. Plus there's also employees who don't bill any of their time, for example, the receptionists, etc. And overhead needs to be tacked onto every billable item. And the writer never said that the ear cleaning takes ten minutes, she said that's how long it took the vet tech to check the swabs and let the vet know that the dog has yeast and cocci. There's no mention of time for the thorough ear cleaning.

[BDSL]

I don't care how trained you are, or how expensive overhead is, sometimes prices are just too much.

I took my dog in and was charged just over $200 for a vet to look at her. 20 minutes max. All she did was listen to her heart etc. and stick her finger up her crotch.

$10/minute when you aren't curing cancer is just too expensive.

Once again, be responsible. Before you order something on the menu of a nice restaurant or have your vehicle serviced or buyig any service/product, you have to rights to know how much it is. Why don't you ask before proceeding? If the price isn't clear or you don't agree to it, walk away. You are not forced to pay for anything at any business. It is a free market. Feel another vet, restaurant, garage, etc that offers you the "valued" service/product.

[BDSL]

But what about the disparity in prices amongst vets? The other day I called three vet clinics to price out anal gland expression. One in Vaughan quoted me $43, another in Richmond Hill quoted $33, and a third in Vaughan quoted $25. Of course there's tax on that. So what gives with the price difference between them?How can one vet charge $43 and another just $25?

Just like anything out there......restaurant, food, clothings, vehicles, gasoline, brake job on a car, car parts, computers, internet provider, wireless provider, etc....

Welcome to free market.

[divx]

I don't care how trained you are, or how expensive overhead is, sometimes prices are just too much.

I took my dog in and was charged just over $200 for a vet to look at her. 20 minutes max. All she did was listen to her heart etc. and stick her finger up her crotch.

$10/minute when you aren't curing cancer is just too expensive.

so many incompetent people these days, even worse are the ones with obligations to care for others. Here is a pro tip, don't have kids you can't afford, and don't have pets you can't afford.

To all the losers who can't afford their vet bills, you aren't qualified to be a pet owner, have your pet put down or donated and never own a pet again.

[willdacanucker]

The way I see it, it is an animal. I may sound completely calloused and heartless, but ffs, it is just an animal. I L-O-V-E my dog. I will not hesitate for a minute to put his arse down if and when it comes down to it. Animals are NOT humans and just because some pansy arse people wish to give them human traits and think of them as humans, it does not command a supreme cost to keep them viable. Such is the law of nature. The second my animal commands a supreme cost, he is done. Been done twice before. Wont hesitate to do it again.

[divx]

The way I see it, it is an animal. I may sound completely calloused and heartless, but ffs, it is just an animal. I L-O-V-E my dog. I will not hesitate for a minute to put his arse down if and when it comes down to it. Animals are NOT humans and just because some pansy arse people wish to give them human traits and think of them as humans, it does not command a supreme cost to keep them viable. Such is the law of nature. The second my animal commands a supreme cost, he is done. Been done twice before. Wont hesitate to do it again.

:arrowu:Well done, you sir are a responsible and competent owner.

[amz155]

so many incompetent people these days, even worse are the ones with obligations to care for others. Here is a pro tip, don't have kids you can't afford, and don't have pets you can't afford.

To all the losers who can't afford their vet bills, you aren't qualified to be a pet owner, have your pet put down or donated and never own a pet again.

How is this discussion about not being able to afford vet bills? I can afford a home, car, pet, etc. that are more expensive than the ones I do own. But that doesn't mean it makes sense to go out and spend more money just because I can. I agree that someone who can't afford their pet should not have a pet but even if I can easily afford the cost of care for my pet doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to believe that some costs are unreasonable.

[nuch]

I think the problem with Vets are not so much the first consultation costs, but that it almost seems planned that one $200 visit leads to 4 more $200 visits for various follow ups and random tests.

Recently had a male cat with a urinary blockage. Was quoted $1100 to unblock/catheter, flush, medicate, IV, hospitalize, blood test, urine test the cat. I told the vet that was far too much to pay when there are over 100 healthy cats about to be put down that day at the shelter. Suddenly the list shortened, only a catheter, flush, urine test and meds were needed. GET THIS THE PRICE WENT TO $500.

Ends up he unblocked easily and the the price went down further to $470. Now I'm leaving the Vet feeling good about paying for $500 after considering putting my cat down.

Here's the kicker... same cat a year later after eating an EXPENSIVE Vet prescribed diet gets a blockage again (this time different stones, worse ones caused by his new ACID diet) Take him to a new Vet, get charged $600 for a similar procedure. Gets released and dies a week later.

HORRIBLE story. Overall I'm not complaining about the $1100 that it cost me in the year for my pet, as he was a really good cat and the family loved him a lot. But the fact that overall the diagnosis and warning that the cat would have reoccurences that could result in death were not made clear. That cat should not have to have gone through that twice in his short life, but it was as if the Vets deemed going in for routine catheters was an acceptable practice. Not just 1 Vet but 2.

I miss my cat a lot and have been debating on getting another. But overall I don't find Vet's to be trustworthy or reasonably priced at all. (although I am sure there are some out there that are)

Just my .02

[Manatus]

I think part of the problem is that here in Canada we have so little to compare it with. We have no grasp of how much medical care really costs, for the most part. We live in a great country where for the most part everyone can get decent medical care for any reason, even if they are injured because they got drunk and picked a fight with a tree, and never have to think about paying for it. If you have something that isn't covered, you expect that if you have a decent job your employer will have a plan to pay for it. Heck, people complain like crazy when they pretend to be sick to skip a college exam and the doctor wants $10 to write a sick note. Like the author says, human doctors get paid one heck of a lot more than animal doctors, we're just never exposed to that cost here. I've lived in countries where if you want to see a good family doctor, you pay up to $50-100 for the consultation, on the spot, just like a lawyer. I love animals and all, but I for one am pretty glad that comprehensive government paid healthcare does not extend to pets.

[teleguitar]

Guys, no one is forcing to you have a pet in the first place.
If you are a responsible pet owner, you are fully aware of ownership cost.
Stop blaming other people for your own irresponsibility.

Similarly, a lot of people are complaining about the gasoline price.
Since the invention of engine, the price of gas has been steadily increasing. It is no magic.
If you are a responsible vehicle owner, you should be fully aware of all of cost of vehicle ownership.
People are complaining about gas price left and right but yet I still see most people driving down the highway at +120km/hr.
And I still see people driving newer bulky and inefficient vehicles.

Just like unhealthy people, they blame their lack of health on work, kids, or whatever they can blame it on.So, another heartless jerk. FYI, the price of gas or oil has nothing to do with the invention of the engine of a car. So, you prove your ignorance and really should not be commenting on this topic.


I don't care how trained you are, or how expensive overhead is, sometimes prices are just too much.

I took my dog in and was charged just over $200 for a vet to look at her. 20 minutes max. All she did was listen to her heart etc. and stick her finger up her crotch.

$10/minute when you aren't curing cancer is just too expensive.Exactly. To just walk in the door, you will be charged anywhere from $70 and up. The OP is just making excuses and each Vet usually can cover overhead. Has anyone ever heard of a vet going broke? How many vets are in your town/city?


so many incompetent people these days, even worse are the ones with obligations to care for others. Here is a pro tip, don't have kids you can't afford, and don't have pets you can't afford.

To all the losers who can't afford their vet bills, you aren't qualified to be a pet owner, have your pet put down or donated and never own a pet again.What about the losers who make stupid comments like those being self-righteous and deciding they know the situation for everyone?

So, no one has a good answer or justification for the prices or fees of vets?

The other intangible that someone brought up is that they love their pets. Both the human and the animal benefit mutually from caring persons as long as there are rational judgments made and care given to the animal. Everyone wants to look after their pet but whether the person is rich or just making ends meet, there is no denying that fees at vet seem strangely high.

Imho, one of the main reasons vets are so expensive is because there is NO Government funding for them. Or no outside system to control costs.

However, this is not to say that the Government would do any better. For humans, the cost of healthcare is not transparent or provided to people. We don't see balance sheets or the accounts for the healthcare budget. We might be charged for some services but the overall cost is usually hidden by the Government until someone leaks or provides info.

But, with Vets, it still seems a very expensive service to visually examine a dog and then charge $70 to $200 (or more).

[Shaner]

so many incompetent people these days, even worse are the ones with obligations to care for others. Here is a pro tip, don't have kids you can't afford, and don't have pets you can't afford.

To all the losers who can't afford their vet bills, you aren't qualified to be a pet owner, have your pet put down or donated and never own a pet again.

Nobody is talking about not being able to afford vet bills, that's not what this thread is even about. But I'll play along with your stupid post. So if all vets colluded together and suddenly a simple rabies shot was $1,000, we should just accept that as part of owning a a pet and I should be happy to hand that money over?

By the way, you should have yourself put down for telling people to kill their pets if they can't afford them.

[amz155]

I think the OVC has a recommended fee schedule for what they advise vets to charge for various services. Has anyone seen it? I'm not sure if its put out by the OVC or another veterinary governing body in Ontario.

[BDSL]

So, another heartless jerk. FYI, the price of gas or oil has nothing to do with the invention of the engine of a car. So, you prove your ignorance and really should not be commenting on this topic.

Where were you for the last +30 years?
Gasoline price in 1990 was around 0.45-49cents/L. Gas price has been steadily increasing since then!!
I was able to get a 4L jug of oil for $10 at Canadian Tire back in 2002-2006. Now, the same 4L jug costs +$20.



Exactly. To just walk in the door, you will be charged anywhere from $70 and up. The OP is just making excuses and each Vet usually can cover overhead.

Obviously you don't run a business. There are overheads to pay.
Just like a car garage, there is no free diagnosis.
When you enter a club, there is cover charge.




So, no one has a good answer or justification for the prices or fees of vets?

