Metrolinx Endorses LRT Plan For Toronto - Suburbs rejoice!

[flashy_mcflash]

Finally, we're actually moving on a transit plan. This is the first I've seen of the whole, comprehensive plan that will serve several areas of the city. We still need to address the problem of closing the loop at the north end of the city as well as a downtown relief line (or whatever they're rebranding the DRL as), but this is a good start.

http://www.blogto.com/upload/2012/04/2012425-metrolinx-lrt-plan-toronto.jpg

Here is the report from Metrolinx (http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20120425/TorontoTransit_BoardReport_25April2012.pdf)

[DearSummer]

More pressure on the Yonge subway line. It's ready to burst already. That would be priority #1 in my uneducated opinion.

[flashy_mcflash]

More pressure on the Yonge subway line. It's ready to burst already. That would be priority #1 in my uneducated opinion.

What, in your opinion, is a good way of alleviating this pressure (honest question, not being facetious)? I'm looking at the map and the only real way is to build more north-south routes, which would probably be a logistic nightmare if no one has suggested it as a strategy.

[sarnya]

More pressure on the Yonge subway line. It's ready to burst already. That would be priority #1 in my uneducated opinion.

I agree. The Downtown Relief Line will be needed even more so.

[DearSummer]

What, in your opinion, is a good way of alleviating this pressure (honest question, not being facetious)? I'm looking at the map and the only real way is to build more north-south routes, which would probably be a logistic nightmare if no one has suggested it as a strategy.

I thought the point of the DRL was to ease congestion on the Yonge line? Of course switching to all-new subway cars and the electronic signaling system will help as well.

[boblobob]

I thought the point of the DRL was to ease congestion on the Yonge line? Of course switching to all-new subway cars and the electronic signaling system will help as well.

Exactly.

The choke points are at the interchanges at Bloor and to a lesser extent St. George/Spadina. By providing more north-south options and interchange points further east (and west) they relieve the YUS line.

Now we just have to figure out how to pay for it all.

[starkiller2010]

Good to hear we are finally moving on with these projects, though part of me hoped that they would put Sheppard and Finch off and focus on the DRL. Oh well.

I wonder if they can help relieve the Yonge line by reducing some of the stations on the Spadina streetcar route. We are getting new street cars that can hold more people. Perhaps look at reducing 20% of the stops on Spadina to encourage more use.

[flashy_mcflash]

Now we just have to figure out how to pay for it all.

Road tolls (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/11/18/poll-infrastructure-road-toll-commute.html) and a sales tax hike (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/74-in-toronto-area-support-small-sales-tax-hike-if-money-goes-to-transit-poll/article2406982/). Maybe some more input from the feds:


According to a report by the Mowat Centre for Policy Innovation (http://www.mowatcentre.ca/), Ottawa contributes less than 11 per cent of transit funding through a patchwork of different funds. That’s in contrast to 30 per cent in the United States.

[LostInTruth]

'bout time! Be time this is completed I'd (hopefully) be either living downtown or outside of Canada all together.

[Piro21]

I thought the point of the DRL was to ease congestion on the Yonge line? Of course switching to all-new subway cars and the electronic signaling system will help as well.

It would also remove the need for the King and Queen streetcars and free up a lot of road space.

As for the proposed lines, they really need to close the U at the top. Connect either Sheppard and Downsview or Finch and Finch West. Extending the Eglinton line to the airport would also do wonders towards making us a 'world class city', especially if it means the death of that ****ing Lawrence bus that goes there right now.

[geokilla]

And so massive congestion begins.... Still all for subway here!

[Siskie]

More pressure on the Yonge subway line. It's ready to burst already. That would be priority #1 in my uneducated opinion.

That is my first reaction when I see that diagram. I lived in Chicago for several years and their system makes this system look like a high-school science project.

In an area where temperatures are freezing 6 out of 12 months of the year, I feel sorry for people who will be standing outside waiting for the streetcar to come pick them up. Heck, who knows if the streetcar will be able to pick them up if it has to plow through 5 feet of snow or frozen rails.

[Piro21]

And so massive congestion begins.... Still all for subway here!

Because giant holes in the ground for years on end don't cause congestion.


That is my first reaction when I see that diagram. I lived in Chicago for several years and their system makes this system look like a high-school science project.

In an area where temperatures are freezing 6 out of 12 months of the year, I feel sorry for people who will be standing outside waiting for the streetcar to come pick them up. Heck, who knows if the streetcar will be able to pick them up if it has to plow through 5 feet of snow or frozen rails.

Yeah, it's like the guys in charge somehow believe Toronto has had streetcars running the roads for decades. What were they thinking?

[thestar99]

I take the Spadina street car everyday it is a nightmare. LInes are ridiculous and have decided to take Bathurst take streetcar down or go to osgoode take queen streetcar.

Cant they run trains from bloor and one from finch during rush hour. For example, every other train goes north bound turns at rosedale and comes back to bloor. Thus alleviating some what pressure. Of course people going north will be pissed because of increased wait time. Not sure if TTC does that.

[gh05t]

Definitely a good start. Since there is no hassle of digging like for subways, hope they finish on time and on budget.

Hopefully good contractors could be found unlike the ones I've seen in Vaughan region that break up 10 feet of excellent curb and take 10 days to redo it.

All done by by 10 men working 10 hr shifts off course. So penalties for delays should be put into the contracts.

Hopefully the pressures on the downtown core could be alleviated in the short term by some creative thinking of Metrolinx.

They have at their disposal GO transit and the ability to allow express buses from the neighboring regions further into Toronto during rush hours if they choose.

I'd like to see an above ground subway along either the 401 or 407 and at least connected to the airport by 2050.Wishful thinking but with taxes from Trump and the Bellagio guys.

I'd like to see more parking towers built at strategic points of entry into the TTC system for 905ers to be able to park and ride.

