What is the worst case scenario regarding a large deck built without a permit?

[GPS]

If anyone has knowledge or experience about permits and laws regarding backyard decks, I'd appreciate some insight. Here are the details:

We own a lakefront home in Toronto that had an existing cement patio surrounding a pool, leading to a large sloped grassy area, that led further to a wooden deck/dock just off the lake. To make better use of our space, we hired a company to build a new deck with 4 large levels made of Azek. The top and bottom levels replace existing patio/deck, but the middle two levels were made to replace the sloping grassy area. The deck is really big, about 2500 sq ft, and cost us a considerable amount.

All is well until a neighbour complains near the end of the constuction. A city inspector comes and is happy with the safety and code adherences, but says we need a permit for the middle two levels that are new. He doesn't see a problem but has to keep our file open because the neighbour is questioning the structure as it is so large.

We stop construction shortly after as I am away and then months later I get a registered letter from the manager of the permit section whom I speak to on the phone and explain the situation. He gives us a few months to apply and get the permit but insists we need one.

I get all my drawings and information in order and go down to the Etobicoke civic centre twice, just to be told they won't even accept my application for the permit until I get clearance from the Conservation Authority, since my house is on the lake. I look at the criteria and cost to apply for a C.A. permit and it is complicated. I leave it for a while again as I am overwhelmed by the documentation and criteria for this, then go away overseas again.

It has now been over 6 months since I spoke to the manager and have not heard from them again. While I was gone though, the original inspector left another card in my mailbox notifying us he was on our property. I have not called him back yet.

This has become so prolonged and now feels even more overwhelming. If we don't succeed in getting a permit or don't apply for one, what can the city do to us or the deck? I am not afraid of being fined, but can they actually demolish this or penalize us in some other way?

It also doesn't help that my next door neighbour built a 2nd floor addition on top of his old deck and also has not gotten a permit. I feel like since there are two of us, there will be even more of a target on our back.

And if anyone has had experience with the Toronto Conservation Authority, I would appreciate advice as this seems to be the biggest hurdle. Even the manager suggested we get legal help. This seems so severe for a backyard deck!

[dgnr8]

This is the worst case scenario:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1232483--battle-with-brunswick-ave-family-cost-city-about-500-000-councillor-says

Your situation doesn't seem as bad, to make the headache go away hire a lawyer and get all the paperwork done.

[bargainista!]

Yes, they can force you to demolish it.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1231835--elderly-couple-s-illegal-80-000-addition-likely-to-be-demolished

edit: ^ beat me to it!

[ABitOfUltraviolence]

This is what will happen: They'll ask for it to be removed (you say no) they take you to court (you lose).

[ABitOfUltraviolence]

Never EVER do any type of outdoors building construction without permits and especially when you have neighbours!

[Toukolou]

Your situation doesn't seem as bad, to make the headache go away hire a lawyer and get all the paperwork done.

Do this. You spent the money on the deck, consider this an unforeseen extra cost, cause it would cost you a whole lot more to tear it down.

[Manatus]

Of course they can both fine you and force you to demolish it at your expense, that's the worst case. Is that likely? Probably not that likely if you start taking this seriously. They're not going to care if you left the country or you feel overwhelmed or whatever. All they care about is they gave you a pretty generous few months and you've done nothing. From their end, it looks like you're ignoring them and hoping they'll forget about you. Take the manager's advice and get some legal help, it will make things much easier especially if you have to go overseas again, there will be someone handling it who knows what to do, and if everything really is up to code and done by reputable tradespeople, you should be fine. And really, it's not a "backyard deck". A backyard deck is something you have to put a BBQ and some patio furniture on. You have a 2,500sqft, 4 level deck... that's bigger than most people's homes, let alone a deck at a cottage.

[dorriP]

In Winnipeg, you need a permit to build according to their specifications, if you don't have a permit, they could fine you, but if something is built wrong, they can ask you to demolish the job. If you apply for a permit, they usually also do an inspection afterwards. It use to be that lots of people use to do things around here without a permit but now the laws are a lot tougher. For peace of mind, I would get a permit.
You can still come forth, and play innocent, and they may go easy on you.

[Maymybonneliveforever]

I believe your largest problem at this point is that in the eyes of the city, you're not taking this situation seriously, generally people that do don't take 6 months to file paper work that takes a week, if you feel you don't have the time or your overwhelmed, hire someone to take care of it for you. If I were the inspector I would rething my strategy since I feel he/she gave you a break and you could have been fined from day one. The fact that you've taken approximately 6 months to address this issue would leave me with the impression that maybe a fine may shake you up to get you moving again. Yes maybe a bit harsh, but some inspectors take there job seriously and the fact that you haven't address the issue may leave them wondering if you need a kick in the..........

At this point, you've been lucky in that they feel you're on the right track and there was no reason for a tear down, you've been give several breaks, don't take advantage of it. Deal with the issue and do what ever is necessary before the next step is taken by the city.

Bottom line, address the permit issue before you do indeed get fined and worse case senerio, the next step after the fine, you're asked to tear the deck down.

[boatracer]

Conservation Authority permitting is usually the most stringent since there are usually setbacks from top of slope which you cannot build on or if you can build on the slope you have to enact erosion control measures to ensure the slope does not deteriorate.

[dirtmover]

I believe your largest problem at this point is that in the eyes of the city, you're not taking this situation seriously, generally people that do don't take 6 months to file paper work that takes a week, if you feel you don't have the time or your overwhelmed, hire someone to take care of it for you.

