Chinese Gold Medalist told grandparents died a year ago after win

[Simaahoy]

http://m.now.msn.com/family-keeps-secrets-from-chinese-diver-until-she-wins-gold-medal

I think I would have been furious if someone did this to me. The parents are totally wrong for doing this 😡😡😡

[jaxx lite]

Sylvie Fréchette's fiancé committed suicide one week before the Barcelona Olympics

= very very cruel= the worst of the worst

He ruined her Olympic experience

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july30/frec.html

The nightmare began on July 18, 1992, just one week before the Barcelona Games. Shortly after 3 p.m. Sylvie Fréchette returned from a practice session and a photo shoot to the suburban Montreal condominium she shared with her fiancé and business manager, Sylvain Lake.

The smell of exhaust filled the condo. All the windows were shut, but a door leading to the garage was open. Lake's car was in the garage, motor running. Fréchette found Lake's body in the bedroom.
He had committed suicide.

His death—and many months of reflecting on it—took an emotional toll on her.

Fréchette was still in a state of shock when she arrived in Barcelona. "My body was in Barcelona, but my mind was somewhere else," she says. "I felt like I was eavesdropping on someone else's life. I was like this little robot. I don't remember the [Olympic] Village. "

Fréchette felt that she had missed out on something: the Olympics.

Lake did not leave a suicide note, and she still does not know why he killed himself.
"I did feel guilty for a while. I doubted myself. Should I have known?"

Only last year could Fréchette finally bring herself to visit Lake's gravestone in Montreal.


-

[cliffclaven]

I agree with the parents

Focus on the Olympics (her job / livelihood)

Grandparents are dead = Can't do anything about it (Life goes on)

Mom has breast cancer = Can't do anything about it ( daughter is not a doctor)

-

Very true.

BTW jaxx lite, your goldfish "Sparkles" didn't join the army, he died and your mother and I flushed him.

[xlc_88]

I agree with the parents

Focus on the Olympics (her job / livelihood)

Grandparents are dead = Can't do anything about it (Life goes on)

Mom has breast cancer = Can't do anything about it ( daughter is not a doctor)

-

It's not her job forever. Eventually all Olympians will retire. I don't agree with the parents. What if the mom had terminal breast cancer and died after she won the medal. What's more important to you? The medal or spending time with your mother?

[Manatus]

I agree with the parents

Focus on the Olympics (her job / livelihood)

Grandparents are dead = Can't do anything about it (Life goes on)

Mom has breast cancer = Can't do anything about it ( daughter is not a doctor)

-

See, that makes a lot of logical sense, but it just doesn't seem "human" to me. It's like the decision a robot (or Spock) would make, that it's an assembly line for people to win gold medals for the motherland and that along the way they stop being people.

Plus she's 26, she's not a child. In my opinion it's just wrong for a parent to manipulate their adult child's knowledge because "mommy knows best" and you figure they'll be better off your way.

[jaxx lite]

What if the mom had terminal breast cancer and died after she won the medal. What's more important to you? The medal or spending time with your mother?

It's very possible that she considers her mom a stranger.

I wonder if she made the effort to contact or visit her grandparents

=

[deltone]

******************

**********************************

As far as the subject matter, I think it's disgraceful that the athlete was not told about her grandparents. I would be furious if someone did this to me.

[xlc_88]

It's very possible that she considers her mom a stranger.

I wonder if she made the effort to contact or visit her grandparents

=

"Wu began training daily at a diving camp at the age of 6. By the time she was 16, she had left home to be installed in a government aquatic sports institute." I assume she saw her mom on a daily basis till 16. I'm sure she had some feelings.


*************************

You mean the Chinese GOVERNMENT is heartless.


Chinese only care about working (school, sports, work)
= no joke

-

So what? Are you jealous they work hard?

[a-tree]

Death happens to everyone. But chance for glory, it rarely ever comes. The posters criticizing the parents and taking generalizing stabs at the Chinese as a whole, you've never won anything in your life, and you never will.

[Simaahoy]

Working is more important than being told about dead grandparents
who are ghosts now

-

I rather be told that my parents are gone so that I can pay some respect for them/Mourn, then continue on.

That is it. Not told a year later...

[zz000ter]

Well - there is shark fin soup (heartless) and people that did not help small girl run over by truck (heartless)

Being sent away from home to a government training camp to get glory for China (heartless)
- I doubt the Chinese government cares much about the athletes - they just care about the gold medals
and the PR value that it gives them.

The athlete should have been allowed to make her own decision about how to handle her grandmother's death.

Life is not all about win-win-win
Life is about LIVING

[deltone]

Death happens to everyone. But chance for glory, it rarely ever comes. The posters criticizing the parents and taking generalizing stabs at the Chinese as a whole, you've never won anything in your life, and you never will.

Oh really. I don't see anywhere in MY post where I was generalizing or taking stabs at Chinese, but carry on with YOUR generalizing and false interpretations. My exact copied post:


As far as the subject matter, I think it's disgraceful that the athlete was not told about her grandparents. I would be furious if someone did this to me.

I don't care if they are Chinese, Indian, Scottish, or Austrian. It's disgraceful. PERIOD Oh, and where were you when people were slamming Americans?


http://forums.redflagdeals.com/man-sentenced-jail-30-days-collecting-rainwater-his-own-property-1209213/#post15122184

Actually my comment was very necessary.

Shaner, it will go over the heads of some so it begs the question, why even bother, although I'm glad you are bothering.

[UrbanPoet]

That gold medal was probably her ticket out of the ghetto.
She can now afford an education and probably gets food and housing from the government. Terrible way to live... But you gotta do what you gotta do to survive.

[xlc_88]

Death happens to everyone. But chance for glory, it rarely ever comes. The posters criticizing the parents and taking generalizing stabs at the Chinese as a whole, you've never won anything in your life, and you never will.


Working is more important than being told about dead grandparents
who are ghosts now

-

So you guys are pretty heartless yourself. Glory and working hard is more important than your family.

It's not about being Chinese. It's the CHINESE GOVERNMENT's fault. Do you really think people want this for their children? for their family?

[Agafaba]

"Wu began training daily at a diving camp at the age of 6. By the time she was 16, she had left home to be installed in a government aquatic sports institute." I assume she saw her mom on a daily basis till 16. I'm sure she had some feelings.

I would have a hard time giving news like that so close to the Olympics if my daughter had been training since she was 6... As long as my life wasnt in danger immediately I wouldnt say anything.

[Corleone187]

Reminds me of this movie how the guy lied about the concentration camp they were living in and tried to make it fun for the kid instead of making the kid cry


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16RZHqCIy9M&feature=related

[wilsonlam97]

That gold medal was probably her ticket out of the ghetto.
She can now afford an education and probably gets food and housing from the government. Terrible way to live... But you gotta do what you gotta do to survive.

Yeap. This is a mainland girl we're talking about.

[Jimboski]

Lot's of mixed reviews.

[Royalsoldier]

I'm going to agree with the parents decision. The news would of potentially affected her career and she could of lost everything. I'm sure her grandparents would of wanted her to succeed rather than mourn and lose it all.

[jacobe]

Life is different there. The girl was the family's hope to get a better living situation. Different mentality for a different society.

[jadoocian]

********************

First of all, I am neither Chinese or American, and I understand what you're trying to say.

However I think the problem is when people think "American", there is no particular race associated with it. You could be black, white, chinese, indian - American. But when people think "Chinese", they think someone with a chinese ancestory. I'm pretty sure you don't think of a black guy living in china when you hear the word "chinese". Does this make the implied double-standard by you okay? I don't know. But I did want to point out there is a difference worth noting.

[divx]

**********************

we are only interested in results, not excuses, if that's heartless to you, so be it.

[Junigenmukyoku]

********************


*****.

You and Simaahoy were totally made for each other. I hope this is what you're trying to show us. ;)



It's not the CHINESE GOVERNMENT's fault.

When people die, their spirits or ghosts still linger.

It is very possible that these spirits will try to enter the body of a living person.

The spirits will (negatively) affect the living person's body and mind

No joke

=

I find this funny. :lol:

[a-tree]

Oh really. I don't see anywhere in MY post where I was generalizing or taking stabs at Chinese, but carry on with YOUR generalizing and false interpretations. My exact copied post:


As far as the subject matter, I think it's disgraceful that the athlete was not told about her grandparents. I would be furious if someone did this to me.

I don't care if they are Chinese, Indian, Scottish, or Austrian. It's disgraceful. PERIOD Oh, and where were you when people were slamming Americans?



Shaner, it will go over the heads of some so it begs the question, why even bother, although I'm glad you are bothering.

This is true. I don't see where in your post you generalized Chinese folks. Perhaps my post wasn't directed to you. Perhaps.


So you guys are pretty heartless yourself. Glory and working hard is more important than your family.

It's not about being Chinese. It's the CHINESE GOVERNMENT's fault. Do you really think people want this for their children? for their family?

Immortality is eternal. Death but a moment in your life.

[Katchemash]

Oh really. I don't see anywhere in MY post where I was generalizing or taking stabs at Chinese, but carry on with YOUR generalizing and false interpretations. My exact copied post:


As far as the subject matter, I think it's disgraceful that the athlete was not told about her grandparents. I would be furious if someone did this to me.

I don't care if they are Chinese, Indian, Scottish, or Austrian. It's disgraceful. PERIOD Oh, and where were you when people were slamming Americans?



Shaner, it will go over the heads of some so it begs the question, why even bother, although I'm glad you are bothering.

Your just a certain Canadian ethnicity who is tired of truths being slung at your supposed "prestigious" race.

[Rehan]

This is the original article in Chinese: http://news.cn.yahoo.com/ypen/20120730/1211759.html

Apparently the English version is a misleading translation...? Can anyone confirm?

From http://www.reddit.com/r/olympics/comments/xj98i/chinese_diver_not_told_of_family_deaths_until_she/c5mxywb?context=3 :
"As for the grandparents it mentions her parents had at one point hid the news from her, but the word "曾" in Chinese signifies things of distance past in this context."

[Cafe_333]

i have to agree with jadoocian. it's one thing to make a generalization about americans, however to make a generalization about a specific race can be construed as being racist.

[poedua]

"Wu began training daily at a diving camp at the age of 6. By the time she was 16, she had left home to be installed in a government aquatic sports institute." I assume she saw her mom on a daily basis till 16. I'm sure she had some feelings.

And talented Canadian hockey players will often leave home at age 15 to move to another town / city and billet with another family and go to school there ....just to play Junior hockey.

[poedua]

i have to agree with jadoocian. it's one thing to make a generalization about americans, however to make a generalization about a specific race can be construed as being racist.

Asian is a racial reference.

Chinese is a cultural reference.....just as American is a cultural reference.

[laihama]

It's not about being Chinese. It's the CHINESE GOVERNMENT's fault. Do you really think people want this for their children? for their family?
Actually, the news article that I read says that it was the mother's decision to withhold the news. I'm sure you like to imagine that some Communist official held a gun to her head and told her to keep silent, but that just did not happen.

It's a private family matter. We are not to judge.

[laihama]

As far as the subject matter, I think it's disgraceful that the athlete was not told about her grandparents. I would be furious if someone did this to me.
As would most people, including the Chinese, under normal circumstances. You and I and many Canadians have a comfortable home, two cars in the drive way, enough family income to have disposable cash so we can enjoy life more, a pension/RRSP to not worry about depending on our children during our golden years,....etc. I don't think you and Shaner appreciate how important one Olympic performance is to this particular family. I also read in the news that there is a heated debate within Chinese forums about whether this was appropriate. Clearly, not all Chinese accept this.


Shaner, it will go over the heads of some so it begs the question, why even bother, although I'm glad you are bothering.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Shaner]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I said it to prove a point. Whether I even believe what I wrote is irrelevant.

Can't stand hypocrites.

[vero95]

only those who never tried to achieve something seriuosly find this behaviour strange

[chickenbones]

This thread is worthless. The article is misleading. The original Chinese article says back in 2004 they once hid her grandparents death while she was competing. The mother hid her own "early stage" cancer while receiving treatment. Eventually she were told about it. I think any parent American, Italian or Chinese would have done the same. Considering the fact that she was around 16 years old. What the mother did is just to keep some weight off of her shoulders while she concentrates on training.

English article is just sensationalism.

Chinese article for those who cares.

http://2012.sina.com.cn/cn/aq/2012-07-30/113627247.shtml


Also states, the family stays in touch by reading her twitter. She came home unexpectedly one time to attend a meeting, only slept for a few hours and no one dared to talk to her to distract her. The family keeps their phone on 24 hours a day just in case she calls which is very rare. Oh and the whole family calls her "sister" not by name and she was sent to training camp in 1998 which makes her 12.

[zz000ter]

China’s child-fuelled medal machine keeps cranking out Olympic gold (http://www.thestar.com/sports/london2012/article/1235702--china-s-child-fuelled-medal-machine-keeps-cranking-out-olympic-gold)

Corporations use virtual child slavery for economic profit
Chinese government uses virtual child slavery for political profit

[chickenbones]

Which Corporation? American corporations who want to keep hefty margins?

Training is cruel for sure, but I don't think any olympic athlete had it easy, doesn't matter which country they are from.


China’s child-fuelled medal machine keeps cranking out Olympic gold (http://www.thestar.com/sports/london2012/article/1235702--china-s-child-fuelled-medal-machine-keeps-cranking-out-olympic-gold)

Corporations use virtual child slavery for economic profit
Chinese government uses virtual child slavery for political profit

[kingofwale]

Actually, the news article that I read says that it was the mother's decision to withhold the news. I'm sure you like to imagine that some Communist official held a gun to her head and told her to keep silent, but that just did not happen.

It's a private family matter. We are not to judge.

yep. just like it was the solo decision of the 4 badminton teams to lose... no outside influence from coaches, other team-mates, governing body whatsoever.

*sighs*, I can only wish this world is that naive. a shot from "The Star"

http://i.thestar.com/images/9c/b8/598717b544c2947ccd16643b7031.jpg

[ji2o0k]

"Heartless"

[Chorus (Acapella):]
In the night, I hear them talk the coldest story ever told
Somewhere far along this road, he lost his soul
To a woman so heartless [echoes 3X]
How could you be so heartless [echoes 3X]
Oh, how could you be so heartless?

[Verse 1]
How could you be so cold as the winter wind when it breeze yo
Just remember that you talking to me though
You need to watch the way you talking to me yo
I mean after all the things that we been through
I mean after all the things we got into
Ayo, I know there are some things that you ain't told me
Ayo, I did some things but that's the old me
And now you wanna get me back and you gonna show me
So you walk around like you don't know me
You got a new friend, well I got homies
But in the end it's still so lonely

[Chorus]

[Verse 2]
How could you be so Dr. Evil?
You bringing out a side of me that I don't know
I decided we weren't gonna speak so
Why we up 3 A.M. on the phone?
Why would she be so mad at me for?
Homie I don't know she's hot and cold
I won't stop wont mess my groove up
Cause I already know how this thing go
You run and tell your friends that you're leaving me
They say that they don't see what you see in me
You wait a couple months then you gonna see
You'll never find nobody better than me

[Chorus]

[Verse 3]
Talking talking talking talk
Baby lets just knock it off
They don't know what we been through
They don't know about me and you
So why I got something new to see?
And you just gonna keep hating me
And we just gonna be enemies
I know you can't believe
I could just leave it wrong
And you can't make it right
I'm gonna take off tonight (Into the night)

[ji2o0k]

yep. just like it was the solo decision of the 4 badminton teams to lose... no outside influence from coaches, other team-mates, governing body whatsoever.

*sighs*, I can only wish this world is that naive. a shot from "The Star"

http://i.thestar.com/images/9c/b8/598717b544c2947ccd16643b7031.jpgyou do realize that any candidate that fails to qualify for the olympics is then put into the "Secret Ninja Assassin society"....and trained to be a ninja assassin...

Hence why the Chinese have such great bodyguards for their high ranking officials and covert agents to carry out dastardly duties across the world....

Actually the Olympic pipeline into the Ninja society is ingenius IMO......win-win for everyone!

**well except for the targets of the Chinese government....they die a horrible death by a thousand finger method....**

[chickenbones]

No doubt it's hard work, but do you think there are no training camps in America, Japan, Russia? The American team dominated gymnastics, do you think for a second that those athelete didn't work just as hard as those Chinese kids in the picture?


yep. just like it was the solo decision of the 4 badminton teams to lose... no outside influence from coaches, other team-mates, governing body whatsoever.

*sighs*, I can only wish this world is that naive. a shot from "The Star"

http://i.thestar.com/images/9c/b8/598717b544c2947ccd16643b7031.jpg

[laihama]

yep. just like it was the solo decision of the 4 badminton teams to lose... no outside influence from coaches, other team-mates, governing body whatsoever.It seems you are one of those people who thinks that a gun was held to her head. As evidenced by some comments here and in message boards in China, some people can understand why such a decision was made. But I guess you are going to keep putting your hands over your ears and insist that bad evil Commies were involved.



