Big TDSB Cuts Coming

[DearSummer]

TDSB cuts: Report recommends staff cuts, closing cafeterias, some schools on weekends
http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/articlePrint/1178188


The Toronto District School Board will consider closing some school cafeterias, raising permit fees and hiking the cost of non-credit night school courses in a bid to wipe out a $58 million deficit, suggests a report to be released Monday afternoon.

The staff report also recommends trustees cut special education administration and clerical staff, ban trustees from travelling out of the country on business and close some schools on the weekends during vacation, all to balance the budget as required by Ontario law.

Trustees have several weeks to consult the public on the proposed cuts before a key budget vote June 13.

TDSB trustees already voted to cut 200 high school teaching jobs due to falling high school enrolment, cut 134 secretarial jobs and scrap some 430 education assistant jobs, but offer them training to become early childhood educators for full-day kindergarten.

However, even these cuts, plus a number of reductions to hall monitors and janitors, still leave the board facing a $58 million shortfall.

Other proposed staff cuts include reductions to head office staff and possible cuts to professional service staff such as psychologists, a move bound to draw outrage given the rising concerns over students' mental health.

This is the fallout from poor compensation practices by the Ontario government. For every dollar a teacher is paid, that is one less dollar to spend elsehwere in education. You can only cut services so thin. The compensation is the biggest piece of the pie and needs to be cut significantly if we are going to have a sustainable and quality education system in the future.

[45ED]

Ah yes, another thread topic of this nature for you to whet your appetite.

[flashy_mcflash]

http://i.imgur.com/wWyLP.jpg

[ever1221]

I'd like to cancel the funds on all catholic schools all together. It is not fair to have catholic schools as best schools compared to others just because they get more funding. Either cut the funds and make it same as other schools, or close all catholic schools.

[CSK'sMom]

I'd like to cancel the funds on all catholic schools all together. It is not fair to have catholic schools as best schools compared to others just because they get more funding. Either cut the funds and make it same as other schools, or close all catholic schools.

Wrong, Catholic schools do not get more funding than public schools! They both get funding through the exact same formula. :facepalm: Now I'll add that Catholic School Boards have always historically been much more fiscally responsible due to the funding formula years past. My own Catholic board went into amalgamation with a reserve when boards were amalgamated and has continued to make the hard decisions with school closings, services, contracts, etc.

This is a TDSB problem as they have continually refused to make the hard decisions and skirt the deficit law on the books...

[ever1221]

Wrong, Catholic schools do not get more funding than public schools! They both get funding through the exact same formula. :facepalm: Now I'll add that Catholic School Boards have always historically been much more fiscally responsible due to the funding formula years past. My own Catholic board went into amalgamation with a reserve when boards were amalgamated and has continued to make the hard decisions with school closings, services, contracts, etc.

This is a TDSB problem as they have continually refused to make the hard decisions and skirt the deficit law on the books...

I dare you to show me one catholic school in all of Ontario that has lower standards than any other non-catholic school...in the city I live in, the best/cleanest, most well maintained schools are ONLY the Catholic schools...care to explain why?

[MrKap]

Who is parent central? Sort of looks like the Toronto Star was hacked.

http://www.parentcentral.ca/

Okay, maybe it is a good idea?

Who eats cafeteria food anyways?

What they should do is stop zoning high schools so they are in the middle of residential areas. Who wants kids tearing up front lawns, when they could just as easily be hanging out in commercial plazas with arcades, restaurants, and convenience stores?

[kenchau66]

I'd like to cancel the funds on all catholic schools all together. It is not fair to have catholic schools as best schools compared to others just because they get more funding. Either cut the funds and make it same as other schools, or close all catholic schools.

catholic school funding is protected under s. 93(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982.

I would get into the history of it but it's long.

[MrKap]

catholic school funding is protected under s. 93(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982.

I would get into the history of it but it's long.

It's a choice is it not? People can choose which system they fund.

In any event. Catholic schools are just about the only schools that have any source of revenue, correct? I mean they make their students buy uniforms, they make students pay for class trips, ect...

They don't do that in Public Schools, do they? It is more like a question, because I remember not paying for class trips in public school, but I remember paying for class trips in catholic school.


Mind you, I also remember sports equipment being bar none superior in catholic schools when compared to some public schools. I suspect there are reasons for these things, but I am unsure.

[CSK'sMom]

I dare you to show me one catholic school in all of Ontario that has lower standards than any other non-catholic school...in the city I live in, the best/cleanest, most well maintained schools are ONLY the Catholic schools...care to explain why?

Re-read what I posted. It's because Catholic School Boards have historically been far more fiscally responsible and before the standardized curriculum had far higher standards when it came to curriculum. Before full funding, Catholic boards only received gov't education dollars for up to grade 8. Highschools had to be funded through tuitions which lead to fiscal responsibility as there was no running to the gov't for more dollars (unlike the TDSB yr after yr).

[CSK'sMom]

It's a choice is it not? People can choose which system they fund.

In any event. Catholic schools are just about the only schools that have any source of revenue, correct? I mean they make their students buy uniforms, they make students pay for class trips, ect...

They don't do that in Public Schools, do they? It is more like a question, because I remember not paying for class trips in public school, but I remember paying for class trips in catholic school.


Mind you, I also remember sports equipment being bar none superior in catholic schools when compared to some public schools. I suspect there are reasons for these things, but I am unsure.

No to the revenue. School boards make nothing on uniforms in either board, they are barred from it. It's all done through uniform suppliers. These days, all students pay for class trips and sports. This is where Parent Councils come into play with fundraising. The most affluent areas can raise literally hundreds of thousands of "extra" dollars per year but it's worth saying the new regulations coming into force will severely limit what those dollars can be spent on now. No more textbooks, etc that boards already recieve funding for...

[MrKap]

Well, this is sort of related, anyways... someone is taking the provincial government board to court...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/13/ontario-woman-launches-legal-challenge-to-catholic-schools-taxpayer-funding/


OTTAWA — A Toronto woman has filed suit against the Ontario government in a bid to turn back the clock on funding for Catholic schools to 1867, when the right to a separate system was enshrined in law.

Reva Landau, a retired business systems analyst, concedes in her application that the Constitution protects Catholic school funding in Ontario.

But Landau argues that giving Catholic schools more money than is strictly required by law offends the Charter of Rights and Freedoms’ equality provisions.


“In an ideal world, I’d like to see one public school system,” said Landau, who holds a law degree from the University of Toronto.


How much do you want to bet their law degree was heavily subsidized by the same government?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qth2ZnuUC9Y

(It doesn't really make any sense until about 10:20)


If it helps, the quality of education in a Catholic School compared to a the quality of education in a Public School is not comparable. Public School in my opinion, was way better.


As for cafeteria food, if they can't stay in business like any other food serving establishment, why should they be funded? They've only got access to a whole student body which is hungry and ready to buy food. How hard can it get?

[JAC]

How much does anyone want to bet that DearSummer is a former teacher who lost his job for groping a student?

[MrKap]

How much does anyone want to bet that DearSummer is a former teacher who lost his job for groping a student?

They are probably a disgruntled taxpayer who is blaming their entire miserable life's failure on the government.

Most likely some sort of entrepreneurial capitalist, who thinks the government isn't doing enough for them specifically.

[CSK'sMom]

As for cafeteria food, if they can't stay in business like any other food serving establishment, why should they be funded? They've only got access to a whole student body which is hungry and ready to buy food. How hard can it get?

The cafeteria closing recommendation baffles me... Anyone know for sure but I can only assume that TDSB actually runs their own school cafeterias. I didn't think there were any boards left running their own cafeterias and all had contracted out cafeterias to Aramark and others. All the boards down here certainly have quite some time ago. Aramark and the like pay the boards for the rights to the cafeterias, just like in the colleges and uni's....

[MrKap]

The cafeteria closing recommendation baffles me... Anyone know for sure but I can only assume that TDSB actually runs their own school cafeterias. I didn't think there were any boards left running their own cafeterias and all had contracted out cafeterias to Aramark and others. All the boards down here certainly have quite some time ago. Aramark and the like pay the boards for the rights to the cafeterias, just like in the colleges and uni's....

Like I said, who is "parent central"?

You know what it is... it's "the Star"... That's the problem.

