Gomery partially lifts publication ban ...

[Rosico]

Any thoughts on this? Quite a read in total. I knew snippits from friends and other blogs but wow ...

Globe and Mail:
canadians get punk'd (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050407.wgomeryha0407a/BNStory/Front/)

[asim99]

the link is not working....
the following in from toronto star

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1112868798104&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes


Witness recalls envelopes full of cash


MIRO CERNETIG
STAFF REPORTER

MONTREAL — The Liberal Party of Canada used hundreds of thousands of dollars taken from the sponsorship program to fund its political activities in Quebec, the Gomery Commission has been told.
Former ad executive Jean Brault also said that he delivered $136,000 in cash -- often in envelopes -- to senior Liberal Party officials. That money came out of the coffers of Groupaction between 1996 and 2001, alleged Brault, the firm's former president, under testimony that can now be revealed.

Groupaction made the bulk of its profits from the $170 million in federal contracts it was given during the era of Prime Minister Jean Chrétien.

Justice John Gomery, who had imposed a publication ban on some recent testimony, partially lifted that ban today. Some details are still unreportable.

In testimony that can now be revealed, Brault also said he was instructed to send $50,000 to the Quebec Liberal party, during the 1998 election. It was sent to the Liberal friendly ad firm Groupe Everest.

Senior Liberal organizer Jacques Corriveau, a long-time friend of former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, also extracted almost $500,000 for the party from sponsorship contracts, Brault alleged.

The money came from $4.2 million in commissions that Groupaction charged on a series of contracts totaling $35 million that were sent to Groupe Polygone and Expour, companies that put on trade shows and published books to promote Canada. Brault testified that Corriveau’s company arranged to take more than 10 per cent of Groupaction’s commission from 1997 to 2001 for political purposes.

He did so by creating false invoices -- for $489,000 -- that Groupaction paid out of its sponsorship commission, Brault alleged.

“So...the invoices I called 'disguised' from Corriveau and the payments you made were, if the truth be told, your financial contribution to the cause and these came out of your profits for Expour and Polygone," asked Gomery Commission counsel Bernard Roy.

"Yes," replied Mr. Brault.

Brault has testified that he believed all the money he sent to Corriveau was destined to help what a top organizer called “the cause.�

But under cross-examination by the Liberal Party’s lawyer, Doug Mitchell, Brault acknowledged he did not know for sure that the money actually made it to the Liberal Party of Canada. Mitchell pointed out that donations by Corriveau, his wife and company to the Liberal Party totalled $66,000.

Asked if he knew if the rest of the money was also sent to the party, Brault said, “no idea.�

“Before you brought that fact to my attention, I always was under the impression that it was destined for the cause. I deduced the cause was the party.�

But Brault made more allegations that other of his donations to the Liberal Party were paid back, at least in part, through some of the $61 million in sponsorship money directed to Groupaction.

Brault testified that he was told in one case those expenses would be made up by a sponsorship contract that would be directed his way. He alleged that the Liberal Party’s senior official in Quebec, Benoit Corbeil, asked him for $400,000 for the party and told him that he would get a sponsorship contract soon-after.

“Mr. Corbeil came to see me, he asked me for $400,000 after the election. I didn’t answer. He came back and said a sponsorship was going to be awarded to me in April for $3 million, or something like that, of which based on my 12 per cent (commission) I would at least be able to recover my investment or outlay...

“And that’s what happened,� said Brault, adding he paid only $60,000, though could not remember who got the money.

Brault testified he was asked to put Liberals on his staff at Groupaction, with salaries that approached $8,000 a month.

Once there, they did nothing for the company, he said. One spent his time on the phone doing party work. The other was never around, though he did publish a favorable biography on Alfonso Gagliano, the former Public Works minister who ran the $250-million program.

Brault also testified that he sent $100,000, over two years, to the Parti Quebecois. He did that by having Groupaction employees make the donations and later reimbursing them. Brault said that he thought it might help protect a contract he had with the provincial liquor board.

Another $50,000 in cash was delivered for the Liberal Party to Joseph Morselli, a Liberal worker and a long-time ally of former Public Works

[devious9191]

I have a quick question. It seems to me that regardless of what comes out of this entire thing, the same group of people that always vote liberal are going to continue to do.

