Elliot Lake Mall Collapse - 1 killed. [Archive]

_Allan_

Jun 25th, 2012, 01:47 PM

(This happened Saturday, and today was the first I'd seen anything about it! I'm surprised...)

Officials have confirmed one person is dead, but say there are still signs of life from within the rubble of a collapsed mall roof in Elliot Lake. The remaining structure is too unstable, however, to attempt reaching whoever may still be trapped there anytime soon.

The precise number of people missing and unaccounted for has fluctuated since a section of roof at the Algo Centre Mall collapsed, officials said at a midday press conference on Monday, noting that the list had been whittled down to just four names overnight.

The list has since grown to include more than 30 names, Ontario Provincial Police Insp. Percy Jollymore told reporters.

"I caution it goes up and down, and as you can imagine it's difficult to determine who was a casual customer or visitor to the mall at the time of the collapse," Jollymore said.

Rescue crews remain focused on finding anyone who may have survived the Saturday afternoon roof collapse, however, buoyed by further confirmation someone trapped in the rubble was still alive overnight.

The incident commander with the heavy urban search and rescue team dispatched from Toronto to help with the operation at the mall said specialized equipment was used to detect whether anyone was still trapped, alive, among the debris.

"They were able to determine that there was signs of life from the one same location that we had indicated yesterday," Bill Needles said, describing how the machine was able to detect breathing within the rubble at approximately 4 a.m. Monday morning.

Since then, crews had managed to remove the damaged I-beam that collapsed within the mall, handing it over to investigators from the provincial Ministry of Labour.

Several large pieces of broken concrete were also removed overnight.

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120625/potential-missing-persons-mall-roof-collapse-120625/#ixzz1ypPX4m74

If you look at the CTV images, it looks like it was a 'clean break' on 3 sides, which to me, would indicate some degree of culpability on the builders part.
HOWEVER, as they haven't even started examining the actual structure (other than 1 steel "I"Beam), instead focusing on search and rescue.

To the 1 deceased person, my prayers go out to their family.

Some news articles are saying the mall has been 'neglected' for many years (maybe a decade or more), however, a structural study was done in May, and the mall did pass it.

..

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20120623/800_roof_collapse_Elliot_Lake_120623.jpg
http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/elliot-lake-roof-collapse-21.jpg
http://www.toledoblade.com/image/2012/06/24/800x_b1_cCM_z/Canada-Mall-Roof-Collapse-1.jpg

a-tree

Jun 25th, 2012, 01:55 PM

I don't think you can talk about culpability from a few pictures.

dragon_drift

Jun 25th, 2012, 01:57 PM

Prayers go out to the family.

That's scary stuff.

Drew87

Jun 25th, 2012, 01:58 PM

Rest In Peace to the victim....

Man - one of my biggest fears is being caved in or being sucked in by a random sinkhole.....Scary scary stuff....

Simaahoy

Jun 25th, 2012, 02:01 PM

30 people could be trapped also, rip to the victim:!:

flashy_mcflash

Jun 25th, 2012, 02:13 PM

I've stayed at the hotel attached to that mall before. Really tragic, and I hope they find anyone else that's missing.

Hambone

Jun 25th, 2012, 06:37 PM

Jeeze, that rooftop lot reminds me of that mall at Steeles & Ferrier in Markham. Looks just as bad. I hope it doesn't happen anywhere else.

stuntman

Jun 25th, 2012, 06:42 PM

My favorite part of the original article stated that the roof had been sagging for about a year and every time it rained buckets of water would leak through the roof. This one has negligence and lawsuits causing bankruptcy all over it.
It collapsed right over a lottery booth too. That has to be a busy area on a Saturday.

I have been there but not on a Saturday so I can't say how busy it gets.
30 people is a lot but the number is up and down. Hopefully it goes downwards a bit more.

cheapmeister

Jun 25th, 2012, 06:49 PM

Wow! They should be able to find all the trapped ppl already. The collapsed area doesn't look so big. Time is running out, this happened 2 days ago.

stuntman

Jun 25th, 2012, 06:52 PM

Wow! They should be able to find all the trapped ppl already. The collapsed area doesn't look so big. Time is running out, this happened 2 days ago.

True, I remember the mall being in a weird spot but 2 days does seem like far too long. Isn't the province helping out?

Syne

Jun 25th, 2012, 07:02 PM

Syne

Jun 25th, 2012, 07:04 PM

Wow! They should be able to find all the trapped ppl already. The collapsed area doesn't look so big. Time is running out, this happened 2 days ago.

This is the problem. They're about to have civilians rushing in there because the municipality refuses to act, and the expensive rescue ops from Toronto refuse to do their job. By their own admission there are "signs of life" in the wreckage. Rather than come up with a plan to ensure survivors don't die of thirst, they are 'suspending rescue operations'. It's an outrage.

It's funny, just last year I was standing in the exact kiosk buying lotto tickets where the mall roof collapsed.

stuntman

Jun 25th, 2012, 11:36 PM

I don't think you can talk about culpability from a few pictures.

WRONG AGAIN A-TREE.

He can allude to the possibility of culpability and did.

He also included other items: reference of inspection and people stating there has been neglect in maintenance.
So you are WRONG on that bit too. The statement was based on a few pictures AND some statements.

(get that brain to keyboard thing checked out please).

stuntman

Jun 25th, 2012, 11:40 PM

Maxman

Jun 26th, 2012, 12:25 AM

I agree.
I can't see how the towns people would take the halting of a rescue nicely. There must have been total outrage for many reasons including IT IS A MINING TOWN (well was).

BTW: they started rescue operations again after the Premier set them straight. Leaving a person that is likely alive to die is simply unheard of in Canada (unless bad people do it).

Thats not quite true. McGuinty has asked the rescue team to look at other ideas for rescue. They have not re-commenced any actual rescue. It just makes it sound like McGuinty is doing something. He was in Sudbury on the weekend, when this happened, and couldn't even be bothered to travel the 150 kilometers to investigate.

The fact that they even contemplated pulling out and demolishing the building while people were still alive in it is an embarassment to our province! There are many strategies that could be used to brace the structure and allow or a safe search and rescue - the fact that they aren't even attemting these - 3 days after the accident - is ridiculous. Between Sudbury and the Sault, we hae robotics expertise, mine rescue, steel manufacturing plants, rubber and plastics companies, and many engineering firms that MUST be engaged to find a quick solution.

Shame!

BornRuff

Jun 26th, 2012, 12:41 AM

This is the problem. They're about to have civilians rushing in there because the municipality refuses to act, and the expensive rescue ops from Toronto refuse to do their job. By their own admission there are "signs of life" in the wreckage. Rather than come up with a plan to ensure survivors don't die of thirst, they are 'suspending rescue operations'. It's an outrage.

It's funny, just last year I was standing in the exact kiosk buying lotto tickets where the mall roof collapsed.

It is a tough situation for sure. Nobody wants to give up on these people, but nobody wants to see more people die either.

Apparently the engineers who came in to do the assessment of the building were crying when they made the call that it was too unsafe to go in there. They said the thing could collapse at any second.

It is good that they did decide to continue, or at least find a way to continue(I don't know what exactly they are doing right now) I don't know how you get equipment in there that is capable of digging these people out without risking knocking over more of the building. Hopefully they can figure it out.

As far as liability goes, I can't imagine any situation in which the mall owners are not liable for this.

Syne

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:05 AM

Well I hope they act fast, because the window for "signs of life" is quickly closing.

cheapmeister

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:22 AM

It is a tough situation for sure. Nobody wants to give up on these people, but nobody wants to see more people die either.

Apparently the engineers who came in to do the assessment of the building were crying when they made the call that it was too unsafe to go in there. They said the thing could collapse at any second.

It is good that they did decide to continue, or at least find a way to continue(I don't know what exactly they are doing right now) I don't know how you get equipment in there that is capable of digging these people out without risking knocking over more of the building. Hopefully they can figure it out.

As far as liability goes, I can't imagine any situation in which the mall owners are not liable for this.

I thought I saw in the picture a car still parked on the roof. Cannot be so near to collapse with a car still on top of it. Put some supports underneath of the roof to keep it up until they find the trapped peeps.

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/elliot-lake-roof-collapse-21.jpg

dawgbone

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:28 AM

Thats not quite true. McGuinty has asked the rescue team to look at other ideas for rescue. They have not re-commenced any actual rescue. It just makes it sound like McGuinty is doing something. He was in Sudbury on the weekend, when this happened, and couldn't even be bothered to travel the 150 kilometers to investigate.

The fact that they even contemplated pulling out and demolishing the building while people were still alive in it is an embarassment to our province! There are many strategies that could be used to brace the structure and allow or a safe search and rescue - the fact that they aren't even attemting these - 3 days after the accident - is ridiculous. Between Sudbury and the Sault, we hae robotics expertise, mine rescue, steel manufacturing plants, rubber and plastics companies, and many engineering firms that MUST be engaged to find a quick solution.

Shame!

What the heck is McGuinty going to do in an investigation?

BornRuff

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:36 AM

I thought I saw in the picture a car still parked on the roof. Cannot be so near to collapse with a car still on top of it. Put some supports underneath of the roof to keep it up until they find the trapped peeps.

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/elliot-lake-roof-collapse-21.jpg

The part of the roof that collapsed was able to support the weight of whatever was on top of it, until it couldn't.

a-tree

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:56 AM

WRONG AGAIN A-TREE.

He can allude to the possibility of culpability and did.

He also included other items: reference of inspection and people stating there has been neglect in maintenance.
So you are WRONG on that bit too. The statement was based on a few pictures AND some statements.

(get that brain to keyboard thing checked out please).

Culpability means blame. And you can't assess blame with a few pictures and attribute the whole incident to construction because there was a 'clean break'. It's a job left for engineers. And neither you nor the OP are engineers.

_Allan_

Jun 26th, 2012, 02:49 AM

Culpability means blame. And you can't assess blame with a few pictures and attribute the whole incident to construction because there was a 'clean break'. It's a job left for engineers. And neither you nor the OP are engineers.

Joints are the weakest part of all construction. This is why when we lay roofs, we NEVER have long joints in the sheeting and our shingles are off set. This is why when we lay floors, out subfloor is never one straight line, instead its staggered. My boss never lays bricks or cinder blocks with vertical lines along multiple rows ... Because if something breaks, it is going to be the join. No, I am not an engineer, but I am skilled enough in building to know the weakest point is joints, and that the major cause of issues in Canada for road issues is salt and snow melting and the water seeping in to concrete. Can I say that's the issue here? No, but I can guess that it is maintenance related and/or neglect.

wilsonlam97

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:38 AM

Thats not quite true. McGuinty has asked the rescue team to look at other ideas for rescue. They have not re-commenced any actual rescue. It just makes it sound like McGuinty is doing something. He was in Sudbury on the weekend, when this happened, and couldn't even be bothered to travel the 150 kilometers to investigate.

The fact that they even contemplated pulling out and demolishing the building while people were still alive in it is an embarassment to our province! There are many strategies that could be used to brace the structure and allow or a safe search and rescue - the fact that they aren't even attemting these - 3 days after the accident - is ridiculous. Between Sudbury and the Sault, we hae robotics expertise, mine rescue, steel manufacturing plants, rubber and plastics companies, and many engineering firms that MUST be engaged to find a quick solution.

Shame!

McGuinty is a horrible premier. He does not care whatsoever about this province and he's all in for what he's obligated to do as his job.

stuntman

Jun 26th, 2012, 08:44 AM

I don't think you can talk about culpability from a few pictures.

Culpability means blame. And you can't assess blame with a few pictures and attribute the whole incident to construction because there was a 'clean break'. It's a job left for engineers. And neither you nor the OP are engineers.

wrong again a-tree :lol:

1) The poster you were talking back to did not just use a few pictures to talk about culpability. They referred to pictures and statements by witnesses
2) The poster was not laying blame as you are now saying. They were talking about where the blame might lie. He did not reach a conclusion yet. First you say "talk" then you say "lay". Which is it a-tree? can't you ever stick to one story? Why do you lie?
3) Yes in some cases culpability can be correctly assessed and is assessed based on a few pictures.

Wow. WRONG 3 times in one line. At least you are making it easy. How do you get by in life being wrong so often?

stuntman

Jun 26th, 2012, 08:45 AM

McGuinty is a horrible premier. He does not care whatsoever about this province and he's all in for what he's obligated to do as his job.

^^^ political statement.

Winkle

Jun 26th, 2012, 09:15 AM

Couple of things people should keep in mind.

Unless you're an expert in structural engineering, urban search and rescue, and are actually there with all the known facts in hand, you really can't criticize the rescue efforts or the initial decision to suspend rescue operations. There are a million and a half variables at play here, Elliot Lake was a former mining town, it's remote, you can't snap your fingers and have heavy equipment magically appear.

Don't condemn the engineers who made the call, they did their job and that was their professional judgement. They deemed that the building was unsafe and on the verge of collapse, they cannot, in good judgement or conscious, recommend rescuers to go back in under those conditions, and continue shifting through the debris and further disturb and potentially destabilize the remaining structure. If they said it was okay, and 20 rescuers go in and the building further collapsed and those 20 rescuers are killed, that's on them. The call they made was required by their profession and I can bet you they agonized over that decision and were hoping someone would override them.

vero95

Jun 26th, 2012, 10:18 AM

we are waiting now for the gardiner to collapse

Gardiner concrete and Elliot Lake mall collapse raise questions about Canada’s structural safety
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/gardiner-concrete-elliot-lake-mall-collapse-raise-questions-190829706.html

YLSF

Jun 26th, 2012, 10:19 AM

Winkle

Jun 26th, 2012, 10:49 AM

You are right, I am not an engineer but I don't understand how the other areas are now so "unsafe" when in May there was an inspection done of the structure and everything was fine. The collapse looks pretty isolated (it doesn't look like a HUGE area... when hearing it on the news I thought half the mall collapsed). I don't understand why they can't brace the areas not effected or at least make plans for that. I hear that there is special equipment coming in but it can't travel on normal roads so they need to clear a route to it. If anyone finds a picture of what machine this is I am curious to see what it is. If there are other mining areas around they should have bracing/etc no? To me it seems like an overly cautious group of engineers that don't want to be found "liable" if something were to happen again. I would like to see the evidence that the rest of the structure could collapse at any time.

From the picture of the collapse it looks like it is a "clean cut" I think because there are panels of concrete sitting on the beams to make the roof structure. I think it is like "core slab" based on the wholes in the concrete you can see. So, it wasn't poured concrete. I don't see any joists going across though so wondering if the i-beam was the only thing holding up the slabs.

What would seeing evidence do? You already admitted that you're not an expert or an engineer, you wouldn't know how to interpret it.

And it isn't an isolated collapse, structures are designed and constructed as a system, all the components are interconnected and if something happens to one, it will affect the other. They've already said that the elevators and escalators adjacent to the collapsed zone are already "separating away" and are clearly undergoing ductile failure. When that part goes, it could very well drag a good chunk of the building down with it, if not the rest of the building.

And how would you brace the building? It's really not that simple, you can only brace a limited number of weak points and you need strong points around it to brace it against, to take the load from the weakened areas. The collapsed zone is a write-off, you can't brace the weak points around the collapsed zone because there is nothing to brace them against, there's nowhere to redirect the loads.

Are the engineers overcautious and trying to cover their asses? Maybe. But their job is to answer the following questions, which are, is the building stable and safe enough for people to enter and conduct rescue operations, if not, is it possible to stabilize the building to do so. Obviously, in their professional judgement, the answer to both is no, at least not within acceptable risk. That's not saying they should give up on rescue attempts, but those are not the questions they have to answer.

I don't think it's fair for any of us sitting in front of our computers to be criticizing those engineers for not sending a number of rescue workers into an incredibly hazardous area where they may very well be killed. Would you be able to make that call if it were you? I don't think I could.

whampoa

Jun 26th, 2012, 10:51 AM

we are waiting now for the gardiner to collapse

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/gardiner-concrete-elliot-lake-mall-collapse-raise-questions-190829706.html

Experts put part of the blame on the unseasonal warm weather and lack of snow, whatever that mean.

Wreaking havoc on our aging infrastructure and buildings.

sprung

Jun 26th, 2012, 11:18 AM

just from a public perception viewpoint it is interesting to note that the mall's own website 'News and Updates' page hasn't been touched since 2010 (http://www.algocentremall.com/category/news-and-updates/). If they can't even do that who's to say how they are about important maintenance and repairs...

_Allan_

Jun 26th, 2012, 11:39 AM

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2012/06/25/roofinfogfx.jpg

appleb

Jun 26th, 2012, 12:01 PM

we are waiting now for the gardiner to collapse

Yet still, nothing will be done with the gardiner until someone gets killed or injured by falling debris.

t3359

Jun 26th, 2012, 12:32 PM

Thats not quite true. McGuinty has asked the rescue team to look at other ideas for rescue. They have not re-commenced any actual rescue. It just makes it sound like McGuinty is doing something. He was in Sudbury on the weekend, when this happened, and couldn't even be bothered to travel the 150 kilometers to investigate.

The fact that they even contemplated pulling out and demolishing the building while people were still alive in it is an embarassment to our province! There are many strategies that could be used to brace the structure and allow or a safe search and rescue - the fact that they aren't even attemting these - 3 days after the accident - is ridiculous. Between Sudbury and the Sault, we hae robotics expertise, mine rescue, steel manufacturing plants, rubber and plastics companies, and many engineering firms that MUST be engaged to find a quick solution.

Shame!

Ummm... what do you expect him to do? learn structural engineering on the drive over and then rescue the people himself?

McGuinty is a horrible premier. He does not care whatsoever about this province and he's all in for what he's obligated to do as his job.

Everything that goes wrong in the Province is so clearly traced back to him. Especially in this case where it's a commercial property.

You two are so politically biased it ain't funny.

bjl

Maxman

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:29 PM

Ummm... what do you expect him to do? learn structural engineering on the drive over and then rescue the people himself?

Everything that goes wrong in the Province is so clearly traced back to him. Especially in this case where it's a commercial property.

You two are so politically biased it ain't funny.

bjl

Why is he involved now? What changed from Saturday till now?

Maybe you haven't paid attention to what has happened - I have. The mall collapsed on Saturday - and clearly there were people KNOWN to be missing and trapped in the rubble. It was soon discovered that at least one person in the rubble was still alive. The response team from Toronto was sent up and arrived Sunday. By Monday morning they had confirmed that there was still someone breathing in the rubble. A couple hours later they said THEY WERE DONE - PACKING UP and going home and that the building should just be demolsihed by the owners, and the still-alive victim buried and later recovered.

The premier steped in last night - over 48 hours after the collapse happened - to authorize "further" action. Shouldn't every effort or expense be authorized at the very start of the rescue? Is it not reasonable for the premier - who was less than 1.5 hours away - to attend immediately and authorize any exenses, equipment, manpower, emergency measures to aid in the rescue of trapped civilians?

To think that this elite rescue team can't find a single bracing/shoring option to stabilize a two-storey, small shopping mall is ridiculous. I'd venture that, if left to the citizens of Elliot Lake, and not the rescue team, that the rescue operations would have been far more effective.

There are massive cranes within two hours of Elliot Lake, steel mills, cribbing, large and customizable manufacturing operations, heavy equipment companies, robotics companies - ALL should have been considered long before these clowns decided to pull up and go home!

There is a company right by me that works with NASA and the owner is one of the most brilliant robotics researchers in the world. They have the ability to find solutions - but instead we rely on bureaucrats.

Maxman

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:32 PM

OH - one last point - the miners that were trapped in Chile - the companies that designed and BUILT the technology to rescue these guys - thousands of miles away - right here in Sudbury! My very good friend owns the company that built the drills to enable the capsules to work.

Yeah, we should expect more from Mr. Premier!!!

gilboman

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:33 PM

Why is he involved now? What changed from Saturday till now?

Maybe you haven't paid attention to what has happened - I have. The mall collapsed on Saturday - and clearly there were people KNOWN to be missing and trapped in the rubble. It was soon discovered that at least one person in the rubble was still alive. The response team from Toronto was sent up and arrived Sunday. By Monday morning they had confirmed that there was still someone breathing in the rubble. A couple hours later they said THEY WERE DONE - PACKING UP and going home and that the building should just be demolsihed by the owners, and the still-alive victim buried and later recovered.

The premier steped in last night - over 48 hours after the collapse happened - to authorize "further" action. Shouldn't every effort or expense be authorized at the very start of the rescue? Is it not reasonable for the premier - who was less than 1.5 hours away - to attend immediately and authorize any exenses, equipment, manpower, emergency measures to aid in the rescue of trapped civilians?

To think that this elite rescue team can't find a single bracing/shoring option to stabilize a two-storey, small shopping mall is ridiculous. I'd venture that, if left to the citizens of Elliot Lake, and not the rescue team, that the rescue operations would have been far more effective.

There are massive cranes within two hours of Elliot Lake, steel mills, cribbing, large and customizable manufacturing operations, heavy equipment companies, robotics companies - ALL should have been considered long before these clowns decided to pull up and go home!

There is a company right by me that works with NASA and the owner is one of the most brilliant robotics researchers in the world. They have the ability to find solutions - but instead we rely on bureaucrats.

*****************************
*****************************

You want an untrained politician to be a first responder? You want someone with no experience to be in charge just because he's the head of the government? Mall collapsed Saturday, the specialized personnel arrived sunday, monday night they declared it was unsafe and left, premier then asked them to look for ways to continue that same night.

You're the one suggesting Dalton should've been there from the start for god knows what? photo op? and then you go and complain about how it's bureaucratics running the rescue (when it's not) but also in the same argument said the premier should've been there.

*********

Maxman

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:40 PM

*******************
****************

You want an untrained politician to be a first responder? You want someone with no experience to be in charge just because he's the head of the government? Mall collapsed Saturday, the specialized personnel arrived sunday, monday night they declared it was unsafe and left, premier then asked them to look for ways to continue that same night.

You're the one suggesting Dalton should've been there from the start for god knows what? photo op? and then you go and complain about how it's bureaucratics running the rescue (when it's not) but also in the same argument said the premier should've been there.

*********

Thanks for the valued feedback. The premier has the ability to authorize and request resources IMMEDIATELY! You do not understand this? The delays caused by the "rescue team" has pretty much made it impossible to rescue anyone alive now.

But, you are the great defender of Uncle Dalton, so I don't expect you to see anything reasonable in having him give such autorization quickly.

feidailo

Jun 26th, 2012, 01:49 PM

gilboman

Jun 26th, 2012, 02:38 PM

Thanks for the valued feedback. The premier has the ability to authorize and request resources IMMEDIATELY! You do not understand this? The delays caused by the "rescue team" has pretty much made it impossible to rescue anyone alive now.

But, you are the great defender of Uncle Dalton, so I don't expect you to see anything reasonable in having him give such autorization quickly.

they weren't waiting for authorization. What delays? the logistics of moving personel and equipment upto elliot lake from toronto?

Did you expect him to just send people up there via chopper with a shovel? I'm not a defender of Dalton, I'm a defender of rational thinking and following protocol and best practices. I am not a believer of knee jerk reaction like yourself. How can you send things up there without knowing what you need? It's like Triage, you you need to asses the situation and scope and then identify what is needed.

You don't just throw everything including the kitchen sink at it right off the bat.

a-tree

Jun 26th, 2012, 02:41 PM

Joints are the weakest part of all construction. This is why when we lay roofs, we NEVER have long joints in the sheeting and our shingles are off set. This is why when we lay floors, out subfloor is never one straight line, instead its staggered. My boss never lays bricks or cinder blocks with vertical lines along multiple rows ... Because if something breaks, it is going to be the join. No, I am not an engineer, but I am skilled enough in building to know the weakest point is joints, and that the major cause of issues in Canada for road issues is salt and snow melting and the water seeping in to concrete. Can I say that's the issue here? No, but I can guess that it is maintenance related and/or neglect.

Why are you telling me about how roofing is done? My point is that blame cannot be discussed with a few pictures and how there is a clean break. Blame can only be discussed after an assessment by an engineer

wrong again a-tree :lol:

1) The poster you were talking back to did not just use a few pictures to talk about culpability. They referred to pictures and statements by witnesses
2) The poster was not laying blame as you are now saying. They were talking about where the blame might lie. He did not reach a conclusion yet. First you say "talk" then you say "lay". Which is it a-tree? can't you ever stick to one story? Why do you lie?
3) Yes in some cases culpability can be correctly assessed and is assessed based on a few pictures.

Wow. WRONG 3 times in one line. At least you are making it easy. How do you get by in life being wrong so often?

Culpability cannot be determined by a few pictures and a few witness statements.

johnboy

Jun 26th, 2012, 02:48 PM

If rescuers can continue looking for people in 9/11, surely our gov't can figure out a way to rescue people in small section of a collapsed building!

What a disgrace.

Looks like they're back at it again. Great but should not have stopped in the first place. :(

Drew87

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:01 PM

BornRuff

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:02 PM

Thanks for the valued feedback. The premier has the ability to authorize and request resources IMMEDIATELY! You do not understand this? The delays caused by the "rescue team" has pretty much made it impossible to rescue anyone alive now.

But, you are the great defender of Uncle Dalton, so I don't expect you to see anything reasonable in having him give such autorization quickly.

What additional resources have been made available since Dalton stepped in? The decision to suspend the search had nothing to do with a lack of resources. All he did was ensure that efforts continued. I don't see what him being there would have done other than provide him with a photo op.

On the day of the incident, the Heavy Urban Search and Rescue Team was mobilized. They are the people trained to work in these situations.

CSK'sMom

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:13 PM

Maxman

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:16 PM

What is everyone talking about on here?

When I watched the news they said that the search and rescue teams had to stop because the debris was unstable and could collapse further crushing any survivors....They said that they had to stop to develop a better approach....

Drew, that is not what has happened at all. Yesterday morning they identified at least one person still alive in the rubble. They detected breathing! At 5:00 last night, the search and rescue team leader called a press conference and clearly stated that the building was unsafe, that they would not attempt to rescue anyone and that the MoL would be taking over for the demolition of the building with the still alive person left to perish. They were packing up and going home after less than 48 hours on site, and with no attempt at shoring the building. It was not until the residents of Elliot Lake refused to let the equipment out of the building that the Mayor contacted McGuinty to say that more needed to be done.

The fact that they are now bringing in heavy equipment and looking at means to shore up the building to attempt a rescue indicates quite clearly that their first attempts were less than half-assed.

Maxman

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:21 PM

I watched the news conference update earlier today. I gotta say, those in control of this search certainly didn't win any public support. Lots of excuses and even an apology for stopping the search yesterday. I take issue as well with the statements that the chances of finding anyone alive are incredibly slim to none now. I think we all know from recent natural disasters that may very well not be the case.

Ironically now they say they are bringing in specialty equipment from Sudbury (from the mines!) and Toronto (an articulated crane). Why on earth was this equipment not brought in on Sat or even Sun. This situation does not give me confidence that our gov't could handle a natural disaster with any kind of urgency or properly...

EXACTLY! When dealing with rescue, you deploy the resources and equipment whether you will use it or not. The delays that have occured throughout this rescue are unacceptable in a country like ours. I'd rather have five cranes, 2000 people, and 100 engineers standing around, waiting to help than have to wait 3 days for them to arrive.

They could have had a small, (smaller than a bobcat), remote controlled scoop and rock breaker in there in less than 12 hours to start removal of the debris with NO risk to any rescuer.

Edit: Our mine rescue teams also have technology and equipment that could be easily adapted to help in these situations yet they were not called in.

Drew87

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:21 PM

Wow - i guess the initial report I had heard was wrong and occurred before the press conference.

CSK'sMom

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:24 PM

Drew, that is not what has happened at all. Yesterday morning they identified at least one person still alive in the rubble. They detected breathing! At 5:00 last night, the search and rescue team leader called a press conference and clearly stated that the building was unsafe, that they would not attempt to rescue anyone and that the MoL would be taking over for the demolition of the building with the still alive person left to perish. They were packing up and going home after less than 48 hours on site, and with no attempt at shoring the building. It was not until the residents of Elliot Lake refused to let the equipment out of the building that the Mayor contacted McGuinty to say that more needed to be done.

The fact that they are now bringing in heavy equipment and looking at means to shore up the building to attempt a rescue indicates quite clearly that their first attempts were less than half-assed.

Exactly! The residents actually converged on the site last night and threatened they would enter the building themselves and form a human chain to remove rubble, aka Haiti, etc. Apparently, if I understood the news conference today correctly, the new "plan" is to drop the escalator in a controlled fashion (it's hanging precariously and still shifting) and to start demolishing the building from the outside inwards to the collapsed area.

BornRuff

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:26 PM

I watched the news conference update earlier today. I gotta say, those in control of this search certainly didn't win any public support. Lots of excuses and even an apology for stopping the search yesterday. I take issue as well with the statements that the chances of finding anyone alive are incredibly slim to none now. I think we all know from recent natural disasters that may very well not be the case.

Ironically now they say they are bringing in specialty equipment from Sudbury (from the mines!) and Toronto (an articulated crane). Why on earth was this equipment not brought in on Sat or even Sun. This situation does not give me confidence that our gov't could handle a natural disaster with any kind of urgency or properly...

Because this is part of a different rescue plan that is incredibly high risk.

They are planning to use the crane to reach into the building from the hole in the top and knock over the escalator that is threatening to fall on it's own at any time, and then start dismantling the building from the outside. Obviously, this could easily cause parts of the building to fall unpredictably, which could kill anyone who might still be alive. This is clearly not the plan you would use as plan A.

Psubs

Jun 26th, 2012, 03:58 PM

Here's a picture of the mall roof in February. They patched this over

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/556243_10151860834335252_1814816607_n.jpg

This is directly from my cousin in Elliot Lake whose father was the Publisher of The Standard, newspaper.

There is a cover-up going on right now by those who want to avoid liability, because they know the mall had structural issues but just patched over them, rather than spend the money to fix them properly.

WTF?!?!? :(

How many days can people survive without water? :( Maybe less if they are injured and losing blood.

Should they spray water and maybe it trickles to the survivors so sip on? Pieces may slide but does it matter if you can't reach the people and they die with no water? I guess people should always keep water with them.

Simaahoy

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:09 PM

Where are the troops? The troops are willing to help Afghans but not our own citizens? What is happening?????

CSK'sMom

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:11 PM

Where are the troops? The troops are willing to help Afghans but not our own citizens? What is happening?????

Feds say qualified troops are on standby but they cannot be deployed to help until they are requested by the province. At this point, the province has not requested them....

vero95

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:17 PM

Feds say qualified troops are on standby but they cannot be deployed to help until they are requested by the province. At this point, the province has not requested them....

Harper offers military support in Elliot Lake rescue

“No official request at this time from the province,” he added.
http://www.thespec.com/news/canada/article/750228--harper-offers-military-support-in-elliot-lake-rescue

shame

BornRuff

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:28 PM

http://www.thespec.com/news/canada/article/750228--harper-offers-military-support-in-elliot-lake-rescue

shame

What do you think that the military could do that is not already being done?

gilboman

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:44 PM

http://www.thespec.com/news/canada/article/750228--harper-offers-military-support-in-elliot-lake-rescue

shame

We aren't talking about ferrying politicians to a fishing trip here or airlifting in gazebo's. How would trucking in a F-35 mock up help?

CSK'sMom

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:45 PM

What do you think that the military could do that is not already being done?

Frankly, I think the more knowledgeable people up there who actually have experience with disasters like this ... the better. The more opinions the better as they say....

gilboman

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:48 PM

It's a shame we have so many armchair experts here. People who do not understand the first step of emergency planning thinking they have a clue what they are saying.

Without identifying the the situation and what's required first and sending in everything and everybody including the kitchen sink is a layman's way of doing it and is not how it should be done.

It's like don't you want the doctor to diagnose you first before jumping into treatment? Or you rather just be prescribed any and everything first?
If you don't strive to understand and determine what your needs are, you are doing nothing other than patronizing the lowest intelligence group of people who just want to see action, and not the correct action.

This is the difference between educated and uneducated approach. Scientific approach vs neanderthal approach.

gilboman

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:49 PM

Frankly, I think the more knowledgeable people up there who actually have experience with disasters like this ... the better. The more opinions the better as they say....

so not the military unless there are roadside bombs or insurgents in the mall? We need to fill some sandbags?

more is not equal to better.

flashy_mcflash

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:49 PM

Frankly, I think the more knowledgeable people up there who actually have experience with disasters like this ... the better. The more opinions the better as they say....

I'm not sure that'd be the case here. Elliott isn't exactly huge and a bunch of useless people could hamper rather than help these efforts. The mining folks probably have more practical training, equipment, and expertise in this particular situation than a lot of the military personnel do.

CSK'sMom

Jun 26th, 2012, 04:54 PM

so not the military unless there are roadside bombs or insurgents in the mall?

more is not equal to better.

I'm not sure that'd be the case here. Elliott isn't exactly huge and a bunch of useless people could hamper rather than help these efforts. The mining folks probably have more practical training, equipment, and expertise in this particular situation than a lot of the military personnel do.

Towes and Harper both said there is a dedicated search and rescue military group for this kind of disaster....

BTW, 2 of the comments on that Spec article posted about are quite interesting. Have a read...

HUSAR provides rescue prevention! How sad that would-be professional rescuers are the ones to give up on the buried. What is the point of having a specialist team that's too soft to mount a serious rescue effort. Don't they know that step one is to shore up the building? Where are their engineers? I recall this team at work in Toronto a few years ago when the Uptown Backstage theater collapsed onto a building next door that contained a language school. Footage of the (failed) rescue on TV showed them digging through a pile of brick rubble with their bare hands. Some professionals; so well equipped that they didn't seem to even have the appropriate gloves in their gear kit. Wouldn't you expect that a heavy search and rescue unit might have some heavy equipment and specialized rescue techniques? They looked no different than the civilians one often sees at work in the aftermath of building collapses in the third world, only working more slowly, and so few of them. I think the idea of a professional heavy rescue team may just be flawed. Presumably drawn from the Fire Department, they come from a culture that has become extremely risk-averse over the years. Too risk-averse for this kind of thing. Perhaps this type of rescue ought to be performed by the truly brave and motivated, as in mine collapses. This type of work IS too dangerous to be done by anyone other than committed VOLUNTEERS. They could still be paid but nobody can be ordered to do work that is this dangerous due to the workplace safety standards that have been developed over the years.

I am curious why a rescue team is lead by a City of Toronto Staf Inspector? Does this team plan on lifting debris off a victim and then arresting them? What qualifications does a Toronto Cop bring to the table in rescue? Is he an engineer or able to use heavy machinery? If this had happened in the rural areas would the HUSR refuse to react because it is not within their mandate? Who is Staff Inspector's Neadles immediate superior, Captain Monty Python? How much money is spent on this organization per year? Have they ever saved a life or do they just bring in a really big ladder to get the cat out of the tree. I hope I have offended someone because I think it is iresponsible to have to think about the military three days after the disaster. Someone should be accountable. Unless there is some good news soon the townspeople of Elliot Lake are going to be very upset.

fenrus

Jun 26th, 2012, 05:14 PM

Good lord, I'd hate to imagine the emergency response of our government when a big earthquake hits.

"It's unsafe here guys, we're leaving."

stuntman

Jun 26th, 2012, 05:41 PM

wrrrrrroooooong again a-tree.....well actually it is the same wrong you keep repeating. You are hardly worth any keystrokes.

Why are you telling me about how roofing is done? My point is that blame cannot be discussed with a few pictures and how there is a clean break. Blame can only be discussed after an assessment by an engineer

Your point is moot because you are wrong before now, now and later on. WRONG!

Allan has the experience and insight to obtain knowledge from those pictures. You don't. He made an observation.
Allan knows more than you. Just because you are not educated or experienced in something does not mean that someone else is not.

You may have no business discussing it or other things but it does not seem to stop your ignorance from lurching forward. I think Allan has good insight. He even has the brains not to jump to a presumptuous conclusion.

Culpability cannot be determined by a few pictures and a few witness statements.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: it certainly can in many cases. Maybe even this one.

Just because you don't have the brains, knowledge or education to make a determination does not mean someone else does not. Stop being presumptuous please it is annoying and a waste. Others are better informed than you, you just have to accept that fact.

BornRuff

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:00 PM

Towes and Harper both said there is a dedicated search and rescue military group for this kind of disaster....

BTW, 2 of the comments on that Spec article posted about are quite interesting. Have a read...

There is also a dedicated domestic team for this kind of disaster, the Heavy Urban Search and Rescue team. which was dispatched immediately.

BornRuff

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:03 PM

Frankly, I think the more knowledgeable people up there who actually have experience with disasters like this ... the better. The more opinions the better as they say....

Who is they? I hear the term "too many cooks in the kitchen" much more often than anything like this.

BornRuff

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:10 PM

I'm not sure that'd be the case here. Elliott isn't exactly huge and a bunch of useless people could hamper rather than help these efforts. The mining folks probably have more practical training, equipment, and expertise in this particular situation than a lot of the military personnel do.

I don't really know how similar this situation would be to a mining disaster.

CSK'sMom

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:15 PM

Who is they? I hear the term "too many cooks in the kitchen" much more often than anything like this.

The specialized, experienced Military team that is equipped and on standby...

I don't really know how similar this situation would be to a mining disaster.

Really???? Mining disasters are often very similar to this. Finding people under rubble and figuring out how to bring them out. One is underground and one above but similar none the less...

a-tree

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:32 PM

wrrrrrroooooong again a-tree.....well actually it is the same wrong you keep repeating. You are hardly worth any keystrokes.

Your point is moot because you are wrong before now, now and later on. WRONG!

Allan has the experience and insight to obtain knowledge from those pictures. You don't. He made an observation.
Allan knows more than you. Just because you are not educated or experienced in something does not mean that someone else is not.

You may have no business discussing it or other things but it does not seem to stop your ignorance from lurching forward. I think Allan has good insight. He even has the brains not to jump to a presumptuous conclusion.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: it certainly can in many cases. Maybe even this one.

Just because you don't have the brains, knowledge or education to make a determination does not mean someone else does not. Stop being presumptuous please it is annoying and a waste. Others are better informed than you, you just have to accept that fact.

Being presumptuous is when you take a look at a few pictures and witness accounts and then lay blame on someone without consulting experts, who are the only ones in position to make such a claim.

stuntman

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:32 PM

The specialized, experienced Military team that is equipped and on standby...

Really???? Mining disasters are often very similar to this. Finding people under rubble and figuring out how to bring them out. One is underground and one above but similar none the less...

It makes a big difference. Miners know about underground structures not about above ground ones. They would need someone experienced in collapsed buildings to lead them and possibly micromanage them.

a-tree

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:36 PM

It makes a big difference. Miners know about underground structures not about above ground ones. They would need someone experienced in collapsed buildings to lead them and possibly micromanage them.

Tell that to the miners themselves. You should tell them how ignorant they are for thinking how they can be of help.

_Allan_

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:38 PM

stuntman

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:40 PM

Being presumptuous is when you take a look at a few pictures and witness accounts and then lay blame on someone without consulting experts, who are the only ones in position to make such a claim.

oh a-tree:facepalm:
Your original statement was that pictures and statements are not enough to determine culpability
My statement: Yes, in some cases it is because some people have the knowledge to do so <--apparently you did not think so
You then went on to say blah blah blah
Your NEW statement experts can make such a determination.

You flip-flop like a one of those hot air wavy men at the side of the road(is that descriptive enough?)

Allan was not laying blame you troll.....he was only discussing it and he has enough insight to do so. But someone you disrespect him by saying he doesn't have enough knowledge to discuss what he sees in a few pictures. You disrespect us all a-tree.

ta ta. Keep typing, keep trolling. Your nick is worthless and carries no weight.

CSK'sMom

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:48 PM

Just saw a piece on Global National.... <start sarcazm> Elliot Lake should be extremely thankful it seems.<end sarcazm> Had this happened next year they would be SOL and lucky to get someone to show up and hand out water. Federal funding of the JEPP program, that funds all provincial HUSAR's has been discontinued. The implication is that HUSAR's will be disbanded more likely than not as 75% of the funding comes from JEPP.

BornRuff

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:50 PM

The specialized, experienced Military team that is equipped and on standby...

Really, the military team said that it is always better to have more people involved? Where can you show me where they said that?

Really???? Mining disasters are often very similar to this. Finding people under rubble and figuring out how to bring them out. One is underground and one above but similar none the less...

Finding people under rubble is sort of a superficial part of the problem. The real issue here is accessing these people safely, and doing so underground vs within an unstable building is quite a different situation.

stuntman

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:50 PM

Why didn't the mayor declare a state of emergency on Saturday? THAT would have triggered several things:

He did, didn't he? That is what he paper said at 6pm on Saturday. I think the declaration allows him to ask for certain things which he may not have.

CSK'sMom

Jun 26th, 2012, 06:50 PM

:!: Stuntman and A-tree... enough of the bicking. If you can't interact civilly and not attack each other, use the ignore feature. Continue attacking each other and bans will ensue. You will not be warned again. :!:

riccd2001

Jun 26th, 2012, 07:30 PM

BTW in a wierd bit of irony, there is a conference ongoing in TO about "...response strategy for tragic disasters..." this week. A CITY TV interview at 6pm tonight with an expert from the UK pointed out that the real or even imagined legal ramifications are seriously stalling progress in rapid, appropriate response to disasters in the UK. With the recent federal budget cut to S&R we can add Canada to that sad list now. :facepalm:

a-tree

Jun 26th, 2012, 07:33 PM

oh a-tree:facepalm:
Your original statement was that pictures and statements are not enough to determine culpability
My statement: Yes, in some cases it is because some people have the knowledge to do so <--apparently you did not think so
You then went on to say blah blah blah
Your NEW statement experts can make such a determination.

You flip-flop like a one of those hot air wavy men at the side of the road(is that descriptive enough?)

Allan was not laying blame you troll.....he was only discussing it and he has enough insight to do so. But someone you disrespect him by saying he doesn't have enough knowledge to discuss what he sees in a few pictures. You disrespect us all a-tree.

ta ta. Keep typing, keep trolling. Your nick is worthless and carries no weight.

I disagree that pictures and witness accounts are enough to determine culpability, especially when the person making that judgment is no expert in the case. As I've said, culpability implies blame, meaning someone messed up somewhere. No one on RFD can make that assessment without having expertise in engineering and actually having investigated the premises.

Maxman

Jun 26th, 2012, 07:35 PM

Someone asked about HUSAR and who was the leads etc that can be (somewhat) found via this PDFs
http://www.toronto.ca/wes/techservices/oem/husar/pdf/husar_deployment_chart.pdf
http://www.toronto.ca/wes/techservices/oem/husar/pdf/team_administration_chart.pdf

Why didn't the mayor declare a state of emergency on Saturday? THAT would have triggered several things:
1 - Ministry of Defence being sent in - their engineers, and foot soldiers would have been there a few hours on Saturday. The 'search robots' (you've seen them on TV) would have been sent in for 'keeping rescuers safe'. Large equipment would have been flown in on Herc's etc.
2 - First Aid / RED CROSS being sent in (to help with food for the searchers, housing etc.)
3 - Money from the Federal Government being sent there immediately.

Instead ... what happened? The Military wasted (yes it was a waste) millions of dollars honouring people by flying F-18 or what ever bombers over the BMO field.

I mean, if Mel Lastman can call "MAY DAY" on a few feet of damn snow, I think a building collapsing would more than qualify!

A state of emergency was called immediately by the mayor - it was the only way to get the province to send the HUSAR team.

Red Cross is not needed as there are not people needed food, shelter, clothing, medical aid. The only thing needed is an ACTIVE rescue team.

Just saw a piece on Global National.... <start sarcazm> Elliot Lake should be extremely thankful it seems.<end sarcazm> Had this happened next year they would be SOL and lucky to get someone to show up and hand out water. Federal funding of the JEPP program, that funds all provincial HUSAR's has been discontinued. The implication is that HUSAR's will be disbanded more likely than not as 75% of the funding comes from JEPP.

No kidding. Based on the performance of HUSAR, it really would be a shame to lose them!:facepalm:

Maxman

Jun 26th, 2012, 07:42 PM

Really, the military team said that it is always better to have more people involved? Where can you show me where they said that?

Finding people under rubble is sort of a superficial part of the problem. The real issue here is accessing these people safely, and doing so underground vs within an unstable building is quite a different situation.

Is this statement based on your experience? You are quick to question others statements, yet you throw out this gem?

Underground mine rescue is far more complicated than what they are dealing with in EL (think complete darkness, dust, water, lack of room to operate equiment). That is part of the frustration that people are showing - many firmly believe that if mine rescue had been sent in at the start, if the professional bureaucrats were left out of the mix, that the rescue would have been completed within 48 hours. Mine rescue has specialized equipment, training, engineers, and a willingness to help. Mine rescue is trained in bracing and reinforcing in areas where thousands of tonnes of rock could collapse, whereas this mall - you are dealing with steel beams and 6-8 inches of concrete.

stuntman

Jun 26th, 2012, 10:19 PM

Simaahoy

Jun 26th, 2012, 10:41 PM

Well, if it was Hati......

CSK'sMom

Jun 26th, 2012, 11:00 PM

There is no confirmed "list" as it's a public place apparently. There are 2 for sure, after that, who knows. Last I heard tonight the list of 30 missing has been reduced to 12 after checking on each person.

_Allan_

Jun 26th, 2012, 11:10 PM

A big transformers size arm is being brought in from Toronto to remove the elevator shaft that was sitting precariously and was the reason cited for not continuing the rescue.

Don't they have ways to find people under rubble like heat sensors and high gain microphones?

BTW: I keep reading there are 2 people missing OR 30 people missing. Which is it? that is a big gap in numbers.

The list isn't static - as people 'pop up' from where ever they were, they are removed. As others call in, because they haven't seen a person, that person is added to the list.

Also, it was stated that the escalator was being removed, not an elevator.

Tornado F2

Jun 27th, 2012, 02:28 AM

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20120623/800_roof_collapse_Elliot_Lake_120623.jpg
http://www.toledoblade.com/image/2012/06/24/800x_b1_cCM_z/Canada-Mall-Roof-Collapse-1.jpg

I could have really contributed to this thread, given my qualifications, but since I've given up on OT I'll just offer these observations:

- Why the heck are they parking on the roof of the mall? Is space really that hard to find there?

- When did they start parking on the roof? I suspect that wasn't the original design.

- The mall is apparently decades old, so it's likely a maintenance issue, along with the bad idea of parking on the roof, not necessarily anything to do with the original design/construction.

- It looks like two floors dropped directly down, with nothing substantial in place to break the fall and create protective voids (except perhaps the escalator). Sadly it is highly unlikely that anybody below survived the initial collapse. That said, I'll be delighted if they do manage to save somebody.

- It really does seem a woefully slow response, given how quickly third world countries respond to massive earthquakes. Are the authorities just afraid to admit that people have died, possibly due to their own culpability?

BTW, WRT the statement that rescue operations in the UK and elsewhere are being held back by legal concerns, those legal concerns are literally costing lives. I remember when they used to have lifeguards on duty in Niagara Falls parks to watch over swimmers. Due to liability/financial concerns the lifeguards were removed, popular swimming locations were abandoned/made difficult to access by local authorities, and numerous people have drowned there since. (No alternative, safer swim locations were made freely available to the public). I'm sure the same kind of thing is happening all over. Instead of trying to find solutions to problems, all too often today officials just look for ways to avoid responsibility or cut costs. Society really has taken a huge step backward.

BornRuff

Jun 27th, 2012, 02:54 AM

Is this statement based on your experience? You are quick to question others statements, yet you throw out this gem?

Underground mine rescue is far more complicated than what they are dealing with in EL (think complete darkness, dust, water, lack of room to operate equiment). That is part of the frustration that people are showing - many firmly believe that if mine rescue had been sent in at the start, if the professional bureaucrats were left out of the mix, that the rescue would have been completed within 48 hours. Mine rescue has specialized equipment, training, engineers, and a willingness to help. Mine rescue is trained in bracing and reinforcing in areas where thousands of tonnes of rock could collapse, whereas this mall - you are dealing with steel beams and 6-8 inches of concrete.

How can you possibly disagree that an underground mine and an unstable building are different?

vero95

Jun 27th, 2012, 07:41 AM

What do you think that the military could do that is not already being done?

are you referring to calling off the operation?

vero95

Jun 27th, 2012, 07:57 AM

How can you possibly disagree that an underground mine and an unstable building are different?

it does not matter how different they are
what matters is if they can do anything useful and you are too ignorant to assess that. what makes you think you are an expert on any subject? :facepalm:

vero95

Jun 27th, 2012, 08:03 AM

so not the military unless there are roadside bombs or insurgents in the mall? We need to fill some sandbags?

more is not equal to better.

"experts" gave up so they thought to bring in the military
what's wrong with that?
it happens quite often in normal life that a contractor is not qualified and is fired and another takes over. who says those who gave up were the best you could get?

Maxman

Jun 27th, 2012, 08:36 AM

How can you possibly disagree that an underground mine and an unstable building are different?

Is that what you got from my post? Do you really like to argue so much that you got the TOTAL OPPOSITE of what I wrote, just so you can argue? Or are you really not even reading posts in your attempts to troll everyone on these forums?:facepalm:

flashy_mcflash

Jun 27th, 2012, 09:13 AM

How can you possibly disagree that an underground mine and an unstable building are different?

Dude, he's saying (as I am) that there are key similarities which make the mining equipment/personnel useful and relevant to this situation.

vero95

Jun 27th, 2012, 09:18 AM

Dude, he's saying (as I am) that there are key similarities which make the mining equipment/personnel useful and relevant to this situation.

nice to watch when flashy explains stuff to BornRuff :D

rivett

Jun 27th, 2012, 10:55 AM

I want to take a moment to convey my hopes to the people of Elliot Lake on a successfull rescue. I know that may sound optomistic but all the rescuers believe the same.

rivett

Jun 27th, 2012, 11:05 AM

_Allan_

Jun 27th, 2012, 11:30 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLgkNxCeGdA

I can't figure out how to get CityTV's video posted here, but it has some disturbing photos.

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/videos/212306

xXxRasxXx

Jun 27th, 2012, 11:31 AM

I want to take a moment to convey my hopes to the people of Elliot Lake on a successfull rescue. I know that may sound optomistic but all the rescuers believe the same.

+1
It is Wednesday today I just feel like I am loosing hope

xXxRasxXx

Jun 27th, 2012, 11:41 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Sr2TdxktA

Here is a recording of the ACTUAL COLLAPSE very scary to listen to...

Drew87

Jun 27th, 2012, 01:15 PM

"#ElliotLake mayor confirms 1 casualty has been located and removed from mall rubble. Family has been notified. Rescuers continue efforts."

vero95

Jun 27th, 2012, 01:21 PM

Drew87

Jun 27th, 2012, 01:27 PM

BREAKING: An official says they have located a second victim in the mall in Elliot Lake. That victim is being removed now.

Maxman

Jun 27th, 2012, 01:36 PM

When you talk about miners and rescuers having a similar skill set here you may be right to a limited degree.
A miners skill set is boring through a sold mass and then making it stable with bracing. Its like drilling a hole in a block of wood although thats over symplistic.
The resuers arent doing that. They are traversing a mountain of pick up sticks from underneath where they dont know which single stick will bring the whole place down. They have to brace or remove individual pieces of a structural maze and that makes it totally different.

Thats not quite true either. Mine rescue teams are trained to work in a number of conditions including rubble. Runs of muck are one of the primary hazards in a mine (we lost two miners in Sudbury last year to a run of muck). They are highly skilled and well equipped to work in confined space, providing bracing, use high strength inflatables to support structures and protect themselves.

My father worked 40+ years in the mines and is very well trained in mine rescue. Its people of his unique skillset that should have been called in to deal with this issue, unfortunately, the mayor chose to call in the bureaucrats instead. A mine rescue team would have had that structure braced, secured, and the all people removed within 48 hours - this would have been quite easy for them compared to the conditions that they are trained to work in.

LostInTruth

Jun 27th, 2012, 01:48 PM

Such a sad and preventable situation, no need to bicker. :(

BornRuff

Jun 27th, 2012, 02:18 PM

Is that what you got from my post? Do you really like to argue so much that you got the TOTAL OPPOSITE of what I wrote, just so you can argue? Or are you really not even reading posts in your attempts to troll everyone on these forums?:facepalm:

Yes, because you bolded the part of my post where I said that mine saving someone from a mine and saving someone from an unstable building are different and challenged that statement. Any objective person can see that an unstable building and an underground mine shaft are significantly different things.

You then go on to argue that mine rescue is "more complicated" than what is happening in EL. Even if we were to agree that that is the case, it doesn't mean that mine crews are better equipped for this specific job. We could agree that baseball is a more complex sport than hockey, but if I am putting together a team to play a game of hockey, I am going to go get some hockey players.

Maxman

Jun 27th, 2012, 02:28 PM

Yes, because you bolded the part of my post where I said that mine saving someone from a mine and saving someone from an unstable building are different and challenged that statement. Any objective person can see that an unstable building and an underground mine shaft are significantly different things.

You then go on to argue that mine rescue is "more complicated" than what is happening in EL. Even if we were to agree that that is the case, it doesn't mean that mine crews are better equipped for this specific job. We could agree that baseball is a more complex sport than hockey, but if I am putting together a team to play a game of hockey, I am going to go get some hockey players.

You simplyare looking for an argument. You get off on it and it can be seen in every post you make in every thread. Your comments about "mine shaft" show you know nothing of mine rescue or mining. Bringing in a useless analogy about hockey/baseball shows that you are looking for a silly debate to build up your post count. GO AWAY!

BornRuff

Jun 27th, 2012, 02:29 PM

Dude, he's saying (as I am) that there are key similarities which make the mining equipment/personnel useful and relevant to this situation.

I simply don't buy that mining rescue teams could be any better equipped for this rescue than the guys who actually train for rescue from these buildings. Getting people out of rubble is kind of the "easier" part of both of these situations. Safely getting to the people who are trapped is the real challenge, and both situations provide very different challenges in that department.

Thats not quite true either. Mine rescue teams are trained to work in a number of conditions including rubble. Runs of muck are one of the primary hazards in a mine (we lost two miners in Sudbury last year to a run of muck). They are highly skilled and well equipped to work in confined space, providing bracing, use high strength inflatables to support structures and protect themselves.

My father worked 40+ years in the mines and is very well trained in mine rescue. Its people of his unique skillset that should have been called in to deal with this issue, unfortunately, the mayor chose to call in the bureaucrats instead. A mine rescue team would have had that structure braced, secured, and the all people removed within 48 hours - this would have been quite easy for them compared to the conditions that they are trained to work in.

The pickup sticks vs boring a hole through a piece of wood is a pretty good example of the different situations here.

Bracing an unstable building is a pretty tall order when the rood, walls, floors, and most likely the foundation are all unstable. What do you brace anything against? Miners are great at stabilizing holes in the ground, but that doesn't necessarily transfer here.

BornRuff

Jun 27th, 2012, 02:36 PM

You simplyare looking for an argument. You get off on it and it can be seen in every post you make in every thread. Your comments about "mine shaft" show you know nothing of mine rescue or mining. Bringing in a useless analogy about hockey/baseball shows that you are looking for a silly debate to build up your post count. GO AWAY!

You were the one who decided to try to argue with my simple comment about how these situations are different. The hockey/baseball example is a good way to explain to you where your logic is failing on that last argument you tried to make.

There is no reason to believe that miners could have made a positive difference here. With the act first think later mentality that some people were showing, they easily could have gotten more people killed.

xXxRasxXx

Jun 27th, 2012, 03:27 PM

Found the 2nd victim
and I am hearing from various sources that there are no more victims in the rubble.

CSK'sMom

Jun 27th, 2012, 03:31 PM

That's what they are saying. They've had dogs (both cadaver and rescue) go through the building and they didn't alert at all.

appleb

Jun 27th, 2012, 04:37 PM

I thought there were 11 people missing...

Syne

Jun 27th, 2012, 05:47 PM

I thought there were 11 people missing...

This number has been all over the place. At one point, I had heard that there were up to 30 missing persons reports they thought might be associated with the collapse. It turns out that number was inflated.

When you consider the size of the collapse and how populated that mall is (it's pretty empty most of the time) it's hard to believe so many people could have possibly been involved.

vero95

Jun 27th, 2012, 05:59 PM

I simply don't buy that mining rescue teams could be any better equipped for this rescue than the guys who actually train for rescue from these buildings. Getting people out of rubble is kind of the "easier" part of both of these situations. Safely getting to the people who are trapped is the real challenge, and both situations provide very different challenges in that department.

The pickup sticks vs boring a hole through a piece of wood is a pretty good example of the different situations here.

Bracing an unstable building is a pretty tall order when the rood, walls, floors, and most likely the foundation are all unstable. What do you brace anything against? Miners are great at stabilizing holes in the ground, but that doesn't necessarily transfer here.

“If it’s unstable, you stabilize it,” said Aurele Beaupre, a mine rescue veteran from the nearby Denison uranium mine. “We’d have broken through the wall, gone in with supports and inflated an air pillow.”

In the mid-1980s, at Denison, they mobilized rescue crews after a tunnel collapse that ultimately killed three miners. “They didn’t stop, they didn’t give up — you just don’t quit when you know you’ve got life in there,” said Mr. Rheaume.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/26/elliot-lake-mall-collapse-rescue/

“If you had put 100 miners in there, they would have been out by Saturday,” said Greg Dillavough, a retired miner who once worked in mine rescue in the Northwest Territories and Ontario. “You don’t walk away from a site when someone’s alive.”
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/27/elliot-lake-mall-efforts-unravel-romance-of-rescue-missions/

BornRuff

Jun 27th, 2012, 06:34 PM

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/26/elliot-lake-mall-collapse-rescue/

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/27/elliot-lake-mall-efforts-unravel-romance-of-rescue-missions/

Do you not worry that if there were 100 miners in there knocking down walls that we might have 102 people dead right now instead of 2?

Nobody can argue that their intentions are not good. They want to help. But the first consideration in any rescue attempt is to ensure that you don't create more casualties.

a-tree

Jun 27th, 2012, 06:37 PM

gilboman

Jun 27th, 2012, 07:14 PM

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/26/elliot-lake-mall-collapse-rescue/

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/27/elliot-lake-mall-efforts-unravel-romance-of-rescue-missions/

Yes, retired miners who have zero experience in urban rescue and zero knowledge of actual conditions area great source of insight. They also have zero education on structural engineering

vero95

Jun 28th, 2012, 12:23 PM

*****************************

*****************************

Yes, retired miners who have zero experience in urban rescue and zero knowledge of actual conditions area great source of insight. They also have zero education on structural engineering
you seem to have lots of knowledge though to make such comments :facepalm:

cops started an investigation to decide if criminal charges will be laid. I can understand that a buildng can collaps due to a disaster but it's quite unilkely it does so for no reason especailly after being inspected and assessed as structurally safe

vero95

Jun 28th, 2012, 03:04 PM

Do you not worry that if there were 100 miners in there knocking down walls that we might have 102 people dead right now instead of 2?

Nobody can argue that their intentions are not good. They want to help. But the first consideration in any rescue attempt is to ensure that you don't create more casualties.

what source are you quoting that this operation was too risky to continue? in the end, they found a way so you are obviously wrong
the delay might have caused deaths though. I will leave it to the investigation but you seem to know much better already. could you share your source?

BornRuff

Jun 28th, 2012, 03:07 PM

what source are you quoting that this operation was too risky to continue? in the end, they found a way so you are obviously wrong
the delay might have caused deaths though. I will leave it to the investigation but you seem to know much better already. could you share your source?

The comment was about having 100 miners knock down walls and run into the building. That never happened, so how is suggesting that that might be unsafe wrong? That idea was never considered safe by anyone.

vero95

Jun 28th, 2012, 03:16 PM

The comment was about having 100 miners knock down walls and run into the building. That never happened, so how is suggesting that that might be unsafe wrong? That idea was never considered safe by anyone.

your comment had no base. you do not ensure there are no more casualties by calling off the operation. there are other ways which whoever was making decisions there was not aware of. those are the facts
there is always risk in rescue operations. just bringing up the risk factor is not an answer. we might as well get rid of all rescue teams and use firefighters to remove cats from trees unless it's also too risky for you
so what facts are you using that 100 miners would be dead?

leave it to the investigation

Drew87

Jun 28th, 2012, 03:17 PM

It's hilarious that every topic vero posts in (or least 2 that I've seen so far), there's some sort of argument....

Common denominator or is it just me?

vero95

Jun 28th, 2012, 03:26 PM

It's hilarious that every topic vero posts in (or least 2 that I've seen so far), there's some sort of argument....

Common denominator or is it just me?

just you
to have an argument you need at least two people ;)

BornRuff

Jun 28th, 2012, 03:34 PM

your comment had no base. you do not ensure there are no more casualties by calling off the operation. there are other ways which whoever was making decisions there was not aware of. those are the facts
there is always risk in rescue operations. just bringing up the risk factor is not an answer. we might as well get rid of all rescue teams and use firefighters to remove cats from trees unless it's also too risky for you
so what facts are you using that 100 miners would be dead?

leave it to the investigation

You posted quotes about miners wanting to knock down walls and run into the building, and also another one saying that if they let 100 miners in there, it would have been over on Saturday.

I am simply saying that in an unstable building, 100 guys running around knocking down walls could easily result in further collapse of the building and any or all of them could be killed or injured.

If you have ever taken any training related to this kind of stuff, from first aid to first responder training, personal safety is always stressed. Real life isn't an action movie. Getting yourself hurt only reduces focus on the initial victims and possibly puts others at risk when they have to come save you.

Engineers declared the building unstable. If those 100 miners were inside and the building collapsed further, this would have become a much much bigger tragedy.

johnboy

Jun 28th, 2012, 03:41 PM

From National Post letters of the day:

"If I get caught in a disaster, I hope it is in the Third World"

vero95

Jun 28th, 2012, 04:07 PM

You posted quotes about miners wanting to knock down walls and run into the building, and also another one saying that if they let 100 miners in there, it would have been over on Saturday.

I am simply saying that in an unstable building, 100 guys running around knocking down walls could easily result in further collapse of the building and any or all of them could be killed or injured.

If you have ever taken any training related to this kind of stuff, from first aid to first responder training, personal safety is always stressed. Real life isn't an action movie. Getting yourself hurt only reduces focus on the initial victims and possibly puts others at risk when they have to come save you.

Engineers declared the building unstable. If those 100 miners were inside and the building collapsed further, this would have become a much much bigger tragedy.

1. why would I rather listen to you who has no clue about rescue missions than to miners who have lots of experience with rescue missions
2. if you claim that rescue operations in structural building is very different, look at point 1

BornRuff

Jun 28th, 2012, 04:26 PM

1. why would I rather listen to you who has no clue about rescue missions than to miners who have lots of experience with rescue missions
2. if you claim that rescue operations in structural building is very different, look at point 1

I have rescued people before, just not in a collapsed mall. Since these guys have not rescued anyone in a collapsed mall either, there is little reason to put that much more weight in what they said.

Shaner

Jun 28th, 2012, 05:36 PM

I have rescued people before, just not in a collapsed mall. Since these guys have not rescued anyone in a collapsed mall either, there is little reason to put that much more weight in what they said.

Believe me, I rarely agree with Vero, but to say an "urban rescue" at a collapsed mall and a rescue in a collapsed mine are different is a bit misleading. Yes, they are definitely different, but so is each and every individual mine rescue that's done. While the materials that need to be moved/secured are a bit different, the fact remains that the principles are pretty much the same.

You're right in that you can't have 100 miners running in there knocking down anything in their way, but to their credit, that's not how they operate. They would have secured anything that required securing, then they would have began the process of removing the debris. This other team waited until the 3rd day before they finally secured that damn escalator. That is absolutely unacceptable.

What should have happened is a rescue team should have been called in, along with engineers, to evaluate what needed to be done to rescue anyone trapped. All these people should have been on site the same day of the collapse. Upon determining it was too dangerous to enter, they should have immediately called for any and all machinery needed to continue the rescue efforts. There's no reason to think all that machinery couldn't have been flown in within 24 hours of the collapse. I don't care if it means getting a Canadian Forces transport plane, if that's what it takes. Seeing how quick things went once they finally got the advanced machinery, there's no reason to think the survivors and/or bodies of those who were trapped shouldn't have been out of that debris within 48 hours at the most.

There were unreasonable delays, regardless of who should or shouldn't have been there doing the job. Perhaps lives could have been saved.

BornRuff

Jun 28th, 2012, 05:51 PM

Believe me, I rarely agree with Vero, but to say an "urban rescue" at a collapsed mall and a rescue in a collapsed mine are different is a bit misleading. Yes, they are definitely different, but so is each and every individual mine rescue that's done. While the materials that need to be moved/secured are a bit different, the fact remains that the principles are pretty much the same.

You're right in that you can't have 100 miners running in there knocking down anything in their way, but to their credit, that's not how they operate. They would have secured anything that required securing, then they would have began the process of removing the debris. This other team waited until the 3rd day before they finally secured that damn escalator. That is absolutely unacceptable.

What should have happened is a rescue team should have been called in, along with engineers, to evaluate what needed to be done to rescue anyone trapped. All these people should have been on site the same day of the collapse. Upon determining it was too dangerous to enter, they should have immediately called for any and all machinery needed to continue the rescue efforts. There's no reason to think all that machinery couldn't have been flown in within 24 hours of the collapse. I don't care if it means getting a Canadian Forces transport plane, if that's what it takes. Seeing how quick things went once they finally got the advanced machinery, there's no reason to think the survivors and/or bodies of those who were trapped shouldn't have been out of that debris within 48 hours at the most.

There were unreasonable delays, regardless of who should or shouldn't have been there doing the job. Perhaps lives could have been saved.

I don't buy that it was that simple. If you could just secure what needed to be secured, I believe that it would have been done.

Shaner

Jun 28th, 2012, 08:48 PM

I don't buy that it was that simple. If you could just secure what needed to be secured, I believe that it would have been done.

But that really is the basis of rescue in missions such as this one. Sure it's easier said than done of course, but the rescue team that was involved did just that, they secured the area, then removed debris as needed until they could recover the bodies.

The problem is, they didn't initially have the appropriate equipment, and they should have had it much sooner than they did. There wasn't even any talk about the equipment being sent to Elliot Lake until there was an uproar over them calling off the rescue mission.

James_TheVirus

Jun 28th, 2012, 10:03 PM

What should have happened is a rescue team should have been called in, along with engineers, to evaluate what needed to be done to rescue anyone trapped. All these people should have been on site the same day of the collapse. Upon determining it was too dangerous to enter, they should have immediately called for any and all machinery needed to continue the rescue efforts. There's no reason to think all that machinery couldn't have been flown in within 24 hours of the collapse. I don't care if it means getting a Canadian Forces transport plane, if that's what it takes. Seeing how quick things went once they finally got the advanced machinery, there's no reason to think the survivors and/or bodies of those who were trapped shouldn't have been out of that debris within 48 hours at the most.

To be fair...Priestly did a great job and quickly! I read in the Globe they received the call around 10pm, and by mid-aft the next day, they had all of the required equipment in place and within hours had the bodies out. Why did the team take so long to ask for the specialized equipment, and why did they think that some tiny little cranes would manage to pull everything out easily?

