340 Canadians soldiers killed on this day 62 year ago

[poedua]

I suspect no one is going to care.

But..... I'll post this in honour of a relative who is buried in in Itay...killed by the Germans in WW 2 ( 1944 ) anyway.

His buddy was killed on D-Day. The Canadian military deaths in Afganistan are dfficult to accept, but sadly our country has been there before.....340 Canadians died on this day a long time ago.Today is the anniversary of D-Day...62 years ago today. On that day, 340 Canadians died on Juno beach. 574 were wounded. For anyone who cares.....most of them just out of high school or university...late teens , early 20's.



- 14,000 Canadians landed on D-Day

- 450 jumped by parachute or landed by glider

- 10,000 sailors of the RCN ( Navy ) were involved

- During the first six days of the Normandy campaign, 1,017 Canadians died.

- By the end of the Normandy campaign, about 5,020 Canadians had been killed.

- About 5,400 Canadians are buried in France


...lest we forget.

[curtis]

These men died with honor. They deserve all of our respect and more.


I suspect no one is going to care.

But..... I'll post this in honour of a relative who is buried in in Itay...killed by the Germans in WW 2 ( 1944 ) anyway.

His buddy was killed on D-Day. The Canadian military deaths in Afganistan are dfficult to accept, but sadly our country has been there before.....340 Canadians died on this day a long time ago.Today is the anniversary of D-Day...62 years ago today. On that day, 340 Canadians died on Juno beach. 574 were wounded. For anyone who cares.....most of them just out of high school or university...late teens , early 20's.



- 14,000 Canadians landed on D-Day

- 450 jumped by parachute or landed by glider

- 10,000 sailors of the RCN ( Navy ) were involved

- During the first six days of the Normandy campaign, 1,017 Canadians died.

- By the end of the Normandy campaign, about 5,020 Canadians had been killed.

- About 5,400 Canadians are buried in France


...lest we forget.

[danfromwaterloo]

I watched Band of Brothers on Sunday on History Network...they had an all day marathon.

I watched "Day of Days", the episode where they were jumping into Normandy on D-Day. Now, I realize it is a fictional account of what it was like over there, but if it's remotely real, these men are heroes by even the strictest definition of the word. I watched as the men looked out their planes toward the jumpzone several kilometres out to see the clouds being lit up like a fiece lightning storm. I watched them dip under the clouds to witness the closest thing to hell on earth one can imagine. To look over and witness another plane of soldiers be shot, catch fire, and break up into a bunch of flaming pieces.

If that's even remotely what it was like on D-Day, I have a newfound respect for what these men went through. Not that I didn't before; but one can tell stories of how bad it was, and not truly grasp what they were saying. Then, to witness a recreation of it, and to feel an iota of what they were feeling.

We must never forget.

[konfusion666]

These men died with honor. They deserve all of our respect and more.

agreed & bump

[Montague]

It always kind of cheesed me off watching the movie "The Longest Day".

I mean Canada was barely given a mention (if at all) in the film - NO scenes of Juno beach.

I realize "in the big picture" Omaha/Utah beach were the important battles - but you would think Canada's contribution deserved at least SOME screen time.

(heck they found time to give the "Free French" forces some screen time).

[Howlader]

It always kind of cheesed me off watching the movie "The Longest Day".
Can you really see John Wayne playing a Canadian though?
"You can't give the enemy a break. Send him to hell. Eh?"
:razz:

[poedua]

I watched Band of Brothers on Sunday on History Network...they had an all day marathon.

I watched "Day of Days", the episode where they were jumping into Normandy on D-Day. Now, I realize it is a fictional account of what it was like over there, but if it's remotely real, these men are heroes by even the strictest definition of the word. I watched as the men looked out their planes toward the jumpzone several kilometres out to see the clouds being lit up like a fiece lightning storm. I watched them dip under the clouds to witness the closest thing to hell on earth one can imagine. To look over and witness another plane of soldiers be shot, catch fire, and break up into a bunch of flaming pieces.

If that's even remotely what it was like on D-Day, I have a newfound respect for what these men went through. Not that I didn't before; but one can tell stories of how bad it was, and not truly grasp what they were saying. Then, to witness a recreation of it, and to feel an iota of what they were feeling.

We must never forget.

I agree.

My son will be 18 in 2 years.....I couldn't imagine him going over on D-day to lay his life on the line , to fight on foreign soil for the freedom of another country ..the sacrifice they were willing to give ....boggles the mind IMO.

I'm not too sure how many of today's 18/19/ 20 + year old kids would sign up overnight to fight in Europe if called upon.

The courage and sheer guts these " kids " had in 1944 is very difficult to fathom...and makes me feel very humble anytime I think about my life today and all the freedoms I enjoy because of kids like them back in 1944.

[poedua]

It always kind of cheesed me off watching the movie "The Longest Day".

I mean Canada was barely given a mention (if at all) in the film - NO scenes of Juno beach.

I realize "in the big picture" Omaha/Utah beach were the important battles - but you would think Canada's contribution deserved at least SOME screen time.

