Why JetBlue won't fly to Canada - ridiculous taxes!

[Phoenix3434]

It's amazing how much we get robbed. Every turn the government puts its sleazy hands in our pockets. The airport costs are over 50% higher than those of comparable airports. This is crazy. B/c of this, us consumers suffer. This kind of stealing and protectionism must stop. And on top of that, the workers are threatening to strike.

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/the-real-air-rage-is-airfares-20120405.html


It’s been five years since U.S. low-cost airline JetBlue Airways applied for, and received, a licence to fly to Canadian cities like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. And yet there has yet to be a single JetBlue flight venturing north of the border. Why? “It’s hard to stimulate travel with low fares while operating in a high-cost environment,” says airline spokesperson Allison Steinberg.


JetBlue isn’t the only airline that says flying in Canada is too expensive. Over the years, a host of foreign airlines, from Hong Kong’s Cathay Pacific and Israel’s El Al to Virgin America and Frontier Airlines, have either shelved expansion plans or stopped flying to Canada altogether because of a panoply of aviation taxes and fees in this country


For instance, last year it cost US$20,885 to land an Airbus A330 at Toronto’s Pearson International Airport, among the world’s most expensive airports, according to data provided by the International Air Transport Association (IATA). By contrast, it cost just US$12,367 to land the same plane at Tokyo’s Narita International Airport and US$13,114 at Frankfurt International Airport.


It’s a reality Canada’s domestic airlines and their passengers know all too well. Last week, hundreds of Canadians faced the prospect of a major strike at Air Canada, potentially throwing their March break travel plans into chaos. Big and bloated, Air Canada has been struggling to convince skeptical employees to make labour concessions in a bid to make the airline more cost-competitive with foreign rivals.


The impact of our pricey skies is most easily seen south of the border. As many as five million Canadians (15 per cent of the population) drive to U.S. airports to take advantage of lower airfares in cities like Buffalo, N.Y., Burlington, Vt., or Bellingham, Wash. A recent survey by the Hotel Association of Canada found that 30 per cent of Canadians say they plan to make the trek to the U.S. to fly next year. “That’s embarrassing,” says George Petsikas, the president of the National Airlines Council of Canada, which represents Air Canada, WestJet, Transat and regional carrier Jazz. “You would think we were a Third World country when it comes to aviation

[Mark77]

There's quite a difference in the overall quality of infrastructure at Canadian versus US airports, and it could be said that the US airports are significantly behind the curve in terms of being sustainable. LAX, MIA, SFO T2, etc., terminals are pretty much complete dumps compared to even the worst quality facilities in Canada (ie: Winnipeg until quite recently).

However, some of the infrastructure spending in Canada is completely out of control.

[rb]

I fly from Buffalo , haven't used Pearson in years , don't mind paying reasonable taxes but our taxes are Sky high ! (pun)


I like Southwest and JetBlue

[KDSet]

I don't know, sounds like its airlines & passengers bearing the costs for running/building/maintaining the airports as opposed to by everyone else's taxes.

On the other hand, 5 million passengers paying, say, sales tax on their fares in Canada should cover a good chunk of the airport costs at least.

[sandikosh]

How many airports are in Canada compared to the US?

[neutral]

Meh, we aren't missing anything.

[peano]

No suprise.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/canadians-flocking-us-airports-cheap-fares-1155943/#post14460953

[CDNPatriot]

I don't, Buffalo airport is a short drive away and I always use Jet Blue there.


It's amazing how much we get robbed. Every turn the government puts its sleazy hands in our pockets. The airport costs are over 50% higher than those of comparable airports. This is crazy. B/c of this, us consumers suffer. This kind of stealing and protectionism must stop. And on top of that, the workers are threatening to strike.

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/the-real-air-rage-is-airfares-20120405.html

[Hot Ice]

I don't, Buffalo airport is a short drive away and I always use Jet Blue there.

I guess if you are a CDNPatriot and you fly from Buffalo, then it's a sad state of affair for Canada.

[DearSummer]

I don't, Buffalo airport is a short drive away and I always use Jet Blue there.