Next thing you know they will want to keep soda and candy bar vending machines off school property because students are helpless victims of the commercial world which surrounds them.

The Star = Communist Propaganda Machine




But seriously, I've seen some of the schools in Toronto. They are fully surrounded by 10 feet+ fence and resemble a prison more than anything else. There is at least one school I can think of which is on the same block as a strip club.

If someone can't pay the "rights", or someone can't pay "rent" to serve food in a cafeteria, what is wrong with everybody?

[Abel4Life]

Where we can get money to fund education:

1. Cut the pension match for all public sector employees to a more reasonable amount similar to that of the private sector.

2. Increase eligibility requirements for immigrants to be able to get OHIP and OAS etc.

[ever1221]

catholic school funding is protected under s. 93(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982.

I would get into the history of it but it's long.

already knew that...constitution needs massive changes/updates, and this is one of them.

[CSK'sMom]

Mr Kap, why are you so hung up on the OP's original link to a Parent Central link to the story? Would it make you feel better of I posted Global's or CBC's or any other network. This story is mainstream media....

BTW, you are obviously pretty far removed from the education loop. "Junk food" like candy bars and pop were removed from the schools quite some time ago. ;)

[MrKap]

I'm just agreeing with you on the strange report that school cafeterias would be shut down.

You yourself said they pay rent or they pay for the privilege to sell their wares.

How can a cafeteria not turn a profit when they have such exclusive access to a whole hungry student body.

What are they serving? Fish?


They should let me in there, I would just order those giant sized pizzas in bulk and resell them per slice. Who would walk halfway across town to get a slice of pizza when they could get exactly the same with less hassle.


Otherwise they can start demanding that people buy uniforms from specific/exclusive dealerships, like this...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Nazi_hj_brassad_swimtrunks.JPG/800px-Nazi_hj_brassad_swimtrunks.JPG

In other words, if parents don't like the food it takes to make people spend their money, they should brown bag it.

[CSK'sMom]

I'm just agreeing with you on the strange report that school cafeterias would be shut down.

You yourself said they pay rent or they pay for the privilege to sell their wares.

How can a cafeteria not turn a profit when they have such exclusive access to a whole hungry student body.

What are they serving? Fish?


They should let me in there, I would just order those giant sized pizzas in bulk and resell them per slice. Who would walk halfway across town to get a slice of pizza when they could get exactly the same with less hassle.


In other words, if parents don't like the food it takes to make people spend their money, they should brown bag it.

Couldn't do that Mr Kap (the pizza thing) due to the junk food ban. Menus in school cafeterias had to be revamped with the junk food ban. Cafeterias now offer many, many more "healthier" options like salads, pitas, etc. if the kids want junk food they have to find it elsewhere as they won't find in in the schools now. But with that said, if the companies getting the contracts are truely interested in making money (and who isn't?) they need to play within the rules of the junk food ban yet still come up with stuff the kids want to eat and spend their money on...

[MrKap]

Couldn't do that Mr Kap (the pizza thing) due to the junk food ban. Menus in school cafeterias had to be revamped with the junk food ban. Cafeterias now offer many, many more "healthier" options like salads, pitas, etc. if the kids want junk food they have to find it elsewhere as they won't find in in the schools now. But with that said, if the companies getting the contracts are truely interested in making money (and who isn't?) they need to play within the rules of the junk food ban yet still come up with stuff the kids want to eat and spend their money on...

Strange because I remember there being pizza pizzas and other shops, like starbucks and such in the college I went to.

How can they be successful, yet a school cafeteria can't be?

They serve healthy things in some of those restaurants, like Mr.Sub, or MacDonalds salads.



junk food ban

They should ban it everywhere then, and make sure that parents who feed their children these things for dinner, lose the privilege of raising children and the state can take control of them.

[RolandCouch]

DearSummer, serious question with a simple answer: What do you think a reasonable salary is for a teacher at the top end of the pay grid?

[DearSummer]

DearSummer, serious question with a simple answer: What do you think a reasonable salary is for a teacher at the top end of the pay grid?

I think the best educators should be paid six figures. However, only a small percentage of teachers would fit into that category. Many teachers should be fired. Others should make far less than they do. Seniority should not factor into pay or job security. Pensions should be switched to a defined-contribution plan with a smaller matching percentage.

It's not about a specific dollar value. It's about getting rid of the typical union attitude which doesn't properly align the interests of the stakeholders and creates a worse education system for our youth.

[renoldman]

Most likely some sort of entrepreneurial capitalist, who thinks the government isn't doing enough for them specifically.

Some people should know that Canada actually helps "entrepreneurs" with families.

I know of several couples with 2 or 3 kids that live on these government subsidies.

It is a cycle.

First they go to College or University (to get government money for education and family) and then afterwards they work as entrepreneurs (their business is collecting money from the government).

All the while their children learn that they can depend on the government to support them.

If you were one of these people would you want your livelihood (essentially sitting at home watching tv or the internet) taken away from you?

Of course not, everyone in the government is overpaid, but not you the person who is really trying hard to be an entrepreneur. In fact the government should pay you triple if they actually want you to leave the house. 10 times more if they actually want you to try to run a business.

If you ever wonder why housing prices are skyrocketing, recognize that their are people who actually pay for their house strictly through government subsidies. Once you realize that, the hard asset of a house seems to be worth very little in Canada.

[RolandCouch]

I think the best educators should be paid six figures. However, only a small percentage of teachers would fit into that category. Many teachers should be fired. Others should make far less than they do. Seniority should not factor into pay or job security. Pensions should be switched to a defined-contribution plan with a smaller matching percentage.

It's not about a specific dollar value. It's about getting rid of the typical union attitude which doesn't properly align the interests of the stakeholders and creates a worse education system for our youth.

Ok but with that logic, the incredibly large surplus of qualified candidates for teaching positions would surely bring the best and brightest (if unions had no part in it) and then we would be paying six figures to teachers across the board. How would this remedy the 'problem'?

Also, how do you figure many teachers should be fired/make less than they do? Have you worked in a school? What qualifies you to determine this?

[renoldman]

I should note that some of the people who do go on the programs mentioned in my previous post do eventually provide some economic benefit for the country by providing a service or a good.

But there are some that don't.

And when this person is trying for 10 years, it just seems like it might not be something they can do.

[MrKap]

If you ever wonder why housing prices are skyrocketing, recognize that their are people who actually pay for their house strictly through government subsidies. Once you realize that, the hard asset of a house seems to be worth very little in Canada.

You are mistaking me for someone who thinks entrepreneurs make money.

I agree... Canada is basically one giant public works system.



I should note that some of the people who do go on the programs mentioned in my previous post do eventually provide some economic benefit for the country by providing a service or a good.


Who? Ted Rogers?

[stuntman]

If you ever wonder why housing prices are skyrocketing, recognize that their are people who actually pay for their house strictly through government subsidies. Once you realize that, the hard asset of a house seems to be worth very little in Canada.

whaaaat? I would like to see the math on that and how it is escalating prices.
Bring it to the news paper they would love a story like that.

[CDNPatriot]

+ 2 Dearsummer runs away from a duplicate thread after posters take hime to task and provide evidence that his views are wrong.

Dearsummer stated that he was an importer and employed many people. He later deleted that post so that it doesn't show up on any searches.

Dearsummer doesn't make much money and is very jealous of teachers. He wants teachers to make dirt low wages so that they can all go to Walmart and buy his made in China knick knacks.

Compliant filed with RFD as he keeps posting the same teacher bashing threads over and over and it's time for a ban.


How much does anyone want to bet that DearSummer is a former teacher who lost his job for groping a student?

[CDNPatriot]

What he is really saying is that they are paid much much less than him. He is the importer of Made in China knick knacks extraordinaire.


DearSummer, serious question with a simple answer: What do you think a reasonable salary is for a teacher at the top end of the pay grid?

[DearSummer]

Ok but with that logic, the incredibly large surplus of qualified candidates for teaching positions would surely bring the best and brightest (if unions had no part in it) and then we would be paying six figures to teachers across the board. How would this remedy the 'problem'?

Performance is relative. There are some fields (i.e. medicine) where a large percentage of the people could be defined as high-performers. However, when you stack them up against the rest of the people in that field, there are still different tiers of performance. It's not about being merely "qualified" (i.e. meeting some bare minimum of standards), but about consistently delivering results in excess of your peers. This is how the private sector (mostly) works. The best people are rewarded. This motivates people to be the best. Pretty simple yet unions and the public sector refuse to compensate their people this way.


