Police Who Lie: How officers thwart justice with false testimony

[LostInTruth]

Interesting and not surprising article. I can understand both side of the spectrum, and these are the articles from The Star that make me appreciate them more.

Credit: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1168154--police-who-lie-how-officers-thwart-justice-with-false-testimony?bn=1

The article is too long to post, so you'll have to click the link.


Updates:

Part 2:
Police who lie: False testimony often goes unpunished
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1169082--police-who-lie-false-testimony-often-goes-unpunished

Part 3:
Police who lie: National police body says justice system needs to act over lies
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1169873--police-who-lie-national-police-body-says-justice-system-needs-to-act-over-lies

Part 4:
Police who lie: For hollering at police, a man was beaten and Tasered
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1170089

[stuntman]

Oh what a juicy topic. I was wondering what was taking so long for this thread to start :cheesygri

[cheapmeister]

Yes the cop lied under oath in court. The videotape proved he lied, so the judge could not find credibility in the cops evidence. Not all cops are good guys.

[stuntman]

Cops lie. Good cops, bad cops.....they lie. Some intend good things. Some are just bad. Some are just going along to get along.
Nothing like a false charge against the actual victim to hide police misconduct.

I guess they never thought about what it does to their integrity.

[canehdianman]

Great article.

[Piro21]

Why does everyone always act like this is some big surprise when it's discovered? Massive police corruption and lawbreaking is the only logical conclusion when you have a group of armed men with societal power and no real checks on their behavior besides that given by their closest friends. The mafia and to a lesser extent the army operate in the same way.

[stuntman]

Why does everyone always act like this is some big surprise when it's discovered?

Not everyone....mostly the law enforcement heads. They have to act surprised, if they did not it would look like they were ignoring something bad and ugly (which they do).

[LostInTruth]

^^ I don't think anyone is surprised. I'm just posting this in appreciation for some top notch journalism. The Star usually goes places where other newspapers don't. The system definitely needs changing, but again I can also understand the mentality of the cops. I know it's a TV show (a damn good one too!), but watching The Wire really gets you thinking. I can imagine how conflicting it can sometimes get for cops. Let's face it, nobody wants to see a killer/drug lord roam the streets free.

[Imran DeRoy]

The Star is the best paper in Canada.

Glad they stuck it to corrupt pigs. The more pigs are exposed the more they are weeded out and the more good police are actually distinguishable.


to a lesser extent the army operate in the same way.

Absolutely not. The army operates with far more impunity. Is a cop ever given the leeway for civilian murder that Robert Bates is being given? Do we ever blame PTSD for cops killing kids? Do we have a separate legal system that ensures criminal cops get off sans real consequence? Would Lyddie England get three months if she had been a cop doing that to people?

The hero-worship of the military is also something the public does not extend to police. Soldiers are effectively immune from any criticism.

Police forces we can hold to some accountability. Armies, never.

[underjeep]

Cop lied but had good intentions

In Mattison's trunk that summer day were a stainless steel .357 Smith & Wesson revolver and 31 bullets. Mattison, who had a previous conviction for armed robbery, was on his way to a drug deal.

Person taking the video and submitting it thought he was doing something noble but now a dangerous criminal gets released back into streets. I feel conflicted.

[tsat]

Cop lied but had good intentions

In Mattison's trunk that summer day were a stainless steel .357 Smith & Wesson revolver and 31 bullets. Mattison, who had a previous conviction for armed robbery, was on his way to a drug deal.

Person taking the video and submitting it thought he was doing something noble but now a dangerous criminal gets released back into streets. I feel conflicted.

WTF does it matter what he was on his way to do?

If the police where able to arrest him and make the charges stick it's as simple as putting his a$$ in the paddy wagon. But no, this guy is a perfect example of a dickhead pig that can't just do his job properly. He's got to kick a$$ and take names so all the bad guys know he's a big tough guy and not to mess with the po-leece.

The real annoying thing is that nothing is going to come of it, no-one seems to do anything when pigs lie on the stand.

[MrKap]

I don't know, can't a defense lawyer ever be credited for effecting the outcome of a court decision?

Article claims the judges accuse police testimony as, " • Some of the words judges used to describe police evidence and testimony were “lie,” “fabricate,” “evasive,” “absurd,” “ridiculous,” “subversive,” “disturbing” and “pure fiction.”"

Not sure if I can buy that reasoning each and every time. Especially the "absurd" comment. Isn't criminal activity usually "absurd".

However it is nice to know that police are not always the judge, jury and executioner.