Oh so you only believe in buying Canadian only when it's convenient. I get it. :lol:

[Longobongo]

I fly from Buffalo , haven't used Pearson in years , don't mind paying reasonable taxes but our taxes are Sky high ! (pun)


I like Southwest and JetBlue

I would like to do the same but dont want the trouble of driving there, is there a bus service?

[eldiablo]

I would like to do the same but dont want the trouble of driving there, is there a bus service?

http://www.coachcanada.com/coachcanada/index.asp?_lp.lang=en

[iridium001]

Not surprised.

Last summer I flew down to Fort Lauderdale, was impressed at how fast and efficient their terminals was layed out. Infrastructure is old yes, but I didn't have to walk a klick from plane to terminal like I always do at Pearson. :facepalm: Improving infrastructure doesn't mean anything if costs goes up, at the end of the day, the average person would rather pay cheap to fly out of a dilapidated airport rather than a fancy airport with high prices.

[BoogieWilliams]

Not surprised.

Last summer I flew down to Fort Lauderdale, was impressed at how fast and efficient their terminals was layed out. Infrastructure is old yes, but I didn't have to walk a klick from plane to terminal like I always do at Pearson. :facepalm: Improving infrastructure doesn't mean anything if costs goes up, at the end of the day, the average person would rather pay cheap to fly out of a dilapidated airport rather than a fancy airport with high prices.

Exactly, you don't need top of the line infrastructure as long as its safe. But considering an airport is the gate to your city, Pearson certainly makes a good first impression when foreigners come here, but who needs all of that when the consumer suffers in the end.

[iridium001]

Exactly, you don't need top of the line infrastructure as long as its safe. But considering an airport is the gate to your city, Pearson certainly makes a good first impression when foreigners come here, but who needs all of that when the consumer suffers in the end.

Goes well with the Toronto mentality about outward appearances, but when it comes to the well being of its own citizens, well, doesn't look like they're top priority?

[CDNPatriot]

I would explain but I'm still waiting a response for a number of posts I directed at you (ie those stupid videos you post and other outrageous comments you've made) where I provided surmountable evidence of which you ignored. So how many jobs are you going to export out of Canada this week? Coming from someone that is an importer.


Oh so you only believe in buying Canadian only when it's convenient. I get it. :lol:

[CDNPatriot]

I've travelled with two other family members that are special needs and require accomodations. When at the airport we had to stand around for an hour in a long line up with me trying to push two people in a wheel chair plus their baggage as I inched to customs is when I had second thoughts. Three years ago I complianed at the airport but was advised that the airport meets the accessibility basic laws for those with disabilities. Not about money it's about accomodation.

You walk into the airport in Buffalo. No line up. You have airport staff seeing that we are struggling come to the rescue by grabbing our luggage taking it to the gate and then waiting for us patiently as we get there and then give a head's up to the airlines staff. Toronto is too high volume for this kind of service. And better yet we don't have to hear comments from air rage people that mutter things like, "why do these people bother travelling and just stay home," under their breathe.

We have a good case suing the government on this but we don't.

When I don't have these family members with me I'm an Air Canada fan and fly out of Toronto more than Buffalo.


I guess if you are a CDNPatriot and you fly from Buffalo, then it's a sad state of affair for Canada.

[FunSave22]

I don't know, sounds like its airlines & passengers bearing the costs for running/building/maintaining the airports as opposed to by everyone else's taxes...

This is partially correct. The US government gives a large amount of taxpayer dollars to airports to help pay for their costs. This isn't done in Canada.

However the Canadian government also charges airports "rent". This rent is not a fixed cost, but a percentage of their revenue. So the more airports earn, the more they have to pay the government.


The combination of US airports getting government money and Canadian airports needing to pay the government money makes it difficult for them to compete.

[r1lee]

there has always been a landing tax to land in Toronto.

2004
http://www.atac.ca/en/ourissues/advocacy/landing_fees.html

[r1lee]

I've travelled with two other family members that are special needs and require accomodations. When at the airport we had to stand around for an hour in a long line up with me trying to push two people in a wheel chair plus their baggage as I inched to customs is when I had second thoughts. Three years ago I complianed at the airport but was advised that the airport meets the accessibility basic laws for those with disabilities. Not about money it's about accomodation.