Also, how do you figure many teachers should be fired/make less than they do? Have you worked in a school? What qualifies you to determine this?

Since 2004, 27 teachers have been terminated for poor performance in Ontario (source (http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/07/08/why-it%E2%80%99s-so-hard-to-fire-bad-teachers/)). Do you really think that is how many bad teachers are out there? It is nearly impossible to fire bad teachers (let alone identify them).

Ontario teachers have the best compensation package in the world (source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/sep/14/education-spending-class-sizes-school-funding)).

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/9/14/1316010814832/OECD-001.jpg

Ontario is running a $15 billion deficit and approaching $300 billion in accumulated debt. Health care costs are at best going to continue to grow at a rate equal to GDP growth. How can we sustain our current public sector compensation packages and balance the budget? If you have some ideas, there are 13 million people who would like to know.

[DearSummer]

Some people should know that Canada actually helps "entrepreneurs" with families.

I know of several couples with 2 or 3 kids that live on these government subsidies.

It is a cycle.

First they go to College or University (to get government money for education and family) and then afterwards they work as entrepreneurs (their business is collecting money from the government).

All the while their children learn that they can depend on the government to support them.

If you were one of these people would you want your livelihood (essentially sitting at home watching tv or the internet) taken away from you?

Of course not, everyone in the government is overpaid, but not you the person who is really trying hard to be an entrepreneur. In fact the government should pay you triple if they actually want you to leave the house. 10 times more if they actually want you to try to run a business.

If you ever wonder why housing prices are skyrocketing, recognize that their are people who actually pay for their house strictly through government subsidies. Once you realize that, the hard asset of a house seems to be worth very little in Canada.

Do you know what an entrepreneur is? Explain to me exactly how the government pays me any money. I pay over 50% of my money to the government. That's correct, the government spends more of my own money than I do!

[MrKap]

The best people are rewarded.

Let me guess, you are not in sales, have a university degree, and you work for a fortune 500.

Either that or you are an olympic athlete.


It's not about being merely "qualified" (i.e. meeting some bare minimum of standards), but about consistently delivering results in excess of your peers.

*** cough *** f'g *** cough ***



I take it back, you are actually a manager of a sales team, and your turnover is through the roof and you can't figure out why.

[RolandCouch]

Performance is relative. There are some fields (i.e. medicine) where a large percentage of the people could be defined as high-performers. However, when you stack them up against the rest of the people in that field, there are still different tiers of performance. It's not about being merely "qualified" (i.e. meeting some bare minimum of standards), but about consistently delivering results in excess of your peers. This is how the private sector (mostly) works. The best people are rewarded. This motivates people to be the best. Pretty simple yet unions and the public sector refuse to compensate their people this way.



Since 2004, 27 teachers have been terminated for poor performance in Ontario (source (http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/07/08/why-it%E2%80%99s-so-hard-to-fire-bad-teachers/)). Do you really think that is how many bad teachers are out there? It is nearly impossible to fire bad teachers (let alone identify them).

Ontario teachers have the best compensation package in the world (source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/sep/14/education-spending-class-sizes-school-funding)).

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/9/14/1316010814832/OECD-001.jpg

Ontario is running a $15 billion deficit and approaching $300 billion in accumulated debt. Health care costs are at best going to continue to grow at a rate equal to GDP growth. How can we sustain our current public sector compensation packages and balance the budget? If you have some ideas, there are 13 million people who would like to know.

I asked you 4 questions and you just spit some research/jargon that did not directly address and answer any of the questions that I asked. Well done.

[RolandCouch]

Let me guess, you are not in sales, have a university degree, and you work for a fortune 500.

Either that or you are an olympic athlete.



*** cough *** f'g *** cough ***



I take it back, you are actually a manager of a sales team, and your turnover is through the roof and you can't figure out why.

Wouldn't it be nice if these 'know it alls' wanted to share what they do for a living and what qualifies them to determine the wages and benefits of others?

[MrKap]

Wouldn't it be nice if these 'know it alls' wanted to share what they do for a living and what qualifies them to determine the wages and benefits of others?

They work for government.


That's pretty funny though about the exceeding the performance of your peers, and the belief that some teachers should get 6 figures while the rest who just follow curriculum shouldn't get a dime.


Then the idea that too much money into the public system is where all the problems are, followed up with an info graphic.

[CSK'sMom]

:!: OK folks, this thread is about the cuts needed to the TDSB budget and not teacher bashing. Bring it back to topic. If the teacher bashing/bickering continues then the thread will be locked. :!:

[RolandCouch]

They work for government.


That's pretty funny though about the exceeding the performance of your peers, and the belief that some teachers should get 6 figures while the rest who just follow curriculum shouldn't get a dime.


Then the idea that too much money into the public system is where all the problems are, followed up with an info graphic.

I just think DS's ideas are nonsensical and he can't manage to put together a solid argument or answer very direct questions.

We are going to pay teachers based on performance? How is that to be evaluated? Grades? What if you start with a weaker class? What if you have more of the troublemakers/kids with lower test scores? Do we assess them all at the beginning and end of the year? What if some are good test writers and others are good presenters - and on and on and on....what he is proposing sounds great in theory but is not practical at all.

[DearSummer]

:!: OK folks, this thread is about the cuts needed to the TDSB budget and not teacher bashing. Bring it back to topic. If the teacher bashing/bickering continues then the thread will be locked. :!:

When did anybody bash teachers? How is discussing teacher salaries not a valid discussion when we're talking about the cuts needed to the TDSB budget? Teacher salaries make up the lion's share of the TDSB budget...

[DearSummer]

I just think DS's ideas are nonsensical and he can't manage to put together a solid argument or answer very direct questions.

We are going to pay teachers based on performance? How is that to be evaluated? Grades? What if you start with a weaker class? What if you have more of the troublemakers/kids with lower test scores? Do we assess them all at the beginning and end of the year? What if some are good test writers and others are good presenters - and on and on and on....what he is proposing sounds great in theory but is not practical at all.

How are people in the private sector evaluated? Is it perfect? Does it need to be to be better than a system in which the worst teachers are compensated the same as the best?

[MrKap]

I just think DS's ideas are nonsensical and he can't manage to put together a solid argument or answer very direct questions.

We are going to pay teachers based on performance? How is that to be evaluated? Grades? What if you start with a weaker class? What if you have more of the troublemakers/kids with lower test scores? Do we assess them all at the beginning and end of the year? What if some are good test writers and others are good presenters - and on and on and on....what he is proposing sounds great in theory but is not practical at all.

It doesn't work, they tried that in the states. Steve Jobs was wrong, unions are not what are causing problems (as if he actually said that anyways, how does crap like that float around in the hive mind anyways), pay per performance increases the odds of teachers cheating the system.

A celebrity teacher might be a good draw for a crowd, but typically they are not what cause students to excel. Not against the curriculum or standardized testing system.


When you pit employees against each other in a performance scenario, they sabotague each other, there is nothing honorable about waving money in front of someones hands to take.


As for cafeterias, there is nothing about a cafeteria which should prevent it from serving food and making enough money to sustain itself. Unless it is slop.

[RolandCouch]

How are people in the private sector evaluated? Is it perfect? Does it need to be to be better than a system in which the worst teachers are compensated the same as the best?

Again, proof for your baseless remarks?

[RolandCouch]

It doesn't work, they tried that in the states. Steve Jobs was wrong, unions are not what are causing problems (as if he actually said that anyways, how does crap like that float around in the hive mind anyways), pay per performance increases the odds of teachers cheating the system.

A celebrity teacher might be a good draw for a crowd, but typically they are not what cause students to excel. Not against the curriculum or standardized testing system.


When you pit employees against each other in a performance scenario, they sabotague each other, there is nothing honorable about waving money in front of someones hands to take.


As for cafeterias, there is nothing about a cafeteria which should prevent it from serving food and making enough money to sustain itself. Unless it is slop.

Agree completely.

[CSK'sMom]

When did anybody bash teachers? How is discussing teacher salaries not a valid discussion when we're talking about the cuts needed to the TDSB budget? Teacher salaries make up the lion's share of the TDSB budget...

