The Globe and Mail - Vote: What is your attitude toward immigration in Canada?

[alanbrenton]

I know, except for the Native American Indians among us, our forebears were once immigrants too. Earlier settlers from England and the US, among others, have done a wonderful job building Canada as a nation. I can't help but notice that except for a few Asian Tiger economies, most well-run countries have been predominantly Caucasian. Let leave barter, war, colonization, etc. for history class discussions.

Before we start complaining that immigrants are taking jobs from our young adult workforce, maybe we can start petitioning our schools to be more pragmatic and to imbibe in our students the necessary skills or knowledge that the private sector seeks. I agree entirely that we should give the new graduates a crack at meaningful entry-level work but please, let's not have this feeling of self-entitlement that just because we graduated from a prestigious universities, we will be entitled to land our dream jobs, whatever those may be. Like the generations before, let's take it once step up a time and work our way up (if that is still possible). Later generations have become ones who believe in get-rich-quick schemes and pay little attention to hard work.

Sense of entitlement sapping Canada’s productivity
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/05/02/sense-of-entitlement-is-sapping-canadas-productivity/

What is your attitude toward immigration in Canada
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/vote-what-is-your-attitude-toward-immigration-in-canada/article2416057/?utm_campaign=immigration+poll&utm_medium=Print+and+interactive&utm_source=The+Globe+and+Mail

Seems like so many people are trying to provide feedback that it's causing the website to freeze. :)

[alanbrenton]

Not sure how credible this article is from December 2010:

World education rankings: which country does best at reading, maths and science?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading

Here's another from PISA:

Does money buy strong performance in PISA?
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/50/9/49685503.pdf

The bottom line: Money alone can’t buy a good education system. Strong performers in PISA are those countries and economies that believe - and act on the belief - that all children can succeed in school. Among wealthier economies, those that prioritise the quality of teachers over smaller classes tend to show better performance. When it comes to money and education, the question isn’t how much? but rather for what?

Hopefully, our teachers in Canada prioritize educating the students and making them able to think well instead of focusing on these annual collective bargaining agreements and lockouts.

[NorthYorker]

Does money buy strong performance in PISA?
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/50/9/49685503.pdf

The bottom line: Money alone can’t buy a good education system. Strong performers in PISA are those countries and economies that believe - and act on the belief - that all children can succeed in school.Wrong. Those graphs just prove that Commies did an amazing job in creating education system able to achieve strong results while running on peanuts. Absolute majority of high education-to-income countries are x-ComBloc. This is just a reminder of bygone era and will fade away.

[alanbrenton]

Wrong. Those graphs just prove that Commies did an amazing job in creating education system able to achieve strong results while running on peanuts. Absolute majority of high education-to-income countries are x-ComBloc. This is just a reminder of bygone era and will fade away.

Yes, I agree with you that money spent on education has little bearing on actual student performance. It's the quality of teachers and genuine concern that matters. A substitute teacher told my daughter a few months ago that the work on angles I had helped her on was incorrect. If it was incorrect, why didn't he/she grade it, maybe she didn't know how to use a protractor properly?

Where do the school boards get these jokers/clowns masquerading as instructors? I may need some of them during the kiddy parties.

These school boards should start shaping up and not giving tenure to undeserving teachers/professors (there are great ones for sure) as this demotivates them from putting in a lot of effort in educating the future Canadian workforce. Then, we maybe, just maybe, we will not need the influx of immigrants though our demographics is getting a little topsy turvy with an ever shrinking worker to pensioner ratio.

[Xiaozhuli]

As an immigrant, I support Canada's immigration policies. Not sure about increasing the quota dramatically though, but I believe the large majority of immigrants work hard to make this country better.

I know first-hand that immigrating isn't as easy that some people think, and that Canada just doesn't "let everyone in."

I wish more immigrants would realize fitting in and making a living here takes time.

[djemzine]

Hopefully there will be no controversial posts in this thread.

Aside that, I don't mind that the fact Canada allows or supports immigration. Its always good to have a variety, plus having overseas professionals come will help us in the long run.

[Montague]

I know, except for the Native American Indians among us, our forebears were once immigrants too.D

Are there not alot of theories that claim they many of them originally came from Asia?

[alanbrenton]

Are there not alot of theories that claim they many of them originally came from Asia?

This theory? Seems that we are all brothers and sisters then. In any case, they came before the European settlers. :)

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_were_the_7_continents_today_formed

[heymikey]

Are there not alot of theories that claim they many of them originally came from Asia?
That depends on how far you look back. One can argue that we are all from Africa, based on this theory (http://archaeology.about.com/od/oterms/g/outofafrica.htm).
Throughout human history, human migration has been a constant.

[FrogPrince]

I know, except for the Native American Indians among us, our forebears were once immigrants too. Earlier settlers from England and the US, among others, have done a wonderful job building Canada as a nation. I can't help but notice that except for a few Asian Tiger economies, most well-run countries have been predominantly Caucasian. Let leave barter, war, colonization, etc. for history class discussions.

Before we start complaining that immigrants are taking jobs from our young adult workforce, maybe we can start petitioning our schools to be more pragmatic and to imbibe in our students the necessary skills or knowledge that the private sector seeks. I agree entirely that we should give the new graduates a crack at meaningful entry-level work but please, let's not have this feeling of self-entitlement that just because we graduated from a prestigious universities, we will be entitled to land our dream jobs, whatever those may be. Like the generations before, let's take it once step up a time and work our way up (if that is still possible). Later generations have become ones who believe in get-rich-quick schemes and pay little attention to hard work.

Sense of entitlement sapping Canada’s productivity
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/05/02/sense-of-entitlement-is-sapping-canadas-productivity/

What is your attitude toward immigration in Canada
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/vote-what-is-your-attitude-toward-immigration-in-canada/article2416057/?utm_campaign=immigration+poll&utm_medium=Print+and+interactive&utm_source=The+Globe+and+Mail

Seems like so many people are trying to provide feedback that it's causing the website to freeze. :)

"Native" Americans aren't really native either. They came from somewhere else too. Plus they also came in many waves and killed/displaced those that came before them.

[flashy_mcflash]

Common usage of native peoples means the first humans to inhabit a given area. Otherwise there are no native people other than indigenous Africans.

[sandikosh]

I know, except for the Native American Indians among us, our forebears were once immigrants too. Earlier settlers from England and the US, among others, have done a wonderful job building Canada as a nation. I can't help but notice that except for a few Asian Tiger economies, most well-run countries have been predominantly Caucasian. Let leave barter, war, colonization, etc. for history class discussions.

Before we start complaining that immigrants are taking jobs from our young adult workforce, maybe we can start petitioning our schools to be more pragmatic and to imbibe in our students the necessary skills or knowledge that the private sector seeks. I agree entirely that we should give the new graduates a crack at meaningful entry-level work but please, let's not have this feeling of self-entitlement that just because we graduated from a prestigious universities, we will be entitled to land our dream jobs, whatever those may be. Like the generations before, let's take it once step up a time and work our way up (if that is still possible). Later generations have become ones who believe in get-rich-quick schemes and pay little attention to hard work.

How many potential graduates here want an entry level job? Raise hands!









ZERO!

[stealth]

...Vote: What is your attitude toward immigration in Canada
Might have wanted to include a poll in this thread ;)

[alanbrenton]

How many potential graduates here want an entry level job? Raise hands!









