Ask me anything about HVAC heating air conditioning air quality control

[wasserware]

Yeah 100%, it fits perfectly dead on and I even took a measuring tape to it to be sure. For whatever reason, finding filters at that size around here is like finding a needle in a hay stack.

I will have to start calling around tomorrow to see what I can find. Thanks for the link.

If that place do not have it, just type in 22X22 media filter in google and tons of stores will carry it. Our american HVAC friends have lots of stuff at much better price than here and many of them ship to Canada.

[RobHatje]

Hi guys

I live in hamiton, i have a 1220 sq ft bungalo

My furnace is hung horizontal underneith my house in a crawl space type area, I briefly talked to sales rep and he told me my ac unit was going to cost more because i needed a special "coil"

As a first time home buyer, im very weary of things. Money is tight and ill probley wanna go on a financing plan what do you guys think this will cost me? if anyone knows a good company here in hamilton please feel free to give me some contacts

Thanks again:D

[sixer]

Hi guys

I live in hamiton, i have a 1220 sq ft bungalo

My furnace is hung horizontal underneith my house in a crawl space type area, I briefly talked to sales rep and he told me my ac unit was going to cost more because i needed a special "coil"

As a first time home buyer, im very weary of things. Money is tight and ill probley wanna go on a financing plan what do you guys think this will cost me? if anyone knows a good company here in hamilton please feel free to give me some contacts

Thanks again:D

Get two more quotes. You should always have three quotes.

[dp18]

I have had 2 contractors, one previosuly in the HVAC industry, look at this problem and neither can figure it out. Hopefully someone here can help!
I have a bungalow, about 1300 SQ feet, plus the basement.
we have 3 air returns on the main floor, one up by the celing in the bedroom, one by the floor in the living room and another by the floor in the hall.
The only one that seems to pull any air is the one in the living room. However it makes a VERY loud whistling sound. I know there will always be some noise but this is way beyond the normal noise it should make. I have tried putting different vents on but no luck.
One contractor who was in the HVAC industry in the past said it sounds like the return is suffocating for air but he was unsure of how to fix that problem. From what we can tell there is nothign stuck in the duct.
as well, the previous owners had a section of the return cut out in the furnace room with a peice of cardboard covering it. if you lift the cardboard, the noise would be gone, or at least almost to normal levels. We covered the hole with sheet metal since we were told it is very inefficient having it open like that.
so how do we get our other 2 returns to work and how do we eliminate this noise?
ANY thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
thanks.

[Mayoo]

I'll skip past the part that whatever it is you're saying makes no sense, and just point out you have a single stage furnace and an ACC6 is a single stage so nothing is a bottleneck yet for some reason you have a 2 stage stat for no reason that would clearly be wired as a single stage stat.

Sorry .. i didn't understand the phrase "up to 16 SEER". i think "up to" means if i upgrade the coil which goes in the furnace ? otherwise its 14 SEER ?

btw i installed the thermostat myself.. i know its over kill now :( ..

[ewright]

Is my Heat Pump AC working as good as it should?

OKay, yes...I got away for a long weekend in Southern Ontario's cottage country,
Back home at 3pm, inside temp 28, turned on AC, 10pm down to 26. Outside was 34 and dropped to 29. Our house is 2000sq ft. Is this sub-par?

This is an old York Heat Pump, clear of debris, fan moving, what should I check inside?
Is there a way to check coolant pressure, or recharge without calling a tech?

[dirtmover]

Is there such a thing as a controller that takes input from two (or more) thermostats (upper and ground floors) and runs the furnace fan based on the differential between the two. I don't wish to run the fan continuously and although I'm aware there are controllers that run the fan with a fixed duty cycle this seems a bit hit and miss. It would also be nice to have the AC control integrated with this so that it controls the average temperature to a setpoint rather than just the ground floor temperature.

Yes I realise that balancing the air output is part of it but we don't always need the AC on or it only runs during the day and we can end up with a large temperature differential between the the two floors.

[Tiberius]

Just posting to get an analysis here... seems like another poster has a similar issue to mine.

I had my a/c installed in December... I'm pretty sure my copper runs are 20-25 feet each. No pressure testing or charging was done due to it being winter.

I am now experiencing poor performance from the a/c. It "cools" the house, but isn't doing the job fully.

The last couple days, we have had the thermostat set to 78 - and it can barely maintain 80 in the house running nonstop all through the day!!

I'm assuming this is NOT acceptable performance. I had at least 5 quotes done and I believe they all indicated the same tonnage - so I would hope it was correct... which makes me believe it is the refrigerant level being low.

We noticed it running a LONG time on the initial hot days we had a month or so again and I called the company to ask them to come check it out. They failed to do so (told me a date they would come, but cancelled).

I am putting pressure on the company again to come out and check the pressures, but I really don't know what to look for myself to ensure I do have good pressures, etc. (I would like to see the readings myself, if possible). I guess having them confirm/fix the refrigerant is the first step before possibly having to re-size to a higher tonnage?? Do most companies do this switch for free when the installed product doesn't suit the home and needs to be altered??

Thanks.

[Tiberius]

Your post makes me cringe!

The fact that some return airs are not drawing air is a huge concern. The analysis that your furnace is starved for air is likely 100% correct if only 1 return air is functioning. The cardboard covered hole likely allowed for enough return air flow (when open) to prevent the "air starved" condition. However, there should NOT be a return air in the furnace room.

Your real issue is not the working return air, it is the 2 that are NOT working. You need to get those hooked up again. I have a feeling your basement is finished or else you would be able to easily trace the return ducts and investigate why the other 2 aren't working?

I had a similar experience but not as severe as yours seems to be (possibly more dangerous - but easier to quick fix):

I'm in a 1600+ sq ft bungalow and I discovered one of my main floor return airs wasn't sucking in air. The basement was finished by the prior owners before they sold (they were the first owners of the house for a year before I bought).

I discovered that they had disconnected the return air so they could finish the basement to look a bit better (they didn't have to drop the ceiling to run duct to that one return air). There still were 3 return airs in the bedrooms, but this other return air should NOT have been disconnected because the balance of the entire system could be impacted, etc.

Anyway... I figured out they had disconnected the return air INSIDE the furnace closet! This is completely against code and I believe illegal. It is a serious hazard. (the gas furnace and hot water tank are burning gas and the return air is sucking air from the small closet to starve them of air... brilliant!)

Luckily I noticed it and was able to 'fix' the issue and get the return air opening out of the furnace area.

NOTE: Another option / quick fix may be to attach a new return air run in the basement (it should be to a large room that is NOT the furnace room so the air isn't drawn from the furnace room - unless the entire basement is "open" and thus has a huge air volume). The return air in the basement isn't as functional as getting the 2 upstairs working - but would at least provide more return air and alleviate the current air starved condition. (use a large size duct run if possible too... either rectangular or try to go 8" round instead of 6" to allow for more air flow).

Getting the upstairs returns working should be the focus though.



I have had 2 contractors, one previosuly in the HVAC industry, look at this problem and neither can figure it out. Hopefully someone here can help!
I have a bungalow, about 1300 SQ feet, plus the basement.
we have 3 air returns on the main floor, one up by the celing in the bedroom, one by the floor in the living room and another by the floor in the hall.
The only one that seems to pull any air is the one in the living room. However it makes a VERY loud whistling sound. I know there will always be some noise but this is way beyond the normal noise it should make. I have tried putting different vents on but no luck.
One contractor who was in the HVAC industry in the past said it sounds like the return is suffocating for air but he was unsure of how to fix that problem. From what we can tell there is nothign stuck in the duct.
as well, the previous owners had a section of the return cut out in the furnace room with a peice of cardboard covering it. if you lift the cardboard, the noise would be gone, or at least almost to normal levels. We covered the hole with sheet metal since we were told it is very inefficient having it open like that.
so how do we get our other 2 returns to work and how do we eliminate this noise?
ANY thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
thanks.

[wasserware]

Is my Heat Pump AC working as good as it should?

OKay, yes...I got away for a long weekend in Southern Ontario's cottage country,
Back home at 3pm, inside temp 28, turned on AC, 10pm down to 26. Outside was 34 and dropped to 29. Our house is 2000sq ft. Is this sub-par?

This is an old York Heat Pump, clear of debris, fan moving, what should I check inside?
Is there a way to check coolant pressure, or recharge without calling a tech?

NO and this is something you should NEVER tinker with on your own because you do not have the technical expertise or knowledge. There are certain things you can do DIY and there are certain things you should NEVER DO. Would you perform surgery on yourself or your sick relatives/friends?

[wasserware]

Is there such a thing as a controller that takes input from two (or more) thermostats (upper and ground floors) and runs the furnace fan based on the differential between the two. I don't wish to run the fan continuously and although I'm aware there are controllers that run the fan with a fixed duty cycle this seems a bit hit and miss. It would also be nice to have the AC control integrated with this so that it controls the average temperature to a setpoint rather than just the ground floor temperature.

Yes I realise that balancing the air output is part of it but we don't always need the AC on or it only runs during the day and we can end up with a large temperature differential between the the two floors.

What you need is a zoning system. You can either get a pro and do a fully automated zoning system which consists of automatic dampners or a DIY like what I did - This few days proved to be an exceptionally good time to test out my new air conditioning in my house built in 2008 by Country Wide Homes Victoria Square. The first few days of experimentation didnt go too well and my fiance almost killed me as she ended up wearing a winter jacket in the house while on the first floor.

Here is a picture for reference:
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3230/mg1062.jpg

The OUT TEMP of 36.1 is the external ambient temperature of the second floor and it is amost 6 DEGREES higher than the external ambient temp of the first floor. You can see the external ambient temp on the right display above the 24 Degrees digit. This creates an exceptionally difficult situation to cool the second floor properly.

Most of our thermostat is mounted on the first floor and with a decent AC, it will easily cool down the first floor and shut off while leaving the second floor hot and unbearable. The only way to keep cooling the second floor in house houses is to crank down the thermostat to a really low temp. This is exactly the fatal error I committed.

I wanted to make the second floor to a comfortable 24 degrees but it is almost impossible because my first floor cools down really quickly. The only way to achieve that during the first time is to force the AC run continuously by reading the temperature from the second floor. After several hours, my first floor temp dipped to a bone chilling 14 Degrees which caused rage by my wife-to-be :twisted:

So I did some reading online and there are very expensive automatic zoning option that automatically diverts more airflow to a specific area that requires more cooling/heating.

I have 9 vents on the first floor and 9 on the second floor so I decided to close some of them to divert more air to the second floor while reducing the amount of air flow on the first floor. I read on a few other forums that the proper way to close the vent is to adjust the metal sheet inside the vent:
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/9277/mg1059.jpg
It is very easy to adjust it and just be careful not to cut yourself from the sharp metal/screws etc. This is actually the most effective way at stopping airflow compared to just closing the plastic vent covers.

After closing about 6 vents on the first floor and leave all the vents open on the second floor, I was finally able to maintain a stable temperature of 19.5 ~ 21 degrees on the first floor and a constant 24 degrees on the second floor no mater how long I run the AC:
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8315/mg1065.jpg

[nighthawk26]

Thanks for your replies nighthawk.

The trunk above the furnace is cold, with condensation on it, which is normal, is it not?

The filter was replaced about a month ago, and is free of debris.

If it is low on refrigerant, any idea on the price I'm looking to have it fixed?

Thanks

Anywhere from $150 say to who knows... $600 or maybe more. Depends where the leak is and how much has leaked. It's against the law for us to just refil without finding the leak now and depending where it is it can take a lot of time.

[nighthawk26]

Hi guys

I live in hamiton, i have a 1220 sq ft bungalo

My furnace is hung horizontal underneith my house in a crawl space type area, I briefly talked to sales rep and he told me my ac unit was going to cost more because i needed a special "coil"

As a first time home buyer, im very weary of things. Money is tight and ill probley wanna go on a financing plan what do you guys think this will cost me? if anyone knows a good company here in hamilton please feel free to give me some contacts

Thanks again:D

Try the local Aire One out there. I'm same company but in Kitchener. With about $400 down, I think you can get a payment in around the $30-$35 a month or so.

[RobHatje]

Try the local Aire One out there. I'm same company but in Kitchener. With about $400 down, I think you can get a payment in around the $30-$35 a month or so.

Thanks a bunch ill give them a call!

[srhcan]

American Standard A/C

Model: 4A7B4036A1000A (14.5 SEER, 3.0 ton)
Model: 4A7B3036D1000A (13 SEER, 3.0 ton)

Can somebody explain how to get information from these model numbers? for example if its an allegiance series or silver series and other information etc.

Thanks

[Spec]

Hi,

My 11yr old Lennox AC seems to have a leaky evaporator coil. The refrigerant is the old R22 so I'm told the coil replacement should include pumping out the R22 etc. I have been quoted 1150+Tax for the replacement. Is this reasonable? Am I better off replacing the whole thing including the condenser outside?

[shoppingkart]

American Standard A/C

Model: 4A7B4036A1000A (14.5 SEER, 3.0 ton)
Model: 4A7B3036D1000A (13 SEER, 3.0 ton)

Can somebody explain how to get information from these model numbers? for example if its an allegiance series or silver series and other information etc.

Thanks

Google 4A7A4036

[srhcan]

Google 4A7A4036
It tells me that it is a Allegiance 14 SEER Air Conditioner.

But my question was about 4A7B4036

[nighthawk26]

It tells me that it is a Allegiance 14 SEER Air Conditioner.

But my question was about 4A7B4036

ok so what does that tell you then? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Thats the unit. So what does it say about it?

[tommo4lyfe]

American Standard A/C

Model: 4A7B4036A1000A (14.5 SEER, 3.0 ton)
Model: 4A7B3036D1000A (13 SEER, 3.0 ton)

Can somebody explain how to get information from these model numbers? for example if its an allegiance series or silver series and other information etc.

Thanks

If you go to page 124, Limoges_Shopper explains what the model number means. 4 = refriderant R410a. A = Allegiance. 7B = manufacturer code. 3 = 13 Seer. (4 = 14 seer). 036 = 36,000 btu/hr or 3 tons. I don't know the rest of the letters and numbers, but I think it has something to do with the coil used?

[Visorboy]

If you go to page 124, Limoges_Shopper explains what the model number means. 4 = refriderant R410a. A = Allegiance. 7B = manufacturer code. 3 = 13 Seer. (4 = 14 seer). 036 = 36,000 btu/hr or 3 tons. I don't know the rest of the letters and numbers, but I think it has something to do with the coil used?

I think it's older models. More info. here: http://www.denverwinair.com/literature-as/technical/4A7M3_Quick_Reference_Guide.pdf

[akyyyy]

How is kenmore for a heat pump? I was told they are made by carrier. I got a quote for $6100 installed. My house is all prewired.

Thx

[wasserware]

How is kenmore for a heat pump? I was told they are made by carrier. I got a quote for $6100 installed. My house is all prewired.

Thx

Absolute garbage. Stay away from sears.

[nighthawk26]

How is kenmore for a heat pump? I was told they are made by carrier. I got a quote for $6100 installed. My house is all prewired.

Thx

More sears lies... those guys are all a joke, regardless of city. ICP makes Sears stuff. IE. Keeprite.

[akyyyy]

Really didn't know they'd lie.

Also got a quote for a trane 15i (think that's the model) for $8100 installed. Company is CR Martin. Whatdo u think ofthis cost? He said a carrier would be a bit less around $8k. Are these ok prices.

[SkunkWorks]

Just a quick one.

Someone moves into a house, A/C isn't working. They call HVAC.

Comes out and can't fix it. Its leaking or something is wrong with it. They cut the lines because they say legally they have to.

Throw it in the truck and take off..

Sound right? I think its BS but it happened, I don't know 100% of the story but thats the main part of it..:?:

thnx

[wasserware]

Just a quick one.

Someone moves into a house, A/C isn't working. They call HVAC.

Comes out and can't fix it. Its leaking or something is wrong with it. They cut the lines because they say legally they have to.

Throw it in the truck and take off..

Sound right? I think its BS but it happened, I don't know 100% of the story but thats the main part of it..:?:

thnx

??? That sounds more like theft to me?

[Limoges_shopper]

I recently received a couple of concerns from clients that their air conditioners are not maintaining the desired temperature in their home. Their concerns were that the equipment was either defective or undersized.

In both cases, the evidence pointed to correct operation, and a misunderstanding on air conditioner sizing.

So, to put some clarification on this, I will explain how sizing is done, and what the Ontario Building Code, and CSA instruct the HVAC field in proper sizing.

First, you have a specific condition in calculating your design load: 24 DEg C inside at design outdoor temperature. What this design temperature is, (from the HRAI manual) is "Outdoor design Temperature for cooling based on July temperatures when 2 1/2" % of the time the temperature will go above the listed temperature for short periods of time". For Ottawa, this temperature is 30 Deg C, and for Toronto, it is 31 Deg C. So when sizing the air conditioners, we are looking at a difference of temperature between the outside temperature (we'll use Toronto for this example - 31 Deg C.) and the indoor design temperature of 24 Dec C, thus 7 Deg C. So, what this is saying, is that the air conditioner when sized to meet 100% of the heat gain on the design day, will achieve a temperature difference of 7 Deg. C.

So what happens when it gets hotter outside? Well, you end up going outside the design performance of your air conditioner.
What I am hearing is people wondering why their air conditioner can't drop the temperature below 25 Deg C or even 16 Deg C on these hot days.

So if it's 35 Deg. C outside, and it's 26 Deg. C. inside, they feel that their system is not working as they expected it to. Remember that a typical summer does not have hot days where we get 35 Deg C for extended periods of time.
So lets look at what is actually happening performance-wise: if it's 35 Deg. C outside, and you're getting 26 Deg C inside, you have a temperature differential of 9 Deg. C. If your design condition was 7 Deg. C Differential at 31 Deg. C. outside If you increase the outdoor temperature by 4 Deg. C., you in fact reduce the air conditioner's performance since it is using hotter air to cool the refrigerant, so you would expect a reduction in this differential - maybe a degree. So if the air conditioner was sized to 100% of the heat gain of the building according to the Ontario Building code and CSA, you should expect a 6 Deg. C. differential in your home at 35 Deg. C outdoor temperature - thus 29 Deg. C. indoor temperature.
In both of these cases I saw the exact opposite happening: instead of decreasing the differential, I saw an increase in differential.
In the case illustrated above, we had an increase from 7 to 9 Deg. C. instead of a reduction from 7 to 6 Deg. C. So, if we are expecting 6 Deg. C differential, and we are getting 9 deg. C differential, then we are exceeding our expectations of performance by 50%.

I know it sounds weird that if you want 24 Deg. C. in your home and you're getting 26 Deg. C. that your air conditioner is actually performing better than expected!

Add this next bit of information: the Ontairo Building Code and CSA allow us to size an air conditioning system from 80% of heat load to 125% of heat load. This means we can undersize by 20% of the heat load and still be within the rules. One can easily understand why they allow 25% more, since air conditioners come in set capacities off the shelf, but why do they allow this 20% reduction? It has to do with dehumidification of the air. If you oversize an air conditioner too much, you will cool the air too quickly, and thus not remove enough humidity. Humid air needs to be much colder in order to be comfortable. This humidex index the weather station keeps bombarding us with for outdoor temperatures works for how it feels inside too.

So why don't we size them at 80% of heat gain, and just tell our customers that we're following the design guidelines? Because we know that would not have comfortable clients. And why don't we size them to take care of 35 Deg. C. days? Because the units would be 57% larger than the total heat gain of the building, and it would be oversized.

Now, I have simplified things here: no internal heat gain or solar gain, or temperature range has entered into these rough calculations: but the effect is still the same. If you go above the outside design temperature, your performance will go down.

So before hitting the panic button and calling the service technician over, look at what the actual outdoor temperature is compared to the indoor temperature.

Note on timing: some people say that "It's 8PM and the temperature dropped 3 degrees outside. Why isn't my air conditioner keeping up now?" That's because it takes time for the sun and hot air to heat up a building, and it also takes time for the reduction in solar gain and reduction in outdoor temperature to absorb that extra heat from the building. In other words: be patient when it gets cooler outside.

A note on operating air conditioners: Air conditioners are not televisions: you don't turn them on and off: you leave them on. This is because you need to cool not only the air inside, but the actual building itself. Also you need to remove humidity from the air and the building too: this takes time to get your air "conditioned". So if you turn it off, and allow the inside to get real hot and humid, it will take a long time to get it where you want it to be. So maybe don't turn off, but raise the temperature a couple degrees when you're not there.

I hope this has proved helpful to some. Feel free to ask questions and post your comments on this post.

Good luck! :)

[7-Endless]

Ok, now that I just got my new York YCJF installed and have been running it for a few days, I just wanted to run something by you guys.

I've noticed that during the day I the temp on the thermostat never seems to be able to drop below 24 degrees (I have it set to 22 degrees so the AC unit is running constantly). However, when I wake up in the morning and check the thermostat it is at 22 degrees.

Now, we do have a desk with a laptop running and a desk lamp (which is on only at night) that is pretty much right next to the thermostat so I will try moving this desk away later tonight to see if that makes a difference in case the thermostat is picking up the heat from these two sources. I'm also going to get one of those thermometer/humidity instrument clock displays to check the temps and humidity around the house.

But failing that, is there anything else I should look out for?

[Limoges_shopper]

Just a quick one.

Someone moves into a house, A/C isn't working. They call HVAC.

Comes out and can't fix it. Its leaking or something is wrong with it. They cut the lines because they say legally they have to.

Throw it in the truck and take off..

Sound right? I think its BS but it happened, I don't know 100% of the story but thats the main part of it..:?:

thnx


??? That sounds more like theft to me?

Sounds like theft to me too... Never heard of cutting the lines, and never heard of taking the unit away.

[peachgrinder]

Limoges shopper,

Great explanation. This is information that I was looking for, as I really don't understand much about the way A/C is supposed to work. Information is key!

Thanks again.

[Limoges_shopper]

Limoges shopper,

Great explanation. This is information that I was looking for, as I really don't understand much about the way A/C is supposed to work. Information is key!

Thanks again.

You're welcome! :)

[nighthawk26]

Really didn't know they'd lie.

Also got a quote for a trane 15i (think that's the model) for $8100 installed. Company is CR Martin. Whatdo u think ofthis cost? He said a carrier would be a bit less around $8k. Are these ok prices.

IE. you don't want to listen to me.

Do what you want, and I'll do what I tell every customer. When you buy that unit, look at the panel where it says ICP, Then look up ICP and who makes it. Or if you really wanna simplify it, pull a brochure for Carrier and pull one for Keeprite and you let me know which it looks like more.

Why would they lie? No idea... nice way to misrepresent the product and tell the CX what they wanna hear.

[Rockstead]

Limoges shopper,

Hi,

Based on your great detailed post above.

My House was constructed in 2007.

Although it was 34 degrees yesterday, the Heat Pump has been able to hold the temperature at 23 degrees, of course we close all the blinds and regardless of the temperature we never let it go higher than 25 which is where we normally keep it.

Based on what you said, does this mean my unit is way too oversized for my house since it is able to keep the house at 23 and could we have issues with it not removing enough humidity? My old house was never able to but I figured it was because of the efficiency of a new construction.

[7-Endless]

Thanks Limoges!

Your explanation definitely addresses my last post (your timing is uncanny) ;). That explains why only at night the indoor temp is finally able to drop to 22 degrees since the outdoor temp doesn't start to drop till late evening or early AM hours.

[7-Endless]

Limoges - actually, your post just raised another question then for me: is there any type of thermostat that will limit the "set" temperature to within this design differential? (i.e. thermostat with an outdoor sensor that will keep your "set" temp at outdoor temp less 7 degrees for example)

It would be really nice if there was something like this because since I had my temp set for 22 degrees - my AC unit kept running straight all day and night until it finally reached 22 in the middle of the night. Obviously, its a waste of energy to have the AC unit continuously running if it is not technically possible to get the temp down that low and having a thermostat with that type of capability would help avoid this scenario.

[kabza]

To get apprenticeship in refrigeration what do employers look for? I'm currently taking an electrical program at a community college and am considering doing the G3 course in september. Is G3 good enough or would it require a G2 license? They also have 2 year diploma programs in HVAC but I'm thinking it's not really necessary.

[Munchos]

To get apprenticeship in refrigeration what do employers look for? I'm currently taking an electrical program at a community college and am considering doing the G3 course in september. Is G3 good enough or would it require a G2 license? They also have 2 year diploma programs in HVAC but I'm thinking it's not really necessary.

Good luck getting an apprenticeship from anybody. Its almost impossible, not to mention trying to get into school for it. A G3 is pretty useless as a company can only have so many G3 licensees, and especially with no work experience whatsoever you will be hard pressed to find a decent gig. Get your G2, and take any job you can get just to get your feet wet. That is the hard part.

Luckily for me, I had a co-op that I could prove to my employer that I was smart enough to train, and had a good work ethic. Three years later, and I am still there working in service.

[klayman]

I've been skimming the forums and thought I'd put in a last ditch question... Our central A/C has quit on us today, it still runs but only produces slightly cool air (was producing very cold air yesterday just fine). Current house temperature is 30, ow.

Does anyone have a recommended company in the Oakville area? I'd like to have someone look at our unit (16 year old Goodman CK36-1B, in a 2850sqft house) and see if it is possible/worth to fix, and if not quote on a new unit for install ASAP.

Worth a shot, thanks!

[HondaScott]

Currently I have my central air set at 74 to start at 12pm until 10pm and 78 at night and early morning.

What does everyone set there a/c at during the morning/afternoon/night...Is 74 ok?

[fredder]

Currently I have my central air set at 74 to start at 12pm until 10pm and 78 at night and early morning.

What does everyone set there a/c at during the morning/afternoon/night...Is 74 ok?

Set at 75F from 1AM to 5PM, 70F from 5PM to 1AM

Thermostat is on main floor of 2 storey house, top floor is ~8F warmer than main floor, so setpoint of 70F in the evenings gives a tolerable 78F upstairs for bedtime (that and good quality ceiling fans in all bedrooms)

[cdnNick]

If we put our hand over the vent there isn't much airflow at all and it gets worse on the 2nd floor, it's cool but not cold considering the thermostat is set to 19C. Usually it's been fine but with this recent heatwave the temp in the house has been climbing everyday. The AC is running 24/7 for that last few days and yet it never gets below 23C and during the day it doesn't hold the temp it got to 25.6C today. We have the sun on the back of the house the entire afternoon and some of the morning, we have a walkout basement so all 3 floors get tons of sun.

Do this mean our unit is too small for the house or could the problem be the lack of airflow?

[Limoges_shopper]

Limoges shopper,

Hi,

Based on your great detailed post above.

My House was constructed in 2007.

Although it was 34 degrees yesterday, the Heat Pump has been able to hold the temperature at 23 degrees, of course we close all the blinds and regardless of the temperature we never let it go higher than 25 which is where we normally keep it.

Based on what you said, does this mean my unit is way too oversized for my house since it is able to keep the house at 23 and could we have issues with it not removing enough humidity? My old house was never able to but I figured it was because of the efficiency of a new construction.

Heat pumps fall under a different category: they are sized for heat load and thus will always have larger air conditioning capacity than is required (when in this climate - as you go further south, the heat loss decreases, and the heat gain increases, so you see a shifting from heating capacity to cooling capacity when sizing air-to-air heat pumps.

Remember that there are several factors that go into calculating the heat gain, and 2 of them are assumptions: air leakage and ventilation.
Air leakage is where we assume by the age, construction, number of stories and total surface area a number we call Air Leakage Multiplier. We multiply this number by the "convected heat gain" to get our air leakage (in BTU/HR) amount for any given zone. In other words, it's an educated guess at how much MORE heat your house will absorb due to air leaking through it. And this figure can be quite high.
Ventilation is any kind of fan, like a bathroom exhaust fan, kitchen exhaust, etc... So we assume that these are all operating at the same time at full capacity to get your total ventilation heat gain in btu/hr.
The reason I bring these up is that there are a lot of guesses to account for other things happening, such as exhaust fans running, or a hot windy day: all these affect the heat gain of the building. So when you have a heat wave above the design conditions, but your fans aren't running non-stop, and it's not a windy day, then the effect on your air conditioner is reduced, and where you would think you'd have a 6 degree differential between the indoor and outdoor temperatures, you in fact have a 9 degree one.

[Limoges_shopper]

If we put our hand over the vent there isn't much airflow at all and it gets worse on the 2nd floor, it's cool but not cold considering the thermostat is set to 19C. Usually it's been fine but with this recent heatwave the temp in the house has been climbing everyday. The AC is running 24/7 for that last few days and yet it never gets below 23C and during the day it doesn't hold the temp it got to 25.6C today. We have the sun on the back of the house the entire afternoon and some of the morning, we have a walkout basement so all 3 floors get tons of sun.

Do this mean our unit is too small for the house or could the problem be the lack of airflow?

I think you have frozen up your indoor evaporator coil.

But let's look at the possible reason why: you're asking for too cold! The heat gain guides tell us to use 24 Deg C as the indoor temperature during summer. It is unhealthy to have it that cool, in my opinion.

