All things Old Homes

[hagbard]

What you like or hate about older homes (pre-70s), what issues you've faced as an owner of an old home, what to look for when buying one. Etc. Fire away.

[BuildingHomes]

1953, built by the home owners who immigrated from Poland just after WW2. They dug the basement, and lived in it while building above. (whole neighbourhood is like this)


Bothersome things:

Stupidly done electrical that required a lot of changes.. Old panel that needed to be upgraded.

Old plumbing, but functional and very localized to one area of the house making it an easy fix if required.

Old windows that need replacing.

Somewhat uneven and saggy floors.

Old furnace that needed replacing.

Plaster walls are a pain in the ass to cut into for additions.

Nice things:

It's unique and not cookie cutter. I had a new house before this and think I prefer the old ones.

HUGE lot size.

Solid foundation, solid framing. The wood they used was actual real 2"x4" or 6" or 8". Really nice.

Plaster walls are nice and solid looking/feeling.

Less expensive.

[Dustbunny]

I'm in my second 1930's house, just left a 1960 house and had a new build (2002). I love old houses.

The bad:
- may have some remuddling and it takes some doing to fix it or find original/period details again,
- can need some expensive fixes/upgrades/replacements (although hopefully the purchase price reflected them) like furnace, electrical (insurance insists), plumbing (insurance again),
- sometimes smaller than new for same $ (depends where you live)
- closets etc. often too small (the older the home, the less the storage space)
- have to be very aware of redevelopment plans in older neighbourhoods as they can make life hell and play havoc with land values,
- it costs more to heat/cool an older house unless it's insulation has been changed/added
- things are where other people chose to put them be it garages, fences, gardens or whatever and you either accept it or work/pay to change it.

The good:
- character no new homes can match
- no garages out front
- mature trees usually
- all the houses on the street don't look the same just from changes over the years and the way they were built
- generally closer to the center of the city (better transportation systems, shorter commute times, closer to entertainment),
- walking neighbourhoods (burbs are built for cars vs inner city built for walking)
- walls (if they haven't been remuddled), and they're plaster which I prefer (and no popcorn ceilings!!!!)
- better built
- not much chance of off gassing etc. that goes with a new build when you have an old home and just by their nature, air does flow through because they aren't all sealed up
- compared to a new build I found it less work and less pressing to buy an older home that already has it's garage, yard, grass, fence in place (even if they aren't quite perfect).

Eyes open when buying:
- good maintenance means fewer problems and expenses
- solid foundations when they are there, but must be checked
- the more original features the better (I walked when shown any older home that was being flipped (or wrecked as I see it)), look for permit/inspection stickers on any changes as some folks' DIY is nothing short of dangerous
- again, check redevelopment plans for short and long range plans in the area which could be an issue
- really need to look with an eye for potential especially if seeing a very out of date house. Attention to lot size is key.
- really need to know what things cost before making an offer as some things are easy to replace/repair, others not so easy. eg. Wallpaper can be removed, painted wallpaper is more trouble than it's worth. Countertops and floors are easy to replace and not that expensive, digging in a new sewer pipe can cost a fortune. Part II is life is much easier if you budget to deal with repairs immediately as once they are done, it's out of the way and no more worries.

[hagbard]

Terrific info so far. Is it very costly and difficult to insulate, say, a house from the twenties that has no insulation? Do insurance companies in Ontario nail you for things like an old roof or an oil tank that's more than 15 years old?

[BuildingHomes]

Terrific info so far. Is it very costly and difficult to insulate, say, a house from the twenties that has no insulation? Do insurance companies in Ontario nail you for things like an old roof or an oil tank that's more than 15 years old?

One of the conditions of my insurance when buying the place was to have the old tank removed since it was about 20 years old. I ended up just getting natural gas run to the house and a whole new furnace installed.

As for re-insulating a house.. it would be like any other. Remove walls, stuff in insulation, maybe a vapour barrier (depending on HVAC system) and then cover it all up. While it's open you could get the electrical upgraded, new cable/phone/network added, etc..