Eventually as better more reliable transit options become available, I'd like to see prohibitive tolls on entry to the downtown core during rush hour and expensive parking.

[Piro21]

I take the Spadina street car everyday it is a nightmare. LInes are ridiculous and have decided to take Bathurst take streetcar down or go to osgoode take queen streetcar.

Cant they run trains from bloor and one from finch during rush hour. For example, every other train goes north bound turns at rosedale and comes back to bloor. Thus alleviating some what pressure. Of course people going north will be pissed because of increased wait time. Not sure if TTC does that.

They do at my station (St Clair West), not sure about the other side. Every once in a while they'll kick all the people off a northbound train and turn it around during rush hour. The northbound guys don't really care because they have to wait like 4/5 minutes tops, and I love it because I get my pick of seats.

[geokilla]

Because giant holes in the ground for years on end don't cause congestion.

Maybe only when the subway lines are being built. Once it's complete, bye bye street congestion. Unlike LRT.

Plus subways is more future proof, as I've said before.

[AV-Fishing]

Let's see how far this plan goes before it gets revised again!

It's not the first time that they've done this ...

Where was the subway from Downsview to York University??? That was the talk in the early 90s ... and 20 years later ... the subway is still nowhere to be seen ...

And they did talk about the extension from Finch to Major Mackenzie ... hmmmmm .... where's that??

And Eglinton West to Pearson Airport??? Hello????

Union Station to Pearson Airport????

ALL RUBBISH! The TTC and MetroLinx is all ba-ha-ha ... just talk ... no action ...

Don't be surprised if they take this now and revisit it again to change plans ...

[vero95]

the title is a bit misleading. LRTs are moving with the average speed of 30kmh or over in NA.
what they want to build is moving at the average speed of 22kmh
let's call them streetcars :facepalm:

[flashy_mcflash]

If any vehicle, say a car, drives slower than its maximum speed, is it still a car?

[vero95]

That is my first reaction when I see that diagram. I lived in Chicago for several years and their system makes this system look like a high-school science project.

In an area where temperatures are freezing 6 out of 12 months of the year, I feel sorry for people who will be standing outside waiting for the streetcar to come pick them up. Heck, who knows if the streetcar will be able to pick them up if it has to plow through 5 feet of snow or frozen rails.

+1
so many years of planning, millions of dollars lost and they came up with the idea of streetcars :facepalm:

[flashy_mcflash]

What country did Siskie spend his 'winter' in? How many days did it go below zero this year? :facepalm:

[vero95]

If any vehicle, say a car, drives slower than its maximum speed, is it still a car?

if a streetcar goes a bit faster because of the bigger distances between stops, is it an LRT?
the name is confusing

[Marcanadian]

Maybe only when the subway lines are being built. Once it's complete, bye bye street congestion. Unlike LRT.

Plus subways is more future proof, as I've said before.

How do LRT's create congestion exactly? They remove buses from the road and encourage transit use. Besides, the street is being widened first to accommodate the line, so there won't be any loss of car lanes (except for the HOV lane on Eglinton).

[flashy_mcflash]

if a streetcar goes a bit faster because of the bigger distances between stops, is it an LRT?
the name is confusing

No, it would be a streetcar. However, if an LRV goes equal speed, it's an LRV. I hope this helps clear it up for you.

It's only confusing to you and Rob Ford, and I guess Doug too. Everyone else can read a simple chart. (http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/LRV-Fact-Sheet.pdf)

[Buggy166]

ive given up on Toronto as a whole because its clear that its run by idiots who come from small suburbs instead of big cities. LRTs are great over small distances in heavily crowded sections or populated areas with people walking 24/7. They are nothing more than longer Streetcars that must adhere by the same traffic rules. Speed wise its not even comparable to a subway but clueless people keep praising them as mini subways (in rush hour traffic..go take the Bathurst streetcar and enjoy the 5km/h ride).

The approved plan caters 99% to the suburbs and 0% to the actual Toronto. As others have stated, it will add more funneling to the yonge bloor line, good luck with that. Hopefully i can move out of town within the next 2 years because after visitng places like London, its almost embarrassing to live here. Then again i cant expect much. Most people are more concerned with calling the Mayor names because he eats KFC. :facepalm:

[flashy_mcflash]

Toronto will miss you, Buggy166. It's going to be hard, but somehow, some way, we'll make it through this.

[vero95]

How do LRT's create congestion exactly? They remove buses from the road and encourage transit use. Besides, the street is being widened first to accommodate the line, so there won't be any loss of car lanes (except for the HOV lane on Eglinton).

signal priority, some restrictions on left turns, accidents

[vero95]

No, it would be a streetcar. However, if an LRV goes equal speed, it's an LRV. I hope this helps clear it up for you.

It's only confusing to you and Rob Ford, and I guess Doug too. Everyone else can read a simple chart. (http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/LRV-Fact-Sheet.pdf)

oh, so a streetcar that has doors on both sides and is bidirectional is called an LRT?
I did not know :-0

[flashy_mcflash]

oh, so a streetcar that has doors on both sides and is bidirectional is called an LRT?
I did not know :-0

In the same way that an extended car with very high capacity is called a bus. Glad I can help you with your English.

[Marcanadian]

signal priority, some restrictions on left turns, accidents

Those are minor things that can be tweaked. I don't think we should rule out LRT's because there may be a minor increase in congestion. If there were an increase in congestion, maybe the cars would see the LRT zipping by and they'd decide to switch modes. ;)

[vero95]

In the same way that an extended car with very high capacity is called a bus. Glad I can help you with your English.

but a car and a bus are different size, no?
I checked your chart and they are almost the same. isn;t that interesting?

