Virtual Box Questions!

[george__]

Well... I guess it was about time.
My Pentium D and Intel Pentium 4 systems are dying and I don't feel like spending any more money on them.

I am curious as to how big of a performance hit I'd take if I run Virtual Box to the server using my primary desktop.

The primary desktop specs are
Intel Core i7 - 2600K
8GB of Ram
Nvidia GTX 460
The hard drives are 5900 rpm drives and it'll be storing the virtual box image
I have a SSD which has the applications and the operating system

I use the primary desktop to play video games, some work stuff (playing around with GIMP/photoshop) etc.
The virtualbox would be running server 2008 and it'll be used as a VPN and file server (at max probably 8 people would be using it)... They would be streaming videos (~ average video size 4GB) or saving files. Size wise - word files, pictures, and music and video transfers.

Plan B is to build a budget system (~$400)
Input please!
Thanks

edit - downside of plan B is I need to pay money for a motherboard that has a lot of SATA ports or buy external SATA cards hmm

[gnuman]

Would they be streaming while you'll be playing games? 8GB would be cutting it a bit close in my opinion. I don't know how much resources Server 2008 takes but maybe I'd suggest upping your RAM to maybe 16GB. Graphics doesn't matter for virtualization and also make sure Intel VT-d is enabled in BIOS. I would have obviously VB installed on the SSD but the OS installed on the regular HDD.

[george__]

Yeah they would be streaming while I'm playing.

I think you're right about memory (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsserver/bb414778.aspx) <-- recommended is 2GB


xalex0 give me some ideas!!!

[Mark77]

Well... I guess it was about time.
My Pentium D and Intel Pentium 4 systems are dying and I don't feel like spending any more money on them.

I am curious as to how big of a performance hit I'd take if I run Virtual Box to the server using my primary desktop.

The primary desktop specs are
Intel Core i7 - 2600K
8GB of Ram
Nvidia GTX 460
The hard drives are 5900 rpm drives and it'll be storing the virtual box image
I have a SSD which has the applications and the operating system

I use the primary desktop to play video games, some work stuff (playing around with GIMP/photoshop) etc.
The virtualbox would be running server 2008 and it'll be used as a VPN and file server (at max probably 8 people would be using it)... They would be streaming videos (~ average video size 4GB) or saving files. Size wise - word files, pictures, and music and video transfers.

Plan B is to build a budget system (~$400)
Input please!
Thanks

edit - downside of plan B is I need to pay money for a motherboard that has a lot of SATA ports or buy external SATA cards hmm

My WinXP VM running on a nearly identical machine (i7-2600 ), with a 32-bit Linux host OS, and 16gb of RAM, has no problem dumping 25mb/sec out of the bridged Ethernet port. I think it could do more if I bothered to upgrade the base Linux system to the 64-bit kernel, but I have a few other issues preventing that.

But you really shouldn't plan on playing games on the same machine runs a server with Virtualbox. I just don't think you'll be happy cleaning up the mess if you get a crash in the hypervisor/host OS.

[Mark77]

BTW, no VT-d on the i7-2600k, but VT-d only matters if you need PCI passthrough. (ie: mapping a certain PCI card target into a specific VM).

Also, vt-d requires not only a supported CPU, but also a supported chipset and a motherboard that has the proper firmware to turn it all on.

[george__]

What can I build with about $400ish ?

[Mark77]

What can I build with about $400ish ?

i5-2500k (or the Ivy Bridge Part) -- $200
8gb RAM -- $40
H67 motherboard -- $70

For $90-ish, I'm sure you could shop around and find a case/PSU. Or just re-use the case/PSU from your P4/Pentium-D machines. Sandy/Ivy Bridge is incredibly energy efficient, so you probably wouldn't even need a new PSU in most cases. And the video is embedded so you don't have to spend on video.

Of course, even an i5-2500k is probably overkill just for the server you're proposing to build.

[gnuman]

If it's just for a file server why not just go with an A8 then it would save a lot of money and can easily stream?

[george__]

Thanks for the input RFD people!

[toalan]

If the users are streaming videos then I guess reliability does not really matter that much if you crash the system playing games.

I do not think you will run into any problems, the VM has it's own HDD, 2GB of ram is plenty for the guest OS. Maybe get another ethernet card and dedicate a port for the guest OS, more ram never hurts.

