1st year junior lawyer

[Baigle]

Anybody here just starting at a law firm? A friend of mine is trying to figure out how much they should be looking for when negotiating first year pay.
1st year medium size law (10-20 lawyers) firm in Ottawa.

What kind of benefits are included? Law fees included? Vacation?

Any info would help.

Thanks

[canehdianman]

http://www.infirmation.com/shared/search/payscale-compare.tcl?city=Ottawa%2c%20Canada&usps_abbrev=

[pupazzo]

Probably like 64k/yr

[Baigle]

thanks thats what I said to try and get anything over 60k is good.

[Octavius]

thanks thats what I said to try and get anything over 60k is good.

60k might be stretching it a bit for the Ottawa legal market. Still, it's a good amount to aim for, but I wouldn't turn down 55k if it was offered.

[the_fm]

agree with octavius. the sweet spot is around 55k. anything more than that is gravy. if you can get it, great :)

[anon666]

You've got to be ##$$ing kidding me. Are we in the same universe here? Negotiating for a first year associate salary in this legal job market? lol, yeah, go and ahead and give that a try. Unless you're a star (think recent SCC clerk) you don't have much negotiating leverage. Be thankful you get an offer at all.

[mma01]

You've got to be ##$$ing kidding me. Are we in the same universe here? Negotiating for a first year associate salary in this legal job market? lol, yeah, go and ahead and give that a try. Unless you're a star (think recent SCC clerk) you don't have much negotiating leverage. Be thankful you get an offer at all.

Agreed. My best friend is a partner at a major bay st law firm and told me that their hirebacks this year where 40% of a typical year. Consider yourself to be lucky to get an offer at all.

[yads12]

FWIW, I know there is a lot of hiring activity in Calgary for lawyers. If anyone is interested PM me and I can put you in contact with someone.

[Mrbj]

FWIW, I know there is a lot of hiring activity in Calgary for lawyers. If anyone is interested PM me and I can put you in contact with someone.

+1.

I'm surprised to see salary numbers from different people here. In Calgary, students are starting 65K+ and first year associate makes 75K+, depending on the lawfirm of course. They beat 6 figures in their second or third year. They get alll the benefits and big bonuses as well depending on how many hours they put. They are expected to put at least 1800 billable hours in one year - students get lower end work like due diligence and stuff like that, so 1800 hours is not too difficult to achieve.

Edit: I believe this information to be accurate - or very close at least

http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insider/payscale.tcl?state=international
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=XX9600
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=XX9500
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=XY0081

[Baigle]

I personaly work in finance and have not been seeing this doom and gloom that you are talking about. If you are good at your job companies are still hiring in most sectors from what I can tell. I guess just the extra fat being trimmed....

Thanks for the advice for the other people that have answered.

[canehdianman]

+1.

I'm surprised to see salary numbers from different people here. In Calgary, students are starting 65K+ and first year associate makes 75K+, depending on the lawfirm of course. They beat 6 figures in their second or third year. They get alll the benefits and big bonuses as well depending on how many hours they put. They are expected to put at least 1800 billable hours in one year - students get lower end work like due diligence and stuff like that, so 1800 hours is not too difficult to achieve.

Edit: I believe this information to be accurate - or very close at least

http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insider/payscale.tcl?state=international
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=XX9600
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=XX9500
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=XY0081

This is for the big firms. A lot of smaller firms are paying much less (but require fewer billable hours).

I don't think I've ever hit 1800 billable hours (and I hope I never do).

[canehdianman]

I personaly work in finance and have not been seeing this doom and gloom that you are talking about. If you are good at your job companies are still hiring in most sectors from what I can tell. I guess just the extra fat being trimmed....

Thanks for the advice for the other people that have answered.

I'm not seeing a lot of doom and gloom, but financing (from the legal side at least) is quite slow. If it continues, summer will be almost dead.

[drey2k]

Wow so 7/8 years of school and you are lucky to get $55k... sign me up!

Disgusting.

[JK400]

Wow so 7/8 years of school and you are lucky to get $55k... sign me up!

Disgusting.