ZERO!

We're talking about $50k or a bit more for some entry-level positions. CA students can easily get that right off school. Entry-level with some career progression is what many students are after. But I'm sure many think of themselves as superstars so I don't know what they are aiming for.


Might have wanted to include a poll in this thread ;)

I'd rather RFD crash The Globe and Mail webpage. :)


"Native" Americans aren't really native either. They came from somewhere else too. Plus they also came in many waves and killed/displaced those that came before them.

Unless you can provide credible information on this, let's stick with what is more common knowledge. The Native Indians getting concessions for a lot of things speaks to what had happened in the past, the same way those descendants of the Chinese from the early 1900's toiling on the railroads were re-paid a portion of the head tax recently.

[olssy]

As an immigrant, I support Canada's immigration policies. Not sure about increasing the quota dramatically though, but I believe the large majority of immigrants work hard to make this country better.

I know first-hand that immigrating isn't as easy that some people think, and that Canada just doesn't "let everyone in."

I wish more immigrants would realize fitting in and making a living here takes time.

+1

I'm glad you immigrated here :)
I wish more people who aren't immigrants realize that fitting in and making a living takes time.

[Xiaozhuli]

+1

I'm glad you immigrated here :)
I wish more people who aren't immigrants realize that fitting in and making a living takes time.

Thank you ;)

I hang out in immigration forums quite a lot and got to see both sides of the equation. Entitled immigrants who completely disregard the rules and appeal to humanitarian and compassion grounds for just about any reason drive me nuts.

But from what I see around me, the vast majority of immigrants just want to fit in and enjoy their new life. It's not always easy but let's face it, cultural differences are really fun!

As for getting a job... I can't really use my own example as I came here with little practical work experience (I was 21). All I can say that most Canadians wouldn't have worked in most of the jobs I had for the first couple of years. After a while, as you start mastering the culture, you do want better opportunities and jumping for low-paid minimum wage job to salary jobs (provided you already have the matching skills, of course!) isn't easy. That barrier is the harder to break. Anyone can find a minimum wage job... not everyone manages to have foreign degrees and experience recognized.

[jungeon]

I know, except for the Native American Indians among us, our forebears were once immigrants too. Earlier settlers from England and the US, among others, have done a wonderful job building Canada as a nation. I can't help but notice that except for a few Asian Tiger economies, most well-run countries have been predominantly Caucasian. Let leave barter, war, colonization, etc. for history class discussions.

Before we start complaining that immigrants are taking jobs from our young adult workforce, maybe we can start petitioning our schools to be more pragmatic and to imbibe in our students the necessary skills or knowledge that the private sector seeks. I agree entirely that we should give the new graduates a crack at meaningful entry-level work but please, let's not have this feeling of self-entitlement that just because we graduated from a prestigious universities, we will be entitled to land our dream jobs, whatever those may be. Like the generations before, let's take it once step up a time and work our way up (if that is still possible). Later generations have become ones who believe in get-rich-quick schemes and pay little attention to hard work.

Sense of entitlement sapping Canada’s productivity
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/05/02/sense-of-entitlement-is-sapping-canadas-productivity/

What is your attitude toward immigration in Canada
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/vote-what-is-your-attitude-toward-immigration-in-canada/article2416057/?utm_campaign=immigration+poll&utm_medium=Print+and+interactive&utm_source=The+Globe+and+Mail

Seems like so many people are trying to provide feedback that it's causing the website to freeze. :)
Untrue. Just look at Europe, you consider that well run? The whole eastern and southern half of Europe is 3rd world except Italy and then its just a few major cities that are developed. In all of Europe there might be 3-4 well run countries at most and that is pretty consistent across the continents.

On the otherhand, Immigration must be at least temporarily stopped, save for family reunification. Its craziness, if we cannot build enough roads, or have enough jobs, why let in more people?

[Swarez99]

Untrue. Just look at Europe, you consider that well run? The whole eastern and southern half of Europe is 3rd world except Italy and then its just a few major cities that are developed. In all of Europe there might be 3-4 well run countries at most and that is pretty consistent across the continents.

On the otherhand, Immigration must be at least temporarily stopped, save for family reunification. Its craziness, if we cannot build enough roads, or have enough jobs, why let in more people?

Even southern Italy is no where near what the north is, but really its the Northern/Western Countries that do well, It is more than 3-4, but its definitively not the whole continent.

Europe has become really wealthy over past 70 years, that's why you see less and less Immigrants from those countries- they don't need to leave anymore. If you aren't doing well in Spain, go to Germany etc. It is the same reason most Canadians don't leave, same reason Most American's don't leave. If you live in a good country, with opportunity the masses aren't going anywhere. A lot of people say get Europeans, but the ones you want (educated, hard working) would take a step down to come here.

Another thing with Immigration is "best" immigrants still want to go to the US, this is still a secondary (or third) choice for most. We have to change something to actually attract the best.

[alanbrenton]

Untrue. Just look at Europe, you consider that well run? The whole eastern and southern half of Europe is 3rd world except Italy and then its just a few major cities that are developed. In all of Europe there might be 3-4 well run countries at most and that is pretty consistent across the continents.

On the otherhand, Immigration must be at least temporarily stopped, save for family reunification. Its craziness, if we cannot build enough roads, or have enough jobs, why let in more people?

I think I had used all my fingers counting the "industrialized" countries who are more or less considered predominantly Caucasians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country

I hear your concerns about the lack of good paying jobs and stiffer competition with new immigrants especially for entry-level positions. How does one get the experience without first landing the job?

[Dilton]

I know, except for the Native American Indians among us, our forebears were once immigrants too.
Actually the latest research suggests that the Americas were settled in several waves, ie one group came over, then thousands of years later another group came over, then thousands of years later again, etc. So even if you're a Native American you're still an immigrant, unless you belong to that specific group which were the FIRST to come here.

[alanbrenton]

Actually the latest research suggests that the Americas were settled in several waves, ie one group came over, then thousands of years later another group came over, then thousands of years later again, etc. So even if you're a Native American you're still an immigrant, unless you belong to that specific group which were the FIRST to come here.

That's even better. Our forebears are all immigrants. :) But how do the researchers travel back in time and prove their point? All the wasted money on these kinds of research probably better put to use helping the needy and the homeless and employing those who want to do actual work. Research like these don't even add value to society the way the Big Bang Theory suggests the origin of the universe. The one rule I remember from physics is one cannot create something out of nothing. That alone precludes what scientist espouse as being the birth of the universe. All these researches sound good and dandy but not sure if people should believe them. Money is better spent on research on renewable resources and advances in technology that may help developing countries get out of poverty. What good is it to know the very distant past when no one can really vouch for its accuracy?

[jungeon]

Even southern Italy is no where near what the north is, but really its the Northern/Western Countries that do well, It is more than 3-4, but its definitively not the whole continent.

Europe has become really wealthy over past 70 years, that's why you see less and less Immigrants from those countries- they don't need to leave anymore. If you aren't doing well in Spain, go to Germany etc. It is the same reason most Canadians don't leave, same reason Most American's don't leave. If you live in a good country, with opportunity the masses aren't going anywhere. A lot of people say get Europeans, but the ones you want (educated, hard working) would take a step down to come here.

