Pressure builds in Brampton to pass basement suite bylaw

[cheapmeister]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1163791--pressure-builds-in-brampton-to-pass-basement-suite-bylaw


Brampton residents are riled up over an issue that has divided the city along cultural lines, with immigrant groups demanding that basement apartments be legalized while others remain steadfastly opposed.

“Immigrants want the basement apartments; they need them,” says Councillor Vicky Dhillon. “There’s intolerance from some people.”

The Ontario government has passed legislation that came into effect the beginning of the year and required municipalities to legalize basement apartments. It was seen as a way to help cut waiting lists for affordable housing but many people in Brampton expressed concern that driveways, front lawns and residential streets would be overrun with cars, and garbage would be piled up along the sides of homes.

Councillor Grant Gibson, chair of the city’s bylaw committee, says residents are also worried about overcrowding at schools and safety issues, specifically fire code violations.

Others question whether property tax formulas could be adjusted to account for additional tenants using municipal services.

While Gibson acknowledges it’s a “huge issue in Brampton,” he backs away from any suggestion that it has divided the city’s immigrant communities from those who have lived there for decades.

Rajinder Saini thinks otherwise.

“It’s as if the city doesn’t want certain people here,” says the head of the Parvasi Media Group and host of a popular Punjabi radio show in Brampton.

But Saini agrees with Gibson about the enormity of the issue. “Most newcomers can’t afford new houses or high rents.”

Major Singh, who has advocated for legal basement apartments for more than 15 years, says the demand goes beyond Brampton’s immigrant groups. “Seniors who need affordable housing or the extra income, and single-parent families, are desperate.”

Peel Region is experiencing a crisis in affordable housing, with a waiting list of more than 21 years.

Singh says it’s also in keeping with the province’s mandate for intensification and managed growth across southern Ontario.

“I started in a basement apartment more than 20 years ago, then I moved up. It’s the natural progression for immigrants,” he said.

Gibson agrees, but questions how the city might guarantee safety standards such as proper fire exits and ventilation for cooking appliances.

Dhillon says there are upwards of 30,000 illegal basement apartments in Brampton, which pose a bigger safety risk because they are unregulated.

The province’s legislation states municipalities can tailor their legal basement bylaws to suit the community.

Toronto already has a bylaw that allows basement apartments, while Vaughan, Mississauga and others are quickly moving toward compliance.

“It’s a safety issue for a lot of people in Brampton,” Gibson says. “I hope the report we get next week will address a lot of these issues. Then we’re going to start a series of public consultations into the summer. We want to inform the public, then hear from them and act. We have to move forward with this.”


Do you support basement apartments becoming legal? Currently it is only legal if the apartment was in existence before a certain year, like 1995 or something. Do they have legal basement apartments in Markham, or Oakville? How is it working out?

[MrKap]

I've lived in a basement apartment in parkdale for a few years. I hated it and I resented by roommate for convincing me it was better than the place I had chosen.

Makes no difference to me, but I could never live in a basement apartment ever again. I can't be the only one to have pipes burst, or feel like I was living underground in a cave, ect...

[_Allan_]

The problem is this: foreign landlords think laws don't apply to them, and keep their u.its in disrepair. Of the 6 basements I have rented in Toronto, 4 were foreigner owned. Those were the 4 units that didn't have legal fire separation, didn't have proper windows, and the ones that the landlords were at the door at 12:01am demanding rent, but refusing to repair problems.
I have lived in 2 units that were owned by white people. The first unit was immaculate and fully legal - they showed the City of TO document approving the unit. The second white owned unit was great too ... he replaced the kitchen cabinets, and also showed the City approvals for the unit, with him, if I was going to be late or short rent, he gave me until the end of the month ... usually I got it to him by the 10th. He would drive me places in a pinch, he brought food down, and he was just an all around great guy.

[renoldman]

Do you support basement apartments becoming legal? Currently it is only legal if the apartment was in existence before a certain year, like 1995 or something. Do they have legal basement apartments in Markham, or Oakville? How is it working out?

You make it sound like the city of Toronto just says basment apartments are legal.

As mentioned there are ways to have a legal basement, such as having a seperate entrance, etc.

By saying that those without seperate entrances are not legal, they are really saying that there should be a seperate entrance (and other things) for safety.

IOW, these things needed to have a legal basement apartment are for the tenant's safety.

More than likely they will let them become legal if they meet certain criteria. Just like in Toronto.

[_Allan_]

Toronto's Guide to Legal 2nd Units. (http://www.secondsuites.info/Homeowners_Guide.pdf)

[Piro21]

My parents moved to Canada and lived in a cheap city (suburban Hamilton) instead of thinking they'd move in right next to the biggest, most expensive place in the country. I don't see why the people in Brampton 'need' to live in basement apartments instead of doing the same.

These things should be outlawed unless they can pass strict compliance requirements and be subject to random inspections. A better system of tenant protection would need to be enacted as well, as most of these private landlords are shady as hell, and will do illegal things like demanding security deposits, invading privacy, etc.

[hdave]

Brampton should NOT do this.
Is it already loaded with Indian people looking for houses only with a basement that can be built into an apartment easily for the purposes of renting it out. (Trust me, I know for a FACT)
Causes much more wear and tear on the houses, more traffic communities are filled with twice as many people as they were originally designed to, infrastructure cant handle it.. etc..

[elmst200]

how did you know those owners are foreigners, not Canadian citizens/PRs?

When I rented, I didn't ask the landlord to show me their passports/immigrantion papers. How could you do that?


The problem is this: foreign landlords think laws don't apply to them, and keep their u.its in disrepair. Of the 6 basements I have rented in Toronto, 4 were foreigner owned. Those were the 4 units that didn't have legal fire separation, didn't have proper windows, and the ones that the landlords were at the door at 12:01am demanding rent, but refusing to repair problems.

[KDSet]

They banned basement apartments in my part of Montreal a few years ago, because of fire safety issues (i.e. fire exit requirement). Which, quite frankly, is the only valid complaint. Everything else is easily resolvable whiny neighbour complaints.

[elmst200]

Toronto could legalize basement apartments, why not Brampton. Toronto has much more basement apartments than Brampton, not just absolute number, but the % of houses that have basement apartment.


Brampton should NOT do this.
Is it already loaded with Indian people looking for houses only with a basement that can be built into an apartment easily for the purposes of renting it out. (Trust me, I know for a FACT)
Causes much more wear and tear on the houses, more traffic communities are filled with twice as many people as they were originally designed to, infrastructure cant handle it.. etc..

[cwb27]

Ok, so they pass this and then when people die because the basement apartment didn't meet fire code...

[45ED]

Ok, so they pass this and then when people die because the basement apartment didn't meet fire code...

That's the thing. Apartment basements/rooms already exist in Brampton like they do in Toronto - if only illegally. They can't be stopped so the guy in the article made a point that it's better to get them into the fold legally and set forth standards/guidelines rather than let them continue to fly under the radar and get toasted when there is a fire because, among other things, it didn't meet fire code.

I wonder if another concern the article expressed by locals - streets over-run by cars - couldn't be addressed somehow with on-street parking permit requirements/limits.

[Kris81]

What's wrong with basement apartments?

[sedated_xtc]

What's wrong with basement apartments?

:facepalm:


That's the thing. Apartment basements/rooms already exist in Brampton like they do in Toronto - if only illegally. They can't be stopped so the guy in the article made a point that it's better to get them into the fold legally and set forth standards/guidelines rather than let them continue to fly under the radar and get toasted when there is a fire because, among other things, it didn't meet fire code.

I wonder if another concern the article expressed by locals - streets over-run by cars - couldn't be addressed somehow with on-street parking permit requirements/limits.


Brampton should NOT do this.
Is it already loaded with Indian people looking for houses only with a basement that can be built into an apartment easily for the purposes of renting it out. (Trust me, I know for a FACT)
Causes much more wear and tear on the houses, more traffic communities are filled with twice as many people as they were originally designed to, infrastructure cant handle it.. etc..

[danfromwaterloo]

Having lived in Brampton, I think the biggest problem with basement apartments is that they overwhelm the surrounding infrastructure.

Most houses in Brampton are estimated to support four to five people. There's, say, 10,000 houses in a given area. That means that the city develops roads, community centres, transit, schooling, hospitals and libraries to support 50,000 people. Now, when a sizeable amount of houses - say 10% - are now supporting a dozen people, that's an extra 7000 people using up the infrastructure. That's a very large reason why Brampton always feels so congested and busy. There's now double the number of parked cars, which often spills out onto roads, making some residential areas virtual parking lots. Also, the class of the area is also changing. By taking a large house, which is traditionally an upper-middle to upper class area, and subdividing it into a rooming house, areas that were supposed to be really nice have turned into ghettos. Springdale, anyone?

I dare anybody to live in Brampton for a little while and tell me that everything I've said isn't bang on. The three problems Brampton has is: a virtual monoculturalism, the refusal of the community as a whole to adopt much Canadian culture, and population density.

[r1lee]

Brampton should NOT do this.
Is it already loaded with Indian people looking for houses only with a basement that can be built into an apartment easily for the purposes of renting it out. (Trust me, I know for a FACT)
Causes much more wear and tear on the houses, more traffic communities are filled with twice as many people as they were originally designed to, infrastructure cant handle it.. etc..

The thing is, it's already being done illegally. So you're not currently going to stop it. Mind you for the people who are ethically holding out until it does become legal, i don't see that being many more then the current crop.

I'm also one to let people do what they want to their neighbourhoods. If they want to devalue their properties and live like how it's back home, then more power to them. There will be a breaking point that no one wants to move into those types of neighbourhoods unless they are new immigrants and probably would want to get the Hell out of their asap.

[elmst200]

These things are happending in Markham/Richmond Hill too.


The three problems Brampton has is: a virtual monoculturalism, the refusal of the community as a whole to adopt much Canadian culture, and population density.

[CatDog]

The thing is, it's already being done illegally. So you're not currently going to stop it. Mind you for the people who are ethically holding out until it does become legal, i don't see that being many more then the current crop.

I'm also one to let people do what they want to their neighbourhoods. If they want to devalue their properties and live like how it's back home, then more power to them. There will be a breaking point that no one wants to move into those types of neighbourhoods unless they are new immigrants and probably would want to get the Hell out of their asap.

Of course it can be stopped. I went through this dance with my neighbour when he moved in (surprise surprise guess who?) and built a basement entrance. After a few long months, it was ultimately reversed. He had to then get a crew to destroy and seal it. Good.

I usually agree with your posts.. but what you're saying is ridiculous. You support ethnic ghettos? You want the government to officially endorse ethnic ghettos so immigrants have access to lower housing costs? How about moving somewhere with lower values instead of destroying the existing property values.

[sedated_xtc]

**********************

...Who's coming off sounding like the racist now...?

[r1lee]

Of course it can be stopped. I went through this dance with my neighbour when he moved in (surprise surprise guess who?) and built a basement entrance. After a few long months, it was ultimately reversed. He had to then get a crew to destroy and seal it. Good.

I usually agree with your posts.. but what you're saying is ridiculous. You support ethnic ghettos? You want the government to officially endorse ethnic ghettos so immigrants have access to lower housing costs? How about moving somewhere with lower values instead of destroying the existing property values.

No it can't be stopped, maybe in your case it was obvious. But what if he didn't create that entrance? People walk through the garage door/front door as normally but head downstairs to the basement? This is more of what I'm referring to.

yes, i do agree my post was a little "i don't give a rat's a$$" about what others do. I live in a neighbourhood that doesn't have these issues (we have our own) so I'm on the total opposite side of the spectrum until it does happen.

[Piro21]

Of course it can be stopped. I went through this dance with my neighbour when he moved in (surprise surprise guess who?) and built a basement entrance. After a few long months, it was ultimately reversed. He had to then get a crew to destroy and seal it. Good.

I usually agree with your posts.. but what you're saying is ridiculous. You support ethnic ghettos? You want the government to officially endorse ethnic ghettos so immigrants have access to lower housing costs? How about moving somewhere with lower values instead of destroying the existing property values.

Exactly. The other cities in Canada are fine for new immigrants. My family started out in Hamilton, others I know started in the Montreal or Ottawa suburbs, and they've done great for themselves. If you're willing to move to one of the lower populated provinces you can do even better. Despite what the housing advocate in the OP says, there is no NEED for immigrants to live in someone's basement. It opens them to abuse from the landowner.

Aside from the usual issues, this practice contributes heavily to the housing bubble. People overextend themselves buying houses for inflated prices because they figure they can just rent out the basement as an illegal apartment to someone while failing to meet the responsibilities expected from a landlord.

[manmanny]

Having lived in Brampton, I think the biggest problem with basement apartments is that they overwhelm the surrounding infrastructure.

Most houses in Brampton are estimated to support four to five people. There's, say, 10,000 houses in a given area. That means that the city develops roads, community centres, transit, schooling, hospitals and libraries to support 50,000 people. Now, when a sizeable amount of houses - say 10% - are now supporting a dozen people, that's an extra 7000 people using up the infrastructure. That's a very large reason why Brampton always feels so congested and busy. There's now double the number of parked cars, which often spills out onto roads, making some residential areas virtual parking lots. Also, the class of the area is also changing. By taking a large house, which is traditionally an upper-middle to upper class area, and subdividing it into a rooming house, areas that were supposed to be really nice have turned into ghettos. Springdale, anyone?

I dare anybody to live in Brampton for a little while and tell me that everything I've said isn't bang on. The three problems Brampton has is: a virtual monoculturalism, the refusal of the community as a whole to adopt much Canadian culture, and population density.


well said.

Question is why municipality is not targeting for these illegal apartments? Are they afraid if they stop these illegal apartment they might lose the Votes? I am against any illegal basement apartments or living many people in one house than allowed. Don't make things legal just because its being done already (illegally).

[Piro21]

******************

It's not just white people getting pissed off by this, broseph.

[CatDog]

Question is why municipality is not targeting for these illegal apartments? Are they afraid if they stop these illegal apartment they might lose the Votes? I am against any illegal basement apartments or living many people in one house than allowed. Don't make things legal just because its being done already (illegally).

Seriously. It's pathetic how little Mississauga does (NOTHING) unless someone raises a shitstorm.

[manmanny]

It's not just white people getting pissed off by this, broseph.

Its not about white or brown or colour issue. Its the well maintained neighborhood and property values, stress on other things to maintain such.
Katchemash seems radical or he is just trolling when he posts rants against whites.

[hdave]

Having lived in Brampton, I think the biggest problem with basement apartments is that they overwhelm the surrounding infrastructure.

Most houses in Brampton are estimated to support four to five people. There's, say, 10,000 houses in a given area. That means that the city develops roads, community centres, transit, schooling, hospitals and libraries to support 50,000 people. Now, when a sizeable amount of houses - say 10% - are now supporting a dozen people, that's an extra 7000 people using up the infrastructure. That's a very large reason why Brampton always feels so congested and busy. There's now double the number of parked cars, which often spills out onto roads, making some residential areas virtual parking lots. Also, the class of the area is also changing. By taking a large house, which is traditionally an upper-middle to upper class area, and subdividing it into a rooming house, areas that were supposed to be really nice have turned into ghettos. Springdale, anyone?

I dare anybody to live in Brampton for a little while and tell me that everything I've said isn't bang on. The three problems Brampton has is: a virtual monoculturalism, the refusal of the community as a whole to adopt much Canadian culture, and population density.

+1
I have lots of friends in Brampton, and I have to agree with you.
I hate it there.



God forbid if anything pisses off WHITE people. A bunch of racists came up with this law and it should be struck down. These white neighbours need to get on the train and flee to other white neighbourhoods of their kind.

Get out of this thread, no one is being racist, just pointing out facts.

[45ED]

...Who's coming off sounding like the racist now...?

He's been like that for awhile, fwiw. And by "awhile", I mean, a goodly portion of his posts in here and other threads.

Which is to say -- don't mind him.

[Siskie]

Rajinder Saini thinks otherwise.

“It’s as if the city doesn’t want certain people here,” says the head of the Parvasi Media Group and host of a popular Punjabi radio show in Brampton.

But Saini agrees with Gibson about the enormity of the issue. “Most newcomers can’t afford new houses or high rents.”

I don't understand why they need to live in Brampton. Why can't they live somewhere else? Georgetown is a little further west but might be more affordable as its further from Toronto.

Oshawa and Windsor seem to have some of the most affordable properties. Why not move there?

[CatDog]

Seriously. It's pathetic how little Mississauga does (NOTHING) unless someone raises a shitstorm.


No it can't be stopped, maybe in your case it was obvious. But what if he didn't create that entrance? People walk through the garage door/front door as normally but head downstairs to the basement? This is more of what I'm referring to.

It can be stopped, and we don't even need to focus on the side entrance. More people in the suburbs = more cars = larger driveways. Don't allow people to asphalt their front lawn. Where will these cars go? On the road. Excellent, now its time for parking enforcement to do their job. If they park on the front lawn, time to take pictures and call Bylaw.

My issue is not so much with how many people live in a house, it's what comes with it. The property looks like ****, it gets run down, the front lawn turns into a driveway.

[r1lee]

well said.

Question is why municipality is not targeting for these illegal apartments? Are they afraid if they stop these illegal apartment they might lose the Votes? .

+1 that's your answer right there.

That's the problem that won't be addressed.

[r1lee]

It can be stopped, and we don't even need to focus on the side entrance. More people in the suburbs = more cars = larger driveways. Don't allow people to asphalt their front lawn. Where will these cars go? On the road. Excellent, now its time for parking enforcement to do their job. If they park on the front lawn, time to take pictures and call Bylaw.

My issue is not so much with how many people live in a house, it's what comes with it. The property looks like ****, it gets run down, the front lawn turns into a driveway.

The widening of the driveway can always be approved through a minor variance application. Unless you have a ton of people who wil show up to every town hall meeting to fight every minor variance, you're not going to be able to stop the widening of driveways.

So stopping people to asphalting their front lawn's will be very difficult.

[gilboman]

The widening of the driveway can always be approved through a minor variance application. Unless you have a ton of people who wil show up to every town hall meeting to fight every minor variance, you're not going to be able to stop the widening of driveways.

So stopping people to asphalting their front lawn's will be very difficult.

But lots of variances for wider driveways are not approved as well. Committee of adjustment doesn't just rubber stamp applications..there has to be a legitimate compelling reason and not affect the intent of the bylaw. An application just for widening with no reason other than having a wider driveway will not get approved. If the homeowner needs it as part of a bigger project or remodeling (e.g., garage is widened and driveway needs to as well to match), then that's a compelling reason. But all that will be dealt with at the Site Plan submission along with the variance application and etc.

[CatDog]

The widening of the driveway can always be approved through a minor variance application. Unless you have a ton of people who wil show up to every town hall meeting to fight every minor variance, you're not going to be able to stop the widening of driveways.

So stopping people to asphalting their front lawn's will be very difficult.

Than they should stop being approved.

Like ^ said, it isn't as easy as applying and getting automatically approved.

[spike1128]

Its not about white or brown or colour issue. Its the well maintained neighborhood and property values, stress on other things to maintain such.
Katchemash seems radical or he is just trolling when he posts rants against whites.

A certain percentage of color people will be more likely to do "this". That's why the general majority in Brampton does "this". Hence, the properties there are worth nothing.

Like the other poster has said. The city support is only build for let say 4 per household, how the majority of Brampton has like 12 per household. That's a lot of extra headcount to take care of. They want more roads/buses/facilities, but when they rise the taxes, they don't want to pay. This is the reason why most don't want basement apartments. Basement are not livable for normal people, so they shouldn't be allowed.

The problem is enforcement. If they don't enforce it and have the illegal owners be billed for taking away the illegal apartments, then the problem won't go away. If you guys remembered in Scarborough, a Chinese landlord bought 2 houses made them into rooming houses illegally. The city forced him to convert them back to originals, which cause him an arm and a leg. He was also fined for 200G or something. That's how they should be done.

Also, the city doesn't have enough resources/headcount to inspect the houses in the area. Not to mention legal issues with city going into people's private property to do inspections.

[manmanny]

A certain percentage of color people will be more likely to do "this". That's why the general majority in Brampton does "this". Hence, the properties there are worth nothing.

Like the other poster has said. The city support is only build for let say 4 per household, how the majority of Brampton has like 12 per household. That's a lot of extra headcount to take care of. They want more roads/buses/facilities, but when they rise the taxes, they don't want to pay. This is the reason why most don't want basement apartments. Basement are not livable for normal people, so they shouldn't be allowed.

The problem is enforcement. If they don't enforce it and have the illegal owners be billed for taking away the illegal apartments, then the problem won't go away. If you guys remembered in Scarborough, a Chinese landlord bought 2 houses made them into rooming houses illegally. The city forced him to convert them back to originals, which cause him an arm and a leg. He was also fined for 200G or something. That's how they should be done.

Also, the city doesn't have enough resources/headcount to inspect the houses in the area. Not to mention legal issues with city going into people's private property to do inspections.

Wow! 4 to 12 is beyond my expectations. I thought it would be 6-8 max.

[r1lee]

But lots of variances for wider driveways are not approved as well. Committee of adjustment doesn't just rubber stamp applications..there has to be a legitimate compelling reason and not affect the intent of the bylaw. An application just for widening with no reason other than having a wider driveway will not get approved. If the homeowner needs it as part of a bigger project or remodeling (e.g., garage is widened and driveway needs to as well to match), then that's a compelling reason. But all that will be dealt with at the Site Plan submission along with the variance application and etc.

A "legitimate" <-- not really, compelling reason can be anything from landscaping to my son and daughter both have a car. My parents recently had their variance approved and the committee of adjustment will rubber stamp a lot of these if there is not a large group of non supporters.



Than they should stop being approved.

Like ^ said, it isn't as easy as applying and getting automatically approved.

from experience, it's not an easy process to file etc. But the approval was pretty easy and stressless.

[kingrukus]

Get rid of all basement apartments, flatten houses that do not with to comply. They bring down property value and help create an oversaturation of people on the infrastucture of the city.

[danfromwaterloo]

I don't understand why they need to live in Brampton. Why can't they live somewhere else? Georgetown is a little further west but might be more affordable as its further from Toronto.

Oshawa and Windsor seem to have some of the most affordable properties. Why not move there?

1) Georgetown has no public transit. A lot of immigrants look at availability of public transit as a way to get around without having to buy a car.
2) Georgetown is significantly more expensive than Brampton for properties.
3) The "white flight" that's been going on for the last decade has targetted Georgetown, Guelph and Milton as landing spots, so any immigrants looking to move to Georgetown have to compete with the influx of people trying to move out of Brampton, further changing the house price gap. I have five houses on my street that were up for sale for less than a week before they were purchased, for 20-30K above asking price.

[manmanny]

Get rid of all basement apartments, flatten houses that do not with to comply. They bring down property value and help create an oversaturation of people on the infrastucture of the city.

Not that but restore to old legal status, paid everything by owners+fines.

[danfromwaterloo]

Get rid of all basement apartments, flatten houses that do not with to comply. They bring down property value and help create an oversaturation of people on the infrastucture of the city.

Pretty sure that's illegal.

[danfromwaterloo]

Wow! 4 to 12 is beyond my expectations. I thought it would be 6-8 max.

If you saw how some of the households are, 12 is being conservative. I once looked at renting a basement apartment in Brampton, about 8 years ago. The house I was looking at had a mom, dad, and three children, both sets of grandparents, an uncle and aunt and their two children, and another uncle and another aunt. That's 15 people. And the house was maybe 2500 sqft. The entranceway had about a hundred pairs of shoes and sandals, and there was a two car garage with a four car driveway (2x2), all of which filled. I'd have to park down the street. And, to top it off, the basement also had two rooms with a separate entrance for two renters. So, really, that house is somehow supporting 17 people. For those who doubt me, the house was next door to that massive church on Bovaird and Bramalea.

