RFD Mahjong anyone?

[MilkyWind]

I have playing mahjong for years. I know how much different plays are worth (For example, your right shape is 1 fan, your right shape is 1 fan).

Usually, when I play on internet or with friends, we play 3 fan hey wu (3 fan before we can eat)

The problem is, I don't know how to count points/chips for money.

For example, if we are playing 25 cents for 1 fan-

and I win a hand that has 5 fan, how many chips do I win (32 chips? 64?) And how much does each chip equal to in terms of money?

I remember seeing a chart somewhere for this, can anyone help me out?

We always play the person who throws out the tile is the one who will pay for everyone that hand.

[north77]

bump up for MJM (mahjongmaniac).
He certainly should be able to help you out!?!

[tinlunlau]

i have a full chart of counting mahjong money but it's only valid for Taiwanese style Mahjong. all these calculations confuse me so much, i don't even bother to play mahjong. only thing i can do is, Dai Say Hei (Fourth Happiness). i pull it off all the frickin' time.

[MilkyWind]

aghhhh I need the cantonese points/score calculations lol

Oh and are these "ways" of winning real? I have heard of "tian wu", "dey wu", and sup sum yu, but not the rest. Are they true ways of winning in mahjong or just made up?


http://www.zein.se/patrick/graph/mahjonggen.gif

For the special hands on this site, you have to scroll to the middle of the page to the special hands section:

http://www.mastersgames.com/rules/mah-jong-rules.htm

[felixdd]

aghhhh I need the cantonese points/score calculations lol

Oh and are these "ways" of winning real? I have heard of "tian wu", "dey wu", and sup sum yu, but not the rest. Are they true ways of winning in mahjong or just made up?


http://www.zein.se/patrick/graph/mahjonggen.gif

http://www.mastersgames.com/rules/mah-jong-rules.htm

Never heard of "hidden treasure". Then again, a lot of those so-called "hands" are actually different scenarios of getting another hand (i.e. "miracle of the sky"). I don't think you get extra points for those.

Never heard of heads and tails, though. Nor have I heard of the stuff about dragons and such.

For the special hands on this site, you have to scroll to the middle of the page to the special hands section:

[MilkyWind]

wahh where's MJmaniac when you need him heh

[felix]

I think he's too busy in the Hot Deals forum to visit Off Topic. :cheesygri

[itsmypostoffice]

it's been awhile since i posted here so please bear with me...

mahjong, like chinese characters, has standard rule & etiquette as well as regional rules. outside asia there are 2 popular varieties, HK style (13 tiles) and New Taiwan Style (aka 16 tiles). online games offer variants of these two styles but they're essentially identical to these 2 mentioned... almost every game is played with 13 tiles or 16 tiles with few exceptions.

since scoring differs between who you're playing against it's important to sort out fan values before placing a monetary value on each chip. for example, are you playing "winner wins all" or can you "cash out" like poker? in HK you can play single hands at MJ parlours while playing in Shanghai means you have to complete a full wind for a pot. once your group decides on a scheme, stick with it long enough so everyone at the table understands how money is distributed (there's nothing worse than a player who feels cheated).

HK Style: not every hand is covered 1 Point = 1 Chip

000 Points: 0-2 fan = are usually not allowed
016 Points: 3 fan = sets, combination of 1 fans
032 Points: 4 fan = semi-pure hands, 7 pairs (sometimes worth 8 fan)
048 Points: 5 fan = small "big three"
064 Points: 6 fan = combination of semi-pure w/ flowers & wind sets
096 Points: 7 fan = pure suit (containing series + sets)
128 Points: 8 fan = pure suit series or sets, big three, four winds, 16 buddha, 13 wonders, heaven's gift, earth's blessings, 8 flowers, etc...
??? Points: 9+ fan = usually determined by advanced players

001 Points: 1 fan = self-pick, series, winds for your seating position, wind round, kai gangs, stealing gang, 1 or 9 sets only, etc...

* player throwing the winning tile pays DOUBLE
* player throwing winning pure suit tile after 9 tiles showing pays for everyone
* self-pick wins points from everyone
* to simplify -- you can charge $0.05/Point OR everyone starts with 800 Points (worth $24/player, winner takes $96 Pot).