[vero95]

Road tolls (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/11/18/poll-infrastructure-road-toll-commute.html) and a sales tax hike (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/74-in-toronto-area-support-small-sales-tax-hike-if-money-goes-to-transit-poll/article2406982/). Maybe some more input from the feds:

road tolls and new taxes to support subways? LOL
do I need to remind you your reaction when Ford was talking about road tolls? :D

[vero95]

http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/lrtspd2.jpg
proposed streetcars in Toornto will go 22kmh = 13.6mph

[Siskie]

What country did Siskie spend his 'winter' in? How many days did it go below zero this year? :facepalm:

http://bit.ly/JxM22W

[Siskie]

Hopefully i can move out of town within the next 2 years because after visitng places like London, its almost embarrassing to live here. Then again i cant expect much. Most people are more concerned with calling the Mayor names because he eats KFC. :facepalm:

It is embarrassing to live here. Every time I turn on the news on, a new Toronto Union is going on strike. The city is like a real life Romper Room with all the childish attitudes it employs.

There are too many people living in this city concerned about the Mayor's weight. Im sure they are all supermodel body builders on the cover of every fashion and fitness magazine though.

[flashy_mcflash]

http://bit.ly/JxM22W

Clever. You should try googling the weather though, since you are about as adept at reading forecasts as vero is at reading simple charts.

[flashy_mcflash]

It is embarrassing to live here. Every time I turn on the news on, a new Toronto Union is going on strike. The city is like a real life Romper Room with all the childish attitudes it employs.


So you last turned the news on in 2008?



There are too many people living in this city concerned about the Mayor's weight. Im sure they are all supermodel body builders on the cover of every fashion and fitness magazine though.

You are right, there are at least two people that are overly concerned with the Mayor's weight while they should be doing their jobs.

http://i.thestar.com/images/43/09/649d66c9477bb6b978a67f96d19e.jpg

[Buggy166]

You are right, there are at least two people that are overly concerned with the Mayor's weight while they should be doing their jobs.



Seeing how he skipped the weigh-in 3 times in 5 weeks, id say hes less concerned than you are about his weight.

[Buggy166]

Toronto will miss you, Buggy166. It's going to be hard, but somehow, some way, we'll make it through this.

Couldnt say the same, but im still stuck here for the time being.

[vero95]

It is embarrassing to live here. Every time I turn on the news on, a new Toronto Union is going on strike. The city is like a real life Romper Room with all the childish attitudes it employs.

There are too many people living in this city concerned about the Mayor's weight. Im sure they are all supermodel body builders on the cover of every fashion and fitness magazine though.

the most expensive paid highway in NA
the slowest and the most expensive LRTs (they claim they are LRTs :facepalm:) in NA
the worst traffic in NA
even the zoo lost its acreditation thanks to councillors :facepalm:

[vero95]

You are right, there are at least two people that are overly concerned with the Mayor's weight while they should be doing their jobs.



chicks still dig him, no?

[CDNPatriot]

Seeing how he skipped the weigh-in 3 times in 5 weeks, id say hes less concerned than you are about his weight.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpyEkoiFF7E

Yeah or he is worried that he gained another 40 pounds instead of losing it!

[vero95]

Clever. You should try googling the weather though, since you are about as adept at reading forecasts as vero is at reading simple charts.

due to the climate change observed this year the councillors cut spending on snow removal for the following years

[AV-Fishing]

That is my first reaction when I see that diagram. I lived in Chicago for several years and their system makes this system look like a high-school science project.

In an area where temperatures are freezing 6 out of 12 months of the year, I feel sorry for people who will be standing outside waiting for the streetcar to come pick them up. Heck, who knows if the streetcar will be able to pick them up if it has to plow through 5 feet of snow or frozen rails.

Seriously ... I was in Taiwan last year and saw their Transit System ... but I'm sorry to cut to the truth ... the TTC is just like a bunch of pre-school kids ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taipei_Metro

http://english.trtc.com.tw/

Just take a look at their complex system ... they broke ground in December 1988 ... and 24 years later ... it looks like this:

***FULL Completion of the system is estimated to be in December 2018 ...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/TigerEROS/TaipeiMetro.gif

I'm sorry ... the TTC started when??? After how many years ... it's just as pathetic!!!

[vero95]

Seriously ... I was in Taiwan last year and saw their Transit System ... but I'm sorry to cut to the truth ... the TTC is just like a bunch of pre-school kids ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taipei_Metro

http://english.trtc.com.tw/

Just take a look at their complex system ... they broke ground in December 1988 ... and 24 years later ... it looks like this:

***FULL Completion of the system is estimated to be in December 2018 ...


I'm sorry ... the TTC started when??? After how many years ... it's just as pathetic!!!

their road tolls must be very expensive ;)

[NorthYorker]

More pressure on the Yonge subway line. It's ready to burst already. That would be priority #1 in my uneducated opinion.I guess you failed to notice the new Finch West LRT, which single-handedly eliminates most of load from 2 busiest bus routes (36 and 60). On the top of that, Eglinton and Sheppard LRT will significantly alleviate Yonge/Bloor interchange station, which is a major chocking point. New signal system project for the YSL is underway and it will add 30-50% to it's capacity. All in all, not perfect, but better than nothing (which was the Ford's plan).
they really need to close the U at the top. Connect either Sheppard and Downsview or Finch and Finch West. Extending the Eglinton line to the airport would also do wonders towards making us a 'world class city', especially if it means the death of that ****ing Lawrence bus that goes there right now.Agree 100% with every word you wrote.
In an area where temperatures are freezing 6 out of 12 months of the year, I feel sorry for people who will be standing outside waiting for the streetcar to come pick them up. Heck, who knows if the streetcar will be able to pick them up if it has to plow through 5 feet of snow or frozen rails.Umm, something like half of existing TTC stations are open, as well as half of tracks...

the most expensive paid highway in NAThanks to Ontario PC party, who sold it to their political backers.

the worst traffic in NAThanks to Conservative "kill a subway" exercise of 1995 and 30 years of infrastructure underfunding in general. You know, vero95, I don't expect you to realize it, but your list of complaints reads as if it is written by a rabid commie.
their road tolls must be very expensive ;)Or (more likely) whole country pays for the system. I can imagine delight of Albertans paying for the TTC expansion :) :): :)

[AV-Fishing]

their road tolls must be very expensive ;)

Not at all ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_system_in_Taiwan

Compare the rates to the 407 ... 407 is WAY OVERPRICED! I guess its because of low volume ...