Now, if that house was expected to be filled with 5 people, and you have 17 living there, how in the world can your infrastructure support that? As it is, that huge hospital in Brampton has some of the worst wait times in the country because of the overcrowding. I know people who have waited 6+ hours there to be seen for a broken arm.

[fakishan]

we all know what this is really about, has always been about

group A wants to prosper, while group B thinks it will be detrimental for group B

[manmanny]

If you saw how some of the households are, 12 is being conservative. I once looked at renting a basement apartment in Brampton, about 8 years ago. The house I was looking at had a mom, dad, and three children, both sets of grandparents, an uncle and aunt and their two children, and another uncle and another aunt. That's 15 people. And the house was maybe 2500 sqft. The entranceway had about a hundred pairs of shoes and sandals, and there was a two car garage with a four car driveway (2x2), all of which filled. I'd have to park down the street. And, to top it off, the basement also had two rooms with a separate entrance for two renters. So, really, that house is somehow supporting 17 people. For those who doubt me, the house was next door to that massive church on Bovaird and Bramalea.

Now, if that house was expected to be filled with 5 people, and you have 17 living there, how in the world can your infrastructure support that? As it is, that huge hospital in Brampton has some of the worst wait times in the country because of the overcrowding. I know people who have waited 6+ hours there to be seen for a broken arm.

I don't doubt you but that makes me I am living on another city or planet.
I need to visit that area to be in touch with reality there.
What the hell city is doing about this? And neighbors are quite about this? How can they accept this?

[Siskie]

1) Georgetown has no public transit. A lot of immigrants look at availability of public transit as a way to get around without having to buy a car.
2) Georgetown is significantly more expensive than Brampton for properties.
3) The "white flight" that's been going on for the last decade has targetted Georgetown, Guelph and Milton as landing spots, so any immigrants looking to move to Georgetown have to compete with the influx of people trying to move out of Brampton, further changing the house price gap. I have five houses on my street that were up for sale for less than a week before they were purchased, for 20-30K above asking price.

ok fine. Why not move to Oshawa or Windsor then? Windsor has some of the cheapest houses out there. They could buy a house and a car.

[KDSet]

Re: 12-15 in a household

Wow. This is not so much about basement apartments as it is an immigrant problem.

[danfromwaterloo]

God forbid if anything pisses off WHITE people.

God forbid people new to our country have to adapt to our way of life.


A bunch of racists came up with this law and it should be struck down.

...and what exactly does race have to do with this? This has to do with overcapacity and overburdening of the Brampton infrastructure.


These white neighbours need to get on the train and flee to other white neighbourhoods of their kind.

Why should they have to leave? If you want to have two dozen people living in your house that's zoned for single-family dwellings, why should everybody else have to change? There's plenty of rural areas where you can do whatever you want - move there.

[Nettles]

MIght as well legalize them since they're everywhere anyways and people are using them. If you legalize them then maybe it'll give people a greater incentive to ensure that the basement is maintained in the first place by having some guide lines.

If they're illegal and someone is renting it out then they're not gonna bother to comply to the other basement regulations either.

[danfromwaterloo]

I don't doubt you but that makes me I am living on another city or planet.
I need to visit that area to be in touch with reality there.
What the hell city is doing about this? And neighbors are quite about this? How can they accept this?

From what I could tell from the surrounding area, it seemed the norm. The street was a typical subdivision street, except you could only drive, essentially, one way because there was a solid stream of cars on either side of the street. Maybe 20 per side, solid, all the way down the street.

I know in the A-block of Bramalea, every second house has a basement apartment, with separate entrances and similar overburden on the infrastructure.

[danfromwaterloo]

MIght as well legalize them since they're everywhere anyways and people are using them. If you legalize them then maybe it'll give people a greater incentive to ensure that the basement is maintained in the first place by having some guide lines.

If they're illegal and someone is renting it out then they're not gonna bother to comply to the other basement regulations either.

If they were to legalize them, they should be charging a hefty tax on each unit, and heavily fining those who don't comply. They could then take the additional tax revenue and upgrade the infrastructure to support the additional people.

[_Allan_]

how did you know those owners are foreigners, not Canadian citizens/PRs?

When I rented, I didn't ask the landlord to show me their passports/immigrantion papers. How could you do that?

Because both houses - the chinese and the Indian landlords - were very proud to have been in Canada less than 5 years. They may have had their PR, but in their eyes, they were still Chinese or Indian, and NOT anything Canadian. They didn't care about their citizenship, and only got it to stay in Canada. (So said the Indian guy.)
I left the Indian place, as the brother-in-law rented the room next to mine, had mice and other bugs, and left is underwear on the kitchen counter!!!
I left the Chinese owned house because they wanted me to heat my rooms with space heaters instead of running the furnace. When they said "laundry included" that meant only the washer, and I had to hang my clothes, even in the winter.

[particleman]

Doesn't Brampton have an overnight street parking by-law to prevent this like other cities?


From what I could tell from the surrounding area, it seemed the norm. The street was a typical subdivision street, except you could only drive, essentially, one way because there was a solid stream of cars on either side of the street. Maybe 20 per side, solid, all the way down the street.

I know in the A-block of Bramalea, every second house has a basement apartment, with separate entrances and similar overburden on the infrastructure.

[danfromwaterloo]

Doesn't Brampton have an overnight street parking by-law to prevent this like other cities?

My neighbour parked his car on his front lawn.

Bylaws are useless without enforcement.

[neutral]

My parents moved to Canada and lived in a cheap city (suburban Hamilton) instead of thinking they'd move in right next to the biggest, most expensive place in the country. I don't see why the people in Brampton 'need' to live in basement apartments instead of doing the same.

These things should be outlawed unless they can pass strict compliance requirements and be subject to random inspections. A better system of tenant protection would need to be enacted as well, as most of these private landlords are shady as hell, and will do illegal things like demanding security deposits, invading privacy, etc.

Jobs.

[neutral]

It seems a lot of people want things both ways. We want to cut the wages of working people, and then complain when people have to do things like this to get by. It is what it is.

[NorthYorker]

These things should be outlawed unless they can pass strict compliance requirements and be subject to random inspections. Agree, but it seems to me that crux of the Brampton's dispute is not compliance of basement apartments but very idea of having them.

[NorthYorker]

3) The "white flight" that's been going on for the last decade has targetted Georgetown, Guelph and Milton as landing spotsMilton is getting pretty "hyphenated-Canadian" too. My Buddhist buddy told me that there's talk of opening a temple somewhere around James Snow/401, and I know that quite a few Russians moved there too. It becomes just Eastern Mississauga/Eastern Brampton.

[danfromwaterloo]

Milton is getting pretty "hyphenated-Canadian" too. My Buddhist buddy told me that there's talk of opening a temple somewhere around James Snow/401, and I know that quite a few Russians moved there too. It becomes just Eastern Mississauga/Eastern Brampton.

You mean western.

I have relatives and friends that live in Milton, and I've met a number of their neighbours. Ironically, I've spoken to two second-generation Indo-Canadians, and they said that they moved out of Brampton because "they couldn't stand all the brown people". That made me laugh.

The white flight isn't all white. It's just a colloquial for all the previous inhabitants of the area moving to another area. While much of Brampton was blue-collar white people, there was always a decent number of minorities that lived there that have also moved to escape the craziness that is Brampton today.

[bullionaire]

It seems a lot of people want things both ways. We want to cut the wages of working people, and then complain when people have to do things like this to get by. It is what it is.

Nice try. Let's start by banning immigration from certain countries that have history of turning their neighbourhoods into third world nations.

[UrbanPoet]

I think they should be banned unless strict compliance guidlines and enforcement was implemented.

This is just to prevent the basement apartments from turning into "slum housing". Theres so many in Toronto. But they exist for a reason... Because some people straight up can't afford it.
Theres also safety and health issues. Basements already have the disadvantage of being underground. The ventilation will be poor and they do contain a lot of moisture which could quickly turn to mould. Mould already develops on the cielings/walls of high and dry bathrooms that aren't cleaned/maintained...

Imagine what will happen to a bathroom in basement that isn't cleaned/maintained.

Theres also the fire hazard. I doubt many have proper fire insulation in the floors, walls, and doors. There aren't enough exits either.

Another thing is all the cars spilling on to lawns and streets. Its just not nice to look at + it does take over green space. If people were allowed to do anything they wanted... Most people wouldn't have grass anymore, and just have 6 cars on the lawn.

[elmst200]

Look at this 18-room single family house. It is not in Brampton.


Suburban house split up into 18 bedrooms

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/300147

Donovan Vincent
city hall bureau

Lushan Lu's home renovation project doesn't involve installing new hardwood floors, or fancy new faucets for a bathroom.

A few years ago he subdivided his large Scarborough home into an illegal rooming house, creating 18 bedrooms and eight bathrooms.

Now he's returning it to its original form.

That comes after he pleaded guilty in court this summer to city zoning bylaw infractions. He and co-owner Zhuan "May" Wang were each fined $5,000.

Tenants in the home on New Forest Square, in the Kennedy Rd. and Steeles Ave. E. area, were paying $400 a month rent.

If Lu and Wang had just one person per room in their house they would collect more than $7,000 each month.

The case marked one of two successful prosecutions by the city this past summer of illegal rooming house operators.

The other, Run Ying "Lucy" Wang, was fined $72,000 for zoning violations relating to two homes in her name on nearby Shepton Way.

The cases reveal the suburban spin on what is often seen as a downtown problem.

And city officials say there are hundreds of illegal rooming houses run by landlords exploiting people desperate for affordable housing.

Lu's property, which city officials say was being run like a hotel, was advertised on the Internet. The website offered potential tenants, mostly new immigrants to Canada, a ride from Pearson airport in a van, though Lu insists many made their own way to the house.

What's surprising is that Lu's property looks like any other suburban home. The nondescript, two-storey, red-brick house boasts a two-door garage and a large evergreen tree dominates the front yard.

While the Star could not gain access to the house, it is hard to imagine 18 rooms crammed into the residence.

And it's not easy matter for officials to stop landlords operating outside the law.

Toronto officials with Municipal Licensing and Standards, the fire department and city councillors in North York and Scarborough are using the fire code and property standards rules to close illegal rooming houses operating in those two communities.

However, it's a slow process.

Meanwhile, the landlords are making big bucks off the backs of desperate tenants. The operators rarely flinch when ordered to pay fines because they're making so much money, city councillors say.

"These illegal rooming houses aren't just a blight on the neighbourhoods, they're exploiting the people who live in them," North York councillor John Filion (Ward 23, Willowdale) says.

In downtown Toronto, the victims of illegal rooming houses are often long-time residents who are homeless or trying to escape that.

The Star recently profiled a property on Queen St. W., which earned the nickname `the Dungeon.'

Though it wasn't a rooming house, the conditions were deplorable, and city officials condemned the basement, where they found a number of men living among live and dead mice, and human feces on the floor.

But unlike those tenants, the residents in illegal suburban rooming houses are typically foreign students, or new immigrants to Canada seeking a better life.

"I think it (illegal housing) is an issue all over the place. It just manifests itself differently in different parts of the city," Filion adds.

The problem has popped up in the 905 region, too.

In June a home in Markham caught fire, killing landlord Roberto "Ali" Valdini. Before his death he'd been to court repeatedly since September 2006, answering to fire code violations.

The home, on Steeles Ave. E. near Yonge St. is in an area zoned for single-family homes, but it had been subdivided into 11 units.

Markham fire department's acting deputy chief Glenn ***** says electrical problems are suspected as the cause, though the office of the Ontario Fire Marshal is still investigating.

Illegal rooming houses are potential fire hazards because they have numerous self-contained units and more tenants using electricity to power things like computers and hot plates in their rooms. That can overload circuits, and cause a fire, ***** says.

Rooming houses are licensed and regulated in Toronto, but preamalgamation rules prohibiting them remain in force in North York and Scarborough.

Toronto's public health department licenses lodging houses in Etobicoke.

Lu, a software developer who ran unsuccessfully as a city councillor in Scarborough in the 2006 municipal election, was reticent about his rooming house.

The married father of two says he bought the home around 2002 and subdivided it sometime later. He rented out rooms because his wife doesn't work.

In addition to that property he has another house a few doors down, in which he now lives with his family.

Lu says he learned the first property was illegal after consulting city documents on his own. The city got wind of this house after receiving a complaint.

City officials spoke to him several times, says Bill Blakes, a district manager for the Municipal Licensing and Standards office in Scarborough, and Lu got a warning letter in June 2004.

Licensing and standards investigators made several requests to enter the property during their probe, but were rebuffed, before the owner finally agreed.

In June 2006 investigators determined the property was a rooming house, which legally is defined as: A living accommodation being rented by more than two persons who aren't members of a single family that would normally occupy the dwelling.

Obtaining a search warrant to enter suspected rooming houses is no easy feat, says Lance Cumberbatch, director of investigations for Toronto's municipal licensing division.

"We have to persuade a justice of the peace. We might see a lot of cars or a lot of garbage being put out, but in the past that's not been enough," Cumberbatch says.

So often it's up to the owner to grant entry.

[NorthYorker]

You mean western.Yes, shame on me :(
I have relatives and friends that live in Milton, and I've met a number of their neighbours. Ironically, I've spoken to two second-generation Indo-Canadians, and they said that they moved out of Brampton because "they couldn't stand all the brown people". That made me laugh.Actually, this sentiment from "brown neighbours" is completely natural, as majority of ethnic ghettos have much more severe social problem than ethnic one. Ghettos are populated by poor(er) people, with all the accompanying problems of a "Lower East Side during Prohibition". So these neighbours were just expressing a displeasure with living among poorer people.

[Piro21]

Jobs.

Lots of jobs in other cities. Overcrowding does not make for a good labour market.

[neutral]

Lots of jobs in other cities. Overcrowding does not make for a good labour market.

If there were, then these other cities would be as populated as Toronto. The fact of the matter is, Toronto, and the surrounding areas are only maintained because there are jobs to support the population. There are immigrants in other cities as well.

[neutral]

Nice try. Let's start by banning immigration from certain countries that have history of turning their neighbourhoods into third world nations.

It seems many so called real Canadians are doing a fine job of turning Canada in a third world nation all on their own. Supporting policies that put economic pressure on more people creates these situations. What do you think happens when morons keep calling for wages of regular workers all over the country to be slashed? This is the result.

[manmanny]

Torstar headline itself explains the problem. And the article starts with same.

"Brampton residents are riled up over an issue that has divided the city along cultural lines, with immigrant groups demanding that basement apartments be legalized while others remain steadfastly opposed."

[bullionaire]

It seems many so called real Canadians are doing a fine job of turning Canada in a third world nation all on their own. Supporting policies that put economic pressure on more people creates these situations.

Why is it that only Brampton is turning into a ***** hole? Does Brampton have different policies than the rest of Canada? No, it has more Indian immigrants than any other place in Canada. Another immigrant blaming their problem on someone else.


What do you think happens when morons keep calling for wages of regular workers all over the country to be slashed? This is the result.

So South Asians started brining in their extended families to Canada because of wage cuts? :facepalm:

Get your facts straight. People want to get PUBLIC SECTOR wages under control. They don't give a damn about private sector wages. Cutting public sector wages didn't make idiots in Brampton any stupider than they already are.

[manmanny]

Why is it that only Brampton is turning into a ***** hole? Does Brampton have different policies than the rest of Canada? No, it has more Indian immigrants than any other place in Canada. Another immigrant blaming their problem on someone else.



So South Asians started brining in their extended families to Canada because of wage cuts? :facepalm:

Get your facts straight. People want to get PUBLIC SECTOR wages under control. They don't give a damn about private sector wages. Cutting public sector wages didn't make idiots in Brampton any stupider than they already are.

Ouch.

But good question is why Brampton? Is it because of Sikh Majority? The photo from star article has that Sikh Head-cover.

[neutral]

Why is it that only Brampton is turning into a ***** hole? Does Brampton have different policies than the rest of Canada? No, it has more Indian immigrants than any other place in Canada. Another immigrant blaming their problem on someone else.



So South Asians started brining in their extended families to Canada because of wage cuts? :facepalm:

Get your facts straight. People want to get PUBLIC SECTOR wages under control. They don't give a damn about private sector wages. Cutting public sector wages didn't make idiots in Brampton any stupider than they already are.

Yawn, people complain different areas and different groups of people as well. The bottom line is, reduced wages, wages that don't keep up with inflation will result in more financial hardship, and more people needing to rent, needing to share housing. Your butt hurt rhetoric doesn't change any of that.

[sandikosh]

I oppose basement suties. The more people living in the house, the more parking space required for cars! That means lawns will be reduced to make way for parking. Or people will petition the municipalities to make it legal to use the roadway for parking. Enough is enough! These people should stay in their home country!

[danfromwaterloo]

Ouch.

But good question is why Brampton? Is it because of Sikh Majority? The photo from star article has that Sikh Head-cover.

I think there's no straightforward reason why. I think there's a dozen different factors in play, and here's a few:

1) HORRIBLE civic leadership - All the city is worried about is stuffing the borders with as many people as possible to pad their tax roles. No reasonable city council would ever allow for as much development and growth that Brampton has seen in the last two decades.

2) Cheap housing - Due to it's proximity to the airport, Malton was a natural place for poor immigrants to land and set up their communities. From there, they were faced with heading either south, to a relatively affluent Mississauga, east to Rexdale, or north to Brampton. Since Mississauga was priced out of most immigrant's budgets, the Indian community headed North to Brampton, while the Caribbean community headed to Rexdale. When you look at house prices vs. new immigrant populations, it almost maps perfectly. More immigrants - lower house prices.

3) Cultural issues - From my experiences living in Brampton, Indian sub-continental culture is one where multiple families do often live together or in very close proximity. This helps lead to problems of higher-than-average density when dealing with families of this culture.

4) Cultural insulation - This is not unique to Brampton by any means, as can be seen in Markham or in parts of BC. Once a culture has set roots in one area, more people of the same feather will flock there, causing a feedback loop leading to a community where people can live fully within their own community and not "localize" at all. As a result, you see many immigrants that don't even learn to speak English, don't keep up their properties, and keep their own morals and values that often clash with the host community.

[NEMESIS_2008]

I i

[r1lee]

I i

great post.. i shat a little.

[BuddyGuy]

To those that take the 410 North off-ramp from the 401 West every day:


Hahahahahahahahaha!


But seriously, I feel for you everyday I drive on by on the 403 West off-ramp.

[hugh_da_man]

Yawn, people complain different areas and different groups of people as well. The bottom line is, reduced wages, wages that don't keep up with inflation will result in more financial hardship, and more people needing to rent, needing to share housing. Your butt hurt rhetoric doesn't change any of that.

Reduced wages and lack of housing. Sounds like we don't really need these people in Canada (or at least in that area of Canada) since competition for the jobs has resulted in lower wages so let's stop allowing them in or require that they go somewhere else that actually needs the people.

[Dina_E]

ive noticed that scarborough and north york have gotten better over the past few years.

looks like all our trash have migrated to brampton and markham and oshawa.

[zz000ter]

How does property tax work on these rental properties?

In a normal house - the property tax will support normally two adults and two children for city services.

In these "homes" which might now hold ten people - the property tax is still the same.
So these people are in effect not paying their fair share of a contribution to municipal services.

That does not sound fair to me

[neutral]

Reduced wages and lack of housing. Sounds like we don't really need these people in Canada (or at least in that area of Canada) since competition for the jobs has resulted in lower wages so let's stop allowing them in or require that they go somewhere else that actually needs the people.

Hey, apparently Canada needs more immigration, AND needs to be more 'competitive' in a global market. Ie lower wages for everyone except the top few %. It might make sense for someone to simply be thankful that they own their own home or are renting more than a room. Lucky us.

[sandikosh]

ive noticed that scarborough and north york have gotten better over the past few years.

looks like all our trash have migrated to brampton and markham and oshawa.

No it hasn't! You just got used to it and it became everyday life.

[CSK'sMom]

Hey, apparently Canada needs more immigration, AND needs to be more 'competitive' in a global market. Ie lower wages for everyone except the top few %. It might make sense for someone to simply be thankful that they own their own home or are renting more than a room. Lucky us.

According to the gov't today, no we don't need more immigration or offshore workers. They want to force EI claimants to fill the jobs that the previously mentioned now fill or risk loosing their benefits....

[spike1128]

No it hasn't! You just got used to it and it became everyday life.

I agree. Look at pmall area. Also 14th and markham road.

[Piro21]

According to the gov't today, no we don't need more immigration or offshore workers. They want to force EI claimants to fill the jobs that the previously mentioned now fill or risk loosing their benefits....

This is awesome. I'm sick of people bitching about immigrants on welfare while they're sitting on EI because they're too ****ing lazy to find a temp job while they look for a new career one. I'm not a fan of Harper, but this is a good move.

[onlineharvest]

If you saw how some of the households are, 12 is being conservative. I once looked at renting a basement apartment in Brampton, about 8 years ago. The house I was looking at had a mom, dad, and three children, both sets of grandparents, an uncle and aunt and their two children, and another uncle and another aunt. That's 15 people. And the house was maybe 2500 sqft. The entranceway had about a hundred pairs of shoes and sandals, and there was a two car garage with a four car driveway (2x2), all of which filled. I'd have to park down the street. And, to top it off, the basement also had two rooms with a separate entrance for two renters. So, really, that house is somehow supporting 17 people. For those who doubt me, the house was next door to that massive church on Bovaird and Bramalea.

Now, if that house was expected to be filled with 5 people, and you have 17 living there, how in the world can your infrastructure support that? As it is, that huge hospital in Brampton has some of the worst wait times in the country because of the overcrowding. I know people who have waited 6+ hours there to be seen for a broken arm.

I did the house to house info collection for census back when I was younger. Lived in Toronto in a neighborhood with about half Italian. Those houses with the same population as in Brampton always had many more people (17 was the most I recall, we're talking about 1300-1500sqft bungalows). I also worked as a construction site super in Brampton for a few years and the numbers are no exaggeration. As soon as the community was near complete occupancy, the streets were always flooded with cars, and far more people were there than you'd expect. Imagine me doing a PDI with over 10 people at a time - that was my PDI experience while in Brampton. :)

[NorthYorker]

What's the worse they would do to you? Give you a lingering stare, or do a double-take?How does prohibition for kids to befriend "browns" in school sound? I've seen it in Barrie (poorer white area of the city). This was the most educated family in whole neighborhood, but their kids were still ostracized in school.

[Ojam]

According to the gov't today, no we don't need more immigration or offshore workers. They want to force EI claimants to fill the jobs that the previously mentioned now fill or risk loosing their benefits....

I like this idea.

[Xpwmata]

How does prohibition for kids to befriend "browns" in school sound? I've seen it in Barrie (poorer white area of the city). This was the most educated family in whole neighborhood, but their kids were still ostracized in school.

And this is different from a brown girl being forbidden by her family to bring home a white guy in what way exactly? This is a common issue, not exclusive to white families in Barrie, despite what you may think.

BTW, prohibitionisms are unlawful acts enforced by the law. I would choose my words more carefully. It was never illegal for white kids to become friends with brown kids in Barrie :lol:.

[webdoctors]

as long as the basements are legal and up to code its fine, Toronto has had basement apartments for decades.

They also get taxes more on property taxes due to the extra units, so its not like its a free ride so quit whining.

[NorthYorker]

And this is different from a brown girl being forbidden by her family to bring home a white guy in what way exactly?I was talking about 9-10 yo kids, for Allmighty's sake, practically encouraged by their (pretty much "white trash") families to bully those guys in school. This is, IMHO, a bit different from being nervous about your daughter's taste in sexual partners. Although I agree with you that these are two probes from the same xenophobic well.

