Illegal Refugee Health Care Benefits Go Under The Knife

[Hitman21]

OTTAWA - Refugee claimants' access to what critics call gold-plated health care coverage will disappear by summer.

QMI Agency has learned Immigration Minister Jason Kenney will announce Wednesday that by late June, claimants will get federal coverage for emergency care and conditions that are a risk to public health.

Kenney's tough medicine for refugee claimants means they will no longer have eye, dental, or prescription drug expenses covered by taxpayers - benefits most Canadian citizens and permanent residents don't receive.

The changes follow a review Kenney launched in September, 2010 when QMI Agency questioned him about the level of benefits offered.

"This program, in my view, should be no more generous than is typically the case within provincial health care programs," said Kenney at the time.

But the new system seems to go even further than Kenney imagined in 2010, reducing benefits to the bare minimum until a refugee claimant has been accepted as genuinely needing Canada's protection.

Genuine refugees are accepted as permanent residents of Canada, who would then qualify for provincial health coverage.

Federal officials estimate Kenney's new prescription for refugee claimants' health benefits will save taxpayers about $100 million over five years.

The changes are expected to go into effect at about the same time as the Conservatives' major refugee reform bill is passed into law in late June.

One of the provisions of Bill C-31 - Protecting Canada’s Immigration System Act - is aimed at cutting the time to process refugee claims to within about seven months for regular claimants, or six weeks for those who come from a designated "safe" country.

Right now, refugee claimants wait almost three years -- collecting social assistance in many cases -- before their cases are processed.

On Tuesday, the NDP's Craig Scott called on MPs give the bill a rough ride in committee "and not back the government in what is ultimately repressive legislation.


http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/24/refugee-health-care-benefits-go-under-the-knife

This is very good news for the taxpayer, these people should not be getting healthcare especially when many Canadians cant get it yet pay taxes. Hopefully this will help to stop more refugees from coming in

Do you think that is a good idea or should the government go further?

[zz000ter]

Just out of curiosity - Q for the mods - how is this not a "NEWSBOT" post while others with more opinion are labled newsbot threads and closed?

Or is "newsbot" the new "troll" the new "censorship"?

Back to the OP - finally!
Doing the right thing

I would say "give six months to prove a claim" and if they can't prove it ship them back to where they came from.
Too many economic migrants

[Hitman21]

Just out of curiosity - Q for the mods - how is this not a "NEWSBOT" post while others with more opinion are labled newsbot threads and closed?

Or is "newsbot" the new "troll" the new "censorship"?

Back to the OP - finally!
Doing the right thing

I would say "give six months to prove a claim" and if they can't prove it ship them back to where they came from.
Too many economic migrants

This is not a newsbot because its not just copy and paste, I clearly gave my opinion on the subject compared to others who just copy and paste

As for the thread this is a step in the right direction but its still not good enough though

[peanutz]

'bout FREAKIN' TIME.

I never understood the justification for why refugees get better health coverage than Canadian citizens LOLLLL what a joke that was.

I've seen some that mosey up to the pharmacy with a smug and entitled attitude. Once my pharmacist preceptor refused to accept their drug card from the government because the government had a piss-poor track record on reimbursing pharmacies back. The refugee made a snide remark accompanied by eyes rolling about how "all pharmacies accept it", "very strange" - B****, please.

clapclapclap

[squagles]

I'm sure these refugee claimants will be able to find work that offers a good benefit package while their legal status in this country is in limbo. But hey, that's a whole $20 million dollars a year! How dare hard working Canadians be robbed of that to provide medical care!

[Hitman21]

'bout FREAKIN' TIME.

I never understood the justification for why refugees get better health coverage than Canadian citizens LOLLLL what a joke that was.

I've seen some that mosey up to the pharmacy with a smug and entitled attitude. Once my pharmacist preceptor refused to accept their drug card from the government because the government had a piss-poor track record on reimbursing pharmacies back. The refugee made a snide remark accompanied by eyes rolling about how "all pharmacies accept it", "very strange" - B****, please.

clapclapclap

They get treated so well for votes. Thats excellent that the pharmacy stood up for itself against the refugee.

[ever1221]

I see this coni gov. is cutting budget on a lot of things...my taxes better not be raised next year...but knowing conis and their philosophy of taxing the poor and giving tax breaks for rich, am sure I will be so taxed that even the tax will be taxed.

[aviador]

Just baby steps towards the solution.

Refugees should not be given Canadian citizenship under any circumstance, to them or to their families even if born in Canada. Most refugee reasons for claiming refugee status are transitory. Most refugee claimant are just economic migrants taking advantage of Canadian lax laws. Any refugee return to visit family and conduct business as soon as they receive permanent status in Canada. These refugees must have their permanent status / citizenship revoked and must be repatriated along with their families to their country of origin.

[longitude]

This is not a newsbot because its not just copy and paste, I clearly gave my opinion on the subject compared to others who just copy and paste

As for the thread this is a step in the right direction but its still not good enough though


+1

[mysticalinfluence]

I see this coni gov. is cutting budget on a lot of things...my taxes better not be raised next year...but knowing conis and their philosophy of taxing the poor and giving tax breaks for rich, am sure I will be so taxed that even the tax will be taxed.

You can count on this as long Harper and Mcguinty are in power.

[Hitman21]

Just baby steps towards the solution.

Refugees should not be given Canadian citizenship under any circumstance, to them or to their families even if born in Canada. Most refugee reasons for claiming refugee status are transitory. Most refugee claimant are just economic migrants taking advantage of Canadian lax laws. Any refugee return to visit family and conduct business as soon as they receive permanent status in Canada. These refugees must have their permanent status / citizenship revoked and must be repatriated along with their families to their country of origin.

Agreed. The only reason they come here is because we give them incentives such as healthcare, welfare and education, take all that away and the amount coming will drop

[olssy]

Agreed. The only reason they come here is because we give them incentives such as healthcare, welfare and education, take all that away and the amount coming will drop

You should at least look up the word refugee in the dictionary before posting lies. A refugee is happy to get into any country where they are not in immediate danger.

The real question is how humane we want to be as a country. Your answer seems to be we create a second class of citizen, one that gets none of our social advantages.

How should a refugee be able to pay for a doctor if they can't work legally here?

[Hitman21]

You should at least look up the word refugee in the dictionary before posting lies. A refugee is happy to get into any country where they are not in immediate danger.

The real question is how humane we want to be as a country. Your answer seems to be we create a second class of citizen, one that gets none of our social advantages.

How should a refugee be able to pay for a doctor if they can't work legally here?

What about the 500 illegal tamil refugees that came here for our welfare, its not right that Canadians pay taxes for these guys who abuse the system

[manmanny]

What about the 500 illegal tamil refugees that came here for our welfare, its not right that Canadians pay taxes for these guys who abuse the system

Many paid 40K-60K to smuggle them here. Almost all of them move to Toronto.

[spike1128]

You should at least look up the word refugee in the dictionary before posting lies. A refugee is happy to get into any country where they are not in immediate danger.

The real question is how humane we want to be as a country. Your answer seems to be we create a second class of citizen, one that gets none of our social advantages.

How should a refugee be able to pay for a doctor if they can't work legally here?

I like to tell you that, if whatever I bolded to as truth. Then the Sri Lankans that boated across the pacific ocean/land in Vancouver wouldn't have done so. They were already in Thailand, considered as a safe country with no immediate danger. They also by passed Australia which was also a safe country, the Australia sent them back into the ocean. Your argument just let the rest of the world abuse us. Hence, it's time for Canada to cut back in freebies, so they wouldn't come here as their first choice.

Humane doesn't necessarily mean we are there for the picking and taken advantage of. I tell you how real refugees feel. Let's take for example, the Vietnamese boated to British Colony Hong Kong. You know where they live while they are being proceed, in refugee camps which are fenced off. I am sure real refugees will do anything to get out of a dangerous country, and they will be happy even if they have to be in camps. They can see doctors for free and get free medication if needed.

Time for you to go travelling and see how the rest of the world does things.

[manmanny]

I like to tell you that, if whatever I bolded to as truth. Then the Sri Lankans that boated across the pacific ocean/land in Vancouver wouldn't have done so. They were already in Thailand, considered as a safe country with no immediate danger. They also by passed Australia which was also a safe country, the Australia sent them back into the ocean. Your argument just let the rest of the world abuse us. Hence, it's time for Canada to cut back in freebies, so they wouldn't come here as their first choice.

Humane doesn't necessarily mean we are there for the picking and taken advantage of. I tell you how real refugees feel. Let's take for example, the Vietnamese boated to British Colony Hong Kong. You know where they live while they are being proceed, in refugee camps which are fenced off. I am sure real refugees will do anything to get out of a dangerous country, and they will be happy even if they have to be in camps. They can see doctors for free and get free medication if needed.

Time for you to go travelling and see how the rest of the world does things.

Why not go to India? Its so near and their people there, right? Why all the way to Canada? With 40K-60K they can have better life in India or Thailand.

