Solar Pool heating, share your experience

[Rockstead]

I'm in Montreal and I have a 16x32 inground pool. I currently don't have any heating and was considering Solar heating as an option.

I'm not talking about the blankets, but the solar panels they put on your roof that is then attached to your pump to heat your pool.

has anyone had any experience with this? I'm not looking to do it myself, I'd like to hire a contractor to do it.

Was it a good experience and did it make a huge difference to justtify the expense of the installation? and how much was the initial cost, and what does it cost you to maintain it?

It would also be great if anyone had any Pool contractors in Montreal to refer.

[mlc2000]

My neighbour has this. He said is was more $ up front than a gas heater.
But then then you won't have any gas bills to cntend with. I imagine the gas bill would be atrocious for the beginning of the year when you are trying to heat 50 degree water up to 80 degrees. Having said that, with a gas heater, you have the choice of when your pool season starts and when it ends, although it doesn't matter hoe warm the pool is, no one is gonna go swimming in late september.

With solar, you need Hot sunlight, not just direct sunlight. If its cloudy, there's no heat. Later in the summer (September), you get less direct sunlight and its not as hot so your pool does not keep heating.

Having a gas heater and not using a solar blanket is akin to p!ssing your $, well, into the pool.

Having a solar heater and not using a solar blanket is worse because if its cloudy for a few days, all your heat will be gone and now the pool has to work extra hard to get the temp up again.

Theres pro's and con's but theres one certainty, you're going to need a solar blanket.

[Carnage]

If you do end up planning on getting a solar blanket as well as a seperate heater just remember that blankets do not heat pools.

Solar blankets do not work as heaters. They are used to keep the heat in. Basically you put it on overnight to keep the heat in the pool. then take it off during the day so that the sunlight can heat the pool.

[Rockstead]

My neighbour has this. He said is was more $ up front than a gas heater.
But then then you won't have any gas bills to cntend with. I imagine the gas bill would be atrocious for the beginning of the year when you are trying to heat 50 degree water up to 80 degrees. Having said that, with a gas heater, you have the choice of when your pool season starts and when it ends, although it doesn't matter hoe warm the pool is, no one is gonna go swimming in late september.

With solar, you need Hot sunlight, not just direct sunlight. If its cloudy, there's no heat. Later in the summer (September), you get less direct sunlight and its not as hot so your pool does not keep heating.

Having a gas heater and not using a solar blanket is akin to p!ssing your $, well, into the pool.

Having a solar heater and not using a solar blanket is worse because if its cloudy for a few days, all your heat will be gone and now the pool has to work extra hard to get the temp up again.

Theres pro's and con's but theres one certainty, you're going to need a solar blanket.

a kind RFDer just sent me a PM regarding the Solar panels, he mentioned that they were loud and that it takes some time getting used to the noise of the water, I didnt consider this and it may be a deal breaker, unless there is away to keep down the noice to a minimum.

[AudiDude]

Back in the 70s, my friend's dad wasn't to interested in paying to heat the pool so he put black PVC piping on a black 4'x8' board on the roof of the house and ran water through the PVC to heat it. The piping was zig-zagged across the board for maximum concentration of piping. I think it might be better if the pipes were trapped in a box (to trap solar energy) with a clear lid (plexiglass) and had a reflective interior. Use a pool cover in conjunction with this and the water should be fine.Look on the internet under solar cooking and you will see that with Home Depot and a weekend, you could build something that will work well. My friend's dad worked for Ontario Hydro as well, but it's tough to keep a good Scottsman down. :lol:

[Rockstead]

If you do end up planning on getting a solar blanket as well as a seperate heater just remember that blankets do not heat pools.

Solar blankets do not work as heaters. They are used to keep the heat in. Basically you put it on overnight to keep the heat in the pool. then take it off during the day so that the sunlight can heat the pool.


I had always though this as well until I found this article on blankets, sounds like you are refering to how a thermal blanket works, but a Solar blanket is actually supposed to heat a pool.


http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=142&PgId=884

"Two cover types are available. The first is a solar blanket (see Figure 5), which consists of a translucent cell or bubble arrangement of 0.3 mm (12 mil) polyethylene. It allows solar radiation to warm the water. This cover primarily prevents evaporative heat loss but also reduces heat loss through convection and conduction. With careful handling to prevent bubble breakage, it can last two to three swimming seasons.

The second type, a thermal blanket (see Figure 6), consists of a 3 mm (1/8 inch) layer of closed-cell polyethylene foam covered by a protective layer of woven polyethylene. It provides more insulation than a solar blanket, but because it is opaque it prevents solar radiation from warming the water. Leaving the pool uncovered on hot days will help warm the water. If you have a heated pool in a shaded area, an opaque blanket is the most cost-efficient cover you can get. It can last from four to five years."

[dgmorr]

With solar, you need Hot sunlight, not just direct sunlight. If its cloudy, there's no heat. Later in the summer (September), you get less direct sunlight and its not as hot so your pool does not keep heating.


