Should Ontario nationalize the 407?

[sunnycnm5]

I have no idea the procedure or legal ramifications for such a thing, but Ontario could really use another highway. What a shortsighted mistake made in the 1990's.

Do you think Ontario should make any effort to try and take over the 407? or create a similar highway?

[Squiggles]

If everyone would get the hell off my roads we wouldn't have these problems.

[stuntman]

I have no idea the procedure or legal ramifications for such a thing, but Ontario could really use another highway. What a shortsighted mistake made in the 1990's.

Do you think Ontario should make any effort to try and take over the 407? or create a similar highway?

huh? They can't take over the 407. They have a legally binding agreement they(we) are stuck in. Thanks to some idiots that don't know how to draft a fair deal.

build another? With what money?

[mbg]

I have no idea the procedure or legal ramifications for such a thing, but Ontario could really use another highway. What a shortsighted mistake made in the 1990's.

Do you think Ontario should make any effort to try and take over the 407? or create a similar highway?

A busy, heavily-used highway that pays a lot of its own expenses?

What's wrong with that?

Our tax situation might be even worse today if we were paying to maintain that thing.

[Syne]

^ At the rates it brings in and offshores Canadian dollars, we'd be stupid not to repatriate it given the opportunity. We could cut the tolls in half and each Ontario resident would likely still get a nice, fat cheque in the mail every quarter.

[stuntman]

one other thing....I am only guessing but I am guessing that the group that leased the highway put some sort of non-compete clause in there.

[wal3145]

Nationalized the 407? The 407 runs the entire country? Since when did that happen?

[Toukolou]

^ At the rates it brings in and offshores Canadian dollars, we'd be stupid not to repatriate it given the opportunity. We could cut the tolls in half and each Ontario resident would likely still get a nice, fat cheque in the mail every quarter.

Part of the reason I enjoy driving it so much is because it's pretty much empty. I doubt the cheques would be worth the postage to mail them out.

[stuntman]

Nationalized the 407? The 407 runs the entire country? Since when did that happen?

Maybe the OP meant repatriate but could not find the words.

[antibasher]

Never. Government never do things properly and efficiently because they lack the competition for them. Nationalizing is socialism. Socialism is for noobs...who don't have productive skillz.


Mad bro?

[sunnycnm5]

Maybe the OP meant repatriate but could not find the words.

the irony is strong in this post.

[squagles]

NAFTA makes it almost impossible to nationalize anything.

[sunnycnm5]

NAFTA makes it almost impossible to nationalize anything.

thats what I thought the biggest hurdle was but after thinking about it some, I don't think any of the companies involved would trigger chapter 11 issues.

[jason9945]

Yes.

[Syne]

one other thing....I am only guessing but I am guessing that the group that leased the highway put some sort of non-compete clause in there.

They did.

[Syne]

Never. Government never do things properly and efficiently because they lack the competition for them. Nationalizing is socialism. Socialism is for noobs...who don't have productive skillz.


Mad bro?

Is spelling a productive skill?

[adeel]

as i recall, there was an article in the toronto star where someone who was part of the huge contract written up to operate the 407 (its a 100 year contract i believe), said there were a number of provisions the ontario government could take advantage of, to get a larger share of the profits of operating the 407 (or something to that effect)

i cant find the article online, but it was probably 4-6 months before the provincial election

[Rainne]

Nah.

The 407 is the efficient man/woman's highway. Going 130 km/hr consistent to work is quite nice.

[mbg]

I agree that Ontario should become a nation.

[KDSet]

Sounds like Ontarians in the GTA going East-West got screwed big time. ;)

[DearSummer]

^ At the rates it brings in and offshores Canadian dollars, we'd be stupid not to repatriate it given the opportunity. We could cut the tolls in half and each Ontario resident would likely still get a nice, fat cheque in the mail every quarter.