[starkiller2010]

It would also remove the need for the King and Queen streetcars and free up a lot of road space.

As for the proposed lines, they really need to close the U at the top. Connect either Sheppard and Downsview or Finch and Finch West. Extending the Eglinton line to the airport would also do wonders towards making us a 'world class city', especially if it means the death of that ****ing Lawrence bus that goes there right now.

I think extending the Sheppard Subway west to meet up with Downsview makes the most sense and helps salvage some value for that line. Knock against this is that Metrolinx does not believe the land above that line is open to much growth, and they are not concerned about closing the loop (at least not dumping $2 billion to do that). The only plan to close that loop is the Finch West LRT, which is suppose to connect Finch West with Finch station (part of Phase 2 once Phase 1 is complete). I was hoping they would just include Phase 2 into the plan but oh well.

I really think they should start making use of the dedicated street car lines as temp relief. They already have new street cars coming which are bigger and easier to load/unload.

-Sussex Ave: really just a short walk from Spadina station. People can get off at Harbord St.
-Sullivan Street: really just a short walk from the Dundas stop. Primarily used to service Dragon Center.
- Lower Simcoe Street: passengers can just load at Queens Quay

[vero95]

You know, vero95, I don't expect you to realize it, but your list of complaints reads as if it is written by a rabid commie.
coming from a former communist country you should know that their propaganda was out of touch with reality
something you are promoting on this forum :D so not sure why you call me a commie :facepalm:

[philliplewis98]

Work is underway with the TTC to finalize funding/working requirements with the aim to have the PRESTO system completely in place on the TTC for the 2015 Pan Am/Para Pan Am Games.

It will take that long to procure, test and equip all vehicles and facilities with required PRESTO devices. Currently, the TTC has approved a total of 14 PRESTO-equipped subway stations.

The green box is the new PRESTO Smartcard readers. It will replace bus passes and bus tickets on the OC Transit

;)

[NorthYorker]

coming from a former communist country you should know that their propaganda was out of touch with reality
something you are promoting on this forum :DSo you've decided to recycle a bit of Red Scare feces, trying to paint an opponent as a subversive agent of Jewish Bolshevism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism)? Yawn.... Totally expected behaviour on your side, but boring obviousness of your actions does not make them more decent.

[vero95]

So you've decided to recycle a bit of Red Scare feces, trying to paint an opponent as a subversive agent of Jewish Bolshevism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism)? Yawn.... Totally expected behaviour on your side, but boring obviousness of your actions does not make them more decent.

so first you called me a commie and now an anti-semite. sad but typical :facepalm:
not sure how you got to that after I told you that you are out of touch with reality
you have to find a better argument, buddy. you can't blame anyone who disagrees with you for antisemitism :facepalm:

[NorthYorker]

you called me a commieI did not. I've said that your list of TTC's problems looks pretty commyish for a right-wing guy like you.
you can't blame anyone who disagrees with you for antisemitismI do not. However, close historical links between anticommunism and antisemitism are hard to deny. This new "left anti-semitism disguised as anti-zionism" phenomena attracts so much attention precisely because it is the first time in human history when antisemites are not coming from right part of political spectrum.

[vero95]

I did not. I've said that your list of TTC's problems looks pretty commyish for a right-wing guy like you.I do not. However, close historical links between anticommunism and antisemitism are hard to deny. This new "left anti-semitism disguised as anti-zionism" phenomena attracts so much attention precisely because it is the first time in human history when antisemites are not coming from right part of political spectrum.

I am done with you if you have nothing to say

[flashy_mcflash]

Work is underway with the TTC to finalize funding/working requirements with the aim to have the PRESTO system completely in place on the TTC for the 2015 Pan Am/Para Pan Am Games.

It will take that long to procure, test and equip all vehicles and facilities with required PRESTO devices. Currently, the TTC has approved a total of 14 PRESTO-equipped subway stations.

The green box is the new PRESTO Smartcard readers. It will replace bus passes and bus tickets on the OC Transit

;)

This whole thing would've been finished in time for Pan Am if it weren't for Mayor McDerp. Four years wasted and for what?

[vero95]

This whole thing would've been finished in time for Pan Am if it weren't for Mayor McDerp. Four years wasted and for what?

why are you saying four years wasted? it implies that it's a great project whereas it's not
I have a colleague at work who came here from Calgary and she says the LRTs there cause griddlocks
btw, they go above 30kmh on average and not 22kmh as those streetcars in Toronto that you can't wait to see :facepalm:

[flashy_mcflash]

why are you saying four years wasted?

Because the completion date of the project was 2014. That was four years from when they started.

2014 - 2010 = 4. Always glad to help you out with a math problem, old chum.

[vero95]

Because the completion date of the project was 2014. That was four years from when they started.

2014 - 2010 = 4. Always glad to help you out with a math problem, old chum.

again you assume that the project itself is not a waste of money

[flashy_mcflash]

It's not :)

[vero95]

It's not :)

building a 11km tunnel on eglinton to see a streetcar every few mins is a waste of money
it does not matter that you say it's not :facepalm:

[starkiller2010]

Interesting note about the Sheppard and Scarborough LRT; apparently Bombardier has already begun work on making the 180ish vehicles and is on schedule to deliver them around 2013-2014. This means that the a yard has to be constructed before then to house these vehicles. So even though construction does not start until 2014 (around the same time as the elections), a lot of work will have been done already to get the LRT ready for 'real' construction.