(heck they found time to give the "Free French" forces some screen time).

I know what you mean ...14,000 Canadians on D-Day is a LOT !!!

[konfusion666]

I watched Band of Brothers on Sunday on History Network...they had an all day marathon.

I only watched that about 2-3 wks ago, borrowed the DVD set off a friend.

Very well done. Although the best part is actually the real-life interviews with the characters of the series, shown before each episode.

[ronin893]

That was a war worth fighting.

BTW, Canadians also fought in the Pacific theatre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_World_War_II

[Crotchety Old Man]

If Harper remains in power long enough, we may unfortunately be able to match that number again, one day soon.

[mattpiloto]

I think a lot more people care than you think, although, unfortunately, maybe not enough remember. We quite literally owe our freedom and way of life to these people and the sacrifice they made. They literally went through hell. Those men are heroes.

[poedua]

If Harper remains in power long enough, we may unfortunately be able to match that number again, one day soon.

It would be interesting to note the public / Harper reaction if 1,017 Canadian soldiers died in 6 days fighting in Afgahanistan...just as 1,017 Canadian soldiers died in 6 days of fighting around D-Day.

Different enemy in 1944 I suppose.

[poedua]

I think a lot more people care than you think, although, unfortunately, maybe not enough remember. We quite literally owe our freedom and way of life to these people and the sacrifice they made. They literally went through hell. Those men are heroes.

I just think not too many kids actually know much about D-Day these days - apart from what they see in movies.

Although that opening scene in Saving Private Ryan does give kids a pretty good idea of how those 340 Canadian 18 year old kids ( and older ) died so bravely 62 years ago today - June 6, 1944.

unbeleivable really.....not sure I could have done it as an 18 year old...ride a landing craft knowing as you ride in toward the beach for an hour or so you may be dead in a matter of seconds after you hit the beach from a hail of bullets

[frugalman]

That was a war worth fighting.

BTW, Canadians also fought in the Pacific theatre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_World_War_II

canadians defended hong kong on christmas day

[danfromwaterloo]

I agree.

My son will be 18 in 2 years.....I couldn't imagine him going over on D-day to lay his life on the line , to fight on foreign soil for the freedom of another country ..the sacrifice they were willing to give ....boggles the mind IMO.

I'm not too sure how many of today's 18/19/ 20 + year old kids would sign up overnight to fight in Europe if called upon.

The courage and sheer guts these " kids " had in 1944 is very difficult to fathom...and makes me feel very humble anytime I think about my life today and all the freedoms I enjoy because of kids like them back in 1944.

Sadly, today's children would be better soldiers. After all, how many people here played video games like Doom, Quake, and Unreal. We've become desensitized. However, I doubt the feeling in our stomachs would be any different once we hit the ground.

The scary thing is that many of the kids weren't 18+. A lot of soldiers signed up at 15+...however illegal, they lied to get in. My grandfather signed up for the air force at 17...one year too early. They never found out.

I have no doubt that if it came to defend my country, I could do the D-Day thing...but I also have no doubt that I'd have sh*t myself far more than any of our grandfathers, and I'm pretty sure I'd have died sooner too. I'm also counting my lucky stars that I didn't have to do it.

[Ojam]

Words can't describe what I want to say so I'll just say nothing. :(

[poedua]

Sadly, today's children would be better soldiers. After all, how many people here played video games like Doom, Quake, and Unreal. We've become desensitized. However, I doubt the feeling in our stomachs would be any different once we hit the ground.

The scary thing is that many of the kids weren't 18+. A lot of soldiers signed up at 15+...however illegal, they lied to get in. My grandfather signed up for the air force at 17...one year too early. They never found out.

I have no doubt that if it came to defend my country, I could do the D-Day thing...but I also have no doubt that I'd have sh*t myself far more than any of our grandfathers, and I'm pretty sure I'd have died sooner too. I'm also counting my lucky stars that I didn't have to do it.

I hear you.

Hate to admit it, I'm not sure if I would have the courage to do what those kids did. I may be a coward ...I just don't know how i would react knowing I was going to die within 10 minutes ( for example ) as I approached the beach for the landing. Virtually all the Canadians in the first wave were killed the second they hit the water to make a run for the beach.

To sit in a landing craft ( of the first wave that landed ) for an hour during the crossing knowing that you are very likely going to be dead within the hour is something i can't even contemplate.

[poedua]

canadians defended hong kong on christmas day


They fought bravely, but never stood a chance.

Hope I have a chance to visit the cemetary there one day..and the ones in Normandy too....and visit my relative buried in Italy.

I sincerely want to pay my respects if I ever have the opportunity.

[Cough]

And the bottom line is - what was the point of it all. We can go on about freedoms and Nazis (or insert whatever despicable regime you want here)and enemies and religions and differences of opinion - over the centuries before WW2 or the years since. Lots of good innocent young (mainly) men get killed to satisfy political agendas, nationalistic pride - you name it. And I am not talking con or lib or com or chris or mus or jew and I am talking them all.

