Toronto: Subway Possibility in Scarborough

[wilsonlam97]

I heard the plan to put in a subway is back to be discussed.

[mysticalinfluence]

Political thread, in before the lock.

[Fantaz]

I hope they put a subway tunnel near Scarborough NCIX. Takes so long to get to from DT.

[UrbanPoet]

I hope they never build subways and use more cost effective solutions e.g. Light rail transit.

[manmanny]

I heard the plan to put in a subway is back to be discussed.


Also,

Why do we have councillors? They're communists that have more power than our mayor since they operate in unison. We'll never have a subway with Minnan-wong telling the other councillors to vote for streetcars.

Heard this where? On Radio or read in Star?

[NorthYorker]

IBTL


Why do we have councillors?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

[UrbanPoet]

MAybe not never... If it is financiall feasible then yes. But for now, I see LRT as a more realistic option.

[Hitman21]

IBTL, Why would you create this thread as much as people love to discuss politics this will be locked

[wilsonlam97]

IBTL, Why would you create this thread as much as people love to discuss politics this will be locked

Good point. OP edited.

[EPcjay]

IS it the portion from kennedy to STC? Cause really, that doesn't take much more to implement considering they have partial funding for it already.

[alkaseltzer01]

I hope they expand the $5 footlong deals.

[vero95]

I hope they never build subways and use more cost effective solutions e.g. Light rail transit.

but we are not getting LRTs. we are getting streetcars
LRTs in NA operate at average speeds above 30kmh (usually ca 35kmh)
those in Toronto will operate at 22kmh, closer to a streetcar

[geokilla]

YES! Subways fighting!

[vero95]

Political thread, in before the lock.

how is that different from "how responisve is your MP" thread?

[Squiggles]

Teleportation will be the preferred method of travel by the time any of these "plans" come to fruition.

[NorthYorker]

teleportation will be the preferred method of travel by the time any of these "plans" come to fruition.:)
+1000

[EPcjay]

Bump, yet again another subway debate
http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1316671--ttc-report-threatens-to-reopen-scarborough-subway-debate

Original TTC Report:
http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2013/January_21/Supplementary_Reports/Response_to_Commissi.pdf


http://images.moneyville.ca/images/f5/b6/f4815d26479eb738bbab28a963f1.jpg


By going with the subway, it appears centennial college would be affected by this change greatly.

[vero95]

I do not get what they mean by slightly faster. the distance is 7.6km vs 9.9km and the number of stops is 3 vs 7. add higher speeds and no interference with the traffic and what they say is it's just going to be slightly faster? :-0 :confused:
if they claim a subway makes more sense in scarborough now, why did they vote for the streetcar and what do they think about the eglinton line whose big part is buried anyway? :facepalm:

[chemical_echo]

Interference with traffic?
The RT doesn't cross any traffic right now, and I'm fairly certain it won't when it's converted to LRT.

[EPcjay]

They may not realize it, but by building it as a subway, it will reduce usage on the yonge line. A lot of people boarding Steeles, Finch, sheppard and Ellesmere east of midland will change patterns and hop on the subway at Sheppard East / Scarborough Centre. The RT transfer really makes a lot more effort. LRT would be no different compared to the RT

[trst]

what's wrong with the current scarb rt?

[vero95]

They may not realize it, but by building it as a subway, it will reduce usage on the yonge line. A lot of people boarding Steeles, Finch, sheppard and Ellesmere east of midland will change patterns and hop on the subway at Sheppard East / Scarborough Centre. The RT transfer really makes a lot more effort. LRT would be no different compared to the RT

the future of this city has been shaped by the ignorants

[isajoo]

I hope they expand the $5 footlong deals.

That's what I thought this thread was about.
LOL

[Kaiu]

Scarborough needs subways! GTA needs a unified transit system at the same time! We need some high speed options too T.T

Delaying just makes the currently unaffordable price tag even more impossible in the future T.T $9 billion today, $30 billion the next year, $100 billion in a few more years...

[kiasu]

a good example to take reference is transit in Chicago..both Chicago and Toronto have the similarity in population and demographics. I do not understand why Chicago is able to have such a well plan transportation infrastruture where Toronto always have an excuse of no $$$? That women Karen XXX should be fired and why no body dare to kick her out including Mr Ford? Google the transport system of Chicago and compare to Toronto...shame on all of us. TO can have the same loop system in downtown core and addition 3 or 4 lines coming from North to downtown.

[BornRuff]

a good example to take reference is transit in Chicago..both Chicago and Toronto have the similarity in population and demographics. I do not understand why Chicago is able to have such a well plan transportation infrastruture where Toronto always have an excuse of no $$$? That women Karen XXX should be fired and why no body dare to kick her out including Mr Ford? Google the transport system of Chicago and compare to Toronto...shame on all of us. TO can have the same loop system in downtown core and addition 3 or 4 lines coming from North to downtown.

Well, like it or not, money is a pretty major barrier to building transit.

Rob Ford would have booted Stintz, but he doesn't have the power to do so. Council decided that they trusted her more than anyone else that Ford put forward.

The fact is, she is a lot more focused on reasoned, evidenced based transit development than Rob Ford ever has been. Everyone with a head on their shoulders has been sharply critical of Fords transit nonsense. Even the auditor general, someone who you would think Ford would always be on side with, was critical of McGuinty for almost allowing Ford's plan to go forward.

[RolandCouch]

a good example to take reference is transit in Chicago..both Chicago and Toronto have the similarity in population and demographics. I do not understand why Chicago is able to have such a well plan transportation infrastruture where Toronto always have an excuse of no $$$? That women Karen XXX should be fired and why no body dare to kick her out including Mr Ford? Google the transport system of Chicago and compare to Toronto...shame on all of us. TO can have the same loop system in downtown core and addition 3 or 4 lines coming from North to downtown.

I gotta say I recently traveled to Chicago and I was very impressed. Land at the airport - hop on the subway and in the downtown core footsteps from my hotel in 45 mins. Want to go downtown somewhere but not walk? Hop on the subway and you're there. Want to head north to watch the cubs? Hop on the subway and you're there in no time (though it was insane trying to get on after the game). For the most part, they have a pretty good system there and I think the price to ride was about the same as Toronto.

I also thought the San Fran BART system was very good too (especially considering how far you can travel) but the prices were a bit high.

[vero95]

Well, like it or not, money is a pretty major barrier to building transit.

Rob Ford would have booted Stintz, but he doesn't have the power to do so. Council decided that they trusted her more than anyone else that Ford put forward.

The fact is, she is a lot more focused on reasoned, evidenced based transit development than Rob Ford ever has been. Everyone with a head on their shoulders has been sharply critical of Fords transit nonsense. Even the auditor general, someone who you would think Ford would always be on side with, was critical of McGuinty for almost allowing Ford's plan to go forward.

she is so focused in transit development that first she voted for streetcars and against subways then she teamed up with de baeremaeker to go with the subways :facepalm:
she is as ignorant as the rest of the crowd around her


Transit plan: Dramatic OneCity proposal floated by Stintz, DeBaeremaeker
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/1217721--transit-plan-dramatic-onecity-proposal-floated-by-stintz-debaeremaeker

[DJ_Peanuts22]

a good example to take reference is transit in Chicago..both Chicago and Toronto have the similarity in population and demographics. I do not understand why Chicago is able to have such a well plan transportation infrastruture where Toronto always have an excuse of no $$$? That women Karen XXX should be fired and why no body dare to kick her out including Mr Ford? Google the transport system of Chicago and compare to Toronto...shame on all of us. TO can have the same loop system in downtown core and addition 3 or 4 lines coming from North to downtown.

agreed 1000%

[BornRuff]

she is so focused in transit development that first she voted for streetcars and against subways then she teamed up with de baeremaeker to go with the subways :facepalm:
she is as ignorant as the rest of the crowd around her


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/1217721--transit-plan-dramatic-onecity-proposal-floated-by-stintz-debaeremaeker

Lol, do you still think that anyone is against subways? People are against the specific plan that Rob Ford was proposing.

Everyone knows that subways are great when implemented properly. Fords plan made no sense.

[1337rice]

HA!
They were talking about extending the subway from Finch to Richmond Hill Centre. But that's all just talk and no go, just like how this one will be.
They'll probably start in 2030...just like how it takes them a whopping 2-3 years to implement the presto card system to their failing transportation

[tsehou]

Quick summary of the details.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2qknlgz.jpg

From Page 16 of the TTC Report.

http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2013/January_21/Supplementary_Reports/Response_to_Commissi.pdf

[xlc_88]

HA!
They were talking about extending the subway from Finch to Richmond Hill Centre. But that's all just talk and no go, just like how this one will be.
They'll probably start in 2030...just like how it takes them a whopping 2-3 years to implement the presto card system to their failing transportation

That's still happening though. The subway for Downsview to Vaughan is still happening.

I think before we focus on extending the Scarborough RT, we should focus our efforts on finishing the Sheppard East LRT. Construction started around Agincourt GO station and is still not complete.

[EPcjay]

That's still happening though. The subway for Downsview to Vaughan is still happening.

I think before we focus on extending the Scarborough RT, we should focus our efforts on finishing the Sheppard East LRT. Construction started around Agincourt GO station and is still not complete.

The road itself is complete. Both sides have both lanes going. Only thing left is landscape

[LNahid2000]

a good example to take reference is transit in Chicago..both Chicago and Toronto have the similarity in population and demographics. I do not understand why Chicago is able to have such a well plan transportation infrastruture where Toronto always have an excuse of no $$$? That women Karen XXX should be fired and why no body dare to kick her out including Mr Ford? Google the transport system of Chicago and compare to Toronto...shame on all of us. TO can have the same loop system in downtown core and addition 3 or 4 lines coming from North to downtown.
Because Chicago started building rapid transit in 1892. Also, much of their rapid transit is elevated or at grade which is far cheaper. Meanwhile the TTC insists on digging tunnels through fields in Vaughan.

[ryanzahreddine]

I dream of an nyc style subway system in tdot. like to mississauga and brampton and rexdale and scarborough. through out the GTA subway system. Theres enough people in the GTA cities and areas of planning for all cities to have a unified subway system. GTA TRANSIT 2050! (lol)

ps. Presto transit style pay system is 15 year old European technology.

[vero95]

Lol, do you still think that anyone is against subways? People are against the specific plan that Rob Ford was proposing.

Everyone knows that subways are great when implemented properly. Fords plan made no sense.

After I proved to you that she voted against subways anywhere and then changed her mind when it was too late do you still believe she knows what she is doing :facepalm:
It's because of people like you and her this city is in such mess. Incompetence and ignorance

[boblobob]

Because Chicago started building rapid transit in 1892. Also, much of their rapid transit is elevated or at grade which is far cheaper. Meanwhile the TTC insists on digging tunnels through fields in Vaughan.

Don't forget Chicago gets federal and state money for transportation. Toronto has to rely almost exclusively on its property tax revenue and ttc fares.

[ddp]

Don't forget Chicago gets federal and state money for transportation. Toronto has to rely almost exclusively on its property tax revenue and ttc fares.

The province does pay a big portion of captial expendatures. None of this future expansion/new street cars would happen with out provincial money.

[BornRuff]

After I proved to you that she voted against subways anywhere and then changed her mind when it was too late do you still believe she knows what she is doing :facepalm:
It's because of people like you and her this city is in such mess. Incompetence and ignorance

She voted against a plan that didn't make sense. You will never be able to find one quote where Stintz or anyone else says they hate subways in general. It is just the stupid narrative that Rob Ford pushed, apparently in an effort to make sure nothing ever got built.

[BornRuff]

The province does pay a big portion of captial expendatures. None of this future expansion/new street cars would happen with out provincial money.

That is all special one time funding. They have to politic and bicker for years before getting their hands on any of that, and as you can see, that has not been conducive to actually getting anything done.

Most other north american transit systems have substantial ongoing support from state/province and federal sources. This makes planning and executing projects much more simple.

[vero95]

She voted against a plan that didn't make sense. You will never be able to find one quote where Stintz or anyone else says they hate subways in general. It is just the stupid narrative that Rob Ford pushed, apparently in an effort to make sure nothing ever got built.

She did not vote against the plan. She voted for the streetcars. You talk out of your a$$



There will be no more votes about LRTs versus subways, TTC chair Karen Stintz has promised.

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/425837/lrt-coming-to-toronto-and-thats-final/


Councillors sided with TTC chair Karen Stintz, voting 25-18, to develop light rail lines introduced by former Toronto mayor David Miller in 2007.

"Ford said Stintz’s plan would put more tracks on the roads, create traffic chaos and result in years of needless, messy and inconvenient construction," CTV.ca reported.

Stintz’s plan called for the implementation of three LRT lines from the Transit City proposal on Eglinton Avenue, Finch Avenue, and a conversion of the Scarborough RT.



http://www.thedailyplanet.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7947:stintz-beats-ford-in-ttc-transit-city-vote&catid=41:rotator-news

[Ilovejaneandfinch]

I hope they never build subways and use more cost effective solutions e.g. Light rail transit.

I agree, but only if it is not the ones that are mixed with traffic, be the stories that I have been hearing about that are mixed. We need like scarborough RT. Which is neither a subway nor is mixed with transit. In fact, unlike the subway, I have never seen the RT go slow! You know howmany times I have seen the regular subway on all lines go slow? practically every single day!

[vero95]

Here is a good article about how focused stintz is


When Eglinton is torn up and delays begin on the new LRT line — because the TTC never gets anything done on time or budget — it will all fall on Ms. Shameless Backstabber’s back, er, head.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/04/levy-ms-ttc-turncoat

[BornRuff]

She did not vote against the plan. She voted for the streetcars. You talk out of your a$$


http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/425837/lrt-coming-to-toronto-and-thats-final/

http://www.thedailyplanet.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7947:stintz-beats-ford-in-ttc-transit-city-vote&catid=41:rotator-news

There was no "streetcars vs subways" vote. There were votes on specific projects.

[vero95]

There was no "streetcars vs subways" vote. There were votes on specific projects.

and she voted for the project with streetcars :facepalm:
She even said there will be no more discussion about subways. Did you read my post when she said so?

[BornRuff]

and she voted for the project with streetcars :facepalm:
She even said there will be no more discussion about subways. Did you read my post when she said so?

Rob Ford commandeered a TTC BUS to pick up his football team, not a subway train, so clearly he is anti subway too, right?

Where did she say there would be no more discussion about subways. I am pretty sure she is a proponent of the downtown relief line. She did say she didn't want any of the meaningless "people want subways" motions that Ford kept proposing.

[vero95]

Rob Ford commandeered a TTC BUS to pick up his football team, not a subway train, so clearly he is anti subway too, right?

Where did she say there would be no more discussion about subways. I am pretty sure she is a proponent of the downtown relief line. She did say she didn't want any of the meaningless "people want subways" motions that Ford kept proposing.



TTC chair Karen Stintz plans to present a petition to the city clerk on Monday morning asking for a special council meeting on Wednesday. The petition is signed by 24 councillors, which constitutes a majority which in turn requires the clerk to schedule a meeting. Under city bylaws that meeting must be held within 48 hours.

Councillors at the special meeting will be asked to confirm a 2009 memorandum of agreement (MOA) for a light rail plan forged during former mayor David Miller’s administration. It is signed by the city, TTC and Metrolinx and runs out March 31.

That agreement calls for LRTs on Eglinton, Sheppard East and Finch West, and effectively scuttles Ford’s vision of tunneling thYe Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT east of Laird Dr. to Kennedy station.

Ford wasn’t planning to bring his transit plan before council until April.

If the old light rail plan is confirmed by council, it appears to close the door to an earlier compromise Stintz tried to broker — one that would have allowed the mayor to save face by extending the Sheppard subway east at least one stop.

“Absent a compromise, I think council needs to consider what is the best way to spend the resources we have to benefit the most people,” said Stintz on Sunday.

“The purpose of the meeting is not to debate the (2009) MOA. The purpose of the meeting is to respond to (Metrolinx chair Rob) Prichard’s letter,” she said.

Last week Prichard sent Ford and Stintz a letter asking the city to affirm its preferred transit plans for the $8.4 billion the province has committed to Toronto. The letter came the same day Ford allies on the TTC board voted against allowing the TTC to release a report later this month outlining the pros and cons of burying the Eglinton LRT east of Laird to Kennedy — the very plan that Ford insisted go forward even though it would cost about $2 billion more than the plan outlined in the MOA.