Another thing with Immigration is "best" immigrants still want to go to the US, this is still a secondary (or third) choice for most. We have to change something to actually attract the best.

Why would any immigrant from Europe want to come to Canada, I find your post spot.
Lets see:
Germany, Norway, Sweden, not sure who else really has a good economy in Europe, maybe switzerland. But maybe saying North West Europe is doing well or is the most rich is an accurate statement. Most white countries outside of North West Europe are just as bad as the rest of the world. Heck Portuguese are all moving to Africa and Brazil for work.

Immigration is expensive, involves leaving behind your family, and unless you expect a big increase in standard of living its not worth the move. Moving from India which is largely poor and ghetto to Canada makes sense. Moving from Spain to Canada doesn't make sense because as an immigrant with no english there is a good chance that you won't even earn 40k which is the average salary in Canada. So why would one incurr all those cost just to be behind. Now someone born in Canada might earn 55k where his spanish immigrant counterpart in spain might earn 35k, but its not worth the move because when you count all the cost.

We need to focus less on attracting top immigrants and focus more on training on our immigrants and students that are here to fill the jobs that are "empty"

[jungeon]

I think I had used all my fingers counting the "industrialized" countries who are more or less considered predominantly Caucasians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country

I hear your concerns about the lack of good paying jobs and stiffer competition with new immigrants especially for entry-level positions. How does one get the experience without first landing the job?

The fact that such a list places Italy and Greece ahead of Dubai and Qatar should cause one to raise an eyebrow.


Its also how you view an industrial country. Most people I know would not consider Portugal, Barbados,Trinidad, Spain, Italy (save for milan/the north) developed countries. Tell a dutch that portugal is developed and he will laugh in your face. i didn't even know that France or America had any industries left, I thought they were all in China.

Anyhow the discussion is somewhat misguided. We no longer have industrialized countries, we have post industrial cities. One is better off in some major african cities or Middle Eastern cities financially than in some 1st world or industrialized countries if the city is in a decline. One is probably better off in Shanghai or some fast Asian growing city in a 3rd world country, then some musty old city with no job in France or in the rust belt where they just layoff people and pay garbage wages. In Asia, Africa and Middle east they have real labour shortages and are paying people real money not minimum wage if they have real degrees and real skills unlike in Canada where they just make up reasons to disqualify qualified applicants because they don't want to hire non immigrants who can't be nickeled and dimed down.

[Dilton]

That's even better. Our forebears are all immigrants. :) But how do the researchers travel back in time and prove their point? All the wasted money on these kinds of research probably better put to use helping the needy and the homeless and employing those who want to do actual work. Research like these don't even add value to society the way the Big Bang Theory suggests the origin of the universe. The one rule I remember from physics is one cannot create something out of nothing. That alone precludes what scientist espouse as being the birth of the universe. All these researches sound good and dandy but not sure if people should believe them. Money is better spent on research on renewable resources and advances in technology that may help developing countries get out of poverty. What good is it to know the very distant past when no one can really vouch for its accuracy?
They use a combination of DNA analysis and archeology so while they may not have a 100% accurate picture of what happened they're fairly close. And just because this stuff happened so long ago doesn't mean the research is wasted, by that logic any research into history at all is a waste.

[alanbrenton]

They use a combination of DNA analysis and archeology so while they may not have a 100% accurate picture of what happened they're fairly close. And just because this stuff happened so long ago doesn't mean the research is wasted, by that logic any research into history at all is a waste.

That only provides carbon dating and nothing more. What they uncovered are artifacts, how do they come up with the story behind these bones, tools, and carvings? All the stories are based on assumptions so what value does that add besides entertainment and a bit of insight? Any good story teller can put their own spin on these things. :) Must be another George Lucas film in the making.

I mentioned very distant past. Historical artifacts, properly identified and tagged, are valuable, and so are manuscripts, painting or memoirs/writings, if they can be confirmed original or true copies. After writing was discovered, man was able to preserve and pass on knowledge to the succeeding generations. What good are hieroglyphics to people of this world besides appreciation for these works in a museum?

Going forward, it will be much simpler to track human activities on the web.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Archive

Stories on bones, tools, and cave carvings are just that, made-up stories. Research is wasted (likely tens of thousands if not millions of dollars) since what good will those do for mankind going forward? It's nice to preserve these artifacts for future generations to appreciate but does it really justify the amount and effort spent, money that could be spent for the betterment of mankind?

Don't get me wrong. I respect Historians and Archeologists jobs and roles in the community but just wouldn't pay for the services if they weren't free.

[Troodon]

I know, except for the Native American Indians among us, our forebears were once immigrants too. Earlier settlers from England and the US, among others, have done a wonderful job building Canada as a nation. I can't help but notice that except for a few Asian Tiger economies, most well-run countries have been predominantly Caucasian. Let leave barter, war, colonization, etc. for history class discussions.

Yes, but some of the worst-run countries have also been predominantly Caucasian: Cuba, Russia, Greece, Italy, Argentina, Balkan Countries, Mexico... I don't really see why you've emphasized race as an issue.

Before we start complaining that immigrants are taking jobs from our young adult workforce, maybe we can start petitioning our schools to be more pragmatic and to imbibe in our students the necessary skills or knowledge that the private sector seeks. I agree entirely that we should give the new graduates a crack at meaningful entry-level work but please, let's not have this feeling of self-entitlement that just because we graduated from a prestigious universities, we will be entitled to land our dream jobs, whatever those may be. Like the generations before, let's take it once step up a time and work our way up (if that is still possible). Later generations have become ones who believe in get-rich-quick schemes and pay little attention to hard work.

Well, it's just that immigrants are used to a lower living standard and therefore are more willing to work harder with lower pay. Before you call that a good thing, let me ask you, how would you feel if your job got replaced by an immigrant with twice the experience earning half the pay?

Sense of entitlement sapping Canada’s productivity
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/05/02/sense-of-entitlement-is-sapping-canadas-productivity/

What is your attitude toward immigration in Canada
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/vote-what-is-your-attitude-toward-immigration-in-canada/article2416057/?utm_campaign=immigration+poll&utm_medium=Print+and+interactive&utm_source=The+Globe+and+Mail

Seems like so many people are trying to provide feedback that it's causing the website to freeze. :)

Less immigration please except for the investment types... they're good for the economy. They just come here to spend without spending any government money on education, welfare, and etc.

[Xiaozhuli]

Less immigration please except for the investment types... they're good for the economy. They just come here to spend without spending any government money on education, welfare, and etc.

I'm not sure why you think immigrants spend government money. They use services, like Canadians, but they pay taxes too you know.

Investors, on the other hand, can come to Canada just for the passport. Ultimately, do you want people who contribute to the country long-term or just come and leave?

As for the comment on welfare... give me a break. Welfare is a pittance in Canada, and I don't know any immigrant who go through the somewhat costly immigrant process and leave his country to get a mere few hundreds dollars a month.

[Troodon]

I'm not sure why you think immigrants spend government money. They use services, like Canadians, but they pay taxes too you know.

Investors, on the other hand, can come to Canada just for the passport. Ultimately, do you want people who contribute to the country long-term or just come and leave?

As for the comment on welfare... give me a break. Welfare is a pittance in Canada, and I don't know any immigrant who go through the somewhat costly immigrant process and leave his country to get a mere few hundreds dollars a month.