Right, then nobody would invest in Ontario ever again! What a genius idea. :facepalm:

[Hitman21]

What Ontario needs to do is get more drivers off the road, there are too many drivers because its too easy to get a license and these same guys are causing the accidents and scams and screw it up for everyone else

[Syne]

Right, then nobody would invest in Ontario ever again! What a genius idea. :facepalm:

Oh no, does that mean we won't be able to trade our crown land and our sovereignty for a chance to compete with India for minimum wage jobs?

Shucks!

Does that also mean that Ontarians can compete with each other for standard of living again, rather than race developing nations to the bottom?

Darnit! That sounds awful.. Please foreign investors, please keep buying our things! We are lost without you! :cry: How ever did we realize prosperity in your absence? :cry:

[DearSummer]

Oh no, does that mean we won't be able to trade our crown land and our sovereignty for a chance to compete with India for minimum wage jobs?

Shucks!

Does that also mean that Ontarians can compete with each other for standard of living again, rather than race developing nations to the bottom?

Darnit! That sounds awful.. Please foreign investors, please keep buying our things! We are lost without you! :cry: How ever did we realize prosperity in your absence? :cry:

Your lack of understanding of even basic economics amuses me, especially considering you are apparently a career student. Without foreign investment our economy would be in the gutter.

[Sauerkraut]

Ontario would have to "nationalize" it from the federal gov't, since 40% of the ownership is with the Canada Pension Plan. I'd like to be a fly on the wall at the meeting with Steve and Dalton.

Cintra is going to have bigger problems when Spain defaults. And SNC-Lavalin is too busy being raided by the RCMP to worry about their share.

[Hitman21]

Your lack of understanding of even basic economics amuses me, especially considering you are apparently a career student. Without foreign investment our economy would be in the gutter.


Just look at what this guys wants taxpayers to pay for :facepalm:

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/osap-coming-soon-need-help-picking-my-goose-1127655/9/#post14580172

[kasianman]

Hey hitman and dearsummer, what are you thoughts about the privatized 407 compared with public 407?
Do you like the privatized 407 that we currently have? Did the people receive benefit by privatization of 407 (Free Market)?

[Hitman21]

Never. Government never do things properly and efficiently because they lack the competition for them. Nationalizing is socialism. Socialism is for noobs...who don't have productive skillz.


Mad bro?

Exactly. Socialism wont work, why cant people accept that.

[antibasher]

Hey hitman and dearsummer, what are you thoughts about the privatized 407 compared with public 407?
Do you like the privatized 407 that we currently have? Did the people receive benefit by privatization of 407 (Free Market)?

People who can afford it benefit from it. Less traffic, fewer time on the road. Those who can't afford it...tough. Life favours the best of the best.

[Rainne]

So like, I was exiting the 407 onto the 410 and I see hugee lines of traffic (3 three lane congested, at 1 pm on a Saturday??). I decided go with the flow for awhile (5 mins), then managed squeeze near the front around the 403 (the two lane tunnel after 401) and I see the leader of the passing lane (a Camry) was going 90 km/hr with a good 2-3 km ahead of him/her and 30+ cars behind.

LOL

[Syne]

People who can afford it benefit from it. Less traffic, fewer time on the road. Those who can't afford it...tough. Life favours the best of the best.

I only work 20 hours a week at a do-nothing job, but I have a $60,000 SUV that I drive on the 407 because my dad made me a VP in his company. Life favours me because I'm the best of the best! I'm getting what I deserve cuz my dad says so.

Someone give me a high-five!

[kasianman]

People who can afford it benefit from it. Less traffic, fewer time on the road. Those who can't afford it...tough. Life favours the best of the best.

Best of the best meaning people with money?
People who are poor = worst of the worst?

[jackiechan511]

When the Harris PCs signed the contract with the private operators, it basically discharges the province from building any new highways that may compete with it, so literally it ties the province's hands down.

I'd say nationalize the highway. If most US highway and bridge operators are publicly own and charges much less toll rates then it proves that the public system works. I estimate that it costs approx $20+ US to travel from Buffalo to NYC on I-90. You cant do that on highway 407.