A report from Ford’s point man on the Sheppard subway, leaked to the media last week, proves the mayor doesn’t have a plan, she said.

“We have now the benefit of Gordon Chong’s report that still doesn’t talk about how a subway will be financed. Councillors have more information now to make a decision,” said Stintz.

If council decides to return to the plan outlined in the MOA, it will no longer be called Transit City, a title that has come to be linked with Miller’s administration.





http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/1126652--ttc-chair-karen-stintz-moves-to-bury-mayor-rob-ford-s-subway

Stop sidetracking :facepalm:
She fought and voted for streetcars to restore transit city (see above)
After subways were scraped thanks to her and others she was saying there will be no more subway debate (see my previous post)
Then she came up with one city plan :facepalm:
She is an immature incompetent leader who was raised to the position by Ford and then backstabbed him with the full support for streetcars only to realize later that it was a stupid idea

[spike1128]

The mayor will drop dead before he has subways in his home turf. He doesn't care about public transit, it is for poor people.

Scarborough has the poorest population compare to other suburbs of the GTA, yes build it. But they need to increase property taxes in Scarborough. The rest of the Toronto shouldn't need to subsidize public transits if it's not built there.

[Sandman]

Quick summary of the details.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2qknlgz.jpg

From Page 16 of the TTC Report.

http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2013/January_21/Supplementary_Reports/Response_to_Commissi.pdf


Imagine No transfer to RT, subway all the way to STC plus no shuttle bus during 4 to 5 construction years, much faster (no climbing 3 floors up @ Kennedy and 2 flrs down @ STC, especiallt Winter time) and so on. Just look @ Page 14 diagram. What a dream ! Subway all the way !!

[thestar99]

I definitely think we need to connect Sheppard Line to Scarborough. Too many people take 116 86 and finch bus during rush hour its ridiculous.

If not feasible then I am ok with light rail if they extend it couple more stops. Make sure the communities who need ti most have access to it

Toronto should fight more with federal and provincial government to get more help in terms of funding.

Toronto also need to implement a new tax on junk food, increase tax on cigarettes alcohol consumption. Plus put tolls for the 905ers who is coming to Toronto and using our facilites

[BornRuff]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/1126652--ttc-chair-karen-stintz-moves-to-bury-mayor-rob-ford-s-subway

Stop sidetracking :facepalm:
She fought and voted for streetcars to restore transit city (see above)
After subways were scraped thanks to her and others she was saying there will be no more subway debate (see my previous post)
Then she came up with one city plan :facepalm:
She is an immature incompetent leader who was raised to the position by Ford and then backstabbed him with the full support for streetcars only to realize later that it was a stupid idea

Where exactly do you see Stintz saying that she didn't want subways in Toronto?

Nobody is against subways, but anyone with a brain knows that they are not appropriate just anywhere. For the areas in question in that article you posted, LRT is the clear choice.

[vero95]

Where exactly do you see Stintz saying that she didn't want subways in Toronto?

Nobody is against subways, but anyone with a brain knows that they are not appropriate just anywhere. For the areas in question in that article you posted, LRT is the clear choice.

It's pathetic :facepalm: I just showed you that she voted for transit city. There were no subways in transit city. She wanted streetcars everywhere. Then she changed her mind
Will you come up with some evidence that she voted for subways or you think that you create facts by posting here :facepalm:
How long will you troll like that? LOL

Here, dude. I post it again. Will you stop you trolling now that she knows what she wants and is more "focused"? It's really dumb to continue your trolling, no?



LRT coming to Toronto – and that’s final

There will be no more votes about LRTs versus subways, TTC chair Karen Stintz has promised.



http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/425837/lrt-coming-to-toronto-and-thats-final/

[BornRuff]

It's pathetic :facepalm: I just showed you that she voted for transit city. There were no subways in transit city. She wanted streetcars everywhere. Then she changed her mind
Will you come up with some evidence that she voted for subways or you think that you create facts by posting here :facepalm:
How long will you troll like that? LOL

Here, dude. I post it again. Will you stop you trolling now that she knows what she wants and is more "focused"? It's really dumb to continue your trolling, no?


http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/425837/lrt-coming-to-toronto-and-thats-final/

Have you ever been tested to see if you are brain dead? Voting for specific projects doesn't mean she is against subways, which is clearly demonstrated by her support for Subways in other more logical places.

[vero95]

Have you ever been tested to see if you are brain dead? Voting for specific projects doesn't mean she is against subways, which is clearly demonstrated by her support for Subways in other more logical places.

... like people who voted for Obama were not against Romney :facepalm:
grow up, dude, and stop spreading your diarrhea :facepalm:

[BornRuff]

... like people who voted for Obama were not against Romney :facepalm:
grow up, dude, and stop spreading your diarrhea :facepalm:

Lol, not quite. While there is only one president of the United States, a public transit system is made up of many different transit lines. Choosing one mode of transportation for one line in no way means you wont utilize something else for another.

Is the fact that almost every major transit system in the world utilizes numerous modes of transportation not evidence enough of this?

It is completely logical that my house is served by a bus, while Yonge Street is served by a subway, and Queen street is served by streetcars. Different areas have different transit needs.

If you want subways so much, why on earth would you attack someone who is proposing them?

[king_george]

And here we go again. Another transit thread that's going to get locked because Vero joined in.

BR put the dude on ignore and have conversations with adults who have a modicum of sanity and critical thinking skills. You'll feel much better for it believe me. :lol:

[vero95]

Lol, not quite. While there is only one president of the United States, a public transit system is made up of many different transit lines. Choosing one mode of transportation for one line in no way means you wont utilize something else for another.

Is the fact that almost every major transit system in the world utilizes numerous modes of transportation not evidence enough of this?

It is completely logical that my house is served by a bus, while Yonge Street is served by a subway, and Queen street is served by streetcars. Different areas have different transit needs.

If you want subways so much, why on earth would you attack someone who is proposing them?

there is only one eglinton line, one finch west and one SRT and she pushed to build streetcars there and voted for it. and now you are saying she is proposing subways because she is so focused on her job? LOL that's so dumb


TTC Chair Karen Stintz has submitted a petition with 24 signatures on it calling for a special meeting to resurrect part of the light rail plan known as Transit City, even as one Ford ally denounced her efforts as a “coup.”

The transit rebellion defies the wishes of Mayor Rob Ford, who has been adamantly promoting underground transit expansion, in particular building a subway on Sheppard. On Wednesday, Ms. Stintz will ask council to reaffirm its support of building four predominantly surface light rail lines along Sheppard, Finch, Eglinton avenues and a revamped Scarborough RT.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/06/karen-stintzs-transit-city-petition-called-a-coup-by-mammoliti/



Toronto city council voted in favour of a light rail transit plan Wednesday evening, throwing under the bus Mayor Rob Ford's plan to focus on moving more transit underground.

After almost 10 hours of heated debate and three final votes councillors voted 25 to 18 in favour of TTC chair Karen Stintz's plan.

Stintz had called for the special meeting earlier in the week to determine the direction of Toronto's transit system with the intention of reaffirming Transit City – a light rail-based plan shunned by Rob Ford when he was elected mayor in 2010. At stake is some $8 billion in money allocated by the province.



http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/city-council-supports-stintz-s-transit-plan-1.765153

[vero95]

And here we go again. Another transit thread that's going to get locked because Vero joined in.

BR put the dude on ignore and have conversations with adults who have a modicum of sanity and critical thinking skills. You'll feel much better for it believe me. :lol:

ignore facts, ignore people and you will feel better :facepalm:

[BornRuff]

And here we go again. Another transit thread that's going to get locked because Vero joined in.

BR put the dude on ignore and have conversations with adults who have a modicum of sanity and critical thinking skills. You'll feel much better for it believe me. :lol:

I really hope he is trolling. It would be pretty scary otherwise.

[BornRuff]

I definitely think we need to connect Sheppard Line to Scarborough. Too many people take 116 86 and finch bus during rush hour its ridiculous.

If not feasible then I am ok with light rail if they extend it couple more stops. Make sure the communities who need ti most have access to it

Toronto should fight more with federal and provincial government to get more help in terms of funding.

Toronto also need to implement a new tax on junk food, increase tax on cigarettes alcohol consumption. Plus put tolls for the 905ers who is coming to Toronto and using our facilites

The plan currently in place is the only one that provides any relief to those on the incredibly busy Finch West buses. If we were to go with a subway only plan, I don't think they would get any improvement in the next 100 years.

Connecting the Sheppard line to STC certainly wouldn't be useless, but we really need the down town relief line more.

[king_george]

I really hope he is trolling. It would be pretty scary otherwise.

The dude only exists in quoted form for me. Reduces the clutter of non-existent logic and thinking skills.

The logical fallacies employed by the troll is far too long to list, but he refuses to give up and at least acknowledge other peoples points. Plus I think the overuse of facepalm smilies should be an infractionable offense.

I for one hope they get the DRL done quickly. I don't use subways very much but others at work hate the sardine-can like confines of the current subway.

Int he meantime, it's time for my nightly fragging of Serious Sam 3 aliens :lol:

[BornRuff]

The dude only exists in quoted form for me. Reduces the clutter of non-existent logic and thinking skills.

The logical fallacies employed by the troll is far too long to list, but he refuses to give up and at least acknowledge other peoples points. Plus I think the overuse of facepalm smilies should be an infractionable offense.

I for one hope they get the DRL done quickly. I don't use subways very much but others at work hate the sardine-can like confines of the current subway.

Int he meantime, it's time for my nightly fragging of Serious Sam 3 aliens :lol:

It would really be great to make public transit a bit more dignified. Having to actually be pressed up against other people to get onto a subway in the morning rush hour doesn't make me feel great about my life choices.

[vero95]

I really hope he is trolling. It would be pretty scary otherwise.

if I were trolling I would not be able to back up everything I say with quotes and facts, no? :facepalm:
what do you understand by trolling if you think you are not trolling and I am?

[vero95]

The plan currently in place is the only one that provides any relief to those on the incredibly busy Finch West buses. If we were to go with a subway only plan, I don't think they would get any improvement in the next 100 years.

Connecting the Sheppard line to STC certainly wouldn't be useless, but we really need the down town relief line more.

who are we? you and your beer buddy? LOL
it sounds like you create facts on this forum by posting your opinions LOL

[vero95]

The dude only exists in quoted form for me. Reduces the clutter of non-existent logic and thinking skills.

The logical fallacies employed by the troll is far too long to list, but he refuses to give up and at least acknowledge other peoples points. Plus I think the overuse of facepalm smilies should be an infractionable offense.

I for one hope they get the DRL done quickly. I don't use subways very much but others at work hate the sardine-can like confines of the current subway.

Int he meantime, it's time for my nightly fragging of Serious Sam 3 aliens :lol:

you already ridiculed yourself with your "theory" that presto cards and tapping are needed to collect stats even though your are incompetent when it comes to stats and data collection LOL
do you think it's time to say something stupid again? :facepalm:

[BornRuff]

who are we? you and your beer buddy? LOL
it sounds like you create facts on this forum by posting your opinions LOL

Some reading for you if you feel like it.

http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TTC/DRTES_Final_Report_-_September_2012.pdf

[olek86]

Imagine No transfer to RT, subway all the way to STC plus no shuttle bus during 4 to 5 construction years, much faster (no climbing 3 floors up @ Kennedy and 2 flrs down @ STC, especiallt Winter time) and so on. Just look @ Page 14 diagram. What a dream ! Subway all the way !!

The TTC is in famous for going over budget on construction projects, so these numbers must be taken with grain of salt when evaluating the true costs of these projects, the problem with all these projects and what has happen under the Ford Administration is that he has not come out with a firm project for building more subways, those discussions with the private sector seem to only happen behind close doors with no pointed proposals, so people are weary of the subway agenda being pushed by some in city council.

[BornRuff]

The TTC is in famous for going over budget on construction projects, so these numbers must be taken with grain of salt when evaluating the true costs of these projects, the problem with all these projects and what has happen under the Ford Administration is that he has not come out with a firm project for building more subways, those discussions with the private sector seem to only happen behind close doors with no pointed proposals, so people are weary of the subway agenda being pushed by some in city council.

The idea that the private sector is going to pay for subways was just a sideshow.

The private sector doesn't dole out free money. They might finance subways, but we would still need to find a way to pay for the subways eventually, plus the cost of the financing.

[vero95]

Some reading for you if you feel like it.

http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/About_the_TTC/DRTES_Final_Report_-_September_2012.pdf

and here is how stintz voted in 2009



l. Metrolinx be requested to prioritize the Downtown Relief Line within its 15-year plan, noting that Transit City is the first priority for the Toronto Transit Commission and the City of Toronto; and

The clause above was inserted via an amendment from then Commissioner Suzan Hall which itself amended text proposed by Councillor Michael Thompson. This carried 32:11 with the recorded vote as follows:

In favour: Ainslie, Ashton, Augimeri, Bussin, Carroll, Cho, Davis, De Baeremaeker, Del Grande, Di Giorgio, Filion, Fletcher, Ford, Giambrone, Grimes, Hall, Heaps, Jenkins, Lindsay Luby, McConnell, Mihevc, Miller, Moeser, Moscoe, Nunziata, Palacio, Pantalone, Perks, Rae, Saundercook, Thompson, Vaughan

Opposed: Holyday, Kelly, Lee, Milczyn, Minnan-Wong, Ootes, Parker, Perruzza, Shiner, Stintz, Walker

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=4671

she mastered doing 180, no?

[olek86]

The idea that the private sector is going to pay for subways was just a sideshow.

The private sector doesn't dole out free money. They might finance subways, but we would still need to find a way to pay for the subways eventually, plus the cost of the financing.

I understand, however the subway lobby is the only side that has not shown clear ways of funding the subways they want, everybody has plans for LRT etc but whenever you mention to somebody how will you fund subways they have no clue.

[BornRuff]

and here is how stintz voted in 2009

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=4671

she mastered doing 180, no?

Based on your link.

"In the final vote on the item with all of its amendments, the vote was 42:2 with only Councillors Kelly and Mihevc(!) opposed, and Councillor Feldman absent."

So Stinz did in fact support that motion.

The entire text of the motion that she voted on is below. Given that it is one part of a motion with many points, she could have been voting against many different things in that particular vote.


City Council direct the City Manager and Chief General Manager of the TTC to commence discussions with Metrolinx, the Province of Ontario, York Region and Government of Canada for the purposes of securing the appropriate funding and service agreements on the basis of the following requirements:

a. Consistent with the MoveOntario 2020 commitments, the City expects the Province of Ontario will be responsible for all capital costs, including property acquisition costs, necessary to implement the Yonge Subway Extension;

b. Any increases in net operating costs resulting from the operation of the Yonge Subway Extension will be at no cost to the City of Toronto;

c. TTC will be responsible for project management and delivery of the Yonge Subway Extension Project;

d. TTC will operate and maintain the subway infrastructure (including commuter parking lots) but excluding passenger pick up and drop off and bus terminals in York Region;

e. TTC will own the property, assets and subway facilities within York Region except for bus terminals and passenger pick up and drop off facilities/bus terminals located in York Region;

f. Stations and bus interface facilities used by the TTC will be designed and built consistent with TTC design standards and practices;

g. The Subway Rail Yard Needs Study to support the Yonge Subway Extension and service increases on the Yonge-University-Spadina (YUS) subway, being conducted by the TTC, may identify location options in York Region and may provide for further funding needs beyond those currently reflected in the preliminary budget;

h. The Spadina Subway Extension and Automatic Train Operation/Control (ATO/ATC) system on the YUS line must be in place prior to the opening of the Yonge Subway Extension;

i. The cost of measures to address potential capacity constraints at the Yonge-Bloor Station and North York Service Road arising from the proposed Yonge Subway Extension are to be included as project costs;

j. The proposed new subway stations and related properties (e.g., bus loops, parking lots) be built in such a manner as to optimize the development potential of those sites;

k. The EA process also identify development sites along the route and explore/protect for direct links into the proposed new subway stations from those sites;

l. Metrolinx be requested to prioritize the Downtown Relief Line within its 15-year plan, noting that Transit City is the first priority for the Toronto Transit Commission and the City of Toronto; and

m. Metrolinx be requested to prioritize the Downtown Relief Line in advance of the Yonge North Extension in order to accommodate capacity issues resulting from the extension of the Yonge Subway.