The other intangible that someone brought up is that they love their pets. Both the human and the animal benefit mutually from caring persons as long as there are rational judgments made and care given to the animal. Everyone wants to look after their pet but whether the person is rich or just making ends meet, there is no denying that fees at vet seem strangely high.

Imho, one of the main reasons vets are so expensive is because there is NO Government funding for them. Or no outside system to control costs.

However, this is not to say that the Government would do any better. For humans, the cost of healthcare is not transparent or provided to people. We don't see balance sheets or the accounts for the healthcare budget. We might be charged for some services but the overall cost is usually hidden by the Government until someone leaks or provides info.

But, with Vets, it still seems a very expensive service to visually examine a dog and then charge $70 to $200 (or more).

You are welcome to shop around for the "best" vet fee out there.
Price is determined by demand and supply...just like anything out there.
The cost of human healthcare is extremely high relative to animal vet fee. We pay tax. A good chunk of it goes to the middle men (i.e. government, consultant, medical boards, etc). A good chunk of the money is spent on anyone but yourself.....service that you will not get if you are very healthy individual.

[Syne]

Oh this is gonna be good.


And I feel for you guys! It can be expensive to keep a pet healthy these days. I thought I would write this article to explain some of the facts about the financial side of veterinary medicine.

An owner of a sick pet doesn't want a veterinarian's sympathy. They want medical attention for their pet. It's sad how many times the author of this blog shows sympathy to the owner when the animal is the one that needs help. Maybe if this vet spent as much time helping those who need it, as they do writing blogs about how sympathetic they are to healthy owners, more animals would be saved.

A veterinary hospital is a business:
Doesn’t that sound heartless? But it’s true...a vet clinic is a business and needs to make money. Just like any other business we have bills to pay (and often these bills are huge). We pay rent, electricity and gas bills. And we pay large bills to buy and maintain equipment. An xray machine costs anywhere from $30,000 to $90,000. An ultrasound is going to cost about the same. And there is a lot of other equipment that needs to be purchased and maintained - dental equipment (most veterinarians have similar equipment to what a human dentist has), equipment to run laboratory tests, surgical instruments, and on and on.

Yes, it's a business. That doesn't sound heartless on its own - but what it does sound like is an excuse to refuse to treat. Medical equipment is certainly expensive but ya know what.. it's cheaper than it was 10 years ago and most of it didn't even exist 50 years ago. Don't try to leverage the cost of the latest and greatest technology against the well-being of individual animals. You can be a vet and treat without a state-of-the-art MRI machine. If you want to buy a hyperbolic chamber for sick labradoodles with rich owners, that's on you.. but don't put that in front of animals, most of whom just need regular treatment.


We also have salaries to pay. The staff at veterinary clinics are, in my opinion, usually severely underpaid for the quality of work that they do. A veterinary technician is an extremely skilled individual, able to place a catheter, draw blood, do a dental cleaning, counsel clients and multi-task animal care all day long. According to Payscale.com a Technician generally gets paid between $10 and $12 per hour.

It’s a crummy wage for someone with so many skills. Most technicians have gone to school for three years and carry some student debt. Compare this to a registered (human) nurse who gets paid between $20 to $36 dollars per hour. Why are techs paid so poorly? It's because we’d have to raise our prices in order to afford to pay them more.

Vet techs make an average of $17hr source (http://www.livingin-canada.com/salaries-for-veterinary-and-animal-health-technologists-and-technicians.html) so this vet is severely underpaying her technicians. That says more about her and her BMW than it does about the industry at large.


What about the veterinarian’s salary?
I have a confession to make. I drive a BMW. There you go. Is this why vet bills are so expensive? To pad the pockets of greedy veterinarians? Well, here’s the rest of the story. My husband is a successful real estate agent. His recent business successes and hard work have paid for my car. Prior to this, for the last 10 years I have driven a 2002 Honda Civic. Now, there’s nothing wrong with a Civic...it’s a great car. But my point is that a veterinarian’s salary is not one that allows you to live in luxury.

This is just confusing. So because she used to drive a Honda Civic, she contends that a vet's salary is not one that allows a life of luxury? I'm sensing a disconnect here. How do I know whether she could have afforded a BMW anyways? Maybe her husband has a gambling addiction and doesn't contribute to the household income at all. Too many variables to even bring this up.


Veterinarians on average have spent 7 years of their lives in college/university doing intensive study. According to the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, the average veterinarian graduates with a debt of a whopping $142,613! And, according to Payscale.com, a veterinarian generally makes between $45,000 and $106,000 depending on experience. Let’s compare this to a few other professions:

Family Physician: $75,000 - $204,000
Pharmacist: $50,000 - $130,000
Dentist: $61,000 - $201,000
Ophthalmologist: $93,000-$304,000
General Surgeon: $65,000 - $368,000


A doctor spends an average of 10 years in college/university when you consider residency and fellowship, and even more when you consider special fields like surgery. This probably explains why they make more, and still vets are doing much better than pharmacists, probably because a pharmacist only spends 5-6 years in school on average. I hardly see how this proves any point except vets get compensated roughly in line with how much training their profession requires.


What you’re paying for: The bulk of this charge is due to the cost of the medication. There is a markup on the cost, because (gasp) we are a business and yes, we do make some money off of medication.

I have a better idea. Why don't you (gasp) decide if you're a veterinarian providing a service, or (gasp) a medication reseller providing a product.. and stop trying to be both. Upcharging for medication is what is commonly referred to as "nickling and diming" which is what businesses do to pad their bottom line. Yes, it happens but don't expect for a minute that I'm just going to take it for granted.


What happens when clients can’t pay?
This is the part of my job I hate the most. I think every new veterinary graduate goes through a phase where you want to just pay for the bill for anyone who can't afford it so that no animal has to go without help. It truly sucks when an animal needs care but the owner is not able (or not willing) to pay for that care.

It's just a phase though, right? I love how you keep deflecting to the owner. Look, the bottom line is an animal is suffering and needs your help. At some point, the owner is secondary to this equation.


So, whose responsibility is it to make sure that that animal gets help?

Yours. The trained veterinarian. It is your responsibility.


Let’s take the above scenario. Let’s say the client comes in with a $50 bill in his pocket and says, “Doc, I love my dog so much and I’ll do anything for him but all I have is $50. I know you love animals and don’t want him to suffer so please help.” What am I to do?

TREAT THE ANIMAL FOR $50


One one hand, I could look at the situation like this:

The animal is suffering and possibly dying and you're pontificating? My.. where do you find the time?


“Well, what does this actually cost me? The office visit and tests really only cost me time. So, if I just charged for the medication, this dog could have some relief.” But, how is that fair to the next person who comes in with a dog with an ear infection?

How is it "fair" to the "next person"? Are you freaking kidding me? You want to talk about fair? How is it fair to the animal that their owners are broke? How is it fair that a sick animal is sitting in the lobby of a building designated for fixing sick animals, and is turned away? For a vet, you sure do have an interesting way of approaching the concept of 'fair'.

At this point, it sounds like you're just flat out in the wrong profession. If this is honestly what is crossing your mind when an animal is in need of your help, then veterinary medicine is not your calling. Perhaps used car sales or Avon, but certainly not caring for the well-being of others.


Susan comes in with her beloved chihuahua, Peppy. Susan could not afford to spay Peppy and although she tried hard to keep her away from other dogs, a big dog jumped the fence in her yard and bred Peppy. Now, she is pregnant, in labor, and struggling. Susan comes in crying. She and I both know that Peppy’s going to need a C-Section in order to survive. She has $100 to pay me today. And she promises to pay me $100 per month until the bill is paid off.

Susan is stupid but Peppy needs your help. It's really as simple as that. You can either see Peppy as an extension of Susan's stupidity, or you can see it as an autonomous creature in need of care. Once the animal lands on your doorstep that's really the only decision that matters, and ultimately it is the one that separates you from a medical professional and a businessperson.


So, whose responsibility is it to help the animals in a situation like this? Do I do the surgery, knowing that I will likely not get paid, simply because the dog needs it? (Keep in mind that a situation like this can happen several times per week in a veterinary hospital. Where do we draw the line?) Do I send the dog away and tell her to come back when she has the money?

Can you see why I hate this part of my job?

I'm more interested in what you actually decided to do. You hate that part of your job. OK, I get that.. but answer your own hypothetical questions. Nowhere in this article do you actually say, "Yeah I turned Peppy away and she died an excruciating death in labour". What happened to Peppy?

[Syne]

Continued..


What can be done?
There are options for people who are in a difficult situation like this. These options are not always what the client wants to hear, but we have to set some limits. The first thing I do is give the client the option of using Medicard or Care Credit. These are financing agencies that will give you a loan to help you pay a veterinary bill. I hear the cries now, “I don't want to pay interest!”, “I have bad credit...I won’t get approved.”

Nope, Care Credit pulled out of Canada a few years ago source (http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?168535-Care-Credit-Canada)

It's funny actually because Care Credit actually saved my cat's life back in 2008. It was our last option because like you, the vet hospital was ready to let our cat die an agonizing death rather than set us up on a payment plan. We paid the bill off in 3 months (with interest). Yet now that option isn't available.


Conclusion:
Oh, how I wish that I could do my job and not care about how much things cost! For those of you reading this, I would highly advise that you look into getting pet insurance to cover you in case you find yourself in a financial bind. Or, if you are an organized person, put some money aside each month in an account that for your pet.

I sympathize with you on how expensive veterinary bills are. It would be so wonderful, as a vet, to be able to practice and make decisions for animals based on what they need rather than what their owners can afford (or are willing to pay). I do all I can to work with my clients’ budgets and to do the best for their pets. But, sometimes we do face difficult situations!

Here's the cold truth. All over the world there are irresponsible pet owners and those who say they "love" their pets, but put a price tag on them. In this thread alone, we had someone say that they L-O-V-E their pet, but as soon as the bill gets too high, they'd just as soon go purchase a new one like it's a piece of merchandise, and divx applauds him like he's some sort of hero. By the way, divx, you've officially topped my list of biggest dbag on RFD. Grats, you've beat out a lot of very qualified candidates.