[NorthYorker]

Probably be polite and open the door for youWhen I was looking for a house, I semi-jokingly suggested to my co-worker (who hailed from some area "West of 400, North of Kleinburg" and was a head of local church community) that I should be looking in his area , since houses there were literally third the price comparing to where I was looking (North York/Thornhill). The guy became very serious and spent next half-hour repeating that I, being Jewish Russian, should NOT, for my own sake, take up residence in the area. Taking into account that he was obviously torn between desire to help me and not to badmouth his community, this was one advice I did took seriously.

[Xpwmata]

I was talking about 9-10 yo kids, for Allmighty's sake, practically encouraged by their (pretty much "white trash") families to bully those guys in school. This is, IMHO, a bit different from being nervous about your daughter's taste in sexual partners. Although I agree with you that these are two probes from the same xenophobic well.

Yes, racism exists. No question.

[danfromwaterloo]

When I was looking for a house, I semi-jokingly suggested to my co-worker (who hailed from some area "West of 400, North of Kleinburg" and was a head of local church community) that I should be looking in his area , since houses there were literally third the price comparing to where I was looking (North York/Thornhill). The guy became very serious and spent next half-hour repeating that I, being Jewish Russian, should NOT, for my own sake, take up residence in the area. Taking into account that he was obviously torn between desire to help me and not to badmouth his community, this was one advice I did took seriously.

Nothing would have happened. He was being melodramatic.

[konfusion666]

I think the ghettoness of Brampton has been a bit overstated, both in this thread and the thread about the crazy youtube girl. Not surprising as memes on RFD tend to get blown out of proportion...

I'm not biased in any way to favour Brampton. I live now in a reasonably affluent part of Toronto (Willowdale; yonge/empress) and I previously lived in a reasonably affluent part of 'Sauga (near Erin Mills TC). I'm never lived in Brampton, but have had "dealings" with people there, i.e. friends, co-workers etc., so I've visited somewhat often.

Brampton, despite it's flaws, is still in better shape than Rexdale and pretty much all of Etobicoke north of the 401. It's also better than Jane/Finch.
It's also still better than many/most pockets of Scarborough. The fact remains that Scarborough is where you're most likely to be killed by a crazed motorist running a red light - not Brampton.

TBH there really isn't a whole lot of difference between Brampton and the 'Saug. One is loved (because of a cute 200-year-old lady) and the other is hated... doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, then again, most "debates" on RFDOT don't make sense period (and are just excuses for rantfests), so...

[konfusion666]

Nothing would have happened. He was being melodramatic.

The thing is, you don't really know how "visible minorities" (or even semi-visible minorities, like NorthYorker) are really treated in Smalltown, Canada - because you're not one!

Simple truth is simple.

[danfromwaterloo]

The thing is, you don't really know how "visible minorities" (or even semi-visible minorities, like NorthYorker) are really treated in Smalltown, Canada - because you're not one!

Simple truth is simple.

Simple truth is that I'm a half Jew living in Smalltown Canada, and I've had no problems. And I look Jewish.

[NorthYorker]

Nothing would have happened.To me - no doubts. I don't think that anyone would burn crosses on my lawn or assault me. However, whole load of cold shoulder plus some heavy **** happening to my kids in school were, as far as I understood his concerns, quite possible.

[danfromwaterloo]

I think the ghettoness of Brampton has been a bit overstated, both in this thread and the thread about the crazy youtube girl. Not surprising as memes on RFD tend to get blown out of proportion...

I'm not biased in any way to favour Brampton. I live now in a reasonably affluent part of Toronto (Willowdale; yonge/empress) and I previously lived in a reasonably affluent part of 'Sauga (near Erin Mills TC). I'm never lived in Brampton, but have had "dealings" with people there, i.e. friends, co-workers etc., so I've visited somewhat often.

Brampton, despite it's flaws, is still in better shape than Rexdale and pretty much all of Etobicoke north of the 401. It's also better than Jane/Finch.
It's also still better than many/most pockets of Scarborough. The fact remains that Scarborough is where you're most likely to be killed by a crazed motorist running a red light - not Brampton.

TBH there really isn't a whole lot of difference between Brampton and the 'Saug. One is loved (because of a cute 200-year-old lady) and the other is hated... doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, then again, most "debates" on RFDOT don't make sense period (and are just excuses for rantfests), so...

I grew up in Mississauga and lived in Brampton - they are worlds apart. Mississauga is nicely multicultural, with few pockets of one ethnicity. Can't say that about Brampton anymore.

[danfromwaterloo]

To me - no doubts. I don't think that anyone would burn crosses on my lawn or assault me. However, whole load of cold shoulder plus some heavy **** happening to my kids in school were, as far as I understood his concerns, quite possible.

That's true. I hadn't considered kids going to school...

[NorthYorker]

I hadn't considered kids going to school...

Simple truth is that I'm a half Jew living in Smalltown Canada, and I've had no problems. And I look Jewish.You know, I'm a "Damn Russian Commie", I speak with "Commie" accent, I abhor Canadian beer and absolutely don't care about hockey :) They would treat me and you differently, it is classical "Downtown/Uptown Jew" dilemma, if you studied history of Jewish half of your ancestry.
The thing is, you don't really know how "visible minorities" (or even semi-visible minorities, like NorthYorker) are really treated in Smalltown, Canada - because you're not one!I can offer an absolutely unscientific observation. I'm helping one Russophone insurance agent to maintain computer-related stuff, from hardware to data. I've noticed that there's something like "100K city cutoff", as far as Russian childed clientele is concerned. Childless immigrants settle everywhere. And I do mean "everywhere". Sometimes Google Map does not know that hole in the middle of forested nowhere, but there's a Russian guy/gal there. However, folks with school-age kids seem to gravitate toward settlements with at least 100K population. Barrie, Sudbury, Windsor, Kingston - no problems. Some Smalltown - even if folks settle there, they're usually moving within 18 months. I guess this is critical size of community capable to accept "outsiders" :)

[Beeg]

A system for legalizing apartments will happen in Brampton, and in the rest of Ontario. The Liberal government doesn't have any money to spend for social housing and wants to create more private housing.

Legal apartments will hopefully lead to tenants knowing their legal rights. 3-6 month rent up front happens all the time, but is not legal. Firetraps are all over, but not legal.

Hopefully tenants will start enforcing their rights and these 'fly by night landlords' pay the price and either get legal and legit or get the hell out of the industry!

[manmanny]

You know, I'm a "Damn Russian Commie", I speak with "Commie" accent, I abhor Canadian beer and absolutely don't care about hockey :) They would treat me and you differently, it is classical "Downtown/Uptown Jew" dilemma, if you studied history of Jewish half of your ancestry. I can offer an absolutely unscientific observation. I'm helping one Russophone insurance agent to maintain computer-related stuff, from hardware to data. I've noticed that there's something like "100K city cutoff", as far as Russian childed clientele is concerned. Childless immigrants settle everywhere. And I do mean "everywhere". Sometimes Google Map does not know that hole in the middle of forested nowhere, but there's a Russian guy/gal there. However, folks with school-age kids seem to gravitate toward settlements with at least 100K population. Barrie, Sudbury, Windsor, Kingston - no problems. Some Smalltown - even if folks settle there, they're usually moving within 18 months. I guess this is critical size of community capable to accept "outsiders" :)

What a bunch of bull. If you are Russian the Hockey will be your games.

[manmanny]

A system for legalizing apartments will happen in Brampton, and in the rest of Ontario. The Liberal government doesn't have any money to spend for social housing and wants to create more private housing.

Legal apartments will hopefully lead to tenants knowing their legal rights. 3-6 month rent up front happens all the time, but is not legal. Firetraps are all over, but not legal.

Hopefully tenants will start enforcing their rights and these 'fly by night landlords' pay the price and either get legal and legit or get the hell out of the industry!

Again I disagree. You want to know your right then don't live in illegal housing. Don't pay 3-6 months rent u front.
Most new immigrants know the rules f Canada and how and what can be obtained from Canadian government.
Basically what you are saying start doing illegal things and in the end government will legalize them whatever they might be.

[Siskie]

The thing is, you don't really know how "visible minorities" (or even semi-visible minorities, like NorthYorker) are really treated in Smalltown, Canada - because you're not one!

Simple truth is simple.

There is no such thing as a visible minority in "small town, Canada" because no one gives a rats behind about race. Everyone treats each other like a human being because if you act like an a-hole, the "small-town" is small enough that your reputation will be ruined there for as long as you live.

Big cities like Toronto and the GTA are the only places where people discuss race day-in and day-out because of racial sensationalists that share the same opinion as you.

I couldn't even tell you the "race" of all my friends I made in the first small town I lived in when I moved to Canada. Maybe a difference in religion might come up once in a while and thats only because they could not eat a specific food according to their religion.

Seriously, you Torontonians need to stop focusing your daily life on race and go outside and enjoy life without thinking that if you go to Georgetown, your local convenience store owner will be wearing a white hood.

[Piro21]

There is no such thing as a visible minority in "small town, Canada" because no one gives a rats behind about race. Everyone treats each other like a human being because if you act like an a-hole, the "small-town" is small enough that your reputation will be ruined there for as long as you live.

Big cities like Toronto and the GTA are the only places where people discuss race day-in and day-out because of racial sensationalists that share the same opinion as you.

I couldn't even tell you the "race" of all my friends I made in the first small town I lived in when I moved to Canada. Maybe a difference in religion might come up once in a while and thats only because they could not eat a specific food according to their religion.

Seriously, you Torontonians need to stop focusing your daily life on race and go outside and enjoy life without thinking that if you go to Georgetown, your local convenience store owner will be wearing a white hood.

The general population of the GTA doesn't really make that big of an issue about race (at least the parts I've seen, anyway), but since the population is larger than anywhere else in the country we get our share of racist freaks that like to stir up trouble. Day-to-day life is normal, but occasionally we'll get **** like a mixed-race couple being forced to withdraw their kids from school because a racist school employee threatened to rape their daughter (this is the link. I can't believe this **** went on only 5 km from where I grew up (http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1110080--mississauga-couple-lose-bid-to-keep-their-kids-in-neighbourhood-school)) in the middle of a nice middle-class suburban area. That's abhorrent, and the fact that that can happen here with all the different groups around is what gives rise to the notion that small-town Canada is dangerous for an outsider (not saying it's true, but it's on people's minds nonetheless).

People like Metagame and whats-his-face from earlier in the thread are also here trying hard to hold on to their xenophobic views for some reason, and they love to spout their bs online where they can disconnect their real identities from the public shaming they receive. Once a place gets past a certain size in population it becomes hard to address all the crazies, but their presence doesn't mean that a lot of people in Toronto go around discussing race every day. It's just life as normal.

[Ziggy007]

As someone who bought a house in Brampton I can tell you this is what I encountered on my open houses / viewings of houses (I saw maybe 20-30 in all lat year before I bought)

- Around 50% of the houses have basement apartments anyway, I don't think any of them were zoned for it
- 1 or 2 of the houses I saw just had mattresses in every room, literally all the way around the room. I have no idea how many families were there but probably at least 4-5. (and no they weren't Indian, I believe they were Turkish or some sort of middle eastern)
- It is hit or miss in Brampton. Some sections are very well maintained with great houses, and great people (of any race), but you can turn down a street three blocks away where you roll up the windows, lock the doors, and don't stop for stop signs at night

[NorthYorker]

If you are Russian the Hockey will be your games.
I'm not fan of spectator sports in general, which is almost capital offence in Smalltown North America. I did play shinny in elementary and middle school, but it was a long time ago.
The country I was born and raised in (USSR) extended all the way to Afghan border, and at some point it gets too hot for a hockey.

[Ironsmack]

I think there's no straightforward reason why. I think there's a dozen different factors in play, and here's a few:

1) HORRIBLE civic leadership - All the city is worried about is stuffing the borders with as many people as possible to pad their tax roles. No reasonable city council would ever allow for as much development and growth that Brampton has seen in the last two decades.

2) Cheap housing - Due to it's proximity to the airport, Malton was a natural place for poor immigrants to land and set up their communities. From there, they were faced with heading either south, to a relatively affluent Mississauga, east to Rexdale, or north to Brampton. Since Mississauga was priced out of most immigrant's budgets, the Indian community headed North to Brampton, while the Caribbean community headed to Rexdale. When you look at house prices vs. new immigrant populations, it almost maps perfectly. More immigrants - lower house prices.

3) Cultural issues - From my experiences living in Brampton, Indian sub-continental culture is one where multiple families do often live together or in very close proximity. This helps lead to problems of higher-than-average density when dealing with families of this culture.

4) Cultural insulation - This is not unique to Brampton by any means, as can be seen in Markham or in parts of BC. Once a culture has set roots in one area, more people of the same feather will flock there, causing a feedback loop leading to a community where people can live fully within their own community and not "localize" at all. As a result, you see many immigrants that don't even learn to speak English, don't keep up their properties, and keep their own morals and values that often clash with the host community.


1 & 2. THIS. This is one major thing ive pissed off about brampton. The mayor and her ****tards seems to only care of stuffing brampton with too many people w/o any consideration to urban planning, infrastructures, etc. And you know what? They havent stopped. You'd think they stop selling land and developing them north of sandalwood. Nope. They just sold the apple farm by Major mack and most of the land around there - from Airport Road all the way west to Creditview - have been sold.

So they keep adding all this population - and house prices are going up. Seems like there's an artificial bubble house market in brampton. A house that was worth 275k two years ago, can sell w/o no problem for 400k. WTF?! 400k for a fking house in brampton?! Hey its great if your selling a house. But for future buyers like me (especially as a single dad) there's no way to afford that when your also paying child support. But personally, i wont be living in brampton. I'll move out west to guelph or surrounding areas. Cheaper housing and much more friendly communities.

4. I see this everyday at work. I work @ BCH and ill tell you guys - its insane how much people that comes in ER everyday. And the annoying thing is, 2 out of 10 patients i deal with everyday doesnt speak english. And it doesnt include all the visitors, patients family as well that doesnt speak english. Danfromwaterloo is right, most immigrants here are so entangled within their own community that they dont bother integrating with the other communities at all.

[konfusion666]

The general population of the GTA doesn't really make that big of an issue about race (at least the parts I've seen, anyway), but since the population is larger than anywhere else in the country we get our share of racist freaks that like to stir up trouble. Day-to-day life is normal, but occasionally we'll get **** like a mixed-race couple being forced to withdraw their kids from school because a racist school employee threatened to rape their daughter (this is the link. I can't believe this **** went on only 5 km from where I grew up (http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1110080--mississauga-couple-lose-bid-to-keep-their-kids-in-neighbourhood-school)) in the middle of a nice middle-class suburban area. That's abhorrent, and the fact that that can happen here with all the different groups around is what gives rise to the notion that small-town Canada is dangerous for an outsider (not saying it's true, but it's on people's minds nonetheless).

People like Metagame and whats-his-face from earlier in the thread are also here trying hard to hold on to their xenophobic views for some reason, and they love to spout their bs online where they can disconnect their real identities from the public shaming they receive. Once a place gets past a certain size in population it becomes hard to address all the crazies, but their presence doesn't mean that a lot of people in Toronto go around discussing race every day. It's just life as normal.

"This", pretty much. In addition, there's been enough cases of incidents affecting minorities in smaller towns for them to exercise caution. I've never said that all small towns were cesspools of racism anyways...

[BluePhirePB]

1 & 2. THIS. This is one major thing ive pissed off about brampton. The mayor and her ****tards seems to only care of stuffing brampton with too many people w/o any consideration to urban planning, infrastructures, etc. And you know what? They havent stopped. You'd think they stop selling land and developing them north of sandalwood. Nope. They just sold the apple farm by Major mack and most of the land around there - from Airport Road all the way west to Creditview - have been sold.

So they keep adding all this population - and house prices are going up. Seems like there's an artificial bubble house market in brampton. A house that was worth 275k two years ago, can sell w/o no problem for 400k. WTF?! 400k for a fking house in brampton?! Hey its great if your selling a house. But for future buyers like me (especially as a single dad) there's no way to afford that when your also paying child support. But personally, i wont be living in brampton. I'll move out west to guelph or surrounding areas. Cheaper housing and much more friendly communities.

4. I see this everyday at work. I work @ BCH and ill tell you guys - its insane how much people that comes in ER everyday. And the annoying thing is, 2 out of 10 patients i deal with everyday doesnt speak english. And it doesnt include all the visitors, patients family as well that doesnt speak english. Danfromwaterloo is right, most immigrants here are so entangled within their own community that they dont bother integrating with the other communities at all.+ > 9000 for all the above.

As a suggestion, I also recommend Georgetown as a future place to live. I grew up in Guelph and now live in Georgetown. Both places are good but Georgetown I'm finding is even nicer than Guelph and because of the water supply or something, it can't expand that much.

[danfromwaterloo]

+ > 9000 for all the above.

As a suggestion, I also recommend Georgetown as a future place to live. I grew up in Guelph and now live in Georgetown. Both places are good but Georgetown I'm finding is even nicer than Guelph and because of the water supply or something, it can't expand that much.

As a Georgetown resident, I can vouch for how much better it is there. If you're looking for a Guelph-like experience, without the distance, or the size (Guelph has grown a lot in the last 10 years), Georgetown is where it's at. Similarly, there's Rockwood and Acton if Georgetown is too big for your tastes.

I know a number of the residents around the district where I live, and I can tell you that 90% grew up in Brampton and Mississauga, and moved as part of the "white flight". The whole belief that it's full of racist rednecks or it's completely white is a myth. Just, compared to Brampton, it seems completely disproportionate. It's about as white as Oakville or Burlington. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say that 25-30% is ethnic minorities. Those that are there are very well integrated into Canadian society, often second or third generation.

I personally love where I live - people are nice, they look out for one another, the kids are respectful (even the "punks"), and it reminds me a lot of what it was like to grow up in Mississauga in the 80s and 90s. Its where I look forward to raising children. Everybody keeps their house in a good state; the men get out on Saturdays and mow the lawn, keep their grass nice and clean, wash their cars. There's a community pride here that I feel very fortunate to be a part of.

[BluePhirePB]

I personally love where I live - people are nice, they look out for one another, the kids are respectful (even the "punks"), and it reminds me a lot of what it was like to grow up in Mississauga in the 80s and 90s. Its where I look forward to raising children. Everybody keeps their house in a good state; the men get out on Saturdays and mow the lawn, keep their grass nice and clean, wash their cars. There's a community pride here that I feel very fortunate to be a part of.Excellent summary. My wife and I came to those conclusions too. She use to live in Brampton and she is so happy to be here. Another thing I've recently noticed is the police are quite active in Georgetown. There are certain streets they really patrol for speeders and they leave electronic signs around neighborhoods to spread awareness. Just this past week, I saw an electric sign they left on Miller and Eaton, alerting people ro cases of thefts in the neighborhood and a reminder to lock your car doors. I've NEVER seen that before, even in Guelph.

[danfromwaterloo]

Excellent summary. My wife and I came to those conclusions too. She use to live in Brampton and she is so happy to be here. Another thing I've recently noticed is the police are quite active in Georgetown. There are certain streets they really patrol for speeders and they leave electronic signs around neighborhoods to spread awareness. Just this past week, I saw an electric sign they left on Miller and Eaton, alerting people ro cases of thefts in the neighborhood and a reminder to lock your car doors. I've NEVER seen that before, even in Guelph.

Yeah, it's a double-edged sword. I never got a speeding ticket in my life before moving to Gtown. Now I have two. It seems every road leading into town has a stretch of 50km/h at some point, and the cops camp out there and ding people by the dozen.

[neutral]

As a Georgetown resident, I can vouch for how much better it is there. If you're looking for a Guelph-like experience, without the distance, or the size (Guelph has grown a lot in the last 10 years), Georgetown is where it's at. Similarly, there's Rockwood and Acton if Georgetown is too big for your tastes.

I know a number of the residents around the district where I live, and I can tell you that 90% grew up in Brampton and Mississauga, and moved as part of the "white flight". The whole belief that it's full of racist rednecks or it's completely white is a myth. Just, compared to Brampton, it seems completely disproportionate. It's about as white as Oakville or Burlington. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say that 25-30% is ethnic minorities. Those that are there are very well integrated into Canadian society, often second or third generation.

I personally love where I live - people are nice, they look out for one another, the kids are respectful (even the "punks"), and it reminds me a lot of what it was like to grow up in Mississauga in the 80s and 90s. Its where I look forward to raising children. Everybody keeps their house in a good state; the men get out on Saturdays and mow the lawn, keep their grass nice and clean, wash their cars. There's a community pride here that I feel very fortunate to be a part of.
Is there some sort of screening process? I'm pretty sure there were posters here, maybe even you, posting about a klan presence in Georgetown, and efforts by them and others to keep visible minorities out. If things have changed in 6 months, that's great!

[neutral]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but a friend who lives in Brampton, and had one of these why Brampton sucks conversations with those who live in the surrounding areas, pointed out that some of the strain on Brampton's infrastructure comes from those in these smaller surrounding towns using Brampton's infrastructure as well. Not sure if that can be measured, but it's an interesting point.

[bullionaire]

Yawn, people complain different areas and different groups of people as well.

Hello? We're talking about Brampton here specifically. Brampton is turning into a hell hole because they opened the flood gate and fobs all headed there.


The bottom line is, reduced wages, wages that don't keep up with inflation will result in more financial hardship, and more people needing to rent, needing to share housing.

You're saying your beautiful culture of living with in-laws, cousins and nephews is because of wage cuts? I thought that's the way they live back in their home country?


Your butt hurt rhetoric doesn't change any of that.

Yeah, I'm so butt hurt that 20 people live together in a single family home like cockroaches.

[neutral]

Hello? We're talking about Brampton here specifically. Brampton is turning into a hell hole because they opened the flood gate and fobs all headed there.
And? Again, people whine and moan and go on racist rants about different groups, the area where they live, how they live etc. This isn't any different.




You're saying your beautiful culture of living with in-laws, cousins and nephews is because of wage cuts? I thought that's the way they live back in their home country?

If people choose to live together, higher wages would mean they would be able to afford a bigger place.




Yeah, I'm so butt hurt that 20 people live together in a single family home like cockroaches.

I don't know, you seem rather angry. It's weird to be honest.

[Piro21]

If people choose to live together, higher wages would mean they would be able to afford a bigger place.

Not necessarily. If you're willing to tolerate that sort of situation you'd come out further ahead by just pocketing the extra money. That's why you'll usually see the cars parked outside the multi-family house move upmarket, but not the house itself.

[neutral]

Not necessarily. If you're willing to tolerate that sort of situation you'd come out further ahead by just pocketing the extra money. That's why you'll usually see the cars parked outside the multi-family house move upmarket, but not the house itself.

That could be said of anyone. But generally the more people make, the larger/more central their home is located. I don't look at students, who might be living 7-8 in a house, renting rooms, as anything but living in a place that they can afford, and is close to where they go to school. So I'm not sure why people would believe that with more income, people don't move out of these situations and buy homes of their own when and if they can, or move to a large place if and when they can afford it.

[Piro21]

That could be said of anyone. But generally the more people make, the larger/more central their home is located. I don't look at students, who might be living 7-8 in a house, renting rooms, as anything but living in a place that they can afford, and is close to where they go to school. So I'm not sure why people would believe that with more income, people don't move out of these situations and buy homes of their own when and if they can, or move to a large place if and when they can afford it.

Students are there temporarily. Family situations like the ones people in this thread have lived beside for years usually last until death or until the kids grow up and get married (but not always, sometimes they still live at home afterwards). The examples of 3 kids+parents+grandparents+aunt+uncle+cousins all living in the same house work like that.

It's not even really limited to Brampton; the 'moving out vs living at home' thread that was big a couple months back had a guy living in the Montreal suburbs who was splitting a 2-bedroom apartment with his wife, parents, brother, sister-in-law, and nephew. That's 7 people in one tiny place. He was completely happy with it, and asking the rest of us why anyone would move out when he was saving so much money sharing the costs of the place. I can see why people would be upset with that x 40,000 in their neighborhoods.