War is hell. It is and always will be part of the human fabric on this planet. Lets hope we can make it thru all the turmoil relatively unscathed personally aand as a mature society.

And you only need to visit the row upon row of crosses in the Normandy cemeteries (as I have done many times) to be reminded how sad and pointless and expensive it all is.

[poedua]

And the bottom line is - what was the point of it all.

Germany occupied virtually all of Europe. The peoples of those countries wanted their freedom and their countries liberated.

Unselfishly, Canadians left ( most volunteered if you can imagine that ) Canada to go over there and fight - and die -for them, on their behalf to get their freedom and countries back for them.

Freedom was the point of it all...paiid for with their lives....the price of freedom isn't cheap .

Makes me very proud to be a Canadian.

[danfromwaterloo]

I hear you.

Hate to admit it, I'm not sure if I would have the courage to do what those kids did. I may be a coward ...I just don't know how i would react knowing I was going to die within 10 minutes ( for example ) as I approached the beach for the landing. Virtually all the Canadians in the first wave were killed the second they hit the water to make a run for the beach.

Courage really had nothing to do with it. If you didn't run out the plane, or the boat, your Sgt. would shoot you for insubordination. You had no choice. You ran and maybe survived, or you stayed and got shot either by the Sgt, or by the guns. And at the time of the attack, they didn't know exactly what they were going to be facing. I would say the true courage was after you made it to a safe spot on the beach AFTER crossing the beach, and THEN continuing to fight, and not crawling up into a ball and crying.



To sit in a landing craft ( of the first wave that landed ) for an hour during the crossing knowing that you are very likely going to be dead within the hour is something i can't even contemplate.

Yes. I have no idea how I'd react. To know that of this entire ship, only one or two people are going to survive would be crazy. SOME of those people who died were lucky enough to get shot and die quickly. Some were left wounded on the shore. Imagine that. You've been hit in the abdomen, and you're going to die in a half-hour. Now you get to lay on a beach in the middle of hell on earth and contemplate just how hellish it is before you die. Oh, and you get to watch other guys die around you.

I feel ill just thinking about it.

[poedua]

Yes. I have no idea how I'd react. To know that of this entire ship, only one or two people are going to survive would be crazy. SOME of those people who died were lucky enough to get shot and die quickly. Some were left wounded on the shore. Imagine that. You've been hit in the abdomen, and you're going to die in a half-hour. Now you get to lay on a beach in the middle of hell on earth and contemplate just how hellish it is before you die. Oh, and you get to watch other guys die around you.

I feel ill just thinking about it.

Good point.

Actually, if you made it to the beach and your buddy to the left and or right of you fell wounded, they were under STRICT order not to stop and help their wounded buddies but to keep running ahead, storming the beach for cover. They were to be left alone on the beach.

A lot of Canadians died a horrible slow death as a result, wounded on the beach.

"I feel ill just thinking about it. "- I had the same feeling.

[Cough]

Germany occupied virtually all of Europe. The peoples of those countries wanted their freedom and their countries liberated.
Yes I am aware of history.

Is the world a better place because of the allied victory? Would freedoms have come back another way anyway (eg by popular revolution) Would america not be so "interfering" in world affairs. Would there be better detente between Arab and Christian. Would call centers exist in Mumbai that take jobs from the west. Would Russia be so derelict? Would one of the people killed on Dday have invented nuclear fission................

One thing is certain with war is that many will die. What is not so certain is what it achieves in the end and how it moves history.

[Shaner]

If Harper remains in power long enough, we may unfortunately be able to match that number again, one day soon.

Using WW2 as political grounds to make your stance against Harper is pretty spineless and disgusting!
Way to honour those who died so you could have the freedom to make stupid comments like the one you just made.

[ronin893]

Lots of good innocent young (mainly) men get killed to satisfy political agendas, nationalistic pride - you name it. WW1 was a stupid pointless war as both sides were itching for a fight. WW2 was unavoidable. Genocide and ethnic cleansing had to be fought against.

[poedua]

Yes I am aware of history.

Is the world a better place because of the allied victory? .

Yup.

Europe was liberated. Hitler was defeated....which means countless millions of Jews were saved from further extermination. Russia survived. Britian survived. Poland survived etc. etc.


Would freedoms have come back another way anyway (eg by popular revolution) .

Not for Jews and ethnic minorities under Hitler and Nazism.



Would america not be so "interfering" in world affairs. .

The US were asked to join both World Wars - not to mention Pearl




Would there be better detente between Arab and Christian. Would call centers exist in Mumbai that take jobs from the west. Would Russia be so derelict? Would one of the people killed on Dday have invented nuclear fission.................

A question only Hitler could answer.


many will die. What is not so certain is what it achieves in the end and how it moves history.

Many die to defend themselves and so others don't have to live under occupation.

Do you beleive in defending yourself ..even against all odds...like Churchill vowed to do - and did ?

Also, not sure of the point you're trying to make...are you suggesting it was pointless and a waste for Canadians to have died fighting Hitler in WW 2 ?

[Shaner]

Yes I am aware of history.

