RIM Considering Breaking up Company

[setell]

WOW guess I was right as the downwards slope continues while it's trading below $10 today on the TSX. Looks like they really have to make a decision quick at the rate the stock prices are declining. Doesn't help that Morgan Stanley downgraded them to a "sell" position. I knew that RIM will only last as long as they can hold on via cash position wise but I'm still sad at how a once great company is crumbling because it's previous CEOs was arrogrant asses. Now they are left with the question: what can I sell? :(

http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Blackberry+maker+Research+Motion+considers+splitti ng+business+report/6835376/story.html
http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1216666--rim-downgraded-by-morgan-stanley-on-deteriorating-fundamentals?bn=1

[rfdrfd]

they have patents, and maybe even their OS with its security? That's about the only asset they really have. But that's basically their bread and butter.

Their hand-set sucks, UI sucks, market share sucks.

Earnings are coming out this week too, forgot which date. I'd take any stock jump up price due to this "news" to short this sucker to $0 !

[Mark77]

Sad to see this happen, for another industry-leading Canadian company to reach its demise because of what appears to be managerial incompetence. Just like John Roth attempted to cultivate a cult inside Nortel, it appears Ballsile and Lazardis did the same, wasting their efforts on philanthropy, rather than staffing up with the best engineers to keep their products out in front.

[geeEx]

Small screens, crappy cameras, poor performance, terrible apps, no innovation, no surprise why they went downhill. I'm surprised they didn't make a horizontal slider like the Desire Z. I really wish they would have stuck in though because from the looks of it Windows phones aren't picking up too much and we are left with Google and Apple.

[Hairball]

When their "co-CEO" spends years trying to get an NHL team (and failing at the end), clearly the priority wasn't the company.

[JK400]

Good ****ing riddance

[mikeymike1]

When their "co-CEO" spends years trying to get an NHL team (and failing at the end), clearly the priority wasn't the company.

Sadly, with all the recent ceo shuffling Balsillie made that bigger idiot Bettman look like the hero

[Xiaohaibao]

Sad to see this happen, for another industry-leading Canadian company to reach its demise because of what appears to be managerial incompetence.
It's not just managerial incompetence... RIM employees are far from the best. It's well known RIM is easy to get into if you have a good friend or relative working there, and hard to get into other wise. Unlike apple, amazon, ibm, google, etc which hire base on your ability.

Latest predictions say up to 90% of RIM employees to be fired: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57459748-94/analyst-sees-rim-losing-90-percent-of-workers/

If you live in KW now is time to sell your house while you still can! 400k house will be 200k a year from now in waterloo.

[Mark77]

It's not just managerial incompetence... RIM employees are far from the best.
...


I would suggest that the failure to hire 'the best' employees in a highly competitive business, is an example of managerial incompetence.

From personal experience, as someone who, with his own money, went to Waterloo and met with RIM's HR staff at a career fair, they did literally nothing to determine my skill and aptitude level for the jobs I said I was interested in.


Unlike apple, amazon, ibm, google, etc which hire base on your ability.

Hardly, those firms receive 1000+ resumes per job, and interview maybe a dozen from the stack. The selection process ends up being relatively random at those firms as well, although perhaps not so overtly based on nepotism or just hiring from UW.

[ZackP]

I don't agree with previous posts. RIM phones have a lot going for them. I don't understand how their marketing can't pick up some direction and push it. RIM phones have:


Excellent reception, maybe best in business
Excellent keyboard, best in business
Excellent battery life
Easy to use
Decent camera
All needed apps
Nice design
Tens of millions of existing customers
Women followers (users)
Governments hooked up on their e-mail and messaging
They are very durable


Oh I forgot big one!: e-mails messages are encrypted so nobody intercepting them can read them! I read that RIM has given codes to India so they can spy on their own citizens. BIG MISTAKE, I would never do that!


I believe that they have way too many models and their marketing is almost non existent (in media). They should reduce company overhead and push forward. Customers already having Blackberry will come back for more.

[SkimGuy]

Read about this on the wall street journal today... Sounds like they're going to miss earnings projections and with it is another nail in the coffin...

[mc_molineux]

Everyone knew that this summer was going to be brutal for them as they are in between products. It's a race against time now to get the new phones and OS out before they run out of the money. Who knows if they can do it or not, but it's not over until they either throw in the towel and sell because they've run out of cash, or Blackberry 10 is a dismal failure.

If they can regain a bit of market share with the new phones, at the rate the smartphone industry is growing, 3rd place should be good enough for them to survive. A small piece of a big pie is better than the big piece of a small pie that they had 5 years ago.