[spintheblackcircle]

I still see however that they'll get "emergency" care and whatnot... However their "emergency" is anything and the ambulance taxi takes them to the hospital for "free".

Bothers me...

I see a lot of 70+ year old "refugees" who don't speak a lick of English (or French) and have coat-tailed it to Canada for "free" healthcare. What exactly are they going to be contributing to society?

[spike1128]

Why not go to India? Its so near and their people there, right? Why all the way to Canada? With 40K-60K they can have better life in India or Thailand.

You sure you don't know why? Didn't you watch the news last year? The Tamils military group got bombed to bits by the Sri Lankan government (Guyanese majority). Civil war. Hence, all the Tamils try to leave the country. (joke: that's why Ragu is here)

That government has been fighting that civil war for at least 2 decades (can't finish them off). So why suddenly they can finish them off? Obvious, high tech equipment used to find their military group's location aka GPS. Where did you think Sri Lanka got GPS military systems from? India.

So if they run to India. The government should have detained them and send them back to Sri Lanka to go to jail.

"History lesson for the ill informed North Americans who never leave this country".

[olssy]

What about the 500 illegal tamil refugees that came here for our welfare, its not right that Canadians pay taxes for these guys who abuse the system

They did not come here for welfare, they fled their country because of the extreme repression on the Tamil people following the end of the civil war in Sri Lanka...

There will always be people to abuse any system, those that lie to get in aren't refugees, they are scammers. Refugees are people fleeing danger, people pretending to be refugees are not refugees. Illegal refugees just mean they arrived without going through due process, they might have had a great reason for not going through due process, like their lives were in danger.

I know the Tamils have often been in the news as a large proportion of them go back to Sri Lanka for holidays and it seems illogical to return to a country where you said your life was in danger. But even this does not mean that when they fled their lives weren't in danger, maybe certain regions of Sri Lanka are worse than others or maybe a Canadian passport ensures them a certain degree of safety, I don't know but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[manmanny]

You sure you don't know why? Didn't you watch the news last year? The Tamils military group got bombed to bits by the Sri Lankan government (Guyanese majority). Civil war. Hence, all the Tamils try to leave the country. (joke: that's why Ragu is here)

That government has been fighting that civil war for at least 2 decades (can't finish them off). So why suddenly they can finish them off? Obvious, high tech equipment used to find their military group's location aka GPS. Where did you think Sri Lanka got GPS military systems from? India.

So if they run to India. The government should have detained them and send them back to Sri Lanka to go to jail.

"History lesson for the ill informed North Americans who never leave this country".

From what I read on net is Indian Army Ran away from there and Lower land where the Tamils live are all support separate state there or even in India. So That Tamil area in India is safe for anybody.

I was under impression since conservative banned LTTE and the money supply was cut off from Canada. That is the main reason. But you can correct and add more info.

[Hitman21]

I like to tell you that, if whatever I bolded to as truth. Then the Sri Lankans that boated across the pacific ocean/land in Vancouver wouldn't have done so. They were already in Thailand, considered as a safe country with no immediate danger. They also by passed Australia which was also a safe country, the Australia sent them back into the ocean. Your argument just let the rest of the world abuse us. Hence, it's time for Canada to cut back in freebies, so they wouldn't come here as their first choice.

Humane doesn't necessarily mean we are there for the picking and taken advantage of. I tell you how real refugees feel. Let's take for example, the Vietnamese boated to British Colony Hong Kong. You know where they live while they are being proceed, in refugee camps which are fenced off. I am sure real refugees will do anything to get out of a dangerous country, and they will be happy even if they have to be in camps. They can see doctors for free and get free medication if needed.

Time for you to go travelling and see how the rest of the world does things.

Agreed. The refugees could have went somewhere else but they came here to abuse the system for welfare and other benefits

[spookie149]

If I was a true refugee trying to escape my country because I was unsafe, health and dental care would be an afterthought. I believe the intent of the system as it was originally created fit this purpose. Would a true refugee be getting these benefits in their home countries anyway?

[Hitman21]

They did not come here for welfare, they fled their country because of the extreme repression on the Tamil people following the end of the civil war in Sri Lanka...

There will always be people to abuse any system, those that lie to get in aren't refugees, they are scammers. Refugees are people fleeing danger, people pretending to be refugees are not refugees. Illegal refugees just mean they arrived without going through due process, they might have had a great reason for not going through due process, like their lives were in danger.

I know the Tamils have often been in the news as a large proportion of them go back to Sri Lanka for holidays and it seems illogical to return to a country where you said your life was in danger. But even this does not mean that when they fled their lives weren't in danger, maybe certain regions of Sri Lanka are worse than others or maybe a Canadian passport ensures them a certain degree of safety, I don't know but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Except as soon as they came here they were getting welfare not to mention some of them paid more than $20,000 to get here, that's clearly a refugee :facepalm:

[olssy]

I like to tell you that, if whatever I bolded to as truth. Then the Sri Lankans that boated across the pacific ocean/land in Vancouver wouldn't have done so. They were already in Thailand, considered as a safe country with no immediate danger. They also by passed Australia which was also a safe country, the Australia sent them back into the ocean. Your argument just let the rest of the world abuse us. Hence, it's time for Canada to cut back in freebies, so they wouldn't come here as their first choice.

Humane doesn't necessarily mean we are there for the picking and taken advantage of. I tell you how real refugees feel. Let's take for example, the Vietnamese boated to British Colony Hong Kong. You know where they live while they are being proceed, in refugee camps which are fenced off. I am sure real refugees will do anything to get out of a dangerous country, and they will be happy even if they have to be in camps. They can see doctors for free and get free medication if needed.

Time for you to go travelling and see how the rest of the world does things.

I don't quite get what you are saying, you think Canada should have refugee camps? If that's your opinion then state it but what you wrote wasn't very clear. Also, when the 500 Tamils arrived they were put in a refugee camp before being put into police custody.

I do not think we are being taken advantage of if we offer healthcare to possible refugees while processing their claim, they cannot work and arrive broke most of the time. If we don't provide healthcare until it is an emergency it will cost us more anyway.

Btw, I've traveled more than most but I have yet to visit a refugee camp, I don't think it would change my opinion on the importance of helping refugees.

Just found out how well off the Tamil refugees were in Thailand before coming here:
http://worldub.blogspot.ca/2008/04/plight-of-sri-lankan-tamil-refugees.html

[spike1128]

I don't quite get what you are saying, you think Canada should have refugee camps? If that's your opinion then state it but what you wrote wasn't very clear. Also, when the 500 Tamils arrived they were put in a refugee camp before being put into police custody.

I do not think we are being taken advantage of if we offer healthcare to possible refugees while processing their claim, they cannot work and arrive broke most of the time. If we don't provide healthcare until it is an emergency it will cost us more anyway.

Btw, I've traveled more than most but I have yet to visit a refugee camp, I don't think it would change my opinion on the importance of helping refugees.

Just found out how well off the Tamil refugees were in Thailand before coming here:
http://worldub.blogspot.ca/2008/04/plight-of-sri-lankan-tamil-refugees.html

All I am saying is. The fake/real refugees all singled us out and see us as suckers (or compassionate if you must word this better); because they are able to get health/dental/other benefits, able to walk free, and live in this country without even having to prove they are real refugees. In the end, they will do whatever they can to come here instead of other safe countries. That is unfair burden on the Canadian taxpayers.

I am just saying, refugees get treated worst elsewhere. If they are real refugees, going to a refugee camp is least of their concern. Therefore they choose here (I have problem with them singling us out). If they were Mexicans or Central Americans, fine they are coming to one of the closest safe countries. South Asia is not close at all.

If we must put them in refugee camps, so be it. I am sure they will think twice before they coming here. Like I said, it's the least of their concern.

[danfromwaterloo]

I would be supportive of ending refugee status altogether, save for exceptional circumstances.

Immigration is one thing, where presumably, the applicants are skilled and able to support themselves, and not be a burden to the taxpayer. But refugees often bear an unfair burden on the system. Each refugee application takes 2.5 years to complete, and costs the taxpayer about $100,000 (http://taxpayer.com/british-columbia/cost-refugees). At last estimate, there was a backlog of 60,000 refugees in the system awaiting hearings, and of those, approximately 53,000 were going to be rejected. That's an enormous cost, with little net benefit to society as a whole.

According to stats in 2010, Canada is the second-largest refugee accepting country in the world (9% of refugees come to Canada, approximately 6700 per year). I think it makes sense to reduce that number to around the size of half of the UK, which allows 700 refugees a year, for twice the size of Canada. Yet, with around 7000 accepted claimants, we get 60,000 applications a year.

There's being charitable and merciful, then there's having your good will abused. I think we're there.

[Hitman21]

I would be supportive of ending refugee status altogether, save for exceptional circumstances.

