request disclosure, received bacon

[yao416]

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6370/20120504140234.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/20120504140234.jpg/)

[flyz]

You got trolled bro.

[Jeff-TheBiz]

looks like the defence will be easy..

[booblehead]

U need to see the note under the black light. :lol:

[aaronl3e7]

Looool

[KorruptioN]

Amazing

[yao416]

Guise. Need help fighting this ticket. Its a 123 on a 90 ticket

[bobbings]

Guise. Need help fighting this ticket. Its a 123 on a 90 ticket

Lucky guy.

[yao416]

Lucky guy.

Lucky girl *

[yao416]

Its my sisters. What should she say

[r1lee]

lol, why don't you ask your buddy Vaportech. He's the master at this stuff.

[yao416]

lol, why don't you ask your buddy Vaportech. He's the master at this stuff.

He no help. So i ask the community

[r1lee]

He no help. So i ask the community

when's the court date? curious...

[yao416]

when's the court date? curious...

May 16.

[r1lee]

May 16.

May 16th? so 12 days from now?

isn't that a little late to receive a disclosure? But i guess you really don't have much to review.

[yao416]

May 16th? so 12 days from now?

isn't that a little late to receive a disclosure? But i guess you really don't have much to review.

Yeah.

[ryosayku]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/652/pushbutton.jpg

[KorruptioN]

May 16th? so 12 days from now?

isn't that a little late to receive a disclosure? But i guess you really don't have much to review.

I got my disclosure four days before my scheduled court date. It certainly was more than this, though...

[yao416]

Seriously. What should my sister say. :s

[vaportech]

Lol there's no notes?

Insufficient evidence will be dismissed in court.

Just show up and the prosecutor will most likely drop it.

[yao416]

Lol there's no notes?

Insufficient evidence will be dismissed in court.

Just show up and the prosecutor will most likely drop it.

Nothing on the paper. Unless he used some magic marker

[vero95]

Nothing on the paper. Unless he used some magic marker

just fill it out, bro

[White Comet]

You got trolled

[jackiechan511]

Wow! This is unprecedented. Now assuming, the prosecutor/courts actually didn't mistakenly gave you a blank sheet then there's probably a good chance that the case will be thrown out based on inadequate disclosure.

[cloakster]

Call them and see if there is way you can find out if that blank sheet is a mistake or not.

[yao416]

Omg. I was happy for a second now you guy say i can be a mistake? :(

There was two paper. One was the ticket and one is that blank note. Stapled

[jackiechan511]

Omg. I was happy for a second now you guy say i can be a mistake? :(

There was two paper. One was the ticket and one is that blank note. Stapled

The courts do make mistakes given that they process hundreds of cases each day. To make your case of inadequate disclosure strong then its best to make a 2nd request if it is indeed true that the prosecution has no evidence to disclose or its sitting there in your file waiting to be picked up. If the same thing happens which is a blank page, then your case of inadequte disclosure is very strong.

[vaportech]

Blank disclosures only occur for document charges such as fail to surrender insurance etc.

However there will always be at least one note pertaining to the incident. Most cops make notes such as:

DR stopped for "reason"
1 OCC.

Yao was its a speed trap or a cop just followed your sis?


If it's a speed trap that is definitely inadequate disclosure.

A speed trap disclosure must contain, manual, notes about the stop and notes about conducting the laser/radar test during the setup of the trap.

[yao416]

Ill take my chance. Show up with the blank disclosure.

[gwan]

someone please explain to me what this blank piece of paper is

[fivesolas]

someone please explain to me what this blank piece of paper is

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3i9l9ww2u1ql8dh3.jpg

[yao416]

Blank disclosures only occur for document charges such as fail to surrender insurance etc.

However there will always be at least one note pertaining to the incident. Most cops make notes such as:

DR stopped for "reason"
1 OCC.

Yao was its a speed trap or a cop just followed your sis?


If it's a speed trap that is definitely inadequate disclosure.

