Engineer in training on business card

[nemollc]

hi

so i am going to be getting a new business card(from my employer)

my question is.........do i have to put EIT on my title or no?

im going to be giving my card to a lot of american/asians/europeans and i dont think i would get the same respect as they would think im some sort of intern or something(as they dont have a similar title in their countries)

i know that its encouraged by peo/appega etc but can/will they enforce it by law?

[PrettyMao]

You can put whatever you want on it, but if you do put purport yourself to be an engineer when you aren't licensed you could face disciplinary action from your provincial engineering board. Disciplinary action could range from a suspended license to a full denial (unlikely) of license and maybe a fine.

Just do what all the other EITs do and call yourself a "specialist".

Also, some states do have EIT and EI titles.


If you want respect from your clients be sure to put your B.Eng. on your cards.

[corvettefan]

APEGGA lets you use the title 'Engineer' if you have an EIT beside your name, but PEO strictly doesn't. But you don't have to put EIT beside your name always, just use something like 'Specialist', 'Coordinator', 'Supervisor' etc as the previous poster implied.
But remember having an EIT title means that you've already graduated from Engineering school, are registered in good standing with your provincial Engineering regulator and are working towards a P Eng designation. So there's no shame in that, and your clients should also understand that.

[Sylvestre]

My $0.02 - don't bother. You'll get your p.Eng soon enough and that's all that matters.

[nemollc]

my title says engineer in it (CANT change it) so thats what has to be on the business card

im not registered with any engineering organization as an EIT(dont see the point)

now my question is when i hand my business card to canadian engineers/potential employers in the future will they see me as "unprofessional" for not having the EIT symbol behind my name?

[ekashyap]

my title says engineer in it (CANT change it) so thats what has to be on the business card

im not registered with any engineering organization as an EIT(dont see the point)

now my question is when i hand my business card to canadian engineers/potential employers in the future will they see me as "unprofessional" for not having the EIT symbol behind my name?

Short answer, nope. EIT is a useless designation, it's more like a waiting period toward the P.Eng status which comes later. You may choose to put the P.Eng on your business card but it is not necessary. EIT I feel must not go on a business card at all, it's a pointless accreditation for future employers, customers, etc. If someone asks, just say yes you are an EIT (if you really are) and move on. I am an EIT and have the word Engineer in my job title and my business card states my job title but nothing about B.Eng or EIT. If someone has half a brain, they should know that the job title with Engineer would only apply to Engineers only and if they are unsure about my qualifications, they are welcome to ask.

[corvettefan]

my title says engineer in it (CANT change it) so thats what has to be on the business card

im not registered with any engineering organization as an EIT(dont see the point)

now my question is when i hand my business card to canadian engineers/potential employers in the future will they see me as "unprofessional" for not having the EIT symbol behind my name?


Short answer, nope. EIT is a useless designation, it's more like a waiting period toward the P.Eng status which comes later. You may choose to put the P.Eng on your business card but it is not necessary. EIT I feel must not go on a business card at all, it's a pointless accreditation for future employers, customers, etc. If someone asks, just say yes you are an EIT (if you really are) and move on. I am an EIT and have the word Engineer in my job title and my business card states my job title but nothing about B.Eng or EIT. If someone has half a brain, they should know that the job title with Engineer would only apply to Engineers only and if they are unsure about my qualifications, they are welcome to ask.

WRONG!
You CANNOT use the title 'Engineer' on your Business Card in Ontario if you're not registered as a P.Eng with PEO. This is in direct violation of the Professional Engineers Act of Ontario and Ontario Regulation 941 and you can be taken to court and fined upto $10,000 by PEO if they find out or someone reports you to them.

EIT is still a useful designation to have even if you don't use it on your business card. It doesn't cost you anything as your employer should help pay the annual dues ($84.75), and PEO gives you good tips from time to time for your P Eng exam and experience review. You also get almost 30% discount on insurance from TD Meloche Monnex as part of their Group Discount program.

[hvc]

In Ontario, if you are not registered in the EIT (Engineering Intern Training, not engineer in training as you say), you can't even use EIT, let alone have "Engineer" in your title.



Under the Professional Engineers Act, the title "engineer" is reserved for licenced professional engineers (except for certain applications such as hoisting engineer and stationary engineers).

