Raw food for pets?

[Antec7]

Anyone here feeding their pets raw food made for dogs ie Instinct brand?

The owner of a pet store was listing off the pros, but id like to hear other opinions about it.

Thanks

[rob4321]

I think I've posted this link previously but it has some good information.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/raw-meat-and-bone-diets-for-dogs-its-enough-to-make-you-barf/

"The argument that dogs are designed by their evolutionary history to eat raw meat based diets is riddled with errors and fallacies and ignores the impact of tens of thousands of years of domestication and cohabitation with humans on the physiology of our canine friends. The accusations that commercial dog foods are nutritionally inadequate or unsafe are not supported by any objective or scientific evidence, only anecdotes, intuition, and conspiracy theories. There is, in contrast, significant evidence that commercial dog foods are nutritious and healthy and that they have contributed to greater longevity and reduced nutritional and infectious disease morbidity of dogs fed these diets.
The benefits promised by advocates of BARF diets for dogs are numerous. Greater health, less disease, better quality of life, and much more. Dr. Billinghurst’s web site even claims, “Eating bones for a dog is a joyous experience. It is so enjoyed by dogs that it actually of itself boosts their immune system.” However, there is absolutely no scientific evidence to support these claims. BARF proponents have no shortage of opinions and anecdotes to demonstrate the benefits of their diets, but they have a severe shortage of data.

The risks of raw meat based diets, however, are well-documented. Homemade diets and commercial BARF diets are often demonstrable unbalanced and have severe nutritional deficiencies or excesses.16-18 Dogs have been shown to acquire and shed parasitic organisms and potentially lethal infectious diseases associated with raw meat, including pathogenic strains of E. coli and Salmonella.25-27 Many other pathogens have been identified in raw diets or raw meat ingredients, and these represent a risk not only to the dogs fed these diets but to their owners, particularly children and people with compromised immune systems.29-30 The bones often included in such diets can cause fractured teeth and gastrointestinal diseases, including obstructed or perforated intestines, and the FDA recently warned pet owners against feeding bones to their canine companions."

[Punisher]

If you're gonna go RAW I wouldn't go for the pre-made stuff as it gets pretty pricey. My dog's been on RAW and is much healthier than when he was on kibble. In fact, we've had no issues since switching.

For every article against RAW I can show you two or three for.

[DreamyKelley]

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on a RAW diet for cats too.

:)

[HandsomeRob]

We fed Natural Instincts premade Raw for a few months, stopped because he got sick from something else and it was making the problem worse.

Pro's:
Half as much to pick up afterword.
He has food allergies that pop up from time to time, on Raw never saw a trace.
He loves the stuff.

In between
In terms of nutrition, is it better or worse than the Acanna he eats now? I don't know. I think dog food is turning into religion.

Con's
Pricey.
More work sterilizing bowls & such after each meal, defrosting, keeping track.
90% of vet's will hate you and ask why you are not feeding Hills SD.

We didn't start with it again for financial reasons, we have some other priorities we would like to accomplish before the dog gets his luxury diet again. But I would certainly do it again.

[BornRuff]

Your dog will be perfectly healthy with good quality and properly selected traditional dog food.

Raw diets will at best be just as good traditional dog food, and at worst could make your dog sick if not properly handled.

[RemedialChaosTheory]

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on a RAW diet for cats too.

:)

www.catinfo.org

[Antec7]

thanks for the great feedback.

how about the freeze dried food? does anyone ffeed that to their dog?

[Shaner]

Your dog will be perfectly healthy with good quality and properly selected traditional dog food.

Raw diets will at best be just as good traditional dog food, and at worst could make your dog sick if not properly handled.

I somewhat disagree. I'm not saying good quality kibble isn't a healthy choice because these days it is, but it doesn't mean a dog will be healthy on it even if it is a good food. Dogs have a lot of allergies, some dogs can't handle grain or certain types of fillers that seem to be in a lot of kibbles. By switching to a raw food diet you can control exactly what is and isn't in the dogs food. There's no by-products, no fillers and no grain. It's much easier to control what a dog eats while on a raw diet.

I feed my dogs Acana and they do just fine on it, but I know if I had a dog with a very sensitive stomach, instead of dealing with constant diarrhea and hoping to trace down the ingredient(s) that were causing the issues, I would just switch them to raw.

