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View Full Version : Whose fault would this be - in Ontario?

slomo
Aug 7th, 2012, 02:48 PM
Car A gets green traffic signal and is making a U-turn on a 6-lane road. Car B is making a right turn on red traffic signal.
Assuming B stopped first at the intersection and then proceed, whose fault would this be if A hits B on the left side?

Points:
A: Green signal means I can make a U-turn.
B: How I would I know he is making a U-turn and not a left? He is also crossing the lanes.

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--------------.............................-------------
..............................................< A (U-Turn, on green)
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..............................................|->
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.............................................B (Right Turn, on red)

iownyou
Aug 7th, 2012, 02:52 PM
whoever went into the wrong lane.... obviously there is enough room for both of you.....

slomo
Aug 7th, 2012, 03:07 PM
whoever went into the wrong lane.... obviously there is enough room for both of you.....

Let's turn A into an 18 foot trailer. Same question.

Abstracpoetic
Aug 7th, 2012, 03:14 PM
If A was an 18' trailer, and you guys were both stopped at the light at the same time, you would have had plenty of time to make the turn before the trailer could have hit you.

what part of the car was damaged? front, middle or back?

slomo
Aug 7th, 2012, 03:40 PM
If A was an 18' trailer, and you guys were both stopped at the light at the same time, you would have had plenty of time to make the turn before the trailer could have hit you.

what part of the car was damaged? front, middle or back?

Let's say the middle, to make it more difficult.

And also it does not have to be an 18 foot trailer. The road could be a 4 lane road.

koffey
Aug 7th, 2012, 03:47 PM
WFT is going on in this thread... What is with all the switching up once you get an answer. Were you involvd in this situation? Yes? Describe it excatly. Or what's with all the hypothetical questions? Either way, red light guy is in the wrong.

rems
Aug 7th, 2012, 03:53 PM
But why would it hit the middle of the car? Wouldn't A stop first?
The only way I could see this being an issue is if B doesn't stop to check it's safe to turn (in which case B would be at fault). Because you can't be going that fast making a U turn that you can't stop from hitting car B and vice versa. Unless you're saying they're doing this on purpose...

Manatus
Aug 7th, 2012, 03:57 PM
WFT is going on in this thread... What is with all the switching up once you get an answer. Were you involvd in this situation? Yes? Describe it excatly. Or what's with all the hypothetical questions? Either way, red light guy is in the wrong.

The driver of automobile “A” is 100 per cent at fault and the driver of automobile “B” is not at fault for an incident that occurs,
(a) when automobile “A” is backing up;
(b) when automobile “A” is making a U-turn; or
(c) when the driver of, or a passenger in, automobile “A” opens the automobile door or leaves the door open.
O. Reg. 276/90, s. 19.

http://www.ibc.ca/en/car_insurance/documents/brochure/on-fault-determination-rules.pdf

So on that basis I would imagine 50% fault, since the above states 0% at fault, but failing to obey the red light (turning when obviously it was not safe to do so) would be 100% at fault.

vero95
Aug 7th, 2012, 03:58 PM
^this
the vehicle making an u-turn is at fault

iownyou
Aug 7th, 2012, 03:58 PM
WFT is going on in this thread... What is with all the switching up once you get an answer. Were you involvd in this situation? Yes? Describe it excatly. Or what's with all the hypothetical questions? Either way, red light guy is in the wrong.

lol... what if A was mildly intoxicated and B was texting on the phone~~~~~

DJ_Peanuts22
Aug 7th, 2012, 04:00 PM
Car B would be at fault since they did not make sure the roadway was clear before proceeding to make the turn.

koffey
Aug 7th, 2012, 04:05 PM
http://www.ibc.ca/en/car_insurance/documents/brochure/on-fault-determination-rules.pdf

How do you know if there was no sign indicating, do not turn on red? The same link to the document...

14. (1) This section applies with respect to an incident that occurs at an intersection with traffic signs.
(2) If the incident occurs when the driver of automobile “B” fails to obey a stop sign, yield sign or a
similar sign or flares or other signals on the ground, the driver of automobile “A” is not at fault and
the driver of automobile “B” is 100 per cent at fault for the incident.
(3) If the driver of each automobile fails to obey a stop sign, the driver of each automobile is 50 per
cent at fault for the incident.
(4) If it cannot be established who failed to obey a stop sign, the driver of each automobile shall be
deemed to be 50 per cent at fault for the incident.
(5) If, at an all-way stop intersection, automobile “A” arrives at the intersection first and stops, the driver
of automobile “A” is not at fault and the driver of automobile “B” is 100 per cent at fault for
the incident.
(6) If, at an all-way stop intersection, both automobiles arrive at the intersection at the same time and
stop, with automobile “A” to the right of automobile “B”, the driver of automobile “A” is not at
fault and the driver of automobile “B” is 100 per cent at fault for the incident.
(7) If it cannot be established who arrived at the all-way stop intersection first, the driver of each automobile
shall be deemed to be 50 per cent at fault for the incident.

18. The driver of automobile “A” is 100 per cent at fault and the driver of automobile “B” is not at fault
for an incident in which automobile “A” collides with automobile “B” when the driver of automobile
“A” fails to obey,
(a) a police officer’s direction;
(b) a do not enter sign;
(c) a prohibited passing sign; or
(d) a prohibited turn sign.