You don't need HOT sunlight for photovoltaic cells to work. If you don't believe me, go in a large freezer with a flashlight and calculator....calculator still works. Maybe you meant the beams are not as strong on cloudy days? :confused:

But yes, direct sunlight will play a huge part in the power you get. You could always have a few batteries to store the power too, but that would probably drive up the cost.

[Carnage]

I had always though this as well until I found this article on blankets, sounds like you are refering to how a thermal blanket works, but a Solar blanket is actually supposed to heat a pool.


http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=142&PgId=884

"Two cover types are available. The first is a solar blanket (see Figure 5), which consists of a translucent cell or bubble arrangement of 0.3 mm (12 mil) polyethylene. It allows solar radiation to warm the water. This cover primarily prevents evaporative heat loss but also reduces heat loss through convection and conduction. With careful handling to prevent bubble breakage, it can last two to three swimming seasons.


We do indeed have a solar blanket.

Techically it does heat the pool. However you will not get amazing results from it.

In realistic terms you will use it as I mentioned. We only use our blanket during the evening to keep the heat in.

Now if we did leave it on in the day it would still heat the pool. But I've always found that the sun alone can do a better job.

And also the amount of use out of the blanket will depend on what kind of sunlight you get. Our pool is perfect as there are no trees nearby, and it's on the side of the house that gets the most sun.

a solar blanket is good of keeping the temps up in the summer months. But when you're talking early may, or september it's kind of an uphill battle. The blanket alone will not keep the temps up too much. It will help somewhat, but the cold weather will bring the temps down.

If you want to swim in early may, or september you're going to need a real heater.

[Rockstead]

I ended up finding two companies that do Solar Pool heaters, www.techno-solis.com, and Heliocol Canada.

Has anyone used either product and can make a recommendation?

I'm also looking for a Pool contractor for the Montreal area if anyone knows one.


Thanks

[Rockstead]

Thanks Ryan, I'll check it out, the cost of gas is exactly the reason why I want to go with Solar Powered.

In case anyone else is interested in doing this, In my research I found that you should stay away from "rubber" panels because of their
tendency to leach rubberizer (oil) into the water under high
temperature conditions (stagnation), This eleminates the
Fafco panel.

I had Fafco on my lists of Vendors to consider, I have since removed it.


Also, another member had said that these could be loud. I spoke to a vendor at a Home Soow and they said that the professional kits should be silent. I would love to hear feedback from someone using one of these professional kits.

[Rockstead]

Solar Ontario recommended the same people that I mentioned in a message above. I guess there aren't too many people doing this.

I guess the Pool companies don't want to be involved, the profit margin must be far greater with a Heat pump / Gas heater.

[EricMat]

Anybody ever considered the SunHeater solar pool heating system (http://www.costco.ca/en-CA/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10299554&whse=BCCA&topnav=&browse=) offered on Costco's website?
http://content.costco.ca/Images/Content/Product/126981c.jpg
160$ for 1 box (you might need more depending on pool size)


An In-Ground version of the same system is offered here
(http://www.costco.ca/en-CA/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10299552&whse=BCCA&topnav=&browse=)http://content.costco.ca/Images/Content/Product/126965c.jpg
230$ for 1 box (you might need more depending on pool size)

It looks really cheap and with Costco no hassle warranty, you can't go wrong... right? I'm really tempted to buy two sets (I think we need two for a 21ft pool).

If anybody already bought and tried one of those kits, please comment. They sure take a lot of space in your backyard and look kinda fugly... :(

Eric

[ecodad]

Rockstead,

I operate SolarOntario (and have 30 years in the solar business). I do suggest you read our section on solar blankets.

The Techno-Solis product is what I would recommend to you, it will give you the most heat for the dollar spent. (it was originally made in Quebec, now made in Florida) Pools require a tremendous amount of heat, so solar systems are not small. (Notice that a gas pool heater has a heating capacity of 250 thousand BTUs an hour. An average house furnace has a heating capacity of 80 thousand BTUs per hour, and when a gas pool heater runs, it runs for hours at a time!

Rubber products like Solex and Enersol are low efficiency solar collectors (meaning you need more of them to do the same job), but the leaching problems are basically fixed. Heliocol is the least efficient product on the market - according to Cdn. gov't tests. The Fafco Sunheater product is not rubber, and it is a good product - but not at all freeze tolerant (Techno-Solis is). I recommend staying far away from the Smart Pool Sunheater. (unless you want to be replacing your collectors every 2 years - after retrieving them from your neighbours yard!)

In your area I would start with a minimum of 60% of the pool's surface area - 6 - 4' x 12' Techno-Solis collectors - facing South. Do add the automatic solar controller - it will allow the system to work much more efficiently and deliver more heat than if you try to run it manually.

Regards

[johnredcorn1]

I have a 16x24 pool and have used the enersol solar for the last 5 years and it has been great.We have a very shaded yard and it was hard to get the pool in the 80's even in the mid summer with the solar it is no problem now. I installed the system myself at a cost of 1,200.It all depends on how many panels you need and the piping to run to the pump. The only draw backs are if your looking to swim earlier or later in the season it will not help that much. When the weather warms up tho my system will go up 6 degrees in the day and then down 4 at nite without the solar balanket on.Take a look at enersol.com they have all the info you need.