[BreTan]

A couple of months ago l switched my cats over from the grocery store wet/dry foods, to a "better" quality rotation of grain-free canned foods and whole-prey diet. l started with mice only until they realize that it is actually food, lol, then l'll add more variety.
So far l'm not seeing any of the benefits l expected. One cat has gained a little weight, the other has lost a little. They're both skinny breeds and are slim to start with. My previous 2 cats lived to be 21 and 18 on the cheap grocery store diet, with no medical issues, so maybe the hype about grains and veggies in the carnivore diet is counter-marketing.

[Catherine111]

We have to admit it that raw foods are the species appropriate diet for dogs and cats.I have also started to give the raw diet to my dog as he were suffering with allergies and digestion problems.

[tsat]

I somewhat disagree. I'm not saying good quality kibble isn't a healthy choice because these days it is, but it doesn't mean a dog will be healthy on it even if it is a good food. Dogs have a lot of allergies, some dogs can't handle grain or certain types of fillers that seem to be in a lot of kibbles. By switching to a raw food diet you can control exactly what is and isn't in the dogs food. There's no by-products, no fillers and no grain. It's much easier to control what a dog eats while on a raw diet.

I feed my dogs Acana and they do just fine on it, but I know if I had a dog with a very sensitive stomach, instead of dealing with constant diarrhea and hoping to trace down the ingredient(s) that were causing the issues, I would just switch them to raw.

This is exactly why i started feeding my dog raw... Constantly getting the runs, ear infections, and the final straw was panosteitis that would pop up every few months and cause him to limp. After the first few vet visits, medication, and vet food it was far cheaper to go raw. I haven't been back to the vets in a year for anything other than annual, routine stuff.

Within a week both my wife and I immediately noticed his coat became much softer and shinier, the limping from pano stopped (but he's outgrown that now anyways), and he's never lethargic (occasionally was prior to raw). He's just over a year now and his teeth are so white it's usually the second thing people notice about him, being a chocolate lab his teeth contrast with his coat so differently that it's hard not to notice lol.

My experience has been %100 good and believe me i was skeptical at first. I've had a complete blood profile done on my dog after a few months of feeding him raw and everything checked out great.

If you're reading an article that talks like all commercial kibble is nutritious and healthy i wouldn't really consider it credible. There's some really bad dog kibble out there, not to mention that many kibbles are manufactured to be as cheap as possible with the main ingredient is a starch or carb or already processed meat. That being said there ARE good kibbles but they're generally not the ones you know about because they aren't heavily advertised.

I have a hard time taking nutrition advice from a vet because in my experience it's been if they don't approve of the food you're feeding you get recommended hills SD but look at the ingredients:



Large breed puppy formula
Lamb Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Whole Grain Wheat, Whole Grain Sorghum, Brown Rice, Liver Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Soy Protein Isolate, Soybean Oil, Dried Beet Pulp, Fish Oil, Lactic Acid, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Potassium Citrate, Powdered Cellulose, L-Lysine, Dried Chicken Cartilage, Vitamin E Supplement, Potassium Chloride, minerals (Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, L-Tryptophan, L-Threonine, L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

Now look at a quality kibble from orijen:

Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, sweet potato, peas, fresh boneless turkey*, chicken fat, (preserved with mixed tocopherols), fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish* fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, fresh boneless herring*, organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium. *

* DELIVERED FRESH, preservative-free and never frozen

Which one would you eat if you had to choose?

I know that a dogs nutritional needs are different from people but there's a glaring difference in the ingredients list there.

You need to ignore the folks that only advocate for their method of feeding and deride the other. Dogs have been fed raw for a long time, it's only becoming a fad now so there's plenty of nutters acting like it's a miracle cure for everything which isn't true. It helped in my case but i was just so fed up with trying to figure out what my pups issue was that i just did what was easiest.

If i switched to something like orijen/acana I'd be taking a gamble that i wouldn't be cleaning up a mud puddle in my living room shortly after. I don't gamble because i always seemed to get kicked in the nuts when i do.

[TheHans]

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on a RAW diet for cats too.

:)

Go to holisticat. Check out the forums. I'm doubtful you'll find anywhere better when it comes to discussing holistic cat care.

[TheHans]

If you go to Nature's Variety, there are a variety of coupons available if you sign up for their mailing list. In fact, if you sign up you will get a coupon for a significant amount off a raw variety right off the bat. That goes for their dog and cat foods.

[hipfan1]

I've been feeding my dogs raw for almost a year now, and I couldn't be happier. It is so much better for them; they have more energy, their coats are way nicer and their poop is way smaller. While there are some "decent" kibbles out there, you pay a premium for them, and you can do raw for the same, sometimes cheaper, than the expensive kibble.