As vets, you might not take an official hippocratic oath that puts your license at risk if you refuse to treat.. but do you really need an oath? At the end of the day, you have to decide whether you're treating the owner or treating the patient. You have to decide whether you're running a practice or a business. It's not the animal's fault that it got a negligent owner. Pets don't get to pick their owners.

So in that moment, when a pet arrives at your doorstep in need of care, the only two factors that matter are you, the health care professional and the animal, helpless and at your mercy. Don't make excuses and don't put money ahead of your calling.

I'm not going to pretend that this is a black and white issue. It isn't. Whether an animal should be put down or treated has 100% to do with the prognosis, age of the animal and quality of life. Nothing else matters. So if an animal has a 99% prognosis for recovery but a $5,000 bill associated with it, then the vet should treat. Every time.

So while it's not always easy, the premise itself is simple. If you refuse to treat a high prognosis patient, whether you're an animal doctor or a human doctor, because it might not pay dividends in the end, then you are a plague on your profession.

[BDSL]

Syne, I would love to see you feed all the starving kids in 3rd world countries.
In fact, I would love to help you. Send me all your money and I will donate it to Children's Aid Society.

This is exactly what you were asking the OP to do.....save all the unfortunate animals who have irresponsible owners.
And at the vet's expense (her income, her life, her time, etc.)

[Stock R]

Post from another thread on RFD:

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/discount-pet-medicine-online-gta-1095431/2/#post14526452

Let's charge 5x the price on medication because we have overhead!!!

This is not about whether people can afford vet costs. It's about whether vets are justified in the prices they charge.

How many in this thread have seen the other threads about going to vets in the US and how big the price differences are?

Ie. My dog got neutered (w/ laser) in the US for $125. My local vet wanted $600.

Does my vet in the US not have overhead? equipment costs? tuition debt? technicians to pay? etc? What justifies the 300% price increase?

Vets charge what they do because they can! The well being of your loved ones (pets) are their mercy and they can and will charge you for it.

Some other industries that gouge you because they can:

Wedding industry - "Do you REALLY want to TRUST your big day to the person who has the lowest price? This is a once in a lifetime event, you do it once and do it right". End result = $$$

Automotive industry - "Do you REALLY want to TRUST the safety of your family with a brake job from just anyone?" End result = $$$.

[BDSL]

How many in this thread have seen the other threads about going to vets in the US and how big the price differences are?

Ie. My dog got neutered (w/ laser) in the US for $125. My local vet wanted $600.

Does my vet in the US not have overhead? equipment costs? tuition debt? technicians to pay? etc? What justifies the 300% price increase?

Vets charge what they do because they can! The well being of your loved ones (pets) are their mercy and they can and will charge you for it.


Vets charge what they do not because they can. They charge what they do because there are limited vets (supply) and many animals need to be looked at (demand).
Stop blaming the vets. Stop blaming the oil companies. Stop blaming the cheap chinese labour.

If there is no demand (with constant supply) for vets, the vet costs will decrease accordingly.
If there is no demand for gasoline (with constant supply), gas price will decrease accordingly.

[Offspring22]

Golden rule to be learned here (and on RFD in general):

YOU do not get paid near what you're worth.
EVERYONE ELSE is way over paid and greedy.

[divx]

How is this discussion about not being able to afford vet bills? I can afford a home, car, pet, etc. that are more expensive than the ones I do own. But that doesn't mean it makes sense to go out and spend more money just because I can. I agree that someone who can't afford their pet should not have a pet but even if I can easily afford the cost of care for my pet doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to believe that some costs are unreasonable.

fair enough


I think part of the problem is that here in Canada we have so little to compare it with. We have no grasp of how much medical care really costs, for the most part. We live in a great country where for the most part everyone can get decent medical care for any reason, even if they are injured because they got drunk and picked a fight with a tree, and never have to think about paying for it. If you have something that isn't covered, you expect that if you have a decent job your employer will have a plan to pay for it. Heck, people complain like crazy when they pretend to be sick to skip a college exam and the doctor wants $10 to write a sick note. Like the author says, human doctors get paid one heck of a lot more than animal doctors, we're just never exposed to that cost here. I've lived in countries where if you want to see a good family doctor, you pay up to $50-100 for the consultation, on the spot, just like a lawyer. I love animals and all, but I for one am pretty glad that comprehensive government paid healthcare does not extend to pets.

public healthcare for everyone and their pets? heh that will never happen.

[divx]

So, another heartless jerk. FYI, the price of gas or oil has nothing to do with the invention of the engine of a car. So, you prove your ignorance and really should not be commenting on this topic.

Exactly. To just walk in the door, you will be charged anywhere from $70 and up. The OP is just making excuses and each Vet usually can cover overhead. Has anyone ever heard of a vet going broke? How many vets are in your town/city?

What about the losers who make stupid comments like those being self-righteous and deciding they know the situation for everyone?

So, no one has a good answer or justification for the prices or fees of vets?

The other intangible that someone brought up is that they love their pets. Both the human and the animal benefit mutually from caring persons as long as there are rational judgments made and care given to the animal. Everyone wants to look after their pet but whether the person is rich or just making ends meet, there is no denying that fees at vet seem strangely high.

Imho, one of the main reasons vets are so expensive is because there is NO Government funding for them. Or no outside system to control costs.

However, this is not to say that the Government would do any better. For humans, the cost of healthcare is not transparent or provided to people. We don't see balance sheets or the accounts for the healthcare budget. We might be charged for some services but the overall cost is usually hidden by the Government until someone leaks or provides info.

But, with Vets, it still seems a very expensive service to visually examine a dog and then charge $70 to $200 (or more).

Supply and Demand? BTW did you know that's the same case with humans? If you weren't living in this great country where the government pays for healthcare, you will find that sick people die because they can't afford their healthcare. You have no idea how good we have it here and now you want the government to fund for pets? What a joke.

[divx]

Nobody is talking about not being able to afford vet bills, that's not what this thread is even about. But I'll play along with your stupid post. So if all vets colluded together and suddenly a simple rabies shot was $1,000, we should just accept that as part of owning a a pet and I should be happy to hand that money over?

By the way, you should have yourself put down for telling people to kill their pets if they can't afford them.

Yes, that is correct, if they all colluded it won't have mattered because of market forces, supply and demand, they can only charge as much as people are willing to pay for. Speaking about collusion, the telecom companies do that, Bell/Roger/Telus and they keep raising prices, people complains but they still end up using them, however if those guys were to charge rates people aren't willing to pay for then there will be alternatives.

Aren't you a jail guard? Tell me the worthless trash in the cells are worth the tax payer's money. Life is precious, and so is money, you want to know how less precious lives gets when everyone is broke and nobody can afford anything?

[BDSL]

Animals over humans!!! One day, humans will start eating from a bowl on the floor. Cats and dogs can sit on chairs and eat from tables.

[amz155]

Vets charge what they do not because they can. They charge what they do because there are limited vets (supply) and many animals need to be looked at (demand).
Stop blaming the vets. Stop blaming the oil companies. Stop blaming the cheap chinese labour.

If there is no demand (with constant supply) for vets, the vet costs will decrease accordingly.
If there is no demand for gasoline (with constant supply), gas price will decrease accordingly.

Limited supply of vets? Pfft I doubt it. Within 10 minute drive of my home there are about 10 vet offices, each staffed by numerous vets. I've never seen line ups out the door because the number of vets can't meet the demand for pet care.

[divx]

Continued..



Nope, Care Credit pulled out of Canada a few years ago source (http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?168535-Care-Credit-Canada)

It's funny actually because Care Credit actually saved my cat's life back in 2008. It was our last option because like you, the vet hospital was ready to let our cat die an agonizing death rather than set us up on a payment plan. We paid the bill off in 3 months (with interest). Yet now that option isn't available.



Here's the cold truth. All over the world there are irresponsible pet owners and those who say they "love" their pets, but put a price tag on them. In this thread alone, we had someone say that they L-O-V-E their pet, but as soon as the bill gets too high, they'd just as soon go purchase a new one like it's a piece of merchandise, and divx applauds him like he's some sort of hero. By the way, divx, you've officially topped my list of biggest dbag on RFD. Grats, you've beat out a lot of very qualified candidates.

As vets, you might not take an official hippocratic oath that puts your license at risk if you refuse to treat.. but do you really need an oath? At the end of the day, you have to decide whether you're treating the owner or treating the patient. You have to decide whether you're running a practice or a business. It's not the animal's fault that it got a negligent owner. Pets don't get to pick their owners.

So in that moment, when a pet arrives at your doorstep in need of care, the only two factors that matter are you, the health care professional and the animal, helpless and at your mercy. Don't make excuses and don't put money ahead of your calling.

I'm not going to pretend that this is a black and white issue. It isn't. Whether an animal should be put down or treated has 100% to do with the prognosis, age of the animal and quality of life. Nothing else matters. So if an animal has a 99% prognosis for recovery but a $5,000 bill associated with it, then the vet should treat. Every time.

So while it's not always easy, the premise itself is simple. If you refuse to treat a high prognosis patient, whether you're an animal doctor or a human doctor, because it might not pay dividends in the end, then you are a plague on your profession.

you are quite the dreamer aren't you? how long you been in school already? perhaps it's time for you to get out and see the real world. Here, I'll be nice and just tell you what the real world is like, here is a list of realities in the real world that you might not be familiar with:

1. this world is extremely materialistic, if you want to be someone, you need to have money and power, without it you are nobody. Emotions like love, hate, and others are secondary that's meaningless if you are broke.
2. live is precious, and so is money, without money life becomes extremely cheap and miserable.
3. billions of people live in poverty, millions starve to death, when it comes down to it I would try to save them over trying to save some pets.
4. you can put a price tag on a pet, actually you can even put a price tag on a human, did you know not that long ago black people were traded like a piece of merchandize? case in point, that massacre in afhan where dozens people died by some rouge solider, the states only paid $20k per live lost, that's simply because the afhan lives are worth less, if the victims was Americans, they would be hell to pay.

you think I'm a heartless dbag, but when you get your head out of the sand and see the true world for yourself, you will know I'm telling the truth, and boy do truth ever hurt.