*sighs*, I can only wish this world is that naive. a shot from "The Star"

The Toronto Star: The King of Sensationalism

[deltone]

As would most people, including the Chinese, under normal circumstances. You and I and many Canadians have a comfortable home, two cars in the drive way, enough family income to have disposable cash so we can enjoy life more, a pension/RRSP to not worry about depending on our children during our golden years,....etc. I don't think you and Shaner appreciate how important one Olympic performance is to this particular family. I also read in the news that there is a heated debate within Chinese forums about whether this was appropriate. Clearly, not all Chinese accept this.


Two wrongs don't make a right.

You are missing the point Shaner was trying to make. In no way do I believe he truly believes that "Chinese are heartless". I've read enough of his posts to know this isn't what he would write, unless he was trying to make a point and his point was very well made. Many times posts are made about Americans and those posts go completely unchallenged and ignored, thus showing that they are acceptable by the majority of posters. Now, make one negative post about the Chinese and watch out. THAT was the point he was "trying" to make but of course it has gone over the heads of most.


I said it to prove a point. Whether I even believe what I wrote is irrelevant.

Can't stand hypocrites.

Exactly.


only those who never tried to achieve something seriuosly find this behaviour strange

LOL, ya, this coming from you.

[kingofwale]

No doubt it's hard work, but do you think there are no training camps in America, Japan, Russia? The American team dominated gymnastics, do you think for a second that those athelete didn't work just as hard as those Chinese kids in the picture?

well, the only picture i've seen an American baby dangling that high off the ground is this...
http://www.omgnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Michael-Jackson-danngles-baby-over-balcony.jpg

those pictures just borderline child-abuse... Of course, not that Chinese human right record is anything to write home about

[sandikosh]

When you can't win, make excuses. If you can't find an excuse, criticise!

[zz000ter]

The question is "win at what cost"?

Similar to the question "profit at what cost"

Part of being human and humanity is that many things are possible - "but at what cost"?

[vero95]

LOL, ya, this coming from you.

that's what I read in the toronto star :D

[divx]

aren't you guys just over-reacting? have any of you ever dedicated 20 years of your life to achieve a goal? you'd want nothing to get in the way to mess that up, especially when you are so close in reaching it. the only thing matters in this world is results, hard results, how you achieve it is up to you. I never heard of michael phillips before he won the gold, had he not do it I still won't know who he is. while I agree their methods are cruel and constitutes child abuse, but you can't deny their results, and those results justifies the means. Before you hypocrites criticize me of lacking "humanity", you should know this is what it means to achieve greatness, this is the Olympic spirit, to win and be superior than the rest. Their training is cruel, they use steorids, they bribe the judges, do whatever it takes to win, this is what I wanted to see in Olympics, people with the drive and will to achieve greatness regardless of methods, I want to see the pinnacle of mankind and not some softie BS that you people seemed to have had too much babysitting.

[divx]

The question is "win at what cost"?

Similar to the question "profit at what cost"

Part of being human and humanity is that many things are possible - "but at what cost"?

cost is irrelevant, only results matters.

[poedua]

You are missing the point Shaner was trying to make. In no way do I believe he truly believes that "Chinese are heartless". I've read enough of his posts to know this isn't what he would write, unless he was trying to make a point and his point was very well made.

Many times posts are made about Americans and those posts go completely unchallenged and ignored, thus showing that they are acceptable by the majority of posters. Now, make one negative post about the Chinese and watch out.

THAT was the point he was "trying" to make but of course it has gone over the heads of most.


+1

[Purgatory]

aren't you guys just over-reacting? have any of you ever dedicated 20 years of your life to achieve a goal? you'd want nothing to get in the way to mess that up, especially when you are so close in reaching it. the only thing matters in this world is results, hard results, how you achieve it is up to you. I never heard of michael phillips before he won the gold, had he not do it I still won't know who he is. while I agree their methods are cruel and constitutes child abuse, but you can't deny their results, and those results justifies the means. Before you hypocrites criticize me of lacking "humanity", you should know this is what it means to achieve greatness, this is the Olympic spirit, to win and be superior than the rest. Their training is cruel, they use steorids, they bribe the judges, do whatever it takes to win, this is what I wanted to see in Olympics, people with the drive and will to achieve greatness regardless of methods, I want to see the pinnacle of mankind and not some softie BS that you people seemed to have had too much babysitting.

Look up Joannie Rochette.. her mother died two days before her performance and I believe she made it into the top three. This was in the 2010 Winter Olympics.

[poedua]

aren't you guys just over-reacting? have any of you ever dedicated 20 years of your life to achieve a goal? you'd want nothing to get in the way to mess that up, especially when you are so close in reaching it. the only thing matters in this world is results, hard results, how you achieve it is up to you. I never heard of michael phillips before he won the gold, had he not do it I still won't know who he is. while I agree their methods are cruel and constitutes child abuse, but you can't deny their results, and those results justifies the means. Before you hypocrites criticize me of lacking "humanity", you should know this is what it means to achieve greatness, this is the Olympic spirit, to win and be superior than the rest. Their training is cruel, they use steorids, they bribe the judges, do whatever it takes to win, this is what I wanted to see in Olympics, people with the drive and will to achieve greatness regardless of methods, I want to see the pinnacle of mankind and not some softie BS that you people seemed to have had too much babysitting.

You don't ' achieve greatness ' by cheating and bribing judges and throwing matches....when doing " whatever it takes to win " means having / choosing to break the rules .....you simply achieve ' SHAME '

[mucat]

Well - there is shark fin soup (heartless) and people that did not help small girl run over by truck (heartless)

The shark fin soup issue have nothing to heartless or compassionate. It is an issue of over-consumption and sharks become endangered.

Here is a chinese saving a baby in a totally heartless way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-qVh9ZqSmw

[kklove]

My grandpa died during my university last year and my parents didn't tell me until I finished school, my another grandpa died when I was aboard working and my parents didn't tell me until I figured it out myself from talking to other relatives.
It was so sad to hear those news long after they passed away and even today but I understand why my parents doing it.

No blame on parents but i prefer to be told right away.

[Junigenmukyoku]

Asian is a racial reference.

Chinese is a cultural reference.....just as American is a cultural reference.

lol wut? Asia is a continent filled with different kinds of people, since when did that become a racial reference?

[sylpherware]

Their training is cruel, they use steorids, they bribe the judges, do whatever it takes to win, this is what I wanted to see in Olympics, people with the drive and will to achieve greatness regardless of methods, I want to see the pinnacle of mankind and not some softie BS that you people seemed to have had too much babysitting.

Sarcasm?

[coolspot]

http://m.now.msn.com/family-keeps-secrets-from-chinese-diver-until-she-wins-gold-medal

I think I would have been furious if someone did this to me. The parents are totally wrong for doing this 😡😡😡

Very sad - China has some major problems with ethics and priorities. They put winning above everything else. I hope they learn a little about humanism.

[poedua]

lol wut? Asia is a continent filled with different kinds of people, since when did that become a racial reference?

As a descriptor of a racial group - i.e Asian, Caucasian, Black, Hispanic etc.

[Junigenmukyoku]

They funny thing about this article is that they never mention anything about the relationship between the swimmer and her grandma, and how the swimmer felt in regards to her parents keeping this a secret.

[poedua]

Very sad - China has some major problems with ethics and priorities. They put winning above everything else. I hope they learn a little about humanism.

I think you're right.

For example, someone has to be 16 or turning 16 to compete on women's gymnastics in the Olympics. I think if you were to ask most people to pick between 2 ages - 10 and 16 - that best described the competitors below, I don't think 16 would the overwhelming reply...at least IMHO....

http://athletebodyimage.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/oly.jpg

[divx]

Look up Joannie Rochette.. her mother died two days before her performance and I believe she made it into the top three. This was in the 2010 Winter Olympics.
top three? she probably could've been the top one.

You don't ' achieve greatness ' by cheating and bribing judges and throwing matches....when doing " whatever it takes to win " means having / choosing to break the rules .....you simply achieve ' SHAME '
that's what you think, these people at the top of their game don't care, why do you think there has to be extensive drug test, gender test, cases where russians bribed officials, etc, they just doing whatever it takes to win.

[divx]

Sarcasm?

a lot of people don't seem to be aware what this world is about, weak mentality like that will only drag us behind.

[Simaahoy]

I think you're right.

For example, someone has to be 16 or turning 16 to compete on women's gymnastics in the Olympics. I think if you were to ask most people to pick between 2 ages - 10 and 16 - that best described the competitors below, I don't think 16 would the overwhelming reply...at least IMHO....

http://athletebodyimage.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/oly.jpg

I am sure that those girls are under sixteen.

[divx]

I think you're right.

For example, someone has to be 16 or turning 16 to compete on women's gymnastics in the Olympics. I think if you were to ask most people to pick between 2 ages - 10 and 16 - that best described the competitors below, I don't think 16 would the overwhelming reply...at least IMHO....

http://athletebodyimage.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/oly.jpg

what's the deal with age limit anyway, some really old people participates in the Olympics and doing quite well, same can be said for young people, I want to see world record smashed, if a toddler did that, that's cool with me.

[poedua]

that's what you think, these people at the top of their game don't care, why do you think there has to be extensive drug test, gender test, cases where russians bribed officials, etc, they just doing whatever it takes to win.

Actually, I'd say that's what virtually everyone thinks.

If the only way you can win is to cheat, bribe judges and throw matches, then you're generally seen as nothing but a ' low life ' loser ( at least in Canada ...maybe it's viewed differently in China ) .....and the furthest thing from ' achieving greatness '....at least IMO.

[sylpherware]

a lot of people don't seem to be aware what this world is about, weak mentality like that will only drag us behind.

Maybe you can comment on my thread then:
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/would-you-support-competitions-between-enhanced-athletes-1206600/

[laihama]

You are missing the point Shaner was trying to make. In no way do I believe he truly believes that "Chinese are heartless". I've read enough of his posts to know this isn't what he would write, unless he was trying to make a point and his point was very well made. Many times posts are made about Americans and those posts go completely unchallenged and ignored, thus showing that they are acceptable by the majority of posters. Now, make one negative post about the Chinese and watch out. THAT was the point he was "trying" to make but of course it has gone over the heads of most.The bolded part is not logical. If I flipped it around and observed that you've never posted a message challenging a Sinophobic post, does that mean you hate the Chinese? Of course, not. FWIW, I only read the first post of that rainwater thread. I deemed it too stupid to read the rest of it.

Certain groups will be more sensitive to outside criticism. At various points in (North American) history, there were groups that responded sharply to any perceived discrimination -- feminists, blacks, gays, Jews, Muslims, natives, etc. Traditionally, the Chinese would not be part of this group, but now they are because of the anti-Chinese bias in the media. (And yes, there is a bias. There is already an anti-American bias and the Americans are our friends. It's ludicrous to believe that the media is perfectly objective when the Chinese are not our friends.)

Try criticizing Jews or Israel on a message board with lots of Jews. Or make a misogynist post on a message board with lots of women. Would the reaction be any less severe?

[poedua]

what's the deal with age limit anyway, some really old people participates in the Olympics and doing quite well, same can be said for young people, I want to see world record smashed, if a toddler did that, that's cool with me.

What's the deal with an age limit ?

Again, perhaps this is yet another concept the Chinese Olympic Federation doesn't fully grasp...it's ( i.e an age limit ) something we here in Canada call....RULES !

[kennyhohoho]

I think you're right.

For example, someone has to be 16 or turning 16 to compete on women's gymnastics in the Olympics. I think if you were to ask most people to pick between 2 ages - 10 and 16 - that best described the competitors below, I don't think 16 would the overwhelming reply...at least IMHO....

http://athletebodyimage.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/oly.jpg

You do realize Asians are generally smaller and "younger looking" than their Caucasian counter parts.

Also, gymnasts tend to be rather small to begin with.

[poedua]

I am sure that those girls are under sixteen.

They certainly appear that way to me as well.

[divx]

Actually, I'd say that's what virtually everyone thinks.

If the only way you can win is to cheat, bribe judges and throw matches, then you're generally seen as nothing but a ' low life ' loser ( at least in Canada ...maybe it's viewed differently in China ) .....and the furthest thing from ' achieving greatness '....at least IMO.
only if they get caught, they can make their drug better next time so they won't get caught, i'm certain most if not all of them uses drugs or other questionable methods and get away with it.

[kingofwale]

You do realize Asians are generally smaller and "younger looking" than their Caucasian counter parts.

Also, gymnasts tend to be rather small to begin with.
you are absolutely right. I thought they were 8, but now I think they are 10.

Thank you for opening my eyes.

[sylpherware]

If the only way you can win is to cheat, bribe judges and throw matches, then you're generally seen as nothing but a ' low life ' loser ( at least in Canada ...maybe it's viewed differently in China ) .....and the furthest thing from ' achieving greatness '....at least IMO.

You know what, throw in some sex, drama, and rude commentaries, and you'd get WWE! :lol:

[poedua]

You do realize Asians are generally smaller and "younger looking" than their Caucasian counter parts.

Yeah.....that must be it.

:rolleyes:

FWIW....16-year-old Chinese swimmer Ye Shiwen.....

http://babajidesalu.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/chinese-swimming-prodigy-ye-shiwen-dailymail-jidesalu.jpg?w=594

[divx]

What's the deal with an age limit ?

Again, perhaps this is yet another concept the Chinese Olympic Federation doesn't fully grasp...it's ( i.e an age limit ) something we here in Canada call....RULES !


what's up with that ridiculous rule? if you can send 6 yr olds to get gold and smash records, you will have my full support. For an event that celebrates humanity, they shouldn't be discriminating on age.

[laihama]

what's the deal with age limit anyway, some really old people participates in the Olympics and doing quite well, same can be said for young people, I want to see world record smashed, if a toddler did that, that's cool with me.The age limit is supposed to prevent child abuse. There is supposedly an advantage in gymnastics if you have a smaller body. So, in order to prevent coaches from training gymnists at too early an age (which would affect their normal development), they placed a minimum age limit.

[divx]

You know what, throw in some sex, drama, and rude commentaries, and you'd get WWE! :lol:

haven't there been enough sex at the Olympics? big orgy every time.

[divx]

The age limit is supposed to prevent child abuse. There is supposedly an advantage in gymnastics if you have a smaller body. So, in order to prevent coaches from training gymnists at too early an age (which would affect their normal development), they placed a minimum age limit.

so how is that working out?

[gman]

The age limit is supposed to prevent child abuse. There is supposedly an advantage in gymnastics if you have a smaller body. So, in order to prevent coaches from training gymnists at too early an age (which would affect their normal development), they placed a minimum age limit.

The age limit is set for the age when you are competing, not when you are trained. Hence, there are still child abuse IMO. Girls were send to have those "torture" training when they were 4 in China.

[kennyhohoho]

Yeah.....that must be it.

:rolleyes:

FWIW....16-year-old Chinese swimmer Ye Shiwen.....

http://babajidesalu.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/chinese-swimming-prodigy-ye-shiwen-dailymail-jidesalu.jpg?w=594

Yes, because everyone of the same age should be the same size.

[poedua]

what's up with that ridiculous rule? if you can send 6 yr olds to get gold and smash records, you will have my full support. For an event that celebrates humanity, they shouldn't be discriminating on age.

If there is a minimum 16 year age limit for women's gymnastics , do you think the Chinese Olympic officials should abide by those rules ?

YES or NO ?

[laihama]

The age limit is set for the age when you are competing, not when you are trained. Hence, there are still child abuse IMO. Girls were send to have those "torture" training when they were 4 in China.Dude, I was not part of the committee that set up the rules.

This is what I mean about sensationalism in the news. I'm sure you can find a at least one or two 4-year-olds at the training camps, but they are far from the norm. Kind of like those accusations that Foxconn employs child labor.

[poedua]

You do realize Asians are generally smaller and "younger looking" than their Caucasian counter parts.

Also, gymnasts tend to be rather small to begin with.

The picture I posted in Post #67.

If you could only pick one age ......would you say those girls more closely resembled 10 year olds or 16 year olds ?

[divx]

If there is a minimum 16 year age limit for women's gymnastics , do you think the Chinese Olympic officials should abide by those rules ?

YES or NO ?

they are just doing whatever it takes to win, there is rule against bribing judges and taking steroids and people do it anyway.

[sylpherware]

If you could only pick one age ......would you say those girls more closely resembled 10 year olds or 16 year olds ?

As much as I hate an unfair competition, what can you do about it? You can't say "they're too young because they LOOK too young". Unless there's a human-equivalent "tree ring", you can only go by birth certs, which are easily doctored if the government officials back the decision.