Also, most of the material that discredits raw food diets is produced by the large kibble companies (Mars, etc) or organizations directly funded by them. There's a huge conflicts of interest and you have to watch for that with the pet food industry. Even Vet schools are funded by these companies, so vets are often "educated" by the corporations, which is problematic to say the least.

Check out the books "Raw Meaty Bones" and "Works Wonders" if your looking for info on raw food, they totally changed how I feed my dogs and I would never go back to kibble.

[goombella]

If you go to Nature's Variety, there are a variety of coupons available if you sign up for their mailing list. In fact, if you sign up you will get a coupon for a significant amount off a raw variety right off the bat. That goes for their dog and cat foods.

If you go with nature's variety commercial raw, be advised that their raw is not completely balanced, their percentage of bone is too high and they add vegetables, which cats have no use for. So I wouldn't go exclusively with nature's variety but it would be ok if it was added to a rotation of other things. It's kind of expensive too.

[upsydaisy]

I think I've posted this link previously but it has some good information.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/raw-meat-and-bone-diets-for-dogs-its-enough-to-make-you-barf/

"The argument that dogs are designed by their evolutionary history to eat raw meat based diets is riddled with errors and fallacies and ignores the impact of tens of thousands of years of domestication and cohabitation with humans on the physiology of our canine friends. The accusations that commercial dog foods are nutritionally inadequate or unsafe are not supported by any objective or scientific evidence, only anecdotes, intuition, and conspiracy theories. There is, in contrast, significant evidence that commercial dog foods are nutritious and healthy and that they have contributed to greater longevity and reduced nutritional and infectious disease morbidity of dogs fed these diets.
The benefits promised by advocates of BARF diets for dogs are numerous. Greater health, less disease, better quality of life, and much more. Dr. Billinghurst’s web site even claims, “Eating bones for a dog is a joyous experience. It is so enjoyed by dogs that it actually of itself boosts their immune system.” However, there is absolutely no scientific evidence to support these claims. BARF proponents have no shortage of opinions and anecdotes to demonstrate the benefits of their diets, but they have a severe shortage of data.

The risks of raw meat based diets, however, are well-documented. Homemade diets and commercial BARF diets are often demonstrable unbalanced and have severe nutritional deficiencies or excesses.16-18 Dogs have been shown to acquire and shed parasitic organisms and potentially lethal infectious diseases associated with raw meat, including pathogenic strains of E. coli and Salmonella.25-27 Many other pathogens have been identified in raw diets or raw meat ingredients, and these represent a risk not only to the dogs fed these diets but to their owners, particularly children and people with compromised immune systems.29-30 The bones often included in such diets can cause fractured teeth and gastrointestinal diseases, including obstructed or perforated intestines, and the FDA recently warned pet owners against feeding bones to their canine companions."

Fantastic post, thanks for the info. I alternate between raw and Orijens kibble myself because I can't find anything definitive that raw is better. It's always the same argument that wolves in the wild eat raw. Good to read that wolves in captivity live longer and eat dog kibble.

[hipfan1]

Fantastic post, thanks for the info. I alternate between raw and Orijens kibble myself because I can't find anything definitive that raw is better. It's always the same argument that wolves in the wild eat raw. Good to read that wolves in captivity live longer and eat dog kibble.

The last section of the post regarding bones inaccurate; in fact, even kibble manufactures recommend feeding dogs bones for good dental hygiene. And wolves in captivity live longer because they have vet care, no predators etc, not because of kibble.

[upsydaisy]

The last section of the post regarding bones inaccurate; in fact, even kibble manufactures recommend feeding dogs bones for good dental hygiene. And wolves in captivity live longer because they have vet care, no predators etc, not because of kibble.

Which study has isolated the reason why wolves live longer? Has any study shown kibble to be detrimental to wolves in captivity?

[hipfan1]

Which study has isolated the reason why wolves live longer? Has any study shown kibble to be detrimental to wolves in captivity?
Taken from:http://redwolves.com/rwc/downloads/other/redwolf_Q%26A.pdf

How long does a wolf live? In the wild, not much longer than 7
years – that is, if they manage to survive their first winter. Sixty percent
of wolf pups die before they are a year old. Wolves get kicked by their
prey, they succumb to parasites and diseases like distemper and canine
parvo-virus, they die of starvation, or they may be killed by other wolves
or by humans. In captivity, wolves can live to be 15 or occasionally even
older – just like dogs.

