Misuse of OSAP Money

[Simaahoy]

Student life used to be a hand-to-mouth existence juggling mounting debts, part-time work and study.

Not anymore. A university student recently posted on a popular online forum: “OSAP coming in soon — need help picking my Goose!”

The writer meant Canada Goose, as in the upwards-of-$500 feather-filled winter jackets.

The reason? He was investing in a sturdy winter jacket for the next few years, using money provided by the Ontario Student Assistance Program (OSAP).

Somebody on this forum got their thread quoted by Toronto Sun, can anyone guess who it is?:lol:

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/20/the-misuse-of-osap-money


If they choose to drink and party with the cash, it doesn't matter as long as they pay it back right?

[Rainne]

Lol wow, considering that was an intentional troll thread, can't believe Toronto Sun actually quoted.

Good job Syne.

[dragon_drift]

I know someone who borrowed way more than enough, spent it on LV, prada etc and a new car. Now she's broke and can't pay it back.

Meanwhile, I need to work my butt off because OSAP won't give me enough to cover my tuition.

[umop]

http://i46.tinypic.com/343j2uo.gif

[Mark77]

Last time I looked at those loan programs, they barely, if even, lent enough money to cover school and the associated living expenses.

For instance, just punching in numbers for a year at Waterloo engineering, their calculator says it will cost ~$22k, while OSAP hits a limit at $14k.

I don't see how this could really be abused, unless someone is providing false statements in terms of their family resources/assets/etc.

[Powder + park raider]

way to stimulate the economy lol

[Ojam]

lol the sun was trolled.

[Jimboski]

Lol Syne.

[Tijuana]

Last time I looked at those loan programs, they barely, if even, lent enough money to cover school and the associated living expenses.

For instance, just punching in numbers for a year at Waterloo engineering, their calculator says it will cost ~$22k, while OSAP hits a limit at $14k.

I don't see how this could really be abused, unless someone is providing false statements in terms of their family resources/assets/etc.

So.. according to you.. OSAP doesn't give enough to cover the cost of school.. so that means it is much easier to spend money on non-school related purchases... Yeah.. I see your logic...

[MrKap]

Haha.... figures they would be all over that bleeding heart pinko liberal

[kanaha21]

Last time I looked at those loan programs, they barely, if even, lent enough money to cover school and the associated living expenses.

For instance, just punching in numbers for a year at Waterloo engineering, their calculator says it will cost ~$22k, while OSAP hits a limit at $14k.

I don't see how this could really be abused, unless someone is providing false statements in terms of their family resources/assets/etc.


It's not that OSAP doesn't give you any money past 14k - it's just that anything past 14k isn't counted as a loan. Any difference past the 14k is deducted via various grants (such as the millenium grant) for students in extreme financial need. It's calculated via various sources including your personal income, your parents income, bursaries, tuition, living expenses etc. It's kind of a stupid system however in that it almost encourages laziness so that a student can decides not to work/get experience to not have the pay back anything over the 14k. Also, people may have high-income parents who provide nothing for their children - thus leaving them in the hole. As for people who blow their OSAP on frivolous status items, you should take comfort in the fact that even if they end up making 100k+ a year, they probably won't ever be financially independent.

[yao416]

Syne!!!!:cheesygri

http://fakeplus.com/pictures/jpg/mona-lisa-trolled-btch-pleaseme-gusta_20120404092424.jpg

[CSK'sMom]

It's not that OSAP doesn't give you any money past 14k - it's just that anything past 14k isn't counted as a loan. Any difference past the 14k is deducted via various grants (such as the millenium grant) for students in extreme financial need. It's calculated via various sources including your personal income, your parents income, bursaries, tuition, living expenses etc. It's kind of a stupid system however in that it almost encourages laziness so that a student can decides not to work/get experience to not have the pay back anything over the 14k. Also, people may have high-income parents who provide nothing for their children - thus leaving them in the hole. As for people who blow their OSAP on frivolous status items, you should take comfort in the fact that even if they end up making 100k+ a year, they probably won't ever be financially independent.

Fail! You would be totally wrong on the OSAP max, etc. :facepalm:

[_Allan_]

My OSAP for Jan-Aug (2 semesters) was $13k. My tuition for those two semesters was $3500. I didn't have to work semester 1, but I'm looking for 10 hours work during S2.+
I don't buy 'douchy' coats like Canada Goose (I could afford it...) instead, I bought something else - a 51" Samsung Plasma TV for just around $600.

[medalgo]

Notice how Canadians always reject Canadian things

but always buy foreign products

it's always been like this


=

Tell me all about your canadian branded tv, cell phone, computer, fridge, microwave etc.

I wouldnt be very happy wearing Canada goose using a blackberry on an overpriced Rogers plan

He was just saying he'd rather spend his money more productively, mr patriot

[_Allan_]

Notice how Canadians always reject Canadian things

but always buy foreign products

it's always been like this

=

Canada Goose jackets are for the same douche's who wear sunglasses in the dark and/or inside.

Name one company - that is 100% Canadian - that makes TV's.
Name one company - that is 100% Canadian - that makes automobiles.
Name one company - that is 100% Canadian - that makes laptop or desktop computers hardware (NOT talking small stores like CanadaComputer or the like.)
Name one company - that is 100% Canadian (other than RIM who is in a death spiral...) - that makes cellphones.
Name one company - that is 100% Canadian (other than Roots) - that makes the clothing you are currently wearing. Wait, you're not wearing ROOTS? Surprise surprise Mr. "Everyone else Buy Canada, but I'm going to buy foreign."