[bullionaire]

And? Again, people whine and moan and go on racist rants about different groups, the area where they live, how they live etc. This isn't any different.

Well, since you have trouble with English, I'll give you a quick summary. People are concerned about fobs turning their neighbourhoods into slum and overburdening the local infrastructure. Then, some fob named neutral comes out of woodwork trying to defend his fellow fobs and says it's because of wage cuts and somehow plays the race card again. This is hilarious.


If people choose to live together, higher wages would mean they would be able to afford a bigger place.

And still living like cockroaches.


I don't know, you seem rather angry. It's weird to be honest.

I'm sure you'd say the same thing to your colleagues! :lol:

[neutral]

Students are there temporarily. Family situations like the ones people in this thread have lived beside for years usually last until death or until the kids grow up and get married (but not always, sometimes they still live at home afterwards). The examples of 3 kids+parents+grandparents+aunt+uncle+cousins all living in the same house work like that.

It's not even really limited to Brampton; the 'moving out vs living at home' thread that was big a couple months back had a guy living in the Montreal suburbs who was splitting a 2-bedroom apartment with his wife, parents, brother, sister-in-law, and nephew. That's 7 people in one tiny place. He was completely happy with it, and asking the rest of us why anyone would move out when he was saving so much money sharing the costs of the place. I can see why people would be upset with that x 40,000 in their neighborhoods.

Again, you believe that is the norm. I don't. Even those who prefer to live with extended families, most would likely choose to live in larger homes if they can reasonably do so. Do the wealthy in India choose to live in cramped conditions when they can afford not to? I think people see an outcome and their biases create the explanation for what they see. To me, it just doesn't make any sense, and I've never heard or seen anything that suggests certain groups prefer to live in cramped quarters. It may be possible, but I don't see the proof.

[neutral]

Well, since you have trouble with English, I'll give you a quick summary. People are concerned about fobs turning their neighbourhoods into slum and overburdening the local infrastructure. Then, some fob named neutral comes out of woodwork trying to defend his fellow fobs and says it's because of wage cuts and somehow plays the race card again. This is hilarious.



And still living like cockroaches.



I'm sure you'd say the same thing to your colleagues! :lol:

LOL, I'd figure a 'bullionaire' wouldn't even have to live beside fobs.

[danfromwaterloo]

Is there some sort of screening process? I'm pretty sure there were posters here, maybe even you, posting about a klan presence in Georgetown, and efforts by them and others to keep visible minorities out. If things have changed in 6 months, that's great!

No, no screening process. There's also no Klan presence in Georgetown. That's akin to saying that there's a large terrorist element in Brampton - its a racial stereotype that has no bearing in fact, and is rather offensive. Yes, we all joke about it, but in reality, I've never seen one iota of overt racism. I have heard anecdotal things that developer salespeople try to dissuade minorities from buying, but I don't see how that could be widespread at all. After all, money seldom knows any colour.

But, keep in mind, while there's no active racism, there is a TON of resentment from the people in Georgetown. As I said, a lot of people there were "run out of Brampton" with the immigrant influx, and they'll do whatever is necessary to ensure that this doesn't happen in Georgetown. That's one of the large reasons why we don't have a local transit system. It's also a large reason why we control our growth so aggressively.

The end result really has nothing to do with race, it's about what type of community you want to live in. As long as our community remains the way that it is, anybody is welcome to come. We like how things are now, and we don't want to mess things up by making the same mistakes Brampton made 30 years ago.

[neutral]

No, no screening process. There's also no Klan presence in Georgetown. That's akin to saying that there's a large terrorist element in Brampton - its a racial stereotype that has no bearing in fact, and is rather offensive. Yes, we all joke about it, but in reality, I've never seen one iota of overt racism. I have heard anecdotal things that developer salespeople try to dissuade minorities from buying, but I don't see how that could be widespread at all. After all, money seldom knows any colour.

But, keep in mind, while there's no active racism, there is a TON of resentment from the people in Georgetown. As I said, a lot of people there were "run out of Brampton" with the immigrant influx, and they'll do whatever is necessary to ensure that this doesn't happen in Georgetown. That's one of the large reasons why we don't have a local transit system. It's also a large reason why we control our growth so aggressively.

The end result really has nothing to do with race, it's about what type of community you want to live in. As long as our community remains the way that it is, anybody is welcome to come. We like how things are now, and we don't want to mess things up by making the same mistakes Brampton made 30 years ago.

Ah no, it's not akin to anything in Brampton. That is not MY claim, but the claim of those who live in Georgetown, and if I remember correctly, was a claim that YOU made. And why would anyone joke about the presence of the klan? You've never seen one iota of overt racism, but know it's some sort of joke, that there is a klan presence in Georgetown, and that people will try to dissuade minorities from buying in Georgetown? That's pretty overt racism.

As for the resentment, no one was 'run out of Brampton'. They chose to leave. Being run out of, would be buying a home in Georgetown and being threatened by the klan, or 'jokes' about a klan presence and moving out as a result.

[BluePhirePB]

No, no screening process. There's also no Klan presence in Georgetown. That's akin to saying that there's a large terrorist element in Brampton - its a racial stereotype that has no bearing in fact, and is rather offensive. Yes, we all joke about it, but in reality, I've never seen one iota of overt racism. I have heard anecdotal things that developer salespeople try to dissuade minorities from buying, but I don't see how that could be widespread at all. After all, money seldom knows any colour.

But, keep in mind, while there's no active racism, there is a TON of resentment from the people in Georgetown. As I said, a lot of people there were "run out of Brampton" with the immigrant influx, and they'll do whatever is necessary to ensure that this doesn't happen in Georgetown. That's one of the large reasons why we don't have a local transit system. It's also a large reason why we control our growth so aggressively.

The end result really has nothing to do with race, it's about what type of community you want to live in. As long as our community remains the way that it is, anybody is welcome to come. We like how things are now, and we don't want to mess things up by making the same mistakes Brampton made 30 years ago.+1

[danfromwaterloo]

Ah no, it's not akin to anything in Brampton. That is not MY claim, but the claim of those who live in Georgetown, and if I remember correctly, was a claim that YOU made. And why would anyone joke about the presence of the klan? You've never seen one iota of overt racism, but know it's some sort of joke, that there is a klan presence in Georgetown, and that people will try to dissuade minorities from buying in Georgetown? That's pretty overt racism.

As for the resentment, no one was 'run out of Brampton'. They chose to leave. Being run out of, would be buying a home in Georgetown and being threatened by the klan, or 'jokes' about a klan presence and moving out as a result.

Yes, we joke about the Klan because there's a lot of white people in Georgetown. Why would we joke about that? Because it's funny. Jokes about race are hilarious, or haven't you watched Russell Peters? So yes, in areas where there's lots of white people, jokes about the Klan come out. And yes, there's been one thing I've heard about a salesperson trying to dissuade a minority puchaser, but one person hardly makes an entire community, wouldn't you say? That would be rather prejudiced.

And, yes, people were essentially "run out of Brampton". No, nobody held a gun to their heads, but that doesn't mean people didn't feel compelled to leave. For example, my good friends decided to move when they saw an immigrant neighbour cutting his lawn with a machete. We decided to move because our neighbours would routinely park their cars on their front lawns, and let their children run wild - smashing our cars with their basketballs.

[neutral]

Yes, we joke about the Klan because there's a lot of white people in Georgetown. Why would we joke about that? Because it's funny. Jokes about race are hilarious, or haven't you watched Russell Peters? So yes, in areas where there's lots of white people, jokes about the Klan come out. And yes, there's been one thing I've heard about a salesperson trying to dissuade a minority puchaser, but one person hardly makes an entire community, wouldn't you say? That would be rather prejudiced.

And, yes, people were essentially "run out of Brampton". No, nobody held a gun to their heads, but that doesn't mean people didn't feel compelled to leave. For example, my good friends decided to move when they saw an immigrant neighbour cutting his lawn with a machete. We decided to move because our neighbours would routinely park their cars on their front lawns, and let their children run wild - smashing our cars with their basketballs.

Huh? You just criticized me for associating Georgetown with the kkk and now you say everyone there 'jokes' about it? It's hilarious? And no one ran you out. You had neighbors you didn't find desirable and chose to leave. You weren't targeted for expulsion. If I remember correctly, I don't think you said anything about 'joking' either when you mentioned the klan in Georgetown. Maybe I just missed the punch line, but I doubt it.

[danfromwaterloo]

Huh? You just criticized me for associating Georgetown with the kkk and now you say everyone there 'jokes' about it? It's hilarious? And no one ran you out. You had neighbors you didn't find desirable and chose to leave. You weren't targeted for expulsion. If I remember correctly, I don't think you said anything about 'joking' either when you mentioned the klan in Georgetown. Maybe I just missed the punch line, but I doubt it.

Maybe you care to find this quote I made before crucifying me with it?

[neutral]

Maybe you care to find this quote I made before crucifying me with it?

I'm asking you for honesty. Where do you talk about this being a joke here? This is one of your posts on the matter. I don't see where you mention anything being a 'joke' and actually speak of a specific example that YOU knew where someone was denied a house based on race. How is this friendly?


Originally Posted by kingrukus
That is true - there also seems to be a push into Milton, Oakville and other less suspected places.

I hear Georgetown residents/realtors typically will not sell to those of south asian decent. I also hear there is a KKK group that resides in Georgetown.

Your reply:
Living in Georgetown, i too have heard those stories. I actually know of a black couple who wanted to buy a house a few doors down from mine, and the realtor outright said to them, "oh, that house has already been sold" when in fact it wasn't, just so they wouldn't try to buy in the area.

G-town in general is not racist, but I do think there's that country element that doesnt exist in other parts of the GTA that has little/no exposure to minorities. They hear stories like this, and try to protect their neighbourhoods from the "horrors" of Brampton.

This does not make us any different than the other nationalities that subside in areas such as richmond hill or woodbridge or markham, it's only the fact that we are white that this gets labelled racist, versus "promoting multiculturalism" or "retaining our heritage"

[transitguy1]

According to the gov't today, no we don't need more immigration or offshore workers. They want to force EI claimants to fill the jobs that the previously mentioned now fill or risk loosing their benefits....

There are still too many "temporary foreign workers" from India taking away Canadian jobs while Canadians are forced onto EI and Welfare.

Even this govt is not throwing those foreign workers out, they keep bringing more in, to please the local vote banks.

[danfromwaterloo]

I'm asking you for honesty. Where do you talk about this being a joke here? This is one of your posts on the matter. I don't see where you mention anything being a 'joke' and actually speak of a specific example that YOU knew where someone was denied a house based on race. How is this friendly?


Originally Posted by kingrukus
That is true - there also seems to be a push into Milton, Oakville and other less suspected places.

I hear Georgetown residents/realtors typically will not sell to those of south asian decent. I also hear there is a KKK group that resides in Georgetown.

Your reply:
Living in Georgetown, i too have heard those stories. I actually know of a black couple who wanted to buy a house a few doors down from mine, and the realtor outright said to them, "oh, that house has already been sold" when in fact it wasn't, just so they wouldn't try to buy in the area.

G-town in general is not racist, but I do think there's that country element that doesnt exist in other parts of the GTA that has little/no exposure to minorities. They hear stories like this, and try to protect their neighbourhoods from the "horrors" of Brampton.

This does not make us any different than the other nationalities that subside in areas such as richmond hill or woodbridge or markham, it's only the fact that we are white that this gets labelled racist, versus "promoting multiculturalism" or "retaining our heritage"

I don't see how I being dishonest in any way. That one couple was in fact the couple I referred to. One instance. There is a country element here as half the town is very rural, and they don't like outsiders. Funny enough, that also includes me - they don't like people from the white flight. They like their city the way it was 10 years ago.

This protection of our neighborhoods is nothing nefarious. We dislike what Brampton has become, and seek to protect that. And it has little to do with race. If people of any color want to come to Georgetown, all are welcome, but expect to integrate or receive the cold shoulder. If you want to retain a different way of life, there are plenty of places in the GTA that you'll be able to find birds of your feather.

[Singh_21]

Georgetown definately has racist elements living there but as a brown person it hardly affects me because I have no intentions to move there and I doubt anyone from visible minority is lining up there to buy a house. Georgetown is for people on white flight.

[Singh_21]

There are still too many "temporary foreign workers" from India taking away Canadian jobs while Canadians are forced onto EI and Welfare.

Even this govt is not throwing those foreign workers out, they keep bringing more in, to please the local vote banks.

In 2010, 182,322 people became temporary foreign workers in Canada. The top 10 countries of origin for these individuals in order was (one) the United States, (two) Mexico, (three) France, (four) Australia, (five)the Philippines, (six) the United Kingdom, (seven) India, (eight) Jamaica, (nine) Germany and (10) South Korea. Indeed, American, French, Australian and British nationals accounted for almost 40 per cent of Canada’s foreign worker population.

It is implausible that citizens from the developed world, who account for the majority of foreign workers, work in Canada for less than what an average Canadian makes.

http://canadianimmigrant.ca/money/temporary-foreign-workers-do-not-deflate-wages

[konfusion666]

But, keep in mind, while there's no active racism, there is a TON of resentment from the people in Georgetown. As I said, a lot of people there were "run out of Brampton" with the immigrant influx, and they'll do whatever is necessary to ensure that this doesn't happen in Georgetown. That's one of the large reasons why we don't have a local transit system. It's also a large reason why we control our growth so aggressively.

The end result really has nothing to do with race, it's about what type of community you want to live in. As long as our community remains the way that it is, anybody is welcome to come. We like how things are now, and we don't want to mess things up by making the same mistakes Brampton made 30 years ago.

Although you say that there isn't any ACTIVE racism, you've admitted that there is "passive racism", using terms like "resentment".

And you wonder why people are criticizing your town?

:lol:

[BluePhirePB]

Georgetown definately has racist elements living there but as a brown person it hardly affects me because I have no intentions to move there and I doubt anyone from visible minority is lining up there to buy a house. Georgetown is for people on white flight.Me and the Chinese couple living down the street in Georgetown say hi.

[Singh_21]

Me and the Chinese couple living down the street in Georgetown say hi.

hi. how's it going?

2011
Total population in Ontario
12,028,895

Visible Minorities in Ontario:
2,745,200

Total percentage of visible minorities in Ontario: 22.8%

2011
Total population in Georgetown
55,020

Visible Minorities in Georgetown:
2235

Total percentage of visible minorities in Georgetown: 4.06%


Forget stacking up to Toronto, visible minorities in Georgetown fall well below the entire Ontario Level. Brampton will still have 20%+ white population

[Singh_21]

Me and the Chinese couple living down the street in Georgetown say hi.

Total chinese people in Georgetown are 330 so I am not surprised.

[niroopg]

My neighbour parked his car on his front lawn.

Bylaws are useless without enforcement.

Sumbody call 9-1-1. Shawty fire burning on the dance floor ooh - oh -oh

Just call the cops. They won't know who called.

Everyone on my street calls the cops, and the roads be empty.

[random pattern]

The end result really has nothing to do with race, it's about what type of community you want to live in. As long as our community remains the way that it is, anybody is welcome to come. We like how things are now, and we don't want to mess things up by making the same mistakes Brampton made 30 years ago.

What mistakes were those?

[danfromwaterloo]

What mistakes were those?

The decision to rapidly develop and grow exponentially.

[AV-Fishing]

Why?

Is it because they want to move entire villages from "Pack-istan" by the boat-loads here???

[danfromwaterloo]

Although you say that there isn't any ACTIVE racism, you've admitted that there is "passive racism", using terms like "resentment".

And you wonder why people are criticizing your town?

:lol:

Resentment is definitely present, but it's not synonymous with racism. A lot of people liked what Brampton used to be in the 80s. It was a very different community than what it is now. Ask anybody who grew up there. It's unrecognizable.

[Singh_21]

Resentment is definitely present, but it's not synonymous with racism. A lot of people liked what Brampton used to be in the 80s. It was a very different community than what it is now. Ask anybody who grew up there. It's unrecognizable.

In Russel Peter's words (From his book: Call me Russel: Inside the Outside ):

"So here’s where I let you in on why. To do this, I need to take
you back to the Gates of Bramalea, the complex of townhouses
where I grew up. It was the summer of ’75, and wee Russell Peters,
five yrs old, was riding his bicycle through the neighbourhood.
Just a kid on a bike on a nice summer day, and I rode past this
house on the corner, very close to where I lived. Out on the front
lawn was one of the neighbours, Mr. Gould, and he was watering
his lawn with a garden hose. As I rode past, the man said to me—a
five yr-old child on a bike—“Go home, you fckin’ p..aki.” And
before I knew what was going on, he’d pointed the hose at me.
Now, I’m just five years old, I’m getting sprayed with a garden
hose and I don’t even have a clue what a p..aki is. I was completely
innocent. So in my child’s mind, I looked for a way to comprehend
what was going on, and so I thought to myself, Mr. Gould, our nice
neighbour, is doing me a favour. He’s pointing a hose of cold water
at me because it’s hot outside and he’s helping me cool off.

A lot of racial abuse was directed at me as a kid, but it took a
long time for me to comprehend what it all meant in the big
picture.

II’d gotten used to being yelled at outside the home for my skin
colour, so as a kid I just kind of assumed my mom was yelling at
me for the same reason—for not being white.

A lot has changedsince the late ’70s. When we first moved to
Alot has changed since the late ’70s. When we first moved to
Brampton, it was still just a bedroom community of Scottish,
Irish, English, German and Dutch immigrants. They were scared,
which is ultimately what racism and prejudice is all about: fear.
They were afraid of the changes that were about to come their way.
They only saw the differences between “us” and “them” rather than
the similarities. But as is often the case, the more time you spend
with people from different backgrounds, the more you fnd out
how similar you are.

[random pattern]

The decision to rapidly develop and grow exponentially.
Glad to hear it has nothing to do with immigrants.

[danfromwaterloo]

Glad to hear it has nothing to do with immigrants.

I don't see how Brampton DECIDED to be inundated with immigrants.

[at1212b]

The issue I see is Ontario passed a legislation last year, likely to score voter's points requiring all municipalities to pass laws to allow basement apartments.

Mississauga, Richmond Hill, (and one or two other York region cities I can't remember) have actually passed it recently. I guess the area where they do demand it the most still hasn't gotten passed which is what likely (whether justified or not) screams to some kind of discrimination.

Be interesting to see how the Province can enforce what is generally city jurisdiction. Given that a city's sole source of tax revenue is property taxes, I understand why certain city's do not want to proceed with something that can fundamentally change the economics of it.

[random pattern]

I don't see how Brampton DECIDED to be inundated with immigrants.

On the one hand you say the problem was rapid development but on the other much of your posts imply the issue is immigrants.

[danfromwaterloo]

On the one hand you say the problem was rapid development but on the other much of your posts imply the issue is immigrants.

As I stated in previous posts, the immgrant culture is a large part of the problem. It's just not something that anybody decided to do. It just happened.

[neutral]

I don't see how I being dishonest in any way. That one couple was in fact the couple I referred to. One instance. There is a country element here as half the town is very rural, and they don't like outsiders. Funny enough, that also includes me - they don't like people from the white flight. They like their city the way it was 10 years ago.

This protection of our neighborhoods is nothing nefarious. We dislike what Brampton has become, and seek to protect that. And it has little to do with race. If people of any color want to come to Georgetown, all are welcome, but expect to integrate or receive the cold shoulder. If you want to retain a different way of life, there are plenty of places in the GTA that you'll be able to find birds of your feather.

Of course you don't see how you are being dishonest. I didn't expect any other response. In the response I posted, you spoke nothing of the KKK in Georgetown being a 'joke' like you are saying now. In fact, you said you knew of these stories, and that you knew of a black couple who was denied the ability to buy a house because of what exactly?

This exchange is typical though. Whenever race and racism comes up, the principal players tend to go into denial mode.

But the facts are there. Someone brought up a REAL KKK presence in Georgetown and real race based discrimination. You confirmed hearing that too, and spoke of personally knowing of such an incident, and of course no way suggested that this was isolated. You were confirming what that poster wrote. There are legal ways to maintain certain upkeep of homes, and ensure those who buy in the area do the same. Then there is what you and others acknowledged goes on in Georgetown. Illegal intimidation, and housing discrimination. The criminality of Georgetown seems pretty unCanadian.

[mbg]

Of course you don't see how you are being dishonest. I didn't expect any other response. In the response I posted, you spoke nothing of the KKK in Georgetown being a 'joke' like you are saying now. In fact, you said you knew of these stories, and that you knew of a black couple who was denied the ability to buy a house because of what exactly?

This exchange is typical though. Whenever race and racism comes up, the principal players tend to go into denial mode.

But the facts are there. Someone brought up a REAL KKK presence in Georgetown and real race based discrimination. You confirmed hearing that too, and spoke of personally knowing of such an incident, and of course no way suggested that this was isolated. You were confirming what that poster wrote. There are legal ways to maintain certain upkeep of homes, and ensure those who buy in the area do the same. Then there is what you and others acknowledged goes on in Georgetown. Illegal intimidation, and housing discrimination. The criminality of Georgetown seems pretty unCanadian.

Dan's point is good, though... Georgetown doesn't like outsiders, period.

Its growth is currently limited by water supply (water comes from the ground, not the lake like most other GTA towns). There are going to be a lot of disappointed beard+skinhead types in that place when lake water arrives and allows an explosion of growth to the north and south. Fortunately, they will probably just deal with it by drinking themselves to death and staying in their houses more.

On the other hand, the newcomers may be happy to ditch the water softener.

[neutral]

Dan's point is good, though... Georgetown doesn't like outsiders, period.

Its growth is currently limited by water supply (water comes from the ground, not the lake like most other GTA towns). There are going to be a lot of disappointed beard+skinhead types in that place when lake water arrives and allows an explosion of growth to the north and south. Fortunately, they will probably just deal with it by drinking themselves to death and staying in their houses more.

On the other hand, the newcomers may be happy to ditch the water softener.

The problem with Dan is that he is intentionally misrepresenting what is happening in Georgetown. Not wanting outsiders because you like your town small and quiet, is quite different from posting about a KKK presence and discriminating against certain minority groups. I don't blame people for wanting their small quiet town to stay that way. There are legal ways of attempting that though. I personally can't wait for more development in the area, and hope you are right. An explosion of growth would be great.

[overboost]

14th and Markham Road has gone down the drain in the past 5 years too.



I agree. Look at pmall area. Also 14th and markham road.

[Siskie]

Interesting article I found at http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/022124.html (written by indian immigrant Aditya B.)


I’ve come into contact with Indians of all castes and creeds, political and non-political. Whilst there are many things that divide them, one thing that unites almost every species of Indian is an anti-white animus. Obviously, no statistical evidence is available, but I’ve observed that greater material prosperity, here and in India, seems to correlate positively with anti-white animus. This observation seems to verify Eric Hoffer’s observations about minority discontent; that greater proximity to the majority reinforces the realization that one can never be the majority, no matter how hard one attempts to assimilate. That acute awareness seems to breed discontent.
Reference: http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/022124.html


Almost every Indian I have met, here and in India, has insufferable contempt for whites. They are convinced that they are morally and materially superior to America’s historic majority.
Reference: http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/022124.html

I don't really agree with these comments. While Singh_21 and Katchemash largely display some of the above in the comments they make, I don't think this represents the majority or my friends at least.

[mbg]

The problem with Dan is that he is intentionally misrepresenting what is happening in Georgetown. Not wanting outsiders because you like your town small and quiet, is quite different from posting about a KKK presence and discriminating against certain minority groups. I don't blame people for wanting their small quiet town to stay that way. There are legal ways of attempting that though. I personally can't wait for more development in the area, and hope you are right. An explosion of growth would be great.

You're over-stating the KKK and discrimination aspect, though.

