Toronto to ban plastic bags starting in 2013

[zonetbh]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2012/06/06/19845836.html

Just heard this on the news...guess ill be doing my shopping in Vaughan next year. Everyone at the office thinks this is a joke. Is there really a valid argument for this? Will the suburbs follow?

[uber_shnitz]

Well are they still in high demand? Snice they started charging for them at the store, seems people haev pretty much stopped asking for them (considering Costco and other stores gives them for free/1$ on some days). If there's no demand, mgiht as well cut the supply.

I mean, it's stupid when you think of how we do things, but I mean I've been usnig reusable bags for a few years and I don't really miss the plastic ones; all I used them for was for the trash :lol:

[stuntman]

less plastic = good

[zonetbh]

Well are they still in high demand? Snice they started charging for them at the store, seems people haev pretty much stopped asking for them (considering Costco and other stores gives them for free/1$ on some days). If there's no demand, mgiht as well cut the supply.

I mean, it's stupid when you think of how we do things, but I mean I've been usnig reusable bags for a few years and I don't really miss the plastic ones; all I used them for was for the trash :lol:

I don't know anyone personally who has stopped using them. I use them to line garbage bins in the house personally. At 5 cents a bag its cheaper then buying overpriced glad bags and you can use it to haul groceries home. Double use.



less plastic = good

Meh, ill just do my grocery shopping in Vaughan after work. I already do that with Walmart, the Vaughan walmart has never charged for bags at all.

[uber_shnitz]

I don't know anyone personally who has stopped using them. I use them to line garbage bins in the house personally. At 5 cents a bag its cheaper then buying overpriced glad bags and you can use it to haul groceries home. Double use.
Well that's what I used to use them for too but in the end we found packs of trash bin bags at Dollarama which came at about the same price so we went with that. Wasn't that big a loss given that we only had one use for them and that it didn't really help the landfill anyways (AFAIK only a few stores carried the actually decomposable plastic bags). Like I said, no big deal personally. It'd be interesting to see what the stats are like in Toronto though (like how much per day a grocery makes on plastic bag sales say).

[BornRuff]

Part of me thinks that this might have been done purely to piss off Ford. "Oh, you want to get rid of the 5 cent fee? How bout we just go a step further in the other direction?"

With apparent questions about if Toronto even has the authority to ban plastic bags, I believe this wont come into effect any time soon.

[amz155]

So when you go to the mall, you'd have to walk around with a re-useable bag just in case you buy something since the store won't be able to sll you a plastic bag? Or if you make an unexpected/unplanned stop at a store where you didn't anticipate the stop and bring bags with you, you won't be able to buy a plastic bag? >:(

[45ED]

I believe a few news orgs got it incorrect and DOA is actually 2014. The minutes say that they want an implementation plan in 2013 for enforcement (the "outright ban") in 2014.


2 - Motion to Amend Item (Additional) moved by Councillor Anthony Perruzza (Final)
That:

1. City Council prohibit retailers from offering or providing customers with single-use plastic retail shopping bags effective January 1, 2014.

2. City Council direct the Acting General Manager, Solid Waste Management Services to conduct a consultation process with industry and consumers on an implementation plan for the ban on single-use plastic retail shopping bags and report back to the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee on an implementation strategy in January 2013.

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2012.EX20.2


Edit: nvm, I've read the CityNews article that clarified:



Coun. Anthony Perruzza first tabled a motion for the all-out ban by 2014, but lost in a 22-22 tie. However, Coun. David Shiner's motion for a ban by 2013 was approved.

Earlier, Perruzza said getting retailers to stop providing plastic bags to customers is the next logical step after the nickel fee.

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/209045--toronto-votes-to-ban-plastic-bags-in-toronto-retailers-by-2013

[sandikosh]

It is about time they ban it rather paying. Whenever I shop at Loblaw in Richmond Hill, I use the self serve lanes and notice people declining the purchase of bags upon checkout. Then after they pay, they grab a bag. At one time a lady looked at me and said, "It's only 5 cents". I said, "If it's only 5 cents, why didn't you pay for it?" She gives me a mean look and walks away.

[jaysfan4life]

I love it. I thought more stores would offer paper bags once the .05 fee came in. Awesome.

[Rehan]

So all the people complaining about the 5 cent/bag fee will be rejoicing now that the fee will be eliminated, right? No? :|

[yao416]

Politics thread

[tebore]

It is about time they ban it rather paying. Whenever I shop at Loblaw in Richmond Hill, I use the self serve lanes and notice people declining the purchase of bags upon checkout. Then after they pay, they grab a bag. At one time a lady looked at me and said, "It's only 5 cents". I said, "If it's only 5 cents, why didn't you pay for it?" She gives me a mean look and walks away.

Keep that in mind the next time someone steals something from you.
Loblaw donates that money to environmental programs the plants trees or saves rain forests.

Back on point. These Toronto policies are BS. No Shark fins, no plastic bags, double land transfer tax, and so on.

Why are these stupid politicians worried about dumb problems, when they should be worried about cleaning up crime(via youth programs, rezoning to have mixed residential/business and supportive housing), and actually upgrading the f'in TTC.

Or hell have city planners look at how congestion and traffic will be when all those downtown condos get completed. TTC currently maxed out yet we'll cram in a few hundred thousand more in to the city's core. Streets are jammed but it's ok we'll cut lanes down to add bike lanes which are really useful 6/12 months. The power grid is maxed out but again it's ok we'll deal with it when we turn on the power to all those condos and suffer another 2003 style blackout.

I'm glad I'm moving out of this cesspool of a city run by hipsters with 1st world problems who turn a blind eye to real problems.

[Shaner]

They ban plastic bags, but I bet Toronto still pumps raw sewage directly into lake Ontario when there's a heavy rainfall. Most lake front cities do that. Seems hypothetical.

[uber_shnitz]

Can they replace palstic bags with an alternative? I just realized that only grocery stores chareg for it, regular stores usually will give them out for free so I'd assume those stores would need some kind of replacement. Paper bags?

[epik89]

this is so stupid.

how about those unexpected purchase days where you need a bag?

do we really need to go out every day with a reusable bag now?

[sandikosh]

this is so stupid.

how about those unexpected purchase days where you need a bag?

do we really need to go out every day with a reusable bag now?

All you need is to carry your own plastic bag. As you stuff your pockets with a wallet, cellphone and house keys, stuff a plastic bag! You may never know when you need one!

[uber_shnitz]

Why not keep a reusable in your car?

I mean, chances are if you'rr buying something so big you can't carry it in your hands freely, chances are you're not walking home with it either :razz:

[thelefteyeguy]

glad i left the pinkos...so glad im in Markham.

[sylpherware]

this is so stupid.

how about those unexpected purchase days where you need a bag?

do we really need to go out every day with a reusable bag now?

Start wearing cargo pants, ones with huge pockets :lol:

[Ojam]

If they want to ban something ban cigarettes. Cig butts do far more damage to the environment than plastic bags do and should be considerd toxic waste.

http://www.cigwaste.org/index.php/Research/#toxicity

[r1lee]

So what do people line their garbage bins with? So now, we have to buy bags to use? So in the end, it's pretty much the same but now people have to pay an extra cost of having to buy bags for the garbage bins?

I'm referring to the days when plastic bags were free.

[45ED]

So what do people line their garbage bins with? So now, we have to buy bags to use? So in the end, it's pretty much the same but now people have to pay an extra cost of having to buy bags for the garbage bins?

I'm referring to the days when plastic bags were free.

One big, black garbage bag. If I think it necessary. Otherwise, I tend to just dump stuff in there (sans bag).

[Hairball]

While the intent may be a good one, but there are repercussions, not everyone always has bags prepared for every trip. But I suppose retailers would probably end up providing paper bags or something.

What about tourists to the city? They're here to spend money, we shouldn't be making it more difficult for them to make purchases. Even on a personal level, sometimes I might end up buying more than I expect at the supermarket. I might be just roaming the mall, and end up buying something. Just something to think about.

[peanutz]

If they want to ban something ban cigarettes. Cig butts do far more damage to the environment than plastic bags do and should be considerd toxic waste.

http://www.cigwaste.org/index.php/Research/#toxicityThey don't do it because the government makes $$$ off of the sale of cigarettes. NO POLITICS INTENDED

[45ED]

In some ways, this is a middle-ground solution. On one hand, environmentalists and the like want to restrict the use/distribution of plastic bags because of their decidedly non-decompostable nature and thus non-Earth friendly.

And people who do use or like plastic bags (or did, rather) don't want to pay the fee.

Well now you have a solution: starting 2013, you'll never have to pay 5 cents a bag - because there won't be any bags.

[Corleone187]

they need to ban bottled water not plastic bags!

ok maybe bottled water is good for emergencies but they need to heavily tax it to stop abuse from people buying it for something other than emergencies, like everyday drinking! So much litter!

[manmanny]

From Star.

oronto city council has voted to ban plastic bags as of the beginning of next year.

The 24-20 vote came after a push by Mayor Rob Ford to overturn the five-cent fee on plastic shopping bags.

During the debate, Ford said people were “irritated” by the fee.

More to come.

http://oi47.tinypic.com/15pfl0i.jpg

[gman]

So when you go to the mall, you'd have to walk around with a re-useable bag just in case you buy something since the store won't be able to sll you a plastic bag? Or if you make an unexpected/unplanned stop at a store where you didn't anticipate the stop and bring bags with you, you won't be able to buy a plastic bag? >:(


this is so stupid.

how about those unexpected purchase days where you need a bag?

do we really need to go out every day with a reusable bag now?

Paper bag will be available.

Not sure why people here acts like the end of the world. When I was in US 20 years ago, the grocery store I went to did not have plastic bag. They gave paper bags. Regarding tourist, how many of them buy grocery when they are here? If they need to buy something in a non-grocery store (say in Eaton center), the store will give them paper bags like many of the stores are doing.

[manmanny]

this is so stupid.

how about those unexpected purchase days where you need a bag?

do we really need to go out every day with a reusable bag now?

Yep. The Chinese store they all give free bags. Dont charge 5c per bags.
They wont like this as time lost in bagging is money lost.

[kindred_99]

I noticed a while back when I bought something at HMV that the bag they gave me had a logo on it. Upon further inspection it turned out the bag was biodegradable. I forgot about it and a few months later needed a bag and when I went to grab one noticed that the HMV bag had broken apart, it was in a bunch of pieces. Why not just replace all bags with these types of bags, charge 5cents to anyone that needs one and everyone wins. I always have reusable bags in my car but once in a while I will forget to bring them along or if I'm just walking around in a mall I don't bring them with me as I'm not planning on buying anything specific but might find something while I browse. I now have to plan all purchases ahead just in case I don't have a bag with me, or one large enough, or if it is raining outside. Give us bio bags, charge 5cents like they do now and move on to more important issues. Cigarette butts tossed on the ground (or out of a moving car, that one really makes my blood boil) would be a nice start, talk about disgusting and bad for the environment.

[45ED]

From Star.

oronto city council has voted to ban plastic bags as of the beginning of next year.

The 24-20 vote came after a push by Mayor Rob Ford to overturn the five-cent fee on plastic shopping bags.

During the debate, Ford said people were “irritated” by the fee.

More to come.

http://oi47.tinypic.com/15pfl0i.jpg


Toronto City Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti and Mayor Rob Ford voted against a ban on single-use plastic bags in Toronto retail stores. The vote, however, did pass.


Oh that must've been fun.

Edit: and the reason why I was stalking Toronto Council minutes in the first place:


8 - Motion to Amend Item moved by Councillor David Shiner (Carried)

That City Council prohibit all City of Toronto retail stores from providing customers with single-use plastic carryout (shopping) bags, including those advertised as compostable, biodegradable, photodegradable or similar effective January 1, 2013.