[uber_shnitz]

No offense meant to Allan, but spending OSAP money on a TV as opposed to a Canada Goose jacket isn't really much better IMO in terms of "spending the education money". Mind you, you're planning on working so that's fine you're probably just using the OSAP as kind of a credit thing I'm just saying that purely financially wise it's no smarter a move IMO.

Although I find it a bit skewed the article mentions some people from wealthy families get more than people from poorer ones...

[stuntman]

Notice how Canadians always reject Canadian things

but always buy foreign products

it's always been like this
=

Always?
RFD is Canadian....are you Canadian?

[mysticalinfluence]

If they choose to drink and party with the cash, it doesn't matter as long as they pay it back right?

It's does matter the money was loaned to pay for education not partying and Canada Goose and most the time they never pay it back. This why there should be no loans for students at all.

[medalgo]

It's does matter the money was loaned to pay for education not partying and Canada Goose and most the time they never pay it back. This why there should be no loans for students at all.

lol there's one syne and 99999 students who actually need it, don't poison your own mind over Toronto Sun, though I don't recall agreeing much with you in the past anyway

What should really be done is osap should take into account a family's net assets not net income, and money should be given directly to universities and not the students

[ur_funneh]

Why doesn't the money go straight to the college's bank account instead of passing it by the student. Baffles me.

[Typhoonz]

It's does matter the money was loaned to pay for education not partying and Canada Goose and most the time they never pay it back. This why there should be no loans for students at all.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to pay OSAP back :(. By misusing it they are really screwing themselves over.

[Mykester]

Why doesn't the money go straight to the college's bank account instead of passing it by the student. Baffles me.

They also take into account transportation and books and other expenses.

[Typhoonz]

They also take into account transportation and books and other expenses.

By by giving the school the money for books and tuition directly students would maybe think twice before blowing all that money on things they don't need but rather want.

[renoldman]

By by giving the school the money for books and tuition directly students would maybe think twice before blowing all that money on things they don't need but rather want.

Actually your school takes their tuition up front, or if you go to school September to April, they may take half in September and the other half in January.

[renoldman]

Notice how Canadians always reject Canadian things

but always buy foreign products

it's always been like this


=

Typical Canadian buys foreign products ....

And then wonders where all the jobs are.

Also congrats to Syne on being published!

[_Allan_]

Why doesn't the money go straight to the college's bank account instead of passing it by the student. Baffles me.

Because of my past, and my current medial issues, OSAP has given me enough for rent, bills, food, etc etc. So the amount that's owed to the school goes DIRECT to them, and the rest, comes to me, so I can LIVE.

[_Allan_]

No offense meant to Allan, but spending OSAP money on a TV as opposed to a Canada Goose jacket isn't really much better IMO in terms of "spending the education money". Mind you, you're planning on working so that's fine you're probably just using the OSAP as kind of a credit thing I'm just saying that purely financially wise it's no smarter a move IMO.

Although I find it a bit skewed the article mentions some people from wealthy families get more than people from poorer ones...

No offence taken. BTW, if it makes it better, I got $250 for my previous TV - which offsets the cost of the new one down to $400. I also got a cheque from my previous job for 'vacation pay' total around $130 so that reduced my actual TV cost down to $270. For a 51" TV that RETAILED for $1999.99 paying just $270 is a damn good deal!

[stuntman]

Why doesn't the money go straight to the college's bank account instead of passing it by the student. Baffles me.

That bugs me too. How hard would it be for the government to have the CC companies help manage the funds by forcing their dispensation via an OSAP card that would track those purchases?

OSAP abuse has been going on forever. Kids are often not good planners. They see money and spend it fast. Maybe it is part of growing up though. One of those life lessons and the government likes it that way.



Me? I got screwed while my friends bought stereos and bikes with their OSAP money. OSAP said I would get squat and my parents said no I had to wait many years and go 100% on my own dime.......tiny fiddles please.


sm

[MissMalfoy]

Actually your school takes their tuition up front, or if you go to school September to April, they may take half in September and the other half in January.
My school doesn't take anything. I'm responsible to pay them myself, even with OSAP. I get 100% of the loan into my bank account.

[epik89]

who cares about where they use there osap money

in the end they have to pay it back.

[uber_shnitz]

who cares about where they use there osap money

in the end they have to pay it back.

The issue is that the government does not have unlimited funds so giving money to those who don't need it reduces potential funds to those who do.

The article states this very plainly:
“They actually gave me a lot of money at first for some reason and it was weird because [while] I’m not rich, I guess I’m from a well-off family,” Smith said. “And I have a friend who went to university as well, and he needed the money and they didn’t give him all the money for tuition for that semester.”

My understanding of OSAP is very limited so correct me if I'm wrong (studying in ON but from QC) but shouldn't OSAP(or any student loan) be intrinsically related to the student and his/her family's income? That way, if the student has family that can afford their tuition or have other means such as bursaries or education funds, OSAP should be reduced to accommodate.

