Dog fight - what is my liability

[Cytosol]

I enrolled my 3-year old yellow lab in a daycare course, and he got into a scrap with another dog during the last day (a few weeks ago). The other dog was barking at mine, mine pulled and the leash snapped. My dog ran towards the other and they got into a 2-second scrap; I pulled them apart immediately. My dog HAS done this before, where he bolts for another dog, but in all previous situations he just wants to play; he absolutely loves other dogs. If you have ever owned a lab, you will probably understand. I believe the fight was instigated by the aggression of the other dog, but it is hard to say for certain what was going on in their minds.

The other dog ended up with a gash on its front leg (I believe from my dogs dew claw), which the daycare owners and class teacher (both with canine first aid training) determined the wound did not warrant a vet visit, and could be treated at home. It was purely a flesh wound, with no nerve or vein damage. The owner of the other dog decided to take him to an emergency vet and ended up with a $700 bill.

Since the daycare did not release my personal information, the owners of the other dog gave the daycare the vet bill to give to me. Their intentions of providing this to me was not clear, but I believe they feel I should pay for some or all of this bill.

Before anyone jumps down my throat about having a dangerous dog, my lab has been attending weekly daycare since he was 6 months old. Corroborated by my daycare, he has not once shown aggressive tendencies towards other dogs. The other dog regularly had to be removed from the class because it showed aggression. My dog regularly played with the other dogs in the class, even wrestled with a tiny Chihuahua with the utmost amount of care and gentle nature. I feel absolutely awful that this happened, but I also understand dogs get into fight and this sort of thing does happen.

I am posting this to ask what my liability is here. The daycare has washed their hands of this, as everyone has to sign release forms to bring their dogs in; fairly standard. My leash snapped, and the other dog ended up with injury. However, if my dog ended up injured and not the other one, would they then be liable? Does the history of aggression for each dog come into play?

In my opinion, the wound did NOT justify an emergency vet visit. On 3 separate occasions, my dog received rather serious looking wounds during daycare. Only once did I bring him to a vet, and it was to treat a 3-inch deep open gash on his torso, from the nail of another dog. I brought him to my regular vet, who cleaned and treated it with a $200 vet bill. That being said, it is not up to me or anyone else to judge how people want to treat their pets.

As I said, I feel absolutely terrible this happened. Even though I do not believe I am at fault, I would like to do the right thing and write an apology letter, and provide a couple hundred dollars to help subsidize the vet bill. A couple hundred might not seem like much to some people, but this basically means me eating ramen noodles for the next month! My worry is that if I do write an apologetic letter and provide money, I am basically admitting that it was my fault, in turn would be sufficient evidence to sue me for the remaining amount (possibly including additional damages and care). I don’t know these people, and I would like to think that a sincere gesture would be satisfactory, but I might be opening myself up for legal problems down the line.

So what do you guys think I should do? Even though I might not technically be liable, I still want to do the right thing and show at least that I care about what happened, but don’t want to open myself up to any legal problems.

[Kohanz]

Trying to approach this as objectively as possible:

1) Whether a vet visit was warranted is not really up to you. When some people get in a fender bender, you always have some saying "Aw, it's only a scratch, you don't need to do anything" or "I know a guy who will fix this for really cheap, take it to him". Bottom line, it is totally the dog owner's right to decide what level of care is needed for the dog. If the tables were turned, I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate the other owner telling you how to take care of your dog.

2) Again, approaching this like a car accident (which may be the wrong approach, but what do I know), we have to determine who is at fault. Based on the fact that the leash snapped (e.g. if you had a better leash, this wouldn't have happened) and that your dog ran over to the other dog (which makes him the "aggressor" - not barking, which lots of dogs do without attacking).

In my opinion, if you want you can offer to split the bill and see how reasonable the other owner is. However, I don't think the other owner would be out of line to ask that you pay for the majority of the bill. Put yourself in their shoes.

[ishfish]

If you want to do things legally - most lawyers will do a free half hour consultation and that may answer your questions.

Legally and morally are not always the same. And that is up to you. If you wish to pay some or all maybe they would take it in smaller payments so that you are not eating ramen noodles.