Also, this was before she was chair of the TTC. Why would it be a bad thing if she changed her mind on something after getting more involved and learning more. Do we not want our leaders to act on the best information that they have at the time, and not just focused on being ideologically consistent for the sake of being ideologically consistent?

[BornRuff]

I understand, however the subway lobby is the only side that has not shown clear ways of funding the subways they want, everybody has plans for LRT etc but whenever you mention to somebody how will you fund subways they have no clue.

Yup, that is what made me most angry in all of this. We had a clear and actionable plan to improve transit in Toronto, and it was being held up for the vague notion that "people want subways", without even the slightest clue of how they would actually implement that.

The Sheppard LRT was under construction when Ford cancelled it. The first phase was supposed to be open by September of this year! This would have meant that Scarborough would have had an LRT line from the STC and beyond long before they closed down the SRT, which would have helped to ease that burden. Now it is slated to be completed in 2021. What a great service they did for the residents of Scarborough.

[vero95]

Based on your link.

"In the final vote on the item with all of its amendments, the vote was 42:2 with only Councillors Kelly and Mihevc(!) opposed, and Councillor Feldman absent."

So Stinz did in fact support that motion.

The entire text of the motion that she voted on is below. Given that it is one part of a motion with many points, she could have been voting against many different things in that particular vote.



Also, this was before she was chair of the TTC. Why would it be a bad thing if she changed her mind on something after getting more involved and learning more. Do we not want our leaders to act on the best information that they have at the time, and not just focused on being ideologically consistent for the sake of being ideologically consistent?

and here is province's reaction to what you describe as learning curve :facepalm:

“If you’re in the province you had David Miller’s plan and then you had obviously my plan that came through and then you had council that revised or dismissed my plan and made up their own plan on the fly and then they came up with a fourth plan. If you’re the province, you’re going to say ‘Enough is enough,’ and I think that’s what they said. You know, next month they’re going to come up with another plan? I don’t blame the province for doing what they did.”

- Mayor Rob Ford on Tuesday applauding the provincial Liberals for throwing TTC chair Karen Stintz’s OneCity plan under the bus last Friday.


FYI, I am not sure she is learning. in 2009, she was against streetcars. then she gave them 100% support and voted for them to later talk about subways again
she is just incompetent


Back in 2009, Stintz told the Sun the LRT plan was “short-sighted” and argued Sheppard Ave. E., Eglinton and Scarborough-Malvern lines should be subways.

At that time, she advocated the idea subway lines be used to encourage development in areas where increased density is desirable.

“Had we taken that approach on Yonge St., we wouldn’t be the city we are today,” she said. “From a long-term city-building perspective, (Sheppard) really should be a subway, as should the Eglinton and Scarborough lines.”

“I think that we are taking a short-sighted approach to how we’re going to use this investment to benefit the city.”

http://blogs.canoe.ca/goodgravy/tag/karen-stintz/

[olek86]

and here is province's reaction to what you describe as learning curve :facepalm:

The reason the province was so angry because we can not stick to one plan with a measure of successes, if we stuck with original targets and not clouded the public's judgement on wither we can build subways ,we would be a lot further then we are now, the simple fact is that nothing has been done on building subways, no clear plans presented, no partners on board, and no funding assigned, so we can talk about subways till we are not blue in the face, however until we come with feasible plans for building them, the regime will change at city hall, and we will get another plan.

[vero95]

The reason the province was so angry because we can not stick to one plan with a measure of successes, if we stuck with original targets and not clouded the public's judgement on wither we can build subways ,we would be a lot further then we are now, the simple fact is that nothing has been done on building subways, no clear plans presented, no partners on board, and no funding assigned, so we can talk about subways till we are not blue in the face, however until we come with feasible plans for building them, the regime will change at city hall, and we will get another plan.

the province was angry because stintz finalized streetcars everywhere project and later came up with an idea of one city and subways

[olek86]

The only reason subways where even on table because of the change in administration which decided that we will drag the subway idea for two years with out a vision, plan or even private sector participation, so yes i want subways too however how about a proper plan on how we will build them and some basic funding agreements, its not hard to with sports stadiums but we can not do with subways, seems like Ford knows he can not realistically build them but again does not want to go back on his word to his voters and rather just sit and let this drag on while the public just suffers through even worse congestion in the city .

[wilsonlam97]

The only reason subways where even on table because of the change in administration which decided that we will drag the subway idea for two years with out a vision, plan or even private sector participation, so yes i want subways too however how about a proper plan on how we will build them and some basic funding agreements, its not hard to with sports stadiums but we can not do with subways, seems like Ford knows he can not realistically build them but again does not want to go back on his word to his voters and rather just sit and let this drag on while the public just suffers through even worse congestion in the city .

I would rather see buses than streetcars. Subways are an option but if we aren't ready for it then I guess us as a community will have to accept it. But building LRTs is a horrible idea IMO.

[BornRuff]

and here is province's reaction to what you describe as learning curve :facepalm:


FYI, I am not sure she is learning. in 2009, she was against streetcars. then she gave them 100% support and voted for them to later talk about subways again
she is just incompetent


http://blogs.canoe.ca/goodgravy/tag/karen-stintz/

Umm, you quoted Rob Ford, not "the province".

[BornRuff]

I would rather see buses than streetcars. Subways are an option but if we aren't ready for it then I guess us as a community will have to accept it. But building LRTs is a horrible idea IMO.

Why would building LRT be a horrible idea? Study after study has shown that they are perfect for the current and future demand in these areas.

[wilsonlam97]

Why would building LRT be a horrible idea? Study after study has shown that they are perfect for the current and future demand in these areas.

Both are extremely costly projects and a LRT takes up precious road space even if it can go underground in areas where the lanes can't be expanded. On Sheppard it's already pretty dang slow (they just finished construction on Brimley/sheppard).

An LRT lane is just not worth killing the potential expandability of the roads.

Also a LRT means there will be a new network of overhanging electric cables which is a eyesore. Instead of wasting money ($700 million presto project) we should just wait till we are ready to embrace a subway line. LRTs will cap our city's growth by creating gridlock in the future.

Remember these are the same id**ts that wanted to put a dedicated transit lane on Finch. We should also upgrade our current subway infrastructure to be faster and have automation. If it was actually fast compared to a car then people would use the subway more often even if it is a less luxurious ride. That way we'd be getting more people in and out of the city instead of attempting to achieve impossible upgrades to the Don Valley Parkway.

[olek86]

What should of happened about 3-5 years ago was a general levy on all developers who are building new developments in the city primarily for infrastructure projects such as public transport and fixing the Gardiner then with pace of condo's going up increasing we would build a fund to overtime build the necessary public transport projects.

In terms of subway's anybody with Engineering background know if we would be able to build the subway downtown further underground as the current line is very close to the surface in terms of the type of subways we have. Would we be able to build further underground without closing main roads like they do in New York.

[geokilla]

Both are extremely costly projects and a LRT takes up precious road space even if it can go underground in areas where the lanes can't be expanded. On Sheppard it's already pretty dang slow (they just finished construction on Brimley/sheppard).

An LRT lane is just not worth killing the potential expandability of the roads.

Also a LRT means there will be a new network of overhanging electric cables which is a eyesore. Instead of wasting money ($700 million presto project) we should just wait till we are ready to embrace a subway line. LRTs will cap our city's growth by creating gridlock in the future.

Remember these are the same id**ts that wanted to put a dedicated transit lane on Finch. We should also upgrade our current subway infrastructure to be faster and have automation. If it was actually fast compared to a car then people would use the subway more often even if it is a less luxurious ride. That way we'd be getting more people in and out of the city instead of attempting to achieve impossible upgrades to the Don Valley Parkway.

What you haven't noticed though is that North Americans only like the bandaid short term fix. Rarely do I hear them talk about long term fixes. Take a look at Hwy 7. A dedicated VIVA lane. Ok so what? Hwy 7 will still be heavily congested. There won't be enough buses to use that dedicated VIVA lane. Plus now left turn traffic is forever screwed and there will be more congestion. Instead of making a dedicated VIVA lane, I feel they should have taken the Eglington and Don Mills Road route and used diamond lanes but left it out of that stupid rush hour only rule and replace it with a M-F 7am to 8pm kind of rule. That way, everyone benefits, as Hwy 7 would become a 8 lane "highway", and HOV can use it as well, along with cyclists, taxis, etc.

I should add that as knowing someone who is in charge of the construction, there are constantly delays to that project because the engineers don't do their job correctly when it comes to design and construction. So why are we so incompetent? You tell me.

Now back on topic: I like the idea of extending the Bloor-Danforth line to Sheppard Avenue East. They could also keep the Scarborough RT running as well, if that is possible. That way, Scarborough will have two lines, at least in the near future. Do I like it more than a dedicated Sheppard Subway line? Nope. But hey, it's better than Sheppard LRT.

[WildWolf]

The Subway in Scarborough will never happen anytime soon. There is too much political red tape and a Mayor that only likes to play with Tonka Trucks. Secondly an LRT would not effect Business or peoples commute, besides in all honestly what 'great' business are in Toronto, if you ask me not many, besides your typical 'corporate' business which get their business regardless. And finally people of Scarborough, don't really know what they want, and you can't go by their logic, unless they speak logic as in "LRT are worth it" then listen, otherwise forget it and that is not leaning to one side, you can't go digging holes underground, as they want to going up McCowan without the possibility of causing causing or even better, having people who live in their houses hearing a train rumble beneath their feet.

[olek86]

The Subway in Scarborough will never happen anytime soon. There is too much political red tape and a Mayor that only likes to play with Tonka Trucks. Secondly an LRT would not effect Business or peoples commute, besides in all honestly what 'great' business are in Toronto, if you ask me not many, besides your typical 'corporate' business which get their business regardless. And finally people of Scarborough, don't really know what they want, and you can't go by their logic, unless they speak logic as in "LRT are worth it" then listen, otherwise forget it and that is not leaning to one side, you can't go digging holes underground, as they want to going up McCowan without the possibility of causing causing or even better, having people who live in their houses hearing a train rumble beneath their feet.

People do not want to pay more taxes or decrease services provided by the city but still want world class transit, i would be dragging my heals to if i was mayor to because the public is in denial about what needs to occur for there to be proper public transit.

[BornRuff]

Both are extremely costly projects and a LRT takes up precious road space even if it can go underground in areas where the lanes can't be expanded. On Sheppard it's already pretty dang slow (they just finished construction on Brimley/sheppard).

An LRT lane is just not worth killing the potential expandability of the roads.

Also a LRT means there will be a new network of overhanging electric cables which is a eyesore. Instead of wasting money ($700 million presto project) we should just wait till we are ready to embrace a subway line. LRTs will cap our city's growth by creating gridlock in the future.

Remember these are the same id**ts that wanted to put a dedicated transit lane on Finch. We should also upgrade our current subway infrastructure to be faster and have automation. If it was actually fast compared to a car then people would use the subway more often even if it is a less luxurious ride. That way we'd be getting more people in and out of the city instead of attempting to achieve impossible upgrades to the Don Valley Parkway.

We have gridlock right now. Buses paralyze the curb lanes on these streets during rush hour.

It will be many decades before most of these places have enough density to justify a subway, but we have the space and the money to put in LRT tracks without losing any lanes right now. It is almost as if you add a new lane since you get the buses out of the curb lane.

We have seen extra lanes added to the 401 and other roads, and we still have horrible traffic. The amount that we can actually improve traffic on these streets by expanding them is marginal. The LRT plans maximize the use of the space, since it takes buses out of the way of traffic, and gives people a way to completely bypass the traffic.

The HOV lanes are also really just a marginal improvement, since buses and cars still get in each other's way.

[BornRuff]

What you haven't noticed though is that North Americans only like the bandaid short term fix. Rarely do I hear them talk about long term fixes. Take a look at Hwy 7. A dedicated VIVA lane. Ok so what? Hwy 7 will still be heavily congested. There won't be enough buses to use that dedicated VIVA lane. Plus now left turn traffic is forever screwed and there will be more congestion. Instead of making a dedicated VIVA lane, I feel they should have taken the Eglington and Don Mills Road route and used diamond lanes but left it out of that stupid rush hour only rule and replace it with a M-F 7am to 8pm kind of rule. That way, everyone benefits, as Hwy 7 would become a 8 lane "highway", and HOV can use it as well, along with cyclists, taxis, etc.

I should add that as knowing someone who is in charge of the construction, there are constantly delays to that project because the engineers don't do their job correctly when it comes to design and construction. So why are we so incompetent? You tell me.

Now back on topic: I like the idea of extending the Bloor-Danforth line to Sheppard Avenue East. They could also keep the Scarborough RT running as well, if that is possible. That way, Scarborough will have two lines, at least in the near future. Do I like it more than a dedicated Sheppard Subway line? Nope. But hey, it's better than Sheppard LRT.

The LRT plan isn't a bandaid fix. They were proposed because they have the capability to handle the projected ridership far into the future.

[olek86]

How feasible would it be to build public transport along the Hydro fields that run through the city, and just create the lines along those corridors .

[BornRuff]

How feasible would it be to build public transport along the Hydro fields that run through the city, and just create the lines along those corridors .

That can work for express routes. They currently use the Finch hydro corridor for the York Uni Busway.

The Finch hydro corridor is half a kilometer north of Finch, the major roads that connect it to Finch are at least a km apart. It really limits the accessibility of the transit line.

[EPcjay]

It still make sense to bring the the B/D line up north to Sheppard. Ellesmere and Midland is a under used station and should be closed down. STC's got major connections between Oshawa, Ajax, Pickering, and it's desinated to be one of the urban growth centres. Furthermore, with its current ridership it can support a subway easily. I can only imagine it increase once the subway has been implemented.

[WildWolf]

People do not want to pay more taxes or decrease services provided by the city but still want world class transit, i would be dragging my heals to if i was mayor to because the public is in denial about what needs to occur for there to be proper public transit.

Subway is not proper transit, besides you in the 905, you have no voice, like the rest of the 905ers voicing their opinion on this.

[BornRuff]

It still make sense to bring the the B/D line up north to Sheppard. Ellesmere and Midland is a under used station and should be closed down. STC's got major connections between Oshawa, Ajax, Pickering, and it's desinated to be one of the urban growth centres. Furthermore, with its current ridership it can support a subway easily. I can only imagine it increase once the subway has been implemented.

Well, that area was supposed to be a center of major growth for a long time now, but it hasn't quite happened as planned yet.

I don't think that is a bad idea, but I think we need to build from the inside out. If we keep funneling more and more riders into the same core lines that are already overburdened, it is going to get uglier and uglier. If we are to have a lot more traffic coming from the east, a DTRL would be perfect to divert that traffic from the YUS line.

[vero95]

Umm, you quoted Rob Ford, not "the province".

it was Rob's reaction to the liberal's decision, no?
if you want to talk like an expert, you should start acting like one. unfortunately the only thing you can do is trolling :facepalm:

The Ontario government dealt it an early blow by declaring it would not change its plans for the Scarborough RT, one of four lines it is paying to build in Toronto. Mayor Rob Ford and councillors on both sides of the political fence also voiced opposition.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/11/karen-stintzs-onecity-transit-plan-goes-down-in-flames/

[vero95]

Subway is not proper transit, besides you in the 905, you have no voice, like the rest of the 905ers voicing their opinion on this.

LOL and streetcars with the average speed of 22kmh are proper transit :facepalm:

[vero95]

We have gridlock right now. Buses paralyze the curb lanes on these streets during rush hour.

It will be many decades before most of these places have enough density to justify a subway, but we have the space and the money to put in LRT tracks without losing any lanes right now. It is almost as if you add a new lane since you get the buses out of the curb lane.

We have seen extra lanes added to the 401 and other roads, and we still have horrible traffic. The amount that we can actually improve traffic on these streets by expanding them is marginal. The LRT plans maximize the use of the space, since it takes buses out of the way of traffic, and gives people a way to completely bypass the traffic.

The HOV lanes are also really just a marginal improvement, since buses and cars still get in each other's way.

if you give buses a dedicated lane, which you will give to those streetcars, the effect will be the same
so why is that an explanation? LOL
I am not saying those streetcars are a wrong idea where they are suitable but are they suitable everywhere? :facepalm:

[vero95]

People do not want to pay more taxes or decrease services provided by the city but still want world class transit, i would be dragging my heals to if i was mayor to because the public is in denial about what needs to occur for there to be proper public transit.