........ then you have no idea about the average living standard in developing countries.

[Xiaozhuli]

........ then you have no idea about the average living standard in developing countries.

Oh, I do. And I still think the vast majority of immigrants are not coming here to, once again, get a pittance from the government. It's good to know such services exist but I know more Canadian-born residents on welfare than immigrants.

[elmst200]

give us some numbers if you could on the % of people (both born in Canada and immigrants; both recent immigrants or immigrants long time ago etc) on welfare/public services, what types of welfare etc.


Oh, I do. And I still think the vast majority of immigrants are not coming here to, once again, get a pittance from the government. It's good to know such services exist but I know more Canadian-born residents on welfare than immigrants.

[elmst200]

Minimum wage in H.K is about $4/hour. A lot of people such as foreign workers (e.g. nanny) earns less than that.

Minimum wages in China's major cities are about $120-$170 per month. Most if not majority people in China (migrant workers in cities, people in the countryside etc) work below minimum wages.


........ then you have no idea about the average living standard in developing countries.

[uber_shnitz]

There's this stigma and stereotyping associated with immigration. Part of it is true and part of it is false.

First of all, we're missing lots of professionals in given sectors. Some immigrants could fill this gap however certain legislations make it so they cannot practice without obscenely long reforms so in that sense immigration isn't benefiting our society.

On the flipside you do get illegal immigrants that are on wellfare and abuse the system.
However (and this is just my personal experience), lots of immigrants will tend to try and find work once here to increase their standard of living (like factory jobs and whatnot) and will end up paying taxes anyways so they are contributing to the system.

[Xiaozhuli]

give us some numbers if you could on the % of people (both born in Canada and immigrants; both recent immigrants or immigrants long time ago etc) on welfare/public services, what types of welfare etc.

Such figures are almost impossible to get. If you manage to, please share, I'll be genuinely interested. Like I said before, I'm participating on this discussion based on my experience.


Minimum wage in H.K is about $4/hour. A lot of people such as foreign workers (e.g. nanny) earns less than that.

Minimum wages in China's major cities are about $120-$170 per month. Most if not majority people in China (migrant workers in cities, people in the countryside etc) work below minimum wages.

You are missing the point: living with welfare in Canada is probably not easy. The standard and cost of living are completely different.


There's this stigma and stereotyping associated with immigration. Part of it is true and part of it is false.

First of all, we're missing lots of professionals in given sectors. Some immigrants could fill this gap however certain legislations make it so they cannot practice without obscenely long reforms so in that sense immigration isn't benefiting our society.

On the flipside you do get illegal immigrants that are on wellfare and abuse the system.
However (and this is just my personal experience), lots of immigrants will tend to try and find work once here to increase their standard of living (like factory jobs and whatnot) and will end up paying taxes anyways so they are contributing to the system.

Same experience here.

[Troodon]

There's this stigma and stereotyping associated with immigration. Part of it is true and part of it is false.

First of all, we're missing lots of professionals in given sectors. Some immigrants could fill this gap however certain legislations make it so they cannot practice without obscenely long reforms so in that sense immigration isn't benefiting our society.


So how would you feel if your job got replaced by an immigrant with more experience willing to accept less pay?

[Aznsilvrboy]

So how would you feel if your job got replaced by an immigrant with more experience willing to accept less pay?

Then you are not competitive enough. Today we live in a globalized world. Canadian companies have to compete with companies worldwide and Canadians have to compete with people worldwide. We can't keep living in our little bubble and try to reap the benefits of globalization while not wanting to give. There is always a price.

[NorthYorker]

Such figures are almost impossible to get. If you manage to, please share, I'll be genuinely interested. Like I said before, I'm participating on this discussion based on my experience.Those numbers bounced here once or twice during past 4 months (immigration being a permanently hot topic in OT). As far as I remember, welfare rates for Landed were a bit below average, for Refugees a bit above. And here lies THE biggest mistake both you and elmst made. You were bunching different groups together, and they can't be more different. For someone capable to herd together $20K (typical budget for Landed family) in China welfare does not look too appealing, you are absolutely correct. However, for a refugee from Somalian camp in the middle of Kenian desert (someone who used to live in extreme poverty but not used to working, due to scarcity of employment opportunities) Canadian Welfare lifestyle is a dream come true. That is why, when you're talking about "Immigrants", you're both correct :) But you mean Landed and other side means Refugees.

[damnos]

There will always be exception cases in generalization and there's always some that don't fit in the category.
However, in general, often you find that Canadian-born (or at least people who have been Canadian-born for generations as opposed to 1st, 2nd or even 3rd generation) are their attitude toward what they need to do to get what they have.

Often found you'll see is section of people who feel it's their right to get certain things while on the other hands you'll see another section of people who willingly work hard and appreciate of the things that they have by living in Canada, even the simplest thing they would appreciate to have as opposed to people who take things for granted and feels it's their right, often without wanting to do work to have it.

If you see those 2 groups of people, which one do you think immigrants (new immigrants, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc generations) would fall into and which one would people who have been Canadians for generations more likely to fall into? (again of course this doesn't apply to everyone)

For example, just came across this article today: Why Immigrants Make Better Entrepreneurs (http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2012/05/09/why-immigrants/). While the article specifically talk about entrepreneurs, I think in general it describes the different attitude immigrants have, mainly due to the fact that they realized how hard life is back home and/or how they are a lot more appreciate for things that they have in Canada (or US in the case of the article)

It's not about race to the bottom, it's simply about not taking things for granted and willing to start from the bottom and work hard toward what you want to get rather than expecting it to be handed to you in a silver platter.


Immigrants like Gheorghe don’t dawdle in their pursuit of better opportunities. They start at any available entry point in the job market, and then rapidly advance toward very ambitious personal goals. They keep pushing ahead, even if it means hauling plywood on a construction site or making small talk with whatever big shots they might be driving around in a borrowed limo.

How many Canadian-born do you think would be willing to open a store 24 hour, 365 days a year, barely any rest or vacation? Compared that to immigrants who are likely to be more willing to do so. Those immigrants also are likely to actually have wealth that they don't spend, they live in a modest house, don't go out drinking and partying ... compared to the average Canadian who enjoys partying out, spending money on booze, sure you can claim that you enjoy life while immigrants dont. But on the flip side, those immigrants easily be the same people who are able to put their kids through university without loans and hence get their kids a head start financially, compared to people who had to take loans to go through university. On top of that, more often than not I've seen people who are already on OSAP but they still go to party every weekend rather than save up any money from their part time job to make sure they graduate with little to no debt.

It's simply a difference in attitude, some that take things for granted while others that are working hard and appreciative.

[Kohanz]

So how would you feel if your job got replaced by an immigrant with more experience willing to accept less pay?

Why is it relevant whether that person is an immigrant?

How would you feel, in general, if a person (Canadian born or immigrant) made you replaceable? Probably not good, but it doesn't have much to do with them being an immigrant. You're not going to say "Well, I lost my job, but at least it was to a good ol' Canadian lad".

[epiczz]

Why is it relevant whether that person is an immigrant?

How would you feel, in general, if a person (Canadian born or immigrant) made you replaceable? Probably not good, but it doesn't have much to do with them being an immigrant. You're not going to say "Well, I lost my job, but at least it was to a good ol' Canadian lad".