Is the world a better place because of the allied victory? Would freedoms have come back another way anyway (eg by popular revolution) Would america not be so "interfering" in world affairs. Would there be better detente between Arab and Christian. Would call centers exist in Mumbai that take jobs from the west. Would Russia be so derelict? Would one of the people killed on Dday have invented nuclear fission................

One thing is certain with war is that many will die. What is not so certain is what it achieves in the end and how it moves history.

The thought of Germany controlling not only all of Europe, but eventually the rest of the world too sends a chill down my spine.
The world would have been a far worse place to live if the Germans had won WW2.

[ronin893]

Many die to defend themselves and so others don't have to live under occupation.You should put a period after themselves. Our citizens don't have a problem with occupying another country.

[xKagex]

Germany occupied virtually all of Europe. The peoples of those countries wanted their freedom and their countries liberated.

Unselfishly, Canadians left ( most volunteered if you can imagine that ) Canada to go over there and fight - and die -for them, on their behalf to get their freedom and countries back for them.

Freedom was the point of it all...paiid for with their lives....the price of freedom isn't cheap .

Makes me very proud to be a Canadian.

Makes you wonder why we have very few qualms about pissing it away today?

Sometimes I wonder if the fascists didn't end up winning anyway, despite the bravery and courage of our forefathers. Perhaps fascism and elitism is just an inevitable result of the type of capitalist system we live in. Definately something to think about in this society driven by fear, propaganda, and corporate dollars.

[xKagex]

The thought of Germany controlling not only all of Europe, but eventually the rest of the world too sends a chill down my spine.
The world would have been a far worse place to live if the Germans had won WW2.

Perhaps you could explain how it would have been different? An aryan superpower controlling the world.. yeah, that's hard to grasp.

[poedua]

Makes you wonder why we have very few qualms about pissing it away today?
Sometimes I wonder if the fascists didn't end up winning anyway, despite the bravery and courage of our forefathers. Perhaps fascism and elitism is just an inevitable result of the type of capitalist system we live in. Definately something to think about in this society driven by fear, propaganda, and corporate dollars.

" Makes you wonder why we have very few qualms about pissing it away today? "- good point. i guess that's the catch-22 of democracies , the very values you cherish and may have fought so hard for.... seem to also go by the wayside in a fervant desire to promote or protect them - i.e the US Patriot Act, US invasions, GITMO etc.

[asim99]

i am not so sure what the word hero means

[konfusion666]

Perhaps you could explain how it would have been different? An aryan superpower controlling the world.. yeah, that's hard to grasp.

bad taste

[Cough]

Also, not sure of the point you're trying to make...are you suggesting it was pointless and a waste for Canadians to have died fighting Hitler in WW 2 ?
While I have always been a defender of freedoms and anti-tyranny etc - and am proud to have been on "the winning side" in most wars of the last century, I would still say that any war is a huge waste - and war is always somewhat pointless given the waste of life, material etc. I was not trying to identify any single war. But look at any war in history - hundred years, crusades, vietnam, spanish american, boer, japan/china. ghenkis khan, hellenic, 1066............ the world is clearly a different place as a result of them, but is it really a better place? And I would point out that most of the jew extermination took place despite the war, so maybe after hitler did all his nasty stuff there would have been a better society if the allies just stopped feeding their cannons with their own people at that point (and no I am not a Hitler supporter in any way shape or form.)

[poedua]

i am not so sure what the word hero means

Knowlingly giving of yourself, or scarificing yourself, ( or willing to ) for the potential benefit of others.....and asking nothing in return.

[xKagex]

bad taste

Bad taste or just a disgusting notion? Nobody wants to talk about the nazi skeletons in the US closet, or in the closets of the world's largest corporations. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Anyway, I'll leave it at that - that topic's been beaten to death, I suspect.

[konfusion666]

Bad taste or just a disgusting notion? Nobody wants to talk about the nazi skeletons in the US closet, or in the closets of the world's largest corporations. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Anyway, I'll leave it at that - that topic's been beaten to death, I suspect.

well you can't deny the 55+ years of post-WW2 global development to... just make a statement on, what, 1 or at best 2 annoying U.S. Administrations ?

[poedua]

While I have always been a defender of freedoms and anti-tyranny etc - and am proud to have been on "the winning side" in most wars of the last century, I would still say that any war is a huge waste - and war is always somewhat pointless given the waste of life, material etc. I was not trying to identify any single war. But look at any war in history - hundred years, crusades, vietnam, spanish american, boer, japan/china. ghenkis khan, hellenic, 1066............ the world is clearly a different place as a result of them, but is it really a better place? And I would point out that most of the jew extermination took place despite the war, so maybe after hitler did all his nasty stuff there would have been a better society if the allies just stopped feeding their cannons with their own people at that point (and no I am not a Hitler supporter in any way shape or form.)

Huh ?

" And I would point out that most of the jew extermination took place despite the war, so maybe after hitler did all his nasty stuff there would have been a better society "- .............."after hitler did all his nasty stuff " ........" there would have been a better society ".........please tell me your kidding. !!!!