Immigration is one thing, where presumably, the applicants are skilled and able to support themselves, and not be a burden to the taxpayer. But refugees often bear an unfair burden on the system. Each refugee application takes 2.5 years to complete, and costs the taxpayer about $100,000 (http://taxpayer.com/british-columbia/cost-refugees). At last estimate, there was a backlog of 60,000 refugees in the system awaiting hearings, and of those, approximately 53,000 were going to be rejected. That's an enormous cost, with little net benefit to society as a whole.

According to stats in 2010, Canada is the second-largest refugee accepting country in the world (9% of refugees come to Canada, approximately 6700 per year). I think it makes sense to reduce that number to around the size of half of the UK, which allows 700 refugees a year, for twice the size of Canada. Yet, with around 7000 accepted claimants, we get 60,000 applications a year.

There's being charitable and merciful, then there's having your good will abused. I think we're there.

Agreed. We are facing massive abuse from the refugees and it has to stop. Its a gigantic waste of taxpayer money

[anyasok]

You should at least look up the word refugee in the dictionary before posting lies. A refugee is happy to get into any country where they are not in immediate danger.

The real question is how humane we want to be as a country. Your answer seems to be we create a second class of citizen, one that gets none of our social advantages.

How should a refugee be able to pay for a doctor if they can't work legally here?
What could you expect from people like him who are obstinate capitalists? Capitalistic system assumes inhumanity at its heart and exercising it with these sort of threads is exactly why it is the biggest waste of human potential.

I would much rather deport all capitalists and cut out all of their health care/benefits so that they stfu already.

No immigrants shouldn't be given all these rights EXCLUSIVELY. They should come for all Canadians including them. Period.

[Hitman21]

What could you expect from people like him who are obstinate capitalists? Capitalistic system assumes inhumanity at its heart and exercising it with these sort of threads is exactly why it is the biggest waste of human potential.

I would much rather deport all capitalists and cut out all of their health care/benefits so that they stfu already.

No immigrants shouldn't be given all these rights EXCLUSIVELY. They should come for all Canadians including them. Period.

This thread is about refugees getting benefits not capitalism, excellent job derailing the thread

[anyasok]

This thread is about refugees getting benefits not capitalism, excellent job derailing the thread
I already commented that all these benefits should NOT be cut from immigrants but instead should be passed to all regular citizens as well which is the way it always had to be.

What other detailing do you need? Argue in the positive, not in the negative.

[a-tree]

What could you expect from people like him who are obstinate capitalists? Capitalistic system assumes inhumanity at its heart and exercising it with these sort of threads is exactly why it is the biggest waste of human potential.

I would much rather deport all capitalists and cut out all of their health care/benefits so that they stfu already.

No immigrants shouldn't be given all these rights EXCLUSIVELY. They should come for all Canadians including them. Period.

You must be so unhappy to live in a world based on capitalism. How do you live everyday?

[anyasok]

You must be so unhappy to live in a world based on capitalism. How do you live everyday?
By trying to drill some common sense into people like you. It's futile though so I gave up the first day.

[danfromwaterloo]

What could you expect from people like him who are obstinate capitalists? Capitalistic system assumes inhumanity at its heart and exercising it with these sort of threads is exactly why it is the biggest waste of human potential.

I would much rather deport all capitalists and cut out all of their health care/benefits so that they stfu already.

No immigrants shouldn't be given all these rights EXCLUSIVELY. They should come for all Canadians including them. Period.

Unfortunately, the world runs on money. We, as a society, have a set tax base from which to spend on set programs for the good of the public. For every hospital bed that gets used up by a refugee, it is one less that gets used for a taxpayer. How is that fair? Now, if we had a glut of available spots - sure. Be charitable. Give where you can afford to give. But right now, with the government cutting costs everywhere, we cannot afford to waste more money on people who have never contributed to our society.

When was the last time you brought a homeless person in from the rain? When was the last time you took from your children's plate to feed a stranger? Refugees are charity, simply. In times of plenty, we can afford to be generous; in times of few, we need to cut back, and costs such as this make the most sense. If the numbers I saw was true, refugee claimants chew up $6 billion dollars a year in court costs, healthcare and other social safety nets. Last year, the government collected $222.2 billion in taxes, which means that refugee claimants chew up about 3% of our entire tax base. What if we were to divert this to, say, pay for all of the post-secondary education in Canada? There's 1 million university students in Canada - we could afford to give them $6,000 a piece per year. That would help pay for a good chunk of their tuition.

Let's start helping Canadians first. Then, let's worry about the rest of the world.

[transitguy1]

Agree with the OP on the refugees abusing Canadian system for their gain.

In my opinion, the govt should make sure that:

1. For Refugees it should take 15 years to become a citizen, not the same as regular immigrants.
2. Exit control implemented to stop these "refugees" going back to "vacation" as soon as they get their PR Cards. IMO, even the PR Card/Status should be granted AFTER 10 years.
3. During that 10 years time to "earn" PR, they must work and not be a burden on the govt. If they are really fleeing violence they would be ok with this.
4. They should not have the same equality rights with Citizens and Permanent Residents. They should be last in priority. Everyone else first.
5. Only emergency medical should be given to them. They should have to earn their healthcare and other benefits.
6. They should not be allowed to go on welfare after PR status is granted, they should be working and grateful to Canada.
7. Their kids should not be granted any status until the parents themselves get their own in 15 yrs.
8. Deport to origin if they commit any crime, whether small or big.
9. Expedite hearings and cases and deport them without allowing appeal after appeal after appeal. Currently it takes 10 years for a refugee to exhaust all appeals process and be put on a plane. This period needs to be reduced dramatically.

Even after citizenship and they get Canadian passports, they should not be going to the country they were "fleeing" from.

That's how Minister Kenney should put an end to this refugee madness. Any people "sympathizing" should also be sent alongwith the refugee.

[a-tree]

By trying to drill some common sense into people like you. It's futile though so I gave up the first day.

It's you against the world bro because the world is capitalism. Don't you think the problem might be with you then? I mean, everyone is saying one thing and you the other.

[KDSet]

refugee claimants [...] will no longer have eye, dental, or prescription drug expenses covered by taxpayers - benefits most Canadian citizens and permanent residents don't receive.


Genuine refugees are accepted as permanent residents of Canada, who would then qualify for provincial health coverage.


Insulting.

[manmanny]

"Kenney's tough medicine for refugee claimants means they will no longer have eye, dental, or prescription drug expenses covered by taxpayers - benefits most Canadian citizens and permanent residents don't receive."

If refugees can pay 20K-45K to come here then they can afford to pay these medical expenses. Not Bad Minister.

[Hitman21]

"Kenney's tough medicine for refugee claimants means they will no longer have eye, dental, or prescription drug expenses covered by taxpayers - benefits most Canadian citizens and permanent residents don't receive."

If refugees can pay 20K-45K to come here then they can afford to pay these medical expenses. Not Bad Minister.

Agreed. These aren't refugees and they shouldn't get healthcare

[bullionaire]

On Tuesday, the NDP's Craig Scott called on MPs give the bill a rough ride in committee "and not back the government in what is ultimately repressive legislation.


This is why I'll never vote NDP. They care more about these parasites than Canadians.

[Hitman21]

This is why I'll never vote NDP. They care more about these parasites than Canadians.

Agreed. The NDP claim to care about about Canadians but these same useless refugees hurt those Canadians

[Dina_E]

the NDP are taliban sympathizers.

even one of their own northern ontario NDP mp defected this week over their support of the LIEberals tax on the rich.

[flexwong]

the NDP are taliban sympathizers.

even one of their own northern ontario NDP mp defected this week over their support of the LIEberals tax on the rich.

:facepalm:

Way to confuse federal and provincial politics. A FEDERAL NDP MP is choosing to sit as an independent because his stance on the Long Gun Registry is different from that of his colleagues, and he was tired of being whipped on that one issue.

The PROVINCIAL NDP supported the PROVINCIAL Liberal government tax on the rich.

[hugh_da_man]

It makes no sense for refugees to get better treatment than Canadian citizens. Good job Conservatives! This is the kind of good work you get with a majority.

They really should eliminate the refugee program as it exists now and just go to a system where they select specific places to accept refugees from. Lots of refugees these days are people who came here as visitors, applied for permanent residency but were denied so they apply for refugee status to stay in the country and be able to work and get free health care. Then 3 years later when they finally get around to processing the refugee claim their lawyer will tell them to just not go to the meeting because nothing will happen and they can basically stay in the country for 5 years working with free healthcare.

I'd much rather we spend the money pulling people out of countries where they're actually at risk of being killed rather than dealing with the mexican people who come here and then claim they're in danger in mexico...where many Canadians travel for vacation...

[Hitman21]

It makes no sense for refugees to get better treatment than Canadian citizens. Good job Conservatives! This is the kind of good work you get with a majority.

They really should eliminate the refugee program as it exists now and just go to a system where they select specific places to accept refugees from. Lots of refugees these days are people who came here as visitors, applied for permanent residency but were denied so they apply for refugee status to stay in the country and be able to work and get free health care. Then 3 years later when they finally get around to processing the refugee claim their lawyer will tell them to just not go to the meeting because nothing will happen and they can basically stay in the country for 5 years working with free healthcare.