A speed trap disclosure must contain, manual, notes about the stop and notes about conducting the laser/radar test during the setup of the trap.

Cop followed my sister from DVP then pulled her over on a local street

[yao416]

someone please explain to me what this blank piece of paper is

Self explanatory lol

[niroopg]

shade the entire sheet, see if it elucidates hidden writing through imprinting from the page above it.

It may also be a secret map that leads to a new lambo.

[niroopg]

take the police department to civil court for trolling and damages due to racial bias.

[yao416]

take the police department to civil court for trolling and damages due to racial bias.

Any good lolyer?

[niroopg]

Any good lolyer?

You don't need a lawyer. Just hold up the blank sheet and say, " I rest my case" and start crying.

[fastlayne]

...you guy say i can be a mistake? :(

Only your parents know if you are a mistake. :D


Ill take my chance. Show up with the blank disclosure.

Keep everything intact. I hope you still have the original enelope, showing your address and other relevant postal markings. I would bring everything.

But as others have said, a request for the correct disclosure might go further with the judge, but could get you to a second court date, which is not preferred.

Also, don't show anything until you confirm that the officer is present for your case.

One last thing.

If you make a copies of the blank disclosure, they may be worth something to the RFD community. ;)

[aaronl3e7]

Just talked to my lawyer friend, he said that the best course of action at this point would be to show up about half an hour before court and speak to the prosecutor to try to work out a deal "to save the court's time" as he put it.

[yao416]

Only your parents know if you are a mistake. :D



Keep everything intact. I hope you still have the original enelope, showing your address and other relevant postal markings. I would bring everything.

But as others have said, a request for the correct disclosure might go further with the judge, but could get you to a second court date, which is not preferred.

Also, don't show anything until you confirm that the officer is present for your case.

One last thing.

If you make a copies of the blank disclosure, they may be worth something to the RFD community. ;)


There wasn't an envelope for the disclosure. Its just two piece of paper

[yao416]

Just talked to my lawyer friend, he said that the best course of action at this point would be to show up about half an hour before court and speak to the prosecutor to try to work out a deal "to save the court's time" as he put it.

Deal? Plead guilty with a deal? 33 over carries a 3 or 17 points. So get a deal to $20 without points?

[aaronl3e7]

Deal? Plead guilty with a deal? 33 over carries a 3 or 17 points. So get a deal to $20 without points?

33km/h over is 4 demerit points and the fine is $198 ($6 per kilometer/hour in excess of the speed limit)

I would suggest just trying bring it down to get no demerit points. There is a chance that the officer might not show, and the case will get thrown out. The chances of this are not too good in this case because this is considered a major infraction.

I am not well versed in demerit points/guilty pleas and how they affect insurance but I believe there is a thread about that http://forums.redflagdeals.com/demerit-points-do-not-affect-insurance-791274/

I'm not necessarily saying to plead guilty, but rather to have her explore her options with the prosecution before court. At this point both my friend and I say that it is better to do some damage control rather than take the hit for the full 4 points and $198 fine.Though you can of course choose to contest the charges, the method I mentioned is primarily used if she knows she was wrong without any extenuating circumstances and needs to do damage control.

[yao416]

Not completely sure if you're serious or not. If we don't get this ticket thrown out. We will ask for adjournment and i will start to work on the 11b.

It has been 13 months already.

[yao416]

A conviction is a serious business

[yao416]

Just talked to my lawyer friend, he said that the best course of action at this point would be to show up about half an hour before court and speak to the prosecutor to try to work out a deal "to save the court's time" as he put it.

By any chance you can give me his contact info? Ill hire him to help me fight this ticket. And he's that good. My cumpare vaportech has like 17 tickets on his hand.

[aaronl3e7]

By any chance you can give me his contact info? Ill hire him to help me fight this ticket. And he's that good. My cumpare vaportech has like 17 tickets on his hand.

My friend has limited experience with tickets he did a bit of this way back in his early days as a student, now he does criminal law.
He will not be ideal for this. If you are truly interested in legal council I can ask him if he knows anyone doing traffic law.