[penipitcher]

Thanks hipfan1 for the article and the clarification. You're right and it also makes sense logically. Captive wolves, for example in zoos, have access to vets/zookeepers who will monitor their health and provide vaccination/medicine if needed whereas wolves in the wild are subject to hunting, injuries and/or diseases leading to death etc. Their longevity is not necessarily related to only one factor such as diet. It's not uncommon to see the longevity of captive animals surpass their wild counterparts for these very reasons.

As for the topic at hand, I raw feed my dog entirely and my 2 cats are on half-raw, half no-grain canned. My raw diet consists of raw beef, chicken, quail with bones/organs and boneless salmon. He gets freeze dried liver treats too. The basic rules are 80% meat, 10% bones, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organs. I got a very small dog so his 5% secreting organs is more or less taken care of by the organs from the quail. You can feed a number of other things including lamb, rabbit, venison etc. The pre-made raw contains ground bone which is good but you won't get any dental benefits out of that plus you won't be able to tweak the bone content. If you see the stool get runny, you can increase the bone whereas if they're constipated then you can decrease the bone.

Dogs are scavengers, aren't too picky compared to cats, and they can deviate from a strict carnivore diet. Cats are obligate carnivores, IE: they are strict carnivores requiring no vegetables or grains. Cats can also be picky and more work to deal with if they fall ill. Just to be on the safe side, I have them on a half raw/half no grain canned mix. I also rotate the proteins between meals so they don't get picky. Some owners I know feed whole mice which is a complete meal. I'm too squeamish for that.

If you feed no dry kibble to a cat, you don't have a need for water fountain to provide moisture. Cats take in water along with their food. I mix some water into their canned food to increase the intake.

To address the fear of salmonella and other bacteria issues with handling raw meat. it's just the same as humans. Be diligent about washing down all their dishes after meals. I also trained mine to eat on top of a plastic table mat which can be washed with detergent afterwards. This'll prevent anything from accumulating on the floors and spreading.

As pointed out by others, dogs and cats can have food allergies and commercial foods often contain allergens in them like grains, certain proteins (some dogs are allergic to chicken), or flax (some dogs are allergic to that too). Sometimes they vomit/diarrhea or develop skin irritations. With feeding raw, you know exactly what they're eating and through the process of elimination, you can figure out what they're allergic to. As well for cats, a common ailment is crystals in the urine/struvite crystals. A raw diet will help prevent this from happening. Once they develop crystals, peeing out side the litter box is a regular side effect.

[upsydaisy]

With feeding raw, you know exactly what they're eating and through the process of elimination, you can figure out what they're allergic to.

Good post, if your dog has upsets then a self-prepared raw diet is a great way to control what's going in.

My problem with the whole raw vs kibble debate is that people keep quoting wolf studies as if dogs and wolves are identical. All evidence I've read shows they diverged 10,000+yrs ago. If wolves can survive on kibble in captivity it shows me that scavengers are able to adapt. Then there's the argument that vets learned very little about dog nutrition in school and there's a conflict of interest with them selling Science Diet etc. I'd like to believe that vets engage in lifelong learning and do read about nutrition after they leave vet school. Is there a conflict of interest when they sell kibble, probably, but you either trust their opinion or disregard their advice on ALL matters completely - does it make sense to half-trust a professional. My current vet advises me to try raw and a high quality kibble and see what works for my dog.

To the OP, in my rotation I use Natural Instincts raw and freeze dried. My dog does well on it.

[penipitcher]

Scavengers adapt, yes. As I said, dogs aren't finicky like cats. However, I rather feed a raw diet where I know exactly what I'm feeding. Kibble can contain the dead, diseased, dying, disabled animals. They can also contain roadkill and shelter animals who've been euthanized.

As I've learned, makers of major dog/cat food brands will 'donate' to vet schools, sometimes even having a rep in the schools educating. As well, in vet clinics, you'll see Hill's/Science Diet on the shelves which they get a profit from so it's in their best interest to promote that food. Obviously they're going to tell you that it's dangerous to feed a homemade or raw diet because they won't be making any money off you. In a way, it's just vets looking out for themselves. They have to make money somewhere as their practise is not subsidized like human health care system.

Some vets are starting to doubt the validity of the education provided at the vet schools such as: Lisa Pierson of catinfo.org, so there is still some hope. Of course it feels wrong to doubt a professional who supposedly has more schooling in their area of expertise than the average person but not all professionals know everything there is to know. Even for yourself as a human, if you were diagnosed with an ailment, it wouldn't be unusual to seek a second opinion.

[highvibes]

We feed prey model raw and it works for us. our dog is small and I have access to fresh, naturally raised meat so it works for us My sister also feeds her cat PMR and it's the only one I'm not allergic to FWIW