Vote (Amend Item)
Jun-06-2012 5:38 PM

Result: Carried Majority Required - EX20.2 - Shiner - motion 8

Yes: 24 Maria Augimeri, Ana Bailão, Michelle Berardinetti, Shelley Carroll, Raymond Cho, Josh Colle, Gary Crawford, Janet Davis, Glenn De Baeremaeker, Sarah Doucette, Paula Fletcher, Mary Fragedakis, Mike Layton, Pam McConnell, Mary-Margaret McMahon, Joe Mihevc, Peter Milczyn, Ron Moeser, Gord Perks, Anthony Perruzza, Jaye Robinson, David Shiner, Adam Vaughan, Kristyn Wong-Tam

No: 20 Paul Ainslie, Vincent Crisanti, Mike Del Grande, Frank Di Giorgio, John Filion, Doug Ford, Rob Ford, Mark Grimes, Doug Holyday, Norman Kelly, Chin Lee, Gloria Lindsay Luby, Giorgio Mammoliti, Josh Matlow, Denzil Minnan-Wong, Frances Nunziata (Chair), Cesar Palacio, John Parker, James Pasternak, Michael Thompson

Absent: 1 Karen Stintz

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2012.EX20.2&utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=


For what it's worth, there is always a slim chance that the decision to ban plastic bags could be rescinded. I don't know how or what mechanisms would need to be put into play, but it's possible.

[heyjoe]

and then council voted to mandate that all torontonians must wear flowers in their hair in public

[mrperfect]

Reminder:
This thread is borderline Political; however since everyone seems to be having a good time I will make an exception.
But please refrain from any kind of Political bickering, including any discussions about politicians and political parties.

Thanks for understanding my situation. :!:

[manmanny]

and then council voted to mandate that all torontonians must wear flowers in their hair in public
lolwhat?

From Huffpo.

City council passed a motion to scrap the five-cent retail bag tax on July 1, removing a pet peeve of Mayor Rob Ford.

But moments later, council voted more decisively to ban distribution of plastic bags altogether.

[manmanny]

Reminder:
This thread is borderline Political; however since everyone seems to be having a good time I will make an exception.
But please refrain from any kind of Political bickering, including any discussions about politicians and political parties.

Thanks for understanding my situation. :!:

actually there should not be exception. Rule is rule.

[ferkel]

Time to replace the councillors that oppose this.. But torontoians dont care.. They enjoy the same crud each yer

[mrperfect]

actually there should not be exception. Rule is rule.

Topic is about plastic bags. Discuss the plastic bags and the enviornmental/logistical concerns then we are ok.
Talk about X politician vs Y politician or any other derailment from topic = thread locked.

[LNahid2000]

So when you go to the mall, you'd have to walk around with a re-useable bag just in case you buy something since the store won't be able to sll you a plastic bag? Or if you make an unexpected/unplanned stop at a store where you didn't anticipate the stop and bring bags with you, you won't be able to buy a plastic bag? >:(
Have you heard of paper bags?

[goob3r]

So will the fruit plastic bags be banned too?

[kindred_99]

Some stores, often clothing stores have been using paper bags for years. They aren't necessarily fancy (though some are) and don't appear to be that expensive. If you are a store in the mall you should have some sort of bag, paper is fine to give people that buy something as not everyone walks around with a bag on them at all times. Is this really the most important thing for city council to be doing (regardless of who's side you're on) especially considering the events of the past week.

[ssbtech]

Have you heard of paper bags?

Yes. I've also heard they rip, tear and are difficult to carry. They tip over in the back of the car and spill the groceries all over the place. Anyone living in a condo with more than one door between their car and suite has a nightmare with the things.

[BornRuff]

Yes. I've also heard they rip, tear and are difficult to carry. They tip over in the back of the car and spill the groceries all over the place. Anyone living in a condo with more than one door between their car and suite has a nightmare with the things.

They do have paper bags with handles.

Paper bags would not be the end of the world if you are just picking up a few things. If you are doing a big shopping trip, it shouldn't be too hard to plan to bring the reusable bags with you.

I have a bit of a hard time believing that this will actually happen anytime soon, but it wont be that bad if it does happen.

[Fantaz]

Yes. I've also heard they rip, tear and are difficult to carry. They tip over in the back of the car and spill the groceries all over the place. Anyone living in a condo with more than one door between their car and suite has a nightmare with the things.

What are people going use to pickup their dog's crap when they take them for walks, and we will all be forced to use expensive garbage bags for garbage instead of plastic shopping bags?

[ssbtech]

They do have paper bags with handles.

Paper bags would not be the end of the world if you are just picking up a few things. If you are doing a big shopping trip, it shouldn't be too hard to plan to bring the reusable bags with you.

I have a bit of a hard time believing that this will actually happen anytime soon, but it wont be that bad if it does happen.

IF they have the ones with handles available. The other problem is they still tip in the car since they're taller than plastic bags and don't catch onto the grocery bag hooks.

The reusable bags get dirty and they take much longer to fill since they don't stand up.

[ssbtech]

What are people going use to pickup their dog's crap when they take them for walks, and we will all be forced to use expensive garbage bags for garbage instead of plastic shopping bags?

Yep, contrary to popular belief, plastic grocery bags are reusable. Recyclable too.

I'm always grabbing a plastic bag for various things.

[Buggy166]

Yes. I've also heard they rip, tear and are difficult to carry. They tip over in the back of the car and spill the groceries all over the place. Anyone living in a condo with more than one door between their car and suite has a nightmare with the things.

ever had LCBO bags rip when you put cold beer in'em? Its always fun to drop cans or bottles down on the pavement. lol

[Simaahoy]

I could see them using boxes in the future instead for heavy groceries. I really hate plastic bags but, still find them useful.

[ssbtech]

I could see them using boxes in the future instead for heavy groceries. I really hate plastic bags but, still find them useful.

Sure, ok, I'll run up and down the stairs in my apartment 6 times carrying up boxes of groceries... >:(

[BornRuff]

IF they have the ones with handles available. The other problem is they still tip in the car since they're taller than plastic bags and don't catch onto the grocery bag hooks.

The reusable bags get dirty and they take much longer to fill since they don't stand up.

#firstworldproblems

Any type of bag can be positioned properly to not roll around. Plastic bags don't stand up either.

We will live.

[BornRuff]

I could see them using boxes in the future instead for heavy groceries. I really hate plastic bags but, still find them useful.

Loblaws and their associated stores have been promoting this for years.

http://www.presidentschoice.ca/LCLOnline/products.jsp?productId=18755&type=details

[Ojam]

Sure, ok, I'll run up and down the stairs in my apartment 6 times carrying up boxes of groceries... >:(

Then use reusable bags. Seriously, it seems like most of the complaints in here are that some people who don't think ahead will be ever so slightly inconvenienced.

[Xpwmata]

From Star.


http://oi47.tinypic.com/15pfl0i.jpg

Are there not more pressing issues for these smiling buffoons to waste their time and unprofessionalism on than Toronto's ongoing war with the Plastic Bag?

[ssbtech]

#firstworldproblems

Any type of bag can be positioned properly to not roll around. Plastic bags don't stand up either.

We will live.

Sorry, how does one stop a paper bag from flopping over on a big flat surface?

I've never had a plastic bag spill out. You did read my whole post, right?

[Ojam]

Sorry, how does one stop a paper bag from flopping over on a big flat surface?

I've never had a plastic bag spill out. You did read my whole post, right?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y5KE1XFOM48/Tn3bjDbxiWI/AAAAAAAAAIY/0CLH1x7al9o/black_milkcrate.jpg

[sandikosh]

So what do people line their garbage bins with? So now, we have to buy bags to use? So in the end, it's pretty much the same but now people have to pay an extra cost of having to buy bags for the garbage bins?

I'm referring to the days when plastic bags were free.

In those instances you will no longer be required to do so. When your garbage is picked up, you will need to give it a simple wash!

[sarnya]

For anyone who's greatly concerned by this, go buy a couple things from Whole Foods tomorrow. They don't have plastic bags in their stores and only use paper bags at check out. I believe millions of people shop everyday across North America and there isn't blood running down the aisles.

I've never once heard a Costco member/customer complain about their lack of bags. Packaging and product sizes at Costco are pretty big too!

The LCBO stopped using plastic bags a while back... it's not like Ontarians fled LCBOs for Beer Stores in revolt. Paper bags and recycled cardboard boxes appear to work just fine.

I promise you that everything will be okay in 2013 when plastic bags are banned in Toronto.

[sandikosh]

While the intent may be a good one, but there are repercussions, not everyone always has bags prepared for every trip. But I suppose retailers would probably end up providing paper bags or something.

What about tourists to the city? They're here to spend money, we shouldn't be making it more difficult for them to make purchases. Even on a personal level, sometimes I might end up buying more than I expect at the supermarket. I might be just roaming the mall, and end up buying something. Just something to think about.

Retailers will be required to sell you a "green" bag. Solution solved. Next problem, please?

[Xpwmata]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y5KE1XFOM48/Tn3bjDbxiWI/AAAAAAAAAIY/0CLH1x7al9o/black_milkcrate.jpg

How is equipping consumers with a 4 pound plastic milk crate more environmentally friendly than plastic bags?:lol:

[sandikosh]

I noticed a while back when I bought something at HMV that the bag they gave me had a logo on it. Upon further inspection it turned out the bag was biodegradable. I forgot about it and a few months later needed a bag and when I went to grab one noticed that the HMV bag had broken apart, it was in a bunch of pieces. Why not just replace all bags with these types of bags, charge 5cents to anyone that needs one and everyone wins. I always have reusable bags in my car but once in a while I will forget to bring them along or if I'm just walking around in a mall I don't bring them with me as I'm not planning on buying anything specific but might find something while I browse. I now have to plan all purchases ahead just in case I don't have a bag with me, or one large enough, or if it is raining outside. Give us bio bags, charge 5cents like they do now and move on to more important issues. Cigarette butts tossed on the ground (or out of a moving car, that one really makes my blood boil) would be a nice start, talk about disgusting and bad for the environment.

A huge problem is stores that carry plastic bags always have them in the back. They never run out of it. Because of that, the first one recieved may not be the first one used.

[Rehan]

What are people going use to pickup their dog's crap when they take them for walks, and we will all be forced to use expensive garbage bags for garbage instead of plastic shopping bags? Go buy your own small plastic bags, if you need them. I think Costco sells a box of them for something like $0.01-$0.02 each. It's cheaper than $0.05, so it's a win-win for you guys.

[sandikosh]

So will the fruit plastic bags be banned too?

I sincerely hope they get banned. Many times I have seen people stuffing those bags in their "other" bags!

[Ojam]

How is equipping consumers with a 4 pound plastic milk crate more environmentally friendly than plastic bags?:lol:

4lbs? No way is that 4lbs, and you leave it in the back of your car to organize the trunk better (and stop things from tipping over, which is what was being replied to). Wow, failure at thinking. :arrowu::facepalm:

[sandikosh]

Yes. I've also heard they rip, tear and are difficult to carry. They tip over in the back of the car and spill the groceries all over the place. Anyone living in a condo with more than one door between their car and suite has a nightmare with the things.

Do not be so negative in life! Always think POSITIVE!. The positive is the much needed exercise!

[Simaahoy]

For those who are making a big deal against the ban, you have the option of shopping elsewhere right?

[sandikosh]

What are people going use to pickup their dog's crap when they take them for walks, and we will all be forced to use expensive garbage bags for garbage instead of plastic shopping bags?

By laws will be passed that before walking your dog, you give it a purge. Failure to do so will net you a huge fine!

[Xpwmata]

4lbs? No way is that 4lbs, and you leave it in the back if your car to organize the trunk better. Wow, failure at thinking. :arrowu::facepalm:

You do realize the manufacturing practice of plastic resin products involves more than just the end weight? haha No? You should educate yourself first before spewing garbage.

hahaha talk about failure

[sandikosh]

Sure, ok, I'll run up and down the stairs in my apartment 6 times carrying up boxes of groceries... >:(

I suggest you move to a lower floor so you wouldn't have to do much walking.

[Ojam]

You do realize the manufacturing practice of plastic resin products involves more than just the end weight? haha No? You should educate yourself first before spewing garbage.

hahaha talk about failure

Now you're back tracking because you were called out on your own failure. There are millions of these things just sitting out there already manufactured. You don't need to make new ones. You reuse the ones that are already there. You only need one to throw in your trunk and it never ever needs to be replaced. :facepalm:

[sandikosh]

How is equipping consumers with a 4 pound plastic milk crate more environmentally friendly than plastic bags?:lol:

That ain't 4 pounds! The benefit is that you can use it for your entire life. With a plastic bag, just a couple times and then it goes to the landfill.