My biggest concern is that your rig sucks up alot of power and you must always leave it on, assuming the rig uses 150w on average, @ 11 cents per kwh, over a year it would cost close to $150 to power.

[george__]

If the users are streaming videos then I guess reliability does not really matter that much if you crash the system playing games.

I do not think you will run into any problems, the VM has it's own HDD, 2GB of ram is plenty for the guest OS. Maybe get another ethernet card and dedicate a port for the guest OS, more ram never hurts.

My biggest concern is that your rig sucks up alot of power and you must always leave it on, assuming the rig uses 150w on average, @ 11 cents per kwh, over a year it would cost close to $150 to power.

Yeah... But it'd be cheaper than running another system (i think)?

[Mark77]

If the users are streaming videos then I guess reliability does not really matter that much if you crash the system playing games.

Yeah but if the crash corrupts a VM, which tends to happen when a VM is improperly shut down, its a real hassle to get it running again. I've seen the filesystem corrupted so bad after a VM crash that the entire VM had to be restored from a backup.

Remember, when you use a virtualizer, you're adding an additional layer of complexity, an additional layer of caching, an additional layer between the hardware and the software.



My biggest concern is that your rig sucks up alot of power and you must always leave it on, assuming the rig uses 150w on average, @ 11 cents per kwh, over a year it would cost close to $150 to power.

A CPU + PSU + RAM does not use 150W, especially under those sorts of loads. Sandy Bridge CPU + PSU + RAM systems routinely clock in at 29W. Of course, more when HDDs are added, but those HDDs would be needed whether the OP runs 1 system or two.

[george__]

Yeah but if the crash corrupts a VM, which tends to happen when a VM is improperly shut down, its a real hassle to get it running again. I've seen the filesystem corrupted so bad after a VM crash that the entire VM had to be restored from a backup.

Remember, when you use a virtualizer, you're adding an additional layer of complexity, an additional layer of caching, an additional layer between the hardware and the software.




A CPU + PSU + RAM does not use 150W, especially under those sorts of loads. Sandy Bridge CPU + PSU + RAM systems routinely clock in at 29W. Of course, more when HDDs are added, but those HDDs would be needed whether the OP runs 1 system or two.

sounds like time to build new computers -_-"

[toalan]

Yeah but if the crash corrupts a VM, which tends to happen when a VM is improperly shut down, its a real hassle to get it running again. I've seen the filesystem corrupted so bad after a VM crash that the entire VM had to be restored from a backup.

Remember, when you use a virtualizer, you're adding an additional layer of complexity, an additional layer of caching, an additional layer between the hardware and the software.

A CPU + PSU + RAM does not use 150W, especially under those sorts of loads. Sandy Bridge CPU + PSU + RAM systems routinely clock in at 29W. Of course, more when HDDs are added, but those HDDs would be needed whether the OP runs 1 system or two.

The file system is a weak point for a vm machine since usually it is just 1 big file, if anything happens to that file you are screwed. However, you can have the virtual machine use the HDD directly and forgo having a single virtual disk file, while I have never used this feature it seems to me at first glance as robust as a normal non-vm file system.

I have been using a single virtual disk file off a usb drive for a few years, maybe once or twice a week it gets accidentally disconnected, I have been lucky to have never had the file get so corrupt that it becomes unusable. I backup my virtual machine twice a month in addition to backing up my work files once a week, and running a cloud service to mirror my work files to the cloud.

With a 460 his idle is going to be in the 125W to 150w range

[george__]

Seeems way to risky...
I got hold of a Core 2 Duo Dell with blown caps from a friend today for literally nothing and the CPU doesn't look funny... So I'm going to try and find a motherboard

[balance]

for just a storage server zfs or not duo core is enough

if you want an all in one machine get quad/vt-d/vt-x

for me ECC is a must for storage server, i3s have ECC but on intel page it doesn't state in its spec but its been confirm by other forums. For ECC your motherboard have to support it too.

for me personal i would go for low power consumption i3 2120T

[george__]

for just a storage server zfs or not duo core is enough

if you want an all in one machine get quad/vt-d/vt-x

for me ECC is a must for storage server, i3s have ECC but on intel page it doesn't state in its spec but its been confirm by other forums. For ECC your motherboard have to support it too.

for me personal i would go for low power consumption i3 2120T
Too much money >< . Also because I'm so poor I use truecrypt a lot so i3 = no go since no AES-NI instruction set :(...
Is ECC really necessary though for home environment??

edit: I think it's dead.