[ecodad]

Solar pool heating is one of those technical things that non-technical people can mess around with. This is why we in the business see all kinds of home-made and/or self-installed solar systems out there. The coils of black pipe on roofs and really cheap crappy products badly installed, etc. Ask any one of these do-it-yourselfers (or as I sometimes refer to them - do-in-yourselfers), and their pool now gets so hot they have to add cold water to cool it down - in december!!

The truth is that it takes a big, highly efficient, properly installed with an automatic controller, solar system to heat a pool well.

There are a number of products on the market that are aimed at the DIY market. These products are most often low-efficiency rubber products. Government tests (I don't trust the manufacturer's performance numbers) show that the rubber products deliver 30% to 40% less heat per square ft/metre than the high efficiency professional, plastic products like Fafco and Techno-Solis. That means you need 30% to 40% more of the low efficiency products to do the job (so instead of starting with 50% of the pool's surface area you have to start with 65% to70% of the pool's surface area).

Another significant sizing issue is the use of an automatic controller. Manually operated systems deliver significantly less heat than systems that use automatic controllers. If you run a solar system overnight you will cool the pool off - maybe losing more heat than you collected. Some people use a pump timer - which can work, except if it goes out of sync or if it's cloudy or raining... Also, a timer won't keep the solar system from overheating the pool either, auto controllers will.

As I have previously posted, the only solar pool heating product that I (currently) warn people about is the Sunheater by Smartpool. It has a very short lifespan and the roof mounting system fails badly. Cheap - but you're getting exactly what you pay for.

[Rockstead]

It's funny to see this thread re-appear after 4 years when I originally posted it.

Anyhow I did end up going for Solar, the one that is most recommended, the Techno-Solis, it wasn't cheap, factoring the material, the Automatic controls, and the installation I was almost at 4k, I had a ton of panels, close to 8 really large panels.

Now let me first say that it was fantastic when there was actually sun outside but it in no way extends your season in any way, but the time that you normally swim can be much more enjoyable. Also consider that you need to use a Solar Blanket, something I really despise having to open and close every day, not to mention the dirt that would fall in the pool after rolling it up. The past few summers in Montreal have been horrible, so even with the Solar system I was hardly swimming as the lack of sun.

Anyhow another cost you should be factoring in is the cost of having to remove and re-install this beast if you need to have your roof done, over the past few years we had tons of ice build up on the roofs here and it caused are roof to prematurely age. I can't begin to explain the hassle involved in having to get this thing down and the cost of having it professionally installed again.

As well you have to remember that this puts holes in your roof, something a roofer will always tell you that you want to avoid, yes it will be caulked but a hole is a hole, it will require maintenance in the future.

Anyhow, fastforward 4 years later, I'm in a new house with a new pool and I opted for a Heat pump this time. Start up costs were almost identical, but instead of only having parts of June, July, and August, I'm now swimming from May until the first of October day or night, regardless of the outside temperature and the new Heat pumps are so efficient that to my suprise it only cost about $500-$700 or so to run for the summer, and boy did I run this sucker, talk about being wasteful, I had this sucker on 24 hours a day locked in at 86, I've never had a more enjoyable swimming season and I didn't bother with the Solar blanket and I never have to worry about my roof.

I hear that Heat pumps would only last 10 years or so, I don't know how true that is ( I think I read that on the brochure whne I bought my Solar System),and so far I' ve had no experience dealing with repairs so I can't report on that either.

I personally would never go back to solar.

[CaptSmethwick]

It's funny to see this thread re-appear after 4 years when I originally posted it.

Anyhow I did end up going for Solar, the one that is most recommended, the Techno-Solis, it wasn't cheap, factoring the material, the Automatic controls, and the installation I was almost at 4k, I had a ton of panels, close to 8 really large panels.

Now let me first say that it was fantastic when there was actually sun outside but it in no way extends your season in any way, but the time that you normally swim can be much more enjoyable. Also consider that you need to use a Solar Blanket, something I really despise having to open and close every day, not to mention the dirt that would fall in the pool after rolling it up. The past few summers in Montreal have been horrible, so even with the Solar system I was hardly swimming as the lack of sun.

Anyhow another cost you should be factoring in is the cost of having to remove and re-install this beast if you need to have your roof done, over the past few years we had tons of ice build up on the roofs here and it caused are roof to prematurely age. I can't begin to explain the hassle involved in having to get this thing down and the cost of having it professionally installed again.

As well you have to remember that this puts holes in your roof, something a roofer will always tell you that you want to avoid, yes it will be caulked but a hole is a hole, it will require maintenance in the future.

Anyhow, fastforward 4 years later, I'm in a new house with a new pool and I opted for a Heat pump this time. Start up costs were almost identical, but instead of only having parts of June, July, and August, I'm now swimming from May until the first of October day or night, regardless of the outside temperature and the new Heat pumps are so efficient that to my suprise it only cost about $500-$700 or so to run for the summer, and boy did I run this sucker, talk about being wasteful, I had this sucker on 24 hours a day locked in at 86, I've never had a more enjoyable swimming season and I didn't bother with the Solar blanket and I never have to worry about my roof.