Yep, it's not relevant who replaces you, the very fact that you are replaced means you are not good enough and it's up to you to be better. That's how you and society as whole improves and keeping up standard

Compared to the way union works where improvement is practically discouraged to maintain same old ways, same old people, never improve.

[Troodon]

Why is it relevant whether that person is an immigrant?

How would you feel, in general, if a person (Canadian born or immigrant) made you replaceable? Probably not good, but it doesn't have much to do with them being an immigrant. You're not going to say "Well, I lost my job, but at least it was to a good ol' Canadian lad".

Well, if you're considering what's good for Canadians then obviously having a Canadian take your job is different from giving it to an immigrant (who was hitherto not a Canadian).


Yep, it's not relevant who replaces you, the very fact that you are replaced means you are not good enough and it's up to you to be better. That's how you and society as whole improves and keeping up standard

Compared to the way union works where improvement is practically discouraged to maintain same old ways, same old people, never improve.

Well technically every one of our jobs can be replaced by someone else in the world since there are so many talented people in developing nations. Do you really think you're so good that someone from India (everyone speaks English there) or China can't replace you?

The reason why wages in China and India is so low is not because the workers there are unskilled it's because the supply of labour, like any other resource, is too high compared to the demand.


Then you are not competitive enough. Today we live in a globalized world. Canadian companies have to compete with companies worldwide and Canadians have to compete with people worldwide. We can't keep living in our little bubble and try to reap the benefits of globalization while not wanting to give. There is always a price.

Actually there's no reason why we can't reap the benefits without the costs. If truly want globalization then the Canadian minimum wage will have to go down to $1/hour.

[Xiaozhuli]

Those numbers bounced here once or twice during past 4 months (immigration being a permanently hot topic in OT). As far as I remember, welfare rates for Landed were a bit below average, for Refugees a bit above. And here lies THE biggest mistake both you and elmst made. You were bunching different groups together, and they can't be more different. For someone capable to herd together $20K (typical budget for Landed family) in China welfare does not look too appealing, you are absolutely correct. However, for a refugee from Somalian camp in the middle of Kenian desert (someone who used to live in extreme poverty but not used to working, due to scarcity of employment opportunities) Canadian Welfare lifestyle is a dream come true. That is why, when you're talking about "Immigrants", you're both correct :) But you mean Landed and other side means Refugees.

You are absolutely right, and thank you for pointing out that we both put all the categories in the same basket.

In any case, I'd like to point out that the refugee category is the smallest of all the immigration categories. In 2010, there

All the figures are here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2010/permanent/01.asp

Note to say that the refugee system is perfect, but just to put things into perspective. Most immigrants to Canada are economic migrants, and bring with them wealth and skills. And yes, they pay taxes :razz:

[epiczz]

Well technically every one of our jobs can be replaced by someone else in the world since there are so many talented people in developing nations. Do you really think you're so good that someone from India (everyone speaks English there) or China can't replace you?

Nope, never said I can't be replaced.
If my company can find someone who work for less and have the same or better output, surely they would do so. Although other factors also come into play in work environment such as does that person personality fits your team, would having that person in your team increase or decrease other team members' happiness / morale / productivity.

And at the end of the day, I am yet to be replaced. The day that I am, means I need to make myself better. I won't cry like a baby and blame someone else, I would simply work to make myself better.

[NorthYorker]

Note to say that the refugee system is perfectMy understanding is, we can't use economic categories to assess refugee program. It's official purpose is not to provide Canada with best available workforce but to provide protection to
people in or outside Canada who fear returning to their home country. Any economic benefit is a pure coincidence. So we can discuss general merits of this program to no end, just don't mix economy here, refugees officially aren't about economy.

[Aznsilvrboy]

Actually there's no reason why we can't reap the benefits without the costs. If truly want globalization then the Canadian minimum wage will have to go down to $1/hour.

That's what you would like, but that's not what's happening. If you want to take advantage of globalization and bring in skilled workers from all over the world, you must be willing to accept that the might be willing to work for a lower wage.

[Troodon]

That's what you would like, but that's not what's happening. If you want to take advantage of globalization and bring in skilled workers from all over the world, you must be willing to accept that the might be willing to work for a lower wage.

Okay fine. 20K for entry level professional jobs. 40K for doctors. Happy? I'm sure a lot of immigrants would work for those wages.

[Kohanz]

Well, if you're considering what's good for Canadians then obviously having a Canadian take your job is different from giving it to an immigrant (who was hitherto not a Canadian).

So if that immigrant goes on to become a Canadian citizen (and the large majority do), does that make it alright, or are they less Canadian because they go their citizenship later in life?!

Immigrants are damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they are successful, they are taking people's jobs, if they are not successful, they are a drain on our social system. In the end, they are just a convenient scapegoat for people's woes.

[Troodon]

So if that immigrant goes on to become a Canadian citizen (and the large majority do), does that make it alright, or are they less Canadian because they go their citizenship later in life?!

Immigrants are damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they are successful, they are taking people's jobs, if they are not successful, they are a drain on our social system. In the end, they are just a convenient scapegoat for people's woes.

Well, they can just not come here. If you're devising a plan to increase the current utility of Canadians then you can't include future immigrants. Therefore, if immigrants take jobs from Canadians then that's going to decrease the utility of Canadians regardless of how much the immigrants benefit.

[epiczz]

Well, they can just not come here. If you're devising a plan to increase the current utility of Canadians then you can't include future immigrants. Therefore, if immigrants take jobs from Canadians then that's going to decrease the utility of Canadians regardless of how much the immigrants benefit.

What do you think Canada will be without immigrants? You really, honestly, think it would be better?
You are getting close the US extremism against Mexicans, if the US boots all the illegal Mexicans, you think the US would be ok? Not saying illegals are okay, but the idea that all immigrants are bad are simply ignorant.

You sound like a perfect example of what damnos described



It's simply a difference in attitude, some that take things for granted while others that are working hard and appreciative.

[Kohanz]

Well, they can just not come here. If you're devising a plan to increase the current utility of Canadians then you can't include future immigrants. Therefore, if immigrants take jobs from Canadians then that's going to decrease the utility of Canadians regardless of how much the immigrants benefit.

Almost every Canadian is so due to immigration. It seems like an arbitrary cutoff point to say "ok, now those who came here early are being hurt by the latecomers". Thank goodness the earlier settlers of Canada didn't have those attitudes.

[hugh_da_man]

Almost every Canadian is so due to immigration. It seems like an arbitrary cutoff point to say "ok, now those who came here early are being hurt by the latecomers". Thank goodness the earlier settlers of Canada didn't have those attitudes.

Wait, so the country can't say "that's enough, we don't need anymore people" because everyone else got here by immigration at some point? Seems a little silly. When we have enough people we should close the doors or make it extremely difficult like the Americans did but until that time I think we need immigrants to sustain our population and pay taxes to support the large number of old people who will soon be putting massive strain on our services. Coming here isn't a right, it's a privilege that is mutually beneficial to Canadians and immigrants.

[Kohanz]

Wait, so the country can't say "that's enough, we don't need anymore people" because everyone else got here by immigration at some point? Seems a little silly. When we have enough people we should close the doors or make it extremely difficult like the Americans did but until that time I think we need immigrants to sustain our population and pay taxes to support the large number of old people who will soon be putting massive strain on our services. Coming here isn't a right, it's a privilege that is mutually beneficial to Canadians and immigrants.