[divx]

Syne, I would love to see you feed all the starving kids in 3rd world countries.
In fact, I would love to help you. Send me all your money and I will donate it to Children's Aid Society.

This is exactly what you were asking the OP to do.....save all the unfortunate animals who have irresponsible owners.
And at the vet's expense (her income, her life, her time, etc.)

Syne loves his pet, why not take the opportunity of being a vet and start a charity to cure all pets for free?

[BDSL]

Limited supply of vets? Pfft I doubt it. Within 10 minute drive of my home there are about 10 vet offices, each staffed by numerous vets. I've never seen line ups out the door because the number of vets can't meet the demand for pet care.

Well, there must be lots of pets around your neigborhood.
The vet hospitals have to compete with each other in terms of service / price.
They have to able to sustain themselves as a business.

Just because you don't see a line out the door, it doesn't mean the vet is sitting on his/her aras. He/she is probably occupied in the lab or office.

Just because you don't see a line outside a restaurant at 3pm, it doesn't mean the chef is doing nothing. He/she is preparing food in the kitchen.

[divx]

Post from another thread on RFD:

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/discount-pet-medicine-online-gta-1095431/2/#post14526452

Let's charge 5x the price on medication because we have overhead!!!

This is not about whether people can afford vet costs. It's about whether vets are justified in the prices they charge.

How many in this thread have seen the other threads about going to vets in the US and how big the price differences are?

Ie. My dog got neutered (w/ laser) in the US for $125. My local vet wanted $600.

Does my vet in the US not have overhead? equipment costs? tuition debt? technicians to pay? etc? What justifies the 300% price increase?

Vets charge what they do because they can! The well being of your loved ones (pets) are their mercy and they can and will charge you for it.

Some other industries that gouge you because they can:

Wedding industry - "Do you REALLY want to TRUST your big day to the person who has the lowest price? This is a once in a lifetime event, you do it once and do it right". End result = $$$

Automotive industry - "Do you REALLY want to TRUST the safety of your family with a brake job from just anyone?" End result = $$$.

Yeah basically another way of saying supply and demand, feel free to buy foreign goods/services if they are cheaper. As for wedding, I saw some stats saying most people divorce at least once in their life, so it's not a once in a lifetime event.

[jelena-c]

5 years ago my dog's teeth were cleaned for roughly $300
this included overnight stay

last year the same place wanted $600 for the same job

i called around, about 6 vets, and i couldn't find a single place that was going to clean his teeth for less than $600

did the inflation go up 50% in the last 5 years, or did the vets just decide to hike up their prices because they can?

hmmmmm

[BDSL]

5 years ago my dog's teeth were cleaned for roughly $300
this included overnight stay

last year the same place wanted $600 for the same job

i called around, about 6 vets, and i couldn't find a single place that was going to clean his teeth for less than $600

did the inflation go up 50% in the last 5 years, or did the vets just decide to hike up their prices because they can?

hmmmmm

Gasoline and oil price went up.
Food price went up.
Energy price went up.
Material and raw material price went up.
Our salaries went up (but not as much as other things).
The cost of living went up.

A tank of gas used to cost me $50 5 years ago.
An oil change used to cost me $15 (parts only) 5 years ago.

Now, a tank of gas costs me +$85. An oil change costs me $30.

Why would price of vet services go down as long as there is still demand for their service?
And these vets still have bills to pay. They don't work for free.
Why would the vets have to suffer so that the irresponsible owners / pets don't have to suffer?

[amz155]

Why would the vets have to suffer so that the irresponsible owners / pets don't have to suffer?

AGAIN, this has nothing to do with pet owners being irresponsible (or cheap).

[time space]

Veterinarians didn't always overcharge - back in the 60'/70's an average family could easily afford to take their dog to the vet.

They have definitely made a conscious decision to rip off pet owners in the past couple of decades.

[BDSL]

AGAIN, this has nothing to do with pet owners being irresponsible (or cheap).

It seems to me some of the owners fail to recognize the cost of pet ownership.
Instead of blaming himself/herself (i.e. I am an idiot for not understanding the cost of ownership), he/she blames the vets.

Pets are suffering because of their owners....not because of the "overpriced" vet services.

[BDSL]

Veterinarians didn't always overcharge - back in the 60'/70's an average family could easily afford to take their dog to the vet.

They have definitely made a conscious decision to rip off pet owners in the past couple of decades.

Back in the 60'/70', a single income family would have no problem supporting a family of 4-6, and still have higher savings.
Now, in 2012, most dual income family can only support a smaller family, have kids later, with longer mortgage amortizing period, and very little savings.
Time has changed!! The vets are not ripping off pet owners. Their prices is dictated by the market....just like oil, food, etc...

[amz155]

It seems to me some of the owners fail to recognize the cost of pet ownership.
Instead of blaming himself/herself (i.e. I am an idiot for not understanding the cost of ownership), he/she blames the vets.

Pets are suffering because of their owners....not because of the "overpriced" vet services.

I do agree that lots of people get a pet without doing their research as to how much the pet will cost over its lifetime. But even long time pet owners are affected by high charges and rate increases. I remember maybe 7 or 8 years ago a stool test used to cost $20. Now it costs about $60. I'll still pay for it, but it really makes me wonder how the price of a single diagnositc test has tripled in price in such a short time. I know that now they send the samples off to the lab to be tested instead of doing them in-house but still...a three-fold increase in price?

[BDSL]

I do agree that lots of people get a pet without doing their research as to how much the pet will cost over its lifetime. But even long time pet owners are affected by high charges and rate increases. I remember maybe 7 or 8 years ago a stool test used to cost $20. Now it costs about $60. I'll still pay for it, but it really makes me wonder how the price of a single diagnositc test has tripled in price in such a short time. I know that now they send the samples off to the lab to be tested instead of doing them in-house but still...a three-fold increase in price?

Just like most things.
When buying a car or a home (or even a relationship), sometimes we have to look at way way further ahead.
Gas will not stay at the same price.
Prime rate will not stay at historic low.
The boyfriend/girlfriend might not look as slimming and athletic 5-10 years from now......

Since 7-10 years:
House price has gone up quite a bit
Oil price has gone up quite a bit
Commodity prices have gone up quite a bit

We (whether you are a vet, trainer, engineer, salesman, yoga instructor) must foreseen and adjust accordingly to survive!!

[jelena-c]

Gasoline and oil price went up.
Food price went up.
Energy price went up.
Material and raw material price went up.
Our salaries went up (but not as much as other things).
The cost of living went up.

A tank of gas used to cost me $50 5 years ago.
An oil change used to cost me $15 (parts only) 5 years ago.

Now, a tank of gas costs me +$85. An oil change costs me $30.

Why would price of vet services go down as long as there is still demand for their service?
And these vets still have bills to pay. They don't work for free.
Why would the vets have to suffer so that the irresponsible owners / pets don't have to suffer?

where did i say that it shouldn't go up, i don't expect it to be the same cost as 5 years ago

but to double in price?!

[BDSL]

but to double in price?!

Why not?

[Offspring22]

I think everyone in this thread should be posting what they do for a living, and how much they think they personally deserve to be paid.

[time space]

I think everyone in this thread should be posting what they do for a living, and how much they think they personally deserve to be paid.

I generally have no problem with wages for most jobs (eg: police, city workers, doctors, etc) - there are only two that are total rip-offs in 2012:

Veterinarians and Pharmacists.

:mad:

[peachee]

WOW! I didn't realize my post would open such a can of worms! It's not like I haven't heard many of the arguments people are writing against the high cost of veterinary care so I don't take offence to any of it. Again, I am not a vet, I just re-posted a vet's blog post, I was a vet tech and experienced this day in and day out. Here is what I can say about some of the questions people have asked (there were so many so I'll speak to the ones that repeat).

Shopping around for the best price is always an option. Sure. Here is what the difference in costs can mean for you and your pet.

I worked in one clinic that was a one-vet enterprise. He charged very low prices for just about everything when compared to the market rate. He had LOTS of desperate clients willing to have him be their vet. Why could he charge so little? Because neither he nor his staff was the best; they were all qualified but NOT the best. I'd trust him with the ordinary spay/neuter or vaccines but nothing more. When anything became complicated, he did not have any other vet to consult with on a diagnosis. His clinic had the most basic, rudimentary diagnotic tools that were not maintained; his receptionist was also the person who assisted, was the technician, did the finance, cleaned, etc etc etc.; he took on many clients and had short appts (for many, the low $50 appt fee was ok for 15min of his time); he did agree to do many things for many people for little to no money. No one on staff did any continuing education (this is an industry that changes by the year). Thing is, if the outcome ended in death, no one blamed him. He at least TRIED. He was so NICE. He UNDERSTOOD that all the other vets were overcharging. The vet down the street would have charged much more for the "same" thing. The mentality was "the client is always right" when often, they weren't. This is hardly an isolated clinic. I know many people in the industry and this happens all over the place.

I worked in another clinic with 4 vets on staff. It was a small local vet that charged in the mid to high range for their services. They had a number of diagnostic tools available on site which reduced the cost of sending away for some diagnostics but this IS reflected in the cost of regular appointments. They also paid their technicians a much higher wage than the going rate, they were given sick days and vacation days, funds for continuing education and these technicians were used to their fullest capacity; if you needed a heartworm test, a technician would do this without a vet being involved and the savings would be transmitted to the clients. All this being said, they also knew their limitations and would refer to another, better equipped clinic if needed. People may see this as gouging given that another apt fee will be charged at the new clinic but I’d take a vet who knows their limitations over a vet that will try just about anything on their own! Lastly, they respected their staff. If a client was belligerent about costs or whatever, they would simply say “You’re welcome to seek out another clinic” and that would be the end. Boy was there a difference in the clients here and it was reflected in the mood of all the staff that worked here. Everyone felt valued and appreciated.