I'd much rather we spend the money pulling people out of countries where they're actually at risk of being killed rather than dealing with the mexican people who come here and then claim they're in danger in mexico...where many Canadians travel for vacation...

Agreed. The program right now has huge potential for abuse and it has to be stopped. Hopefully the government will put an end to this nonsense

[divx]

By trying to drill some common sense into people like you. It's futile though so I gave up the first day.

I got bad news and good news for you. The bad news is that capitalism is here to stay, and good news is Canada is a free country, you are welcome to leave, if you have trouble finding a non-capitalistic society I'm sure we can help to point you in the right direction, probably the direction towards North Korea.

[Hitman21]

I got bad news and good news for you. The bad news is that capitalism is here to say, and good news is Canada is a free country, you are welcome to leave, if you have trouble finding a non-capitalistic society I'm sure we can help to point you in the right direction, probably the direction towards North Korea.

Exactly, Capitalism is freedom and many countries were built on it

[anyasok]

Exactly, Capitalism is freedom and many countries were built on it
:facepalm:

[danfromwaterloo]

:facepalm:

It actually makes me laugh that you facepalm this. Someone is fully detached from reality.

[anyasok]

It actually makes me laugh that you facepalm this. Someone is fully detached from reality.
:facepalm:

Detachment... rrrrrright... did you do an MRI lately? They might find a capitalistic gene there. Maybe time to get treatment for this disorder? It makes you less of a human you know..

[flashy_mcflash]

ANY system - capitalism, communism, and all the shades of grey in between can be used to both promote and restrict freedom, you idiots. All of you. In every system there is an oppressor and the oppressed.

[anyasok]

ANY system - capitalism, communism, and all the shades of grey in between can be used to both promote and restrict freedom, you idiots. All of you. In every system there is an oppressor and the oppressed.
In every system based on politics and money - yes. When you strip all that bollocks away, you get no oppressors or opressed.

[flashy_mcflash]

In every system based on politics and money - yes. When you strip all that bollocks away, you get no oppressors or opressed.

Most of us gave up this idealistic worldview after high school, I think, but there is probably an island somewhere you could move to and not have to deal with either politics or money.

http://i.imgur.com/Izzqd.gif

[Hitman21]

It actually makes me laugh that you facepalm this. Someone is fully detached from reality.

Agreed. Many people have no idea just how much they have benefited from Capitalism

As for the thread, all the benefits must be cancelled as well deporting the illegal refugees to save taxpayers money

[anyasok]

Most of us gave up this idealistic worldview after high school, I think, but there is probably an island somewhere you could move to and not have to deal with either politics or money.

http://i.imgur.com/Izzqd.gif
Unless humanity takes off these shackles m8, we are heading for utter destruction and annihilation. If they decide not to do it, then Ill be cheering for Earth to take this virus out as its entirely their own fault.

[flashy_mcflash]

Well good luck with that, I guess. Hope it brings you success and happiness.

[Hitman21]

Unless humanity takes off these shackles m8, we are heading for utter destruction and annihilation. If they decide not to do it, then Ill be cheering for Earth to take this virus out as its entirely their own fault.

Stop derailing the thread, this is about refugees not capitalism

[anyasok]

Agreed. Many people have no idea just how much they have benefited from Capitalism

As for the thread, all the benefits must be cancelled as well deporting the illegal refugees to save taxpayers money
Whatever benefits Capitalism had are all obsolete now. It's time has passed a long time ago and it needs to retire before it leads to humanity's extinction and its an inevitability if the course isn't reversed so its just a question of time. I see here that you and all other hard-headed capitalists are ok with being extinct. Good for you.

As for the thread. All the benefits must be applied to all citizens now instead of just the illegal refugees and nothing needs to be cancelled.

[Hitman21]

the NDP are taliban sympathizers.

even one of their own northern ontario NDP mp defected this week over their support of the LIEberals tax on the rich.

True. The NDP oppose this measure and believe refugees should get benefits which is wrong. Its because of this that I'll never vote NDP

[divx]

Unless humanity takes off these shackles m8, we are heading for utter destruction and annihilation. If they decide not to do it, then Ill be cheering for Earth to take this virus out as its entirely their own fault.

what's up with you and your beef against humanity?

[flashy_mcflash]

what's up with you and your beef against humanity?

Anya and hitman both. Hitman was railing against democracy the other day which is wrong because democracy has given us many benefits.

[divx]

Anya and hitman both. Hitman was railing against democracy the other day which is wrong because democracy has given us many benefits.

looks like we harbor a lot of extremists here

[vlado416]

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/24/refugee-health-care-benefits-go-under-the-knife

This is very good news for the taxpayer, these people should not be getting healthcare especially when many Canadians cant get it yet pay taxes. Hopefully this will help to stop more refugees from coming in

Do you think that is a good idea or should the government go further?

This topic sounds more like a marketing campaign by the medical industry and I have seen it before . I have heard
them claim that they are "running out" of synthetic drugs which is stupid because they are grown in the lab , not on the field so there can not be a shortage
due to circumstances.
They also claim that there are "waiting lists" for surgeries for months if not years so anyone hearing that should probably sign up
for surgery today just to get in line. Now this notion that immigrants are invading here because of our "wonderful healthcare" is another
step in improving the perception of their product because if all these immigrants are using it so should everyone else.

I hope you all understand that you have been played by a marketing campaign
Please spare me the notion that this is done to benefit the taxpayers. Medical bills are the prime cause
of bankruptcy in the US , most probably in CA as well and their drugs and surgeries for profit are top 3 cause of death.
Yet you will hardly ever hear it or have anyone be genuinely concerned about it or even talk about taxpayer issue on that level.

[Hitman21]

looks like we harbor a lot of extremists here

When was I railing against democracy? I am not an extremist

[flashy_mcflash]

When was I railing against democracy? I am not an extremist

Yes you are. And you are a LIAR as well.


Agreed. Democracy doesn't work

You are a member of one or both of these extremist groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land

[anyasok]

what's up with you and your beef against humanity?
If you dare ask me that after reading most of what I said here and elsewhere, then you're really pretty damn ignorant. Humanity came off with an inefficient system that is not serving their needs anymore that will take down all of us to hell pretty soon and the rich people in charge of this charade seem to think its all fine and dandy for them to live off of the sweat and tears of others that could easily hunt them down like dogs and make them pay for the repeated crimes they commit.

This "let it flood after us" mentality is what I despise humanity for and the abnormal system they keep maintaining just because there is a vested interest in keeping it for the benefit of a few.

[danfromwaterloo]

:facepalm:

Detachment... rrrrrright... did you do an MRI lately? They might find a capitalistic gene there. Maybe time to get treatment for this disorder? It makes you less of a human you know..

The world is a cold place. Capitalism is honest - the strong survive and the weak die. Other forms of government - communism for one - fed the world a lie by saying everybody was treated equally. Except, some were treated more equally than others.

I believe in a socialist-capitalist system like we have in Canada. We give all citizens the basics to succeed - education, healthcare, other basic social safety nets such as EI, pension, and welfare. This gives everybody the foundation to be able to succeed and thrive. The rest, we leave up to hard work, intelligence, opportunity, and good fortune.

[Hitman21]

Hopefully these cuts will also apply to the 500 illegal tamil refugees that came here, it is wrong that they have never paid taxes and get benefits

[danfromwaterloo]

If you dare ask me that after reading most of what I said here and elsewhere, then you're really pretty damn ignorant. Humanity came off with an inefficient system that is not serving their needs anymore that will take down all of us to hell pretty soon and the rich people in charge of this charade seem to think its all fine and dandy for them to live off of the sweat and tears of others that could easily hunt them down like dogs and make them pay for the repeated crimes they commit.

This "let it flood after us" mentality is what I despise humanity for and the abnormal system they keep maintaining just because there is a vested interest in keeping it for the benefit of a few.

The world we humans have created is not so far removed from the jungles where we were evolved. Lions eat deer. Deer eat grass. Everywhere you look, there's natural competition that occurs that separates the winners from the losers; the successful from the failures; the live and thriving from the dead and dying.

So long as there is scarcity within commodities such as food, water, shelter, clothing, etc. there will always be competition. There will always be people who have more and people who have less. And at the ends of this scale, there will always be greedy people with excess and people with nothing that die.

Give me one example in the history of our entire existence where everybody was treated equally. I would say inequity (not inequality) is one of our most human traits.

[anyasok]

The world is a cold place. Capitalism is honest - the strong survive and the weak die. Other forms of government - communism for one - fed the world a lie by saying everybody was treated equally. Except, some were more equally than others.

