CA Unification - Against?

[bythehour]

It seems like quite a few CAs are against merger. This group is getting some buzz for the ICAO council elections.

www.ontariocavote.com

What are everyone's thoughts?

[bruizeman]

I don't think RFD really has an opinion on that topic.

[moofur]

CGAs also just posted that it is their legal opinion and the opinion of CMA Ontario that an there can only be an amalgamation if there is a binding 2/3 vote by members of all three bodies. They go on to call out the ICAO on them not acknowledging this requirement and the fact that "The CPA initiative is no longer about unification."

Quite a statement. Gotta say, CGA leadership's got guts.


http://visioncga.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/CEO-Merger-Update-May-31.pdf

[rruslim]

These 8 candidates are very intelligent, dedicated and hard working. They are committed to a more democratic ICAO. The merger concept is being shoved down people's throats. This has to end.

[moofur]

CMA Ontario's perspective:

http://www.electricvillages.com/clients/CMA/June%202012/message.html

"The first was the process required to legally merge the three organizations in Ontario – and particularly, the obligation to obtain approval from the membership. Based on research and a subsequent opinion provided by our legal counsel, it became very clear that to effect a legal merger in Ontario, an affirmative vote would be required from the members of each of the accounting bodies. Two-thirds of votes cast by the members in favour would have to be achieved. The Office of the Attorney General of Ontario informed the leadership of the three accounting bodies that while the Attorney General would support the "unification initiative," each body must do what is required under the law.

Some discussion was held between the organizations regarding alternative structures including the possibility of a joint venture to merge organizational operations followed by a request to the Attorney General to mandate a merger on the members via legislation. In light of the clear legal requirements, any mechanism that attempts to circumvent the obligation to hold a membership vote was and is unacceptable to the Board of Directors of CMA Ontario."

[Terrific_Deals2k8]

Personally, I do not support the merger because it is no longer a democratic process and it's becoming a real joke! The ICAO and ICABC are simply trying to brainwash its members and creating propagada (i.e. fear of govt mandate/legislation) to force the unilateral merger.

Not a CA yet (still a CA candidate), but we all know that branding is a major part of this merger, as well as the CEO/Board's desire to create a "legacy". Although I have interacted with numerous CMAs and CGAs who are very competent, the general public still values a CA for their experience and knowledge. I wouldnt want to have 3 years of rigorous/time-consuming work and study go down the drain and have the designation diluted.

[the_fm]

I wouldnt want to have 3 years of rigorous/time-consuming work and study go down the drain and have the designation diluted.

:facepalm:

wow. talk about perpetuating the myth that CA candidates are full of themselves and know jack s*** of other designations

[Terrific_Deals2k8]

Haha, so you think the SLP program is difficult? Just some weekly assignments and a board report... Or maybe your CGA designation is more difficult than the UFE. Give me a break, lol! :facepalm:

After graduating from university, I had already completed the equivalent of Level 4 in the CGA program (only required the PA levels and final exam). Similarly, I was given the go ahead to skip the AP exam and start the Stragetic Leadership Program, since all my university credits were accepted. ;)

How do I know all of this? Hmm, probably because I did my research and actually applied to all three programs and received acceptance letters. Btw, when I started the CASB program, you couldn't have gone beyond Module 2 without being hired by a CATO, but that's changed recently...


:facepalm:

wow. talk about perpetuating the myth that CA candidates are full of themselves and know jack s*** of other designations

[Terrific_Deals2k8]

Again, I have full respect of all designations since I've interacted and requested information from competent CGAs and CMAs. But in all seriousness, you'd have to be delusional to believe CMAs or CGA is more difficult than the CA.

1) I wonder why the unification guideline requires other designations to adopt the CA/CGA module & final exam approach.

2) in terms of technical material, CA > CGA > CMA. I actually had the liberty of working in industry (managers was a CMA and director was a CGA) before transitioning to the CA program. Both individuals were great people with lots of knowledge and experience. However, the manager advised me to pursue the CA program because it had more opportunities.

