Rally Cars

[Mr.Universe]

I'm a big F1 fan but I catch a bit of rally racing here and there, what I don't understand is why are 90% of the cars FWD compact based cars? It is due to FIA regulations, traction issues, or compacts being lighter in weight and shorter in length to fit in those tight roads? Do FWD compacts really have an advantage over say mid size AWD/RWD? Yes, I know there's the odd Evo and Wrx but they don't seem to be winning, at least the times I've watched. Someone explain this to me, thnx.

[djpharoah]

FWD have better handling that RWD cars. Remember those cars are putting about ~400bhp to the wheels. However the main reason that a lot of cars in WRC are FWD is due to the fact that FIA dictates that production models are to be used. That means u cannot take a FWD car and replace its drivetrain, making it AWD. If it is sold as FWD, then it competes as FWD.

My favorite is Peugot 206. That car looks so sweet.

[Ride-On]

Presumably you are talking about catching coverage of a domestic rally, such as the Rally of the Tall Pines, Baie de Chaleur or any of the western Canadian rallies? The top level cars in the Canadian rally championship are 4WD modified rally cars, such as Subie WRX, Mitsu EVO, the Sprongl's old Audi (retired the car now though), etc. However, the cars are separated into classes (i.e. categories). The categories range from Open (not quite anything goes, but almost -- generally 4WD with modified engine, suspension, etc.) all the way down through production classes that are essentially, grab a cheap car, pop in a roll cage and way you go...

Why so many 2WD cars? $$$$ There's not a lot of sponsorship in domestic racing, so it's a case of buying a car, modifying it, buying tires, getting transportation to and from, etc... buying a cheap old 2WD car and racing in that category makes the sport more accessible and competitive.

Now... WRC... that is a whole different ballgame. 4WD Open cars -- they're not even stock frames or anything. The cars just have the skin of the production car. I'm sure there are some regulations about sharing some parts with the production model, but overall, they're purpose built race cars and all 4WD.

It is a WAY COOL sport to watch! I love the WRC coverage on Speed - enjoy it far more than any other type of racing.
Enjoy!

[Ride-On]

Sorry dude... there are NO 2WD cars in the WRC, front or rear wheel -- every WRC car is 4WD. Even in the Junior WRC series, its all 4WD. Citroen, Peugeut, Subie, Mitsu, Skoda, Ford -- all their WRC cars are 4WD.

2WD cats are generally only in domestic rallies, and these cars are in production based classes and modifications are limited... ergo, no 400hp cars in these classes.

Exceptions? There are high HP 2WD cars in adventure rallies such as the Paris-Dakar.


FWD have better handling that RWD cars. Remember those cars are putting about ~400bhp to the wheels. However the main reason that a lot of cars in WRC are FWD is due to the fact that FIA dictates that production models are to be used. That means u cannot take a FWD car and replace its drivetrain, making it AWD. If it is sold as FWD, then it competes as FWD.

My favorite is Peugot 206. That car looks so sweet.

[MameXP]

FWD have better handling that RWD cars. Remember those cars are putting about ~400bhp to the wheels. However the main reason that a lot of cars in WRC are FWD is due to the fact that FIA dictates that production models are to be used. That means u cannot take a FWD car and replace its drivetrain, making it AWD. If it is sold as FWD, then it competes as FWD.

My favorite is Peugot 206. That car looks so sweet.


Wow... you clearly have no idea. I feel sorry for you that has been misformed so much

[gh05t]

I miss WRC on Speed since i now have only basic cable(not paying for it or have control of it to upgrade so not complaining) :D .

The peugeots kick ass. They are smaller than WRX and evo and so fit well into the sharp corners which they take so well.

Yep did see some front wheel drive types in rallies but as Ride - On pointed out, these are the less prestigious and possibly local Canadian ones.

Did see a Hyundai Accent in a Rally but not sure if it was front wheel drive or modified to 4 wheel drive with other rally type modifications. It did perform well and took the jamming quite well though.

[Taiphun]

Aren't the Citroen Xsara and Suzuki Ignis S1600 both FWD?

[mudmojo]

Aren't the Citroen Xsara and Suzuki Ignis S1600 both FWD?

I believe all the Citroens and Peugeots in EDM form over the past few years, come only in FWD yes. Don't know about the Suzuki.


The WRC iterations are nothing like the production cars though.

Even the AWD street cars (ie. WRX, EVO) are nothing like the WRC cars styled to look like them.