Should Ford win his campaign in 2014 (and voters decide to vote more more pro-subway councilors), Ford will have to somehow explain to the public what he is going to do with all these LRT vehicles and the yard that was created to house them. Hope Ford doesn't run on the 'Gravy train' platform again.

[vero95]

Interesting note about the Sheppard and Scarborough LRT; apparently Bombardier has already begun work on making the 180ish vehicles and is on schedule to deliver them around 2013-2014. This means that the a yard has to be constructed before then to house these vehicles. So even though construction does not start until 2014 (around the same time as the elections), a lot of work will have been done already to get the LRT ready for 'real' construction.

Should Ford win his campaign in 2014 (and voters decide to vote more more pro-subway councilors), Ford will have to somehow explain to the public what he is going to do with all these LRT vehicles and the yard that was created to house them. Hope Ford doesn't run on the 'Gravy train' platform again.

I think Ford does not have to worry about the next election
but it's the end of the political "career" for those councillors who voted for streetcars

[flashy_mcflash]

it does not matter that you say it's not :facepalm:

It matters even less that you say that it is, because the LRT's are coming and your constant, mindless braying is not ever going to change that. In fact, you are getting them in your backyard in Mississauga as well. Have a great day! :razz:

[NorthYorker]

This whole thing would've been finished in time for Pan Am if it weren't for Mayor McDerp. Ummmm... Nope. SmartCard implementation had been delayed because Metrolinx and TTC could not agree on cost sharing. It has nothing to do with Ford.

[flashy_mcflash]

Ummmm... Nope. SmartCard implementation had been delayed because Metrolinx and TTC could not agree on cost sharing. It has nothing to do with Ford.

Oh sorry, was talking about the LRT itself, not the SmartCard.

[gizmo8]

band aid solution for mass transit...all major cities uses subways as a long term solution for moving passengers,street cars aka LRT may cost less at the start but in long term impact its the same as a subway.Toronto unions and politicians are so damn clueless as how to run a city for the future the tax payers will pay the price when the LRT starts to blog up traffic flow.Just run damn buses in dedicated lanes if you want surface system.

[flashy_mcflash]

band aid solution for mass transit...all major cities uses subways as a long term solution for moving passengers

Not at all true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tram_and_light-rail_transit_systems

[vero95]

Not at all true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tram_and_light-rail_transit_systems

again you are listing LRTs and we are getting streetcars :facepalm:

[flashy_mcflash]

No, these are LRV's. Here's some information that might help you make the distinction.

http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/Transit_city/What_is_Light_Rail_Transit/index.jsp

Glad to help, little buddy!

[Hitman21]

again you are listing LRTs and we are getting streetcars :facepalm:

Yes, some of the councilors want to get streetcars because its still part of the War On The Car

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/25/cars-are-under-attack-doug-ford-says

[vero95]

No, these are LRV's. Here's some information that might help you make the distinction.

http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/Transit_city/What_is_Light_Rail_Transit/index.jsp

Glad to help, little buddy!

they purchased LRTs but they will act like streetcars. they are not planned to reach their speeds as they are in the cities you listed :facepalm:
you still do not get it

[flashy_mcflash]

No, they'll act like LRV's. Don't you worry your little head about it. ;)

[flashy_mcflash]

I guess half of a Downtown Relief Line and closing the loop (http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhallpolitics/article/1168829--councillor-rallies-support-for-double-edged-subway-relief-plan) is a good start. At least we're talking about subways we actually need instead of the Sheppard Subway To Nowhere.

http://i.thestar.com/images/0c/ce/86946c6540c0a37dc60901952f54.jpg

[starkiller2010]

I guess half of a Downtown Relief Line and closing the loop (http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhallpolitics/article/1168829--councillor-rallies-support-for-double-edged-subway-relief-plan) is a good start. At least we're talking about subways we actually need instead of the Sheppard Subway To Nowhere.

http://i.thestar.com/images/0c/ce/86946c6540c0a37dc60901952f54.jpg

Yup, this makes sense. I rather use the money for the Sheppard LRT to start work on the Sheppard Subway West extension first to be honest, as that will offer some true relief for the Yonge line since it spreads out the riders coming from the existing Sheppard Line. With the Sheppard LRT feeding more people to the Yonge line, a western extension is a must.

[NorthYorker]

Linking Sheppard line to Downsview makes tons of sense and might actually make Sheppard break even in terms of operations revenue, instead of being perennial loss leader. Probably that's why it is not likely to be implemented in next 50 years or so :)

[vero95]

I guess half of a Downtown Relief Line and closing the loop (http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhallpolitics/article/1168829--councillor-rallies-support-for-double-edged-subway-relief-plan) is a good start. At least we're talking about subways we actually need instead of the Sheppard Subway To Nowhere.

http://i.thestar.com/images/0c/ce/86946c6540c0a37dc60901952f54.jpg

I see they are already planning to replace SRT with streetcars. I assume the reason is SRT is a failure
are there any plans for replacing those streetcars they are going to build because they look like a failure already?

[NorthYorker]

I assume the reason is SRT is a failureNope, it is just SRT is due for update anyway. However, since they made a mistake in picking the brand, there's no direct replacement, this brand is no longer produced. So they're replacing it with different brand. You see, if you used a car for 30 years and replacing it with another car of different brand, it does not mean that your old car was a failure.

[vero95]

Nope, it is just SRT is due for update anyway. However, since they made a mistake in picking the brand, there's no direct replacement, this brand is no longer produced. So they're replacing it with different brand. You see, if you used a car for 30 years and replacing it with another car of different brand, it does not mean that your old car was a failure.

but switching to LRTs is not cheap. I heard a subway would be $600mil more expensive (read it somewher so not sure)

[NorthYorker]

but switching to LRTs is not cheap. Neither is buying a new car. However, we buy new ones anyway. Alternative approach would be trying to maintain the same one for 100 years or just abandoning the whole idea of personal transportation.