So, the first thing that concerns me is that you're asking the sir conditioner to do something it should normally normally do: keep a house at 19 Deg. C.
So could your recent demands on the system have created a freezing up of the coil? Maybe - I'm not a refrigeration technician, and I believe that one or two frequent these pages, so I will ask them to chime in.

Why do you need it that cool? Have you had your thermostat checked out, or compared it to a thermometer to ensure it's operating correctly?

Another point you raised, was that of the walk-out basement. That increases your home's heat gain compared to the homes with below-grade basements - and there is a possibility (although quite slim) that your unit is undersized.

Please read my posts above that talk about design conditions (hence performance requirements) not only approved by the building code, but dictated by them! They tell you the acceptable heat gain calculations to use, and they tell you the capacity of the equipment - 80% to 125% of calculated heat gain.
Your home increased in temperature to 25.6 - that's still a huge differential compared to the design for this area, which is 6 Deg. C. It was 34.5 yesterday, and you had 25.6, that's an 8.9 Deg C differential! Almost exceeding design requirements by 50%.

You need to re-evaluate your cooling setting decisions or you could kill your air conditioner.

[Limoges_shopper]

Set at 75F from 1AM to 5PM, 70F from 5PM to 1AM

Thermostat is on main floor of 2 storey house, top floor is ~8F warmer than main floor, so setpoint of 70F in the evenings gives a tolerable 78F upstairs for bedtime (that and good quality ceiling fans in all bedrooms)

It appears to me that you have inadequate and possibly poorly positioned return air grills on the top floor. That and possibly bad balancing of the air distribution ducts. You need someone that understands HVAC duct design, and how to cool the second floor to look at your place, and make recommendations. Once you get it balanced, plus your return air problem solved (if any), then you will have a much smaller differential between the floors.

Remember that you will ALWAYS have a differential, but with proper air circulation it can be controlled to an acceptable level.

[wasserware]

IE. you don't want to listen to me.

Do what you want, and I'll do what I tell every customer. When you buy that unit, look at the panel where it says ICP, Then look up ICP and who makes it. Or if you really wanna simplify it, pull a brochure for Carrier and pull one for Keeprite and you let me know which it looks like more.

Why would they lie? No idea... nice way to misrepresent the product and tell the CX what they wanna hear.

Exactly and yet some people try to flame me by dissuading other customers from buying crappy brands such as Goodman, amana, keeprite etc.

[7-Endless]

Please read my posts above that talk about design conditions (hence performance requirements) not only approved by the building code, but dictated by them! They tell you the acceptable heat gain calculations to use, and they tell you the capacity of the equipment - 80% to 125% of calculated heat gain.
Your home increased in temperature to 25.6 - that's still a huge differential compared to the design for this area, which is 6 Deg. C. It was 34.5 yesterday, and you had 25.6, that's an 8.9 Deg C differential! Almost exceeding design requirements by 50%.

You need to re-evaluate your cooling setting decisions or you could kill your air conditioner.

Going back to your design explanation for a moment - what options does a user have if they want to be able to keep their house at 18 or 19 C even in this type of heatwave? Do they just need to purchase a larger AC unit?

[janaka]

Going back to your design explanation for a moment - what options does a user have if they want to be able to keep their house at 18 or 19 C even in this type of heatwave? Do they just need to purchase a larger AC unit?

who in their right mind needs to keep a house at 18 or 19*C?! Thats 20+ degree differential in temps! :-0

[7-Endless]

It appears to me that you have inadequate and possibly poorly positioned return air grills on the top floor. That and possibly bad balancing of the air distribution ducts. You need someone that understands HVAC duct design, and how to cool the second floor to look at your place, and make recommendations. Once you get it balanced, plus your return air problem solved (if any), then you will have a much smaller differential between the floors.

Remember that you will ALWAYS have a differential, but with proper air circulation it can be controlled to an acceptable level.

I have a similar situation where my temp on the main floor is set to 24 C but second floor is at ~27-28 C. There is just one air return duct in the master bedroom near the ceiling (since the master takes up approx half of the top floor). If i put a tissue up to the air return vent it does seem to be taking air in since the tissue does get pulled towards it, but its not strong enough to hold the tissue on its own.

[7-Endless]

who in their right mind needs to keep a house at 18 or 19*C?! Thats 20+ degree differential in temps! :-0

I know a few people who do but I have no idea what brand and size of AC unit they have.

[leonk]

Here's a question I have for the AC professionals on this forum:

- 1500 square foot house (not including finished basement) about 95 years old
- new AC, 5 year 90%+ furnace
- HVAC duct in every room
- cold air return only on 1st floor and basement (none on 2nd floor)

When AC is on, and I have registers set correctly, I can get 22 degrees in basement, 24 on main floor, and it's 25-26 degrees on top floor (low insulation in attic, and little to no insulation in outside walls).

Is it going to be worth while to get a company in to get a cold air return installed on top floor, or is the 1-2 degrees C difference I see pretty standard and going to remain after the work is done?

Thanks.

[7-Endless]

Here's a question I have for the AC professionals on this forum:

- 1500 square foot house (not including finished basement) about 95 years old
- new AC, 5 year 90%+ furnace
- HVAC duct in every room
- cold air return only on 1st floor and basement (none on 2nd floor)

When AC is on, and I have registers set correctly, I can get 22 degrees in basement, 24 on main floor, and it's 25-26 degrees on top floor (low insulation in attic, and little to no insulation in outside walls).

Is it going to be worth while to get a company in to get a cold air return installed on top floor, or is the 1-2 degrees C difference I see pretty standard and going to remain after the work is done?

Thanks.


That seems pretty good if you are only getting a 1-2 degree differential between your main floor and top floor. I get about a 3-4 differential. :(

[Mayoo]

That seems pretty good if you are only getting a 1-2 degree differential between your main floor and top floor. I get about a 3-4 differential. :(

ya i have 3 Cold Air Returns in my second floor. one on the hall way, other two are in two of my rooms. Nothing on the Master bedroom. I keep my Master bedroom door open most of the time. My temp difference during past two days with my new AC is 1~2 Degree Celsius. My furnace fan is set to on 3hrs ( manually) everyday so to make the air moving.

I also use the fans on the bathrooms and one on the second floor laundry room often to remove the moisture.

My electricity bill with all these ( except AC ) is ~$50 ( gas appliances are furnace and water heater )

[Mayoo]

Exactly and yet some people try to flame me by dissuading other customers from buying crappy brands such as Goodman, amana, keeprite etc.

:D

I think the door to door sellers are reaching this thread too :D

[7-Endless]

ya i have 3 Cold Air Returns in my second floor. one on the hall way, other two are in two of my rooms. Nothing on the Master bedroom. I keep my Master bedroom door open most of the time. My temp difference during past two days with my new AC is 1~2 Degree Celsius. My furnace fan is set to on 3hrs ( manually) everyday so to make the air moving.

I also use the fans on the bathrooms and one on the second floor laundry room often to remove the moisture.

My electricity bill with all these ( except AC ) is ~$50 ( gas appliances are furnace and water heater )

I think part of the problem with my house is that on the second floor - there is basically a dead zone where the staircase meets the top floor landing - it's just open air with no vents or air returns at all in this area. I guess I have to decide whether to keep all bedroom doors shut so that the cooler air stays in the bedroom or leave them open and live with the warmer temps on the top floor.

[PhuFighter]

So given the heat, I've gone to look at some furnaces and AC. I got the following quote. The question is, is it worth the extra money for the G61V/XC14? Or should I just stick with the basic line? My home is a 1200 sq ft bungalow.

standard:
Heating: G43 - $2880, 90% efficient
Cooling: 13ACX - $2694, 13 SEER

Premium:
Heating: G61V - $4273, 95% efficient
Cooling: XC14 - $3623, 16.2 SEER

EDIT: these prices don't include things like filter, thermostat, humidifier, etc...all of which i am sure i will need..

[cdnNick]

I think you have frozen up your indoor evaporator coil.

But let's look at the possible reason why: you're asking for too cold! The heat gain guides tell us to use 24 Deg C as the indoor temperature during summer. It is unhealthy to have it that cool, in my opinion.

So, the first thing that concerns me is that you're asking the sir conditioner to do something it should normally normally do: keep a house at 19 Deg. C.
So could your recent demands on the system have created a freezing up of the coil? Maybe - I'm not a refrigeration technician, and I believe that one or two frequent these pages, so I will ask them to chime in.

Why do you need it that cool? Have you had your thermostat checked out, or compared it to a thermometer to ensure it's operating correctly?

Another point you raised, was that of the walk-out basement. That increases your home's heat gain compared to the homes with below-grade basements - and there is a possibility (although quite slim) that your unit is undersized.

Please read my posts above that talk about design conditions (hence performance requirements) not only approved by the building code, but dictated by them! They tell you the acceptable heat gain calculations to use, and they tell you the capacity of the equipment - 80% to 125% of calculated heat gain.
Your home increased in temperature to 25.6 - that's still a huge differential compared to the design for this area, which is 6 Deg. C. It was 34.5 yesterday, and you had 25.6, that's an 8.9 Deg C differential! Almost exceeding design requirements by 50%.

You need to re-evaluate your cooling setting decisions or you could kill your air conditioner.

Normally, I have the thermostat set to 21-22C but the temp was raising pretty fast in the house so I turned it down. I turned it back to 21 a few hours later. The problem is it 25.6 on the main floor and much warmer on the 2nd floor, I was reading to my son in his bedroom and I was sweating and I only had shorts on so to me that's not acceptable considering we have AC.

When I compare it to my mom or grandfather's house they don't have this issue at all their houses stay around the same temp all day. My mom's is a smaller home but my grandfathers is twice the size of ours and the AC unit is much older, not as good insulation, much larger windows and he doesn't close the curtains or blinds so I would expect my unit to perform similarly.

Maybe my assumptions are way off... I'll probably get someone in to look at the unit mainly because I think there is an airflow problem. Some vents barely have any air coming out of them and as far as I can tell they are fully open.

[shoppingkart]

[QUOTE=PhuFighter;11123205]So given the heat, I've gone to look at some furnaces and AC. I got the following quote. The question is, is it worth the extra money for the G61V/XC14? Or should I just stick with the basic line? My home is a 1200 sq ft bungalow.

standard:
Heating: G43 - $2880, 90% efficient
Cooling: 13ACX - $2694, 13 SEER

Premium:
Heating: G61V - $4273, 95% efficient
Cooling: XC14 - $3623, 16.2 SEER

EDIT: these prices don't include things like filter, thermostat, humidifier, etc...all of which i am sure i will need..[/QUOTE

The “standard” offering will not qualify for any government rebates. The “premium” line is more efficient and also quieter.

[kabza]

Good luck getting an apprenticeship from anybody. Its almost impossible, not to mention trying to get into school for it. A G3 is pretty useless as a company can only have so many G3 licensees, and especially with no work experience whatsoever you will be hard pressed to find a decent gig. Get your G2, and take any job you can get just to get your feet wet. That is the hard part.

Luckily for me, I had a co-op that I could prove to my employer that I was smart enough to train, and had a good work ethic. Three years later, and I am still there working in service.

Getting into school for the diploma program would be easy as cake, not sure if it's co-op or what the deal is. G3 and G2 courses are part-time. Obviously I'm well aware that I would start at the bottom of the payscale, as is the case in any apprenticeship. Finding the employer(sponsor) like you said is the real battle these days with this crap economy. Employers can be much more selective.

[Suzanna]

hi all

we've had our AC on nonstop for a few days now. I noticed that a lot of people are having the problem where the basement is freezing, the first floor is fine and the 2nd floor is too warm....is there any solution for this?

Also I noticed that in the basement there is moisture building up on the walls (it's unfinished) behind the insulation. Is that normal? I've been using a dehumidifier to dry it out...what else can I do?

Thanks!

[7-Endless]

hi all

we've had our AC on nonstop for a few days now. I noticed that a lot of people are having the problem where the basement is freezing, the first floor is fine and the 2nd floor is too warm....is there any solution for this?

Also I noticed that in the basement there is moisture building up on the walls (it's unfinished) behind the insulation. Is that normal? I've been using a dehumidifier to dry it out...what else can I do?

Thanks!

Try placing a high powered fan down there too but if your are seeing a lot of moisture building up then it might be time to get an expert to take a look - don't want to take a chance with possible mold or other issues.

[akyyyy]

Getting a carrier (heat pump)3 ton single stage installed for 7800$. Taxes and labour in. With thermostat. Is this a good deal.

Are the lennox heat pumps from costco as good as the carriers or comparable?

I've also been told I don't qualify for a grant. What are the reqs for this grant. I'm in a 3400 sq ft new home with new 96% efficient furnace. Also by carrier.

Thx

[NEMESIS_2008]

Does closing vents in unused rooms really save energy or does it make the motor work harder?

Is it better to keep the fan on or on auto? I read somewhere here that putting the fan on always is much better and only uses 30 watts of energy. Is this true?

[Pete_Coach]

Does closing vents in unused rooms really save energy or does it make the motor work harder?

Is it better to keep the fan on or on auto? I read somewhere here that putting the fan on always is much better and only uses 30 watts of energy. Is this true?
No energy is saved nor wasted. What it (closing vents in unused rooms) does is re-direct the air (heated or cooled) to other areas. Unused rooms need not be heated or cooled so by closing the vents (closing the dampers is more effective than the vents in the room) the air goes to the rooms where the vents are open.
personally, I leave the fan on all the time because it "evens" out the temperatures and there is a constant airflow throughout the house. Does that save energy? Probably not as the fan is on all the time and that uses energy (the amount is dependent on your fan motor and your specific furnace) but, in my opinion, it makes the house more comfortable.

[shoppingkart]

No energy is saved nor wasted. What it (closing vents in unused rooms) does is re-direct the air (heated or cooled) to other areas. Unused rooms need not be heated or cooled so by closing the vents (closing the dampers is more effective than the vents in the room) the air goes to the rooms where the vents are open.
personally, I leave the fan on all the time because it "evens" out the temperatures and there is a constant airflow throughout the house. Does that save energy? Probably not as the fan is on all the time and that uses energy (the amount is dependent on your fan motor and your specific furnace) but, in my opinion, it makes the house more comfortable.

With a variable speed ECM furnace your energy consumption will increase when closing floor vents. Increasing static pressure will cause the blower to work harder. Running the fan 24/7 is ok, but make sure you have tstat that can turn the fan off for 5min after your A/C stopped, so there is time for the coil to dry up and not blowing humid air back in the house.

[akyyyy]

No energy is saved nor wasted. What it (closing vents in unused rooms) does is re-direct the air (heated or cooled) to other areas. Unused rooms need not be heated or cooled so by closing the vents (closing the dampers is more effective than the vents in the room) the air goes to the rooms where the vents are open.
personally, I leave the fan on all the time because it "evens" out the temperatures and there is a constant airflow throughout the house. Does that save energy? Probably not as the fan is on all the time and that uses energy (the amount is dependent on your fan motor and your specific furnace) but, in my opinion, it makes the house more comfortable.

so if i close 3 of my 4 bedrooms, wouldn't that make my master bedroom colder/hotter since the thermostat is on the mail floor?

the main floor will have to cool/heat to tthe set temperature on the thermostat, but the upper floor (mstr bed) will get an access of heat/cold air, no?

[nighthawk26]

So given the heat, I've gone to look at some furnaces and AC. I got the following quote. The question is, is it worth the extra money for the G61V/XC14? Or should I just stick with the basic line? My home is a 1200 sq ft bungalow.

standard:
Heating: G43 - $2880, 90% efficient
Cooling: 13ACX - $2694, 13 SEER

Premium:
Heating: G61V - $4273, 95% efficient
Cooling: XC14 - $3623, 16.2 SEER

EDIT: these prices don't include things like filter, thermostat, humidifier, etc...all of which i am sure i will need..

Absolutly it is. Two stage Variable speed furnace and an AC thats actualyl quiet not screaming and 14.5 SEER almost 17 if matched with that furnace where only max 15 SEER on the other setup. The G43 is a CHEAP CHEAP builder grade unit. The DC motor in that furnace will help big time as well with bills and comfort.

You also dont mention if you already have AC. If you do, for sure get the eco energy audit done and open up a pile of rebates that will brige the gap on your pricing. IE. $790 alone for the furnace, plus $250 if you already have AC. Wouldn't get those with the cheaper setup. Also up to $550 from the OPA as well.

[nighthawk26]

Getting a carrier (heat pump)3 ton single stage installed for 7800$. Taxes and labour in. With thermostat. Is this a good deal.

Are the lennox heat pumps from costco as good as the carriers or comparable?

I've also been told I don't qualify for a grant. What are the reqs for this grant. I'm in a 3400 sq ft new home with new 96% efficient furnace. Also by carrier.

Thx

your in BC. IF you never did the audit before April 1st, there are no grants for you out there from eco energy.

[Pete_Coach]

With a variable speed ECM furnace your energy consumption will increase when closing floor vents. Increasing static pressure will cause the blower to work harder. Running the fan 24/7 is ok, but make sure you have tstat that can turn the fan off for 5min after your A/C stopped, so there is time for the coil to dry up and not blowing humid air back in the house.
Unless you block off all airflow at the main plenum and create an enormous back pressure, your motor will work just fine. All you are doing is re-directing air flow in the ducting, increasing airflow to the open ducts, not plugging up your blower motor.
The other stuff you are saying makes no sense to me in any way, on any level. You have some theory running rampant, I think.

[shoppingkart]

Unless you block off all airflow at the main plenum and create an enormous back pressure, your motor will work just fine. All you are doing is re-directing air flow in the ducting, increasing airflow to the open ducts, not plugging up your blower motor.
The other stuff you are saying makes no sense to me in any way, on any level. You have some theory running rampant, I think.

With all due respect, if you understood how the variable speed heating/cooling system works my “rampant running theory” would make sense to you.

[Pete_Coach]

With all due respect, if you understood how the variable speed heating/cooling system works my “rampant running theory” would make sense to you.
Understanding fluid dynamics (which includes air flow) is not an issue with me at all as I deal with it in my daily business. Blowing humidity back in the room makes no sense either. Your theory makes no sense but hey, it's your theory. Thank you for your respect though.

[badkarma]

Purchased my 2750sqft house last year in May and replaced the furnace with a Lennox G61V before we moved in (had the eco-rebate inspection done previous to install). House is 50+yrs old and is pretty drafty. While I never really had a need for aircon since it's only really hot for a few days out of the year, and window fans made the really hot days tolerable, my first child is coming any day now and the wife and baby will be home all day for awhile. . Looking at my terasen gas bill over the last year, I spent about $1200 for my furnace and hot water tank.

1. how much savings I can expect with something like a Lennox XP15 2.5ton heat pump? Including the electrical cost to run the HP?
2. The closest exterior wall to my furnace is completely paved with a sidewalk. How far can the the HP be installed from the furnace?
3. Any brand of heat pump can work with any furnace right? Are there any reasons to stay with the same brand?
4. Trying to read the rebates I'm eligible for, the federal rebate is $500, but the BC one says $1450, is that on TOP of the $1130 I'm going to get for my furnace? I haven't scheduled the 2nd inspection yet.

Thanks in advance.

[akyyyy]

got my heat pump installed today. it's the carrier 25hpa536 with carrier Edge thermostat.

any suggestion on setting up the "heat" and "cool" settings. still trying to figure out what feels right. i was told by the installer not to put them within 3 degrees of each other because the heat pump will be fighting to heat/cool non stop.

he set it to Heat 20 Cool 24 ... since there will be no heating because it's summer time, i guess i can leave the heat portion alone and mess around with the cool.

also mentioned that i should shut any dampers because there could be freezing if the air has no where to go. my bsmt (renters) were feeling cold last wk before the heatpump, wondering how cold it'll get for them now. can i recommend for them to shut dampers?

[Limoges_shopper]

got my heat pump installed today. it's the carrier 25hpa536 with carrier Edge thermostat.

any suggestion on setting up the "heat" and "cool" settings. still trying to figure out what feels right. i was told by the installer not to put them within 3 degrees of each other because the heat pump will be fighting to heat/cool non stop.

he set it to Heat 20 Cool 24 ... since there will be no heating because it's summer time, i guess i can leave the heat portion alone and mess around with the cool.

also mentioned that i should shut any dampers because there could be freezing if the air has no where to go. my bsmt (renters) were feeling cold last wk before the heatpump, wondering how cold it'll get for them now. can i recommend for them to shut dampers?

You can save a lot of headaches by not putting your thermostat in the "auto" mode. Do like the cavemen did, and turn on the heat and cool functions manually. Do you really need your thermostat to determine if you need heating or air conditioning on any given day? Have you ever operated both heating and cooling in the same day?

@0 deg C heating and 24 DEg C cooling are good settings. But you must never let a thermostat tell you what you need to be at: let your body do that. I get clients asking me why their system isn't as comfortable at 21 Deg C as the other one: maybe they are out of calibration? So go by how you feel, and use those numbers as maximums (for heating) and minimums (for cooling).

Good luck!

[akyyyy]

You can save a lot of headaches by not putting your thermostat in the "auto" mode. Do like the cavemen did, and turn on the heat and cool functions manually. Do you really need your thermostat to determine if you need heating or air conditioning on any given day? Have you ever operated both heating and cooling in the same day?

@0 deg C heating and 24 DEg C cooling are good settings. But you must never let a thermostat tell you what you need to be at: let your body do that. I get clients asking me why their system isn't as comfortable at 21 Deg C as the other one: maybe they are out of calibration? So go by how you feel, and use those numbers as maximums (for heating) and minimums (for cooling).

Good luck!

Ok I've set the thermostat from heat/cool to just cool, and 24deg. It's a cool day today don't think it'll get too hot.

Do u not recommend setting the daily schedule as well ? (for wake morning afternoon evening and sleep?)

[Limoges_shopper]

With a variable speed ECM furnace your energy consumption will increase when closing floor vents. Increasing static pressure will cause the blower to work harder. Running the fan 24/7 is ok, but make sure you have tstat that can turn the fan off for 5min after your A/C stopped, so there is time for the coil to dry up and not blowing humid air back in the house.


No energy is saved nor wasted. What it (closing vents in unused rooms) does is re-direct the air (heated or cooled) to other areas. Unused rooms need not be heated or cooled so by closing the vents (closing the dampers is more effective than the vents in the room) the air goes to the rooms where the vents are open.
personally, I leave the fan on all the time because it "evens" out the temperatures and there is a constant airflow throughout the house. Does that save energy? Probably not as the fan is on all the time and that uses energy (the amount is dependent on your fan motor and your specific furnace) but, in my opinion, it makes the house more comfortable.


so if i close 3 of my 4 bedrooms, wouldn't that make my master bedroom colder/hotter since the thermostat is on the mail floor?

the main floor will have to cool/heat to tthe set temperature on the thermostat, but the upper floor (mstr bed) will get an access of heat/cold air, no?


Unless you block off all airflow at the main plenum and create an enormous back pressure, your motor will work just fine. All you are doing is re-directing air flow in the ducting, increasing airflow to the open ducts, not plugging up your blower motor.
The other stuff you are saying makes no sense to me in any way, on any level. You have some theory running rampant, I think.


With all due respect, if you understood how the variable speed heating/cooling system works my “rampant running theory” would make sense to you.


Understanding fluid dynamics (which includes air flow) is not an issue with me at all as I deal with it in my daily business. Blowing humidity back in the room makes no sense either. Your theory makes no sense but hey, it's your theory. Thank you for your respect though.

I thought I'd jump in, and stir the pot a bit:

Pete: most variable speed blowers will work on a current draw control where they estimate the blower's efficiency by the amount of current it requires to achieve a certain frequency in the blower. This means, as the friction of the system increases, it automatically compensates for this by increasing the power (frequency, in effect) sent to the blower motor.
Now with standard systems, and with fluid dynamics, the opposite is true: when you increase the friction, the motor actually spins at a slower rate (lower RPM), and thus draws less power.
With A/C driven blowers, I'm not sure if this holds true, since air is compressible. So I haven't looked at power draws with increased friction.

shoppingkart: I never knew about the off time for the thermostat. I look at the programming, and I don't see it. That aside, the humidity drips off the evaporator coils, and drains away, with or without the blower in operation, right? And since whatever evaporates into the air is inside the ducts anyway, it's a moot point. I agree that you would have more humidity drawn off the coil if the blower is in operation, but I have never heard of it being an issue. That said, I am always grateful to learn, and will be looking into this shortly.

In closing: You will save a bit of energy because you will have increased air flow through the rest of the ducts, and thus will satisfy the thermostat sooner, unless you balance your system to divert more of that "extra" airflow to the upper bedroom.

So if it is unoccupied, you don't need to condition it AS MUCH (some air leakage into the zone is good, and is required in heating season!).

[Limoges_shopper]

Ok I've set the thermostat from heat/cool to just cool, and 24deg. It's a cool day today don't think it'll get too hot.

Do u not recommend setting the daily schedule as well ? (for wake morning afternoon evening and sleep?)

It depends on how long your unoccupied periods are. Remember that you want it nice and cool in bed too, especially if you share a bed! and I'm not talking about bedtime activities, just the radiating heat off your bodies. It's nice to share in the Winter, but not so much in the Summer. And if anyone is dealing with menopause or pregnancy, you know what I'm talking about! :D

So if you're unoccupied during the day, I would raise it 2 deg C (max) above what your normal temperature is. If you let it rise too high, it will take too long to reduce it again on really hot days (when you want it to be cool when you come home!).

:)

[janaka]

It depends on how long your unoccupied periods are. Remember that you want it nice and cool in bed too, especially if you share a bed! and I'm not talking about bedtime activities, just the radiating heat off your bodies. It's nice to share in the Winter, but not so much in the Summer. And if anyone is dealing with menopause or pregnancy, you know what I'm talking about! :D

So if you're unoccupied during the day, I would raise it 2 deg C (max) above what your normal temperature is. If you let it rise too high, it will take too long to reduce it again on really hot days (when you want it to be cool when you come home!).

:)
I'll echo this comment about a 2 degree window for the "set back" programs. Even the government websites state 2-3* max variance between temps in order to save utility. This was a good point as many people turn systems off or way down (up) when away from home then crank the system back when they return.

[Limoges_shopper]

I'll echo this comment about a 2 degree window for the "set back" programs. Even the government websites state 2-3* max variance between temps in order to save utility. This was a good point as many people turn systems off or way down (up) when away from home then crank the system back when they return.

And when they do this, there is a huge spike on the electrical demand causing all sorts of issues.

[thegood]

We are looking at getting a new furnace and air conditioning unit and would just like some feedback from the quotes we got. The house is about 2500 sq feet in the GTA area.

Quote 1:
2.5 ton carrier A/C with 2 stage carrier furnace.
Unfortunately this one did not leave anything in writting and didn't give us the model numbers.
$7500 less rebates

Quote 2:
Amana 2.5 ton ssx140301 A/C unit
Amana 2 stage furnace GMVC950704cx
5 year parts and labour
$8946 less rebates

Quote 3:
York TCGF30 A/C 2.5 tons
york YP9C080 modulating furnace
10 years parts and labour from manufacturer
$8588 less rebates

I'm pretty sure this is a no brainer with quote #3 but would like some feedback.

Thanks in advance.

[nighthawk26]

We are looking at getting a new furnace and air conditioning unit and would just like some feedback from the quotes we got. The house is about 2500 sq feet in the GTA area.

Quote 1:
2.5 ton carrier A/C with 2 stage carrier furnace.
Unfortunately this one did not leave anything in writting and didn't give us the model numbers.
$7500 less rebates

Quote 2:
Amana 2.5 ton ssx140301 A/C unit
Amana 2 stage furnace GMVC950704cx
5 year parts and labour
$8946 less rebates

Quote 3:
York TCGF30 A/C 2.5 tons
york YP9C080 modulating furnace
10 years parts and labour from manufacturer
$8588 less rebates

I'm pretty sure this is a no brainer with quote #3 but would like some feedback.

Thanks in advance.

The first quote as I'm sure you realize is pretty useless given the info provided. Thats a hell of a lot of money for Amana, and the York is a modulating furnace and if the warranty is from the manufacturer thats much better. Of those 3 (without knowing the carrier) the York is your best bet from what you've told us.

[j8lam]

For the people with A/C and not using a separate dehumidifier, what is the humidity level in your house on humid days? I have an HRV which runs about 40% of the day and I know it's bringing humid air into the house, but I'm surprised that even when my A/C runs for a long period, the humidity on the main floor never goes below 50%.
Now I'm thinking of getting a separate dehumidifier so I can try to bring the humidity down to around 45%.

I also asked this earlier, but it wasn't answered. Should I be turning off the HRV on high smog days? I'm not sure if bringing in polluted "fresh air" that goes through the HRV filter and my media filter would be better than having stale indoor air or not.

[wasserware]

For the people with A/C and not using a separate dehumidifier, what is the humidity level in your house on humid days? I have an HRV which runs about 40% of the day and I know it's bringing humid air into the house, but I'm surprised that even when my A/C runs for a long period, the humidity on the main floor never goes below 50%.
Now I'm thinking of getting a separate dehumidifier so I can try to bring the humidity down to around 45%.

I also asked this earlier, but it wasn't answered. Should I be turning off the HRV on high smog days? I'm not sure if bringing in polluted "fresh air" that goes through the HRV filter and my media filter would be better than having stale indoor air or not.