Doesn't it bother anyone else that you pay such a huge percentage of your hard earned income to keep these guys on the golf course?

Does it bother anyone that our military gets weaker every single year, and the current budget that's being applauded, barely keeps up with the upkeep of the relics that our nation uses to defend our freedom.

Does it bother anyone else that our relations with our #1 trading partner and ally are going to hell day by day? I'm sure the farmers in this country have an opinion on this one.

I'm not exactly sure what canada's love affair is with the liberal government, since it's not something I share. The West couldn't be happier to get rid of these guys, and the east votes them in election after election. When the West decides it's had enough, I think I'll be on the next flight over there to join them.

[d_jedi]

I have a quick question. It seems to me that regardless of what comes out of this entire thing, the same group of people that always vote liberal are going to continue to do.

Doesn't it bother anyone else that you pay such a huge percentage of your hard earned income to keep these guys on the golf course?
Yes

Does it bother anyone that our military gets weaker every single year, and the current budget that's being applauded, barely keeps up with the upkeep of the relics that our nation uses to defend our freedom.
Yes

Does it bother anyone else that our relations with our #1 trading partner and ally are going to hell day by day? I'm sure the farmers in this country have an opinion on this one.
Yes

I'm not exactly sure what canada's love affair is with the liberal government, since it's not something I share. The West couldn't be happier to get rid of these guys, and the east votes them in election after election. When the West decides it's had enough, I think I'll be on the next flight over there to join them.
Because the other parties will probably f*** up things even more? As they say, the devil you know..

[luthair]

The conservatives did similar things when they were in power. Here (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/groupaction/scandals.html) is the CBC's list of the top 10 scandals in history.

Note that the last conservative government (Mulroney) government took 3 out of 10 and overall conservatives 5/10.

NDP got off scott free, but then again they haven't won yet.

[Freak]

Because the other parties will probably f*** up things even more? As they say, the devil you know..
So true. So many people want to get rid of the Liberals...but what are our options? The Conservatives/Reform or the NDP? What are their track records??? Why does anyone think that either of these options will be better? It seems that being an elected official is a license to steal and plunder from the taxpayers. I hope that somehow Craptien, Dithers etc. all end up being implecated in this mess...but I am sure as usually happens this Mr. Brault guy will end up taking the fall for what numerous people are responsible for...

I will be voting NDP in the next election...or nobody...geez at least the Fiberals don't have a majority government right now!!!

Freak

[d_jedi]

So true. So many people want to get rid of the Liberals...but what are our options? The Conservatives/Reform or the NDP? What are their track records??? Why does anyone think that either of these options will be better? It seems that being an elected official is a license to steal and plunder from the taxpayers. I hope that somehow Craptien, Dithers etc. all end up being implecated in this mess...but I am sure as usually happens this Mr. Brault guy will end up taking the fall for what numerous people are responsible for...

I will be voting NDP in the next election...or nobody...geez at least the Fiberals don't have a majority government right now!!!

Freak

Personally, I'd be all for the Conservatives; I happen to agree with most of their social policy.. but their environmental policy is appalling. I cannot in good conscience vote for them. OTOH, the NDP has a good environmental policy, but I simply cannot support their social policy. And there ain't no way in hell I'm voting Liberal.

Looks like I'll be with the Green's again!

[Rosico]

The conservatives did similar things when they were in power. Here (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/groupaction/scandals.html) is the CBC's list of the top 10 scandals in history.

Note that the last conservative government (Mulroney) government took 3 out of 10 and overall conservatives 5/10.

NDP got off scott free, but then again they haven't won yet.

Wow, and the Chretian Liberals have 3/10 too! I think recent memory may be in play here ... Hard to think two decades have given us 6/10 of the top scandals.

As for voting, IMHO the biggest reason why the liberals reamain is that Ontario voters are not convinced that the Conservatives are yet a 'govt in waiting' and they don't even have a foothold in Quebec because their perceived social values are in such conflict with Quebecers normative values.

[guest10586]

Western canada is leaning towards Conservatives. :o

This scandal isn't a huge deal here imo. Harper is trying to win over Ontario, not the western provinces.

[spidermoore]

Voters need to keep politicians accountable. Unaccountability is why these things happen in the first place. The Liberals felt indestructable because the voters in Ontario kept voting them in regardless of how poorly they robbed us.