[XtremeModder]

So all the people complaining about the 5 cent/bag fee will be rejoicing now that the fee will be eliminated, right? No? :|

No they'll just come and make thread after thread about how it's the end of the world that they can't use the plastic bags anymore and have to buy the Eco friendly bags at $2 each of whatever they cost.

For now I get plastic bags as I reuse them to clean out all my reptile tanks and use them in small trash containers.

[kindred_99]

Go buy your own small plastic bags, if you need them. I think Costco sells a box of them for something like $0.01-$0.02 each. It's cheaper than $0.05, so it's a win-win for you guys.

Will Costco be allowed to sell these if they are banned? Or do you mean people should buy them in other parts of the city/province.

[ssbtech]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y5KE1XFOM48/Tn3bjDbxiWI/AAAAAAAAAIY/0CLH1x7al9o/black_milkcrate.jpg

Great, now I not only have to remember my reusable bag, but also my milk crates too. :facepalm:

[Ojam]

Great, now I not only have to remember my reusable bag, but also my milk crates too. :facepalm:

Do people really need a step by step guide?

1.) Pay for your groceries
2.) They give you the "feared and loathed" paper bags that you hate so much
3.) you put two or 3 in the crate so that they stand up (preferably separating heavy and crushable, you don't want them together, that's probably difficult for you to understand too.)
4.) if you have more than 2 or 3 you align them to the sides of the crate in a pattern to keep them standing
5.) You drive home without your groceries tipping over and if you followed step 3 your bread hasn't been crushed.
6.) You arrive home and take your bags out, leaving the crate in the back of the car, which can be useful for other things besides just groceries.

I hope that is clear enough. :facepalm:

It's seriously like you whiners are just looking for reasons to complain.

[CSK'sMom]

Yes. I've also heard they rip, tear and are difficult to carry. They tip over in the back of the car and spill the groceries all over the place. Anyone living in a condo with more than one door between their car and suite has a nightmare with the things.

Ok, so lets get this straight? So you've "heard" paper bags rip, tear and are difficult to carry and they tip over in the trunk? I just want to clarify that you actually don't have experience with them with groceries? :rolleyes:

Now I will say that I always get my groceries in paper bags (a US thing, it's a choice). They do not rip or tear or fall over. Quite the contrary. Paper grocery bags were the absolute norm here at one time too. The paper is much thicker and stronger, quite like the large garden waste paper bags actually. Never had one rip or tear, even in summer with frozen stuff sweating. And definitely don't tip over either....

[kindred_99]

Why don't they bring back the Knob Hill Farms boxes which later became baskets.

[Toukolou]

For anyone who's greatly concerned by this, go buy a couple things from Whole Foods tomorrow. They don't have plastic bags in their stores and only use paper bags at check out. I believe millions of people shop everyday across North America and there isn't blood running down the aisles.

I've never once heard a Costco member/customer complain about their lack of bags. Packaging and product sizes at Costco are pretty big too!

The LCBO stopped using plastic bags a while back... it's not like Ontarians fled LCBOs for Beer Stores in revolt. Paper bags and recycled cardboard boxes appear to work just fine.

I promise you that everything will be okay in 2013 when plastic bags are banned in Toronto.

You had me right up until the LCBO comment, I don't have a choice where I shop for booze, and I'm annoyed as heck they don't still have those 8 pack fold out beer caddies you could mix and match with.

Why paper isn't better than plastic (http://www.reuseit.com/learn-more/myth-busting/why-paper-is-no-better-than-plastic)

[Ojam]

Why don't they bring back the Knob Hill Farms boxes which later became baskets.

<sarcasm> I've heard that baskets are made from wood, and wood can cause splinters, I have small delicate hands, I can't be getting splinters. </sarcasm>

[t3359]

For me, I'm thinking that plastic bags cost the retailers less than paper... I haven't used paper bags much, but I think the plastic ones are much easier to use, i.e., I can carry three bags in each hand, versus one paper bag. The only paper bags with handles I know about are the one that you get when shopping for clothes, and I don't think those can carry a bag of milk... hey wait, are they gonna ban those too? Would I get a box of milk? :-0

Wonder what the implications would be for businesses at the border of the City of Toronto.


Part of me thinks that this might have been done purely to piss off Ford. "Oh, you want to get rid of the 5 cent fee? How bout we just go a step further in the other direction?"


Time to replace the councillors that oppose this.. But torontoians dont care.. They enjoy the same crud each yer

Yeah, this term won't get anything constructive done. We'll see what happens next term. Guess that's what happens when the mayor pisses everyone off.

bjl

[ssbtech]

Do people really need a step by step guide?

1.) Pay for your groceries
2.) They give you the "feared and loathed" paper bags that you hate so much
3.) you put two or 3 in the crate so that they stand up (preferably separating heavy and crushable, you don't want them together, that's probably difficult for you to understand too.)
4.) if you have more than 2 or 3 you align them to the sides of the crate in a pattern to keep them standing
5.) You drive home without your groceries tipping over and if you followed step 3 your bread hasn't been crushed.
6.) You arrive home and take your bags out, leaving the crate in the back of the car, which can be useful for other things besides just groceries.

I hope that is clear enough. :facepalm:

It's seriously like you whiners are just looking for reasons to complain.

I don't want milk crates sliding around in the back of my car when I don't have groceries in them.

My step by step guide is better:

1) Pay for groceries
2) Take groceries to car in plastic bags
3) Hang grocery bags on bag hooks built into the side of the trunk at the perfect height to keep bags from spilling all over the place (too low for paper bag handles or reusable bag handles)
4) Drive home, take grocery bags off hook and carry upstairs in one trip.

[ssbtech]

I don't care to have the government micro-managing the method and process by which I take my groceries home. They meddle with enough as it is...

[kindred_99]

Those Knob Hill Farms boxes were cardboard at first then they went to a regular decent strength plastic. You still see people using them for storage or in their garages.

It looks like no more bags of milk, just cartons and jugs. What about chips? The possibilities are endless.

[Ojam]

hey wait, are they gonna ban those too? Would I get a box of milk?

I'm fairly certain they are called cartons.

http://redpengirl.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/istockphoto_3931123-stock-photo-of-milk-carton.jpg



I don't want milk crates sliding around in the back of my car when I don't have groceries in them.

They don't slide, they grip the carpet.



My step by step guide is better:

1) Pay for groceries
2) Take groceries to car in plastic bags
3) Hang grocery bags on bag hooks built into the side of the trunk at the perfect height to keep bags from spilling all over the place (too low for paper bag handles or reusable bag handles)
4) Drive home, take grocery bags off hook and carry upstairs in one trip.

Well it doesn't look like you will be able to do that anymore cupcake.

[Toukolou]

Loblaw donates that money to environmental programs the plants trees or saves rain forests.

Loblaw "environmental" contribution (http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/bag-levy-a-green-improvement-but-councillors-still-aim-to-kill-fee/article2444197/?service=mobile)

By my very rough calculations, Loblaw has probably realized a conservative $45million profit on those bags.

Gee with Loblaws' $4million donation they probably can plant trees AND save the rainforests!

[t3359]

I'm fairly certain they are called cartons.

http://redpengirl.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/istockphoto_3931123-stock-photo-of-milk-carton.jpg

Ha ha, yeah I know... Now they have to make 4L ones.

Soon they'll be banning the shiny foil-bags and other things you can't recycle at all. Plastic bags, at least you can recycle.

Some cities (i.e., Markham), you can't even recycle styrofoam... I have to drop it off at my parents' place every few months...

To me, there are bigger problems to deal with... the 5cent fee was fine as it was. Heck, increase it to 25cents to get the point across... or even to $1, just as the reusable bags.

bjl

[YLSF]

I think it is a pretty dumb move myself. I am all for discouraging people to take bags if they don't "need" them but to ban it outright.. If people want to pay 5 cents a bag let them. This is even more dumb than the bag tax. Is this all politics? So ,the compromise will be "let's just keep the bag tax"?? I bring my own bags most of the time but if I ended up buying more than I planned or just happen to pass by a store, I think there should be an option besides some paper bag that will break when I am two blocks away from the store.

[ddp]

Starting me a paper bag company tomorrow

[konfusion666]

Why don't they bring back the Knob Hill Farms boxes which later became baskets.

the black plastic baskets? lol. those are so useful. i think we still have like 5-6 of them lying around.

[flashy_mcflash]

I agree with Bornruff that it sounds a bit spiteful towards the mayor, though its interesting that the votes didn't quite line up on pro and anti Ford lines.

For those wondering about dog waste bags, we use the biodegradable ones from dollarama, I think they're called eco-something. You can just put those in the Green bin or in the trash since they break down.

[freeloader1969]

I don't care to have the government micro-managing the method and process by which I take my groceries home. They meddle with enough as it is...

Well spoken.

[Xpwmata]

Now you're back tracking because you were called out on your own failure. There are millions of these things just sitting out there already manufactured. You don't need to make new ones. You reuse the ones that are already there. You only need one to throw in your trunk and it never ever needs to be replaced. :facepalm:

Reuse ones already there? LOL?

Ill make it REAL simple as you lack basic research skills: http://www.gotmilkcrates.com/green-crates.html


Once again, educate yourself.

[freeloader1969]

I'm fairly certain they are called cartons.

http://redpengirl.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/istockphoto_3931123-stock-photo-of-milk-carton.jpg




They don't slide, they grip the carpet.



Well it doesn't look like you will be able to do that anymore cupcake.

Sure he will be able to. Just go outside city limits and purchase your groceries. It's a totally ridiculous ban when the bags themselves can be recycled, which is more than any tree hugger can actually say about the blue boxes themselves.

[uber_shnitz]

Idk about you guys, but I have a huge backlog of plastic bags in a drawer at home dating back to probably the early 2000s so even assuming I stopped collecting them tomorrow, I'd probably have enough for random tasks I'd need the bags for quite a few years (trash lining, dog poop, keep a few in my car for occasional shopping trip etc).

[Syne]

The demand for bags won't go away, as people will either forget theirs on occasion and not want to go all the way back home for bags, or they will be at a shopping mall, where it's impractical to bring bags. So does this mean stores will be switching to paper?

[konfusion666]

The demand for bags won't go away, as people will either forget theirs on occasion and not want to go all the way back home for bags, or they will be at a shopping mall, where it's impractical to bring bags. So does this mean stores will be switching to paper?

I don't like this new (proposed?) bylaw. I exclusively use grocery store bags to handle all the garbage from my condo; now I have to buy boxes of plastic bags? Bah.

[flexwong]

This is stupid. There is still a demand for plastic bags. I know that in my household, plastic bags get re-used for things like carrying random items around, garbage bags, etc. And as someone said earlier, what happens if you're out, without a reusable bag, and need to buy something? You have to carry it? How are small businesses going to afford buying paper bags for all their customers? :facepalm:

[dollarsign]

Dumbest bylaw ever! I'd bet everything it gets rescinded within a month.

I can just see the proposed new bylaw enforcement officers planned for collecting fines from businesses supplying contraband plastic bags. An added bonus to the city coffers when they team up with dairy farms to fine everybody keeping milk crates in their cars. Ever read the print on a milk crate? It's illegal to use them for anything other than milk delivery from a dairy company. Another windfall for the city...

[uber_shnitz]

This is stupid. There is still a demand for plastic bags. I know that in my household, plastic bags get re-used for things like carrying random items around, garbage bags, etc. And as someone said earlier, what happens if you're out, without a reusable bag, and need to buy something? You have to carry it? How are small businesses going to afford buying paper bags for all their customers? :facepalm:

The same way they afforded buying plastic bags? I mean, it might be more expensive but assuming they had no choice....

I'm quite certain also that there's a more "environmental friendly" alternative (assuming that's what caused the decision) to the plastic bag, like a biodegradable one or something.

[Nettles]

You need to be weary when a gov't is managing $ by causing a problem for people and being a cheapskate rather than coming up with revenue generation schemes.

[Ojam]

Reuse ones already there? LOL?

Ill make it REAL simple as you lack basic research skills: http://www.gotmilkcrates.com/green-crates.html


Once again, educate yourself.

That's all well in good for the states.. Except Canada changed the size of the milk crates they use when switching to metric. So I was lucky enough to be able to get an old unused old one from my grand parents. I'm sure if you do some yard sale hunting or flea market you will also be able to find an old one that can't be used anymore, which as your own link indicates normally would end up in a landfill.