When the AC is on, humidity is always below 50% on both floors, it sometimes get as low as 35%. I though you are not suppose to run HRV in the summer??? If you want all season ventilation then you'll need ERV??

[j8lam]

When the AC is on, humidity is always below 50% on both floors, it sometimes get as low as 35%. I though you are not suppose to run HRV in the summer??? If you want all season ventilation then you'll need ERV??

I was originally going to get an ERV, but most HVAC people I spoke with as well as product literature seemed to lean towards HRV for GTA. ERV was favoured more in the southern States and the Pacific coast. It was really tough to find a definitive answer. With ERV, I had less choice on brands because some of them don't even have a defrost cycle for use in the winter. HRVs also seemed to be more efficient. I also liked the fact that HRVs had a lifetime warranty on the core compared with 5 years for most ERVs.

I also considered getting a Lifebreath TRV (has both ERV and HRV core), but couldn't justify the extra cost and the thing is HUGE! Now looking back, I probably should've bought a VanEE with an exchangeable core. You're supposed to wash the filters twice a year and the core once anyways, so I probably could've bought both cores and just use the ERV for 3 months during the summer.

[HondaScott]

Does putting the fan from auto to on actually work? What happens when the central air conditioner turns on and the fan is on at the same time? Does it take away from the colder air the central air is blowing out?

In addition does anyone know how much it cost approx per month to have central air on 73 and 75 in the late hours of the night? How about fan on costs?

Thanks :)

[janaka]

Does putting the fan from auto to on actually work? What happens when the central air conditioner turns on and the fan is on at the same time? Does it take away from the colder air the central air is blowing out?

In addition does anyone know how much it cost approx per month to have central air on 73 and 75 in the late hours of the night? How about fan on costs?

Thanks :)

I can say in my house the difference is HUGE between using the fan on auto and on.

Just so you know the fan on the furnace is what moves the air for the AC, so there aren't two fans as it sounds like you think there are. What having the fan on does is circulate the air within the home all the time then when the AC kicks on the conditioned (cold) air is put directly into the moving air stream making it more efficient at creating more even temperatures throughout the home.

No one can really give cost to run an ac at any temps as there are WAY too many variables such as:
Starting indoor air temp
Out door air temp
humidity level
size of home
hieght of ceilings
SEER of AC
size of ac (and is it appropriate for the home)
furnace blower (enough CFM per ton? AC powered? DC? Belt driven?)
Insulation values in walls/attic
Window age and R value
living space over uninsulated space
Build on slab?
# of people living in the house
etc etc etc

[Limoges_shopper]

Does putting the fan from auto to on actually work? What happens when the central air conditioner turns on and the fan is on at the same time? Does it take away from the colder air the central air is blowing out?

In addition does anyone know how much it cost approx per month to have central air on 73 and 75 in the late hours of the night? How about fan on costs?

Thanks :)
Fan on ON works - makes fan stay on..... I assume you have a non-variable speed (ECM) blower.

When central air kicks in, air becomes colder. Central air doesn't blow out cold air - it cools the air being circulated by the blower, so it doesn't take away from anything.

No idea about costs - way too many variables.

[tojo]

I recently had the Carrier 24ACC630 2.5T installed. My house is approx. 2300 sq ft. My question for those who have this AC (or anyone who knows about this unit)....does your unit run almost continuously? For example, it was a high of 27-28 C today in Mississauga, humidity of 60%. I had the thermostat set at 25C, which is not low at all, compared to the ambient conditions, yet the compressor was on about 80-90% of the time to maintain this temperature. When I set the temp lower, say from 25 to 23C, it takes about 1.5 to 2 hours to lower it, but can maintain it.

Because I plan to upgrade my HVAC system in stages, it is temporarily matched with an older Heil furnace, which I plan to upgrade to a Carrier one once the funds are available - but since the old AC crapped out, there was no choice but to do the AC first.

I will follow-up with the installer ASAP, but would like your "unbiased" thoughts first. Thanks in advance.

[junglee]

I`ve got Detached backsplit house with a finished basement which has a vent and a cold air return. I have a Goodman High Efficiency furnace which vents outside, a Goodman air conditioner and a HOneywell IAQ that handles dehumidificaiton.

I also have a crawlspace which is 4.5 ft high. THe crawl space has a slated door enterance from the basement. Currently the crawlspace has no ventilation. Any air movement that occurs is from the slated doors. The RH in the finished basement is around 65-70%.

I am noticing moisture problems (condensation) in the crawlspace in the recent heat. Can I simply cut open an opening in the return air duct that runs through the crawlspace to get some movement or am I better off running a dehumidifier down there

[jhyang23]

In my basement, I have some romex wires and vinyl duct for the bathroom fan in direct contact with the heating duct.
Should these be separated from the heating duct?

Thanks.

[Rehan]

I recently finished my basement, and now the furnace is in a small enclosed (and unfinished) area that now has no air supply besides the door to the area. For now we are just leaving the furnace room door open, but obviously I would like to be able to leave it closed more often than not. The home is 10 years old and our high efficiency furnace has only one pipe connected to the outside, which is the exhaust... the combustion air intake has no pipe to get fresh air from the outside.

So I'd like to get that fresh air intake pipe installed... How difficult is that work? DIY worthy, or should I just hire an HVAC company to do it?

[wasserware]

I recently finished my basement, and now the furnace is in a small enclosed (and unfinished) area that now has no air supply besides the door to the area. For now we are just leaving the furnace room door open, but obviously I would like to be able to leave it closed more often than not. The home is 10 years old and our high efficiency furnace has only one pipe connected to the outside, which is the exhaust... the combustion air intake has no pipe to get fresh air from the outside.

So I'd like to get that fresh air intake pipe installed... How difficult is that work? DIY worthy, or should I just hire an HVAC company to do it?

Definitely not DIY worthy because from the manuals and tech papers I've been reading, there are limitations on the lengths and number of bends for piping in order to keep the pressure and airflow requirements to maintain combustion.

[nighthawk26]

I recently finished my basement, and now the furnace is in a small enclosed (and unfinished) area that now has no air supply besides the door to the area. For now we are just leaving the furnace room door open, but obviously I would like to be able to leave it closed more often than not. The home is 10 years old and our high efficiency furnace has only one pipe connected to the outside, which is the exhaust... the combustion air intake has no pipe to get fresh air from the outside.

So I'd like to get that fresh air intake pipe installed... How difficult is that work? DIY worthy, or should I just hire an HVAC company to do it?

This is a pretty big no no. If your hot water tank in there too? To code you have to have access Air. I FORGET the exact number but it's a certain amount of sq inces per 1000BTU. If you have a PV tank, even a bigger issue to consider. Thats just the room, regardless of the pipe situation.

There will be paramaters that you need to follow so unless you have all the install manuals and the proper stills, I would leave it to an HVAC expert.

[Rehan]

Just to be clear, I realize that I need the fresh air intake installed...even without code, it's just common sense. I was wondering more about whether it's a job for an HVAC specialist or for a general contractor (in which case I'd consider doing it myself, depending on the complexity). Looks like HVAC guy is the way to go, though. Thanks. :)

[akyyyy]

hi, thanks for your help thus far. im noticing when my heat pump is running in cool mode, it's still very hot on the upper floor (3rd, bedrooms) and its cool on the lowest (bsmt, 1st floor) floor.

i was told not to shut lower dampers because they can freeze, how can i correct this problem?

thx

[nighthawk26]

Just to be clear, I realize that I need the fresh air intake installed...even without code, it's just common sense. I was wondering more about whether it's a job for an HVAC specialist or for a general contractor (in which case I'd consider doing it, depending on the complexity). Looks like HVAC guy is the way to go, though. Thanks. :)

I realize too I wasn't super clear. Even if you have an intake pipe added, you would still need to have proper venting into that room due to a hot water tank. By "venting" I mean a hole cut out in the wall to an open space.

[Rehan]

I realize too I wasn't super clear. Even if you have an intake pipe added, you would still need to have proper venting into that room due to a hot water tank. By "venting" I mean a hole cut out in the wall to an open space. Ack. I wasn't even thinking about the combustion for the water heater (which is a power vent model). But yeah, I'll need the venting into the furnace room for that. So much for my supposed common sense. Thanks for clarifying your comment. There goes my wife's peace and quiet time in her sewing studio in the basement.... :razz:

[Munchos]

Ack. I wasn't even thinking about the combustion for the water heater (which is a power vent model). But yeah, I'll need the venting into the furnace room for that. So much for my supposed common sense. Thanks for clarifying your comment. There goes my wife's peace and quiet time in her sewing studio in the basement.... :razz:

One square inch per 1000 btu's minimum for code. Just cut two holes out in the drywall, - one high, one low, and cover them with cold air grills. I can't imagine it would be that noisy. Can never have too much combustion air in a room.

[starryiid1]

We recently had a new Carrier furnace and a/c installed and have noticed that over the last couple of months the filter usage percentage always appears to be off. We called the installer and he had orginally stated that after the original install it will show a high percentage and that after a couple of weeks we should remove the filter vacumm it off and reset the controller to zero. We did all this and now a couple of months later it is again reading 60 percent used. Any ideas on if this is normal or what we should do? Thanks

[Limoges_shopper]

In my basement, I have some romex wires and vinyl duct for the bathroom fan in direct contact with the heating duct.
Should these be separated from the heating duct?

Thanks.

Yes and no: the Romex wire should not be resting on a heating duct - since there is a chance or erosion (rubbing) that could break the plastic jacket. It's not very thick (click here (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100684025&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&PID=603315&cm_mmc=CJ-_-pricegrabber-_-D27X-_-100684025&cpncode=22-70481431-2&AID=10368321&cj=true&srccode=cii_5784816)). I would just tack it to the joist so it doesn't touch it, or put some fibreglass insulation to protect it. But if you really want to know what to do, ask a licensed electrician, and have him or her inspect it.

[Limoges_shopper]

hi, thanks for your help thus far. im noticing when my heat pump is running in cool mode, it's still very hot on the upper floor (3rd, bedrooms) and its cool on the lowest (bsmt, 1st floor) floor.

i was told not to shut lower dampers because they can freeze, how can i correct this problem?

thx
Many things could be causing this problem, and closing the vents in the basement could help.
Closing vents in basement doesn't help prevent freezing!!!! they prevent the basement from being uncomfortably cool, but not from freezing... the do allow more pressure to be distributed through the other floors, and will result in more cold air going upstairs.

There are other things you can do to such as run you fan in between cooling cycles (fan in "on" position instead of "auto"). This results in more air being circulated, and thus less hot air upstairs.

[Limoges_shopper]

One square inch per 1000 btu's minimum for code. Just cut two holes out in the drywall, - one high, one low, and cover them with cold air grills. I can't imagine it would be that noisy. Can never have too much combustion air in a room.

Thanks Munchos - it's nice to have a licensed technician give us the straight dope. :)

[Limoges_shopper]

We recently had a new Carrier furnace and a/c installed and have noticed that over the last couple of months the filter usage percentage always appears to be off. We called the installer and he had orginally stated that after the original install it will show a high percentage and that after a couple of weeks we should remove the filter vacuum it off and reset the controller to zero. We did all this and now a couple of months later it is again reading 60 percent used. Any ideas on if this is normal or what we should do? Thanks
You could be having issues with dirty ducts: when was the last time they were cleaned?

[starryiid1]

You could be having issues with dirty ducts: when was the last time they were cleaned?

To be honest they might have never been. We have only been here 3 years. We were looking into the idea once but the general feedback was that cleaning the ducts does not make much of a difference in a house. Whe I have looked at the filter it does not appear that dirty but it obviously is sending an odd reading to the controller

[Limoges_shopper]

To be honest they might have never been. We have only been here 3 years. We were looking into the idea once but the general feedback was that cleaning the ducts does not make much of a difference in a house. Whe I have looked at the filter it does not appear that dirty but it obviously is sending an odd reading to the controller

that consensus is ludicrous!!! The return air ducts load up with crap, and then the air coming back to your furnace is constantly dirty: you need to clean the ducts every few years! If the air in your house isn't dirty but your filter is, then the dirt's coming from the return air ducts. That's what my crystal ball says. :D

Now what kind of filter is it? how does it communicate with your thermostat?

[badkarma]

Purchased my 2750sqft house last year in May and replaced the furnace with a Lennox G61V before we moved in (had the eco-rebate inspection done previous to install). House is 50+yrs old and is pretty drafty. While I never really had a need for aircon since it's only really hot for a few days out of the year, and window fans made the really hot days tolerable, my first child is coming any day now and the wife and baby will be home all day for awhile. . Looking at my terasen gas bill over the last year, I spent about $1200 for my furnace and hot water tank.

1. how much savings I can expect with something like a Lennox XP15 2.5ton heat pump? Including the electrical cost to run the HP?
2. The closest exterior wall to my furnace is completely paved with a sidewalk. How far can the the HP be installed from the furnace?
3. Any brand of heat pump can work with any furnace right? Are there any reasons to stay with the same brand?
4. Trying to read the rebates I'm eligible for, the federal rebate is $500, but the BC one says $1450, is that on TOP of the $1130 I'm going to get for my furnace? I haven't scheduled the 2nd inspection yet.

Thanks in advance.

Quote came in for a Lennox XP17 3ton. $5757 after all rebates and hst. Salesguy said I'd still save 20% on my total heating bill on my G61V furnace. I'm still rather skeptical after speaking with a friend of mine that put in a heat pump. He ended up paying more overall for heating in the summer now that gas prices are so low.

[Munchos]

We recently had a new Carrier furnace and a/c installed and have noticed that over the last couple of months the filter usage percentage always appears to be off. We called the installer and he had orginally stated that after the original install it will show a high percentage and that after a couple of weeks we should remove the filter vacumm it off and reset the controller to zero. We did all this and now a couple of months later it is again reading 60 percent used. Any ideas on if this is normal or what we should do? Thanks

Do you have an infinity controller?

[Munchos]

Quote came in for a Lennox XP17 3ton. $5757 after all rebates and hst. Salesguy said I'd still save 20% on my total heating bill on my G61V furnace. I'm still rather skeptical after speaking with a friend of mine that put in a heat pump. He ended up paying more overall for heating in the summer now that gas prices are so low.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of Heat pumps, especially if you already have a forced air gas furnace. I would only get one if I was on oil, propane, or lived in Quebec. Just my personal opinion.

[Munchos]

Thanks Munchos - it's nice to have a licensed technician give us the straight dope. :)

LOL any time. I see this ALL the time and can pretty much tell them that they never got a permit when finishing the basement. It's an easy red-tag, and an easy call back to take the red-tag off.

[kztix]

Hi,
I found a Carrier 3ton unit available for a good price ($400) in excellent condition, however no refrigerant or A-coil/disconnect/piping.
I was thinking of purchasing this and just getting a contractor to do an install - however I've gotten quotes from 1200-1400 for just the install alone, which kind of makes it pointless.. I thought the install would be cheaper since it's just a 1-2 day job ($600/day in labour seems high to me!) but of course that includes refrigerant etc.

Is this a high quote and are there significantly better prices out there (I'm looking for under 1000 really..) or am I just being unrealistic? Please advise, looking to make the purchase soon. Even references would be appreciated!

Thank you very much!

[kztix]

Also, does anyone know if there are any rebates for a brand new central air system (not a replacement, it's a new house).. can't seem to find anything, only for replacements.. thank you!! :)

[Munchos]

Hi,
I found a Carrier 3ton unit available for a good price ($400) in excellent condition, however no refrigerant or A-coil/disconnect/piping.
I was thinking of purchasing this and just getting a contractor to do an install - however I've gotten quotes from 1200-1400 for just the install alone, which kind of makes it pointless.. I thought the install would be cheaper since it's just a 1-2 day job ($600/day in labour seems high to me!) but of course that includes refrigerant etc.

Is this a high quote and are there significantly better prices out there (I'm looking for under 1000 really..) or am I just being unrealistic? Please advise, looking to make the purchase soon. Even references would be appreciated!

Thank you very much!

Stay away. You are being unrealistic about cost and will just end up spending more money on the unit than you think. Why is there no refrigerant? I know you can leave all the refrigerant in the outdoor unit, so why is there none? Probably a leaker.

[Limoges_shopper]

Hi,
I found a Carrier 3ton unit available for a good price ($400) in excellent condition, however no refrigerant or A-coil/disconnect/piping.
I was thinking of purchasing this and just getting a contractor to do an install - however I've gotten quotes from 1200-1400 for just the install alone, which kind of makes it pointless.. I thought the install would be cheaper since it's just a 1-2 day job ($600/day in labour seems high to me!) but of course that includes refrigerant etc.

Is this a high quote and are there significantly better prices out there (I'm looking for under 1000 really..) or am I just being unrealistic? Please advise, looking to make the purchase soon. Even references would be appreciated!

Thank you very much!


Stay away. You are being unrealistic about cost and will just end up spending more money on the unit than you think. Why is there no refrigerant? I know you can leave all the refrigerant in the outdoor unit, so why is there none? Probably a leaker.

1) this is the wrong thread for this post: it's a technical advice thread.

2) The unit could be stolen too. If you don't know for sure where it came from, there is a good chance it was stolen. Just ask builders what happens to their units. Or better yet, the HVAC contractors that install them.

3) if no refrigerant in it, then I would be wondering about the reliability of the compressor.

4) You want to pay less than that for the installation? Well, if you find a hack, fly-by-night guy that is part of the stinking underground economy, then you might be in "luck" - and you just might inherit a nightmare...

[starryiid1]

that consensus is ludicrous!!! The return air ducts load up with crap, and then the air coming back to your furnace is constantly dirty: you need to clean the ducts every few years! If the air in your house isn't dirty but your filter is, then the dirt's coming from the return air ducts. That's what my crystal ball says. :D

Now what kind of filter is it? how does it communicate with your thermostat?

We have the 58MVC060 Carrier Furnace with the carrier media cabinet and filter and the Infinity controller does that help?

[starryiid1]

Do you have an infinity controller?

Yes we have the
Inifinty Controller

[Limoges_shopper]

We have the 58MVC060 Carrier Furnace with the carrier media cabinet and filter and the Infinity controller does that help?

I think the thermostat determines that the filter needs cleaning/replacing by a timer. Every so many days it tell you you have to check your filter. I think you need to reset that part (anyone familiar with Infinity thermostats? They don't talk to media filters, right? There's no pressure differential across the filter, is there?).

[nighthawk26]

I think the thermostat determines that the filter needs cleaning/replacing by a timer. Every so many days it tell you you have to check your filter. I think you need to reset that part (anyone familiar with Infinity thermostats? They don't talk to media filters, right? There's no pressure differential across the filter, is there?).

The furnace will send pressure changes to the stat. The stat will then "translate" that to a % of filter block/usage.

[nighthawk26]

Stay away. You are being unrealistic about cost and will just end up spending more money on the unit than you think. Why is there no refrigerant? I know you can leave all the refrigerant in the outdoor unit, so why is there none? Probably a leaker.

Maybe he just assumes casue he sees cut lines?

NO reputable dealer will install this.

[Limoges_shopper]

The furnace will send pressure changes to the stat. The stat will then "translate" that to a % of filter block/usage.
Where does it take the pressures? To properly determine pressure drop across a filter, you need to sense the pressure before and after the filter, then run the system at a set speed, and tell the control that this represents clean. If you're doing it outside the filter (not across it, but downstream) then you need to sense the drop in inlet pressure for any given blower consumption. It might work. Can you zero it?

Also, if this is a media type filter, doesn't it need to be replaced, not cleaned?

[starryiid1]

The furnace will send pressure changes to the stat. The stat will then "translate" that to a % of filter block/usage.

So if I have only had the furnace for 1.5 months why would it show up as 70% used already? After 1 week it read 50% used and I followed the contractors advice to vacumm and reset the controller but I am now back where I started with it telling me that it is dirty again. Is it possible that I just have very dirty ducts?

[Munchos]

So if I have only had the furnace for 1.5 months why would it show up as 70% used already? After 1 week it read 50% used and I followed the contractors advice to vacumm and reset the controller but I am now back where I started with it telling me that it is dirty again. Is it possible that I just have very dirty ducts?

The filter warning is not wholly accurate with the infinity stat, just a general warning when the motor has to ramp up to increase airflow. Usually this is due to a high static pressure, dirty filter, small ductwork, etc.. I see this quite often with older homes that have put in a new furnace but the ductwork is not designed for the high velocity of the new airflow. I would either add a return air in the basement if you don't have one, check the return drop to see how big it is, or you can put the stat to say its an EAC (not media filter) and set the reminder filter for 180 days. The latter would solve your problem with the filter reminder and is something that is done often, especially in older homes.

[RenegadeX]

Just had an Carrier Infinity 96 furnace installed this week along with the Infinity Control. To be honest, For the price, I thought the ICS thermostat was going to be bigger and better than it is - I was previously using a NOMA digital thermostat that I got at CT years ago for about $30 that seemed to do most of what the ICS can do except no vacation mode and no backlighting (and unlike the ICS, it had usage trend graphs so you could monitor recent furnace/AC 'on-time). But anyway the point of this post: the temperature reading on the ICS seems to be too high and the humidity reading is too low.

When the ICS shows the current temp as 25C,
- a traditional mercury thermometer place next to it at the same height shows between 22C and 23C;
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows 22.9C;
- my digital alarm clock which has a temperature reading shows 23C

When the ICS shows a current humidity reading of 46%,
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows a reading of 51% humidity
- a traditional aneroid barometer shows a reading of 52% humidity

I could of course just set all of the temperature programs 2 degrees lower than I would otherwise have and set the humidity 'comfort' level accordingly, but when you pay $300 or whatever it was for the thing, one expects the thing to be accurate. I'm going to call the dealer on Monday and see if I can get them to test it/swap it.

In the meantime, I was just wondering if anyone else here who has an ICS has encountered similar inaccuracies/discrepancies in temperature and humidity readings? (Or if you're an installer if you've come across this issue before, and how common is it?) Thanks.

[tojo]

Just had an Carrier Infinity 96 furnace installed this week along with the Infinity Control. To be honest, For the price, I thought the ICS thermostat was going to be bigger and better than it is - I was previously using a NOMA digital thermostat that I got at CT years ago for about $30 that seemed to do most of what the ICS can do except no vacation mode and no backlighting (and unlike the ICS, it had usage trend graphs so you could monitor recent furnace/AC 'on-time). But anyway the point of this post: the temperature reading on the ICS seems to be too high and the humidity reading is too low.

When the ICS shows the current temp as 25C,
- a traditional mercury thermometer place next to it at the same height shows between 22C and 23C;
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows 22.9C;
- my digital alarm clock which has a temperature reading shows 23C

When the ICS shows a current humidity reading of 46%,
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows a reading of 51% humidity
- a traditional aneroid barometer shows a reading of 52% humidity

I could of course just set all of the temperature programs 2 degrees lower than I would otherwise have and set the humidity 'comfort' level accordingly, but when you pay $300 or whatever it was for the thing, one expects the thing to be accurate. I'm going to call the dealer on Monday and see if I can get them to test it/swap it.

In the meantime, I was just wondering if anyone else here who has an ICS has encountered similar inaccuracies/discrepancies in temperature and humidity readings? (Or if you're an installer if you've come across this issue before, and how common is it?) Thanks.

I had the same furnace installed this week, along with the infinity control. Funny that you mentioned the reading is too high, as mine does the same thing. Just today, I put an offset of -1C, and it now seems more accurate. I suppose you can call it a calibration, but for what this unit sells for, a 1 or 2 degree offset is not really acceptable. For the record, the model # I have is the SYSTXCCUID01-B, firmware CESR131339-16.

What AC are you hooked up to, and do you find the controller works well with it?

[Munchos]

I had the same furnace installed this week, along with the infinity control. Funny that you mentioned the reading is too high, as mine does the same thing. Just today, I put an offset of -1C, and it now seems more accurate. I suppose you can call it a calibration, but for what this unit sells for, a 1 or 2 degree offset is not really acceptable. For the record, the model # I have is the SYSTXCCUID01-B, firmware CESR131339-16.

What AC are you hooked up to, and do you find the controller works well with it?

Why is that not acceptable? I paid $1500 for my tv yet had to calibrate it out of the box. You can calibrate a lot of stuff on the infinity controller.

[Munchos]

Just had an Carrier Infinity 96 furnace installed this week along with the Infinity Control. To be honest, For the price, I thought the ICS thermostat was going to be bigger and better than it is - I was previously using a NOMA digital thermostat that I got at CT years ago for about $30 that seemed to do most of what the ICS can do except no vacation mode and no backlighting (and unlike the ICS, it had usage trend graphs so you could monitor recent furnace/AC 'on-time). But anyway the point of this post: the temperature reading on the ICS seems to be too high and the humidity reading is too low.

When the ICS shows the current temp as 25C,
- a traditional mercury thermometer place next to it at the same height shows between 22C and 23C;
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows 22.9C;
- my digital alarm clock which has a temperature reading shows 23C

When the ICS shows a current humidity reading of 46%,
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows a reading of 51% humidity
- a traditional aneroid barometer shows a reading of 52% humidity

I could of course just set all of the temperature programs 2 degrees lower than I would otherwise have and set the humidity 'comfort' level accordingly, but when you pay $300 or whatever it was for the thing, one expects the thing to be accurate. I'm going to call the dealer on Monday and see if I can get them to test it/swap it.

In the meantime, I was just wondering if anyone else here who has an ICS has encountered similar inaccuracies/discrepancies in temperature and humidity readings? (Or if you're an installer if you've come across this issue before, and how common is it?) Thanks.

LOL It's fine. There are calibrations you can make to adjust the humidity, out door temp, indoor temp, etc.... It is all in the service aspect of the controller.

[tojo]

LOL It's fine. There are calibrations you can make to adjust the humidity, out door temp, indoor temp, etc.... It is all in the service aspect of the controller.

It would depend on the stability of the instrument. If I'm frequently calibrating this controller, I would question the quality of the instrument. Out of the box I would expect it to be very close, and a one time calibration is not a big issue. But if it drifts and if stability is a problem, I would not be too happy with it...

[shoppingkart]

Just had an Carrier Infinity 96 furnace installed this week along with the Infinity Control. To be honest, For the price, I thought the ICS thermostat was going to be bigger and better than it is - I was previously using a NOMA digital thermostat that I got at CT years ago for about $30 that seemed to do most of what the ICS can do except no vacation mode and no backlighting (and unlike the ICS, it had usage trend graphs so you could monitor recent furnace/AC 'on-time). But anyway the point of this post: the temperature reading on the ICS seems to be too high and the humidity reading is too low.

When the ICS shows the current temp as 25C,
- a traditional mercury thermometer place next to it at the same height shows between 22C and 23C;
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows 22.9C;
- my digital alarm clock which has a temperature reading shows 23C

When the ICS shows a current humidity reading of 46%,
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows a reading of 51% humidity
- a traditional aneroid barometer shows a reading of 52% humidity

I could of course just set all of the temperature programs 2 degrees lower than I would otherwise have and set the humidity 'comfort' level accordingly, but when you pay $300 or whatever it was for the thing, one expects the thing to be accurate. I'm going to call the dealer on Monday and see if I can get them to test it/swap it.

In the meantime, I was just wondering if anyone else here who has an ICS has encountered similar inaccuracies/discrepancies in temperature and humidity readings? (Or if you're an installer if you've come across this issue before, and how common is it?) Thanks.

The Infinity controller has a lot more features, settings and options then your old Noma tstat did. You are experiencing problems, because the installer did not know how or was too lazy to set up the Infinity properly and explain its features and settings to you.

[nighthawk26]

Just had an Carrier Infinity 96 furnace installed this week along with the Infinity Control. To be honest, For the price, I thought the ICS thermostat was going to be bigger and better than it is - I was previously using a NOMA digital thermostat that I got at CT years ago for about $30 that seemed to do most of what the ICS can do except no vacation mode and no backlighting (and unlike the ICS, it had usage trend graphs so you could monitor recent furnace/AC 'on-time). But anyway the point of this post: the temperature reading on the ICS seems to be too high and the humidity reading is too low.

When the ICS shows the current temp as 25C,
- a traditional mercury thermometer place next to it at the same height shows between 22C and 23C;
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows 22.9C;
- my digital alarm clock which has a temperature reading shows 23C

When the ICS shows a current humidity reading of 46%,
- my old NOMA digital thermostat shows a reading of 51% humidity
- a traditional aneroid barometer shows a reading of 52% humidity

I could of course just set all of the temperature programs 2 degrees lower than I would otherwise have and set the humidity 'comfort' level accordingly, but when you pay $300 or whatever it was for the thing, one expects the thing to be accurate. I'm going to call the dealer on Monday and see if I can get them to test it/swap it.

In the meantime, I was just wondering if anyone else here who has an ICS has encountered similar inaccuracies/discrepancies in temperature and humidity readings? (Or if you're an installer if you've come across this issue before, and how common is it?) Thanks.

The stat is incredible. It's FUNCTION features and how it communicates with the furnace and makes adjustments is whats relevant and you see none of that happening. It's ability when coupled with the furnace to control humidity, and even heat distribution is what will set it apart from the gizmo useless NOMA. That stat is a piece of junk. When calibrated properly, the Infinity stat should require no additional setup. Again, when calibrated PROPERLY.