You walk into the airport in Buffalo. No line up. You have airport staff seeing that we are struggling come to the rescue by grabbing our luggage taking it to the gate and then waiting for us patiently as we get there and then give a head's up to the airlines staff. Toronto is too high volume for this kind of service. And better yet we don't have to hear comments from air rage people that mutter things like, "why do these people bother travelling and just stay home," under their breathe.

We have a good case suing the government on this but we don't.

When I don't have these family members with me I'm an Air Canada fan and fly out of Toronto more than Buffalo.

so what you're saying is, you don't want to pay $$$ for mediocre programming, I mean Services. Interesting.

I travel a lot, and never have I ever uttered those words about anyone with special needs and have never heard of anyone doing so. Please do not assume (unlikely) that a lot of people would, that's only a figment of your imagination thinking that people are.

Also, I'm glad that you have not sued the gov't for any illegitimate reasons.

[stealth]

so what you're saying is, you don't want to pay $$$ for mediocre programming, I mean Services. Interesting.

He probably doesnt pay taxes so, delights in everyone else footing the bill for his poor taste in entertainment...but if a cost comes out of his own pocket directly, he goes with the lowest bidder-ie. no loyalty to Canadians :lol::facepalm:

[DearSummer]

He probably doesnt pay taxes so, delights in everyone else footing the bill for his poor taste in entertainment...but if a cost comes out of his own pocket directly, he goes with the lowest bidder-ie. no loyalty to Canadians :lol::facepalm:

Haha exactly. He looks down on the person who doesn't want to spend money on inferior products for a higher price but then turns around and does it himself. Hypocrit.

[neutral]

This is partially correct. The US government gives a large amount of taxpayer dollars to airports to help pay for their costs. This isn't done in Canada.

However the Canadian government also charges airports "rent". This rent is not a fixed cost, but a percentage of their revenue. So the more airports earn, the more they have to pay the government.


The combination of US airports getting government money and Canadian airports needing to pay the government money makes it difficult for them to compete.

Interesting. So at least in part, taxes are going to fund cheaper airport costs in the U.S. Not really free market.:(

[CDNPatriot]

Interesting on what posts engage you Dearsummer. When someone on other threads responds to your bold statements with studies or evidence stating otherwise such as in your deregulation thread you run away from the thread.

I fly Air Canada when I'm not flying my two family members with special needs and who are disabled. And we have debated this before. I even posted one of the main ideas behind my arguments in my signature for you Dearsummer of which you continue to evade responding to.

My second choice is American Airlines as both pilots and mechanics are unionized and not contracted out. I'm not a fan of JetBlue but unfortunately American Airlines never had flights to places we wanted to go at the right times out of Buffalo. JetBlue does not have a union and contracts their mechanics to the lowest bidder (yikes).

Now unless you have had the experience of having to bring two family members with special needs at Pearson airport, you do not know what I'm talking about. You take a lot of things for granted pushing two wheelchairs and luggages through all the way from the check in to customs in long lines inching your way through long lines. Push one wheelchair, then walk back and push the other wheelchair, then walk back and drag the first luggage, then walk back and drag the second luggage, then walk back and drag the third luggage plus the carry on that snapped from the suitcase attachment. Repeat this step literally at least 50 to 80 times until you get a seat on the plane. Compare that with Hamilton or Buffalo and it's a totally different experience.

Pearson should have high taxes. It's a busy airport and it needs to be taxed. Hopefully they can put the funds in a reserve fund to expand.

And to the comments about how no one comments about someone with a disability... glad you don't have to experience how ignorant people can be. It's a quite reflection on humanity I'm afraid.


Haha exactly. He looks down on the person who doesn't want to spend money on inferior products for a higher price but then turns around and does it himself. Hypocrit.

[CDNPatriot]

Thanks r1lee for doing the math for me. Do you know I was just asked this question on New Years Eve on whether it was cheaper to fly out of Toronto or Buffalo when you factor in the transportation costs and everything else and I wasn't able to respond.

How much cheaper is it for the three of us to fly out of Buffalo then Toronto since you know so much? Was it one dollar? 5 dollars? Or was it a few thousand?


so what you're saying is, you don't want to pay $$$ for mediocre programming, I mean Services. Interesting.