I agree. streetcars are not a solution and a waste of money but the money was on the table and they had to spend it fast or it would be gone
I bet the end cost of those streetcars will be higher than projected costs of building subways

[olek86]

Subway is not proper transit, besides you in the 905, you have no voice, like the rest of the 905ers voicing their opinion on this.

Why not that kind of thinking is why we don't have integrated transit system in the GTA, petty regional thinking

[geokilla]

The LRT plan isn't a bandaid fix. They were proposed because they have the capability to handle the projected ridership far into the future.

And subway can handle them just as well, but they won't hinder business and traffic.


it was Rob's reaction to the liberal's decision, no?
if you want to talk like an expert, you should start acting like one. unfortunately the only thing you can do is trolling :facepalm:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/11/karen-stintzs-onecity-transit-plan-goes-down-in-flames/


LOL and streetcars with the average speed of 22kmh are proper transit :facepalm:


if you give buses a dedicated lane, which you will give to those streetcars, the effect will be the same
so why is that an explanation? LOL
I am not saying those streetcars are a wrong idea where they are suitable but are they suitable everywhere? :facepalm:


I agree. streetcars are not a solution and a waste of money but the money was on the table and they had to spend it fast or it would be gone
I bet the end cost of those streetcars will be higher than projected costs of building subways

Nice quadruple post.


Well, that area was supposed to be a center of major growth for a long time now, but it hasn't quite happened as planned yet.

I don't think that is a bad idea, but I think we need to build from the inside out. If we keep funneling more and more riders into the same core lines that are already overburdened, it is going to get uglier and uglier. If we are to have a lot more traffic coming from the east, a DTRL would be perfect to divert that traffic from the YUS line.

Midland definitely gets used quite a bit because it's right there on Midland Avenue, just like McCowan. Ellesmere, not so much because you have to walk super far to get from the station to the bus stop. If the 95 bus would turn into Ellesmere station, I'm willing to bet that whole area would change in terms of public transportation patterns. But even having said that, Ellesmere station and Midland station are far too close. If I lived in the area, I'd rather wait for the Midland or Kennedy bus to go to their respective stations rather than go to Ellesmere station.

[starkiller2010]

My understanding is that the SLRT will be just a conversion from the current track to LRT tech and extend it up to Sheppard and Markham Rd Area. I see no problems with this, and the speed will be faster than 22 KM/H (should be around the same the current SRT). I don't see the need to extend the green subway line for all that extra money.

More concerned about Sheppard LRT; rather have a BRT line like the VIVA one up on Hwy 7 and use savings to plug into other subway projects like extending Sheppard line to either Vic Park or west to Downsview (form a northern bridge to connect east with north west part of Toronto.

[vero95]

My understanding is that the SLRT will be just a conversion from the current track to LRT tech and extend it up to Sheppard and Markham Rd Area. I see no problems with this, and the speed will be faster than 22 KM/H (should be around the same the current SRT). I don't see the need to extend the green subway line for all that extra money.

More concerned about Sheppard LRT; rather have a BRT line like the VIVA one up on Hwy 7 and use savings to plug into other subway projects like extending Sheppard line to either Vic Park or west to Downsview (form a northern bridge to connect east with north west part of Toronto.

22kmh is an average speed of those streetcars where they interfere with the traffic
SRT does not so the speeds will be higher
The average speed of LRTs in NA is 30-36kmh

[vero95]

Nice quadruple post.
.

Thanks

[BornRuff]

if you give buses a dedicated lane, which you will give to those streetcars, the effect will be the same
so why is that an explanation? LOL
I am not saying those streetcars are a wrong idea where they are suitable but are they suitable everywhere? :facepalm:

The LRT trains are faster and more efficient than buses. You would need way more buses to move the same number of people, which requires way more staff. Over the long term, staff are the most expensive cost. You are also looking at more interference with intersections since you will need to get more vehicles through.

I'm very impressed with that final line. You are finally kind of getting it. You finally get that these LRTs are the right solution in certain areas, and that one type of transit is not appropriate everywhere.

The areas that LRT has been proposed are all quite similar, and perfect areas for these LRT lines.

[BornRuff]

22kmh is an average speed of those streetcars where they interfere with the traffic
SRT does not so the speeds will be higher
The average speed of LRTs in NA is 30-36kmh

Still waiting for you to actually provide proof of that number.

[BornRuff]

And subway can handle them just as well, but they won't hinder business and traffic.

It is true that subways can handle that amount of traffic as well, but it simply isn't necessary in these areas.

Toronto's transit situation is becoming pretty dire. When we have a plan that is perfect for the area, that is funded and ready to go, why do we want to hold it up for an unnecessarily expensive alternative that in all likelihood will never happen?

[WildWolf]

LOL and streetcars with the average speed of 22kmh are proper transit :facepalm:

Did I say street cars, let me read what I said, look at that I didn't, surprise, surprise. I meant LRT, common.

[BornRuff]

Did I say street cars, let me read what I said, look at that I didn't, surprise, surprise. I meant LRT, common.

haha, he has a real problem with that.

[olek86]

Why not build LRT lines along the hydro lines connecting through interacting subway stops that are currently already established. Especially in the less densely populated parts of the cities there is still space to build stand alone LRT lines

[vero95]

Did I say street cars, let me read what I said, look at that I didn't, surprise, surprise. I meant LRT, common.

the type of transit you build depends on the distance it covers. you are not going to expect people will actually travel over 20kms with the speed of 22kmh
there are minimal differences between new streetcars and what they call LRT cars. the service also is closer to streetcars level (19kmh) than LRTs (30-36kmh) hence they are building streetcars

[vero95]

Still waiting for you to actually provide proof of that number.

I've done that numerous times and you keep asking :facepalm:

here, read this
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tcrp/tcrp_w53.pdf

while many LRTs in NA operate at speeds 35mph they are going to build a system in toronto that will operate at 22kmh LOL it's a failure before even built :facepalm:


and here are LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT SERVICE GUIDELINES
Table 9

Minimum Average
Operating Speed
~25 mph

http://www.vta.org/projects/tsp/pdf/7_light_rail_transit_service_guidelines.pdf

[WildWolf]

the type of transit you build depends on the distance it covers. you are not going to expect people will actually travel over 20kms with the speed of 22kmh
there are minimal differences between new streetcars and what they call LRT cars. the service also is closer to streetcars level (19kmh) than LRTs (30-36kmh) hence they are building streetcars

What do you want the 'streetcars' as you like to put it, to run at 120 km/h ? What do you propose, Subways ?
Everyone wants Subways, lets have a Subway running down under this side street, how about under that main street, sure why not.

[LostInTruth]

Why do people even bother with vero? Dude is not even from Toronto, and contributes nothing to its development.

[WildWolf]

Why do people even bother with vero? Dude is not even from Toronto, and contributes nothing to its development.

Is Charlie Sheen his role model ?

[BornRuff]

I've done that numerous times and you keep asking :facepalm:

here, read this
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tcrp/tcrp_w53.pdf

while many LRTs in NA operate at speeds 35mph they are going to build a system in toronto that will operate at 22kmh LOL it's a failure before even built :facepalm:


and here are LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT SERVICE GUIDELINES
Table 9

http://www.vta.org/projects/tsp/pdf/7_light_rail_transit_service_guidelines.pdf

So in other words, you still can't find any evidence to support your comment on the average speed of LRTs in NA?

Exactly where in those articles does it talk about the average speed of LRTs in NA? I see one article about ungated crossings and one about LRT projects in Santa Clara Valley. The same chart you pulled that number from also states that LRTs should run between 6am and 10pm, and fares should be within VTA guidelines. Does that sound like they are talking about all LRTs in NA to you?

When I am driving, I travel at about 120km/h when driving between Toronto and Waterloo with no traffic. That doesn't mean that when I am driving along Sheppard at a rate of speed that is a tiny fraction of that, I am doing it wrong.

[BornRuff]

the type of transit you build depends on the distance it covers. you are not going to expect people will actually travel over 20kms with the speed of 22kmh
there are minimal differences between new streetcars and what they call LRT cars. the service also is closer to streetcars level (19kmh) than LRTs (30-36kmh) hence they are building streetcars

That is one consideration, but you also need to consider how many people it will be carrying, and where people will be accessing the transit line.

Nobody can argue that people wont use these lines at these speeds when we already have more than enough people using these lines at bus speeds, which is a tiny fraction of LRT speed when the buses are in the middle of rush hour gridlock. Why would use decrease when speed, comfort, and reliability improve?

[BornRuff]

Why not build LRT lines along the hydro lines connecting through interacting subway stops that are currently already established. Especially in the less densely populated parts of the cities there is still space to build stand alone LRT lines

I addressed this very recently in this thread, but these Hydro corridors are not very well located. The Finch hydro corridor is half a km north of Finch at its closest, and the cross roads that connect it to Finch are 1km or more in most places. That really isn't great for a line that is supposed to be providing local service along Finch.

[vero95]

So in other words, you still can't find any evidence to support your comment on the average speed of LRTs in NA?

Exactly where in those articles does it talk about the average speed of LRTs in NA? I see one article about ungated crossings and one about LRT projects in Santa Clara Valley. The same chart you pulled that number from also states that LRTs should run between 6am and 10pm, and fares should be within VTA guidelines. Does that sound like they are talking about all LRTs in NA to you?

When I am driving, I travel at about 120km/h when driving between Toronto and Waterloo with no traffic. That doesn't mean that when I am driving along Sheppard at a rate of speed that is a tiny fraction of that, I am doing it wrong.


dude, please stop your nonsense
I posted numerous times average speeds of various LRTs in Canada and US
here, again and for chr*st sake stop asking for it again. that's really dumb, dude

calgary ctrain

Average speed (km/hr): 35
http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/technical_information.html

edmonton

average operating speed is 37 km/h.
http://207.112.105.217/PEN/2002-09/s-hammonds.html

average speed operating speed of 37 kph
http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_edm_2006-03a.htm

vancouver

average guideway speeds of approximately 45 km/h
http://www.scanbc.com/wiki/index.php?title=Skytrain

The Canada Line, whilst having a maintaining a comparably slower average speed of 35km/h
http://skytrainforsurrey.org/2012/02/16/canada-line-riders-value-speed-frequency-and-reliability/

average service speed of 43.5 km/h
http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr16/f44_vancouver.html

The Canada Line travels at a significantly speedier average speed of 22 mph.
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/04/20/can-vancouver-afford-to-abandon-skytrain-for-its-broadway-route/


The speed of light rail transit systems in the United States average just slightly more than 20 miles (32 km) per hour. The fastest in Denver, Colorado and Los Angeles, California can go nearly 40 miles (64 km) per hour, but most are significantly slower.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-light-rail-transit.htm

[vero95]

That is one consideration, but you also need to consider how many people it will be carrying, and where people will be accessing the transit line.

Nobody can argue that people wont use these lines at these speeds when we already have more than enough people using these lines at bus speeds, which is a tiny fraction of LRT speed when the buses are in the middle of rush hour gridlock. Why would use decrease when speed, comfort, and reliability improve?

overall it will not be carrying too many people if the average speed is 22kmh
how many times do I need to repeat that the same could be achieved by creating a dedicated line for buses. the problem is traffic congestion and

Light rail has not lived up to the promise of reducing the number of cars on the road. Light rail does not get drivers out of their cars.
http://reason.org/news/show/why-light-rail-is-wrong-for-ta

[vero95]

I addressed this very recently in this thread, but these Hydro corridors are not very well located. The Finch hydro corridor is half a km north of Finch at its closest, and the cross roads that connect it to Finch are 1km or more in most places. That really isn't great for a line that is supposed to be providing local service along Finch.

how can you address anything if you do not know basics and ask questions about basic stuff? LOL
you talk like an expert but you are just a troll ;)

[vero95]

What do you want the 'streetcars' as you like to put it, to run at 120 km/h ? What do you propose, Subways ?
Everyone wants Subways, lets have a Subway running down under this side street, how about under that main street, sure why not.

if I can't afford a mansion, I would not build a garden shed for 3/4 of the price just because it's cheaper ;)
is your goal to spend money or to resolve the problem? I am tired of hearing that cliche that "everyone wants subways"
look at the eglinton line. it's buried anyway. it's idiotic to put a streetcar under ground. what's even worse that buried stretch will not be used to it's maximum because streetcars headway is larger than subways (they will run every few minutes due to the interference with traffic). they will also be much shorter (most probably just 2 cars due to the traffic). therefore the streetcars will not support the possible ridership and will not justify the whole investment for that line
so you are saying we can't afford subways but you are for very expensive streetcars that do not make any sense :facepalm:

[WildWolf]

overall it will not be carrying too many people if the average speed is 22kmh
how many times do I need to repeat that the same could be achieved by creating a dedicated line for buses. the problem is traffic congestion and

http://reason.org/news/show/why-light-rail-is-wrong-for-ta

Buses are not logical. A dedicated line for a LRT is the smarter route to go, place it in the center as planned and it can carry more people. Your solution simply is 'more buses', besides there is already a 'dedicated line for buses' I see them everyday, they exist at present. Regardless how fast LRT go, the newer LRT are more effective then the old street cars, do you know what issues arose on a regular basis with the old street cars ? Yet you continue to congest the streets with buses, except a long row of them going down the street and how do you think that will speed up the flow of moving people, it won't. Think, Think I swear people just splat out what they heard or what everyone else is saying, yet even a coffee doesn't help the thinking tank.

[BornRuff]

Buses are not logical. A dedicated line for a LRT is the smarter route to go, place it in the center as planned and it can carry more people. Your solution simply is 'more buses', besides there is already a 'dedicated line for buses' I see them everyday, they exist at present. Regardless how fast LRT go, the newer LRT are more effective then the old street cars, do you know what issues arose on a regular basis with the old street cars ? Yet you continue to congest the streets with buses, except a long row of them going down the street and how do you think that will speed up the flow of moving people, it won't. Think, Think I swear people just splat out what they heard or what everyone else is saying, yet even a coffee doesn't help the thinking tank.

The sad thing is that he has been provided with proof against all of these points about 20 times now, but he just charges on with the exact same stuff over and over again. It is a lost cause.

[WildWolf]

The sad thing is that he has been provided with proof against all of these points about 20 times now, but he just charges on with the exact same stuff over and over again. It is a lost cause.

I will contribute no more to this thread, regardless what is written. If some people are going to go on with out 'thinking' and many points as I brought up have been mentioned, then you are right :)

[vero95]

The sad thing is that he has been provided with proof against all of these points about 20 times now, but he just charges on with the exact same stuff over and over again. It is a lost cause.

where is this proof? :facepalm:

I showed you average speeds of LRTs in NA and I am pretty sure you will be asking for evidence again next month : facepalm:
that's how dumb your posts are LOL

[vero95]

I will contribute no more to this thread, regardless what is written. If some people are going to go on with out 'thinking' and many points as I brought up have been mentioned, then you are right :)

what have you contributed so far? :facepalm:

[BornRuff]

where is this proof? :facepalm:

I showed you average speeds of LRTs in NA and I am pretty sure you will be asking for evidence again next month : facepalm:
that's how dumb your posts are LOL

The fact that this is plural shows that it is going to be impossible to have a real conversation with you.

[vero95]

The fact that this is plural shows that it is going to be impossible to have a real conversation with you.

nah, you can't have a conversations with me because I provide facts that contradict what you are saying
maybe if you educated yourself before expressing yourself on public forum, you would be able to have a conversation

[BornRuff]

nah, you can't have a conversations with me because I provide facts that contradict what you are saying
maybe if you educated yourself before expressing yourself on public forum, you would be able to have a conversation

It is just the same stuff we have beaten to death.

We have gone over your very interesting concept of what an average is.

You were provided with evidence that the underground portion can operate faster than the above ground portion with short turns.

You were provided with evidence that BRT is more expensive to operate and will interfere more with traffic.

You know that 22km per hour is way faster than buses are moving right now on these same lines, and that ridership is already more than enough to justify LRT, so your assertion that nobody will take these LRTs is completely baseless.

But you just keep saying the same stuff over and over again. There is nowhere else to go with this.

[vero95]

It is just the same stuff we have beaten to death.

We have gone over your very interesting concept of what an average is.

I presented you with the average speeds of various LRTs in Canada and US. if you do not know what an average means, google it :facapalm: just stop asking again for any evidence what average speeds of LRTs in NA are LOL



You were provided with evidence that the underground portion can operate faster than the above ground portion with short turns.