Fact: people in Georgetown are mostly very odd
Fact: the vast majority of people in Georgetown are white, even though just 10 mins down the road in Brampton the majority are non-white
Fact: people in Georgetown make-believe that they live in a small rural community
Fact: lots of people in Georgetown are scared of municipal transit because they think it spreads crime (i.e. brown/black people) even though there's a GO bus going regularly between Toronto and Georgetown, via Brampton
Fact: there's a strong white trash, baseball-cap-and-sandals, pot smoking, drinking vibe in Georgetown. Seems to be more drunk drivers than average.
Fact: crime is low in Georgetown
Not a fact: KKK has a noticeable presence in Georgetown
Not a fact: Open discrimination against non-white people is prevalent in Georgetown

If anything, it's like Japan. They'll probably be very friendly to your face as a non-Japanese but things just won't go your way when dealing with them.

I know white guys who have moved in and out of Georgetown in short order, even at great expense by re-selling their house, just because it's such an odd place.

[konfusion666]

Interesting article I found at http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/022124.html (written by indian immigrant Aditya B.)

I don't really agree with these comments. While Singh_21 and Katchemash largely display some of the above in the comments they make, I don't think this represents the majority or my friends at least.

Scouring the internet looking for racist comments by ethnics, eh? What a noob... you can do that for ANY ethnicity towards ANY OTHER ethnicity.

BTW get your "users" correct, at least. Katchemash is a self-admitted Uyghur... better go scour the internet now looking for other racist Uyghurs to prove your point :lol:

(which former banned user are you, btw? Taxman, is that you? Hitman perhaps?)

[konfusion666]

You're over-stating the KKK and discrimination aspect, though.

Fact: people in Georgetown are mostly very odd
Fact: the vast majority of people in Georgetown are white, even though just 10 mins down the road in Brampton the majority are non-white
Fact: people in Georgetown make-believe that they live in a small rural community
Fact: lots of people in Georgetown are scared of municipal transit because they think it spreads crime (i.e. brown/black people) even though there's a GO bus going regularly between Toronto and Georgetown, via Brampton
Fact: there's a strong white trash, baseball-cap-and-sandals, pot smoking, drinking vibe in Georgetown. Seems to be more drunk drivers than average.
Fact: crime is low in Georgetown
Not a fact: KKK has a noticeable presence in Georgetown
Not a fact: Open discrimination against non-white people is prevalent in Georgetown

If anything, it's like Japan. They'll probably be very friendly to your face as a non-Japanese but things just won't go your way when dealing with them.

I know white guys who have moved in and out of Georgetown in short order, even at great expense by re-selling their house, just because it's such an odd place.

TBH I think Georgetown gets a lot of flak because it's the one "small town" which is reasonably close to Toronto, and to our media apparatus.

The racially-oriented problems that some people have brought up in this thread (in particular; the presence of the KKK) are probably more of an issue in the Tri-Cities area: Guelph, Kitchener, Waterloo.
Why? Because the KKK has a verifiable and definite presence there (a number of RCMP investigations, Canadian Heritage Alliance, Paul Fromm, etc.)

[neutral]

You're over-stating the KKK and discrimination aspect, though.

Fact: people in Georgetown are mostly very odd
Fact: the vast majority of people in Georgetown are white, even though just 10 mins down the road in Brampton the majority are non-white
Fact: people in Georgetown make-believe that they live in a small rural community
Fact: lots of people in Georgetown are scared of municipal transit because they think it spreads crime (i.e. brown/black people) even though there's a GO bus going regularly between Toronto and Georgetown, via Brampton
Fact: there's a strong white trash, baseball-cap-and-sandals, pot smoking, drinking vibe in Georgetown. Seems to be more drunk drivers than average.
Fact: crime is low in Georgetown
Not a fact: KKK has a noticeable presence in Georgetown
Not a fact: Open discrimination against non-white people is prevalent in Georgetown

If anything, it's like Japan. They'll probably be very friendly to your face as a non-Japanese but things just won't go your way when dealing with them.

I know white guys who have moved in and out of Georgetown in short order, even at great expense by re-selling their house, just because it's such an odd place.

We have to be clear though. I am not stating anything about Georgetown and the KKK. I was reposting Dan's response on the matter. Another poster in an older thread said there was a real KKK presence there, and Dan replied that he heard those stories and wrote how minorities are kept out, and mentioned a situation where he knew that happened first hand. I'm just trying to reconcile his claim that Georgetown is a friendly place open to anyone now, with his previous post where he posted about hearing about a KKK presence and knew of a black couple who were denied the ability to purchase a house.

Those are HIS words, not mine. If you personally know that minorities are not being threatened or facing violence, or are not being denied housing, then that's great. But others have said it does happen. Are they lying?

[Piro21]

Scouring the internet looking for racist comments by ethnics, eh? What a noob... you can do that for ANY ethnicity towards ANY OTHER ethnicity.

BTW get your "users" correct, at least. Katchemash is a self-admitted Uyghur... better go scour the internet now looking for other racist Uyghurs to prove your point :lol:

(which former banned user are you, btw? Taxman, is that you? Hitman perhaps?)

What's a Uyghur?

[danfromwaterloo]

We have to be clear though. I am not stating anything about Georgetown and the KKK. I was reposting Dan's response on the matter. Another poster in an older thread said there was a real KKK presence there, and Dan replied that he heard those stories and wrote how minorities are kept out, and mentioned a situation where he knew that happened first hand. I'm just trying to reconcile his claim that Georgetown is a friendly place open to anyone now, with his previous post where he posted about hearing about a KKK presence and knew of a black couple who were denied the ability to purchase a house.

Those are HIS words, not mine. If you personally know that minorities are not being threatened or facing violence, or are not being denied housing, then that's great. But others have said it does happen. Are they lying?

What I have heard of is one concrete example of racism and a whole lot of heresay. I've never seen white hoods or burning crosses, nor have I ever made any comment to the contrary. Georgetown is a very welcoming town, and I really don't think race has anything to do with how you're treated. If you're a first- or second- generation Canadian, and have acclimatized to our culture, you'll be fine. If you're a new immigrant to the country, Georgetown isn't the place for you. Now, you can call that racist or intolerant or what have you, but Brampton is the example of what happens when you openly welcome immigrants to the area, and people who moved here from Brampton won't let it happen again.

[eudaii]

Enough with the brampton threads nobody cares

[mbg]

Enough with the brampton threads nobody cares

Let's talk about fat people at the St Jacobs farmers market then.

[neutral]

What I have heard of is one concrete example of racism and a whole lot of heresay. I've never seen white hoods or burning crosses, nor have I ever made any comment to the contrary. Georgetown is a very welcoming town, and I really don't think race has anything to do with how you're treated. If you're a first- or second- generation Canadian, and have acclimatized to our culture, you'll be fine. If you're a new immigrant to the country, Georgetown isn't the place for you. Now, you can call that racist or intolerant or what have you, but Brampton is the example of what happens when you openly welcome immigrants to the area, and people who moved here from Brampton won't let it happen again.

Ok, so now you admit that what you heard was hearsay and not a joke? Remember earlier in this thread you claimed I was stereotyping, and this KKK stuff was just people 'joking around'? At least now your story has changed to there's no proof of a KKK presence, which is very different from Georgetown being a very welcoming town.

I just found it odd how earlier you were telling other people it's such a great welcoming place and how you are half Jew and look all types of Jewish and you have no problems, and then earlier in another thread you were telling stories of racist incidents and agreeing with hearing about a KKK presence, while describing 'us' ie you and your town as white. Just didn't seem consistent.

So now that we are clear, Georgetown is a place that has very heavy rumors of a KKK presence, known racial housing discrimination, well at least one instance, and is a very warm and welcoming place, unless you are an 'outsider' including whites who are new to the area, or you are a new immigrant, or you are south Asian, or black? Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[danfromwaterloo]

Ok, so now you admit that what you heard was hearsay and not a joke? Remember earlier in this thread you claimed I was stereotyping, and this KKK stuff was just people 'joking around'? At least now your story has changed to there's no proof of a KKK presence, which is very different from Georgetown being a very welcoming town.

I just found it odd how earlier you were telling other people it's such a great welcoming place and how you are half Jew and look all types of Jewish and you have no problems, and then earlier in another thread you were telling stories of racist incidents and agreeing with hearing about a KKK presence, while describing 'us' ie you and your town as white. Just didn't seem consistent.

So now that we are clear, Georgetown is a place that has very heavy rumors of a KKK presence, known racial housing discrimination, well at least one instance, and is a very warm and welcoming place, unless you are an 'outsider' including whites who are new to the area, or you are a new immigrant, or you are south Asian, or black? Thanks for clearing that up for me.

If you want to read into my posts that deeply, you're welcome to do so. Do people joke about the KKK? Yes. Have there been heresay of an actual KKK presence? Yes. Has there been incidents of racism to keep people out? I know of one, so yes. Is it still a welcoming and wonderful place to live? Well, I guess it depends on who you ask. Me? Yes, absolutely. I would recommend it to anybody who hates Brampton. I know there's more than enough people who go out of their way to avoid it.

You can infer widespread racism or hatred or whatever you like but that would be wrong.

If you don't like Georgetown, that's your prerogative. But those that live here love it, and those that visit want to live here. And since you don't, you can choose to model your community the way you like, and leave us to do the same.

[neutral]

If you want to read into my posts that deeply, you're welcome to do so. Do people joke about the KKK? Yes. Have there been heresay of an actual KKK presence? Yes. Has there been incidents of racism to keep people out? I know of one, so yes. Is it still a welcoming and wonderful place to live? Well, I guess it depends on who you ask. Me? Yes, absolutely. I would recommend it to anybody who hates Brampton. I know there's more than enough people who go out of their way to avoid it.

You can infer widespread racism or hatred or whatever you like but that would be wrong.

If you don't like Georgetown, that's your prerogative. But those that live here love it, and those that visit want to live here. And since you don't, you can choose to model your community the way you like, and leave us to do the same.

I am reading your posts, not reading into them. LOL, why are you getting defensive? I don't hate Georgetown, just trying to get clarification from you. I just find it odd that you would agree with someone who says there is a KKK presence in Georgetown, then speak of knowledge of race based housing discrimination, then go on to say that it isn't welcoming to new immigrants, people who are south Asian etc, and then state that Georgetown is friendly and welcoming, and that even a Jew like you gets along dandy. It's contradictory and very confusing.

I'm just trying to find out whether Georgetown is modeling it's community in a legal way, or one where tactics of violence, the threat of violence and housing discrimination is used. Georgetown isn't it's own country. You are still bound by our laws. You people aren't free to come to my country and do whatever you want.

[konfusion666]

What's a Uyghur?

I was thinking of this post (http://forums.redflagdeals.com/ask-me-anything-about-xinjiang-1160179/#post14516275), I just remembered the part about him being from Xinjiang. Uyghur people are described here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people). Sorry for getting my obscure ethnic groups mixed up. :)

And considering it's such an obscure ethnic group, there's a possibility that it's a dupe account from yet another former banned user, so... we'll see :lol:

[danfromwaterloo]

I am reading your posts, not reading into them. LOL, why are you getting defensive? I don't hate Georgetown, just trying to get clarification from you. I just find it odd that you would agree with someone who says there is a KKK presence in Georgetown, then speak of knowledge of race based housing discrimination, then go on to say that it isn't welcoming to new immigrants, people who are south Asian etc, and then state that Georgetown is friendly and welcoming, and that even a Jew like you gets along dandy. It's contradictory and very confusing.

I'm just trying to find out whether Georgetown is modeling it's community in a legal way, or one where tactics of violence, the threat of violence and housing discrimination is used. Georgetown isn't it's own country. You are still bound by our laws. You people aren't free to come to my country and do whatever you want.

Actually, if you read my posts I never agreed with a KKK presence, only that I had heard the rumors.

I don't see your confusion. A place can be both welcoming and yet intolerant because it depends largely on the people who are coming into our community. If you cut your lawn, and say hi to people, hold doors for others, and not otherwise annoy your neighbors, you'll be welcomed regardless of race. If you're new to "Canadian" manners, you'll get the cold shoulder.

Violence? Yeah, you're not trying to put words in my mouth, or infer some nefarious KKK presence. SMH. Your not trying to find the truth - you're trying to validate your own belief that Georgetown is Alabama North. Georgetown is very law-abiding as evidenced by our low crime rate. And, my neighbor who's a cop here tells me most crime is either stupid teen stuff, or criminals headed from Brampton to break in to our cars and houses.

[Kaz]

It seems that every thread neutral is posting in, he tries to twist what others have said to try and match whatever flawed argument he is making.

[BigSplash]

What's a Uyghur?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pHs11LFW7Ao/TeY005-GY0I/AAAAAAAADRE/Yp3ulf75xMo/s1600/MartyFeldmanIgor.jpg

:razz::razz::razz:

[neutral]

A place can be both welcoming and yet intolerant because it depends largely on the people who are coming into our community.

Yeah, that's pretty contradictory. As for the KKK, you at no point denied it as part of your response. It is also confusing that you are convinced there is no KKK presence when at a minimum it's something that circulates quite frequently as rumor. Maybe I should ask someone who is more in the loop. Maybe being Jewish and looking 'totally Jew' they have kept this from you? But it seems like your police friend should be investigating the crimes involving housing discrimination, instead of worrying about petty car break ins, or other hearsay like that?

[neutral]

It seems that every thread neutral is posting in, he tries to twist what others have said to try and match whatever flawed argument he is making.

Consistently off topic you are.

[mbg]

Yeah, that's pretty contradictory. As for the KKK, you at no point denied it as part of your response. It is also confusing that you are convinced there is no KKK presence when at a minimum it's something that circulates quite frequently as rumor. Maybe I should ask someone who is more in the loop. Maybe being Jewish and looking 'totally Jew' they have kept this from you? But it seems like your police friend should be investigating the crimes involving housing discrimination, instead of worrying about petty car break ins, or other hearsay like that?

It circulates because that's what urban legends do :) Or rural legends if you really believe Georgetown is a rural place.

It do make you wonder why police in that place should be getting paid the same as a Toronto cop :)

[neutral]

It circulates because that's what urban legends do :) Or rural legends if you really believe Georgetown is a rural place.

It do make you wonder why police in that place should be getting paid the same as a Toronto cop :)

That might actually make for a better discussion on this board.

[danfromwaterloo]

Yeah, that's pretty contradictory. As for the KKK, you at no point denied it as part of your response. It is also confusing that you are convinced there is no KKK presence when at a minimum it's something that circulates quite frequently as rumor. Maybe I should ask someone who is more in the loop. Maybe being Jewish and looking 'totally Jew' they have kept this from you? But it seems like your police friend should be investigating the crimes involving housing discrimination, instead of worrying about petty car break ins, or other hearsay like that?

Yeah, you sure sound like a person who doesn't twist words. I'll let my friend know your thoughts on what he should be doing. We can share a good chuckle over your adorable bossiness.

And how can I deny (or confirm) anything without evidence of either?

[neutral]

Yeah, you sure sound like a person who doesn't twist words. I'll let my friend know your thoughts on what he should be doing. We can share a good chuckle over your adorable bossiness.

And how can I deny (or confirm) anything without evidence of either?

What words of yours have I twisted? Did you tell your cop friend about the housing discrimination you know happened first hand? Did you have a 'good chuckle' over that too? LOL, friendly bunch for sure. Oh boy, and always speaking poorly of Brampton? Oh dear.

[Kaz]

That's why neutral sees himself as the winner.
It's like asking someone if they still beat their wife.
If you do, you don't or never did, you're screwd... lol
neutral must have been pretty impressive on the debate team.

[danfromwaterloo]

What words of yours have I twisted? Did you tell your cop friend about the housing discrimination you know happened first hand? Did you have a 'good chuckle' over that too? LOL, friendly bunch for sure. Oh boy, and always speaking poorly of Brampton? Oh dear.

Of course you don't see how you are twisting words. I didn't expect any other response.

This exchange is typical though. Whenever race and racism comes up, the principal players tend to go into twist mode.

[danfromwaterloo]

That's why neutral sees himself as the winner.
It's like asking someone if they still beat their wife.
If you do, you don't or never did, you're screwd... lol
neutral must have been pretty impressive on the debate team.

Only if she was also the judge. Everybody else can see what she is doing.

[neutral]

That's why neutral sees himself as the winner.
It's like asking someone if they still beat their wife.
If you do, you don't or never did, you're screwd... lol
neutral must have been pretty impressive on the debate team.

Ok, maybe you can be of some use. No, it would be like you hearing that someone beats their wife, other people hearing that someone beats their wife, and then you setting him up with your sister after he got a divorce.

Dan goes from acknowledging that he's heard of a KKK presence, then sharing his own experience of race based housing discrimination in Georgetown, and at no point saying he doesn't believe these stories to be true, to now saying that Georgetown is an open and welcoming place. Well except to immigrants, south Asians, blacks, well actually anyone who is new to Georgetown. Weird, he also goes from saying he and his town are white, to being a half Jew who looks totally Jewish. Hard to get a straight story outta that guy.

[danfromwaterloo]

Ok, maybe you can be of some use. No, it would be like you hearing that someone beats their wife, other people hearing that someone beats their wife, and then you setting him up with your sister after he got a divorce.

Dan goes from acknowledging that he's heard of a KKK presence, then sharing his own experience of race based housing discrimination in Georgetown, and at no point saying he doesn't believe these stories to be true, to now saying that Georgetown is an open and welcoming place. Well except to immigrants, south Asians, blacks, well actually anyone who is new to Georgetown. Weird, he also goes from saying he and his town are white, to being a half Jew who looks totally Jewish. Hard to get a straight story outta that guy.

Funny - it must be your comprehension level then, because that last paragraph, finally, is closer than you've been to accurate.

And yes, I am white, and half Jewish, and I look Jewish. Bet your skewed logic is having a difficult time understanding that.

[ali123]

Funny - it must be your comprehension level then, because that last paragraph, finally, is closer than you've been to accurate.

And yes, I am white, and half Jewish, and I look Jewish. Bet your skewed logic is having a difficult time understanding that.

Bigger nose and curly hair? Just wondering.

Thanks

[neutral]

Of course you don't see how you are twisting words. I didn't expect any other response.

This exchange is typical though. Whenever race and racism comes up, the principal players tend to go into twist mode.

LOL, yup they sure do.




Originally Posted by Le Loon
The Jews are some of the most paranoid, insular people I have ever met. Go to a synagogue on Saturday and attend Hillel to see what I mean. They think the world hates them and wants to exterminate them and their way of life. Everybody is out to get them, and they have to survive no matter the cost. They are never safe, not even in tolerant lands like Canada. All their religious festivals are about overcoming odds and avoiding genocide. Other religious groups don't have this strain of self preservation in them that the Jews have. Catholics, Protestants, Muslims et. al. don't have a view of the whole world is out to erase them from history.


In fairness, Jews have been persecuted throughout their history, so a cultural paranoia is explainable.

[danfromwaterloo]

Bigger nose and curly hair? Just wondering.

Thanks

Nose. And some Jewish features. No curly hair.

[danfromwaterloo]

LOL, yup they sure do.

So, I was right about your level of reading comprehension. Is English your first language?

[neutral]

So, I was right about your level of reading comprehension. Is English your first language?

For a paranoid man, you seem surprisingly oblivious to the idea that others might interpret your 'jokes' about the KKK a something more serious. That shows a lack of a lot of things, including common sense, unfortunately.

[BigSplash]

So, I was right about your level of reading comprehension. Is English your first language?

danfromwaterloo why do you care if English is his first language or not?
This sounds to me like an incredibly ignor-RANT question.

[Supercooled]

nimby... nuff said.

[danfromwaterloo]

For a paranoid man, you seem surprisingly oblivious to the idea that others might interpret your 'jokes' about the KKK a something more serious. That shows a lack of a lot of things, including common sense, unfortunately.

For a liberal woman, you seem surprisingly oblivious that others might not share your lack of a sense of humor.

Funny thing about common sense is that everybody is always convinced they have it and everybody else doesn't. Even when they obviously have none whatsoever.

[danfromwaterloo]

danfromwaterloo why do you care if English is his first language or not?
This sounds to me like an incredibly ignor-RANT question.

Because she obviously can't comprehend what I'm writing, so I was curious if perhaps she was new to the language.

[neutral]

For a liberal woman, you seem surprisingly oblivious that others might not share your lack of a sense of humor.

Funny thing about common sense is that everybody is always convinced they have it and everybody else doesn't. Even when they obviously have none whatsoever.

Ok friend, you are getting emotional. Unless something material changes, this exchange has probably run its course. Maybe you can go and mow your lawn or something, your neighbors are expecting you.

[danfromwaterloo]

Ok friend, you are getting emotional. Unless something material changes, this exchange has probably run its course. Maybe you can go and mow your lawn or something, your neighbors are expecting you.

Actually, my cop buddy and I are having beers right now. We're enjoying where we live. I hope you can say likewise.

[Sauerkraut]

this exchange has probably run its course.

Probably?

[neutral]

Actually, my cop buddy and I are having beers right now. We're enjoying where we live. I hope you can say likewise.

Plausible. The drinking would explain previous posts. Yep, I'm enjoying. Enjoyed the kibitzing friend.

[bullionaire]

For a liberal woman, you seem surprisingly oblivious that others might not share your lack of a sense of humor.

Funny thing about common sense is that everybody is always convinced they have it and everybody else doesn't. Even when they obviously have none whatsoever.

neutral is a woman? And she defends selective abortions? This is too funny!

Gotta love multiculturalism.

[transitguy1]

too many trucks in Brampton......hogging all the city and causing traffic jams

Brampton should be renamed to TruckVille

[will888]

What are the people in Brampton thinking? If they make it legal, probably every home is going to turn into a low rise apartment. There goes the neighborhood, lol.

[peano]

I lived in Brampton and could not wait to leave. We tried to buy in Georgetown but the prices are ridiculous and still rising. Good thing. Georgetown reminds me of Brampton now with its traffic. Incredibly busy.

And I think Brampton has absorbed the hamlet of Norval on the Georgetown border. That means extremely dense housing and public transit right next to Georgetown. No thanks.

You have to move further away to avoid the Brampton sh1thole.

[danfromwaterloo]

I lived in Brampton and could not wait to leave. We tried to buy in Georgetown but the prices are ridiculous and still rising. Good thing. Georgetown reminds me of Brampton now with its traffic. Incredibly busy.

And I think Brampton has absorbed the hamlet of Norval on the Georgetown border. That means extremely dense housing and public transit right next to Georgetown. No thanks.

You have to move further away to avoid the Brampton sh1thole.

The congestion on the routes out of Georgetown only gets bad during the rush. And it's not horrible, and certainly not near Brampton.

Norval is part of Halton Hills, and is still fine. Brampton has built all the way to its border - Mississauga Rd. It can't expand further until Halton Hills expands its water.

[BluePhirePB]

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/395283_10150557352523071_511143070_8898216_1331487 758_n.jpg

[peanutz]

^ LOL...that's terrible. :razz:

[NG]

Nose. And some Jewish features. No curly hair.

Isn't the nose thing etc just a stereotype?

I only ask because I've on a repeated basis others have assumed I'm Jewish and unless I'm a decedent of one of the Lost Tribes I always just wrote it off as stereotyping.

[danfromwaterloo]

Isn't the nose thing etc just a stereotype?

I only ask because I've on a repeated basis others have assumed I'm Jewish and unless I'm a decedent of one of the Lost Tribes I always just wrote it off as stereotyping.

No, we have some pretty awful noses. It's typically par for the course.

[NG]

No, we have some pretty awful noses. It's typically par for the course.

Hmmm...perhaps I'm part Jewish then. Others certainly assumed that before. Wonder if there's a way to find out for sure...

[CatDog]

Look in your pants

[cheapmeister]

Look in your pants

lol, I see what you did there!

[mbg]

Isn't the nose thing etc just a stereotype?