[vero95]

whatever the intentions lying in court is not good
from one side it creates an opportunity for cops to make shortcuts and not to do their job properly and from the other it may lead to unnecessary acquittals

[BananaHunter]

Police are still human. In ANY country, there are good cops and bad cops. The only difference is that in Canada, it seems there's more media attention to it. There's no perfect system. But a world with police is better than one without.

And sometimes it's not evil that forces it. Sometimes it's simple incompetence. People always use hindsight to judge police. In reality, some police may make false statements unknowingly. Maybe bad evidence gathering caused truths to be distorted.

I'm not defending this guy. I'm just saying we should keep in mind that if you look at the overall picture, police do more good than harm.

[flashy_mcflash]

A clear pattern of obfuscation and lies across many departments is not an isolated incident of incompetence, it's a systemic problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Code_of_Silence

[MrKap]

A clear pattern of obfuscation and lies across many departments is not an isolated incident of incompetence, it's a systemic problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Code_of_Silence

Flashy, this is just for you - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1422501/Are-you-Masons-challenge-to-judges.html

[Shaner]

The system definitely needs changing, but again I can also understand the mentality of the cops. I know it's a TV show (a damn good one too!), but watching The Wire really gets you thinking. I can imagine how conflicting it can sometimes get for cops. Let's face it, nobody wants to see a killer/drug lord roam the streets free.

This. It's no secret I support police in many situations, although definitely not all. While I'm not defending lying under oath, when you are certain a known criminal is riding around with guns in their trunk and you have absolutely no legal reason to stop and search them, you start trying to invent reasons to do so. I've had buddies who are cops say to me if they don't do anything the guy goes free and continues doing what he's doing, and if they invent a reason to search someone they know is carrying drugs or guns, then they might get a conviction and they might not. They look at it like it's worth the risk even if their evidence may get thrown out in court.

The video where the cop gives the guy a smack in the head, that's something that's been in the culture of policing since the beginning of time. If a guy resists, even a little bit, cops have been known to give him a little smack to smarten him up. The harder he resists, the harder he gets smacked. It's a cultural thing in policing, although it definitely is changing. It used to be the norm and not only did it happen, it was encouraged. It's no longer being tolerated though and cops are facing charges for such behaviour. It's something you're going to see less and less of, although with cell phones we think it's happening more now than ever, although that's completely false.

Back in the 70's and 80's, the Toronto Police had a reputation of being extremely rough. They would literally beat the hell out of people they arrested. I've talked to numerous older inmates who have told me stories of being brutally pounded by the Toronto police, and that criminals knew if they got arrested by the Toronto Police, they were in for a beating. That has drastically changed and will keep changing over time.

[flashy_mcflash]

Flashy, this is just for you - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1422501/Are-you-Masons-challenge-to-judges.html

Not really sure what I'm supposed to get from that, but thanks I guess?

[MrKap]

Not really sure what I'm supposed to get from that, but thanks I guess?

There are secret pacts everywhere.

That's why it's good news that the police, lawyers, and judges are not working in collaboration. If they did, we would all be enemies of the state.

[anyasok]

Police are the new criminals so its not really surprising.

No one really upholds justice anymore. Police are too busy staking-out speeding vehicles that pose no danger whatsoever than catching criminals.

The whole system is a big corrupt colossal waste of taxpayers money. It fills the pockets of the legal system arbitrators by catching regular citizens that don't agree with the ridicilous laws that exist to make money and for no other reason.

[Sylvestre]

not surprising, and it's a tough pill to swallow when a known, violent criminal is let go because of what appears to be bureaucratic inefficiency, but the simple fact is that the ends never justify the means. It's too slippery a slope to fall down when anyone, law enforcement or otherwise, thinks that the great good is being serviced by violating an individual's rights etc.

I don't envy cops because when something bad happens and they didn't stop it, they get blamed. When they stop something but use questionable means, they get blamed. But that's the reality of the job.

[Kohanz]

This. It's no secret I support police in many situations, although definitely not all. While I'm not defending lying under oath, when you are certain a known criminal is riding around with guns in their trunk and you have absolutely no legal reason to stop and search them, you start trying to invent reasons to do so. I've had buddies who are cops say to me if they don't do anything the guy goes free and continues doing what he's doing, and if they invent a reason to search someone they know is carrying drugs or guns, then they might get a conviction and they might not. They look at it like it's worth the risk even if their evidence may get thrown out in court.

It's ironic that in these instances the actions they took to try and put the criminals behind bars actually led to their release...