[Dustbunny]

short answer: yes, very difficult to insulate

long answer: As far as I know the usual approach is to insulate the attic area but you basically have to leave the rest unless you are up for some work. That means either insulation from outside which you can do if you ever redo the exterior or if you don't mind holes being punched every foot or so around the house so they can blow stuff in. There are a few houses around me where you can see the plugs in the house and they look terrible. It's near impossible with stucco to do it without it showing after or redoing the exterior.

The other method is to insulate if you pull down the interior walls. Another major job.

What I have never seen (although seems to me to be a logical approach) is to punch those holes in the interior instead of exterior as plaster is easy to repair but I've not seen it.

For me, I really don't notice a huge difference in having no insulation (this house and another I had have zero insulation in the walls). The new house I had felt suffocating to me (no fresh air and I really noticed that), wasn't warmer or cooler (actually it seemed much hotter to me in the summer) and my bills were about the same (maybe because I had to have an open window at all times in that new house just to get air). Some people may really notice, I sure don't when it comes to just being comfortable.

Insurance: I noticed moving into this house they were very interested in the age of the roof, furnace, water heater. They insisted my electric panel and plumbing be upgraded. It may vary by insurer but you can count on them wanting older things replaced and they are being very insistent on it these days. How they judge when a roof etc. need to go is probably dependent on the company.

[gnunn]

We live in a 143 year old house that was renovated a couple of years ago.

Pros

- Love the character of the house, biggest reason to own an older home in my opinion
- Large lot compared to modern houses, my previous house was on a 32' wide lot whereas this one is on a 90' lot
- Hand in hand with the above, neighborhood is much more spaced out and far less traffic. In the old place we used to keep our son in the back for playing and that's no longer an issue here
- Mature trees with a lot more shade
- A lot more wildlife like birds, squirrels and chipmunks and even a groundhog

Cons

- Basement is always muggy and humid and not useable for anything other then storage.
- We have a stone foundation which is porous compared to a modern foundation, have to keep an eye on water to make sure it is draining away properly.
- single car driveway
- Garage is tiny, basically a glorified shed more then anything else
- Keeping the character of the house can make reno's and updates more expensive then they would be in a modern house.

[hagbard]

We live in a 143 year old house that was renovated a couple of years ago.

Pros

- Love the character of the house, biggest reason to own an older home in my opinion
- Large lot compared to modern houses, my previous house was on a 32' wide lot whereas this one is on a 90' lot
- Hand in hand with the above, neighborhood is much more spaced out and far less traffic. In the old place we used to keep our son in the back for playing and that's no longer an issue here
- Mature trees with a lot more shade
- A lot more wildlife like birds, squirrels and chipmunks and even a groundhog

Cons

- Basement is always muggy and humid and not useable for anything other then storage.
- We have a stone foundation which is porous compared to a modern foundation, have to keep an eye on water to make sure it is draining away properly.
- single car driveway
- Garage is tiny, basically a glorified shed more then anything else
- Keeping the character of the house can make reno's and updates more expensive then they would be in a modern house.

You need perimeter drain tiles for that basement. Worst case, you have the house lifted and a new foundation poured. But I'm no expert.

[Bullseye]

1953, built by the home owners who immigrated from Poland just after WW2. They dug the basement, and lived in it while building above. (whole neighbourhood is like this)

Just curious, is this in Burlington you're talking about? If so, what area? I've lived in a house from that era, Mountainside area.

[BuildingHomes]

Just curious, is this in Burlington you're talking about? If so, what area? I've lived in a house from that era, Mountainside area.

Brant/QEW/PlainsRoad/Fairview.

[Bullseye]

Brant/QEW/PlainsRoad/Fairview.

I always noticed that area is really cheap to buy, comparatively. Is it because they were owner built, do you think? Or just proximity to the QEW?

We looked at a couple houses in that area, some of them were really nice.

[phatmanmd]

i'm in an 90 year old house in leaside - was elated when we bought it (we moved in in feb), thinking there were the few things that would need to be done within 5 years - like the furnace and the roof. after living here for 6 months, we've been hit with surprise after surprise. appears that the previous owners did a lot to "flip" the place, but only esthetically. some of the problems we faced include:

-we had a roof leak - turned out to be the flashing around the chimney was leaking, which was previously "patched by a local tradesman" according to the previous owner. simple problem? nope. the roof actually had 5 layers of old shingles built on one another, so re-flashing the chimney was not a straight forward fix. we ended up redoing the whole roof, removing everything underneath. an anticipated expense, but unexpectedly coming 5 years early. when you look at a prospective house, and if it's a semi, look to see if one roof is a couple inches higher than the other - that'll tip you off that there may be multiple layers of shingles - and potential problems with moisture trapping, etc.