[Swswswish]

Don't most stores give out paper bags already?

[dollarsign]

Don't most stores give out paper bags already?

I don't know any GROCERY store that gives out paper bags. Grocery and convenience stores seem to be the target of the city-councilor treehuggers.

Sure, if somebody's buying a $30 shirt they don't care. For simple groceries though, it's a different matter.

Forget the 5¢ charge for bags. Paper bags are MUCH more expensive than plastic for a retailer to buy. If they don't charge for them, then the price will just be hidden in increased food costs.

Plastic bags cost about 1.5¢ per bag. Paper bags cost about 30¢ each. There will be a serious increase in the cost of food should this foolish bylaw stand.

Here's an example of what they cost the retailer: Paper Bag Costs (http://ejbags.com/paper-shopping-bags-supply-toronto-canada)

[BornRuff]

Sorry, how does one stop a paper bag from flopping over on a big flat surface?

I've never had a plastic bag spill out. You did read my whole post, right?

You can stand them next to each other, lean them against larger objects or just lay them on their side. The milk crate idea is not bad either.

It is something that you can easily adapt to.

[gman]

Sure, ok, I'll run up and down the stairs in my apartment 6 times carrying up boxes of groceries... >:(
You can always keep a few Costco (fold-able) reusable bags in your car. Stuff your paper bags into it so that you don't need the milk crate. You can put may be 4 paper bags with stuff in it. Carry one big bag up to your apartment. Carry it down next time you come back down.

This way you don't need to carry the re-usable bag around when you are shopping (once the paper bags is available).

By the way, I don't put milk crate in my trunk. I put two blue boxes in my truck. It won't slide.


Ha ha, yeah I know... Now they have to make 4L ones.

Soon they'll be banning the shiny foil-bags and other things you can't recycle at all. Plastic bags, at least you can recycle.

Some cities (i.e., Markham), you can't even recycle styrofoam... I have to drop it off at my parents' place every few months...

To me, there are bigger problems to deal with... the 5cent fee was fine as it was. Heck, increase it to 25cents to get the point across... or even to $1, just as the reusable bags.

bjl

Incorrect. Markham does recycle styrofoam. It is only the blue box does not accept styrofoam. You can take them to the depot (that is what I do) assuming it is a lot closer than your parents' place.

[aplayaz2000]

you want me to put my computer games in a paper bag?

the ****

[Fantaz]

Why don't they bring back the Knob Hill Farms boxes which later became baskets.

Those Knob Hill Farms boxes were cardboard at first then they went to a regular decent strength plastic. You still see people using them for storage or in their garages.

It looks like no more bags of milk, just cartons and jugs. What about chips? The possibilities are endless.

the black plastic baskets? lol. those are so useful. i think we still have like 5-6 of them lying around.


Knob Hill Farms boxes were the best...

[flexwong]

The same way they afforded buying plastic bags? I mean, it might be more expensive but assuming they had no choice....

I'm quite certain also that there's a more "environmental friendly" alternative (assuming that's what caused the decision) to the plastic bag, like a biodegradable one or something.

Plastic bags are cheap to buy. Paper, not so much. Biodegradable, probably even more expensive.

[flashy_mcflash]

How do you people manage when you shop at Costco? You can buy a gallon on mayonnaise there or half a cow and they've never had bags. You guys are getting pretty worked up over nothing. You'll live.

[uber_shnitz]

Plastic bags are cheap to buy. Paper, not so much. Biodegradable, probably even more expensive.

Of course they are no doubt about that, but if there's legislation and an entire population starts demanding other kinds of bags, R&D and production methods will be develop some kind of midway cheap enough bag that isn't the plastic kind that's banned.

[Winkle]

Plastic bags are cheap to buy. Paper, not so much. Biodegradable, probably even more expensive.

The thing about paper bags is that even if they're biodegradable, they won't break down if they go to a landfill. A lot of biodegradable waste that goes to a landfill are buried in very compact layers with no access to oxygen for the bacteria to break or decompose anything. They've done studies and research where they've dug into the bottom of landfills and found hotdogs thrown out in the 60's that look like they've barely gone bad.

[flashy_mcflash]

The thing about paper bags is that even if they're biodegradable, they won't break down if they go to a landfill. A lot of biodegradable waste that goes to a landfill are buried in very compact layers with no access to oxygen for the bacteria to break or decompose anything. They've done studies and research where they've dug into the bottom of landfills and found hotdogs thrown out in the 60's that look like they've barely gone bad.

What? I would need a source on this that if you leave paper ANYTHING out in a landfill or anywhere outdoors, it wouldn't biodegrade over time. Who are 'they' and where is this bounty of research?

[diggler649]

Hopefully they don't ban plastic dog poo bags. My slaves use them to pick up after my dogs.

[flashy_mcflash]

Hopefully they don't ban plastic dog poo bags. My slaves use them to pick up after my dogs.

It's only the bags being distributed at retail checkouts, nowhere else. Your slaves can rest easy (insofar as one can rest easy while picking cotton :) )

[45ED]

Ha ha, yeah I know... Now they have to make 4L ones.

Soon they'll be banning the shiny foil-bags and other things you can't recycle at all. Plastic bags, at least you can recycle.

Some cities (i.e., Markham), you can't even recycle styrofoam... I have to drop it off at my parents' place every few months...

To me, there are bigger problems to deal with... the 5cent fee was fine as it was. Heck, increase it to 25cents to get the point across... or even to $1, just as the reusable bags.

bjl

Unrealistic. People are having a tiff over paying a poxy 5 cents for a plastic bag. Do you really these same people would accept paying a dollar for a bag?

[diggler649]

Unrealistic. People are having a tiff over paying a poxy 5 cents for a plastic bag. Do you really these same people would accept paying a dollar for a bag?

+1. I haven't used plastic bags in years. I usually tuck my shirt into my pants and put all the groceries down my shirt. This method sucks when buying ice cream. I usually leave one plastic bag lying around the house in case I'm feeling very sad and lonely during the Christmas holidays.

[uber_shnitz]

Unrealistic. People are having a tiff over paying a poxy 5 cents for a plastic bag. Do you really these same people would accept paying a dollar for a bag?

If they still need it they'll buy it, if they don't "accept it", they'll find an alternative or stop using them. That's how the market works.

I agree if they really wanted ot stop peopel from using plastic bags, charging slightly more (maybe not a dollar, but 10 cents sounds like a good deterrent) would be a more effective turnoff.

[Cristian_01]

You had me right up until the LCBO comment, I don't have a choice where I shop for booze, and I'm annoyed as heck they don't still have those 8 pack fold out beer caddies you could mix and match with.

Why paper isn't better than plastic (http://www.reuseit.com/learn-more/myth-busting/why-paper-is-no-better-than-plastic)

Actually, they do have them, can't remember how much they cost, but it's less than $1... and they are called "mix and match"...
Cristian.

[DearSummer]

Terrible decision. This will be changed before too long.

[flashy_mcflash]

Terrible decision. This will be changed before too long.

How? By whom?

[ktan09]

MANY places give out paper bags, I don't see what the big deal is? H&M, Club Monaco, LCBO, grocery stores aren't that much difference. I like the plastic bag as much as the next person, just make it compostable and then keep it as an option. I don't see the problem with it

[goob3r]

Plastic bags are recyclable in Toronto. They may not be in all cities, but they are here. Why is a plastic bag ban necessary?

[flashy_mcflash]

Plastic bags are recyclable in Toronto. They may not be in all cities, but they are here. Why is a plastic bag ban necessary?

Because only about 1% of bags are actually recycled rather than going to landfill.

[neutral]

Are there not more pressing issues for these smiling buffoons to waste their time and unprofessionalism on than Toronto's ongoing war with the Plastic Bag?

Wars on cars, wars on plastic bags? When will it all end? Oh the humanity.

[zonetbh]

Don't most stores give out paper bags already?

I haven't seen a paper bag in years. Maybe its just where I shop.

If you're going to use paper though, you're not really doing the environment or anyone any favours:

http://www.reuseit.com/learn-more/myth-busting/why-paper-is-no-better-than-plastic

People all seem to be under some kind of false impression that paper is way more friendly than plastic. Simply not true, they're both bad.

[Simaahoy]

Even though plastic bags are banned, you have to pay for the reusable bags which are $1+ lol.:lol:

[Rehan]

Wars on cars, wars on plastic bags? When will it all end? Oh the humanity. War on obesity is beginning....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/war-on-child-obesity-out-of-the-cafeteria-and-onto-the-playground/article4209692/
http://cjme.com/story/obesity-fight-saskatchewan-eyes-new-york-sugary-drink-ban/59060
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/inactivity-costs-us-68-billion-a-year-you-thought-love-handles-were-bad/article4237405/

[Rehan]

Even though plastic bags are banned, you have to pay for the reusable bags which are $1+ lol.:lol: You don't have to. I've seen lots of giveaways of free reusable bags... I have more than enough, so I just refuse them even though they're free.

And even the "disposable" plastic bags are reuseable at least a few times. Keep them and reuse them until they're no good. You have several months until 2013 to build a stockpile of bags that can last you a long time if you reuse them.

[HandsomeRob]

Plastic bags are recyclable in Toronto. They may not be in all cities, but they are here. Why is a plastic bag ban necessary?

I've heard many times that the energy required to manufacture, transport and clean to a sanitary level necessary for transportation food; for reusable's is several times greater that the requirement to manufacture and recycle plastic bags.

If they are really concerned about being green, and not Prius green, why not put a $1 deposit on them and make it mandatory to use biodegradable ones? The homeless would go nuts collecting them, put beer cans to shame.

[neutral]

War on obesity is beginning....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/war-on-child-obesity-out-of-the-cafeteria-and-onto-the-playground/article4209692/
http://cjme.com/story/obesity-fight-saskatchewan-eyes-new-york-sugary-drink-ban/59060
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/inactivity-costs-us-68-billion-a-year-you-thought-love-handles-were-bad/article4237405/

Damn that would be war on 3 important fronts for a very special fellow in Toronto.

[konfusion666]

*****

I dunno, I think there may actually be a populist backlash against this one ...

[appleb]

MANY places give out paper bags, I don't see what the big deal is? H&M, Club Monaco, LCBO, grocery stores aren't that much difference. I like the plastic bag as much as the next person, just make it compostable and then keep it as an option. I don't see the problem with it

Too bad compostable bags are were banned by council as well.

[flashy_mcflash]

I dunno, I think there may actually be a populist backlash against this one ...

ahahaha I remember coming to RFD when the bag fee was first introduced. Page after page of fatalist whinging like "well I never! I am going to do all my shopping outside of Toronto! What an outrage!" The result? Zilch.

But hey, if you're Occupying a Sobey's, holla at me. I need some Triscuits.

[Simaahoy]

Will this ban include shopping centers and clothing stores??:confused:

[Xeros]

The thing about paper bags is that even if they're biodegradable, they won't break down if they go to a landfill. A lot of biodegradable waste that goes to a landfill are buried in very compact layers with no access to oxygen for the bacteria to break or decompose anything. They've done studies and research where they've dug into the bottom of landfills and found hotdogs thrown out in the 60's that look like they've barely gone bad.

Anaerobic decomposition.

Those hot dogs from the 60s were probably laced with so much preservatives that in all likelihood, it'll take FIRE to break them down.

[NorthYorker]

How do you people manage when you shop at Costco? You can buy a gallon on mayonnaise there or half a cow and they've never had bags.Costco pretty much means car. The way I see it, ban on plastic creates most problem for those least able to overcome - carless population. You either have to carry reusable bags with you all the time, or spend several extra $ each time you shop. Not mortally dangerous but inconvenient.

[bullionaire]

Why did they ban even compostable and biodegradable plastic bags? How are they worse than paper bags? If hippies don't like plastic bags, fine by me, but these clowns have no business telling us what to use.

[sexyj]

People that are complaining about this need to learn to remove plastic bags in their life. There are so many alternatives out there.

I don't even know how many times I see people buying one or two items in the supermarket and need to get a bag to "bag it". Our hands are there for a reason.

It also irritates me when the cashier at a Chinese grocer/walmart tells me "The bag is free" when I decline to take a bag. It's really sad when the majority's eco-friendliness is based on their convenience and cheapness.

[time space]

They ban plastic bags, but I bet Toronto still pumps raw sewage directly into lake Ontario when there's a heavy rainfall. Most lake front cities do that. Seems hypothetical.