New Taiwan Style: not every hand is covered here you must pay a 4 chip ante on top of that hand's value

001 Points: 1 fan = read list at bottom
002 Points: 2 fan = series, covered gang
003 Points: 3 fan = no flowers+no winds/honours, self-pick w/ closed hand
005 Points: 5 fan = dragon's tail (1-9 same suit), 2 sets+1 pair of winds, 3 inside sets, 1 fan is 5 fan*
010 Points: 10 fan = all sets, semi-pure suits, 3 sets of winds, 4 inside sets, series+no flowers+no honours, small "big three"
020 Points: 20 fan = nigu (8 pairs closed hand), sets + semi-pure, 5 inside sets, 4 sets of winds(?)
030 Points: 30 fan = pure suit (containing series+sets), big three, 8 winds, heaven's gift, earth's blessings, ???
??? Points: 40+ fan = combination of 10 + 20 + 30... stackable.

001 Point: 1 fan = no winds, no flowers, 1 set winds, 1 flower, self-pick, gang, sealing gang, closed hand, winning from dealer, winning as dealer, etc...

*1 fan is 5 fan* is a special hand going back to original style. if your hand counts 1 fan you can collect it as 5 fan (this is actually a rare hand considering all the bonuses available).

keep deal bonus = 2n+1. this means every successful keep deal gives you guaranteed bonus fan where n = number of consecutive winning hands in the dealer position. you must also pay this "penalty" if you lose. ie. win 1 extra hand means 3 bonus fan, win 7 consecutive hand means 15 bonus fan added to your hand's value. for this reason i would advise against playing $0.05/point -- 16 tile games really add up!

there are many varieties/variations but you can always request using standardized rules. this mean no matter where you play, be it in singapore or india, your group can always refer to original rules/point system --> this will provide a basic framework as you progress and account for regional nuances. this list must seem confusing to novices so i'm happy to answer any questions you may have. i meet regularly with MJ teams comprising of university students to professionals. we don't usually play for money, usually the loser pays for dim sum the next morning. good luck to all RFD players.

[note: for advanced players i can simplify values using romanized mandarin chinese]

[mahjongmaniac]

I think he's too busy in the Hot Deals forum to visit Off Topic. :cheesygri

that's right! :D :razz: :cheesygri

-------------------------------------------


it's been awhile since i posted here so please bear with me...

mahjong, like chinese characters, has standard rule & etiquette as well as regional rules. outside asia there are 2 popular varieties, HK style (13 tiles) and New Taiwan Style (aka 16 tiles). online games offer variants of these two styles but they're essentially identical to these 2 mentioned... almost every game is played with 13 tiles or 16 tiles with few exceptions.

since scoring differs between who you're playing against it's important to sort out fan values before placing a monetary value on each chip. for example, are you playing "winner wins all" or can you "cash out" like poker? in HK you can play single hands at MJ parlours while playing in Shanghai means you have to complete a full wind for a pot. once your group decides on a scheme, stick with it long enough so everyone at the table understands how money is distributed (there's nothing worse than a player who feels cheated).

HK Style: not every hand is covered 1 Point = 1 Chip

000 Points: 0-2 fan = are usually not allowed
016 Points: 3 fan = sets, combination of 1 fans
032 Points: 4 fan = semi-pure hands, 7 pairs (sometimes worth 8 fan)
048 Points: 5 fan = small "big three"
064 Points: 6 fan = combination of semi-pure w/ flowers & wind sets
096 Points: 7 fan = pure suit (containing series + sets)
128 Points: 8 fan = pure suit series or sets, big three, four winds, 16 buddha, 13 wonders, heaven's gift, earth's blessings, 8 flowers, etc...
??? Points: 9+ fan = usually determined by advanced players

001 Points: 1 fan = self-pick, series, winds for your seating position, wind round, kai gangs, stealing gang, 1 or 9 sets only, etc...

* player throwing the winning tile pays DOUBLE
* player throwing winning pure suit tile after 9 tiles showing pays for everyone
* self-pick wins points from everyone
* to simplify -- you can charge $0.05/Point OR everyone starts with 800 Points (worth $24/player, winner takes $96 Pot).