I've been asking you for over a year to give me an evidence there will be short turns in the eglinton tunnel :facepalm:
it's quite stupid to build a 11km tunnel in the middle of the city to see there a streetcar every 5 mins during rush hours, no?




You were provided with evidence that BRT is more expensive to operate and will interfere more with traffic.

hmm, when was that? the only evidence I remember form you was pembina report which is not really an evidence because it's flawed and I showed you why LOL




You know that 22km per hour is way faster than buses are moving right now on these same lines, and that ridership is already more than enough to justify LRT, so your assertion that nobody will take these LRTs is completely baseless.

is this project to make people who use buses use streetcars? :facepalm:
I thought you guys were having serious traffic congestions. how many people will stop driving to commute with the speed of 22kmh?



But you just keep saying the same stuff over and over again. There is nowhere else to go with this.

LOL would you elaborate how those short turns will be implemented? people would leave a packed streetcar and wait for another one which will be packed as well? :facepalm:

[BornRuff]

I presented you with the average speeds of various LRTs in Canada and US. if you do not know what an average means, google it :facapalm: just stop asking again for any evidence what average speeds of LRTs in NA are LOL


I've been asking you for over a year to give me an evidence there will be short turns in the eglinton tunnel :facepalm:
it's quite stupid to build a 11km tunnel in the middle of the city to see there a streetcar every 5 mins during rush hours, no?



hmm, when was that? the only evidence I remember form you was pembina report which is not really an evidence because it's flawed and I showed you why LOL



is this project to make people who use buses use streetcars? :facepalm:
I thought you guys were having serious traffic congestions. how many people will stop driving to commute with the speed of 22kmh?



LOL would you elaborate how those short turns will be implemented? people would leave a packed streetcar and wait for another one which will be packed as well? :facepalm:

You can find all of this in our past discussions. If your memory is bad, just go back and give them a read.

[vero95]

You can find all of this in our past discussions. If your memory is bad, just go back and give them a read.

my memory is good. you've never provided anything about short turns in the tunnel :facepalm:
come back when you find such proof ;)

[BornRuff]

my memory is good. you've never provided anything about short turns in the tunnel :facepalm:
come back when you find such proof ;)

The very first result when you google "Eglinton LRT short turn"

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/epr/chapter-3-project-description-sections-3-1-to-3-4.pdf


LRT operating headways will likely vary throughout the corridor. The tunnel portion of the LRT corridor will
have turn back capability at both ends of the tunnel section to allow the LRT to operate with short turn
service and provide shorter headways than on the surface sections. Headways on the surface section of
the LRT also may vary depending on ridership demand.

[vero95]

The very first result when you google "Eglinton LRT short turn"

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/epr/chapter-3-project-description-sections-3-1-to-3-4.pdf

6 mins headway and 8000 people per hour. Not very impressive for a massive transit system. A subway could go every min
You do understand that short turns only make sense if the riderships drop at the end of the tunnel. As I said before you are not going to unload a packed train. so the question remains open if this makes any sense
Also check Exhibit 96. You were saying this line was never planned to go to the airport. I hope you do not mind I use your link to prove you wrong again

[Drew87]

6 mins headway and 8000 people per hour. Not very impressive for a massive transit system. A subway could go every min
You do understand that short turns only make sense if the riderships drop at the end of the tunnel. As I said before you are not going to unload a packed train. so the question remains open if this makes any sense
Also check Exhibit 96. You were saying this line was never planned to go to the airport. I hope you do not mind I use your link to prove you wrong again

I've been on packed trains that have been unloaded and gone out of service only to wait for another train just as full to come right after it.

[BornRuff]

6 mins headway and 8000 people per hour. Not very impressive for a massive transit system. A subway could go every min
You do understand that short turns only make sense if the riderships drop at the end of the tunnel. As I said before you are not going to unload a packed train. so the question remains open if this makes any sense
Also check Exhibit 96. You were saying this line was never planned to go to the airport. I hope you do not mind I use your link to prove you wrong again

Lol, when?

[vero95]

Lol, when?


Well, there really are not any plans to do that. It was proposed as a possible extension as part of Transit City, but we are not on that path anymore. We can cross that bridge when we get there. You have been vehemently against the Eglinton LRT as it is planned right now.
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/great-rfd-toronto-lrt-vs-subway-poll-1154412/33/#post14706252

and stop sidetracking. I asked you few times to provide a proof the ridership will drop at the end of the tunnel to justify the short turns. without that saying that they could do short turns has no meaning

[vero95]

I've been on packed trains that have been unloaded and gone out of service only to wait for another train just as full to come right after it.

how did that feel?
if that's scheduled, don't you think it means the line reached it's capacity
would you plan something like that for a new line and spend billions of dollars on that? LOL

[BornRuff]

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/great-rfd-toronto-lrt-vs-subway-poll-1154412/33/#post14706252

and stop sidetracking. I asked you few times to provide a proof the ridership will drop at the end of the tunnel to justify the short turns. without that saying that they could do short turns has no meaning

You can see that the quote there in no way supports what you claimed I said, right?

[king_george]

My goodness are you going to rehash the short-turn hilarity again?

Why do you punish yourself so? :lol:

[vero95]

You can see that the quote there in no way supports what you claimed I said, right?


oh, look. here is a plan with extensions to the airport and mississauga :facepalm:

http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/TransitCityMap.jpg

[BornRuff]

My goodness are you going to rehash the short-turn hilarity again?

Why do you punish yourself so? :lol:

Lol, no. Since proof that they are part of the plan took 10 seconds to google, I decided to post that. I'm not getting into the rest of that stupidity.

[BornRuff]

oh, look. here is a plan with extensions to the airport and mississauga :facepalm:

http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/TransitCityMap.jpg

And this is the quote you supplied.

"Well, there really are not any plans to do that. It was proposed as a possible extension as part of Transit City, but we are not on that path anymore. We can cross that bridge when we get there. You have been vehemently against the Eglinton LRT as it is planned right now."

Exactly what part of that quote is incorrect?

[vero95]

Lol, no. Since proof that they are part of the plan took 10 seconds to google, I decided to post that. I'm not getting into the rest of that stupidity.

you have not provided any proof. we already established that there will be possibility for short turns at the end of the tunnels a year ago. such infrastructure is built for many reasons, example: safety
you just repeated what we knew :facepalm:
just because something can be done does not mean that it will, no? as I said it only makes sense if the ridership drops and it does not make sense to have high frequency of empty trains

[vero95]

And this is the quote you supplied.

"Well, there really are not any plans to do that. It was proposed as a possible extension as part of Transit City, but we are not on that path anymore. We can cross that bridge when we get there. You have been vehemently against the Eglinton LRT as it is planned right now."

Exactly what part of that quote is incorrect?

exactly what don't you understand?
that was your answer to my question:
youare bsing people now that there are no plans to extend that line west
just because that line ends at black creek right now it does not mean that it will not be extended. you have to recall what you were saying that it will never go to mississauga and that's what I quoted. most probably there is more statements like that but I have no time to search. I argued that if it goes to mississauga (planning ahead), 22kmh is too low for such stretch and your argument was that it will not happen (because you create reality Haha)

[BornRuff]

exactly what don't you understand?
that was your answer to my question:
just because that line ends at black creek right now it does not mean that it will not be extended. you have to recall what you were saying that it will never go to mississauga and that's what I quoted. most probably there is more statements like that but I have no time to search. I argued that if it goes to mississauga (planning ahead), 22kmh is too low for such stretch and your argument was that it will not happen (because you create reality Haha)

You just have to read the quote that you pulled. It is very very simple. I can't rephrase it to be any more simple.

[king_george]

Lol, no. Since proof that they are part of the plan took 10 seconds to google, I decided to post that. I'm not getting into the rest of that stupidity.

Well since you-know-who has no idea what a short turn is and why they happen, I can agree with that.

"Special infrastructure". Too funny to believe someone would write that willingly..:lol:

[vero95]

You just have to read the quote that you pulled. It is very very simple. I can't rephrase it to be any more simple.

I told you that it's bs there are no plans to extend that line to the west and you responded that there really are no plans to do that
what part of that don't you understand? :facepalm:

[vero95]

Well since you-know-who has no idea what a short turn is and why they happen, I can agree with that.

"Special infrastructure". Too funny to believe someone would write that willingly..:lol:

are you hurting? you sound as if you are

[BornRuff]

I told you that it's bs there are no plans to extend that line to the west and you responded that there really are no plans to do that
what part of that don't you understand? :facepalm:

I said that it was part of Transit City, but Transit City is no longer being implemented.

[king_george]

are you hurting? you sound as if you are

Yes I am. My sides hurt like heck from laughing at your posts.

Damn you and your ignorance. It's going to cause me to injure myself.

:lol:

OK Back onto the ignore list since you obviously can't learn anything.

Cya!

[vero95]

I said that it was part of Transit City, but Transit City is no longer being implemented.

Just because something is not being implemented under the current plan does not mean it's not planned in the future

[vero95]

Yes I am. My sides hurt like heck from laughing at your posts.

Damn you and your ignorance. It's going to cause me to injure myself.

:lol:

OK Back onto the ignore list since you obviously can't learn anything.

Cya!

Good decision!
it's the only way for you to avoid being hurt whatever the reason

[BornRuff]

Just because something is not being implemented under the current plan does not mean it's not planned in the future

The fact is that the plan that you have cited, Transit City, is not longer planned to be implemented.

[vero95]

The fact is that the plan that you have cited, Transit City, is not longer planned to be implemented.

Does it mean that line will never be extended?
Then the question is if a streetcar will be able to cover such distance if the average speed is just 22kmh
Not to mention the fact that 6 min headway in the tunnel is just a waste of money
Can you imagine a subway every 6 mins on the bloor line during peak hours?
Also read the link you provided what that streetcar will do to the traffic on eglinton
There are lots of doubts already before that line is even built

[BornRuff]

Does it mean that line will never be extended?
Then the question is if a streetcar will be able to cover such distance if the average speed is just 22kmh
Not to mention the fact that 6 min headway in the tunnel is just a waste of money
Can you imagine a subway every 6 mins on the bloor line during peak hours?
Also read the link you provided what that streetcar will do to the traffic on eglinton
There are lots of doubts already before that line is even built

"The service is proposed to operate at least every 6 minutes at peak times regardless of demand."

[BornRuff]

Yes I am. My sides hurt like heck from laughing at your posts.

Damn you and your ignorance. It's going to cause me to injure myself.

:lol:

OK Back onto the ignore list since you obviously can't learn anything.

Cya!

It is even better in light of his other posts like this.


how can you address anything if you do not know basics and ask questions about basic stuff? LOL
you talk like an expert but you are just a troll ;)

[vero95]

"The service is proposed to operate at least every 6 minutes at peak times regardless of demand."

Again does that mean every min that we can see at union station at peaks?
When they say at least 6 mins, they mean 5-6 mins, no?
The higher frequency would kill the traffic on eglinton

[vero95]

It is even better in light of his other posts like this.

Looks like you are hurting too :facepalm:

[BornRuff]

Again does that mean every min that we can see at union station at peaks?
When they say at least 6 mins, they mean 5-6 mins, no?
The higher frequency would kill the traffic on eglinton

Lol, you swear this isn't trolling? You don't know what "at least" means?

It means that regardless of demand, they will not have gaps of more than 6 minutes between trains on the line(not just in the tunnel). It says nothing of what the minimum might be.

[vero95]

Lol, you swear this isn't trolling? You don't know what "at least" means?

It means that regardless of demand, they will not have gaps of more than 6 minutes between trains on the line(not just in the tunnel). It says nothing of what the minimum might be.

no, dude. it means that if you see headways of 5-6mins, it's still acceptable and according to the plan
you will not be able to sue a contractor that told you the gaps would not be more than 6 mins and they in fact are 5-6 mins but you expected 1-2 mins
would you be satisfied with such headways at peak times? :facepalm:
this statement that the service will be at least every 6 mins is a red flag for people who have brains and it's dumb to argue that :facepalm:

[rems]

no, dude. it means that if you see headways of 5-6mins, it's still acceptable and according to the plan
you will not be able to sue a contractor that told you the gaps would not be more than 6 mins and they in fact are 5-6 mins but you expected 1-2 mins
would you be satisfied with such headways at peak times? :facepalm:
this statement that the service will be at least every 6 mins is a red flag for people who have brains and it's dumb to argue that :facepalm:

At least 6 minutes does not mean 5-6 minutes.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/at+least

Idioms:
at least
1. According to the lowest possible assessment; not less than: waited at least an hour.

That means that's the max wait time you'll see. It could be 5, it could be 6. It could also be 1 or 2 or 3.4569892

When I take the subway during rush hour, it comes at least every 3 minutes. That does not mean I wait 2-3 minutes every time. Sometimes the train's there already and I don't wait. Sometimes I wait a minute. Some other times I wait the full 3.

[vero95]

At least 6 minutes does not mean 5-6 minutes.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/at+least


That means that's the max wait time you'll see. It could be 5, it could be 6. It could also be 1 or 2 or 3.4569892

When I take the subway during rush hour, it comes at least every 3 minutes. That does not mean I wait 2-3 minutes every time. Sometimes the train's there already and I don't wait. Sometimes I wait a minute. Some other times I wait the full 3.

it would be fine if it were at least 3 mins but it's at least 6 mins
at least 6 mins is not enough. have it written the service will be at least every 3 mins or it's just a waste of our tax dollars
p.s. do not give me bs that I do not know what at least means :facepalm:

[rems]

it would be fine if it were at least 3 mins but it's at least 6 mins
at least 6 mins is not enough
p.s. do not give me bs that I do not know what at least means :facepalm:

It's fine if you want to say that the minimum should be 3. But to say that it will always be in the 5-6 range is an incorrect conclusion when they say it will come at least every 6 minutes.

[vero95]

It's fine if you want to say that the minimum should be 3. But to say that it will always be in the 5-6 range is an incorrect conclusion when they say it will come at least every 6 minutes.

do not teach me about conclusions :facepalm:
if you set parameters in the specs, no one will try to exceed them for free

[rems]

do not teach me about conclusions :facepalm:
if you set parameters in the specs, no one will try to exceed them for free

You're concluding that saying a train will come at least every 6 minutes is equal to 5-6 minutes. I am saying that it can mean that but can also mean 1, 2, 3 or any other number that is less than 6. Are you saying that I am incorrect?

[BornRuff]

At least 6 minutes does not mean 5-6 minutes.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/at+least


That means that's the max wait time you'll see. It could be 5, it could be 6. It could also be 1 or 2 or 3.4569892

When I take the subway during rush hour, it comes at least every 3 minutes. That does not mean I wait 2-3 minutes every time. Sometimes the train's there already and I don't wait. Sometimes I wait a minute. Some other times I wait the full 3.

Lol, wow. Vero is a nut.

Keep in mind that they said it would be at least every six minutes "regardless of demand" and that headways will vary throughout the line. This means that in practice, they might operate a train every 3 minutes, or 4 minutes, etc etc etc.

[vero95]

You're concluding that saying a train will come at least every 6 minutes is equal to 5-6 minutes. I am saying that it can mean that but can also mean 1, 2, 3 or any other number that is less than 6. Are you saying that I am incorrect?

theoretically not incorrect but rather stupid to hope they will come every 1,2,3 minutes :facepalm:
would you be satisfied if they come every 5-6 minutes at peak times? I would not but according to the plan they can

[vero95]

Lol, wow. Vero is a nut.

Keep in mind that they said it would be at least every six minutes "regardless of demand" and that headways will vary throughout the line. This means that in practice, they might operate a train every 3 minutes, or 4 minutes, etc etc etc.

that means in practice they can come every 5-6mins
if you buy a 3GHz PC, the processor speed is guaranteed to be 3GHz. do you also expect it to be much higher frequency because 3GHz is the minimum guaranteed :facepalm:
do you understand now? that's basic stuff, dude :facepalm:

[BornRuff]

that means in practice they can come every 5-6mins
if you buy a 3GHz PC, the processor speed is guaranteed to be 3GHz. do you also expect it to be much higher frequency because 3GHz is the minimum guaranteed :facepalm:
do you understand now? that's basic stuff, dude :facepalm:

You have a twisted little mind Vero. LRTs are like PC processors?

Regardless:

"The Eglinton Crosstown is anticipated to provide service every 3 to 3 minutes during the peak periods on weekdays and every 6 minutes throughout the remainder of weekdays and on weekends."