Lastly, in an emerg clinic, there were vets that were specialists in their domain; cardiologists, ophthalmologists, orthopedists, etc on top of all the general vets. *A specialist will go to school JUST AS LONG as a human doctor in the same domain*. There was every diagnostic tool imaginable. They were open 24/7. Costs here are high but when your pet gets sick, there is no denying you have the best of the best looking after them.

Example for a basic neuter:
Cheap vet $120 – what does this include? Sedation and surgically removing the testicles with instruments from cold sterile by one vet only. That’s it.
Expensive vet $600 – what does this include? Sedation, anesthetic, IV catheter line, pain meds, IV fluids, pre-surgical blood tests, instruments were sterilized by steam, a team of people working on your pet (even for basic surgeries, yes), clipping toenails, cleaning ears, making the hair that was shaved look nice and even, etc etc.
Is it all necessary? No of course not. But a good vet will give you the costs associated with BEST practice and outcome for your pet. They don’t judge you and make an assumption on your finances then give you an estimate because there ARE people willing to pay the high prices (lots in fact!). From there, you can ask why your vet suggested each item and you make the decision on whether or not you feel it is necessary.
So yes, vets costs vary but with good reason! You choose who you want to deal with.

I would be VERY curious to know how many people would be willing to pay for insurance for their pet if vet costs are so important to them. I got insurance as soon as I adopted my dog. When I first started, it was $46/month and that covered all illnesses/accidents (except hip dysplasia because he was over a year old) with a lifetime max of $20 000 with no deductible. This means, my policy does not cover general wellness – annual checkup, vaccines, heartworm meds, dental cleaning. That’s fine – these are costs I can plan for and expect to pay (though some insurance companies will even cover these but their premiums are higher). It’s the emergencies that arise from here and there that I needed covered. However, this rate almost doubled in two years and I had to step back and decide whether it was worth it. I decided to change my policy to a $250 deductible per condition (not per visit) which reduced my premium to almost it’s original rate. The company also changed their policies a bit and now pay for a portion of veterinary prescribed foods and there is no lifetime maximum. To me, the peace of mind of not having to make a decision about my dog’s life based on my finances is well worth the premium I pay. As much as I love my pets, I do know my own line at which I would stop. Everyone has to make this decision BEFORE the situation arises. My dog is insured but my other pets aren’t (because they can’t be). Sometimes difficult decisions need to be made but it is your responsibility to make that decision and that decision cannot be blamed on the vet’s inability to provide free/cheap services.

It is always interesting to me that people are quickly to say they are ok with wages this or that profession makes but those they are not ok with are those they have to pay for directly (and not in the form of taxes or for professionals they do not need the services of)…

I would say people on average spend more at Petsmart in a year that they do for their vet in a year (I’m taking a healthy pet). At the end of the day, pet ownership has a cost associated with it. You either are ok with that or you’re not, in which case, don’t get a pet in the first place.

Here is a link to the Ontario Veterinary Medical Association cost of ownership for a dog/cat in 2011 for those who are interested. (A previous poster mentioned OVC which is actually the Ontario Veterinary College in Guelph – simply a school where vets are educated. They are not a governing body for the industry. :) )
http://www.ovma.org/pdf/fifi_fido_finances11.pdf

[BDSL]

I generally have no problem with wages for most jobs (eg: police, city workers, doctors, etc) - there are only two that are total rip-offs in 2012:

Veterinarians and Pharmacists.

:mad:

Police, city workers, doctors, etc are paid by the government....sometimes it doesn't promote efficiency.
And we do pay for them even if we don't use their service. Its call tax....lots of it.
I haven't seen my family doctor for more than 2 years.
I haven't required any police service for more than +10 years ago. Last time I went to the police station, I only needed a criminal record check for my employer.
I still pay for their salary even when I have not used their services.
According to your definition, that is a true rip-off.

Veterinarians and pharmacists are users-pay. You use their service, you pay. Simple as that.

You are actually paying much more (higher on a rip-off scale) for doctor/police/city workers than veterinarians/pharmacists.

[jelena-c]

Why not?

well in that case why not triple it..........or quadruple it.........heck, why stop there

[jelena-c]

I think everyone in this thread should be posting what they do for a living, and how much they think they personally deserve to be paid.

sure

i went to school for 5 years, got my ba, and then took two extra courses outside of school
when i was finally able to get a job in my profession, i made 32k a year

just enough to pay off those 5 years of university after working for a full year, and not spending any money on anything (not like i could have with that pay)

so i think i chose a wrong profession, and should have been a vet instead ;)

[Stock R]

He charged very low prices for just about everything when compared to the market rate. Why could he charge so little? Because neither he nor his staff was the best; they were all qualified but NOT the best.


I never understood why people use this argument. Because expensive vets are always the best and cheap vets always suck right?



Example for a basic neuter:
Cheap vet $120 – what does this include? Sedation and surgically removing the testicles with instruments from cold sterile by one vet only. That’s it.
Expensive vet $600 – what does this include? Sedation, anesthetic, IV catheter line, pain meds, IV fluids, pre-surgical blood tests, instruments were sterilized by steam, a team of people working on your pet (even for basic surgeries, yes), clipping toenails, cleaning ears, making the hair that was shaved look nice and even, etc etc.


Luckily for me, my US vet included most of your list of the expensive vet stuff for only 25% of the cost. Oh but wait, he only charges so little cause he sucks and needs the business.



I would be VERY curious to know how many people would be willing to pay for insurance for their pet if vet costs are so important to them.

Those defending vet costs are saying that you should only have a pet if you're able to afford all possible associated costs. In that case, why should any owner need insurance? Don't play if you can't pay right?

FYI, $46 per month x 12 months per year x ~14 year lifespan = $7728. Unless you have the world's sickliest dog, you're probably better off putting the $ in a savings account.



At the end of the day, pet ownership has a cost associated with it. You either are ok with that or you’re not, in which case, don’t get a pet in the first place.


Everyone who gets a pet knows there's a price tag. That's not the issue. You're saying the options are 1) have a pet and get gouged for it or 2) not have a pet at all. How about 3) having a pet and not paying up the wahzoo?

[BDSL]

well in that case why not triple it..........or quadruple it.........heck, why stop there

If that is what it takes for the business to sustain itself and provided there is demand for the service, yes, the price will triple / quadruple.

[Stock R]

so i think i chose a wrong profession, and should have been a vet instead ;)

Apparently!

Personally I don't see what I make has to do with whether a vet is justified charging what he/she does. Thankfully I make what I do, otherwise I'd be hard pressed to pay for the vet bills.

You can't convince someone of something that their salary requires them to believe otherwise. OP use to work with a vet. 'Nough said. Try going to the photography forum and tell those wedding photogs they charge too much for pressing the shutter button for a few hours. They always freak out :)

[BDSL]

sure

i went to school for 5 years, got my ba, and then took two extra courses outside of school
when i was finally able to get a job in my profession, i made 32k a year

just enough to pay off those 5 years of university after working for a full year, and not spending any money on anything (not like i could have with that pay)

so i think i chose a wrong profession, and should have been a vet instead ;)


You could....and then you will realize the true cost of running a business in a competitive market.

[BDSL]

Thankfully I make what I do, otherwise I'd be hard pressed to pay for the vet bills.

I am sure you will find someone that believes your service / product is over-priced.




You can't convince someone of something that their salary requires them to believe otherwise. OP use to work with a vet. 'Nough said. Try going to the photography forum and tell those wedding photogs they charge too much for pressing the shutter button for a few hours. They always freak out :)

These photographers were at the wedding for a few hours BUT they were also spending much more hours filtering and editing these pictures.
Their equipment (i.e. computers, cameras, etc) cost money. Their experiences cost money. Their offices cost money (i.e. hydro, electricity, rent, etc).
Therefore, you are not just paying for the few hours. You are paying for the entire process.

Just like an auto garage where they charge $50-100 per hour working on your car, just because they actually worked on your car for 1 hour,
they also spend hours sourcing/negotiating with parts dealers, acquiring / replacing equipments and tools, paying rent and insurance, etc.
I know because I work on cars. Just because I spent 10 minutes doing an oil change in the garage, it still take time to buy the oil, the filter, gasket, etc.
It takes me time to find the right tool. It takes me time to dispose the oil after. It takes time to clean up the garage after. It takes time to clean myself after.

I assume you work. You work 8 hours a day in the office. But you actually spend more than that (i.e. showering, making yourself look presentable, driving in traffic, doing laundry at night, picking out your outfit for the next day, shopping for new work clothing if needed, etc).

If you can do the job cheaper yourself (or someone else), then have it done elsewhere. Price will adjust accordingly.
Vet price is as "high" as it is because market dictates it. You and other pet owners are willing to pay for it.

Just like our high gasoline price. We are willing to pay for it!!! We, on average, are not driving fuel efficient vehicles, love to drive fast on the highway, etc....

Now, stop whining.

[peachee]

Those defending vet costs are saying that you should only have a pet if you're able to afford all possible associated costs. In that case, why should any owner need insurance? Don't play if you can't pay right?


FYI, $46 per month x 12 months per year x ~14 year lifespan = $7728. Unless you have the world's sickliest dog, you're probably better off putting the $ in a savings account.



Aren't you arguing about the HIGH cost of pet ownership?? It is, in which case, $8000 doesn't actually go far. Obviously you are not informed but I am, having actually worked in this industry you so despise and are quick to critisize. If your dog is hit by a car you are looking at minimum $3000 walking into emerg. That does not include quality follow-up following this tragic accident. Simiarly priced are foreign object removal, torn acl, and a multitude of other things. My previous dog became epileptic at the young age of two. What did this require? Monthly medication at a cost of about $100 (this by the way was through a human pharmacy to reduce the cost), blood work quarterly, and a lot of vet visits throughout the year when things weren't going well. I wouldn't have been able to keep up with the costs associated had she not been insured when she was a puppy. I was very happy to have made that decision early on and it paid for itself many times over.