I'm not sure if those other posts were directed at me, but yes I was serious.

This is what my friend said originally.
1: that you should physically reply not guilty in court within 15 days and request a trial date.
2: speak to prosecutor and try to settle.
(It is free but the time frame here is 3-6 months)

When I told him you didn't have 3-6 months he told me to tell you to show up 30 minutes before and speak to the prosecutor and try to work out a deal
to "save the court's time"

I realize that a conviction is bad, but usually prosecutors let really stupid things go and usually like to settle, unless they are out for blood.
I've had friends who have gotten caught doing fantastically stupid things on the road (like newsworthy, OMG what was he thinking stupid).
Many of them have gotten off free without any sort of legal representation and have a clean record.

I'm not a lawyer myself, so I'm not too sure if the adjournment followed by an 11b will work, but power to you if it does.

[White Comet]

How do you work out a deal with the prosecutor? reduce to 0 points but pay fine? You'll still have a record though.

[aaronl3e7]

Form what I understand, they can reduce the charge, points, and fine to those of a minor offense.

[sam123]

I don't understand why OP would have to work out a deal with the prosecutor. There are no notes to back up the ticket. Go 30 min. early, meet with prosecutor and get case dropped or wait for your case, plead not guilty and show the Judge the disclosure. What am I missing?

[spike1128]

Who cares Yao. It's not your ticket, it's your sister's ticket. Let her get hit by the book, so she learns not to speed and be aware that a cop was following her.

[yao416]

Who cares Yao. It's not your ticket, it's your sister's ticket. Let her get hit by the book, so she learns not to speed and be aware that a cop was following her.


Family business is serious business

[yao416]

I don't understand why OP would have to work out a deal with the prosecutor. There are no notes to back up the ticket. Go 30 min. early, meet with prosecutor and get case dropped or wait for your case, plead not guilty and show the Judge the disclosure. What am I missing?

+1

[ichpen]

Yeah.

:D

Hilarious, please tell me which court :)

The prosecutor will drop it but I still think you should talk to the JP and just unfold the piece of paper with a stern face.

[Whitedart]

Omg. I was happy for a second now you guy say i can be a mistake? :(

There was two paper. One was the ticket and one is that blank note. Stapled

So why did you not post the copy of the ticket with the actual disclosure information, that was stapled to the blank note?

[yao416]

So why did you not post the copy of the ticket with the actual disclosure information, that was stapled to the blank note?

Too lazy to edit out the infos. A blank paper wouldn't need any editing :lol:

[EPcjay]

What about the radar/laser information? Did you get that disclosure? Model? Serial# ...

[yao416]

What about the radar/laser information? Did you get that disclosure? Model? Serial# ...

I don't know. I've requested three times disclosure using the ticketcomabt format. All failed.

This disclosure was requested via courts format

[longitude]

Bro, I'm here to help with your 11(b)ro.

[yao416]

Tomorrow is the big day. Lets see how it goes.

[KorruptioN]

glhf

[yao416]

Good morning guys

[tebore]

Epic.

I want to see what happens too.

[yao416]

Looks like the officer will be showing up.

Just saw the docket list. More than half were ticketed by the same officer

[yao416]

Done

[djino]

OP, although there is a good chance your ticket will be dropped, there is a process you SHOULD HAVE followed when requesting your charges to be dropped based of "improper disclosure".

Before even talking about this process, the Justice may bring into question on when you made your disclosure request? How proactive were you in obtaining additional disclosure request if previous request didn't come or came with lack of information?

I mean, you will have a thin line to stand on if you only made your first disclosure request a month before trial. If this is the area you fall in, the best you can hope for is an adjournment (your trial will be postponed to a future date). And if the trial is postponed, you can believe that the Justice will make a note that this is partially your fault (so if you make a later request to "Stay" your trial due to 11b, this will be rejected).

You need at least 15 days before trial to complete this process, so you are obviously too late, but here are the details of what you "should" have done....