Theoretically, sure. However, you'd have to make a thorough and compelling case that immigration is hurting rather than helping. I have yet to see that case made. Usually the immigration issue is just a distraction from other problems.

[Syne]

Theoretically, sure. However, you'd have to make a thorough and compelling case that immigration is hurting rather than helping. I have yet to see that case made. Usually the immigration issue is just a distraction from other problems.

To be fair, I haven't heard a compelling case made for either side.

I'm not going to say that immigration has a net harmful effect, but it certainly does have a dampening effect on the middle class and entry level employment. Western standards of upward mobility become drowned in the much lower standards of Eastern immigrants who are willing to accept less. Whether this is ultimately a good or bad thing, I'll leave that to future historians, but I can tell you that for people in my situation, it hurts, and is one of the major reasons why we aren't making progress over our parents' generation.

[Kohanz]

To be fair, I haven't heard a compelling case made for either side.

I'm not going to say that immigration has a net harmful effect, but it certainly does have a dampening effect on the middle class and entry level employment. Western standards of upward mobility become drowned in the much lower standards of Eastern immigrants who are willing to accept less. Whether this is ultimately a good or bad thing, I'll leave that to future historians, but I can tell you that for people in my situation, it hurts, and is one of the major reasons why we aren't making progress over our parents' generation.

Even there you are making a claim which is more opinion than fact. It is possible that our quality of life or income are not what we expected ("western standards of upward mobility"), but is that due to immigration, globalization or just generally worsening economic conditions?

[Xiaozhuli]

My understanding is, we can't use economic categories to assess refugee program. It's official purpose is not to provide Canada with best available workforce but to provide protection to Any economic benefit is a pure coincidence. So we can discuss general merits of this program to no end, just don't mix economy here, refugees officially aren't about economy.

I completely agree with you. And I still claim that most economic migrants are not interested in coming to Canada to live in welfare and just take advantage of the country in general.


So if that immigrant goes on to become a Canadian citizen (and the large majority do), does that make it alright, or are they less Canadian because they go their citizenship later in life?!

Immigrants are damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they are successful, they are taking people's jobs, if they are not successful, they are a drain on our social system. In the end, they are just a convenient scapegoat for people's woes.

Amen to that...


Well, they can just not come here. If you're devising a plan to increase the current utility of Canadians then you can't include future immigrants. Therefore, if immigrants take jobs from Canadians then that's going to decrease the utility of Canadians regardless of how much the immigrants benefit.

Okay, once again, how do immigrants take jobs from Canadians, really?

[stuntman]

OP: try not to fret over this too much. Yes it is going to be a bit of a hassle because now there is something in the system that is broken and only you can drive its fix.

As for you tenant, wait for some kind of explanation from the government, then get one from them. It is strange why they would be asking for your information.

[Syne]

Even there you are making a claim which is more opinion than fact. It is possible that our quality of life or income are not what we expected ("western standards of upward mobility"), but is that due to immigration, globalization or just generally worsening economic conditions?

Oh, for sure. I didn't mean to make it sound like immigration was the only culprit. It is more than likely all of the above.

[a-tree]

To be fair, I haven't heard a compelling case made for either side.

I'm not going to say that immigration has a net harmful effect, but it certainly does have a dampening effect on the middle class and entry level employment. Western standards of upward mobility become drowned in the much lower standards of Eastern immigrants who are willing to accept less. Whether this is ultimately a good or bad thing, I'll leave that to future historians, but I can tell you that for people in my situation, it hurts, and is one of the major reasons why we aren't making progress over our parents' generation.

Immigration has been part of North American history since the very beginning. There were immigrants when your parents' generation was your age. There were immigrants when your grandparents' generation was your age. Immigrants come here because the country needs them here. If immigrants as a whole were costing Canadians on a net basis, we wouldn't be accepting them. It's not immigrants the reason you think you're making less. It's because you aren't working hard enough.

Why do you assume that immigrants are willing to take lesser pay? Immigrants are subject to the same level of prices as everyone else. They have the same needs as everyone else. What makes you think that they're willing to take less? They simply take less in general due to a lack of skill set.

[Syne]

a-tree, could you just not be in this thread?

Just this one thread?

[damnos]

I'm not going to say that immigration has a net harmful effect, but it certainly does have a dampening effect on the middle class and entry level employment. Western standards of upward mobility become drowned in the much lower standards of Eastern immigrants who are willing to accept less.

On the other hand, it's probably just the "western standards" is actually an attitude of taking things for granted rather than working hard to keep the good things that we have.
Rather than being appreciative of the things you get in Canada and work hard to be productive member of society to keep it, some people simply take advantage of the welfare, etc because they feel it's their "right" and they supposed to be able to have it without contributing anything to it.


There will always be exception cases in generalization and there's always some that don't fit in the category.
However, in general, often you find that Canadian-born (or at least people who have been Canadian-born for generations as opposed to 1st, 2nd or even 3rd generation) are their attitude toward what they need to do to get what they have.

Often found you'll see is section of people who feel it's their right to get certain things while on the other hands you'll see another section of people who willingly work hard and appreciate of the things that they have by living in Canada, even the simplest thing they would appreciate to have as opposed to people who take things for granted and feels it's their right, often without wanting to do work to have it.

If you see those 2 groups of people, which one do you think immigrants (new immigrants, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc generations) would fall into and which one would people who have been Canadians for generations more likely to fall into? (again of course this doesn't apply to everyone)

For example, just came across this article today: Why Immigrants Make Better Entrepreneurs (http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2012/05/09/why-immigrants/). While the article specifically talk about entrepreneurs, I think in general it describes the different attitude immigrants have, mainly due to the fact that they realized how hard life is back home and/or how they are a lot more appreciate for things that they have in Canada (or US in the case of the article)

It's not about race to the bottom, it's simply about not taking things for granted and willing to start from the bottom and work hard toward what you want to get rather than expecting it to be handed to you in a silver platter.


Immigrants like Gheorghe don’t dawdle in their pursuit of better opportunities. They start at any available entry point in the job market, and then rapidly advance toward very ambitious personal goals. They keep pushing ahead, even if it means hauling plywood on a construction site or making small talk with whatever big shots they might be driving around in a borrowed limo.

How many Canadian-born do you think would be willing to open a store 24 hour, 365 days a year, barely any rest or vacation? Compared that to immigrants who are likely to be more willing to do so. Those immigrants also are likely to actually have wealth that they don't spend, they live in a modest house, don't go out drinking and partying ... compared to the average Canadian who enjoys partying out, spending money on booze, sure you can claim that you enjoy life while immigrants dont. But on the flip side, those immigrants easily be the same people who are able to put their kids through university without loans and hence get their kids a head start financially, compared to people who had to take loans to go through university. On top of that, more often than not I've seen people who are already on OSAP but they still go to party every weekend rather than save up any money from their part time job to make sure they graduate with little to no debt.

It's simply a difference in attitude, some that take things for granted while others that are working hard and appreciative.

What about you Syne, economically - are you a net burden or a net benefit to the country?

[a-tree]

a-tree, could you just not be in this thread?

Just this one thread?

Why so upset?