You may use the title "Engineering Intern" or its accepted abbreviation "EIT" if you are registered in PEO's Engineering Intern Training Program. If you would like more information about this program, please contact the association.
Examples of recently revised job titles where the word "Engineer" has been replaced include:

Project Engineer changed to Project Manager, Project Coordinator, Project Analyst, Project Leader, Project Operator, Project Specialist.
Software Engineer to Software Developer, Software Designer, Software Analyst
Technical Engineer to Technical Officer
Junior Engineer to Engineering Trainee or Junior Designer
You may utilize your department name, e.g., Metallurgical Process Engineer to Metallurgical Process Engineering, Quality Assurance Engineer to Quality Assurance Engineering
You may also utilize your engineering degree following your name, e.g. "B.A.Sc.", or "B.Eng."
"Engineering Specialist" is not acceptable.
Titles such as Junior Engineer, Graduate Engineer, Assistant Engineer are not acceptable.


Source: http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Use%20of%20the%20Term%20Engineer.pdf

[Winkle]

WRONG!
You CANNOT use the title 'Engineer' on your Business Card in Ontario if you're not registered as a P.Eng with PEO. This is in direct violation of the Professional Engineers Act of Ontario and Ontario Regulation 941 and you can be taken to court and fined upto $10,000 by PEO if they find out or someone reports you to them.

EIT is still a useful designation to have even if you don't use it on your business card. It doesn't cost you anything as your employer should help pay the annual dues ($84.75), and PEO gives you good tips from time to time for your P Eng exam and experience review. You also get almost 30% discount on insurance from TD Meloche Monnex as part of their Group Discount program.

Thank you, glad someone pointed this out. And keep in mind that Ontario Reg. 941 is an Ontario provincial law, so if someone is not a licensed P.Eng or have been granted one of the other provisional equivalent licenses by PEO, then it is actually illegal for them to use "Engineer" in their job titles or even call themselves an Engineer.

The EIT program has a lot of uses and benefits, it's good to sign up. No shame in putting EIT behind your name, I did it for 4 years and it never bothered me nor did anyone look down on me because of it. Listing B.Eng behind your name isn't really useful, EIT is good in that it shows you are registered with one of the provincial engineering associations and are in the process of obtaining your P.Eng. I wouldn't worry about international clients not knowing what it is.

[Luckyinfil]

In Ontario, if you are not registered in the EIT (Engineering Intern Training, not engineer in training as you say), you can't even use EIT, let alone have "Engineer" in your title.



Source: http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Use%20of%20the%20Term%20Engineer.pdf

You can put engineer if you want but you can't put "Professional Engineer". PEO has gone after people in the IT industry for having Engineer in their title but has failed to win everytime because they can't even define the word engineer properly. The law only dictates that you can't be a "Professional Engineer" without having a p.eng.

[corvettefan]

You can put engineer if you want but you can't put "Professional Engineer". PEO has gone after people in the IT industry for having Engineer in their title but has failed to win everytime because they can't even define the word engineer properly. The law only dictates that you can't be a "Professional Engineer" without having a p.eng.

I repeat, you cannot use the title 'Engineer' in any form as a professional designation in Ontario if you're not a registered P Eng with PEO.

Section 12 (1) of the Professional Engineers Act states that:


Licensing requirement

12. (1) No person shall engage in the practice of professional engineering or hold himself, herself or itself out as engaging in the practice of professional engineering unless the person is the holder of a licence, a temporary licence, a provisional licence or a limited licence. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.28, s. 12 (1); 2001, c. 9, Sched. B, s. 11 (16).


And section 40 (1) of the same act states that:


Offence, practice of professional engineering

40. (1) Every person who contravenes section 12 is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable for the first offence to a fine of not more than $25,000 and for each subsequent offence to a fine of not more than $50,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.28, s. 40 (1).

Offence, use of term “professional engineer”, etc.

(2) Every person who is not a holder of a licence or a temporary licence and who,

(a) uses the title “professional engineer” or “ingénieur” or an abbreviation or variation thereof as an occupational or business designation;

(a.1) uses the title “engineer” or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering;

(b) uses a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or

(c) uses a seal that will lead to the belief that the person is a professional engineer,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable for the first offence to a fine of not more than $10,000 and for each subsequent offence to a fine of not more than $25,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.28, s. 40 (2); 2001, c. 9, Sched. B, s. 11 (59).

Link here: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90p28_e.htm#BK1

As an example, in the IT/Software industry, titles like Software Engineer or Network Engineer cannot be used in Ontario without being registered as a P Eng with the PEO. A while back, Microsoft Canada was fined $10,000 by a Quebec court for their MCSE program, as it did not meet all the requirements of a professional engineering designation, but used the title engineer.