[noob666]

I don't agree with previous posts. RIM phones have a lot going for them. I don't understand how their marketing can't pick up some direction and push it. RIM phones have:


Excellent reception, maybe best in business
Excellent keyboard, best in business
Excellent battery life
Easy to use
Decent camera
All needed apps
Nice design
Tens of millions of existing customers
Women followers (users)
Governments hooked up on their e-mail and messaging
They are very durable



I believe that they have way too many models and their marketing is almost non existent (in media). They should reduce company overhead and push forward. Customers already having Blackberry will come back for more.

aren't all the phone are the same now day ?

they have not improve anything from like hmmmm.......so many years, nothing ground breaking at least

that's why they are just like another NT

that's why there stock price trade under $10 which apple is an trillion ahead of them (even samsung is a better company)

[Mark77]

aren't all the phone are the same now day ?

Not really. The points given above are still quite valid. Android or Apple devices don't have, and probably never will, the same level of comprehensive middleware or security framework already possessed by the RIM devices. The problem is that the market for such features is comparatively small, maybe a few million phones at best, compared to the billion+ device market.

[Syne]

I will take user developed software over RIM-approved middleware any day of the week. Windows and Android provide me with options. New stuff is coming out all the time.

[adamtheman]

RIM is done. Goose cooked. They have spent sp much time developing their own blackberry OS software, and no one wants it. There's no developers for it. It's the worst case scenario of all. How sad. Another elite canadian technology company bites the dust.

If there's one upside, however, it is that no one will likely notice or care. Why? Because the majority of canadians (MOC) still don't know what the hell "RIM" is.

ME: "Hey, did you hear... RIM went bankrupt today"
MOC: "What's RIM?"
ME: "Research in motion..."
MOC: "Uhm... is that a wheelchair company or something?"
ME: "No.. what?... it's... they make blackberry phones"
MOC: "OHHH, Blackberry went bankrupt?"
ME: "No, RIM, the company who makes Blackberry went bankrupt"
MOC: "Oh. I see. So Blackberry and RIM are the same thing?"
ME: "Yes... well... no, not really. Blackberry is a PRODUCT, made by the COMPANY RIM"
MOC: "........................ so... did you hear about Angelina and Brad?"

[Mark77]

I will take user developed software over RIM-approved middleware any day of the week. Windows and Android provide me with options. New stuff is coming out all the time.

Syne, that might work quite well for your free-standing environment, but if you were an enterprise customer..

To those people, the lack of a dozen versions of Angry Bird, or the costly "App[le] Stores" of the Apple products are actually a turn-off. Enterprise IT managers generally don't want end-users installing stuff on their devices. Some organizations have fairly stringent audit requirements which can't really be met by the competitors.

[houska]

People seem to be looking for a villain - "management sucked" / "the product sucks". I just think it's natural life cycle for a company of this sort. You cannot achieve a long-term sustainable market position based on product in the high tech industry, especially on the consumer end of the value chain. The very investment in building out and perfecting something great leaves you vulnerable to be overtaken by the next generation innovator who leapfrogs you. For a while you stifle them, but eventually they relegate you to niche status for those who really value some of the design choices you made and that the innovators decided to jettison.

That's what has happened to RIM. Their product was world-class. But they never had the mass market sewn up and Apple and Android-based systems eventually came up with a better non-legacy product for today's mass market. An enterprise-class communicator was never going to remain a leader in the youth market.

What we need to do as investors is stop believing in the long-term dominance of product-based companies. The ones that have a true culture of innovation and regeneration deserve large valuations. For the rest, they're cash cows for a certain unknown period of time - but the moment we start assigning them a significant continuing terminal value or long term growth rate, we need to be very careful. Balsillie, Lazaridis, Reims didn't royally screw up - they just fit the pattern. We just wanted to believe there was a real innovator under the hood, even though we honestly had no reason to. There have only been a handful of tech companies that were innovative over several product generations and have demonstrated a culture and vision to reinvent themselves; RIM just seems to not be one of them.

Just as it was overbought, RIM may now be oversold. They should have real option value in case their niche is bigger than thought, their technology/patents more valuable, or their next generation impresses the heck out of us. But it's a risky play (one which I'm not making, since that type of play is now not part of my investment strategy)

[setell]

Well I would say that if management had taken innovation more seriously then they may have had a better fighting chance. Look at the launch of the Playbook, huge embarrassment in my books as it was truly a half ***** job. Took forever to get basic native email and even then it’s inferior to iOS in my books. They have not produced any innovative product in quite a while. Banking on previous success will be a silent killer as the competition catches up and blindside you to take over your position in the market. First iphone was launched in 2007 and 5 years later they haven’t produce a product with that type of appeal. They should have realized years ago that you cannot be around forever based on enterprise. Lack of foresight considering they should have learned how an ipod can turn the fate of Apple around and that appealing to the mass consumer may not be such a bad idea.