[vero95]

Neither is buying a new car. However, we buy new ones anyway. Alternative approach would be trying to maintain the same one for 100 years or just abandoning the whole idea of personal transportation.

if building a subway is not much more expensive than the LRTs, how are LRTs justified?

[flashy_mcflash]

if building a subway is not much more expensive than the LRTs, how are LRTs justified?

You are going by a figure that you "heard". There is no way in hell that a subway is only $600M more expensive. Maybe if that figure is per station.

[NorthYorker]

if building a subway is not much more expensive than the LRTs, how are LRTs justified?If costs are comparable. Now, onus is on you to prove that they're comparable. And, to tell you the truth, I trust a combination of your memory and rumours you are inclined to believe in as much as I would trust a fairy tale. Less than that, actually.

[Jon Lai]

So the bad news finally comes and Toronto is going to be downgraded to a 2nd class city. That's great. Good thing I didn't buy any real estate yet :facepalm:

These people don't get it. LRTs are meant for suburbs, not urban cities. For example, the VIVA LRTs that will be built in 2020 is justified; they are express routes that have stops averaging 1km apart (no more than 1 stop between major intersections, with some exceptions) and are in lower density areas (along Hwy 7, instead of in urban Toronto) where passenger levels are much lower. This is how LRTs should be done. If you look at the Crosstown stations, you'll see how short the distance is between stations. There are, on average, 3-4 stations between major intersections. That's on average an LRT station every 500-600m, meaning if you are along Eglinton, the maximum distance you need to walk to reach a station is half that: 250-300m. Assuming average walking speed is 1m/s, that means you'll reach a station within 5 mins. Doesn't that sound too close to you guys? I don't know, but if I can walk to the next station within 10 mins time, that's not very "express" to me, and it means the stations are too close to each other. Why's that bad? Because if the stations are too close to each other, maximum speed cannot be reached. It would be like riding a bus all over again.

There's a reason why VIVA is so successful up north, and it's time the TTC took a look at that. Heck, most of the transit systems in the suburbs are more successful than the TTC is.

[CatDog]

^ not Mississauga transit.

[philliplewis98]

^ What about York Region Transit (YRT) ?

[philliplewis98]

^ not Mississauga transit.

+1 agree it a stupid system ;)

[vero95]

If costs are comparable. Now, onus is on you to prove that they're comparable. And, to tell you the truth, I trust a combination of your memory and rumours you are inclined to believe in as much as I would trust a fairy tale. Less than that, actually.

sometimes even if costs are not close it does not make sense to go with a cheaper solution. look at eglinton line. it has a 11km tunnel which could handle large ridership numbers
it will not happen though if streetcars with much lower capacities run though it every 4-5 mins

[will888]

Wonderful, basically it is transit city delayed by a number of years. If the politicians can't make a go of it, maybe it is time to privatize the system and apply regulations to govern it, something like regulating natural gas.

[Phoenix3434]

Does the LRT have those overhead power lines? One of the biggest issues I have with street cars are those lines - completely uglify the city. LRT operate the same way or do they get the power from the tracks themselves?

[vero95]

Does the LRT have those overhead power lines? One of the biggest issues I have with street cars are those lines - completely uglify the city. LRT operate the same way or do they get the power from the tracks themselves?

they do. therefore they have to dig a bigger tunnel
totally stupid :facepalm:

[kingfencer]

not rejoicing, only winner here is the union, more jobs for them, more fare hikes, and pressure on toronto to give them more money.

[transitguy1]

Thought Ontario was in financial trouble, and now this provincial agency Metrolinx wants to start building?

Where the F is the money?

[BornRuff]

Does the LRT have those overhead power lines? One of the biggest issues I have with street cars are those lines - completely uglify the city. LRT operate the same way or do they get the power from the tracks themselves?

The lines for these new LRTs are clean and simple. It is not going to be the same mess you have downtown in some areas, because you don't have 4 sets of tracks turning every which way and they are supported by simple poles in the middle of the street, not suspended from the sides of the road.

If you ever see the lakeshore streetcar right of way, it will have poles like that.

[BornRuff]

Thought Ontario was in financial trouble, and now this provincial agency Metrolinx wants to start building?

Where the F is the money?

The money has been set aside for many years.

[will888]

The money has been set aside for many years.

You mean the deficit spending has been allocated for many years.

[transitguy1]

not rejoicing, only winner here is the union, more jobs for them, more fare hikes, and pressure on toronto to give them more money.

I thought construction work is outsourced to construction companies. Have you seen drivers, subway streetcar drivers digging tunnels?

Which union are you referring to?

Would it be okay to bring in temporary workers on cheap contracts from outside Canada for this while the local people collect and go on welfare? Is that what you want?

Go cheap, and don't bother complaining when a tunnel collapses on a train a year later.

[BornRuff]

You mean the deficit spending has been allocated for many years.

Capital expenditures are treated a bit differently. Borrowing to pay for a long term durable asset is different than borrowing to pay your monthly bills.

[vero95]

I thought construction work is outsourced to construction companies. Have you seen drivers, subway streetcar drivers digging tunnels?
:facepalm:




Which union are you referring to?


TTC union :facepalm:



Would it be okay to bring in temporary workers on cheap contracts from outside Canada for this while the local people collect and go on welfare? Is that what you want?