If you decide to pay a smaller amount or nothing and they want all, they can take you so small claims.

[Cytosol]

Thanks for your objective response. It's hard to put myself in their shoes and see it their way however. If it was the other way around, I would have shrugged, said "dogs will be dogs" and put some polysporin on the wound. Not that I don't care about my dog, but he's gone through much worse injury.

My take on this is that if this had happened in a public area, such as a park, and my dog ran, the leash snapped or slipped out of my hand, and injured another dog; it would be ENTIRELY my fault. However, this occurred in a private obedience class. The other dog had a history of aggression, and I assume the owners knew that. Enrolling their dog was sort of asking for trouble.. I looked at the waiver and it even stated that aggressive dogs should not be enrolled in the class.

Hopefully that better explains where I am coming from. I’m not trying to find reasons to push off blame, but just better explain my viewpoint.

[BornRuff]

It seems pretty clear that your dog was at fault in this. Don't bother trying to talk about previous behavior when talking to the other owner, because it could easily just come off as an insult to them, and not help your case.

Even though the incident is your responsibility, it is within your rights to wonder if the vet trip, and the amount spent, was really necessary. Anyone has the right to take their pet to the vet anytime they want. It is not always the other person's responsibility to cover those costs though. If he went to a really high end vet or had services done that were not absolutely necessary, then they should be covering that difference.

Why do you think this was 700 bucks but it only cost you 200 when you went to the vet for a cut on your dog?

[ishfish]

Why do you think this was 700 bucks but it only cost you 200 when you went to the vet for a cut on your dog?

Personally I would have a hard time paying emergency fees if the wound did not warrent it and if the not warrenting was obvious from the beginning (which it sounds like it was to others).

[d182]

It seems pretty clear that your dog was at fault in this. Don't bother trying to talk about previous behavior when talking to the other owner, because it could easily just come off as an insult to them, and not help your case.

Even though the incident is your responsibility, it is within your rights to wonder if the vet trip, and the amount spent, was really necessary. Anyone has the right to take their pet to the vet anytime they want. It is not always the other person's responsibility to cover those costs though. If he went to a really high end vet or had services done that were not absolutely necessary, then they should be covering that difference.

Why do you think this was 700 bucks but it only cost you 200 when you went to the vet for a cut on your dog?

The incident itself was your fault (due to the leash breaking). But the owners of the other dog should've advised you that they were considering bringing it to a vet seeing as how we can debate whether or not that vet trip was even necessary. If I were you OP, I'd wouldn't be too pleased based on the fact that the bill came out of nowhere. They should've consulted with you regarding the vet and you guys could've worked something before the vet visit.

[peanutz]

My take on this is that if this had happened in a public area, such as a park, and my dog ran, the leash snapped or slipped out of my hand, and injured another dog; it would be ENTIRELY my fault. However, this occurred in a private obedience class. The other dog had a history of aggression, and I assume the owners knew that. Enrolling their dog was sort of asking for trouble.. I looked at the waiver and it even stated that aggressive dogs should not be enrolled in the class.
But this aspect is the daycare's fault for allowing that dog to stay, not necessarily the owners'.

I think the best chance for you to avoid potential legal activity is to try to split the bill 50:50... This seems fairest as both sides could have done something to prevent this. Your story is understandable as it sounds like the other dog is the instigating aggressor (hearing barking makes even me anxious and testy; in dog language the other dog was probably "inviting" your dog to the fight) but it is also true that not all dogs attack another dog that is barking at them and your leash did break.

You could try to contact the other owners and say that you regret the incident but you only have X amount of money, but we don't know how they will be like. Also, an apology isn't necessarily an admission of guilt; however, in terms of accountability the truth is, there are ways in which this could have been prevented on your end (not saying you did "wrong" but unfortunately part of the accident involved your leash.)

[Cytosol]

Their vet bill was high because it was a 24/7 emergency vet, which is off the bat more than twice as expensive as a regular vet. The dog was also sedated, stitched up and provided with $200 worth of antibacterial medication. The wound was not actively bleeding, and the opinions of the daycare were that it didn't even need veterinary attention, let alone EMERGENCY vet attention. Keep in mind, the daycare sees dog wounds on a daily basis and is able to effectively judge if it warrants medical attention or not.