I do agree they are probably being shorted like crazy with all the negative news being released. I hope their new products will be enough to sway customers back to them. Like somebody mentioned earlier, a third place for a bigger piece of the pie is a lot better than first place at a smaller pie.

I wish I had more time this week to plough through their Q1 financials that’ll be released on the 28th. Would love to listen to that conference call they will be hosting.

[Hairball]

Not really. The points given above are still quite valid. Android or Apple devices don't have, and probably never will, the same level of comprehensive middleware or security framework already possessed by the RIM devices. The problem is that the market for such features is comparatively small, maybe a few million phones at best, compared to the billion+ device market.

I've found these days these devices are driven by pure marketing hype. While I have never owned a RIM product, they can carve out that niche they have by focusing on the business market. When it was "cool" that regular people started using BlackBerry phones and going on BBM, I have to say they lost focus of everything.

iPhones and Androids are more of something targetted to the end user, the consumer, which is an important market, but not the only.


Well I would say that if management had taken innovation more seriously then they may have had a better fighting chance. Look at the launch of the Playbook, huge embarrassment in my books as it was truly a half ***** job. Took forever to get basic native email and even then it’s inferior to iOS in my books. They have not produced any innovative product in quite a while. Banking on previous success will be a silent killer as the competition catches up and blindside you to take over your position in the market. First iphone was launched in 2007 and 5 years later they haven’t produce a product with that type of appeal. They should have realized years ago that you cannot be around forever based on enterprise. Lack of foresight considering they should have learned how an ipod can turn the fate of Apple around and that appealing to the mass consumer may not be such a bad idea.

I guess the iPhone was fairly innovative at the time, however Apple was hardly the first to create a touchscreen phone, but you have to hand it to them with their creative marketing and focusing on the ease of use, which is not what most technology tends to focus on. I remember late 90s/early 00s my dad had a BB from work with email and I was downright amazed at how cool it was.

But is it necessarily a problem that they are focused on enterprise? That was what their focus was, you can't be everything to everyone. There isn't necessarily one device fits all or one platform fits all in technology. Is it really in their interest to be a company full of hype like Apple?

[Mark77]

But is it necessarily a problem that they are focused on enterprise? That was what their focus was, you can't be everything to everyone. There isn't necessarily one device fits all or one platform fits all in technology. Is it really in their interest to be a company full of hype like Apple?

Hype or not, Apple can spread the R&D effort over a huge number of phones while RIM has certainly lost that market forever. I believe it would be easier for Apple or even Android to eventually architect in the comprehensive security framework/features that RIM offers, than it would be for RIM to build up a developer ecosystem.

I remember Apple pushing the Apple Student Developer program heavily, where students could obtain Apple hardware and software at heavily subsidized rates. Aside from a BlackBerry being a door prize at a Nortel student event, circa 2000-2001 -- I've never heard of RIM doing much to reach out to the potential developer community.

[blainehamilton]

As a Blackberry user for more than a decade for work, I can't wait for the company to fold and to be moved to a modern Android/iOS device fast enough.

Don't get me wrong, for basic text based communication, snapping a couple of crappy pictures and videos, and checking some html based email, it works well enough. If that's all you need for work, it'll do the job.

Web surfing is a painful experience. Screen is too tiny. Forget about decent image quality from the camera. And apps? What are those?

Sure, the Blackberry was the cat's meow in 2000-2006. Too bad Rim has shown little ability to keep up with demand for technology advances and application support since that era.

The keystone is the security of the BBM service. As soon as a 3rd party vendor gets it's act together and develops a high level security application for Android and iOS with worldwide coverage to allow the same seamless integration Rim has, it's game over for the Blackberry.

[confused]

A lot of people will be loosing RIM jobs soon... it must feel great for some, not so much for others.. depends on their preferences

[Neovingian]

Hype or not, Apple can spread the R&D effort over a huge number of phones while RIM has certainly lost that market forever. I believe it would be easier for Apple or even Android to eventually architect in the comprehensive security framework/features that RIM offers, than it would be for RIM to build up a developer ecosystem.

I remember Apple pushing the Apple Student Developer program heavily, where students could obtain Apple hardware and software at heavily subsidized rates. Aside from a BlackBerry being a door prize at a Nortel student event, circa 2000-2001 -- I've never heard of RIM doing much to reach out to the potential developer community.