I travel a lot, and never have I ever uttered those words about anyone with special needs and have never heard of anyone doing so. Please do not assume (unlikely) that a lot of people would, that's only a figment of your imagination thinking that people are.

Also, I'm glad that you have not sued the gov't for any illegitimate reasons.

[DearSummer]

Interesting on what posts engage you Dearsummer. When someone on other threads responds to your bold statements with studies or evidence stating otherwise such as in your deregulation thread you run away from the thread.

I fly Air Canada when I'm not flying my two family members with special needs and who are disabled. And we have debated this before. I even posted one of the main ideas behind my arguments in my signature for you Dearsummer of which you continue to evade responding to.

My second choice is American Airlines as both pilots and mechanics are unionized and not contracted out. I'm not a fan of JetBlue but unfortunately American Airlines never had flights to places we wanted to go at the right times out of Buffalo. JetBlue does not have a union and contracts their mechanics to the lowest bidder (yikes).

Now unless you have had the experience of having to bring two family members with special needs at Pearson airport, you do not know what I'm talking about. You take a lot of things for granted pushing two wheelchairs and luggages through all the way from the check in to customs in long lines inching your way through long lines. Push one wheelchair, then walk back and push the other wheelchair, then walk back and drag the first luggage, then walk back and drag the second luggage, then walk back and drag the third luggage plus the carry on that snapped from the suitcase attachment. Repeat this step literally at least 50 to 80 times until you get a seat on the plane. Compare that with Hamilton or Buffalo and it's a totally different experience.

Pearson should have high taxes. It's a busy airport and it needs to be taxed. Hopefully they can put the funds in a reserve fund to expand.

And to the comments about how no one comments about someone with a disability... glad you don't have to experience how ignorant people can be. It's a quite reflection on humanity I'm afraid.

Right, so you buy the product/service that makes the most sense to you despite it not being Canadian. Who are you to say that people shouldn't be allowed to buy the product/service that they want to just because of where the product is made?

[CDNPatriot]

I never said that for people that have an accomodation they should be forced to buy Canadian products that they cannot effectively use.

By the way, when you factor in other expenses, flying out of Buffalo is the same price if not more as you have to factor in parking and gas whereas Toronto someone can easily drive us there. Also, Buffalo flights are rarely direct. Toronto more of a selection of direct flights.

Try again...

PS posted another two links in addition to my other unanwered links on your Electricity Deregulation thread.


Right, so you buy the product/service that makes the most sense to you despite it not being Canadian. Who are you to say that people shouldn't be allowed to buy the product/service that they want to just because of where the product is made?

[DearSummer]

I never said that for people that have an accomodation they should be forced to buy Canadian products that they cannot effectively use.

By the way, when you factor in other expenses, flying out of Buffalo is the same price if not more as you have to factor in parking and gas whereas Toronto someone can easily drive us there. Also, Buffalo flights are rarely direct. Toronto more of a selection of direct flights.

Try again...

PS posted another two links in addition to my other unanwered links on your Electricity Deregulation thread.

So you agree that free trade is a good thing...

[r1lee]

Thanks r1lee for doing the math for me. Do you know I was just asked this question on New Years Eve on whether it was cheaper to fly out of Toronto or Buffalo when you factor in the transportation costs and everything else and I wasn't able to respond.

How much cheaper is it for the three of us to fly out of Buffalo then Toronto since you know so much? Was it one dollar? 5 dollars? Or was it a few thousand?

I have done the math flying out of buffalo on many occasions and with long term parking, it is considerabe in some instances. But I not like the idea of depending on a quick cross with no delay affecting my flight.

I know lots of people who do this and if there wasn't a savings to be had, it wouldn't be done.

[CDNPatriot]

Depends on how many members are driving and whether you are renting the car, and what type of long term parking. We use the valet one as any other one would not be feasible for us. I'm not quite sure really if it's cheaper as I didn't even research Toronto prices at the time and not even sure if there is an archived database of ticket prices on the day I left. Using hypotheticals that are currently listed on orbitz.com some destinations is more expensive flying from Toronto and some are more expensive flying from Buffalo. (assuming you are going for valet long term parking and the gas costs)


I have done the math flying out of buffalo on many occasions and with long term parking, it is considerabe in some instances. But I not like the idea of depending on a quick cross with no delay affecting my flight.