-basement sewer backup - several issues here too. despite the system having 'no problems', there was an old p-trap on the main line that wasn't dug up when code changed to require a ptrap for every fixture. resulted in a cascade of events which included jackhammering my basement (removing ptrap), and lifting my porch and digging up my lawn (replacing main line with pvc)

-in the attic, i had to: lay new insulation, repair a plumbing vent line, and clean up tonnes of raccoon feces that was left there from when raccoons were previously evicted 10 years ago (or so i hear)

a lot of work but bottom line: i love my house, it's got character, great SAFE neighborhood, lots of tree-cover (and therefore cool this past month) and friendly neighbors. plus i love the place more given the work i've put into it, and the resale value is now higher! :cheesygri

[hagbard]

i'm in an 90 year old house in leaside - was elated when we bought it (we moved in in feb), thinking there were the few things that would need to be done within 5 years - like the furnace and the roof. after living here for 6 months, we've been hit with surprise after surprise. appears that the previous owners did a lot to "flip" the place, but only esthetically. some of the problems we faced include:

-we had a roof leak - turned out to be the flashing around the chimney was leaking, which was previously "patched by a local tradesman" according to the previous owner. simple problem? nope. the roof actually had 5 layers of old shingles built on one another, so re-flashing the chimney was not a straight forward fix. we ended up redoing the whole roof, removing everything underneath. an anticipated expense, but unexpectedly coming 5 years early. when you look at a prospective house, and if it's a semi, look to see if one roof is a couple inches higher than the other - that'll tip you off that there may be multiple layers of shingles - and potential problems with moisture trapping, etc.

-basement sewer backup - several issues here too. despite the system having 'no problems', there was an old p-trap on the main line that wasn't dug up when code changed to require a ptrap for every fixture. resulted in a cascade of events which included jackhammering my basement (removing ptrap), and lifting my porch and digging up my lawn (replacing main line with pvc)

-in the attic, i had to: lay new insulation, repair a plumbing vent line, and clean up tonnes of raccoon feces that was left there from when raccoons were previously evicted 10 years ago (or so i hear)

a lot of work but bottom line: i love my house, it's got character, great SAFE neighborhood, lots of tree-cover (and therefore cool this past month) and friendly neighbors. plus i love the place more given the work i've put into it, and the resale value is now higher! :cheesygri

Did you have an house inspection before buying?

[gnunn]

You need perimeter drain tiles for that basement. Worst case, you have the house lifted and a new foundation poured. But I'm no expert.

Actually it's been inspected and it's fine, when the house was renovated all the land around it was regraded and this has been sufficient to keep water out of the basement and away from the foundation. It's still something you need to keep an eye on though.

[phatmanmd]

Did you have an house inspection before buying?

yeah, of course we did. but the usual clauses applied when booking the home inspection: they could not look behind walls, lift carpets, look in concealed areas, etc etc. the dude did go up to the attic, and told us about the insulation, but he missed the plumbing vent pipe and raccoon feces. there was no way he could have looked at the sewer system unless he stuck a camera down - but there was a warning about old clay pipes in the final report anyway. they told us about the roof needing replacing within 5 years which they were right about - but there was no way to know that the chimney flashing was going to leak after the winter season, necessitating the whole re-roofing.

the home inspection company was carson-dunlop - overall, it was generally a good job, but all the crap that i dealt with i think was a series of circumstance and bad luck.

[sleepyguy]

Buildinghomes,

We're selling our home later this year and hoping to either buy an older bunglaow or newish townhome. If we go with the old you are definately coming on by to do alot of wiring work :)

Our previous home was a 1930s home east end Toronto. Over the 2 1/2 year period we...

- gutted and rebuilt washroom
- cleaned and repaired old windows (too expensive to replace) old style push up and put and peice of wood to hold up :)
- replaced all gutters and facia
- redid all eletrical system to gov't standards (removed all knot&tube)
- rebuilt porch
- finished basement and replaced 2 basement windows

notes to be away of
- very cold in winter time... very hot in the summer time... very airy because the house wasn't sealed up. expensive bills
- massive dust
- renos can cause some headaches when living there as well.