I've hear dthat BB Devs actually make more money on BB Platform than any other, not sure how this can be true when it has a smaller userbase. Also RIM did embrace devs by inviting them to the Developer conference BB10 Jam and offer devs $10,000 for maping apps for the upcoming B10 OS.

aren't all the phone are the same now day ?

they have not improve anything from like hmmmm.......so many years, nothing ground breaking at least

that's why they are just like another NT

that's why there stock price trade under $10 which apple is an trillion ahead of them (even samsung is a better company)

Yes Samsung is a better company but its not fair to compare it to RIM, Sammy sold more deivices than apple last year, which menas they also sold more than RIM.

A lot of companies are better off than RIM, they are fighting an uphill battle they may not win, at least not in my lifetime.

[Asoul]

Looks like RIM is going the way of the Palm. That is sad for me, I had loved my Palm Pilots and I love my Blackberry and I don't need a massive screen or fancy apps, I use my phone as a phone and communcation device and I need buttons! I love how my phone pairs with my Playbook. I agree that now a days everything is about hype and marketing and people wanting the latest and greatest.

[rfdrfd]

Looks like RIM is going the way of the Palm. That is sad for me, I had loved my Palm Pilots and I love my Blackberry and I don't need a massive screen or fancy apps, I use my phone as a phone and communcation device and I need buttons! I love how my phone pairs with my Playbook. I agree that now a days everything is about hype and marketing and people wanting the latest and greatest.

I'm a Palm fan as well !! I'm actually using a Palm pixi right now that my friend gave to me as a gift. Touchstone and all. But even that, they've lost their old Palm most useful capability. Like Security per record, and Memo, and universal search !!

I used to be able to find, say "this guy I met at a Las Vegas conference a few years ago... what was his name again??" On my Palm Centro/Pilot, I would type in the FIND: vegas , then ALL occurrences of this word would come up, and if this guy's name came up in the results in Contacts, I tap on that and I would see in his Contact notes, I wrote: "met in Las Vegas conference 2002". I can no longer do that !!!

[rfdrfd]

A lot of people will be loosing RIM jobs soon... it must feel great for some, not so much for others.. depends on their preferences

If only they all shorted their company's stock. They'd all be rich.

then again, they probably have some rules not allowing that (but only if they got audited hehe)

[setell]

But is it necessarily a problem that they are focused on enterprise? That was what their focus was, you can't be everything to everyone. There isn't necessarily one device fits all or one platform fits all in technology. Is it really in their interest to be a company full of hype like Apple?

Look at the valuation of Apple vs RIM and you tell me which company has their act together. Apple has more cash than the US treasury at this moment. The golden rule: cash is king. Innovation does not mean you have to have the best product but can be other things like your ability to sell your product. Don’t underestimate the power of being able to market your products and carve out a brand. Jobs has successfully made it insanely “cool” to own an Apple product. You can have the best product in the world but without a talented team of marketers you are not going to get that full penetration you want. Apple made a product so user friendly that even computer illiterate people can use. I can’t give my playbook to my computer illiterate dad and have him pick it up as fast as an ipad. That’s the difference between full market penetration vs staying in your niche market that is shrinking as we speak.

I hated the BB (and only one) I got years ago in 2003 as email/texting was nasty since my fingers were fat, scrolling was hard, and BBM isn’t my thing. Fast forward almost a decade and I’m still hearing the same complaints. Honest, they had nearly a decade to make improvements. You would think they would listen loud and clear in the mid 2000’s.


If only they all shorted their company's stock. They'd all be rich.

then again, they probably have some rules not allowing that (but only if they got audited hehe)

Would depend on their stock option agreement. It looks bad to short your own employer LOL

[brunes]

Sad to see this happen, for another industry-leading Canadian company to reach its demise because of what appears to be managerial incompetence. Just like John Roth attempted to cultivate a cult inside Nortel, it appears Ballsile and Lazardis did the same, wasting their efforts on philanthropy, rather than staffing up with the best engineers to keep their products out in front.

For the record - the problems at RIM never had anything to do with engineering at all. The problems started at the top and ended at the top - stupid decisions and stupid execution. Had nothing to do with hiring the right engineers, had to do with hiring the right managers and getting rid of the top. Too bad the change came far too late.

Everything that RIM engineering was told to do, they always did very well. The problem is they were told to do stupid things at stupid times.



Aside from a BlackBerry being a door prize at a Nortel student event, circa 2000-2001 -- I've never heard of RIM doing much to reach out to the potential developer community.

RIM sent every person who ported their Android application to BB App World a free Playbook. I would say that is a pretty good reach-out to the community.