Seems from my understanding, the ones who really "abuse" OSAP are the ones who didn't really use it to pay their tuition or had a lot of it left after paying tuition, this means that they might have been ok even without OSAP. The Quebec government when issuing loans/grants always looks at all your income(and looks at tax statements to prove it) and will ask for a parental contribution and student contribution based on their income/assets.

[Typhoonz]

The issue is that the government does not have unlimited funds so giving money to those who don't need it reduces potential funds to those who do.

The article states this very plainly:
“They actually gave me a lot of money at first for some reason and it was weird because [while] I’m not rich, I guess I’m from a well-off family,” Smith said. “And I have a friend who went to university as well, and he needed the money and they didn’t give him all the money for tuition for that semester.”

My understanding of OSAP is very limited so correct me if I'm wrong (studying in ON but from QC) but shouldn't OSAP(or any student loan) be intrinsically related to the student and his/her family's income? That way, if the student has family that can afford their tuition or have other means such as bursaries or education funds, OSAP should be reduced to accommodate.

Seems from my understanding, the ones who really "abuse" OSAP are the ones who didn't really use it to pay their tuition or had a lot of it left after paying tuition, this means that they might have been ok even without OSAP. The Quebec government when issuing loans/grants always looks at all your income(and looks at tax statements to prove it) and will ask for a parental contribution and student contribution based on their income/assets.

I agree that OSAP should be used directly towards school and nothing else, as like you said, the government doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. However, they should not take into consideration your parents income, UNLESS they are directly paying towards your school. My parents make well above the cut off limit, but they pay for ZERO of my schooling, so everything is left to be paid by myself. They let me live at home while in school, which is kind and OSAP takes that into account. But people shouldn't be penalized because of what their parents earn. If parents are paying tuition then yeah, don't give them extra money.

[uber_shnitz]

I agree that OSAP should be used directly towards school and nothing else, as like you said, the government doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. However, they should not take into consideration your parents income, UNLESS they are directly paying towards your school. My parents make well above the cut off limit, but they pay for ZERO of my schooling, so everything is left to be paid by myself. They let me live at home while in school, which is kind and OSAP takes that into account. But people shouldn't be penalized because of what their parents earn. If parents are paying tuition then yeah, don't give them extra money.

Actually funny story here...the government(and therefore the law) states that depending on your parents' income, as their legal child, you are entitled to a given contribution from them to your higher education if you so wish (as long as they declare themselves your parents and that they declare supporting you financially). If they refuse, you can actually take them to court and force them legally to pay you the amount estimated by the government as "parental contribution". It's really weird when you think about it...suing your parents but it's been done in the past. The other option is to have your parents sign a "declaration of non-financial backing" where basically they tell the government that legally they will not support you financially so the government will not take them into account.

My issue though is that there's no way to really control "intent" legally. Your parents' income either is or isn't a factor. It can't practically be applied legally whether they "intend" to pay for your schooling or not because there's no legal way to really monitor it. My issue is that if it's not a factor, then nothing is stopping you as a kid from simply not taking a part-time job, getting lots of OSAP(due to not having income yourself and my understanding is that the OSAP given far exceeds what a minimum wage job could give you in a year working part time), then just turning around and asking your parents to pay your tuition and use the OSAP money. At least if it's linked to both incomes, there will be less abuse of this kind. Yeah, if it's a situation like yours where your parents won't pay it's sad, but then it's up to the government to manage the "contributions" portion properly. Here, I think parental contribution is below 40% and only goes lower depending on other factors (their marital status, employment status, health status, if they have other kids etc). I'm sure there'd be ways to appeal to the government too if your case was the exception as opposed to the rule.

[Typhoonz]

Actually funny story here...the government(and therefore the law) states that depending on your parents' income, as their legal child, you are entitled to a given contribution from them to your higher education if you so wish (as long as they declare themselves your parents and that they declare supporting you financially). If they refuse, you can actually take them to court and force them legally to pay you the amount estimated by the government as "parental contribution". It's really weird when you think about it...suing your parents but it's been done in the past. The other option is to have your parents sign a "declaration of non-financial backing" where basically they tell the government that legally they will not support you financially so the government will not take them into account.

My issue though is that there's no way to really control "intent" legally. Your parents' income either is or isn't a factor. It can't practically be applied legally whether they "intend" to pay for your schooling or not because there's no legal way to really monitor it. My issue is that if it's not a factor, then nothing is stopping you as a kid from simply not taking a part-time job, getting lots of OSAP(due to not having income yourself and my understanding is that the OSAP given far exceeds what a minimum wage job could give you in a year working part time), then just turning around and asking your parents to pay your tuition and use the OSAP money. At least if it's linked to both incomes, there will be less abuse of this kind. Yeah, if it's a situation like yours where your parents won't pay it's sad, but then it's up to the government to manage the "contributions" portion properly. Here, I think parental contribution is below 40% and only goes lower depending on other factors (their marital status, employment status, health status, if they have other kids etc). I'm sure there'd be ways to appeal to the government too if your case was the exception as opposed to the rule.

That's a funny rule haha, I would definitely not be comfortable taking my parents to court. Something tells me that wouldn't go over so well.