[manmanny]

I agree that Ontario should become a nation.
:lol:what?

[Sauerkraut]

I only work 20 hours a week at a do-nothing job, but I have a $60,000 SUV that I drive on the 407 because my dad made me a VP in his company. Life favours me because I'm the best of the best! I'm getting what I deserve cuz my dad says so.

Someone give me a high-five!

and he still had enough coin to treat you and the GF to Puerto Plata. Life sounds good for the fiscally underachieving crowd.

[Syne]

and he still had enough coin to treat you and the GF to Puerto Plata. Life sounds good for the fiscally underachieving crowd.

Just getting what we deserve because capitalism says so. Stop hatin' bro :)

[mbg]

When the Harris PCs signed the contract with the private operators, it basically discharges the province from building any new highways that may compete with it, so literally it ties the province's hands down.

I'd say nationalize the highway. If most US highway and bridge operators are publicly own and charges much less toll rates then it proves that the public system works. I estimate that it costs approx $20+ US to travel from Buffalo to NYC on I-90. You cant do that on highway 407.

Would you agree to operate a highway if it was possible the government would build another one right alongside it that would run without per-km fees and paid for by taxpayers?

[Sauerkraut]

Just getting what we deserve because capitalism says so. Stop hatin' bro :)

Who's hating? I just hope you and the other Gen X'rs earn enough income to fund my OAS payments

[r1lee]

How much is it going to cost me to get from east to west? At $.15/km... I might have to get off at Mississauga rd. the take local.

[Syne]

Who's hating? I just hope you and the other Gen X'rs earn enough income to fund my OAS payments

I'm Gen Y :mad:

[CDNPatriot]

Thanks to the Conservative Party who decided to make an iron clad deal to a European company. Essentially they sold the right to tax Ontarians for peanuts. They gained for one year a the cost of eternity.

Like with AVRO. US and France were lined up to buy orders. Conservative government scrapped it and destroyed all the planes and buried them in Lake Ontario. Gave up a trillion dollar industry. Way to go!


I have no idea the procedure or legal ramifications for such a thing, but Ontario could really use another highway. What a shortsighted mistake made in the 1990's.

Do you think Ontario should make any effort to try and take over the 407? or create a similar highway?

[CDNPatriot]

Time to vote for governments that don't cover medical coverage for those over 60. Why help them? If they die young the government can save money on their pensions.

Oh gawd, now I sound like dearsummerhitman.


Who's hating? I just hope you and the other Gen X'rs earn enough income to fund my OAS payments

[stuntman]

Outside of this thread:
Is there an opportunity to buy the 407 back? No.
Is there even any political talk about building another highway? No.
Is competition against the 407 allowed per the contract? No.


So this thread is a just a big whine fest, right?

[Hitman21]

Time to vote for governments that don't cover medical coverage for those over 60. Why help them? If they die young the government can save money on their pensions.

Oh gawd, now I sound like dearsummerhitman.

When did I ever say that? :facepalm:

[stuntman]

When did I ever say that? :facepalm:

He did not say you said that he said he sounded like you.:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facep alm::facepalm:

[Hitman21]

He did not say you said that he said he sounded like you.:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facep alm::facepalm:

That doesn't sound like me at all though :facepalm:

[CDNPatriot]

where there is hitmandearsummer, there is a whinefest it seems.


Outside of this thread:
Is there an opportunity to buy the 407 back? No.
Is there even any political talk about building another highway? No.
Is competition against the 407 allowed per the contract? No.


So this thread is a just a big whine fest, right?

[Hitman21]

where there is hitmandearsummer, there is a whinefest it seems.

:facepalm:

[CDNPatriot]

:facepalm:

Very insightful hitman.

[Hitman21]

Very insightful hitman.

Thank you:D

[CDNPatriot]

The problem is that the tax payer (who Harris claimed he respected) paid to build that highway. But then, Harris turned around and made a deal that included a 99-year lease agreement, unlimited control over the highway and its tolls and a restriction under which the government may not build any nearby freeways which might potentially compete with 407 ETR. So the tax payer paid to build it. And then pays to use it. Getting dinged twice. The biggest rip off in Ontario Provincial political history.