How is the virtual extermination of all Eurpeoan Jewry, ethnic minorities, homosexuals, mentally challenged etc. etc. - all Hitler targets for genocide had he not been stopped - in ANY WAY result in a better society ????

It's genocide...if there had been no D-Day ( and Britian surrendered back in 41/42) Hitler would have continued unabated with rampant genocide ...and with only a 1 ( eastern ) front war to contend with, he likely would have defeated Russia .......you realize that don't you ?

[Shaner]

WW1 was a stupid pointless war as both sides were itching for a fight. WW2 was unavoidable. Genocide and ethnic cleansing had to be fought against.

I don't really think the triple entente was really looking for a fight.
Britain was paranoid of Germany, so they continued to build up their Army and Navy.

Once Franz Ferdinand was killed, Germany used that as an excuse to invade Belgium and France. Britain didn't really have any choice but to join the war at that point.

Germany was definitely looking for a fight, although I think they were the only ones.

[gei]

If Harper remains in power long enough, we may unfortunately be able to match that number again, one day soon.

Pathetic. You are indeed a crotchety old man.

[xKagex]

Pathetic. You are indeed a crotchety old man.

You're gei! (couldn't resist, lol)

[UrbanPoet]

god bless these soldiers.
:|

[UrbanPoet]

Germany occupied virtually all of Europe. The peoples of those countries wanted their freedom and their countries liberated.

Unselfishly, Canadians left ( most volunteered if you can imagine that ) Canada to go over there and fight - and die -for them, on their behalf to get their freedom and countries back for them.

Freedom was the point of it all...paiid for with their lives....the price of freedom isn't cheap .

Makes me very proud to be a Canadian.

QFT
exactly brother.

[ronin893]

I don't really think the triple entente was really looking for a fight.
Britain was paranoid of Germany, so they continued to build up their Army and Navy.

Once Franz Ferdinand was killed, Germany used that as an excuse to invade Belgium and France. Britain didn't really have any choice but to join the war at that point.

Germany was definitely looking for a fight, although I think they were the only ones.Wow, you're really prone to believing just one side's version of history.

The Empire Over Which the Sun Never Sets was paranoid?! Don't make me laugh. At the time, Britain and her colonies was the most powerful empire in the world. I think what you meant to say is mistrust. There was massive mistrust among the colonial powers. This is something that they could have avoided before war broke out. Pointing fingers at who started it is schoolyard immaturity.

Anyway, I don't think we should go off-topic in this thread. Many historians have debated this to death and there's still no consensus. Check out Wikipedia to read the other theories.

[Cough]

Huh ?

" And I would point out that most of the jew extermination took place despite the war, so maybe after hitler did all his nasty stuff there would have been a better society "- .............."after hitler did all his nasty stuff " ........" there would have been a better society ".........please tell me your kidding. !!!!

How is the virtual extermination of all Eurpeoan Jewry, ethnic minorities, homosexuals, mentally challenged etc. etc. - all Hitler targets for genocide had he not been stopped - in ANY WAY result in a better society ????

It's genocide...if there had been no D-Day ( and Britian surrendered back in 41/42) Hitler would have continued unabated with rampant genocide ...and with only a 1 ( eastern ) front war to contend with, he likely would have defeated Russia .......you realize that don't you ?

Is the world a better place or a worse place after the armenian genocide. There was no war to stop that one. Are armenians extinct? In fact because of the genocide and the flight of armenians, they became very succesful all over the world. So I can argue that society benefitted despite this genocide. And no i am not advocating genocide. And please dont quote me carefully leaving out my word maybe :mad: Why dont you think a little before you post using CW

[Crotchety Old Man]

Using WW2 as political grounds to make your stance against Harper is pretty spineless and disgusting!
Way to honour those who died so you could have the freedom to make stupid comments like the one you just made.
Re-read your own quote above, and ask yourself how much you are respecting that particular hard-earned freedom.

[whargoul]

S!

[Menace]

Ditto

Long live Canada!


These men died with honor. They deserve all of our respect and more.

[poedua]

Is the world a better place or a worse place after the armenian genocide.

Any time you conduct genocidal actions with the intent to destroy a national / ethnic, group - like the Armenians - the world is a " worse place ".

Genocide is a criminal, immoral act that has no justification under ANY circumstances IMO....and has never proven to have any justification in the past. No "ends "can justify the "means "of this criminal act.


There was no war to stop that one.

Which has no relevance to the morality or acceptability of genocide ..there was no war over Rwanda and the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Tutsis either. However, I'm sure you'll agree, the genocide in Rwanda was immoral and the world is a " worse place " as a result.



Are armenians extinct?

The efficiency or completeness of genocidal acts - i.e extinction - is irrelevant to the immorality and lack of validity of the acts.



In fact because of the genocide and the flight of armenians, they became very succesful all over the world.

Give Arrmenians the choice as to how they wish to attain success..genocide is an irrational justication for alleged calibre of the surviving members...it's an illogical argument.