Law is a pretty crap field to get into these days. If you look at the investment you need to make in terms of time money and energy versus the average payback it isn't good at all, and I'm pretty sure people who understand probability and stats wouldn't be going into it. The average law school hopeful is making a desperation move, usually a philosophy major or similar who is at wits end and really has no other options other than starbucks.

[Anonymouse]

Do their salaries go up dramatically after the apprenticeship period? Because engineering is not looking so bad in comparison; you start at $60k and are making $80k within 7-8 years, without having to live in Fort Mac. And it's a little more than half the years in school.

[anon666]

Law is a pretty crap field to get into these days. If you look at the investment you need to make in terms of time money and energy versus the average payback it isn't good at all, and I'm pretty sure people who understand probability and stats wouldn't be going into it. The average law school hopeful is making a desperation move, usually a philosophy major or similar who is at wits end and really has no other options other than starbucks.

agreed. the market is saturated with grads and many can't find articling positions, never mind stable employment to practice law. law school is really turning into a big scam. most lawyers make a modest living. to be making the big money (usually in corporate/commercial law) you don't have a life (think 80+ hour weeks stuck in an office doing the most mind numbing paperwork you can imagine). that would be fine if the work were at least interesting.

[Powder + park raider]

haha 1st year and he already thinks he's hot *****? go ahead and make a counter offer. we will all laugh when he gets kicked out the door with no job. while the next guy gets it.

[Terrific_Deals2k8]

Wow, $55-60K eh? That sucks... Even a CA makes more money and spends less time in school, plus the CA is basically paid by the office. Most Big 4/mid-size Sr. Associates will earn at least $55-65K after receiving their designation...
So, basically, $30K less in education costs versus obtaining a JD/LLB, and we earn the same salary? Oh, and the CA would have more exit op's compared to the junior lawyer that's just starting at the bottom... wow!

[Mrbj]

Wow, $55-60K eh? That sucks... Even a CA makes more money and spends less time in school, plus the CA is basically paid by the office. Most Big 4/mid-size Sr. Associates will earn at least $55-65K after receiving their designation...
So, basically, $30K less in education costs versus obtaining a JD/LLB, and we earn the same salary? Oh, and the CA would have more exit op's compared to the junior lawyer that's just starting at the bottom... wow!

Have to disagree here. Eventhough they have a bit slower start but the growth is very rapid and within few years they beat 6 figure mark and in large law firm they can start making almost 250K in 8 years. Not many professional make that kind of money.

Another plus, espcially in major firms, is you get to spend lots of money every year in marking + business promotion expense. Free lunches, free hockey games, free flights.... it's not as bad as you think.

As the person above mentioned 1800hours are quite a lot; in small firm it might be the case but in bigger law firms you can spend your weeks doing due diligence etc and I've seen many people breaking 2000hour mark - and they still take vacation etc.

[canehdianman]

Wow so 7/8 years of school and you are lucky to get $55k... sign me up!

Disgusting.

LOL, it goes up significantly after that.

I'm a 5th year call and I make mid 100s, plus bonus working at a smaller corporate firm in Calgary.

EDIT:

and to add to Mrbj's post, the partners at my firm likely make over 300k each.

[ac328]

+1, who cares what the first year salary is? You're green and don't know ***** about the business of practising law, let alone having the technical skills required. If you have what it takes the money will come.

Lol @ the people that call it "disgusting".

Plus if you want really good money ottawa is not where you should be anyway.

[Terrific_Deals2k8]

Subtract the cost of your education and you're not ahead by much. How many hours are you working? A CA with 2-3 yrs of post designation experience have a lot of opportunities and can easily pull in $90-120k plus bonuses in Calgary with all the oil money in the province. And remember, they disnt pay anything for the CA designation. And during those 3 yrs a law student spedns studying, the auditor/accountant would be earning a bit more... Btw, a partner at a Big 4 firm also earns $250k+ in GVR so I image it'd be higher in AB.

Now factor in that CA goes off after 5 yrs of experience to get an MBA. Sure he pays $40-60K, which is 10-30k more, but that would bump up their earning potential even more. They'd probably easily earn $130-150k + bonuses and expenses.


LOL, it goes up significantly after that.

I'm a 5th year call and I make mid 100s, plus bonus working at a smaller corporate firm in Calgary.

EDIT:

and to add to Mrbj's post, the partners at my firm likely make over 300k each.