[hvc]

You can put engineer if you want but you can't put "Professional Engineer". PEO has gone after people in the IT industry for having Engineer in their title but has failed to win everytime because they can't even define the word engineer properly. The law only dictates that you can't be a "Professional Engineer" without having a p.eng.

I'm not an engineer, but I know this is not true. As posted above, you cannot use the title "Engineer" if you are not an engineer, as it leads to the belief that you are in fact a professional engineer (when you are not).

[funnykid]

Seems pretty clear to me. It's like you cannot claim to be a lawyer or attorney if you're not licensed. Or you cannot claim to be a physician if you're not licensed with the provincial college.

[Winkle]

You can put engineer if you want but you can't put "Professional Engineer". PEO has gone after people in the IT industry for having Engineer in their title but has failed to win everytime because they can't even define the word engineer properly. The law only dictates that you can't be a "Professional Engineer" without having a p.eng.

Slightly different situations, train "drivers" or "engineers" can use that term in their job title, same with other jobs like sound engineer because their job title clearly conveys that they are not professional engineers who do design work.

But if you use the term "engineer" in your job title on the business card of an engineering consulting company, or even calling yourself a Building Engineer or Software Engineer when you are not a licensed P.Eng, you're signing yourself up for a potential world of trouble because those job titles do imply that you are a professional engineer who performs design work.

[Luckyinfil]

I repeat, you cannot use the title 'Engineer' in any form as a professional designation in Ontario if you're not a registered P Eng with PEO.

Section 12 (1) of the Professional Engineers Act states that:



And section 40 (1) of the same act states that:



Link here: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90p28_e.htm#BK1

As an example, in the IT/Software industry, titles like Software Engineer or Network Engineer cannot be used in Ontario without being registered as a P Eng with the PEO. A while back, Microsoft Canada was fined $10,000 by a Quebec court for their MCSE program, as it did not meet all the requirements of a professional engineering designation, but used the title engineer.

Source?? And that is in Quebec which the PEO has no jurisdiction over. In Ontario, you can call yourself a Software/Network Engineer without being a Professional Engineer. In fact just because it says on the PEO website, it doesn't mean that it holds any water. You're welcome to prove me wrong by linking me to any case IN ONTARIO where a company has been sued in the IT industry for having the words Engineer in the job title.

[Luckyinfil]

Slightly different situations, train "drivers" or "engineers" can use that term in their job title, same with other jobs like sound engineer because their job title clearly conveys that they are not professional engineers who do design work.

But if you use the term "engineer" in your job title on the business card of an engineering consulting company, or even calling yourself a Building Engineer or Software Engineer when you are not a licensed P.Eng, you're signing yourself up for a potential world of trouble because those job titles do imply that you are a professional engineer who performs design work.

Completely subjective. At least in Ontario, the PEO has not been able to make any grounds on "Engineer" titles in the IT industry because they couldn't clearly define the word "engineer" to any of the higher binding courts.

[Winkle]

Source?? And that is in Quebec which the PEO has no jurisdiction over. In Ontario, you can call yourself a Software/Network Engineer without being a Professional Engineer. In fact just because it says on the PEO website, it doesn't mean that it holds any water. You're welcome to prove me wrong by linking me to any case IN ONTARIO where a company has been sued in the IT industry for having the words Engineer in the job title.

Source is here (http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Quebec_MS_April2004.pdf).


Completely subjective. At least in Ontario, the PEO has not been able to make any grounds on "Engineer" titles in the IT industry because they couldn't clearly define the word "engineer" to any of the higher binding courts.

It's not really that subjective. Also, can you please link your source for this?

From the article I linked to:

The PEO has yet to prosecute anyone calling himself a software engineer because it has found no evidence that the public has been misled by the term, Newton said.

[corvettefan]

Source?? And that is in Quebec which the PEO has no jurisdiction over. In Ontario, you can call yourself a Software/Network Engineer without being a Professional Engineer. In fact just because it says on the PEO website, it doesn't mean that it holds any water. You're welcome to prove me wrong by linking me to any case IN ONTARIO where a company has been sued in the IT industry for having the words Engineer in the job title.

It doesn't just say so on the PEO website, it is actually an act of law that was passed in the Ontario legislature in 1990, last amended in 2010 and is enforceable by the PEO as per my previous post. If you have a problem with that, then go see your local MPP.
(http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90p28_e.htm#BK1) This link is actually from the Service Canada website if you ever care to open it.