Quite frankly DearSummer, you continue to post threads about all kinds of political type items and then turn the discussion to teachers. The article you linked in this thread clearly states the cuts already made by the TDSB, including cutting 200 hs teaching positions ;), and the proposed next round of cuts (higher permit fees, cafeterias, etc) which is the articles topic.....

[at1212b]

Trustees leaving the country for 'business'.

Highway robbery. We all know its nothing but a paid vacation. All highway robbers and bandits.

[DearSummer]

Again, proof for your baseless remarks?

Why would I need proof that teachers are not paid based on performance in Ontario? This is common knowledge. There is a salary grid based on seniority and some additional education. Where is the performance pay?

[DearSummer]

Quite frankly DearSummer, you continue to post threads about all kinds of political type items and then turn the discussion to teachers. The article you linked in this thread clearly states the cuts already made by the TDSB, including cutting 200 hs teaching positions ;), and the proposed next round of cuts (higher permit fees, cafeterias, etc) which is the articles topic.....

Quite frankly, you need to review who turned the topic to a discussion on teacher salaries...


DearSummer, serious question with a simple answer: What do you think a reasonable salary is for a teacher at the top end of the pay grid?

[CDNPatriot]

Why not respond to the evidence that posters in your other duplicate threads have made first.

UK evidence is irrelevant here. As usual your critical analysis skills are lacking again.


Performance is relative. There are some fields (i.e. medicine) where a large percentage of the people could be defined as high-performers. However, when you stack them up against the rest of the people in that field, there are still different tiers of performance. It's not about being merely "qualified" (i.e. meeting some bare minimum of standards), but about consistently delivering results in excess of your peers. This is how the private sector (mostly) works. The best people are rewarded. This motivates people to be the best. Pretty simple yet unions and the public sector refuse to compensate their people this way.



Since 2004, 27 teachers have been terminated for poor performance in Ontario (source (http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/07/08/why-it%E2%80%99s-so-hard-to-fire-bad-teachers/)). Do you really think that is how many bad teachers are out there? It is nearly impossible to fire bad teachers (let alone identify them).

Ontario teachers have the best compensation package in the world (source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/sep/14/education-spending-class-sizes-school-funding)).

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/9/14/1316010814832/OECD-001.jpg

Ontario is running a $15 billion deficit and approaching $300 billion in accumulated debt. Health care costs are at best going to continue to grow at a rate equal to GDP growth. How can we sustain our current public sector compensation packages and balance the budget? If you have some ideas, there are 13 million people who would like to know.

[CDNPatriot]

Because Ontario elected governments that did not negotiate this with collective agreements. Got it?


Why would I need proof that teachers are not paid based on performance in Ontario? This is common knowledge. There is a salary grid based on seniority and some additional education. Where is the performance pay?

[CDNPatriot]

He is an unsuccessful bitter importer of Made in China products that sits on RFD posting Milton Friedman youtube clips over and over while teachers make good money and have joyous and rewarding careers.

It just eats at him. Wait till he starts making lies about teachers. On the other thread he got owned when people showed what a liar he is. That's when he slinks away waits a few days and starts another thread.


Wouldn't it be nice if these 'know it alls' wanted to share what they do for a living and what qualifies them to determine the wages and benefits of others?

[CDNPatriot]

And you consume more than the government spends and that's why they have a deficit.

Simple economics and math here. Too advanced for you though.


Do you know what an entrepreneur is? Explain to me exactly how the government pays me any money. I pay over 50% of my money to the government. That's correct, the government spends more of my own money than I do!

[jakeer]

I dare you to show me one catholic school in all of Ontario that has lower standards than any other non-catholic school...in the city I live in, the best/cleanest, most well maintained schools are ONLY the Catholic schools...care to explain why?


It's because Catholic School Boards have historically been far more fiscally responsible and before the standardized curriculum had far higher standards when it came to curriculum. Before full funding, Catholic boards only received gov't education dollars for up to grade 8. Highschools had to be funded through tuitions which lead to fiscal responsibility as there was no running to the gov't for more dollars (unlike the TDSB yr after yr).

Absolutely. It's the same thing here in Hamilton. Our Catholic board has been WAY more fiscally responsible over the years, and willing to make hard decisions such as closing underutilized schools. As a result, virtually all the Catholic schools are relatively new and nice. The public board, on the other hand, has struggled with its budget for years and has let schools sit half-empty. As a result, this year they face the prospect of closing several schools simultaneously, rather than spreading it out and easing the pain.

It's a common but false argument that the reason why Catholic schools seem to be nicer is because they receive more funding somehow - I can only imagine it's public school parents trying to rationalize why things are so bad in their boards. All funding in Ontario is on a per-student basis, and boards cannot raise their own cash (except limited amounts through in-school fundraising, and as was mentioned, even that has been curtailed or restricted). Most people don't seem to realize that historically the Catholic schools did NOT have full funding and had to charge tuition for high school, and as a result learned to do more with less. That philosophy carried over into the current funding model as well. So when the argument comes up about school board amalgamation I always laugh a little, because while there is some duplication, it would seem that the far more efficient Catholic boards would just be absorbed into the fiscal mess that are the public boards.

[NorthYorker]

I think the best educators should be paid six figures.If you look at 2011 Sunshine list, you will discover that around 2% of teachers made it. Certainly fits definition of "best educators", but that didn't stop you from bashing them.

[gilboman]

Absolutely. It's the same thing here in Hamilton. Our Catholic board has been WAY more fiscally responsible over the years, and willing to make hard decisions such as closing underutilized schools. As a result, virtually all the Catholic schools are relatively new and nice. The public board, on the other hand, has struggled with its budget for years and has let schools sit half-empty. As a result, this year they face the prospect of closing several schools simultaneously, rather than spreading it out and easing the pain.

It's a common but false argument that the reason why Catholic schools seem to be nicer is because they receive more funding somehow - I can only imagine it's public school parents trying to rationalize why things are so bad in their boards. All funding in Ontario is on a per-student basis, and boards cannot raise their own cash (except limited amounts through in-school fundraising, and as was mentioned, even that has been curtailed or restricted). Most people don't seem to realize that historically the Catholic schools did NOT have full funding and had to charge tuition for high school, and as a result learned to do more with less. That philosophy carried over into the current funding model as well. So when the argument comes up about school board amalgamation I always laugh a little, because while there is some duplication, it would seem that the far more efficient Catholic boards would just be absorbed into the fiscal mess that are the public boards.

You are all wrong

It's not because the catholic board can make more difficult decisions. It is because catholic schools were never community schools and people don't care that they close down. There are fewer catholic schools in the first place and majority of students are bussed in. That is a fact.

So if there were fewer schools to begin with (which helps when enrollment is on the decline in utilization %) and add in that nobody cares that they close because it was never a community school.

Secondly, catholic schools do not provide special education (big $$$) to even a fraction of the public board, all the high needs students, be it disabled, esl, modified behavior etc.. are in the public system.

to close a school, an ARC needs to be conducted, people will always be against the removal of their community school, that's why it's so hard for public boards to close schools. Catholic schools are not community schools and kids are bussed in, so nobody identify catholic schools as a community institutions and majority of the students never walked or were close to the school to begin with so parents don't care if their kids are bussed to school A or B.

But best proof is look at the mess the catholic board is in with province removing trustees and instilling in their own director because the catholic board were totally irresponsible with their finances lol

how did they afford their nicer facilities? they overbuilt and went overbudget and then got caught and were dismissed.

[NorthYorker]

catholic schools were never community schools and people don't care that they close down. There are fewer catholic schools in the first place and majority of students are bussed in. Agree. In my area, public schools are running program till very late (including all the community groups using them) and Catholic schools are locked down @ 3:30 pm
catholic schools do not provide special education (big $$$) to even a fraction of the public board, all the high needs students, be it disabled, esl, modified behavior etc.. are in the public system.I would disagree about ESL, seeing cohorts of Filipino and Latin students attending Catholic schools in Toronto. However, I'm pretty sure that there're pretty few Catholic ESLs outside of GTA, where Catholic systems serves primarily Italian/Irish/Polish community, all of them being 3rd or 4th generation in Canada (and Irish aren't ESL to begin with).