[djino]

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/failed-stop-stop-sign-ticket-1168818/3/#post14659868



I recently received my disclosure, however it is lacking a lot of information that I requested for my stop sign ticket.
I only received the officer's hand written notes which has a lot of short form and illegible writing.
Do I file the Form 4F and an Affidavit of Service from ticketcombat.com?
I am a bit confused and any help would be appreciated.

One thing as of now that you can argue at Trial is 'improper disclosure' which would work in your favour, but this still isn't slam dunk case (yet). The next piece you should do is demonstrate to the Justice of the Peace that you were proactive in your attempts in getting sufficient disclosure by sending another request to the prosecutor's office specifically requesting what disclosure items you want OR visit the prosecutor's office to examine the material first hand.

http://ticketcombat.com/step4/advanced.php


Advanced Disclosure Techniques

Sometimes the requested information is too large or the prosecutor may deem the information you request irrelevant to the trial. They don't want to be bothered with photocopying everything. They will deny you disclosure and hope that you go away. Or they may not respond to you at all.

What they are doing is playing with you to see how much you know. They are trying to force you to justify what you asked for. If you can't see the material, how will you know if you need it or whether it is relevant?

To appear reasonable, you should offer to examine the material in the prosecutor's office to determine its' relevance in order to make a case for disclosure. Your request should sound reasonable in order to force the prosecutor's hand. Upon review, you can request copies of specific pages. This is usually the case for radar or laser operating manuals.


----------------------------

Having said all that and if the prosecutor is still uncooperative in giving you 'proper disclosure', then this is what you need to do next!

You need to request a STAY.

http://ticketcombat.com/step4/stay.php


Pre-Trial Strategy: Stay Your Trial

To "stay" your trial, you are stopping the judicial process. That is what "stay" means within the legal context: stop everything. You are no longer being prosecuted.

If you stay the trial, all you are doing is stopping the process of you going to trial. You do not receive a verdict. You are not being found innocent. You are not being found guilty. The charge is not withdrawn. Everything just stops.

The whole point of requesting a trial is so that you are not convicted. There is a difference between being declared innocent after a trial and never being convicted. If the justice finds you innocent or guilty she is giving a verdict. By stopping the process before your trial begins, you avoid any verdict. This is what you want, avoiding a guilty verdict or conviction.

So what happens to the charge? Nothing, it doesn't go away. Technically the court is granting you the right not to be tried. However, the Crown can appeal the decision to stay your trial. This is very rare and often the appeal is unsuccessful.

The reason you need to request a stay is because your rights have been violated. Specific to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/), Section 7 of your rights have been violated


Section 7 - the right to disclosure to help you prepare your defence and answer to the charge is a principle of fundamental justice. You must have disclosure of all the evidence before the trial. If you don't get it, you can apply for a stay.

----------------------------

NOW TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION!

There are 3 items you must follow to request a stay

http://ticketcombat.com/step4/section_109.php


Section 109 -- How it Works

If you are making a stay application then you must follow section 109. You must inform the attorneys general of your intention to raise a constitutional issue.

In order to give them proper notice, section 109 requires you to do three things:


You must follow the rules of the court.
You must use the proper form.
You must notify them at least 15 days before the court date.



(1) Rules of the Court

What are the "rules of the court"? Section 70 states that the rules of provincial offences court can be made by regulation. The regulation is called Rules Of The Ontario Court (provincial Division) In Provincial Offences Proceedings (http://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/regu/rro-1990-reg-200/latest/), otherwise known as Regulation 200. You would be wise to review these rules, especially section 7 which covers motions and applications.


(2) Proper Notice

To notify the attorneys general of Ontario and Canada you must complete this form (http://www.ontariocourtforms.on.ca/forms/civil/04f/RCP_E_04F_0707.doc) and give them copies.

For reference, here is an example form (http://ticketcombat.com/step4/form_4f_example.doc) that has been completed. A full explanation of the documents, how to complete them and when to use them is covered in the documents section (http://ticketcombat.com/step4/paperwork.php).