I hear that Heat pumps would only last 10 years or so, I don't know how true that is ( I think I read that on the brochure whne I bought my Solar System),and so far I' ve had no experience dealing with repairs so I can't report on that either.

I personally would never go back to solar.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

What size is your heat pump and how do you find the noise level?

[Heynow999]

Thats fine in Quebec in the land of cheap electricity but how many Kw did you use? Try doing that in Ontario with the new TOU billing and you would not be so happy.

So it was 4k for your first system that has a 20 year life span. You paid 4k(?) for your heat pump with a ten year life, plus $600/year to run it.

Your yearly cost for solar would be $200

Your yearly cost for a heat pump would be $1000

I know a lot of people who have spent $1500 a year on gas to heat a pool.

And yes I do sell solar panels so I am biased.

[Oakman]

We installed a roof top solar heating system three years ago. It was a great investment. We rarely use the gas heater now. In cooler weather, the gas heater will quickly raise the pool temperature the few degrees we need to make the pool comfortable.

In warm weather, we never need the pool heater. Even if it gets cool at night.

[Rockstead]

Thats fine in Quebec in the land of cheap electricity but how many Kw did you use? Try doing that in Ontario with the new TOU billing and you would not be so happy.

So it was 4k for your first system that has a 20 year life span. You paid 4k(?) for your heat pump with a ten year life, plus $600/year to run it.

Your yearly cost for solar would be $200

Your yearly cost for a heat pump would be $1000

I know a lot of people who have spent $1500 a year on gas to heat a pool.

And yes I do sell solar panels so I am biased.

Yes but you need to factor in that I' m getting an extra two full months of pleasurable swim time, not to mention I'm enjoying all of the time during all of those months regardless of the weather, well worth the price increase for a family with a bunch of kids.

the 10 year life span of the Heat Pump remains to be seen, I was quoting the Solar people on that one.

Now I also mentioned how wasteful I am, throw in a solar blanket with that Heat pump and have it not run during the night, I could probably cut at least 30-40% of my cost, now if I hadn't gotten used to swimming in Senior Citizen temperatures I could save even more money, but I could never go back now.

You also didn't factor in removal and reinstallation costs for the system when you need to re-do your roof or ever have some sort of repair to be done, nor the cost of maintenance to make sure never of these holes in your roof eventually let in water.

It's true the cost of a Heat pump will be greater, I can't argue that the cost may be 5 times more over the span of ten years from your example, but I'm enjoying it 20 times more, probably more.

Anyhow, been there, done that. I've had the best of the best of Solar, an extensive system that covered my entire large roof. I'm Very happy with a Heat pump, would never go back.

[Rockstead]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

What size is your heat pump and how do you find the noise level?

I I think it is 120,000 BTU, it's a Summit4 for an 18x36 pool.

I have it very close to my pool but behind a Cabana, I don't think I can hear it at all.

[CaptSmethwick]

I I think it is 120,000 BTU, it's a Summit4 for an 18x36 pool.

I have it very close to my pool but behind a Cabana, I don't think I can hear it at all.

Cool!

We have a 20'x40' pool and a 400k BTU NG heater. Last year, we swam regularly from mid-April through to Thanksgiving weekend. Yes, we use a solar blanket every evening and our pool is only heated to ~80-81F but our heating cost last year was ~$600. It would be fair to say that this cost would double if we wanted to heat our pool another 5°F.

From the prices I've seen for appropriately-sized heat pumps (and their operating costs), the NG savings would only be worth our while if we wanted our pool that warm. Am I off base on this?

[Rockstead]

Cool!

We have a 20'x40' pool and a 400k BTU NG heater. Last year, we swam regularly from mid-April through to Thanksgiving weekend. Yes, we use a solar blanket every evening and our pool is only heated to ~80-81F but our heating cost last year was ~$600. It would be fair to say that this cost would double if we wanted to heat our pool another 5°F.

From the prices I've seen for appropriately-sized heat pumps (and their operating costs), the NG savings would only be worth our while if we wanted our pool that warm. Am I off base on this?


I verified and I have a Summit5, it is supposed to be one of the quietest ones on the market, sorry I have no idea how to answer your other question.

[Jimmynewtron]

Yes but you need to factor in that I' m getting an extra two full months of pleasurable swim time, not to mention I'm enjoying all of the time during all of those months regardless of the weather, well worth the price increase for a family with a bunch of kids.

the 10 year life span of the Heat Pump remains to be seen, I was quoting the Solar people on that one.

Now I also mentioned how wasteful I am, throw in a solar blanket with that Heat pump and have it not run during the night, I could probably cut at least 30-40% of my cost, now if I hadn't gotten used to swimming in Senior Citizen temperatures I could save even more money, but I could never go back now.

You also didn't factor in removal and reinstallation costs for the system when you need to re-do your roof or ever have some sort of repair to be done, nor the cost of maintenance to make sure never of these holes in your roof eventually let in water.

It's true the cost of a Heat pump will be greater, I can't argue that the cost may be 5 times more over the span of ten years from your example, but I'm enjoying it 20 times more, probably more.