Again - this is not the problem, at least not anymore. The problem is - RIM is now way too late to the game - in fact they were late to the game in 2009 and 2010, when the writing was already on the wall, and any tech-savvy consumer could see it coming, even though the analysts could not. Upper management failed to recognize the changing landscape around them, and it destroyed them. It is too bad because BB 10 is actually a great looking OS - the problem is, that is now irrelevant. There is not enough market for four viable app ecosystems - even three is a stretch. Why do you think the global market consolidated on Windows and Mac in the '90s? It is not because IBM did not employ smart people, or BeOS was a bad OS, or that OS2/Warp was a bad OS - it was because of poor decisions and poor execution compared to Microsoft.

[Asoul]

For the record - the problems at RIM never had anything to do with engineering at all. The problems started at the top and ended at the top - stupid decisions and stupid execution. Had nothing to do with hiring the right engineers, had to do with hiring the right managers and getting rid of the top. Too bad the change came far too late.

Everything that RIM engineering was told to do, they always did very well. The problem is they were told to do stupid things at stupid times.



RIM sent every person who ported their Android application to BB App World a free Playbook. I would say that is a pretty good reach-out to the community.

Again - this is not the problem, at least not anymore. The problem is - RIM is now way too late to the game - in fact they were late to the game in 2009 and 2010, when the writing was already on the wall, and any tech-savvy consumer could see it coming, even though the analysts could not. Upper management failed to recognize the changing landscape around them, and it destroyed them. It is too bad because BB 10 is actually a great looking OS - the problem is, that is now irrelevant. There is not enough market for four viable app ecosystems - even three is a stretch. Why do you think the global market consolidated on Windows and Mac in the '90s? It is not because IBM did not employ smart people, or BeOS was a bad OS, or that OS2/Warp was a bad OS - it was because of poor decisions and poor execution compared to Microsoft.

I agree with everything that was said above, RIM made good products but were way too late to the game. I never had a bad blackberry and quality was always top notch and I think the Playbook was rushed out before it was ready for the general public, the hardware was good.

[slim_shady]

Thanks, I needed a laugh today! So many self-proclaimed experts in this thread have things all wrapped up in a neat bow. Confirmation bias is running full steam in here.
It'll be fun to see what these same 'experts' say in 9 months :razz:

[time space]

Thanks, I needed a laugh today! So many self-proclaimed experts in this thread have things all wrapped up in a neat bow. Confirmation bias is running full steam in here.
It'll be fun to see what these same 'experts' say in 9 months :razz:

Do you have a prediction for that time frame? ...or is no conjecture the only acceptable response?

[Cerenity]

lol the funny thing is when my friend bought RIM stock around 40, i told him it was going to 20. when it had that huge drop into the high 20s, and bounced off of it, he didnt believe me, until it kept sliding and hit 20. i re-evaluated the updated news and financial situation and told him it was going under 10. now he calls me a prophet. hahah

i wouldnt short the stock any more here, but rather just watch it all play out, but it was kind of funny to see my predictions actually come true, like a 'prophet' that got lucky :p

while there is a good probability the company will go BK, there is also a chance someone will be dumb enough to buy them. probably not for more than 10-15 per share though


i dont buy the keyboard advantage because its like your grandma in the 90s complaining computers were too complex for her.

RIM is so focused on enterprise, they overlooked that for ecosystem products that are both used at home, and at work, enterprise, at least at the employee interfacing level, will adapt and use what consumers want to use. proof of this is demonstrated with all the companies beginning to support employees using android and apple phones instead of their BBs

[Hairball]

Look at the valuation of Apple vs RIM and you tell me which company has their act together. Apple has more cash than the US treasury at this moment. The golden rule: cash is king. Innovation does not mean you have to have the best product but can be other things like your ability to sell your product. Don’t underestimate the power of being able to market your products and carve out a brand. Jobs has successfully made it insanely “cool” to own an Apple product. You can have the best product in the world but without a talented team of marketers you are not going to get that full penetration you want. Apple made a product so user friendly that even computer illiterate people can use. I can’t give my playbook to my computer illiterate dad and have him pick it up as fast as an ipad. That’s the difference between full market penetration vs staying in your niche market that is shrinking as we speak.

I hated the BB (and only one) I got years ago in 2003 as email/texting was nasty since my fingers were fat, scrolling was hard, and BBM isn’t my thing. Fast forward almost a decade and I’m still hearing the same complaints. Honest, they had nearly a decade to make improvements. You would think they would listen loud and clear in the mid 2000’s.



Would depend on their stock option agreement. It looks bad to short your own employer LOL

It's pretty obvious that RIM has made serious mistakes. They could've worked things out better to their advantage by meeting the needs of their core customers better.

As good as the mass market is, I can foresee there will be continued demand for advanced technical products for enthusiasts. Yes, Apple products are known for ease of use, but they are also well known for severe restrictions on what you can do on them. Their approach is a walled garden approach is a travesty in my opinion, and lots of tech enthusiasts will feel the same way.