Go cheap, and don't bother complaining when a tunnel collapses on a train a year later.

yes. why not? LOL at your scare tactic like the subways in other countries were known to collapse frequently :D

[NorthYorker]

sometimes even if costs are not closeBut you repeatedly claimed they are.
not rejoicing, only winner here is the unionYes, killing transit is as good way as any other to get rid of unions. Not only are all transit systems (even those outsourced, as YRT) unionized, ridership, being lower-income, is more unionized than car users too. Forcing them to pay $200-300/mo car insurance (on top of gas and amortization) would significantly reduce their ability to set aside strike funds, and therefore weaken all unions.

[vero95]

But you repeatedly claimed they are.

is that your answer to the question "does it make sense to spend billions of dollars to dig 11km tunnel just to run there a streetcar with limited capacity every 4-5 mins?"
:facepalm:

[NorthYorker]

is that your answer to the question "does it make sense to spend billions of dollars to dig 11km tunnel just to run there a streetcar with limited capacity every 4-5 mins?"
:facepalm:Hmm, after being unable to provide any factual support to one of your one-line thoughtproducts, you are trying to turn conversation to another, aren't you? Look, for anyone with at least minimal thinking capacity, your new one-liner contains at least 5 topics to be discussed separately, but you apparently lack the capacity to recognize it :)

[flashy_mcflash]

5 topics that have been beaten to death over the last three or four threads on this topic to boot, NorthYorker. Our man vero is getting desperate.

[nhui06]

Looking at the Sheppard LRT, I really feel they need to cut some stops out. Are they planning to eliminate all Sheppard buses and just replace them with this LRT line? Otherwise, they should treat the LRT as an express line (so only stops at the major intersections). Let the 85 bus (run it less frequently) to catch the smaller stops. That is my only beef with line right now.

http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/Transit_city/Current_Projects/index.jsp

Also, rumor has it that Metrolinx will look to make the line extend to U of T Scarborough from Morningside, which makes a lot of sense.

[flashy_mcflash]

I would imagine that all the Sheppard buses would be replaced by the LRT, yes.

[nhui06]

I would imagine that all the Sheppard buses would be replaced by the LRT, yes.

That is a bit disappointing then since it means that the LRT will eventually serve as a bus on rails (can carry a bit more people). The Eglinton Cross-town only stops at major intersections (for the above ground part). Hopefully the can cut some stops on this LRT line, maybe 10-15% reduction.

Looking at the map, they should cut:

- Palemdale Rd. (between Pharmacy and Warden; there is nothing there)
- Massie Street (really close to Shorting rd, which has a plaza and some industrial buildings)
- Burrows Hall (this is not the community center but a stop where there are mainly houses). They can get on at Neilson.
- Murrison Rd. (again, small street mainly for residential homes, they can get on at Neilson)

[Jon Lai]

That is a bit disappointing then since it means that the LRT will eventually serve as a bus on rails (can carry a bit more people). The Eglinton Cross-town only stops at major intersections (for the above ground part). Hopefully the can cut some stops on this LRT line, maybe 10-15% reduction.

Looking at the map, they should cut:

- Palemdale Rd. (between Pharmacy and Warden; there is nothing there)
- Massie Street (really close to Shorting rd, which has a plaza and some industrial buildings)
- Burrows Hall (this is not the community center but a stop where there are mainly houses). They can get on at Neilson.
- Murrison Rd. (again, small street mainly for residential homes, they can get on at Neilson)

This is why I'm personally opposed to the LRT - because they design it to be a bus-replacement, not as an express route. I've said this many many times already.

The stops on Eglinton aren't much better. We don't need more than one station between two major intersections. We don't need stations within 10 minute's walk of each other.

[LostInTruth]

I thought construction work is outsourced to construction companies. Have you seen drivers, subway streetcar drivers digging tunnels?

Which union are you referring to?

Would it be okay to bring in temporary workers on cheap contracts from outside Canada for this while the local people collect and go on welfare? Is that what you want?

Go cheap, and don't bother complaining when a tunnel collapses on a train a year later.

+1. Some people have no common sense. I know this is RFD, but there are many things in life in which quality trumps price. You guys are now complaining that more jobs are being created and more transportation is being divided within the city? Idiots.

[vero95]

Looking at the Sheppard LRT, I really feel they need to cut some stops out. Are they planning to eliminate all Sheppard buses and just replace them with this LRT line? Otherwise, they should treat the LRT as an express line (so only stops at the major intersections). Let the 85 bus (run it less frequently) to catch the smaller stops. That is my only beef with line right now.

http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/Transit_city/Current_Projects/index.jsp

Also, rumor has it that Metrolinx will look to make the line extend to U of T Scarborough from Morningside, which makes a lot of sense.

those are not LRTs. those are streetcars. there are no LRTs in NA that go at such low speed of 22kmh on average
they will need to stop at those intersections anyway, no?

[vero95]

Hmm, after being unable to provide any factual support to one of your one-line thoughtproducts, you are trying to turn conversation to another, aren't you? Look, for anyone with at least minimal thinking capacity, your new one-liner contains at least 5 topics to be discussed separately, but you apparently lack the capacity to recognize it :)

hmm, so you have no clue that it's a nonsense to spend billions of dollars on a tunnel and run a streetcar there every 4-5mins :|

[NorthYorker]

you have no clue that it's a nonsense to spend billions of dollars on a tunnel and run a streetcar there every 4-5minsDoes it mean that Mayor Ford has no clue about transit, as well as his voters? After all, he won on promise to spend billions of dollars on a tunnel and run a streetcar there along Eglinton.

[LostInTruth]

Does it mean that Mayor Ford has no clue about transit, as well as his voters? After all, he won on promise to spend billions of dollars on a tunnel and run a streetcar there along Eglinton.

+1.

[vero95]

Does it mean that Mayor Ford has no clue about transit, as well as his voters? After all, he won on promise to spend billions of dollars on a tunnel and run a streetcar there along Eglinton.

if you bury the eglinton line, you could easily increase capacities, frequencies and speed on the whole line
those LRTs were already bought and everything including the machines was ready to dig a tunnel to support them. it's not his fault that some dudes before him made such decisions
do you understand now why Gary had to go?