New Taiwan Style: not every hand is covered here you must pay a 4 chip ante on top of that hand's value

001 Points: 1 fan = read list at bottom
002 Points: 2 fan = series, covered gang
003 Points: 3 fan = no flowers+no winds/honours, self-pick w/ closed hand
005 Points: 5 fan = dragon's tail (1-9 same suit), 2 sets+1 pair of winds, 3 inside sets, 1 fan is 5 fan*
010 Points: 10 fan = all sets, semi-pure suits, 3 sets of winds, 4 inside sets, series+no flowers+no honours, small "big three"
020 Points: 20 fan = nigu (8 pairs closed hand), sets + semi-pure, 5 inside sets, 4 sets of winds(?)
030 Points: 30 fan = pure suit (containing series+sets), big three, 8 winds, heaven's gift, earth's blessings, ???
??? Points: 40+ fan = combination of 10 + 20 + 30... stackable.

001 Point: 1 fan = no winds, no flowers, 1 set winds, 1 flower, self-pick, gang, sealing gang, closed hand, winning from dealer, winning as dealer, etc...

*1 fan is 5 fan* is a special hand going back to original style. if your hand counts 1 fan you can collect it as 5 fan (this is actually a rare hand considering all the bonuses available).

keep deal bonus = 2n+1. this means every successful keep deal gives you guaranteed bonus fan where n = number of consecutive winning hands in the dealer position. you must also pay this "penalty" if you lose. ie. win 1 extra hand means 3 bonus fan, win 7 consecutive hand means 15 bonus fan added to your hand's value. for this reason i would advise against playing $0.05/point -- 16 tile games really add up!

there are many varieties/variations but you can always request using standardized rules. this mean no matter where you play, be it in singapore or india, your group can always refer to original rules/point system --> this will provide a basic framework as you progress and account for regional nuances. this list must seem confusing to novices so i'm happy to answer any questions you may have. i meet regularly with MJ teams comprising of university students to professionals. we don't usually play for money, usually the loser pays for dim sum the next morning. good luck to all RFD players.

[note: for advanced players i can simplify values using romanized mandarin chinese]

^ looks like we got an MJ expert here that already answered all ur questions OP... :lol:

---------------------------------

btw, i *rarely* ever gamble playing MJ ..... i play it for fun!

so asking me how u calc points for money is kinda pointless. ... (sorry ;) )

i do sort of know how to count points tho.

btw, here's the website that i sometimes refer to when i play MJ the taiwanese way:

http://www.alchemy.com/~steve/mahjong/

hope u enjoy/find it useful :)

i had a website somewhere for playing the HK way, but i can't find it at the moment... (4got)


have fun! :razz:

[sumrandomguy]

^ there he is.
haha

[MilkyWind]

oooo thanks itsmypostoffice and MJManiac! I'm going to print that HK point system for reference. I remember it was something like that, 3 fan = 16 chips, winner pays double, etc, but usually we have an adult playing with us and they usually calculate how much chips we win/loose (We never bother remembering how to count the chips)

We never play for money here either, just for fun! I'm undefeated so far muhahahaha

Wouldn't it be fun to watch MJManiac and itsmypostoffice have an all out MJ battle? We can use yahoo MJ =), sort of like the RFD poker thing they are holding, we can have an RFD MJ thing. Just need to set a date and time heh

[cng]

I will play big two!

[itsmypostoffice]

it's important to remember it's not gambling. asian families, particularly south asians, look down upon gambling addiction so a classic HK saying rings true: "you're paying tuition" -- meaning money lost to your elders is treated as paying for lessons.

another truism is: "MJ reveals a person's true character" -- this means all your faults & good qualities are brought out during stressful situations; are you polite or disrespectful? do you praise or hold grudges? MJ has survived turmoil, revolutions, banning, provincial dialects and even carried half-way across the globe. it's because our forefathers treat MJ as more than a game. it requires cunning, strategic planning, luck and a good sense of humour when you lose. i find my best matches are against those with a background in programming or ranked chess players. even rummy players are a handful!

two other reasons why "money" is exchanged during games: 1 - it's an incentive for you to improve...and quickly. 2 - it's one of the few ways you can hand over spending money to your grandma -- particularly if she's stubborn and won't accept grocery money from you. i mentioned this earlier, MJ remains one of the few pastimes we can participate with our parents. what are we going to discuss during dim sum? initial d?