[NorthYorker]

I still claim that most economic migrants are not interested in coming to Canada to live in welfare and just take advantage of the country in general. Agree.
Okay, once again, how do immigrants take jobs from Canadians, really?OK, I'm going to play a devil's advocate. Canadian IT is running on immigrant manpower, period. Immigrants make absolute friggin majority of rank-and-file and consultant IT workforce in every major Canadian IT centre, including relatively "less immigrant" areas like Tri-City or Winnipeg. Canadian educational system just does not produce enough manpower with adequate skills. So, without immigrants, workforce competition in this sector would be non-existent and rates would go through the roof, theoretically benefiting Canadian workforce. However (and I'm switching "advocate" mode off at this moment), this will likely just result in market being smaller and more projects being sent to multinational IT services companies, so net effect would be way smaller than it appears to be at first glance.

[alanbrenton]

Okay fine. 20K for entry level professional jobs. 40K for doctors. Happy? I'm sure a lot of immigrants would work for those wages.

Hey, maybe that is what should be done since it's the healthcare cost that is spiraling out of control and prone to abuse/fraud. Except for life-saving procedures, there doesn't seem to be a lot of value add seeing a GP and many medical practitioners. Even in the US, they're starting to use crowd-sourcing to get medical professionals to remotely diagnose patients' ailments. I'm thinking about this -- I go see a doctor because I have an allergy. I am told to avoid eating all known food sources that may trigger allergies. This information is free on the web, I guess it's ascertaining the credibility of the source of the information that is critical. Eventually I start introducing some of those food culprits back into my diet to find out what I was allergic too. It seems that I'm actually 90% responsible for figuring out the problem. A lot of ailments can be resolved by the patients themselves so professionals can actually look after other more urgent cases.

Many issues can be resolved quickly and cheaply but because healthcare is "free" but costs the government a lot, people would rather spend time booking an appointment than trying to keep a more healthy lifestyle. We've become so dependent on practitioners when sometimes we already know how to deal with the issues. For viruses, doctors prescribe antibacterial medication. That is not good practice as viruses and bacteria operate differently and what's happening is increasing the number of virus or bacterial strains that are immune to many medication. Just gargle with salt water a few times a day, drink plenty of liquid, and stop spreading the germs would have been ample for many people.

Not sure why many immigrants who practiced medicine in their homeland are barred for practicing here. CIC should not have opened the doors to overseas doctors since they can't even get the license to practice medicine here.

Maybe a two-tier system should have been introduced since unless it's life threatening or a severe condition, most overseas doctors would have been able to diagnose equally well. I've heard that computers have been making pharmacists lives so much simpler too since they're given a step by step approach to concocting the prescriptions. I'm willing to go to the cheaper docs for non-life threatening issues and of course would go to the higher paid "Canadian" doctors for life-threatening issues.

I'm happy if many products and services will go down in pricing because immigrants are wiling to accept a lower rate. This will likely affect my pay eventually but then why do we want to buy stuff for cheap (pushing wages outside the country down for imports) but would like to have the same salaries as before? Professional jobs are already being outsourced to India to those people okay with $20k with their MBA and CFA charters.

The only jobs that are safe are jobs that require physical presence here in Canada. Nursing, Doctor, Public Service, and some regulatory jobs are relatively safe and well-paying because the government has full taxing authority and can deem fit any kind of expenditures. Everyone else's job can be outsourced if it can be digitized.

The government should get rid of the unions at all levels and kick the lazy a$$es out. Immigration policies should be more strict and I agree, audit of new immigrants should be conducted so that abuses by the fraudulents can lead to revocation of citizenship and not give the majority of immigrants a bad name. There shouldn't be a lot of grounds for refugee stay for humanitarian reasons and I did see an editorial this week that spoke to deportation if the refugee's native country become peaceful enough for the refugee to pay it a visit. The government should just get smarter about all the loopholes.

One way to spur job growth is to get more manufacturing jobs that produces products/services exported overseas. I don't think we can sustain wage growth if we are relying entire on Canadian domestic consumption as many of these things are imported from overseas. We are exporting very low value added products like crude oil (at a discount), lumber, and a few other commodities. Low-value add means less jobs for the locals.

Read an article today and yes, with capital-intensive applications, we can probably compete with developing countries, if labor cost is but a small fraction of the cost.

Technology spurring a new manufacturing revolution
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/neil-reynolds/technology-spurring-a-new-manufacturing-revolution/article2426932/

[Rainne]

People just don't like immigrants because they're willing to work harder and longer for less pay. In fact, being worked like a dog for minimum entry level wage is probably better than what they experience in their home countries.

They also bring their culture/lifestyle over and refuse to assimilate into the Canadian way of life.

[a-tree]

People just don't like immigrants because they're willing to work harder and longer for less pay. In fact, being worked like a dog for minimum entry level wage is probably better than what they experience in their home countries.

They also bring their culture/lifestyle over and refuse to assimilate into the Canadian way of life.

It's not about them willing to work longer and harder for less pay. They have to work longer and harder for less pay due to lack of opportunities available to them and the fact that they have similar expenditure needs as everyone else.

What's a Canadian way of life? Why should they assimilate themselves into a different culture when they have their own? Did your grandparents assimilate themselves into the culture of the Natives?

[Xiaozhuli]

Agree.OK, I'm going to play a devil's advocate. Canadian IT is running on immigrant manpower, period. Immigrants make absolute friggin majority of rank-and-file and consultant IT workforce in every major Canadian IT centre, including relatively "less immigrant" areas like Tri-City or Winnipeg. Canadian educational system just does not produce enough manpower with adequate skills. So, without immigrants, workforce competition in this sector would be non-existent and rates would go through the roof, theoretically benefiting Canadian workforce. However (and I'm switching "advocate" mode off at this moment), this will likely just result in market being smaller and more projects being sent to multinational IT services companies, so net effect would be way smaller than it appears to be at first glance.

Thank you, that's a great example actually. I don't have much to add other than that's the reality of the job market... with or without immigrants.


People just don't like immigrants because they're willing to work harder and longer for less pay. In fact, being worked like a dog for minimum entry level wage is probably better than what they experience in their home countries.

They also bring their culture/lifestyle over and refuse to assimilate into the Canadian way of life.

How can you claim that immigrants refuse to assimilate into the Canadian way of life? How can you generalize like this?

As for bringing their culture over... food-wise, I'd say "thank God" :cheesygri

[flashy_mcflash]

What's a Canadian way of life? Why should they assimilate themselves into a different culture when they have their own? Did your grandparents assimilate themselves into the culture of the Natives?

x2. I hear this bandied about so much, but what exactly do you people want from immigrants? For them to throw on a Canucks jersey and forego their usually-superior beers for Labatt Blue?

[NorthYorker]

Did your grandparents assimilate themselves into the culture of the Natives?In a sense. Both Quebec's original French settlers and forefathers of Imperial Loyalists (who settled Ontario) learned a lot from natives as far as adaptation to local conditions is concerned. Culture of Maize farming, for example. Or ways to dress for a weather (this is especially visible for French, Quebec's winter clothing owes much more to Aboriginals than to La Belle France). So yes, they had been adopting bits and pieces of "local culture" in order to increase their chances to prosper and creating synthesis of old and new customs. Now, adaptation to "local culture" means knowing more about local expectations for an employee, but the gist remains the same.