[RenegadeX]

I had the same furnace installed this week, along with the infinity control. Funny that you mentioned the reading is too high, as mine does the same thing. Just today, I put an offset of -1C, and it now seems more accurate. I suppose you can call it a calibration, but for what this unit sells for, a 1 or 2 degree offset is not really acceptable. For the record, the model # I have is the SYSTXCCUID01-B, firmware CESR131339-16.

What AC are you hooked up to, and do you find the controller works well with it?Thanks. My model & firmware are the same and so after reading your post on Sunday morning (and 'Muncho''s below it) and learning that it was possible to set an offset, I Googled it and found the Infinity Control's Service Manual [link (http://www.commercial.carrier.com/wcs/dynamiclit_result/1,2759,CLI1_DIV41_ETI4922_PRD1580,00.html)] and so was able to figure out how to access the service menu and *for now* have changed the temp & humidity offsets myself. (Hold 'Advanced' for 10secs, then 'Setup'->'Thermostat'->'Offsets'). As I'll explain below, I will still call the Carrier dealer/installer on Monday to let them know about the issue and see what they have to say about it, not mentioning that I've manually set an offset. I'll of course set it back to '0' before (if) they come and check it themselves.

I actually encountered another peculiarity while setting the offsets: the 'current temp' was showing 25C when my other 3 thermometers showed 21.9C-22C, so when I set a temp offset of "-3", said "yes" to save the setting and backed-out of the menus, the 'current temp' still showed 25C! I repeated this with"-2" and "-1", same result, still 25C. I then tried "+2" and the current temp instantly reflected a change of +2C, 27C. Tried "-3" again and it was back to where I started, 25C, incorrect. Then I tried "-4" and the current temp now showed 22C. Hmm...
:confused:

Humidity offset also had me initially puzzled but I got it figured out. Infinity Control showed 50% humidity, when my 2 other readings showed 55%. I set an offset of +10, but this did not give me the desired result of a +10% change. It was actually looking for a change of +5, ie: the numerical difference. :lol:


Anyhow, as you asked, my AC unit is a single-stage Sears 36K BTU. As the Carrier stuff has only been installed for 3 or 4 days now and it hasn't been too hot out the last few days, it's hard to say if it works any better than with the old NOMA thermostat, which I had no complaints with in regards to its its ability to heat & cool the house. I got the new Carrier 96 furnace and IC t-stat because my previous furnace was getting on in life and with the energy audit rebates and no HST, better now(well last month) than the middle of January or some other time out of necessity!



LOL It's fine. There are calibrations you can make to adjust the humidity, out door temp, indoor temp, etc.... It is all in the service aspect of the controller.

Why is that not acceptable? I paid $1500 for my tv yet had to calibrate it out of the box. You can calibrate a lot of stuff on the infinity controller.Thanks for the first part about the service adjustments being possible but as for the second part, umm, that's a bad analogy. #1) When you bought your TV, did the price you paid include professional installation, set up and professional calibration using the proper test equipment? I'm guessing "no". But even if you did, and had a professional techie (or for that matter, entire crew of them) working at your house the entire day and when they left you discovered it wasn't quite working as it should (or wasn't calibrated correctly, if that's what you'd paid them to do), you'd surely have feelings of disappointment, too. I paid to have the furnace & t-stat professionally installed by an authorized dealer, which included configuration and testing.
#2) A modern TV is pre-set to 'factory optimal' settings but may then be 'professionally' calibrated in-home because the TV's picture quality is dependent on the type and quality of connections providing the signal(s) and the actual quality of the signal being processed by the TV. And there's also the 'subjectiveness factor' of the individual viewer. A t-stat/h-stat leaves the factory calibrated and its calibration should ordinarily NOT need adjustment when it's taken out of the box and installed. A t-stat's measurements are intended to be precise (not approximate, not subjective). When it's not accurate, there's a problem.

It's somewhat reassuring to know that the IC's calibration can be manually adjusted (via the service menu), but doing so doesn't help me understand WHY it is necessary. Is that considered 'normal' and 'within manufacturer's accepted tolerances', or was it due to poor quality control at the Carrier factory, bad luck in receiving a defective unit, improper/sloppy installation by the installer, or due to some other explanation that I'm currently unaware of. If my Carrier dealer tells me "LoL.. it's fine" on Monday, I will not be impressed. But funnily enough, I'm not expecting that to be his reply..




The Infinity controller has a lot more features, settings and options then your old Noma tstat did.
The stat is incredible. It's FUNCTION features and how it communicates with the furnace and makes adjustments is whats relevant and you see none of that happening. It's ability when coupled with the furnace to control humidity, and even heat distribution is what will set it apart from the gizmo useless NOMA. That stat is a piece of junk. When calibrated properly, the Infinity stat should require no additional setup. Again, when calibrated PROPERLY.
I think what I was really trying to say was that if I'd come from a traditional t-stat to the Infinity Control I'd be amazed but coming from the 'feature-packed' $30 NOMA, it seemed rather ordinary and my first reaction was "Damn, that NOMA was good value; This?..not so much!". :lol:

The NOMA had many of the features of the $300-$450 IC, namely: Heat/Cool/Auto/Off, 7-day 4 time-period programmable settings, 'pre-comfort recovery' (turn on prior to set time, not at set time), 'hold', temporary override, vent-on/off/auto, humidifier control (admittedly not as advanced as the IC's), filter replacement reminder - oh and despite what I said last time, it does have backlight (mine was just set to 'off' in the Options). [product manual under different name here (http://www.upm-marketing.com/images/productID_16/THM501_Manual_Downloads.pdf)]. I would rather the IC provide usage trend graphs like those on the NOMA than have the ability to see the SN & model# of my furnace or AC unit and have it tell me the installer's company name & phone#, as the IC does. Of course, the IC has a couple/some nice extra features and far more in-depth options than the NOMA and it appears to be a well designed and well-though out unit (though I am wondering why it only deals in *whole*-number temperature values, and not 1 decimal place?). I have no regrets getting it to go with the new furnace and its price was never an issue.




You are experiencing problems, because the installer did not know how or was too lazy to set up the Infinity properly and explain its features and settings to you.Agreed it was not tested for temp/humidity accuracy and in that respect the installer may be said to have been "lazy", PROVIDED THAT inaccurate current temp/current humidity readings 'out of the box' is a known issue. Otherwise, as it's not a multi-zone system and therefore there's no 'comparison values' to take, why would they have reason to test it? As you obviously know more than I do, can you please tell me what the typical cause of such discrepancies is :?:

re: "did not... explain its features and settings to you" :arrow: So tell me then, the Install/Service Menu is normally explained by professional installers to the end-user? Should I also complain to my dealer that I never received a hardcopy version of Install/Service Manual? :rolleyes: I guess I should call Rogers (PVR), Pioneer(TV) and my car salespersons who've all provided me with products I know have hidden service menus and who never so much as mentioned a word about them to me at the time of purchase. :razz:

[shoppingkart]

The installation and set up manual comes with the infinity tstat, so you should have asked them to leave it with you. :idea:

[retroman80s]

A friend of mines just got a new AC installed, but I noticed that it wasn't screwed into the brackets. Should it be screwed in to secure it?

Is it better for an AC to be on brackets vs on the floor on top of a piece of concert slab? How about preventing less noise going into the house?

[Michael60]

I would be most appreciative of recommendations regarding cooling options for an ICF house (to be constructed) in which heating will be provided by hydronic in-floor radiant heating (via a natural gas-fired boiler)? My wife is completely opposed to split air conditioning. Additionally, among the 'cons' that I've read about with respect to oft-recommended high-velocity systems are expense and reports of 'noisiness.' Perhaps you will comment on any experience that you have with high velocity AC systems.

Thanks.

Cheers!

[nighthawk26]

A friend of mines just got a new AC installed, but I noticed that it wasn't screwed into the brackets. Should it be screwed in to secure it?

Is it better for an AC to be on brackets vs on the floor on top of a piece of concert slab? How about preventing less noise going into the house?

This question always intrigues me, most likely casue of the random things sales people willc ome up with in their pitch.

"Is it better for an AC to be on brackets vs on the floor on a concrete slab"?

Better?

It frankly is an answer of install options and nothing more. Don't want it in the backyard like most people? Live in a new home built in the last 10 or so years where your houses are a few feet apart? Notice the slopes between properties? This is necessary to move water from the home. When they were farther apart the slope could be far less severe to back int he day EVERYTHING was put on the ground. Now I hear all the time that people are "told" this or that is better from contractors. What a crock. They can't sit on a slope so brackets it is. Personally, I'd never want to driill into foundation if I don't have to. Then I get people say, well it won't be in the way as much. Really? Cause it's 12-18" off the ground now it's not in the way? Well I can get my mower under it now. Really? for the grass that almost always dies under it?

Believe what you want, hear what you want, but it becomes a install requirement and nothing more.

This question aside, the only other one that frustrates me is the will you throw in a cover casue the other guy will throw in a cover. Can't help but ask why they want a cover. Well to protect in the snow of course. Ahhh... yes, well let me throw another wrench into the deal... I'll throw inan umbrella for you to cover it when it rains in the summer too.

Man, why am I moody today! :)

[akyyyy]

Many things could be causing this problem, and closing the vents in the basement could help.
Closing vents in basement doesn't help prevent freezing!!!! they prevent the basement from being uncomfortably cool, but not from freezing... the do allow more pressure to be distributed through the other floors, and will result in more cold air going upstairs.

There are other things you can do to such as run you fan in between cooling cycles (fan in "on" position instead of "auto"). This results in more air being circulated, and thus less hot air upstairs.

i will leave the fan on "on" instead of auto from now on. hopefully it make a difference.

as for the freezing, the guys installing said if i shut the dampers in the basement, the dampers might freeze shut. not sure if that will happen, will it?

[Tiberius]

Sorry to see you are moody today... but I think you missed the question being asked (I actually had the same thing done by Peel Aire One at my house!).

The question wasn't if it was "better" to put the a/c on brackets or on the ground... the question was should the a/c be SCREWED IN / ATTACHED to the brackets, as opposed to simply sitting on a concrete slab that is laid across the top of the brackets!

In my case, they almost left it like this with the brackets uneven enough to have a LARGE side to side slope that was angled down the hill along my house. I can't imagine the a/c wouldn't have shifted and fell off over time (I guess they really count on the power and copper attachments holding it in place???) I pointed out the massive slope and they tried to tell me it was good for "water run-off"... but I made them adjust it to get it almost level (as level as possible without re-drilling the holes) They also said they would "secure" it - and I came out to see that securing it meant wrapping a piece of strapping around the patio stone and under the brackets, and attaching it with a screw at the bottom of each side of the a/c frame. Pretty stunning stuff! Everything seems to work fine - but the little details really do matter and impact how people "feel" about the whole experience.


This question always intrigues me, most likely casue of the random things sales people willc ome up with in their pitch.

"Is it better for an AC to be on brackets vs on the floor on a concrete slab"?

Better?

It frankly is an answer of install options and nothing more. Don't want it in the backyard like most people? Live in a new home built in the last 10 or so years where your houses are a few feet apart? Notice the slopes between properties? This is necessary to move water from the home. When they were farther apart the slope could be far less severe to back int he day EVERYTHING was put on the ground. Now I hear all the time that people are "told" this or that is better from contractors. What a crock. They can't sit on a slope so brackets it is. Personally, I'd never want to driill into foundation if I don't have to. Then I get people say, well it won't be in the way as much. Really? Cause it's 12-18" off the ground now it's not in the way? Well I can get my mower under it now. Really? for the grass that almost always dies under it?

Believe what you want, hear what you want, but it becomes a install requirement and nothing more.

This question aside, the only other one that frustrates me is the will you throw in a cover casue the other guy will throw in a cover. Can't help but ask why they want a cover. Well to protect in the snow of course. Ahhh... yes, well let me throw another wrench into the deal... I'll throw inan umbrella for you to cover it when it rains in the summer too.

Man, why am I moody today! :)

[nighthawk26]

Sorry to see you are moody today... but I think you missed the question being asked (I actually had the same thing done by Peel Aire One at my house!).

The question wasn't if it was "better" to put the a/c on brackets or on the ground... the question was should the a/c be SCREWED IN / ATTACHED to the brackets, as opposed to simply sitting on a concrete slab that is laid across the top of the brackets!

In my case, they almost left it like this with the brackets uneven enough to have a LARGE side to side slope that was angled down the hill along my house. I can't imagine the a/c wouldn't have shifted and fell off over time (I guess they really count on the power and copper attachments holding it in place???) I pointed out the massive slope and they tried to tell me it was good for "water run-off"... but I made them adjust it to get it almost level (as level as possible without re-drilling the holes) They also said they would "secure" it - and I came out to see that securing it meant wrapping a piece of strapping around the patio stone and under the brackets, and attaching it with a screw at the bottom of each side of the a/c frame. Pretty stunning stuff! Everything seems to work fine - but the little details really do matter and impact how people "feel" about the whole experience.

ok so I reread hsi question, and it's gotta bea two part question to which I answered the second part. The first part if it's on weather or not it should just sit on brackets or sit ona stone WHICH THEN sits on brackets, then my honest answer is I don't know. I try to go back and check out most of my jobs once they have been installed and I've seen it done both ways. I've never seen anything slope even slightly as you've mentioned, but at the same time I've can't say for sure I've ever seen anything "bolted" down either. Not sure thats even possible. Maybebest for an actually installer or tech to answer that one.

[janaka]

Mine isn't bolt to the brackets fwiw (3ton XC14).
My mom's isn't either. Both are level, I know my will move if you run into it, but really, how the heck do you not see today's AC's...lol

[Munchos]

ok so I reread hsi question, and it's gotta bea two part question to which I answered the second part. The first part if it's on weather or not it should just sit on brackets or sit ona stone WHICH THEN sits on brackets, then my honest answer is I don't know. I try to go back and check out most of my jobs once they have been installed and I've seen it done both ways. I've never seen anything slope even slightly as you've mentioned, but at the same time I've can't say for sure I've ever seen anything "bolted" down either. Not sure thats even possible. Maybebest for an actually installer or tech to answer that one.

Never bolted them on and have never used a patio stone sitting on top of the bracket. Only time I have seen patio stones used on brackets is when the measurement is off to the width of the ac, and it can't sit properly on the bracket. Hell, I absolutely hate using brackets as they can cause some vibrations to the house.

This is one of those issues that it really doesn't matter at all and it's only an issue when someone makes it one. I have never heard or seen an air conditioner fall off a bracket.

[ratface]

Great thread. I guess everyone has a furnace so no wonder it is so popular.

I have a 10 year old furnace that I am considering replacing. It isn't very old, but is single stage and has an ac motor. I had an energy audit so could replace it with higher efficiency, two-stage furnace with a dc motor.

Is it worth it? Normally I wouldn't replace something that still works, but if I do it now I get the energy audit rebates and start saving money on my gas and electric bills.

[nighthawk26]

Great thread. I guess everyone has a furnace so no wonder it is so popular.

I have a 10 year old furnace that I am considering replacing. It isn't very old, but is single stage and has an ac motor. I had an energy audit so could replace it with higher efficiency, two-stage furnace with a dc motor.

Is it worth it? Normally I wouldn't replace something that still works, but if I do it now I get the energy audit rebates and start saving money on my gas and electric bills.

Well, you'll save a little on gas, nothing huge, but 5% min. anyways. Depending otn eh quality of whats in there now you may only have a few years left anyways so some grants are better than nothing and you've already paid for the audit. Hydro you're gonna save at least a few hundred a year, will have a quieter unit, likely a lot more comfort in the home and almost at least a grand in rebates. If you're gonna be in the home for some time now that is another reason to do it.

[retroman80s]

Never bolted them on and have never used a patio stone sitting on top of the bracket. Only time I have seen patio stones used on brackets is when the measurement is off to the width of the ac, and it can't sit properly on the bracket. Hell, I absolutely hate using brackets as they can cause some vibrations to the house.

This is one of those issues that it really doesn't matter at all and it's only an issue when someone makes it one. I have never heard or seen an air conditioner fall off a bracket.

Do I know about humming vibrations in the house. For some reason when the guy installed my AC, he screwed the brackets into my brick wall, not the foundation. Every time the AC comes on, you can hear the hum coming from one side of my house!! Sometimes it wakes me up in the middle of the night when it comes on. It's really pissing me off, I'm trying to figure out what options I have. Any feedback would be great.

Patio Project: http://tinyurl.com/nkc5l4

[Munchos]

Do I know about humming vibrations in the house. For some reason when the guy installed my AC, he screwed the brackets into my brick wall, not the foundation. Every time the AC comes on, you can hear the hum coming from one side of my house!! Sometimes it wakes me up in the middle of the night when it comes on. It's really pissing me off, I'm trying to figure out what options I have. Any feedback would be great.

Patio Project: http://tinyurl.com/nkc5l4

I never, ever attach the brackets to the brick. If I can't put the bracket on the foundation, either dig down to bury half the bracket so it will go onto the foundation or on the ground it goes. One is that bricks can't hold a lot of weight and over time, with the vibration, the tapcon could possibly become loose. Two, you get vibrations more so than put on foundations.

You can put pads between the bracket and the wall to reduce the noise. Might be a little too late in your case. Hopefully your contractor is respectable and will fix the problem, which will be a pain in the ***** for him.

[NEMESIS_2008]

I have 2 heat vents and no return air vent in the basement. After some looking around, I noticed a duct coming down from the ceiling to just above the floor but it was covered by the previous ownder when they finished the redc room. How do I tell if that covered vent is a return vent or another heat vent?

I'm concerned about the lack of a return vent in the basement because I want to keep the fan on during hot summer days so I can circulate the cold air to the ground level and 2nd floor, which lowers the call for a/c. Without a return vent, I can't do that.

I'll take some pics of the covered vent when I come home from work. It looks like the previous owner boarded up the vent with drywall

[nighthawk26]

Do I know about humming vibrations in the house. For some reason when the guy installed my AC, he screwed the brackets into my brick wall, not the foundation. Every time the AC comes on, you can hear the hum coming from one side of my house!! Sometimes it wakes me up in the middle of the night when it comes on. It's really pissing me off, I'm trying to figure out what options I have. Any feedback would be great.

Patio Project: http://tinyurl.com/nkc5l4

Now thats just stupid for too many reasons to even list.

[Limoges_shopper]

i will leave the fan on "on" instead of auto from now on. hopefully it make a difference.

as for the freezing, the guys installing said if i shut the dampers in the basement, the dampers might freeze shut. not sure if that will happen, will it?
Dampers freeze shut??? They are lying to you or are totally not qualified to do this work!!! The air temperature doesn't get cold enough for water vapour to collect on the dampers, let alone freeze!!!!

[Limoges_shopper]

Do I know about humming vibrations in the house. For some reason when the guy installed my AC, he screwed the brackets into my brick wall, not the foundation. Every time the AC comes on, you can hear the hum coming from one side of my house!! Sometimes it wakes me up in the middle of the night when it comes on. It's really pissing me off, I'm trying to figure out what options I have. Any feedback would be great.

Patio Project: http://tinyurl.com/nkc5l4


I never, ever attach the brackets to the brick. If I can't put the bracket on the foundation, either dig down to bury half the bracket so it will go onto the foundation or on the ground it goes. One is that bricks can't hold a lot of weight and over time, with the vibration, the tapcon could possibly become loose. Two, you get vibrations more so than put on foundations.

You can put pads between the bracket and the wall to reduce the noise. Might be a little too late in your case. Hopefully your contractor is respectable and will fix the problem, which will be a pain in the ***** for him.


Now thats just stupid for too many reasons to even list.

I would complain to the contractor and tell him to mount the brackets on to the foundation. I have never seen an installation that had brakcets mounted to the brick walls. Go around to new construction areas of your city, and look at where the brackets are mounted. Munchos said it: they will come out, plus a brick wall is not made to hold that load. If not enough foundation is showing, then they have to dig it out. I would remove the sod from that area first, then let them do their work, then lay the sod back on.

As far as pain in the ***** , the contractor has to:

Pump refrigerant back into compressor.
Cut refrigerant lines
Disconnect electrical lines
Remove condensing unit from bracket
Remove brackets from brick wall
Dig a hole in front of each bracket so that they can mount the bracket on the wall (and far out enough from the wall to fit power tool to drill holes for bolts).
Mount the brackets
Mount the air conditioner
Install filter drier (if one is not already present - have the contractor show it to you if they say it's there - it should be easy to see)
Reconnect refrigerant lines
Fill lines with nitrogen - check for leaks.
Evacuate the lines.
Reconnect electrical lines
Open service valves and test system operation.


Pain is right, but they created their own pain. I wouldn't let them seal the holes int he brick wall: I'd do it myself.

And if they say "no", then publish their name on this web site, and they will loose many times more in profit from lost sales than it would cost them to have a couple guy do this work. If they are good, they could do it in 2-3 hours or maybe even less if they really work fast.
To add incentive, you could offer to dig out the holes (assuming not enough foundation is showing for the brackets).

[wasserware]

Do I know about humming vibrations in the house. For some reason when the guy installed my AC, he screwed the brackets into my brick wall, not the foundation. Every time the AC comes on, you can hear the hum coming from one side of my house!! Sometimes it wakes me up in the middle of the night when it comes on. It's really pissing me off, I'm trying to figure out what options I have. Any feedback would be great.

Patio Project: http://tinyurl.com/nkc5l4

That is just one very very very bad install totally irresponsible of the installer. The bricks in Canadian houses are mere exterior decorative items and in no way it is designed to support the weight and vibration of the air conditioning unit. The vibration might also cause damage to your wooden structure.

You should call back the company, yell, scream and demand they either install it on the ground or on the foundation.

[mbalgavy]

Whole house dehumidifier - what are your opininions on it? I have moved to new house last year, August. Went on vacation for the first two weeks, so I didn't get to occupy the house untill mid August. This year I have discovered that my AC is oversized for the house, and it does not properly dehumidify when cooling. I find myself pushing the temp lower and lower just to make the space feel comfortable. I am now considering either getting a whole house dehumidifier and hooking it up to furnace (Honeywell TrueDry DH65) or maybe just geeting a smaller portable dehumidier and installing it in basement, where the humidity problem is a bit worse. I do not want to do any changes on the AC system, since it has been replaced with efficient system by previous owner about 5 years ago. I am plannig to do some renovation/addition on the house in 5 years, so the system migth be sized ok by then, or it might be repalced alltoghether.
Would smaller portable dehumidifier be more cost effective over next 5 years, and will dehumidification of air in basement have any benefit to upstairs (the air should be returned from both basement and 1st floor and mixed in, hence the overall RH should be lower.)
I assume the smaller unit in basement will be more cost effective ($1200 for TruDry vs. some $150 for portable in capital, + operatinoal costs), however not sure if the dehumidifier in basement will have any impact on the upper floors. Any opinions?

[tojo]

Anyhow, as you asked, my AC unit is a single-stage Sears 36K BTU. As the Carrier stuff has only been installed for 3 or 4 days now and it hasn't been too hot out the last few days, it's hard to say if it works any better than with the old NOMA thermostat, which I had no complaints with in regards to its its ability to heat & cool the house. I got the new Carrier 96 furnace and IC t-stat because my previous furnace was getting on in life and with the energy audit rebates and no HST, better now(well last month) than the middle of January or some other time out of necessity!


Let me know how your unit cools when it get hotter outside (we still have August coming up). Under the current default "Comfort" setting, I tried to drop the temperature under the following indoor conditions last night:

Indoor Temp: 25C, Humidity: 47%, 7:30pm, outdoor temp 25C.

Set temp hold on controller to 22C: after 4 hours, indoor temp 24C, Humidity 39%, outdoor temp 22C.

It is doing a very good job dehumidifying, but possibly not cooling effectively.

Cool stage data (under default setting) in the advanced menu: Airflow 875 CFM, Blower 687 RPM, Static pressure 0.34. This was fairly constant throughout the cool stage and did not go up or down much.

Fan speed, when not cooling reads the following:

High setting: Airflow 1450 CFM, Blower 1005 RPM, Static pressure 0.60, similarly:
Medium: 871 CFM, 687 RPM and 0.34 and
Low: 485 CFM, 369 RPM and 0.10.

Under the current default setting, the airflow appears "stuck" at medium during cooling, even if there is a significant difference between the set point and current temperatures. The installer told me that the single stage unit will dehumidify at low or medium blower speed and then kick up to higher cooling speed afterward. Last week, when it was 28C, I tried to drop the temperature to 23C and it couldn't do it...the blower speed never "kicked up".

I'm currently following up with the installer. My AC unit is Carrier 24ACC6 2.5T for 2300 sq ft house. I believe the evaporator coil is rated at 3.5T. The infinity controller, like I indicated before, has a -1C offset...I plan to continue monitoring when it gets hotter out.

[retroman80s]

Thanks Limoges_shopper & wasserware for the feedback.

I will be calling the company to complain.

I have a few more questions.
1) I was thinking of putting the AC on the ground. The ground is on a slight slope, so I would throw some gravel and a couple of slabs on top, then the AC. Is there anything else I would need to worry about ?

2)Since I have to lower the height of my AC, the copper tubes will need to be extended (about 1.5ft) and bent/curve downwards. Do you think there will be a big performance loss? I was told the more straighter the tube, the more efficient the AC will run.

[Michael60]

Being a "newbie" I am wondering, given that there has yet to be a response, whether or not the recommendation(s) which I am seeking in my message below are inappropriate for this forum or beyond the training and/or experience of the members of this forum? Please advise accordingly. Thanks.

Cheers!



I would be most appreciative of recommendations regarding cooling options for an ICF house (to be constructed) in which heating will be provided by hydronic in-floor radiant heating (via a natural gas-fired boiler)?

My wife is completely opposed to split air conditioning. Additionally, among the 'cons' that I've read about with respect to oft-recommended high-velocity systems are expense and reports of 'noisiness.' Perhaps you will comment on any experience that you have with high velocity AC systems.

Thanks.

Cheers!

[shoppingkart]

Let me know how your unit cools when it get hotter outside (we still have August coming up). Under the current default "Comfort" setting, I tried to drop the temperature under the following indoor conditions last night:

Indoor Temp: 25C, Humidity: 47%, 7:30pm, outdoor temp 25C.

Set temp hold on controller to 22C: after 4 hours, indoor temp 24C, Humidity 39%, outdoor temp 22C.

It is doing a very good job dehumidifying, but possibly not cooling effectively.

Cool stage data (under default setting) in the advanced menu: Airflow 875 CFM, Blower 687 RPM, Static pressure 0.34. This was fairly constant throughout the cool stage and did not go up or down much.

Fan speed, when not cooling reads the following:

High setting: Airflow 1450 CFM, Blower 1005 RPM, Static pressure 0.60, similarly:
Medium: 871 CFM, 687 RPM and 0.34 and
Low: 485 CFM, 369 RPM and 0.10.

Under the current default setting, the airflow appears "stuck" at medium during cooling, even if there is a significant difference between the set point and current temperatures. The installer told me that the single stage unit will dehumidify at low or medium blower speed and then kick up to higher cooling speed afterward. Last week, when it was 28C, I tried to drop the temperature to 23C and it couldn't do it...the blower speed never "kicked up".
I'm currently following up with the installer. My AC unit is Carrier 24ACC6 2.5T for 2300 sq ft house. I believe the evaporator coil is rated at 3.5T. The infinity controller, like I indicated before, has a -1C offset...I plan to continue monitoring when it gets hotter out.

The Carrier 96 furnace doesn’t run at low-medium-high blower speed, because it’s a variable speed and not multi speed blower. The tstat has three settings for cooling:
Comfort- max air flow 350 cfm/ton or lower if extra dehumidification is required (based on your tstat humidity level setting) in your case max 875cfm or lower
Economy-set air flow is 350cfm/ton and blower will not lower air flow to dehumidify in your case 875cfm
Maximum- set airflow is 400cfm/ton and blower will not lower air flow in your case 1000cfm

You could try to turn off the dehumidify option or set it higher on the tstat so the airflow always stay at 350cfm/ton or change the setting to maximum and see if it’s cools the house down to your set point faster.

[nighthawk26]

Being a "newbie" I am wondering, given that there has yet to be a response, whether or not the recommendation(s) which I am seeking in my message below are inappropriate for this forum or beyond the training and/or experience of the members of this forum? Please advise accordingly. Thanks.

Cheers!

For me, personally... it's all over my head. I'd IMAGINE Limoges Shopper would be the only possible one MAYBE.

[tojo]

The Carrier 96 furnace doesn’t run at low-medium-high blower speed, because it’s a variable speed and not multi speed blower. The tstat has three settings for cooling:
Comfort- max air flow 350 cfm/ton or lower if extra dehumidification is required (based on your tstat humidity level setting) in your case max 875cfm or lower
Economy-set air flow is 350cfm/ton and blower will not lower air flow to dehumidify in your case 875cfm
Maximum- set airflow is 400cfm/ton and blower will not lower air flow in your case 1000cfm

You could try to turn off the dehumidify option or set it higher on the tstat so the airflow always stay at 350cfm/ton or change the setting to maximum and see if it’s cools the house down to your set point faster.