[kennyhohoho]

The picture I posted in Post #67.

If you could only pick one age ......would you say those girls more closely resembled 10 year olds or 16 year olds ?

Depends what standard you're going by. By North American standards, sure, you could say they look a little young for their age. But since they're Chinese athletes, you can't apply those same standards. And since I'm not from China, I couldn't tell you what an average 16 year old Chinese girl looks like.

Hell, I myself looked like I was 12 all the way until I graduated high school. And I was raised primarily in North America. So what does that tell you?

[divx]

^unfair competition is part of the game, there is news Egypt gave their athletes fake sports gear, some poor country obvious can't afford the best gear for their athletes so they are at a disadvantage. It's not just about the athletes, the game represents nations wealth and power, pharmaceutical companies, sports gear makers, etc.

[divx]

Depends what standard you're going by. By North American standards, sure, you could say they look a little young for their age. But since they're Chinese athletes, you can't apply those same standards. And since I'm not from China, I couldn't tell you what an average 16 year old Chinese girl looks like.

Hell, I myself looked like I was 12 all the way until I graduated high school. And I was raised primarily in North America. So what does that tell you?
they really shouldn't be making any rules where they can't test and enforce it.

[steve-0101]

As much as I hate an unfair competition, what can you do about it? You can't say "they're too young because they LOOK too young". Unless there's a human-equivalent "tree ring", you can only go by birth certs, which are easily doctored if the government officials back the decision.

So you don't advocate cutting them in half and counting the number of rings?

[gman]

Dude, I was not part of the committee that set up the rules.

This is what I mean about sensationalism in the news. I'm sure you can find a at least one or two 4-year-olds at the training camps, but they are far from the norm. Kind of like those accusations that Foxconn employs child labor.

First, I have nothing against you. I just point out in China there are many 4 years old send to training so that some of them could be up there one day. I am not talking about one or two. I am talking tens in different cities. There were documentary about that. They all trained with tears. That usually happens in the poor city/town/village. They can be athletic, acrobats, etc eventually or nobody and back to hard labour.

It is the norm in those places. There are classes for 4, 5, 6, 7, .... and they live in the "school".

Just for an example, Sui Lu, one of the member in Chinese gymnastic team. She started training when she was 3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_Lu

[sylpherware]

Hell, I myself looked like I was 12 all the way until I graduated high school. And I was raised primarily in North America. So what does that tell you?

Exactly. I'm in my late 20's and getting carded at liquor stores is still a norm for me.

[peanutz]

Look up Joannie Rochette.. her mother died two days before her performance and I believe she made it into the top three. This was in the 2010 Winter Olympics.Joannie Rochette's bronze medal was NOT without controversy, as there are many who believe Mirai Nagasu (Japanese-American skater) put out a better performance to earn bronze, and that Joannie was given the bronze due to home advantage + sympathy in part.

And yes, going into the Olympics Joannie Rochette was a contender for Gold.

[laihama]

First, I have nothing against you. I just point out in China there are many 4 years old send to training so that some of them could be up there one day. I am not talking about one or two. I am talking tens in different cities. There were documentary about that. They all trained with tears. That usually happens in the poor city/town/village. They can be athletic, acrobats, etc eventually or nobody and back to hard labour.

It is the norm in those places. There are classes for 4, 5, 6, 7, .... and they live in the "school".

Just for an example, Sui Lu, one of the member in Chinese gymnastic team. She started training when she was 3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_LuSensationalist let's-find-a-crying-kid documentary?

Toronto Gymnastics International http://www.torontogymnastics.com/girls.php
Under the competitive programs, they have classes starting at 4 years old, granted, probably not as intensive as China. And they don't provide food and lodging. LOL.

Fit4Life KinderBounce Program in Toronto http://kinderbouncegymnastics.com/?main_page=about
Youngest starting age: 1.5 years

The Little Gym of Vaughan
Youngest program is for 4 months - 3 years. http://www.thelittlegym.com/Vaughanon/Pages/parent-child.aspx

I don't think they guarantee that your kid will bring home the gold. If they don't succeed they can apply for a job at Tim Hortons.

[gman]

Sensationalist let's-find-a-crying-kid documentary?

Toronto Gymnastics International http://www.torontogymnastics.com/girls.php
Under the competitive programs, they have classes starting at 4 years old, granted, probably not as intensive as China. And they don't provide food and lodging. LOL.

Fit4Life KinderBounce Program in Toronto http://kinderbouncegymnastics.com/?main_page=about
Youngest starting age: 1.5 years

The Little Gym of Vaughan
Youngest program is for 4 months - 3 years. http://www.thelittlegym.com/Vaughanon/Pages/parent-child.aspx

I don't think they guarantee that your kid will bring home the gold. If they don't succeed they can apply for a job at Tim Hortons.

What is your point? Are you comparing the above program to these?

http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/pictures/chinese-gymnastics-kids-training-with-tears-sweat-dreams.html

Do Canadian parents allow their kids to go through that without calling the authority?

[Junigenmukyoku]

As a descriptor of a racial group - i.e Asian, Caucasian, Black, Hispanic etc.

Asian is not a race :facepalm:

[aplayaz2000]

Asian is not a race :facepalm:apparently it is by a lot of people lol...


well i see it as, sometimes the truth isn't always the answer

[laihama]

Do Canadian parents allow their kids to go through that without calling the authority?
Are you saying the Chinese parents are not aware of how the training is done?

Tell me, when you went through elementary school, did your teacher ever hit you? FYI, it would be illegal in Canada now.

[Simaahoy]

Asian is not a race :facepalm:

yes it is

[divx]

Are you saying the Chinese parents are not aware of how the training is done?

Tell me, when you went through elementary school, did your teacher ever hit you? FYI, it would be illegal in Canada now.
it would be interested to see how the world will turn out few decades from now, will china be hogging all the medals?

[Junigenmukyoku]

What is your point? Are you comparing the above program to these?

http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/pictures/chinese-gymnastics-kids-training-with-tears-sweat-dreams.html

Do Canadian parents allow their kids to go through that without calling the authority?

+1

China takes the Olympics way too seriously, and I think it's terrible that these kids have to go through this. I'm pretty sure many of these kids had no say in this, so sad.

[Junigenmukyoku]

yes it is

Care to explain?

[Agafaba]

America has their kid beauty pageants and China has the Olympics.

Is the China bashing off topic or not... I am not sure.

[kingofwale]

America has their kid beauty pageants and China has the Olympics.

Is the China bashing off topic or not... I am not sure.

that's like comparing WWII with the War of 1812.

Let's not kid ourselves here.

[Agafaba]

that's like comparing WWII with the War of 1812.

Let's not kid ourselves here.

your right, America only mentally/physically abuses their children a little so its ok. Damn those Chinese scum!

[fboybcb]

It's not her job forever. Eventually all Olympians will retire. I don't agree with the parents. What if the mom had terminal breast cancer and died after she won the medal. What's more important to you? The medal or spending time with your mother?


It is only What if, and this is not the case so I agree with the parents. Everyone dies so there is nothing the daughter could do if she knew it earlier or not. Her parents were being considerate.

[jaxx lite]

Do Canadian parents allow their kids to go through that without calling the authority?

There is an American tv show called "Dance Moms".

The kids are around 6 - 12 years old.
I was surprised to see little American kids working so hard to win dance competitions.

Their teacher yells at them and they cry.
Occasionally, the kids slip and fall.
A person can die or become paralyzed just from falling

Stereotype of gymnasts is that they are short.
All that damage to their bones make them short?


-

[gman]

Are you saying the Chinese parents are not aware of how the training is done?

Tell me, when you went through elementary school, did your teacher ever hit you? FYI, it would be illegal in Canada now.

No, I did not say the Chinese parents do not know about it. I don't know how you get that idea. I am saying Chinese parents of those poor kids in China knowingly allow that to happen and Canadian parents would not.

[Ticco]

There is an American tv show called "Dance Moms".

The kids are around 6 - 12 years old.
I was surprised to see little American kids working so hard to win dance competitions.

Their teacher yells at them and they cry.
Occasionally, the kids slip and fall.
A person can die or become paralyzed just from falling

Stereotype of gymnasts is that they are short.
All that damage to their bones make them short?


-

No man, you can have gymnasts of all body types and heights but as with all sports - when you reach advanced levels of competition, different sports select for certain body types when you move into the elite categories of competition.

[kingofwale]

your right, America only mentally/physically abuses their children a little so its ok. Damn those Chinese scum!

so you do agree that Chinese mentally/physically abuse their children more.

;), and here I am thinking you are blinded by your personal attachment. ;)

[poedua]

Asian is not a race :facepalm:

Sure it is...as in Asian, Caucasian, Black, Hispanic etc. race.

[Simaahoy]

your right, America only mentally/physically abuses their children a little so its ok. Damn those Chinese scum!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABzMAuI1vj0

[poedua]

they are just doing whatever it takes to win, there is rule against bribing judges and taking steroids and people do it anyway.

You didn't answer my question.

Again.

If there is a minimum 16 year age limit for women's gymnastics , do you think the Chinese Olympic officials should abide by those rules ?

One word answer is all I need from you .....YES or NO ?

[Ticco]

No, I did not say the Chinese parents do not know about it. I don't know how you get that idea. I am saying Chinese parents of those poor kids in China allow that to happen and Canadian parents would not.



By and large I'll say that many Chinese, including those in the mainland, really do oppose these harsh circumstances and do feel that many kids from poor villages suffer through a lot just because they are poor and just for the sake of winning medals. They're not proud of it at all.

[gman]

By and large I'll say that many Chinese, including those in the mainland, really do oppose these harsh circumstances and do feel that many kids from poor villages suffer through a lot just because they are poor and just for the sake of winning medals. They're not proud of it at all.

That I totally agree. However, it is the Chinese government which endorses this kind of "abuse". It is the official that put the "pride" on top of the welfare of their citizen.
e.g. that Chinese weight lifter who won silver. Before the final, the officials of his home town happily "invited" his elderly parents to a place to witness the "gold" moment. They treated them like VIP. When he got a silver, those officials left right the way and left the elderly parents stayed there. Nobody bother to take them home.

[Ticco]

Sure it is...as in Asian, Caucasian, Black, Hispanic etc. race.


Last time I've checked they've traditionally been - mongoloid, caucasoid, australoid, negroid, and capoid.

[Junigenmukyoku]

Sure it is...as in Asian, Caucasian, Black, Hispanic etc. race.

Please describe to me what the Asian race is because I'm having a hard time understanding.

[Simaahoy]

Last time I've checked they've traditionally been - mongoloid, caucasoid, australoid, negroid, and capoid.

Some people don't fit in any of the catergories

[Agafaba]

so you do agree that Chinese mentally/physically abuse their children more.

;), and here I am thinking you are blinded by your personal attachment. ;)

Personal attachment to what?

[Simaahoy]

Please describe to me what the Asian race is because I'm having a hard time understanding.

Ever heard of google?

asian 5529 up, 1307 down
(Attempting to add a decent, more serious and accurate definition to the lot.)

In the United States, the most common use of the word refers to people originating from East and Southeast Asia (China, Japan, South/North Korea, Vietnam, among others). Indians and Pakistanis might be referred to as South Asians, where as Filipinos and Samoans might be called Pacific Islanders.

In England, "asian" most commonly refers to people of Indian or Pakistani descent, whereas "oriental" might refer to East and Southeast Asians (NOTE: "oriental" is certainly considered politically incorrect in the United States).


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=asian

[Agafaba]

By and large I'll say that many Chinese, including those in the mainland, really do oppose these harsh circumstances and do feel that many kids from poor villages suffer through a lot just because they are poor and just for the sake of winning medals. They're not proud of it at all.

Ironically making them better than the Americans that turned their child abuse into a hit series.

[Ticco]

Some people don't fit in any of the catergories

Wow, thanks for the bold treatment ;)

The evidence suggests that race is subjective and there is only the human race.

But IF people want to start talking about "race", then there are the 5 categories and then mixtures of said categories.

[Ticco]

LOL are you kidding?

You're referring to the use of the word as describing groups of ethnicities, not races.

Ever heard of an education?

Let's try google! http://lmgtfy.com/?q=asian+race

[desidealer49]

Ever heard of google?

asian 5529 up, 1307 down
(Attempting to add a decent, more serious and accurate definition to the lot.)

In the United States, the most common use of the word refers to people originating from East and Southeast Asia (China, Japan, South/North Korea, Vietnam, among others). Indians and Pakistanis might be referred to as South Asians, where as Filipinos and Samoans might be called Pacific Islanders.

In England, "asian" most commonly refers to people of Indian or Pakistani descent, whereas "oriental" might refer to East and Southeast Asians (NOTE: "oriental" is certainly considered politically incorrect in the United States).


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=asian

So basically that means asian is not a race, but a label for many races.

[laihama]

Some would argue that race is an artificial construct. Biologically speaking, there is no such thing as a race.

"Race" was created so that racism can exist.

[jaxx lite]

so you do agree that Chinese mentally/physically abuse their children more.

Not necessarily.

Like someone mentioned earlier.
just a few years ago
Canadian school principals were allowed to hit misbehaving students

but most likely, today
school principals are not allowed to hit misbehaving students

A white American mentioned that her father tried to stop her from going to university
and he would regularly insult her intelligence, etc

Some people have weird families or weird parents

-

[zz000ter]

Here is something interesting

One aspect of the Olympic Games many U.S. viewers remain unaware of is the fact that U.S. medalists (like those from many other countries) receive cash prizes along with their medals: $25,000 for gold, $15,000 for silver, and $10,000 for bronze. These rewards are not paid by the International Olympic Committee (which furnishes the medals), but by the U.S. Olympic Committee (just as participants from some other countries receive prizes put up by their home countries' Olympic committees). As <I>Forbes</I> reported in July 2012:

Italy will pay more than $182,000 for a gold medal. Russia’s medal rewards are also quite rich, and the nation’s gold medal winners will collect $135,000. Even Russian bronze medalists will take home $54,400, more than double the payout for American gold. Neighboring Ukraine has been considering an increase to its already rich payout scale: $100,000 for gold, $75,000 for silver and $50,000 for bronze.

Even Ghana promised its gold medal winners a payout of $20,000, not far behind the American reward.

Perhaps surprisingly, the worst medal bonus is paid by Great Britain. Or rather, not paid. The host nation does not pay a performance bonus to medal-winning athletes.


From other sources

The following is a list of bonus offered by different countries, feel free to rectify or add to the list:
Singapore - $708,800 (SGD 1 million)

Philippines - $340,909
Philippine President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo on Friday raised the Olympic incentive to 15 million pesos (340,909 U.S. dollars) for any Filipino athlete who gets a gold medal in Beijing.

Malaysia - $307,000
Malaysia, which has never won an Olympic gold medal, is offering a bonus of one million ringgit (307,000 dollars) to any athlete who can bring home the top prize from the Beijing Games.

Thailand - $300,000
Thai gold medallist at the Beijing Olympics will be rewarded of 10 million baht (about 300,000 U.S. dollars), runner-up will get a six million baht bonus and bronze medallist four million baht.

UAE - $272,000
Also silver medal winners would be paid just over $200,000 while those winning bronze would get $136,000.

Japan - $100,000

Bulgaria - $76,620 (100,000 leva)
Every Bulgarian athlete who wins a gold medal at the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games will receive a 100 000 leva bonus from the Bulgarian state.

Israel - $67,500 (NIS 240,000)
The IOC also announced on Monday that any sportsman who will set a new personal best at Beijing will receive a bonus of NIS 10,000. A winner of a gold medal will be awarded NIS 240,000.

China - $51,000 (350,000 yuan)
Central sports officials in China have not said how high the bonuses they give will be, but the Chinese-language Sports Weekly reported they are likely to hand gold medal winners 350,000 yuan ($51,000) each, plus big payments shared out from sponsors.

Dominican Republic - $30,000
Winners could also get a car. It is the first time the Dominican government has made such an offer.

AUSTRALIAN Olympians are expected to get a $20,000 government bonus for gold medals at Beijing - less than winners from the USA, Japan, Germany, Israel, Thailand, Malaysia, Greece and Russia.

[poedua]

But since they're Chinese athletes, you can't apply those same standards.

And since I'm not from China, I couldn't tell you what an average 16 year old Chinese girl looks like.



Well, if that's the case, then an average 16 year old Chinese girl may not appear any more young in appearance than an average 16 year old American girl.

[Houfes]

yes it is

How can it be?

I would not consider people from China, India or Iran to be the same race, but aren't they all Asians? To me an Asian is just someone from the continent of Asia.