When he hired me he said, "I originally was in the CGA program but just couldnt pass level 3 and some other courses, so I decided to pursue the CMA and completed the program without a hitch. Even though it required quite a bit of work/effort".

Another story is our current office had a few individuals who couldnt pass the UFE within the 3 attempts and couldn't obtain the CA. So they decided to move on and enrolled in the CGA program. Within a year, the lady was able to acquire her CGA designation. She was also a very experienced individual, but it shows that those who couldn't pass the UFE usually will pass the CGA exams without a problem.

This is commonly known within the accounting industry. That's also why you can find a lot more exit opportunities for CAs. That's why a bulge bracket/investment bank or management consulting firm will quite often hire a CA, as an associate/analyst or junior consultant, but almost never hire a CMA or CGA in a similar role.

[doberman_baby]

That's the problem in Canada, each body thinks itself as the better designation. With this type of mentality, no merger is going to happen unless it's forced down the members throats.
The way to work on a merger is to have equal number of representation from each of the 3 associations and not a body dominated by any one body.

[komal]

That's the problem in Canada, each body thinks itself as the better designation. With this type of mentality, no merger is going to happen unless it's forced down the members throats.
The way to work on a merger is to have equal number of representation from each of the 3 associations and not a body dominated by any one body.

At the national level at least, it isn't a merger of equals. The CICA writes the handbook, created CPAB, donates the funding and manpower to run PSAB, has the most representation among designations on those boards etc.

At the national level there isn't any reason why CAs wouldn't have greater representation.

[NewBean]

If your female colleague were in Ontario, she had to go through the AP1 which is only 12 hours exam ( 6 hrs + 6 hrs).


Again, I have full respect of all designations since I've interacted and requested information from competent CGAs and CMAs. But in all seriousness, you'd have to be delusional to believe CMAs or CGA is more difficult than the CA.

1) I wonder why the unification guideline requires other designations to adopt the CA/CGA module & final exam approach.

2) in terms of technical material, CA > CGA > CMA. I actually had the liberty of working in industry (managers was a CMA and director was a CGA) before transitioning to the CA program. Both individuals were great people with lots of knowledge and experience. However, the manager advised me to pursue the CA program because it had more opportunities.

When he hired me he said, "I originally was in the CGA program but just couldnt pass level 3 and some other courses, so I decided to pursue the CMA and completed the program without a hitch. Even though it required quite a bit of work/effort".

Another story is our current office had a few individuals who couldnt pass the UFE within the 3 attempts and couldn't obtain the CA. So they decided to move on and enrolled in the CGA program. Within a year, the lady was able to acquire her CGA designation. She was also a very experienced individual, but it shows that those who couldn't pass the UFE usually will pass the CGA exams without a problem.

This is commonly known within the accounting industry. That's also why you can find a lot more exit opportunities for CAs. That's why a bulge bracket/investment bank or management consulting firm will quite often hire a CA, as an associate/analyst or junior consultant, but almost never hire a CMA or CGA in a similar role.

[NewBean]

You meant PACE level electives + PA1 & PA2 exams.


Haha, so you think the SLP program is difficult? Just some weekly assignments and a board report... Or maybe your CGA designation is more difficult than the UFE. Give me a break, lol! :facepalm:

After graduating from university, I had already completed the equivalent of Level 4 in the CGA program (only required the PA levels and final exam). Similarly, I was given the go ahead to skip the AP exam and start the Stragetic Leadership Program, since all my university credits were accepted. ;)

How do I know all of this? Hmm, probably because I did my research and actually applied to all three programs and received acceptance letters. Btw, when I started the CASB program, you couldn't have gone beyond Module 3 without being hired by a CATO, but that's changed recently...

[moofur]

For those who wonder why there is a majority of CAs that are against this merger, here is some food for thought:


1) Provincial polls indicate that a significant majority (90%) of CGAs/CMAs support the merger. While for CAs, there is significant opposition with lots of grass roots movements. That in itself is a red flag.