I'm not a lawyer and do not have the time and expertise to go through all the case histories, but here is a link from the PEO website which tells you everything about Software Engineers from PEO's perspective.
http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Software_engineering_page.html

I do not see why this is a big deal with Software Engineers anyway. Most Software Engineering programs in Canadian schools are CEAB accredited, so all you have to do is go through the proper application process, and register yourself as a P Eng with the PEO. Even for internationally trained engineers, the PEO has a very streamlined process for writing your technical exams and registering as a P Eng with them.

[kenchau66]

B.A. (hons) candidate

LOL

[Truemana]

I love discussions like this. Professional engineering associations rarely, if ever, purue those who misuse "engineer". It's an old term that has been used and re-used in common language for hundreds of years. It's so difficult to control. Medicine is a new profession (150-200 years old) and the law profession is similarly old. Humans have engineered things for thousands of years and the laws of physics have not changed.

[Luckyinfil]

Source is here (http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Quebec_MS_April2004.pdf).



It's not really that subjective. Also, can you please link your source for this?

From the article I linked to:

?????????????? That just proves my point. Thanks.

[Luckyinfil]

It doesn't just say so on the PEO website, it is actually an act of law that was passed in the Ontario legislature in 1990, last amended in 2010 and is enforceable by the PEO as per my previous post. If you have a problem with that, then go see your local MPP.
(http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90p28_e.htm#BK1) This link is actually from the Service Canada website if you ever care to open it.

I'm not a lawyer and do not have the time and expertise to go through all the case histories, but here is a link from the PEO website which tells you everything about Software Engineers from PEO's perspective.
http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Software_engineering_page.html

I do not see why this is a big deal with Software Engineers anyway. Most Software Engineering programs in Canadian schools are CEAB accredited, so all you have to do is go through the proper application process, and register yourself as a P Eng with the PEO. Even for internationally trained engineers, the PEO has a very streamlined process for writing your technical exams and registering as a P Eng with them.

You don't need to be a lawyer to have common sense. If the PEO felt so strongly that you can't call yourself a software engineer without having a P.Eng, then they would just cite the Professional Engineers act like they did for civil/mechanical engineers etc above. They wouldn't need to create an entire section dedicated to providing examples (like in quebec where they have no jurisdiction over) trying to convince people they can't use the title "Software Engineer".

And it is their duty to protect the public, yet they haven't prosecuted anybody in the IT industry? HRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..... doesn't take an engineer to figure that out right?

[Luckyinfil]

And this is from the PEO website


Enforcement is legal action PEO takes against individuals or entities who practise engineering without a licence, or offer engineering services without holding a Certificate of Authorization (C of A). With only a few exceptions, only people who are licensed with PEO can practise professional engineering, and only people or entities holding Cs of A issued by PEO can offer or provide professional engineering services to the public.

Sections 39 and 40 of the Professional Engineers Act give PEO the authority to take action. Section 40(1) sets maximum fines for individuals and firms practising without the necessary licences (P.Eng., and/or C of A). These fines are $25,000 for a first offence and $50,000 for each subsequent offence. Section 40(2) authorizes fines of up to $10,000 for a first offence and $25,000 for each subsequent offence, for people who:

* use the title "professional engineer" or an abbreviation or variation as an occupational designation;
* use a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or
* use a seal that will lead to the belief that the person is a professional engineer.

Section 40(3) states similar requirements for those entities that do not have a C of A.


1) Nope. "Software Engineer" != "Professional Engineer"
2) Nobody being mislead as shown by the poster above
3) No stamps in IT Industry.

[Winkle]

?????????????? That just proves my point. Thanks.

Err... you proved your point by having no sources to back up any of your claims?


You don't need to be a lawyer to have common sense. If the PEO felt so strongly that you can't call yourself a software engineer without having a P.Eng, then they would just cite the Professional Engineers act like they did for civil/mechanical engineers etc above. They wouldn't need to create an entire section dedicated to providing examples (like in quebec where they have no jurisdiction over) trying to convince people they can't use the title "Software Engineer".

Again, not sure what your point is here. The website set up by PEO to explain Software Engineering because it is a relatively new, accredited field of engineering that is becoming very common. Check the CEAB accreditation documentation here (http://www.engineerscanada.ca/files/w_Accredited_Engineering_programs.pdf). Software Engineering only started receiving CEAB accreditation in 2001 with three schools in Ontario.