[kingofwale]

Here is something interesting

One aspect of the Olympic Games many U.S. viewers remain unaware of is the fact that U.S. medalists (like those from many other countries) receive cash prizes along with their medals: $25,000 for gold, $15,000 for silver, and $10,000 for bronze. These rewards are not paid by the International Olympic Committee (which furnishes the medals), but by the U.S. Olympic Committee (just as participants from some other countries receive prizes put up by their home countries' Olympic committees). As <I>Forbes</I> reported in July 2012:

Italy will pay more than $182,000 for a gold medal. Russia’s medal rewards are also quite rich, and the nation’s gold medal winners will collect $135,000. Even Russian bronze medalists will take home $54,400, more than double the payout for American gold. Neighboring Ukraine has been considering an increase to its already rich payout scale: $100,000 for gold, $75,000 for silver and $50,000 for bronze.

Even Ghana promised its gold medal winners a payout of $20,000, not far behind the American reward.

Perhaps surprisingly, the worst medal bonus is paid by Great Britain. Or rather, not paid. The host nation does not pay a performance bonus to medal-winning athletes.


From other sources

The following is a list of bonus offered by different countries, feel free to rectify or add to the list:
Singapore - $708,800 (SGD 1 million)

Philippines - $340,909
Philippine President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo on Friday raised the Olympic incentive to 15 million pesos (340,909 U.S. dollars) for any Filipino athlete who gets a gold medal in Beijing.

Malaysia - $307,000
Malaysia, which has never won an Olympic gold medal, is offering a bonus of one million ringgit (307,000 dollars) to any athlete who can bring home the top prize from the Beijing Games.

Thailand - $300,000
Thai gold medallist at the Beijing Olympics will be rewarded of 10 million baht (about 300,000 U.S. dollars), runner-up will get a six million baht bonus and bronze medallist four million baht.

UAE - $272,000
Also silver medal winners would be paid just over $200,000 while those winning bronze would get $136,000.

Japan - $100,000

Bulgaria - $76,620 (100,000 leva)
Every Bulgarian athlete who wins a gold medal at the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games will receive a 100 000 leva bonus from the Bulgarian state.

Israel - $67,500 (NIS 240,000)
The IOC also announced on Monday that any sportsman who will set a new personal best at Beijing will receive a bonus of NIS 10,000. A winner of a gold medal will be awarded NIS 240,000.

China - $51,000 (350,000 yuan)
Central sports officials in China have not said how high the bonuses they give will be, but the Chinese-language Sports Weekly reported they are likely to hand gold medal winners 350,000 yuan ($51,000) each, plus big payments shared out from sponsors.

Dominican Republic - $30,000
Winners could also get a car. It is the first time the Dominican government has made such an offer.

AUSTRALIAN Olympians are expected to get a $20,000 government bonus for gold medals at Beijing - less than winners from the USA, Japan, Germany, Israel, Thailand, Malaysia, Greece and Russia.

also take in PPP into. 51k US for 1 country means you can literally retire and live on interest.

[Katchemash]

This is just whinning cause a certain Canadian ethnicity is getting their butts handed to them by hard working Athletes while Canadians whine on how they don't win cause they are just expecting to win due to their skin colour.

[deltone]

The bolded part is not logical. If I flipped it around and observed that you've never posted a message challenging a Sinophobic post, does that mean you hate the Chinese? Of course, not. FWIW, I only read the first post of that rainwater thread. I deemed it too stupid to read the rest of it.

Certain groups will be more sensitive to outside criticism. At various points in (North American) history, there were groups that responded sharply to any perceived discrimination -- feminists, blacks, gays, Jews, Muslims, natives, etc. Traditionally, the Chinese would not be part of this group, but now they are because of the anti-Chinese bias in the media. (And yes, there is a bias. There is already an anti-American bias and the Americans are our friends. It's ludicrous to believe that the media is perfectly objective when the Chinese are not our friends.)

Try criticizing Jews or Israel on a message board with lots of Jews. Or make a misogynist post on a message board with lots of women. Would the reaction be any less severe?

Well, seeing that you are a recent joiner of RFD, and assuming you aren't a previously banned member under a new username, let me say this. There is no shortage of people who will come to the defense of the Chinese, and I've even been known to throw my defense into the mix on occasion but you wouldn't know that, would you? Also, the point I made about how it's okay to slam Americans (and often Canadians and whites as well) on these boards is true, whether you are aware of that or not. THAT was my point.

[Junigenmukyoku]

Ever heard of google?

asian 5529 up, 1307 down
(Attempting to add a decent, more serious and accurate definition to the lot.)

In the United States, the most common use of the word refers to people originating from East and Southeast Asia (China, Japan, South/North Korea, Vietnam, among others). Indians and Pakistanis might be referred to as South Asians, where as Filipinos and Samoans might be called Pacific Islanders.

In England, "asian" most commonly refers to people of Indian or Pakistani descent, whereas "oriental" might refer to East and Southeast Asians (NOTE: "oriental" is certainly considered politically incorrect in the United States).


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=asian

lmao urban dictionary? You got to be kidding me right?

Being called an Asian means you're geographically tied to that region, it has nothing to do with race. You know like North Americans are from North America, Europeans are from Europe, Africans from Africa, and etc. You might want to look at other sources for your information than urban dictionary.

ps. nice big purple text, it makes you stand out.

[vero95]

Here is something interesting

One aspect of the Olympic Games many U.S. viewers remain unaware of is the fact that U.S. medalists (like those from many other countries) receive cash prizes along with their medals: $25,000 for gold, $15,000 for silver, and $10,000 for bronze. These rewards are not paid by the International Olympic Committee (which furnishes the medals), but by the U.S. Olympic Committee (just as participants from some other countries receive prizes put up by their home countries' Olympic committees). As <I>Forbes</I> reported in July 2012:

Italy will pay more than $182,000 for a gold medal. Russia’s medal rewards are also quite rich, and the nation’s gold medal winners will collect $135,000. Even Russian bronze medalists will take home $54,400, more than double the payout for American gold. Neighboring Ukraine has been considering an increase to its already rich payout scale: $100,000 for gold, $75,000 for silver and $50,000 for bronze.

Even Ghana promised its gold medal winners a payout of $20,000, not far behind the American reward.

Perhaps surprisingly, the worst medal bonus is paid by Great Britain. Or rather, not paid. The host nation does not pay a performance bonus to medal-winning athletes.


From other sources

The following is a list of bonus offered by different countries, feel free to rectify or add to the list:
Singapore - $708,800 (SGD 1 million)

Philippines - $340,909
Philippine President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo on Friday raised the Olympic incentive to 15 million pesos (340,909 U.S. dollars) for any Filipino athlete who gets a gold medal in Beijing.

Malaysia - $307,000
Malaysia, which has never won an Olympic gold medal, is offering a bonus of one million ringgit (307,000 dollars) to any athlete who can bring home the top prize from the Beijing Games.

Thailand - $300,000
Thai gold medallist at the Beijing Olympics will be rewarded of 10 million baht (about 300,000 U.S. dollars), runner-up will get a six million baht bonus and bronze medallist four million baht.

UAE - $272,000
Also silver medal winners would be paid just over $200,000 while those winning bronze would get $136,000.

Japan - $100,000

Bulgaria - $76,620 (100,000 leva)
Every Bulgarian athlete who wins a gold medal at the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games will receive a 100 000 leva bonus from the Bulgarian state.

Israel - $67,500 (NIS 240,000)
The IOC also announced on Monday that any sportsman who will set a new personal best at Beijing will receive a bonus of NIS 10,000. A winner of a gold medal will be awarded NIS 240,000.

China - $51,000 (350,000 yuan)
Central sports officials in China have not said how high the bonuses they give will be, but the Chinese-language Sports Weekly reported they are likely to hand gold medal winners 350,000 yuan ($51,000) each, plus big payments shared out from sponsors.

Dominican Republic - $30,000
Winners could also get a car. It is the first time the Dominican government has made such an offer.

AUSTRALIAN Olympians are expected to get a $20,000 government bonus for gold medals at Beijing - less than winners from the USA, Japan, Germany, Israel, Thailand, Malaysia, Greece and Russia.

looks to me that Canada pays the most for bronze medals :|

[kingofwale]

looks to me that Canada pays the most for bronze medals :|

considering that the articile didn't list most of what countries pay for bronze.. and ones who did "Russian" and UAE pays way more than what Canada does.

I'd say you failed.

[vero95]

considering that the articile didn't list most of what countries pay for bronze.. and ones who did "Russian" and UAE pays way more than what Canada does.

I'd say you failed.

that was a simple conclusion from the number of bronze medals we got

[kingofwale]

that was a simple conclusion from the number of bronze medals we got

heck, if that's the case, Korea and China should pay for disqualification. ;)

[Aznsilvrboy]

Armenia:

Gold - 700k Euros (highest in the world)

Azerbaijan:

Gold - 640k Euros (second highest in the world)

Singapore:

Gold - $708,800 (SGD 1million, 3rd highest in the world)

Taiwan:

Gold - NT$12 million($400k, 4th highest in the world)
Silver - NT$7 million ($233k)
Bronze - NT$5 million ($166k)
4th - NT$3 million ($100k)
5th/6th - NT$1.5 million ($50k)
7th/8th - NT$900k ($30k)

Taiwanese rewards are tax free.

[Simaahoy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5MJbZ4l4J8

Asian parents seems pretty strict

[mucat]

What's the deal with an age limit ?

Again, perhaps this is yet another concept the Chinese Olympic Federation doesn't fully grasp...it's ( i.e an age limit ) something we here in Canada call....RULES !

Yes, Canada always follow the rules!!!

[Mr.Sea]

If the athlete didn't make the effort to get in touch with the grandparents for that long, I'm sure they don't care about them. This news story fails.

[kingofwale]

If the athlete didn't make the effort to get in touch with the grandparents for that long, I'm sure they don't care about them. This news story fails.

don't make the effect or not allowed???

[jaxx lite]

don't make the effort or not allowed???


Reality:
some people don't make the effort to visit their parents, their grandparents, their relatives, etc

they leave home and never go back

=

[jaxx lite]

"Wu began training daily at a diving camp at the age of 6. By the time she was 16, she had left home to be installed in a government aquatic sports institute." I assume she saw her mom on a daily basis till 16. I'm sure she had some feelings.

If a kid spent a lot of time studying at school and training to be an athlete
and her parents worked
- it's possible that she did not spend much time with her parents
and would see them as strangers

when you have kids
you and your wife will probably go to work
and your kid will be raised by a nanny, grandparent, daycare worker, etc
- your kid will become more attached to her caregiver than with her parents
- your kid will think of her parents as strangers who come home at night
= the truth

-

[kingofwale]

If a kid spent a lot of time studying at school and training to be an athlete
and her parents worked
- it's possible that she did not spend much time with her parents
and would see them as strangers

when you have kids
you and your wife will probably go to work
and your kid will be raised by a nanny, grandparent, daycare worker, etc
- your kid will become more attached to her caregiver than with her parents
- your kid will think of her parents as strangers who come home at night
= the truth

-

I don't think you quite know what "installed in a government aquatic sports institute" really means here.

that means you sleep there, you eat there, you work there (in this case. work = practice) and you live and breath there. I wonder if she even gets to see their parents at all for past year.

If she did, it wouldn't be too hard to have a passing remark about her grandpa.

[LostInTruth]

i have to agree with jadoocian. it's one thing to make a generalization about americans, however to make a generalization about a specific race can be construed as being racist.

Yup, but Im sure if this thread was about a specific race it would already be bombarded with senseless comments. I love how those who say otherwise, are now harmonious for equality:)

[mucat]

I agree with Shaner somewhat.. Most chinese people I know, perhaps most of them are totally heartless and a selfish to their own needs and not their families or friends. Remember the story of the chinese teen who jumped into a river to save an entire family from drowning? He eventually drowned because he was too tired and the last person he saved to shore would not help him out of the water and instead, walked away and said that it was none of his business..

You know what. People with similar values gravitate towards each others. ;)

[Jimboski]

I agree with Shaner somewhat.. Most chinese people I know, perhaps most of them are totally heartless and a selfish to their own needs and not their families or friends. Remember the story of the chinese teen who jumped into a river to save an entire family from drowning? He eventually drowned because he was too tired and the last person he saved to shore would not help him out of the water and instead, walked away and said that it was none of his business..

Wtf...?
That sucks..

[mucat]

Wtf...?
That sucks..

Found it:
http://www.whatsondalian.com/news-4479-heartless-family-of-4-saved-by-hero-in-river-then-leave-him-drown-to-death.html

[Jimboski]

Found it:
http://www.whatsondalian.com/news-4479-heartless-family-of-4-saved-by-hero-in-river-then-leave-him-drown-to-death.html

Thanks for the link..
I'm speechless.

[trixstar]

don't get me wrong. There are plenty of of good chinese people out there that I know of and my gf is half chinese too. Her dad was vietnamese but he died of cancer a while back and her entire home right now is 100% chinese with the exception of herself. She was raised until she was a young teenager by her vietnamese aunts so her values are slightly different then her family that she lives with at the moment. Since I stay at her place during the summer months, I have learned a great deal of how important money is and how money is more important then the life of a family member. Honest to god I am only dating my gf because she doesn't have anything in common with her family. We both have plans to move to Australia together to be further away from her family.

[mucat]

don't get me wrong. There are plenty of of good chinese people out there that I know of and my gf is half chinese too. Her dad was vietnamese but he died of cancer a while back and her entire home right now is 100% chinese with the exception of herself. She was raised until she was a young teenager by her vietnamese aunts so her values are slightly different then her family that she lives with at the moment. Since I stay at her place during the summer months, I have learned a great deal of how important money is and how money is more important then the life of a family member. Honest to god I am only dating my gf because she doesn't have anything in common with her family. We both have plans to move to Australia together to be further away from her family.

I don't think it has anything to do with chinese or asian. I am a chinese so I know what you are talking about. But it also happens to other races and I know some of them. The problem is not racial, it is about money.
Most of you guys need to understand people all around the world from different countries, most of them are doing exactly what you are doing everyday, going to work, getting off work, start a family, feed the family, talk **** about other people from other countries. Exactly the same, there are some good people, some bad people, some smart people, some dumb people, I bet the ratio of good/bad people is about the same everywhere.

[trixstar]

I don't think it has anything to do with chinese or asian. I am a chinese so I know what you are talking about. But it also happens to other races and I know some of them. The problem is not racial, it is about money.
Most of you guys need to understand people all around the world from different countries, most of them are doing exactly what you are doing everyday, going to work, getting off work, start a family, feed the family, talk **** about other people from other countries. Exactly the same, there are some good people, some bad people, some smart people, some dumb people, I bet the ratio of good/bad people is about the same everywhere.

i agree 100%. Since this thread was a more chinese thread so i figured i should be relevant to the topic

[divx]

No, I did not say the Chinese parents do not know about it. I don't know how you get that idea. I am saying Chinese parents of those poor kids in China knowingly allow that to happen and Canadian parents would not.

you may not be aware of this, but historically chinese teaching methods is based on child abuse, what's more unfortunate is that it works.

[divx]

You didn't answer my question.

Again.

If there is a minimum 16 year age limit for women's gymnastics , do you think the Chinese Olympic officials should abide by those rules ?

One word answer is all I need from you .....YES or NO ?

yes

[manmanny]

you may not be aware of this, but historically chinese teaching methods is based on child abuse, what's more unfortunate is that it works.

I think he is gone too far.
THEO MOUDAKIS

http://i.thestar.com/images/15/48/b96116b847f68cd7671c34858b61.jpg

Last time Star had opologize for their cartoon on latest Scarborough shooting, shooting.

[mucat]

you may not be aware of this, but historically chinese teaching methods is based on child abuse, what's more unfortunate is that it works.

Huh !!!!????? You can't be serious.

[laihama]

you may not be aware of this, but historically chinese teaching methods is based on child abuse, what's more unfortunate is that it works.
Yup. Research how Shaolin Monks train their young disciples.

Read about Jackie Chan's early life. Considering Jackie's success now, I say the training was worth it.
http://www.jackiechankids.com/files/Jackie_Bio.htm

When Jackie was 7 years old his father took a job as the head cook at the American embassy in Australia. He could not bring Jackie with him, so he enrolled him in the China Drama Academy where Jackie would live for the next 10 years of his life.

During Jackie's time at the school, he learned martial arts, acrobatics, singing, and acting. The school was meant to prepare boys for a life in the Peking Opera. Chinese opera was very different from any other kind of opera. It included singing, tumbling, and acrobatics as well as martial arts skills and acting. Students at the school were not treated kindly at all. They were given just enough food to survive. They were beaten if they disobeyed or if they made mistakes. It was a very harsh and difficult life but Jackie had nowhere else to go, so he stayed. He hardly saw his parents at all for many years.

[mucat]

Yup. Research how Shaolin Monks train their young disciples.