Anyhow, been there, done that. I've had the best of the best of Solar, an extensive system that covered my entire large roof. I'm Very happy with a Heat pump, would never go back.


I just finished installing a Techno-solaris system last summer (Ontario Solar did a real nice job) and I think it was just over $5K all in. I researched than whole idea of solar heating and while it does do the job when it's sunny (hopefully this summer we'll get some:cheesygri), it doesn't work any other time (no big surprise). At this point, I'm not sure I'd spend the money again as it doesn't heat it up as much as I had hoped (keeps it in the mid 80's but that's it). Now it is environmentally friendly but you have to run the pump all day long and with the new TOU rates, it could get expensive. I think with the heat pump, you could run it in off peak hours, you can use it when it's not sunny and it will probably use less hydro than my set up to run. The life span thing might be true but I get your comment on 5 times more expensive but 20X more enjoyable. There is nothing less appealing than a cold swimming pool. I guess it's true that there is no such thing as a free ride...

[Rockstead]

I just finished installing a Techno-solaris system last summer (Ontario Solar did a real nice job) and I think it was just over $5K all in. I researched than whole idea of solar heating and while it does do the job when it's sunny (hopefully this summer we'll get some:cheesygri), it doesn't work any other time (no big surprise). At this point, I'm not sure I'd spend the money again as it doesn't heat it up as much as I had hoped (keeps it in the mid 80's but that's it). Now it is environmentally friendly but you have to run the pump all day long and with the new TOU rates, it could get expensive. I think with the heat pump, you could run it in off peak hours, you can use it when it's not sunny and it will probably use less hydro than my set up to run. The life span thing might be true but I get your comment on 5 times more expensive but 20X more enjoyable. There is nothing less appealing than a cold swimming pool. I guess it's true that there is no such thing as a free ride...

Yeah pretty much my experience as well, wow 5k, I had almost 400 square feet of the solar panels, maybe a little more, along with the automatic controls, I think I was closer to 4K but that was about 4 years ago, and about 4 years ago when summer was actually hot in Montreal, I was able to get closer to 88-90 if it was really hot outside and as long as I was using the Solar blanket, the last 2 years I almost didn't swim the summers were so bad.

[Heynow999]

I just finished installing a Techno-solaris system last summer (Ontario Solar did a real nice job) and I think it was just over $5K all in. I researched than whole idea of solar heating and while it does do the job when it's sunny (hopefully this summer we'll get some:cheesygri), it doesn't work any other time (no big surprise). At this point, I'm not sure I'd spend the money again as it doesn't heat it up as much as I had hoped (keeps it in the mid 80's but that's it). Now it is environmentally friendly but you have to run the pump all day long and with the new TOU rates, it could get expensive.

I wouldn't worry too much about the cost to run the pump. You probably have a 1 HP pump which means it will use a maximum of 746 watts, probably less. This means it will cost you about 8 cents an hour to run. Oh yea, TOU! ok a bit more I guess

It was also a cool summer. We had customers complain about the lack of heat.

[ecodad]

Disclaimer: Yes I'm in the solar business - I've been at it for over 30 years. I've heard a whole lot of guff about solar & heat pump systems. Most of the people who are selling these systems are not technically educated - and these are technical products....

Lots of talk here about heat pumps. Basically they are electric heaters - efficient electric heaters - but electric heaters. In our climate (Southern Ontario) their average COP is a little better than 3. Not the 5 you hear talked about - that number comes from Florida....
Also our electricity is about 12 cent/ kwhr.(twice the price of electricity in Quebec) . A pool pump will have to operate about 12 hours a day to provide the filtering needed for a warm pool. Cold pools need less filtering/pump run time. A 1 HP pump uses about 2 HP (1500 watts) worth of electricity (they are 50% efficient). so it costs about 19 cents an hour to run the pool pump or $2.30 a day - about $70 a month, $350 a season. With TOU rates it will be somewhat higher if the pump is run during the day, rather than at night.(Maybe 10% more)
Heat pumps use 3 - 5 HP motors. They don't run 12 hours a day - except when it's cool outside (then they may operate 24 hrs a day). It's not hard for a heat pump to cost over $1000 to operate for a season. Also you are lucky if it lasts 7 years without major repair bills - ie: replace the whole system. If you have a salt water pool there can be heater problems with both heat pumps and natural gas heaters - because of the metal heat exchangers - not the case with plastic or rubber solar systems .

A comment about Rockstead's comment about the costs of removing the solar system. An honest solar installer would have told him to redo the roof before installing the solar system. It would have been very apparent that the roof had less than 3 years of life left on it - and he should have been told that. Also removing and reinstalling a solar system is part of the everyday business for a solar company - it should have been no big deal, although it would likely cost $700 - $1000 depending upon how complex the roof was. Note that solar panels actually protect the shingles they lie on top of - by keeping the UV off and taking the heat away.

A properly sized solar system will add 6 - 8 weeks to a conventional season (over an unheated pool). With a natural gas heater you could operate your pool all year - for a phenomenal cost.... A heat pump will also be able to extend the season for a somewhat less phenomenal cost:) (Heat pumps cannot heat as well as a gas heaters) Right now with depressed gas prices, a heat pump has only about a 10 - 20% operating cost advantage over a gas heater (in Ontario).