The nose shape thing isn't a stereotype, but it's just a myth that their noses look that way to better inhale paper bills rapidly and in one piece.

[danfromwaterloo]

The nose shape thing isn't a stereotype, but it's just a myth that their noses look that way to better inhale paper bills rapidly and in one piece.

See, now that's racist. :lol:

[ryan1976]

I saw this thread but in no way do I have time to read the whole thing. As far as legalizing Basement Apartments in Brampton, what difference will that make? Seriously, people don't care if it's legal or not, they'll do it anyways. I can't begin to tell you how many times I am contacted to turn a window into a doorway for basement access. Or when I used to be contacted to install kitchens or bathrooms and the like into a Basement in Brampton. I would tell them on the phone that basement apartments are illegal in Brampton and I am not interested in the project to only hear things like "it's for my mother in-law, or in-laws or family" yet when I talked further, they wanted a security door, or locking door or some type of lockable door system between the main floor and basement. As soon as I heard that I would then ask " if it's for family, why do you need to separate and lock the rest of the house off?" answers varied from , " just in case we go away, the in-laws have a dog/cat, keep the kids out" but majority of the time people would be upset that I wouldn't do the project and I'd hear " what do you care? I pay you, you do what I tell you", or "no no no you're wrong, both my neighbors have basement apartments, and they had permits, it was posted in the window, so don't worry, I'll get the permit you just do the work" I'd ask them if they actually read what the permit was for and if they said yes, I'd then ask for an actual street address so I could call the city by-law and confirm the customer could get a basement apartment cause his neighbors had them. Well, that always prompted a very different type of response, mostly angry, and threatening. I'd apologize and tell them, that there's no way I am willing to risk my companies good reputation and licenses for a project that's not legal. And I'd also ask if it's legal and no problem, then whats the big deal in me contacting the city for a permit? Then it was start a whole issue on it being their home, and they could do what they want as they paid for it and so on and so on. Trying to tell explain that the reason basement apartments are illegal due to safety just didn't work either.

Houses are meant to house a certain amount of individuals. The water systems, the ventilation, fresh air, weight parking and so on. I did a window job in Markham one time and the house was really nice on the outside, but there where a lot of cars. When I went in, WOW, I was shocked. Every room was turned into a self contained apartment. I mean every room. The living room, the family room, they all had mattresses and a hot plate. the only thing communal was the 3 fridges, and the bathrooms. Basement apartments should not be legalized, as it opens the door for too many multi family homes, stress on the infrastructure and safety. Not many people understand that the egress windows in a basement are not for you to get out of in case of a fire, but in fact for the firemen to get into.

If basement apartments are to become legal, it should be done with strict rules.

[BluePhirePB]

I saw this thread but in no way do I have time to read the whole thing. As far as legalizing Basement Apartments in Brampton, what difference will that make? Seriously, people don't care if it's legal or not, they'll do it anyways. I can't begin to tell you how many times I am contacted to turn a window into a doorway for basement access. Or when I used to be contacted to install kitchens or bathrooms and the like into a Basement in Brampton. I would tell them on the phone that basement apartments are illegal in Brampton and I am not interested in the project to only hear things like "it's for my mother in-law, or in-laws or family" yet when I talked further, they wanted a security door, or locking door or some type of lockable door system between the main floor and basement. As soon as I heard that I would then ask " if it's for family, why do you need to separate and lock the rest of the house off?" answers varied from , " just in case we go away, the in-laws have a dog/cat, keep the kids out" but majority of the time people would be upset that I wouldn't do the project and I'd hear " what do you care? I pay you, you do what I tell you", or "no no no you're wrong, both my neighbors have basement apartments, and they had permits, it was posted in the window, so don't worry, I'll get the permit you just do the work" I'd ask them if they actually read what the permit was for and if they said yes, I'd then ask for an actual street address so I could call the city by-law and confirm the customer could get a basement apartment cause his neighbors had them. Well, that always prompted a very different type of response, mostly angry, and threatening. I'd apologize and tell them, that there's no way I am willing to risk my companies good reputation and licenses for a project that's not legal. And I'd also ask if it's legal and no problem, then whats the big deal in me contacting the city for a permit? Then it was start a whole issue on it being their home, and they could do what they want as they paid for it and so on and so on. Trying to tell explain that the reason basement apartments are illegal due to safety just didn't work either.

Houses are meant to house a certain amount of individuals. The water systems, the ventilation, fresh air, weight parking and so on. I did a window job in Markham one time and the house was really nice on the outside, but there where a lot of cars. When I went in, WOW, I was shocked. Every room was turned into a self contained apartment. I mean every room. The living room, the family room, they all had mattresses and a hot plate. the only thing communal was the 3 fridges, and the bathrooms. Basement apartments should not be legalized, as it opens the door for too many multi family homes, stress on the infrastructure and safety. Not many people understand that the egress windows in a basement are not for you to get out of in case of a fire, but in fact for the firemen to get into.

If basement apartments are to become legal, it should be done with strict rules.

+1 very well said! As for their responses to your questions, I'm not surprised. They'll cook up whatever excuse they can think of to get what they want with no regards to the law or rules. Good for you for saying no to these snakes.

[Hitman21]

Allowing basement suites will only make the problem worse since it puts too much pressure on the infrastructure as well as the issue of taxes. I used to live in Brampton and I moved out and would never go back there. The problem is many people dont take care of their houses and the property values decline which isnt fair to the people that have lived there longer.

[danfromwaterloo]

Allowing basement suites will only make the problem worse since it puts too much pressure on the infrastructure as well as the issue of taxes. I used to live in Brampton and I moved out and would never go back there. The problem is many people dont take care of their houses and the property values decline which isnt fair to the people that have lived there longer.

Me too. But as you can see from much of the posts in response, I've been labelled as either racist or intolerant for sharing much of the same opinions.

[Hitman21]

Me too. But as you can see from much of the posts in response, I've been labelled as either racist or intolerant for sharing much of the same opinions.

Multiculturalism helps to bring in more political correctness and people are scared to criticize minorities due to fear of being accused of racism so many instantly shout out racism if there's any criticism. There are lots of people who hate Brampton and its not a minority

[hdave]

I'm Indian and I HATE Brampton.
There are definitely some good parts and good people, but overall, it is a sh*thole.

Most of the "racist" comments are true.
Lots of the Indian people in Brampton aren't interested in trying to blend in with Canadian culture, they want to (and have successfully) turned the place into a mini-India.

As for Georgetown, I have heard that it is filled with racist white people, danfromwaterloo definitely sounds like one of those close minded people to me. And I am not sure why he is talking like some sort of town Ambassador, but just know that he is not.
Everytime I've been there it has been fine. In fact my parent's were looking to buy a house there and everyone was nice, friendly and very helpful, I really liked the small town feel to the place.

[danfromwaterloo]

I'm Indian and I HATE Brampton.
There are definitely some good parts and good people, but overall, it is a sh*thole.

Most of the "racist" comments are true.
Lots of the Indian people in Brampton aren't interested in trying to blend in with Canadian culture, they want to (and have successfully) turned the place into a mini-India.

As for Georgetown, I have heard that it is filled with racist white people, danfromwaterloo definitely sounds like one of those close minded people to me. And I am not sure why he is talking like some sort of town Ambassador, but just know that he is not.
Everytime I've been there it has been fine. In fact my parent's were looking to buy a house there and everyone was nice, friendly and very helpful, I really liked the small town feel to the place.

And what exactly have I said to indicate the closed-mindedness, considering I have essentially said precisely what you just said?

[Hitman21]

I'm Indian and I HATE Brampton.
There are definitely some good parts and good people, but overall, it is a sh*thole.

Most of the "racist" comments are true.
Lots of the Indian people in Brampton aren't interested in trying to blend in with Canadian culture, they want to (and have successfully) turned the place into a mini-India.

As for Georgetown, I have heard that it is filled with racist white people, danfromwaterloo definitely sounds like one of those close minded people to me. And I am not sure why he is talking like some sort of town Ambassador, but just know that he is not.
Everytime I've been there it has been fine. In fact my parent's were looking to buy a house there and everyone was nice, friendly and very helpful, I really liked the small town feel to the place.

I agree with you on Brampton but how is danfromwaterloo a racist or close minded, many people that live in Georgetown used to live in Brampton and the people started coming into Brampton and didnt take care of their houses so property values go down, this causes many people from Jane and Finch to come as well as other areas and crime goes up.

[neutral]

As for Georgetown, I have heard that it is filled with racist white people, danfromwaterloo definitely sounds like one of those close minded people to me. And I am not sure why he is talking like some sort of town Ambassador, but just know that he is not.


Very good observations.

[lip]

Having lived in Brampton, I think the biggest problem with basement apartments is that they overwhelm the surrounding infrastructure.

Most houses in Brampton are estimated to support four to five people. There's, say, 10,000 houses in a given area. That means that the city develops roads, community centres, transit, schooling, hospitals and libraries to support 50,000 people. Now, when a sizeable amount of houses - say 10% - are now supporting a dozen people, that's an extra 7000 people using up the infrastructure. That's a very large reason why Brampton always feels so congested and busy. There's now double the number of parked cars, which often spills out onto roads, making some residential areas virtual parking lots. Also, the class of the area is also changing. By taking a large house, which is traditionally an upper-middle to upper class area, and subdividing it into a rooming house, areas that were supposed to be really nice have turned into ghettos. Springdale, anyone?

I dare anybody to live in Brampton for a little while and tell me that everything I've said isn't bang on. The three problems Brampton has is: a virtual monoculturalism, the refusal of the community as a whole to adopt much Canadian culture, and population density.


When I moved to Brampton about 15 years ago I heard the above and thought it was just nonsense from intolerant people...now after living in this dump for 15 years I cannot wait to get out.
You are bang on...take a walk in any neighbourhood, which actually Brampton has attempted to do a nice job by connecting all the neighbourhoods with parks that connect...you will see big massive houses that look nice from afar but look far from good once up close. It's amazing that with most houses being brick now these days and the lack of requirement to do much painting, many people are so lazy and cheap they cannot get their window sills painted once every 10 years....gardens look in complete dissarray...5 cars parked in driveways. My street has small driveways and thus we do not have this problem as they cannot park 3 families worth of cars.
I'm also sick of going to the hospital in Brampton and having to wait with my small boys for 6 hours because the waiting room is full of old people who have been in this country less than a couple of years....I now just drive straight to creditvalley hospital as I can see a doctor in emergency within an hour or two...

In my opinion after talking with many people from India the problem is simple...back in India, most of these people were very well off and had slaves to do their housework and garden work. They come here and feel that it is beneath them to take a lawnmower to the garden or pick up a brush and paint their house. They are also used to having large families and have their relatives living with them in very large houses. These are just not the way things work in western countries.

Unfortunately these terrible traits are giving many Indians a very poor name with most non-Sikh residents wanting to get out of the city as fast as possible. I don't see this problem with the many immigrants in Brampton from Portugal or Asia...just the Sikh residents. I really don't think they care to conform at all to our ways so the best recipe if you are a resident of Brampton is just to get out.

I just re-read what I wrote and I'm shocked at how intolerant I sound but it's true. I'm actually pissed even more at the Sikh residents in this city for making me feel this way. I've always enjoyed learning about new cultures and interacting with people different from me but when it comes at a price of destroying the city I live in, it sucks.

Brampton sucks.

[cheapmeister]

Why do they only build houses in Brampton? Why don't they build some nice condos like the ones they got near square 1?

[Chigu]

1 & 2. THIS. This is one major thing ive pissed off about brampton. The mayor and her ****tards seems to only care of stuffing brampton with too many people w/o any consideration to urban planning, infrastructures, etc. And you know what? They havent stopped. You'd think they stop selling land and developing them north of sandalwood. Nope. They just sold the apple farm by Major mack and most of the land around there - from Airport Road all the way west to Creditview - have been sold.

So they keep adding all this population - and house prices are going up. Seems like there's an artificial bubble house market in brampton. A house that was worth 275k two years ago, can sell w/o no problem for 400k. WTF?! 400k for a fking house in brampton?! Hey its great if your selling a house. But for future buyers like me (especially as a single dad) there's no way to afford that when your also paying child support. But personally, i wont be living in brampton. I'll move out west to guelph or surrounding areas. Cheaper housing and much more friendly communities.

4. I see this everyday at work. I work @ BCH and ill tell you guys - its insane how much people that comes in ER everyday. And the annoying thing is, 2 out of 10 patients i deal with everyday doesnt speak english. And it doesnt include all the visitors, patients family as well that doesnt speak english. Danfromwaterloo is right, most immigrants here are so entangled within their own community that they dont bother integrating with the other communities at all.


The cost of housing is the issue!! A lot of people (especially those from other countries) don't believe in rent. They view it as throwing money down the drain. So they want to BUY. The issue becomes where to buy? 400k for a house in Brampton? wow that's pretty cheap. You can barely get a detached house 2000sq feet, anywhere in Toronto for that price? North York/Vaugan/Richmond Hill? -> Your'e lucky if you even get a townhouse. Mississauga?? (good luck getting a detached). Milton--> prices have skyrocketed there. So if you WORK in Toronto, Guelph/KW /Cambridge is still far away! 3.5 hour commute each day... no thank you.

That leaves very few areas that have public transportation into the City. I guess Whitby/Oshawa are also an option.

PS> I used to live in Ajax, and loved it there!

[lip]

Why do they only build houses in Brampton? Why don't they build some nice condos like the ones they got near square 1?

They are building on precious farmland as fast as they can...don't you worry!
As well, with the province forcing Brampton to give in to all developers wishes, they are building high rises in the middle of residencial areas that have always been deemed lowrise areas.

I think Brampton could build more high rises but there is more money for developers initially in building houses and I think that is what the largest immigrant class (Sikh) wants...they don't seem interested in apartments

[gibguitar]

There's a difference between talking and criticizing the race of people and the culture of people. I'm glad most people in this thread aren't trying to be PC, because political correctness is ridiculous. Instead of discussing cultural differences openly, the race card almost always comes out to squash any talk to solve social problems.

This thread, in my opinion, has actually been really surprising. I'm so used to people beating around the bush and trying to be so politically correct. This thread is refreshing.

[Hitman21]

There's a difference between talking and criticizing the race of people and the culture of people. I'm glad most people in this thread aren't trying to be PC, because political correctness is ridiculous. Instead of discussing cultural differences openly, the race card almost always comes out to squash any talk to solve social problems.

This thread, in my opinion, has actually been really surprising. I'm so used to people beating around the bush and trying to be so politically correct. This thread is refreshing.

Agreed. I have been a big critic of Brampton and many times when I talk to people I get accused of being a racist even though I just criticize the city.

[weedb0y]

The cost of housing is the issue!! A lot of people (especially those from other countries) don't believe in rent. They view it as throwing money down the drain. So they want to BUY. The issue becomes where to buy? 400k for a house in Brampton? wow that's pretty cheap. You can barely get a detached house 2000sq feet, anywhere in Toronto for that price? North York/Vaugan/Richmond Hill? -> Your'e lucky if you even get a townhouse. Mississauga?? (good luck getting a detached). Milton--> prices have skyrocketed there. So if you WORK in Toronto, Guelph/KW /Cambridge is still far away! 3.5 hour commute each day... no thank you.

That leaves very few areas that have public transportation into the City. I guess Whitby/Oshawa are also an option.

PS> I used to live in Ajax, and loved it there!

Find me a house for $400K in Brampton. A detached house. I know because I've been looking. If you aren't looking at a dump, most townhouses even start at 400K (even in brampton!) Milton is also considered Punjab 2 with lots of population moving there (hence, the price skyrocketing)

Average semi/detached is 450K easily unless you are looking at a dump that needs $$$ in maintainence. Townhouses are a different story and I would imagine that it would be a better buy since people can't stuff 17 people in one. lol

[weedb0y]

They are building on precious farmland as fast as they can...don't you worry!
As well, with the province forcing Brampton to give in to all developers wishes, they are building high rises in the middle of residencial areas that have always been deemed lowrise areas.

I think Brampton could build more high rises but there is more money for developers initially in building houses and I think that is what the largest immigrant class (Sikh) wants...they don't seem interested in apartments

+1 condos and townhouses wouldn't fly when they want to share a house with 17 of their closest cousins.

[Piro21]

I saw this thread but in no way do I have time to read the whole thing. As far as legalizing Basement Apartments in Brampton, what difference will that make? Seriously, people don't care if it's legal or not, they'll do it anyways. I can't begin to tell you how many times I am contacted to turn a window into a doorway for basement access. Or when I used to be contacted to install kitchens or bathrooms and the like into a Basement in Brampton. I would tell them on the phone that basement apartments are illegal in Brampton and I am not interested in the project to only hear things like "it's for my mother in-law, or in-laws or family" yet when I talked further, they wanted a security door, or locking door or some type of lockable door system between the main floor and basement. As soon as I heard that I would then ask " if it's for family, why do you need to separate and lock the rest of the house off?" answers varied from , " just in case we go away, the in-laws have a dog/cat, keep the kids out" but majority of the time people would be upset that I wouldn't do the project and I'd hear " what do you care? I pay you, you do what I tell you", or "no no no you're wrong, both my neighbors have basement apartments, and they had permits, it was posted in the window, so don't worry, I'll get the permit you just do the work" I'd ask them if they actually read what the permit was for and if they said yes, I'd then ask for an actual street address so I could call the city by-law and confirm the customer could get a basement apartment cause his neighbors had them. Well, that always prompted a very different type of response, mostly angry, and threatening. I'd apologize and tell them, that there's no way I am willing to risk my companies good reputation and licenses for a project that's not legal. And I'd also ask if it's legal and no problem, then whats the big deal in me contacting the city for a permit? Then it was start a whole issue on it being their home, and they could do what they want as they paid for it and so on and so on. Trying to tell explain that the reason basement apartments are illegal due to safety just didn't work either.

Houses are meant to house a certain amount of individuals. The water systems, the ventilation, fresh air, weight parking and so on. I did a window job in Markham one time and the house was really nice on the outside, but there where a lot of cars. When I went in, WOW, I was shocked. Every room was turned into a self contained apartment. I mean every room. The living room, the family room, they all had mattresses and a hot plate. the only thing communal was the 3 fridges, and the bathrooms. Basement apartments should not be legalized, as it opens the door for too many multi family homes, stress on the infrastructure and safety. Not many people understand that the egress windows in a basement are not for you to get out of in case of a fire, but in fact for the firemen to get into.

If basement apartments are to become legal, it should be done with strict rules.

This is very well said. There really should be an effort to actually enforce these laws. The CRA should set up a joint organization with the municipal government to perform regular audits. That would cut off most of them without needing to set foot on the properties in question.

[danfromwaterloo]

I just re-read what I wrote and I'm shocked at how intolerant I sound but it's true. I'm actually pissed even more at the Sikh residents in this city for making me feel this way. I've always enjoyed learning about new cultures and interacting with people different from me but when it comes at a price of destroying the city I live in, it sucks.

Brampton sucks.

Watch out. People on here will call you a racist or intolerant. Until they have to live there and realize its true. Not everything is as rosy as neutral would have you believe. Although I suspect she has never been there.

[paradigmGT3]

Find me a house for $400K in Brampton. A detached house. I know because I've been looking. If you aren't looking at a dump, most townhouses even start at 400K (even in brampton!) Milton is also considered Punjab 2 with lots of population moving there (hence, the price skyrocketing)

Average semi/detached is 450K easily unless you are looking at a dump that needs $$$ in maintainence. Townhouses are a different story and I would imagine that it would be a better buy since people can't stuff 17 people in one. lol

Thats awesome news. Hopefully I can convince my parents to sell their 3000 sq ft house that sits at the end of a court on a massive lot for some good coin, and get them to downsize into a better city.

The never ending cycle of immigrants bringing their disgusting traits into Canada will never end... this is something that us westerners will need to learn to live with. The only thing you can do is move youself into a much more expensive area where recently landed immigrants cannot afford to be (or do not see value in the area).

[CatDog]

Average semi/detached is 450K easily unless you are looking at a dump that needs $$$ in maintainence. Townhouses are a different story and I would imagine that it would be a better buy since people can't stuff 17 people in one. lol


Bramptoners will always find a way.

Imagine being attached to a house like that? No thank you.

[paradigmGT3]

prices in brampton could be 1 million for an average home, but the typical brampton resident will still easily afford it by packing in 90 of their closest relatives. thats basically how they afford the homes they have now.

[Becks]

Densification is seemingly the eco way of the future. When Vancouver legalized basement suites, the obvious consequences were more parked cars, more congestion, more dog poop, and not knowing who anyone is because tenants always change after a year or so. However, what's also happening at the same time is that people are buying houses in the outskirts of town because they want a big house and yard. So, not only is there densification happening, but there is also urban sprawl. The basement renters next door currently look like ex-Surrey residents and are always smoking outside. The house next to them has 2 rental suites (it's only legal to have one). If there's a condo tower going up, you can bet that there's going to be a lot more traffic in that area. Overall, basement suites offer low rent, and there is always a need for affordable housing. The only way to live in a "ritzy" area is to keep on moving, because neighbourhoods always change. Unfortunately, living in an increasingly urbanized area goes hand in hand with increased litter, traffic, crime, greed, scammers, sex offenders, and uncaring rude strangers! Brampton is not re-inventing the wheel here. The only thing you can do is create the change that you want. If you want friendlier neighbours, you have to take the initiative to say hi to strangers instead of waiting for them to say hi to you. If you don't like all the cars, then you should try walking yourself more often, etc.

[Chigu]

Find me a house for $400K in Brampton. A detached house. I know because I've been looking. If you aren't looking at a dump, most townhouses even start at 400K (even in brampton!) Milton is also considered Punjab 2 with lots of population moving there (hence, the price skyrocketing)

Average semi/detached is 450K easily unless you are looking at a dump that needs $$$ in maintainence. Townhouses are a different story and I would imagine that it would be a better buy since people can't stuff 17 people in one. lol

I was just responding to a previous post, where he mentioned a house in BRampton was 400k. I have no doubt that, 400k will get you very little nowadays.

[flashy_mcflash]

Wow, you can't even get a detached in Brampton for 400K? I knew it was bad out there but not THAT bad.

[hdave]

And what exactly have I said to indicate the closed-mindedness, considering I have essentially said precisely what you just said?

Sorry if I offended you, I really didn't mean to, just an observation on my part, especially since we both agree on Brampton and come from different places/backgrounds.
There is too much to quote/analyze, and I am too lazy to do that.
You haven't outright said anything, but just a racial undertone you have and the way you word things.

[danfromwaterloo]

Sorry if I offended you, I really didn't mean to, just an observation on my part, especially since we both agree on Brampton and come from different places/backgrounds.
There is too much to quote/analyze, and I am too lazy to do that.
You haven't outright said anything, but just a racial undertone you have and the way you word things.

So, I've got a racial undertone to my posts, yet you stated yourself:


Most of the "racist" comments are true.
Lots of the Indian people in Brampton aren't interested in trying to blend in with Canadian culture, they want to (and have successfully) turned the place into a mini-India.

So, if racist comments are true, then the best you can accuse me of is simply stating the truth - however unpalatable it may sound.

[flashy_mcflash]

The same is true of Cambridge, Ontario where white Canadians have settled and generally prefer not to mix with minorities, like they want to turn it into a mini-England with their cobblestone streets and Stratford festival.

[ashs]

Unfortunately these terrible traits are giving many Indians a very poor name with most non-Sikh residents wanting to get out of the city as fast as possible. I don't see this problem with the many immigrants in Brampton from Portugal or Asia...just the Sikh residents. I really don't think they care to conform at all to our ways so the best recipe if you are a resident of Brampton is just to get out.

I just re-read what I wrote and I'm shocked at how intolerant I sound but it's true. I'm actually pissed even more at the Sikh residents in this city for making me feel this way. I've always enjoyed learning about new cultures and interacting with people different from me but when it comes at a price of destroying the city I live in, it sucks.