I was going to mention that two wrongs don't make a right, but since it's only "hypothetical" I suppose it doesn't matter.

[Psubs]

People that are complaining about this need to learn to remove plastic bags in their life. There are so many alternatives out there.

I don't even know how many times I see people buying one or two items in the supermarket and need to get a bag to "bag it". Our hands are there for a reason.

It also irritates me when the cashier at a Chinese grocer/walmart tells me "The bag is free" when I decline to take a bag. It's really sad when the majority's eco-friendliness is based on their convenience and cheapness.

What will people use for garbage bins in the kitchen?

[flashy_mcflash]

What will people use for garbage bins in the kitchen?

Garbage bags.

[sexyj]

What will people use for garbage bins in the kitchen?


Garbage bags. :arrowu::arrowu::arrowu::arrowu::arrowu::arrowu::a rrowu::arrowu::arrowu: :facepalm:

[Ottomaddox]

I foresee a perfect storm of consumer angst when there are no free bags, and a consumer juggling 20 items on his way out of the store gets asked for his receipt....

[Rehan]

I foresee a perfect storm of consumer angst when there are no free bags, and a consumer juggling 20 items on his way out of the store gets asked for his receipt.... :facepalm: Use a shopping cart. That's what they're for, when you're at the store.

[sexyj]

You have the exact mentality of what I described. LEARN HOW TO LIVE WITHOUT PLASTIC BAGS


I foresee a perfect storm of consumer angst when there are no free bags, and a consumer juggling 20 items on his way out of the store gets asked for his receipt....

[flashy_mcflash]

I foresee a perfect storm of consumer angst when there are no free bags, and a consumer juggling 20 items on his way out of the store gets asked for his receipt....

Those poor leftists in Fort Mac, Alberta have managed to get by with their plastic bag ban. Same with the backwater burgs of San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Seattle. Suck it up cupcake, you'll figure it out eventually.

[Simaahoy]

You have the exact mentality of what I described. LEARN HOW TO LIVE WITHOUT PLASTIC BAGS

nah, these people will just go to Vaughan or Brampton to do their shopping..that's how outraged they are.

[flashy_mcflash]

nah, these people will just go to Vaughan or Brampton to do their shopping..that's how outraged they are.

lol, they should already be shopping there since these people promised to do this when the five-cent fee came in. Poor Toronto groceries, how will they ever survive?! :cry:

[mockingjay404]

Those poor leftists in Fort Mac, Alberta have managed to get by with their plastic bag ban. Same with the backwater burgs of San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Seattle. Suck it up cupcake, you'll figure it out eventually.

its not about right vs left, its about a fairly significant convenience being removed due to legislation (or a bylaw, rather)

yeah on a "planned" trip to the grocery store you can bring your fabric bag with you... which we do... but if on my way home from work i want to grab a carton of milk, some bread, and some bananas, i basically have to squeeze them into my laptop bag .. lol

[flashy_mcflash]

yeah on a "planned" trip to the grocery store you can bring your fabric bag with you... which we do... but if on my way home from work i want to grab a carton of milk, some bread, and some bananas, i basically have to squeeze them into my laptop bag .. lol

Or you can use a paper bag, or a box, or buy another reusable bag when you get there.

Interesting that people think retailers will be against this when sales of reusable bags will probably skyrocket. Mo' cloth bags, mo' money.

Here is the exact text of the ban. Plastic bags are not going to be wiped from the face of the earth, but you will not be able to get them at cashiers.


That City Council prohibit all City of Toronto retail stores from providing customers with single-use plastic carryout (shopping) bags, including those advertised as compostable, biodegradable, photodegradable or similar effective January 1, 2013.


Presumably you can still buy boxes of bags for garbage and stuff. Seriously folks, it's not that bad and you'll get used to it.

[rems]

For those saying to learn to live without plastic bags, what do you put your garbage in?

[45ED]

For those saying to learn to live without plastic bags, what do you put your garbage in?

The gray bin.

[Rehan]

its not about right vs left, its about a fairly significant convenience being removed due to legislation (or a bylaw, rather)

yeah on a "planned" trip to the grocery store you can bring your fabric bag with you... which we do... but if on my way home from work i want to grab a carton of milk, some bread, and some bananas, i basically have to squeeze them into my laptop bag .. lol Carry a few spare plastic bags in a pocket of your laptop back or your coat. And easy solution, just like for most of the other objections people have.

In Fort McMurray, some kids started a Take-a-bag/Leave-a-bag system at stores. I'm sure grownups can come up with even more solutions if they put their minds to it.

[rems]

The gray bin.

Doesnt the inside of that thing get gross without a garbage bag?

[epik89]

might as well ban paper bags as well.

i mean every stores gonna start giving them out instead of plastic.

WHICH id assume people wont even REUSE them because they know it will be available at the cashier.

who feels me on this one?

[45ED]

Doesnt the inside of that thing get gross without a garbage bag?

Can't tell -- it gets rinsed once in a while.

Then again, our garbage output isn't of the sort that, even without rinsing, it would become gross.

Still, we do use a garbage bag when necessary. Such as when it's really warm. Otherwise, in the grey bin it goes.

[Simaahoy]

lol, they should already be shopping there since these people promised to do this when the five-cent fee came in. Poor Toronto groceries, how will they ever survive?! :cry:

Also, they are burning gas if they live way to far. It adds up...


its not about right vs left, its about a fairly significant convenience being removed due to legislation (or a bylaw, rather)

yeah on a "planned" trip to the grocery store you can bring your fabric bag with you... which we do... but if on my way home from work i want to grab a carton of milk, some bread, and some bananas, i basically have to squeeze them into my laptop bag .. lol

Well, leave some of those reusable bags in the trunk of your car or in your bag.... not hard to find a solution:D

[NorthYorker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoska

Avoska
Avoska (Russian: авоська) or perhaps-bag is a vernacular for a particular type of shopping bag widespread in the former Soviet Union, a netted sack (setka, сетка).[1] It was a major cultural phenomenon of the everyday Soviet life. It was manufactured of various kind of strings.[2] With the advent of synthetic materials, some of them were made of stretchable string, so that a very small net could be stretched to a very large sack.
The name "avoska" derives from the Russian adverb авось, an expression of vague expectation of luck, in various contexts translated "perhaps", "just in case", etc. The term was introduced in 1930s in the context of shortages of consumer goods in the Soviet Union, when many basic things could have been purchased in a shop only by a strike of luck, and people used to carry an avoska in the pocket all the time

[gman]

nah, these people will just go to Vaughan or Brampton to do their shopping..that's how outraged they are.

If you have a car, you don't really need to get plastic bag from the store.

Many main stream grocery stores outside of Toronto will still charge you 5 cents per bag.
Many main stream grocery stores in Toronto will still charge you 5 cents per bag after July 1st.

[nauru]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoska

lol

Fitting.

[sandikosh]

Doesnt the inside of that thing get gross without a garbage bag?

Not if you give it a wash every week.

[Simaahoy]

http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhallpolitics/article/1207932--toronto-bag-ban-how-plastic-free-is-working-out-in-milton

[konfusion666]

http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhallpolitics/article/1207932--toronto-bag-ban-how-plastic-free-is-working-out-in-milton

Well, if those hicks out in Milton can handle going bag-free, I guess things won't be so bad for all the hipsters here in T.O. ;)

[BornRuff]

Costco pretty much means car. The way I see it, ban on plastic creates most problem for those least able to overcome - carless population. You either have to carry reusable bags with you all the time, or spend several extra $ each time you shop. Not mortally dangerous but inconvenient.

No, you only need to carry the bags with you when you are going shopping. If you want to just grab some things out of the blue, you can get a paper bag. It really isn't hard to understand.

[rsasp]

Without plastic bag, how am I going to pack my garbage?

Why can't they just make bio plastic bag?

[scholar80]

8 - Motion to Amend Item moved by Councillor David Shiner (Carried)

That City Council prohibit all City of Toronto retail stores from providing customers with single-use plastic carryout (shopping) bags, including those advertised as compostable, biodegradable, photodegradable or similar effective January 1, 2013.


To recap: Paper bags are more expensive and not necessarily more environmentally friendly than plastic bags. "Environmentally friendly" (i.e., compostable, biodagradable and photodegradable) plastic bags will also be banned. Tote/canvas "reusable" bags are not always convenient (unless given for free). Plastic garbage bags will be bought for garbage bins and still end up in landfills.

...so what is the benefit of this bylaw? (not being sarcastic, actually wondering out loud)

[ssbtech]

Enjoy a lot of this, folks:

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i357/ssbtech/IMG-20120607-00129.jpg

[ssbtech]

...so what is the benefit of this bylaw? (not being sarcastic, actually wondering out loud)

To make politicians look good. And save the planet, of course.

[YC]

There are some people who thinks paper bags is the solution. But that assumption is only true if people will be reusing or recycling the paper bags.

Not sure about other people, but I reuse the plastic bags for other purposes, but not paper bags.


http://earth911.com/recycling/paper/brown-paper-bags/facts-about-brown-paper-bags/

[Ottomaddox]

...so what is the benefit of this bylaw? (not being sarcastic, actually wondering out loud)

It's an empty political gesture to make people feel like they're doing something to help the earth while they drink bottled water in their SUVs.

[Agafaba]

Enjoy a lot of this, folks:

http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i357/ssbtech/IMG-20120607-00129.jpg

I already do, plastic bags can be just as useless if they are placed in the middle of an empty trunk.

[rsasp]

It's an empty political gesture to make people feel like they're doing something to help the earth while they drink bottled water in their SUVs.

Not just any SUV, but Range Rover, Tahoe..etc the V8 powered SUV. lol

[ssbtech]

I already do, plastic bags can be just as useless if they are placed in the middle of an empty trunk.

1) Don't put them in the middle of the trunk, instead:
2) Hang them on the grocery bag hooks (if so equipped)

My car came with these nice pop-out hooks built into the sides of the trunk. Never had a plastic bag tip.

[Agafaba]

1) Don't put them in the middle of the trunk, instead:
2) Hang them on the grocery bag hooks (if so equipped)

My car came with these nice pop-out hooks built into the sides of the trunk. Never had a plastic bag tip.

I dont understand... why are we comparing paper bags in the middle of an empty truck to someone being prepared with plastic bags? Perhaps the person you should really be giving that advice to is whoever took that picture.

[ssbtech]

I dont understand... why are we comparing paper bags in the middle of an empty truck to someone being prepared with plastic bags? Perhaps the person you should really be giving that advice to is whoever took that picture.

We're making the comparison because with the elimination of plastic bags, paper bags will be tipping all over the place with nothing to hold them in place.

[Agafaba]

We're making the comparison because with the elimination of plastic bags, paper bags will be tipping all over the place with nothing to hold them in place.

I have the same issue with plastic bags though... they tend to spill stuff all over the place in the right conditions.

[gman]

1) Don't put them in the middle of the trunk, instead:
2) Hang them on the grocery bag hooks (if so equipped)

My car came with these nice pop-out hooks built into the sides of the trunk. Never had a plastic bag tip.

Your car has hooks. My trunk has a blue box. Nothing tips. It does not matter if it is a plastic bag, a paper bag or no bag.

[BornRuff]

1) Don't put them in the middle of the trunk, instead:
2) Hang them on the grocery bag hooks (if so equipped)

My car came with these nice pop-out hooks built into the sides of the trunk. Never had a plastic bag tip.

I'm sure those hooks will work perfectly with reusable canvas bags as well.

You do know that 99% of the world's population doesn't use those hooks right?

For the times you need to use paper, just use your head and don't leave them standing up in the middle of an empty trunk.

[ssbtech]

I'm sure those hooks will work perfectly with reusable canvas bags as well.


No, they don't actually. The canvas bags are too tall to provide the required tension on the handle to hold it on the hook properly. The handles on those bags are much too wide to fit properly on the hooks too.

Trust me, the plastic bags (hell, even the biodegradable plastic bags) just work.

[Agafaba]

I'm sure those hooks will work perfectly with reusable canvas bags as well.

You do know that 99% of the world's population doesn't use those hooks right?

For the times you need to use paper, just use your head and don't leave them standing up in the middle of an empty trunk.

Genius! You should get this out to the public because this thread has lead me to believe that people in Toronto do not know how to transport anything that cant be attached to a hook.