I know lots of people who do this and if there wasn't a savings to be had, it wouldn't be done.

[Hot Ice]

Depends on how many members are driving and whether you are renting the car, and what type of long term parking. We use the valet one as any other one would not be feasible for us. I'm not quite sure really if it's cheaper as I didn't even research Toronto prices at the time and not even sure if there is an archived database of ticket prices on the day I left. Using hypotheticals that are currently listed on orbitz.com some destinations is more expensive flying from Toronto and some are more expensive flying from Buffalo. (assuming you are going for valet long term parking and the gas costs)

If the CDN Dollar was 20% cheaper, then many people would avoid the hassle and fly from Canada. Right now, with the dollar at par, it's much cheaper to fly from the states. The ticket price is more expensive for some but overall it works out because Pearson Airport charges an arm and a leg which translate to high tax on the air tickets. And there are strength in numbers, a family of 4 saves enough for free hotel stay at most places. Now you mentioned services out of Pearson is basic for people with needs, I believe this is due to big city and small town mentality. Small town people are friendlier. If you want this kind of service in Pearson, you need to prearrange with the airport or the airline.

When I fly out of Buffalo, the gas is free to me, because you fill up a whole tank at 30 cents cheaper per liter on avg.

[gei]

Buffalo is a dump and driving all the way there to save a few hundred bucks is just not worth it. You couldn't pay me to fly out of there.

[vlado416]

I think Toronto needs a second airport or even a third airport (island airport doesn't count) which will logically lower the cost in the long term .If your only option of flying into Canada is Pearson then they can charge whatever they want and live off of the fat just like certain other monopolies around here. It's so obvious that it doesn't need to be said. But there is also so many entitled entities that are living off of ripping of and people in Canada being meek as they are just submit to whatever nonsense there is so that CEO's and other lazy people can make a great living by doing next to nothing. Notice how they now charge exhorbitant fees for luggage and then there is 8$ beer

[vlado416]

Buffalo is a dump and driving all the way there to save a few hundred bucks is just not worth it. You couldn't pay me to fly out of there.

3rd poorest US city. Buffalo , Detroit and Cleveland are probably the worst US cities who just happen to be on the Canadian border.

[gilboman]

I think Toronto needs a second airport or even a third airport (island airport doesn't count) which will logically lower the cost in the long term .If your only option of flying into Canada is Pearson then they can charge whatever they want and live off of the fat just like certain other monopolies around here. It's so obvious that it doesn't need to be said. But there is also so many entitled entities that are living off of ripping of and people in Canada being meek as they are just submit to whatever nonsense there is so that CEO's and other lazy people can make a great living by doing next to nothing. Notice how they now charge exhorbitant fees for luggage and then there is 8$ beer

you obviously have no clue on how it works in Canada. :facepalm:

[vlado416]

please do tell

[FunSave22]

please do tell
GTAA, which runs Pearson, is a break even business. It's very similar to a non-profit organization, although not exactly the same.

They are not a monopoly living off the fat, as you claim. While you can question some of their decisions, no one is making a huge amount of money from Pearson. Except maybe the federal government from the rent paid to them.

[gilboman]

please do tell

Airports have to pay rent to the gov't and they are non profit and have to break even. So that translates to higher charges to the airline in landing fees, then there's Nav Canada charges which are independent of the airport and security fees and so forth that is also from the feds.

By your suggestions, having other airports would just increase prices, Pearson utilizes it's retail and various ancillary services/products to offset operating costs. If you have more airports, they all have the same cost structure, only now you've eliminated any economies of scale and lowered the price/rents Pearson can charge retailers/tenants/ancillary services, which in turn leads to higher hard/mandatory charges to cover rent. We haven't even begun to touch how would any other airport pay for the initial infrastructure to be in operation in the first place:facepalm:

But all this is quite easily found online anyways, don't look to be spoon fed all the time.

[neutral]

Man, this thread really needs a Milton Friedman video right about now.