[WannaBe]

I personaly work in finance and have not been seeing this doom and gloom that you are talking about. If you are good at your job companies are still hiring in most sectors from what I can tell. I guess just the extra fat being trimmed....

Thanks for the advice for the other people that have answered.



The legal industry has changed dramatically in recent years. Many of the clients (big firms that need lawyers to do legal work related to mergers, etc) are pushing back at having to pay high rates per hour for inexperienced lawyers who are fresh out of school. In order to remain competitive, many law firms are outsourcing entry level research work (eg, to lawyers in India who can spend hours searching legal documents for the required info at much lower rates per hour than their North American counterparts). In addition, too many law school grads (in the U.S., at least) is adding excessive supply versus market demand.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html

.

[Abel4Life]

The legal industry has changed dramatically in recent years. Many of the clients (big firms that need lawyers to do legal work related to mergers, etc) are pushing back at having to pay high rates per hour for inexperienced lawyers who are fresh out of school. In order to remain competitive, many law firms are outsourcing entry level research work (eg, to lawyers in India who can spend hours searching legal documents for the required info at much lower rates per hour than their North American counterparts). In addition, too many law school grads (in the U.S., at least) is adding excessive supply versus market demand.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html

.

I read an article mentioning the same for professional services firms and pushing back on a reduced hourly rate for new grads. It makes sense that paying a full rate for training and putting together excel templates is a waste of money then getting actual value added consulting from an experienced expert. People need to do the 'grunt' work but can do so at a lower cost.

[RPMAutomotive]

Subtract the cost of your education and you're not ahead by much. How many hours are you working? A CA with 2-3 yrs of post designation experience have a lot of opportunities and can easily pull in $90-120k plus bonuses in Calgary with all the oil money in the province. And remember, they disnt pay anything for the CA designation. And during those 3 yrs a law student spedns studying, the auditor/accountant would be earning a bit more... Btw, a partner at a Big 4 firm also earns $250k+ in GVR so I image it'd be higher in AB.

Now factor in that CA goes off after 5 yrs of experience to get an MBA. Sure he pays $40-60K, which is 10-30k more, but that would bump up their earning potential even more. They'd probably easily earn $130-150k + bonuses and expenses.

What's with all the comparisons to CAs here? While I agree not everyone went into law for the right reasons, many did choose law because that is their passion. I could argue that not everyone wants to do mind numbing audit work for two years, or that an analyst at an investment bank makes way more than a CA does with bonus and still makes more after 5 years. As well, doctors have to do 8 years of school plus residency just to make 6 figures. Was it worth it, probably yes, because that's where their interests lie.

Jenny

[Rainne]

^ Probably because those who study law and accounting have similar mindsets, psych profiles

Science is a completely different approach.

[Baigle]

Whoa!! Talk about a lot of haters lol.

FYI they are currently articling there and their boss told them to look into what other juniors are getting paid, thats why I am asking.

People telling me they should just take anything that is offered and be happy, why so negative? If they can get a good deal why not try and get it? Why shortchange yourself? With that attitude maybe thats why people have trouble getting jobs, thinking they are desperate and should take anything that comes.

People can sense that you are desperate. kinda like picking up chicks...big turnoff.

I am being told that the boss is very impressed with their work and they have had other firms interested in giving them a job, they don't want to make a million their first year they just want to get a fair salary.

The jobs are still out there if you get out of your parents basement, just cause you have a degree/qualifcations dosn't mean your not an idiot.

[Baigle]

This person also did not do 7/8 years of school. They studied civil law then changed to common law significantly shortening the lenght of time in University.

[niroopg]

People are looking at the starting salary as if it undergoes a similar pay scaling in subsequent years to the likes of Engineering. The scale is more acute and top end potential is much higher than those with an engineering. Opportunities for partnership and starting your own business also increases potential.

But, with law, you have to be great to get paid well.

[Dani271]

FWIW, I know there is a lot of hiring activity in Calgary for lawyers. If anyone is interested PM me and I can put you in contact with someone.

1

[Baigle]

Just an update. This person accepted a job at 60k plus benefits, couple weeks vacation and all their legal (license, insurance, continuing education) paid.

Thanks to all of those that helped