Read about Jackie Chan's early life. Considering Jackie's success now, I say the training was worth it.
http://www.jackiechankids.com/files/Jackie_Bio.htm

You mean most of them were poor, so they don't have enough to eat. As for "beaten", you can call it "physical punishment". I heard parents also did it here not too long ago.
Sometimes a few words changes can affect the tone of the sentence.

[deltone]

What the heck are you trash talking about?

Isn't what you do in every post of your is Whining?

Ignore the troll. He's not for real. Do a little check of his posts since he joined. He has a problem keeping his story straight. OBVIOUS troll is OBVIOUS.

[manmanny]

Ignore the troll. He's not for real. Do a little check of his posts since he joined. He has a problem keeping his story straight. OBVIOUS troll is OBVIOUS.

If I post "he is trolling" then Mods warn me instead of warning this one. How stupid Mods can get?

[deltone]

You're a ******* racist.

I would bet money he's just a $**t disturber. He's trying to make people fight. Seriously, read his posts since he joined. One minute he owns a house and has fence issues, or some sort of outdoor problem. Then he's a student. Not only is he a student, he's a foreign student from some country that's name escapes me. He is being funded by the government of said country, one minute, and then the next minute he's asking questions about OSAP, and one minute he doesn't pay taxes in this horrible country called Canada. He's only here for a lousy piece of paper. Oh, and he is promised a government job in this beautiful country that he came from. Oh, but wait, next thing you know, he is a taxpayer and complains about where his tax dollars go. Oh, and then he has a promised job with the UN. All the time, insulting Canada and anything western. As I said, OBVIOUS troll is OBVIOUS and I'm not sure why he hasn't received a perma ban but then again, even if he does, he'll reappear again under another name, just like he probably has done many times before. His posts are full of negative insulting garbage from day one. Oh, and I do apologize for feeding the troll after I advised other to not do so. He loves the attention. As a matter of fact, he craves it. Kind of makes you feel sorry for such a pathetic being.

[manmanny]

I would bet money he's just a $**t disturber. He's trying to make people fight. Seriously, read his posts since he joined. One minute he owns a house and has fence issues, or some sort of outdoor problem. Then he's a student. Not only is he a student, he's a foreign student from some country that's name escapes me. He is being funded by the government of said country, one minute, and then the next minute he's asking questions about OSAP, and one minute he doesn't pay taxes in this horrible country called Canada. He's only here for a lousy piece of paper. Oh, and he is promised a government job in this beautiful country that he came from. Oh, but wait, next thing you know, he is a taxpayer and complains about where his tax dollars go. Oh, and then he has a promised job with the UN. All the time, insulting Canada and anything western. As I said, OBVIOUS troll is OBVIOUS and I'm not sure why he hasn't received a perma ban but then again, even if he does, he'll reappear again under another name, just like he probably has done many times before. His posts are full of negative insulting garbage from day one. Oh, and I do apologize for feeding the troll after I advised other to not do so. He loves the attention. As a matter of fact, he craves it. Kind of makes you feel sorry for such a pathetic being.

True.

[gman]

you may not be aware of this, but historically chinese teaching methods is based on child abuse, what's more unfortunate is that it works.

"Historically", almost every country was the same. It is just how far back you look at it. FYI, I am Chinese and I am way older than you are. What happened in the history does not mean it should continue to happen. It does not mean it is okay to endorse it (I am not saying you are).

[manmanny]

"Historically", almost every country was the same. It is just how far back you look at it. FYI, I am Chinese and I am way older than you are. What happened in the history does not mean it should continue to happen. It does not mean it is okay to endorse it (I am not saying you are).

Well said gman.

[Rehan]

The Chinese are (obviously) not the only ones that make big sacrifices for the sake of sports...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/olympics/us-gymnast-gabby-douglass-long-journey-to-gold/article4459577/

To become the Olympic champion in the individual all-around event, Gabby Douglas first had to leave everything she knew best.

She had to pack up her bedroom in Virginia Beach, Va., where she lived with her mother, two sisters and brother. She had to say goodbye to her two dogs, who used to sleep in her bed, and bid farewell to the beach, where she loved to ride waves on her boogie board.

...

So off she went about 1,900 kilometres to West Des Moines, Iowa, to train with a coach from China and live with a white family she had never met. ... Goobye family, hello Olympic dream.

[gman]

The Chinese are (obviously) not the only ones that make big sacrifices for the sake of sports...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/olympics/us-gymnast-gabby-douglass-long-journey-to-gold/article4459577/
Goobye family, hello Olympic dream.

Yes but Gabby only left her family for 2 years. I am not saying that is not hard.

[mucat]

I think success in anything requires certain degree of sacrifice. It is a given.
But of course, when someone else do it, it is cruel and heartless, and when one of us do it, it is patriotic and heroistic.

[gman]

I think success in anything requires certain degree of sacrifice. It is a given.
But of course, when someone else do it, it is cruel and heartless, and when one of us do it, it is patriotic and heroistic.

I think it is more if you do it, it is patriotic and heroistic but if you force another person to do it, it is cruel and heartless.

[mucat]

I think it is more if you do it, it is patriotic and heroistic but if you force another person to do it, it is cruel and heartless.

Guess what all the "hockey parents", "soccer moms", "piano dads" or whatever they are, are doing. And they are not in China.
As a parent myself, I see this happens all the time here.
To be fair, it really depends on the kid, some kids can take the heat and pressure and they stride from it. Some kids will just totally burn out. So again, it depends. But it happens all the time right in our own background.

[gman]

Guess what all the "hockey parents", "soccer moms", "piano dads" or whatever they are, are doing. And they are not in China.
As a parent myself, I see this happens all the time here.
To be fair, it really depends on the kid, some kids can take the heat and pressure and they stride from it. Some kids will just totally burn out. So again, it depends. But it happens all the time right in our own background.

I consider all of them cruel and heartless if they force their kids to do something they don't want to do especially when they know their kids are suffering.

[mucat]

I consider all of them cruel and heartless if they force their kids to do something they don't want to do especially when they know their kids are suffering.

But the thing you need to understand is, some kids they will grow into liking the sport or whatever activity and make a successful career out of it. It is not as simple as black or white.

[deltone]

I think it is more if you do it, it is patriotic and heroistic but if you force another person to do it, it is cruel and heartless.

You have made a lot of wise posts in this thread. (not saying I'm shocked or surprised, LOL, just that I like what you've been saying in this thread).

[mucat]

Delete. Totally misread on my part.

[deltone]

At the end of the day, we all have different opinions and different thoughts as we've all been raised differently. Even within a marriage, there is often dispute as to how the kids will be raised, espeically if the parents come from different cultures. My husband is Italian, and I'm several generation Canadian with a Scottish background which means nothing to me as I've never been there, have no interest in going there and have no interest in anything Scottish (although I have nothing against it either).

That being said, many times through the years my husband and I have disagreed on certain things when it came to raising the kids. He was far more lenient than I. We will never have an agreement amongst all of the posters in these threads but I think as long as the posters treat each other with respect (if deserved) then it's a learning experience for all. Learning about how different cultures do things is rather interesting, as far as I'm concerned.

[mucat]

That being said, many times through the years my husband and I have disagreed on certain things when it came to raising the kids. He was far more lenient than I.

It is the same for me and my wife. I am the more strict one. However, I think it is actually beneficial to have 2 different opinions and 2 different point of views, as long as both the parents can come to a decision peacefully.
Luckily, my kids are very good and listen to us most of the time, I really can't ask for more.

As for those Olympic parents, it is sometimes a curse, you know your kids got talents, experts tell you your kids fot talents. Now, how hard should you help/push them? Push vs help is a very fine line.

[deltone]

I agree. I personally wouldn't have ever gone along with any of my sons being billotted out (living with others while playing hockey) as they are my kids and I didn't have them to send them packing at a young age. (Disclaimer: None of my kids had the sort of hockey talent that would have required this sort of drastic measure anyway). I know others who have done it and while I don't agree with it, who am I to criticize them as it's truly none of my business. My daughter had a boyfriend in highschool who was from Maine. He spent all of his highschool years in our town and went on to university here in Canada. It was all so he could play hockey here. He didn't go on to bigger and greater things and while I feel bad that he didn't live with his parents all of those important years, it somehow worked out for them. I met his parents and actually visited them in Maine and they were fine people who loved their son and they felt they were doing the right thing. Did they do the right thing? I don't know. I know it wouldn't be the right thing for me, or my kids but I suppose for them it was the right thing.

[mucat]

I agree. I personally wouldn't have ever gone along with any of my sons being billotted out (living with others while playing hockey) as they are my kids and I didn't have them to send them packing at a young age. (Disclaimer: None of my kids had the sort of hockey talent that would have required this sort of drastic measure anyway). I know others who have done it and while I don't agree with it, who am I to criticize them as it's truly none of my business. My daughter had a boyfriend in highschool who was from Maine. He spent all of his highschool years in our town and went on to university here in Canada. It was all so he could play hockey here. He didn't go on to bigger and greater things and while I feel bad that he didn't live with his parents all of those important years, it somehow worked out for them. I met his parents and actually visited them in Maine and they were fine people who loved their son and they felt they were doing the right thing. Did they do the right thing? I don't know. I know it wouldn't be the right thing for me, or my kids but I suppose for them it was the right thing.

:) But let's say some well known hockey experts tell you your kid is going to be the next Sidney Crosby and they never seen a kid this talented before. However, you are not living in a hockey city or country. So if you pursuit this goal, you will have to move you whole family or just move the kid. :)

But anyway, even if you live in a hockey city, you (most of us) will probably put in full (financial) support to pursuit this. And before you know it, you are push the kid...hard.

This is actually not far-fetched because I know people that this actually happened to them long time ago (not hockey though).

[deltone]

:) But let's say some well known hockey experts tell you your kid is going to be the next Sidney Crosby and they never seen a kid this talented before. However, you are not living in a hockey city or country. So if you pursuit this goal, you will have to move you whole family or just move the kid. :)

But anyway, even if you live in a hockey city, you (most of us) will probably put in full (financial) support to pursuit this. And before you know it, you are push the kid...hard.

This is actually not far-fetched because I know people that this actually happened to them long time ago (not hockey though).

I used to work with a gal who had a son who was VERY good in hockey. Just a kid but very good. His parents sacrificed (a LOT), in money and time. The kid was a little creep. He was obnoxious, selfish, conceited. A real prima donna. Anyhow, they never had to send him away or anything but when he was in his late teens he went and played for some farm team. He made it to the NHL and he's very well known and guess what. He's still an obnoxious, selfish little puke. He doesn't even treat his parents well, at all. He's very disrespectful to them and a good friend of mine is very good friends with the mother. (I only worked with her but never became friends with her). My friend tells me a lot of the crap this guy does to his parents. Not sure why he's such a little creep but he is. Anyhow, I'm not sure how his folks feel about all the sacrifices they made for this ungrateful little jerk but I suppose they're okay with it. The guy is making a ton of money but he his character sucks. (No, I'm not going to say his name as that would be wrong but suffice to say, anyone who follows hockey knows this guy. I don't follow hockey at all and I've heard of him, outside the "connection" I have with his mom.)

[gman]

I agree. I personally wouldn't have ever gone along with any of my sons being billotted out (living with others while playing hockey) as they are my kids and I didn't have them to send them packing at a young age. (Disclaimer: None of my kids had the sort of hockey talent that would have required this sort of drastic measure anyway). I know others who have done it and while I don't agree with it, who am I to criticize them as it's truly none of my business. My daughter had a boyfriend in highschool who was from Maine. He spent all of his highschool years in our town and went on to university here in Canada. It was all so he could play hockey here. He didn't go on to bigger and greater things and while I feel bad that he didn't live with his parents all of those important years, it somehow worked out for them. I met his parents and actually visited them in Maine and they were fine people who loved their son and they felt they were doing the right thing. Did they do the right thing? I don't know. I know it wouldn't be the right thing for me, or my kids but I suppose for them it was the right thing.

This is tough call. Lets say, when your kid is 14 and you find out your kid is a genius. Princeton wants your kid to study there this September and provides a full scholarship with living expense. Will you let him go? This assume you have to stay here because of other obligations such as you have other kids to take care of.

[deltone]

This is tough call. Lets say, when your kid is 14 and you find out your kid is a genius. Princeton wants your kid to study there this September and provides a full scholarship with living expense. Will you let him go? This assume you have to stay here because of other obligations such as you have other kids to take care of.

I know what you're saying but I'm not sure what I would do. I "think" I would not let him go but then again, something tells me I "might" let him go. It's a tough call because if it's going to make a difference in the kid's future, then why would I want to put up roadblocks but at the same time, it's my kid and I want to be the one to raise my own kid. I do know someone who actually had this happen. The kid (she's now a grown woman, a lawyer, living in Chicago) but when she was a kid, she was offerend just that. A scholarship to go to some private boarding school in the US. She remained there, even though her parents live in Canada and she did eventually marry and stay there. It worked for them but I'm just not sure I could go along with such a thing. I figure if the kids THAT bright, he or she should do okay anyway.

Anyhow, it's an interesting question and I'm being honest when I say I really don't know what I would do.

[mucat]

I used to work with a gal who had a son who was VERY good in hockey. Just a kid but very good. His parents sacrificed (a LOT), in money and time. The kid was a little creep. He was obnoxious, selfish, conceited. A real prima donna. Anyhow, they never had to send him away or anything but when he was in his late teens he went and played for some farm team. He made it to the NHL and he's very well known and guess what. He's still an obnoxious, selfish little puke. He doesn't even treat his parents well, at all. He's very disrespectful to them and a good friend of mine is very good friends with the mother. (I only worked with her but never became friends with her). My friend tells me a lot of the crap this guy does to his parents. Not sure why he's such a little creep but he is. Anyhow, I'm not sure how his folks feel about all the sacrifices they made for this ungrateful little jerk but I suppose they're okay with it. The guy is making a ton of money but he his character sucks. (No, I'm not going to say his name as that would be wrong but suffice to say, anyone who follows hockey knows this guy. I don't follow hockey at all and I've heard of him, outside the "connection" I have with his mom.)

Yes, feel bad for the parents. They were really stuck at that position and they could do nothing else. Well, as least the kid turn out to be a success, I guess.

[mucat]

This is tough call. Lets say, when your kid is 14 and you find out your kid is a genius. Princeton wants your kid to study there this September and provides a full scholarship with living expense. Will you let him go? This assume you have to stay here because of other obligations such as you have other kids to take care of.

Damn, this sounds like someone I know (again). Multiple prestige universities want the kid to study there. Schools actually provide flight tickets to fly you there to check out the campus. Professors invite you to their home to have supper. It is crazy.
But going to university is a little bit different. The kid is already "young adult". And if he/she is that good in school, he/she ought to be a very independent and responsible kid. So it is really not the parents decision. The parents usually just laugh in their sleep.

Edit: Typo again, need sleep...

[gman]

I know what you're saying but I'm not sure what I would do. I "think" I would not let him go but then again, something tells me I "might" let him go. It's a tough call because if it's going to make a difference in the kid's future, then why would I want to put up roadblocks but at the same time, it's my kid and I want to be the one to raise my own kid. I do know someone who actually had this happen. The kid (she's now a grown woman, a lawyer, living in Chicago) but when she was a kid, she was offerend just that. A scholarship to go to some private boarding school in the US. She remained there, even though her parents live in Canada and she did eventually marry and stay there. It worked for them but I'm just not sure I could go along with such a thing. I figure if the kids THAT bright, he or she should do okay anyway.

Anyhow, it's an interesting question and I'm being honest when I say I really don't know what I would do.

As I started with "It is a tough call", it is a tough call. The tough part is not about the decision. The tough part is you know regardless which decision you choose, it will totally change the life of the kid. There is no right or wrong decision. Both can be right and both can be wrong because we cannot see the future.

Usually, I would do the coward thing by sticking with one decision (including "kid, you decide") and never bring up "what if" in the rest of my life. ..... However, I cannot stop the kid to bring that up in the future though. :(

[aplayaz2000]

Some people don't fit in any of the catergories you mean like kids in the future? after being mixed so much they cannot be categorized at all through ethnicity

thus the future of the human race
long live sacred germany

[divx]

Huh !!!!????? You can't be serious.

speaking from experience, yes, i'm dead serious.

[divx]

"Historically", almost every country was the same. It is just how far back you look at it. FYI, I am Chinese and I am way older than you are. What happened in the history does not mean it should continue to happen. It does not mean it is okay to endorse it (I am not saying you are).

I'm looking at the years between 4000BC to 1997 AD. I do not endorse child abuse at all, it's a such horrible country.

[gman]

I'm looking at the years between 4000BC to 1997 AD. I do not endorse child abuse at all, it's a such horrible country.

Are you suggesting there was no child abuse in other countries within the years you mentioned? And China is the only one? Or, you mean to say something else? I am a bit slow today.