Thank you...that is very useful information and helps me understand better how my system works. From your experience, what setting do you recommend? My thoughts are that for 90% of the time, keep it at Comfort, unless we are experiencing an extreme heatwave....in which case use "Maximum"?

[uncurruptable]

Hi,

I just moved into a new house, the AC does not seem to be working right.

I can feel the Air coming into the house but it is not cold. When I looked at the AC outside, the fan is not turning on, regardless of how hot the AC gets. There is a thin wire (I think the one that goes back into the AC for the heat discharge) and it is very hot while the AC is running. The Pipe running into the house (that carries cold air in) does not seem to be very cold.

My house would not get any warmer than 28 degree last night even though I had the AC set to 20.

Do you think i need a whole new AC or maybe a couple of bad parts?

Thanks

[Munchos]

Thanks Limoges_shopper & wasserware for the feedback.

I will be calling the company to complain.

I have a few more questions.
1) I was thinking of putting the AC on the ground. The ground is on a slight slope, so I would throw some gravel and a couple of slabs on top, then the AC. Is there anything else I would need to worry about ?

2)Since I have to lower the height of my AC, the copper tubes will need to be extended (about 1.5ft) and bent/curve downwards. Do you think there will be a big performance loss? I was told the more straighter the tube, the more efficient the AC will run.

1. Build a box. Bury half of it so it is level with the other half that is at ground level. Best way to do it. Then you can put your patio stones on top of it.

2. I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes more knowledge is bad.

Today, a day after posting to you about your ac, I had a furnace and ac re and re to do. Guess how they mounted the ac? Yep on the bricks. And guess what happened after I reclaimed the R22, unwired it, and cut the line-set? The bracket came out of the brick, the ac crushed my hand as it fell the three feet to the ground, and oil was everywhere. All because some idiot mounted the ac on brackets attached to the brick that were too wide, and the line-set/electrical were pretty much the only thing holding the ac up.

[Munchos]

Hi,

I just moved into a new house, the AC does not seem to be working right.

I can feel the Air coming into the house but it is not cold. When I looked at the AC outside, the fan is not turning on, regardless of how hot the AC gets. There is a thin wire (I think the one that goes back into the AC for the heat discharge) and it is very hot while the AC is running. The Pipe running into the house (that carries cold air in) does not seem to be very cold.

My house would not get any warmer than 28 degree last night even though I had the AC set to 20.

Do you think i need a whole new AC or maybe a couple of bad parts?

Thanks

Call some one to take a look at it. Nobody here can tell you what is wrong with it. It could be anything.

[uncurruptable]

Call some one to take a look at it. Nobody here can tell you what is wrong with it. It could be anything.

Thanks, I plan on doing that obviously. But what I was looking for was a little guidance. I always worried that some guy will come in and say I need a new AC when I don't really need one, but only a new part.

[funkylist]

Hey Munchos, hope you hand gets better. I really hate bad workmanship...




1. Build a box. Bury half of it so it is level with the other half that is at ground level. Best way to do it. Then you can put your patio stones on top of it.

2. I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes more knowledge is bad.

Today, a day after posting to you about your ac, I had a furnace and ac re and re to do. Guess how they mounted the ac? Yep on the bricks. And guess what happened after I reclaimed the R22, unwired it, and cut the line-set? The bracket came out of the brick, the ac crushed my hand as it fell the three feet to the ground, and oil was everywhere. All because some idiot mounted the ac on brackets attached to the brick that were too wide, and the line-set/electrical were pretty much the only thing holding the ac up.

[wasserware]

Muchos hope your hand is feeling better, can you tell us what brand that AC was and also the other guy who had the AC mounted on the wall? Drilling big bolts on the wall is just STUPID STUPID IDEA, you have al sorts of piping, wiring right behind the brick walls (which are decorative by nature) and thank god it didnt hit anything. If this was the us I am sure they will sued.

[Michael60]

For me, personally... it's all over my head. I'd IMAGINE Limoges Shopper would be the only possible one MAYBE.

Your response and your honesty are very appreciated, Nighthawk26.

Cheers!

[Munchos]

Thanks, I plan on doing that obviously. But what I was looking for was a little guidance. I always worried that some guy will come in and say I need a new AC when I don't really need one, but only a new part.

My guess would be an electrical issue since the fan is not working. Could be anything from a bad capacitor, contactor, loose wiring, condenser fan, breaker/fuse, low/high pressure switch if there is one,etc...

So without really looking at it, it is very tough to even begin where to give you some guidance. Depending on the age and cost of repair, you will have to decide wether to fix it or replace it. Every homeowner is different, and unfortunately, I see people spending a lot of money on old pieces of crap that should just be replace.

[shoppingkart]

Thank you...that is very useful information and helps me understand better how my system works. From your experience, what setting do you recommend? My thoughts are that for 90% of the time, keep it at Comfort, unless we are experiencing an extreme heatwave....in which case use "Maximum"?

I would use the comfort setting, but if humidity not an issue and you are concerned how fast the system cools the house down, try the maximum setting for a few days and see if it helps.

[retroman80s]

Hey Munchos

Thanks for the advise. I like your box idea, I will think about it doing that way.

I hope your hand gets better soon.

________________________________
Patio Project: http://tinyurl.com/nkc5l4


1. Build a box. Bury half of it so it is level with the other half that is at ground level. Best way to do it. Then you can put your patio stones on top of it.

2. I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes more knowledge is bad.

Today, a day after posting to you about your ac, I had a furnace and ac re and re to do. Guess how they mounted the ac? Yep on the bricks. And guess what happened after I reclaimed the R22, unwired it, and cut the line-set? The bracket came out of the brick, the ac crushed my hand as it fell the three feet to the ground, and oil was everywhere. All because some idiot mounted the ac on brackets attached to the brick that were too wide, and the line-set/electrical were pretty much the only thing holding the ac up.

[uncurruptable]

My guess would be an electrical issue since the fan is not working. Could be anything from a bad capacitor, contactor, loose wiring, condenser fan, breaker/fuse, low/high pressure switch if there is one,etc...

So without really looking at it, it is very tough to even begin where to give you some guidance. Depending on the age and cost of repair, you will have to decide wether to fix it or replace it. Every homeowner is different, and unfortunately, I see people spending a lot of money on old pieces of crap that should just be replace.

Thank Munchos

[Unnatural]

Question for Limoges_Shopper:

I'm about to get a media filter cabinet installed to replace my current basic filter rack. The cabinet I will have installed is 6 3/4" wide. But I have only 7 5/8" between the return duct and the furnace. I was wondering if I should ask the HVAC technician to install turning vanes ? Is it really necessary in my case ?

Here's the drawing of my current setup (you may remember this picture from a previous post):

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/2618/hvacmediacabinet.jpg

[Ohboiya]

OMG. There's 145 pages. Can someone point me to a link on IT server room cooling options/prices, etc? I have a 7x7 room with a 4.5 foot tall server rack full of equipment that needs cooling.

TIA!

[tojo]

I know that air conditioning combinations, depending on the furnace, coil and outdoor unit, will have different SEER ratings. Can someone with the available resourses be able to tell me the rating for the following combination:

Outdoor unit model #: Carrier 24ACC630
Indoor (Coil): CNPVA3014ACAABAA
Furnace 58MVB080-14.

Thanks in advance...

[halo five]

You can look it up in the technical manual for the air conditioner model you're interested in. Most manufacturers lhave a list cross-referenced to all of their current furnaces with SEER ratings for each.

[cats2cars]

Hi everyone,

Here's my dilemma. I purchased a Lennox Ac13 AC, 2 ton unit and it was installed at the beginning of June. For anyone who has experience with this unit or Lennox in general, do you find them to be noisy? The unit makes a loud rattling noise when the unit goes on and off. I had one of the techs out today and he says it isn't loud and that is normal. My neighbours' units are a lot quieter and in fact even units I've heard going into builder model homes (that are smaller) are quieter.
Do you have any recommendations or referrals to a reputable air conditioner technician that I could contact to have them come out and have a look for a reasonable price? Maybe the units are just this noisy and I'll have to live with this.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks
cats

[nighthawk26]

Hi everyone,

Here's my dilemma. I purchased a Lennox Ac13 AC, 2 ton unit and it was installed at the beginning of June. For anyone who has experience with this unit or Lennox in general, do you find them to be noisy? The unit makes a loud rattling noise when the unit goes on and off. I had one of the techs out today and he says it isn't loud and that is normal. My neighbours' units are a lot quieter and in fact even units I've heard going into builder model homes (that are smaller) are quieter.
Do you have any recommendations or referrals to a reputable air conditioner technician that I could contact to have them come out and have a look for a reasonable price? Maybe the units are just this noisy and I'll have to live with this.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks
cats

The thing is 76db. One of the loudest rated units out there. When I was a Lennox dealer I would not sell this to customers without being VERY clear about it, and would typically only sell the XC series. Not saying there ISN"T something wrong, but the compresser is VERY loud at startup and quite loud in general. This is a builder grade unit and as such is featured as one.

You say your neighbours units are quieter. Do they haev the same unit or different? If different, the reference is somewhat irrelevant.

[cats2cars]

Thanks for the quick response nighthawk, I checked the specs again and it actually the XC13 which I believe is rated at 74db.
My neighbours units are different so I guess it's hard to compare apples to apples but it's embarassing being the worst noise polluter in the neighbourhood.

[nighthawk26]

Thanks for the quick response nighthawk, I checked the specs again and it actually the XC13 which I believe is rated at 74db.
My neighbours units are different so I guess it's hard to compare apples to apples but it's embarassing being the worst noise polluter in the neighbourhood.

Althought he XC13 is a little louder than the 14 it should still certainly not be the worst one around you. Does have a sweeping fan blade and should have a compressor blanket. Unless it's not on the 13 SEER units. RARLY would I sell a 13 SEER so I could be mistaken, but I can tell you the XC14 is exceptionally quieter. My adive is to call Lennox and talk to them. Tell them your concerned that the dealer may not be 100% straight with whats going on and you'd like another dealer to come look at the unit. See what they have to say.

[cats2cars]

Thanks again.

I have a variable speed G71mpp furnace that I think bumps the rating up to 14 seer. It's one of those things that I probably should have done a little more research and gone with a XC 14 unit as a minimum. Oh well, live and learn I guess.
I'll follow your advice and contact Lennox and see if they can refer me to another dealer.

[911247666]

Brian
The air coming out my heat registers is not cold enough. I set my thermostat @ 26 C. what should the temperature coming out of the register be?

How much do you charge to top up the refridgerant. I live in Vaughan,

[vgorous]

^ you may need to recharge like you said.... but it could also be your evap or condensor coils needs cleaning.

[nighthawk26]

Brian
The air coming out my heat registers is not cold enough. I set my thermostat @ 26 C. what should the temperature coming out of the register be?

How much do you charge to top up the refridgerant. I live in Vaughan,

also, and most simple, check your filter.

[tojo]

I know that air conditioning combinations, depending on the furnace, coil and outdoor unit, will have different SEER ratings. Can someone with the available resources be able to tell me the rating for the following combination:

Outdoor unit model #: Carrier 24ACC630
Indoor (Coil): CNPVA3014ACAABAA
Furnace 58MVB080-14.

Thanks in advance...

I should have provided more details, but the reason I asked this question, is because I'm running into an issue with my installer....

I'd like to thank Visorboy, who provided some technical advice and also advised me to push the installer hard to get this settled. For now, I prefer not to mention the name, as I'm trying to find a diplomatic solution with them. Still, I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter, which will better equip me to challenge them or take them to task if I have to....

As I indicated these are the model #'s installed, about a month ago:
Outdoor unit model #: Carrier 24ACC630
Furnace 58MVB080-14
Indoor (Coil): CNPVU4221ACA

Right from the start, I had cooling problems...ie. set points could not be reached, even 23-24C, which is not that low...but dehumidifcation was great. I expressed concern to the installer, but was ignored.

About 3 weeks after installation, while the AC unit was operating, the system shutdown, with the Infinity Controller indicating a frozen coil condition.

I called the installer, but instead of being ignored, I was contacted back immediately and told to shut down the AC and run the fan only and to check the filter (which was fine). The service call arrived the next day. The problem was diagnosed as insufficient airflow, but at 875 CFM for a 2.5 ton AC (2300sq ft) in comfort setting, I thought it should be OK (knowing of course, I'm not the expert). The corrective action was to increase the blower setting via the Infinity controller to that of a 3.5 ton AC unit, therefore increasing the airflow (and possibly exceeding the operating conditions of the system?). The airflow now is close to 1300 CFM. The sweating at the plenum is now gone, and I do not have frozen coil condition anymore, but the airflow is very high and loud now. What I also discovered, when the serviceman opened the plenum, is that the coil # is different than the one on the invoice: CNPVA3014ACA instead of CNPVU4221ACA. I told the service guy that I thought this was unethical and close to fraud. He assured me that it was OK and that he would contact the manager and call me back after the weekend to discuss it. Well, you guessed it, they never called back. 4 days later, I contacted the manager and indicated that the system combination he gave me is not listed in the carrier website and that I had concerns over unit life expectancy / reliability, SEER efficiency, and more importantly - warranty coverage. His answer to my concern was:
- this had to be done because the existing plenum was too small for the coil indicated on the invoice (14" vs 21")
- he had to write down the stated coil in order to get my rebates.
- there is no concern over running the unit airflow as a 3.5 T unit.
- If they had to make the plenum larger to fit it, it would be big and ugly
- Carrier says the combination is acceptable.

However, he pretended to be sympathetic, not because there was a real technical concern, but because I was overly worried about this situation - he stated yesterday that he will call me middle next week after he contacts Carrier for more advice - he said he may consider changing the coil. I asked him to provide me with the model # before he starts anything.

Sorry for the long note...I want this to be resolved, but if anyone thinks there are other options, or if I'm over-reacting, please feel free to chime in. Thanks in advance....

[shoppingkart]

I should have provided more details, but the reason I asked this question, is because I'm running into an issue with my installer....

I'd like to thank Visorboy, who provided some technical advice and also advised me to push the installer hard to get this settled. For now, I prefer not to mention the name, as I'm trying to find a diplomatic solution with them. Still, I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter, which will better equip me to challenge them or take them to task if I have to....

As I indicated these are the model #'s installed, about a month ago:
Outdoor unit model #: Carrier 24ACC630
Furnace 58MVB080-14
Indoor (Coil): CNPVU4221ACA

Right from the start, I had cooling problems...ie. set points could not be reached, even 23-24C, which is not that low...but dehumidifcation was great. I expressed concern to the installer, but was ignored.

About 3 weeks after installation, while the AC unit was operating, the system shutdown, with the Infinity Controller indicating a frozen coil condition.

I called the installer, but instead of being ignored, I was contacted back immediately and told to shut down the AC and run the fan only and to check the filter (which was fine). The service call arrived the next day. The problem was diagnosed as insufficient airflow, but at 875 CFM for a 2.5 ton AC (2300sq ft) in comfort setting, I thought it should be OK (knowing of course, I'm not the expert). The corrective action was to increase the blower setting via the Infinity controller to that of a 3.5 ton AC unit, therefore increasing the airflow (and possibly exceeding the operating conditions of the system?). The airflow now is close to 1300 CFM. The sweating at the plenum is now gone, and I do not have frozen coil condition anymore, but the airflow is very high and loud now. What I also discovered, when the serviceman opened the plenum, is that the coil # is different than the one on the invoice: CNPVA3014ACA instead of CNPVU4221ACA. I told the service guy that I thought this was unethical and close to fraud. He assured me that it was OK and that he would contact the manager and call me back after the weekend to discuss it. Well, you guessed it, they never called back. 4 days later, I contacted the manager and indicated that the system combination he gave me is not listed in the carrier website and that I had concerns over unit life expectancy / reliability, SEER efficiency, and more importantly - warranty coverage. His answer to my concern was:
- this had to be done because the existing plenum was too small for the coil indicated on the invoice (14" vs 21")
- he had to write down the stated coil in order to get my rebates.
- there is no concern over running the unit airflow as a 3.5 T unit.
- If they had to make the plenum larger to fit it, it would be big and ugly
- Carrier says the combination is acceptable.

However, he pretended to be sympathetic, not because there was a real technical concern, but because I was overly worried about this situation - he stated yesterday that he will call me middle next week after he contacts Carrier for more advice - he said he may consider changing the coil. I asked him to provide me with the model # before he starts anything.

Sorry for the long note...I want this to be resolved, but if anyone thinks there are other options, or if I'm over-reacting, please feel free to chime in. Thanks in advance....

Your concerns are valid since you are dealing with hacks and not a professional company. The infinity controller automatically sets the correct airflow for the installed A/C (hence the name “communicating tstat”) so over riding it is just wrong. 1300CFM is insane, the dehumidification will be reduced and blower motor will need to work extra hard to maintain that airflow so you and up with higher power consumption and more noise. Coil freezing can happen when airflow is low, but also by a low charge in the system. Did they check the charge by sub cooling method the second time around? Since the unit worked fine for a few weeks it’s possible that there is a small leak in the system. Some question for you:
What type of filter are you using?
What is the static pressure in the system?
How wide is the plenum?

[tojo]

Your concerns are valid since you are dealing with hacks and not a professional company. The infinity controller automatically sets the correct airflow for the installed A/C (hence the name “communicating tstat”) so over riding it is just wrong. 1300CFM is insane, the dehumidification will be reduced and blower motor will need to work extra hard to maintain that airflow so you and up with higher power consumption and more noise. Coil freezing can happen when airflow is low, but also by a low charge in the system. Did they check the charge by sub cooling method the second time around? Since the unit worked fine for a few weeks it’s possible that there is a small leak in the system. Some question for you:
What type of filter are you using?
What is the static pressure in the system?
How wide is the plenum?

Hi Shoppingkart,

I do not know if he checked the charge by sub cooling, but he did check the charge for a while and seemed concerned over something. I know right from the start the system had trouble cooling, and the plenum had lots of condensation when the AC was on. The condensation now has mostly disappeared with the higher airflow.

The current readings are as follows:
Airflow 975cfm, blower 786rpm, pressure 0.47, with A/C on.

I throttled it back a bit on concern that the blower speed was too high.

Around the time of the frozen coil shut down, the reading was: Airflow 875, blower 786, pressure 0.57 - so the pressure was actually higher then, with lower airflow, I suppose due to ice buildup? It had actually shut down twice. First time it restarted and I decided to keep and eye on it. The airflow remained steady, but blower speed and pressure increased prior to the second shutdown around 1 or 2 hours after the first.

The plenum is 20 X 17 inches wide. The coil installed (not the one on the invoice) is 14" I believe. Not sure why they chose a 21" coil for the purpose of the invoice.
I have a 4" media filter - appears generic brand.

Thanks.

[shoppingkart]

Hi Shoppingkart,

I do not know if he checked the charge by sub cooling, but he did check the charge for a while and seemed concerned over something. I know right from the start the system had trouble cooling, and the plenum had lots of condensation when the AC was on. The condensation now has mostly disappeared with the higher airflow.

The current readings are as follows:
Airflow 975cfm, blower 786rpm, pressure 0.47, with A/C on.

I throttled it back a bit on concern that the blower speed was too high.

Around the time of the frozen coil shut down, the reading was: Airflow 875, blower 786, pressure 0.57 - so the pressure was actually higher then, with lower airflow, I suppose due to ice buildup? It had actually shut down twice. First time it restarted and I decided to keep and eye on it. The airflow remained steady, but blower speed and pressure increased prior to the second shutdown around 1 or 2 hours after the first.

The plenum is 20 X 17 inches wide. The coil installed (not the one on the invoice) is 14" I believe. Not sure why they chose a 21" coil for the purpose of the invoice.
I have a 4" media filter - appears generic brand.

Thanks.

The pressure readings are not great, but in the acceptable range, and air flow is maintained, so it’s hard to believe that low air flow caused the coil freezing. The max air flow for A/C in your set up is 1000CFM, so don’t let them talk you in to running it any higher. You can try lowering the static pressure by not using higher then 10MERV rated media filter and they could also replace the coil with a 17” and just make the plenum 1.5” wider. (14” coil static pressure drop when wet is .39 and the 17” is only .23) Good luck.

[janaka]

Unless he has a performance or infinity AC there is no communication so the furnace will not set itself up for the blower speed of the AC (you will have fan settings for "fan on" obviously. I *thought* the rule of thumb for cooling was 400cfm per ton of cooling, so a 2.5T needs approx 1000cfm, not 800.

If the dehumidification is great but you have never attained the temp setpoint then I'd assume that you have set the humidity too low which will cause: Constant running ac/fan, never hitting temp bc carrier's are made to hit humidity within a 2-3* variance from setpoint, condensing on the plenum (and possible PTO).

I know this because my best friend installed a MVC080 (3 stg infinity) and an APA3036 (perf 13 ac) and the installers set the humidity at the lowest setting. The house was only 30%RH but the ac NEVER shut off, never hit temp and plenum/PTO were condensing. I switched the humidity setting up two or three points (Infinity control isn't in %'s) and within two minutes the fan ramped down and the AC shut off after hitting set temp.

Food for thought.

[shoppingkart]

Unless he has a performance or infinity AC there is no communication so the furnace will not set itself up for the blower speed of the AC (you will have fan settings for "fan on" obviously. I *thought* the rule of thumb for cooling was 400cfm per ton of cooling, so a 2.5T needs approx 1000cfm, not 800.

Yes, the OP does not have a communicating unit, so the difference is that-the A/C size has to be manually entered in to controller, no outside temperature sensor and no self diagnostics, but the infinity controller will vary blower speed in cooling mode. Max airflow in Comfort setting is 875CFM for 2.5T but when dehumidification is active it can vary between around 600CFM to 875CFM depending on dehumidification demand .

If the dehumidification is great but you have never attained the temp setpoint then I'd assume that you have set the humidity too low which will cause: Constant running ac/fan, never hitting temp bc carrier's are made to hit humidity within a 2-3* variance from setpoint, condensing on the plenum (and possible PTO).

This is a good suggestion;OP did not mention the humidity settings, but setting the humidity too low should not cause the coil to freeze.

I know this because my best friend installed a MVC080 (3 stg infinity) and an APA3036 (perf 13 ac) and the installers set the humidity at the lowest setting. The house was only 30%RH but the ac NEVER shut off, never hit temp and plenum/PTO were condensing. I switched the humidity setting up two or three points (Infinity control isn't in %'s) and within two minutes the fan ramped down and the AC shut off after hitting set temp.

Food for thought.
.

[tojo]

Unless he has a performance or infinity AC there is no communication so the furnace will not set itself up for the blower speed of the AC (you will have fan settings for "fan on" obviously. I *thought* the rule of thumb for cooling was 400cfm per ton of cooling, so a 2.5T needs approx 1000cfm, not 800.

Yes, the OP does not have a communicating unit, so the difference is that-the A/C size has to be manually entered in to controller, no outside temperature sensor and no self diagnostics, but the infinity controller will vary blower speed in cooling mode. Max airflow in Comfort setting is 875CFM for 2.5T but when dehumidification is active it can vary between around 600CFM to 875CFM depending on dehumidification demand .

If the dehumidification is great but you have never attained the temp setpoint then I'd assume that you have set the humidity too low which will cause: Constant running ac/fan, never hitting temp bc carrier's are made to hit humidity within a 2-3* variance from setpoint, condensing on the plenum (and possible PTO).

This is a good suggestion;OP did not mention the humidity settings, but setting the humidity too low should not cause the coil to freeze.

I know this because my best friend installed a MVC080 (3 stg infinity) and an APA3036 (perf 13 ac) and the installers set the humidity at the lowest setting. The house was only 30%RH but the ac NEVER shut off, never hit temp and plenum/PTO were condensing. I switched the humidity setting up two or three points (Infinity control isn't in %'s) and within two minutes the fan ramped down and the AC shut off after hitting set temp.

Food for thought..

Yes the AC is in the Comfort series, so the installer had to manually enter it. It was initially entered as a 2.5T unit, prior to the coil freezing. Afterward, he bumped up the setting to 3.5T, to increase the airflow. I pulled it back to a 3.0T setting and left the humidity setting on default (middle) as it always was. The airflow now peaks at 975, and humidity can drop to 52% at best. It can hit a 24C set point without too much problem, even on a day like this. Basically, my concern is that the coil in the system is not the one on the receipt/invoice, which is compliant to all provincial, manufacture and Ontario Power rebates. Based on what shoppingkart and VisorBoy have told me, it appears the installer cheaped out on the coil and installation by stiffing me with an inferior coil, after promising me a system that meets all government/manufacture standards for efficiency - and also on the installation, by not discussing with me what needs to be done to set up the proper system. He took the easy way out, and tried to fix it by running the system over its recommended parameters. Right now I question the reliability, efficiency and warranty status of what I have, and never would have known it, if the coil had not froze up.

Perhaps I should have done more homework, but after reading reviews on this installer and speaking with people who had work done with them, I received nothing but positive comments about them - but right now, I would not recommend these guys to even my enemies :mad:. I will be speaking with them this week and hope to reach a satisfactory resolution.

Thanks to all who provided their input/suggestions.

[shoppingkart]

Yes the AC is in the Comfort series, so the installer had to manually enter it. It was initially entered as a 2.5T unit, prior to the coil freezing. Afterward, he bumped up the setting to 3.5T, to increase the airflow. I pulled it back to a 3.0T setting and left the humidity setting on default (middle) as it always was. The airflow now peaks at 975, and humidity can drop to 52% at best. It can hit a 24C set point without too much problem, even on a day like this. Basically, my concern is that the coil in the system is not the one on the receipt/invoice, which is compliant to all provincial, manufacture and Ontario Power rebates.

The coil listed on your invoice is oversized. I believe the best match for the SEER rating would be CNPVA3614ACA, so the installed coil might costing you 0.5 in SEER rating.

Based on what shoppingkart and VisorBoy have told me, it appears the installer cheaped out on the coil and installation by stiffing me with an inferior coil, after promising me a system that meets all government/manufacture standards for efficiency - and also on the installation, by not discussing with me what needs to be done to set up the proper system. He took the easy way out, and tried to fix it by running the system over its recommended parameters. Right now I question the reliability, efficiency and warranty status of what I have, and never would have known it, if the coil had not froze up.

Perhaps I should have done more homework, but after reading reviews on this installer and speaking with people who had work done with them, I received nothing but positive comments about them - but right now, I would not recommend these guys to even my enemies :mad:. I will be speaking with them this week and hope to reach a satisfactory resolution.

Finding a good installer is like a crapshoot. I personally know of 5 homeowners who choose recommended and established companies with more than 15years experience and ended up with installation problems. Wrong equipment installed, system not properly set up, bad install causing the furnace to shutdown and no heat for a week. Hope you have the 10year labour warranty from Carrier and not from the installing company.

Thanks to all who provided their input/suggestions.

.

[jimsmith]

hi i have an older carrier AC unit and the 370v 5/25 dual run capacitor is shot . i Know this because the top is bulging out not flat.so my question is where can i buy one to replace it ? i live in Georgetown and i went to the local hvac store and they told me that they could not sell one to me because i am not licensed. :mad: a1 parts in etobicoke has them but they are on inventory untill aug 23 .

[janaka]

.

firstly the quote didn't work.

secondly the Infinity furnace should have come with the exterior temp sensor especially with the infinity stat being purchased. No charge, just with it. I'd question the installer on that as well while you are talking to him/her next time maybe.

[tojo]

Finding a good installer is like a crapshoot. I personally know of 5 homeowners who choose recommended and established companies with more than 15years experience and ended up with installation problems. Wrong equipment installed, system not properly set up, bad install causing the furnace to shutdown and no heat for a week. Hope you have the 10year labour warranty from Carrier and not from the installing company.

No, I don't have 10 yr...just one year with installer - I cringe now just thinking about it. The install took place early-mid July. Do you know if it is possible to purchase or negotiate the labour warranty directly with Carrier? After this is settled, I don't want anything to do with the installing company. I know there is an option to take a 10year labour warranty in lieu of the manufacturer rebate. However, I believe the rebate is in process right now. Perhaps it can be reversed.

[nighthawk26]

No, I don't have 10 yr...just one year with installer - I cringe now just thinking about it. The install took place early-mid July. Do you know if it is possible to purchase or negotiate the labour warranty directly with Carrier? After this is settled, I don't want anything to do with the installing company. I know there is an option to take a 10year labour warranty in lieu of the manufacturer rebate. However, I believe the rebate is in process right now. Perhaps it can be reversed.

I'd get the installing company to redo the paperwork. Just have them file with Carrier saying they made a mistake as to you wanting the rebate instead of the waranty. I can tell you buying the warranty from Carrier will be more than double the rebate you got. The dealer should be able to work with the Carrier rep to sort things out for you. I'd be suprised if going that route didn't yeild the result you're looking for.

[chaseut]

Hi,

I am getting a central a/c, 2.5 ton installed. It is going to be mounted on brackets.

Do the mounting brackets need to be installed on the foundation? Or can it be installed on the brick veneer. Does this matter?

[wasserware]

Hi,

I am getting a central a/c, 2.5 ton installed. It is going to be mounted on brackets.

Do the mounting brackets need to be installed on the foundation? Or can it be installed on the brick veneer. Does this matter?