So I can argue that society benefitted despite this genocide.

Genocide is a crime of international law - both in times of war and in peace time. Crimes do not benefit society...that's why there are laws to combat them.

As yet in the dozen or genocides that have taken place this past century , all were crimes and none were of any benefit to society - Armenia included.


And no i am not advocating genocide .

No .....you don't advocate genocide.

The difference is, I condem genocide..........you don't condemn it.

The distinction is a subtle yet very significant one and marks the difference between you and I on this issue IMO.

IN ANY EVENT: Today is the anniversary of D-Day, when 340 young Canadians lost their lives on June 6th ....if you want to debate the merits of the Armenian genocide, start a new thread.

My suggestion is we take one day like today to remember - with some measure of respect - all those young men who fell 62 years ago today - Germans included.

[poedua]

Re-read your own quote above, and ask yourself how much you are respecting that particular hard-earned freedom.

Perhaps the distinction is that Shaner actually respects the right of anyone to express an opinion - the freedom of expression / speech - but simply doesn't respect the opinion itself ( i.e allegedly " stupid comments ") being put forth.

[dark169]

Re-read your own quote above, and ask yourself how much you are respecting that particular hard-earned freedom.

Respecting your right to say something isn't the same as respecting the person who says it. Personally your comments show a total lack of respect and I think anyone who reads it should remember your dispicable comments in future conversations. It doesn't mean I dont respect your right to say what ever you want, it just means I dont respect you as a person for saying them.

[Shaner]

Perhaps the distinction is that Shaner actually respects the right of anyone to express an opinion - the freedom of expression / speech - but simply doesn't respect the opinion itself ( i.e allegedly " stupid comments ") being put forth.

Exactly!
Just because you have the right to do/say something, doesn't mean you should.

It doesn't sound like you have any respect for our fallen soldiers, the soldiers who gave you the very right you are exercising.

[blackhawk]

If Harper remains in power long enough, we may unfortunately be able to match that number again, one day soon.



:(
you just dont get what this thread is about

[Crotchety Old Man]

I don't believe that the Canadians who died on D-Day for our freedom of speech would mind a fellow Canadian questioning our foreign policy which may lead to the death of many more Canadians unless we vigilantly question it.

It is critically relevant in present day Canada.

You may not agree with my opinion, but that's not the point of freedom of speech.

[UrbanPoet]

:arrowu:
Stop being so disrespectful to soldiers that have passed away.

[asim99]

I don't believe that the Canadians who died on D-Day for our freedom of speech would mind a fellow Canadian questioning our foreign policy which may lead to the death of many more Canadians unless we vigilantly question it.

It is critically relevant in present day Canada.

You may not agree with my opinion, but that's not the point of freedom of speech.
well said, brother!

[b166er1337]

I watched Band of Brothers on Sunday on History Network...they had an all day marathon.

I watched "Day of Days", the episode where they were jumping into Normandy on D-Day. Now, I realize it is a fictional account of what it was like over there, but if it's remotely real, these men are heroes by even the strictest definition of the word.

Band of Brothers is based on real story and real characters.

[Shaner]

I don't believe that the Canadians who died on D-Day for our freedom of speech would mind a fellow Canadian questioning our foreign policy which may lead to the death of many more Canadians unless we vigilantly question it.

It is critically relevant in present day Canada.

You may not agree with my opinion, but that's not the point of freedom of speech.

I doubt they would either. I don't even mind you questioning our foreign policies, I'll be right there asking questions with you.

But what is not right is using a thread about our WW2 casualties as a chance to rip Harper. That's just not right and is extremely tasteless and disrespectful.

You're right, freedom of speech is a right whether we agree with your opinion or not. In fact, that's the beauty of freedom of speech, but sometimes it's better not to say what you think. If you ask me, this was one of those times.

If you want to question Harper's motives, by all means do so, but please use a different thread.

If you dont' hold our WW1 & WW2 soldiers in high regard and can't give them the respect they deserve, at least respect the people who do and stay out of this thread.

[poedua]

I don't believe that the Canadians who died on D-Day for our freedom of speech would mind a fellow Canadian questioning our foreign policy which may lead to the death of many more Canadians unless we vigilantly question it.

It is critically relevant in present day Canada.

You may not agree with my opinion, but that's not the point of freedom of speech.

What is your opinion on the Canadians who died on D-Day ?

What is your opinion of Canada's role in WW2 ...i.e should we have joined in the fight agianst Hitler or not in your opinion ?

[poedua]

well said, brother!

LOL !

[Wulf]

I just think not too many kids actually know much about D-Day these days - apart from what they see in movies.