Brampton sucks.

You can gereralize Sikhs all you want. Goto Castlemore or Caledon or B.C. for that matter and you will find Sikhs who take care in their homes and are proud of their property. Brampton is the way it is now because politicians wanted it to be this way. Subsidizing homes for Jane and Finch residence did not help, and Sikhs have been in Brampton 30 years ago. I lived in Springdale 10 years ago and it was great but I saw what happened and I left (as I did in Rexdale and as I did in North York); now I live on a tree farm near Orangeville, so please stop generalizing my community. The reason people are the way they are is because a lot of factors. Immigrants care about surviving in a new country the kids of immigrants can focus on the finer details. You can blame the Sikhs all you want but we have contributed a lot to Canada.


Heres my generalization for you, most white people of all other people judge people the most based on their appearance, they almost always will judge a "book" solely on it appearance. I grew up around white people (Peterboro, Ont. I loved it there) but being around coloured people (yup even black people) has its advantages, you tend to see the true nature of people; in the end we all want whats best for our kids and to live good lives(without being treated as second class citizens in our own country).

[Sauerkraut]

The same is true of Cambridge, Ontario where white Canadians have settled and generally prefer not to mix with minorities, like they want to turn it into a mini-England with their cobblestone streets and Stratford festival.

Uh, the Stratford festival is held in...wait for it....um....gee I think it starts with an "S".

Alex, I'll try Ontario festivals not held in Cambridge for $1,000

[danfromwaterloo]

Uh, the Stratford festival is held in...wait for it....um....gee I think it starts with an "S".

Alex, I'll try Ontario festivals not held in Cambridge for $1,000

^^^ someone doesn't realize that Stratford is just a part of Cambridge.

Only, ya know, 100 kms or so away from it. But close enough.

[J W]

This thread was a good read.

From what I've been told, brown people (sorry for using brown...but if us Asians all look alike, then brown people all look alike too =P) are able to fit multiple families in one home not only because of cost savings, but also because they are able to to put up with it. Call it their "culture" if you will or what they are familiar with. Of course, those who have been in Canada longer hate this mentality from what I'm told.

Earlier in this thread there was mention that it is not just Brampton, but also Markham. I would think it might be true in parts of Markham, but it's probably the same type of people from Brampton (you guess the colour). From what I know, no way East Asians will do this, they wouldn't put up with multiple families in one home. Most Hong Kongers came before 2000 and they were either well off, or if they weren't, they were used to small cramped places so would choose a condo/town/semi whatever. Most of the East Asians after 2000 are from China and for the most part, they are the best of the best and extremely rich. The real estate boom in Markham is largely because of these people imo. There are lots of situations where the male stays in China, and the female/children move in first, buy the home, hence you see home prices increase and all these Chinese ladies driving gigantic vehicles like X6s. That story recently about a home selling for $1.2M that was listed at $720K, that's pretty typical. A lot of Chinese students are well off back home so their parents would just buy homes/cars with cash straight up.

So a lot of what's been said in this thread about brown people in Brampton, is true imo. There's no way around it. It's exactly why it's called Browntown and why many people are forced to shy away from it (i.e. property values).

[paradigmGT3]

This thread was a good read.

From what I've been told, brown people (sorry for using brown...but if us Asians all look alike, then brown people all look alike too =P) are able to fit multiple families in one home not only because of cost savings, but also because they are able to to put up with it. Call it their "culture" if you will or what they are familiar with. Of course, those who have been in Canada longer hate this mentality from what I'm told.

Earlier in this thread there was mention that it is not just Brampton, but also Markham. I would think it might be true in parts of Markham, but it's probably the same type of people from Brampton (you guess the colour). From what I know, no way East Asians will do this, they wouldn't put up with multiple families in one home. Most Hong Kongers came before 2000 and they were either well off, or if they weren't, they were used to small cramped places so would choose a condo/town/semi whatever. Most of the East Asians after 2000 are from China and for the most part, they are the best of the best and extremely rich. The real estate boom in Markham is largely because of these people imo. There are lots of situations where the male stays in China, and the female/children move in first, buy the home, hence you see home prices increase and all these Chinese ladies driving gigantic vehicles like X6s. That story recently about a home selling for $1.2M that was listed at $720K, that's pretty typical. A lot of Chinese students are well off back home so their parents would just buy homes/cars with cash straight up.

So a lot of what's been said in this thread about brown people in Brampton, is true imo. There's no way around it. It's exactly why it's called Browntown and why many people are forced to shy away from it (i.e. property values).

I guess you have never been to many parts of markham and scarborough where these larger houses are divided up into multiple family dwellings for asian people. I bought some items from an asian I met off kijiji a few months ago and had to go into the house to retrieve it. In the home there were about 30 chinese people who lived there, and the driveway was crammed with cars. This problem isn't only a "brown" problem. And stop fronting like all chinese imports are super rich after 2000 - this simply is not the case.

[paradigmGT3]

You can gereralize Sikhs all you want. Goto Castlemore or Caledon or B.C. for that matter and you will find Sikhs who take care in their homes and are proud of their property. Brampton is the way it is now because politicians wanted it to be this way. Subsidizing homes for Jane and Finch residence did not help, and Sikhs have been in Brampton 30 years ago. I lived in Springdale 10 years ago and it was great but I saw what happened and I left (as I did in Rexdale and as I did in North York); now I live on a tree farm near Orangeville, so please stop generalizing my community. The reason people are the way they are is because a lot of factors. Immigrants care about surviving in a new country the kids of immigrants can focus on the finer details. You can blame the Sikhs all you want but we have contributed a lot to Canada.

Obviously you haven't taken a stroll through castlemore lately. Same problem as any other part of brampton - large houses being filled with 20+ people, lawns that are never cared for, and the overall exterior looking like garbage. And why did you leave Springdale for? Because of all of the Sikhs who couldn't care for the appearance of their homes, parking cars on lawns, etc? The place is a dump for the same reason the rest of Brampton is.



Heres my generalization for you, most white people of all other people judge people the most based on their appearance, they almost always will judge a "book" solely on it appearance. I grew up around white people (Peterboro, Ont. I loved it there) but being around coloured people (yup even black people) has its advantages, you tend to see the true nature of people; in the end we all want whats best for our kids and to live good lives(without being treated as second class citizens in our own country).
Even black people?? Exactly what is this supposed to mean?

[ashs]

Obviously you haven't taken a stroll through castlemore lately. Same problem as any other part of brampton - large houses being filled with 20+ people, lawns that are never cared for, and the overall exterior looking like garbage. And why did you leave Springdale for? Because of all of the Sikhs who couldn't care for the appearance of their homes, parking cars on lawns, etc? The place is a dump for the same reason the rest of Brampton is.


Even black people?? Exactly what is this supposed to mean?


The houses are filled with parents and their kids, and sometimes the kids get married. I think this is a good thing I encouraged my students (I'm a teacher) to live with their parents for some time as it helps financially as well as the parents babysit their kids. People born in Canada with good jobs will take care of their house and their jobs, immigrants have better things to worry about. btw it takes me 7 hrs to cut my lawn, I then do the pruning and weed work and I enjoy it, but the joy of living in the country is I don't have neighbours critiquing my lifestyle.

I left Brampton because of the congestion, plus I'm a country boy(parents were farmers in India) and wanted over 50 acres.

it means that living with them has advantages as they are real to your face.

[Ziggy007]

I just checked MLS and found dozens of detached houses in Brampton priced under $400k, so I am not too sure what this guy is talking about right now.

Basic examples - 379
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11776996&PidKey=-621048873

314 -
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11811999&PidKey=1036451148

Don't know where that other guy was looking, but I won't bother listing everything I see on MLS...

[Hitman21]

The houses are filled with parents and their kids, and sometimes the kids get married. I think this is a good thing I encouraged my students (I'm a teacher) to live with their parents for some time as it helps financially as well as the parents babysit their kids. People born in Canada with good jobs will take care of their house and their jobs, immigrants have better things to worry about. btw it takes me 7 hrs to cut my lawn, I then do the pruning and weed work and I enjoy it, but the joy of living in the country is I don't have neighbours critiquing my lifestyle.

I left Brampton because of the congestion, plus I'm a country boy(parents were farmers in India) and wanted over 50 acres.

it means that living with them has advantages as they are real to your face.

What do you think caused the congestion, it was too many people in the city because the houses are filled up along with basements

[J W]

I guess you have never been to many parts of markham and scarborough where these larger houses are divided up into multiple family dwellings for asian people. I bought some items from an asian I met off kijiji a few months ago and had to go into the house to retrieve it. In the home there were about 30 chinese people who lived there, and the driveway was crammed with cars. This problem isn't only a "brown" problem. And stop fronting like all chinese imports are super rich after 2000 - this simply is not the case.
BTW, I'm Chinese. Where do you think all my Chinese friends live haha? I think I've driven around Markham enough...

Anyways are these rental units? Because in all honesty, most Asians (especially Japanese Korean Chinese) will almost never want multiple families to live under the same roof. It just is not common. I however don't know much about Vietnamese or the Phillippines. On the other hand, most Indian people I've spoke to about this can confirm multiple families in one roof is predominant in their culture, including relatives/friends of theirs, and most agree it is a "brown" problem.

Well, I really do think most of the Chinese immigrants nowadays are rich. The people coming here come from the big cities of China and yes, they have money.

[Siskie]

What I don't get is that everyone is saying that Brampton is only brown people but these statistics say otherwise:

http://www.citystats.ca/city/Ontario/graph.php?id=3521010&cma_code=0&grn=4

http://www.citystats.ca/city/Ontario/graph.php?id=3521010&cma_code=0&grn=14

Is there a large population of illegals living in Brampton or something? Perhaps in these basements? Maybe people are worried about that and that's why they are moving? The statistics compared to the comments about Brampton just doesn't make sense.

Yes I know these stats are from 2006, but it's not that far back.

[danfromwaterloo]

Yes I know these stats are from 2006, but it's not that far back.

Two things about your notes:

1. Census is done through voluntary disclosure. Often, these numbers will be misrepresented by households with basement apartments, or altogether not filled out.

2. The population since 2006 has increased by 20% (100,000 new residents to the area). I'm going to go out on a limb and say a majority of those new residents are visible minorities, further skewing the population. If we say something like 80% of new residents are South Asian, that could move the numbers to make South Asian the majority in the city. Keep in mind, as well, the "white flight" that's going on, further eroding the white numbers. So, there could have been an influx of 160,000 people coming into Brampton, strongly predominantly South Asian, with 60,000 white people moving to Georgetown, Oakville, Burlington, and Milton. That would distort the numbers greatly. I can tell you that, since 2006, the numbers have increased dramatically in the area.

[weedb0y]

Thats awesome news. Hopefully I can convince my parents to sell their 3000 sq ft house that sits at the end of a court on a massive lot for some good coin, and get them to downsize into a better city.

The never ending cycle of immigrants bringing their disgusting traits into Canada will never end... this is something that us westerners will need to learn to live with. The only thing you can do is move youself into a much more expensive area where recently landed immigrants cannot afford to be (or do not see value in the area).

Although my experience is based on Brampton border near Mississauga. Prices are simliar to Mississauga in that region. Springdale might be totally different. Although, detached in that region is 550K+. (Derry/407 etc etc).

[discostupid]

6 years is a long ***** time

you do know that human gestation period is 9 months right?

[Ironsmack]

I just checked MLS and found dozens of detached houses in Brampton priced under $400k, so I am not too sure what this guy is talking about right now.

Basic examples - 379
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11776996&PidKey=-621048873

314 -
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11811999&PidKey=1036451148


Don't know where that other guy was looking, but I won't bother listing everything I see on MLS...


That's from the old brampton. Its still cheaper, but you do get what you pay for.



Wow, you can't even get a detached in Brampton for 400K? I knew it was bad out there but not THAT bad.


Find me a house for $400K in Brampton. A detached house. I know because I've been looking. If you aren't looking at a dump, most townhouses even start at 400K (even in brampton!) Milton is also considered Punjab 2 with lots of population moving there (hence, the price skyrocketing)

Average semi/detached is 450K easily unless you are looking at a dump that needs $$$ in maintainence. Townhouses are a different story and I would imagine that it would be a better buy since people can't stuff 17 people in one. lol

Here's an example...

http://www.realtor.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?&PropertyId=11835156&PidKey=1842493427

Here's a few more:

http://www.realtor.ca/PropertyResults.aspx?&vs=Residential&ret=300&curPage=propertySearch.aspx&sts=2-0&beds=3-0&baths=2-0&bt=1&atsg=%2c3&air=1&ci=brampton&pro=2&mp=275000-500000-0&mrt=0-0-4&trt=2&of=1&ps=25&o=D

The 400k's houses are usually found on the newer subdivision. I live with my parents in springdale and the housing market here, is in a bubble IMO. My neighbour across me, sold their house for $418k (w/o a finish basement) almost a year ago. The neighbour 2 doors from me, sold their's for around $406k 8 months ago. Now, they had their houses listed and was sold within 2 weeks. The neighbour across from me, actually had a bidding war from 2 families trying to get their house.

Our realtor (based on the market) pegs my parents house for around $420k. More if they plan to finish the basement. They've been here for almost 3 years. They've bought their house for $275k.

[mbg]

Even black people?? Exactly what is this supposed to mean?

It means that, to remove all doubt, it is possible to have a positive experience being around black people.

[ibeblunt]

It means that, to remove all doubt, it is possible to have a positive experience being around black people.


what does black people have to do with the discussion at hand? why are they on his mind? he claims others are unfairly targeting his people yet doesn't hesitate to throw other minorities under the bus.


sikhs have destroyed brampton.... that is a fact.

[paradigmGT3]

Is there a large population of illegals living in Brampton or something? Perhaps in these basements?

Yes there are a lot of illegals living in brampton, hiding in basements. Many people here will chime in to say otherwise, most of them either have illegals living in their own houses or don't know people living in brampton.

[paradigmGT3]

sikhs have destroyed brampton.... that is a fact.

This I agree with, and so does most anyone else that isn't Sikh. Too bad they will never see it this way.

[mtmp5k]

them darn poonjabs and baba ganooshes I tell ya

[mbg]

them darn poonjabs and baba ganooshes I tell ya

poonophobe

[ashs]

what does black people have to do with the discussion at hand? why are they on his mind? he claims others are unfairly targeting his people yet doesn't hesitate to throw other minorities under the bus.


sikhs have destroyed brampton.... that is a fact.


I mentioned black people because I said I'd rather live and work among brown and black people because from day 1 they will not judge my appearance, whereas most white people by default will judge my appearance from day 1.

And your entitled to your opinion on Sikhs, but I think we have created many businesses and thrived in Canada in the time we have been here (myself am a proud Canadian, its just too bad you don't see us past our appearance. If your view is based on new immigrants that fine I understand they have a learning curve and are hard to deal with(they are) but I don't think that's your beef, I think your issue is with assimilation, and because Sikhs "look" and practice a different faith. We will never be "assimilated" the muslims couldn't do it what makes you think you can? but we will work hard, die for this country and be proud Canadians.

[aviador]

Off course these shadowy rental subdivisions must be ruled to prevent current abuses. Basement, floor, attic, etc. subdivisions for rent and profit must be covered by by-laws.

The problem with these subdivisions is the pauperization of the urban space, like the poor areas in Hong Kong or the favelas in Brazil. Overcrowded houses, abusive landowners, poor building standards, social degeneration, etc.

A real solution is the construction of new high-rise rental properties.

[weedb0y]

That's from the old brampton. Its still cheaper, but you do get what you pay for.






Here's an example...

http://www.realtor.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?&PropertyId=11835156&PidKey=1842493427

Here's a few more:

http://www.realtor.ca/PropertyResults.aspx?&vs=Residential&ret=300&curPage=propertySearch.aspx&sts=2-0&beds=3-0&baths=2-0&bt=1&atsg=%2c3&air=1&ci=brampton&pro=2&mp=275000-500000-0&mrt=0-0-4&trt=2&of=1&ps=25&o=D

The 400k's houses are usually found on the newer subdivision. I live with my parents in springdale and the housing market here, is in a bubble IMO. My neighbour across me, sold their house for $418k (w/o a finish basement) almost a year ago. The neighbour 2 doors from me, sold their's for around $406k 8 months ago. Now, they had their houses listed and was sold within 2 weeks. The neighbour across from me, actually had a bidding war from 2 families trying to get their house.

Our realtor (based on the market) pegs my parents house for around $420k. More if they plan to finish the basement. They've been here for almost 3 years. They've bought their house for $275k.

That's pretty decent, old semis can be picked up for 340k in Mississauga as well but I steer away from them due to my lack of house maintenance experience. Otherwise my bud had picked up a detached near Square one fo. 400k in Mississauga. He has had to spend another 40k on it already.

What my point is that property values are still rising in Brampton.

[Ziggy007]

That's pretty decent, old semis can be picked up for 340k in Mississauga as well but I steer away from them due to my lack of house maintenance experience. Otherwise my bud had picked up a detached near Square one fo. 400k in Mississauga. He has had to spend another 40k on it already.

What my point is that property values are still rising in Brampton.

Can you please show me where property values are dropping?

In Toronto 400k would barely buy you a run down semi, any decent detached home (needing a bit of work) would be going for 550-600 in the city. I read articles on the Globe every day about houses going for hundreds of thousands more than ask in TO.

[Chigu]

This thread was a good read.

From what I've been told, brown people (sorry for using brown...but if us Asians all look alike, then brown people all look alike too =P) are able to fit multiple families in one home not only because of cost savings, but also because they are able to to put up with it. Call it their "culture" if you will or what they are familiar with. Of course, those who have been in Canada longer hate this mentality from what I'm told.

Earlier in this thread there was mention that it is not just Brampton, but also Markham. I would think it might be true in parts of Markham, but it's probably the same type of people from Brampton (you guess the colour). From what I know, no way East Asians will do this, they wouldn't put up with multiple families in one home. Most Hong Kongers came before 2000 and they were either well off, or if they weren't, they were used to small cramped places so would choose a condo/town/semi whatever. Most of the East Asians after 2000 are from China and for the most part, they are the best of the best and extremely rich. The real estate boom in Markham is largely because of these people imo. There are lots of situations where the male stays in China, and the female/children move in first, buy the home, hence you see home prices increase and all these Chinese ladies driving gigantic vehicles like X6s. That story recently about a home selling for $1.2M that was listed at $720K, that's pretty typical. A lot of Chinese students are well off back home so their parents would just buy homes/cars with cash straight up.

So a lot of what's been said in this thread about brown people in Brampton, is true imo. There's no way around it. It's exactly why it's called Browntown and why many people are forced to shy away from it (i.e. property values).

You are a little off base here, you are right that brown people are more likely to live with family (I'm brown). We wouldn't even think of putting the people who raised us in a nursing home. My parents are more than capable, but eventually they will move in with me (my wife and daughter). East asians may not want to live with family (or if they do, stick them in the garage (http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/02/28/couple-charged-for-keeping-mother-in-uninsulated-garage-since-november/), but they have no problem rooming in a house with 20 other strangers. My cousin has been living at Kennedy and Steeles for almost 25 years, and he is VERY close to PMALL. There have been some houses on his street converted to 'rooming' houses for chinese immigrants coming from CHINA, he has a corner lot, and often times he sees some of these people during the summer on his lawn sitting under the tree that is close to the curb.

I think it boils down to 2 things.

1) New immigrants who enter the country will feel much more comfortable living with people from the same country/language etc, at least to start out with. Especially for moral support, if they have questions, or need help.
2) Due to the increasing prices of housing, most immigrants who want to own, can only afford a place in their chosen community with multiple people working and living, or in some cases paying for a room in an illegal boarding house.

I understand #1, because I am currently living in another country for work, and although I am learning the language, I am not able to carry on a full conversation. Thus, it's easier to gravitate towards the expat community who speak English. If I need to know where to find things, or how to go about doing/planning something it's much easier to communicate. I have a new respect for immigrants, because I am pretty much doing the same thing but without having their constraints (I have a good job and am making good $, and also have the support system of the people I work with).

[elmst200]

Anyways are these rental units? Because in all honesty, most Asians (especially Japanese Korean Chinese) will almost never want multiple families to live under the same roof. It just is not common.

Multi-family dwelling is very common in Chinese communities. You need to visit parks/schools in any chinese heavey neighbourhoods to see how many old people are gathering there on a daily basis, almost all of them do not speak english, they are all living with their grown-up children under the same roof; and their work is to take care of their grandchildren, provide meals and/or do household chores.


Well, I really do think most of the Chinese immigrants nowadays are rich. The people coming here come from the big cities of China and yes, they have money.
This is totally baseless.

[spike1128]

Multi-family dwelling is very common in Chinese communities. You need to visit parks/schools in any chinese heavey neighbourhoods to see how many old people are gathering there on a daily basis, almost all of them do not speak english, they are all living with their grown-up children under the same roof; and their work is to take care of their grandchildren, provide meals and/or do household chores.


This is totally baseless.

1) Multi-family in Chinese communities. Only mainland Chinese communities have old people who can't speak English looking after their grand children because they can't afford daycare. Taiwan/Sinapore/Hong Kong Chinese don't live multi-generation under one roof.

2) Rich Chinese goes to Vancouver, all mega rich rich rich. Deadbeats come to Toronto, of course some are rich but not mega rich.

[elmst200]

1. we're talking about chinese immigrant families (immigrants from PRC), not taiwanese/singaporean/hongkongese families. I think there is little dispute that multi-faimily dwelling is common in Chinese communities.

2. There are rich chinese immigrants, but the percentage is low. The percentage of rich in all chinese immigrants is not higher than other immigrant communities.


1) Multi-family in Chinese communities. Only mainland Chinese communities have old people who can't speak English looking after their grand children because they can't afford daycare. Taiwan/Sinapore/Hong Kong Chinese don't live multi-generation under one roof.

2) Rich Chinese goes to Vancouver, all mega rich rich rich. Deadbeats come to Toronto, of course some are rich but not mega rich.

[Rainne]

1) Multi-family in Chinese communities. Only mainland Chinese communities have old people who can't speak English looking after their grand children because they can't afford daycare. Taiwan/Sinapore/Hong Kong Chinese don't live multi-generation under one roof.

2) Rich Chinese goes to Vancouver, all mega rich rich rich. Deadbeats come to Toronto, of course some are rich but not mega rich.

^

Not deadbeats, but not the super rich ones in Vancouver.

[J W]

You are a little off base here, you are right that brown people are more likely to live with family (I'm brown). We wouldn't even think of putting the people who raised us in a nursing home. My parents are more than capable, but eventually they will move in with me (my wife and daughter). East asians may not want to live with family (or if they do, stick them in the garage (http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/02/28/couple-charged-for-keeping-mother-in-uninsulated-garage-since-november/), but they have no problem rooming in a house with 20 other strangers. My cousin has been living at Kennedy and Steeles for almost 25 years, and he is VERY close to PMALL. There have been some houses on his street converted to 'rooming' houses for chinese immigrants coming from CHINA, he has a corner lot, and often times he sees some of these people during the summer on his lawn sitting under the tree that is close to the curb.
East Asians are the least likely to put parents into a nursing home man...seriously. And yes, I guess from one article about a psycho it means all East Asians are insane and will make their parents live in the garage...yup. You should know Asians (east, south) and Europeans are very likely to have parents move in after their kids are married.

You are proving my point. Those are more "rental" units. I don't think rooming with strangers is what we are talking about in this thread. It's the houses in Brampton where multiple families (brothers sisters aunts uncles) living together.


Multi-family dwelling is very common in Chinese communities. You need to visit parks/schools in any chinese heavey neighbourhoods to see how many old people are gathering there on a daily basis, almost all of them do not speak english, they are all living with their grown-up children under the same roof; and their work is to take care of their grandchildren, provide meals and/or do household chores.
I'm not talking about the parents; as I mentioned above having parents move in with their married kids is common with Asians and Europeans. I'm talking about brothers sisters uncles aunts families living together under one roof. This is just not common in Chinese culture but is very common in Brampton.