IT HAVE TO BE DONE ON THE FOUNDATION. Brick walls in Canadian houses are pure decorative items, not meant to hold up any significant weight like an AC.

[chaseut]

IT HAVE TO BE DONE ON THE FOUNDATION. Brick walls in Canadian houses are pure decorative items, not meant to hold up any significant weight like an AC.

They installed it on the brick veneer. The installer and I assume one of the owners said it was fine, and there would be no structural issues.

Now I'm torn. They would have to do the thing all over again?

DAMMIT.

Am I totally screwed here?

[atifkm]

Hi,

Can u tell me how many btu this unit have:

Carrier
Model # 38CKC024340
Sr. No. 1903E07441

Thanks.

[THE_click]

Hi,

Can u tell me how many btu this unit have:

Carrier
Model # 38CKC024340
Sr. No. 1903E07441

Thanks.



www.carrier.ca :D

[shoppingkart]

Hi,

Can u tell me how many btu this unit have:

Carrier
Model # 38CKC024340
Sr. No. 1903E07441

Thanks.

24000BTU/2Ton unit

[shoppingkart]

They installed it on the brick veneer. The installer and I assume one of the owners said it was fine, and there would be no structural issues.

Now I'm torn. They would have to do the thing all over again?

DAMMIT.

Am I totally screwed here?


Yes, ask them to move it.

[THE_click]

Yes, ask them to move it.

There has to be types of brick which support brackets.. you see them all the time in downtown areas.. sometimes there's not enough space for the unit on the ground. :confused:

[nighthawk26]

There has to be types of brick which support brackets.. you see them all the time in downtown areas.. sometimes there's not enough space for the unit on the ground. :confused:

None... these are clay bricks. If you see them they are either in the foundation and you haven't looked close, or they were jobs done by hacks. In the GTA, there are A LOT of hacks.

[wasserware]

There has to be types of brick which support brackets.. you see them all the time in downtown areas.. sometimes there's not enough space for the unit on the ground. :confused:

The old house in downtown (or houses in Asia) are build of solid brick walls where it is the main structure of the building. Modern houses are only "BRICK CLAD" where the brick is purely a decorative effect and is NOT MEANT TO WITHSTAND any heavy structural loads at all.

Drilling big bolts into the brick walls may pose the danger of rupturing water pipes, hitting wiring etc. Call the company BACK ASAP to have to move it and please tell us who did it.

[Nates]

Could a standard 13 SEER air conditioner (Comfort-Aire) be considered an item "of equal of greater quality" to an Energy-Star (Lennox) 14 SEER air conditioner?

My builder is making this substitute (for building code reasons), but with no compensation. Perhaps the energy-savings will be minimal, but I don't see how the new unit meets the requirement for new homes of 'equal or greater quality'.

I'm not sure I should sign the Request for Change that I'm being told to sign.

Note: 13 SEER is a side discharge unit vs. the 14 SEER traditional unit.

[janaka]

Could a standard 13 SEER air conditioner (Comfort-Aire) be considered an item "of equal of greater quality" to an Energy-Star (Lennox) 14 SEER air conditioner?

My builder is making this substitute (for building code reasons), but with no compensation. Perhaps the energy-savings will be minimal, but I don't see how the new unit meets the requirement for new homes of 'equal or greater quality'.

I'm not sure I should sign the Request for Change that I'm being told to sign.

Note: 13 SEER is a side discharge unit vs. the 14 SEER traditional unit.

No they are not equal (Lennox clearly more efficient) let alone of greater quality.

Get the model #'s, maybe the side discharge is a quieter unit...but it'll still cost more to run.
Fight that BS.

[Nates]

Could a standard 13 SEER air conditioner (Comfort-Aire) be considered an item "of equal of greater quality" to an Energy-Star (Lennox) 14 SEER air conditioner?

My builder is making this substitute (for building code reasons), but with no compensation. Perhaps the energy-savings will be minimal, but I don't see how the new unit meets the requirement for new homes of 'equal or greater quality'.

I'm not sure I should sign the Request for Change that I'm being told to sign.

Note: 13 SEER is a side discharge unit vs. the 14 SEER traditional unit.


No they are not equal (Lennox clearly more efficient) let alone of greater quality.

Get the model #'s, maybe the side discharge is a quieter unit...but it'll still cost more to run.
Fight that BS.


Thank you for your reply. You are correct that the side discharge is quieter, as you suggested.

The Lennox was to be the 14ACX model. Meanwhile, the 13 SEER Comfort-Aire is the CMA Series, either CMA18SA or CMA24SA (I only received the CMA series general spec sheet).

I guess if a person wants quiet, the Comfort Aire does win out. But I don't know that that is enough, overall (given the make & energy rating of the Lennox), to qualify it as 'equal or greater value'.

(That said, it is going on the condo balcony (all units) so maybe the trade-off IS worth it...).

[retroman80s]

Where can i get the AC copper tubing insulation (the thicker kind). I when to RONA, they only had the kind for hot water tube. Can I used this for the AC tubing?

[chaseut]

We would just like to add that the company in fact did move it at our request and they did a great job at it.

We asked politely and they gave us NO trouble whatsoever! NONE. They replied in a calm manner and said that whatever makes the customer happy.

I thought maybe they would charge us extra... but they did it for free despite the extra half day of work.

[Limoges_shopper]

There has to be types of brick which support brackets.. you see them all the time in downtown areas.. sometimes there's not enough space for the unit on the ground. :confused:


None... these are clay bricks. If you see them they are either in the foundation and you haven't looked close, or they were jobs done by hacks. In the GTA, there are A LOT of hacks.


The old house in downtown (or houses in Asia) are build of solid brick walls where it is the main structure of the building. Modern houses are only "BRICK CLAD" where the brick is purely a decorative effect and is NOT MEANT TO WITHSTAND any heavy structural loads at all.

Drilling big bolts into the brick walls may pose the danger of rupturing water pipes, hitting wiring etc. Call the company BACK ASAP to have to move it and please tell us who did it.

If the brick wall starts real low to the ground, then they shall have to dig a couple holes, and mount the bracket in the foundation wall - no excuses! :mad:

[wasserware]

We would just like to add that the company in fact did move it at our request and they did a great job at it.

We asked politely and they gave us NO trouble whatsoever! NONE. They replied in a calm manner and said that whatever makes the customer happy.

I thought maybe they would charge us extra... but they did it for free despite the extra half day of work.

Glad to see it come to a good ending. They probably know what they did is 100% against all sorts of building codes and could potentially damage your house as well.

[Limoges_shopper]

We would just like to add that the company in fact did move it at our request and they did a great job at it.

We asked politely and they gave us NO trouble whatsoever! NONE. They replied in a calm manner and said that whatever makes the customer happy.

I thought maybe they would charge us extra... but they did it for free despite the extra half day of work.

hmmmm... What a way to save face... They did what was needed, but didn't fess up to the fact that they screwed up in the first place... This is basically saying "you are an idiot, this is OK, but we'll do whatever it takes to make you happy.". It should have been an apology - but then they might have been worried you would take legal action against them... hehe!
But, all is well that ends well - that's all that matters in the end.

How did the holes in the brick get filled in? I hope not with silicone: you need to have the right stuff put in there, and I think it's a parging cement. You can actually get the stuff in a tube that fits into the silicone guns.

[atifkm]

Hi,
We just moved in a house and there is a switch just beside the furnace.
Not sure which this is for, but once we on or off, we heard a little continuous sound from furnce. Attaching the pics. Can you guide, what this is for.
Thanks.
Pics attached.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38091750@N07/4931067030/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38091750@N07/4931067240/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38091750@N07/4930476969/

[rvs007]

Hi,
We just moved in a house and there is a switch just beside the furnace.
Not sure which this is for, but once we on or off, we heard a little continuous sound from furnce. Attaching the pics. Can you guide, what this is for.
Thanks.
Pics attached.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38091750@N07/4931067030/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38091750@N07/4931067240/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38091750@N07/4930476969/

Looks like the main on/off switch for the furnace.

[atifkm]

Looks like the main on/off switch for the furnace.

Hi,
Even if we kept the switch at upper floor off, what does that continuous sound, if we start that swithc on. It's not like the furnace start on, when we keep the switch on, but looks like some component sound. Is that normal or is that for dehumidifer?

[rvs007]

Hi,
Even if we kept the switch at upper floor off, what does that continuous sound, if we start that swithc on. It's not like the furnace start on, when we keep the switch on, but looks like some component sound. Is that normal or is that for dehumidifer?

Does the "component sound" sound like a fan? Perhaps you have the fan set to ON intead of AUTO so the fan is continuously running even if the furnace is not on?

[atifkm]

Does the "component sound" sound like a fan? Perhaps you have the fan set to ON intead of AUTO so the fan is continuously running even if the furnace is not on?

Fan switch is turned off. No it doesn't sound like fan, but look like some sound of a transformer or some compont, but not fan for sure.

Does this related to humidifier, but i think furnace has to turned on for that case, right.

Does furnace has a separate switch at basement, normally.

[shoppingkart]

Fan switch is turned off. No it doesn't sound like fan, but look like some sound of a transformer or some compont, but not fan for sure.

Does this related to humidifier, but i think furnace has to turned on for that case, right.

Does furnace has a separate switch at basement, normally.

Are you hearing a low “humming” sound? It’s normal, nothing to worry about.

[janaka]

Fan switch is turned off. No it doesn't sound like fan, but look like some sound of a transformer or some compont, but not fan for sure.

Does this related to humidifier, but i think furnace has to turned on for that case, right.

Does furnace has a separate switch at basement, normally.

The furnace has to have a separate kill switch (light switch) by code in the basement.

The humidifier needs at least the fan to be operating in order to humidify the air.

[atifkm]

Are you hearing a low “humming” sound? It’s normal, nothing to worry about.

Yes, it's a light continuous humming sound. So it's normal.

[Lumber-jack]

I am hoping Limoges or Nighthawk will be able to point me in the right direction:

I was getting a quote on a new furnace and the person told me my hot water tank was too close to my furnace. I moved it myself a few years ago to save some space and he informed me that it must be 24" away by code - it is 18" now. I am wondering what my options are as I asked him since the new furnance would be smaller wouldn't I gain some space between the two? He told me it wouldn't be as tall but didn't think that I would have 24" between the two pieces. Are they not to code and what can I do to bring it up to code? I really don't want to have to move the hot water tank again and am wondering if it isn't to code because they are both combustible? Would I be able to make a heat shield out of metal for example and leave both things where they are? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

Here is some pictures of my furnace and water tank

http://picasaweb.google.com/100740533183762664354/Furnace#

A couple of other things I would like confirmation on:

1. The guy told me he didn't need to do a heat loss calculations since I live in a Minto home and he is very familiar with this model in Ottawa. I know Limoges Guy recommends a heat loss calculation and I was going to attempt to do it myself since I don't think my condo is as complicated as a detached home. That being said do you still think that I should get one done?
2. He told me that running my fan all the time costs about $600 in electricity approximately and switching to a DC motor on the new furnace will save a considerable amount of money.
3. He suggested that the intake duct work be changed where it goes into the furnace so that it is the same size as the rest of the duct work. This made sense to me and I will do this when I get the new furnace installed.

Comments or suggestions greatly appreciate
mikE

[Pete_Coach]

I am hoping Limoges or Nighthawk will be able to point me in the right direction:

I was getting a quote on a new furnace and the person told me my hot water tank was too close to my furnace. I moved it myself a few years ago to save some space and he informed me that it must be 24" away by code - it is 18" now. I am wondering what my options are as I asked him since the new furnance would be smaller wouldn't I gain some space between the two? He told me it wouldn't be as tall but didn't think that I would have 24" between the two pieces. Are they not to code and what can I do to bring it up to code? I really don't want to have to move the hot water tank again and am wondering if it isn't to code because they are both combustible? Would I be able to make a heat shield out of metal for example and leave both things where they are? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

Here is some pictures of my furnace and water tank

http://picasaweb.google.com/100740533183762664354/Furnace#

A couple of other things I would like confirmation on:

1. The guy told me he didn't need to do a heat loss calculations since I live in a Minto home and he is very familiar with this model in Ottawa. I know Limoges Guy recommends a heat loss calculation and I was going to attempt to do it myself since I don't think my condo is as complicated as a detached home. That being said do you still think that I should get one done?
2. He told me that running my fan all the time costs about $600 in electricity approximately and switching to a DC motor on the new furnace will save a considerable amount of money.
3. He suggested that the intake duct work be changed where it goes into the furnace so that it is the same size as the rest of the duct work. This made sense to me and I will do this when I get the new furnace installed.

Comments or suggestions greatly appreciate
mikE
Why don't you get limoges_shopper (Factory Furnace Direct) to come out and give you a quote?
I think that a new furnace will not have an "intake" duct as they are all high efficiency and only have PVC piping for intake and exhaust. I think the code may be changed, as the two components no longer will use the same source for intake air. The furnace directly form outside and your tanks still form inside. Your hot water tank will also be the only thing using the existing chimney after the retrofit.

[janaka]

The furnace does have to have 24" of clearance to the front of it by code. There's no getting around it, either the furnace needs to be set back to gain the clearance (tranisition for the return air and plenum required) or you move the tank.
i'd look at replacing (enlarging) the drop and boot when the new furnace goes in as well as it looks a little small (cold air return).

[sacabeans]

Hey everyone,

I have a 6 month old Lennox, about a 3 month old vented water heater (rented from Embridge) and a noticed that I had some moisture in my furnace area. I originally thought the close proximity of the water heater to the furnace was causing condensation but a few days ago I saw a drip. I put a bucket under the drip and it was 1/2 full by the next day.

The drip is occurring from a black water tube that is attached to the upper part of the furance piping. Now it appears that the pipe is somehow linked to hot water as I believe the leak happens when the hot water tank is refilling. The black flex water pipe is attached to the furnace piping sheet metal by a what looks like a rubber bolt. I have not tried to tighten it yet as I dont know if I will make it worse.

Can anyone give me any insight on this problem? Also I need to know if I should be calling on the furnace warranty or Enbridge to come and fix it. I dont want to charged a service call when they come and say it is the other peoples fault.

Thanks

[janaka]

post a picture please.

[Tiberius]

OK - I'm looking to the forum 'experts' to get their thoughts on this situation, and what a reputable company *should* do for their customer in this situation.

The situation is fairly simple. An A/C unit was installed based on the sizing the HVAC company recommended. The reality of the performance of the A/C unit in the home is that on any day we have had where the temp is 27/28 or above (most days this summer!!), the A/C can NOT maintain the set temperature on the thermostat. If we set the Thermostat to 74, the temperature starts to creep up throughout the day to 76/77/78/79 and the A/C has to run NON-STOP all day. If we raise the thermostat setting to 78, the same occurs (it runs non-stop, and can't ever knock the temp down enough to stop the A/C from running... and eventually the temp actually climbs to 79, etc.)

The bottom line is: the A/C can NOT cool the house the average days we are having. It has no hope of even hitting the temperatures I am setting the thermostat too. This means I am paying a fortune for the non-stop a/c running, to not even get the desired result.

The installer came out to check things out and felt the described situation didn't sound right, and he checked everything, and confirmed everything is "correct". The pressures for the gas were correct, the vents are open, the thermostat is functioning correctly, etc, etc... Everything is fine and working as it should.

He then states I should put wood shutters on my windows and other such home alteration suggestions as the "fix"! The windows on my home did NOT change after they recommended the A/C sizing for my home.

I personally feel they should upsize the A/C unit so it can handle the cooling requirements of my home (so it can perhaps actually cool the house, and get a break for a few minutes each day!). Is this reasonable?? I am "stuck" with the unit they installed based on their sizing recommendation when it clearly does not do the job? Am I unreasonable to think they should resize the unit?

I feel frustrated that I paid for this A/C, and yet it does not do the job I paid for it to do. It also costs a fortune due to the continuous run time it has - for not evening getting the results it should provide. Textbook sizing be damned - I have lived in MANY houses and they all could maintain 72 degrees with the A/C unit actually being able to shut off for periods of time.

I am so far from the opposite extreme where you want the A/C to run enough to remove humidity that the "properly balanced/sized" argument seems ridiculous to me. It's clear I'm on the other side of the sizing balance equation!

Thanks for any knowledgeable feedback on this. I just don't see the problem with putting in a larger unit so it can do the job correctly - instead of having an unhappy customer?

[janaka]

why not tell us the specs of the house (age size direction etc) and the furnace model as well as the AC model too

I can tell you that my best friend installed a 3ton ac for his home which is properly sized but it wouldnt' cool the house down due to the bad furnace he was running. Installed a new furnace and the AC worked as designed.

If this is a new home then I'd be interested to know if the furnace is capable of moving the CFM needed to make the unit operate efficiently/effectively.

AC is only 1/3 the equation, furnace and ductwork are the others

[Tiberius]

- 3 year old home.
- 1600 square foot raised bungalow.
- the direction is pretty much facing west. From noon onwards the sun does come in through large windows on the front of the house - plainly there for the HVAC people to see though.
- 91 efficiency furnance (Ultra brand?) - a builders special of some sort I'm sure
- The A/C was a 2.0 ton unit and a 13 SEER.

Air flow is definitely noticeable at the vents and my understanding is that the a/c uses a slower blower speed anyway (than heating)? There are absolutely no heating issues in the winter - it actually is an incredibly efficient house to heat - the furnace does not have to run long and the house is Very air tight and well insulated.


why not tell us the specs of the house (age size direction etc) and the furnace model as well as the AC model too

I can tell you that my best friend installed a 3ton ac for his home which is properly sized but it wouldnt' cool the house down due to the bad furnace he was running. Installed a new furnace and the AC worked as designed.

If this is a new home then I'd be interested to know if the furnace is capable of moving the CFM needed to make the unit operate efficiently/effectively.

AC is only 1/3 the equation, furnace and ductwork are the others

[janaka]

- 3 year old home.
- 1600 square foot raised bungalow.
- the direction is pretty much facing west. From noon onwards the sun does come in through large windows on the front of the house - plainly there for the HVAC people to see though.
- 91 efficiency furnance (Ultra brand?) - a builders special of some sort I'm sure
- The A/C was a 2.0 ton unit and a 13 SEER.

Air flow is definitely noticeable at the vents and my understanding is that the a/c uses a slower blower speed anyway (than heating)? There are absolutely no heating issues in the winter - it actually is an incredibly efficient house to heat - the furnace does not have to run long and the house is Very air tight and well insulated.

unfortunately the ability to heat has very little to do with the ability to cool.

1600 sq/ft even with lots of windows as new homes usually do I'd be hard pressed to recommend anything over a 2 ton as well. I know many people who would even suggest/quote on 1.5ton (not that they are right by any means, just speaking from experience). AC's need approximately 400 cfm per ton of cooling, so you need at least 800cfm which shouldn't be an issue for any furnace IF SETUP properly. Sometimes installers don't change the fan speed for cooling from the manufacturer's as shipped specs. This can be a big issue. I know that I changed pretty much ALL the fan settings on my furnace for both heating and cooling to get optimal performance. A majority won't do this for laziness.

If you are dead set that its wrong in size pay the cost to have an engineering cooling load done on the house and take that information to the company and SHOW them they are wrong in sizing. Otherwise its your word against there's unfortunately IMO. I know if it was our company we most likely would just swap compressors out and be done with it.

However I have to say I'm amazed a 2ton can't satisfy a 1600sq/ft house unless you don't turn it on until the house is at temp and then want it to drop temps while its at peak exterior temps. That is unrealistic.

what is the model # of the coil and compressor?

[Munchos]

- 3 year old home.
- 1600 square foot raised bungalow.
- the direction is pretty much facing west. From noon onwards the sun does come in through large windows on the front of the house - plainly there for the HVAC people to see though.
- 91 efficiency furnance (Ultra brand?) - a builders special of some sort I'm sure
- The A/C was a 2.0 ton unit and a 13 SEER.

Air flow is definitely noticeable at the vents and my understanding is that the a/c uses a slower blower speed anyway (than heating)? There are absolutely no heating issues in the winter - it actually is an incredibly efficient house to heat - the furnace does not have to run long and the house is Very air tight and well insulated.

Two tons sounds like it should be adequate for you house. Actually, its harder to push cold air, so the furnace fan needs to be on high speed. Your board will have a cool, heat, continuous (maybe) terminal on the board. It's possible the fan speed is wrong and not on high speed. Have you checked the filter? Blower fan wheel dirty? How many btu's is the furnace (60 000k?) What's the temperature drop across the coil? Is it R22 or 410a refrigerant? What were the PSIG of the refrigerant on his gauges? Where is the location of the thermostat? Sun shining on it during the day? What is the temperature in the room where the thermostat is?

There are SO many little things to take into account when it comes to trouble shooting a situation like yours. Usually it is just the simplest of things that causes a problem that someone has overlooked. What type of ac is it?

[Tiberius]

Two tons sounds like it should be adequate for you house. Actually, its harder to push cold air, so the furnace fan needs to be on high speed. Your board will have a cool, heat, continuous (maybe) terminal on the board. It's possible the fan speed is wrong and not on high speed. Have you checked the filter? Blower fan wheel dirty? How many btu's is the furnace (60 000k?) What's the temperature drop across the coil? Is it R22 or 410a refrigerant? What were the PSIG of the refrigerant on his gauges? Where is the location of the thermostat? Sun shining on it during the day? What is the temperature in the room where the thermostat is?

There are SO many little things to take into account when it comes to trouble shooting a situation like yours. Usually it is just the simplest of things that causes a problem that someone has overlooked. What type of ac is it?

I'll answer the few I can from memory.

It's a Lennox A/C unit (13 SEER, 2 tonne, R420).
The furnace I believe is 67,000 BTU (from memory)
On his gauges, he actually said the pressures he expected and then showed me the results and they were pretty much what he said he expected (I seem to recall 150 and 100 as the numbers?)

The room with the thermostat is a large open concept area that has the big window that catches the sun all day (so it would be the warmest room in the house) - but if the thermostat was moved elsewhere, that room would still not get cooled.

The house is 1600 sqft on the main floor, but has 1100+ sqft in the basement (I know - that doesn't count)....

I guess it could be that they don't have the fan speed set correctly, but I doubt it would be off by much if it could be "tuned" to a more optimal speed.

[janaka]

I'll answer the few I can from memory.

It's a Lennox A/C unit (13 SEER, 2 tonne, R420).
The furnace I believe is 67,000 BTU (from memory)
On his gauges, he actually said the pressures he expected and then showed me the results and they were pretty much what he said he expected (I seem to recall 150 and 100 as the numbers?)

The room with the thermostat is a large open concept area that has the big window that catches the sun all day (so it would be the warmest room in the house) - but if the thermostat was moved elsewhere, that room would still not get cooled.

The house is 1600 sqft on the main floor, but has 1100+ sqft in the basement (I know - that doesn't count)....

I guess it could be that they don't have the fan speed set correctly, but I doubt it would be off by much if it could be "tuned" to a more optimal speed.

don't go from memory get us facts and model #'s if you'd like the best help possible.

when was the filter changed last?

[sumfunny]

Is it worthwhile to add an air return duct in the basement? Recently purchased an older home and the home inspector noted that their was no return air in the basement.

[janaka]

Is it worthwhile to add an air return duct in the basement? Recently purchased an older home and the home inspector noted that their was no return air in the basement.

yes and make sure its to the floor

[sumfunny]

yes and make sure its to the floor

Thanks - any general sense on cost to have it installed? It is a finished basement but principally broken off into a living room representing ~1/2 the basement and then a bedroom, storage and bathroom representing the rest. There is a wall separating the furnace from the living room.

[Slotback]

I think i have a problem with my AC unit. My basement is like a fridge, my main floor is cool, but my upstairs is like a sauna. I've gone ahead and opened up some kind of flapper (sorry, I don't know much about this stuff), and the air flow again isn't that much better. I was thinking maybe I have to change the air filter in the furnace...can you help narrow down the problem?

details:

House approximately 8 years old
AC unit installed by 3rd party
Problem hasn't always existed (outside of one room - whole different story).
I have dirrect energy but not for HVAC...should I sign up for it?

[janaka]

I think i have a problem with my AC unit. My basement is like a fridge, my main floor is cool, but my upstairs is like a sauna. I've gone ahead and opened up some kind of flapper (sorry, I don't know much about this stuff), and the air flow again isn't that much better. I was thinking maybe I have to change the air filter in the furnace...can you help narrow down the problem?

details:

House approximately 8 years old
AC unit installed by 3rd party
Problem hasn't always existed (outside of one room - whole different story).
I have dirrect energy but not for HVAC...should I sign up for it?
Change the furnace filter
close ALL basement vents
close ALL bathroom vents in house
close most (if not all) vents on the main level


Check your cold air returns to make sure they are "sucking" air on the upstairs level. I would assume the cold air return(s) upstairs aren't doing much if anything which is why your top level isn't cooling down (No matter how much cold air you put up there if you aren't pulling the hot air down you won't be comfortable). One way to test is to turn the fan to ON (should be anyway IMO) and then take a tissue to each cold air return and see if it will hold it to the grill (proving suction). If its weak or none then you have found the primary cause for the different stratosphere's as I call them. If that is the case I would first go and close off (block) the basement cold air return and re-test (this forces the furnace to suck air from the other cold air returns). Try blocking others off as well to force it to pull from upstairs.

Best part is these are ALL things average joe homeowner can do in an afternoon. Good luck

[luck11]

Hi. I have a Rheem Classic 90 Plus Series Contour Furnace, model RGFD - 10EZCMS, and the blower motor will not run. If the thermostat is set to AC, the A/C unit outside will turn on but no blower on the furnace. If on HEAT, the gas ignites, but no blower. FAN ON, no blower. I removed the cover and the display on the control board flashes 81, 68, 81, 68 then solid F for about 4 seconds then continues flashing just 81 over and over. The back panel lists a bunch of codes, and it seems code "68" under "ICM Feed-back signal" means "no signal". Code 81 is listed under "thermistors" and means "return air sensor - out of range. "F" means "System Fan - no heat or cool cycle - fan on", which is correct because I had the thermostat set to FAN ON at the time.

Anyone have any idea what I am dealing with here? Is my blower motor shot?

Thx.

[bririp]

Two tons sounds like it should be adequate for you house. Actually, its harder to push cold air, so the furnace fan needs to be on high speed. Your board will have a cool, heat, continuous (maybe) terminal on the board. It's possible the fan speed is wrong and not on high speed. Have you checked the filter? Blower fan wheel dirty? How many btu's is the furnace (60 000k?) What's the temperature drop across the coil? Is it R22 or 410a refrigerant? What were the PSIG of the refrigerant on his gauges? Where is the location of the thermostat? Sun shining on it during the day? What is the temperature in the room where the thermostat is?

There are SO many little things to take into account when it comes to trouble shooting a situation like yours. Usually it is just the simplest of things that causes a problem that someone has overlooked. What type of ac is it?

The fan doesn't have to be on high speed, it has to be set on the proper setting. Some furnaces are capable for running A/C systems up to 5 ton, but you are only installing a 3 ton a/c. The rule of thumb is 400cfm/ton. Please make sure this is adjusted for your equipment.

[frogfrog]

I need professional advice of a new furnance. Any insight would be appreciated.

My house is a 3 storey townhouse total 1800 sf with no basement , end unit. The furnace is tagged unsafe by direct energy as carbon monoxide level <1000ppm. It is a builder provided and is 12 years old. The motor is very nosiy and the technician didn't recommend a repair.

I am researching for what brand/model of furnance is good for my house. By saying that, each contractor carry 1 or 2 brand only. I am planning to invite 2 quotes and I am in Richmond Hill. Is York a decent built or any other suggestion?

[janaka]

I need professional advice of a new furnance. Any insight would be appreciated.

My house is a 3 storey townhouse total 1800 sf with no basement , end unit. The furnace is tagged unsafe by direct energy as carbon monoxide level <1000ppm. It is a builder provided and is 12 years old. The motor is very nosiy and the technician didn't recommend a repair.

I am researching for what brand/model of furnance is good for my house. By saying that, each contractor carry 1 or 2 brand only. I am planning to invite 2 quotes and I am in Richmond Hill. Is York a decent built or any other suggestion?

1000PPM! OMG be thankful to be alive. A furnace will be tagged at over 7-9 PPM!!! 1000! WOW

I sell York and its a good product, the YP9C Affinity model is IMO a great product, as are Carrier, Lennox and American Standard (thats for our local AS guru ;))

IMO definitely get a DC (variable speed, ECM) motor and at least a 2stage gas valve, if you can afford modulating I'd get that, IMO. Carriers 3stage (ICS model) isn't worth the premium on it however (my best friend HAS this furnace, fwiw so I can speak from experience)

My top 3 furnace recommendations in no order; Carrier MVB, York YP9C, Lennox G71

[frogfrog]

I am lucky to have a home inspector strongly advised me to have the furnace checked by direct energy before I waived my inspection condition. He spotted something .....that triggered the finding...it's life threatening. The seller is never in town for winter..probably explained why he is still alive.


For York, a contractor suggested TM9V at $3400or TG9S $2600 including installation (15ft pipe) if going without government rebate. Any comment to these model or cost ? or other alternative/comparable in price?

[A3Scott]

Is it better to undersize the furnace and a/c ?