Otherwise, its looking like 50/50. But still blaming car B, had the red.

rems
Aug 7th, 2012, 04:10 PM
Seems like 14(2) (failed to obey red light) and 19(b) (U-turn is at fault) would be at play here so 4(2) kicks in?

Despite subsection (1), if two rules apply with respect to an incident involving two automobiles and
if under one rule the insured is 100 per cent at fault and under the other the insured is not at fault
for the incident, the insured shall be deemed to be 50 per cent at fault for the incident.

slomo
Aug 7th, 2012, 04:21 PM
I know a similar accident like this had happened, but since I am not involved, I don't know what the resolution was. So it was not 100% hypothetical, it could happen, since ON allows U-turn on traffic light. I want to know who is at fault in this case.

Most likely what happen was incoming traffic from left to right was heavy, so both A and B waits at the light. B saw A and was assuming A is making a left turn. A may or may not see B.

I had some points to give to both drivers:

Points for A:
B is in my left blind spot when I am waiting for traffic, when I am turning when the last car goes away, B moves and I had no time to hit the brake.

Points for B:
Assuming that A is turning left, no way can he know if A is making a U-turn. Once the traffic clears, he needs time to check for pedestrian on his right side, putting B on his left blind spot.

pinoybrat
Aug 7th, 2012, 04:48 PM
it is prohibited to make a U turn wherever there are traffic lights... so i assumed its A fault

mofesto
Aug 7th, 2012, 05:03 PM
it is prohibited to make a U turn wherever there are traffic lights... so i assumed its A fault

Not so.

In our area, they built a Walmart. But to get into Walmart, you have to make a left-turn at busy intersection, then another left-turn at lights to Walmart. OR, at the first-intersection, you can make a U-turn and then turn right immediately into the Walmart lot. They even put up a "U-turn allowed" sign to suggest this as a route, as it seems they didn't feel like adding a direct ability to turn into Walmart.

And I had the same exact concern as O.P. because I see the issue daily. When you are turning left at green light, the people who are turning right don't expect a person to pull a u-turn. So they start going into traffic thinking it is clear, myself having been in that position (and also having been in the u-turn person's shoes too), and then that car that was turning left is now doing a u-turn, and we're in a close situation for collision.

To me it seems the person to blame is the one turning right, because they have a red light, they aren't allowed to turn right until the way is clear. But at the same time, it's unrealistic to expect them to know you're going to be doing a u-turn. So make sure when you're making that u-turn, do it slowly to make sure you don't take out unsuspecting pedestrians (sometimes pedestrians will cross to the median thinking it's safe enough already) or a car turning right. In the event they didn't expect it, control your speed so you can avoid a collision.

Manatus
Aug 7th, 2012, 05:05 PM
it is prohibited to make a U turn wherever there are traffic lights... so i assumed its A fault

No, in Ontario you can make a u-turn at traffic lights unless it specifically says no u-turn permitted.

mucat
Aug 7th, 2012, 06:48 PM
it is prohibited to make a U turn wherever there are traffic lights... so i assumed its A fault

In Alberta, yes.

spike1128
Aug 7th, 2012, 11:03 PM
it is prohibited to make a U turn wherever there are traffic lights... so i assumed its A fault

I think you are right. Only idiots make Uturn at a intersection. I assume A is 75% at fault, and B is 25% at fault. There is no doubt. B must precede with caution. Clearly B wasn't

macnut
Aug 8th, 2012, 12:05 AM
Making U-turns is a more common practice in the States than in Canada. They have more permitted opportunities to do it, and make the most of it.

But even there, signs at specific intersections (usually signalled ones) will forbid U-turns.

Clearly there are risks, and in Canada you tend to never do a U-turn unless really necessary (and there is no sign specifically prohibiting it).

But we have American tourists who are going to assume we do the same as them, so it's wise to watch out for that unexpected manoeuvre anyways.

I'd put B 100% at fault for making the turn on red when it was not safe to do so, regardless of the fact there was no obvious indication that A was doing anything but just a left turn.

Transport trucks may have a greater need to do U-turns, so you yield the right of way to them.

yao416
Aug 8th, 2012, 10:28 AM
This thread is such waste of time. Were you in a collision or what?

Laughing out loud at people giving long ***** replies.

sandikosh
Aug 8th, 2012, 10:49 AM
Where did the collision occurred? Why "in Ontario"?

iownyou
Aug 8th, 2012, 11:12 AM
This thread is such waste of time. Were you in a collision or what?

Laughing out loud at people giving long ***** replies.

OP is just planning.... he's got beef in Ontario

redgrandam
Aug 8th, 2012, 11:30 AM
Lol

There is more to it than you are 'allowed to' make a u-turn. I don't have the HTA with me, but I believe there are stipulations like it must be safe, can't be by a hill or curve etc. bit of a guess but likely 50% each for neither one paying attention.

skwigglyline
Aug 8th, 2012, 03:35 PM
Hopefully it is 50/50 because both cars should be able to prevent a collision and if they did get into a collision then they're both stupid and should share the blame.