Congratulations Liberal voters, you've screwed us again.

Also, for those of you that say Mulrouney blah blah blah, how many candidates (of any party) were in the Mulrouney government? None as far as I can tell. It is extremely unfair that some people are so down on the current Conservative party because of things none of them did.

I never understood why so many people think that socon values will be dictated to the country if the Conservatives get in, when the socon values are not even shared by the entire party, let alone mandated as policy.

[luthair]

Voters need to keep politicians accountable. Unaccountability is why these things happen in the first place. The Liberals felt indestructable because the voters in Ontario kept voting them in regardless of how poorly they robbed us.

Congratulations Liberal voters, you've screwed us again.

I disagree, scandals happen because people don't really think about what they're doing. Very few are MPs by day and Dr Evil by night, that goes for any party.


Also, for those of you that say Mulrouney blah blah blah, how many candidates (of any party) were in the Mulrouney government? None as far as I can tell. It is extremely unfair that some people are so down on the current Conservative party because of things none of them did.

The same could be said of the people linked to the sponsership scandal, all, or nearly all are no longer members.


I never understood why so many people think that socon values will be dictated to the country if the Conservatives get in, when the socon values are not even shared by the entire party, let alone mandated as policy.

A lot of it is associated with party leaders, Joe Clark might have had a chance (well, if he hadn't blown it once) but the string of leaders from reform don't; most eastern provinces see them as Americanized politicians. The PC party has also taken anti-gay marriage and pro privatized heathcare stances.

[Prometheus]

The PC party has also taken anti-gay marriage and pro privatized heathcare stances.

I think you meant to say, the Conservative party has taken pro-traditional marriage stance. They also figured out the existing health care system is unsustainable and looking for ways to reduce cost.

On the other hand, Liberals want to fix health care by introducing Health Care Premium (tax)...

[canrocks]

Personally, I'd be all for the Conservatives; I happen to agree with most of their social policy.. but their environmental policy is appalling. I cannot in good conscience vote for them. OTOH, the NDP has a good environmental policy, but I simply cannot support their social policy. And there ain't no way in hell I'm voting Liberal.

Looks like I'll be with the Green's again!
Good decision! They're not nearly as fringe as they used to be. In a provincial byelection, they got 10%, versus the liberals at 16.7%.
http://main.greenparty.ca/page67.html#maximum

In the second best showing ever in an Ontario election, Green Party leader, Frank de Jong, won 10% in the March 17, 2005, Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Gray (DPWG) by-election. The NDP won 14%, the Liberals, running a local environmentalist, won 16.7%, and Conservative leader John Tory won 56.3%.

The Green Party continues to steeply climb in popularity. In the October 2003 Ontario election, the GPO ran a virtual full slate of candidates (102 of 103 ridings) winning 2.7% of the vote across the province. In the June 2004 federal election, the GPC ran in all 106 Ontario ridings winning 4.5% of the vote. An Ipsos-Reid poll put the GPO at 9% across Ontario. So in the course of just 18 months, the Party’s support has more than tripled in Ontario!

De Jong’s incredible showing in DPWG was all the sweeter given that the Liberal Party chose to run a local environmentalist, Bob Duncanson. Clearly the Liberals are worried by the rise of the Green Party. The Liberal vote collapsed in the Ontario provincial elections from 28.8% in October 2003 to 16.% last March. And the Liberals poured a huge amount of resources into this by-election. The Premier, and countless Liberal cabinet members, helped campaigned in the riding, and spending by the Liberals not doubt hit the maximum.

The NDP was terrified of the Green Party in this by-election because in this riding's last two elections the Green Party has placed ahead of the NDP. This time the NDP spend huge amounts of money, bussed volunteers in to campaign and just managed to move up to third place.

Despite the concerted efforts by the Liberals and NDP, the Green Party’s vote still went up!

“We won by stealth�, said Richard Procter, a Green Party member and former candidate for the riding, “because at all candidates debates the other parties were presenting Green Party ideas�.