Sure, there are other newer fields of engineering entering into the foray in recent years but they are more niche and less far less common then Software Engineering. That website was set up to educate the public on a new, rapidly growing field of engineering that is accredited by the CEAB. The Quebec case was one where a school was using the term "software engineering" to promote a Bachelor of Science program that was not accredited by the CEAB.



And it is their duty to protect the public, yet they haven't prosecuted anybody in the IT industry? HRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..... doesn't take an engineer to figure that out right?

Hilariously faulty logic. Just because I've never been pulled over by the cops when I blow by them doing 150 on the highway does not mean it's legal for me to speed.

[Luckyinfil]

Err... you proved your point by having no sources to back up any of your claims?



Again, not sure what your point is here. The website set up by PEO to explain Software Engineering because it is a relatively new, accredited field of engineering that is becoming very common. Check the CEAB accreditation documentation here (http://www.engineerscanada.ca/files/w_Accredited_Engineering_programs.pdf). Software Engineering only started receiving CEAB accreditation in 2001 with three schools in Ontario.

Sure, there are other newer fields of engineering entering into the foray in recent years but they are more niche and less far less common then Software Engineering. That website was set up to educate the public on a new, rapidly growing field of engineering that is accredited by the CEAB. The Quebec case was one where a school was using the term "software engineering" to promote a Bachelor of Science program that was not accredited by the CEAB.



Hilariously faulty logic. Just because I've never been pulled over by the cops when I blow by them doing 150 on the highway does not mean it's legal for me to speed.

Hilariously faulty logic. Just because you haven't been caught doesn't mean the cops aren't looking to persecute you :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

[hvc]

Subscribed. :)

[Winkle]

Hilariously faulty logic. Just because you haven't been caught doesn't mean the cops aren't looking to persecute you :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

That just proves my point. Thanks.

[gilboman]

I repeat, you cannot use the title 'Engineer' in any form as a professional designation in Ontario if you're not a registered P Eng with PEO.

Section 12 (1) of the Professional Engineers Act states that:



And section 40 (1) of the same act states that:



Link here: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90p28_e.htm#BK1

As an example, in the IT/Software industry, titles like Software Engineer or Network Engineer cannot be used in Ontario without being registered as a P Eng with the PEO. A while back, Microsoft Canada was fined $10,000 by a Quebec court for their MCSE program, as it did not meet all the requirements of a professional engineering designation, but used the title engineer.

all your links that you posted just totally disproved what you're saying though:?:

You can use engineer in your title, just not P.Eng if you aren't one. says it right in what you posted. But is it ok for P.Eng to call themselves like software engineer or whatever? to sound more prestigious?

[Luckyinfil]

That just proves my point. Thanks.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: Who have the PEO sued and won? *crickets*

Exactly.

And from the articles posted on PEO website:


Earlier this year, meanwhile, an Alberta court ruled in favour of an Apple-certified
systems engineer who had been sued by a provincial engineering association.


Earlier this year, meanwhile, an Alberta court ruled in favour of an Apple-certified
systems engineer who had been sued by a provincial engineering association.


Earlier this year, meanwhile, an Alberta court ruled in favour of an Apple-certified
systems engineer who had been sued by a provincial engineering association.


Earlier this year, meanwhile, an Alberta court ruled in favour of an Apple-certified
systems engineer who had been sued by a provincial engineering association.

Source: http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Quebec_MS_April2004.pdf

lolz.. so many butthurt engineers :(.

[Luckyinfil]

all your links that you posted just totally disproved what you're saying though:?:

You can use engineer in your title, just not P.Eng if you aren't one. says it right in what you posted. But is it ok for P.Eng to call themselves like software engineer or whatever? to sound more prestigious?

Too many idiots around. If any of them went to ACTUAL engineering school, they'd know from their ethics courses (such as PDENG) how wrong they are :(.

[Winkle]

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: Who have the PEO sued and won? *crickets*

Exactly.

And from the articles posted on PEO website:









Source: http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Quebec_MS_April2004.pdf

lolz.. so many butthurt engineers :(.

Hrm... alright you make a good point there, PEO clearly tried to sue someone on his issue in Alberta and failed and... oh wait, PEO doesn't operate or have jurisdiction in Alberta. :facepalm:

You keep pointing out so nicely that PEO has tried to sue but failed to win on this issue yet you have failed to provide any sources to back this up, or you simply deflect the question when asked to do so. Again, please enlighten us and direct us to examples or cases where PEO took legal actions on this issue and lost in court because they failed to define the term "engineer".