[alkaseltzer01]

Taxpayers want their government to review spending, so here are the results of it.

[neutral]

Do you know what an entrepreneur is? Explain to me exactly how the government pays me any money. I pay over 50% of my money to the government. That's correct, the government spends more of my own money than I do!

It's the first time such a statement made me all warm and fuzzy inside.

[alkaseltzer01]

How is the gov taking 50% of your money? Highest tax bracket is 29%

[gilboman]

Agree. In my area, public schools are running program till very late (including all the community groups using them) and Catholic schools are locked down @ 3:30 pmI would disagree about ESL, seeing cohorts of Filipino and Latin students attending Catholic schools in Toronto. However, I'm pretty sure that there're pretty few Catholic ESLs outside of GTA, where Catholic systems serves primarily Italian/Irish/Polish community, all of them being 3rd or 4th generation in Canada (and Irish aren't ESL to begin with).

filipino speak english I thought? (yes, they have tagalog, but most if not all speak english?) ... latinos speak english a lot better than the southeast indians, and other asian countries that the public board serves I guess as well I would say.

[CSK'sMom]

You are all wrong

It's not because the catholic board can make more difficult decisions. It is because catholic schools were never community schools and people don't care that they close down. There are fewer catholic schools in the first place and majority of students are bussed in. That is a fact.

So if there were fewer schools to begin with (which helps when enrollment is on the decline in utilization %) and add in that nobody cares that they close because it was never a community school.

Secondly, catholic schools do not provide special education (big $$$) to even a fraction of the public board, all the high needs students, be it disabled, esl, modified behavior etc.. are in the public system.

to close a school, an ARC needs to be conducted, people will always be against the removal of their community school, that's why it's so hard for public boards to close schools. Catholic schools are not community schools and kids are bussed in, so nobody identify catholic schools as a community institutions and majority of the students never walked or were close to the school to begin with so parents don't care if their kids are bussed to school A or B.

But best proof is look at the mess the catholic board is in with province removing trustees and instilling in their own director because the catholic board were totally irresponsible with their finances lol

how did they afford their nicer facilities? they overbuilt and went overbudget and then got caught and were dismissed.

Funny, our schools are certainly "community" schools. Going through the phone book, looks like the split is about 50/50 here for Catholic/public schools too. We've been through 2 ARC's now and the hard decisions were indeed made to close under-enrolled schools and amalgamate schools.

Now as for your SpED comment, total rubbish and false. As someone who has weaved through the SpED system and helped many others do the same, Catholic Boards do indeed provide SpED services. Frankly, far more services are offered IME through the Catholic Boards with far less fight. SpED is funded through a per student grant BTW. ;) Again, far better managed so the end dollars get to the kids instead of bureaucrats. As for your comment about all the high needs kids in public school... total rubbish! My kids hs has the only Life Skills program in the city of all the hs's. ;) You don't get much higher need than the life Skills program. Oh, and we have an extensive ESL program too...

As for your comment about Catholic Boards overbuilding and over budget... interesting. All our new schools have come in on budget and on time. And certainly not overbuilt, in many cases we've had portables by year 2. Our hs which opened in 04 had portables year 2 and is set to get an expansion. Guess what, the plans for this school were shared by 2 Catholic Boards. Ours and one in the GTA. The architectural plans for this building have included a 3rd floor and future expansion from concept.... all to save money!

[Abel4Life]

How is the gov taking 50% of your money? Highest tax bracket is 29%

Federal + Provincial + Capital Gains and the rest of the taxes you get close to 50%. Doesn't apply to all though obviously.

[Kris81]

Sell advertising space in the schools/announcements/etc & let that fund the school. But wait, they dont' want to do that.

[DearSummer]

How is the gov taking 50% of your money? Highest tax bracket is 29%

Actually the highest marginal rate in Ontario is nearly 49% now. Then there's all the other taxes and revenue streams the government has from HST, duties, property tax, etc. It's far greater than 50%. Oh, and don't forget about corporate taxes so I'm paying tax twice on my income!

[stuntman]

Actually the highest marginal rate in Ontario is nearly 49% now. Then there's all the other taxes and revenue streams the government has from HST, duties, property tax, etc. It's far greater than 50%. Oh, and don't forget about corporate taxes so I'm paying tax twice on my income!

O come on. It is not like you are paying double the tax of other people in the same income bracket. There are other financial benefits to being incorporated.

Stop whining and do something about it. Get a better accountant or move to another country. I hear Mexico and El Salvador have lower corporation taxes and are warm all year round. You will pay lower tax in the US too. A lot of other countries might tax you more.

[stuntman]

Sell advertising space in the schools/announcements/etc & let that fund the school. But wait, they dont' want to do that.

They do. Remember the deal for vending machines?

Subjecting students to manipulative marketers is not productive for the future of society.

Marketing is NOT good.

[flashy_mcflash]

They do. Remember the deal for vending machines?

Subjecting students to manipulative marketers is not productive for the future of society.

Marketing is NOT good.

Marketing is fine, but literally using students malleable minds as currency is not good.

http://i.imgur.com/DVnLu.jpg

[Kris81]

They do. Remember the deal for vending machines?

Subjecting students to manipulative marketers is not productive for the future of society.

Marketing is NOT good.


I'm thinking more like posters around the school, or events sponsored by corporate events. Mccains, Gap, etc, etc, etc. At least they will be following manipulative marketers in school & earn some kind of benefit from it, than the ones they follow on tv

[gilboman]

Funny, our schools are certainly "community" schools. Going through the phone book, looks like the split is about 50/50 here for Catholic/public schools too. We've been through 2 ARC's now and the hard decisions were indeed made to close under-enrolled schools and amalgamate schools.

Now as for your SpED comment, total rubbish and false. As someone who has weaved through the SpED system and helped many others do the same, Catholic Boards do indeed provide SpED services. Frankly, far more services are offered IME through the Catholic Boards with far less fight. SpED is funded through a per student grant BTW. ;) Again, far better managed so the end dollars get to the kids instead of bureaucrats. As for your comment about all the high needs kids in public school... total rubbish! My kids hs has the only Life Skills program in the city of all the hs's. ;) You don't get much higher need than the life Skills program. Oh, and we have an extensive ESL program too...

As for your comment about Catholic Boards overbuilding and over budget... interesting. All our new schools have come in on budget and on time. And certainly not overbuilt, in many cases we've had portables by year 2. Our hs which opened in 04 had portables year 2 and is set to get an expansion. Guess what, the plans for this school were shared by 2 Catholic Boards. Ours and one in the GTA. The architectural plans for this building have included a 3rd floor and future expansion from concept.... all to save money!

lol

You're a mod, but you're totally wrong on this

Niagara Public
24,600 elementary school students and 14,850 secondary school students in our 95 public elementary schools and 20 public secondary schools.

Niagara Catholic
~14,000 elem, ~7,800 sec, 51 elem schools, 8 sec schools.:facepalm:

It's not rubbish about special ed in public schools. You seem to have zero understanding of how it works, you mention special ed is a per pupil grant, yet you seem to totally disregard section 23 facilities that are housed and supported by the public system. These are the high needs special ed.

It's one thing to be biased, another to be completely wrong and feel you can gloat about it.

Public boards always take the highest need special ed, because it is PUBLIC. Catholic schools are exclusionary, they do not accommodate nearly to the extent that the public board does because they don't have to. If a catholic special ed isn't getting the support they need, they can go to the public system. In the public system, they don't have the luxury to dump the student onto another board.

It is because of the larger number of schools (and hence community use of facilities), providing accommodation to high needs and at risk students and acting as a community gathering/hub that makes closing public schools much harder than catholic. Moreover, everybody knows the catholic proportion of enrolment is going down the gutter because of demographic trends (either more secular or non catholic) so nobody is going to argue enrolment won't drop further notwithstanding future residential development.

However the public board has to deal with the public that see construction activities in condos, low density housing and somehow think enrollment will peak again and they'll be without a community school. Nobody will believe that the catholic enrollment can rise and will accept consolidation.

[Kris81]

lol

You're a mod, but you're totally wrong on this


this is one of those urban legends, where users tend to think mods are normally right.

:D

[gilboman]

this is one of those urban legends, where users tend to think mods are normally right.