Like I said, a comparable wound at my vet (with a scheduled, non-emergency visit) costed around $200 for a quick cleaning and stitch-up. I bought a tube of polysporin and 2 weeks later you could barely see the wound. This is why i'm considering paying a couple hundred, but I do not believe the emergency visit was in any way justified.

[peanutz]

Their vet bill was high because it was a 24/7 emergency vet, which is off the bat more than twice as expensive as a regular vet. The dog was also sedated, stitched up and provided with $200 worth of antibacterial medication. The wound was not actively bleeding, and the opinions of the daycare were that it didn't even need veterinary attention, let alone EMERGENCY vet attention. Keep in mind, the daycare sees dog wounds on a daily basis and is able to effectively judge if it warrants medical attention or not.

Like I said, a comparable wound at my vet (with a scheduled, non-emergency visit) costed around $200 for a quick cleaning and stitch-up. I bought a tube of polysporin and 2 weeks later you could barely see the wound. This is why i'm considering paying a couple hundred, but I do not believe the emergency visit was in any way justified.No one's stopping you from acting on your convictions and if you were to take these arguments to court the judge may indeed side with you.

Still wouldn't prevent the lawyer fees that might go with it.

You decide what is a reasonable strategy to try to mitigate and/or handle the situation, because none of us are arguing about the medical issue (we haven't seen the wound, nor have any of us come forward as vets) and we don't know how reasonable the other side is.

[hugh_da_man]

Their vet bill was high because it was a 24/7 emergency vet, which is off the bat more than twice as expensive as a regular vet. The dog was also sedated, stitched up and provided with $200 worth of antibacterial medication. The wound was not actively bleeding, and the opinions of the daycare were that it didn't even need veterinary attention, let alone EMERGENCY vet attention. Keep in mind, the daycare sees dog wounds on a daily basis and is able to effectively judge if it warrants medical attention or not.

Like I said, a comparable wound at my vet (with a scheduled, non-emergency visit) costed around $200 for a quick cleaning and stitch-up. I bought a tube of polysporin and 2 weeks later you could barely see the wound. This is why i'm considering paying a couple hundred, but I do not believe the emergency visit was in any way justified.

In all fairness, you have no idea what the extent of the injury was. The wound could have started bleeding again at home or appeared worse after the non-experts at the daycare saw it.

If your dog got away from you and injured someone else's animal that was under their control at the time then you're responsible. Your opinion of what's reasonable for treatment isn't valid because you have no idea how bad the injury was other than what you and the daycare non-experts saw. If the injury was nothing then the vet wouldn't have sedated the dog and stitched it up.

Personally, I'd pay the bill before they complain to someone and YOUR dog becomes the one with a history of aggression. That and if they take you to small claims court I don't think you'd win the case by claiming their dog was the aggressor when your dog was the one that broke it's leash and attacked.

[kindred_99]

I would be careful. I wouldn't write any letters or agree to pay anything as they could use that against you later on. From you said you are being completely reasonable. Everyone signed waivers at the facility and that is where the incident occurred. If the owners of the other dog had contacted you or asked the facility to contact you and given you an estimate before going to the vet I could understand them trying to figure out something where costs are split but they acted independently and against the recommendation of the doggie day care which didn't see the need for a vet visit. They were perfectly within their rights to go to a vet but regardless of the cost they pay for it. By agreeing to pay even some of it you are claiming some guilt and they could go after you for who knows what down the road. What if the bill was $1000? $5000? If the dog was not bleeding or in need of immediate/emergency care they could have checked with you before going to a vet. Don't write anything, don't admit to any wrongdoing and ignore the invoice. If they want to sue you in small claims court I can't see them winning anyway.

[Cytosol]

That’s exactly the predicament I’m in… I would have already written an apologetic letter and sent some money if I wasn’t so worried about what sort of a legal position this would put me in. It’s frustrating as hell that I want to do the right thing and offer my sympathy and offer to cover some of the bill, but the second I do this I am potentially setting myself up for being sued.