[Luckyinfil]

Hrm... alright you make a good point there, PEO clearly tried to sue someone on his issue in Alberta and failed and... oh wait, PEO doesn't operate or have jurisdiction in Alberta. :facepalm:

You keep pointing out so nicely that PEO has tried to sue but failed to win on this issue yet you have failed to provide any sources to back this up, or you simply deflect the question when asked to do so. Again, please enlighten us and direct us to examples or cases where PEO took legal actions on this issue and lost in court because they failed to define the term "engineer".

Can you not read properly? Where did I say the PEO sued an Alberta man? If you read the article, it clearly says that:


Earlier this year, meanwhile, an Alberta court ruled in favour of an Apple-certified
systems engineer who had been sued by a provincial engineering association (probably the Alberta equivalent to the PEO).

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

[nemollc]

thanks for the help/replies guys

so i decided to put EIT on the card because i wanna cover my tracks incase some narc decides to rat me out :D

[MrGoodbar]

Can you not read properly? Where did I say the PEO sued an Alberta man? If you read the article, it clearly says that:



:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
http://www.apegga.org/Members/Publications/peggs/Web05-02/titles.htm

The judge's ruling stated that:
". . .the term System Engineer has been widely used in the IT industry and, while connoting a degree of expertise, does not indicate one is a professional engineer or the practice of engineering is being carried on. It has acquired a secondary meaning similar to Marine Engineer or Flight Engineer. This understanding is particularly clear to those familiar with the IT industry. Because of the modifier "system," there is little likelihood that confusion will arise because such engineers are representing themselves improperly.

"In addition, the Respondent is not holding himself out to the public in order to solicit work in the field of engineering. The Applicant does not contend that he should be prevented from carrying on his vocation, as he is at present.
"Ultimately, the public's safety must be the primary concern. The Respondent's situation is such that it cannot be contended that the public is likely to be deceived, confused or jeopardized by his use of the term. . ."

[corvettefan]

thanks for the help/replies guys

so i decided to put EIT on the card because i wanna cover my tracks incase some narc decides to rat me out :D

I think I've conveyed my message to the right people. You made the right decision, since there's one less thing to worry about now. Unfortunately, Ontario is moving towards increased regulation in everything they do, so you should cover your behind in every way you can. I do not even want to get into the million ways you can get screwed by OHSA and Ministry Of Labour these days in your workplace, even when you apply simple common sense.


all your links that you posted just totally disproved what you're saying though:?:

You can use engineer in your title, just not P.Eng if you aren't one. says it right in what you posted. But is it ok for P.Eng to call themselves like software engineer or whatever? to sound more prestigious?

I quote part of section 40 (1) again, for the 3rd time:



(2) Every person who is not a holder of a licence or a temporary licence and who,

(a) uses the title “professional engineer” or “ingénieur” or an abbreviation or variation thereof as an occupational or business designation;

(a.1) uses the title “engineer” or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering;

(b) uses a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or


It says "uses the title engineer or an abbreviation", even if you don't put the suffix P Eng after your name. Do I have to give out English lessons now?

To all the naysayers out there, I do not benefit in any way if you register with the PEO. I'm just a fellow member and an idiot and a butthurt engineer; and am only quoting the law, as it exists. Those who wish to heed my advice are welcome, and those who don't wish can continue on with their lives. Having a P Eng and an iron ring doesn't inflate my ego in any way, since my job on its own is important enough. But then again, I'm not speaking for the entire Engineering community.

Ciao

[Luckyinfil]

I think I've conveyed my message to the right people. You made the right decision, since there's one less thing to worry about now. Unfortunately, Ontario is moving towards increased regulation in everything they do, so you should cover your behind in every way you can. I do not even want to get into the million ways you can get screwed by OHSA and Ministry Of Labour these days in your workplace, even when you apply simple common sense.



I quote part of section 40 (1) again, for the 3rd time:



It says "uses the title engineer or an abbreviation", even if you don't put the suffix P Eng after your name. Do I have to give out English lessons now?

To all the naysayers out there, I do not benefit in any way if you register with the PEO. I'm just a fellow member and an idiot and a butthurt engineer; and am only quoting the law, as it exists. Those who wish to heed my advice are welcome, and those who don't wish can continue on with their lives. Having a P Eng and an iron ring doesn't inflate my ego in any way, since my job on its own is important enough. But then again, I'm not speaking for the entire Engineering community.

Ciao

Way to misquote something. Notice how "Professional Engineer" is in quotes. What do quotes mean in a sentence?

[Luckyinfil]

And this is the real quote as stated on the PEO website:


Sections 39 and 40 of the Professional Engineers Act give PEO the authority to take action. Section 40(1) sets maximum fines for individuals and firms practising without the necessary licences (P.Eng., and/or C of A). These fines are $25,000 for a first offence and $50,000 for each subsequent offence. Section 40(2) authorizes fines of up to $10,000 for a first offence and $25,000 for each subsequent offence, for people who:

use the title "professional engineer" or an abbreviation or variation as an occupational designation; Since when did "Software Engineer" = "Professional Engineer?
use a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or As indicated by earlier article, there is no misleading
use a seal that will lead to the belief that the person is a professional engineer. No seals to stamp

Section 40(3) states similar requirements for those entities that do not have a C of A.

[corvettefan]

And this is the real quote as stated on the PEO website:


use the title "professional engineer" or an abbreviation or variation as an occupational designation; Since when did "Software Engineer" = "Professional Engineer?
use a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or As indicated by earlier article, there is no misleading
use a seal that will lead to the belief that the person is a professional engineer. No seals to stamp

Wrong again. An abbreviation of "Professional Engineer" in English is P Eng, and a variation is "Engineer". So using the title "Software Engineer" would be the variation of the title "Professional Engineer" implying that the person has a P Eng. Hence, "Software Engineer" = "Professional Engineer", even if you don't put a P Eng after it.
They break it down nicely in section 40 (2)(a.1), which is what I quoted in my previous post: "(a.1) uses the title “engineer” or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering".
It explicitly says uses the title "engineer", not just "professional engineer".

[Luckyinfil]

Wrong again. An abbreviation of "Professional Engineer" in English is P Eng, and a variation is "Engineer". So using the title "Software Engineer" would be the variation of the title "Professional Engineer" implying that the person has a P Eng. Hence, "Software Engineer" = "Professional Engineer", even if you don't put a P Eng after it.
They break it down nicely in section 40 (2)(a.1), which is what I quoted in my previous post: "(a.1) uses the title “engineer” or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering".
It explicitly says uses the title "engineer", not just "professional engineer".

Variation = Prof. Eng. , Professional Eng., Prof.Engineer etc.

Software Engineer is not a variation of Professional Engineer. Nice try tho.

[Luckyinfil]

Oh boy, train engineers have to be P.Eng too now :(

[hvc]

Lol, you're like the TripAddict of engineering.

I like this thread :)

[corvettefan]

Variation = Prof. Eng. , Professional Eng., Prof.Engineer etc.

Software Engineer is not a variation of Professional Engineer. Nice try tho.

Do you even know what an abbreviation is? From Webster's website: "a shortened form of a written word or phrase used in place of the whole". Link here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abbreviation

All the examples you mentioned in your post are abbreviations of the phrase "Professional Engineer", as in Prof. Eng. , Professional Eng., Prof.Engineer.

A variation of the phrase "Professional Engineer" would be "Engineer", "Software Engineer", "Principal Engineer", "Mechanical Engineer" etc. Notice how the word "Professional" is missing from these job titles, thereby making it a variation.

You just keep losing your credibility more and more with every post in this thread.

[Mark77]

hi
so i am going to be getting a new business card(from my employer)
my question is.........do i have to put EIT on my title or no?
im going to be giving my card to a lot of american/asians/europeans and i dont think i would get the same respect as they would think im some sort of intern or something(as they dont have a similar title in their countries)
i know that its encouraged by peo/appega etc but can/will they enforce it by law?

a) Technically EIT (or P.Eng.) is only valid in the province you're registered in anyways. So if you are an Alberta P.Eng., and you hand out a business card with <your name>, EIT/P.Eng. with your company's Ontario branch address, you may be subject to Ontario prosecution.

b) All of the licensing agencies will give you at least a warning/friendly reminder before they refer you to prosecution, unless you are blatent about it (ie: someone with no engineering qualification holding themselves out as a licensed P.Eng.)

c) You're right, Engineer-in-Training is misconceived as being a student outside of Canada. "Engineering Internship Training" is an even worse title as it implies that EITs are 'interns'.

d) If one is doing work in an industry that is federally regulated, P.Eng. or even EIT is completely meaningless. For instance, anyone can basically call themselves a "Nuclear Engineer" or a "Train Engineer" or an "Aeronautics Engineer" because these fields of engineering are regulated federally (meaning that there is no regulation since P.Eng. and EITs are provincially derived designations).