:D

no, tend to think they are a bit more reasoned or informed before posting. :lol:

[CSK'sMom]

lol

You're a mod, but you're totally wrong on this

Niagara Public
24,600 elementary school students and 14,850 secondary school students in our 95 public elementary schools and 20 public secondary schools.

Niagara Catholic
~14,000 elem, ~7,800 sec, 51 elem schools, 8 sec schools.:facepalm:

It's not rubbish about special ed in public schools. You seem to have zero understanding of how it works, you mention special ed is a per pupil grant, yet you seem to totally disregard section 23 facilities that are housed and supported by the public system. These are the high needs special ed.

It's one thing to be biased, another to be completely wrong and feel you can gloat about it.

Read the rest of what I wrote, we've been through 2 ARCs and the public board is just going through their first now. The number of schools is not entirely accurate to what it will be once the final decision is made next month.

We have high needs SpED students in the board as well, they are not excluded from the board contrary to what you are implying. Section 23 is hardly a fitting argument here and doesn't even come close to the point. You imply that Catholic boards don't offer any SpED which is ludicrous then try to throw out Section 23. That's the equivalent of saying no school boards offer SpEd services and they are only offered through the provincially run specialty boarding schools. :facepalm:

For anyone that doesn't know, Section 23 deals with education for incarcerated kids and kids in full time care homes for the most part. The funding comes directly from the Ministry of Ed to whoever runs the programming. It could be a school board or even the care home itself...

In response to your edit... HOGWASH! I have volunteered as a SpED advocate for years and 2 of my own have been in the system. Here, kids actually get services unlike the public board. I have helped countless families get their kids the services they are legally entitled to and it's always a fight with the public board. Not to say it's always easy with the Catholic board, but it's certainly much easier than the public board. Some of the idiotic things that have been said by public board SPEd staff.... An FM system, but those are only for deaf kids! OY!

[Ojam]

dearsummer anti teacher union political thread

[CDNPatriot]

Ojam you crack me up. Was wondering where you were.


dearsummer anti teacher union political thread

[Ojam]

Ojam you crack me up. Was wondering where you were.

Kidney transplants tend to put you out of commission for a few days. lol ;) :razz:

[CDNPatriot]

Dearsumer please respond to this. You continually refuse to explain why you keep posting the same nonsense without explaining how this is wrong.

Please read the report. Ontario teachers add more financially back to the economy than do doctors and most other professions on a cost basis. In your Toronto Sun lingo they give us more bang for the buck than any other profession.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w17699.pdf

The Long-Term Impacts of Teachers report by Raj Chetty and John Friedman of Harvard University and Jonah Rockoff of Columbia discovered that Ontario teachers increase the earnings of each student by $25,000 over their lifetimes. Multiply that by a class of 30 and that's almost a million dollars per class. So in other words compared to their output teachers are underpaid.

There are also social benefits to this. Less teen pregnancy with those that attend school. Teachers also influence youth to attend post secondary education and encourage them to save more for retirement. Teachers also have an influence over youth resulting in less incarcerations and improved health. The cost savings that teachers achieve are staggering!

Compare that to Importers like yourself. Importers export jobs out of the economy. And it's estimated that every year an importer works results in 1 million dollars lost to the economy.


Performance is relative. There are some fields (i.e. medicine) where a large percentage of the people could be defined as
high-performers. However, when you stack them up against the rest of the people in that field, there are still different tiers of performance. It's not about being merely "qualified" (i.e. meeting some bare minimum of standards), but about consistently delivering results in excess of your peers. This is how the private sector (mostly) works. The best people are rewarded. This motivates people to be the best. Pretty simple yet unions and the public sector refuse to compensate their people this way.



Since 2004, 27 teachers have been terminated for poor performance in Ontario (source (http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/07/08/why-it%E2%80%99s-so-hard-to-fire-bad-teachers/)). Do you really think that is how many bad teachers are out there? It is nearly impossible to fire bad teachers (let alone identify them).

Ontario teachers have the best compensation package in the world (source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/sep/14/education-spending-class-sizes-school-funding)).

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/9/14/1316010814832/OECD-001.jpg

Ontario is running a $15 billion deficit and approaching $300 billion in accumulated debt. Health care costs are at best going to continue to grow at a rate equal to GDP growth. How can we sustain our current public sector compensation packages and balance the budget? If you have some ideas, there are 13 million people who would like to know.

[jakeer]

CSK'sMom already did a great job of debunking gilboman, but I'll chime in here as well. gilboman, you would be wise to actually listen to what we have to say, since we actually work in these school systems that you have only heard about. I'm constantly amazed at some of the misconceptions that parents of public school students have about what Catholic schools do and have, because some of them are just ludicrous.



It's not because the catholic board can make more difficult decisions. It is because catholic schools were never community schools and people don't care that they close down. There are fewer catholic schools in the first place and majority of students are bussed in. That is a fact.


You got one "fact" right there - in terms of absolute numbers, there are fewer Catholic schools, yes - about half, roughly speaking. That does not, however, mean that there are not a significant number of them. Just look at the stats that you yourself posted about Niagara - even though the numbers are lower, does that really seem like an insignificant amount? Secondly, the idea that they are not community schools is also simply untrue. While they are more spread out, the immediate community surrounding Catholic schools certainly uses them for other things, and there IS significant outcry when they have to close. My own school is basically booked solid every evening and weekend with community uses, and that is not unusual in this Board. Combine that with the fact that many schools are associated with certain Catholic churches, and trust me, people DO care when they close down. Most Catholic boards have done this over time, however, not with something like 5 schools potentially closing at once (which is the situation with the public board here).



Secondly, catholic schools do not provide special education (big $$$) to even a fraction of the public board, all the high needs students, be it disabled, esl, modified behavior etc.. are in the public system.


This statement actually makes me quite upset. Mad, even. You have no idea how much money some Catholic boards spend on Spec Ed, to the point where it actually impacts the funding that the normal programs get. Also, you have no idea how hard many teachers work within the Catholic system to help all those types of students that you list. I've heard this before, that the Catholic boards "ship all their Spec Ed students to the public board", and I have no clue how it started, but it's simply untrue.



It's not rubbish about special ed in public schools. You seem to have zero understanding of how it works, you mention special ed is a per pupil grant, yet you seem to totally disregard section 23 facilities that are housed and supported by the public system. These are the high needs special ed.


We WORK in these systems, and we don't know how they operate? What do you do that makes you have a better understanding, exactly? Spec Ed is absolutely a per pupil grant that is the same for both systems. CSK'sMom already talked about the fallacious argument about Section 23 facilities, which are not only quite rare, but also quite irrelevant to this discussion - as was mentioned, anyone who wants to operate one can, and their funding comes directly from the government.



Public boards always take the highest need special ed, because it is PUBLIC. Catholic schools are exclusionary, they do not accommodate nearly to the extent that the public board does because they don't have to. If a catholic special ed isn't getting the support they need, they can go to the public system. In the public system, they don't have the luxury to dump the student onto another board.


Catholic schools exclude no one - anyone who wants to attend one can. And yes, they DO have to accomodate students just like any other public school in the province. In fact, many parents PREFER the Spec Ed model that many Catholic boards use - one of inclusive education. You see, many parents see it as a disadvantage to have their kids shunted off into a "special class" or a "special school", and would prefer that they be integrated into normal classrooms - lots of Catholic boards take this approach. It's a higher workload for the regular classroom teacher (since they are also responsible for teaching any modified programs that the students may be on), but with support from EAs, it happens every day. Catholic boards can't "dump" students onto public schools if they feel that they are too much of a burden - they are not private, and can't kick anyone out for reasons like that. So again, I have no idea where you're getting this stuff from.

[CDNPatriot]

Thanks for sharing the information jakeer it was very insightful and thanks for debunking the fallicies.


CSK'sMom already did a great job of debunking gilboman, but I'll chime in here as well. gilboman, you would be wise to actually listen to what we have to say, since we actually work in these school systems that you have only heard about. I'm constantly amazed at some of the misconceptions that parents of public school students have about what Catholic schools do and have, because some of them are just ludicrous.