The campaign ran on a slogan of “a breath of fresh air� and had numerous amazing sound bites, including:

* “Stop talking about family values and start valuing families!�
* “It took us 20 years to become an overnight success.�
* “We’re not into finger pointing and laying blame.�
* “Instead of getting people to the office, let’s get the office to the people.�
* “Don’t panic, go organic!�
* “No farmer wants to make a living by walking to the mailbox to pick up a cheque.�


The strong showing of the Green Party is built on a long record of fantastic candidates and results in the area:

* In the 2004 federal election, Ted Alexander won almost 4 000 votes (8.8%) in the neighbouring riding of Dufferin Caledon—the highest in Ontario—beating the NDP;
* In the provincial election on October 2, 2003 Frank de Jong running in DPWG won 6.13 per cent of the vote beating the NDP’s 6.1;
* In the 2002 by-election Richard Procter running for the Green Party won 6.2 per cent of the vote in DPWG;
* Rob Strang ran in the riding as the first Green Party candidate and in November 2003 was elected as a municipal councillor for the Town of Orangeville.



I think you meant to say, the PC party has taken pro-traditional marriage stance. They also figured out the existing health care system is unsustainable and looking for ways to reduce cost.

On the other hand, Liberals want to fix health care by introducing Health Care Premium (tax)...

I think you meant to say "I think you meant to say the Conservative Party. . . "

The PCs dropped the progressive from their name and with cause. I invite all the red tories to read the (extensive) Green Party platform. You might like the mix of social responsibility, and efficient budgeting.
http://www.greenparty.ca/platform2004/en/policies.php

[Prometheus]

The PCs dropped the progressive from their name

You're right. Thanks for pointing that out. Better update my earlier message.

[Prometheus]

Because the other parties will probably f*** up things even more?

So how many billions of Liberal wasted tax dollars need to be exposed before you think of electing another party?

You know it's YOUR money that's being wasted (fine dined) away...

I noticed you used "probably". You don't sound very confident.

[spidermoore]

"The same could be said of the people linked to the sponsership scandal, all, or nearly all are no longer members."

I suppose you are one of the people that believes that Paul Martin had no idea that any of this was going on even though he was FINANCE MINISTER. What about the Billions in HRDC? What about the Billions in the gun registry? Do you really believe that he (or any other current Liberal MP) didn't know what was going on?

[luthair]

I think you meant to say, the Conservative party has taken pro-traditional marriage stance..

If you want to play that game what you meant to say was the conservative party has taken a stance against equal rights.


On the other hand, Liberals want to fix health care by introducing Health Care Premium (tax)... They also figured out the existing health care system is unsustainable and looking for ways to reduce cost

First, you've confused the federal and provincial governments, second adding privatized services will have a negative effect on public services:

-rich are given faster (and potentially better) service when compared to the rest of us.
-when something goes badly for a patient in privatized care, they often end up in public care, this delays the service of everyone else.
-there is a shortage of doctors/nurses/etc. privatized services would exacerbate the problem offering more lucrative positions and depriving the public sector . This increases delays for normal people and potentially lessens the quality of care. (Better qualified medical staff leave public care and public sector workload is increased w/ shortages)

Also, if physicians can make more in the private sector, why would they work in the public sector?


"The same could be said of the people linked to the sponsership scandal, all, or nearly all are no longer members."

I suppose you are one of the people that believes that Paul Martin had no idea that any of this was going on even though he was FINANCE MINISTER. What about the Billions in HRDC? What about the Billions in the gun registry? Do you really believe that he (or any other current Liberal MP) didn't know what was going on?

Finance Ministers allot overall finances, they aren't involved in individual cases (ie, we paid person-A $X, did we get something?), they budget $Z for a project (ie, sponsorships) and the person in charge of the project handles cases. Your accusations against him are baseless and he was praised by the financial sector for his fiscal policy.

[ephemera]

The Liberals are Finished. You can cry all you want, Harper is the next PM like it or not.

[luthair]

The Liberals are Finished. You can cry all you want, Harper is the next PM like it or not.

Which is why the liberals are gaining in the polls?

[asim99]

The Liberals are Finished. You can cry all you want, Harper is the next PM like it or not.

actually it might be fun to see pretty boy harper as prime minister, but i don't think he's quite ready for his prime time yet

[spidermoore]

"-rich are given faster (and potentially better) service when compared to the rest of us."