[Rockstead]

Disclaimer: Yes I'm in the solar business - I've been at it for over 30 years.).

Yes it shows your a salesman, you talk in half truths and use dated examples to say your products is better, and ignore real world experiences and examples provided by actual users of your product.


Lots of talk here about heat pumps. Basically they are electric heaters - efficient electric heaters - but electric heaters. In our climate (Southern Ontario) their average COP is a little better than 3. Not the 5 you hear talked about - that number comes from Florida....

My heat pump has a COP of 5.5, please refer me to the study, or specialized test you can reference that confirms what you say the actual COP actually is.


It's not hard for a heat pump to cost over $1000 to operate for a season. Also you are lucky if it lasts 7 years without major repair bills - ie: replace the whole system..

Wow, that's a serious claim, Heat pumps only last 7 years...please back that up with fact please, another salesman claim made to sell his product.


If you have a salt water pool there can be heater problems with both heat pumps and natural gas heaters - because of the metal heat exchangers - not the case with plastic or rubber solar systems.

Here's another salesman scare tactic, not to mention you reference old technology.

Heat pumps are sold with and have been for many years with something called a Titanium Heat Exchanger, there is absolutely no issue with a Salt Water system and a Titanium Heat Exchanger. Anyone educated in these products knows that, to suggest that someone who has a a Salt Water pool would use one of these older technology heat pumps, why would you even say that?

Now how about you reference the leeching issues of the rubber the Solar systems use to have, I hope that problem never resurfaces, sounds hazardous.



A comment about Rockstead's comment about the
costs of removing the solar system. An honest solar installer would have told him to redo the roof before installing the solar system. It would have been very apparent that the roof had less than 3 years of life left on it -

I already mentioned in my experience that my age prematurely aged with ice damns that occurred over a 4 year period, I knew going in to it that my roof was just in decent shape, but it turned poor so quickly due to the ice damns, not to mention the ice that had to be physically removed by a company, so I have all these guys walking on the panels, walking on the roof, trying to remove ice. Again, anything can happen with your roof, we've had terrible storms where shingles fall off, ice damns, maintenance on my chimney. You really don't want people walking all over these things, I even had to have a panel replaced.

You don't talk about all the nail holes that are now in your roof because of this, these things need to be maintained, you need to re-caulk and make sure there is no water penetration over the years because of it. Good luck if you ever have an issue with your roof and you call the roofing company about the warranty, guaranteed they will argue or not honour your warranty (legitimate or not) just because you have these on.


and he should have been told that. Also removing ad reinstalling a solar system is part of the everyday business for a solar company - it should have been no big deal, although it would likely cost $700 - $1000 depending upon how complex the roof was.

Wow, $700-$100 is a big deal to most people, what do you mean? and do you realize the hassle and involved just dealing with this, storing them, waiting to have them re-installed after you roofer finally shows up, missing out on your swim season.


A properly sized solar system will add 6 - 8 weeks to a conventional season (over an unheated pool).

Now you just had two people in this thread that have extensive Techno Solis solar panels, both with the automatic controls, and both of us have said that it does not extend your season in any way, it makes the season you normally have better, telling people that it can ad 8 weeks of season in our climate is an outright lie, it's not even a half truth.


With a natural gas heater you could operate your pool all year - for a phenomenal cost.... A heat pump will also be able to extend the season for a somewhat less phenomenal cost:) (Heat pumps cannot heat as well as a gas heaters) Right now with depressed gas prices, a heat pump has only about a 10 - 20% operating cost advantage over a gas heater (in Ontario).

I love the way you compare a Gas heater to a heat pump, you could go crazy with a gas heater, if you left that sucker on the way I did my Heat pump, man you would be in the thousands for the cost. Usually wealthy people have gas heaters, it can heat up so quickly but at such a cost.

I was very honest in how wasteful I used my Heat pump, I had it on 24 hours a day to a very high temperature, I didn't use a solar blanket, and it truly extends your season for two months, and if I had kept it at a normal temperature, if I used timers for my pump and heater, I could have reduced my cost upwards of 50%, so even doubling that cost is very reasonable for people in Ontario , especially considering how much more you will use your pool. Not to mention my pools i very large, 18x36 with a large deep end.

[ecodad]

Rockstead - yes I qualified upfront that I am in the solar business, I wonder what you do for a living???

I do not deal in half truths - you have stated your opinion, I deal in facts. I have over 30 years of technical experience & training in the design and installation of hundreds of solar heating systems for residential, commercial and municipal applications, YOU? I sit on four CSA standards technical committees for solar products, YOU? I write technical articles and lecture on solar heating, YOU? I use only real-world experiences not fabricated best-case scenarios (such as your heat pump stories).

You have owned ONE solar system, which for all we know was not properly sized, installed or maintained. Doing the math - you owned it for less than 4 years, since you have has so much experience with your heat pump - and you bought your solar system in 2005.