I have nothing against my parents not paying for school. I've been out of high school for 4 years so OSAP doesn't even consider their income now which is fine. When OSAP didn't cover me, I paid 50% of my schooling + rent, and my parents paid the other 50% to teach me some kind of responsibility for my actions. Now that I'm going back to school for a second program, it's solely my responsibility :). I plan on getting OSAP, but I'll be using it exclusively for its intended purpose.

[uber_shnitz]

That's a funny rule haha, I would definitely not be comfortable taking my parents to court. Something tells me that wouldn't go over so well.

I have nothing against my parents not paying for school. I've been out of high school for 4 years so OSAP doesn't even consider their income now which is fine. When OSAP didn't cover me, I paid 50% of my schooling + rent, and my parents paid the other 50% to teach me some kind of responsibility for my actions. Now that I'm going back to school for a second program, it's solely my responsibility :). I plan on getting OSAP, but I'll be using it exclusively for its intended purpose.

Oh it's definitely something awkward, but I suppose if your parents refuse to pay for something like tuition (assuming you didn't have the means and asked them to help), your relationship mustn't be that great either :razz:

The loans & bursary program is supposed to be for people who cannot afford to pay for it themselves so that's how the government treats it here. If they deem that you and your family can pay for tuition (or a portion of it), they expect you to. Our tuition rates in Quebec are really low so it's a bit less of an issue but even when I went to Ontario (and declared an 8000$ yearly tuition) and that I didn't live with my parents they were really stingy with the loans because my mom had made a lot of money that year (almost 100k) so they only gave me 2.4k for the year. I'm hoping this year with the new policies(due to the student strikes) that I'll be able to get more because I was negative most of last year working part time with rent lol :o

[Syne]

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their recognition in getting published. I should mention that Miss. Shah did contact me for a live interview before writing this article, but I was out of town (fishing in Northern Ontario) and didn't have a chance to reply before this was published yesterday.

I have to admit, while I'm all for transparency and getting the full story, I had to consider the source a bit here. Toronto Sun was clearly angling to fire a shot off at the OSAP program. While the article is not inflammatory per se, it does use my material to inflame their base. The Sun knew that this would be a juicy morsel for their readers, just like I knew it would inflame readers when I posted it. Funny how we both troll but for different reasons. If I had told her the post's purpose was 90% to get a reaction, would it really have mattered? She was going to write the article either way, and the fact that I did end up buying a (used) CG parka does give the headline and teaser some truth.

So take what you will from the article. I found it a rather bland read, but it did at least attempt to cover both sides, even if we all know what angle The Sun was taking here.

[a-tree]

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their recognition in getting published. I should mention that Miss. Shah did contact me for a live interview before writing this article, but I was out of town (fishing in Northern Ontario) and didn't have a chance to reply before this was published yesterday.

I have to admit, while I'm all for transparency and getting the full story, I had to consider the source a bit here. Toronto Sun was clearly angling to fire a shot off at the OSAP program. While the article is not inflammatory per se, it does use my material to inflame their base. The Sun knew that this would be a juicy morsel for their readers, just like I knew it would inflame readers when I posted it. Funny how we both troll but for different reasons. If I had told her the post's purpose was 90% to get a reaction, would it really have mattered? She was going to write the article either way, and the fact that I did end up buying a (used) CG parka does give the headline and teaser some truth.

So take what you will from the article. I found it a rather bland read, but it did at least attempt to cover both sides, even if we all know what angle The Sun was taking here.

If someone quoted me out of context and used it to support whatever it was they were trying to do, I'd be outraged. But you seem rather happy with this 'recognition'.

[steve-0101]

If someone quoted me out of context and used it to support whatever it was they were trying to do, I'd be outraged. But you seem rather happy with this 'recognition'.

Yes, but they're not quoting him out of context. They're quoting an anonymous internet poster named "Syne". So who cares.

[Syne]

I pretty much just ignore everything a-tree says.

There are successful trolls and there are unsuccessful trolls. I refuse to get dragged down by the latter.

[WildWolf]

School is a Hoax. How many times have I said that already on this forum. You are all fools, even the 1% know your fools and I hate those people.

[Ojam]

School is a Hoax. How many times have I said that already on this forum. You are all fools, even the 1% know your fools and I hate those people.

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say you didn't go to school.

[Typhoonz]

School is a Hoax. How many times have I said that already on this forum. You are all fools, even the 1% know your fools and I hate those people.

So how do you suggest people go about being successful in life. Sure you don't have to go to school to be successful, but for the majority of us that's not the case. Please, enlighten us.

[flamez1000]

Why doesn't the money go straight to the college's bank account instead of passing it by the student. Baffles me.

Most scholarships did, went directly to the school. Anything that remained was then refunded to my bank account.


That bugs me too. How hard would it be for the government to have the CC companies help manage the funds by forcing their dispensation via an OSAP card that would track those purchases?

OSAP abuse has been going on forever. Kids are often not good planners. They see money and spend it fast. Maybe it is part of growing up though. One of those life lessons and the government likes it that way.

Me? I got screwed while my friends bought stereos and bikes with their OSAP money. OSAP said I would get squat and my parents said no I had to wait many years and go 100% on my own dime.......tiny fiddles please.

sm

Even though I got WAY more in my first year than I actually needed (cuz of scholarships), I saved it up. Actually, I got so much in scholarships, that even some of my grants/bursaries were reduced. I didn't owe even a cent in loans after first year. In the summer, I worked full time and saved that up too. In second year, I got more scholarships and found a work-study position at school. Hoping to find another one for this summer. I do owe around 3k loan or so now, but I've got enough saved up to pay that off and then some. Not all students are stupid with their money, it all comes down to prioritizing. Graduating debt-free with a good job means more to me right now than having the latest iphone or CG jacket.


School is a Hoax. How many times have I said that already on this forum. You are all fools, even the 1% know your fools and I hate those people.

School is a hoax, but only if you choose a stupid underwater basket-weaving program.

[BornRuff]

Actually funny story here...the government(and therefore the law) states that depending on your parents' income, as their legal child, you are entitled to a given contribution from them to your higher education if you so wish (as long as they declare themselves your parents and that they declare supporting you financially). If they refuse, you can actually take them to court and force them legally to pay you the amount estimated by the government as "parental contribution". It's really weird when you think about it...suing your parents but it's been done in the past. The other option is to have your parents sign a "declaration of non-financial backing" where basically they tell the government that legally they will not support you financially so the government will not take them into account.


Where did you hear this?

[DearSummer]

So how do you suggest people go about being successful in life. Sure you don't have to go to school to be successful, but for the majority of us that's not the case. Please, enlighten us.

I don't agree with the person you quoted, but there are many avenues to financial success other than the typical "go to university and get a degree!" garbage that they cram down kids' throats nowadays. If you think a BA or similar will guarantee you any sort of "good job", you are dillusional.

If you are a risk-taker, start a business. If not, get educated/training in an area that is in-demand by the labour market.

[uber_shnitz]

I don't agree with the person you quoted, but there are many avenues to financial success other than the typical "go to university and get a degree!" garbage that they cram down kids' throats nowadays. If you think a BA or similar will guarantee you any sort of "good job", you are dillusional.

If you are a risk-taker, start a business. If not, get educated/training in an area that is in-demand by the labour market.

His post was saying that it's not the only way sure, but it's the "safest" and most surefire way. It's like saying you don't have ot get a professional degree to be successful, but it certainly helps your chances if you're a Med student vs a Liberal Arts one.

[Typhoonz]

I don't agree with the person you quoted, but there are many avenues to financial success other than the typical "go to university and get a degree!" garbage that they cram down kids' throats nowadays. If you think a BA or similar will guarantee you any sort of "good job", you are dillusional.

If you are a risk-taker, start a business. If not, get educated/training in an area that is in-demand by the labour market.

It's not that easy to just start a business... You need a good idea, a plan, etc... I would love to start my own business, but haven't got the slightest idea what that business would be.

[DearSummer]

It's not that easy to just start a business... You need a good idea, a plan, etc... I would love to start my own business, but haven't got the slightest idea what that business would be.

...

If it was easy, everybody would do it. That's why entrepreneurs are the lifeblood of the economy. They are the risk-takers, the innovators, etc.

The simplest way I've found to come up with business ideas is to identify an unserved or underserved need and come up with a better way of meeting that need. You probably come across underserved needs at least a few times a day.

[Typhoonz]

...

If it was easy, everybody would do it. That's why entrepreneurs are the lifeblood of the economy. They are the risk-takers, the innovators, etc.

The simplest way I've found to come up with business ideas is to identify an unserved or underserved need and come up with a better way of meeting that need. You probably come across underserved needs at least a few times a day.

That's very true. I agree with you there.

[belowzeros]

Lol wow, considering that was an intentional troll thread, can't believe Toronto Sun actually quoted.

Good job Syne.


LOL Syne you're also my hero. Trolling a newspaper is a great achievement. I read your post when it went up and I was laughing pretty hard. Now the joke has gone to a new level :)

[WildWolf]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say you didn't go to school.
You assume because I say 'school is a hoax' I didn't go to school, do realize how idiotic that sounds, don't you, maybe you don't, oh well !

The problem is everyone is too dependent on the school system, no one takes the initiative to try to learn them-self. If school was a guarantee as it maybe was many, many years ago you wouldn't have what is in the article posted in the beginning of this thread. Those who graduated would have work, that is not the case, not here in Canada and not in the US. If a millionaire says that school is a hoax (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57436775/dropping-out-is-college-worth-the-cost/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel), what convincing do you need, mom and dad, your favorite teacher ? Wake up.

[BornRuff]

You assume because I say 'school is a hoax' I didn't go to school, do realize how idiotic that sounds, don't you, maybe you don't, oh well !

The problem is everyone is too dependent on the school system, no one takes the initiative to try to learn them-self. If school was a guarantee as it maybe was many, many years ago you wouldn't have what is in the article posted in the beginning of this thread. Those who graduated would have work, that is not the case, not here in Canada and not in the US. If a millionaire says that school is a hoax (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57436775/dropping-out-is-college-worth-the-cost/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel), what convincing do you need, mom and dad, your favorite teacher ? Wake up.

Most people are getting jobs after university, just not as many right now. It makes sense that when the job market is tough, those without experience will suffer the most. Why hire someone with no experience if you can often hire a proven worker for the same price these days?

You are misinterpreting the meaning of that article you use there though. First, he says that education is not worth the money, not that it is a hoax, and he specifically mentions the for profit universities.

[eudaii]

hey syne i'm so happy for you you're famous

[Agafaba]

You assume because I say 'school is a hoax' I didn't go to school, do realize how idiotic that sounds, don't you, maybe you don't, oh well !

The problem is everyone is too dependent on the school system, no one takes the initiative to try to learn them-self. If school was a guarantee as it maybe was many, many years ago you wouldn't have what is in the article posted in the beginning of this thread. Those who graduated would have work, that is not the case, not here in Canada and not in the US. If a millionaire says that school is a hoax (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57436775/dropping-out-is-college-worth-the-cost/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel), what convincing do you need, mom and dad, your favorite teacher ? Wake up.

I tried to put down that I was a self taught physicist but I guess some employers are just real sticklers for the whole education thing.

[Bookpreviews]

lol the sun was trolled.

Your blog.....yawwwnnnnn.....!

[Rainne]

...

If it was easy, everybody would do it. That's why entrepreneurs are the lifeblood of the economy. They are the risk-takers, the innovators, etc.

The simplest way I've found to come up with business ideas is to identify an unserved or underserved need and come up with a better way of meeting that need. You probably come across underserved needs at least a few times a day.

That's because entrepreneurs CREATE jobs..not take one.

[TheRed]

Used OSAP money to go to Las Vegas and blew it all on casinos and strip clubs.

[Typhoonz]

Used OSAP money to go to Las Vegas and blew it all on casinos and strip clubs.

Lol, nice.

[WildWolf]

Most people are getting jobs after university, just not as many right now. It makes sense that when the job market is tough, those without experience will suffer the most. Why hire someone with no experience if you can often hire a proven worker for the same price these days?

You are misinterpreting the meaning of that article you use there though. First, he says that education is not worth the money, not that it is a hoax, and he specifically mentions the for profit universities.

If you want to be a Doctor, Nurse, a Dentist etc, school is needed, but if you can teach yourself very well, and I mean very well, I think you should be given an opportunity to take whatever tests they have and if you pass, given your license. For most other professions/careers etc school really is not important, experience is more important then school, and with that you run into, I hate to say the phrase cause I think it's stupid, Catch22.

[Ojam]

You assume because I say 'school is a hoax' I didn't go to school, do realize how idiotic that sounds, don't you, maybe you don't, oh well !


No, I assume you didn't go to school because you don't know the difference between your and you're.

[WildWolf]

No, I assume you didn't go to school because you don't know the difference between your and you're.

What are you talking about ?

[Ojam]

What are you talking about ?

Exactly.

[BornRuff]

If you want to be a Doctor, Nurse, a Dentist etc, school is needed, but if you can teach yourself very well, and I mean very well, I think you should be given an opportunity to take whatever tests they have and if you pass, given your license. For most other professions/careers etc school really is not important, experience is more important then school, and with that you run into, I hate to say the phrase cause I think it's stupid, Catch22.

You want a self taught doctor working on you?

Doctors spend years training for a reason. A few tests can't replace that.

Education and experience are both important in any line of work.

[WildWolf]

Exactly.

Good you realize.

[WildWolf]

You want a self taught doctor working on you?

Doctors spend years training for a reason. A few tests can't replace that.

Education and experience are both important in any line of work.

I said if he is self-taught and takes a few tests and passes, sure I'd have him work on me, I didn't say if he doesn't have a license, did I ?

[CRAZYBUBBA]

I would NEVER go to a doctor that was self taught. I'm glad that it's difficult to get into medical school. I don't want just anyone working on me.

[BornRuff]

I said if he is self-taught and takes a few tests and passes, sure I'd have him work on me, I didn't say if he doesn't have a license, did I ?

Medical school is not just passing a few tests. It is easy to cram for a few tests, but the information doesn't necessarily stick with you.

I never said anything about a license, I think the idea of having a self taught doctor working on me is bad.

[WildWolf]

Do you trust you doctor?

[shannn]

I would NEVER go to a doctor that was self taught. I'm glad that it's difficult to get into medical school. I don't want just anyone working on me.

lol, make sure you don't go to a doctor that graduated from McMaster then :lol:

[_Allan_]

lol, make sure you don't go to a doctor that graduated from McMaster then :lol:

Ontario College of Physicians does their own teeing of Doctors and schools, so McMaster can't be a self taught school.

[BornRuff]

Do you trust you doctor?

More so than someone who didn't go to medical school.

[shannn]

Ontario College of Physicians does their own teeing of Doctors and schools, so McMaster can't be a self taught school.

lol, if only people knew what they did in the first 1.5 years of their curriculum and how grades are given...

[Mysticdragon]

You assume because I say 'school is a hoax' I didn't go to school, do realize how idiotic that sounds, don't you, maybe you don't, oh well !

The problem is everyone is too dependent on the school system, no one takes the initiative to try to learn them-self. If school was a guarantee as it maybe was many, many years ago you wouldn't have what is in the article posted in the beginning of this thread. Those who graduated would have work, that is not the case, not here in Canada and not in the US. If a millionaire says that school is a hoax (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57436775/dropping-out-is-college-worth-the-cost/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel), what convincing do you need, mom and dad, your favorite teacher ? Wake up.


I don't know about you but I don't want to go to the hospital and be treated by a self-taught doctor XD

EDIT: oops, just read the rest of this thread and saw that several already made that statement ;)

In all honesty though, I do think that many of the arts programs could be self taught and don't really require a full degree. (Philosophy, language studies, art/art history, etc..)