[Mr.Universe]

FWD handles better then RWD...sure :lol:

Yes, I think it was the top pines rally. They (the host) were talking about the world championship being already decided but the north amerian one was still open; I had no idea and just assumed it was the WRC.

So, the WRC cars are basically econo car skins but totally different drivetrain, suspensions, etc...got it, thanks. Agree, it's an awesome motorsport but it's usually on at odd hours.

[fast_typeR]

the reason is because in rally terrain, you want more understeer than oversteer to control the car hence you use a FWD car. It's similar to snow driving, you want more understeer so you can control you car better.

[fast_typeR]

FWD handles better then RWD...sure :lol:

Yes, I think it was the top pines rally. They (the host) were talking about the world championship being already decided but the north amerian one was still open; I had no idea and just assumed it was the WRC.

So, the WRC cars are basically econo car skins but totally different drivetrain, suspensions, etc...got it, thanks. Agree, it's an awesome motorsport but it's usually on at odd hours.

are you calling a Subraru Impreza STi an econo car? Or countless Audis that are used as rally cars in the past?

[mudmojo]

the reason is because in rally terrain, you want more understeer than oversteer to control the car hence you use a FWD car. It's similar to snow driving, you want more understeer so you can control you car better.

Are you talking about "you" as in the OP of this thread?

I most certainly would NOT want an FWD car, even if you paid me... but well maybe if the price were right. ;)

The STi and Lancer are econo cars in my mind. What? No leather? :cheesygri


Gravel/dirt rally suspension is pretty soft. To that extent, there's more weight transfer ability fore and aft. If you have FF rallycar, it would not have at its disposal nearly the amount of traction an AWD car or even a RWD would have. Though overall in a rally, a FF would probably be a better choice than an FR.

Understeering is not a property unique to FF's; MR's, AWD's, FR's can all plow like pigs if not setup or engineered correctly.

[Mr.Universe]

are you calling a Subraru Impreza STi an econo car? Or countless Audis that are used as rally cars in the past?

Yes, it's an Impreza with a factory performance mods, the interior is the same as the 24k Impreza with minor cosmetic changes. Just because it cost $45+k doesn't not hide the fact that it originated as an econo box. If someone swapped a V8 into an Hyundai Accent and charged $40k for it, is it still not an econo box?

[MameXP]

Yes, it's an Impreza with a factory performance mods, the interior is the same as the 24k Impreza with minor cosmetic changes. Just because it cost $45+k doesn't not hide the fact that it originated as an econo box. If someone swapped a V8 into an Hyundai Accent and charged $40k for it, is it still not an econo box?


STi is Impreza with factory performance mods.... RIGHT!

lol search b4 you say such. They have diff engine, suspensions, pretty much everything except the body panels.

I dont know what to say but you clearly dont know anything about STi.

ps. somehow you related the term "economy box" to comestic looks of the car? You misunderstood econobox then lol

oh wait so EVO VIII is economy box then cause it looks like lancer!!! ROFLMA hahahhahaha

[Mr.Universe]

STi is Impreza with factory performance mods.... RIGHT!

lol search b4 you say such. They have diff engine, suspensions, pretty much everything except the body panels.

I dont know what to say but you clearly dont know anything about STi.

ps. somehow you related the term "economy box" to comestic looks of the car? You misunderstood econobox then lol

oh wait so EVO VIII is economy box then cause it looks like lancer!!! ROFLMA hahahhahaha

Yes, maybe I don't get the STi. Yes, I know it's about the driving experience, the handling, the power, etc, etc, etc. But at the end of the day, when you sit inside the car, it's has the same cheap interior as the regular Impreza - hard plastic, dated layout, faux aluminum trims. I like performance as much as the next guy but $45k for that interior, I just don't get it. For me cheap interior = econo regardless of performance.

[waitin4BOOST]

I would rather a set of Recaro's over leather any day!!!
On that note - I don't think people buy STi's for their interior

[Ride-On]

Sebastien Loeb dominated the WRC in his Citroen Xsara this year. Indeed, a 4WD rally car. If you get a chance to see helicopter footage of this guy's lines in the tarmac rallies -- man, you are in for a perfect learning experience! He is so smooth and always on the optimal lines. Definitely not a thrasher...