You got one "fact" right there - in terms of absolute numbers, there are fewer Catholic schools, yes - about half, roughly speaking. That does not, however, mean that there are not a significant number of them. Just look at the stats that you yourself posted about Niagara - even though the numbers are lower, does that really seem like an insignificant amount? Secondly, the idea that they are not community schools is also simply untrue. While they are more spread out, the immediate community surrounding Catholic schools certainly uses them for other things, and there IS significant outcry when they have to close. My own school is basically booked solid every evening and weekend with community uses, and that is not unusual in this Board. Combine that with the fact that many schools are associated with certain Catholic churches, and trust me, people DO care when they close down. Most Catholic boards have done this over time, however, not with something like 5 schools potentially closing at once (which is the situation with the public board here).



This statement actually makes me quite upset. Mad, even. You have no idea how much money some Catholic boards spend on Spec Ed, to the point where it actually impacts the funding that the normal programs get. Also, you have no idea how hard many teachers work within the Catholic system to help all those types of students that you list. I've heard this before, that the Catholic boards "ship all their Spec Ed students to the public board", and I have no clue how it started, but it's simply untrue.



We WORK in these systems, and we don't know how they operate? What do you do that makes you have a better understanding, exactly? Spec Ed is absolutely a per pupil grant that is the same for both systems. CSK'sMom already talked about the fallacious argument about Section 23 facilities, which are not only quite rare, but also quite irrelevant to this discussion - as was mentioned, anyone who wants to operate one can, and their funding comes directly from the government.



Catholic schools exclude no one - anyone who wants to attend one can. And yes, they DO have to accomodate students just like any other public school in the province. In fact, many parents PREFER the Spec Ed model that many Catholic boards use - one of inclusive education. You see, many parents see it as a disadvantage to have their kids shunted off into a "special class" or a "special school", and would prefer that they be integrated into normal classrooms - lots of Catholic boards take this approach. It's a higher workload for the regular classroom teacher (since they are also responsible for teaching any modified programs that the students may be on), but with support from EAs, it happens every day. Catholic boards can't "dump" students onto public schools if they feel that they are too much of a burden - they are not private, and can't kick anyone out for reasons like that. So again, I have no idea where you're getting this stuff from.

[kenchau66]

It's about time to cut their fat pay checks.

will be voting for Dalton again.

[DearSummer]

O come on. It is not like you are paying double the tax of other people in the same income bracket. There are other financial benefits to being incorporated.

Stop whining and do something about it. Get a better accountant or move to another country. I hear Mexico and El Salvador have lower corporation taxes and are warm all year round. You will pay lower tax in the US too. A lot of other countries might tax you more.

I am definitely not going to be hiring any new employees or expanding my operations given the current economic situation created by Dalton McGuinty. Less paychecks and tax for Ontario! Who is going to pay for all the welfare checks now? :lol:

[CDNPatriot]

No worries Dearsummer. Judging by the amount of time you've wasted on here on a daily basis there is a lot of gravy in your business.

Starting threads on the following: anti union, anti teacher, anti Air Canada, anti McGuinty, anti middle class, pro Milton Friedman etc.

You've got a lot of time on your hands and it ain't being used on your business. Those that really own big businesses will know, employees are your most valuable asset, and you have to spend a lot of time managing and developing them. Only in your ficitious world does a business owner sit on RFD all day while the business runs itself.


I am definitely not going to be hiring any new employees or expanding my operations given the current economic situation created by Dalton McGuinty. Less paychecks and tax for Ontario! Who is going to pay for all the welfare checks now? :lol:

[manmanny]

I am definitely not going to be hiring any new employees or expanding my operations given the current economic situation created by Dalton McGuinty. Less paychecks and tax for Ontario! Who is going to pay for all the welfare checks now? :lol:

Didn't you hear the guy advocates spend and spend and spend in poor economic conditions?
And Dalton is predicting he will balance the budget...by next election.

Did you hear "Another green energy firm closes in Windsor" (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/story/2012/05/11/wdr-siliken-closes.html)
Any idea how much Dalton paid these guys? in some sort of subsidy or other help?

[stuntman]

I am definitely not going to be hiring any new employees or expanding my operations given the current economic situation created by Dalton McGuinty. Less paychecks and tax for Ontario! Who is going to pay for all the welfare checks now? :lol:

You sure think a lot of yourself.

[CDNPatriot]

No worries Dearsummer, please back up your bags and leave. Another importer business owner will open up your business and charge less than you and work for less and work harder unlike you who sits on RFD all day in that gravy rich company.

No need for welfare Dearsummer, they will access Second Career funds and retrain as Importers as there are a lot of rich fat margins and then flood the market with competition and then squeeze you like a juicy white pimple on a teenagers forehead.


I am definitely not going to be hiring any new employees or expanding my operations given the current economic situation created by Dalton McGuinty. Less paychecks and tax for Ontario! Who is going to pay for all the welfare checks now? :lol:

[webdoctors]

I think if they cut out the guidance councilors, administrators, principals, superintendents, lawyers, basically all the management, they would save a lot of money.

I was shocked to hear that at some schools in the US, the teachers are only 1/3 of the folks on the payroll. I'm not sure what the % is with TDSB, but that's one place I'd look to cut the fat.

When ppl want to cut costs in the school, the administrators always start with teachers because they know that's what will effect the students the most. They should start with everyone but the teacher.

[NG]

Wrong, Catholic schools do not get more funding than public schools! They both get funding through the exact same formula. :facepalm: Now I'll add that Catholic School Boards have always historically been much more fiscally responsible due to the funding formula years past. My own Catholic board went into amalgamation with a reserve when boards were amalgamated and has continued to make the hard decisions with school closings, services, contracts, etc.

This is a TDSB problem as they have continually refused to make the hard decisions and skirt the deficit law on the books...

It's not about funding entirely. It's about secular/non-christian religions (largely Liberal/NDP) vs. Catholic (largely Conservative).

It'd be an ideological pay off to his supporters like me if McGuinty destroyed the separate school board and encourage me to vote/donate/volunteer for him in the next election.

[NG]

catholic school funding is protected under s. 93(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982.

I would get into the history of it but it's long.


Before full funding, Catholic boards only received gov't education dollars for up to grade 8. Highschools had to be funded through tuitions which lead to fiscal responsibility as there was no running to the gov't for more dollars (unlike the TDSB yr after yr).

So this funding for high school isn't covered under the Constitution Act?

If so McGuinty could axe funding for this without opening up the constitution as well as being fiscally prudent by gaining the cost savings of axing Catholic high school funding.

[neutral]

Didn't you hear the guy advocates spend and spend and spend in poor economic conditions?
And Dalton is predicting he will balance the budget...by next election.

Did you hear "Another green energy firm closes in Windsor" (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/story/2012/05/11/wdr-siliken-closes.html)
Any idea how much Dalton paid these guys? in some sort of subsidy or other help?

You got it. McGuinty is responsible for a recession that has affected most of the world. Smart analysis friend.

[flashy_mcflash]

It's not about funding entirely. It's about secular/non-christian religions (largely Liberal/NDP) vs. Catholic (largely Conservative).

It'd be an ideological pay off to his supporters like me if McGuinty destroyed the separate school board and encourage me to vote/donate/volunteer for him in the next election.

Precisely. Their unwillingness to come out in support of GSA's is just the nail in the coffin. I think a lot of people are through with this kind of bigotry and are ready to have a serious talk about defunding separate schools, and rightfully so. If they can't change with the times, they'll be left behind.

[gilboman]

Read the rest of what I wrote, we've been through 2 ARCs and the public board is just going through their first now. The number of schools is not entirely accurate to what it will be once the final decision is made next month.

We have high needs SpED students in the board as well, they are not excluded from the board contrary to what you are implying. Section 23 is hardly a fitting argument here and doesn't even come close to the point. You imply that Catholic boards don't offer any SpED which is ludicrous then try to throw out Section 23. That's the equivalent of saying no school boards offer SpEd services and they are only offered through the provincially run specialty boarding schools. :facepalm:

For anyone that doesn't know, Section 23 deals with education for incarcerated kids and kids in full time care homes for the most part. The funding comes directly from the Ministry of Ed to whoever runs the programming. It could be a school board or even the care home itself...

In response to your edit... HOGWASH! I have volunteered as a SpED advocate for years and 2 of my own have been in the system. Here, kids actually get services unlike the public board. I have helped countless families get their kids the services they are legally entitled to and it's always a fight with the public board. Not to say it's always easy with the Catholic board, but it's certainly much easier than the public board. Some of the idiotic things that have been said by public board SPEd staff.... An FM system, but those are only for deaf kids! OY!