[LostInTruth]

Updates:

Part 2:
Police who lie: False testimony often goes unpunished
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1169082--police-who-lie-false-testimony-often-goes-unpunished

Part 3:
Police who lie: National police body says justice system needs to act over lies
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1169873--police-who-lie-national-police-body-says-justice-system-needs-to-act-over-lies

Part 4:
Police who lie: For hollering at police, a man was beaten and Tasered
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1170089

Again, kudos to the Toronto Star. If the police want to gain the confidence and trust of the public, they really need to stop protecting their own. The article in part 4 sounds like a bunch of highschool bullies.

[damnos]

Again, kudos to the Toronto Star. If the police want to gain the confidence and trust of the public, they really need to stop protecting their own. The article in part 4 sounds like a bunch of highschool bullies.

As well as the police who are more interested in waiting around in some downhill slope to catch ordinary people who didn't brake enough in the down slope and give them ticket as opposed to actually handle real criminal issues.

[flashy_mcflash]

As well as the police who are more interested in waiting around in some downhill slope to catch ordinary people who didn't brake enough in the down slope and give them ticket as opposed to actually handle real criminal issues.

Same with the ones who wait at the end of highway off-ramps to see if you decelerate fast enough. The offramp at Lakeshore from the Gardiner coming east is the worst for this.

[Shaner]

As well as the police who are more interested in waiting around in some downhill slope to catch ordinary people who didn't brake enough in the down slope and give them ticket as opposed to actually handle real criminal issues.


Same with the ones who wait at the end of highway off-ramps to see if you decelerate fast enough. The offramp at Lakeshore from the Gardiner coming east is the worst for this.

You can't blame the police for these things, you need to blame your mayor and MPP's. Politicians are always all over Police Chiefs to get more money from tickets, and as always, it rolls down hill. If cities would stop relying on tickets as revenue, then you would see much, much less police doing this. Some actually enjoy doing this as they have no motivation to do other things, but most don't like sitting around handing out tickets, they are following orders.

I'd say write your local politicians, but it won't do any good, so instead you may as well just stay within 15 km of the speed limit and you won't have to worry about it.

[flashy_mcflash]

Yeah, definitely true. It's much worse around the end of the month - quota time.

[zz000ter]

Would you lie if you screwed up to protect your job?
Would you lie to get more credit on your job so you get promotion?

Of course your would.
Cops are just human and do the same thing.

They care about their job and not about you.

They do not care that it will cost your thousands to clear your name

[LostInTruth]

Would you lie if you screwed up to protect your job?
Would you lie to get more credit on your job so you get promotion?

Of course your would.
Cops are just human and do the same thing.

They care about their job and not about you.

They do not care that it will cost your thousands to clear your name

I would say the lie has a greater impact the higher up the job scale you are, but this comparison does not justify lying in a court of law.

[Syne]

Would you lie if you screwed up to protect your job?
Would you lie to get more credit on your job so you get promotion?

Nope.

Does this make me morally superior to police?

[zz000ter]

My speculation is that 95% of people would lie.

[stuntman]

Would you lie if you screwed up to protect your job?
Would you lie to get more credit on your job so you get promotion?

Of course your would.
Cops are just human and do the same thing.

They care about their job and not about you.

They do not care that it will cost your thousands to clear your name

Lets leave the cops that jobs are not on the line out of this for a moment:

Are you kidding us?
1) Some people don't get cleared. They get sent to jail based on false testimony.
2) Some cops harm people knowing that they can get out of it with a lie that they intend to make.

For the most part this isn't about saving their jobs. This is about them intentionally victimizing the public.

[zz000ter]

Cops get evaluated on how many arrests and convictions they make.
It might not be part of the official evaluation process but there is the unofficial culture they live by.
They are fallible - they make mistakes - they lie to cover up their story.

They see themselves as the sheep-dogs and we are just the sheep.
To them, a bad conviction is just collateral damage and a small cost for the greater good.

They do not care - to a cop, we are all perps.

[stuntman]

Cops get evaluated on how many arrests and convictions they make.
It might not be part of the official evaluation process but there is the unofficial culture they live by.
They are fallible - they make mistakes - they lie to cover up their story.

They see themselves as the sheep-dogs and we are just the sheep.
To them, a bad conviction is just collateral damage and a small cost for the greater good.

They do not care - to a cop, we are all perps.

So you are agreeing/saying....it is not about saving their jobs it is about getting ahead? Yes, some do it to get ahead, cops don't lose their jobs because they have fewer arrests.