STI = Impreza. No two ways about it. The base of the car is Impreza -- i.e. the frame and body. Engine is same base, but modded (i.e. to my knowledge, it's the same block). Suspension is upgraded, brakes are (finally!) upgraded to Brembo (I believe), interior tweaks, etc. But, the frame is an Impreza frame.... not that this is bad - not saying that at all! Just saying it's not it's own car. For me, save the money, buy the Impreza 2.5RS. You'll save huge $$ that you can invest in susp. or engine upgrades. Just a thought.

[M-e-X-x]

For me, save the money, buy the Impreza 2.5RS. You'll save huge $$ that you can invest in susp. or engine upgrades. Just a thought.

totally.. but no more RS.. just i ;)

loving my 2.5i sport wagon.. and it's snowing... excuse me while i go.. :lol:

[Whitewind]

You can't really compare the market car to the WRC car, they are just too dissimilar. The engine, breakes, tires, chassis (including full cage), suspension, transmission...etc; its totally a different car, there really isn't anything in common.

I doesn't really matter if the STI is an econo box or not, what really matters is the price to performance ratio, unless u are buying for the name/badge.

[MameXP]

STI = Impreza. No two ways about it. The base of the car is Impreza -- i.e. the frame and body. Engine is same base, but modded (i.e. to my knowledge, it's the same block). Suspension is upgraded, brakes are (finally!) upgraded to Brembo (I believe), interior tweaks, etc. But, the frame is an Impreza frame.... not that this is bad - not saying that at all! Just saying it's not it's own car. For me, save the money, buy the Impreza 2.5RS. You'll save huge $$ that you can invest in susp. or engine upgrades. Just a thought.


Wrong! I have said it once andsaid it again. STi comes with diff engine, lots of ppl really dont know here and just throw out bs. They comes with same body and frame, thats it.

I just dont get it, if you really know then say it if not just search or ask if you want to know.

No, buying an Impreza then soup up engines and suspension its not the same buying an STI. You MAY soup the Impreza to performs the same as an STI but again thats not the point. The STi comes with totally different engine thus potential for modding is totally different. Putting the same mods to STi you will see it flys.

About interior talk, i dont get this. If you can think of interior is performance luxury then Ferrari is NOT for you. This is like those ricers talks. " Hell, i lost but my interior looks better with all screens and sounds system..!!! " Talk like that you will get laughed at.

Again Evo VIII and STi is no where ecobox. They built for peformance and purely performance. If you want looks, heck buy some ****** VW and you will have nice interior but dont bother talk performance to me.

[jollyeskimo]

Yes, maybe I don't get the STi. Yes, I know it's about the driving experience, the handling, the power, etc, etc, etc. But at the end of the day, when you sit inside the car, it's has the same cheap interior as the regular Impreza - hard plastic, dated layout, faux aluminum trims. I like performance as much as the next guy but $45k for that interior, I just don't get it. For me cheap interior = econo regardless of performance.

Carrera RS?

360 Modena CS?

GT3 Cup?

Those cars are hardly econo. And yet they come stock with stripped out interiors.

Guess why.

[MameXP]

Carrera RS?

360 Modena CS?

GT3 Cup?

Those cars are hardly econo. And yet they come stock with stripped out interiors.

Guess why.


I couldnt agree more. Most of these guys are thinking expensive cars should always come with luxury. Guess they have never seen the interior of those cars in person. I'm telling you a $40000 Lexus even have better interior.

Not to mention Ferrari doesnt even have AC, 6 Disc CD/DV changer stereo LOL?

One of my parents neighbour (right next to my parents house) has both 911 GT and F360. I even seat in the cars, to tell you the truth, the Ferrari has the worst interior!!!! :D. Too bad i cant drive them :p. The Ferrari sounds so distinct which makes tons of ppl look when it flys by

If anyone want to know what STi is capable of , stock or mods i suggest go to Road course or autoX event. The car is indeed the best for performance to price ratio

[Mr.Universe]

Again Evo VIII and STi is no where ecobox. They built for peformance and purely performance. If you want looks, heck buy some ****** VW and you will have nice interior but dont bother talk performance to me.

No need to get worked up ;) I didn't say the STi wasn't a performance machine but the fact is the STi would not exists without the econobox Impreza. A Ferrari would exists regardless of any other vehicle.

If you think $45k is good value for a high performance compact with basic refinements, good for you.

[MameXP]

No need to get worked up ;) I didn't say the STi wasn't a performance machine but the fact is the STi would not exists without the econobox Impreza. A Ferrari would exists regardless of any other vehicle.