How decent is this build?

CPU: Intel i3-2120 (~$110) <-- Thinking about getting i5 due to AES-NI but comes at cost of $100 more ... Some of the hard drives are encrypted using True crypt instead of file containers... Performance gains??
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-B75M-D3H (~$74) ... Anyone know decent cheap board with e-sata built in? If not, I can just go buy USB 3 enclosures...
Ram: Kingston KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX 8GB Kit 2X4GB (~$40) or is 16GB worth it? <--- Not doing ZFS. Each drive is separate with NTFS.
PSU: CORSAIR Professional Series HX650 (~$120) <-- Overkill? OR CORSAIR Builder Series CX500 (~$62) The PSU just needs to power 4 hard drives, no external GPU. The H67 has onboard.

Total: $344+tax so JUST under $400. (This is with a lot of PM though, so no clue if this will work)

Thanks for any input!

[balance]

if you aren't doing zfs I don't think you need 16 gb. ZFS is very ram intensive

AES-NI does help but will it be noticeable :/ IDK

ZFS uses AES-NI when available

just go for the cheapest PSU and the size you need to fit into your case

<3 ZFS :D

[george__]

if you aren't doing zfs I don't think you need 16 gb. ZFS is very ram intensive

AES-NI does help but will it be noticeable :/ IDK

ZFS uses AES-NI when available

just go for the cheapest PSU and the size you need to fit into your case

<3 ZFS :D
HMMM... I might go with the i5 then.
I'm also going with the Gigabyte.. Finding a e-sata port built into the board with this chipset seems highly unlikely. Time to adopt USB 3 :D
Thanks!

[balance]

HMMM... I might go with the i5 then.
I'm also going with the Gigabyte.. Finding a e-sata port built into the board with this chipset seems highly unlikely. Time to adopt USB 3 :D
Thanks!

well with AHCI turn on, you can use an esata bracket (takes up one pci slot if that matters in your case) and just plug it into your internal sata. you can hotswap/eject drive

H77 usually is 2 sata3 and 4 sata2

if you need itx format asus has they P8H77-I

gl

[george__]

well with AHCI turn on, you can use an esata bracket (takes up one pci slot if that matters in your case) and just plug it into your internal sata. you can hotswap/eject drive

H77 usually is 2 sata3 and 4 sata2

if you need itx format asus has they P8H77-I

gl

That's why I want built in. I need all the SATA ports for my hard drives and not go out and buy sata card. But doesn't look like it's possible. I guess e-sata is considered "premium"?

[balance]

why you need esata? gigabyte Ethernet not good enough :P

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/Ba-Ka/DSC_0777.jpg
my WIP Build still waiting for my mini SAS 8087 cables

10 3.25 drives + 2 ssd in there hidden lol in a mini itx :D

took most of the drives out of the samsung g3/m3

[george__]

why you need esata? gigabyte Ethernet not good enough :P

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/Ba-Ka/DSC_0777.jpg
my WIP Build still waiting for my mini SAS 8087 cables

10 3.25 drives + 2 ssd in there hidden lol in a mini itx :D

took most of the drives out of the samsung g3/m3


It's for my external enclosure... I have weird backup habit I guess? But I use e-sata to take exact clones of all my drives weekly and these drives go to work with me. Backing up through gigabyte lan hasn't done well for me :(
Aren't you scared of overheading?
I'm using BitFenix Shinobi XL cases

edit: Your using Samsung G3 hard drives, I see due to the A800 number. LMFAO, I am doing the same thing. Bought so many from newegg. I got a few that says A799 though :S
Also decided to just go with I3, I doubt performance hit will be that bad / noticeable

[balance]

really when I was just writing to one drive over ethernet I get like 40-55mb/s :/ i think that's pretty fast

[george__]

really when I was just writing to one drive over ethernet I get like 40-55mb/s :/ i think that's pretty fast

E-sata I can get almost double,

[george__]

So for those wanting the "conclusion." Here it is...
I'm buying
CPU: Intel i3-2120
Mobo: ASUS P8B75-M
Ram:Kingston KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX 8GB Kit 2X4GB (~$40)
PSU: CORSAIR Builder Series CX500 (~$62)