When I got my rescue, there was no question I would get him insured given my last dog. Within three weeks of getting him, he jumped off a foot bridge, got in a fight with a porcupine and ran across a busy street (after he chased a squirrel or something). The only damage he suffered was the porcupine fight but I didn't even have to think twice about bringing him to emerg to have him looked after. He's much more disciplined now so I haven't had any big scares but on Xmas eve last year, when all the local clinics were closing early, my dog exhibited signs that distressed me. I had no idea what was going on but again, I didn't think twice to bring him into emerg to get some diagnostics done. Given that it was the holidays, i didn't want to have to wait until my clinic re-opened and for whatever he have to progress.

So yeah, $50/month is nothing for me. I'm merely suggesting that insurance is a way to reduce the UNEXPECTED costs of pet ownership. What most people complain about are the REGULAR fees associated with their pet - annual checkups, vaccines, anti-parasitic meds, fecals, etc etc. If you cannot affod these without difficulty, I would seriously be reconsidering the purchase in general.



Because expensive vets are always the best and cheap vets always suck right?
Not always but in a lot of cases, yes. Professionals who are the best in ANY field will command a higher price. It’s true in ANY field wouldn’t you agree? So how come vets are vilified MUCH more than other professionals? I’m sure you’ll get a kick out of this tidbit – I currently work part-time as a photographer. I charge average market rates for a session (no less than $250 for a single session of two hours) and yet most people find this outrageous. Am I going to cater to every person who whines and complains? No because I know that my work speaks for itself and people are willing to pay for that quality. I’m not going to cave in to the masses who are more concerned with cost above all else.

[Syne]

Yes, vets are expensive. That's great.

Can we get back to the issue of refusal to treat sick pets, because I believe the OP had much more to say about this topic (and so did I).

peachee, your thoughts would be appreciated.

[Luciee]

I will do what it takes to make sure my dog gets treatment and I can pay the bill, but WTF..the vets Ive been to are brutal. Its not a case of overhead, cost of running the clinic ect, its a matter of pushing the envelope to see how much "I love" my pet and are willing to pay. The first place I ever went to recommended to pull my pups baby teeth out for $20 a shot. The explanation I recieved was that you never know when adult teeth will grow in wrong, or give problems, so if they pulled them, they could make sure they grow back properly. I asked if it was necessary, and she said no, but she highly recomended it as you just never know. As if!! Same place charged me twice for a stool sample. I questioned it, and they just told me to drop off another sample the following week, then we'd be even.
Three stitches in a paw was $800, but spay cost $350. How can a $450 difference be justified when in both cases requires stitches. hum?
Years ago my father built an addition to a vets office and he overheard them talking about a lady with a cat. They said the lady would be "good for $1000"
Sorry, I kinda lump used car salesmen, lawyers and vets all in the same....

[Beachdown]

I'm one of those from the other thread that takes my dogs to a vet in the U.S.

I can very well afford to bring them to the local vet, however I can't stomach the increased cost when it's unnecessary. The care my dogs received is of the same quality, just a little further to drive.

I asked my U.S. vet about the price difference and he said, and I quote, "I don't get it, and I've been treating thousands of Canadian pets for years. If I moved my practice north of the border, I would still charge the same. People who can't afford high veterinary costs just won't bring their pets in or put it off until it's too late. I make a good living and don't need to charge exorbitant fees. I became a vet because I love animals, not to be wealthy."

So like any other business here, they charge what they do because they can. Just like any other service provider.

[Katchemash]

Yes, vets are expensive. That's great.

Can we get back to the issue of refusal to treat sick pets, because I believe the OP had much more to say about this topic (and so did I).

peachee, your thoughts would be appreciated.

A doctor does not have to treat you if you have no health card and you have to pay to visit. If you can't pay, no doctor.

A vet does not have to treat your pet if you have no insurance and no money to pay. If you can't pay don't have a pet.

Its simple.

[nuch]

Not sure how true your statement is in Canada and the US doctors and hospitals now have a positive duty to provide emergency care. Many Case Laws support this.

Most vets will stick to this as well. However it doesn't mean they won't try and charge you $2000 to start, and work their way down to a profitable $1000 at the end of it all.

After all the person bringing in the pet for care loves them right? and money doesn't matter if you love your pet. WHich is essentially why Vets are so expensive, because they can play on this emotion.


A doctor does not have to treat you if you have no health card and you have to pay to visit. If you can't pay, no doctor.

A vet does not have to treat your pet if you have no insurance and no money to pay. If you can't pay don't have a pet.

Its simple.

[angryconsumer]

Vets are expensive because they are scammers who have no qualms about ripping people off, and because they are allowed to get away with it, and because consumers have little choice but to accept their scamming ways since no alternative exists.

Charges for "Office Visits" should be illegal. Having a vet blab out as much words as possible for 5-10 minutes and then rush you out the door with a $60-70 "Office Visit" charge, so that he/she can proceed to gouge as many others as possible in the same way before the day ends, is a crime, ethically if not legally.

All Vet fees should be regulated, and standardized at reasonable rates set by a neutral third party.

[Katchemash]

Not sure how true your statement is in Canada and the US doctors and hospitals now have a positive duty to provide emergency care.

Define Emergency Care. They can provide this, but can charge you and send you to court if you fail to pay what they ask.

[angryconsumer]

If you can't pay don't have a pet.

Its simple.

It's not so simple.

Someone will not necessarily realize that vets are scammers, nor the magnitude of their scamming, until after he/she has direct experience of being exorbitantly scammed by a vet. Vets do not publish the innumerable ways in which and extortionary amounts for which they will scam the consumer. They try to keep their charges as a dirty secret that gets hushed up as much as possible.

By the time a consumer realizes these things, he/she may well already have a pet(s).

[Katchemash]

It's not so simple.

Someone will not necessarily realize that vets are scammers, nor the magnitude of their scamming, until after he/she has direct experience of being exorbitantly scammed by a vet. Vets do not publish the innumerable ways in which and extortionary amounts for which they will scam the consumer. They try to keep their charges as a dirty secret that gets hushed up as much as possible.

By the time a consumer realizes these things, he/she may well already have a pet(s).

I fail to believe that a would be pet owner without doing proper information searching, hell I just googled vet costs and got information, would decide to get a pet and THEN complain about the price. If they do not do their research, the Vet CANNOT be blamed and only the PET OWNER IS TO BLAME.

[Syne]

A doctor does not have to treat you if you have no health card and you have to pay to visit. If you can't pay, no doctor.

Actually, that's not true. See a quote from this (http://www.cmaj.ca/content/166/4/465.full) study.

"On the basis of the legal principles and case law, it can be concluded that physicians and hospitals in Ontario owe a duty of care to individuals presenting in need of emergency treatment. There is a sufficient relationship of proximity between the individual and the physician and hospital to create a duty of care. It is foreseeable that failure to provide such treatment will be injurious to the individual. Ethical duties of the physician mandate the provision of emergency treatment, and statements of public policy point to the reliance placed by the community on the services offered by hospital emergency departments."

As well as their legal obligation, doctors also take a Hippocratic oath when they are sworn in to practice medicine, which forbids them to "do harm" either through force or negligence.


A vet does not have to treat your pet if you have no insurance and no money to pay. If you can't pay don't have a pet.

Its simple.

Perhaps not as simple as you'd like it to be. Yes, animals are not afforded legal or institutional protection like humans are, but their caretakers can, and I would argue, should provide a reasonable level of care in high prognosis patients when they are presented.

[iridium001]

You can't convince someone of something that their salary requires them to believe otherwise. OP use to work with a vet. 'Nough said. Try going to the photography forum and tell those wedding photogs they charge too much for pressing the shutter button for a few hours. They always freak out :)


Sweet geebus you actually believe that?!

You think all a wedding photographer does is press the shutter button for a few hours and insto presto you have magnificient photos to look at for years to come?? Wow, you could not be more wrong. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: How do I know? A close friend of mine does this for a living, and I've seen him go through a full day or two of shooting a wedding. And the days/weeks after, and not to mention, before all that begins, what he does before the wedding even starts.

I assisted him a few times when I was in between jobs (re: laid off due to company downsizing).

Here's the process in a nutshell:

- client consultation, FREE. This involved driving out to meet clients most of the time as he does not have a office studio but works out of his home and website. This is what a lot of photographers are doing these days to keep costs down. More on that later. Average time for consultation, 60 minutes.
- Set up the engagement shoot. Recon the area ahead of time, best spots for poses and photos, find out if there is a permit required. Best time of the week/day to shoot so the area is not too crowded. Make sure assistant has free time, agree on a fee.
- Day of engagement shoot. Shoot for 2-3 hours, pay the assistant $30-$40/hr. Edit the 200-300 photos from the shoot after. Time to edit all of these photos so that they're perfect? 6-8 hours.

- Receive list of wedding venues. Again, more scouting ahead of time to get a feel of the places so as to know what equipment to bring, what lights will be needed, where to shoot, visualize the wedding before it happens.
- Receive list of important shots, names of wedding party, family members. Make list of must have shots no matter how mundane or dull it may be. Re: family group shots.
- Hire assistant with proper gear, could be the same one from e-shoot, or not. Depending on availability. He called from a list of 6 potential assistants. This list changes year after year as availability changes.
- Meets with assistant to plan the shoot using the not-so-final day of wedding schedule. Schedules for weddings seldom stay finite, and it's up to the photographer to think on the fly to adapt to the changing schedule.

- A few days before wedding. Prep and pack all gear, charge batteries, cleans lens and equipment. Calibrate if neccessary by Canon/Nikon. Costs him $200-$300 if calibration needed. Camera and lens don't stay perfectly aligned together all of the time. If something fails he has to replace it at a moment's notice. During my time assisting him, he replaced a flash and a lens. Flash was $600, lens was $1400 purchased last minute from a local retailer. He usually buys online but with 3 days left, there was no time for shipping.