Legally you can't even probably build a subway beside it.

What a mess!

[CDNPatriot]

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Intoll-says-407-ETRs-revenue-up-25-to-C560m-profit-2D8CN?OpenDocument

In 2008 it made a half a billion dollars. Harris sold out tax payers money for 99 years! In today's dollars he sold 60 billion dollars worth of revenues for peanuts.

No wonder we are trying to nickel and dime teachers so that we can save 10 million dollars on the budget. If we Harris didn't sell it we'd be well off.

[Nook]

Hopefully Spain's economy dies and they all suffer so that us Ontarians can drive in peace.

[gh05t]

I'm sure at least one Canadian benefited from the deal.

Harris and possibly Eves must have some nice looking Swiss/Offshore Bank accounts

[Jon Lai]

The problem is that the tax payer (who Harris claimed he respected) paid to build that highway. But then, Harris turned around and made a deal that included a 99-year lease agreement, unlimited control over the highway and its tolls and a restriction under which the government may not build any nearby freeways which might potentially compete with 407 ETR. So the tax payer paid to build it. And then pays to use it. Getting dinged twice. The biggest rip off in Ontario Provincial political history.

Legally you can't even probably build a subway beside it.

What a mess!

Actually AFAIK the contract reserved the permission to build an LRT in the 407's right of way. Not sure of the specific stipulations or whether it's only LRTs, and if subways were to be permitted as well, though with the speed of development here, I don't know if we'll warrant a subway along the 407 even if it's 99 86 years in the future.

[CDNPatriot]

Maybe, but when I look at archived pictures of farms off the corner of Broadview and Danforth a hundred years ago I'm not sure what Toronto will look like that far in the future. But I'm sure Harris and Eves know what Toronto will look like 90 years from now and would not impede the development of a subway or other transportation system to be built if needed.


Actually AFAIK the contract reserved the permission to build an LRT in the 407's right of way. Not sure of the specific stipulations or whether it's only LRTs, and if subways were to be permitted as well, though with the speed of development here, I don't know if we'll warrant a subway along the 407 even if it's 99 86 years in the future.

[NorthYorker]

Thanks to some idiots that don't know how to draft a fair deal.Do not insult a lot of very clever folks, who found very rewarding employment in SNC Lavalin and other parent companies of the consortium not long after they sold 407 to it for a song and included the province's obligation to act as muscle for a private business into the said agreement.

[anyasok]

The problem is that the tax payer (who Harris claimed he respected) paid to build that highway. But then, Harris turned around and made a deal that included a 99-year lease agreement, unlimited control over the highway and its tolls and a restriction under which the government may not build any nearby freeways which might potentially compete with 407 ETR. So the tax payer paid to build it. And then pays to use it. Getting dinged twice. The biggest rip off in Ontario Provincial political history.

Legally you can't even probably build a subway beside it.

What a mess!
That
Plus, you can't renew squat until you pay your outstanding toll fees.

That's what corrupt governments do that don't know anything about anything

[Mattones]

NOPE! I like the 407 the way it is! If they 'nationalized' it the highway would end up like the 401, QEW NASTY! The 407 is great!

[Ziggy007]

I have no idea the procedure or legal ramifications for such a thing, but Ontario could really use another highway. What a shortsighted mistake made in the 1990's.

Do you think Ontario should make any effort to try and take over the 407? or create a similar highway?

The beauty of the deal they signed is that they aren't allowed to even build any competing highways, assuming we weren't already in debt anyway...

[laptop-tech]

What I wish is that the rates were fair. I've been traveling to Florida recently and the toll roads are everywhere, but they cost far less to use when compared to the 407. Like you drive for 1 hour and the cost is $1.75.

[CDNPatriot]

Yep, and the 1 percent like it too!


NOPE! I like the 407 the way it is! If they 'nationalized' it the highway would end up like the 401, QEW NASTY! The 407 is great!

[anyasok]

What I wish is that the rates were fair. I've been traveling to Florida recently and the toll roads are everywhere, but they cost far less to use when compared to the 407. Like you drive for 1 hour and the cost is $1.75.
I agree. Last time I went there it's indeed so. 407 tolls are exorbitant in comparison.

[NorthYorker]

407 tolls are exorbitant in comparison.It cost something like $6 to take I-90 from Buffalo to Syracuse (200 km), which works into 3 cents per km, give or take. 407 costs 5-6 times as much.

[Needinghelp]

407 is too expensive, but it's saved so much time in the rush hour commutes sometimes when I couldn't carpool in the HOV lanes on a particular day. Got a transponder and the cost is covered by my work anyway since I mainly use the 407 to goto conferences, etc. But once in a while I use it during the rush hour commute. I like going 140-150km.

But I wish the costs to use it came down a notch.

[Tornado F2]

How can Ontario, a province, "nationalize" anything? :razz:

[BornRuff]

The beauty of the deal they signed is that they aren't allowed to even build any competing highways, assuming we weren't already in debt anyway...

The deal would not have really made sense otherwise, but ya, it really bones us now. They really should have thought this one through more.

[BornRuff]

A busy, heavily-used highway that pays a lot of its own expenses?

What's wrong with that?

Our tax situation might be even worse today if we were paying to maintain that thing.

The problem is that they sold exclusive rights to operate a highway through a very large corridor of the GTA, and now we are extremely limited in our options to combat our traffic problems.

The 407 was not conceived to be a luxury highway for those who want to pay extra to avoid traffic, it was conceived to serve the growing population in the surrounding area and take some pressure off of the 401. It was supposed to have reasonable tolls just long enough to pay off the cost of building the highway.

Now you have this highway that costs too much for many people to use, so it really doesn't accomplish it's original goal very well. The government now has to undertake billions in projects to increase the capacity of the 401, more than they would if the 407 was available to more drivers.

[Rainne]

The problem is that they sold exclusive rights to operate a highway through a very large corridor of the GTA, and now we are extremely limited in our options to combat our traffic problems.

The 407 was not conceived to be a luxury highway for those who want to pay extra to avoid traffic, it was conceived to serve the growing population in the surrounding area and take some pressure off of the 401. It was supposed to have reasonable tolls just long enough to pay off the cost of building the highway.

Now you have this highway that costs too much for many people to use, so it really doesn't accomplish it's original goal very well. The government now has to undertake billions in projects to increase the capacity of the 401, more than they would if the 407 was available to more drivers.

^ They knew exactly what they were doing when they sold it.

[Jon Lai]

Not to mention, it was originally only going to be a tolled highway for 35 years, and only to recoup the costs of building it. If anything that's one thing Rae did right.

[stealth]

Not to mention, it was originally only going to be a tolled highway for 35 years, and only to recoup the costs of building it. If anything that's one thing Rae did right.

I personally think it was just positioned that way to sell it to Ontarians. No way do they ever stop tolling. its a cash cow, and once you get public union workers managing it, you'll never be able to get them out of the picture.

[Rainne]

I personally think it was just positioned that way to sell it to Ontarians. No way do they ever stop tolling. its a cash cow, and once you get public union workers managing it, you'll never be able to get them out of the picture.

Imagine if it was under government/public union management? They'd find a way to mess it up somehow :facepalm:

The 407 is like, the epitome of an efficient cash cow. Private sector at its finest. The owners are happy ($$$) and the customers are happy (time is more valuable than $ for some people).

[BornRuff]

^ They knew exactly what they were doing when they sold it.

When they sold it they were trying to get cash to balance the budget. Their reasons for building it in the first place were very different.

[BornRuff]

Imagine if it was under government/public union management? They'd find a way to mess it up somehow :facepalm:

The 407 is like, the epitome of an efficient cash cow. Private sector at its finest. The owners are happy ($$$) and the customers are happy (time is more valuable than $ for some people).