EDIT: in HK 13 tiles you draw all the tiles from the walls. in New Taiwan 16 tiles you leave 16 tiles remaining -- if you're the last player you can also decline to pick up the 17th tile and call it a draw. this counts as a "keep deal" situation and bonus fans apply.

[MilkyWind]

it's important to remember it's not gambling. asian families, particularly south asians, look down upon gambling addiction so a classic HK saying rings true: "you're paying tuition" -- meaning money lost to your elders is treated as paying for lessons.

another truism is: "MJ reveals a person's true character" -- this means all your faults & good qualities are brought out during stressful situations; are you polite or disrespectful? do you praise or hold grudges? MJ has survived turmoil, revolutions, banning, provincial dialects and even carried half-way across the globe. it's because our forefathers treat MJ as more than a game. it requires cunning, strategic planning, luck and a good sense of humour when you lose. i find my best matches are against those with a background in programming or ranked chess players. even rummy players are a handful!

two other reasons why "money" is exchanged during games: 1 - it's an incentive for you to improve...and quickly. 2 - it's one of the few ways you can hand over spending money to your grandma -- particularly if she's stubborn and won't accept grocery money from you. i mentioned this earlier, MJ remains one of the few pastimes we can participate with our parents. what are we going to discuss during dim sum? initial d?

EDIT: in HK 13 tiles you draw all the tiles from the walls. in New Taiwan 16 tiles you leave 16 tiles remaining -- if you're the last player you can also decline to pick up the 17th tile and call it a draw. this counts as a "keep deal" situation and bonus fans apply.


Hmm when we play 13 tiles here, we usually don't play until we draw all tiles from the walls. We play until 16 are remaining. Same on yahoo. It's a 13 tile game and they only play until there is 16 remaning.

[mahjongmaniac]

Wouldn't it be fun to watch MJManiac and itsmypostoffice have an all out MJ battle? We can use yahoo MJ =), sort of like the RFD poker thing they are holding, we can have an RFD MJ thing. Just need to set a date and time heh

lol... all-out MJ battle... that'd sure be fun! :razz:

don't 4get the DD! (oddly enuff he knows how to play too... lol )

[Montague]

Wouldn't it be fun to watch MJManiac and itsmypostoffice have an all out MJ battle? We can use yahoo MJ =), sort of like the RFD poker thing they are holding, we can have an RFD MJ thing. Just need to set a date and time heh
My money would be on "MJM".

With a username like that he HAS to be good! :lol:

[MilkyWind]

Why don't we set a date? I don't mind playing a game as well. I used to rank 9th on yahoo MJ when they had ladder 7 years ago.

Are you guys familiar with yahoo MJ?

Or is there another online MJ that has a nicer interface than yahoo?

Anyone free on sunday for a game? Rules would be 3fan and up, or we can play 5fan if anyone is up for it. We are not playing for $$$ though lol You guys would loose too much to me :)

[MilkyWind]

ok, now that we have a point system chart, I have another question. The topic is Special Hands.

If we win a special hand like Sup Sum Yiu or Tian Wu, how much fan are those worth?

You must have heard of Dai sey hey (Triplet/quadriplet of all winds), but is there such thing as a siu sey hey?

And if we get 7 pairs, do we get a win? Or is that just a home rule for HK MJ?

I am also very unclear about the special hand called "Buried Treasure". Is it "Concealed Pungs in one suit with Winds/Dragons and a pair." or just win with "Concealed Pungs in one suit with any pair"? Cause they both say different things on the 2 sites I posted.

Or is there no such special hand called "buried treasure"?

Also I learned that if you with everything concealed (You self picked everything), that counts as 1 fan. Is that right?

Also wondering if you have Twins (identical chow), is that + 1 fan? Or worth 1 fan?

[thelefteyeguy]

ok, now that we have a point system chart, I have another question. The topic is Special Hands.

If we win a special hand like Sup Sum Yiu or Tian Wu, how much fan are those worth?

You must have heard of Dai sey hey (Triplet/quadriplet of all winds), but is there such thing as a siu sey hey?

And if we get 7 pairs, do we get a win? Or is that just a home rule for HK MJ?

I am also very unclear about the special hand called "Buried Treasure". Is it "Concealed Pungs in one suit with Winds/Dragons and a pair." or just win with "Concealed Pungs in one suit with any pair"? Cause they both say different things on the 2 sites I posted.