[gman]

No, they don't actually. The canvas bags are too tall to provide the required tension on the handle to hold it on the hook properly. The handles on those bags are much too wide to fit properly on the hooks too.

Trust me, the plastic bags (hell, even the biodegradable plastic bags) just work.

So, when you cannot get the plastic bags in the future, you will not have a solution to deal with that?

[MoneyPenney]

Since plastic bags account only for 1% of landfills, why are they being banned?

[gman]

Since plastic bags account only for 1% of landfills, why are they being banned?

If it is really 1%, it sounds very big. If it is really 1%, it is a pretty good reason to ban it.

[sexyj]

great argument! :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


Since plastic bags account only for 1% of landfills, why are they being banned?

[LisaB]

Forget the 5¢ charge for bags. Paper bags are MUCH more expensive than plastic for a retailer to buy. If they don't charge for them, then the price will just be hidden in increased food costs.

Plastic bags cost about 1.5¢ per bag. Paper bags cost about 30¢ each. There will be a serious increase in the cost of food should this foolish bylaw stand.

We can't say that stores will necessarily hide the cost of the paper bag in the price of items. Let's look at the plastic bag. For years, stores were eating the cost of them, as they were giving them away for free. Then stores were allowed to charge a nickel for each bag, thus making $0.035 profit (by your numbers) on each bag. So now, stores are making more money (albeit, not a lot) than they were before. Did you see your food bill go down as a result of the increase in profits? I didn't see mine decrease. Nor did I see the profits from the plastic bags go to improve the infrastructure of my store or pay for any renos. OK, Loblaw says they donate it to the WWF, but they only donate a portion. If they were able to eat the cost of bags for so long, then why couldn't they donate all proceeds from the sale of their plastic bags? Or, at the very least, why not donate the proceeds after the bags had been paid for to the WWF?


Without plastic bag, how am I going to pack my garbage?

Why can't they just make bio plastic bag?

They do already make biodegradable plastic bags. They're the Green ones the Loblaw stores use, and also Dollarama's say on them that they are biodegradable. The reason these specific bags are also being banned is because many times, they don't break down in the dump. In order for these bags to break down, they need to be exposed to a certain amount of oxygen. If they aren't...they don't decompose.

I don't understand those posters who are saying they're going to take their business out of Toronto. With the exception of Walmart and Dollarama, all other stores have made the nickel fee a chain-wide policy. So, they're still going to charge you, whether you shop at their stores north or south of Steeles.

I will recommend that you purchase one or two of these bags: http://www.creativebag.com/bags/retail-bags/re-usable-shopping-bag---nylon.html

They're waterproof and fold neatly and tiny. I can fit three in my purse, in addition to my wallet, phone, keys, etc. I'm sure the gentlemen can fit one or two in their messenger bag/laptop bag/briefcase. Also, another trick I found useful was to buy a Loblaws reusable bag and leave it at my work. So, on my coat rack in my office, I have an extra umbrella (in case it starts to rain as I'm leaving the office), and a reusable bag. That way, I pick it up on my way out and I always have a bag for the grocery trip on my way home.

[TheRequiem]

That City Council prohibit all City of Toronto retail stores from providing customers with single-use plastic carryout (shopping) bags, including those advertised as compostable, biodegradable, photodegradable or similar effective January 1, 2013.

Idiots. They should be promoting those types of bags.

What a brain dead move by city council. People need bags to carry sh*t. Paper rips when heavily loaded, or when soggy. How will I carry home my milk? (I have re-usable bags, but sometimes I forget or don't bring enough.)

ugh.

[gman]

Idiots. They should be promoting those types of bags.

What a brain dead move by city council. People need bags to carry sh*t. Paper rips when heavily loaded, or when soggy. How will I carry home my milk? (I have re-usable bags, but sometimes I forget or don't bring enough.)

ugh.

Milk comes with a bag already.
Paper does not necessary rips when heavily loaded (unless as heavy as when a plastic bag will rip too) or when soggy. It depends on which kind of paper bag. Look at the yard waste type of paper bag. They are pretty strong.

[zonetbh]

Milk comes with a bag already.
Paper does not necessary rips when heavily loaded (unless as heavy as when a plastic bag will rip too) or when soggy. It depends on which kind of paper bag. Look at the yard waste type of paper bag. They are pretty strong.

What makes you think paper is so much better for the environment? http://www.care2.com/greenliving/paper-bags-vs-plastic-bags-which-is-really-better.html

Why does everyone assume paper is so much better? If it is better, its extremely marginal. The real solution is NEITHER paper or plastic.

Regardless, city council jumping on an issue and making a decision without being informed is a bad idea, no matter what that decision is. They didn't inform anyone, or talk to anyone about it, talk to the industry, the cities lawyers, nothing. I have very little faith in any councillor who just decided to vote yes on this on a whim.

[a-tree]

Let's ban everything made of plastic, all compressed spray cans, all chemical products, all cars, all cell phones, people that fart, let's ban civilization.

[Matrixvibe]

Hoarding bags next month when they become free again. Keeping a stock pile ready for said ban.

[Agafaba]

Let's ban everything made of plastic, all compressed spray cans, all chemical products, all cars, all cell phones, people that fart, let's ban civilization.

Personally I would ban you.

[a-tree]

Personally I would ban you.

I guess your feelings are still hurt from god knows how many threads ago? Let it go.

[Agafaba]

I guess your feelings are still hurt from god knows how many threads ago? Let it go.

I wasnt offended or anything, I just cant remember the last time you posted something that contributed to the discussion at hand.

[ssbtech]

So, when you cannot get the plastic bags in the future, you will not have a solution to deal with that?

What's your solution then? Milk crates waste space and slide around, how else do you propose to keep paper bags upright?

[Hello-]

This is a horrible idea. I'm gonna create a box made of plastic that stretches. Technically it will be a box but if you fill it up it turns into a bag. I'll be rich next year.

[aplayaz2000]

How do you people manage when you shop at Costco? You can buy a gallon on mayonnaise there or half a cow and they've never had bags. You guys are getting pretty worked up over nothing. You'll live.yeah...

just that not everyone has a car, and not everyone has a lift when grocery shopping
stop people have to carry that **** for a long walk
and plastic bags are uncomfortable enough

let's add the paper bags that rip

[a-tree]

I wasnt offended or anything, I just cant remember the last time you posted something that contributed to the discussion at hand.

You obviously didn't get the crux of my message when I said, 'let's ban everything'. I would say that's pretty close to contributing to the discussion at hand than saying 'I would ban you'.

[Agafaba]

You obviously didn't get the crux of my message when I said, 'let's ban everything'. I would say that's pretty close to contributing to the discussion at hand than saying 'I would ban you'.

Well then you agree with me, you are part of everything after all. :lol:

There is a reason other than "ban everything" behind this, even if its not a great one. The government gets harassed both locally and internationally about how Canada isnt green so feel good tactics like this must be very appealing to officials.

[a-tree]

Well then you agree with me, you are part of everything after all. :lol:

There is a reason other than "ban everything" behind this, even if its not a great one. The government gets harassed both locally and internationally about how Canada isnt green so feel good tactics like this must be very appealing to officials.

You didn't get my message. I'm not surprised.

[flashy_mcflash]

yeah...

just that not everyone has a car, and not everyone has a lift when grocery shopping
stop people have to carry that **** for a long walk
and plastic bags are uncomfortable enough



Then buy a reusable bag when you get to the store. If you forgot to bring one and need to carry something heavy/wet that won't work in a paper bag or a box, the cost is $1.

[vero95]

that was an interesting motion especially that none of large cities is banning them right now
the councillors mush have lots of trust in themselves if they did not need any consultation to vote for it :facepalm:

[flashy_mcflash]

that was an interesting motion especially that none of large cities is banning them right now


Certainly not large cities like Los Angeles :facepalm:, Seattle :facepalm:, Portland :facepalm:, San Jose :facepalm:, Mexico City :facepalm:, and a little-known country called Italy :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: !

[vero95]

Certainly not large cities like Los Angeles :facepalm:, Seattle :facepalm:, Portland :facepalm:, San Jose :facepalm:, Mexico City :facepalm:, and a little-known country called Italy :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: !

I meant in Canada. since when councillors look at other countries? if they did, they would be voting for subways :facepalm:

[flashy_mcflash]

I meant in Canada.

Nothing wrong with being the first to do something. And Fort McMurray, while not the same size as Toronto, has been doing fine with their ban. Don't worry so much, you'll have a stroke.

[vero95]

Nothing wrong with being the first to do something. And Fort McMurray, while not the same size as Toronto, has been doing fine with their ban. Don't worry so much, you'll have a stroke.

so they just woke up one day with an idea and voted for it?

[flashy_mcflash]

so they just woke up one day with an idea and voted for it?

Not sure what you mean.

[Lostwords]

I am not a fan of Ford but for once I am agreeing with him. I have to say this banning is the stupidest thing. So if I visit Toronto, I should always bring a bunch bags with me in anticipating that my wife would shop for cloth and then before we head home, she will go to China town and buy a bunch of chinese grocery. So how many bags should I bring? So what happen if you have people coming from other countries? should we tell them to bring bags with them before visiting Toronto? I am not a big fan of the 5 cents/bag thing either because that is just a way for stores to make money on bags they use to supply for free. It would be a better rule to charge people 5 cents and MAKE sure Store spend those 5 cents back into the city for environment initiatives.

Frankly I use those grocery store bags to hold garbage at my house. As someone mentioned, it save me from buying a bunch of smalll Glad bag.

[Rehan]

So if I visit Toronto, I should always bring a bunch bags with me in anticipating that my wife would shop for cloth and then before we head home, she will go to China town and buy a bunch of chinese grocery. So how many bags should I bring? So what happen if you have people coming from other countries? should we tell them to bring bags with them before visiting Toronto? There are easy solutions to your questions... Option 1: Use paper bags. It's not as if stores would not offer ANY bags at all. (And re-use those paper bags, too...they generally don't need to be recycled after just one use.) Option 2: Buy an inexpensive reusable bag or two from a store or off the street, and use it for the duration of your visit. I'm sure some smart & creative businessfolks out there will develop souvenir reusable bags for tourists.

[gman]

I am not a fan of Ford but for once I am agreeing with him. I have to say this banning is the stupidest thing. So if I visit Toronto, I should always bring a bunch bags with me in anticipating that my wife would shop for cloth and then before we head home, she will go to China town and buy a bunch of chinese grocery. So how many bags should I bring? So what happen if you have people coming from other countries? should we tell them to bring bags with them before visiting Toronto? I am not a big fan of the 5 cents/bag thing either because that is just a way for stores to make money on bags they use to supply for free. It would be a better rule to charge people 5 cents and MAKE sure Store spend those 5 cents back into the city for environment initiatives.

Frankly I use those grocery store bags to hold garbage at my house. As someone mentioned, it save me from buying a bunch of smalll Glad bag.

I guess you never visit certain cities in US such as SF before. Tourist has no problem shopping there.

[flashy_mcflash]

I am not a fan of Ford but for once I am agreeing with him. I have to say this banning is the stupidest thing. So if I visit Toronto, I should always bring a bunch bags with me in anticipating that my wife would shop for cloth and then before we head home, she will go to China town and buy a bunch of chinese grocery. So how many bags should I bring? So what happen if you have people coming from other countries? should we tell them to bring bags with them before visiting Toronto? I am not a big fan of the 5 cents/bag thing either because that is just a way for stores to make money on bags they use to supply for free. It would be a better rule to charge people 5 cents and MAKE sure Store spend those 5 cents back into the city for environment initiatives.

Frankly I use those grocery store bags to hold garbage at my house. As someone mentioned, it save me from buying a bunch of smalll Glad bag.

If you forget a bag, buy a reusable one at the store. It's easy, they are right at the checkout.

[appleb]

Milk comes with a bag already.

Milk bags are not easy to carry, and in general are quite nasty and smelly on the outside with all the condensation and moisture. It's like a slimy breeding ground for bacteria. I always buy a disposable bag to carry them, then use that bag to hold my garbage later.

[gman]

What's your solution then? Milk crates waste space and slide around, how else do you propose to keep paper bags upright?