(3) Counting Days

Counting 15 days for you application is more complicated than it looks. According to Regulation 200, section 4.4 states that where the term "at least" is added to an expression of days, the first and last day shall not be counted. The term "at least" appears in point #3 above.

So to answer your question, YOU MUST COMPLETE FORM 4F

http://ticketcombat.com/step4/paperwork.php


Form 4F

Form 4F otherwise known as the Notice of Constitutional Question is the absolute minimum you must use if section 109 applies to you.

It is a very simple form that lets the (potentially) interested parties know that at your trial you will be making a motion to stay your charge. It is literally a note telling the prosecutor and the attorneys general of Ontario and Canada: "Hey I'm going to make a motion in court."

If all your facts and arguments do not fit on the form then you will require a "factum"


Factums

A factum is a legal brief that states your arguments. A factum for a pre-trial motion will state the facts of how you and the prosecutor handled your case. You explain how your Charter rights were infringed by the prosecutor.

Factums can also contain arguments as to why you are innocent. However if you do that you risk confusing trial arguments with a pre-trial motion for a stay. You are advised not to use this opportunity to tell your side of the story about your charge. This is NOT about arguing your innocence but about how the prosecutor has committed a wrong with the handling of your case.

As you mentioned (although not required), you should include an Affidavit.


Affidavit

The third component to your application is an affidavit. An affidavit is a formal sworn statement of fact. You are literally taking an oath stating that the contents of the affidavit are, to the best of your knowledge, true. It is used to present evidence to the court.

For your stay application, there are two kinds of affidavits you may want to use.

1. The first is an affidavit of service (http://www.ontariocourtforms.on.ca/forms/civil/16b/RCP_E_16B_0108.doc/at_download/file). Basically after giving copies of your documents to the attorneys general and the prosecutor, you complete an affidavit swearing you actually gave them the documents. You submit this to the court as proof that everyone has a copy.

The affidavit is a little confusing to use. There is a separate section for every type of method you could possibly use to deliver the documents (in person, by mail, by fax, and so on). You only have to complete one section depending on how you gave them your documents. To help you understand it, here is one with explanations included (http://ticketcombat.com/step4/16B_explained.doc).

However, if you deliver the documents by hand, they can affix their stamp on the court's copy. This stamp is all you need to prove you gave them a copy and you don't need to complete the affidavit of service.

2. The second kind of affidavit you could use contains key facts relevant to your case that you wish to submit in writing. The facts are presented without embellishment or opinion. This kind of affidavit can be used to assist your case on paper by presenting evidence or to affirm the factual contents of your stay application.

Here are some resources to help you understand this second type of affidavit:


A general guide to preparing an affidavit (http://www.lawcourtsed.ca/documents/Self_Help/BCSCHIC_Affidavit.pdf) (this example is from British Columbia).
An example affidavit (http://ticketcombat.com/step4/affidavit_example.doc) to get you started.
A more complex affidavit example (http://www.equalityrights.org/ccpi/cases/dunmoreaff.htm).


The affidavit must be signed in front of a notary, a lawyer or a commissioner of oaths. They all charge a nominal fee to do this. But you can avoid this fee and take the convenient route by completing it at the court house. Most of the clerks at the court house are commissioners of oaths and do it free of charge.

djino

[yao416]

The charge were withdrawn.

[djino]

The charge were withdrawn.

What was the reason?

[thelefteyeguy]

The charge were withdrawn.

yay...beers for everyone....Yao's paying

[spike1128]

yay...beers for everyone....Yao's paying

+10!!

[yao416]

What was the reason?

See post 1

[djino]

See post 1

I feel you were a bit lucky. You had some sort of inexperienced Justice and/or they were way too busy with people who were proceeding to trial to really look into your improper disclosure motion.

In the future, if anyone else falls into the same scenario, I would follow the correct process to stay your trial (as I display in my previous post).

djino
"Congratulations!"