2) CAs are better paid on average.

3) You will see job postings that request for CA only, as opposed to the other two designations. Even though it is true that there are job postings that ask for CMA/CGA with the exclusion of CAs, if you ask the headhunter/hiring manager, they will most often tell you that the reason is because the job itself does not pay enough to attract CA candidates.

4) You ask 100 CAs and I am confident that not one (ok, maybe one or two) will tell you that they ever thought about or aspire to be a CMA/CGA. You ask CMAs/CGAs the same question and many of them will tell you that if they could realistically do it (ie. take time off, etc.), they would try to attain their CA designation. There are also many examples where CMAs/CGAs attain the CA designation after, whereas the number of CAs that do the same vice versa is very very minimal.

5) Go to any business/accounting program and ask the students who are at the top of their class in the accounting stream. 90%+ will tell you that their designation of choice is to become a CA.

Those are just some of the key points. I'm sure people can point out many others. It's not about being arrogant or condescending, but facts are facts, and there is a reason why CAs do not want to be lumped together with their other accounting counterparts.

[Terrific_Deals2k8]

You meant PACE level electives + PA1 & PA2 exams.

Thanks for the correction, yes, I forgot it was PACE levels (choose 2 streams I believe) and then the 2 PA exams.

[Terrific_Deals2k8]

At the national level at least, it isn't a merger of equals. The CICA writes the handbook, created CPAB, donates the funding and manpower to run PSAB, has the most representation among designations on those boards etc.

At the national level there isn't any reason why CAs wouldn't have greater representation.

A major part of the statement is true. I'm not going to discount any input from CMAs or CGAs, but it seems the handbook/guidelines have always been created by CICA.

[thestar99]

I agree CGA/CMA must make their academic portion significantly harder than it is now. They must also make it a requirement for anyone signing up for the program must have mandatory 24 months work experience in accounting before they can sign up. Of course they wont do it since it would diminish their membership revenue.

I made a decision to sign up for CGA three years later I am done all the courses but the work experience is impossible to meet.
I have the experience but cant be backed someone with designation making my experience invalid in front of the CGA clowns They require someone with a designation to sign off on your experience which is a joke considering lot of small and medium companies do not have manager with those qualifications. CMA is not like that which makes it easier to obtain. If I could re do I would have go for CGA.

[NewBean]

What would you recommend CGA Ontaio/Canada to make its academic portion significantly harder than it is now?


I agree CGA/CMA must make their academic portion significantly harder than it is now. They must also make it a requirement for anyone signing up for the program must have mandatory 24 months work experience in accounting before they can sign up. Of course they wont do it since it would diminish their membership revenue.

I made a decision to sign up for CGA three years later I am done all the courses but the work experience is impossible to meet.
I have the experience but cant be backed someone with designation making my experience invalid in front of the CGA clowns They require someone with a designation to sign off on your experience which is a joke considering lot of small and medium companies do not have manager with those qualifications. CMA is not like that which makes it easier to obtain. If I could re do I would have go for CGA.

[rapashoo]

They require someone with a designation to sign off on your experience which is a joke considering lot of small and medium companies do not have manager with those qualifications. CMA is not like that which makes it easier to obtain. If I could re do I would have go for CGA.

Strongly disagree with your information there. CMA Ontario does request its members to have the designated CMA's reference (i.e. signature). This is a must. CMA also require 51 credit hours for prerequisite courses. This is same as CA's academic requirement.(Of course, course composition is little difference becuase CMA focuses on management accounting side) In my opinion, it is already pretty damn hard as it is now.

[moofur]

^

I actually will have to disagree. A major part of the curriculum is group projects and a board presentation at the end, meaning that there is a potential for free riders. (And it does happen)

To me, the entire CMA curriculum seems more like a crash course BBA/BComm than an accounting designation... but that's just my opinion.