I already mentioned more than one time. I put a blue box in my trunk. I also have a collapsible box in the truck (usually within the blue box). There are cities which banned plastic bag in the US for over a decade. There are many cars which do not have the hook you mentioned. How do those people deal with grocery? It is not rocket science. Do you really need help to figure out how to make that works? Really? I mean "REALLY"?

[flashy_mcflash]

With the lack of imagination, forethought, and basic motor skills displayed by those that are all of a sudden completely bewildered by the herculean task of bringing milk home, it's a wonder that some of you manage to make it out the door with pants on every day.

[rems]

If the whole purpose of this is to reduce things going to landfills, we should also ban take out. Also removes the need for garbage cans around the city. Tokyo is doing fine without either of those things.

[gman]

so they just woke up one day with an idea and voted for it?


Not sure what you mean.

What he mean is the bylaw was not presented to the council so that public and every Councillor could have prepared, researched and thought it through before the vote.
It was like one guy stood up, say "I propose ....; let us vote now". ... "Pass".

[flashy_mcflash]

What he mean is the bylaw was not presented to the council so that public and every Councillor could have prepared, researched and thought it through before the vote.
It was like one guy stood up, say "I propose ....; let us vote now". ... "Pass".

Fair enough, but lots of motions and issues have gone through Council in exactly this way. Similarly, were these processes done before Ford proposed the removal of the 5c fee?

[mockingjay404]

Globe and Mail article about the bag ban: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/torontos-ludicrous-plastic-bag-ban-was-a-rush-move/article4238123/




Hoarding bags next month when they become free again. Keeping a stock pile ready for said ban.

really?? bags gonna be free next month? that's awesome, i will hoard as well.

[162]

Wow TO that's a council to be proud of. The laughing stock of the country now.

[the_prairie_prophet]

With the lack of imagination, forethought, and basic motor skills displayed by those that are all of a sudden completely bewildered by the herculean task of bringing milk home, it's a wonder that some of you manage to make it out the door with pants on every day.

I rarely peruse Off Topic threads on RFD, but I'm glad I read this post. I wish I could thank a user for a post in this thread. That is absolutely brilliant.

To the topic at hand, I would welcome at least the idea of having Grocery Stores having a ban on plastic bags. Others have pointed out that if you're walking through a mall or something and just buy on a whim or whatnot, yeah I can see you not carrying your reusable bags with you. But if you're going grocery shopping you generally intend to and have an agenda. It's not that hard to have bags on hand as well. I've just started using them after the stockpile of plastic bags in my home recently almost burned my house down (not really a long story, but I feel telling it will diminish any intelligence previously found in my post), and I always seem to forget to take them into the store. Habits form over time however, start them now people.

I think it would be nice to see the major grocery chains take initiative and either convert to paper or jack up what they charge for plastic. 5 cents a bag is not a deterrent IMO.

[gman]

Fair enough, but lots of motions and issues have gone through Council in exactly this way. Similarly, were these processes done before Ford proposed the removal of the 5c fee?

Those motions usually do not have the same scale of influence to the whole city. It affects everyone (I am not talking about good or bad). I don't think they have thought about the logistic issue the stores need to deal with.

[manmanny]

Globe and Mail article about the bag ban: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/torontos-ludicrous-plastic-bag-ban-was-a-rush-move/article4238123/





really?? bags gonna be free next month? that's awesome, i will hoard as well.

From G&m link above.

"In any case, plastic bags are recyclable. You can toss them in the blue box for shipment to the recycling plant instead of the landfill. "
"by one estimate plastic bags take up less than 1 per cent of landfill space."

"If there are good, solid, factual arguments why there is no better option than banning plastic bags, fair enough. Let's hear them. Instead we got a rushed decision on a feel-good measure. "

So anybody opposing this decision make sure you got cloths on before you go out.

[flashy_mcflash]

Those motions usually do not have the same scale of influence to the whole city. It affects everyone (I am not talking about good or bad). I don't think they have thought about the logistic issue the stores need to deal with.

The stores will adapt, like everyone else. There is profit to be made on reusable bags now, so if they can get another buck out of people that forget theirs (or who don't want to use paper), I'm sure they won't complain.

[gman]

The stores will adapt, like everyone else. There is profit to be made on reusable bags now, so if they can get another buck out of people that forget theirs (or who don't want to use paper), I'm sure they won't complain.

They may but like anything that is in that scale, they should at least spend some time to investigate if it is really okay for stores instead of we think they should be okay.
Most small stores I know just want to give out plastic bag free for many reasons. Shoplifting prevention is one of them.

[flashy_mcflash]

They may but like anything that is in that scale, they should at least spend some time to investigate if it is really okay for stores instead of we think they should be okay.
Most small stores I know just want to give out plastic bag free for many reasons. Shoplifting prevention is one of them.

There's really no difference between the stores here and the stores in the many places that have banned plastic bags though. The big chains shouldn't have any problem since they can just see what is done in their own stores in LA, Seattle, etc. and the smaller stores will follow suit.

Businesses are very good at adapting to changing circumstances. Give them a little more credit.

[gman]

There's really no difference between the stores here and the stores in the many places that have banned plastic bags though. The big chains shouldn't have any problem since they can just see what is done in their own stores in LA, Seattle, etc. and the smaller stores will follow suit.

I am not saying they should not do it. I said they should do it properly like any issue that influence everyone in the city. Nobody likes to be stuffed something into their throats without being consulted even though the stuff may be 'good' stuff.

[manmanny]

"Two Canadians, Harry Wasylyk of Winnipeg and Larry Hansen of Lindsay, Ont., invented the disposable green garbage bag in the 1960s and sold the idea to Hansen’s employer, Union Carbide."

Its surprising why it was not popular in the country?

[manmanny]

http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/6674526.bin

[Xeros]

Doesnt the inside of that thing get gross without a garbage bag?

Probably... but you are allowed to wash it every now and then. They haven't banned that.

[rems]

I am not saying they should not do it. I said they should do it properly like any issue that influence everyone in the city. Nobody likes to be stuffed something into their throats without being consulted even though the stuff may be 'good' stuff.

Exactly! Even if stores were heading in that direction, maybe they needed more time to phase it out. At least include those being directly affected into the conversation before making a decision.

[Xeros]

What's your solution then? Milk crates waste space and slide around, how else do you propose to keep paper bags upright?

Do you know what those hooks are for your car? They didn't build them specifically for plastic bags. Ever hear of cargo nets?

http://www.hondapartssuperstore.com/images/lg/civic-sedan-cargo-net.jpg


/dispute about hooks not hooking paper bags.

[flashy_mcflash]

Exactly! Even if stores were heading in that direction, maybe they needed more time to phase it out. At least include those being directly affected into the conversation before making a decision.

The ban comes into effect in January. They have until then.

[Xeros]

Exactly! Even if stores were heading in that direction, maybe they needed more time to phase it out. At least include those being directly affected into the conversation before making a decision.

I'll have to agree... this is rather rushed. They should have just increased the bag price to $0.10 each... then people will gradually adapt instead of an INSTA-BAN.

[vero95]

I'll have to agree... this is rather rushed. They should have just increased the bag price to $0.10 each... then people will gradually adapt instead of an INSTA-BAN.

I agree. Ford told people ahead of time about revoking the 5c charge
there should be a procedure banning quick motions unless they are of high importance
that's unfortunate that other councillors (I mean other than Ford) do not have a common sense to know things like that. why such a push?

[rems]

The ban comes into effect in January. They have until then.

Yes I understand it's not immediate but they chose an arbitrary date. They didn't consult the grocery stores that this would affect if that was a good deadline. I don't know about you but when things affect me directly, I'd like to have a say in the decision - whether or not I get what I want.

[flashy_mcflash]

Yes I understand it's not immediate but they chose an arbitrary date. They didn't consult the grocery stores that this would affect if that was a good deadline. I don't know about you but when things affect me directly, I'd like to have a say in the decision - whether or not I get what I want.

Did Ford consult groceries about eliminating the 5c fee? Just because he blustered about it ahead of time does not suggest that he did any sort of research into it.

[flashy_mcflash]

there should be a procedure banning quick motions unless they are of high importance
that's unfortunate that other councillors (I mean other than Ford) do not have a common sense to know things like that. why such a push?

Why, so you can complain about how they're wasting time?

Just say it, you want a procedure to limit the motions you do not agree with. We all know what you're saying.

[woodstock827]

If the concern is environmental, why ban bio-degradable bags as well? Sure they may be more expensive, so just let the stores charge the customers more.

I really feel like they just did this to out of spike. :facepalm:

[flashy_mcflash]

If the concern is environmental, why ban bio-degradable bags as well? Sure they may be more expensive, so just let the stores charge the customers more.


Buy and bring your own biodegradable bags to the store then. Not that many stores were giving these out at the checkout to begin with.

[gman]

Did Ford consult groceries about eliminating the 5c fee? Just because he blustered about it ahead of time does not suggest that he did any sort of research into it.

Well, you don't know if Ford has consulted grocery stores in the past year. For one, Ford at least knows he could do that legally.

For this new ban, the Councillor just stood up to propose something which he himself did not even know he would propose until that particular moment. He does not even consider if the ban can be legally enforced. i.e. he did not consult the legal department to provide a proper motion. Right now, the legal expert said the ban bylaw may not be legal until another bylaw is passed first.

[mockingjay404]

someone set up an RFD poll so we can vote on it in here :)

[Rehan]

If the concern is environmental, why ban bio-degradable bags as well? Sure they may be more expensive, so just let the stores charge the customers more. Those bags were already banned a few years ago because they're incompatible with the recycling process.
http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/biodegradable_plastic.htm

[gman]

If the concern is environmental, why ban bio-degradable bags as well? Sure they may be more expensive, so just let the stores charge the customers more.

I really feel like they just did this to out of spike. :facepalm:

One of the reasons why they ban the bio-degradable bags too is not just about landfill. They don't want any type of plastic bags flying in the street, park, beach, etc.

[bullionaire]

Might as well ban paper/foam cups at coffee shops. I see them laying around on the street and they are as biodegradable as plastic bags.

Bring your own mug! :lol:

[gman]

Might as well ban paper/foam cups at coffee shops. I see them laying around on the street and they are as biodegradable as plastic bags.

Bring your own mug! :lol:

Shhhhhhhhh!

[rems]

Did Ford consult groceries about eliminating the 5c fee? Just because he blustered about it ahead of time does not suggest that he did any sort of research into it.

So two wrongs make a right? Why stop there? Eliminate take out from restaurants and ban any sort of take out container...

[flashy_mcflash]

Might as well ban paper/foam cups at coffee shops. I see them laying around on the street and they are as biodegradable as plastic bags.


Paper doesn't take 200 years to degrade.


So two wrongs make a right?

No, this is just plain ol' right :)

[rems]

No, this is just plain ol' right :)

So again, do you want to be consulted or at least have your voice heard regarding things that affect you directly? Is it "plain ol' right" if you're not?

[manmanny]

Those bags were already banned a few years ago because they're incompatible with the recycling process.
http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/biodegradable_plastic.htm

Good for envi but not good for business. Now the market is gone.

"Biodegradable plastics can ruin recycling markets. "
"It is crucial that the integrity of our plastic recycling contracts remain intact."
"The City generates over $20 Million per year from the sale of recyclables to help offset the cost of collecting recyclables. Bio plastics put a portion of this revenue at risk."

[manmanny]

So again, do you want to be consulted or at least have your voice heard regarding things that affect you directly? Is it "plain ol' right" if you're not?

as long as Ford is Mayor do it with or without consultation. All the decisions should be in favour of what Ford opposes.

[flashy_mcflash]

So again, do you want to be consulted or at least have your voice heard regarding things that affect you directly? Is it "plain ol' right" if you're not?

Nah, I'm just kidding but really how much research needs to be done when 1/4 of the world's countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_shopping_bag#Bans) have implemented some restriction or ban on plastic bags with no real ill-effects?

Businesses react to things like changing oil prices, shortages, and lots of other situations with ZERO notice. This is what they do best.

You elect a councillor to speak for you and represent you at Council, and a referendum is not needed for every issue. One thing I agreed with Ford on in his blubbering yesterday is that people need to be more aware of civic issues and who they are voting for when they cast a ballot.

[manmanny]

didn't see this coming from star. But it explains who is to blame.