Anything that is a cash cow really isn't efficient in the economic sense. If the firm is able to obtain huge economic rents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent), there is an inefficiency at play.

The government spent over 100 billion dollars acquiring the land that the highway sits on, and they sold the rights for 99 years for only 3.1 billion. This asset that was supposed to help solve major traffic issues is now only able to be used by a relatively small group of people. The group they sold the highway to makes a killing, while Ontario gets a very minimal return on the huge investment they made in building the highway(some traffic is diverted from the 401, but nowhere near as much as was intended). The province now has to find ways to solve the same problem that the 407 was supposed to solve in the first place, but they are severely limited by the conditions of that contract. Continued expansion of the 401 is expensive and not as effective. Furthermore, they have to act as the collection agency for the 407!

Judging major public works projects based on how much money they make for private companies is asinine. We made the investment to solve a public problem, not make money for investors. You have to look at how well it solves the problem that it set out to solve.

[Tornado F2]

Anything that is a cash cow really isn't efficient in the economic sense. If the firm is able to obtain huge economic rents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent), there is an inefficiency at play.

The government spent over 100 billion dollars acquiring the land that the highway sits on, and they sold the rights for 99 years for only 3.1 billion. This asset that was supposed to help solve major traffic issues is now only able to be used by a relatively small group of people. The group they sold the highway to makes a killing, while Ontario gets a very minimal return on the huge investment they made in building the highway(some traffic is diverted from the 401, but nowhere near as much as was intended). The province now has to find ways to solve the same problem that the 407 was supposed to solve in the first place, but they are severely limited by the conditions of that contract. Continued expansion of the 401 is expensive and not as effective. Furthermore, they have to act as the collection agency for the 407!

Judging major public works projects based on how much money they make for private companies is asinine. We made the investment to solve a public problem, not make money for investors. You have to look at how well it solves the problem that it set out to solve.

I HIGHLY doubt that. What did they do, build it through the centre of Manhattan?

Where did you get that figure from? The source needs a good solid facepalming.

[BornRuff]

I HIGHLY doubt that. What did they do, build it through the centre of Manhattan?

Where did you get that figure from? The source needs a good solid facepalming.

Former PC MPP Douglas Rollins.

http://hansardindex.ontla.on.ca/hansardeissue/36-2/l047.htm

[Rainne]

Anything that is a cash cow really isn't efficient in the economic sense. If the firm is able to obtain huge economic rents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent), there is an inefficiency at play.

The government spent over 100 billion dollars acquiring the land that the highway sits on, and they sold the rights for 99 years for only 3.1 billion. This asset that was supposed to help solve major traffic issues is now only able to be used by a relatively small group of people. The group they sold the highway to makes a killing, while Ontario gets a very minimal return on the huge investment they made in building the highway(some traffic is diverted from the 401, but nowhere near as much as was intended). The province now has to find ways to solve the same problem that the 407 was supposed to solve in the first place, but they are severely limited by the conditions of that contract. Continued expansion of the 401 is expensive and not as effective. Furthermore, they have to act as the collection agency for the 407!

Judging major public works projects based on how much money they make for private companies is asinine. We made the investment to solve a public problem, not make money for investors. You have to look at how well it solves the problem that it set out to solve.

Shouldn't have sold it then -_- What were they thinking??

[CDNPatriot]

Shouldn't have sold it then -_- What were they thinking??

They had the province of Ontario convinced we were about to go bankrupt and had to have a firesale on everything.

[BornRuff]

Shouldn't have sold it then -_- What were they thinking??


They had the province of Ontario convinced we were about to go bankrupt and had to have a firesale on everything.

It was just "common sense" according to them.

Looking back now it is obvious that the long term costs to Ontario citizens is huge compared to the short term gains they got out of the sale.

[stuntman]

It was just "common sense" according to them.

Looking back now it is obvious that the long term costs to Ontario citizens is huge compared to the short term gains they got out of the sale.