[nasa25]

In the real world, ones competence/connections/ability to sell oneself is what dictates career trajectory. The argument about which designation is harder to obtain or worth more is almost always championed by students/freshly minted grads.

[Sammmy]

^

I actually will have to disagree. A major part of the curriculum is group projects and a board presentation at the end, meaning that there is a potential for free riders. (And it does happen)

To me, the entire CMA curriculum seems more like a crash course BBA/BComm than an accounting designation... but that's just my opinion.

So when the CAs study for their case exams, they study on their own/go to prep courses.

When the CMAs study for their case exam, CMA requires the students to submit their case for marking/debrief and feedbacks.

and the "major part of the curriculum" you are referring to is the final year. This is supposed to simulate a project team making a business decision, submit a written case, and defend your decision in front of the board.

Free riders? report them. And by the time they reach the group case portion, the students have already obtained the necessary university course credits, passed the entrance exam, and passed the case exam. I'm sure most people who reach that stage are at least competent/motivated...

[moofur]

In the real world, ones competence/connections/ability to sell oneself is what dictates career trajectory. The argument about which designation is harder to obtain or worth more is almost always championed by students/freshly minted grads.

It's easy to pull out a cliche and tell that to a 10 year old. You are kidding yourself if you don't think connections or letters behind your name count in the real world. By that logic, it really doesn't matter if you go to Harvard or Joe Blow university. By your logic, why do we even have degrees, designations, and qualifications? Everyone's competence should be dictated by an exam for every job interview such that candidates are not judged by their colour, background, alma mater, etc.

Unfortunately we don't live in a Utopia.

[nasa25]

It's easy to pull out a cliche and tell that to a 10 year old. You are kidding yourself if you don't think connections or letters behind your name count in the real world. By that logic, it really doesn't matter if you go to Harvard or Joe Blow university. By your logic, why do we even have degrees, designations, and qualifications? Everyone's competence should be dictated by an exam for every job interview such that candidates are not judged by their colour, background, alma mater, etc.

Unfortunately we don't live in a Utopia.

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Of course having, for example, a Harvard MBA will be a major selling point in ones value proposition. But, as I said, those are outliers.

And I'm not comparing not having a designation at all versus having one. If you have an accounting designation (CA, CMA, CGA) you've shown that you're fairly competent (for the most part - there are exceptions here as well). It's disparaging to see that the CA superiority complex is alive and well.

[komal]

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Of course having, for example, a Harvard MBA will be a major selling point in ones value proposition. But, as I said, those are outliers.

And I'm not comparing not having a designation at all versus having one. If you have an accounting designation (CA, CMA, CGA) you've shown that you're fairly competent (for the most part - there are exceptions here as well). It's disparaging to see that the CA superiority complex is alive and well.

He didn't talk about CAs being superior to any other designation.

What is the point in taking it to CA vs CMA/CGA? Why do you need to end it with such a petty comment?

Just leave that stuff out of this discussion.

[nasa25]

He didn't talk about CAs being superior to any other designation.

What is the point in taking it to CA vs CMA/CGA? Why do you need to end it with such a petty comment?

Just leave that stuff out of this discussion.

That is the discussion. It's bickering about which program is harder/more prestigious. Saying that a 'CMA seems more like a crash course BBA rather than an accounting designation' is an attempt to discount the CMA designation.

Despite the potential for value, these types of threads never deliver.

[komal]

That is the discussion. It's bickering about which program is harder/more prestigious. Saying that a 'CMA seems more like a crash course BBA rather than an accounting designation' is an attempt to discount the CMA designation.

Despite the potential for value, these types of threads never deliver.

I see, you were responding to his other comment as well, I was confused because what you quoted didn't contain anything saying that the CA was superior.