[Kohanz]

In a sense. Both Quebec's original French settlers and forefathers of Imperial Loyalists (who settled Ontario) learned a lot from natives as far as adaptation to local conditions is concerned. Culture of Maize farming, for example. Or ways to dress for a weather (this is especially visible for French, Quebec's winter clothing owes much more to Aboriginals than to La Belle France). So yes, they had been adopting bits and pieces of "local culture" in order to increase their chances to prosper and creating synthesis of old and new customs. Now, adaptation to "local culture" means knowing more about local expectations for an employee, but the gist remains the same.

You can't be serious. Immigration obliterated Native Canadian culture. If those "bits and pieces" are good enough to be called assimilation, then I would say that all Canadian immigrants today, even the ones that live in homogenous communities, are "assimilating" quite nicely.

[alanbrenton]

x2. I hear this bandied about so much, but what exactly do you people want from immigrants? For them to throw on a Canucks jersey and forego their usually-superior beers for Labatt Blue?

Would love to know what assimilate means too.

Language
Is it speaking in English or French all the time even when one's native tongue is different? It's not the immigrants' fault that many 2nd (and beyond) generation immigrants cannot speak their own native language. Blame their forebears or themselves for not learning them. They get pissed off when people speak in a language (I meant in public and not in a corporate environment) they can't understand but don't blame themselves for not being bi or tri-lingual. Seriously, how hard is it to pass down a language? So long as the immigrants don't speak too loudly, I'm fine with that. Respect should be what we should have for each other. I agree immigrants should learn one of the two official languages and be able to communicate if they wanted services rendered to them but they shouldn't be forced to speak English/French with their family and friends.

Past Times
Beer, hockey, extravagantly nightlife and dining, pets, Poutine (great by the way but fattening)
Many locals care more about the inhumane treatment of dogs and cats in the pounds than their neighbors' or colleagues' well-being.

Soft Skills
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2009/01/26/top-10-soft-skills-for-job-hunters/
Besides traits #1, 5 and 8, all the rest can easily be had for those who just keep talking their way up the corporate ladder (smooching, brown-nosing, manipulation). How can one not have a positive attitude, time management skills, action as a team player, self-confidence, flexibility/adaptability and working well under pressure when real work is passed to others but these folks take most of the credit from their peers? I'd rather have genuine concern for people around me than faking it just to get ahead of other people. In North America, soft skills is almost tantamount to manipulation or being two-faced. Walk the talk please. Woe to Canada if we become a nation consisting of individuals who only have soft skills to brag about.

1. Strong Work Ethic
2. Positive Attitude
3. Good Communication Skills
4. Time Management Abilities
5. Problem-Solving Skills
6. Acting as a Team Player
7. Self-Confidence
8. Ability to Accept and Learn From Criticism
9. Flexibility/Adaptability
10. Working Well Under Pressure


People just don't like immigrants because they're willing to work harder and longer for less pay. In fact, being worked like a dog for minimum entry level wage is probably better than what they experience in their home countries.

They also bring their culture/lifestyle over and refuse to assimilate into the Canadian way of life.

Sounds like the new immigrants don't have a sense of entitlement and will take the best job available to them while they build more experience and provide for their families. Oops, I forgot that because we paid top dollars at our universities, we should be entitled to get that dream job!

I know there are abusers of the system but I agree with Xiaozhuli that most immigrants didn't come here to feed off welfare. They want a better life and if they can commit and provide more to their would-be employers, it would be a no-brainer to select some of these over the local pool. Unless the jobs are highly technical in nature, there is still a glass ceiling over most immigrants anyway because of lack of soft skills, ahem.

So far, I haven't see very successful people on RFD complaining about immigrants. What threat would an immigrant be to a high profile investment banker or property magnate? In fact, they might hire them as associates (fetching tea and breakfast) or financial analysts. :)

[alanbrenton]

I was just going through some of the comments and noticed most of the gripes center around job competition as well as new immigrants not following Canadian customs. Most against immigration also didn't put in a lot of comments and many of those who did put comments are derogatory in nature, for one, "Fekin immigrants should be shipped back where they came from"... :) Sounds like many are hill billies while those who put in support (or at least with restrictions) had better arguments.

Would really love to know what is there to follow besides speaking English, respecting one's neighbors and colleagues, enjoying the sunshine and fresh air, and obeying the rule of law. Any more requirements and it will feel like a communist country. I would love to teach new immigrants how they can be less loathed by some of the 2nd/3rd/4th... generation Canadians.

It's a only a small portion of the immigrant population the chooses to veil their women. Maybe Canada should enforce some sort of dress code that can be grounds for deportation. If the school has a dress code and the students needs to be veiled, shouldn't the school be able to enforce it's policy, why should everyone have the right to get around rules because they came from a different background/religion? After all many would-be immigrants would be willing to sign anything just to get a lease on a new life. Bar those who will dress up in a certain way that's detestable for the regular North American (not talking about the birthday suit) or will practice their customs that the public detest from coming in the first place. These detested behaviors could possibly be traced to the source country where applications accepted should be kept at the bare minimum. It's much easier to reject these applications that have them fly back home if they don't want to follow rules and regulations. As for those who commit a crime, why not deport these people back to where they came from? For those feeding off our welfare system without any efforts to seek employment, I guess these can be deported too. Let's not be too humanitarian if the system's being abused.

Government should crack done and the police should help with the clean up since it's a waste of time just handing speeding tickets to those going over the thresholds by a few km/h. Better yet, overhaul the immigration system and only bring those who are able to make positive contributions to the economy. There are loopholes that allow less qualified people to reach our shores first compared to those more qualified ones.

Don't the public have any inputs to what would be required of new immigrants? Bureaucrats don't know a lot about many things. Bringing in foreign doctors who will never be able to practice is a waste of everyone's time (including the immigrants' of course).

I agree that we should train Canadians first and foremost and whichever jobs are in demand in the foreseeable years, should be the ones promoted to incoming university/college/trade school students. Increase funding here and decrease funding in some areas where there may be no future for graduates. Fire the worthless tenured professors who can't educate the students properly. Let's bring back the values such as hard work and meritocracy and inculcate in our youth that there is seldom a thing as easy money.

[a-tree]

In a sense. Both Quebec's original French settlers and forefathers of Imperial Loyalists (who settled Ontario) learned a lot from natives as far as adaptation to local conditions is concerned. Culture of Maize farming, for example. Or ways to dress for a weather (this is especially visible for French, Quebec's winter clothing owes much more to Aboriginals than to La Belle France). So yes, they had been adopting bits and pieces of "local culture" in order to increase their chances to prosper and creating synthesis of old and new customs. Now, adaptation to "local culture" means knowing more about local expectations for an employee, but the gist remains the same.

Proof?

[alanbrenton]

Proof?

He will say researchers said so or google the answer yourself. :)

[a-tree]

He will say researchers said so or google the answer yourself. :)

He seems to be confused with adopting that which is expedient, and assimilation. But it's something I've come to expect from this kid. So it's ok.

[uber_shnitz]

There's also this thing IIRC that Canada as a whole isn't that great with reproducing. Our average children per family isn't very high and keeps dropping decade after decade so our population isn't capable of sustaining itself. That was what I was told was a major argument for letting in many immigrants back when I was in grade school. Idk if it's true anymore, but I'd wager not many non-immigrant families have above 2 kids anymore nowadays (not even sure they have 1).