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/faq.htm#a14

[king_george]

Are you folks now arguing over what "up to" means now?

Sounds like a typical debate with Vero :lol:

This is turning into another comedic farce here BR.

[vero95]

You have a twisted little mind Vero. LRTs are like PC processors?

Regardless:

"The Eglinton Crosstown is anticipated to provide service every 3 to 3 minutes during the peak periods on weekdays and every 6 minutes throughout the remainder of weekdays and on weekends."

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/faq.htm#a14

call me stupid but I do not know what 3 to 3 means :facepalm:
did you write it? :facepalm:

Edit: anyway at most every 3 mins is still a waste of the tunnel. a subway can travel one after another

[vero95]

Are you folks now arguing over what "up to" means now?

Sounds like a typical debate with Vero :lol:

This is turning into another comedic farce here BR.

looks like you are still on painkillers :facepalm:

[rems]

theoretically not incorrect but rather stupid to hope they will come every 1,2,3 minutes :facepalm:
would you be satisfied if they come every 5-6 minutes at peak times? I would not but according to the plan they can

But is 5-6 minutes what is going to actually happen? You don't know. I don't know. But you're concluding that is what's going to happen. You're making it a certainty. They gave a worst case scenario. Add all the facepalm emoticons you want but it doesn't make your conclusion true.

[BornRuff]

call me stupid but I do not know what 3 to 3 means :facepalm:
did you write it? :facepalm:

Edit: anyway at most every 3 mins is still a waste of the tunnel. a subway can travel one after another

Lol, you still seem intent on declaring what the minimum headway will be without any evidence to back it up.

[king_george]

This message is hidden because vero95 is on your ignore list.

I'm guessing Vero came back with an utterly incredible insult that's sure to cause me real tears. :lol:

Naw, probably another dumb comeback unrelated to anything.

The time for any serious discussion is past Rems. He will never acknowledge you are correct but will now change the subject and post a lot more facepalms. Why bother?

[vero95]

But is 5-6 minutes what is going to actually happen? You don't know. I don't know. But you're concluding that is what's going to happen. You're making it a certainty. They gave a worst case scenario. Add all the facepalm emoticons you want but it doesn't make your conclusion true.

I would not invest billion of dollars hoping that something does not happen if the contract says it likely will happen
to make sure it does not happen, you demand the service to be at least every 3 mins
you determine the maximum service gap and design the system so that it can support it
it looks like you will be happy if that maximum is 6 mins but other people find it laughable

[vero95]

Lol, you still seem intent on declaring what the minimum headway will be without any evidence to back it up.

I use your evidence. you are not able to interpret it :facepalm:

[vero95]

I'm guessing Vero came back with an utterly incredible insult that's sure to cause me real tears. :lol:

Naw, probably another dumb comeback unrelated to anything.

The time for any serious discussion is past Rems. He will never acknowledge you are correct but will now change the subject and post a lot more facepalms. Why bother?

I always find it funny when people put others on ignore list and then are so eager to hear from them :D
it's very immature imo

[BornRuff]

Lol, the mods think I am being too hard on you, so I think we are done here.

[vero95]

Lol, the mods think I am being too hard on you, so I think we are done here.

sorry to hear that but frankly you did not provide any proof that taxpayers' money is not lost on this project and name calling is not an argument
the reality is we do not want streetcars everywhere. they do not make sense everywhere as I proved to you with the eglinton line. sometimes it's better to make smaller steps but right steps
good luck with your trolling on other threads!

[rems]

I would not invest billion of dollars hoping that something does not happen if the contract says it likely will happen
to make sure it does not happen, you demand the service to be at least every 3 mins
you determine the maximum service gap and design the system so that it can support it
it looks like you will be happy if that maximum is 6 mins but other people find it laughable

Again that's fine if that's how you feel. But again, when they said a train will come at least every 6 minutes does not automatically mean 5-6 minutes. That's all I'm saying when I first quoted you.

And maybe every 6 minutes is good enough. Maybe the ridership and capacity is good enough for every 6 minutes. Cuz the bus I take to the subway comes around about every 5 minutes and it could probably come more frequently cuz sometimes it gets full and stops have to be skipped. But that's a bus which has a smaller capacity.

[vero95]

Again that's fine if that's how you feel. But again, when they said a train will come at least every 6 minutes does not automatically mean 5-6 minutes. That's all I'm saying when I first quoted you.

And maybe every 6 minutes is good enough. Maybe the ridership and capacity is good enough for every 6 minutes. Cuz the bus I take to the subway comes around about every 5 minutes and it could probably come more frequently cuz sometimes it gets full and stops have to be skipped. But that's a bus which has a smaller capacity.

what if it's not? :facepalm:
we are not going to spend billions of dollars and dig a tunnel that already has a bottleneck because of your "what if it's OK" :facepalm: digging a tunnel to see a streetcar every 6 mins is not OK :facepalm:
that's so dumb to argue that :facepalm:

[wilsonlam97]

The LRT trains are faster and more efficient than buses. You would need way more buses to move the same number of people, which requires way more staff. Over the long term, staff are the most expensive cost. You are also looking at more interference with intersections since you will need to get more vehicles through.

I'm very impressed with that final line. You are finally kind of getting it. You finally get that these LRTs are the right solution in certain areas, and that one type of transit is not appropriate everywhere.

The areas that LRT has been proposed are all quite similar, and perfect areas for these LRT lines.

This does not justify billions of dollars in spending.

[BornRuff]

This does not justify billions of dollars in spending.

Lol, you are saying that these lines being perfect for these areas doesn't justify spending the money to build them?

[vero95]

Lol, you are saying that these lines being perfect for these areas doesn't justify spending the money to build them?

We just discussed that those streetcars are not suitable for the eglinton line :facepalm:

[aznG]

We just discussed that those streetcars are not suitable for the eglinton line :facepalm:

We have also discussed why LRT is being built in another thread where I stated with facts on timelines and miscellaneous items in regards to their decision and what is best for Toronto right now.

Regurgitating your arguments over and over on this forum does not build Tunnels. Go out there and make your voice heard. I doubt Tunnels will be built past Laird. I have heard that the tender is out from Yonge to Laird already.

What you want and what is going to be built on Eglinton is totally different. Either make your voice heard (per above, not here) or just accept it.

[vero95]

We have also discussed why LRT is being built in another thread where I stated with facts on timelines and miscellaneous items in regards to their decision and what is best for Toronto right now.

Regurgitating your arguments over and over on this forum does not build Tunnels. Go out there and make your voice heard. I doubt Tunnels will be built past Laird. I have heard that the tender is out from Yonge to Laird already.

What you want and what is going to be built on Eglinton is totally different. Either make your voice heard (per above, not here) or just accept it.

where are those facts that streetcars are the answer for all transit problems in Toronto? LOL
as far as I know BRT lines are being built on hwy 7 in Richmond Hill. they do not need streetcars there and it's much cheaper
http://www.metrolinx.com/images/vivabus.jpg
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/york_viva.aspx

you need to accept it that people will criticize stupidity and decisions are revoked

[aznG]

Here you go;

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/subway-clear-choice-loud-scarborough-transit-meeting-lol-1151876/7/#post14409494
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/subway-clear-choice-loud-scarborough-transit-meeting-lol-1151876/11/#post14413062

In regards to BRT, they have space on highway 7. Not enough space on Eglinton, your arguments are way out there.

Again, go visit your councillor if you want your voice heard. I don't mind either but we need transit now, not later. Make a difference out there, sitting behind a computer telling everyone you want Subways is not going anywhere at all.

[vero95]

Here you go;

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/subway-clear-choice-loud-scarborough-transit-meeting-lol-1151876/7/#post14409494
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/subway-clear-choice-loud-scarborough-transit-meeting-lol-1151876/11/#post14413062

In regards to BRT, they have space on highway 7. Not enough space on Eglinton, your arguments are way out there.

Again, go visit your councillor if you want your voice heard. I don't mind either but we need transit now, not later. Make a difference out there, sitting behind a computer telling everyone you want Subways is not going anywhere at all.

you give some links to your thoughts as a proof of what? LOL just because they already bought streetcars it does not mean that the decision was rational :facepalm:
it's a public forum, dude. you can't be telling people to stop posting because you do not like what they are saying :facepalm:
you want to make a difference? stop constructing those streetcars :D

[aznG]

It is a public forum, why do you think I'm posting. Months of regurgitation means you want something changed, but telling everyone on a monthly basis of what You want isn't going anywhere.

The links are what you ask for... LOL.

[vero95]

It is a public forum, why do you think I'm posting. Months of regurgitation means you want something changed, but telling everyone on a monthly basis of what You want isn't going anywhere.

The links are what you ask for... LOL.

So you can post but I shouldn't :facepalm:
I did not ask you what you think but for a proof that streetcars are the answer for all transit problems in Toronto.
There is a solution for you problem: stop useless discussions by reviving old threads :facepalm:

[aznG]

I didnt know posts from Jan 27th (last post until today) was considered old. I can revive what I want, its a public forum right?

Here is the answer to your question, LRVs has been bought and will be used. No LRV's = more traffic congestion. Case closed, it will be used on Eglinton.

You should really just talk with Rob Ford and talk him into demolishing houses for BRT in Scarborough. Show him the video on Youtube and how it can be done. Be extra informative like you are now. If anyone objects just facepalm, that'll show them.

LOL...

[vero95]

I didnt know posts from Jan 27th (last post until today) was considered old. I can revive what I want, its a public forum right?

Here is the answer to your question, LRVs has been bought and will be used. No LRV's = more traffic congestion. Case closed, it will be used on Eglinton.

You should really just talk with Rob Ford and talk him into demolishing houses for BRT in Scarborough. Show him the video on Youtube and how it can be done. Be extra informative like you are now. If anyone objects just facepalm, that'll show them.

LOL...

I know they were bought but it does not mean that was the right decision
Feel free to revive an old thread if you have something to say but you do not and so you are wasting people's time :facepalm:

[aznG]

I've never said whether it's right or wrong, we have to work with what we have. These decisions and signed contracts were made a long time ago, to breach it means wasted money on lawyers and time. Rob Ford promised what could not be delivered during his campaign and people bought it.

What is a waste of time is regurgitating how Eglinton needs subways for months when LRVs have been bought, designs / schedules drafted, Tunnel Boring Machines paid for, Metrolinx backing LRT and construction contracts already awarded or in the tender process.

We should be more vocal and discussing the DT Relief Line and STC RT replacement and whether it should be Subways or LRT. I can see STC RT replacement being Subways due to overload on that line and construction cost being extremely low compared to the LRT alternative, possibly due to ground water level, utilities and existing infrastructure.

[vero95]

I've never said whether it's right or wrong, we have to work with what we have. These decisions and signed contracts were made a long time ago, to breach it means wasted money on lawyers and time. Rob Ford promised what could not be delivered during his campaign and people bought it.

What is a waste of time is regurgitating how Eglinton needs subways for months when LRVs have been bought, designs / schedules drafted, Tunnel Boring Machines paid for, Metrolinx backing LRT and construction contracts already awarded or in the tender process.

We should be more vocal and discussing the DT Relief Line and STC RT replacement and whether it should be Subways or LRT. I can see STC RT replacement being Subways due to overload on that line and construction cost being extremely low compared to the LRT alternative, possibly due to ground water level, utilities and existing infrastructure.

eglinton subway was discussed for over 3 decades and the project started in 94 by Rae and was stopped in 95 when Harris took power. with Dalton gone who knows what will happen next

To those assembled at the corner of Black Creek Drive and Eglinton Avenue, August 25, 1994 was a great day for the future of Toronto transit. A group of shovel-wielding dignitaries led by Ontario Premier Bob Rae broke ground on the Eglinton subway, a project that had been discussed for nearly three decades. Rae, whose York South riding would be served by the 4.7-kilometre, five-station line running from Black Creek Drive to Allen Road, touted the thousands of construction jobs required to build the subway before its planned opening in 2001. City of York officials were all smiles, especially Mayor Fergy Brown, who told reporters he was “busting my buttons with pride” that the municipality finally had its own rapid-transit system. If all went well, the future promised an extension from Black Creek to Pearson International Airport.
http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/retro-t-o-the-eglinton-subway-we-almost-had/

funny thing you want me to give up pointing out that streetcars on eglinton are a stupid idea and a waste of money because contracts are already signed but have no problem with breaking those contracts on SRT :facepalm:
feel free to be more vocal but stop telling people what they should be doing especially that you contradict yourself :facepalm:

[BornRuff]

eglinton subway was discussed for over 3 decades and the project started in 94 by Rae and was stopped in 95 when Harris took power. with Dalton gone who knows what will happen next

http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/retro-t-o-the-eglinton-subway-we-almost-had/

funny thing you want me to give up pointing out that streetcars on eglinton are a stupid idea and a waste of money because contracts are already signed but have no problem with breaking those contracts on SRT :facepalm:
feel free to be more vocal but stop telling people what they should be doing especially that you contradict yourself :facepalm:

Your example with the Eglinton Subway just shows that happens when people can't stop bickering over what should be done. Nothing.

It was a waste of money to cancel project the way they did in the 90's, it was a waste when Ford "cancelled" most of the Transit City lines 2 years ago, and it will be a huge waste if they change course on the Eglinton Line at this point.

Not even Ford wants to cancel the Eglinton Crosstown line. The choice for transit on Eglinton has been made. We should all move on and focus on more pressing transit issues.

[aznG]

eglinton subway was discussed for over 3 decades and the project started in 94 by Rae and was stopped in 95 when Harris took power. with Dalton gone who knows what will happen next

http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/retro-t-o-the-eglinton-subway-we-almost-had/

funny thing you want me to give up pointing out that streetcars on eglinton are a stupid idea and a waste of money because contracts are already signed but have no problem with breaking those contracts on SRT :facepalm:
feel free to be more vocal but stop telling people what they should be doing especially that you contradict yourself :facepalm:

I've never said that Toronto has never broken any contracts. But I can assure you that each big construction contract that has been broken thus far kept Eglinton from getting Subways due to money going down the drain in legal fees and compensation. What you listed above is one of the prime examples.

That was a huge mistake and if that is what you want on the Eglinton line to break multiple contracts just because You want Subways, that really LOL. PCL was the contractor for that work that was buried and you know how much they got compensated for the work that was never complete? The entire contract value plus legal fees. Think less than 20% completion.

Because of that incident, the TBMs have to go through that area not knowing what's there. It could be additional cost now in 2013 just to go through that area and may cause further delays and issues.

While you were hiding behind a computer raging on Off-Topic on how Eglinton needed subways, the things listed above happened; LRVs have been bought (taken delivery and testing), designs / schedules drafted, Tunnel Boring Machines paid for, Metrolinx backing LRT and construction contracts already awarded or in the tender process. That's how long you've been regurgitating a dead issue. It's going ahead, we're getting LRVs and transit... with or without you!

[vero95]

I've never said that Toronto has never broken any contracts. But I can assure you that each big construction contract that has been broken thus far kept Eglinton from getting Subways due to money going down the drain in legal fees and compensation. What you listed above is one of the prime examples.

That was a huge mistake and if that is what you want on the Eglinton line to break multiple contracts just because You want Subways, that really LOL. PCL was the contractor for that work that was buried and you know how much they got compensated for the work that was never complete? The entire contract value plus legal fees. Think less than 20% completion.

Because of that incident, the TBMs have to go through that area not knowing what's there. It could be additional cost now in 2013 just to go through that area and may cause further delays and issues.

While you were hiding behind a computer raging on Off-Topic on how Eglinton needed subways, the things listed above happened; LRVs have been bought (taken delivery and testing), designs / schedules drafted, Tunnel Boring Machines paid for, Metrolinx backing LRT and construction contracts already awarded or in the tender process. That's how long you've been regurgitating a dead issue. It's going ahead, we're getting LRVs and transit... with or without you!

thanks for the heads up on the current progress. is the SRT replacements not going forward because You said it can be a subway :facepalm:

[vero95]

flashy, are you lurking?

[flashy_mcflash]

Yes. Though, technically, now I'm not.

[king_george]

Flashy, It's the same old merry-go-round with a new participant. Let this thread die already :lol:

[flashy_mcflash]

Yeah, not really interested in the same round-and-round with BrickWall95 ;) When he's regurgitating already-disproven nonsense from three transit threads ago, it's time to hang it up.