[thestar99]

Strongly disagree with your information there. CMA Ontario does request its members to have the designated CMA's reference (i.e. signature). This is a must. CMA also require 51 credit hours for prerequisite courses. This is same as CA's academic requirement.(Of course, course composition is little difference becuase CMA focuses on management accounting side) In my opinion, it is already pretty damn hard as it is now.

Lot of people I know just got their buddies and family friend to sign off on it. CGa requires your experience to validated by your direct supervisor who is requirsed to be designated which is a joke not all the companies top individuals have designation. If it were like CMA my work experience would have been signed off by someone without designation and would have gotten my buddies to sign off on it.

I dislike cga because all my hard work is invalid because my manager is not designated

[champdood]

In the real world, ones competence/connections/ability to sell oneself is what dictates career trajectory. The argument about which designation is harder to obtain or worth more is almost always championed by students/freshly minted grads.

This, although I have seen some older guys complaining that they'll "only" be a CA eventually and no one will tell them apart on face. But they're worried about public perception, not their peers.

I know I won't be out on an audit with a CMA the day after this goes through, who was suddenly hired despite their complete lack of any qualifications, or that if I go for a CFO position one day they'll look at me exactly the same as a CMA from a few years ago. The CA in itself is marketing, the work we've done is what matters and how well we can push that forward. I've worked with a CGA much more skilled than I am and he was rewarded for it, but that's because he has been around longer. No one cared about what his designation was, they cared more about the wealth of tax knowledge he had and his ability to whip a team of people into shape.

If they're good enough to be at the same level as me they'll be there, there's no faking your stupid way through a CMA and suddenly becoming a manager at a former-CA firm. And if you can, props to you, you're bloody convincing.

[Krupo]

Free riders? report them. And by the time they reach the group case portion, the students have already obtained the necessary university course credits, passed the entrance exam, and passed the case exam. I'm sure most people who reach that stage are at least competent/motivated...

That's a naively optimistic way of dealing with free riders. The problem is that they ARE competent enough - to slack of in a manner that they CAN'T be reported, and yet you and the other hard-working CMA candidate have to deal with that person either being a drama queen or useless, depending on the specifics of the situation. While the group dynamic of "dealing with" an unproductive group member is no doubt a valuable life lesson, it's really a waste of one's time when trying to pass an important career milestone. I've seen/heard many stories of this happening.

[Terrific_Deals2k8]

That's a naively optimistic way of dealing with free riders. The problem is that they ARE competent enough - to slack of in a manner that they CAN'T be reported, and yet you and the other hard-working CMA candidate have to deal with that person either being a drama queen or useless, depending on the specifics of the situation. While the group dynamic of "dealing with" an unproductive group member is no doubt a valuable life lesson, it's really a waste of one's time when trying to pass an important career milestone. I've seen/heard many stories of this happening.

Nice blog, I'll be writing the oh so sweet UFE :facepalm: this fall, sigh (crunch time)... Glad I saw your signature! :D

[Brenren]

Lot of people I know just got their buddies and family friend to sign off on it. CGa requires your experience to validated by your direct supervisor who is requirsed to be designated which is a joke not all the companies top individuals have designation. If it were like CMA my work experience would have been signed off by someone without designation and would have gotten my buddies to sign off on it.

I dislike cga because all my hard work is invalid because my manager is not designated

If no internal designated accountant is available then you can use an external designated accountant and that accountant can be a CGA, CMA, or CA.

[Krupo]

Nice blog, I'll be writing the oh so sweet UFE :facepalm: this fall, sigh (crunch time)... Glad I saw your signature! :D

Hope you're enjoying your newfound freedom now!

[bbraganz]

Hope you're enjoying your newfound freedom now!

Freedom? The UFE study break is the best summer you will have compared to the next 3 years of ***** that you have to deal with before you qualify.

And no one is free until November 30th anyway. For Terrific_Deals2k8 it could very well turn out to be a 6 day UFE

[Krupo]

Freedom? The UFE study break is the best summer you will have compared to the next 3 years of ***** that you have to deal with before you qualify.