I remember that this deal was pushed through quietly and immediately condemned as stupidity by many. Hindsight was not required.

[BornRuff]

I remember that this deal was pushed through quietly and immediately condemned as stupidity by many. Hindsight was not required.

Haha, I was trying to be a bit diplomatic, but yes, I would agree that it should have been clear from conception that this was a poor deal for Ontario.

[webdoctors]

The highway cost about $1.6 B according to wiki "The highway opened in 1997,[9] and highway cost roughly $1.6 billion. When it was later leased, one opposition MPP claimed that Ontario had spent $100 billion since the early 1970s acquiring the land that it sits on.[10]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407

When the highway first opened it was free and I drove on it for a bit and didn't understand why anyone would use it. Highway 7 was parallel to it and you could go just as fast during non-rush hour (this was before they doubled the number of traffic lights) between Markham and Richmondhill.

Also if you wanted to travel from one side of Toronto to the other, the 407 was useless since it was too far north.

It was only good for ppl that live far north (North of Steeles or 7 and not close to 400 or 404 roads) or trucks travelling through Toronto but not into it.

What R U folks whining about? It was a gamble, the companies could've gone bankrupt on the deal if no one used it. They used their own money to expand it. If the gov bought it and made it free, it would be just as crowded as the 401 and again be useless. If they only charged 10 cents to use it, it would be jammed and folks would just use 401 which is free.

[Syne]

What R U folks whining about? It was a gamble, the companies could've gone bankrupt on the deal if no one used it. They used their own money to expand it. If the gov bought it and made it free, it would be just as crowded as the 401 and again be useless. If they only charged 10 cents to use it, it would be jammed and folks would just use 401 which is free.

I'm pretty sure that Toronto traffic is zero-sum with respect to how many routes are available. If one is used more, one will necessarily be used less. Right now, the 407 is a luxury option for a few people, whereas with heavier traffic, congestion would be reduced on the 401 and the net benefit for all commuters would be greater.

Just saying.

[LostInTruth]

407 is expensive as hell, but I take it.

[BornRuff]

The highway cost about $1.6 B according to wiki "The highway opened in 1997,[9] and highway cost roughly $1.6 billion. When it was later leased, one opposition MPP claimed that Ontario had spent $100 billion since the early 1970s acquiring the land that it sits on.[10]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407

1.6 billion was the construction cost. They acquired the land over decades before that.

The MP who provided that number was not an opposition MP, he was a PC, part of the government.


When the highway first opened it was free and I drove on it for a bit and didn't understand why anyone would use it. Highway 7 was parallel to it and you could go just as fast during non-rush hour (this was before they doubled the number of traffic lights) between Markham and Richmondhill.

Also if you wanted to travel from one side of Toronto to the other, the 407 was useless since it was too far north.

It was only good for ppl that live far north (North of Steeles or 7 and not close to 400 or 404 roads) or trucks travelling through Toronto but not into it.

What R U folks whining about? It was a gamble, the companies could've gone bankrupt on the deal if no one used it. They used their own money to expand it. If the gov bought it and made it free, it would be just as crowded as the 401 and again be useless. If they only charged 10 cents to use it, it would be jammed and folks would just use 401 which is free.

407 is a much higher capacity roadway than highway 7.

If the highway was used by lots of people, those who used it would be taken away from the other routes, such as highway 7 or the 401, like it was originally supposed to. Having the 407 fully utilized would be a way bigger help to traffic flow than expanding the 401 to more lanes.

We don't need a premium highway with less traffic for those who can afford to pay for it. We do need to improve traffic flow though.

[DearSummer]

How many people here know that the majority of the 407 is owned by Canadian entities? The CPPIB and SNC-Lavalin own over 50% of the highway.

Best to look up the facts before you put your foot in your mouth as many posters here have.

[NorthYorker]

People who can afford it benefit from it. Less traffic, fewer time on the road. Those who can't afford it...tough. Life favours the best of the best.That's libertarians in a nutshell: let us collect taxes from everyone so affluent can consume it...