You have NO IDEA what the actual COP of your heat pump is. If you are gullible enough to believe the manufacturer's claims - I've got some prime real estate in Florida you should invest in! I don't believe any of the claims from manufacturers and I've dealt with over 18 different manufacturers. 3rd party, independent testing is the only legitimate means of evaluating any product. There is no standard for testing pool heat pumps - it's the wild west out there for them - they make all kinds of unsupportable claims.

Re the longevity of pool heat pumps - talk to the service people who repair / remove heat pumps, not to the salesmen who sell them. I go from what I encounter in the field. I concede a bias against heat pumps - at least here in Ontario where until recently we had electrical shortages in the Summer. I consider that it's a bad thing to use a wasteful appliance that could take down the grid... Not to mention the environmental damage from the consumption of electricity and the potential to damage the ozone layer because of the refrigerant in them leaking. Before you try and say the refrigerant is ozone friendly - that's bunk - the new refrigerants still damage the ozone layer - just not quite as much. NOT ALL POOL HEAT PUMPS ARE SALT-FRIENDLY. The cheaper ones still use copper heat exchangers - the kind you would likely use....

Any solar system that was installed using nails was installed by idiots. A properly installed solar system - installed by companies that know what they are doing - will not cause leaks on the roof. Each solar roof penetration should be properly sealed with a sealant that will last at least as long as the roof. Sounds like you got a sloppy job.

If you object to paying $700 to $1000 every 15 years to have the solar system removed and reinstalled - I wonder what you're going to think about replacing your $4000+ heat pump in 7 years...... Who the hell has the issues you had having your system taken down for reshingling??? Was your solar company totally incompetent?? It should take no more than 2 weeks between the removal and reinstall of a system - assuming the roofers were on time & quick. Sounds like you tried to cheap-out on the installation company - guess you got what you paid for....

Re: the cost of operating a gas heater vs a heat pump - the story is different in different places..... In Ontario natural gas is cheaper than in the limited areas it is available in Quebec - Also electricity is about 50% cheaper in Quebec. So the numbers here aren't nearly as good as you make them out to be. YOU would easily spend over $1000 on electricity running your heat pump in Ontario.

Re: extending the season - solar systems cannot extend the season better than a gas heater (nothing can). The extension of the season by a solar system is a total of 6 -8 weeks compared to AN UNHEATED POOL. I have hundreds of customers who can make this claim. If solar is used with a properly deployed solar blanket (used in the Spring and Fall) you can get a substantially longer season. The caveat being it has to weather that you would like to swim in - sunny & mild. If the weather is cloudy and cold a solar system won't do anything - this shouldn't matter unless you are a polar bear swimmer. It is important to have a properly sized system to reheat the pool quickly. In the Montreal area I'd suggest that this is a MINIMUM of 60% of the pool's surface area - IF the collectors face South and IF there is no shade on the pool or collectors between 9 and 5. Otherwise the solar system should be significantly bigger.

I've been very honest in presenting the information without trying to twist it in my favour. Based upon what you have described it appears you tired to cheap-out on the installation of your solar system. Even the best equipment in the world will not last or perform well if not properly installed........

[Rockstead]

Ecodad,

You know it's sad, you just join the forum a few days ago and you come and reply to an old thread that I started 5 years ago, how transparent you are, I guess sales aren't going so well and you were hoping to drum up some business for the upcoming season, understandable considering how bad summers have been...there are better ways, and Redflagdeals is one place where you'll find many users that like to educate themselves on a potential purchase, or at least share in other people's experiences.

You say that I had a bad installers? that's funny because it's like you said, the techno Solis panels originated in Quebec, there is only one company doing them in Montreal and they have been for many years.

Anyhow it's typical, you have someone telling people that it is not the dream you make it out to be and you try to twist facts.

You dance over all the coments I made, you use your credentials as a Solar panel salesman to make up stuff about warranties, pricing, cost of use and longevity of competing products.

I'm not interested in "discussing this any further", I think that anyone that finds this thread over the next few years will be able to see my points, my experience, the comments from another user that had your company install one as well and be able to make their own decision, at least they will be more informed.

I'm not anti solar, I enjoyed the system when it was hot and sunny outside and actually heated up the pool, I just wouldn't go back after having used a good heat pump. Anyone investing in the tens of thousands of dollars it costs to build a pool will want to make the best of it and someone that considers costs will want to weigh the balance between enjoying the pool as much as possible for a reasonable amount vs hardly at all or waiting for days of sunshine in order for your pool to remain hot.

You have been far from honest, at the end of the day someone will read this and based on some of your false facts, they might decide not to use you or your company, all you did was cost yourself and your company sales. You could have gone another direction and said that other people have been happy with the system and it has its application and purpose. If you were willing to go so far in a message forum, I can only imagine what you say to make the hard sell in person to the unsuspecting and uneducated consumer.

The internet is a powerful thing and now when people google Solar Ontario, solar panels, it is likely this thread will appear, at least someone will be able to make a more informed decision before making the purchase and deciding if they can trust a company they were considering.

[ecodad]

Rockstead,

It is apparent to me that you have something to hide. You haven't answered my questions, you have simply tried to slander me - stating that I lie about what solar is capable of providing. I strongly suspect you are in a competing business - such as heat pump manufacturing for example - why wouldn't you answer that question?? I addressed each of your issues - and you call me transparent. Your best retort is to slander me - that's some comeback.