"Toronto’s bag ban makes no sense and, although"

"Their decision touches virtually every retailer and shopper in the city. Yet councillors voted without an updated report from staff, without public consultation, without talking to businesses they were about to affect, without analyzing environmental impacts, without a legal review, and with no advanced notice. As a result, of course, they got it wrong."

"Forbidding merchants from selling or giving out thin plastic carrying bags, including biodegradable versions, doesn’t appear to make environmental sense. Paper bags that would replace them require more energy to produce and to transport, and can’t be put to use in as many alternate ways. "

"The legal status of prohibiting bags is uncertain, with opinions differing on whether Toronto has the power impose this change. Having the ban come into force on Jan. 1 next year leaves retailers relatively little time to prepare. And it’s sure to encourage consumer hoarding — especially since, as of July 1, merchants will no longer be required to charge a nickel for these bags."

"According to city hall’s statistics, plastic bag usage dropped by 53 per cent in Toronto following imposition of the fee — or about 242 million fewer bags each year. That’s a lot of litter."

Bu


"Mayor Rob Ford opposes it, he’s largely to blame."

[Toukolou]

didn't see this coming from star. But it explains who is to blame.

"Toronto’s bag ban makes no sense and, although"

"Their decision touches virtually every retailer and shopper in the city. Yet councillors voted without an updated report from staff, without public consultation, without talking to businesses they were about to affect, without analyzing environmental impacts, without a legal review, and with no advanced notice. As a result, of course, they got it wrong."

"Forbidding merchants from selling or giving out thin plastic carrying bags, including biodegradable versions, doesn’t appear to make environmental sense. Paper bags that would replace them require more energy to produce and to transport, and can’t be put to use in as many alternate ways. "

"The legal status of prohibiting bags is uncertain, with opinions differing on whether Toronto has the power impose this change. Having the ban come into force on Jan. 1 next year leaves retailers relatively little time to prepare. And it’s sure to encourage consumer hoarding — especially since, as of July 1, merchants will no longer be required to charge a nickel for these bags."

"According to city hall’s statistics, plastic bag usage dropped by 53 per cent in Toronto following imposition of the fee — or about 242 million fewer bags each year. That’s a lot of litter."

Bu


"Mayor Rob Ford opposes it, he’s largely to blame."

The first sensible thing I've seen come from the Star in a looooooooong time!

[manmanny]

25% of the world.


In February, San Francisco voted to extend its bag ban at large supermarkets and pharmacy chains to every retailer.

• Sioux Lookout was the first in Ontario.

• Wood Buffalo, Alta., and two others in Manitoba: Thompson and Snow Lake.

• The French island of Corsica was the first region in Europe, banning plastic bags in large stores in 1999.

• China, where the ban as in many places is on thin plastic carrier bags. On the ban’s one-year anniversary in 2008, the China Chain Store and Franchise Association estimated 40 million bags had been saved.

• Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Togo, Chad and Somalia in Africa, as well as Tanzania’s Zanzibar Islands, imposed bans although Rwanda had had the most notable success.

• Mumbai, India. However, a three-year attempt in New Delhi failed.

• The Mexican capital of Mexico City and the Burmese capital of Yangon.

• Twelve towns in Australia, starting with Sydney's Oyster Bay suburb as well as the states of South Australia, Tasmania and Northern Territory.

• Eleven other towns in the U.K., including Hay-on-Wye.

• A dozen California cities and towns, most recently Los Angeles. Elsewhere in the U.S.: Westport, Conn.; Edmonds, Wash.; Brownsville, Texas; Bethel, Alaska; North Carolina’s Outer Banks; Portland and Seattle.

• The American state of Hawaii, as of last month.

• County seats and main tourists areas in Tibet.

• In Europe, Italy is the only country that bans all non-biodegradable bags.

• The United Arab Emirates

• In South America, Buenos Aires and La Paz, Bolivia.

[Simaahoy]

I have been to several countries listed above and they still use plastic bags/not enforced.

[Rehan]

didn't see this coming from star. But it explains who is to blame. You forgot:

"Mayor Rob Ford predictably blamed “NDPers, used to the gravy train,” for this “ludicrous” mess. But the bag ban was put forward by Councillor David Shiner, one of Ford’s council allies, and backed by several members of his hand-picked executive committee."

"“It’s the people’s fault,” Ford said."

"In fact, this only happened because Ford put plastic bags on city council’s agenda in the first place."

[flashy_mcflash]

I have been to several countries listed above and they still use plastic bags/not enforced.

They didn't get them from a cashier though!

[manmanny]

You forgot:

"Mayor Rob Ford predictably blamed “NDPers, used to the gravy train,” for this “ludicrous” mess. But the bag ban was put forward by Councillor David Shiner, one of Ford’s council allies, and backed by several members of his hand-picked executive committee."

"“It’s the people’s fault,” Ford said."

"In fact, this only happened because Ford put plastic bags on city council’s agenda in the first place."

No I did not forget. But I did not post.
But Coming from NDPers Oooops I mean Rehan I can understand. But then it will be trolling or Political post.:razz:

[bullionaire]

Paper doesn't take 200 years to degrade.

It's paper cups, not just paper. Guess what makes them waterproof?

Exactly.

[Rehan]

No I did not forget. But I did not post.
But Coming from NDPers Oooops I mean Rehan I can understand. But then it will be trolling or Political post.:razz: :lol: So you selectively quote and resort to pejorative labeling when someone else does the same thing? :facepalm:

[Toukolou]

Did Ford consult groceries about eliminating the 5c fee? Just because he blustered about it ahead of time does not suggest that he did any sort of research into it.

Banning the COMPULSORY 5c fee does not preclude retailers from continuing to charge for bags. As a "free market" society, our retailers are still allowed to charge whatever the market will bear for anything in their store. Eliminating the 5c tax had no deleterious effect on the way they do business. On the other hand, banning the bags will have an impact on purchasing contracts retailers have with bag manufacturers as well as the current inventory of bags on hand. At the very least they could have consulted and come to a reasonable timeline that everyone could agree upon.


You forgot:

"Mayor Rob Ford predictably blamed “NDPers, used to the gravy train,” for this “ludicrous” mess. But the bag ban was put forward by Councillor David Shiner, one of Ford’s council allies, and backed by several members of his hand-picked executive committee."

"“It’s the people’s fault,” Ford said."

"In fact, this only happened because Ford put plastic bags on city council’s agenda in the first place."

Yes, don't you know it's always Rob Fords fault...

[Rehan]

Might as well ban paper/foam cups at coffee shops. I see them laying around on the street and they are as biodegradable as plastic bags.

Bring your own mug! :lol: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/499032--city-eyes-coffee-cup-bans (http://www.thestar.com/news/article/499032--city-eyes-coffee-cup-ban)


Yes, don't you know it's always Rob Fords fault... The Star seems to think so. I don't agree with them on that, but I was just presenting a more complete picture of the article someone else was quoting from.

[manmanny]

Yes, don't you know it's always Rob Fords fault...

Yes but when Rehan posts it then it matters from where RFD comes from. And his link explains the financial decision to ban bio ones.

[manmanny]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/499032--city-eyes-coffee-cup-bans (http://www.thestar.com/news/article/499032--city-eyes-coffee-cup-ban)

The Star seems to think so. I don't agree with them, but I was just presenting a more complete picture of the article someone else was quoting from.

So did Miller ban them?

[flashy_mcflash]

It's paper cups, not just paper, flashe. Guess what makes them waterproof?

Exactly.

Still not 200 years, bull. It simply does not take the same amount of time for a cup to degrade as a plastic bag.

[flashy_mcflash]

Banning the COMPULSORY 5c fee does not preclude retailers from continuing to charge for bags. As a "free market" society, our retailers are still allowed to charge whatever the market will bear for anything in their store. Eliminating the 5c tax had no deleterious effect on the way they do business. On the other hand, banning the bags will have an impact on purchasing contracts retailers have with bag manufacturers as well as the current inventory of bags on hand. At the very least they could have consulted and come to a reasonable timeline that everyone could agree upon.


Well I guess we will see if this has some catastrophic effect on business. I'm not sure what the effect on a contract is when the contracted service/product is made illegal. Personally I feel that this plastic bag issue is a minor inconvenience, at worst, to all involved parties and won't have much impact on the day-to-day business

Also, I imagine that the grocery stores have altered their contracts with the bag companies already since they are using about 50-70% less bags they used to (http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/533105/distribution-of-single-use-grocery-bags-decreases-by-70-per-cent-at-metro) as a result of the 5c fee.

[dirkpitt]

I applaud the ban and hope that more municipalities in Canada follow suit. I've seen enough plastic bags flying through the air during windstorms, hanging from trees and littering the landscape (and underwater) to understand why they are a nuisance and an eyesore. No... I'm not a treehugger or an environmental activist.

It seems that the strongest argument supporting the need for plastic bags is the difficult in hauling home ON's bags of milk, which to me is just a bizarre way of selling milk in the first place. Here in Alberta, milk has been sold in cartons and 4L jugs (with a free handle!! :)) for as long as I can remember, and as of June 1, 2009 the provincial government imposed a deposit on the containers (http://www.milkcontainerrecycling.com/AB/deposit-refund-system.htm) to enforce recycling.

"Swish, and squish!" (if you don't, the smell of rotten milk is always wonderful :eek:) Perhaps ON needs a similar system?

[bullionaire]

Still not 200 years, bull. It simply does not take the same amount of time for a cup to degrade as a plastic bag.

That must be true in your mind, but I found this. :arrowd:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cup#Environmental_impact


A life cycle inventory of a comparison of paper vs plastic cups shows environmental effects of both with no clear winner.[11]

A study of one paper coffee cup with sleeve (16 ounce) shows that the CO2 emissions is about .11 kilograms (.25 pounds) per cup with sleeve - including paper from trees, materials, production and shipping.[12] The loss of natural habitat potential from the paper coffee cup (16 ounce) with a sleeve is estimated to be .09 square meters (.93 square feet).[13]

Over 6.5 million trees were cut down to make 16 billion paper cups used by US consumers in 2006, using 4 billion US gallons (15,000,000 m3) of water and resulting in 253 million pounds of waste.[14]

Very little recycled paper is used to make paper cups because of contamination concerns and regulations. Because most paper cups are coated with plastic, both composting and recycling of paper cups is uncommon.[14]

Although paper cups are made from renewable resources (wood chips 95% by weight), paper products in a landfill may not decompose, or may release methane if decomposed anaerobically. The manufacture of paper usually requires inorganic chemicals and creates water effluents.

Paper cups may consume more non-renewable resources than cups made of polystyrene foam (whose only significant effluent is pentane).[15][16]


*********************

Also, what are lids made with, *****? Are they degradable, too?

[flashy_mcflash]

That must be true in your mind, but I found this. :arrowd:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cup#Environmental_impact

Also, what are lids made with, flashe? Are they degradable, too?

Holy confirmation bias. We have already covered anaerobic decomposition in here and it applies to everything, including hot dogs. And the fact that people don't recycle the cups is not a design flaw in the cups, it just means we need to get people to recycle them.

You can recycle the lids now, I believe.

Sorry bully, you'll have to do better next time. Or try to do a little less cherrypicking next time.

Alternately, you can use the next few hours to calm down and figure out a way to get your milk home without having an aneurysm.

[zonetbh]

Holy confirmation bias. We have already covered anaerobic decomposition in here and it applies to everything, including hot dogs. And the fact that people don't recycle the cups is not a design flaw in the cups, it just means we need to get people to recycle them.

You could say the exact same thing about plastic bags.

[flashy_mcflash]

You could say the exact same thing about plastic bags.

True. And I would, in regard to the plastic bags that people will continue to use as they are only going to be banned IN ONE PLACE.

Honestly, you plastic bag fetishists should visit a Wal mart sometime. Practically a whole aisle of plastic bags, yours for the taking! This move is really aimed at attaching a price to these bags so people don't use them once and throw them out. It will make people really think about how many bags they are using, and that's a good thing, bros.

[manmanny]

:lol: So you selectively quote and resort to pejorative labeling when someone else does the same thing? :facepalm:

When is "Ford blaming everything on NDP" is news/secret?

He does that every second he lives. :facepalm::facepalm:
You don't post obvious things. What you post in unimaginable from Star.

[mrperfect]

Thread derailed into Political bickering/Name calling despite previous reminders.
It was a good debate... Lets move on :!: