Steering wheel vibration with new wheels&tires

[boyohboy]

Need some help and or suggestions....

I just got a set of new wheels & tires from DiscountTire. I installed them on my car and I noticed there was a bit of steering wheel vibration at highway speed. Had the front tire balance re-checked, but was told I need hub rings... which I kinda assumed not needed since it was shipped without, but silly me. I contacted DiscountTire and they re-sent me the hub rings.

So I re-installed the wheels with the hub rings, making sure the hub, bore were clean, everything fit snug no problem. But the steering wheel vibration now actually GOT WORSE noticeably!!

I already tried re-re-installing them to double-double check everything and still the same. Tonight I tried putting the original OEM wheels+tires on the front and NO vibration (well a very very tiny bit, but the tires may not be super balanced anyway), so my car is not the source of the problem for sure. I have a 4-wheel alignment done just recently, and the new wheels+tires are supposedly Road-Force balanced.

I am at a lost here. What can be the problem!! Do I just get a bad bunch of wheels or what...
What else can I test, see or try to confirm where the problem isÉ!

Any tips appreciated

[redgrandam]

What size are the old rims and what are the new rims? I assume they are not just steelies you put on..

Several years ago, I went out to buy my first 'Brand New Car'... It was an 06 Chevy Aveo. Crappy car, but that's not the point. The dealer had 17" rims on it, with low profile tires. Good look for that little hatchback. I had exactly the same problem you are having. Was in and out of the dealer for months, sometimes for weeks at a time they had the car. I think the rims were just too heavy and the steering system wasn't designed for a wheel that was that big in diameter, so any tiny defect in the wheel would reflect into the steering components. Their final solution was to tighten up the steering system so the steering was super stiff, and said it was fixed. They tried hubcentric rings as well.

I never found out what the actual problem was but after they did that to the steering it was all messed up, and I gave them the car back.

Make sure you have the hubcentric rings on the right way...

Are the lug holes in the new rim tapered? Round? Flat? There are different style lug nuts for each. Tapered are the best as they will centre the rim too.

Older car? Rust where the wheel rests on the hub?

[boyohboy]

Thanks... The new rims are the same size as the old rims at 17inch. The new tires are a tad bigger at 215-50-17, instead of the old 205-50-17. So weight should not be an issue I think. And I know from my cars forum alot of ppl has used 215-50 without any problem.

The lug nuts (old & new) are all tapered.

I have been really careful to clean off any particles & rust from the hub before I mounted the wheels... and Iève installed them 3 times already...

[Kunman]

interested, hav the exact same problem with new summer tires on suv.

[Scott84]

Try rotating the tires front to back... to see if it makes a difference.... if there is a problem... that way maybe you can isolate the problem to a specific rim/tire....

When a tire/rim needs a re-balancing, most people feel it around 100-110 km/h+...

I have never had my wheels roadforce balanced. And never had a problem where roadforce balancing was needed to fix a wheel that wouldn't balance.

[macnut]

As you suspected, the most likely cause should be a balance issue.

On any of the wheels is there more weights applied than on the others? This would suggest discounttire encountered a bit of an issue with runout on that rim and/or the tire was difficult to balance.

But as you have had them rebalanced (and cut into your savings on the deal) that can probably be eliminated.

As can wheel alignment (doesn't cause steering wheel vibration anyway, and yours was good to start with).

The hub-centric rings making the vibration worse should be a clue. Can you be sure they are the correct rings for your application?

Is the offset of the new wheels markedly different from stock? (If too little offset, increased track will have greater leverage on the steering axis, or, expose previously unnoticed wear in the front end/steering gear.)

Are you confident you have the right p.s.i. for the slightly wider and taller tires? (Too low a pressure can cause steering wheel vibration.)

Are the new lug nuts the right length? With new wheels on, is the same length of stud showing as with original wheels? Are the the lug nuts bottoming out before correct torque reached? Centering rings have an impact there?.

[boyohboy]

Try rotating the tires front to back... to see if it makes a difference..... Guess will have to try that too... that gona take awhile to do :(... esp it is quite a long drive from my home to a non-conjested highway .


As you suspected, the most likely cause should be a balance issue.

On any of the wheels is there more weights applied than on the others? Ok... have to check that tomorrow...

The hub-centric rings making the vibration worse should be a clue. Can you be sure they are the correct rings for your application? AFAIK they should be correct. I double-check the size of the wheels & hub, and the rings fit snug, with no gap, on the wheels and on the hub.

Is the offset of the new wheels markedly different from stock? (If too little offset, increased track will have greater leverage on the steering axis, or, expose previously unnoticed wear in the front end/steering gear.)
OEM is 62mm or so... new wheels are 45mm, plus the slightly wider tires. So a total of 44mm wider I think? Any ways I can check for potential wear in steering gear myself? May be abit difficult.

Are you confident you have the right p.s.i. for the slightly wider and taller tires? Fairly sure, but will certainly double check tomorrow.

Are the new lug nuts the right length? With new wheels on, is the same length of stud showing as with original wheels? Are the the lug nuts bottoming out before correct torque reached? Centering rings have an impact there?. The hub rings are really thin (73mm-67.1mm) so donèt think they affect the lugs. I tried both the OEM nuts and the new set of nuts, they both can bolt on tight holding the wheels as far as I can tell. The new nuts are longer tho.

Replies to suggestions in BOLD within quote. Thanks

[boyohboy]

As you suspected, the most likely cause should be a balance issue.

On any of the wheels is there more weights applied than on the others? This would suggest discounttire encountered a bit of an issue with runout on that rim and/or the tire was difficult to balance.

Just checked the weights.... 3 of the wheels have 2 to 5 pieces of 0.25oz weights. But the 1 wheel on the front has 13 pieces (EDIT: typo... should be 11 pieces instead)...... :mad:

I will have to do some more wheels rotations to see if I can isolate the problem (hopefully) on that wheel. Too darn hot right now, I will do it later tonight....

[Jon04CTS]

When you rotate the wheels front to back, do one side, not both. It will quickly help you isolate the problem. Your vibration is on the front right now. Rotate either your left or right sides only. If you rotate your left side and the vibration remains through the steering wheel, your problem is the left front wheel. If the vibration moves to the back, it's your right rear wheel (previously your right front).

Take your wheel to a reputable wheel shop and ask them to spin it. I recommend Carcones in Aurora. They can tell if your wheel is bent or damaged. You'll have to bring the wheel in on its own as they aren't a garage. They only repair wheels.

[macnut]

But the 1 wheel on the front has 13 pieces....


If they are all 1/4oz. weights, that's a bit above what you'd like to see for a 17" wheel.
Makes you wonder if discounttire really tried hard enough to get the high point of the tire located opposite the high point of the rim.
If they did, and still needed over 3 oz. of weights to get it anywhere near balanced, they should maybe have ditched that rim as out of spec.

[boyohboy]

When you rotate the wheels front to back, do one side, not both. It will quickly help you isolate the problem. Your vibration is on the front right now. Rotate either your left or right sides only. If you rotate your left side and the vibration remains through the steering wheel, your problem is the left front wheel. If the vibration moves to the back, it's your right rear wheel (previously your right front)....

I think I may need to do more than you suggested. Yours will work assuming the current new rear wheels have no problem. But I think I better make sure each and every of the new wheels are ok, or not ok. I do have the old OEM wheels/tires on the fronts AT. It's gona be like an IQ trick question of what's the least numbers of rotations & how, that I need to do check each individual new wheels....


If they are all 1/4oz. weights, that's a bit above what you'd like to see for a 17" wheel.
Makes you wonder if discounttire really tried hard enough to get the high point of the tire located opposite the high point of the rim.
If they did, and still needed over 3 oz. of weights to get it anywhere near balanced, they should maybe have ditched that rim as out of spec.

I think they are 1/4oz. A little hard to read out clearly but the weights seem to have imprints ".25FE7" or something, which I guess is 0.25oz. At least the size is about what a 1/4oz usually is.

Yeah, in fact I PAID EXTRA to DiscountTire to have the wheels/tires Road-Force balanced, while the regular install/balance is free with purchase of wheels/tire package.

Finger-crossed, hopefully I can in fact isolate the cause of vibration to that single wheel/tire, AND that it is just a bad balancing job. If the rim itself is out of spec or out of round... that's gona be tough to argue with DiscountTire to get a replacement I'd think...

[Jon04CTS]

I think I may need to do more than you suggested. Yours will work assuming the current new rear wheels have no problem. But I think I better make sure each and every of the new wheels are ok, or not ok. I do have the old OEM wheels/tires on the fronts AT. It's gona be like an IQ trick question of what's the least numbers of rotations & how, that I need to do check each individual new wheels....



If you're only feeling the vibration through your steering wheel then it's only the front. I had the exact same problem last year and that's how I located my bent rim.

[boyohboy]

If you're only feeling the vibration through your steering wheel then it's only the front. I had the exact same problem last year and that's how I located my bent rim.

Yes, most likely what you said would be sufficient. ... but I just want to be absolutely sure, if possible. Since even with those 2 new front wheels causing the steering-wheel vibration, it's hard to distinguish vibration from the car vs road vibration (I'm not exactly driving a high-end sports car ;)). ... so I mean *possibly* the new wheels at the rear aren't balanced either, even tho I can't feel it thru the car, right?


BTW, I said 13 pieces of weight on that 1 front wheel..... abit of typo... it should be 11 pieces ..... a little better, but still alot I guess...

[starboy869]

11 weights at .25 = 2.75 on a new rim/tire is yuk imo. I bet there's an issue with the tire and/or rim. With being under 3 they let it pass out the door.

[boyohboy]

Hum pretty sure I can indeed isolate the cause to the wheel with the 11 weights on. Tested all 3 other wheels and they are fine.

And what happened to the DiscountTire thread in the hot deals forum? I posted there last night asking for contact and the whole thread disappeared this morning....

[boyohboy]

OMG... still can't fix the vibration problem :mad:

Just back from a reputable tire shop (Not gona mention its name since I don't want to associate the current problem with it, not its fault, don't guess...), doing Road Force balancing with the Hunter machine.... TWICE! ... and still gets vibration from the steering :(


The driver-side (left) front wheel is balanced to ~12lb force (or whatever the number stands for from the Hunter machine), and the passenger-side (right) front wheel, which I suspected to be the problem, is balanced to ~20lb (limit is 24 as indicated by the machine).



I'm gona do another front-back rotation on 1 side again tonight to double-triple confirm the current right-front wheel is the problem.
But other than that, I'm really at a lost of what's going on!?!?! The tech looked at the wheel and tire and said they looked fine. I'm going to the shop again on Friday to let to shop owner test drive the car to feel the vibration, and to get the final number smaller than 20lb on that right-front wheel .... but I kinda doubt it's gona solve it....


Any random thoughts on possible cause of the vibration? :|
Some sort of defect in the wheel that isn't visible, isn't detectable by balancer, and yet causes unbalance? Is that even possible?

[Jon04CTS]

OMG... still can't fix the vibration problem :mad:

Just back from a reputable tire shop (Not gona mention its name since I don't want to associate the current problem with it, not its fault, don't guess...), doing Road Force balancing with the Hunter machine.... TWICE! ... and still gets vibration from the steering :(


The driver-side (left) front wheel is balanced to ~12lb force (or whatever the number stands for from the Hunter machine), and the passenger-side (right) front wheel, which I suspected to be the problem, is balanced to ~20lb (limit is 24 as indicated by the machine).



I'm gona do another front-back rotation on 1 side again tonight to double-triple confirm the current right-front wheel is the problem.
But other than that, I'm really at a lost of what's going on!?!?! The tech looked at the wheel and tire and said they looked fine. I'm going to the shop again on Friday to let to shop owner test drive the car to feel the vibration, and to get the final number smaller than 20lb on that right-front wheel .... but I kinda doubt it's gona solve it....


Any random thoughts on possible cause of the vibration? :|
Some sort of defect in the wheel that isn't visible, isn't detectable by balancer, and yet causes unbalance? Is that even possible?

Rim may be bent. Take it to a wheel repair shop and have them look at it. I know in my case, my rim was damaged in a weird way. The outer edge was fine, but my center of the rim (where the holes for the luts are) was actually off center a tiny bit. The rim was not repairable.

[boyohboy]

arh :(

Aside from Carcone's, anyone has any other good wheel repair shop closer to GTA mid-town, scarborough etc?


EDIT:
Also, I'm debating if I should just try to get DiscountTire to replace that one wheel NOW.... or should I keep trying to balance/check that wheel, i.e. let the tech test-drives & re-re-rebalance, or even (as Jon04CTS suggested) go to a wheel repair shop to have that wheel checked for defect. By the time I do all these plus whatever I already did, the total cost is more than the 1 rim already....

[booblehead]

I would have taken the wheel back to Discount Tire and ask for replacment

[boyohboy]

I would have taken the wheel back to Discount Tire and ask for replacment

I kinda just want to do that now :(

Tho another concern is how can I be sure it's that wheel, or it's the tire on that wheel causing problem?

[booblehead]

You bought the set and should be under warranty. Therefore, you should let D.T. figure out which is the problem, tire or wheel or both. You have already spent enough resources in trying to solve the issue and now you should call them up and suggest you are to bring the set back to them.

[downloader]

what kind of tires did you get a brand name or so cheap made in China tires? I would just go back to DT and let them fix it.

[boyohboy]

The tires are Michelin MXV4

[adrenaline rush]

What brand are the wheels? I have a feeling that the wheel with 11 weights was manufactured badly - I would take it up with DT.

[boyohboy]

The wheels are Drag.... certainly not high-end, but overall the reviews I saw are ok. But yeah if I'd have to bet money, it'll be on that wheel too.

I just did yet another front<->back wheel/tire rotation on the side with the 11-weight-wheel, just to be like triple-sure.... :confused:

that wheel on front => car + steering wheel vibration
that wheel on rear => still car vibration, but steering wheel is mostly steady (very very slight vibration at some specific speed but I'm not driving a tuned sports car so it's ok for now)

See what the response from DiscountTireDirect will be when I call tomorrow. So far they have been nice & reasonably helpful... hopefully it'll continue...

[DJ_Peanuts22]

Did you hit a large pothole or curb recently?

A wheel might be bent.

[boyohboy]

Nope... been driving really carefully since I got the new wheels. Don't wanna scratch the shiny wheels! And also, ever since I got the new wheels & installed them, I have had vibration all the time.

But this likely will be the "my words vs them" kinda thing when I ask for a replacement....

[redgrandam]

Nope... been driving really carefully since I got the new wheels. Don't wanna scratch the shiny wheels! And also, ever since I got the new wheels & installed them, I have had vibration all the time.

But this likely will be the "my words vs them" kinda thing when I ask for a replacement....

What is their return policy? If they say you hit a pothole and it was big enough to cause enough damage to the rim, likely the tire would be damaged as well (as well as noticeable damage to the rim).

You are probably done with swapping wheels around, but you could put 3 of your old wheels on and the one bad one and see what happens, then try another one of the new ones and see if it's all good. I know they were slightly different sizes, but I don't see it being a problem for short term testing...

[boyohboy]

What is their return policy? If they say you hit a pothole and it was big enough to cause enough damage to the rim, likely the tire would be damaged as well (as well as noticeable damage to the rim).

You are probably done with swapping wheels around, but you could put 3 of your old wheels on and the one bad one and see what happens, then try another one of the new ones and see if it's all good. I know they were slightly different sizes, but I don't see it being a problem for short term testing...

I'm actually not sure about their return policy... but I think I read somewhere there is no return once used. But for defective product, I duno.


I actually tried that, somewhat, with 1 old wheel, and 1 new wheel in the front. But the car was pulling quite hard to the side with the old wheel, and I had to hold on to the steering really tight so the testing "result" was abit difficult to interpret. Forgot if tested both the 11-weighted new wheel and the other new wheel or not tho.... been doing too many tire rotation in the past week.

[redgrandam]

I'm actually not sure about their return policy... but I think I read somewhere there is no return once used. But for defective product, I duno.


I actually tried that, somewhat, with 1 old wheel, and 1 new wheel in the front. But the car was pulling quite hard to the side with the old wheel, and I had to hold on to the steering really tight so the testing "result" was abit difficult to interpret. Forgot if tested both the 11-weighted new wheel and the other new wheel or not tho.... been doing too many tire rotation in the past week.

I suppose you could do two old ones in the back and the two new ones on the front then I would think it wouldn't pull. But by now I'd definately have gone back to the shop by now.

[macnut]

But by now I'd definately have gone back to the shop by now.

I think the point is that the tire & wheel package came from DiscountTire in the States.

Always a risk when not buying locally.

Sounds like a DiscountTire tech. should have realized that either one Michelin or the wheel it was being mounted on were not quite round enough.
But maybe they contract that work out, so might be difficult.
Ideally, on contacting them they would be able to look up some record of the install and make good by shipping a replacement.
This can't be the first time such a thing has happened, so I am sure they have a procedure for defective product.

Most likely a wheel, because lateral asymmetry in the tire's construction would be felt more as a pulling problem rather than a vibration.
And if it was just an out-of-round tire, that would have been determined by now - I imagine one of the techs. involved has already tried re-positioning the tire 180 deg. on the rim.

Might be necessary to have Discount send a replacement anyway, at your expense if needed, and then get the suspect tire & wheel demounted and tested separately.
Or, having a new (full-size) spare might come in handy sometime if no one looks like coming through with a refund.

[boyohboy]

I suppose you could do two old ones in the back and the two new ones on the front then I would think it wouldn't pull.

I did that too already :)

[boyohboy]

Just finished calling DTD, the rep agreed to send me a new set of wheel/tire, and will email me a RMA for returning the defective one. Process was easy, so kudo to DTD for great service there.

I forgot to ask for reimbursement for the balancing jobs I had to do during the call tho, but I'll email them again later for that.


Now just waiting for the emails confirmation for the shipment and RMA......

[booblehead]

That's the only way to go. Nice to hear you got feedback & support from DTD.