[NorthYorker]

do you understand now why Gary had to go?I guess NP told it good enough:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/21/meeting-expected-to-result-in-dismissal-of-ttc-chief-gm-gary-webster-convenes-amid-cheers-and-conflicting-visions-of-transit/

Gary Webster’s tenure as head of the TTC crashed to a halt Tuesday evening as Mayor Rob Ford, fresh off a critical defeat on the transit expansion file, touted a need for “major change” within the commission’s leadership.
In a raucous and emotionally charged meeting, the TTC voted 5-4 to terminate Mr. Webster’s employment “without cause”Mr. Ford needed someone to went his immature anger on, and ordered his cronies to fire Webster without cause. What's so hard to understand here? Wealthy millionaire scion wenting his childish anger...

[redkid]

many things can change from when the start making these adjustments in 2014 til 2020...
they could also go more north as population is increating a lot north of steeles or just look at the subway from other cities, we're so behind here !

[vero95]

I guess NP told it good enough:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/21/meeting-expected-to-result-in-dismissal-of-ttc-chief-gm-gary-webster-convenes-amid-cheers-and-conflicting-visions-of-transit/
Mr. Ford needed someone to went his immature anger on, and ordered his cronies to fire Webster without cause. What's so hard to understand here? Wealthy millionaire scion wenting his childish anger...

:facepalm:
http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/126092/auditor-finds-gaps-in-ttc-oversight-of-consultants-and-overtime/

Auditor finds gaps in TTC oversight of consultants and overtime

btw, why would you keep a guy who wanted to build streetcars everywhere? I already explained to you that they do not make sense everywhere. you still did not answer me what you think about the eglinton line

[flashy_mcflash]

btw, why would you keep a guy who wanted to build streetcars everywhere?

He didn't. He wanted to build LRV's. Here's a simple chart (http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/LRV-Fact-Sheet.pdf) to help you discern the differences between LRV's and streetcars.

[vero95]

He didn't. He wanted to build LRV's. Here's a simple chart (http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/LRV-Fact-Sheet.pdf) to help you discern the differences between LRV's and streetcars.

LOL they are basically the same. you should open that link at some point and check it
the only thing that could distinguish them are speeds but you must be aware by now that they will operate at speeds of 22kmh which are closer to streetcars than LRVs
I am puzzled why you repeatedly show that chart if it works agains you. it's really dumb :D

[NorthYorker]

:facepalm:
http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/126092/auditor-finds-gaps-in-ttc-oversight-of-consultants-and-overtime/So, let me put the record straight. Team Ford wasted 500K of my taxes in firing Webster to please their boss, and Webster was leaving next year anyway. Now the same Conservative councillor is all outraged over unaccounted 10K. He flushed 500K down the toilet and now is outraged over 1/50 of that.

[flashy_mcflash]

LOL they are basically the same.


No. They are different vehicles. Would you say that a transport truck and a Honda Civic are basically the same? After all, they are capable of "basically" the same speeds and they both have wheels and need drivers. Of course you would, because you are bad at thinking.



you should open that link at some point and check it


Sure!



the only thing that could distinguish them are speeds

Oh, so sorry. No. If this is what you believe, you should get your thinking cap on.



I am puzzled why you repeatedly show that chart if it works agains you. it's really dumb :D

One of us looks vero I mean very dumb here, but it ain't me. ;)

[vero95]

No. They are different vehicles. Would you say that a transport truck and a Honda Civic are basically the same? After all, they are capable of "basically" the same speeds and they both have wheels and need drivers. Of course you would, because you are bad at thinking.



Sure!



Oh, so sorry. No. If this is what you believe, you should get your thinking cap on.



One of us looks vero I mean very dumb here, but it ain't me. ;)

if you opened the link, you would have discovered that they are very similar in size. it's not like comparing a honda civic with a truck
are you sure you opened your own link? it's really dumb to claim thay are so different, no?

[gizmo8]

So, let me put the record straight. Team Ford wasted 500K of my taxes in firing Webster to please their boss, and Webster was leaving next year anyway. Now the same Conservative councillor is all outraged over unaccounted 10K. He flushed 500K down the toilet and now is outraged over 1/50 of that.

Duh because Webster was a backward thinking leader...he was holding back the planning for the subways which would cost a lot more in delays.What have Webster done the last 15 years to make the TTC more modern,cost efficient,larger expansions and better planning...name one thing he has done was so revolutionary that improved the TTC?...

[NorthYorker]

if you opened the link, you would have discovered that they are very similar in size.Hmmm, let me try to explain it to you using very simple examples: Ford Tempo had virtually identical (within 5% difference) length with 2012 Toyota minivan. The former sits 4. The latter sits 8. But they are very similar in size. Do you understand it now?
name one thing he has done was so revolutionary that improved the TTC?...Well, new buses and subway trains are lightyears ahead of those fossil hulks which served Toronto in late 1990s. I almost cried when I saw fishbowls in Toronto, they so much reminded me of my childhood years in USSR (Soviets long ago phased out the model they copied from Fishbowls).

[vero95]

Hmmm, let me try to explain it to you using very simple examples: Ford Tempo had virtually identical (within 5% difference) length with 2012 Toyota minivan. The former sits 4. The latter sits 8. But they are very similar in size. Do you understand it now?Well, new buses and subway trains are lightyears ahead of those fossil hulks which served Toronto in late 1990s. I almost cried when I saw fishbowls in Toronto, they so much reminded me of my childhood years in USSR (Soviets long ago phased out the model they copied from Fishbowls).

you really should educate yourself before you post. there are minimal differences in sizes and capacities per car. one carries 280 people and the other 250

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1129024--when-is-a-streetcar-not-a-streetcar-when-it-s-lrt