Maybe they will accept this gesture as satisfactory now, but they might change their minds in a couple months and come after me to cover who knows what else? More medication? Physio bills? Dog therapy? Again, I don’t know these people and don’t know what their intentions are. I would like to believe that they are reasonable, but now a days you can’t simply assume these things.

[Ottomaddox]

That’s exactly the predicament I’m in… I would have already written an apologetic letter and sent some money if I wasn’t so worried about what sort of a legal position this would put me in. It’s frustrating as hell that I want to do the right thing and offer my sympathy and offer to cover some of the bill, but the second I do this I am potentially setting myself up for being sued.

Maybe they will accept this gesture as satisfactory now, but they might change their minds in a couple months and come after me to cover who knows what else? More medication? Physio bills? Dog therapy? Again, I don’t know these people and don’t know what their intentions are. I would like to believe that they are reasonable, but now a days you can’t simply assume these things.

The right thing is to pay the bills they incurred because of your dog.

[feelthedeal]

I agree with some of the others that legally they would probably have little recourse (if you do a bit of footwork).

However, I agree with some of the other posters that this is more due to the release forms and the nature of somewhat assumed liabilities from using a venue that involves multiple animals.

Regarding the vet, I think the other person was in their right to take the dog to the vet, assuming they understand its at their own cost until proven otherwise. I do not think the day care was in any place to begin giving advice on the extent and treatment/non-treatment of an injury, as they're not trained or licensed vets. The idea that you think it's fine because they see injuries often has no bearing on their legal ability to give advice in that situation.

Regardless, I think in this situation you could walk away without paying anything if you really wanted.

[hugh_da_man]

I agree with some of the others that legally they would probably have little recourse.

However, I agree with some of the other posters that this is more due to the release forms and the nature of somewhat assumed liabilities from using a venue that involves multiple animals.

Usually the release forms you sign at daycares protect the daycare and their workers from being sued, not the owners of the individual animals. OP was in control of his own dog, not a worker at the daycare.

How would they have little recourse legally?

[kindred_99]

What if the bill is $5000? What if you pay them and they show up a week later saying the dog needed more care and its another $5000? Go to court if you have to, get a quote from a couple of other reasonably priced vets for the same services before hand (you have their invoice so you know what they were charged for what) but don't agree to pay for anything beforehand. Once they can say that you agreed to pay something or that you agree to some responsibility there's no going back. The doggie day care people (who might not be vets themselves but probably have enough experience with these things) said there was no need to but these people went to an expensive vet and they want you to pay for it. If they wanted to spend that much on their own that is fine but they can't force you to. If you go to a restaurant and there's a $5 burger and a $100 burger you will most likely buy the $5 burger. If for some reason your meal was comped by the restaurant you could have anything on the menu you would take the $500 burger, that's how people are. Its different when you pay for something on your own.

[Ottomaddox]

I agree with some of the others that legally they would probably have little recourse.

However, I agree with some of the other posters that this is more due to the release forms and the nature of somewhat assumed liabilities from using a venue that involves multiple animals.

Regarding the vet, I think the other person was in their right to take the dog to the vet, assuming they understand its at their own cost until proven otherwise. I do not think the day care was in any place to begin giving advice on the extent and treatment/non-treatment of an injury, as they're not trained or licensed vets. The idea that you think it's fine because they see injuries often has no bearing on their legal ability to give advice in that situation.

Regardless, I think in this situation you could walk away without paying anything if you really wanted.

I think this is pretty much what the OP wants to hear.

[Cytosol]

I think this is pretty much what the OP wants to hear.

Shut the hell up. I have lost nights of sleep over this incident, I feel absolutely f*cking horrible that it happened. I want to make right and offer what I can to the dogs owners, which is why i'm posting here. The reason I made this post is to ask if I am opening myself up to further legal problems when I apologize and offer to help pay some of the vet bills. If I simply wanted to wash my hands of any responsibility like you suggest, I would have just torn up the vet bill and went on my way.