I believe in a socialist-capitalist system like we have in Canada. We give all citizens the basics to succeed - education, healthcare, other basic social safety nets such as EI, pension, and welfare. This gives everybody the foundation to be able to succeed and thrive. The rest, we leave up to hard work, intelligence, opportunity, and good fortune.
This social darwinistic crap seriously needs to die. All of these factors are so distorted in the world today that none of them matter that much anymore anyways nor are there any benefits or anything like that that truly help people. They exist to sugarcoat to the citizens that something is being done when honestly nothing is being done. I can break it down to you if you wish although I did it in the past already.

The universe is a cold place, but Earth is cold only because humans made it that way.

[anyasok]

The world we humans have created is not so far removed from the jungles where we were evolved. Lions eat deer. Deer eat grass. Everywhere you look, there's natural competition that occurs that separates the winners from the losers; the successful from the failures; the live and thriving from the dead and dying.

So long as there is scarcity within commodities such as food, water, shelter, clothing, etc. there will always be competition. There will always be people who have more and people who have less. And at the ends of this scale, there will always be greedy people with excess and people with nothing that die.

Give me one example in the history of our entire existence where everybody was treated equally. I would say inequity (not inequality) is one of our most human traits.
The scarcity is artificial. There is more than enough resources to feed and clothe everyone in the world today and provide for a decent standards of living if the distortions of money, capitalism and everything surrounding that are taken out of the equation. Money/Capitalism are just an extension of human stupidity. It was originally designed to facilitate the allocation of resources to everyone. Look at the disfigurement it underwent - a single Wallstreet warlord (cause that's what they are) can stand for tens of millions of people but the resources are distributed to him only in excess because the system is setup that way.

Earth is common heritage of all people. History is the worst possible example to judge the future on. We have the technology and we have the means to provide for everyone without using the mechanisms of money/capitalism. It isn't done because of the way the system is setup for the vested interest of particular groups of people.

Inequality is FAR FAR from being a human trait. You could say survival of the fittest is demonstrated in the living world through natural mechanisms while everything here is entirely unnatural, artificial. We are so much more evil than Nature is (to anthropomorphize it) with its other species since we created the very mechanicms that will lead to our inevitable extinction outside of it.

There is a different way. But people are complacent and afraid while others are merely oppressed and left to die. This is a horrible horrible world to live in and those who justify it using social darwinistic propaganda and other bullocks honestly make me sick (nothing personal).

[danfromwaterloo]

The scarcity is artificial. There is more than enough resources to feed and clothe everyone in the world today and provide for a decent standards of living if the distortions of money, capitalism and everything surrounding that are taken out of the equation. Money/Capitalism are just an extension of human stupidity. It was originally designed to facilitate the allocation of resources to everyone. Look at the disfigurement it underwent - a single Wallstreet warlord (cause that's what they are) can stand for tens of millions of people but the resources are distributed to him only in excess because the system is setup that way.

Your construct of fairness and equality for all is actually the most artificial of all setups because there's never been any system ever implemented that gives people true equality. When was the last time you went hungry to feed a homeless guy? Or bought a stranger new clothes instead of yourself? Your beliefs are the basest of hypocracies because you don't practice what you truly preach. I make no apologies for having more than others because I compete successfully. Through a combination of luck, intelligence and hard work, I'm able to provide a good life for me and my family. Why should I be forced to live the same life as someone who isn't as smart, intelligent, educated, or lucky?



Earth is common heritage of all people. History is the worst possible example to judge the future on. We have the technology and we have the means to provide for everyone without using the mechanisms of money/capitalism. It isn't done because of the way the system is setup for the vested interest of particular groups of people.

It's set up this way because the best survive, and the worst die. Its survival of the fittest.



Inequality is FAR FAR from being a human trait. You could say survival of the fittest is demonstrated in the living world through natural mechanisms while everything here is entirely unnatural, artificial. We are so much more evil than Nature is (to anthropomorphize it) with its other species since we created the very mechanicms that will lead to our inevitable extinction outside of it.

Says who? You? The state of nature is inequality. We've never deviated from that. The best we can do is say that all people have equal protection under the law, and that took 200,000 years of evolution to accomplish. And evil is a human construct, so of course we're more evil than nature. Evil requires sentience, and to date, humans are the only sentient species we've ever come across.



There is a different way. But people are complacent and afraid while others are merely oppressed and left to die. This is a horrible horrible world to live in and those who justify it using social darwinistic propaganda and other bullocks honestly make me sick (nothing personal).

I'm sure there's a different way, but for now, capitalism is the best system we have. Those who work hard succeed. Those who don't fail. And yes, it may seem like a cold and horrible world, but since there's no basis for comparison, you can't conclude that absolutely. In fact, today's world is better than it's ever been. More people have free healthcare. More people have social safety nets. Less people in developed worlds die from sicknesses and plagues. Women are treated equally in many parts of the world. It takes a lot to change the planet - and we are getting better.

[Hitman21]

It looks like the NDP/Liberals aren't happy about this. It doesn't make sense how they could oppose this

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/25/ndp-grits-slam-tory-refugee-prescription

[divx]

The scarcity is artificial. There is more than enough resources to feed and clothe everyone in the world today and provide for a decent standards of living if the distortions of money, capitalism and everything surrounding that are taken out of the equation. Money/Capitalism are just an extension of human stupidity. It was originally designed to facilitate the allocation of resources to everyone. Look at the disfigurement it underwent - a single Wallstreet warlord (cause that's what they are) can stand for tens of millions of people but the resources are distributed to him only in excess because the system is setup that way.

Earth is common heritage of all people. History is the worst possible example to judge the future on. We have the technology and we have the means to provide for everyone without using the mechanisms of money/capitalism. It isn't done because of the way the system is setup for the vested interest of particular groups of people.

Inequality is FAR FAR from being a human trait. You could say survival of the fittest is demonstrated in the living world through natural mechanisms while everything here is entirely unnatural, artificial. We are so much more evil than Nature is (to anthropomorphize it) with its other species since we created the very mechanicms that will lead to our inevitable extinction outside of it.

There is a different way. But people are complacent and afraid while others are merely oppressed and left to die. This is a horrible horrible world to live in and those who justify it using social darwinistic propaganda and other bullocks honestly make me sick (nothing personal).

you sir, are even more delusional and radical than the likes of Syne and Hitman21, why don't you work towards your idealistic views? Go make a weapon that will end the human parasites.

[anyasok]

you sir, are even more delusional and radical than the likes of Syne and Hitman21, why don't you work towards your idealistic views? Go make a weapon that will end the human parasites.
Please dont bunch me in with the likes of Hitman21 since we disagree with him on everything. Syne is much better although I dont see eye-to-eye with him on this issue at all either...

[divx]

Please dont bunch me in with the likes of Hitman21 since we disagree with him on everything. Syne is much better although I dont see eye-to-eye with him on this issue at all either...

extremist don't necessary agree with each other, especially when hitman21 is extreme right and syne is extreme left, although I'm not sure where to place you, you are just extreme.

[tr!xxy]

Hitman21 really has a thing against immigrants, eh? What a low-life, go work for CIC if you want to see your crusade thru...posting on RFD isn't going to do anything.

[anyasok]

extremist don't necessary agree with each other, especially when hitman21 is extreme right and syne is extreme left, although I'm not sure where to place you, you are just extreme.
Extreme or not - its rational.
Read about the Venus Project:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/

Or as a transition stage, the following system would work as well:
http://molecularism.com/

Also, there is no "left" or "right" in nature and by divvying people up into one camp or another you are perpetuating the core of the human fallacy.

[flashy_mcflash]

Extreme or not - its rational.


It's a lot of things but rational isn't one of them.

[Hitman21]

you sir, are even more delusional and radical than the likes of Syne and Hitman21, why don't you work towards your idealistic views? Go make a weapon that will end the human parasites.

How am I an extremist? I recall in another thread you claiming to be a libertarian, on many issues I am Libertarian so what makes me an extremist. I agree with you on Syne and Anyasok

As for the thread this is a good step in the right direction, we need to stop the amount of refugees that are coming into the country

[Hitman21]

Hitman21 really has a thing against immigrants, eh? What a low-life, go work for CIC if you want to see your crusade thru...posting on RFD isn't going to do anything.

I don't have anything against immigrants, only the illegal immigrants and illegal refugees. Why do you resort to name calling since you disagree with me? I post on RFD to express my opinion like everyone else

[anyasok]

How am I an extremist? I recall in another thread you claiming to be a libertarian, on many issues I am Libertarian so what makes me an extremist. I agree with you on Syne and Anyasok

As for the thread this is a good step in the right direction, we need to stop the amount of refugees that are coming into the country
Hitman, how about I stop paying for your healthcare? That's fair too. There are way too many of you after all as well.

[Zarmyers]

If they also have the same benefits that tax payer have that's not good for tax payer like us. Instead of having those money for other useful benefits for us, their getting those money just incase.

[Hitman21]

If they also have the same benefits that tax payer have that's not good for tax payer like us. Instead of having those money for other useful benefits for us, their getting those money just incase.