And no one is free until November 30th anyway. For Terrific_Deals2k8 it could very well turn out to be a 6 day UFE

Meh, if you use the UFE study break properly and don't trip up on some very bad luck, you'll have hit it on the first shot. Many repeat writers I coached had something or other go off the rails while preparing the first (few) times around, leading to the need to repeat.

Nothing like blissful ignorance to feel free - Sept-early-November are a time to ignore those doubts and hope for the best. Odds are you probably made it through, so not point in stressing.

Also, the vacation you take once you know you've pased the UFE >>>> UFE study break summer. ;)

[komal]

Freedom? The UFE study break is the best summer you will have compared to the next 3 years of ***** that you have to deal with before you qualify.

And no one is free until November 30th anyway. For Terrific_Deals2k8 it could very well turn out to be a 6 day UFE
Yup, its a nice summer break. You work but not that hard. But if you're a CASB student you have to adjust to having a lot of free time where you never used to or become very bored and unhappy.

[Nucks]

Also, the vacation you take once you know you've pased the UFE >>>> UFE study break summer. ;)

Is it common to take a vacation in December after marks release? I was planing to take a two weeker next September after the UFE itself. It hadn't actually occurred to me to take a celebration vacation..which isn't a bad idea at all.

[engbad]

Is it common to take a vacation in December after marks release? I was planing to take a two weeker next September after the UFE itself. It hadn't actually occurred to me to take a celebration vacation..which isn't a bad idea at all.

Don't think so, as it's right in the middle of busy season.

[komal]

Don't think so, as it's right in the middle of busy season.

December is busy? Maybe a little, but not really.

People don't take many vacations right then because Christmas is around the corner and people use their holidays around that time.

Most folks will take vacations after writing.

[poorwingman]

Is it common to take a vacation in December after marks release? I was planing to take a two weeker next September after the UFE itself. It hadn't actually occurred to me to take a celebration vacation..which isn't a bad idea at all.

It's not commong to take a long time off around marks release. You're usually in the middle of audit planning in Nov/Dec as it's the last time to prepare for busy season. Also, many companies quiet down over the Christmas holidays, so auditors have to finish a lot of the planning work before Dec 15-20th.

As other people mentioned, it's more common to take the vacation right after you write; however, most people don't take a long vacation. Depending on your firm, training may start the week after the UFE or the week after that. If you miss training, you may be able to take training at a later date but the timing might not work out well with your client commitments. I've heard of one person taking the whole fall off and coming back in December (although, I don't know why you would because that just prolongs the time it takes to get your CA designation. And if your plan is to get out, you should prefer to do 2-3 months more of Intermediate/A2 level work than 2-3 months more of Senior Staff Accountant level work as the former is much easier and far less stressful).

If you plan to take time off, you should try talk to HR and your engagement teams in the summer (or earlier).

[Krupo]

The timing of a post-UFE vacation really depends on what your office is like, especially in terms of workload, and in terms of what you call a long vacation.
In terms of workload, many people experience a Jan-Feb busy season, so your office may already be ramping up in December, or it may be the calm before the storm.

Looking at how much time you're taking, again the question is whether you plan on blowing all your vacation time for the year, taking unpaid leave, or just heading out for about two weeks.

Taking two weeks is the easiest option, and as long as you're not in a tiny office where all hands have to be on deck, you can probably take it whenever, given enough advance notice. If you have some extra days given as an award for passing (love that perk), you may be able to stretch out to a full month. I ended up taking the entire month of May off after passing - that worked in my particular situation quite nicely.

Finally, there's the sabattical option. You've seen the argument against it - it delays the time before you can get your CA so you can leave as a 'free agent' - but it's undoubtedly a very fun option if you can swing it. Keep in mind that the older and more experienced you get, the harder it'll be to just take a few months to travel the world or do whatever. Not impossible, just more complicated. If you have the chance, think about doing it. I've never met someone who said "I wish I took less vacation time." ;)