Although that opening scene in Saving Private Ryan does give kids a pretty good idea of how those 340 Canadian 18 year old kids ( and older ) died so bravely 62 years ago today - June 6, 1944.

unbeleivable really.....not sure I could have done it as an 18 year old...ride a landing craft knowing as you ride in toward the beach for an hour or so you may be dead in a matter of seconds after you hit the beach from a hail of bullets

Good thread...
Not to take anything away from anyone that served in the landings, but the beach landings were a great success. Private Ryan dealt with the American landings at Omaha which were badly messed up for many reasons... lack of decisive air strikes, tanks not getting ashore etc. For landings on Juno beach , where the Canadians landed try reading 'Battle Diary from D-Day and Normandy to the Zuider Zee' by Charles Martin, this gentleman is from Mississauga and his description of the landing is pretty different from the Hollywood version. As I recall he said that the landing craft basically landed alone with several hundred yards between them and they fought ashore and inland in small groups.
I think it was Patton that said that 'all battle plans fall apart after first contact with the enemy' meaning after that its all about bravery of the individual foot soldier that decided the outcome.

[poedua]

Good thread...
Not to take anything away from anyone that served in the landings, but the beach landings were a great success. Private Ryan dealt with the American landings at Omaha which were badly messed up for many reasons... lack of decisive air strikes, tanks not getting ashore etc. For landings on Juno beach , where the Canadians landed try reading 'Battle Diary from D-Day and Normandy to the Zuider Zee' by Charles Martin, this gentleman is from Mississauga and his description of the landing is pretty different from the Hollywood version. As I recall he said that the landing craft basically landed alone with several hundred yards between them and they fought ashore and inland in small groups.
I think it was Patton that said that 'all battle plans fall apart after first contact with the enemy' meaning after that its all about bravery of the individual foot soldier that decided the outcome.

I understand the mess up at Omaha Beach as well ....they took the worst of it....I read about their landing from Ambrose's book ...another good read is the book The Bedford Boys on this too - it's about one small US town of only 3,000 people who sent 100 kids over and lost 19 kids within the first minutes of hitting the beach ! A great read.

My reference to Private Ryan was from the point of view that it gave a pretty good idea of what it was like to land and face a hail of bullets, bodies being blown apart, wounded men left stranded on the beach crying out for their mothers...very sobering stuff...and canadian kids faced that

[EchoAngel911]

god bless the soldiers who fought for our freedom

[Crotchety Old Man]

What is your opinion on the Canadians who died on D-Day ?
Deepest respect.


What is your opinion of Canada's role in WW2 ...i.e should we have joined in the fight agianst Hitler or not in your opinion ?
Yes. (It did wonders for the economy. Though this particular battle was, imho, a needless slaughter of front-line troops, poorly planned by back-line generals.)

[Crotchety Old Man]

If you dont' hold our WW1 & WW2 soldiers in high regard and can't give them the respect they deserve, at least respect the people who do and stay out of this thread.
You're questioning of my respect for Canada's soldiers is getting tiresome, Shaner. My respect takes the form of continuing their fight for freedom and the future of Canada through debating our nation's ideals.

If any future battle memorial thread is labelled "Strictly for memorial purposes only - no relevant parallels are to be drawn from the purpose of our fallen heroes' sacrifice - entomb their ideals in the past", then I will refrain from posting in it, because in my book, that type of thread is the ultimate disrespect.

[poedua]

Deepest respect.


Yes. (It did wonders for the economy. Though this particular battle was, imho, a needless slaughter of front-line troops, poorly planned by back-line generals.)



" War is mainly a catalogue of blunders "

~Winston Churchill

[Crotchety Old Man]

Using WW2 as political grounds to make your stance against Harper is pretty spineless and disgusting!
Way to honour those who died so you could have the freedom to make stupid comments like the one you just made.
Though I find it sad that I have to point it out to you, I'm waiting to see an apology from you for the above disrespectful statement. And please be aware - this apology is certainly not to me, but rather to our veterans and fallen Canadian soldiers, whose hard fought ideals you have sullied with your thoughtless words.

If you truly believe the essence of what you have written, you will publicly recant your slander of our heroic troops. If not, it becomes obvious that you are simply a poser intent on attempting to intimidate, to support your own implied political point of view.

[Peckerwood]

D-Day was not a blunder...it was a calculated risk, where the Alllies determined that they needed an immediate beach head to facilitate the further invasion of europe to press the Germans back.

Air power was not a superior force back then compared to what it is today...nor was it precise in support

Satellite overview was not available for up-to-the-minute information access

Information back then was more like up-to-the-week access...and was not entirely reliable at that.

They could not depend on heavy air support because it would give away their position...they were relying heavily on a ruse that they hoped Hitler would follow. Any other actions would have destroyed the effectiveness of that ruse and instead brought down the German armoured divisions down heavy upon them. So much for a beach head if that was to occur.

Heavy casualties were expected...they knew that they were going to have to punch through a fortified beach position...the one they took was one with some of the best advantages and best positional attack routes available with the least overt attack opportunites...Something that Hitler would have had in the rearward portion of his mind rather than the front of his mind. If they were to take the best beach head then Hitler would have been on them from the get-go.

something about the Art of War..."though efficient, appear to be inefficient; though effective apear to be ineffective...orthodoxy may win some battles, but unorthodoxy wins the war"

Everything about the planning of that attack screamed of stratgey and tactical guesswork.

And behold...it worked.