If you think $45k is good value for a high performance compact with basic refinements, good for you.

Again, you have whole other definition of "compact". Sports, performance car does come with full size like an Impala you know. STi is BIG in its class ( sport and performance)

So i see your point of view now, you mean hey it looks just like the lower version Impreza that cost ~$25k so its still econobox.

Your definition of "econobox" is way off bro. A car that cost over $45k and suck gas like no tmr, not top notch reliable is NO WHERE near the term "econobox". Hello???? Economy means for something CHEAP, save on gas and more reliable (no stock turbo please lol), a bouncy comfort suspension setup with narrow tires.

Based on what you think, i can make a cheap **** cost ~$20k that JUST looks like a Ferrari (in fact there are quite a few in Europe, body exotic looks cars) but with a ****** 1.6l SOHC engine pulls 100HP weight 2500lbs. Would that make Ferrari an econobox now? Looks again you all about looks. I think its safe to say you have been RICED (WestCoast Custom for you :) )

[Mr.Universe]

Again, you have whole other definition of "compact". Sports, performance car does come with full size like an Impala you know. STi is BIG in its class ( sport and performance)

So i see your point of view now, you mean hey it looks just like the lower version Impreza that cost ~$25k so its still econobox.

Your definition of "econobox" is way off bro. A car that cost over $45k and suck gas like no tmr, not top notch reliable is NO WHERE near the term "econobox". Hello???? Economy means for something CHEAP, save on gas and more reliable (no stock turbo please lol), a bouncy comfort suspension setup with narrow tires.

Based on what you think, i can make a cheap **** cost ~$20k that JUST looks like a Ferrari (in fact there are quite a few in Europe, body exotic looks cars) but with a ****** 1.6l SOHC engine pulls 100HP weight 2500lbs. Would that make Ferrari an econobox now? Looks again you all about looks. I think its safe to say you have been RICED (WestCoast Custom for you :) )

Yes, I associate a cheap dated interior with an econo box :twisted:

Do you own a STi by the way?

[warpdrive]

Is the STi an econobox? No.

The extremely high price, poor gas mileage, high maintenance costs, high insurance, (not even mentioning the performance) make it anything but.

The STi is one of my favorite performance cars, and but if people don't like it because they think the interior is dated/cheap, that's fine with me...the car isn't meant for them anyway. It's their own loss that they can't appreciate what it brings to the table, and get hung up on the fact that some parts are shared with an entry level Impreza. I have no such hangups :)

[warpdrive]

Back to the original question.

Somebody posted this link in another thread and it's worth repeating
http://www.rallysport.on.ca/articles/Driving.html

Scroll down to the Section on Front Wheel Drive. Driving in rallies is quite different from racing on pavement, and in rallying, FWD is amazingly effective, it's definitely preferrable to RWD for loose surfaces.

[Ride-On]

Okay, so... I know there are a lot of improvements in the STi vs. WRX... but, perhaps you could educate me here... I'm not flaming, just asking... what's the difference between the Impreza 2.5 boxer and the STi 2.5 boxer? I'm suggesting, that the block is the same. Obviously, the turbo is a huge change (up to 14.5psi boost), exhaust and intake tweaked, silica filled exhaust valves, probably lighter pistons...

Hmm... so... how many parts have to be swapped for it to be called a new engine? :)

Just coincidence that they chose 2.5L?


Wrong! I have said it once andsaid it again. STi comes with diff engine, lots of ppl really dont know here and just throw out bs. They comes with same body and frame, thats it.

I just dont get it, if you really know then say it if not just search or ask if you want to know.

No, buying an Impreza then soup up engines and suspension its not the same buying an STI. You MAY soup the Impreza to performs the same as an STI but again thats not the point. The STi comes with totally different engine thus potential for modding is totally different. Putting the same mods to STi you will see it flys.

[ah_long]

WRX is 2.0

[warpdrive]

I'm suggesting, that the block is the same.

You are not mistaken....the block is the same for sure, but of course, the pistons/rods/exhaust valves are all upgraded, as well as the turbo charger/intercooler and active variable valve timing additions.

So to say it is different engine is not an exaggeration, but one would not be able to claim the two engines share no parts.

[warpdrive]

WRX is 2.0

Not anymore, NA WRX's are now 2.5T

[MameXP]

WRX is 2.0
There you go. :D :D

The new 2006 WRX has 2.5 BUT still NOT the same engine, different block, head, pistol... internal wise. But still more potential (force induction wise) than the older one due to bigger displacement

Note: Subaru is NOT NA modifed friendly so i'm prefering to FI

[MameXP]

Its still different engine.