_Allan_

Jun 28th, 2012, 11:45 PM

BornRuff

Jun 28th, 2012, 11:58 PM

But that really is the basis of rescue in missions such as this one. Sure it's easier said than done of course, but the rescue team that was involved did just that, they secured the area, then removed debris as needed until they could recover the bodies.

The problem is, they didn't initially have the appropriate equipment, and they should have had it much sooner than they did. There wasn't even any talk about the equipment being sent to Elliot Lake until there was an uproar over them calling off the rescue mission.

The thing is that the equipment that was eventually used was part of a different strategy, plan B or C. It wasn't like they did nothing until the new equipment was brought in.

They essentially started demolishing the building with the people still inside, which was apparently quite high risk.

Tornado F2

Jun 29th, 2012, 06:00 AM

What should have happened, was when they first KNEW that the large cranes would be needed, was to call the Military, get a couple of the CH-148 Cyclones on the move. It's 400km from Toronto to Elliot Lake. Carrying the weight of the cranes (well within the capabilities of the CH-148) would have slowed it down. So maybe from going 300kph, they would probably have gone 200kph, and taken a bit over 2 hours to drop the cranes in Elliot Lake.
Not only that, but, as soon as the crane was dropped, the chopper could have been used to lift the escalator out of the hole, making the rescue even quicker.

I personally think, if they had mobilized the cranes and choppers on Saturday (or even Sunday!) than the death toll would have probably been just 1 person.

The military are running so far behind schedule on that program it's not funny. Apparently they only have two underpowered units delivered so far, for training use. Besides, it's intended for use with the Navy.

A more practical option would have been to use a similar-sized civilian chopper, or a Sikorsky Skcrane if one were available. But then you'd have liability issues to consider.

It's a shame that International Rescue's insurance premiums got too high. They would have had the rescue completed in a single one hour episode. FAB.

http://models2u.co.uk/Shop/contents/media/l_1214_mole_thunderbirds.jpg

BTW, for those thinking miners should have rushed in, bear in mind that they dig through rock layers that have been stationary for literally eons. This mall's rubble had only been in its current unstable state for hours/days - a huge difference. They might have achieved results, but more likely not. Besides, the two victims may have actually died instantly. The autopsies should reveal the true facts.

What's with McGuinty offering the mall employees financial support? Hasn't he heard of a federal program called EI? Besides, if the demolition was as "surgical" as the spokesman claimed, stores like Zellers should still be able to operate. Though Zellers are supposed to be shutting down anyway, aren't they?

mbg

Jun 29th, 2012, 06:52 AM

Am I missing something or did part of a parking lot collapse at a shopping mall in a retirement community?

Why is this still a story? And, especially, why did it become a political issue?

habs77

Jun 29th, 2012, 08:05 AM

The thing is that the equipment that was eventually used was part of a different strategy, plan B or C. It wasn't like they did nothing until the new equipment was brought in.

They essentially started demolishing the building with the people still inside, which was apparently quite high risk.

Having family living up in Smelliot Lake I have been to the mall numerous times. Let me just tell U it is EXACTLY what ppl have been saying: a disaster waiting to happen.

After the disaster, the powers-that-be declared a "no-fly-zone" within a 3 km radius around the town, saying that the sounds of planes flying overhead would make rubble shake and come down. So how did they think cranes, earth movers, etc would be able to come in without making a sound...?

Furthermore, while officials declared a "no-fly-zone" the airport (yes, Elliot Lake has an airport) was not even notified!

I think this is one thing Dalton did right was to tell them: "Get back there and keep working".

Syne

Jun 29th, 2012, 03:56 PM

I think the point is that same-day response was needed here and we didn't even come close to hitting the mark.

Tornado F2

Jun 29th, 2012, 04:11 PM

I think the point is that same-day response was needed here and we didn't even come close to hitting the mark.

Actually what was needed here was previous-day/month/year/decade response. It had been an obvious disaster-waiting-to-happen for ages, yet nobody had done anything about it. Sadly all anybody seems to be concerned about these days is cutting costs, and lives are repeatedly being lost as a result. And guess what - the "rescue"/demolition/restoration is going to end up costing a lot more than a proper fix would anyway.

BornRuff

Jun 29th, 2012, 04:19 PM

Actually what was needed here was previous-day/month/year/decade response. It had been an obvious disaster-waiting-to-happen for ages, yet nobody had done anything about it. Sadly all anybody seems to be concerned about these days is cutting costs, and lives are repeatedly being lost as a result. And guess what - the "rescue"/demolition/restoration is going to end up costing a lot more than a proper fix would anyway.

+1

I wish more people would focus their anger on the people who caused this than the first responders and rescue personnel.

Tornado F2

Jun 29th, 2012, 04:37 PM

+1

I wish more people would focus their anger on the people who caused this than the first responders and rescue personnel.

Even then, anger gets us nowhere.

Far better to learn from this and take preventative action, even if the costs seem high, to avoid future unnecessary (and infinitely more expensive) disasters.

An obvious remedy to this one would have been to stop parking on the roof. Why was that deemed necessary anyway?

Personally I'm surprised this didn't happen this past winter, under the weight of snow and a plow. Though the design looks seriously flawed for roof parking anyway. That's why I suspect this wasn't part of the original design.

vero95

Jun 29th, 2012, 05:00 PM

+1

I wish more people would focus their anger on the people who caused this than the first responders and rescue personnel.

why handling the rescue operation should not be evaluated?

BornRuff

Jun 29th, 2012, 05:52 PM

why handling the rescue operation should not be evaluated?

Where does my post say anything about not evaluating any part of this?

CSK'sMom

Jun 29th, 2012, 06:32 PM

Shaner

Jun 29th, 2012, 06:42 PM

McGuinty has called for a public inquiry late today that will encompass both the rescue efforts and the mall itself and it's issues.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1219244--elliot-lake-mall-roof-collapse-calls-for-public-inquiry-growing-louder

It would be nice if bureaucrats would just stay the hell out of these things to begin with. Have a very skilled team with one guy in charge, and when the team is activated the boss answers to no one, not even the PM or Premier. He should call all shots and have unlimited resources available to him to get the job done, including any and all equipment and personnel available to him, no questions asked and no delays.

Instead we have the mayor Elliot Lake and McGuinty getting involved. These guys shouldn't be involved in things like this to begin with.

Tornado F2

Jun 29th, 2012, 06:46 PM

A public inquiry, huh? There go another billion dollars of taxpayers' money.

The mall only cost $10 million to build in the first place. (Which of course was part of the problem).

CSK'sMom

Jun 29th, 2012, 09:19 PM

It would be nice if bureaucrats would just stay the hell out of these things to begin with. Have a very skilled team with one guy in charge, and when the team is activated the boss answers to no one, not even the PM or Premier. He should call all shots and have unlimited resources available to him to get the job done, including any and all equipment and personnel available to him, no questions asked and no delays.

Instead we have the mayor Elliot Lake and McGuinty getting involved. These guys shouldn't be involved in things like this to begin with.

Really Shaner? Lets see...

Have a very skilled team with one guy in charge... Well this is where the debate starts. Were they actually skilled enough to deal with something like this. We certainly pay millions of dollars for them to "train"

and when the team is activated the boss answers to no one, not even the PM or Premier... Well that certainly wasn't the case. Depending on the version of the "miscommunication" you believe, Ministry of Labour told them to get out and stay out. These are volunteers BTW.

He should call all shots and have unlimited resources available to him to get the job done, including any and all equipment and personnel available to him, no questions asked and no delays... Well they certainly didn't have the resources, equipment or personnel and apparently didn't know so till late Monday night. Something wrong there for a "highly trained" team...

As for the Mayor of Elliot Lake getting involved, I would expect no less from my Mayor. Just sad to see it took the Premier getting involved to get this "highly trained team" to think outside the box, as it were instead of packing up to go home...

Maybe I am a little jaded with this catastrophe. We know most of the guys on our Fire Dept's Search and Rescue Team. They are the ones that do the gorge rescues, Niagara River rescues, etc. when silly people do silly things. We've talked with most of them while this was going on and all were appalled at the actions of that team. To not know they didn't have the equipment needed for over 48 hrs, to give up and pack up... None of it sits well with the guys we know. Even more so when this is supposed to be the best of the best that we have paid millions of dollars to train for just just an incident...

vero95

Jun 29th, 2012, 09:33 PM

Really Shaner? Lets see...

Have a very skilled team with one guy in charge... Well this is where the debate starts. Were they actually skilled enough to deal with something like this. We certainly pay millions of dollars for them to "train"

and when the team is activated the boss answers to no one, not even the PM or Premier... Well that certainly wasn't the case. Depending on the version of the "miscommunication" you believe, Ministry of Labour told them to get out and stay out. These are volunteers BTW.

He should call all shots and have unlimited resources available to him to get the job done, including any and all equipment and personnel available to him, no questions asked and no delays... Well they certainly didn't have the resources, equipment or personnel and apparently didn't know so till late Monday night. Something wrong there for a "highly trained" team...

As for the Mayor of Elliot Lake getting involved, I would expect no less from my Mayor. Just sad to see it took the Premier getting involved to get this "highly trained team" to think outside the box, as it were instead of packing up to go home...

Maybe I am a little jaded with this catastrophe. We know most of the guys on our Fire Dept's Search and Rescue Team. They are the ones that do the gorge rescues, Niagara River rescues, etc. when silly people do silly things. We've talked with most of them while this was going on and all were appalled at the actions of that team. To not know they didn't have the equipment needed for over 48 hrs, to give up and pack up... None of it sits well with the guys we know. Even more so when this is supposed to be the best of the best that we have paid millions of dollars to train for just just an incident...

actually I agree with Shaner that McGuinty should not be involved as much into it, example: forcing the rescuers to go back. it was also risky from him if anything happened since he took the responsibility so kudos to him (although I do not like the guy at all)
I would also see those who called off the rescue mission be punished so I agree with you as well