Or is there no such special hand called "buried treasure"?

Also I learned that if you with everything concealed (You self picked everything), that counts as 1 fan. Is that right?

Also wondering if you have Twins (identical chow), is that + 1 fan? Or worth 1 fan?

some of your questions are house rules:

7 pairs...i don't really know anyone that plays that anymore...but i could be wrong...

Sup Sum Yiu is maximum 9/10? (but I usually play 6 max so no one really plays it)..

siu sey hey is 2(pong/conceal dragons )and 1(pair of the other dragon)...it's 3 fan (2 for the dragons plus bonus for the pair...eyes)

"Also wondering if you have Twins (identical chow), is that + 1 fan? Or worth 1 fan?" house rule? never heard of it.

"Also I learned that if you with everything concealed (You self picked everything), that counts as 1 fan. Is that right" never hear of it...if you have everything concealed...it's 1 fan already...self pick it's another 1 fan. So altogether it's 2 and not 3 (1 bonus). But it could be self rule...however concealed and self pick happens alot...dont see why there should be another bonus

[itsmypostoffice]

hmm...lot's of stuff to sort through and you guys are using cantonese romanization here. i can't be correct on everything so this is a "learning" thread for all of us.

1) 7 Pairs: this is not an obscure hand but it's rarely played outside the home nowadays. i don't understand the reasoning but i believe it's due to some players wanting it to count for 4 fan while others want it counted as a special hand, ie. maximum hand. 7 Pairs is fun to pursue so if there are novices at the table everyone can agree to add this before the match begins.

2) 13 wonders is a maximum hand. 13 different tiles with the last tile finishing a pair can be quite difficult when all the honours are burned. it's also a frustrating hand because if your opponent is building a pure suit you'll discard any tile not 1 or 9 and this will cause you to lose. this hand requires more luck than skill.

3) small "Big Three" is 2 Dragon Sets with 1 Pair of the remaining dragon. dragons are Fa Cai, Hong Zhong, Bai Ban. HK players usually rank this 5 fan but it may vary -- Taiwan players rank this 10 fan. Da San Yuan is 3 Dragon Sets: HK is Max Value, Taiwan is 30 fan. special hands values must be agreed upon prior to the first dice throw otherwise, you shouldn't allow special hands in your game.

4) Yi Mo San = Closed Hand + Self-Pick (translation: 1 pick complete 3 tasks). 1 fan for Closed Hand, 1 fan for Self-pick, 1 fan for accomplishing the task. this was noted in my original post but not discussed in detail.

--> you will always notice variations in the rules since many of the online players are quite young and each hand's origins have never been explored in depth. asian MJ sites, on the other hand, are quite strict and operate just like online poker. yahoo hasn't adjusted its rules since MJ's introduction but it's a whole different barrel of fish on professional sites.

--> asia site are based mainly in macao. i advise a.g.a.i.n.s.t visiting. for fun i use to visit 4 hobby sites: 2 were java based and allowed players to adjust rules and i have not visited the other two in a very long time. this is because i didn't had regular internet access for over a year so i'm not on top of current developments. i do know 9 dragons software is planning new features and so is the MJ federation. i'll keep you updated.

in terms of practising, you can purchase a 16 tile cd-rom game at pacific mall. although the AI isn't very strong, there's a new edition each year and many vendors carry the $15 disc. it's called: 3-in-1 2003, or 2004; featuring HK & Twn movies stars and you can select between 13 & 16 tile games. if i can dig up an old version i can send it to you. truthfully, the best practise is playing regularly with people. just like poker & euchre you have to practise reading your opponents' "tells" & "bluffs". furthermore, you can't memorize every hand value unless you go through the motion of paying out chips. counting chips reinforces new skills you pick up and nothing honestly feels better than counting chips you've earned. you N.E.V.E.R have to play for money, but just counting out chips will help you design strategies & pace to gain hands in your favour. nobody, and i mean nobody can play a 12hr game perfectly.

[trader08]

You must have heard of Dai sey hey (Triplet/quadriplet of all winds), but is there such thing as a siu sey hey?



I thought Dai Sey Hey means you have to pong all 4 winds and Siu Sey Hey means you pong 3 winds and the fourth wind as eyes. No?