[divx]

^I'm just saying child abuse has been engraved into the Chinese culture, will be a hard thing to change when they've done it for thousands of years. What's more important, is that these widely accepted child abuse does generate results, in which case, is child abuse justified?

[poedua]

^I'm just saying child abuse has been engraved into the Chinese culture, will be a hard thing to change when they've done it for thousands of years. What's more important, is that these widely accepted child abuse does generate results, in which case, is child abuse justified?

Child abuse is never justified IMO...whether child abuse has been engraved into the Chinese culture or not in my view.

btw ...you seem well versed on Chinese culture, do you have Chinese parents by any chance ?

[gman]

^I'm just saying child abuse has been engraved into the Chinese culture, will be a hard thing to change when they've done it for thousands of years.
I disagree. It is not hard to change at all. I am a Chinese parent. I don't see the need to push the kids to do something they don't want to do.


What's more important, is that these widely accepted child abuse does generate results, in which case, is child abuse justified?

I disagree for both.

It is not the Chinese culture that caused child abuse. It is the uneducated people and poverty that caused that. Yes, there are a lot of in China, unfortunately.
The same thing can happen to any countries that has the similar condition.

[Aznsilvrboy]

I disagree. It is not hard to change at all. I am a Chinese parent. I don't see the need to push the kids to do something they don't want to do.



I disagree for both.

It is not the Chinese culture that caused child abuse. It is the uneducated people and poverty that caused that. Yes, there are a lot of in China, unfortunately.
The same thing can happen to any countries that has the similar condition.

You can change because you probably had western influences or education. You are not living under the "system". It's a different story when you're living under the system. Chinese people like to compare and be better than each other, so they constantly push their kids (child abuse) to reach for the top. When everybody else is comparing and when your teachers compare you with other classmates at school, you just end up being the same, because it's "normal". Most people are normal within their own society.

[yucksta]

Olympic gold medals are more rare than grandparents. They are old and they're going to die anyway. If this is what it took to win, it's not that terrible.

[divx]

You can change because you probably had western influences or education. You are not living under the "system". It's a different story when you're living under the system. Chinese people like to compare and be better than each other, so they constantly push their kids (child abuse) to reach for the top. When everybody else is comparing and when your teachers compare you with other classmates at school, you just end up being the same, because it's "normal". Most people are normal within their own society.
finally someone who gets it. it matters not what poedua and gman thinks regarding this issue, everyone try to be the norm of their society so that will definitely continue. It is only natural for gman to be less abusive than his parents because we are striving to conform to the norm of this society.

[mucat]

You can change because you probably had western influences or education. You are not living under the "system". It's a different story when you're living under the system. Chinese people like to compare and be better than each other, so they constantly push their kids (child abuse) to reach for the top. When everybody else is comparing and when your teachers compare you with other classmates at school, you just end up being the same, because it's "normal". Most people are normal within their own society.

Pushing the kids is not child abuse.

I think first, you need to define what is child abuse. Delay information about grandparent's death is NOT child abuse.

[blzn]

I don't get the big deal.. if she was close to her grand parents how the hell did she go a year without talking to them? Lol child abuse.

[laihama]

It's not really a Chinese thing anyway. I'm reminded of Russell Peters' line, "Someone's gonna get hurt real bad!". And I heard stories about corporal punishment among the older generation of Canadians. Some classic quotes are, "If you're going to cry, I'm going to give you a reason to cry" and "I don't care who started it, I'm going to end it." And when you see your dad taking out the belt, you know you're in deep sh*t.

Child abuse is raising a spoiled brat who does not respect elders. (You should never swear at your parents.)

"Time-outs" are stupid.

[Aznsilvrboy]

Pushing the kids is not child abuse.

I think first, you need to define what is child abuse. Delay information about grandparent's death is NOT child abuse.

If you know how Asian parents push their kids I think you will think it's child abuse. Let me give you a quick sample:

Wake up at like 6-7am and go to school until 5pm, then stay after class for "self study" or go to cram school until like 9-10pm, then go home and do homework until 12-1am while eating whatever scrappy supper you can get, then "take a nap" for a few hours, then wake up and do the same thing day in and day out. It's common for children to be "disciplined" by their parents and teachers for "underachieving" using tools such as clothes hangers, belts and methods like kneeling down on an abacus for extended time. There's a reason why Asians tend to be more myopic, shorter than westerners. They are mentally and physically deprived.

I'm not referring to the specific case of delaying information about grandparent's death, just on the situation of child abuse in general.

[mucat]

If you know how Asian parents push their kids I think you will think it's child abuse. Let me give you a quick sample:

Wake up at like 6-7am and go to school until 5pm, then stay after class for "self study" or go to cram school until like 9-10pm, then go home and do homework until 12-1am while eating whatever scrappy supper you can get, then "take a nap" for a few hours, then wake up and do the same thing day in and day out. It's common for children to be "disciplined" by their parents and teachers for "underachieving" using tools such as clothes hangers, belts and methods like kneeling down on an abacus for extended time. There's a reason why Asians tend to be more myopic, shorter and physically inferior to westerners. They are mentally and physically deprived.

I'm not referring to the specific case of delaying information about grandparent's death, just on the situation of child abuse in general.

But did you deserve it? What did you do wrong?

Let's just say I have been there and done that long time ago. And I deserve pretty much all of it and I am glad my parents beat some sense into me. I think we "were" physical inferior because most of us in asian were poorer back then, NOT because of "physical abuse". It is not like my parents were eating steaks and I were eating only rice. But if your parents were like that, then I am sorry.

[Aznsilvrboy]

But did you deserve it? What did you do wrong?

Let's just say I have been there and done that long time ago. And I deserve pretty much all of it and I am glad my parents beat some sense into me. I think we "were" physical inferior because most of us in asian were poorer back then, NOT because of "physical abuse". It is not like my parents were eating steaks and I were eating only rice. But if your parents were like that, then I am sorry.

You pretty much miss your growth potential during puberty if you do that routine every day. They get it for "underachieving" which can mean many things to different people. To some parents it can mean your writing is not like the typed font, others can mean you scored under 90% or ranked outside of top 3 in your class. People who are supposed to guide you and lead you by example end up humiliating you and degrading you through verbal abuse and physical abuse like telling your classmates to take turns beating you. I'm pretty sure Asian kids can grow a few inches taller and have much better eyesight if they weren't subject to this type of treatment. This has nothing to do with me as I was raised here.

[mucat]

You pretty much miss your growth potential during puberty if you do that routine every day. They get it for "underachieving" which can mean many things to different people. To some parents it can mean your writing is not like the typed font, others can mean you scored under 90% or ranked outside of top 3 in your class. I'm pretty sure Asian kids can grow a few inches taller and have much better eyesight if they weren't subject to this type of treatment. This has nothing to do with me as I was raised here.

Ha ha, then let's just say I have more experience about this than you. And I do agree with lots of the things you said and those things did run through my mind many times. But on the other hands, we have spoiled brats here. And also increasingly in HK (so I heard) because they (parents) are moving away from physical punishment. All I can say is, it depends on the kid, different kids need different way to teach them, mold them. There are no one method fit all.

As for asian being shorter because of abuse, I can tell you that's not true. While there were a lot of "physical punishment" back then, parents still give the best they can to their kids. It is just everyone is poorer back then, and I have visited mainland 30 years ago and they were ever poorer.

[divx]

But did you deserve it? What did you do wrong?

Let's just say I have been there and done that long time ago. And I deserve pretty much all of it and I am glad my parents beat some sense into me. I think we "were" physical inferior because most of us in asian were poorer back then, NOT because of "physical abuse". It is not like my parents were eating steaks and I were eating only rice. But if your parents were like that, then I am sorry.

so another vote for approving child abuse if it delivers results? huuuuuuurrrrrrraaayyy for more child abuse, I be waiting for poedua's smack down on ya.

[gman]

You can change because you probably had western influences or education. You are not living under the "system". It's a different story when you're living under the system. Chinese people like to compare and be better than each other, so they constantly push their kids (child abuse) to reach for the top. When everybody else is comparing and when your teachers compare you with other classmates at school, you just end up being the same, because it's "normal". Most people are normal within their own society.

Yes and no. Yes, the reason can be norm of the society. However, the norm of the society in certain part of China is poverty. Because of poverty, parents tend to pressure their kid so that they can have "better future" than they are. In the richer city, with single child policy, rich parents tend not to do much physical abuse to their kids. Their kids are kings.

e.g. in Hong Kong, it used to be a parent tried to feed 7 kids. Their attention to individual kid is little. Hence, they used what they thought is effective and fast (without thinking about long term effect).

These days, it is 7 "parents" feeding 1 kid (father, mother, 2 grandfathers, 2 grandmothers and a maid) and 6 of them are rich. Hence, now, there are a lot of spoiled child in Hong Kong.
In the rich city in China, similar thing happens.

IMO, all these happened because people are too poor or too rich. As I said, poverty and not enough education cause that. If you are rich enough, your kids do not need to compete as hard.

Since I came from Hong Kong, I use Hong Kong as an example again. If you are not rich, your kid need to compete before they are born. These days, start with getting a bed in hospital so that the baby can be delivered. Then, they need to fight to get into a decent kindergarten, primary school, high school and then University. You may ask why University? Okay, you also need to fight to get into college, to get a job, etc. If the parents are rich enough, all the "problems" can be easily solved.

[EbonyRose]

You pretty much miss your growth potential during puberty if you do that routine every day. They get it for "underachieving" which can mean many things to different people. To some parents it can mean your writing is not like the typed font, others can mean you scored under 90% or ranked outside of top 3 in your class. People who are supposed to guide you and lead you by example end up humiliating you and degrading you through verbal abuse and physical abuse like telling your classmates to take turns beating you. I'm pretty sure Asian kids can grow a few inches taller and have much better eyesight if they weren't subject to this type of treatment. This has nothing to do with me as I was raised here.

lol, I was raised here and I still went through a lot of the same things. I am not kidding when I say this, but one time I came home with 99% on a test and instead of saying good job, they asked me what happened to the other 1%. Growing up, I was never allowed to play with other kids. My parents wanted me away from white kids, because they were "bad influences" and they didn't want me hanging out with Asian kids, because they thought I'd join a gang (I'm serious :facepalm:). Every weekend they'd drive me to the public library and leave me there. When I was in grade 2/3 they decided it was time I learned the multiplication tables. They would give me the table, give me 30 minutes to memorize it and make me regurgitate it while they held a thin stick made of plexi glass. If I was wrong, I'd get called an idiot and beaten. Then they would yell at me for crying and tell me to shut up and go study it again. Needless to say, I never failed a second time.

[mucat]

so another vote for approving child abuse if it delivers results? huuuuuuurrrrrrraaayyy for more child abuse, I be waiting for poedua's smack down on ya.

Like I said before, you first define what is child abuse, then we can discuss. Throwing terms around and negatively label others is just a form of discrimination (IMO) and it will get us nowhere.

[divx]

Like I said before, you first define what is child abuse, then we can discuss. Throwing terms around and negatively label others is just a form of discrimination (IMO) and it will get us nowhere.

hmmm, how about beat the kid then make him stand for long time that he end up puking white stuff and collapses? what about when teachers/parents beat their kid to death? what about when kid fought back and killed the teacher? do you see abuse somewhere here? if not you should get your eyes checked out. child abuse is so widely apparent i can't believe you are actually question its popularity over there.

[Qu4rk]

What IS child abuse?

A parent that wants the best for their children - child abuse?
Pushing a kid to achieve their best - child abuse? I assume (most) parents when they push their kids to achieve, they aren't thinking of what they would get out of it when their kid makes a lot of money (at least not mine). Most parents regardless of race wants their children to achieve an even better lifestyle than what they currently have, regardless of wealthy or not wealthy, so i really don't see what's wrong with that.

It is only child abuse, when the parents treats a kid poorly for their own gain or satisfaction (ie. child molesters)... how can you say "child abuse!" when ultimately it's the kid that benefits?!


When I was in grade 2/3 they decided it was time I learned the multiplication tables. They would give me the table, give me 30 minutes to memorize it and make me regurgitate it while they held a thin stick made of plexi glass. If I was wrong, I'd get called an idiot and beaten. Then they would yell at me for crying and tell me to shut up and go study it again. Needless to say, I never failed a second time.

LOL! i know what you mean! my grade 2 years were nightmares coz of that table! But in hindsight, i wonder what i would do without it! I teach math on the side now, and i am perplexed when i ask a gr 10 kid (white or asian) what is 6X7, and they have to bust out a calculator...

[mucat]

hmmm, how about beat the kid then make him stand for long time that he end up puking white stuff and collapses?
I guess if the kid is puking and collapsing, yes.


what about when teachers/parents beat their kid to death?
Death? It is not just abuse, that's murder.


what about when kid fought back and killed the teacher?
I don't know what you are getting at. But killing is a no no regardless.


do you see abuse somewhere here? if not you should get your eyes checked out. child abuse is so widely apparent i can't believe you are actually question its popularity over there.
To be honest, I never heard of those you just mentioned and I don't think those are common. But I am sure they did happen everywhere around the world. I think they are more crazy people problem than child abuse problem.

[mucat]

LOL! i know what you mean! my grade 2 years were nightmares coz of that table! But in hindsight, i wonder what i would do without it! I teach math on the side now, and i am perplexed when i ask a gr 10 kid (white or asian) what is 6X7, and they have to bust out a calculator...

Tell me about it. I saw worst, the kid busted out a calculator and calculate WRONG and couldn't figure out why he did wrong (in my case, it was a division). And guess what, the kid is from free range, hands-off approach family.

[divx]

What IS child abuse?

A parent that wants the best for their children - child abuse?
Pushing a kid to achieve their best - child abuse? I assume (most) parents when they push their kids to achieve, they aren't thinking of what they would get out of it when their kid makes a lot of money (at least not mine). Most parents regardless of race wants their children to achieve an even better lifestyle than what they currently have, regardless of wealthy or not wealthy, so i really don't see what's wrong with that.

It is only child abuse, when the parents treats a kid poorly for their own gain or satisfaction (ie. child molesters)... how can you say "child abuse!" when ultimately it's the kid that benefits?!
I'm interested to hear poedua's response on this because that's exactly their mentality on this, China is a very very evil country as they continues to commit crimes against children on a massive scale.



LOL! i know what you mean! my grade 2 years were nightmares coz of that table! But in hindsight, i wonder what i would do without it! I teach math on the side now, and i am perplexed when i ask a gr 10 kid (white or asian) what is 6X7, and they have to bust out a calculator...
really? even asian kids? does the kid know s/he is asian? if my lil bro pull that sh1t I'd smack him out of it, and no, you won't call that child abuse, cause it's for his own benefit.

[divx]

I guess if the kid is puking and collapsing, yes.


Death? It is not just abuse, that's murder.


I don't know what you are getting at. But killing is a no no regardless.


To be honest, I never heard of those you just mentioned and I don't think those are common. But I am sure they did happen everywhere around the world. I think they are more crazy people problem than child abuse problem.
heh is that so, I've witness it myself, same teacher my parents praised for being a good and responsible teacher, could you imagine if china let people carry guns? there would be a up-raising.

Tell me about it. I saw worst, the kid busted out a calculator and calculate WRONG and couldn't figure out why he did wrong (in my case, it was a division). And guess what, the kid is from free range, hands-off approach family.
child abuse produce results, would you support that?

[ishfish]

There are ways of teaching the multiplication table that do not involve thin sticks, rice on the floor...
Thanks for sharing those stories.

Lets say the child grows up to benefit from these strategies and gets a great job. I wonder if there is a cost that is not financial - say relationship, or in how they parent, fear of failure, anxiety, workaholic, anger, reduced ability to socialize, can't have fun?

[mucat]

heh is that so, I've witness it myself, same teacher my parents praised for being a good and responsible teacher, could you imagine if china let people carry guns? there would be a up-raising.


Really, I have never seen those. I lived in HK through 70's and 80's, so I have seen my share of physical punishment.



child abuse produce results, would you support that?

You will have to be more specific. Your examples of child abuse so far are children collapsing and dying. So unless those are the results you are looking for, but I am guessing it is not......

[divx]

There are ways of teaching the multiplication table that do not involve thin sticks, rice on the floor...
Thanks for sharing those stories.

Lets say the child grows up to benefit from these strategies and gets a great job. I wonder if there is a cost that is not financial - say relationship, or in how they parent, fear of failure, anxiety, workaholic, anger, reduced ability to socialize, can't have fun?

yeah, there are side effects, the kids growing up with much hate, anger and suffering and it will last for the rest of their lives.

[divx]

Really, I have never seen those. I lived in HK through 70's and 80's, so I have seen my share of physical punishment.



You will have to be more specific. Your examples of child abuse so far are children collapsing and dying. So unless those are the results you are looking for, but I am guessing it is not......