[ishfish]

Why don't you just call a lawyers office and ask for a free half hour consult - most will do this. Or in Calgary the law students have free consultation hours - I do not know if it is still on in June though.

[Shaner]

I've had dogs all my life. Long ago I had 2 huskies that were both very dog aggressive. I absolutely couldn't let them near other dogs, leashed or not, or it would turn into a fight. I took a lot of precautions to keep them away from other dogs. I now have 2 German Shepherds that love other dogs, so I see both sides of the equation.

With that said, I think you are 100% at fault. Even dog aggressive dogs should be able to go to classes. During classes, dogs are supposed to be kept on leash at all times. You didn't use an appropriate leash for your dog, and that caused the leash to snap. Your dog was off leash, the aggressive dog wasn't.

With that said, if you forced them to take you to court, they'd probably back down and just pay the bill themselves. So if you're looking for a way out, you can probably get away without paying anything. If you want to do the right thing, explain to them that you take responsibility for the leash snapping, but you think $700 is excessive due to the nature of the cut. Offer to pay half the vet bill and explain that if they want the rest, they'll have to take you to court for it.

[danfromwaterloo]

I think you'd be crazy not to take this to a lawyer, but if you want opinions that are not legally binding:

Do nothing.

Wait to see what comes from it. Them giving a bill to you or the daycare does not constitute that you must pay or are even responsible for it.

They didn't have to take the dog to an emergency vet, and I doubt highly that any reputable vet would charge $700 to treat a cut, unless you're minimizing the damage your dog did. Maybe the dog started knawing on his own leg and made the initial cut substantially worse. You don't know the facts of what transpired other than what happened when you were there.

Morally speaking, your dog did the damage to the other dog, so if you wanted to flex your strong moral fibres, you should pay at least a portion of it. It would be up to you to determine what a reasonable amount would be. Find out the work that was done to the other dog, and check with your veterinarian to find out what a reasonable amount for those services would be. I personally would pay half of what my vet would say. Now, if you're glossing over what happened and your dog actually mauled the other, I would pay all of it. Depends on the events of the case. If the dog's life is in jeopardy, they have every right to take the dog to the emergency vet to get it addressed, but if they were just being stupid, you shouldn't have to pay for that.

[Punisher]

Your dog was the aggressor in this case since he's the one that charged the other dog. This doesn't mean that your dog is aggressive however. These things happen and nobody was seriously injured. If this happened at the doggie daycare facility then they should have insurance to take care of it. Sure, the would rather not have to go through insurance as their rates will increase but at the end of the day that's what it's for.

Personally, I wouldn't pay.

[danfromwaterloo]

Shut the hell up. I have lost nights of sleep over this incident, I feel absolutely f*cking horrible that it happened. I want to make right and offer what I can to the dogs owners, which is why i'm posting here. The reason I made this post is to ask if I am opening myself up to further legal problems when I apologize and offer to help pay some of the vet bills. If I simply wanted to wash my hands of any responsibility like you suggest, I would have just torn up the vet bill and went on my way.

Part of the reason why you should check with a lawyer is that offering to pay for a bill (or actually paying it) would or could constitute an act of guilt that they could press upon you to pay the whole amount. I don't know, it could happen.

[kindred_99]

Part of the reason why you should check with a lawyer is that offering to pay for a bill (or actually paying it) would or could constitute an act of guilt that they could press upon you to pay the whole amount. I don't know, it could happen.

Exactly. Watch any episode of Judge Judy and you will see people fall into this trap all the time. "I offered to pay half"......"but it was all your fault so you pay it all". Its like someone owing you money, it is better for them not to have ever paid you a penny than to have paid half because the penny proves that they owe you the money, not paying at all proves nothing.

I'm not saying that it wasn't the OP's fault or that his dog wasn't responsible but the vet amount is too much. If you get into a car accident that is your fault with someone driving a 1985 Toyota they can't get it fixed and slap with you with a bill for $30,000 just because it was your fault. Its about being reasonable and fair. If these dog owners wanted platinum vet care they can pay for it themselves. The fact that the people at the doggy day care didn't think a vet visit was necessary is significant as they likely deal with such cases regularly.