You've been through 2 ARC's because your enrollment have been dropping a lot faster because catholic participation rates are down so it's been much more pressing for catholic boards to close schools than public. Not because catholic board is better managed, it's just the fire was burning faster and closer.

You don't mention how Section 23 are in public schools and public schools provide the majority of the facilities for them..you know why? because there's more of them around. You can sugarcoat it and walk around it all you want, fact is public schools are community facilities and provide much more than catholic schools. That's why there's so much more opposition to them closing. It's just more people care if you close a public school because they have a larger "customer" base.

Yes , province funds section 23, but do you even know what that means? of course you don't. The majority are in public schools, notwithstanding your entertaining tidbit on how they could be anywhere , even a home. That's not how it is in practice. Province provides funding for the staffing and stipend for some equipment, they do not pay for the capital dollars needed to house them. As in a program goes into a public school, the caretaking, and capital dollars for that school, loss of use of the rooms inside the school, incurring the cost of portables are not covered. And these programs are in public schools because there are more of them and for these at risk kids, location is very important for acceptability.

Which is another reason why public schools are much more community institutions than catholic schools, who's only mandate is to teach their own.
It boils down to, public board has about 2x population as catholic, there will be 2x the opposition to them closing anything. Also, community and special ed use in public is much more prevalent than in catholic system. When you close a catholic school, you can goto public if you don't like it and you're school will more than likely be closer. Close a public school and then what? :cheesygri

[gilboman]

CSK'sMom already did a great job of debunking gilboman, but I'll chime in here as well. gilboman, you would be wise to actually listen to what we have to say, since we actually work in these school systems that you have only heard about. I'm constantly amazed at some of the misconceptions that parents of public school students have about what Catholic schools do and have, because some of them are just ludicrous.



You got one "fact" right there - in terms of absolute numbers, there are fewer Catholic schools, yes - about half, roughly speaking. That does not, however, mean that there are not a significant number of them. Just look at the stats that you yourself posted about Niagara - even though the numbers are lower, does that really seem like an insignificant amount? Secondly, the idea that they are not community schools is also simply untrue. While they are more spread out, the immediate community surrounding Catholic schools certainly uses them for other things, and there IS significant outcry when they have to close. My own school is basically booked solid every evening and weekend with community uses, and that is not unusual in this Board. Combine that with the fact that many schools are associated with certain Catholic churches, and trust me, people DO care when they close down. Most Catholic boards have done this over time, however, not with something like 5 schools potentially closing at once (which is the situation with the public board here).

Yes insignificant because it's less than half and shrinking much faster. catholic schools are becoming irrelevant because of demographics. That's why you see enrollment increasing public and decreasing in catholic, even in high growth areas.




This statement actually makes me quite upset. Mad, even. You have no idea how much money some Catholic boards spend on Spec Ed, to the point where it actually impacts the funding that the normal programs get. Also, you have no idea how hard many teachers work within the Catholic system to help all those types of students that you list. I've heard this before, that the Catholic boards "ship all their Spec Ed students to the public board", and I have no clue how it started, but it's simply untrue. We WORK in these systems, and we don't know how they operate? What do you do that makes you have a better understanding, exactly? Spec Ed is absolutely a per pupil grant that is the same for both systems. CSK'sMom already talked about the fallacious argument about Section 23 facilities, which are not only quite rare, but also quite irrelevant to this discussion - as was mentioned, anyone who wants to operate one can, and their funding comes directly from the government.

lol... just because you work in it doesn't mean you know how it works. It's like a TTC driver saying they know automotive engineering. If anything, you lack the macro management view of the whole thing system wide. The worst offenders are school level workers who operate in their own little world ...as in their own school, they don't even know how their Board works let alone system province wide.

It's true because catholic schools are exclusionary. How can you deny that? At the elementary panel, you need to be catholic, that already pretty much excludes majority of immigrants in the province, especially the high needs one such as refugees and SE asians etc. High needs because not only do they lack english proficiency, but are just totally unfamiliar with how anything including the school system works and their kids are very high need. Something you never see because you are a "front line" worker in the system.


you and CSK's mom may have some experience at the local school level, but lack the knowledge of the macro picture and are biased by your microism of what you see. You say it's not true that catholic schools have less support for high needs students. Tell that to the new immigrant from sri lanka..oh ya, you can't because they won't even go into the catholic system and their parents don't even know basic english. Try telling them their kid has been IPRC'd and will be in a community class for MID. Something cathlolic system will never need to do.

So don't go tell me the catholic system comes anywhere near the public board for special ed or working with high needs students and their high needs families as well.

[NorthYorker]

I am definitely not going to be hiring any new employees or expanding my operations given the current economic situation created by Dalton McGuinty.Well, leaving aside the senile argument that McGuinty somehow responsible for the economic mess this world is in (I'll give you that his policies might have contributed to Ontario's situation, but you provided zero proof of it), are you going to claim that you pay anything above minimum legal wage to your workforce?
It's not about funding entirely. It's about secular/non-christian religions (largely Liberal/NDP) vs. Catholic (largely Conservative). Disagree. The situation is more complicated than that. Catholic Italians are, by and large, Liberal voters, and WASPs (who pay their taxes to public school system) are Conservative.
At the elementary panel, you need to be catholicNot necessarily. I know several Orthodox Christians who got their kids into Catholic system in Richmond Hill, where Catholic board was willing to pad their attendance numbers rather then close schools. I have no idea how widespread this practice is, but it does exist.

[Rainne]

Lol

It's odd how private school provide a better education / environment, yet their teachers are paid less than public school (I think one of my teachers made like 55k/yr and has worked there for like 8+ years). That's without the lucrative benefits and pensions as well.

[peanutz]

Lol

It's odd how private school provide a better education / environment, yet their teachers are paid less than public school (I think one of my teachers made like 55k/yr and has worked there for like 8+ years). That's without the lucrative benefits and pensions as well.Please explain how it is "odd". Private schools have a smaller student:teacher ratio.

[Rainne]

Please explain how it is "odd". Private schools have a smaller student:teacher ratio.

I think our ratio was like..25:1/class or something, depending on the subject.

[peanutz]

I think our ratio was like..25:1/class or something, depending on the subject.I don't believe your "think". Show me which school or what numbers. Also, what does "depending on the subject" mean? That some courses might have 7 students per teacher?

In my (public) high school, there were maybe 18 students in my girls' gym class at a time. In some courses like English (something that generally everyone, boys and girls, have to take) it was pushing 30-31. I went to a good school with a highly dedicated music and history department, although the science teachers were also strong.

Also consider these articles:
'Buying a credit' trend worrying for educators
http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/article/678837

Public-school graduates beat private pupils in undergrad, research finds
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/public-school-graduates-beat-private-pupils-in-undergrad-research-finds/article2410574/

Pretty sure one of the selling points of most private schools is the "lower student-to-teacher" ratio. In addition, with the inflated inward money-flow that private schools get and the inflated grades that private schools may give, I'm sure they have some extra money and time for enriching activities that may not be available at public schools. Perhaps the student populations may also have less money and time for extra-curriculars that add to a private student's well-roundedness, and the selectivity of private schools may lend a more pleasant environment. However, I am unconvinced that the quality of education delivered at many public schools--or their teachers--are necessarily compromised.

[NG]

Precisely. Their unwillingness to come out in support of GSA's is just the nail in the coffin. I think a lot of people are through with this kind of bigotry and are ready to have a serious talk about defunding separate schools, and rightfully so. If they can't change with the times, they'll be left behind.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/majority-ontarians-oppose-catholic-school-funding-support-gay-stright-alliances-1177261/

[CDNPatriot]

Stock market took a hit today on news that Dearsummer, RFD Off Topic poster extraordinaire will not be hiring in the near future.


I am definitely not going to be hiring any new employees or expanding my operations given the current economic situation created by Dalton McGuinty. Less paychecks and tax for Ontario! Who is going to pay for all the welfare checks now? :lol:

[jamgyu]

Just to stay on topic for the thread title... this might be an interesting read for some following the thread.

http://www.peopleforeducation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/People-for-Education-analysis-of-Ontarios-2012-budget-for-education.pdf