It's like the desktop PC market, everyone has been calling it "dead" for the last 5-10 years. Sure, people might not buy preassembled PCs as much, but lots of people are still buying PC parts. It's less important than what it once was, but it isn't insignificant.

You can crunch numbers and all, but understanding how technology works is a little more than a few financial statements. It's just part of the picture.

[taro-chan]

All I have to say is, this sounds like Nortel all over again. And I worked at Nortel before we got declared bankruptcy and sold off to different companies. it's going to be a slow painful death

[Korozive]

Sorry but when is the next Q release ?

[mc_molineux]

Sorry but when is the next Q release ?
Tomorrow after markets close.

[setell]

Sorry but when is the next Q release ?

Webcast tomorrow at 5pm ET if you want to attend:

http://www.rim.com/investors/events/

[brunes]

Thanks, I needed a laugh today! So many self-proclaimed experts in this thread have things all wrapped up in a neat bow. Confirmation bias is running full steam in here.
It'll be fun to see what these same 'experts' say in 9 months :razz:

Not sure what to make of this. Are you saying you expect RIM to turn around and in 9 months be anywhere near $20 / share?

[slim_shady]

Not sure what to make of this. Are you saying you expect RIM to turn around and in 9 months be anywhere near $20 / share?

Well, share price is a crapshot because the market is anything but rational and given their sentiments about RIM it will lag significantly (understandably too, of course).
General adoption, brand perception, app availability, sales, that's the area I expect to be improved in 9 months. However, this is assuming that RIM can continue to pull off their long overdue shift in thinking and approach... they've finally got their heads out of their asses and are getting developers on board, and finally getting that it's a consumer's market... as long as those positive traits are continued as they have been in the past months there is no doubt that RIM will continue to be a major player (although likely a 3rd place player, but given the market size that's no shame and can be a benefit if played correctly).

(then again, it's not like I'm stocking up on more RIM shares right now :razz:)

[setell]

Well, share price is a crapshot because the market is anything but rational and given their sentiments about RIM it will lag significantly (understandably too, of course).
General adoption, brand perception, app availability, sales, that's the area I expect to be improved in 9 months. However, this is assuming that RIM can continue to pull off their long overdue shift in thinking and approach... they've finally got their heads out of their asses and are getting developers on board, and finally getting that it's a consumer's market... as long as those positive traits are continued as they have been in the past months there is no doubt that RIM will continue to be a major player (although likely a 3rd place player, but given the market size that's no shame and can be a benefit if played correctly).

(then again, it's not like I'm stocking up on more RIM shares right now :razz:)

I would love to see RIM gain some traction as they seem to be on a slippery slope instead. I don't know enough about the market since I only follow it as a hobby but it's freaking hard to crawl your way up vs go down. Especially in a 9 month time frame from ~$9 to $20! That is quite the achievement then if RIM can do it! Plus brand issue is very hard to fix in such a short period of time. As to apps, last time I was at the app store with my playbook it was really bad.

[mc_molineux]

I would love to see RIM gain some traction as they seem to be on a slippery slope instead. I don't know enough about the market since I only follow it as a hobby but it's freaking hard to crawl your way up vs go down. Especially in a 9 month time frame from ~$9 to $20! That is quite the achievement then if RIM can do it! Plus brand issue is very hard to fix in such a short period of time. As to apps, last time I was at the app store with my playbook it was really bad.

If it went down because of the shorts, then it can go up just as fast.

[setell]

If it went down because of the shorts, then it can go up just as fast.

They haven't seen over $20 since like Nov 2011. People couldn't have been shorting them like mad for the whole 8 months for it to drop to ~$9. Yes, there are people shorting it but there are also people truly dumping it as faith may have been "lost" since they keep hearing the same old story of "give us time, trust us."

[Laflare]

It's over for bb.. EVERYONE switched to iPhone, it wasn't because of business's that rim was where it was but bbm was like the new msn messenger it connected everyone ..its like you had to have a bb at one point but ***** phones that break easy and constant screw ups from rim and disabling bbm for days on in messed up everything for them. I'm the last of the dying breed now iPhone has everything that's needed.

[iEyeCaptain]

This is a real shame.

RIM should have opened an office in California long ago.

Top talent, unfortunately, does not come from Canada. They come from the States and Americans are not willing to relocated to Waterloo unless they're significantly overpaid.