I am about to replace my 20+ year old furnace and a/c in my 1950's raised bungalow. I'm also replacing all the ducts/returns because I'm relocating the furnace and the previous owner had butchered the existing system. The house is approx 1400sqft. I've had a certified HVAC designer come in a plan for my new system. I have decided on York YP9C Modulating furnace and a York YCJF a/c. I've had three quotes and received some different advice. One company suggested an 80K btu furnace and a 2 tonne a/c . Another suggested a 60K btu furnance and a 1.5 tonne a/c. The second company indicated undersizing the a/c and the furnace would be more efficient. The HVAC designer scoped the house for a 75K btu furnace and a 2 tonne a/c. The $$ saving is not huge when it comes to the cost of the units.

Thanks, Andrew

[janaka]

I am lucky to have a home inspector strongly advised me to have the furnace checked by direct energy before I waived my inspection condition. He spotted something .....that triggered the finding...it's life threatening. The seller is never in town for winter..probably explained why he is still alive.


For York, a contractor suggested TM9V at $3400or TG9S $2600 including installation (15ft pipe) if going without government rebate. Any comment to these model or cost ? or other alternative/comparable in price?

TM9V is a two stage and variable speed furnace. It will qualify for both OPA and Eco-Energy Rebates. I would highly suggest that model over the TG9S which is a single stage AC motor.

[janaka]

Is it better to undersize the furnace and a/c ?

I am about to replace my 20+ year old furnace and a/c in my 1950's raised bungalow. I'm also replacing all the ducts/returns because I'm relocating the furnace and the previous owner had butchered the existing system. The house is approx 1400sqft. I've had a certified HVAC designer come in a plan for my new system. I have decided on York YP9C Modulating furnace and a York YCJF a/c. I've had three quotes and received some different advice. One company suggested an 80K btu furnace and a 2 tonne a/c . Another suggested a 60K btu furnance and a 1.5 tonne a/c. The second company indicated undersizing the a/c and the furnace would be more efficient. The HVAC designer scoped the house for a 75K btu furnace and a 2 tonne a/c. The $$ saving is not huge when it comes to the cost of the units.

Thanks, Andrew

If the HVAC designer did a heat loss and calculated that you NEED 75k BTU then I'd go 80k. I would have guessed a 60k and a 2ton based on age/size alone but there are many other factors that I'm not aware of which makes my computer opinion pretty worthless. I would have guessed your head load in the 55k range not nearly 50% higher at 75k...

If your designer did not do a heat load calc for you kick them in the shin. The nice thing about the YP9C is that it will only ever use as much capacity as needed so oversizing isn't a HUGE concern but there is a 'proper' for sure. Good luck.

[A3Scott]

Thanks Janaka !! Pretty good guess ... the heat load was calculated at 57.3K and the cooling load at 21.2K / 1.76 tons.
Still unsure of which way I will go. The company I've been dealing with that has given me the best advice is Advantage Airtech. Ever hear of them ?


I would have guessed your head load in the 55k range not nearly 50% higher at 75k...

[janaka]

Thanks Janaka !! Pretty good guess ... the heat load was calculated at 57.3K and the cooling load at 21.2K / 1.76 tons.
Still unsure of which way I will go. The company I've been dealing with that has given me the best advice is Advantage Airtech. Ever hear of them ?

Definitely never heard of them, that said I don't service your area so take that with a grain of salt.

The two ton is where I'd for for sure. If you purchase the YP9C in a 60k BTU unit it will have the output of 58500btu at 100% fire which will satisfy your heat loss. Remember the actual part of the heating season that you NEED 100% of the capacity of the furnace is VERY small, under 10% generally. I stick by my 60/2ton recommendation knowing the heat loss.

[l0cus]

We had a furnace and AC installed 2 yrs ago - Frigidaire 95.1% AFUE Two Stage - Variable Speed Furnace, and I think a 14 seer ?? ton AC. Both work fine. The house is a double brick, semi-detached, approx 1400 sq ft (including the basement) - recently renovated, spray foam basement, new R12 Roxul throughout.

We just had hardwood floors installed in the spring, so we're in need of a humidifier before the winter. I did some online research, and I came up with this combo:

Honeywell Prestige HD YTHX9321R5003 Deluxe Comfort Thermostat System Kit (http://www.prothermostats.com/product.php?product=172899)
Honeywell TrueSTEAMT 9 Gallon Wireless Humidifier With Receiver (http://www.prothermostats.com/product.php?p=honeywell_hm509w1005&product=172944)

A couple questions:
1) Steam vs traditional - anything I need to be wary of?
2) Is this combo worth it? It's almost $900 US (I will be in the US in a few weeks, so duty, taxes aren't a concern). I will also install myself. But I could probably get an HVAC guy out to install a regular humidifier for less $.
3) Is this sized properly? 6 gallon was for 1500 sq ft, but I don't like being on the borderline...
4) Is there a better/more recommended unit similar in features?

Thanks!

[JeffMc]

Hi,

We need a new furnace (Barrie/Wasaga Beach area) and received the following quotes from Direct Energy:

1) Trane:
TFD175CLFR000C 658698 TRNE - IAQ CLEANEFFECTS IFD 17.5 FRN $1,530.00

INFURN INFURN ENHS - FURNACE INSTALLATION
PPP DE Protect PX15HF DEPX - 15YR FURN PROTECTION+1YR CHECK
DP 1F80C-0471D 485348 DON - IAQ TSTAT BLUE SCRN PROGRMGL
DP 2PVK-HI-10F 970405 DON - VENT KIT TWO PIPE HI
DP FIELD TRANS DP7199 DON - MTL-FIELD TRANSITION
TUH2B060A9V3VA 672030 TRNE - FURN-TRANE HI 2STG DC MTR XV95
SALE AUDIT D+E SAUDDE ENHS - HOME ENERGY EVALUATION 1&2 $6,005.00 - Total installed w/Taxes: $8,514.55

2) Trane:
TFD175CLFR000C 658698 TRNE - IAQ CLEANEFFECTS IFD 17.5 FRN $1,530.00
Total Ancillary Costs $4,605.00
INFURN INFURN ENHS - FURNACE INSTALLATION
PPP DE Protect PX15HF DEPX - 15YR FURN PROTECTION+1YR CHECK
DP 1F80C-0471D 485348 DON - IAQ TSTAT BLUE SCRN PROGRMGL
DP 2PVK-HI-10F 970405 DON - VENT KIT TWO PIPE HI
DP FIELD TRANS DP7199 DON - MTL-FIELD TRANSITION
TUH1B060A9361A 54973 TRNE - FURN-TRANE HI SINGLE STG XR95 - Total installed w/Taxes: $6,932.55

Is this quote on target? The house is a bugalow w/finished basement (maybe 1500 sq feet).

Is there anyone in the Barrie/Wasaga beach area you could recommend?

I very much appreciate your time.

[38racing]

Are you saying it costs $8500 to install a $1500 furnace? My daughter has a 1250 sq bungalaw and she was quoted $4400 for a Rheem fully modulating. In fact would be same for my 1500 sq ft. I even had a guy on the phone say he could install a 95% DC for $3000.

[janaka]

Are you saying it costs $8500 to install a $1500 furnace? My daughter has a 1250 sq bungalaw and she was quoted $4400 for a Rheem fully modulating. In fact would be same for my 1500 sq ft. I even had a guy on the phone say he could install a 95% DC for $3000.

If I read that right its $1530 for the indoor air quality piece PLUS the furnace etc.

RUN. Fast. Away.

Direct Energy is SO far out to lunch its scary. $8500 for furnace and IAQ and no AC (god I hope an AC is included!)? If you buy that I have some land for sale in Florida for cheap. :lol:

[bririp]

If I read that right its $1530 for the indoor air quality piece PLUS the furnace etc.

RUN. Fast. Away.

Direct Energy is SO far out to lunch its scary. $8500 for furnace and IAQ and no AC (god I hope an AC is included!)? If you buy that I have some land for sale in Florida for cheap. :lol:

Depending on the amount of work needed to install the filter, the price is actually the most accurate price I have ever seen from DE. That filter, along with the American Standard Accuclean...same product) is one of, if not the best residential air filter on the market.

Having said that, the pricing for the entire system is quite high

[Ironballz]

Hello all, I have a question about increasing air flow to the top floor of my home. I live in a small 2-story single detached 1600 sq ft home but I find that the heating/AC to the top floor is quite poor. What are my options to improve this? Would replacing the blower motor to something more powerful help? I've tried different furnace filters from the cheap ones to the 3M premiums but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I've taped all the duct joints in the furnace room to prevent leaks but still not much help. I've also blocked the ventilation ducts in the basement and some on the main floor but again, the air flow to the top floor still isn't great. Any help would be appreciated.

[bririp]

One thing that is very comon is the fan speed not being set up properly for the task that it is runing.

-Usually I would suggest checking the filter first, but it sounds like you have already done this.
-you can play with the dampers, or have a professional in to do this for you
-make sure the duct is properly sized for your home

This is something that happens in almost every home. The worst rooms are usually those above garages due to poor builder insulation.

Something that has become more and more popular lately, at least around us, is home owners asking to have a ductless split unit installed in these rooms, and master bedrooms, giving it the added boost needed to get the room comfortable, and also giving this room seperate control. It is not a cheap solution, and there shouldn't be a need for it, but new home contruction is getting worse and worse, and lots of contractors are getting away with it.

Most inspectors aren't qualified enough to spot these issues during inspection, and the engineers rarely have the time to go through the drawing properly.

Hope this helps

[atifkm]

Hi,
Is there any filter attached to the furnace which need to be cleaned.
Just moved to a house and looking to clean/replace the filter before winter.

[janaka]

Hi,
Is there any filter attached to the furnace which need to be cleaned.
Just moved to a house and looking to clean/replace the filter before winter.

did you look?

[bririp]

did you look?

There SHOULD be a filter to change. Depending on the type and use, you should be changing it every 1-6 months. Most filters are available at Home Depot, but if you are not sure, feel free to take a picture and post it here and I can try to help you out a little better.

[frugal905]

hi
This is more a posting to verify my decision to buy Coleman before making final decision.

I have 1800 sq ft home (West GTA) and am replacing furnace with Eco-rebates ( audit done more than a year ago so I get full rebates).

I have 2 quotes narrowed down to but leaning towards Coleman System based on $1100 less + nicer guy who seemed more knowledgable and I like what I read about Coleman.

BUT, Lennox guy bad-mouthed Coleman but I dont know if there is a real issue with Coleman or just competition bashing. Any advice?

quote 1: Lennox G61V Furnace ( 94.1% eff) + Lennox 14ACX A/C 15.5 SEER with air filter and humidifier for $9079 less costco rebate so $8100 ( but I get $2630 back from EcoAudit/EcoEnergy program - done 1 year ago)
TOTAL: $8100 less $2630 rebates = $5470

Quote 2: Coleman Tm9V60 Furnace ( 2 stage, 96% eff, variable motor) $3000 + Coleman TCJF A/C (14.5 SEER) $2900 + General Aire 1042 humidifier $300 installed with taxes $7200.
TOTAL: $7200 less $2630 rebates = $4570 ( $1100 cheaper than Lennox)
+ I can get 10 yr parts and labour warranty as peace of mind.

IS Coleman good quality?
Is this good system for the money?

What is recommendation for air filter?
Is aftermarket UV light worthwhile?

Thanks in advance!

PS any good websites to review furnaces and A/C's

[vince_wrx]

Does your company take on non-paid co-op, I need it as part of my gas 2 course at Durham College, I have my g3 and obt 3

[Burljoe]

I had this unit installed just over 2 years ago. The unit stopped working recently so the technician from A1 in Oakville put in a new capacitor, fired it up and blew the cap off the compressor. This cost me $850 while under Lennox's "Limited" warranty...sure is limited. So, 2 weeks later it stops working again. This time I'm told by the same tech that the evaporator is defective and that's probably why the compressor went. In my opinion, very poor service from A1, very poor parts quality and very poor warranty coverage. Beware!

[luck11]

Hi. I have a Rheem Classic 90 Plus Series Contour Furnace, model RGFD - 10EZCMS, and the blower motor will not run. If the thermostat is set to AC, the A/C unit outside will turn on but no blower on the furnace. If on HEAT, the gas ignites, but no blower. FAN ON, no blower. I removed the cover and the display on the control board flashes 81, 68, 81, 68 then solid F for about 4 seconds then continues flashing just 81 over and over. The back panel lists a bunch of codes, and it seems code "68" under "ICM Feed-back signal" means "no signal". Code 81 is listed under "thermistors" and means "return air sensor - out of range. "F" means "System Fan - no heat or cool cycle - fan on", which is correct because I had the thermostat set to FAN ON at the time.

Anyone have any idea what I am dealing with here? Is my blower motor shot?

Thx.

Well, it turns out it was the blower motor. However, I now notice that my blower motor is running at a low speed all the time, even though I don't have the FAN ON. In fact, I turn everything off at my thermostat controls and it still runs at low speed.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[janaka]

Well, it turns out it was the blower motor. However, I now notice that my blower motor is running at a low speed all the time, even though I don't have the FAN ON. In fact, I turn everything off at my thermostat controls and it still runs at low speed.

Any advice would be appreciated.

the board is fried if I was to guess as it defaults the blower to the on position in a lot of models.

[janaka]

I had this unit installed just over 2 years ago. The unit stopped working recently so the technician from A1 in Oakville put in a new capacitor, fired it up and blew the cap off the compressor. This cost me $850 while under Lennox's "Limited" warranty...sure is limited. So, 2 weeks later it stops working again. This time I'm told by the same tech that the evaporator is defective and that's probably why the compressor went. In my opinion, very poor service from A1, very poor parts quality and very poor warranty coverage. Beware!

How did you pay $850 under warranty? Sounds like you got Lennox 10yr parts warranty and a 1 yr labour and they screwed you on the labour costs to install the warrantied parts.

If this IS the case then this is a great case to show why Nighthawk and I always ALWAYS recommend a matching 10yr parts and labour warranty becuase it protects YOU after the purchase. I bet you could have gotten a much nicer unit for an additional $850 which would have gotten you a 10yr warranty, most likely an XC14 would have been less than $850 more and should come with a 10/10 warranty.

Sucks to get hit with that kind of bill though on a 2yr old unit.

[Lumber-jack]

I have some quotes in and would like opinions on pros and cons to the models. I am initially impressed with the Colman as I was told it is the same as the York and comes in about $1300 less. I also like a modulating furnace as I live in a 3 story house and was told that a modulating furnace will help even out the temperature difference between the floors compared to the current furnace. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

thanks

Trane XV95 (95%)2 stage
years parts and labour, lifetime on heat exchangers
$4200


Bryant 95S 10 (95%)
years on parts and labour
$4150

York 9.S Latitude (95%) 5 years on part and lifetime on heat exchanger
10 years parts and labour
$3772

York LX series (96%) 2 stage DC fan
10 years parts and labour
$5636

York Affinity (97.5%) modulating
10 years parts and labour
$5964

Colman 9.M Echelon modulating
10 years on parts and labour, lifetime on heat exchanger
$4691

[iherald]

The Dad of a friend of mine does commercial HVAC. He won't do the installation of the furnace but I can buy one from him at cost. Assuming I get the furnace through him, what would it likely cost to install it?

[janaka]

The Dad of a friend of mine does commercial HVAC. He won't do the installation of the furnace but I can buy one from him at cost. Assuming I get the furnace through him, what would it likely cost to install it?

the same as buying from a business give or take and you'll have no warranty. thats only IF a contractor will even touch the furnace. I know our company won't install someone else's furnace due to the liability alone.

[nighthawk26]

The Dad of a friend of mine does commercial HVAC. He won't do the installation of the furnace but I can buy one from him at cost. Assuming I get the furnace through him, what would it likely cost to install it?

Does this not tell you something when he won't even do the install?

Typically the type of "business" that would be willing to touch this is the type of business you should likely be runnign away from. No one will want to warranty it, the channel it's coming through assures me it's not a premium brand of any kind. Likely a goodman or a keeprite, or a Gibson, or possibly even worse.

You'll be loosing out on many factory rebates on top of warranty, and also some additional rebates through the OPA.

[NorthernSails]

I've been hearing about this product and I would like to know if anyone has any experience with it. I know it's not HVAC but it all ties together. For a proper energy efficient home you need 1. Air Tightness, 2. A proper HVAC (air flow) and 3. Good insulation. E-RIM is claiming they can improve your homes overall efficiency by 14%. Thoughts?

[bririp]

...

[NorthernSails]

How is that SPAM? I asked a question concerning a product that has a lot to do with air flow in a home. Maybe this isn't the best thread but I don't see how that's SPAM. Are we not supposed to bring up name brands here? Should I say that there is a rimboard product that is being advertised as helping the overall efficiency of a home that is closely related to air tightness and your HVAc system...since it all ties into one another and it has a name that I am not allowed to say?

Whatever...

[Pete_Coach]

I've been hearing about this product and I would like to know if anyone has any experience with it. I know it's not HVAC but it all ties together. For a proper energy efficient home you need 1. Air Tightness, 2. A proper HVAC (air flow) and 3. Good insulation. E-RIM is claiming they can improve your homes overall efficiency by 14%. Thoughts?


Spam??


How is that SPAM? I asked a question concerning a product that has a lot to do with air flow in a home. Maybe this isn't the best thread but I don't see how that's SPAM. Are we not supposed to bring up name brands here? Should I say that there is a rimboard product that is being advertised as helping the overall efficiency of a home that is closely related to air tightness and your HVAc system...since it all ties into one another and it has a name that I am not allowed to say?

Whatever...
Good that you defend your position and bring a new product to the attention of people looking for efficiency. Perhaps if you provided some information, a website or something other than the way you came on?

[entilza]

Hope I can post this here, it's regarding air quality.

After we got our ducts cleaned we noticed a strange smell, long story short. When they showed me the dirt that was being collected in the furnace I remembered this strong smell, hard to describe it, a very dusty smell, not mold but a strong odor was present. I didn't think much since they were still cleaning but soon afterwards we started noticing this smell in the house. It's not in the basement nor in the furnace itself, I did a lot of nosing around (literally) and seemed to narrow it down to the return air vents

Basically with the system off the smell rises through only the return air vents not the blower vents so hopefully that's narrowing it out, I know part of the basement is finished and perhaps they weren't able to vacuum enough of the return ducts after making the holes or maybe they just missed a spot, not sure...

The duct cleaning owner says to try getting a dehumidifer to see if that helps, just we have been here over a year and never had this problem until the cleaning. However the vents were never cleaned (~13 years) so not sure if that's a factor. The smell definitely varies from day to day. I wish I could go through each of the vents and wipe them down physically not just pressured air.

Are there any more intensive duct cleaning methods that do this type of thing? Any suggestions? It's really getting us down...

[THE_click]

When it comes to Residential Venting systems.. they are all unique. Weird smells after the job indicates that something was moved or pushed somewhere it shouldn't be.

Does anybody here realize professional Duct cleaning ranges from $ 400.00 - $ 1000.00 on standard properties.. The reason is because it takes time to be thorough, even when using the best equipment out there.

If your not gonna spend the money to do it right.. you might as well not spend it at all.. it would be a waste. You will only get the results by removing everything in the system. If you leave pockets of debris, it will recontaminate the system in no time. Just Remember with Venting systems everything goes in a circle.. C.A.R.'s bring air to the furnace, and Hot Air's exhaust it into the home. Missing or Hiding Debris in HVAC systems is easy and unfortunately quite common.

Wherever there is a vent in your home.. it must make it's way back to the furnace area to be connected to the air handling system.. imagine the octopus of pipes and runs hidden behind the walls of your house.

Maybe something fell on the Heat X.. and it's creating a weird melting/burning smell.. I have worked in the industry, this turned out to be the case sometimes.

Usually it's something that hasn't been moved in the system for years.. and then aggitated.. like a slice of pizza or a sandwhich, it has happened before, trust me!

If you used a Mickey Mouse Duct Cleaner.. good luck.. you probably won't get further than the dehumidifier recommendation. The Pro's usually guarantee the work and give no hassles to come back and fix the problem.. regardless of what it is or turns out to be. ;)

[entilza]

I tried to go with a decent company, one who was recommended by the furnace company, price was around $300. They seemed professional they cleaned out the furnace motor/ac coil as well and seem to want to help, they are offering to come again and take a look, it's going to be hard to convince them something smells if they can't smell it that particular day so hopefully it will be like that.

The way they cleaned it was basically compressed air from the vents down to the main plenum which then they made holes and vacuumed the ducts in different holes.. Maybe in my situation because it wasn't cleaned in so long I needed a little more work? I read something about a fogging system that is suppose to disinfect everything.

I made a larger access holes in the return duct to help try to smell my way to the affected area. Basically the smell occurs with the system off, and hitting the return vent on the main floor, but mostly the second floor master bedroom as if the smell wants to rise. If I turn it on it would circulate that smell throughout the house. I would like to take care of this before winter as the heater will be on all winter.

I'm all up for suggestions on how to handle this.

[l0cus]

I'm thinking of adding the following to my house (replacing the existing thermo, and adding the humidifer since we don't have one):

Honeywell YTHX9321R5003 (Home Comfort System Prestige HD)
Honeywell HM509W1005 (9 gallon Truesteam)

Just soliciting opinions/experiences... the thermo looks like a pretty good unit - and I know steam has some drawbacks.

[Brrr]

I'm thinking of adding the following to my house (replacing the existing thermo, and adding the humidifer since we don't have one):

Honeywell YTHX9321R5003 (Home Comfort System Prestige HD)
Honeywell HM509W1005 (9 gallon Truesteam)

Just soliciting opinions/experiences... the thermo looks like a pretty good unit - and I know steam has some drawbacks.

I've had 3xHoneywell Prestige HD thermostats on order for over a month. Seems like they're in short supply. To control my zoned system of heat, A/C, humidifier, HRV. Will let you know once/if they're installed and working.

FWIW, I asked to have the exact steam humidifier installed, and was advised it was overkill for general residential application by Enbridge. They would've installed it, but recommended I go with a regular unit.

[bririp]

I've had 3xHoneywell Prestige HD thermostats on order for over a month. Seems like they're in short supply. To control my zoned system of heat, A/C, humidifier, HRV. Will let you know once/if they're installed and working.

FWIW, I asked to have the exact steam humidifier installed, and was advised it was overkill for general residential application by Enbridge. They would've installed it, but recommended I go with a regular unit.

Enbridge (more likely Direct energy) doesnt know anything about humidifiers if that is what they are saying. The true steam is a great product for houses of all sizes. The most important thing is that the unit has to be size properly. Some houses force us to install two units together in order to accomplish proper sizing.

The issue with houses these days is that your furnace doesnt run long enough for a flow-thru unit to humidify enough. They are great products.

In terms of back order...I am surprised. What model are you looking for? I seem to be able to source them whenever I want.

[l0cus]

OK, after doing some more research it looks like the newer version is the Prestige IAQ (same form factor as the Prestige HD). Does anyone have any experience with this model/kit? I realize it's brand new. It looks like the Prestige IAQ Comfort System Kit comes with:

* Prestige IAQ Thermostat (THX9421R5005)
* Equipment Interface Module (THM5421R1005)
* Portable Comfort Control (REM5000R1001)
* Wireless Outdoor Sensor (C7089R1013)

One of the benefits I see right away is that I don't have to use wireless to hook up the Truesteam (since the EIM and TrueSteam will be right next to each other). And if i ever want to add any other IAQ devices I can wire them in to the EIM.

[wasserware]

OK, after doing some more research it looks like the newer version is the Prestige IAQ (same form factor as the Prestige HD). Does anyone have any experience with this model/kit? I realize it's brand new. It looks like the Prestige IAQ Comfort System Kit comes with:

* Prestige IAQ Thermostat (THX9421R5005)
* Equipment Interface Module (THM5421R1005)
* Portable Comfort Control (REM5000R1001)
* Wireless Outdoor Sensor (C7089R1013)

One of the benefits I see right away is that I don't have to use wireless to hook up the Truesteam (since the EIM and TrueSteam will be right next to each other). And if i ever want to add any other IAQ devices I can wire them in to the EIM.

I have the same thermostat that is the regular version:
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/diy-zoning-create-comfortable-temperature-first-second-floor-great-success-894755/

[Brrr]

Enbridge (more likely Direct energy) doesnt know anything about humidifiers if that is what they are saying. The true steam is a great product for houses of all sizes. The most important thing is that the unit has to be size properly. Some houses force us to install two units together in order to accomplish proper sizing.

The issue with houses these days is that your furnace doesnt run long enough for a flow-thru unit to humidify enough. They are great products.

In terms of back order...I am surprised. What model are you looking for? I seem to be able to source them whenever I want.

It's actually Enbridge out here in NB. It's subbed out to various contractors, but the opinion came from the owner of the HVAC company who did the original quote/heat loss calculation/duct work spec for them. He's very highly regarded out here, having been in business for over 30 years. The beauty of it is that the whole system is sold, warranted and serviced through Enbridge. And there's a hefty rebate to switch over from baseboard offered by Enbridge.

I'm looking for the THX9321R5000 unit. But I haven't spoken to Enbridge this week, so maybe I'll give them a call

[QuestForKnowledge]

Hi all,

After much research and investigation, we are ready to upgrade some original equipment in the house and the last puzzle piece I'm trying to figure out is the thermostat. Here's where we are leaning so far (the A/C is only a couple years old, so not changing it):
- York YP9C100C16MP
- Aprilaire 4400 Air Cleaner
- Aprilaire 600 Humidifier

We currently have a single stage Honeywell t-stat, but after a bit of reading it seems to me that, although the YP9C will work well using my current t-stat due to it's own logic, I won't be taking full advantage of the modulating capabilities of the furnace. This is one of the primary reasons I'm looking for the change. Secondly, I like the idea of taking full control of my entire home comfort system from one place, including relative humidity.

At this point I am leaning towards the Honeywell VisionPro IAQ (YTH9421C1002). It seems to offer me the best performance/value for dollar of those I've looked at. I also like that it appears it would work fine with my existing wiring (the finished basement makes me prefer not to add the additional wiring, but I would if it was worth it).

Does anyone have any advice or opinions, primarily on the question of the right t-stat? I would also welcome any advice or feedback on the other components as well. I have tried to be extremely thorough in my research/selection process, but I'm far from an HVAC expert and given that I'm going to be living with this decision for many, many years, want to ensure I make the right one for us.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[janaka]

I've got a visionPro 8000 Honeywell and its a great stat. It controls my 2stg furnace and single stage ac just fine, has all the reminders I'd ever need and is easy to use.
IMO get a stat that you like the look of and can understand how to use. Most consumers won't use ALL the features of the super high end stats so why pay for something you won't use.

I recommend this stat for its simplicity and functionality. It can control 2 stage AC or heat pumps as well if you ever upgrade.

[QuestForKnowledge]

Thanks janaka,

So here's what I'm struggling with and I just can't seem to get a straight answer. I talk to one York dealer and they tell me I should upgrade my single stage t-stat to work best w/the YP9C. I talk to another one and they tell me I shouldn't. I challenge the guy who tells me I shouldn't and he says since he's not 100% sure on the technical details, he's going to talk to York and find out. He calls me back and says that York is 'recommending' I leave the single stage t-stat I have, because a two/multi-stage t-stat will just end up "fighting" with the furnace, as it will work best if left to use it's own logic. Those aren't the exact words, but the t-stat "fighting" w/the furnace is.

Can anyone with extensive knowledge of how this furnce (YP9C) works help shed some light on this one? I've now been given three completely different answers: 1. it needs to be upgraded to get the full benefits from the furnace 2. it doesn't make a difference, your preference 3. it's better not to upgrade because of this specific furnace.

Also, is there a technical customer support number at York I can call to get an answer directly from the horses mouth? I've tried calling them and they refer me back to dealers. Unfortunately it's the dealers I'm getting the conflicting answers from.

[wasserware]

I think with the VisionPro you can better fine tune your temperature and comfort as the newer honeywell Tstats are very accurate at reading and maintaining temperature. Depending on the wiring, your single state thermostat may lock the furnace to run in one stage only which defeats the purpose of having a modulating furnace. (I COULD BE WRONG)

Also, if you want to control the humidity from your Tstat, your single stage Tstat wont be able to do it because only the VisionPro and Prestige has the ability to communicate with the humidifier.

Regarding your humidifier, are you getting a good deal on it from the furnace purchase? Because if I were you I'll just get everything honeywell including their Steam Humidifier (Much easier to maintain and efficient) and the Honeywell Electronic Air cleaners. Because with your current setup, I am not sure if the humidifier can read external temperature to automatically adjust the humidity levels in the house to prevent condensation.

[QuestForKnowledge]

Thanks wasserware,

I 'finally' found the technical guide for the specific furnace and it's a bit tough for me to understand, but if I'm interpreting things properly, it's seeming to me like the single-stage stat will not detract from the furnace at all. Again, I'd still love someone with in-depth product knowledge to chime in.

If in fact the only advantage I'll get to changing the stat will be aesthetic with a few other 'nice' features (like humidity control from the stat), I'll probably skip it now and re-visit in the future if in fact I feel like I'm missing something.

I am getting favorable pricing on the air cleaner and humidifier together with the furnace purchase/install.