The building inspector probably thinks 6 months is reasonable given that the OP has to get a permit from the conservation authority. If the CA is anything like the ones I've dealt with here they will be a PITA to deal with. Their service standard is 30 days but my last permit took three months for something that should have taken less than a week.

"Note: Regulations under the Conservation Authorities Act are enforced. Developing, interfering with a wetland or altering a shoreline or watercourse without a permit may result in a fine and prosecution under the Conservation Authorities Act "

[Sylvestre]

To make better use of our space, we hired a company to build a new deck with 4 large levels made of Azek.

Fire that company immediately. They should have explained all this to you.

[Maymybonneliveforever]

OP has admitted that they have sat on this from time to time, as well the inspector can easily make a phone call should they be inclined and find out when and if the paper work has been filed. If the paper work has been filed and it did indeed take 6 months this thread would not have been started but it could indeed take at minimum another 3 months since the next still needs to be taken and lies in OP's hands.

The point I'm making is.............if an inspector wanted, with a couple simple phone calls they can easily find out that op is taking their time in dealing with this issue. You'd be amazed at how much clout a city inspector has should they feel the need. Whether you care or not, a city inspector can make or break or day, week, month………etc. Believe me when I say this as other contractors can attest.

[Little Tim]

So, let me get this straight. You have a lakefront property in Toronto. You built a 2,500 sq/ft 4-level deck. You frequently travel overseas. And, you're on RFD asking for advice??? Sorry, does not compute. :confused:

My best advice would be to dip into your Swiss bank account and find the funds to hire a proper company that has an architect and structural engineer on staff and knows how to negotiate the permit process. Alternatively, involve your family lawyer who you probably should have consulted before you came on this forum anyway.

[Maymybonneliveforever]

So, let me get this straight. You have a lakefront property in Toronto. You built a 2,5000 sq/ft 4-level deck. You frequently travel overseas. And, you're on RFD asking for advice??? Sorry, does not compute. :confused:I believe you may have one extra Zero in that sq. footage but who's counting.

Little Tim, just curious, have you ever read or heard of a book called, "The Millionare Next Door", if not ask about the context. I know a bit off topic, but it's actually a really good book to read.

[sacabeans]

Spend the money on the lawyer and get help moving along the process. You seem to have the means, but not the desire to have it resolved.

[Little Tim]

I believe you may have one extra Zero in that sq. footage but who's counting.

Little Tim, just curious, have you ever read or heard of a book called, "The Millionare Next Door", if not ask about the context. I know a bit off topic, but it's actually a really good book to read.

Oops, don't know how that extra zero snuck in there! :)

I've heard about that book, but never read it. In this case it looks like the OP could be a UAW who just splurged a lot of money on something that became a depreciating asset due to having failed to properly consider permit risks.

Anyway, I would love to hear why you brought up the book.

[GPS]

Thanks everyone for the kick in the ***** . I was taking it seriously until I took two separate days off work waiting at the permit office and finally got told they won't do anything without the Conservation Authority ok. Then I looked up what is involved in that ( A LOT ) and went away again. I am now back and ready to tackle this. I do not have a family lawyer. This is the first legal issue I've needed to deal with (outside of buying/selling and house) and I did not realize it had to go this far. My next door neighbour is taking it lightly and said they can't do much but fine or put a lien on the house, so I did not take it seriously enough until I read the article about that family's addition. Thanks for the links, that's actually what prompted me to post this thread now.

And Little Tim, I am not filthy rich, but I do well and I work hard for my money. I am not wasteful and just like anyone else out there, I do enjoy a good deal, so I have been on RFD for a number of years. I appreciate the help I've gotten here and I realize there is a diverse group on here from all backgrounds, which is why I wanted everyone's input.

I guess I will have to suck it up and start filing for the C.A. permit now.

[Maymybonneliveforever]

Anyway, I would love to hear why you brought up the book.PM was sent couple days ago.

My next door neighbour is taking it lightly and said they can't do much but fine or put a lien on the house, so I did not take it seriously enough Actually, possibly having a lien put on your house should be taken seriously.

[dirtmover]

My next door neighbour is taking it lightly and said they can't do much but fine or put a lien on the house, so I did not take it seriously enough until I read the article about that family's addition.

They'll only put a lien on your home if you owe them money e.g. unpaid fines or if they have to hire a contractor to remove your illegal deck and you refuse to pay. The family in the story built an addition that was larger than the regulations allowed. If everything had been legal and not broken any bylaws a permit could have been issued retroactively.

In your case as long as the deck has been built according to code and does not contravene any bylaws you shouldn't have a problem getting a permit issued retroactively. Don't expect them to just forget about this, however, it won't go away.

[GPS]

This is the OP here. So I got stuck at the Conservation Authority application and did not submit it in time. I now have a summons and a court date in April. At this point, I know it's not going to go away and I know I need professional help. Does anyone know of a very good lawyer that handles residential building permit cases?

[iwells]

Seriously....

I would think the construction company you used should help you out in getting a lawyer. Maybe ask the inspector(s) as well.

Anyway, I must of talked to soo many inspectors before we got our permit for our outdoor structure. Reason why, I didn't want any headache while or after it was built from any neighbours. They all complain but I have proper papers to back it up.

Good luck in finding a lawyer and at your court dates.