If you still say they're the same with performance upgrade its like saying ITR and civic has the same engine LOL. For gods sake, dont say that or you make a fool of yourself

[waitin4BOOST]

Definitely a different engine when gonig Force Induction.
There are many things you have to account for when your pushing more compressed air in large volumes...i think about 1 bar in this case (14.7psi) and @ the same time have your car reliable for daily driven.

Some things to make your engine reliable when going FI usually involves..
-bullet-proofing the block (so it doesn't grenade under load)
-low-compression pistons (Al. alloy in this case)
-beefier connecting rods
-head bolts (definite must)
-larger fuel injectors (more air - more fuel)
-I think STi's are Power water cooled...instead of an Air intercooler
-there is alot more other little things ie. engine management, more agressive ingnition system, map sensors, etc.

It's really not just the engine...when you tally up all the parts that is involved in building a reliable FI vehicle it really takes a toll on your budget. Going a bit farther I believe most of the money was spent on RnD and tuning. If you look @ the dyno chart for a STi the power curve is constant, there are rarely any dips and spikes. That said, as the old saying goes...you pay for what you get, and in this case 300hp/300tq

And...i didn't even touch on suspension....bottom line, when your going any type of force induction be it turbo/supercharger the engine will require strengthening and proper tuning to be reliable as a daily driven car.

side by side comparison WRX vs STi
http://www.cars101.com/subaru/impreza/wrxsti2006.html#mechanical

[Ride-On]

Good to know the differences - thanks.

I should point out that by no means am I suggesting that a modified 2.5i or 2.5RS = WRX -- I was merely suggesting that you get more bang for your buck. This is also more biased to WRX vs. 2.5RS than a comparison to the STi...

For the bulk of WRX/STi drivers... I'm willing to bet they aren't pushing their STi beyond 2.5i/2.5RS abilities... so might as well save $10,000+

[mudmojo]

For the bulk of WRX/STi drivers... I'm willing to bet they aren't pushing their STi beyond 2.5i/2.5RS abilities... so might as well save $10,000+


I would say you'd lose big time on that one.

Unlike most 4 bangers, the STi 2.5 produces lots of torque and a wide powerband with gearing to make every corner exit a pleasing experience and is thus easier to coax speed out of without knowing the ins and out of keeping, say, an older 911 Turbo on the road or even certain NA's like the S2000.

In the stopping, department the Brembos make things much more effortless. Good competition in the 06 WRX brakes though but the STi gets a big nod when compared to a 2.5i. Not so much in a one stop trial but in repeated abuse cases, the Brembos shine in comparison.

Traction? The 2.5i is a lowly 2WD AWD car while the STi is I think the only production NADM car which is actually 4WD all the time. The EVO might be there too but not sure of the JDM/NADM differences.


The STi, with factory settings, is about real world speeds and can make any joe blow average driver look pretty competent if they don't hit corners hot.

Stock rubber? 2.5i rides on crappy (and I do mean crappy) all-seasons while the STi rides on very performance oriented summers.


This is of course all in spirited driving. If what you're saying is that STi drivers don't drive fast on the street because they'll quickly get in trouble by being that public menace then yeah ok, you can keep your shirt... but not in the winter. ;)

[waitin4BOOST]

Haha I kind of agree with Ride-on's point of view...after all, sadly...the painful truth is, our speed limits are 60/100kph respectively.

I would still love to own one and would not shy one bit in taking it on an auto-x run.

[warpdrive]

Traction? The 2.5i is a lowly 2WD AWD car while the STi is I think the only production NADM car which is actually 4WD all the time. The EVO might be there too but not sure of the JDM/NADM differences.


Huh???? what the heck are you talking about? Manual transmission Subarus (all of them), and Audi Quattro sedans use a true 4WD full time system. Full Time 4WD is not unique to Sti's

[MameXP]

Huh???? what the heck are you talking about? Manual transmission Subarus (all of them), and Audi Quattro sedans use a true 4WD full time system. Full Time 4WD is not unique to Sti's


I think he means somethine else? I have heard that they're not same.

Onething unique about STi is the power ditribution to wheels. Its AUTOMATICALLY adjusted thro corners. While the WRX always remain 50/50 front and back.