[BornRuff]

How many people here know that the majority of the 407 is owned by Canadian entities? The CPPIB and SNC-Lavalin own over 50% of the highway.

Best to look up the facts before you put your foot in your mouth as many posters here have.

Why does the nationality of the private companies that own the highway matter? How does that affect any of the statements said here?

BTW, while you are correct that the ownership stakes of the CPPIB(40%) and SNC(~17%) do add up to more than half of the company, the largest shareholder is a Spanish firm called Cintra Infraestructuras S.A.(~43%).

http://www.407etr.com/about/investors.html

[flashy_mcflash]

How many people here know that the majority of the 407 is owned by Canadian entities? The CPPIB and SNC-Lavalin own over 50% of the highway.

Best to look up the facts before you put your foot in your mouth as many posters here have.

I don't know about you, but I'm sure glad a fine, upstanding company like SNC Lavalin has the reins.

[DearSummer]

Why does the nationality of the private companies that own the highway matter? How does that affect any of the statements said here?

BTW, while you are correct that the ownership stakes of the CPPIB(40%) and SNC(~17%) do add up to more than half of the company, the largest shareholder is a Spanish firm called Cintra Infraestructuras S.A.(~43%).

http://www.407etr.com/about/investors.html

You think people would support "nationalizing" (aka stealing) an asset owned by the CPPIB and a massive Canadian company?

[flashy_mcflash]

You think people would support "nationalizing" (aka stealing) an asset owned by the CPPIB and a massive Canadian company?

Votes come cheap. If you told people "hey pay less to drive on this road" you could get them to do anything you want. Lots of people elected Rob Ford because he promised to save them sixty bucks on the VRT and a nickel on a plastic bag.

[gostinger]

If everyone would get the hell off my roads we wouldn't have these problems.

+1

I can drive....we who can drive ask this simple question of others ..... WTF was that move!?

[BornRuff]

You think people would support "nationalizing" (aka stealing) an asset owned by the CPPIB and a massive Canadian company?

Actually just nationalizing the 407 will never happen.

It doesn't matter if the owners are Canadian or Spanish, it is bad for business.

The only way the government could get it back now is to buy it back, which will be incredibly expensive for our cash strapped government. It is pretty much just a really ****** deal that we will be living with for a long time.

[KDSet]

Sad/ironic how it's getting bought back by the public (CPP).

[manmanny]

"upstanding company like SNC Lavalin" my !@#.

"RCMP investigators executed a search warrant Friday at the Montreal headquarters of engineering giant SNC-Lavalin, which has been probing millions of dollars of mysterious payments."

[NorthYorker]

"upstanding company like SNC Lavalin" my !@#.I always thought that <sarcasm> tags are redundant. You proved me wrong :)

[DearSummer]

Actually just nationalizing the 407 will never happen.

It doesn't matter if the owners are Canadian or Spanish, it is bad for business.

That's what I've been saying...Syne and others have said it should be nationalized.


The only way the government could get it back now is to buy it back, which will be incredibly expensive for our cash strapped government. It is pretty much just a really ****** deal that we will be living with for a long time.

Right, so the answer is Ontario shouldn't nationalize it which other posts have disagreed with.

[flashy_mcflash]

"upstanding company like SNC Lavalin" my !@#.

"RCMP investigators executed a search warrant Friday at the Montreal headquarters of engineering giant SNC-Lavalin, which has been probing millions of dollars of mysterious payments."

He gets it, folks! He really gets it!


That's what I've been saying...Syne and others have said it should be nationalized.


Do you understand the difference between 'should' and 'could'?

[BornRuff]

That's what I've been saying...Syne and others have said it should be nationalized.



Right, so the answer is Ontario shouldn't nationalize it which other posts have disagreed with.

The word "nationalize" doesn't even really work in this sense.

Not everyone in this thread is talking about just taking the 407 for free. There are numerous options they could pursue if they really did want to bring it back into public ownership.