Of course, in the software industry, even if one does become an EIT or a P.Eng., one would be highly advised to never use their Professional Stamp. For various reasons.

[Mark77]

I love discussions like this. Professional engineering associations rarely, if ever, purue those who misuse "engineer".

They certainly can, and do, when P.Eng. is misused, and/or one holds themselves out as being a member of their 'association' without being a member. Basically their 'brand' is the P.Eng. title, not whether someone uses "engineer".

But you're correct otherwise.

[tylaw83]

Do you even know what an abbreviation is? From Webster's website: "a shortened form of a written word or phrase used in place of the whole". Link here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abbreviation

All the examples you mentioned in your post are abbreviations of the phrase "Professional Engineer", as in Prof. Eng. , Professional Eng., Prof.Engineer.

A variation of the phrase "Professional Engineer" would be "Engineer", "Software Engineer", "Principal Engineer", "Mechanical Engineer" etc. Notice how the word "Professional" is missing from these job titles, thereby making it a variation.

You just keep losing your credibility more and more with every post in this thread.

You really need to learn to read.

"uses the title “engineer” or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering;"

From above...The judge's ruling stated that:
". . .the term System Engineer has been widely used in the IT industry and, while connoting a degree of expertise, does not indicate one is a professional engineer or the practice of engineering is being carried on. It has acquired a secondary meaning similar to Marine Engineer or Flight Engineer. This understanding is particularly clear to those familiar with the IT industry..."

You could argue that this is the ruling of an Alberta court and not Ontario, but why bother. It's fairly clear to everyone that software engineer is a widely used title in the IT industry and does not convey an impression of one practicing professional engineering. Using a title such as mechanical engineering of structuring engineer would be a completely different story, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a judge in Ontario willing to rule against a software guy using the title software engineer.

[Luckyinfil]

Do you even know what an abbreviation is? From Webster's website: "a shortened form of a written word or phrase used in place of the whole". Link here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abbreviation

All the examples you mentioned in your post are abbreviations of the phrase "Professional Engineer", as in Prof. Eng. , Professional Eng., Prof.Engineer.

A variation of the phrase "Professional Engineer" would be "Engineer", "Software Engineer", "Principal Engineer", "Mechanical Engineer" etc. Notice how the word "Professional" is missing from these job titles, thereby making it a variation.

You just keep losing your credibility more and more with every post in this thread.

I guess people who drive trains and subways must have P.Eng too then according to you :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

[Luckyinfil]

You really need to learn to read.

"uses the title “engineer” or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering;"

From above...The judge's ruling stated that:
". . .the term System Engineer has been widely used in the IT industry and, while connoting a degree of expertise, does not indicate one is a professional engineer or the practice of engineering is being carried on. It has acquired a secondary meaning similar to Marine Engineer or Flight Engineer. This understanding is particularly clear to those familiar with the IT industry..."

You could argue that this is the ruling of an Alberta court and not Ontario, but why bother. It's fairly clear to everyone that software engineer is a widely used title in the IT industry and does not convey an impression of one practicing professional engineering. Using a title such as mechanical engineering of structuring engineer would be a completely different story, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a judge in Ontario willing to rule against a software guy using the title software engineer.

Why bother, according to him software engineer and mechanical engineers are abbreviations for Professional engineers. I guess software engineers and mechanical engineers are one and the same?

[DrXenon]

I always ask pretenders who hold themselves out as "software engineers" where their iron ring is. They are such losers. I don't go around calling myself a "circuit surgeon."

[Luckyinfil]

I always ask pretenders who hold themselves out as "software engineers" where their iron ring is. They are such losers. I don't go around calling myself a "circuit surgeon."

Iron ring != P. Eng

[DrXenon]

Iron ring != P. Eng

Iron ring >> P.Eng.

[Mark77]

I always ask pretenders who hold themselves out as "software engineers" where their iron ring is. They are such losers. I don't go around calling myself a "circuit surgeon."

"Iron what??!?!?!"

[randomscrub]

OP: If you are a new graduate or only a couple years into the workforce, I'd say it's okay to have EIT on your business card. If you are any further already in your career you might be looked down upon and it may be better to just leave it out.

[PrettyMao]

I always ask pretenders who hold themselves out as "software engineers" where their iron ring is. They are such losers. I don't go around calling myself a "circuit surgeon."

They are called "code monkeys" nothing more, nothing less.