[BornRuff]

I don't know about you but I don't want to go to the hospital and be treated by a self-taught doctor XD

EDIT: oops, just read the rest of this thread and saw that several already made that statement ;)

In all honesty though, I do think that many of the arts programs could be self taught and don't really require a full degree. (Philosophy, language studies, art/art history, etc..)

I don't know how the arts programs could really be self taught and then tested in any sort of meaningful way, since the real learning outcome is more about process than a specific body of knowledge. I guess you could test writing skills, reading comprehension, research skills, etc, but I doubt many people could really learn these skills as well on their own as they do with regular classes, assignments, and feedback, over numerous years.

If the point is that university is not for everyone, that is quite true. Stats show that a university education is still very valuable to those who obtain one though, actually increasing in value.

I know many people will say "WTF? Getting a university education is worth soo much less now that so many people have one", but when compared to the jobs that people without an education can get, the gap is actually increasingly large. It is not so much that salaries for jobs that require a degree are increasing, it is that the opportunities for those without a degree or specialized training are getting worse and worse. Employers are demanding a degree for more and more jobs these days.

[uber_shnitz]

The main issue is that University is now a business, it's not an education institution for the most part. You go to University not to learn, but to get a degree to lead to a job. That's how most people see University (or arguably the education system as a whole). This is only getting more true as the costs of tuition rise and the system becomes mroe and more capitalistic.

Most liberal arts degrees were put into place at Unievrsities way back in the early days as educational vocations moreso than carreer paths which is why lots of them are considered "useless" by the people who view University as a stepping stone to a carreer. The job opporutunities are low because these degrees were not really meant to be carreer path vocations to begin with. One could argue these "educational vocation" degrees should be either removed, moved (to another system) or unsubsidized, however I'd be more prone to say the entire University system should be rehauled as it's not the same as before. yes, academia is still a part of University (and a very large one depending on the Uni), but nowadays it's mostly a business, where it's about making money either through students or research.

[poedua]

hey syne i'm so happy for you you're famous

I think you mean infamous.

;)

[kanaha21]

Fail! You would be totally wrong on the OSAP max, etc. :facepalm:

My mistake - the maximum grant/loan amounts for a typical two-term academic year are: $12240 + $1600 tuition rebate + $150 textbook grant = $13990.
If you go over your limit substantially and are still in need the millennium tuition reimbursement kicks in - but I don't know the criteria for this so I left it at extreme financial need. Everything else is quite relevant.

"Plus, for that two-term academic year, your annual debt is capped at $7,300, even if you get more in loans."

[anyasok]

OSAP is a fraud to begin with so jumping at the opportunity to fraud it back is just proper revenge

[WildWolf]

The main issue is that University is now a business, it's not an education institution for the most part. You go to University not to learn, but to get a degree to lead to a job. That's how most people see University (or arguably the education system as a whole). This is only getting more true as the costs of tuition rise and the system becomes mroe and more capitalistic.

Most liberal arts degrees were put into place at Unievrsities way back in the early days as educational vocations moreso than carreer paths which is why lots of them are considered "useless" by the people who view University as a stepping stone to a carreer. The job opporutunities are low because these degrees were not really meant to be carreer path vocations to begin with. One could argue these "educational vocation" degrees should be either removed, moved (to another system) or unsubsidized, however I'd be more prone to say the entire University system should be rehauled as it's not the same as before. yes, academia is still a part of University (and a very large one depending on the Uni), but nowadays it's mostly a business, where it's about making money either through students or research.

When you go to University or College. You are paying for your piece of paper, then telling everyone HIRE ME, HIRE ME. I need to pay off this piece of paper. I don't know if any of you were aware of Diploma Mills in the US where people were paying for legitimate degrees without going to school. The US Government didn't like that they were loosing money, and tried to shut them all down. Regardless there are no Jobs (http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1183097--nearly-one-million-young-canadians-not-at-school-or-work-statscan-says?bn=1#article) for most youth, especially young males under 35.


Young men were having more trouble than women finding jobs. The less educated and unmarried were also more likely to be out of work.

[BornRuff]

When you go to University or College. You are paying for your piece of paper, then telling everyone HIRE ME, HIRE ME. I need to pay off this piece of paper. I don't know if any of you were aware of Diploma Mills in the US where people were paying for legitimate degrees without going to school. The US Government didn't like that they were loosing money, and tried to shut them all down. Regardless there are no Jobs (http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1183097--nearly-one-million-young-canadians-not-at-school-or-work-statscan-says?bn=1#article) for most youth, especially young males under 35.

Lol, no, you are paying for an education. The degree just represents that you have completed that particular educational program.

Getting a diploma without actually completing that course of study is fraud, which is why those places get shut down.

[uber_shnitz]

When you go to University or College. You are paying for your piece of paper, then telling everyone HIRE ME, HIRE ME. I need to pay off this piece of paper. I don't know if any of you were aware of Diploma Mills in the US where people were paying for legitimate degrees without going to school. The US Government didn't like that they were loosing money, and tried to shut them all down. Regardless there are no Jobs (http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1183097--nearly-one-million-young-canadians-not-at-school-or-work-statscan-says?bn=1#article) for most youth, especially young males under 35.