Myth. There is no reason why privatized services would automatically mean what you suggest. When most Canadian politicians talk about privatized healthcare it simply means allowing a private business to compete in the industry. There is nothing in the Canada Health Act that prohibits this. As long at the service is taxpayer funded a little bit of competition is quite healthy when compared to a bureaucratic monopoly. This would not mean que jumping. It would not mean better service for rich. The government still decides WHO gets service and in what order because they pay the bill. The government gets tax revenue from those private businesses as well as from the income of the employees.

"-when something goes badly for a patient in privatized care, they often end up in public care, this delays the service of everyone else."

In the privatized DELIVERY of service (NOT PRIVATELY FUNDED), this is not an issue at all because the government still makes all the decisions about who gets treated and when. Again, this does not violate the Canada Health Act in ANY manner.

"-there is a shortage of doctors/nurses/etc. privatized services would exacerbate the problem offering more lucrative positions and depriving the public sector . This increases delays for normal people and potentially lessens the quality of care. (Better qualified medical staff leave public care and public sector workload is increased w/ shortages)"

There would be less of a shortage if doctors and nurses were allowed to try and make a profit. There would be REAL incentives on running a tight ship to create those profits and if they fail, they go under, the tax payer isn't on the hook for it. Currently hospitals are an endless pit which our tax dollars are continually thrown into. I my province $0.43 of every tax dollar collected goes to healthcare. That is a ludicrous figure.

[spidermoore]

If you think I am ********ting then just take a look at some European countries that have a good combination of private and public healthcare.

Don't always just leap to the scaremongering of the "Americanized" healthcare.

Private/Public healthcare can work and at %40 of tax dollars going to healthcare currently with no end in sight, something has to be done before the baby boomers get too old.

[neilson]

Dang, why must you guys make it so hard for me to stick to my promise of being toned-down? So much stuff to put an opinion on, and yet I have chosen to say nothing.

gurr......

[webdoctors]

green party, cause i need a breath of fresh air... :)

[Roninvancouver]

Because the other parties will probably f*** up things even more? As they say, the devil you know..


what ever happened to the "hopeful d-jedi"...the guy who would never pull the plug...the guy who would keep holding out for something better...now when it comes to politics/government...something that ACTUALLY makes a difference in your lives...you come up with this nihilistic equation of "you can't beat them..so join them"...

that's it?

that's the entire total of your fight?

jedi, i really thought (despite our huge differences in opinions) you would not be one to lay down and let the bastards rob you. where is your spine?

your level of real-politik is surprisingly apparatchik-like.

[webdoctors]

this is really sad, whats different from this and robbing a bank? these ppl weren't poor, they are rich fat businessmen taking millions of dollars and stealing it and using their clout as government officials to do it. I would think 100 years ago someone who did such a thing would be convicted of treason and sentenced to death :evil: these ppl have no concience what so ever.

Unless the liberals make serious amends, but first returning the money and second by charging the ones within their party ranks with fraud, they should have no chance of winning the next 100 elections :evil:

[d_jedi]

So how many billions of Liberal wasted tax dollars need to be exposed before you think of electing another party?

You know it's YOUR money that's being wasted (fine dined) away...

I noticed you used "probably". You don't sound very confident.

I have never voted for the Liberal party. As I said in an earlier post, there isn't a party that supports my pro-traditional marriage, pro-environmental views.

[d_jedi]

Which is why the liberals are gaining in the polls?
Uhm.. no. Conservatives are at 36%.. Liberals are in the low 20's.

[mlc2000]

green party, cause i need a breath of fresh air... :)
Maybe you can't remember the breath of fresh air we got here in Ontario when Bob Rae and his smoke and mirrors sideshow called the NDP, were elected in Ontario. That was one frightening experience I choose to forget.

There's 2 choices in Ontario politics. Liberal or Conservative.
In federal politics, there's Liberal and the Reformatives.

[mlc2000]

They're not nearly as fringe as they used to be. In a provincial byelection, they got 10%, versus the liberals at 16.7%.


Of course, if you're a green party supporter, thats the thought process.

But if you're a liberal supporter, you're going to say:

Oh my God! We did just about as *****ty as the Green party!

[mlc2000]

Western canada is leaning towards Conservatives. :o
This scandal isn't a huge deal here imo. Harper is trying to win over Ontario, not the western provinces.


Lets be clear. These are not Conservatives.

They are Reformatives.

95% Reform + 5% PC's does not equal 100% Conservatives