- Day of wedding. Wake up early at 6-7am. Drive the bride's house. Sometimes other weddings starts later.
- Without too much detail, it's a 12-14 hours day on your feet non-stop, while carrying 10-15lbs of gear most of the time. 2 camera bodies and 2 lens plus flash is roughly 10lbs dangling from your shoulder/neck.
- Sometimes I saw him sweat like no tomorrow, other times I saw him skip lunch, skipped drinking water until the banquet portion where things settle down a bit.
- 2 hours or 1 hour before banquet begins, there's also the setting up of off-camera lights that him and I would set up. We're talking $4000 worth of gear, flash heads, triggers, stands. One time, a careless guest with a point and shoot decided he would be mr. paparazi and knocked over one of his stands, cost to replace off-camera flash head? $1500. He had insurance though, but like car/home insurance, it goes up when its time to renewal. There is sometimes a deductible too.
- During banquet, we were lucky if we get more than half our provided meals eaten. The night is full of happenings and we have to capture it. Sometimes a course would come out, we would only eat 1 or 2 bites then shoot, come back and meal is gone cuz waiters took it away to make room for the next course.
- Finally, day ends. Spend 30 minutes packing up. Go home.

It does not end there. The next several weeks there is the task of going through 2000-3000 photos, he would do at least 200 photos a day, sometimes less depending on other factors such as family obligations, friends obligations, and other client obligations. He would edit them to perfection for this current client.

All of that? Guess how much it costs? Without giving it away, let's say $3000 - $300 to me for assisting. So he ends up pocketing $2700. Then at the end of the year, he also has to pay taxes. That $2700 just became $2400 because the Feds have gots to gets paid too! An average full time wedding photographer does 20-30 weddings a year, this is why you do not see photographers living in mansions, driving fancy cars. He makes just as much as you and I, sometimes less depending on his fees and other costs. There's also costs of maintaining a website, graphic design costs, hosting costs, misc. stationary, consumables and wear and tear on gear and vehicle, some also have advertising in newspapers, magazines, online, etc. Then he also has to pay his accountant! LoL!!

Is all of that worth $2400 after taxes and then less for all of the things I just mentioned in the last paragraph??

Whew I'm glad I don't do that - I just go to my office and do my job for 8 hours a day. I more than sympathize with vets and other jobs where it's a business. I think it has to do with lack of regulations in these fields that determines the value of their work. They are left to charge whatever they want, without anyone else having a say in it. Some fields have governing bodies to which to control the consumers' fees. (Dental Hygienists, Event Planners, Doctors, etc.) In any case, there are so many hidden things going behind the scenes we do not know about. I was glad I was given the chance to see what my friend does and I appreciate it people like him a lot more now knowing what they have to go through.

[tim-x]

I'm amazed at the stupidity in this thread. To the people defending vets:

Obviously not all vets are good honest people. My vet friend left a practice because of their questionable (but not necessarily dishonest) medical advice/practices.

To the people complaining about vet prices:

I'd seriously like to see any of you enter this profession. You do an honors undergrad, take the MCATS, and apply for another 4 years of vet school which is more competitive than most med schools. And on top of that you largely make much less than medical doctors despite your profession being harder to get into. Vets deal with crappy people who skip out on bills ALL THE TIME, have people complain and whine every day and watch peiple mistreat their animals, and have to go to court and testify for animal abuse regularly. You can all pretend like you "could" have become a vet but 99.9% of you would never get accepted. If you can't handle vet bills then don't own a pet. It's as simple as that.

[peachee]

Yes, vets are expensive. That's great.

Can we get back to the issue of refusal to treat sick pets, because I believe the OP had much more to say about this topic (and so did I).

peachee, your thoughts would be appreciated.

Pretty simple.

In an emergency situation (an ACTUAL life or death emergency), a vet is required to treat if someone comes running through the front doors.

However, when we're talking "refusal to treat sick pets", rarely is the person coming through the door a vet themselves (in fact, I've never experienced this). Therefore, there are not in a place to determine whether or not their pet is truly in dire straights and need of emergency treatment. In my experience, "sick" has meant any number of things from barely anything ie. easily treatable and frankly, not that expensive (diarrhea, ear mites, vomiting... etc) to more pressing issues (broken bones, tumour, bite wound, etc) that will cost more to treat. In any given day, the number of patients seen in the second group can be quite high. First, from the standpoint of being equitable, why should a vet treat one pet for free because the owner can't afford to pay for it's care while another person who is fully wiling and capable to pay for treatment not getting it for free? Just because they can? That's a bit unfair no? Second, time is money. If every person who demanded their ailing pet to be treated for free, the business would simply fail. Why this is so difficult to understand is beyond me.

As noted in the blog post, if you need medication, can't afford it, it's not covered by provinical health care and you have no personal insurance, would you even DREAM of asking the pharmacist if you can get it for free???

An acquaintance of mine was hit by a car in December and broke his leg. He required a variety of medical devices (walker with wheels, a chair to help his shower, a toilet seat cover to help him go to the bathroom, etc etc) and medications that were not covered. He was not able to pay for them so he didn't get anything but a pair of crutches (that he paid around $40 for). Did he cry and beg and scream and put up a fit, blaming the entire medical profession for their negligence in treating him? No.

One more hypothetical question to ponder... There are also those clients who fail to see that the end has come for their pet and beg for further treatment. Would people be ok with a vet refusing treatment in this case? How is this any different? The client is still begging, crying, screaming (the same thing they do when they can't pay) but it's ok for the vet to not treat in this case because it's in the best interest of the animal right? Well, in many cases, when an owner simply cannot afford medical treatment, the same can be said that, in the best interest of the animal, it should be given up for adoption or euthanized.

[Syne]

Pretty simple.

In an emergency situation (an ACTUAL life or death emergency), a vet is required to treat if someone comes running through the front doors.

However, when we're talking "refusal to treat sick pets", rarely is the person coming through the door a vet themselves (in fact, I've never experienced this). Therefore, there are not in a place to determine whether or not their pet is truly in dire straights and need of emergency treatment. In my experience, "sick" has meant any number of things from barely anything ie. easily treatable and frankly, not that expensive (diarrhea, ear mites, vomiting... etc) to more pressing issues (broken bones, tumour, bite wound, etc) that will cost more to treat. In any given day, the number of patients seen in the second group can be quite high. First, from the standpoint of being equitable, why should a vet treat one pet for free because the owner can't afford to pay for it's care while another person who is fully wiling and capable to pay for treatment not getting it for free? Just because they can? That's a bit unfair no? Second, time is money. If every person who demanded their ailing pet to be treated for free, the business would simply fail. Why this is so difficult to understand is beyond me.

I was talking about the vets who would say, "your pet is in need of emergency treatment" then stare at you with their hand out. This does happen. Everyone can agree that your pet is in dire straights [sic] and the vet can still refuse to treat. They can sit around reading a book while your pet slowly dies in their lobby if they feel like it. A life-threatening symptom, such as dehydration can be treated and save an animal's life, but not if the vet refuses to treat. So the pet dies of an easily treated symptom, in this case subcutaneous 'water ball' injections, then time is perhaps money, but time in this case is also a precious life-saving resource. When the two are pitted against each other, it's ultimately the vet who has to decide which wins.

So I understand it perfectly fine, it's just irrelevant with regard to the health of any given animal at any point in time, and it's a false dilemma. You talk about equitable treatment, as if it would be unfair to save the life of one pet, when you can't save the lives of all pets. This is a logical fallacy. You will never be able to treat all pets, only the pets that serendipitously come through the door.

Also, an error you consistently make is to equate the animal with the owner. You compare owners of sick pets and ask 'why is it fair to the owner who can pay?' Are you kidding me!? I've already addressed this. It's not the owner who is sick, it's the pet! If you spend time concerning yourself with the equitable distribution of your resources to owners, then you shouldn't be a vet! The animal doesn't get to pick its owner. It has no idea how much money its owner has in its chequing account. Why this is so difficult for some animal doctors to understand is beyond me.


As noted in the blog post, if you need medication, can't afford it, it's not covered by provinical health care and you have no personal insurance, would you even DREAM of asking the pharmacist if you can get it for free???

If I was low-income then I could apply to the Ontario Trillium drug program (http://benefitsontario.com/ontario-trillium-drug-program/) to have it paid for by the province. I wouldn't have to ask a pharmacist.


An acquaintance of mine was hit by a car in December and broke his leg. He required a variety of medical devices (walker with wheels, a chair to help his shower, a toilet seat cover to help him go to the bathroom, etc etc) and medications that were not covered. He was not able to pay for them so he didn't get anything but a pair of crutches (that he paid around $40 for). Did he cry and beg and scream and put up a fit, blaming the entire medical profession for their negligence in treating him? No.

He should have explored the resources available to him. I would say that resources are available to pets, but as I already mentioned, Care Credit is no longer offered in Canada. So unless you can come up with an alternative, this is a false comparison. There are alternate means for people, but not animals.


One more hypothetical question to ponder... There are also those clients who fail to see that the end has come for their pet and beg for further treatment. Would people be ok with a vet refusing treatment in this case? How is this any different? The client is still begging, crying, screaming (the same thing they do when they can't pay) but it's ok for the vet to not treat in this case because it's in the best interest of the animal right? Well, in many cases, when an owner simply cannot afford medical treatment, the same can be said that, in the best interest of the animal, it should be given up for adoption or euthanized.

I think what you're consistently failing to get, is that it's not about the client. Over and over you try to make it about what's fair to the healthy human, and you ignore the hypothetical sick animal. What ever possessed a person like you to get into veterinary medicine?

[BDSL]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Can someone give me money (lots of it) so I can donate the money to unfortunate children in 3rd world countries?