[vero95]

Yeah, not really interested in the same round-and-round with BrickWall95 ;) When he's regurgitating already-disproven nonsense from three transit threads ago, it's time to hang it up.

the nonsense of it you will be able to realize when you wait for a streetcar 5-6 mins at peak times :D

[BornRuff]

Yeah, not really interested in the same round-and-round with BrickWall95 ;) When he's regurgitating already-disproven nonsense from three transit threads ago, it's time to hang it up.

Case in point.....


the nonsense of it you will be able to realize when you wait for a streetcar 5-6 mins at peak times :D

[vero95]

Case in point.....

I thought you were done with making points after you've embarrassed yourself few times :D

[vero95]

Flashy, It's the same old merry-go-round with a new participant. Let this thread die already :lol:

talking about merry-go-round

Asked this week about her anti-LRT comments in 2009, Stintz said she had a view that LRTs were streetcars.

“I now have a better understanding of the technology and a better appreciation of how important it is to spend scarce resources wisely to improve transit across the city,” Stintz wrote in an e-mail response.
http://blogs.canoe.ca/goodgravy/tag/karen-stintz/

I wonder how is that possible that such incompetent individual became a head of TTC if she did not know the difference between an LRT and a streetcar :facepalm:
btw it's coming from someone who BornRuff claimed is more focused on reason :D :facepalm:

[vero95]

Yes. Though, technically, now I'm not.

Yup. Technically you started trolling

[time space]

I wonder how is that possible that such incompetent individual became a head of TTC if she did not know the difference between an LRT and a streetcar :facepalm:

Streetcars are just one form of LRT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail#Streetcars_or_trams).

[vero95]

Streetcars are just one form of LRT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail#Streetcars_or_trams).

I would expect that the head of TTC should know that. what those "politicians" were voting for if they are incompetent? how can you let them making decisions? :facepalm:

[time space]

I would expect that the head of TTC should know that. what those "politicians" were voting for if they are incompetent? how can you let them making decisions? :facepalm:

Then why did you say there was a difference?

[vero95]

Then why did you say there was a difference?

sure there is a difference between a streetcar and an LRT but what we are going to get will practically be the same: a slightly faster streetcar. I already explained that multiple times. just because they call it an LRT it does not mean they understand what they are getting

[aznG]

sure there is a difference between a streetcar and an LRT but what we are going to get will practically be the same: a slightly faster streetcar. I already explained that multiple times. just because they call it an LRT it does not mean they understand what they are getting

I can't wait until we get the LRVs on Eglinton!!

[vero95]

I can't wait until we get the LRVs on Eglinton!!

glad you are OK with waiting because you will have to get used to it since the service will not be too frequent

[BornRuff]

If anyone is interested, public workshops are coming up soon.

http://www.toronto.ca/eglinton/pdf/egconnects_public_workshops_feb13.pdf

[aznG]

glad you are OK with waiting because you will have to get used to it since the service will not be too frequent

Im glad I dont need to pay more taxes to fund breach of multiple contracts and waiting for a new tunnel plan to be drafted from Laird to STC with a possible 6-10yr wait. Love the existing plan, finally we're getting transit!

[qster]

Toronto would have had viable transit had the ill-advised Ontario Teachers advised the lemmings in Ontario to oust Rae and bring Harris.
It was only money (debt the Liberals squandered)... and the Rae was going to use more to expand infrastructure (transit that was pretty much non-existent).

Toronto would have had this http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/retro-t-o-the-eglinton-subway-we-almost-had/ for Eglinton West route, which would eventually go out to the Airport and have a link to Kipling (Bloor line was supposed to extend to Square One) station.

The current York U expansion would have been done and gone well into the Vaughan and same for the Yonge line going up to Richmond Hill.
The current Sheppard line (wasted money that could have gone to Eglinton, but Lastman fought for it and wasted $) would have linked to Scarborough Town.

[qster]

If anyone is interested, public workshops are coming up soon.

http://www.toronto.ca/eglinton/pdf/egconnects_public_workshops_feb13.pdf

No wonder.. I was trying to figure out what all the digging was for at Eglinton and Black Creek area.

[BornRuff]

Toronto would have had viable transit had the ill-advised Ontario Teachers advised the lemmings in Ontario to oust Rae and bring Harris.
It was only money (debt the Liberals squandered)... and the Rae was going to use more to expand infrastructure (transit that was pretty much non-existent).

Toronto would have had this http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/retro-t-o-the-eglinton-subway-we-almost-had/ for Eglinton West route, which would eventually go out to the Airport and have a link to Kipling (Bloor line was supposed to extend to Square One) station.

The current York U expansion would have been done and gone well into the Vaughan and same for the Yonge line going up to Richmond Hill.
The current Sheppard line (wasted money that could have gone to Eglinton, but Lastman fought for it and wasted $) would have linked to Scarborough Town.

It certainly would have been nice if they had at least gone through with the project they had already started. Overall though, I think we really need to focus on improving capacity within the city of Toronto, especially downtown, before we continue building further outwards.

[aznG]

Toronto would have had viable transit had the ill-advised Ontario Teachers advised the lemmings in Ontario to oust Rae and bring Harris.
It was only money (debt the Liberals squandered)... and the Rae was going to use more to expand infrastructure (transit that was pretty much non-existent).

Toronto would have had this http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/retro-t-o-the-eglinton-subway-we-almost-had/ for Eglinton West route, which would eventually go out to the Airport and have a link to Kipling (Bloor line was supposed to extend to Square One) station.

The current York U expansion would have been done and gone well into the Vaughan and same for the Yonge line going up to Richmond Hill.
The current Sheppard line (wasted money that could have gone to Eglinton, but Lastman fought for it and wasted $) would have linked to Scarborough Town.

Rumor was that Lastman owned some of the land on Sheppard where the subway was gonna be built. Not sure how true that is.

[vero95]

Im glad I dont need to pay more taxes to fund breach of multiple contracts and waiting for a new tunnel plan to be drafted from Laird to STC with a possible 6-10yr wait. Love the existing plan, finally we're getting transit!

I am pretty sure you will have to pay more taxes for converting those streetcars to subways in the near future
You just do not see that

[BornRuff]

Rumor was that Lastman owned some of the land on Sheppard where the subway was gonna be built. Not sure how true that is.

Owning land or not, it was clear that Lastman was very focused on developing North York.

[qster]

Owning land or not, it was clear that Lastman was very focused on developing North York.

He was the current mayor of North York at the time and wanted to continue his reign as Mayor and went to battle with Harris over getting the Sheppard line built.
The Eglinton line was tunnelled to Eglinton West station...only to be backfilled by Harris.

[aznG]

I am pretty sure you will have to pay more taxes for converting those streetcars to subways in the near future
You just do not see that

Doubt that. Nothing else is scheduled on Eglinton for the next 50 yrs. Gonna have to live with it.

[jackiechan511]

Scarborough can get a subway if (and only if) they......
1) offer to pay for the construction, maintenence and operation. Even York Region is offering to pay for the extension to Vaughan Centre (even though current density there doesn't warrant subways)
2) Rid the NIMBYism and allow development that would bring in ridership numbers like high-rise residential, offices, post-secondary institutions, hospitals, shopping centres etc.......

If residents in Scarborough wont subscribe to the two points above, then that part of Toronto is literally hopeless of making any progress.

[BornRuff]

Scarborough can get a subway if (and only if) they......
1) offer to pay for the construction, maintenence and operation. Even York Region is offering to pay for the extension to Vaughan Centre (even though current density there doesn't warrant subways)
2) Rid the NIMBYism and allow development that would bring in ridership numbers like high-rise residential, offices, post-secondary institutions, hospitals, shopping centres etc.......

If residents in Scarborough wont subscribe to the two points above, then that part of Toronto is literally hopeless of making any progress.

I don't think there is any mechanism to get Scarborough residents to pay a larger portion of a subway project than other residents of Toronto. York Region is a separate entity, Scarborough is not.

Honestly though, what they are getting is pretty much what the area can support. They are a long way away from being able to support a subway.

[vero95]

Scarborough can get a subway if (and only if) they......
1) offer to pay for the construction, maintenence and operation. Even York Region is offering to pay for the extension to Vaughan Centre (even though current density there doesn't warrant subways)
2) Rid the NIMBYism and allow development that would bring in ridership numbers like high-rise residential, offices, post-secondary institutions, hospitals, shopping centres etc.......

If residents in Scarborough wont subscribe to the two points above, then that part of Toronto is literally hopeless of making any progress.

if they can afford, I do not see why not. Mississauga is paying for its public transit expansions along Hurontario
Toronto should be paying for theirs too. if they want to waste money, it's their money to waste

[vero95]

Doubt that. Nothing else is scheduled on Eglinton for the next 50 yrs. Gonna have to live with it.

I doubt traffic issues will be left unaddressed

[BornRuff]

if they can afford, I do not see why not. Mississauga is paying for its public transit expansions along Hurontario
Toronto should be paying for theirs too. if they want to waste money, it's their money to waste

They are looking to the province and the feds for money just like Toronto did.

[vero95]

They are looking to the province and the feds for money just like Toronto did.

let me know if what I said is wrong

[BornRuff]

let me know if what I said is wrong

It is wrong because they are not paying for it. They are asking the province and the feds to pay for it.

[aznG]

I doubt traffic issues will be left unaddressed

Andy Byford and others have already said, the DT Relief Line will be done in the next 15 years (high priority) and ones coming up are the Finch LRT, Sheppard East and STC RT Replacement. By the time everything is done, 15-20 years will pass and thats not including the Yonge extension to Richmond Hill. You'll have to wait at the very least 20 yrs, argue then LOL... LRTs on Eglinton, can't wait!

[BornRuff]

Andy Byford and others have already said, the DT Relief Line will be done in the next 15 years (high priority) and ones coming up are the Finch LRT, Sheppard East and STC RT Replacement. By the time everything is done, 15-20 years will pass and thats not including the Yonge extension to Richmond Hill. You'll have to wait at the very least 20 yrs, argue then LOL... LRTs on Eglinton, can't wait!

Who knows if even those projects will get done. It seems likely that we will have a PC government in Queens Park soon, and if history is any indication, if they make any attempts to "change direction", it will really just lead to absolutely nothing getting done.

I would LOVE to see all of these project completed soon, but 15-20 years sounds optimistic for a DTRL. Right now looking at 10+ years just to see all the projects that secured funding 5 years ago completed. The DTRL is a much larger project, and we don't have a clue where the finding will come from yet.

[vero95]

Andy Byford and others have already said, the DT Relief Line will be done in the next 15 years (high priority) and ones coming up are the Finch LRT, Sheppard East and STC RT Replacement. By the time everything is done, 15-20 years will pass and thats not including the Yonge extension to Richmond Hill. You'll have to wait at the very least 20 yrs, argue then LOL... LRTs on Eglinton, can't wait!

And why do you think that those streetcars would be any relief for the traffic?
People will be quite pi$$ed off if you spend billions of dollars and in addition ask them to pay tolls if the congestions become even bigger, no?

[vero95]

Who knows if even those projects will get done. It seems likely that we will have a PC government in Queens Park soon, and if history is any indication, if they make any attempts to "change direction", it will really just lead to absolutely nothing getting done.

I would LOVE to see all of these project completed soon, but 15-20 years sounds optimistic for a DTRL. Right now looking at 10+ years just to see all the projects that secured funding 5 years ago completed. The DTRL is a much larger project, and we don't have a clue where the finding will come from yet.

You are confused. Eglinton was always supposed to be a subway. Putting streetcars there was a change in direction. Cons would just correct an absurd project

[vero95]

It is wrong because they are not paying for it. They are asking the province and the feds to pay for it.

Oh, I am wrong because you say so :facepalm:
Dude, if you say I am wrong at least have some decency to back it up with some evidence :facepalm:


McCuaig made it clear in November that municipalities will have to pay their share of future transit projects under the provincial plan. He responded more vaguely to McCallion’s hardline stance Wednesday.


http://www.mississauga.com/news/article/1570165--if-you-pay-for-toronto-s-lrt-you-pay-for-ours-mayor-tells-province

Saying that the province is paying for Mississauga transit because Hazel asked for it recently is like saying that Toronto is getting subways because Rob asked for it

In summary, your claim that I am wrong is quite idiotic, isn't it?

[gizmo8]

days like this a subway would have been 1000x better than surface transit.Yes its more expensive but our city is growing outwards quickly,by the time the subway is completed areas where there is little density will be full of new projects and 100,000 more people.The LRT supporters are short sighted about the future of GTA.

[king_george]

This picture is the way LRTs should be done. This is from a colleagues trip to Paris France last summer.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg135/gmanontario/Paristrams.jpg

You can even see the special infrastructure needed to do short turns. :lol: It has it's own right of way, is landscaped and is actually quite nice to look at. Too bad there is no good way of getting rid of the overhead wires, but maybe some day there will be. At least these wires only go over the ROW.

Of course if this was Toronto the green space would become a sea of discarded Tim Horton cups, cigarette butts, empty water bottles and free newspapers.

[vero95]

This picture is the way LRTs should be done. This is from a colleagues trip to Paris France last summer.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg135/gmanontario/Paristrams.jpg

You can even see the special infrastructure needed to do short turns. :lol: It has it's own right of way, is landscaped and is actually quite nice to look at. Too bad there is no good way of getting rid of the overhead wires, but maybe some day there will be. At least these wires only go over the ROW.

Of course if this was Toronto the green space would become a sea of discarded Tim Horton cups, cigarette butts, empty water bottles and free newspapers.

amazing, isn't it, especially those trains are just an addition to the subway network that is one of the biggest in the world
http://paristrain.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/planmetroscreen1.jpg

http://subway.umka.org/maps/paris.gif



but that's not all. they just revealed plans for an automated metro circling around the subs



http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/serving-greater-paris.jpg
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/03/18/paris-announces-biggest-rapid-transit-investment-since-rer/

[BornRuff]

Oh, I am wrong because you say so :facepalm:
Dude, if you say I am wrong at least have some decency to back it up with some evidence :facepalm:

http://www.mississauga.com/news/article/1570165--if-you-pay-for-toronto-s-lrt-you-pay-for-ours-mayor-tells-province

Saying that the province is paying for Mississauga transit because Hazel asked for it recently is like saying that Toronto is getting subways because Rob asked for it

In summary, your claim that I am wrong is quite idiotic, isn't it?

Even the article you linked to suggest that they only might pay 1/3rd of the costs of the new LRT plan. If that ends up being the case, it is still far from paying for the LRT themselves.

Their official plan to build the LRT is to figure out how much it will cost and then go ask the province and feds for money. If they don't get money from them, the LRT wont be built.

[BornRuff]

This picture is the way LRTs should be done. This is from a colleagues trip to Paris France last summer.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg135/gmanontario/Paristrams.jpg

You can even see the special infrastructure needed to do short turns. :lol: It has it's own right of way, is landscaped and is actually quite nice to look at. Too bad there is no good way of getting rid of the overhead wires, but maybe some day there will be. At least these wires only go over the ROW.

Of course if this was Toronto the green space would become a sea of discarded Tim Horton cups, cigarette butts, empty water bottles and free newspapers.

In theory, this could be done with the Toronto projects. Instead of putting the ROW in the middle of the road, they would just put it to the side and landscape it. I don't know if it would fundamentally change how the system operates though, since it still needs to cross traffic at every intersection.

[king_george]

In theory, this could be done with the Toronto projects. Instead of putting the ROW in the middle of the road, they would just put it to the side and landscape it. I don't know if it would fundamentally change how the system operates though, since it still needs to cross traffic at every intersection.

According to the guy who took the trip, the LRTs he saw have traffic precedence all the time so that whenever one approaches an intersection or crosses a road, the transit light turns green and the traffic lights turn red all around. That speeds things up considerably I think. That'll never work here IMO.

I have no idea of the terrain they are going to use but switching the ROW to one side might be too much to ask in Torontos transit projects. That would mean a whole heap of extra expenses relocating the existing traffic lanes. Let's take what we have been given and make sure that works before getting fancy.

[BornRuff]

According to the guy who took the trip, the LRTs he saw have traffic precedence all the time so that whenever one approaches an intersection or crosses a road, the transit light turns green and the traffic lights turn red all around. That speeds things up considerably I think. That'll never work here IMO.

I have no idea of the terrain they are going to use but switching the ROW to one side might be too much to ask in Torontos transit projects. That would mean a whole heap of extra expenses relocating the existing traffic lanes. Let's take what we have been given and make sure that works before getting fancy.