We are very very busy, mainly because we are a very reputable solar firm that don't do, and never have done, high pressure sales - most of our sales come from referrals - that doesn't happen if customers are unhappy.

The forum is a place for the exchange of information and ideas - I have been up front from the very beginning that I am in the solar business - and simply trying to provide info on the possibilities and limitations about solar pool heating. Because my info doesn't support your particular experience you figure I'm not telling the truth - well bub, you're not the centre of the world. It's particularly sad that you have such a jaundiced opinion of people like myself, who are experts in their field, if their information doesn't jive with your singular experience.

You can continue your wasteful ways (your own words) and keep using your heat pump, until it dies - probably within the next 7 years - with no regard for the environmental consequences.

Yes people will judge the content of these posts - and I have nothing to retract. Solar pool heating works - if it is sized and installed properly. If you must swim when the weather is bad - raining, windy cold - you need a gas heater - solar & heat pumps can't keep up under those conditions. If you are a fair-weather swimmer, then a good, properly sized solar system can do 90% of what you are looking for - and they heat for free, with no bad environmental side effects. As I have previously stated, if you want to extend the swimming season 6-8 weeks you will need to use a solar blanket as well.

[Rockstead]

It is apparent to me that you have something to hide. You haven't answered my questions, you have simply tried to slander me - stating that I lie about what solar is capable of providing. I strongly suspect you are in a competing business - such as heat pump manufacturing for example - why wouldn't you answer that question?? I addressed each of your issues - and you call me transparent. Your best retort is to slander me - that's some comeback.


OK seriously, are you coocoo? I started this thread 5 years ago, I purchased this product and you replied to my thread 5 years later. Yes this was my master plan, I'm a competitor and my plan was to plant a seed 5 years earlier in the hopes that you would reply to this in 5 years and my plan worked!!!!! wait until you see what I have in store in 5 years from now.

[jjtsl]

Chill out guys. Rockstead, it sounds like you had a bad experience with solar pool heating, and that's fine.

I was looking into solar pool heating earlier this summer (you can check my previous posts), and ecodad was one of the solar companies that I spoke with. Although in the end I did not go with solar pool heating, I thought that ecodad was honest, had great credentials and was not pitching the product to me just to make a quick buck. If you want to talk about salesmanship, there was one company in Markham I won't name that was trying to sell me everything from solar pool heating, solar panels for electricity, solar hot water tank and tankless hot water system all at the same time! After that initial call, the company was calling me a couple of times a week until I had to tell them that I was broke :lol:

[Rockstead]

Chill out guys. Rockstead, it sounds like you had a bad experience with solar pool heating, and that's fine.

Really, it's quite the contrary, read through the entire thread and you'll see. I enjoyed my Solar experience, and if the temperature remained really hot and sunny for a few days, my pool temperature could go as high as 90 degrees, in fact the people that own my house now are enjoying it.

I was just speaking about real world issues that you could encounter with solar, it's not a dream product, there are hassles and costs involved, it doesn't end with electricity, it doesn't extend your season it just makes the time you would normally enjoy even better and the second time around I'm much happier with a heat pump and the costs associated are not very high as some would make it out to be, and they aren't breaking down every other day or need to be replaced every 7 years and Salt water pool aren't affecting Heat pumps made to work with salt water pools, etc.

[jjtsl]

My bad, I should have said "Rockstead, it sounds like you are happier with your heat pump, and that's fine.":cheesygri

[stucandu]

I just finished installing a Techno-solaris system last summer (Ontario Solar did a real nice job).
At this point, I'm not sure I'd spend the money again as it doesn't heat it up as much as I had hoped (keeps it in the mid 80's but that's it).:confused:

I don't understand why anyone would want their pool to be any warmer than 82, 84 tops.
It's a swimming pool, not a bathtub. It's supposed to be refreshing and cool you off.
If you want hot, get a feakin hot tub.
:cheesygri

[Rockstead]

:confused:

I don't understand why anyone would want their pool to be any warmer than 82, 84 tops.
It's a swimming pool, not a bathtub. It's supposed to be refreshing and cool you off.
If you want hot, get a feakin hot tub.
:cheesygri


Really I used to feel the exact same way, I was like I'm never going to enjoy temperatures that high, so maybe it's a sign of aging.

[Jimmynewtron]

:confused:

I don't understand why anyone would want their pool to be any warmer than 82, 84 tops.
It's a swimming pool, not a bathtub. It's supposed to be refreshing and cool you off.
If you want hot, get a feakin hot tub.
:cheesygri

So here's the deal:

Lots of little kids + 82 degrees = shivering kids. Not a lot of fun.>:(

When you crank it to 86-88, EVERYONE is much happier:-0. Especially Mom and Dad.

Maybe it's not as "refreshing" but it's a better overall compromise. The only real downside is everyone wants to swim in the pool because (unlike the neighbours), it the "warm one":cheesygri

Jim.
PS We actually have hot tub as well. Nobody at my place is getting chilled (except if they spill their margarita)