Yes and this is where the system is so screwed up because they never paid taxes yet consume our welfare and other programs

[danfromwaterloo]

Extreme or not - its rational.
Read about the Venus Project:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/

Or as a transition stage, the following system would work as well:
http://molecularism.com/

Also, there is no "left" or "right" in nature and by divvying people up into one camp or another you are perpetuating the core of the human fallacy.

Read your own link:

http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/resource-based-economy

By overcoming scarcity, most of the crimes and even the prisons of today's society would no longer be necessary.

Well duh! There's no such thing as greed when you can eat your fill.

This whole website is so pie-in-the-sky its ludicrous. It has wonderful thoughts, but zero implementation strategy. We call those dreams.

[danfromwaterloo]

Hitman, how about I stop paying for your healthcare? That's fair too. There are way too many of you after all as well.

Based on your apparent naivete, I highly suspect you've graduated from school yet. So, I suspect you don't even pay for your own healthcare.

[anyasok]

Based on your apparent naivete, I highly suspect you've graduated from school yet. So, I suspect you don't even pay for your own healthcare.
Based on your grammar errors, I'd suspect even worse... I am 25.

[Hitman21]

Hitman, how about I stop paying for your healthcare? That's fair too. There are way too many of you after all as well.

Except that I pay taxes for healthcare and I prefer a system where people pay for themselves. Refugees should not be getting healthcare

[divx]

Based on your grammar errors, I'd suspect even worse... I am 25.

I don't see any grammar error there.

[divx]

Except that I pay taxes for healthcare and I prefer a system where people pay for themselves. Refugees should not be getting healthcare

you mean the states? they pay their own healthcare, you find it ok to let poor people die because they can't afford the cure? although I do agree with you that illegals should get the boot.

[manmanny]

Except that I pay taxes for healthcare and I prefer a system where people pay for themselves. Refugees should not be getting healthcare

Correct. But that user is also part of this system and we never asked him why we should pay for his HC/education etc..etc...

[divx]

Extreme or not - its rational.
Read about the Venus Project:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/

Or as a transition stage, the following system would work as well:
http://molecularism.com/

Also, there is no "left" or "right" in nature and by divvying people up into one camp or another you are perpetuating the core of the human fallacy.

post a tl;dr version

[divx]

How am I an extremist? I recall in another thread you claiming to be a libertarian, on many issues I am Libertarian so what makes me an extremist. I agree with you on Syne and Anyasok

As for the thread this is a good step in the right direction, we need to stop the amount of refugees that are coming into the country

compared to anyasok, neither you nor syne is that extreme, at least it's possible for me to agree with you two on certain views, but with anyasok, no sane person could do that.

[Hitman21]

compared to anyasok, neither you nor syne is that extreme, at least it's possible for me to agree with you two on certain views, but with anyasok, no sane person could do that.

I agree.

But what issues make me an extremist though?

[divx]

I agree.

But what issues make me an extremist though?

you view me as a socialist.

[flashy_mcflash]

I would say that dismantling our health care system and the very idea of democracy itself (the latter is shared by both Hitman and anyasok) is quite extreme.

[manmanny]

I agree.

But what issues make me an extremist though?
Any view which is not NDP
or against illegal immigration
or question the "anything Free Norm"
is extremists view I guess on RFD.

[Hitman21]

you view me as a socialist.

I don't think your a socialist but some of your views do worry me such as welfare/budgets and in another thread where I posted about the minimum wage being racist against black people

[danfromwaterloo]

Based on your grammar errors, I'd suspect even worse... I am 25.

HAHAHAHA....and what, pray tell, was that error?

[anyasok]

compared to anyasok, neither you nor syne is that extreme, at least it's possible for me to agree with you two on certain views, but with anyasok, no sane person could do that.
What the hell is tldr version anyways?

And Venus Project/Zeitgeist Movement has millions of followers so clearly there are a lot of sane people out there.

[danfromwaterloo]

What the hell is tldr version anyways?

And Venus Project/Zeitgeist Movement has millions of followers so clearly there are a lot of sane people out there.

Considering there are BILLIONS of people on the planet, these "sane" people are in the clear minority.

[Hitman21]

Considering there are BILLIONS of people on the planet, these "sane" people are in the clear minority.

Don't waste your time with him, your going to lose your sanity. His ideas are completely wrong and they wont work

[anyasok]

Don't waste your time with him, your going to lose your sanity. His ideas are completely wrong and they wont work
Your other thread was already locked due to its obviously misguided attacks on Quebec and their absolutely reasonable tuition hike protests, so please refrain on commenting on something you didn't even bother reading through due to your bias against it.

And these are not "my" ideas. These are the only rational alternatives if we are to avoid extinction and the system. Your capitalism is failing and will cave in on itself completely in the not too far off future so i'll see you embarassed there not too long from now.

[Hitman21]

Your other thread was already locked due to its obviously misguided attacks on Quebec and their absolutely reasonable tuition hike protests, so please refrain on commenting on something you didn't even bother reading through due to your bias against it.

And these are not "my" ideas. These are the only rational alternatives if we are to avoid extinction and the system. Your capitalism is failing and will cave in on itself completely in the not too far off future so i'll see you embarassed there not too long from now.

This thread is about REFUGEES which have nothing to do with Capitalism, take it to another thread :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

[anyasok]

This thread is about REFUGEES which have nothing to do with Capitalism, take it to another thread :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
:facepalm:

[danfromwaterloo]

Your other thread was already locked due to its obviously misguided attacks on Quebec and their absolutely reasonable tuition hike protests, so please refrain on commenting on something you didn't even bother reading through due to your bias against it.

And these are not "my" ideas. These are the only rational alternatives if we are to avoid extinction and the system. Your capitalism is failing and will cave in on itself completely in the not too far off future so i'll see you embarassed there not too long from now.

As you mature, take a wife, have a family, hold a job and pay taxes, you'll look back on this thread and laugh at how naive you were in your youth, and the belief that anything on this scale will ever occur. It's a pipe dream that the youth of the world hold, that eventually, gets beaten out of them. Reality is far more capitalist than "socialists" would ever have you believe.

[anyasok]

As you mature, take a wife, have a family, hold a job and pay taxes, you'll look back on this thread and laugh at how naive you were in your youth, and the belief that anything on this scale will ever occur. It's a pipe dream that the youth of the world hold, that eventually, gets beaten out of them. Reality is far more capitalist than "socialists" would ever have you believe.
Reality is Earth without humans or intelligence - whatever exists in the universe. Whatever humans created out of their own stupidity is not really reality. The universe couldnt care less about humans, money or capitalism or any other idiotic ideas. Its just the resources seeded on Earth and intelligence that evolved with a need of them. Putting artificial barriers around that and then rationalizing it as "when you have wife and family" and other bla bla is pure egocentrism (an affliction the human race has in general) because deeming a tiny sphere of nothingness (earth and humans) on the scale of the universe with their moronic concepts as "reality" is absolutely insane.

If wife, family, job and taxes change your concept of reality, then I am really sorry youre so fickle and allow human affairs to meddle into your definition of reality.

[danfromwaterloo]

Reality is Earth without humans or intelligence - whatever exists in the universe. Whatever humans created out of their own stupidity is not really reality. The universe couldnt care less about humans, money or capitalism or any other idiotic ideas. Its just the resources seeded on Earth and intelligence that evolved with a need of them. Putting artificial barriers around that and then rationalizing it as "when you have wife and family" and other bla bla is pure egocentrism (an affliction the human race has in general) because deeming a tiny sphere of nothingness (earth and humans) on the scale of the universe with their moronic concepts as "reality" is absolutely insane.

If wife, family, job and taxes change your concept of reality, then I am really sorry youre so fickle and allow human affairs to meddle into your definition of reality.

How do you stop that tinfoil hat from itching? Is there a special folding technique? Is it talcum powder that you put on it? Or do you just go the extra mile and cover your house in the stuff?

Your rants sound WAY out there. Do your houseguests avoid drinking the kool-aid you serve?

[Hitman21]

Any view which is not NDP
or against illegal immigration
or question the "anything Free Norm"
is extremists view I guess on RFD.

Agreed. Illegal refugees and immigrants getting benefits is totally wrong and a disgrace

[Hitman21]

Immigration is a privilege not a right, Its interesting that this was written by a guy named GURMUKH SINGH

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/25/immigration-is-a-privilege-not-a-right

[a-tree]

Reality is Earth without humans or intelligence - whatever exists in the universe. Whatever humans created out of their own stupidity is not really reality. The universe couldnt care less about humans, money or capitalism or any other idiotic ideas. Its just the resources seeded on Earth and intelligence that evolved with a need of them. Putting artificial barriers around that and then rationalizing it as "when you have wife and family" and other bla bla is pure egocentrism (an affliction the human race has in general) because deeming a tiny sphere of nothingness (earth and humans) on the scale of the universe with their moronic concepts as "reality" is absolutely insane.

If wife, family, job and taxes change your concept of reality, then I am really sorry youre so fickle and allow human affairs to meddle into your definition of reality.