This is totally baseless.
Most seem pretty rich to me. Rich enough to pay heavy fees to get into Canada or if not, are highly skilled/educated.

[spike1128]

East Asians are the least likely to put parents into a nursing home man...seriously. And yes, I guess from one article about a psycho it means all East Asians are insane and will make their parents live in the garage...yup. You should know Asians (east, south) and Europeans are very likely to have parents move in after their kids are married.

You are proving my point. Those are more "rental" units. I don't think rooming with strangers is what we are talking about in this thread. It's the houses in Brampton where multiple families (brothers sisters aunts uncles) living together.


I'm not talking about the parents; as I mentioned above having parents move in with their married kids is common with Asians and Europeans. I'm talking about brothers sisters uncles aunts families living together under one roof. This is just not common in Chinese culture but is very common in Brampton.


Most seem pretty rich to me. Rich enough to pay heavy fees to get into Canada or if not, are highly skilled/educated.

Hence if this is the case for large family to live in a small house. Then it's baseless that Brampton needs to legalize basement apartment (Very Very relevant to this topic). The city of Brampton need to create a new diversion to crack down on illegal apartments and fine the owners that's renting out or renovating apartments to stay with extended family. I think the city of Brampton will have a nice stream of revenue from this.

[elmst200]

I'm not talking about the parents; as I mentioned above having parents move in with their married kids is common with Asians and Europeans. I'm talking about brothers sisters uncles aunts families living together under one roof. This is just not common in Chinese culture but is very common in Brampton.

Grown-up children living with their parents under the same roof is quite common in Chinese communities. This is a typical scenario of multi-family dwelling.


Most seem pretty rich to me. Rich enough to pay heavy fees to get into Canada or if not, are highly skilled/educated.
you have to provide evidence to prove your statement that immigrants from PRC after 2000 are richer than other immigrant groups. We can't see chinese immigrants are more wealthy than say immigrants from Iran, Afghan, Iraq, Parkistan, Zambia etc.

All economic immigrants are highly educated/skilled, it is not just restricted to Chinese immigrants.

[Sauerkraut]

sikhs have destroyed brampton.... that is a fact.


This I agree with, and so does most anyone else that isn't Sikh. Too bad they will never see it this way.

Did you take a poll, because I don't remember being asked. And I work in Brampton, so I have a vested interest.

The only thing I hate about Brampton is the transport trucking industry. Does every f---ing truck in Canada have to go through Brampton!

[J W]

Grown-up children living with their parents under the same roof is quite common in Chinese communities. This is a typical scenario of multi-family dwelling.You just repeated what I said. And as I already stated, I don't think parents living with the kids is the problem people are complaining about (other than hospital wait times), as this isn't really "multi-family". They are complaining about the overpopulation, streets filled with cars, poor property conditions leaving to lower property values because there are too many families in one house. This means, mom dad and their kids, dad's brother and their kids, dad's sister and their kids, etc. This is common in Brampton. Not so much with the East Asians or any other cultures imo.


you have to provide evidence to prove your statement that immigrants from PRC after 2000 are richer than other immigrant groups. We can't see chinese immigrants are more wealthy than say immigrants from Iran, Afghan, Iraq, Parkistan, Zambia etc.

All economic immigrants are highly educated/skilled, it is not just restricted to Chinese immigrants.
What the hell are you talking about?
In what part of my posts did I compare the Chinese with other immigrant groups? None.
What part of "imo" do you not understand? I gave an opinion, so there's no stats, no evidence, and for all you care I could have completely pulled it out of my a**.

[Hitman21]

You just repeated what I said. And as I already stated, I don't think parents living with the kids is the problem people are complaining about (other than hospital wait times), as this isn't really "multi-family". They are complaining about the overpopulation, streets filled with cars, poor property conditions leaving to lower property values because there are too many families in one house. This means, mom dad and their kids, dad's brother and their kids, dad's sister and their kids, etc. This is common in Brampton. Not so much with the East Asians or any other cultures imo.


What the hell are you talking about?
In what part of my posts did I compare the Chinese with other immigrant groups? None.
What part of "imo" do you not understand? I gave an opinion, so there's no stats, no evidence, and for all you care I could have completely pulled it out of my a**.

This is the main problem in Brampton and its why its considered one of the worst cities to live in.

[elmst200]

You may forget what you have said.

You must have compared those "East Asians after 2000 ... from China" with others, otherwise, how could you say they are "most ... the best of the best" and "extremely rich"? Whom did you compare with to arrive at your conclusion?



Most of the East Asians after 2000 are from China and for the most part, they are the best of the best and extremely rich.



What the hell are you talking about?
In what part of my posts did I compare the Chinese with other immigrant groups? None.
What part of "imo" do you not understand? I gave an opinion, so there's no stats, no evidence, and for all you care I could have completely pulled it out of my a**.

[manmanny]

You may forget what you have said.

You must have compared those "East Asians after 2000 ... from China" with others, otherwise, how could you say they are "most ... the best of the best" and "extremely rich"? Whom did you compare with to arrive at your conclusion?
The new immigrants from China are very very rich. The way I have seen the houses being bought is the proof. and over the asking price like 10-20% over.

About people from India, not rich at all. They may be educated but definitely not rich.
That may be the reason they move to Brampton and live in clusters or many in one house.

[elmst200]

PRC people can't come to Canada as easily as Sikh did. Most PRC people come to Canada as economic immigrants, they were city dwellers in China and they were elites in their Chinese society. Therefore what you see PRC culture in Canada may not reflect the real culture of vast majority Chinese who are living in China. For example, if you look at hundreds of millions of migrant workers in Chinese cities, you'll find they are quite similar to what you have described happening in Brampton, such as many people (extended family members or even strangers) cramped in tiny apartments which were supposed to house one family. Same could be observed for other Chinese people such as those living in the countryside or the poors in the cities etc. Those are the vast majority of people that are living in PRC now.

As a matter of fact, the vast majority of chinese people could not come to Canada. If those people did come to Canada as Sikh did, you would see totally different Chinese culture here in Canada.


You just repeated what I said. And as I already stated, I don't think parents living with the kids is the problem people are complaining about (other than hospital wait times), as this isn't really "multi-family". They are complaining about the overpopulation, streets filled with cars, poor property conditions leaving to lower property values because there are too many families in one house. This means, mom dad and their kids, dad's brother and their kids, dad's sister and their kids, etc. This is common in Brampton. Not so much with the East Asians or any other cultures imo.

[J W]

You may forget what you have said.
I did not forget what I said. You just have some reading comprehension issues. Nowhere in this line do I compare Chinese with other immigrant groups.

Originally Posted by J W;
Most of the East Asians after 2000 are from China and for the most part, they are the best of the best and extremely rich.



You must have compared those "East Asians after 2000 ... from China" with others, otherwise, how could you say they are "most ... the best of the best" and "extremely rich"? Whom did you compare with to arrive at your conclusion?

Originally Posted by J W
What the hell are you talking about?
In what part of my posts did I compare the Chinese with other immigrant groups? None.
What part of "imo" do you not understand? I gave an opinion, so there's no stats, no evidence, and for all you care I could have completely pulled it out of my a**.
Since you can't read, I arrived at this conclusion based on my own opinion based on something I pulled out from thin air.


PRC people can't come to Canada as easily as Sikh did. Most PRC people come to Canada as economic immigrants, they were city dwellers in China and they were elites in their Chinese society. Therefore what you see PRC culture in Canada may not reflect the real culture of vast majority Chinese who are living in China. For example, if you look at hundreds of millions of migrant workers in Chinese cities, you'll find they are quite similar to what you have described happening in Brampton, such as many people (extended family members or even strangers) cramped in tiny apartments which were supposed to house one family. Same could be observed for other Chinese people such as those living in the countryside or the poors in the cities etc. Those are the vast majority of people that are living in PRC now.

As a matter of fact, the vast majority of chinese people could not come to Canada. If those people did come to Canada as Sikh did, you would see totally different Chinese culture here in Canada.
So basically, you agree that the Chinese here are rich and that the multi-family problem is mostly limited to Brampton. Which is exactly what I've been saying. Thanks.

[flashy_mcflash]

If you guys honestly think Chinese people don't illegally cram their houses full of as many people as possible, you've never visited Chinatown East (and the broader areas of Leslieville/Riverdale).

[elmst200]

I did not forget what I said. You just have some reading comprehension issues. Nowhere in this line do I compare Chinese with other immigrant groups.
you didn't compare with other immigrant groups. well, can you tell us with whom you compared to arrive at your conclusions (most ...Asians after 2000...from China.. best of the best, extremely rich)?


Originally Posted by J W;
Most of the East Asians after 2000 are from China and for the most part, they are the best of the best and extremely rich.

[J W]

If you guys honestly think Chinese people don't illegally cram their houses full of as many people as possible, you've never visited Chinatown East (and the broader areas of Leslieville/Riverdale).
I'm sure they do, but I would guess the frequency in the GTA is nowhere as close as in Brampton. There must be a reason why Brampton has such a negative stigma attached to it and it would appear what many people have stated here is true. Many people have argued about the multi-family and overpopulation in Brampton, but I haven't read many (or any) people defending it.

[elmst200]

The PRC immigrants are richer than vast majority of Chinese people in PRC. However, they are not rich in Canada, not richer than other immigrant groups in Canada. They are not "extremely rich"


So basically, you agree that the Chinese here are rich and that the multi-family problem is mostly limited to Brampton. Which is exactly what I've been saying. Thanks.

[Hitman21]

I'm sure they do, but I would guess the frequency in the GTA is nowhere as close as in Brampton. There must be a reason why Brampton has such a negative stigma attached to it and it would appear what many people have stated here is true. Many people have argued about the multi-family and overpopulation in Brampton, but I haven't read many (or any) people defending it.

This is true, its very widespread throughout Brampton and these homes decrease the property values which is why so many people hate the city.

[elmst200]

not just east Chinatown, almost all Chinatowns/Chinese communities have such problem. Look at downtown Chinatown, Scarborough, Markham ......


If you guys honestly think Chinese people don't illegally cram their houses full of as many people as possible, you've never visited Chinatown East (and the broader areas of Leslieville/Riverdale).

[danfromwaterloo]

I'm sure they do, but I would guess the frequency in the GTA is nowhere as close as in Brampton. There must be a reason why Brampton has such a negative stigma attached to it and it would appear what many people have stated here is true. Many people have argued about the multi-family and overpopulation in Brampton, but I haven't read many (or any) people defending it.

It's indefensable. All one has to do to verify is take the 410 from the 401 to Hurontario in the evening - and the converse in the morning - to see how bad the congestion is. Also, take a lovely spin on Queen Street from the 410 to Mississauga Rd. It's 8 km, and yet, it'll take you at least a half-hour to get through.

[Chigu]

East Asians are the least likely to put parents into a nursing home man...seriously. And yes, I guess from one article about a psycho it means all East Asians are insane and will make their parents live in the garage...yup. You should know Asians (east, south) and Europeans are very likely to have parents move in after their kids are married.

You are proving my point. Those are more "rental" units. I don't think rooming with strangers is what we are talking about in this thread. It's the houses in Brampton where multiple families (brothers sisters aunts uncles) living together.


I'm not talking about the parents; as I mentioned above having parents move in with their married kids is common with Asians and Europeans. I'm talking about brothers sisters uncles aunts families living together under one roof. This is just not common in Chinese culture but is very common in Brampton.


Most seem pretty rich to me. Rich enough to pay heavy fees to get into Canada or if not, are highly skilled/educated.


Of course, not all East Asians are going to put their parents in the garage, that was just to show the ridiculousness of the gross generalizations you were making. I dont' see the difference between rooming with strangers vs extended family. They are both contributing to the same problem (too many people living in a house!). IMO actually living with extended family is much better than having rooming houses. At least with living with extended family, they actually own the home, and if something happens outside you know who can found accountable, if you are just renting a room, you can leave anytime and act like a douche if you want.

Does it happen in South Asian culture, I'm sure it does. I really dont' know of anyone personally that is living in this situation, even though they do live in Brampton. However, rooming houses and multiple family dwellings are one and the same, and immigrants from ALL cultures are contributing to the problem.

That being said, the over population problem in Brampton is due to the south asian community.

[manmanny]

I'm sure they do, but I would guess the frequency in the GTA is nowhere as close as in Brampton. There must be a reason why Brampton has such a negative stigma attached to it and it would appear what many people have stated here is true. Many people have argued about the multi-family and overpopulation in Brampton, but I haven't read many (or any) people defending it.


...


That being said, the over population problem in Brampton is due to the south asian community.


correct. Brampton definitely has not so good reputation.

[flashy_mcflash]

I'm sure they do, but I would guess the frequency in the GTA is nowhere as close as in Brampton. There must be a reason why Brampton has such a negative stigma attached to it and it would appear what many people have stated here is true. Many people have argued about the multi-family and overpopulation in Brampton, but I haven't read many (or any) people defending it.

Well that's purely a guess. I'm not stating an opinion about the liveablity of Brampton or lack thereof (much less the reasons behind it) because I certainly don't and would never live there, but just saying that keeping scads of people in a single residence isn't a phenomenon limited to Indian people.

[J W]

you didn't compare with other immigrant groups. well, can you tell us with whom you compared to arrive at your conclusions (most ...Asians after 2000...from China.. best of the best, extremely rich)?
I have no idea why you are challenging my opinion. Since you have some reading issues, I'll repost everything for you:

Most of the East Asians after 2000 are from China and for the most part, they are the best of the best and extremely rich. The real estate boom in Markham is largely because of these people imo.

In what part of my posts did I compare the Chinese with other immigrant groups? None.
What part of "imo" do you not understand? I gave an opinion, so there's no stats, no evidence, and for all you care I could have completely pulled it out of my a**.


Since you can't read, I arrived at this conclusion based on my own opinion based on something I pulled out from thin air.
So like I said, it's my own observations. Based on what I see in Markham, based on what I see in Brampton, based on observations from friends/random people, based on housing prices, based on things I've learned from international students, based on who's buying homes.


It's indefensable. All one has to do to verify is take the 410 from the 401 to Hurontario in the evening - and the converse in the morning - to see how bad the congestion is. Also, take a lovely spin on Queen Street from the 410 to Mississauga Rd. It's 8 km, and yet, it'll take you at least a half-hour to get through.
I can agree with that. The few times I drive from Sauga to Brampton in rush hours, it's easily 30min. Doesn't matter which route (Hwy 10, 410, Kennedy, Tomken), all routes are hopeless.


Of course, not all East Asians are going to put their parents in the garage, that was just to show the ridiculousness of the gross generalizations you were making. I dont' see the difference between rooming with strangers vs extended family. They are both contributing to the same problem (too many people living in a house!). IMO actually living with extended family is much better than having rooming houses. At least with living with extended family, they actually own the home, and if something happens outside you know who can found accountable, if you are just renting a room, you can leave anytime and act like a douche if you want.
I agree with that. I guess if we go back to the original OP regarding basement suites, it's probably a rooming issue. I know of many Chinese who rent out rooms. Now in terms of some of the population concerns and overcrowding, it does seem to be a Brampton issue due to extended family homes.

[paradigmGT3]

even my indian friend named Mr. Sala Kuta Panchod agrees that brampton has an overpopulation problem. He actually comes from a household with only 15 people in it and is tired of households of 40 and more people.

[Hitman21]

even my indian friend named Mr. Sala Kuta Panchod agrees that brampton has an overpopulation problem. He actually comes from a household with only 15 people in it and is tired of households of 40 and more people.

Why doesnt the city start to crack down on these houses, it puts way too much pressure on the infrastructure.

[manmanny]

Why doesnt the city start to crack down on these houses, it puts way too much pressure on the infrastructure.

They cant because these are NDP or Liberal votes. You can't afford to lose votes. This is biggest ethnic group of votes they are concerned about.

[mbg]

So is there at least a lot of good South Asian food going on in Brampton?

[konfusion666]

So is there at least a lot of good South Asian food going on in Brampton?

as a matter of fact, yes.

just don't use your credit card at any of those places... :twisted:


OMG WHATDIDHEJUSTSAY! actually, true story... last year i took my cousin to Amaya's Bread Bar on yonge street. i paid with my bmo mastercard (note: i have had this card for 6+ years). but they "lost" my card and it took the waitress (a white chick! OMG!) 10 minutes to "find" it...

and about 3 weeks later a whole bunch of fraudulent txns were posted to my card. including the inevitable pr0n site memberships. ( black on yellow.com, brown on white.com, dogs on rabbits, etc. )
Anyways, after 14 years of possessing a whole swath of CC's (visa/mc/Amex), i suppose it's pure coincidence that the FIRST occurence of fraud happened 3 weeks after my card was "lost" at an indian restaurant....

funny thing is, if you know where Amaya's is located you would be surprised. It's a very white & super-affluent neighborhood (real affluence, not the lame RFD "chinese ppl who wear CG and drive BMW's" affluence). i hope the doctors and lawyers who frequent that establishment check their statements...

[ashs]

I have no idea why you are challenging my opinion. Since you have some reading issues, I'll repost everything for you:



So like I said, it's my own observations. Based on what I see in Markham, based on what I see in Brampton, based on observations from friends/random people, based on housing prices, based on things I've learned from international students, based on who's buying homes.


I can agree with that. The few times I drive from Sauga to Brampton in rush hours, it's easily 30min. Doesn't matter which route (Hwy 10, 410, Kennedy, Tomken), all routes are hopeless.


I agree with that. I guess if we go back to the original OP regarding basement suites, it's probably a rooming issue. I know of many Chinese who rent out rooms. Now in terms of some of the population concerns and overcrowding, it does seem to be a Brampton issue due to extended family homes.


I have nothing against extended families, I just think there are too many homes in a tight area. That said travelling through mississauga is 10x worse

[manmanny]

...

just don't use your credit card at any of those places... :twisted:


...

What? Why?

[mbg]

What? Why?

Because they will rip off your credit card details.

[flashy_mcflash]

That happened to me at the convenience store at Queen and John in downtown Toronto a few years ago. I remember seeing video (either online or on the news) of security footage showing a guy installing one of those card-copying devices in the ATM at Queen and Yonge as well. I believe some of the new ATMs are less susceptible to it though.

[kingrukus]

How about some irony; on my parents street, one of the few homes to have cars parked all over the driveway and street, with multiple families living in it is owned by caucasians. The original couple have lived in the home since it was built (1989), however it seems like they have another 10 people living with them now. I guess with house prices going the way they are, this seems to be the only way for people to survive?

[neutral]

How about some irony; on my parents street, one of the few homes to have cars parked all over the driveway and street, with multiple families living in it is owned by caucasians. The original couple have lived in the home since it was built (1989), however it seems like they have another 10 people living with them now. I guess with house prices going the way they are, this seems to be the only way for people to survive?

LOL, hilarious. So now that we have Caucasians doing it, now people can open their eyes and see that people are doing this mainly out of necessity?

[Dina_E]

How about some irony; on my parents street, one of the few homes to have cars parked all over the driveway and street, with multiple families living in it is owned by caucasians. The original couple have lived in the home since it was built (1989), however it seems like they have another 10 people living with them now. I guess with house prices going the way they are, this seems to be the only way for people to survive?

see im gonna go with what i hear. the problem with basement apt. is not the people living in. people are angry because they moved to sauga, oakville, brampton... etc. to escape the high density living of Toronto.

it seems that the problem has followed them.

[danfromwaterloo]

LOL, hilarious. So now that we have Caucasians doing it, now people can open their eyes and see that people are doing this mainly out of necessity?

The same side effects persist regardless of race. A neighbourhood overflowing with white people is still an overflowing neighbourhood.

[danfromwaterloo]

see im gonna go with what i hear. the problem with basement apt. is not the people living in. people are angry because they moved to sauga, oakville, brampton... etc. to escape the high density living of Toronto.

it seems that the problem has followed them.

Nobody moves to Brampton because they want to avoid high density.

[Piro21]

So apparently they passed a law saying that every city in the province now has to legalize these things. ****ing hell.
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1172740--basement-housing-remains-controversial-despite-provincial-push

Way to break the housing bubble, geniuses! Now everybody and their mother is just going to charge even more extreme prices for homes because 'you can just rent out the extra space', and it's legitimized by the government! Why would you even buy a house if you're going to turn it into an apartment building?

[mbg]

Georgetown is cool:


A Georgetown man was charged in connection with an incident at a Regan Cr. residence Saturday evening.
Police report about 7 p.m. a resident on the street had a visitor over who noticed nails and screws on the driveway.
The resident asked a neighbour if he had seen anyone put the items on the driveway, which caused the neighbour to become upset and swear at the resident and his friend.
Police say the neighbour, with his fist raised, threatened the resident and his friend and the neighbour then pushed the visitor, who was not injured.
Charged with assault and utter threats is Donald Earl Turner, 47.

source: http://www.theifp.ca/news/loaded-tractor-trailer-stolen/

Is that all the crime they have that they report this in the newspaper?

[cheapmeister]

Georgetown is cool:



source: http://www.theifp.ca/news/loaded-tractor-trailer-stolen/

Is that all the crime they have that they report this in the newspaper?

I think they only have one mall.

[danfromwaterloo]

I think they only have one mall.

It's true. One mall.

[mbg]

I think they only have one mall.

Do they have a Future Shop?

[BluePhirePB]

Do they have a Future Shop?No. The mall consists of a smaller sized Wal-mart (no refrigerated food section), a Zellers (closing to expand the Wal-mart), a Source, Home Sense ... and some smaller stores.

[mbg]

No. The mall consists of a smaller sized Wal-mart (no refrigerated food section), a Zellers (closing to expand the Wal-mart), a Source, Home Sense ... and some smaller stores.

Wow, sounds cool... I can see why only white people move there.

[BluePhirePB]

Wow, sounds cool... I can see why only white people move there.So people of other ethnicity don't shop at Wal-mart, Zellers, The Source and Home Sense? They only shop at Future Shop? I fail to see why you'd post something like that considering all my post was, was a summary of the stores in a mall in a small town.

You related to Singh_21 by any chance? You both sing the same tune about Georgetown.

[konfusion666]

So people of other ethnicity don't shop at Wal-mart, Zellers, The Source and Home Sense? They only shop at Future Shop? I fail to see why you'd post something like that considering all my post was, was a summary of the stores in a mall in a small town.

You related to Singh_21 by any chance? You both sing the same tune about Georgetown.


That comment was probably tongue in cheek...

[msoor19]

I've lived in brampton for 20 years, and yes it has become congested. When I was a kid, things were not nearly this bad. The problem is that the population is growing incredibly fast! Everyone wants to live here now, whether it's because other communities with coloured people aren't as safe, or because the houses are cheaper, whatever. I really can't stand it here anymore, I don't plan on staying here forever. But concerning the basement apartments, they're there already, now brampton has to figure out how to set the standards to make them safe and legal.

Btw, my parents' house has a basement apartment that was built just a few years ago. It was never rented out, and I don't think they plan to anytime soon. But it's always nice to have the option if their retirement fund doesn't stretch as far as they'd like. Also, it really adds to the value of the house. It creates more room for the family to live in, and also acts as a guest suite for visiting family. It has a separate entrance, large windows including one in the kitchen and an exhaust vent even though there's no oven/stove so I think it's probably up to fire/safety codes and regulations (if the city ever finalizes them).

Regarding the damage to infrastructure, one idea is to put a cap on legal basement apartments in each area. You can't get rid of them all, but you shouldn't support creating more. In my area, there looks to be two families living in each house. There's just so many people living here now, it's a much bigger problem concerning the management of an overpopulated city. And we can't fit them all into our basements. I wish the government would continue offering thousands of dollars to immigrants that move to the prairies instead.