[RolandCouch]

TLDR BUT

If the dog was in the care of the daycare and you were not there, I would hold them responsible. Especially if he snapped their leash. Not your fault.

[Syne]

Their vet bill was high because it was a 24/7 emergency vet, which is off the bat more than twice as expensive as a regular vet. The dog was also sedated, stitched up and provided with $200 worth of antibacterial medication. The wound was not actively bleeding, and the opinions of the daycare were that it didn't even need veterinary attention, let alone EMERGENCY vet attention. Keep in mind, the daycare sees dog wounds on a daily basis and is able to effectively judge if it warrants medical attention or not.

Like I said, a comparable wound at my vet (with a scheduled, non-emergency visit) costed around $200 for a quick cleaning and stitch-up. I bought a tube of polysporin and 2 weeks later you could barely see the wound. This is why i'm considering paying a couple hundred, but I do not believe the emergency visit was in any way justified.

There's no such thing as $200 worth of antibacterial medication, unless they needed an ice cream tub full of the stuff. Vets, and especially the 24/7 operations are notorious for ridiculous markups on medication. I'm not talking about 50% either, try more like 1400% and you're starting to get the picture. They pay $15 for a tube of cream, and charge $200 to resell it.

I don't agree that you should be forced to support this business model, as it is fairly controversial. I'd personally see the amount of the bill as a principle sticking point and I applaud you for even offering up the $200. I know I couldn't afford that without a visit to Money Mart.

As others have mentioned, I'd be wary about giving my personal info to this person. If you like, give an envelope to the Day Care with the money but ask to remain anonymous. This way, you can do what you feel is right, without this coming back to bite you later.

[kindred_99]

There's no such thing as $200 worth of antibacterial medication, unless they needed an ice cream tub full of the stuff. Vets, and especially the 24/7 operations are notorious for ridiculous markups on medication. I'm not talking about 50% either, try more like 1400% and you're starting to get the picture. They pay $15 for a tube of cream, and charge $200 to resell it.

I don't agree that you should be forced to support this business model, as it is fairly controversial. I'd personally see the amount of the bill as a principle sticking point and I applaud you for even offering up the $200. I know I couldn't afford that without a visit to Money Mart.

As others have mentioned, I'd be wary about giving my personal info to this person. If you like, give an envelope to the Day Care with the money but ask to remain anonymous. This way, you can do what you feel is right, without this coming back to bite you later.

Do not give cash to anyone, certainly not anonymously and without any proof that you did. I'm surprised anyone would suggest that after mentioning the crazy overcharges mentioned above. If it happened at the doggy day care let them take care of it. If everyone signed waivers the point is moot anyway, just move on and don't be taken advantage of. Who knows what they will come up with later on once they know you admitted to any guilt. People will try things hoping they work and preying on the kindness/gullibility of others. Don't fall for it.

[hugh_da_man]

Shut the hell up. I have lost nights of sleep over this incident, I feel absolutely f*cking horrible that it happened. I want to make right and offer what I can to the dogs owners, which is why i'm posting here. The reason I made this post is to ask if I am opening myself up to further legal problems when I apologize and offer to help pay some of the vet bills. If I simply wanted to wash my hands of any responsibility like you suggest, I would have just torn up the vet bill and went on my way.

Just noticed you were in Calgary. I'd be even more careful as the bylaws are ridiculously painful for people who have animals that injure another person or animal and the other people might report that the injury was due to a bite which would be devastating. It doesn't matter if the attack was at a private daycare, it can still be reported but you might be safe now that it's been a little while since it happened.

Good luck OP but I hope you can figure out a way so everyone is happy with the result.

[aplayaz2000]

looks like a job for
judge judy...


well i mean owning a dog has it's responsibilities
such as paying for medical bills if it attacks another dog

[HandsomeRob]

In the scope of "Nothing to lose" I would forward this story to the company that manufactured the leash. Be interesting to see what they have to say.

And if buying made in China leashes from Petsmart I would probably stop.

[Ojam]

Just ignore it.