What's wrong with human ideas and conventions? Is only nature reality? You should just go live in the forests.

[Hitman21]

What's wrong with human ideas and conventions? Is only nature reality? You should just go live in the forests.

The best thing to do is ignore him otherwise he will just keep coming back

[manmanny]

This thread is about REFUGEES which have nothing to do with Capitalism, take it to another thread :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Dont feed them. They just create a new ID and attack you and talk some unrelated to topic.

[Hitman21]

Dont feed them. They just create a new ID and attack you and talk some unrelated to topic.

I'm going to have to either ignore him or just facepalm from now

[ishfish]

There are different degrees of health benefits.

To me an accepted refugee should have the same benefits as a person collectiing SFI.

However a claimant should be granted the very basics - such as emergency care and treatment of contagious illness. Not glasses, dental, some medications and so forth. Non-profit agencies may meet the non-basic needs.

[Hitman21]

There are different degrees of health benefits.

To me an accepted refugee should have the same benefits as a person collectiing SFI.

However a claimant should be granted the very basics - such as emergency care and treatment of contagious illness. Not glasses, dental, some medications and so forth. Non-profit agencies may meet the non-basic needs.

These people really shouldn't be allowed into the country though since they aren't useful and they absolutely shouldn't be getting any benefits because that encourages them to come here

[ishfish]

These people really shouldn't be allowed into the country though since they aren't useful and they absolutely shouldn't be getting any benefits because that encourages them to come here

To me it is not just about people being useful - it is also about help them find safety.

[Hitman21]

To me it is not just about people being useful - it is also about help them find safety.

But your forgetting that they come here for our welfare though, they can be safe in other countries much closer to them, why come all the way to Canada.

[ishfish]

But your forgetting that they come here for our welfare though, they can be safe in other countries much closer to them, why come all the way to Canada.

I am not forgetting that.

I can't say I blame them for wanting One of the Best.

I do not honestly know about the details of how many of them get here - other than the stories of ships... And I do not know if it would be easier for them to go to another country. Boardering countries are likely flooded with other refugees and potentially unsafe too.

To be honest, I do not mind being in a country that takes it's share (and screens them). What that share is or should be I do not know.

[Hitman21]

I am not forgetting that.

I can't say I blame them for wanting One of the Best.

I do not honestly know about the details of how many of them get here - other than the stories of ships... And I do not know if it would be easier for them to go to another country. Boardering countries are likely flooded with other refugees and potentially unsafe too.

To be honest, I do not mind being in a country that takes it's share (and screens them). What that share is or should be I do not know.

We need to get rid of the incentives that make them come here. They could have went to countries much closer but the countries know that they come for welfare so they refuse them.

I dont like them coming in because they are helping to destroy the country

[ishfish]

We need to get rid of the incentives that make them come here. They could have went to countries much closer but the countries know that they come for welfare so they refuse them.

I dont like them coming in because they are helping to destroy the country

Maybe there is a way for them to have safety, basic health and not destroy the country.

Too ideal? I can dream.:)

I am sure there are some who contribute greatly. It would be interesting to find the differences between why and how some contribute and others drain.

Certainly I do not like those that sneak in and are not really fleeing for safety. And the kick out should be quick, not a lengthy process draining on the taxpayers. American refugees - i do not think so.

[Hitman21]

Maybe there is a way for them to have safety, basic health and not destroy the country.

Too ideal? I can dream.:)

I am sure there are some who contribute greatly. It would be interesting to find the differences between why and how some contribute and others drain.

Certainly I do not like those that sneak in and are not really fleeing for safety. And the kick out should be quick, not a lengthy process draining on the taxpayers. American refugees - i do not think so.

There are plenty of other countries for them to go to, they will destroy the country because politicians will allow them to vote

[ishfish]

There are plenty of other countries for them to go to, they will destroy the country because politicians will allow them to vote

Maybe. I just think that in the bigger human picture Canada has some responsibility to help by taking some refugees too.

[danfromwaterloo]

Maybe. I just think that in the bigger human picture Canada has some responsibility to help by taking some refugees too.

Yes, but we currently take far too much. I would like to see hard statistics on what refugees bring to Canada - do they provide a disproportionate amount of crime? Do they tax the system? Do they support themselves?

I'm happy to help people who are willing to help themselves and use the opportunity of shelter to make something of their lives. I'm not willing to support charity cases that just chew up resources that could go to Canadian charity cases.

[ishfish]

Yes, but we currently take far too much. I would like to see hard statistics on what refugees bring to Canada - do they provide a disproportionate amount of crime? Do they tax the system? Do they support themselves?



Good questions. Also what number of claimants are accepted as legit and what number are deported.

I do not know what too much is as I really do not know how many are out there universally.

[anyasok]

I'm going to have to either ignore him or just facepalm from now
I am just going to watch this amusing discussion unfold child :D:facepalm:

[danfromwaterloo]

I am just going to watch this amusing discussion unfold child :D:facepalm:

Oh, look, a 25 year old calling other people "children". Don't you have a riot to be in somewhere?

[anyasok]

Oh, look, a 25 year old calling other people "children". Don't you have a riot to be in somewhere?
I actually went to Occupy to check them out but I hated their limited oulook on things and they couldnt formulate nothing when I asked them nor were they aware of the solutions. Disappointed and a little disgusted, I went away. Waste of time.

[olssy]

There are plenty of other countries for them to go to, they will destroy the country because politicians will allow them to vote

If anyone is going to destroy the country it is people who think like you. No to refugees, immigrants, unions, social programs, etc. The Canada I see you wanting is white, xenophobic, greedy, uncaring and that values the dollar more than human life. I am exaggerating, I don't really think you are that self-centered and uncaring but all your comments on social and economic subjects seem to slant towards that direction. At the same time it seems the government in power thinks more like you than like me.

[flashy_mcflash]

If anyone is going to destroy the country it is people who think like you. No to refugees, immigrants, unions, social programs, etc. The Canada I see you wanting is white, xenophobic, greedy, uncaring and that values the dollar more than human life. I am exaggerating, I don't really think you are that self-centered and uncaring but all your comments on social and economic subjects seem to slant towards that direction. At the same time it seems the government in power thinks more like you than like me.

He has stated before that he wants to destroy the incentives that make immigrants choose Canada to emigrate to, while hilariously ignoring the fact that those same incentives keep many Canadians in Canada. I don't share your optimism about Hitman's agenda.

[Abel4Life]

Nothing wrong with refugees coming into our country LEGALLY of course.

But yah, reduce their benefits to the minimum either equal to or less then a Citizen/Permanent Resident. Unecessary spending.

[peanutz]

ANY system - capitalism, communism, and all the shades of grey in between can be used to both promote and restrict freedom, you idiots. All of you. In every system there is an oppressor and the oppressed.


Most of us gave up this idealistic worldview after high school, I think, but there is probably an island somewhere you could move to and not have to deal with either politics or money.

http://i.imgur.com/Izzqd.gifYes, flashy.


Immigration is a privilege not a right, Its interesting that this was written by a guy named GURMUKH SINGH

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/25/immigration-is-a-privilege-not-a-rightI especially like what he said here:

Canada’s immigration policies have become hostage to politics since the early 1980s, when immigrant numbers swelled and ethnic enclaves sprang up around major urban centres.

Wily politicians saw ready-made vote-banks in these ethnic enclaves and cleverly ramped up family-class immigration, as well as instituting various grants in the name of multiculturalism, to keep these vote-banks working.

Therein lies the rub. Once in place, vote-bank policies are very difficult to dismantle.

Today, any politician who tries to scale back family-class immigration, or any other category, faces a backlash from these vote-banks.

This is why it is hilarious when people who want immigration to be more selective and reduced are labelled as anti-multicultural, racist, "uncompassionate", etc. Those who make such accusations don't understand the issue from the accountability and sustainability point of view. It is absolutely fitting that the article was written by a Gurmukh Singh, because it shouldn't be classified merely as a racial/cultural issue.

[danfromwaterloo]

I actually went to Occupy to check them out but I hated their limited oulook on things and they couldnt formulate nothing when I asked them nor were they aware of the solutions. Disappointed and a little disgusted, I went away. Waste of time.

Look - a person who found Occupy too conservative! LOL

Oh, and before you go grammar nazi on other people, you should check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[danfromwaterloo]

This is why it is hilarious when people who want immigration to be more selective and reduced are labelled as anti-multicultural, racist, "uncompassionate", etc. Those who make such accusations don't understand the issue from the accountability and sustainability point of view. It is absolutely fitting that the article was written by a Gurmukh Singh, because it shouldn't be classified merely as a racial/cultural issue.

For me, it boils down to cost, not just economic, but social as well. If we accept 6,000 refugees a year, why are there 60,000+ claimants in the system right now. And why is it costing us BILLIONS of dollars a year to process them? These refugees who come into our country - are they committing crimes? Are they on welfare? Are they chewing up hospital beds or otherwise taxing our healthcare system? What is the full, bottom-of-the-line cost? And does it make sense to spend this amount on such a small number of people for the sake of charity? And, if such a small percentage of claimants are getting accepted, why are we allowing so many to enter the country?

All these questions need answering. If we could afford to save every person in trouble in the world, I'd support doing just that, but since we are already in an economic crisis - as is much of the world - we need to prioritize for the good of the entirety of Canadian society. These people are not our responsibility, and we have shouldered a disproportionate amount of refugees for a long time. I think it's time for other countries to bear the load.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees#Resettlement

Where's China on that list? Brazil? Japan? Italy? India? Russia?

There's 10 countries that absorb just under 99% of all refugees.

[anyasok]

Look - a person who found Occupy too conservative! LOL

Oh, and before you go grammar nazi on other people, you should check yourself before you wreck yourself.
You, Hitman, a-tree, DearSummer and others of your ilk shouldn't even talk as pretty much everything you say consists of irrational garbage. Sorry.

[danfromwaterloo]

You, Hitman, a-tree, DearSummer and others of your ilk shouldn't even talk as pretty much everything you say consists of irrational garbage. Sorry.

Actually no. Please illustrate to me how I'm being irrational. I believe the concept of radically changing the entire planet's socio-economic structures based on someone's inarticulate rants to be irrational. Sorry.

[anyasok]

Actually no. Please illustrate to me how I'm being irrational. I believe the concept of radically changing the entire planet's socio-economic structures based on someone's inarticulate rants to be irrational. Sorry.
Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Look at my post history. You are irrational because you support a system that its irrational, corrupt, moraly bankrupt and abusive and you think its fine and dandy to support it and as if that makes you some sort of intellectual elite.

No it doesn't.

Capitalism is the worst nightmare humanity ever hoisted upon itself and there is literally not one good thing about it that I could agree is positive and I explained in the past why that's the case. Sorry.

[danfromwaterloo]

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Look at my post history. You are irrational because you support a system that its irrational, corrupt, moraly bankrupt and abusive and you think its fine and dandy to support it and as if that makes you some sort of intellectual elite.

No it doesn't.

Capitalism is the worst nightmare humanity ever hoisted upon itself and there is literally not one good thing about it that I could agree is positive and I explained in the past why that's the case. Sorry.

Capitalism created production.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_did_Karl_Marx_think_was_one_good_thing_about_ capitalism

Even Karl Marx said so. Or is he not anti capitalist enough for you?

[Imran DeRoy]

Capitalism created production.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_did_Karl_Marx_think_was_one_good_thing_about_ capitalism

Even Karl Marx said so. Or is he not anti capitalist enough for you?



I'm no anti-capitalist, but that's a red herring.


Just because Marx acknowledged that capitalism created modern production doesn't mean he thought it was a good thing. Or anything other than a necessary step in capitalism's eventual over-accumulation of constant capital to the point of its inevitable collapse. Just because he said the proletariat who would then reshape the world economy would do so with the discipline learned from their exploited, divided labour under capitalism, doesn't exactly mean he thought positively of...capitalism.

There are a lot of failings to capitalism and the post-Keynesian model has every kind of reactionary support beam propping it up. People have a lot of right and a ton of reason to criticize modern capitalism where the market has been subjugated to multinationals, and inflation is on a permanent increase, unemployment or not.

[MrKap]

Kenney's tough medicine for refugee claimants means they will no longer have eye, dental, or prescription drug expenses covered by taxpayers - benefits most Canadian citizens and permanent residents don't receive.

Refugees get free dental, drugs and access to specialists, for free?

That's messed up.

I could understand life threatening emergency services, so if that's not what it is, then that's ridiculous. I can just imagine every single refugee with a set of invisible braces.





Also guys, Karl Marx literature could be responsible for just as many if not more deaths than mein kempf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6f/The_Black_Book_of_Communism_%28front_cover%29.gif/180px-The_Black_Book_of_Communism_%28front_cover%29.gif


Sure, Capitalism (Which Mein Kempf was not), under the right scrutiny could be an equally destructive force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Livre_Noir_du_Capitalisme


However Karl Marx was a drunken failure.



Capitalism is the worst nightmare humanity ever hoisted upon itself and there is literally not one good thing about it that I could agree is positive and I explained in the past why that's the case. Sorry.

If there is one thing I do associate with "capitalism" vs "communism" it's the berlin wall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall


Please note the people who risked their lives to escape one side of the wall to be on the other side.



The East German government issued shooting orders (Schießbefehl) to border guards dealing with defectors, though such orders are not the same as "shoot to kill" orders. GDR officials denied issuing the latter. In an October 1973 order later discovered by researchers, guards were instructed that people attempting to cross the wall were criminals and needed to be shot: "Do not hesitate to use your firearm, not even when the border is breached in the company of women and children, which is a tactic the traitors have often used".[60]


Canada has something similar, only it's called a Brain Drain. Not exactly the same thing, but similar in many regards. We are talking about the supression of the free market and free services for anyone without any debt, or worth being attached to the value of the services provided, correct?

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/studies-etudes/81-003/feature-caracteristique/5001808-eng.htm

Are we not enslaving medical professionals? Are we not witnessing the abuse of the system by granting costly services to refugees who pay less skilled, lower payed doctors from tax payer money? Do not many highly skilled professionals cross the Canadian border to work in more prosperous jobs?

[Imran DeRoy]

I am exaggerating, I don't really think you are that self-centered and uncaring but all your comments on social and economic subjects seem to slant towards that direction. At the same time it seems the government in power thinks more like you than like me.


You're not exaggerating, no. He's a vicious xenophobe bigot and a BNP-type through-and-through. It's too bad for him there's no equivalent in Canada yet, so he settles for Harper, who is close enough to Nick Griffin, anyway.,

[danfromwaterloo]

I'm no anti-capitalist, but that's a red herring.


Just because Marx acknowledged that capitalism created modern production doesn't mean he thought it was a good thing. Or anything other than a necessary step in capitalism's eventual over-accumulation of constant capital to the point of its inevitable collapse. Just because he said the proletariat who would then reshape the world economy would do so with the discipline learned from their exploited, divided labour under capitalism, doesn't exactly mean he thought positively of...capitalism.

There are a lot of failings to capitalism and the post-Keynesian model has every kind of reactionary support beam propping it up. People have a lot of right and a ton of reason to criticize modern capitalism where the market has been subjugated to multinationals, and inflation is on a permanent increase, unemployment or not.

I don't disagree that capitalism has its failings, but to say its never produced one thing of value is flat wrong. My point was that even its staunchest critics can concede it has done some positive things.

[Dina_E]

i dont get how they automatically receive health care just by landing here and applying.

its insane.

lets say somebody is diagnosed with cancer back in china and sneaks into canada and claims refugee status.

it takes a while for them to get approved or denied but in the meantime they would get cancer treatment on taxpayer money even if they get denied afterwards, they probably go back cured.

[ishfish]

i dont get how they automatically receive health care just by landing here and applying.

its insane.

lets say somebody is diagnosed with cancer back in china and sneaks into canada and claims refugee status.

it takes a while for them to get approved or denied but in the meantime they would get cancer treatment on taxpayer money even if they get denied afterwards, they probably go back cured.

I think with every wonderful program there will be abuses (Canadians, nonCanadians...).

But in the example you gave, what do you do? Deny him care? It takes about 12-18 mths to process an application. I am thinking cancer treatment could be a non-emergency (and therefore not guaranteed by the Feds), but I do not know.

[manmanny]

i dont get how they automatically receive health care just by landing here and applying.

its insane.

lets say somebody is diagnosed with cancer back in china and sneaks into canada and claims refugee status.

it takes a while for them to get approved or denied but in the meantime they would get cancer treatment on taxpayer money even if they get denied afterwards, they probably go back cured.

Is it true that Landed immigrants have to wait a month for Health care benefits?
If it is then this doesn't make sense why they have to wait and these smuggled people get soon.

[manmanny]

You're not exaggerating, no. He's a vicious xenophobe bigot and a BNP-type through-and-through. It's too bad for him there's no equivalent in Canada yet, so he settles for Harper, who is close enough to Nick Griffin, anyway.,

Why not add he is like Nazi and Hitler type. I just hate these delusional people suddenly popping up.

[vero95]

i dont get how they automatically receive health care just by landing here and applying.

its insane.

lets say somebody is diagnosed with cancer back in china and sneaks into canada and claims refugee status.

it takes a while for them to get approved or denied but in the meantime they would get cancer treatment on taxpayer money even if they get denied afterwards, they probably go back cured.

it's not insane. I think we are obligated by international laws to provide health care to them
did you read an article about refugees in Hungary recently? would you like to read such articles about Canada? I would not

[ishfish]

it's not insane. I think we are obligated by international laws to provide health care to them
did you read an article about refugees in Hungary recently? would you like to read such articles about Canada? I would not

I'd rather risk treating someone who may have intentionally "snuck in" than to risk denying it to someone who was truly escaping persecution and had cancer.