HK is probably more liberal as they are more westernized by influence from the British, mainland is all about results and nothing else. If you can't bring up a successful kid you might as well kill him/her, as in, the kid might as well not exist at all.

China have lots people, few kids die here and there matters not.

[mucat]

There are ways of teaching the multiplication table that do not involve thin sticks, rice on the floor...
Thanks for sharing those stories.

Who uses sticks and rice?



Lets say the child grows up to benefit from these strategies and gets a great job. I wonder if there is a cost that is not financial - say relationship, or in how they parent, fear of failure, anxiety, workaholic, anger, reduced ability to socialize, can't have fun?

There is definitely a cost like you said. But so is everything in life. No one can have everything. Balance is the key. Not too strict, not too lenient. You can't be too strict so the kid will feel like no matter what he does, he will get punished. Or too lenient so the kid feels like he can get away with anything.

[divx]

Who uses sticks and rice?



There is definitely a cost like you said. But so is everything in life. No one can have everything. Balance is the key. Not too strict, not too lenient. You can't be too strict so the kid will feel like no matter what he does, he will get punished. Or too lenient so the kid feels like he can get away with anything.

where is this paradise you speak of?

[mucat]

HK is probably more liberal as they are more westernized by influence from the British, mainland is all about results and nothing else. If you can't bring up a successful kid you might as well kill him/her, as in, the kid might as well not exist at all.

China have lots people, few kids die here and there matters not.

That's not true. When I went to China in the 80's, the people are quite laid back and easy going. I don't know about how much pressure parents in China put on their kids, but it can't be more than in HK. Back then about 5 millions people, only 2 small universities.

[ishfish]

Who uses sticks and rice?
There is definitely a cost like you said. But so is everything in life. No one can have everything. Balance is the key. Not too strict, not too lenient. You can't be too strict so the kid will feel like no matter what he does, he will get punished. Or too lenient so the kid feels like he can get away with anything.

Hitting with rods, making them kneel on rice...that is what I was referring to.

There is a cultural part here I want to understand from the view of someone who is Asian and grew up in the ways described previously. Would a person who grew up with those strong expectation and punishments and who engaged in those types of parenting styles with their child say "yes there are unfortunate and regrettable side effects" or would they say "Any side effects are irrelevant" or would they not see side effects? I would be interested in the perspective of someone who grew up in this type of situation.

[mucat]

where is this paradise you speak of?

What paradise? You mean for parents?

[divx]

That's not true. When I went to China in the 80's, the people are quite laid back and easy going. I don't know about how much pressure parents in China put on their kids, but it can't be more than in HK. Back then about 5 millions people, only 2 small universities.
then you should know about the saying "to be above others, you must make greater sacrifices", loosely translated.

[divx]

Hitting with rods, making them kneel on rice...that is what I was referring to.

There is a cultural part here I want to understand from the view of someone who is Asian and grew up in the ways described previously. Would a person who grew up with those strong expectation and punishments and who engaged in those types of parenting styles with their child say "yes there are unfortunate and regrettable side effects" or would they say "Any side effects are irrelevant" or would they not see side effects? I would be interested in the perspective of someone who grew up in this type of situation.
any side effects would be irrelevant, multiple lives are on the line, you can not fail.

What paradise? You mean for parents?
a society where balanced is achieved would be a great place to be.

[mucat]

Hitting with rods, making them kneel on rice...that is what I was referring to.

No, feather dusters and hangers. Rice are expensive, so they are not for kneeing.
Back then, we just memorize the multiplication tables, around grade 3 if I remember correct. It is no different from other subjects, it is about all about memorizing.




There is a cultural part here I want to understand from the view of someone who is Asian and grew up in the ways described previously. Would a person who grew up with those strong expectation and punishments and who engaged in those types of parenting styles with their child say "yes there are unfortunate and regrettable side effects" or would they say "Any side effects are irrelevant" or would they not see side effects? I would be interested in the perspective of someone who grew up in this type of situation.

If everyone is doing it and every kids is having the same side effects, it will be difficult to see those side effects. Also, the school systems put a lot of pressures on the students and hence the parents. Like someone already said, majority of the problem is about money, wealthy family never needs to push their kids hard. For the other poorer family, they really do not have a choice.

[mucat]

a society where balanced is achieved would be a great place to be.

Ha, I wasn't even talking about society. I was talking about being a parent. As a parents myself, I really don't have time to worry about society, my focus is on my kids.

[ishfish]

For the other poorer family, they really do not have a choice.

If that is purely what it is I could have some empathy - and I have empathy for those who grew up in such an manner and honestly do not know alternatives. Not that I did not grow up without some "unfortunate parenting events" but really i know I had luxury compared to many - and I parent in luxury too.

Is there a concern about these parenting strategies in Asia?

[divx]

No, feather dusters and hangers. Rice are expensive, so they are not for kneeing.
Back then, we just memorize the multiplication tables, around grade 3 if I remember correct. It is no different from other subjects, it is about all about memorizing.




If everyone is doing it and every kids is having the same side effects, it will be difficult to see those side effects. Also, the school systems put a lot of pressures on the students and hence the parents. Like someone already said, majority of the problem is about money, wealthy family never needs to push their kids hard. For the other poorer family, they really do not have a choice.
so HK is more liberal, in mainland we had to memorize the multiplication table in grade 1/2 (gr1 is encouraged, gr2 is required). a lot posters here have no idea what it takes to be better than others, to be above other people, they think the world is all roses and rainbows.

[divx]

Ha, I wasn't even talking about society. I was talking about being a parent. As a parents myself, I really don't have time to worry about society, my focus is on my kids.

of course, that's why you live in Canada, the greatest country on earth, you don't need to try very hard to be successful here, even "incompetent" people like me can get into university here.

[mucat]

If that is purely what it is I could have some empathy - and I have empathy for those who grew up in such an manner and honestly do not know alternatives. Not that I did not grow up without some "unfortunate parenting events" but really i know I had luxury compared to many - and I parent in luxury too.

Is there a concern about these parenting strategies in Asia?

Yes, I think HK changed a lot since then, so there are a lot more spoiled brats now :D But the school system is still very strict (compare to what we have here).
Still, it depends on the kids, some kids really strive in those high pressure school system (unfortunately, not me).

[divx]

If that is purely what it is I could have some empathy - and I have empathy for those who grew up in such an manner and honestly do not know alternatives. Not that I did not grow up without some "unfortunate parenting events" but really i know I had luxury compared to many - and I parent in luxury too.

Is there a concern about these parenting strategies in Asia?
what concern? it seems to be working just fine for them.

[mucat]

so HK is more liberal, in mainland we had to memorize the multiplication table in grade 1/2 (gr1 is encouraged, gr2 is required). a lot posters here have no idea what it takes to be better than others, to be above other people, they think the world is all roses and rainbows.

I don't know, I could be wrong, it was 30+ years ago. But my kids learnt multiplication in grade 3 here.
I think the world is mostly poo with occasional roses and rainbows. :D

[divx]

Yes, I think HK changed a lot since then, so there are a lot more spoiled brats now :D But the school system is still very strict (compare to what we have here).
Still, it depends on the kids, some kids really strive in those high pressure school system (unfortunately, not me).

you must also know the saying "kill a chicken to scare the monkey", again loosely translated. those incompetent buffoons over there are made fun of, beaten on and basically a target used to be made example of, to show other kids what is like to be a failure. I don't like it, a lot of those buffoons and failures are actually quite competent when I compare them to people here.

[mucat]

of course, that's why you live in Canada, the greatest country on earth, you don't need to try very hard to be successful here, even "incompetent" people like me can get into university here.

Interesting thing is, once it get to university, the students in here catch up or even surpass on those asian students. Being the best with multiplication table doesn't mean nothing in college.

[ishfish]

what concern? it seems to be working just fine for them.

I do not want to make assumptions - it gets in the way of hearing the experiences of others (my valued part of this site and life in general).

[mucat]

you must also know the saying "kill a chicken to scare the monkey", again loosely translated. those incompetent buffoons over there are made fun of, beaten on and basically a target used to be made example of, to show other kids what is like to be a failure. I don't like it, a lot of those buffoons and failures are actually quite competent when I compare them to people here.

One of those buffoons are probably me. :D

[divx]

I don't know, I could be wrong, it was 30+ years ago. But my kids learnt multiplication in grade 3 here.
I think the world is mostly poo with occasional roses and rainbows. :D

i feel sorry for those gr 1 kids (me including) who are bad at multiplying getting labelled incompetent trash by their teachers, i mean, come on, at least wait till they are in grade 3 for ***** sakes.

[divx]

Interesting thing is, once it get to university, the students in here catch up or even surpass on those asian students. Being the best with multiplication table doesn't mean nothing in college.
well to get into college you had to graduate from an elite high school, to get into an elite high school you had to graduate from an elite middle school, to get into an elite middle school you had to graduate from an elite elementary school, to get into an elite elementary school you had to graduate from an elite kinder garden, so knowing multiplication table by gr2 is quite important.

I do not want to make assumptions - it gets in the way of hearing the experiences of others (my valued part of this site and life in general).
others should have similar experience

One of those buffoons are probably me. :D
yeah, pretty hard to get 100% everytime, if you mess up once you get labelled as trash, high standards, they think they are training gods instead of people.

[mucat]

i feel sorry for those gr 1 kids (me including) who are bad at multiplying getting labelled incompetent trash by their teachers, i mean, come on, at least wait till they are in grade 3 for ***** sakes.

I passed the multiplication tables with flying color (probably exaggeration).

One of the problem is, most of those parents back then have a very low education level themselves, so they really do not have the knowledge or skills to help their kids beyond elementary school or junior high.
Also, there are no internet back then, people only did what they were taught by their parents.

[divx]

I passed the multiplication tables with flying color (probably exaggeration).

One of the problem is, most of those parents back then have a very low education level themselves, so they really do not have the knowledge or skills to help their kids beyond elementary school or junior high.
Also, there are no internet back then, people only did what they were taught by their parents.
na, my parent has masters, it's not matter of education, everyone was brought up this way, and this way shall they remain.
it's pretty clear cut child abuse, anyone still in disbelief i won't waste anymore time on that.

[mucat]

well to get into college you had to graduate from an elite high school, to get into an elite high school you had to graduate from an elite middle school, to get into an elite middle school you had to graduate from an elite elementary school, to get into an elite elementary school you had to graduate from an elite kinder garden, so knowing multiplication table by gr2 is quite important.

Yes, those got into university are really elite students. Also, there are TV reports and news on the pre-unversity open exam results, interviewing the best 1-3 students, etc, etc. It is like NHL draft. :)
I remember someone I know couldn't get into university, she was so disappointed. But she studied all the time and was a very good student.

[mucat]

na, my parent has masters, it's not matter of education, everyone was brought up this way, and this way shall they remain.
it's pretty clear cut child abuse, anyone still in disbelief i won't waste anymore time on that.

Back then, most of people in HK only had very low education level.

If both your parents got masters, you are not from typical family.

[divx]

Yes, those got into university are really elite students. Also, there are TV reports and news on the pre-unversity open exam results, interviewing the best 1-3 students, etc, etc. It is like NHL draft. :)
I remember someone I know couldn't get into university, she was so disappointed. But she studied all the time and was a very good student.
the pre-university entrance exams are in a specially designated building with military guards, there is screening and search for all students, if you didn't know what they were for you probably think it's a jail, actually i'm not sure even jail had that level of security.

Back then, most of people in HK only had every low education level.

If both your parents got masters, you are not from typical family.
people achieve for the best, or die trying.

[ishfish]

And they see nothing outside of University?

[divx]

And they see nothing outside of University?

what else is there for them to do? labor is dirt cheap in china and you get treated like trash.

[ishfish]

it's pretty clear cut child abuse, anyone still in disbelief i won't waste anymore time on that.

There are reasons why people will justify abuse "The end justifying the means" seems to be common here - and perhaps a reluctance to see one's parents as engaging in abuse.

[ishfish]

what else is there for them to do? labor is dirt cheap in china and you get treated like trash.

So they are unskilled labour heavy - a bit opposite of here in some locations. No luxury positions for the unskilled - no rig pigs so to speak?

Is there a (let me specify humane) solution being generated?
It seems this could easily happen in Canada.

[divx]

There are reasons why people will justify abuse "The end justifying the means" seems to be common here - and perhaps a reluctance to see one's parents as engaging in abuse.
it generates results for them, and they are showing off those results to the world.

So they are unskilled labour heavy - a bit opposite of here in some locations. No luxury positions for the unskilled - no rig pigs so to speak?

Is there a (let me specify humane) solution being generated?
It seems this could easily happen in Canada.

Canada is the best country in the world, precisely because sh1t like that does not and will not happen here. an average person like me could make decent living is unheard of over there.

[gman]

Interesting thing is, once it get to university, the students in here catch up or even surpass on those asian students. Being the best with multiplication table doesn't mean nothing in college.

Yes but it is because their way of education does not fit well in University here. It also depends on the subject.
If it is vice versa, a Canadian student may not do well in University in Hong Kong/China.
No, I am not saying their University is better.

[deltone]

lol, I was raised here and I still went through a lot of the same things. I am not kidding when I say this, but one time I came home with 99% on a test and instead of saying good job, they asked me what happened to the other 1%. Growing up, I was never allowed to play with other kids. My parents wanted me away from white kids, because they were "bad influences" and they didn't want me hanging out with Asian kids, because they thought I'd join a gang (I'm serious :facepalm:). Every weekend they'd drive me to the public library and leave me there. When I was in grade 2/3 they decided it was time I learned the multiplication tables. They would give me the table, give me 30 minutes to memorize it and make me regurgitate it while they held a thin stick made of plexi glass. If I was wrong, I'd get called an idiot and beaten. Then they would yell at me for crying and tell me to shut up and go study it again. Needless to say, I never failed a second time.

Wow, that's horrible. So very sorry you went through this. I had no idea that this sort of thing goes on. I mean yes, I know abuse goes on but had no idea that these sorts of things were going on in some communities, all in the name of education. How very sad.


What IS child abuse?

A parent that wants the best for their children - child abuse?
Pushing a kid to achieve their best - child abuse? I assume (most) parents when they push their kids to achieve, they aren't thinking of what they would get out of it when their kid makes a lot of money (at least not mine). Most parents regardless of race wants their children to achieve an even better lifestyle than what they currently have, regardless of wealthy or not wealthy, so i really don't see what's wrong with that.

It is only child abuse, when the parents treats a kid poorly for their own gain or satisfaction (ie. child molesters)... how can you say "child abuse!" when ultimately it's the kid that benefits?!



LOL! i know what you mean! my grade 2 years were nightmares coz of that table! But in hindsight, i wonder what i would do without it! I teach math on the side now, and i am perplexed when i ask a gr 10 kid (white or asian) what is 6X7, and they have to bust out a calculator...

LOL? You think it's funny? HARDLY. There is never an excuse for abusing your child, regardless of what country you live in, or what culture or religion you are. I'm truly sorry you went thorugh what you went through and I am happy for you that you have found some way of dealing with it and accepting it as it really is the best way as you can't change the past but still, I find it sad that so many kids are going through this crap.

Sheesh, my kids need to read this thread and the next time I hear one of them complain that I made them eat cornflakes for breakfast instead of Count Chocula or Fruit Loops, I'm going to smack them upside the head. (Not really, I'm one of those liberals who do not believe in hitting kids)).

[reborn1979]

Death happens to everyone. let's face it.:|

[Qu4rk]

LOL? You think it's funny? HARDLY. There is never an excuse for abusing your child, regardless of what country you live in, or what culture or religion you are. I'm truly sorry you went thorugh what you went through and I am happy for you that you have found some way of dealing with it and accepting it as it really is the best way as you can't change the past but still, I find it sad that so many kids are going through this crap.


I think "abuse" is too strong of a word, maybe "harsh parenting"? But at the same time, it was the norm of that time, the norm was if you didn't do your homework, a slap with a pixie glass ruler was warranted. Now i m not saying they would do it ALL the time, only the times when I am out of line or still can't memorize a table after the 12th time getting it wrong. It's just times, if the norm during that time was some physical punishment, then that's the way it is, it's like how in the Renascence, FAT is beauty, but not so much now.

Regardless of time, culture, or geography, at the end of the day, your parents loves you, and simply wants you to do well, and you just need to understand that. (Also, look at yourself! you got a 55% in English!! :D) And in hindsight, i think those beatings were warranted, having said that though, i m not sure what kind of parent i will be. Maybe not with sticks, but definitely slaps on the palm will be issued.

[laihama]

I remember someone I know couldn't get into university, she was so disappointed. But she studied all the time and was a very good student.
Did she apply to a Canadian university then? LOL.

You know what is freaky? Those HK/Chinese classmates that you see here who are always studying and are at the top of the class? They got rejected by the universities back home. What choice do the parents have? Without a university education, the kid is so screwed. So if the parents have enough money, they send them to a Western country to study. Canadian universities prefer international students because it provides a higher revenue stream. So it's very easy to get accepted.