[rfdrfd]

Well, share price is a crapshot because the market is anything but rational and given their sentiments about RIM it will lag significantly (understandably too, of course).
General adoption, brand perception, app availability, sales, that's the area I expect to be improved in 9 months. However, this is assuming that RIM can continue to pull off their long overdue shift in thinking and approach... they've finally got their heads out of their asses and are getting developers on board, and finally getting that it's a consumer's market... as long as those positive traits are continued as they have been in the past months there is no doubt that RIM will continue to be a major player (although likely a 3rd place player, but given the market size that's no shame and can be a benefit if played correctly).

(then again, it's not like I'm stocking up on more RIM shares right now :razz:)


Hence, the best way to trade stocks is on stock price alone, not on fundamentals. Demand and supply. That's it.

[mc_molineux]

They haven't seen over $20 since like Nov 2011. People couldn't have been shorting them like mad for the whole 8 months for it to drop to ~$9. Yes, there are people shorting it but there are also people truly dumping it as faith may have been "lost" since they keep hearing the same old story of "give us time, trust us."

I agree 100% that it hasn't been dropping only due to shorts. That's why I said "if".

However, volatility works both ways.

[charliebrown]

Hence, the best way to trade stocks is on stock price alone, not on fundamentals. Demand and supply. That's it.

Yes, until the buyout comes along; i.e. Petronas paying 77% premium to yesterday's close price for PRQ.
Having said that, NOK is now trading at $2.11...i guess that's the more likely path for RIM

[rfdrfd]

Yes, until the buyout comes along; i.e. Petronas paying 77% premium to yesterday's close price for PRQ.
Having said that, NOK is now trading at $2.11...i guess that's the more likely path for RIM

True, but there are rules when trading stocks:

1) do not trade stocks around earnings
2) stay away from pharmaceuticals, say NO to drugs
3) always have a stop
4) always go with the trend (for beginners)
5) buy/short low/high on the curve, don't diddle in the middle


Point 3 would have saved you if someone buys out RIMM.

[adamtheman]

Anyone else tuning into the 5:00pm ET conference call? Should be interesting.

RIM is trading down 3% after hours already, just based on fear.

[charliebrown]

ouch...revenues down 33% vs last quarter
BB10 devices delayed yet again to Q1 2013


Down to $7.60 after-hours (-18%...ouch)...getting close to cash value haha ($2.1 billion/524mil shrs o/s = $4)

[rfdrfd]

I shorted RIMM today. Up 17% at this moment, but probably will be less when the day opens as people buy in (thinking RIM is a cheap price to buy now)

[rfdrfd]

Wow, you know its BAD when a stock gets halted:

4:27 PM EDT
June 28, 2012IIROC Trading Halt - RIM (all issues)

4:36 PM EDT
June 28, 2012IIROC Trade Resumption - RIM (all issues) -

[adamtheman]

I don't know how a company can do even worse than the worst expectations. BB10 delayed until Q1 2013? It's over.

BB10 will never be released. How can it take a company that many years to finish a product no one even really wants?

Wow. Down 19% after hours now.

[adamtheman]

5000 jobs cut... that is going to hurt our economy. These aren't normal jobs, these are going to be high tech jobs. Mark77, I think the job market just got a bit tougher...

[slim_shady]

Well, I rescind my previous comments... RIM has apparently not learned anything. The BB10 delay is unacceptable and they will be punished harshly (and rightly so) by the markets, consumers, and enterprise.

[setell]

They are done. The game is over. I am not surprise BB10 is delayed as it took them forever to get the upgrade for Playbook. Now the hope is for a buyout but the buyer will rfd them to get the cheapest price as they know RIM is desperate now. I am very very sad but at the same time it makes me mad because it can be partly prevented if executive management didn't have their ego's up their ***** . And this fellas is how you destroy a company that was the top player in it's field in a few years! :facepalm:

[ccyk]

top level management epic fail.

I think it should trade at 80% of cash value + 50% of fmv of its patent.

[smihaila]

WHAT IF all the present situation with RIM is:

-A move initiated by the Americans to buy the company (following the well-known trend of US never liking good Canadian companies and deciding to put them down and absorb them)
-Or a move triggered by the main stock holders, to buy back all the shares and making the company private?

Just speculating.

[setell]

WHAT IF all the present situation with RIM is:

-A move initiated by the Americans to buy the company (following the well-known trend of US never liking good Canadian companies and deciding to put them down and absorb them)
-Or a move triggered by the main stock holders, to buy back all the shares and making the company private?

Just speculating.

That seems wishful thinking at the moment for option #2. You need cash to fight the big boys and they will bleed red very very soon. As to option #1, not sure who wants to buy RIM at the moment to make it a strategic move with Microsoft and Nokia working together already.

[dgodsell]

Short interest for RIM is 72 million of its 515 million shares.