[Syne]

Well we have vets and their assistants sitting here trying to justify 'refusal to treat' as a policy for pet owners who don't have enough money. I will not stand idly by and watch so-called health care professionals belittle their profession and marginalize the lives of animals in an effort to line their pockets.


In an emergency situation (an ACTUAL life or death emergency), a vet is required to treat if someone comes running through the front doors.

Says who!? Where does it say the vet is required to treat in an actual emergency? Show me where that's written down and I'll gladly print it out and save it. Most vets, when they find out you don't have enough money start pushing for euthanasia because it's cheap and they think most clients can at least afford to PTS. Plus, whatever emergency no-questions-asked treatment they do perform, they will be sure to invoice to you later.

[TheRequiem]

The regulations of most professions consider it misconduct to behave unprofessionally, putting your license at risk. This is also true of Veterinarians. I would think there's a case to be made that not performing a medically necessary emergency procedure when you are able to would be unprofessional.

Much like with uninsured humans, there are cases where you just do what needs to be done because it's the right thing, and you worry about costs and reimbursement later.

Now, I am NOT disagreeing with the OP here about people who cannot afford routine services -- that's a separate question.

edit: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_901093_e.htm#BK6

17. (1) For the purposes of the Act, professional misconduct includes the following:
1. An act or omission inconsistent with the Act or this Regulation.
...
44. An act or omission relevant to the practice of veterinary medicine that, having regard to the circumstances, would be regarded by members as disgraceful, dishonourable or unprofessional.
45. Conduct unbecoming a veterinarian. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 1093, s.17 (1); O. Reg. 513/94, s. 1; O. Reg. 510/95, s. 4; O. Reg. 431/00, s. 5 (1, 2); O. Reg. 24/02, s. 1 (1-4); O. Reg. 161/04, s. 11 (1-5); O. Reg. 398/07, s. 10.


While I don't know for a fact those would or would not apply, I could certainly imagine a lawyer making a case.

[hipfan1]

Just take your animals to the states and there won't be an issue of cost. I'd love for the OP to explain the vast price difference from US vet to Canadian. There are guidelines (in Ontario at least) for vet fees, but I'd love to know why there are so high, compared to the states. Why does a vet in Ottawa charge about $65 for a visit, as opposed to my vet in NY that charges $32? Or why is dental work $600-700 here, while I paid $128 in NY? It's massive discrepancies like this that make people questions the cost of pet health care. I understand that prices in Canada will be higher, but this seems a bit much.

[Stock R]

Sweet geebus you actually believe that?!

Nopes. I don't believe it. I just wanted to point out that people freak out when their salary is challenged and that it happens in the photo forum all the time. You just made my point :razz:

[Lexcyn]

This is what bugs me the most. To get a cat/dog neutered/spayed it's almost $600 here in town. If I go to Toronto, it's way less at around $200. If I go to the SPCA spay/neuter clinic it's like $75.

Another example. Our dog needs an ear medication because of a re-occurring ear infection. From anywhere in town, it will be $175 for the bottle. If I get it from 1800PetMeds its only $49 + shipping/HST/duty.

W T F.

[divx]

I was talking about the vets who would say, "your pet is in need of emergency treatment" then stare at you with their hand out. This does happen. Everyone can agree that your pet is in dire straights [sic] and the vet can still refuse to treat. They can sit around reading a book while your pet slowly dies in their lobby if they feel like it. A life-threatening symptom, such as dehydration can be treated and save an animal's life, but not if the vet refuses to treat. So the pet dies of an easily treated symptom, in this case subcutaneous 'water ball' injections, then time is perhaps money, but time in this case is also a precious life-saving resource. When the two are pitted against each other, it's ultimately the vet who has to decide which wins.

So I understand it perfectly fine, it's just irrelevant with regard to the health of any given animal at any point in time, and it's a false dilemma. You talk about equitable treatment, as if it would be unfair to save the life of one pet, when you can't save the lives of all pets. This is a logical fallacy. You will never be able to treat all pets, only the pets that serendipitously come through the door.

Also, an error you consistently make is to equate the animal with the owner. You compare owners of sick pets and ask 'why is it fair to the owner who can pay?' Are you kidding me!? I've already addressed this. It's not the owner who is sick, it's the pet! If you spend time concerning yourself with the equitable distribution of your resources to owners, then you shouldn't be a vet! The animal doesn't get to pick its owner. It has no idea how much money its owner has in its chequing account. Why this is so difficult for some animal doctors to understand is beyond me.



If I was low-income then I could apply to the Ontario Trillium drug program (http://benefitsontario.com/ontario-trillium-drug-program/) to have it paid for by the province. I wouldn't have to ask a pharmacist.



He should have explored the resources available to him. I would say that resources are available to pets, but as I already mentioned, Care Credit is no longer offered in Canada. So unless you can come up with an alternative, this is a false comparison. There are alternate means for people, but not animals.



I think what you're consistently failing to get, is that it's not about the client. Over and over you try to make it about what's fair to the healthy human, and you ignore the hypothetical sick animal. What ever possessed a person like you to get into veterinary medicine?

lulwut, some people keep pigs as pet so you gonna let them call a vet as emergency? did you know I also eat pigs?

[krash322]

Here's my 2 cents. I adopted two poodle mix puppies last year. Within a week or so, I had to bring them into a clinic because they had some soft stool issues. Shortly after that, I had to bring them in for their second set of shots. During both of these visits, they had to get their exams. Being that it's $70 for an exam, that's $280. A month later, I had to bring them in for their last set of shots. When the vet came into the room, I informed her politely that I didn't want my puppies to be examined again, because they've already been examined twice within two months. The vet starts on about how that is illegal and all this crap. I stood my ground and said three times within two months is too much, I wasn't about to drop another $140. I mean, I wasn't asking for something for free, I am simply refusing a service that I don't want. This exchange goes on for a bit and finally, the vet made me sign a waiver, which I was willing to do. In the end, the puppies were fine.

To me, the biggest scam is the examination fee. If you can avoid this somehow like I did, things would be a lot better off.

[hipfan1]

Here's my 2 cents. I adopted two poodle mix puppies last year. Within a week or so, I had to bring them into a clinic because they had some soft stool issues. Shortly after that, I had to bring them in for their second set of shots. During both of these visits, they had to get their exams. Being that it's $70 for an exam, that's $280. A month later, I had to bring them in for their last set of shots. When the vet came into the room, I informed her politely that I didn't want my puppies to be examined again, because they've already been examined twice within two months. The vet starts on about how that is illegal and all this crap. I stood my ground and said three times within two months is too much, I wasn't about to drop another $140. I mean, I wasn't asking for something for free, I am simply refusing a service that I don't want. This exchange goes on for a bit and finally, the vet made me sign a waiver, which I was willing to do. In the end, the puppies were fine.

To me, the biggest scam is the examination fee. If you can avoid this somehow like I did, things would be a lot better off.

My vet (in NY) doesn't charge an exam fee for booster shots, just a fee for the technician who administers the shot, which is about $15. Yet another reason I love taking my animals to the states for their vet care. I got so sick of paying $70 every time I went to the vet for them to simply check their heart, ears and eyes, which takes 5 minutes, max. It's way too excessive.

[hi-tech]

It's same with any profession. Why are people complaining about costs? Shop around.

Why do lawyers charge $200 an hour? Why does a dentist charge me $140 to clean my teeth when a dental hygienist making $25 an hour does it?

People who have done 1 year diploma's from Sheridan college or Seneca or whatever else don't understand how expensive school can be, particularly post-graduate school.

Again, if you have an issue with what vet's are charging, call around to different vets and get price quotes, if you still deem their services too expensive then head south of the border and see what they can do for you.

[divx]

It's same with any profession. Why are people complaining about costs? Shop around.

Why do lawyers charge $200 an hour? Why does a dentist charge me $140 to clean my teeth when a dental hygienist making $25 an hour does it?

People who have done 1 year diploma's from Sheridan college or Seneca or whatever else don't understand how expensive school can be, particularly post-graduate school.

Again, if you have an issue with what vet's are charging, call around to different vets and get price quotes, if you still deem their services too expensive then head south of the border and see what they can do for you.

haha so true, people will charge as much as they can get, so if they can charge $140 and get someone to pay for it, then they will.

[krash322]

It's same with any profession. Why are people complaining about costs? Shop around.

Why do lawyers charge $200 an hour? Why does a dentist charge me $140 to clean my teeth when a dental hygienist making $25 an hour does it?

People who have done 1 year diploma's from Sheridan college or Seneca or whatever else don't understand how expensive school can be, particularly post-graduate school.

Again, if you have an issue with what vet's are charging, call around to different vets and get price quotes, if you still deem their services too expensive then head south of the border and see what they can do for you.

It's standard practice in Ontario to perform exams, cuz the OVMA says so, so it's not that easy to just find a clinic that will bypass the exam. You might be able to find it cheaper, like $50 instead of $70. But stupid self-serving policies dictate vets must perform an exam, but I was not looking for one.

[JustinCredible]

If I was low-income then I could apply to the Ontario Trillium drug program (http://benefitsontario.com/ontario-trillium-drug-program/) to have it paid for by the province. I wouldn't have to ask a pharmacist.

Being low-income doesn't mean automatically Trillium will be a benefit, Your costs need to be greater than 4% of your household's annual income. Plus you have the dispensing fee and deductible to take care off. Saying it will be 'paid for by the province' is not accurate. Also pharmacist do from time to time make deals to get paid on the TDP backend from reimbursements.

Just saying.

[yahi]

TL; DR.

Same excuses as any other profession.

I studied for a long time. It costs money. I have overhead. It costs money. I have to support my own life. It costs money. There, I am forced to charge you an arm and a leg.

:facepalm:

I found vets are worse than that. My old vet would jack up the price when the fear / concern / tears showed which led to them asking (and would not budge) $3500 for dental cleaning on our cat. Went to another vet and got it done for $500 taxes in.