Of course, some parents are so rich that they send them abroad, plus a BMW and a house. Those kids have poorer grades and will coast through uni.

[laihama]

I think "abuse" is too strong of a word, maybe "harsh parenting"? But at the same time, it was the norm of that time, the norm was if you didn't do your homework, a slap with a pixie glass ruler was warranted. Now i m not saying they would do it ALL the time, only the times when I am out of line or still can't memorize a table after the 12th time getting it wrong. It's just times, if the norm during that time was some physical punishment, then that's the way it is, it's like how in the Renascence, FAT is beauty, but not so much now.

Regardless of time, culture, or geography, at the end of the day, your parents loves you, and simply wants you to do well, and you just need to understand that. (Also, look at yourself! you got a 55% in English!! :D) And in hindsight, i think those beatings were warranted, having said that though, i m not sure what kind of parent i will be. Maybe not with sticks, but definitely slaps on the palm will be issued.
Yeah, the line is fuzzy here. I don't think it's as clear cut. What's clearly abuse is when you're drunk, you hate your boss and your job, and you beat your wife and kids because it makes you feel like a man.

I'm a parent. It's reddish bumbums and hands if my kids consistently misbehave. My spouse is in the "time-out" camp. It's good cop / bad cop parenting. LOL.

[gman]

Did she apply to a Canadian university then? LOL.

You know what is freaky? Those HK/Chinese classmates that you see here who are always studying and are at the top of the class? They got rejected by the universities back home. What choice do the parents have? Without a university education, the kid is so screwed. So if the parents have enough money, they send them to a Western country to study. Canadian universities prefer international students because it provides a higher revenue stream. So it's very easy to get accepted.

Of course, some parents are so rich that they send them abroad, plus a BMW and a house. Those kids have poorer grades and will coast through uni.

Yes, I am one of those. ;)

In Hong Kong, I was bottom 20% and there were only 2 Universities. In Hong Kong, at least in my time, everyone was studying all the time including the one in the bottom of the basket like me. In here, I was top 10%.

Was Hong Kong education good (because it produces result)? IMO, no. That affected me a lot. I loss a lot of childhood stuff that I should care but I did not. The sad part is I did not even know I should care about those stuff. e.g. my relationship with my family is very loose. I did not play with my own brother and sister. We did not even talk to each other much. Everybody was busy studying. For me, because I chose a better high school (it was my choice). I spend 3 hours on the road. When I went home, quickly finishing dinner. Then, study again. I virtually lived in my own world without much interaction with my own family.

Now, I have 2 kids and I learned a lot from them. From them, I know what I missed. They love each other, care about each other, take care of each other, play, laugh, ... with each other. They are a lot better person than I am.

Do I regard what I lose? Well, I don't. I can't. Without my good/bad childhood, the person who is writing this post right now would not be me today. Sure, I lose something important but on the other hand, if that was not "done", I might lose something else that I have and care today.

I always say life is A->B->C->D. Without any on the A,B,C, you cannot reach D or at least not the same D.

[mucat]

Yes but it is because their way of education does not fit well in University here. It also depends on the subject.
If it is vice versa, a Canadian student may not do well in University in Hong Kong/China.
No, I am not saying their University is better.

I don't know how universities are in HK. But after graduated here, I have the opportunity to work in HK for a couple years. From what I could tell at that time, lot of employees and people in general praised oversea students because we are more independent, more creative and have better problem solving skill. Some of the schools from all levels, kindergarten to university were trying to change (slowly) to a more open and western style learning environments.

[mucat]

Did she apply to a Canadian university then? LOL.

No, parents didn't have enough money.



You know what is freaky? Those HK/Chinese classmates that you see here who are always studying and are at the top of the class? They got rejected by the universities back home. What choice do the parents have? Without a university education, the kid is so screwed. So if the parents have enough money, they send them to a Western country to study. Canadian universities prefer international students because it provides a higher revenue stream. So it's very easy to get accepted.

Of course, some parents are so rich that they send them abroad, plus a BMW and a house. Those kids have poorer grades and will coast through uni.

I don't know about easier to get accept. My experience was, I still have to pass the same requirements as canadian students + TOFEL. I guess if both foreign and local students got same score, they might keep the foreigner because of extra revenue?

[gman]

I don't know how universities are in HK. But after graduated here, I have the opportunity to work in HK for a couple years. From what I could tell at that time, lot of employees and people in general praised oversea students because we are more independent, more creative and have better problem solving skill. Some of the schools from all levels, kindergarten to university were trying to change (slowly) to a more open and western style learning environments.

I do not disagree with you. What I said is "good" Canadian student may not get good mark in Universities in Hong Kong (depends on subjects) and "good" Hong Kong student may not get good mark in Canadian Universities (depends on subject). I already mentioned "No, I am not saying their University is better."

I am one of those "bad" Hong Kong students who got good mark in a Canadian University based on the subject I studied and I was not "qualified" to go to University in Hong Kong in those years.

Yes, when I worked in Hong Kong, I felt the "elite" Hong Kong University graduated colleagues were pretty dumb (IMO).

[gman]

I don't know about easier to get accept. My experience was, I still have to pass the same requirements as canadian students + TOFEL. I guess if both foreign and local students got same score, they might keep the foreigner because of extra revenue?

Foreign student needs to be somehow better than Canadian student in order to be accepted. So, no, not the same requirement. It needs to be better. At least, that is what it used to be.

[ishfish]

I find it ironic that throughout history and over time China has stood out as the most advanced in many areas (technology, art etc) but never in human rights.

[deltone]

I think "abuse" is too strong of a word, maybe "harsh parenting"? But at the same time, it was the norm of that time, the norm was if you didn't do your homework, a slap with a pixie glass ruler was warranted. Now i m not saying they would do it ALL the time, only the times when I am out of line or still can't memorize a table after the 12th time getting it wrong. It's just times, if the norm during that time was some physical punishment, then that's the way it is, it's like how in the Renascence, FAT is beauty, but not so much now.

Regardless of time, culture, or geography, at the end of the day, your parents loves you, and simply wants you to do well, and you just need to understand that. (Also, look at yourself! you got a 55% in English!! :D) And in hindsight, i think those beatings were warranted, having said that though, i m not sure what kind of parent i will be. Maybe not with sticks, but definitely slaps on the palm will be issued.



Actually, English was my best subject in high school. I must admit that in recent years my grammar and spelling has deteriorated a lot but I put that down to the fact that I rarely read books anymore. I used to be an avid reader but not anymore. There is a price to pay for that.

Anyhow, I guess that one person's abuse is another person's discipline and in this case, we'd have to agree to disagree. I'm of the belief that you should not hit your kids. Was I a pushover with my kids, or now with my grandkids? Not a chance. I'm pretty firm and I can't stand saucy, poorly behaved kids but I don't hit the kids. I have 4 grown kids (had 5.......still can't get used to excluding him so I feel the need to mention him) and while I made my share of mistakes with my kids, they've all turned out to be pretty good young adults. They're not perfect, none of us are but they are all law-abiding, hard working, pretty successful people and none of them can complain that they were hit with rulers or anything else for that matter.

Even though these are my beliefs, I would be dishonest if I said I never hit my kids, but it was so rare that I can remember each occasion and I acknowledge that I had lost my cool and hit them (not hard mind you) because I lost my self control. It's not something I'm proud of, that's for sure.

I think that some of the "tactics" that are being described in here are very foreign to me and IMHO are abuse but if they are seen as normal by those who experienced it, then who am I or anyone else to dispute that. In my eyes though, it's pure and adulterated abuse. The experiences that ebonyrose outlined are very disturbing and heartbreaking. I would not want to witness any child go through that sort of garbage.

Oh, and I'm not saying this is limited to any one race, such as Chinese. I know MANY anglos who have experiences unfathonable abuse at the hands of their parents. I am one of the lucky ones who has the most sweet, loving mothers ever put on the earth. My dad was not the warmest guy in the world, and he could be pretty harsh but he was in no way shape or form abusive. He did the best he could. Anyhow, I'm glad you are able to not have any long term repercussions from some of the things you went through as a kid. That is a good thing.

[LaserEnvy]

I think occasional or a moderate amount of spanking is relatively harmless. Kids go through much worse experiences than their parents hitting their bum when they misbehave (I'm not talking about hard, physical abuse - that is a different story).

Verbal and psychological abuse, however, causes much more damage and can negatively impact a person's entire life.

[ishfish]

Verbal and psychological abuse, however, causes much more damage and can negatively impact a person's entire life.

Physical abuse does not occur in isolation of the others - lets say I just hit my child - the will experience many mental processes (fear, mistrust, confusion...) not just a bruise.
But I agree people can be scared by mental abuse in the absence of physical abuse.

[poedua]

I think occasional or a moderate amount of spanking is relatively harmless. Kids go through much worse experiences than their parents hitting their bum when they misbehave (I'm not talking about hard, physical abuse - that is a different story).

I don't think spanking is ever warranted myself - but that's a whole other debate.


Verbal and psychological abuse, however, causes much more damage and can negatively impact a person's entire life.

I would agree...any kind of abuse is inappropriate.

[BluePhirePB]

Verbal and psychological abuse, however, causes much more damage and can negatively impact a person's entire life.

You got that right. IMO, it's the reason why a portion of Chinese males lack self confidence and have a hard time finding a gf. You also can't try reversing said psychological warfare on the parents because they're too smart to fall for it. They instill loyalty into their kids. However, it's done by guilt-tripping, reverse psychology and pessimism vs. setting a good positive example, being fair and balanced. In no way am I saying the parent should do any/everything to make their children #1 but I think Chinese parents need to tone it down a couple notches and stop with the mind games.

[Aznsilvrboy]

I find it ironic that throughout history and over time China has stood out as the most advanced in many areas (technology, art etc) but never in human rights.

Human rights is a recent invention. I would not put any other country's human rights record above China's until very recently.

[deltone]

You raise a good point. While it may be on a much smaller scale Canada has it's share of it's own history of human rights violations. Many on here might not have heard of the Dionne quintuplets but what our government did to that family is disgusting. Also, to the Aboriginals, Inuits, and to the Japanese in WW!!, to name a few things. No country is innocent.

[ishfish]

Human rights is a recent invention. I would not put any other country's human rights record above China's until very recently.

Very true. Child labour etc is historically common amongst human groups, and many other abusess regardless of age etc. But in general those countries have never been as advanced as China in other areas either. China is extraordinary in its' accomplishments in pretty much every area but that one.

[LaserEnvy]

I don't think spanking is ever warranted myself - but that's a whole other debate.



I would agree...any kind of abuse is inappropriate.

Sometimes children are very stubborn, very irrational. When they are, a slap on the wrist or a spank on the bum can go a long way.

[sylpherware]

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1239757--doctor-accused-of-waterboarding-daughter-11

Ok... WTF?

A doctor known for his research into near-death experiences of children was in jail on Thursday on charges he disciplined his 11-year-old daughter with a simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, Delaware State Police said.

Dr. Melvin Morse, 58, and his wife Pauline Morse, 40, were arrested at their home in Georgetown, Del., on Tuesday on charges of endangering the welfare of a child, reckless endangerment and conspiracy.

The pediatrician, who was held in lieu of $14,500 bail, was accused of waterboarding the girl four times over two years starting in May 2009. Police said she had so much water poured on her face that it would go up her nose.

They said Pauline Morse, who was released after arrest, saw some of the punishment but did not stop it.

Police learned of the waterboarding, a controversial technique more typically associated with the interrogation of terrorism suspects, earlier this week when they spoke with the girl about a separate incident.

The Morse family drove home on July 16 and the 11-year-old refused to get out of the car for an unknown reason. Dr. Morse opened the door and dragged her by the ankles over a gravel driveway to the house, police said.

Later, the child ran to a neighbour’s house, and police were called. Dr. Morse was charged with assault and two counts of endangering the welfare of a child.

While the girl was being questioned by authorities on Monday, she told them that her father would discipline her by what he called waterboarding, police said.

After their arrest, both parents were ordered to have no contact with the girl and her 6-year-old sister. Both girls were placed in the care of the Division of Family Services.

Dr. Morse, who heads the Institute for the Scientific Study of Consciousness, had appeared on Oprah, Good Morning America and Larry King Live on CNN. He is also the author of a book called Closer to the Light.

On his website, he wrote about his research into near-death experiences, particularly those involving children.

[ishfish]

There are many horrid ways people "dicipline" children. I find bystanders (like this mom) to be disgusting. They are perps for failing to report and provide safety.

Sick - You have to wonder if somehow he/they enjoyed it too.

[ishfish]

Sometimes children are very stubborn, very irrational. When they are, a slap on the wrist or a spank on the bum can go a long way.

Often that is just part of their development and quite normal. There are alternatives to hitting.

[deltone]

I saw that story on the news (about the doctor waterboarding his daughter). He is a worthless piece of crap and he doesn't deserve to live. Same with his wife. Aside from the waterboarding, he dragged his daughter from their car, to their house, by her ankles, over gravel. What an animal.

[Simaahoy]

The doc should be charged with attempted murder.

[ishfish]

I saw that story on the news (about the doctor waterboarding his daughter). He is a worthless piece of crap and he doesn't deserve to live. Same with his wife. Aside from the waterboarding, he dragged his daughter from their car, to their house, by her ankles, over gravel. What an animal.

There are people who use abusive parenting strategies because they honestly do not know better - and they will do different when taught. Then there are people who know better and could have the skills but enjoy being cruel - no empathy for them.

[ishfish]

The doc should be charged with attempted murder.

It is a mistake to charge someone with a crime for which they are unlikely to be convicted. Better to get a conviction - and a very harsh punishment.

[Qu4rk]

Actually, English was my best subject in high school. I must admit that in recent years my grammar and spelling has deteriorated a lot but I put that down to the fact that I rarely read books anymore. I used to be an avid reader but not anymore. There is a price to pay for that.


oh, i m sorry! i meant myself when i meant i got a 55% in english, not you! :) i did only get 55% in english when i was in hong kong, but since being here, i actually got a 79% in OAC english... lol

but yeah, i was referring to my 55% in english, that's why i was punished, not you :)

[deltone]

oh, i m sorry! i meant myself when i meant i got a 55% in english, not you! :) i did only get 55% in english when i was in hong kong, but since being here, i actually got a 79% in OAC english... lol

but yeah, i was referring to my 55% in english, that's why i was punished, not you :)

OOPS!! LOL I'm a little paranoid about my spelling and grammar as it's been MANY years since I've been in school, and as I said, I no longer read much so my spelling has become rather poor and for whatever reason, the specllcheck doesn't work when I post. (Perhaps I am supposed to turn it on or something). Proper spelling and grammar are important to me and it bugs me when I make mistakes with them but I'm finding it happens quite often these days. Anyhow, you do very well.

[laihama]

Often that is just part of their development and quite normal. There are alternatives to hitting.
Umm, are you a parent?

Sure you can try to negotiate with your child for half an hour (they can be super stubborn) or you can get it over with in 2 seconds with a slap on the bum or hand. Reasoning is more effective when they are older.

[gman]

Umm, are you a parent?

Sure you can try to negotiate with your child for half an hour (they can be super stubborn) or you can get it over with in 2 seconds with a slap on the bum or hand. Reasoning is more effective when they are older.

Are you a parent? If you can't do that without a slap, you are not a suitable parent. I did not need to anything. A mean look would be more than enough and I don't negotiate.

[ishfish]

Umm, are you a parent?

Sure you can try to negotiate with your child for half an hour (they can be super stubborn) or you can get it over with in 2 seconds with a slap on the bum or hand. Reasoning is more effective when they are older.

Yes, I am.
I can put down a limit and endure a half hour moment of "stubbornness" - that does not mean I am negotiating or reasoning. Negotiating and reasoning generally is best reserved for older ages - starting around age 7.

I will tell you a secert.
Shhhhh - you cannot tell anyone.
The problem with the swat on the butt is that inspite of the guilt etc it feels too good.:twisted:

[laihama]

Are you a parent? If you can't do that without a slap, you are not a suitable parent. I did not need to anything. A mean look would be more than enough and I don't negotiate.
Yes, I am. "Not a suitable parent"? What a snob, you are.

I hardly ever hit my kids, but I pull out that card if they call my bluff.

[gman]

Yes, I am. "Not a suitable parent"? What a snob, you are.

I hardly ever hit my kids, but I pull out that card if they call my bluff.

I said "If you can't do that without a slap, you are not a suitable parent." Now, according to you, you can do that without a slap. Was I saying you are not a suitable parent based on my statement? Read the whole sentence and not just part of it.

Yes, I still stand on my statement:

If you can't do that without a slap, you are not a suitable parent.