Even if our next home won't an older home I know we'll be buying another fix'er upper eventually. We're suckers for old stuff that need some TLC. -sg

[Regin8r]

We take possession of our old bungalow (built in 1960) tomorrow night. After reading this thread, I'm lookin' forward to all the problems awaiting me.

No basement, no garage. We have a crawl space, a well for a fountain (but city water for the faucets), a septic tank, all electric heating. The only saving grace is the major renovation done in 1986 to upgrade the wiring of the entire house and upgrade the plumbing.

Should be fun....great times ahead.

[rubberband]

I've recently bought a semi built in the mid-50s. The previous owners had done some good things, such as get gas for heat and hot water, replace the electrical panel with a modern one, and upgrade the windows to pretty nice vinyl frames. Easy to clean!

Overall..

The good:

-built like a bomb shelter. 2x6 studs at 16" where they should be. All the walls are remarkably square and plumb. Really made to last.
-Easy to work on. Virtually everything is accessible via the basement ceiling or the open attic.
-Nice mature trees. It's a pretty small lot (it is a semi bungalow after all) but the trees are old and huge.. lots of nice shade on hot days.

The bad:

-Crappy air circulation. The style of interior layout just doesn't make getting fresh air moving that easy. You can always run the forced air fan or whatever though.
-Old bathrooms = tons of work. Ours looked old and ugly but functionally fine until I started work on it. Had to gut it to the studs to do a decent job. Ack.
-Same for kitchens. They just weren't designed for real cooks back then, so expect a huge amount of work to make it modern.
-General modernization gripes. There's no "big deals" beyond the planned kitchen/bathroom renos in our place, but the little things add up fast. Paint. Fixtures. Old-school wood doors that need to be painted modern white. Closets with old wood shelves that need to be ripped out since you can't keep then clean. The list is endless.

Overall: My old house, even though it's small, has more soul than any of the newbuilds I looked at. I like it. :)

[Drthorne]

a few more cons

-asbestos insulation
-some areas may prohibit you from making changes to the appearance of the house
-clay sewer pipes usually have tree roots growing in them, will have to clean them out every few years
-lead water pipes
-knob and tube wiring
-no ground in wiring
-stove may be hard wired (no plug)
-some appliances may not fit under/ between cabinets (ie fridge, stove)
-termit damage

[phatmanmd]

We take possession of our old bungalow (built in 1960) tomorrow night. After reading this thread, I'm lookin' forward to all the problems awaiting me.

No basement, no garage. We have a crawl space, a well for a fountain (but city water for the faucets), a septic tank, all electric heating. The only saving grace is the major renovation done in 1986 to upgrade the wiring of the entire house and upgrade the plumbing.

Should be fun....great times ahead.

whereabouts in toronto?

[Regin8r]

whereabouts in toronto?

East Side - Pickering

[phatmanmd]

East Side - Pickering

best of luck with the move and settling in - remember to post up if you encounter any problems! i'm always interested to hear what other homeowners go through....

[pogs]

a few more cons

-asbestos insulation
-some areas may prohibit you from making changes to the appearance of the house
-clay sewer pipes usually have tree roots growing in them, will have to clean them out every few years
-lead water pipes
-knob and tube wiring
-no ground in wiring
-stove may be hard wired (no plug)
-some appliances may not fit under/ between cabinets (ie fridge, stove)
-termit damage

how do you have the clay sewer pipes cleaned out? do you get a plumbing company to do it? Sounds like a major job.

[Dustbunny]

Here the city will do it (free) if any of the roots are on their side of the property line. From the basement drain cleanout, they stick a long hose down which has a whirling blade on it (sort of like a blender) and it shaves the roots away. After you run a bunch of water to flush them along and that's it. Otherwise a plumber can do it I think (maybe there are specialty companies as well). I had to have mine done and it took about 20 min. to stick a camera down to find the roots and maybe 20 min. to clear the pipe (and mine were on every joint right out to the main sewer pipe), no one even got dirty hands. It's easy when you have the equipment.