[MilkyWind]

When you say maximum fan/points if you win a special hand, how much fan/points exactly or is that determined by the players before the game?

[itsmypostoffice]

When you say maximum fan/points if you win a special hand, how much fan/points exactly or is that determined by the players before the game?

common games reach 8 fan while advanced players bump it to 12 fan. the maximum is agreed upon beforehand and hands are adjusted accordingly. ie. semi-pure sets become 6 fan instead of 4 and special hands are treated the same value as pure suits. some 'ol school player bonus a few higher than max. for example, there's heaven's gate & red/green/white dragons --> according to the standard scoring table these special hands can't add up to max but because nobody ever plays these hands, they rewarded your attempt to build them by valuing them at 12 fan.

this is why players need to memorize the rudimentary scoring table so they can adjust & add more hands according to who they're playing against.

[tonychau]

BTW, if you guys from Toronto, you might want to visit the Video Arcade at Commerical Gate of Hwy 7 and Leslie across Time Square. There is a MJ Arcade machine allows a network of 8 people to play. It used Player card to store your level status, score and rank from each time you play (very similar to Initial D Arcade). However though it is Japanese MJ style.

I'm currently at level 6.

Sega Japan (http://www.sega-mj.com/mj1/contents/game/index.html)

http://www.sega-mj.com/mj1/img/game/about/01.jpg http://www.sega-mj.com/mj1/img/game/about/02.jpg

http://www.sega-mj.com/mj1/img/game/about/03.jpg http://www.sega-mj.com/mj1/img/game/about/05.jpg

http://www.sega-mj.com/mj1/img/game/about/07.jpg http://www.sega-mj.com/mj1/img/game/card.jpg

Tony

[itsmypostoffice]

However though it is Japanese MJ style.

I'm currently at level 6

nice! i find JP MJ too short for tournaments but i'll try out commerce gate. thanks for the tip :)

[thelefteyeguy]

woh...didnt know that...need to check it out!

[saw_mui]

the way we play it is the amout of fan u get is the power of the two

eg..3 fan = 2^3 = 8

[MilkyWind]

BTW, if you guys from Toronto, you might want to visit the Video Arcade at Commerical Gate of Hwy 7 and Leslie across Time Square. There is a MJ Arcade machine allows a network of 8 people to play. It used Player card to store your level status, score and rank from each time you play (very similar to Initial D Arcade). However though it is Japanese MJ style.

I'm currently at level 6.

Tony

lol video MJ is nothing like the real MJ!!

[MilkyWind]

Also I am wondering if this special hand/rule is true or is it a house rule?

Plucking the Moon from the Bottom of the Sea- The Moon is the One of Circles. This is made by a player who upon drawing the last tile from the wall finds that it is the Moon which allows the player to go Mah Jong.

Gathering the Plum Blossom from the Roof-The Plum Blossom is the Five of Circles. This is made by a player who draws a loose tile (the roof) as a replacement for a Kong, a Flower or a Season and that tile is the Plum Blossom which allows the player to go Mah Jong.

And does anyone know what it is called in chinese? Thanks

[akito925]

I wanna so learn how to play.. looks so much fun to play..

I have a few movies that have it on.. like
kung fu mahjong! lol.

or fai choi sprit starring andy lau. that one was pretty cool too.

[itsmypostoffice]

And does anyone know what it is called in chinese? Thanks

i don't know the names of these hands. many hands on yahoo & US based games are a mish-mash of regional rules and are sometimes mixed with south-eastern rules from shanghai. this is partly due to the fact that programmers weren't players and relied on rules their parents/grandparents taught them. often, it wasn't always correct. another pitfall occurs when when players refer to american rules used in the '30s and those are influenced by shanghai style. it's very difficult to trace its origins without all the details but here's what i tell you:

1) i don't recall bonus fan on winning on the last tile in HK, but there is a 1 fan bonus in Taiwan style.

2) if you're replacing a tile during gang & finish your hand, it's called "gang sun hwa, zhi mo" (trans: four of a kind, self-pick finish). you receive 1 or 2 fan for the gang depending if it's a covered or open gang, you receive 1 fan for self-pick, and 1 bonus fan for both actions (similar to yi mo san: closed hand self-pick). "gang sun hwa" only applies for gang and does not apply if you're replacing flower tiles.