--------


I'll post this in honour of a relative who is buried in in Itay...killed by the Germans in WW 2 ( 1944 ) anyway.

My Grandfather was in Italy on D-day...Loyal Edmonton Regiment, 2nd Lieutenant John James Mackie;
http://usera.imagecave.com/peckerwood/Lt.JohnJamesMackie1.jpg

[poedua]

D-Day was not a blunder...it was a calculated risk, where the Alllies determined that they needed an immediate beach head to facilitate the further invasion of europe to press the Germans back.

Air power was not a superior force back then compared to what it is today...nor was it precise in support

Satellite overview was not available for up-to-the-minute information access

Information back then was more like up-to-the-week access...and was not entirely reliable at that.

They could not depend on heavy air support because it would give away their position...they were relying heavily on a ruse that they hoped Hitler would follow. Any other actions would have destroyed the effectiveness of that ruse and instead brought down the German armoured divisions down heavy upon them. So much for a beach head if that was to occur.

Heavy casualties were expected...they knew that they were going to have to punch through a fortified beach position...the one they took was one with some of the best advantages and best positional attack routes available with the least overt attack opportunites...Something that Hitler would have had in the rearward portion of his mind rather than the front of his mind. If they were to take the best beach head then Hitler would have been on them from the get-go.

something about the Art of War..."though efficient, appear to be inefficient; though effective apear to be ineffective...orthodoxy may win some battles, but unorthodoxy wins the war"

Everything about the planning of that attack screamed of stratgey and tactical guesswork.

And behold...it worked.

--------



My Grandfather was in Italy on D-day...Loyal Edmonton Regiment, 2nd Lieutenant John James Mackie;
http://usera.imagecave.com/peckerwood/Lt.JohnJamesMackie1.jpg

Good post.

My relative is buried near Ortona Ilaly. His brother is still alive and each Rememberance Day, it's as if his brother just died yesterday...very emotional stuff for him ( and us ) ...even 62 years later.

Althought I included the " blunder " quote, generally spoeaking I''d have to agree.....that quote was imore in response to Crotchety Old Man who said D-Day was " a needless slaughter " and " poorly planned ".

When ypu consider it was the largest naval armada invasion in history...the fact that they actually panned it and carried it out with virtully secrecy - suprising the Gerrmans - speaks for itself.

I think overall, more went " right " that day " then wrong ".

[FastFokker]

Using WW2 as political grounds to make your stance against Harper is pretty spineless and disgusting!
Way to honour those who died so you could have the freedom to make stupid comments like the one you just made.Re-read your own quote above, and ask yourself how much you are respecting that particular hard-earned freedom.Oh nice one!

It's absolutely true.. war, death and poverty all happened on behalf of Canada to keep our rights and freedoms, not to gain anything, but to keep what we had. As a democratic nation, we have the right to elect our own government, made of the people and by the people... from that we also have the rights and freedom to say what we want about that government.

Harper isn't SO bad (so far), but every person (at least those who vote in my opinion) have the right to dissent. Paid for by our nation and by our relatives in the face of adversity. If we wanted to be a conquered people, we should never have fought.. we are NOT a conquered people, so you cannot tell another to shut up in regards to their opinion on democratic politics.

Shame on Shaner!

[Shaner]

Oh nice one!

It's absolutely true.. war, death and poverty all happened on behalf of Canada to keep our rights and freedoms, not to gain anything, but to keep what we had. As a democratic nation, we have the right to elect our own government, made of the people and by the people... from that we also have the rights and freedom to say what we want about that government.

Harper isn't SO bad (so far), but every person (at least those who vote in my opinion) have the right to dissent. Paid for by our nation and by our relatives in the face of adversity. If we wanted to be a conquered people, we should never have fought.. we are NOT a conquered people, so you cannot tell another to shut up in regards to their opinion on democratic politics.

Shame on Shaner!

In case you missed it, I have a problem with what he is saying, not the fact that he is exercising his right to free speech. Just like you don't like my opinion, it doesn't mean you are telling me to shutup.
So unless you can point to a post of mine where I told him to shutup, your thread is pointless.

[Shaner]

Though I find it sad that I have to point it out to you, I'm waiting to see an apology from you for the above disrespectful statement. And please be aware - this apology is certainly not to me, but rather to our veterans and fallen Canadian soldiers, whose hard fought ideals you have sullied with your thoughtless words.

If you truly believe the essence of what you have written, you will publicly recant your slander of our heroic troops. If not, it becomes obvious that you are simply a poser intent on attempting to intimidate, to support your own implied political point of view.

Apology for what? For telling you not to use a WW2 thread to make a stance against Harper? That's exactly what you did.
In case you missed you, I'm not the only one who thinks what you said is wrong!

I haven't disrespected any fallen soldier in the history of RFD nor would I ever. I was trying to keep an important thread on topic and not let it spew off to anti-Harper comments.

You can continue to say what you want, but I'm done arguing with you in such an important thread like this. All we are doing is tarnishing it. Hopefully you see that so that this thread can get back on topic.

[Crotchety Old Man]

I knew it.