Given that quantity of short interest, a short squeeze is not improbable. Yet, can't help but think RIM is in a value trap death spiral.

The way I've chosen to play this is to buy puts and calls to form a straddle. The straddle should perform if RIM falls below $6 or pops above $9, before September 22nd, 2012.

PUT: $6, September 22, 2012, $0.40
CALL: $9, September 22, 2012, $0.34

I'm looking for volatility following RIM's July 10th AGM.

[ccyk]

Short interest for RIM is 72 million of its 515 million shares.

Given that quantity of short interest, a short squeeze is not improbable. Yet, can't help but think RIM is in a value trap death spiral.

The way I've chosen to play this is to buy puts and calls to form a straddle. The straddle should perform if RIM falls below $6 or pops above $9, before September 22nd, 2012.

PUT: $6, September 22, 2012, $0.40
CALL: $9, September 22, 2012, $0.34

I'm looking for volatility following RIM's July 10th AGM.
i also believe rim wont stay at same price. however which direction i dont know.

thats a good strategy, except for duration, 2013 is way more safe, just imo.

[Xiaohaibao]

Well I bought RIM stock.

I expect it to bounce back up!

It's a risk but I'm a risk taker.

[charliebrown]

So what's the rumour of the day? +5% while DOW & TSX are down triple digits

[ccyk]

So what's the rumour of the day? +5% while DOW & TSX are down triple digits

shorts covering? after than they are more likely to reshort lol

[Fox2k]

Short interest for RIM is 72 million of its 515 million shares.

Given that quantity of short interest, a short squeeze is not improbable. Yet, can't help but think RIM is in a value trap death spiral.

The way I've chosen to play this is to buy puts and calls to form a straddle. The straddle should perform if RIM falls below $6 or pops above $9, before September 22nd, 2012.

PUT: $6, September 22, 2012, $0.40
CALL: $9, September 22, 2012, $0.34

I'm looking for volatility following RIM's July 10th AGM.

You would need to fall below $5.26 or get above $9.74 to make any actual profit, assuming vol stays where it is. I'm not so sure there is that much downside in the immediate future but you never know. Good luck, hopefully it works out! As you say though, if you do get a boost in volatility it will bring you profitable much sooner. I had a few $8 calendars on before their bad news came out last week. It gapped down right in to my maximum profit area so I took my money and ran. lol.

[dgodsell]

You would need to fall below $5.26 or get above $9.74 to make any actual profit, assuming vol stays where it is. I'm not so sure there is that much downside in the immediate future but you never know. Good luck, hopefully it works out! As you say though, if you do get a boost in volatility it will bring you profitable much sooner. I had a few $8 calendars on before their bad news came out last week. It gapped down right in to my maximum profit area so I took my money and ran. lol.

Thanks. I should mention though that the price need not come close to your suggested numbers for the straddle position to be profitable.

Consider the dynamic that the call appreciates faster than the put depreciates when prices rise and vice versa when the price declines.

To really illustrate this, consider how the straddle is already profitable: RIM's stock price has risen approximately 10% since I took my position. The calls have appreciated from $0.34 to $0.59. or 73%, while the puts have decreased from $0.40 to $0.26, or -35%. Said differently, the call options have increased by $750, while the put options dropped by $350, for a net profit of $400, less commission and currency exchange.

One could argue that the put option retained value because of increased volatility, but it would not be persuasive since he or she would be arguing volatility has increased since I bought the options, after the volatility-inducing earnings announcement.

[Fox2k]

Thanks. I should mention though that the price need not come close to your suggested numbers for the straddle position to be profitable.

Consider the dynamic that the call appreciates faster than the put depreciates when prices rise and vice versa when the price declines.

To really illustrate this, consider how the straddle is already profitable: RIM's stock price has risen approximately 10% since I took my position. The calls have appreciated from $0.34 to $0.59. or 73%, while the puts have decreased from $0.40 to $0.26, or -35%. Said differently, the call options have increased by $750, while the put options dropped by $350, for a net profit of $400, less commission and currency exchange.

One could argue that the put option retained value because of increased volatility, but it would not be persuasive since he or she would be arguing volatility has increased since I bought the options, after the volatility-inducing earnings announcement.

Sorry I should have clarified, I was assuming you were planning to hold the straddle until expiration. Right now you're right though, your call is rising faster than your put is falling because gamma is highest at the money and RIMM is closer to 9 than it is to 6. If there is another wave of panic selling you may find your position under water faster than you expect. I don't know how many contracts you have, but if you're feeling adventurous you could try scaling out of your calls as rallies occur, and scaling back in as price corrects..I guess that could sort of be considered gamma scalping..might be fun to try. lol.