And when I can get some more money, likely 2 or 3 USB 3.0 enclosures

@Balance, how are you using those Samsung drives?
They are crippled with some features missing. Are you actually using them for zFS?
The NCQ and AAM features are disabled

edit: motherboard is going to be ASRock H77 Pro4-M so I can use e-sata bracket :0

[balance]

ya that's the plan, zfs :/

B75 chipset never heard of it XD I love under a rock

for reliability/stable builds I would go kingston/samsung (hard to get samsung ram here)

edit

most of them are A800 only got one that is A799, the A799 looks very similar to my old hd204UI, probably due to the same production time

on the bottom the A799 centre of the disk is copper/goldish while the A800 is silverish

case front has 140mm, top has 120mm and psu is 120mm, ventilation should be ok

[george__]

ya that's the plan, zfs :/

B75 chipset never heard of it XD I love under a rock

for reliability/stable builds I would go kingston/samsung (hard to get samsung ram here)

edit

most of them are A800 only got one that is A799, the A799 looks very similar to my old hd204UI, probably due to the same production time

on the bottom the A799 centre of the disk is copper/goldish while the A800 is silverish

case front has 140mm, top has 120mm and psu is 120mm, ventilation should be ok

I like how it is so tiny. My BitFenix cases are hhhuggee and heavy .

[balance]

I like how it is so tiny. My BitFenix cases are hhhuggee and heavy .

with 10 hard drive it's pretty heavy =(

BitFenix case are pretty nice and have good layout

I like how BitFenix have like solid lines and sides, I don't need no fancy stuff :D

my future gaming pc will be either a BitFenix prodigy or silverstone ft-03 mini :D

[george__]

with 10 hard drive it's pretty heavy =(

BitFenix case are pretty nice and have good layout

I like how BitFenix have like solid lines and sides, I don't need no fancy stuff :D

my future gaming pc will be either a BitFenix prodigy or silverstone ft-03 mini :D

I wish the I3 was cheaper -_-". Should I get 16GB or 8GB...?

[balance]

whats your ram usage usually for virtual box? if you can afford it or its a good deal get more ram.

just a fyi, ivy bridge i3 should be coming end of this month or beginning of August

i3 2120 (http://www.hookbag.ca/product/H3C06KSV9/) vs 2120T (http://www.hookbag.ca/product/H3C06MNHS/) price very similar you get bit slower clock speed but 35 watts :D, I personally would get 2120T

[george__]

whats your ram usage usually for virtual box? if you can afford it or its a good deal get more ram.

just a fyi, ivy bridge i3 should be coming end of this month or beginning of August

i3 2120 (http://www.hookbag.ca/product/H3C06KSV9/) vs 2120T (http://www.hookbag.ca/product/H3C06MNHS/) price very similar you get bit slower clock speed but 35 watts :D, I personally would get 2120T

I'm moving to i5, I think AES-NI worth it . But thanks for the new info!!

Now I just need to find time to build everything! ><

[Mark77]

whats your ram usage usually for virtual box? if you can afford it or its a good deal get more ram.

just a fyi, ivy bridge i3 should be coming end of this month or beginning of August

i3 2120 (http://www.hookbag.ca/product/H3C06KSV9/) vs 2120T (http://www.hookbag.ca/product/H3C06MNHS/) price very similar you get bit slower clock speed but 35 watts :D, I personally would get 2120T

Those de-rated chips, unless you're using them in a power dissipation sensitive function, are a complete waste of money. They don't consume any less power on equal loads, but they will reduce the maximum performance.

They're designed primarily for machines that will have very limited cooling (ie: iMacs), or for server racks that are run so close to the edge where using extra power means the breakers get tripped.

[george__]

Those de-rated chips, unless you're using them in a power dissipation sensitive function, are a complete waste of money. They don't consume any less power on equal loads, but they will reduce the maximum performance.

They're designed primarily for machines that will have very limited cooling (ie: iMacs), or for server racks that are run so close to the edge where using extra power means the breakers get tripped.

I'm itching towards a I5. I feel guilty for buying it though seeing as how I own a i7 :( stupid meee

[Mark77]

I'm itching towards a I5. I feel guilty for buying it though seeing as how I own a i7 :( stupid meee

Yeah I know the feeling -- have an i7 in the Linux box, and the only time that thing gets loaded 100% is when I do kernel compiles. Still, being able to push out a kernel in <2 minutes is pretty awesome!