I wasn't really advocating for it. I was essentially saying that it could be done here, but I don't see much point.

They have said that they will have priority signalling for the trains. Exactly how that will work, I don't know.

[king_george]

I wasn't really advocating for it. I was essentially saying that it could be done here, but I don't see much point.

They have said that they will have priority signalling for the trains. Exactly how that will work, I don't know.

Yep I figured that.

I know how the priority is supposed to work, It'll be similar to what EMS vehicles use. A flashing strobe or perhaps an RFID signal (hasn't been decided yet) that activates a priority situation when the vehicle approaches. The thing they need to watch for is that when the vehicle stops for any length of time in range of a signal, you want the signals back to normal instead of leaving it on priority until the vehicle leaves.

I am cautiously hopeful that the major bugs will be worked out BEFORE the LRTs roll out, but I'm certainly not confident judging from past projects. Although without the TTC mismanagement and complete lunacy by the Toronto council not being involved, the chances are much higher of success :lol:

Want to see a major failure? Let the city (mis)managers and the TTC lunkheads run the transit projects. :(

[vero95]

Even the article you linked to suggest that they only might pay 1/3rd of the costs of the new LRT plan. If that ends up being the case, it is still far from paying for the LRT themselves.

I see. it's a game: might means is. what else is happening in this game of yours :facepalm:
is Toronto getting subways? :D

btw, if you read the article that might was coming from Hazel because she is frustrated she has to find $500mil while Toronto got covered the whole thing


In an interview with the Star in October, McCallion questioned whether Mississauga could afford a third of the estimated cost — about $500 million — in a typical three-government arrangement.
By the end of November, she was suggesting the province might shoulder the whole thing.

do you understand that the province is scheduled to pay 1/3 of the costs? does that mean that the province is paying for the whole thing that you claimed, troll? :facepalm:





Their official plan to build the LRT is to figure out how much it will cost and then go ask the province and feds for money. If they don't get money from them, the LRT wont be built.

nice analysis. is that yours? :facepalm:

[BornRuff]

I see. it's a game: might means is. what else is happening in this game of yours :facepalm:
is Toronto getting subways? :D

btw, if you read the article that might was coming from Hazel because she is frustrated she has to find $500mil while Toronto got covered the whole thing


do you understand that the province is scheduled to pay 1/3 of the costs? does that mean that the province is paying for the whole thing that you claimed, troll? :facepalm:






nice analysis. is that yours? :facepalm:

Lets not turn this into another ***** fest.

Your point was simple, that Mississauga is paying for their LRT line. The facts are that funding simply has not been finalized.

This is what it says on their project website.


Funding discussions will continue through this stage of the project as the Business Case and implementation costs are determined. Metrolinx has identified the Hurontario-Main LRT as a priority project, and funding will be sought from all levels of government once the preliminary costs have been determined.​

http://lrt-mississauga.brampton.ca/EN/Faqs/Pages/Welcome.aspx

If you think that sounds like they are paying for it themselves, I guess that is your opinion.

[vero95]

Lets not turn this into another ***** fest.

Your point was simple, that Mississauga is paying for their LRT line. The facts are that funding simply has not been finalized.

This is what it says on their project website.



http://lrt-mississauga.brampton.ca/EN/Faqs/Pages/Welcome.aspx

If you think that sounds like they are paying for it themselves, I guess that is your opinion.

next time you say I am wrong show some evidence :facepalm:
I am not discussing anything with you. I am just telling you that you are wrong and a troll :facepalm:
... and contrary to you I provided evidence that Mississauga is still scheduled to pay one third of the project and it has been like that. recently Hazel asked the province to cover all the costs
and here is what you claimed:

It is wrong because they are not paying for it. They are asking the province and the feds to pay for it.
so I am asking again: where did you find it that they are not paying for that? :facepalm:

in the link you provided, where does it say exactly that they are not paying for it :facepalm:

if you do not want to turn this into another ***** fest, stop telling people they are wrong and then making false statements you can't back up with facts :facepalm:
if you are wrong, at least have some decency to stop trolling on this thread ;)

[BornRuff]

next time you say I am wrong show some evidence :facepalm:
I am not discussing anything with you. I am just telling you that you are wrong and a troll :facepalm:
... and contrary to you I provided evidence that Mississauga is still scheduled to pay one third of the project and it has been like that. recently Hazel asked the province to cover all the costs
and here is what you claimed:

so I am asking again: where did you find it that they are not paying for that? :facepalm:

in the link you provided, where does it say exactly that they are not paying for it :facepalm:

if you do not want to turn this into another ***** fest, stop telling people they are wrong and then making false statements you can't back up with facts :facepalm:
if you are wrong, at least have some decency to stop trolling on this thread ;)

Is the official project website not proof enough for you?

[vero95]

Is the official project website not proof enough for you?

show me exactly why you think it's a proof of what you were saying when you were accusing me of being wrong

It is wrong because they are not paying for it. They are asking the province and the feds to pay for it.

and we'll start from there
for now let me analyze what you wrote. you claim they are not paying for it because they are asking the province to pay for it. I am sorry but that's not a proof they are not paying for it :facepalm:
I am afraid you need to find something more when you tell people they are wrong :facepalm:
find some proof that they are not paying for it and then come back ;)

[aznG]

And why do you think that those streetcars would be any relief for the traffic?
People will be quite pi$$ed off if you spend billions of dollars and in addition ask them to pay tolls if the congestions become even bigger, no?

Tolls or some form of income generating revenue will be implemented eventually to support Toronto whether it's transit or other pressing issues. Whether it's 20 years or 500 years who knows. I rather pay tolls in 20-500 years than to pay tolls now for multiple breach of contracts and possible cancellation of other transit projects in the works. Good thing we paid for the LRVs already!

PS- It only seems like you're pissed off in this thread, no one else is...

[vero95]

Tolls or some form of income generating revenue will be implemented eventually to support Toronto whether it's transit or other pressing issues. Whether it's 20 years or 500 years who knows. I rather pay tolls in 20-500 years than to pay tolls now for multiple breach of contracts and possible cancellation of other transit projects in the works. Good thing we paid for the LRVs already!

PS- It only seems like you're pissed off in this thread, no one else is...

you mean all three of you? LOL
if you believe the power is in numbers, then look what happened to mortgage backed securities :D
flashy already claimed that. read my sig

[BornRuff]

next time you say I am wrong show some evidence :facepalm:
I am not discussing anything with you. I am just telling you that you are wrong and a troll :facepalm:
... and contrary to you I provided evidence that Mississauga is still scheduled to pay one third of the project and it has been like that. recently Hazel asked the province to cover all the costs
and here is what you claimed:

so I am asking again: where did you find it that they are not paying for that? :facepalm:

in the link you provided, where does it say exactly that they are not paying for it :facepalm:

if you do not want to turn this into another ***** fest, stop telling people they are wrong and then making false statements you can't back up with facts :facepalm:
if you are wrong, at least have some decency to stop trolling on this thread ;)

Again, I will post the exact words from the project website.

This is what it says on their project website.


Funding discussions will continue through this stage of the project as the Business Case and implementation costs are determined. Metrolinx has identified the Hurontario-Main LRT as a priority project, and funding will be sought from all levels of government once the preliminary costs have been determined.​

http://lrt-mississauga.brampton.ca/EN/Faqs/Pages/Welcome.aspx

If Mississauga is planning on paying for it themselves, they have not told anyone about that yet. As it stands, there is no set funding for the project.

[vero95]

Again, I will post the exact words from the project website.

This is what it says on their project website.



http://lrt-mississauga.brampton.ca/EN/Faqs/Pages/Welcome.aspx

If Mississauga is planning on paying for it themselves, they have not told anyone about that yet. As it stands, there is no set funding for the project.

It's not that they are planning to pay for it themselves. There has been an agreement that they will pay one third of this project since the project started. Recently Hazel started asking the province to cover her part as well since Toronto is paying nothing. That, however, does not mean that the decision has been changed.

Here , read this again what's already posted. Read the whole article



McCuaig made it clear in November that municipalities will have to pay their share of future transit projects under the provincial plan. He responded more vaguely to McCallion’s hardline stance Wednesday.


http://www.mississauga.com/news/article/1570165--if-you-pay-for-toronto-s-lrt-you-pay-for-ours-mayor-tells-province


Repeating something wrong will not make it right. You have to learn that
I asked you to point where does it say they are not paying for it that you claimed
Come back when you find it

[BornRuff]

It's not that they are planning to pay for it themselves. That has bee an agreement that they will pay one third of this project since the project started. Recently Hazel started asking the province to cover her part as well since Toronto is paying nothing. That, however, does not mean that the decision has been changed

Repeating something wrong will not make it right
I asked you to point where does it say they are not paying for it that you claimed
Come back when you find it

The fact is that no funding has actually been set for this project, so it is a waste of time to argue over hypothetical specifics.

Even if they don't get what they want and end up paying up to 1/3rd of the cost, if you think that hypothetically paying 1/3rd of the costs makes sense in the context of the post below, we obviously have a difference of opinion, and as history shows, we wont come to an agreement. Don't expect any more responses on this asinine line of discussion.


if they can afford, I do not see why not. Mississauga is paying for its public transit expansions along Hurontario
Toronto should be paying for theirs too. if they want to waste money, it's their money to waste

[BornRuff]

Yep I figured that.

I know how the priority is supposed to work, It'll be similar to what EMS vehicles use. A flashing strobe or perhaps an RFID signal (hasn't been decided yet) that activates a priority situation when the vehicle approaches. The thing they need to watch for is that when the vehicle stops for any length of time in range of a signal, you want the signals back to normal instead of leaving it on priority until the vehicle leaves.

I am cautiously hopeful that the major bugs will be worked out BEFORE the LRTs roll out, but I'm certainly not confident judging from past projects. Although without the TTC mismanagement and complete lunacy by the Toronto council not being involved, the chances are much higher of success :lol:

Want to see a major failure? Let the city (mis)managers and the TTC lunkheads run the transit projects. :(

How much does the "priority" setting differ from what you described in France?

[vero95]

The fact is that no funding has actually been set for this project, so it is a waste of time to argue over hypothetical specifics.

Even if they don't get what they want and end up paying up to 1/3rd of the cost, if you think that hypothetically paying 1/3rd of the costs makes sense in the context of the post below, we obviously have a difference of opinion, and as history shows, we wont come to an agreement. Don't expect any more responses on this asinine line of discussion.

But you claimed the province will pay for it so it contradicts with what you are saying now that there is no funding set
If Mississauge goes of the hook Hamilton will be next to ask for the full cover
I agree that what you claimed is asinine and am fine with ending it like that unless you find some proof for what you claimed

[king_george]

How much does the "priority" setting differ from what you described in France?

That I don't know. The handout I got from the Paris system doesn't go into those details.

I would assume though that it has to be something similar. There are only so many ways you can set priority signals.

[BornRuff]

That I don't know. The handout I got from the Paris system doesn't go into those details.

I would assume though that it has to be something similar. There are only so many ways you can set priority signals.

I wish that after all this time, we could just see one of these projects in action already.

[vero95]

I wish that after all this time, we could just see one of these projects in action already.

Traffic is going to move from Eglinton to somewhere else
I am not looking forward to even more congestions
I am against any solutions that do not get rid of traffic but intensify it instead

[BornRuff]

Traffic is going to move from Eglinton to somewhere else
I am not looking forward to even more congestions
I am against any solutions that do not get rid of traffic but intensify it instead

Reread one of the 20 threads on this issue to see all the arguments around these points fleshed out about 1000x. Lets not bump this thread again unless there is something at least remotely new to discuss.

[vero95]

Reread one of the 20 threads on this issue to see all the arguments around these points fleshed out about 1000x. Lets not bump this thread again unless there is something at least remotely new to discuss.

I just summarized what has been discussed, no?

[aznG]

you mean all three of you? LOL
if you believe the power is in numbers, then look what happened to mortgage backed securities :D
flashy already claimed that. read my sig

I mean everyone thats posted in this thread.

[king_george]

I wish that after all this time, we could just see one of these projects in action already.

Me too. It's time the powers that be moved forward rather than engage in petty turf wars as they have in the past.

[vero95]

I mean everyone thats posted in this thread.

you have to define what you mean by everyone. do you include gizmo8 and others who are against streetcars as well? :facepalm:

days like this a subway would have been 1000x better than surface transit.Yes its more expensive but our city is growing outwards quickly,by the time the subway is completed areas where there is little density will be full of new projects and 100,000 more people.The LRT supporters are short sighted about the future of GTA.

[vero95]

Me too. It's time the powers that be moved backward rather than engage in petty turf wars as they have in the past.

fixed it for you

[aznG]

you have to define what you mean by everyone. do you include gizmo8 and others who are against streetcars as well? :facepalm:

No, gizmo8 actually sounds like a voice of reason. You sound angry and argumentative with every post.

[vero95]

No, gizmo8 actually sounds like a voice of reason. You sound angry and argumentative with every post.

What does it have to do with your claim that I am the only one on this forum who does not want those streetcars?
If you were capable of expressing yourself so that other people would not have to correct you, I would not appear to you as argumentative and angry ;)
Unfortunately none of you is able to admit that you are wrong. Therfore "discussions" with you take forever. Your response is a classic example. Instead of telling me that I am right you become offensive because your ego is hurt

[aznG]

What does it have to do with your claim that I am the only one on this forum who does not want those streetcars?
If you were capable of expressing yourself so that other people would not have to correct you, I would not appear to you as argumentative and angry ;)
Unfortunately none of you is able to admit that you are wrong. Therfore "discussions" with you take forever. Your response is a classic example. Instead of telling me that I am right you become offensive because your ego is hurt

I didn't say that you're the only one on this forum that doesn't want streetcars, I have no clue what you're talking about.... LOL

I'm sure you have not corrected me thus far in this thread? LOL

I'm sure I have not stated that you were wrong at any point in time... umm... Angry and Argumentative? Yes... LOL

No ego, just saying.. Nothing's gonna change on Eglinton, LRTs are on their way!

[Hitman21]

What does it have to do with your claim that I am the only one on this forum who does not want those streetcars?
If you were capable of expressing yourself so that other people would not have to correct you, I would not appear to you as argumentative and angry ;)
Unfortunately none of you is able to admit that you are wrong. Therfore "discussions" with you take forever. Your response is a classic example. Instead of telling me that I am right you become offensive because your ego is hurt

There are lots of people who dont want streetcars, Me included. These streetcars are inefficient, they are very slow and take up valuable lanes on the roads along with the expensive cost associated with them.

[BornRuff]

There are lots of people who dont want streetcars, Me included. These streetcars are inefficient, they are very slow and take up valuable lanes on the roads along with the expensive cost associated with them.

Welcome back. I truly thought you had been perm banned.

Lets hope that you matured a bit in your few months off.

[Hitman21]

Welcome back. I truly thought you had been perm banned.

Lets hope that you matured a bit in your few months off.

Yes The Great Hitman is back :D, Lets just say certain things were going wrong in life for me so I went back home in a self-imposed 3 month exile. Things are going much better for me now and I truly feel good.

[ishfish]

Yes The Great Hitman is back :D, Lets just say certain things were going wrong in life for me so I went back home in a self-imposed 3 month exile. Things are going much better for me now and I truly feel good.

It is good to see you again!

[Hitman21]

It is good to see you again!

Thank you!, The same to you as well. The Great Hitman has come back to rfd!

[vero95]

Thank you!, The same to you as well. The Great Hitman has come back to rfd!

right on time to receive poster of the year award
was there an amnesty announced for that occasion? :D

[Hitman21]

right on time to receive poster of the year award
was there an amnesty announced for that occasion? :D


Thanks Vero! I really should get poster of the year. I mean look at my epic threads and my consistent ability to own people with relative ease.

My posts and threads are very interesting and people love them just look at the amount of responses and views I get.

Say what you want but I bring in a lot of viewers and attention towards rfd. I make rfd a lot more interesting and fun, without me it would be a lot more boring.

[vero95]

Thanks Vero! I really should get poster of the year. I mean look at my epic threads and my consistent ability to own people with relative ease.

My posts and threads are very interesting and people love them just look at the amount of responses and views I get.

Say what you want but I bring in a lot of viewers and attention towards rfd. I make rfd a lot more interesting and fun, without me it would be a lot more boring.

no doubt you are natural