To a certain extent, I agree with you that higher education is overrated and more importantly overcharged (especially in the US). I disagree with primary school but that's not the topic so we won't go there.

Anyhow, I do agree with you that the degree itself isn't usually what lands you the job so you're right there. Getting a job is more about networking and finding the people who are hiring. "It's not what you know but who you know" so in that sense you're correct. However, for most people, forming those networking connections (which are what lead to jobs) is best done via a 3rd party like a University. Yeah, lots of people meet and network through various other tertiary activities (ex: religious gatherings, hobbies, charity etc), but for most people, the easiest and most direct way to meet and network with people in a designated field you want to be hired in is at school.

[Andrew4Life]

Financial assistance and OSAP is in general unfair.
People who save their money get nothing, people who spend all their money get free money

I have a friend who "had no money" because she had to use the money she made from her job to help their parents pay down the mortgage on a huge house they bought. OSAP didn't give her enough(over $11k = $7k loan + ~$4k free money), so she then went to the UTAPS (UofT financial aid) office and said she need $1500 more because she didn't have enough money to pay for her tuition and they gave it to her free.

I have another friend who has 2 working parents, he worked one year but spent all his money, other years he just didn't work, claimed he had no money, so OSAP gave him $7k loan + free money pretty much every year.

There should definitely be more incentive for students to make their own money.
Otherwise they just whine and complain and we all end up paying for these spoiled students to go to school.

[WildWolf]

To a certain extent, I agree with you that higher education is overrated and more importantly overcharged (especially in the US). I disagree with primary school but that's not the topic so we won't go there.

Anyhow, I do agree with you that the degree itself isn't usually what lands you the job so you're right there. Getting a job is more about networking and finding the people who are hiring. "It's not what you know but who you know" so in that sense you're correct. However, for most people, forming those networking connections (which are what lead to jobs) is best done via a 3rd party like a University. Yeah, lots of people meet and network through various other tertiary activities (ex: religious gatherings, hobbies, charity etc), but for most people, the easiest and most direct way to meet and network with people in a designated field you want to be hired in is at school.

Then University is a Social Environment, you pay to socialize in hopes to land a Job, it is awkward. Why can't anyone including those not enrolled just meet in a big auditorium three times a month and talk and interact ? I know 48% of employers use referrals to hire new people, I have mentioned it other threads that this is a flawed system to follow. Networking is hard, I myself am trying to sell my services and I know some people, none can help me as they don't know how to with what I'm trying to sell, so that is why I question networking, because I'm networking to sell my skill to make income, if I wanted to network to land another Job, whatever it may be, these people may come in to the situation.

What if these people know other people they would rather give an open position too, where does networking help me or others in a similar situation ? Networking is basically, comes down to making a friend in what you both can relate to. And FaceBook doesn't count as a friend.

[WildWolf]

Financial assistance and OSAP is in general unfair.
People who save their money get nothing, people who spend all their money get free money

I have a friend who "had no money" because she had to use the money she made from her job to help their parents pay down the mortgage on a huge house they bought. OSAP didn't give her enough(over $11k = $7k loan + ~$4k free money), so she then went to the UTAPS (UofT financial aid) office and said she need $1500 more because she didn't have enough money to pay for her tuition and they gave it to her free.

I have another friend who has 2 working parents, he worked one year but spent all his money, other years he just didn't work, claimed he had no money, so OSAP gave him $7k loan + free money pretty much every year.

There should definitely be more incentive for students to make their own money.
Otherwise they just whine and complain and we all end up paying for these spoiled students to go to school.

Then alot do abuse the system. What about revoking your diploma if you don't pay it back ? You get 3 -5 years depending on the amount you owe, if you don't pay it back, the government can legally take your diploma away, rendering you without a post-secondary education.

[uber_shnitz]

Then University is a Social Environment, you pay to socialize in hopes to land a Job, it is awkward. Why can't anyone including those not enrolled just meet in a big auditorium three times a month and talk and interact ? I know 48% of employers use referrals to hire new people, I have mentioned it other threads that this is a flawed system to follow. Networking is hard, I myself am trying to sell my services and I know some people, none can help me as they don't know how to with what I'm trying to sell, so that is why I question networking, because I'm networking to sell my skill to make income, if I wanted to network to land another Job, whatever it may be, these people may come in to the situation.

What if these people know other people they would rather give an open position too, where does networking help me or others in a similar situation ? Networking is basically, comes down to making a friend in what you both can relate to. And FaceBook doesn't count as a friend.

Pretty much yes, University is mostly an opportunity place, not so much an education place.

Like it or not, most of society is based off social relations. You accord importance to people in your life based on your social interactions with them. The workplace(current and future) is no different.

The reason what you're suggesting doesn't work is the same reason people tend to look down on online dating, arranged marriages or blind dates and whatnot: people don't like being pressured/structured into social relationships.

[WildWolf]

Pretty much yes, University is mostly an opportunity place, not so much an education place.

Like it or not, most of society is based off social relations. You accord importance to people in your life based on your social interactions with them. The workplace(current and future) is no different.

The reason what you're suggesting doesn't work is the same reason people tend to look down on online dating, arranged marriages or blind dates and whatnot: people don't like being pressured/structured into social relationships.

Right on target.