Regarding air cleaners, I consciously went mechanical and avoided the electronic air cleaners, as there are no allergy or general sinus issues in the house and we do open our windows a fair bit in the spring and fall especially, and the low/no maintenance of the media filters are a big selling point for us. We had to maintain a stand-alone electronic air cleaner when we were in a condo and hated cleaning that thing. Also, we are going with the Aprilaire 4400, as I wanted better than MERV 10 and nothing as restrictive to airflow as MERV 16 (I understand it's MERV 13).

The humidifier is actually the Aprilaire 600A, with the external temperature sensor, so I anticipate I will be leaving it on automatic mode most of the time, so having the humidity control right on the t-stat was nice, but not all that important. I'll still have manual control on the humidistat in the basement if I really want to use it. I guess I'll see how that works out.

Some of those Honeywell's do look nice, esp. w/the touch screen, but I'd hate to change it just because it 'looks cool' if there's any truth to what I was told about a multi-stage stat 'fighting' w/the furnace re: control, as the furnace does appear to have pretty advanced built-in logic to maximize efficiency. Anyone out there with in-depth knowledge of this specific furnace's logic/controls? Thanks all!!

[NorthernSails]

Good that you defend your position and bring a new product to the attention of people looking for efficiency. Perhaps if you provided some information, a website or something other than the way you came on?

I don't want to disrupt the flow of the thread but it took me a while to find anuthing on this stuff. Googling simply e-rim didn't get me there easily.

Thanks for the back-up and advice.

Here is a link to the board...it looks pretty interesting.

http://www.emercor.com/rimboard.html

[janaka]

Thanks wasserware,

I 'finally' found the technical guide for the specific furnace and it's a bit tough for me to understand, but if I'm interpreting things properly, it's seeming to me like the single-stage stat will not detract from the furnace at all. Again, I'd still love someone with in-depth product knowledge to chime in.

If in fact the only advantage I'll get to changing the stat will be aesthetic with a few other 'nice' features (like humidity control from the stat), I'll probably skip it now and re-visit in the future if in fact I feel like I'm missing something.

I am getting favorable pricing on the air cleaner and humidifier together with the furnace purchase/install.

Regarding air cleaners, I consciously went mechanical and avoided the electronic air cleaners, as there are no allergy or general sinus issues in the house and we do open our windows a fair bit in the spring and fall especially, and the low/no maintenance of the media filters are a big selling point for us. We had to maintain a stand-alone electronic air cleaner when we were in a condo and hated cleaning that thing. Also, we are going with the Aprilaire 4400, as I wanted better than MERV 10 and nothing as restrictive to airflow as MERV 16 (I understand it's MERV 13).

The humidifier is actually the Aprilaire 600A, with the external temperature sensor, so I anticipate I will be leaving it on automatic mode most of the time, so having the humidity control right on the t-stat was nice, but not all that important. I'll still have manual control on the humidistat in the basement if I really want to use it. I guess I'll see how that works out.

Some of those Honeywell's do look nice, esp. w/the touch screen, but I'd hate to change it just because it 'looks cool' if there's any truth to what I was told about a multi-stage stat 'fighting' w/the furnace re: control, as the furnace does appear to have pretty advanced built-in logic to maximize efficiency. Anyone out there with in-depth knowledge of this specific furnace's logic/controls? Thanks all!!

Since I sell the YP9C's I'm 99.99% positive we install them with a single stage thermostat and they function as intended.

The other thing to note is that just because you buy a 2stg thermostat does NOT mean you have to wire it for 2 stage heat. Just don't attach the W2 (2nd stg) on the stat and it will act like a single stage thermostat. If you like the functionality of a 2stg stat for the other features then get it but wire it as single stage and problem solved. That said I've never heard of using a 2stage stat causing any ISSUES on the YP9C either, IIRC York sells a touch screen stat (like the FocusPro 8000) that is a 2stg stat... food for thought. Either way the board on the YP9C does the modulation and its not being told what to do from the thermostat.

[QuestForKnowledge]

Awesome! Thanks again janaka! I think I'll be going ahead with a purchase and an install for the weekend. I'll let you guys know next week how everything went.

[nighthawk26]

Awesome! Thanks again janaka! I think I'll be going ahead with a purchase and an install for the weekend. I'll let you guys know next week how everything went.

Just for reference, Janaka also works with me! ;) That is how we set them up and I follow up with most customers and they are very impressed with the function of the furnace running with a single stage stat through the furnaces control board.

[iherald]

I understand what a modulating furnace is. However, are they worth the extra cost versus just a variable speed (which I know is just variable speed of the fan)? i.e. will the gas savings from the modulation pay for the cost increase in the furnace?

[janaka]

I understand what a modulating furnace is. However, are they worth the extra cost versus just a variable speed (which I know is just variable speed of the fan)? i.e. will the gas savings from the modulation pay for the cost increase in the furnace?

the efficiency difference from a single or two stage to the modulation is marginal at best IMO. York for instance has a 95.5 / 96 / 98% furnaces (single, two stage, modulating). You'd be a fool to think a 2.5% savings is going to have a pay back period within this century (well maybe it would in a 100yr term actually...)

Modulating furnaces are about comfort and lifestyle more so.

Silent operation for me is one of the TOP reasons to buy it. They are virtually unaudiable if set up properly.
Consistant temperatures without fluxuations between heat cycles vs a single or two stage.
These furnaces can run longer in situations where venting is becoming blocked (say due to snow coverage) whereas a single or two stage will simply stop operating. This is a peice of mind feature for a lot of families.

[jerlove]

Thank you to everyone who participates in this forum. I have learned a lot but maybe too much that now I am very confused.

I would like to share some qoutes I have recieved and would love for someones opinion on which would be the best for me. I am really focusing on best value. I do not need all of the bells and whistles I just need a dependable furnace that will help me reduce my heating costs over the 10years I plan on being in this house.

Estimate one.

York 80,000 BTU Latitude Series 95.5% model TG9S080 single Stage $3530 inc HST

#2

Payne PG9MXA036080 80,00 BTu 92% two stage with DC fan = $3390 inc HST

#3

Bryant 340AAV 92% single stage = 3390 inc HST

#4

Bryant 353BAV two stage = 3955 inc HST

#5

YORK TM 9V080 2 stage 96% energy star rated DC brushless motor $ 4250.50 HST included.


I was told by one of the contractors that the Payne and Bryant were essentially the same. So if that is the case that would have me leaning towards the Payne 2 stage for $3390. Really do not think it would make sense to pay another $600 if they are essentially the same.

I would love to hear some opinions on which one would provide the best value.

Thanks

JL

[janaka]

Thank you to everyone who participates in this forum. I have learned a lot but maybe too much that now I am very confused.

I would like to share some qoutes I have recieved and would love for someones opinion on which would be the best for me. I am really focusing on best value. I do not need all of the bells and whistles I just need a dependable furnace that will help me reduce my heating costs over the 10years I plan on being in this house.

Estimate one.

York 80,000 BTU Latitude Series 95.5% model TG9S080 single Stage $3530 inc HST

#2

Payne PG9MXA036080 80,00 BTu 92% two stage with DC fan = $3390 inc HST

#3

Bryant 340AAV 92% single stage = 3390 inc HST

#4

Bryant 353BAV two stage = 3955 inc HST

#5

YORK TM 9V080 2 stage 96% energy star rated DC brushless motor $ 4250.50 HST included.


I was told by one of the contractors that the Payne and Bryant were essentially the same. So if that is the case that would have me leaning towards the Payne 2 stage for $3390. Really do not think it would make sense to pay another $600 if they are essentially the same.

I would love to hear some opinions on which one would provide the best value.

Thanks

JL

Do NOT buy a furnace without a D/C (variable speed) blower motor whatever you do. That instantly rules out the TG9S furnace. I don't deal with the Bryant/Payne stuff but for the rebate programs you need to be over 94.0% efficient to qualify with the DC brushless motor. That rules out #2 and #3 as well.

I assume the #4 bryant is the 95% 2stg dc furnace which is a decent unit as is the TM9V 96% york (I am a York dealer). If I am correct on the Bryant then the last two will both qualify for maximum rebates.

What is the warranty on the products? Again it boggles my mind that this is a price-only comparision. Is it the same company installing all 3 brands? Are the companies comparable in size and reputation? Experience?

If you are going to be in the house for 10yrs then spending the extra money on a better furnace is a no brainer as you amortize the cost over the term you are there. $900 over 10 yrs is what? $8/mnth? LOL.

IMO none of those are "bells and whistles" furnaces. I 99 time out of 100 prefer a 2stg to a single stage since they tend to overcome ducting issues easier than a single stage for even heating, but without seeing/being in your home its tough to know which I would 'recommend' based on your application so I'll go with my majority and say the 2stg for the long term will be better for a marginal cost difference.

[psnyder1985]

Hello,

I just had a quote done to replace my Furnace and AC unit. The company did a thorough inspection of the home, dimensions, windows etc.. I will have to have a little extra labor done to the home which drove the cost up a little.

York LX Series
14.5 High Effieincy - LP Gas Frunace w/ Heat Pump 2 stage 96% efficient
New Thermostat - touch screen
2 Ton AC Unit

Everything including labor and removal of old system and quite a bit of duct work $11,060. I will qualify for $1500 tax credit

Please let me know if this is a decent quote or if more information is needed on the actual items to make the determination. Thanks!!!
-- John

[iherald]

Hello,

I just had a quote done to replace my Furnace and AC unit. The company did a thorough inspection of the home, dimensions, windows etc.. I will have to have a little extra labor done to the home which drove the cost up a little.

York LX Series
14.5 High Effieincy - LP Gas Frunace w/ Heat Pump 2 stage 96% efficient
New Thermostat - touch screen
2 Ton AC Unit

Everything including labor and removal of old system and quite a bit of duct work $11,060. I will qualify for $1500 tax credit

Please let me know if this is a decent quote or if more information is needed on the actual items to make the determination. Thanks!!!
-- John

$1500 tax credit?

[psnyder1985]

$1500 tax credit?

Yes they show a $1500 tax credit.

[jerlove]

$1500 tax credit?

Take note that they are from the states. I know the US is offering tax credits at the momment.

[jerlove]

Do NOT buy a furnace without a D/C (variable speed) blower motor whatever you do. That instantly rules out the TG9S furnace. I don't deal with the Bryant/Payne stuff but for the rebate programs you need to be over 94.0% efficient to qualify with the DC brushless motor. That rules out #2 and #3 as well.

I assume the #4 bryant is the 95% 2stg dc furnace which is a decent unit as is the TM9V 96% york (I am a York dealer). If I am correct on the Bryant then the last two will both qualify for maximum rebates.

What is the warranty on the products? Again it boggles my mind that this is a price-only comparision. Is it the same company installing all 3 brands? Are the companies comparable in size and reputation? Experience?

If you are going to be in the house for 10yrs then spending the extra money on a better furnace is a no brainer as you amortize the cost over the term you are there. $900 over 10 yrs is what? $8/mnth? LOL.

IMO none of those are "bells and whistles" furnaces. I 99 time out of 100 prefer a 2stg to a single stage since they tend to overcome ducting issues easier than a single stage for even heating, but without seeing/being in your home its tough to know which I would 'recommend' based on your application so I'll go with my majority and say the 2stg for the long term will be better for a marginal cost difference.


Thank you for your advice. The qoutes are from 2 equal contractors in terms of experience and service. One sells the Payne and Bryant line the other sells the York line.

I am not going to get the rebates as I need to replace the furnace now and do not have the time to wait for the energy audit. I live in a rural area and the quickest I can get one out is 2 weeks. I have been told with out the engery audit the only rebate I can get is $125.00 for the DC motor. So I think I am either going to go with option # 2 or option #4. I took a look at the features of the Payne and they are identical to that of the Bryant so I think I am essentially paying $500 more for the Bryant name and 3% more eff.

I guess the main question now is does the Bryant name and 3% more make it worth the extra $500?

Warranties are both 10 year parts.

[janaka]

Thank you for your advice. The qoutes are from 2 equal contractors in terms of experience and service. One sells the Payne and Bryant line the other sells the York line.

I am not going to get the rebates as I need to replace the furnace now and do not have the time to wait for the energy audit. I live in a rural area and the quickest I can get one out is 2 weeks. I have been told with out the engery audit the only rebate I can get is $125.00 for the DC motor. So I think I am either going to go with option # 2 or option #4. I took a look at the features of the Payne and they are identical to that of the Bryant so I think I am essentially paying $500 more for the Bryant name and 3% more eff.

I guess the main question now is does the Bryant name and 3% more make it worth the extra $500?

Warranties are both 10 year parts.

labour warranties?

[nighthawk26]

Thank you for your advice. The qoutes are from 2 equal contractors in terms of experience and service. One sells the Payne and Bryant line the other sells the York line.

I am not going to get the rebates as I need to replace the furnace now and do not have the time to wait for the energy audit. I live in a rural area and the quickest I can get one out is 2 weeks. I have been told with out the engery audit the only rebate I can get is $125.00 for the DC motor. So I think I am either going to go with option # 2 or option #4. I took a look at the features of the Payne and they are identical to that of the Bryant so I think I am essentially paying $500 more for the Bryant name and 3% more eff.

I guess the main question now is does the Bryant name and 3% more make it worth the extra $500?

Warranties are both 10 year parts.

You're missing the whole point. Your first post said you're looking to reduce your heating costs. Well the standard motors that aren't DC will cost 5 times the amount to run as a DC motor will cost to run. With rising hydro costs and when the stupid smart meters kick in, you'll be wishin gto god that you had bought the DC motor. It will pay for itself.

Also note the labour warranty. I'm sure it's 1 year. Something to consider as thats pretty lousy.

[jerlove]

You're missing the whole point. Your first post said you're looking to reduce your heating costs. Well the standard motors that aren't DC will cost 5 times the amount to run as a DC motor will cost to run. With rising hydro costs and when the stupid smart meters kick in, you'll be wishin gto god that you had bought the DC motor. It will pay for itself.

Also note the labour warranty. I'm sure it's 1 year. Something to consider as thats pretty lousy.

Thank you for your response. The two that I am debating between both have the DC motor. I have already decided that that is a must.

Where my dilema comes in is between the Payne and Bryant which have essentialy the same features according to the spec sheets but have a 3%eff difference and $500.00 difference in price.

[jaszy]

Question from a noobie! Here's me and my 'rents situation. Our home is ~2000 sq. ft, detached. Original owner (resale home) had an AC but took it off to save money (?). Wiring looks salvageable. So now we're planning on replacing the current medium efficiency furnace (almost dying) and also adding in an a/c for next season, which apparently is a good idea since they can just do it in one visit.

I've been quoted the following:

Carrier 58UVB060 60K BTU Furnace @ $3,500
Carrier 24ABB324 2Ton A/C @ $2,450
= $5,950

Goodman GMVC95070 70k BTU Furnace @ $2,950
Goodman SSX1424 $2Ton A/C @ $2,300
= $5,250

The prices above do not take into account Government and OPA rebate cheques, which would deduct roughly ~$1300. Gov: $790 for the furnace; OPA: $150 for the furnace, $400 for the A/C.

I've been told that these prices (together) include the thermostat (forgot to ask which. I'm assuming basic. Honeywell?). Installation fee is included in the cost as well. 10 years for parts, Lifetime on Heat Exchanger (For the carrier, secondary has 20 years) and I'm assuming, 1 year labor. I was also offered to extend it to 10 years labor for the Carrier and Goodman packages, $450 and $150 respectively. Contractor is pushing Carrier sales. Here's the kicker. Pay cash and get the quotes above, tax-free. Pay with cheque or other forms of payment, HST is applied. In other words, we'd get charged an extra 13%. I've been told by my dad that this is a way to attract customers. For some reason, my spidey senses are tingling. Is this too good to be true? Thoughts?

Edit: I admit, I haven't read this thread (it's huge!) but i'll definitely skim it and do more research. Thanks in advance. Any tips/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Edit 2: Ah yes, will definitely get another quote or two from other HVAC contractors/companies.

[nighthawk26]

Question from a noobie! Here's me and my 'rents situation. Our home is ~2000 sq. ft, detached. Original owner (resale home) had an AC but took it off to save money (?). Wiring looks salvageable. So now we're planning on replacing the current medium efficiency furnace (almost dying) and also adding in an a/c for next season, which apparently is a good idea since they can just do it in one visit.

I've been quoted the following:

Carrier 58UVB060 60K BTU Furnace @ $3,500
Carrier 24ABB324 2Ton A/C @ $2,450
= $5,950

Goodman GMVC95070 70k BTU Furnace @ $2,950
Goodman SSX1424 $2Ton A/C @ $2,300
= $5,250

The prices above do not take into account Government and OPA rebate cheques, which would deduct roughly ~$1300. Gov: $790 for the furnace; OPA: $150 for the furnace, $400 for the A/C.

I've been told that these prices (together) include the thermostat (forgot to ask which. I'm assuming basic. Honeywell?). Installation fee is included in the cost as well. 10 years for parts, Lifetime on Heat Exchanger (For the carrier, secondary has 20 years) and I'm assuming, 1 year labor. I was also offered to extend it to 10 years labor for the Carrier and Goodman packages, $450 and $150 respectively. Contractor is pushing Carrier sales. Here's the kicker. Pay cash and get the quotes above, tax-free. Pay with cheque or other forms of payment, HST is applied. In other words, we'd get charged an extra 13%. I've been told by my dad that this is a way to attract customers. For some reason, my spidey senses are tingling. Is this too good to be true? Thoughts?

Edit: I admit, I haven't read this thread (it's huge!) but i'll definitely skim it and do more research. Thanks in advance. Any tips/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Edit 2: Ah yes, will definitely get another quote or two from other HVAC contractors/companies.



I'm not saying this is wrong casue I'd have to check the ARI website but the Carrier AC you've been quoted is a 13 SEER, not the required 14.5 Three is a chance with the coil they are using and the variable speed furnace that it gets bumped but thats not for sure. If it didn't you would not get those rebates.

As for the pricing, and the discounts offered. Something doesn't seem right at all. Mind you, all sorts of guys pop up in this business, and don't pay taxes, hide income, etc, etc so when all things considered he could very well be making the same money at the end of the day. My issue with people this is if they skip corners like this, do you really thing they are legit in everything else they do? Food for thought.

[Lumber-jack]

I have read that the wick or flow through type of humidifiers can use up to 8 gallons of water per day but an installer recommended this type of humidifier. I bought at CT the Desert Spring furnace humidifier on sale for $199 reg $299 last month http://www.highqproducts.com/ I know that I will have to clean this type of filter each year but I think that this type of humidifier is better as it won't use as much water. Any comments or suggestions?

[iherald]

I have read that the wick or flow through type of humidifiers can use up to 8 gallons of water per day but an installer recommended this type of humidifier. I bought at CT the Desert Spring furnace humidifier on sale for $199 reg $299 last month http://www.highqproducts.com/ I know that I will have to clean this type of filter each year but I think that this type of humidifier is better as it won't use as much water. Any comments or suggestions?

The link shows that this version can use up to 14 gallons per day. Any idea how much it actually uses in a day? Does anyone know the average usage for a 'normal' humdifier?

I'm looking at a new furnace, and I have a humdifier on there already. But it's an old one, I've thought about upgrading to the pulsing Desert Spring, but I'm not sure if it will save me that much water.

[iherald]

I currently have a 1998 "high" efficiency Lennox gas furnace. I'm not able to find any information online about what the AFUE would be on it. But, I've been told by two different furnace sales people that it is a high efficiency furnace from 98.

I have two questions:

1) What would the approximate AFUE be?
2) I was considering getting a new furnace to get the eco energy audit money. However, now that I know my old furnace (which has caused me no problems) is a pretty good one, is it crazy to buy a new furnace just for the rebate? Assuming it's properly taken care of, how long do furnaces last? (I guess that's three questions). :)

[glenn8]

Hi Guys I need some help.

I have what I believe a Heil DC90 gas furnace. Anyhow tonight for some reason the blower fan stayed on even when the temperature was reached. I tried flicking it from On to Auto, but it stayed on even when I turned the thermostat to off.
Anyhow I went to turn the power to the furnace off, and then back on to see if it would reset itself, but now it seems the heat isn't working :(.
Anyone have suggestion on what I should be checking first? I'm quit the novice at this stuff so any help is greatly appreciated.

[bririp]

I currently have a 1998 "high" efficiency Lennox gas furnace. I'm not able to find any information online about what the AFUE would be on it. But, I've been told by two different furnace sales people that it is a high efficiency furnace from 98.

I have two questions:

1) What would the approximate AFUE be?
2) I was considering getting a new furnace to get the eco energy audit money. However, now that I know my old furnace (which has caused me no problems) is a pretty good one, is it crazy to buy a new furnace just for the rebate? Assuming it's properly taken care of, how long do furnaces last? (I guess that's three questions). :)

Most likely your furnace is 90.1% afue. Is it the builder model from when the house was new? You should be able to expect at least 15 years out of most furnaces that have been installed properly. The issue with new homes and their original furnaces is that all kinds of stuff gets sucked into the unit during construction, such as drywall dust, dirt,... Is your furnace working ok today?

It isn't soo crazy to get a furnace now since you know you will get $$ back, but it is a gamble. Maybe you don't replace it and they don't renew the rebates and your furnace needs to be changed this april. Maybe you choose to change it and it would have gone on problem free for another 15 years...its really just a guess. You can have a contractor in to take a look at your system and check the components out to see if they are showing signs of wear.

my 2 cents

[bririp]

Hi Guys I need some help.

I have what I believe a Heil DC90 gas furnace. Anyhow tonight for some reason the blower fan stayed on even when the temperature was reached. I tried flicking it from On to Auto, but it stayed on even when I turned the thermostat to off.
Anyhow I went to turn the power to the furnace off, and then back on to see if it would reset itself, but now it seems the heat isn't working :(.
Anyone have suggestion on what I should be checking first? I'm quit the novice at this stuff so any help is greatly appreciated.

Furnaces are not a DIY job! they are dangerous and can cause serious harm and death if you play around with it and don't know what you are doing.

To me it sounds like the thermostat may be shorted out, or a high limit switch may be gone...etc..

You need a pro to diagnose this. Call in your contractor!

[bririp]

Question from a noobie! Here's me and my 'rents situation. Our home is ~2000 sq. ft, detached. Original owner (resale home) had an AC but took it off to save money (?). Wiring looks salvageable. So now we're planning on replacing the current medium efficiency furnace (almost dying) and also adding in an a/c for next season, which apparently is a good idea since they can just do it in one visit.

I've been quoted the following:

Carrier 58UVB060 60K BTU Furnace @ $3,500
Carrier 24ABB324 2Ton A/C @ $2,450
= $5,950

Goodman GMVC95070 70k BTU Furnace @ $2,950
Goodman SSX1424 $2Ton A/C @ $2,300
= $5,250

The prices above do not take into account Government and OPA rebate cheques, which would deduct roughly ~$1300. Gov: $790 for the furnace; OPA: $150 for the furnace, $400 for the A/C.

I've been told that these prices (together) include the thermostat (forgot to ask which. I'm assuming basic. Honeywell?). Installation fee is included in the cost as well. 10 years for parts, Lifetime on Heat Exchanger (For the carrier, secondary has 20 years) and I'm assuming, 1 year labor. I was also offered to extend it to 10 years labor for the Carrier and Goodman packages, $450 and $150 respectively. Contractor is pushing Carrier sales. Here's the kicker. Pay cash and get the quotes above, tax-free. Pay with cheque or other forms of payment, HST is applied. In other words, we'd get charged an extra 13%. I've been told by my dad that this is a way to attract customers. For some reason, my spidey senses are tingling. Is this too good to be true? Thoughts?

Edit: I admit, I haven't read this thread (it's huge!) but i'll definitely skim it and do more research. Thanks in advance. Any tips/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Edit 2: Ah yes, will definitely get another quote or two from other HVAC contractors/companies.


I know the whole CASH deal thing is a great way to save money, however, if you pay CASH and don't get a receipt, how do you figure you will have a warranty? Is it worth risking any sort of warranty in order to save 13%? Most contractors will give a different price for cash/cheque compared to visa/mc because of the charges that are involved.

[iherald]

Most likely your furnace is 90.1% afue. Is it the builder model from when the house was new? You should be able to expect at least 15 years out of most furnaces that have been installed properly. The issue with new homes and their original furnaces is that all kinds of stuff gets sucked into the unit during construction, such as drywall dust, dirt,... Is your furnace working ok today?

It isn't soo crazy to get a furnace now since you know you will get $$ back, but it is a gamble. Maybe you don't replace it and they don't renew the rebates and your furnace needs to be changed this april. Maybe you choose to change it and it would have gone on problem free for another 15 years...its really just a guess. You can have a contractor in to take a look at your system and check the components out to see if they are showing signs of wear.

my 2 cents

My house is 100 years old, so it was added in 1998. But good idea to have it serviced and see if it is wearing out.

[dcjcdc]

have 5 year old 2200 square foot home,,but find lots of heat goes to the basement...put duct tape on the basement vents,,,but still find basement warmer than main floor and upstairs...

[bririp]

have 5 year old 2200 square foot home,,but find lots of heat goes to the basement...put duct tape on the basement vents,,,but still find basement warmer than main floor and upstairs...

You should get a contractor in to take a look, or look around yourself. It sounds like there might be a large hole in your system. This happens quite often when a vent pipe going upstairs gets dislodged. You can also consider duct sealing all of the pipes/ducts in the basement.

[iherald]

have 5 year old 2200 square foot home,,but find lots of heat goes to the basement...put duct tape on the basement vents,,,but still find basement warmer than main floor and upstairs...

Duct tape won't help much. You need tuck tape (looks similar, but it's for high heat applications). If you really have an issue, actually cover the vents with metal to close them up permanently.

[bririp]

Duct tape won't help much. You need tuck tape (looks similar, but it's for high heat applications). If you really have an issue, actually cover the vents with metal to close them up permanently.

Duct tape is absolutely not the correct tape to use. Tuck tape is not either. If you are going to use tape, foil tape (looks like aluminum foil) is the proper method.

My suggestion is to use Commercial grade duct sealant. It stinks when applying it...but it works. You paint it on to the seams and let it dry and voila you are finished and it will never come off.

Best seal possible.

[glenn8]

Furnaces are not a DIY job! they are dangerous and can cause serious harm and death if you play around with it and don't know what you are doing.

To me it sounds like the thermostat may be shorted out, or a high limit switch may be gone...etc..

You need a pro to diagnose this. Call in your contractor!

Well I got the heat working again. Supposedly there's a "reset" button next to the combustion chamber.
Anyhow the fan is still stuck on though. Anyone have any recommendations for furnace service in Ottawa? Thanks!

[threeflags]

What are good premium brands and good brands. I read some threads and Carrier and Lennon were mentioned as good brands but not premium brands. So what brands should I look out for and to avoid. I never thought highly of York but some threads seem to think that this is a pretty good one. One gas guy thought Payne wasn't bad if I didn't want to pay Carrier prices as both are made by the same people.

My current model is a Heil DC90 with damaged heat exchanger. As original owner, I believe I can get a free replacement less labour. Did the company "fix" the original design? Am I to expect this to be an issue a few years down the road? If the labour is not too bad I may concern replacing it and going on a insurance package. The gas control and well as the glow tube has been changed so those should be better than the original equipment.

If I can get a good price on a replacement that qualifies for the Gov't rebates I may just pay for it ( I got the energy audit done last year). Do the Prov of Ontario match those grants from the Feds? For windows I believe they do.

Much thanks.

[iherald]

What are good premium brands and good brands. I read some threads and Carrier and Lennon were mentioned as good brands but not premium brands. So what brands should I look out for and to avoid. I never thought highly of York but some threads seem to think that this is a pretty good one. One gas guy thought Payne wasn't bad if I didn't want to pay Carrier prices as both are made by the same people.

My current model is a Heil DC90 with damaged heat exchanger. As original owner, I believe I can get a free replacement less labour. Did the company "fix" the original design? Am I to expect this to be an issue a few years down the road? If the labour is not too bad I may concern replacing it and going on a insurance package. The gas control and well as the glow tube has been changed so those should be better than the original equipment.

If I can get a good price on a replacement that qualifies for the Gov't rebates I may just pay for it ( I got the energy audit done last year). Do the Prov of Ontario match those grants from the Feds? For windows I believe they do.

Much thanks.

If you are eligible for the federal grant money, Ontario doubles it. Don't forget you only have 18 months (or march 2011, whichever is sooner) to get it all done.

[janaka]

What are good premium brands and good brands. I read some threads and Carrier and Lennon were mentioned as good brands but not premium brands. So what brands should I look out for and to avoid. I never thought highly of York but some threads seem to think that this is a pretty good one. One gas guy thought Payne wasn't bad if I didn't want to pay Carrier prices as both are made by the same people.

My current model is a Heil DC90 with damaged heat exchanger. As original owner, I believe I can get a free replacement less labour. Did the company "fix" the original design? Am I to expect this to be an issue a few years down the road? If the labour is not too bad I may concern replacing it and going on a insurance package. The gas control and well as the glow tube has been changed so those should be better than the original equipment.

If I can get a good price on a replacement that qualifies for the Gov't rebates I may just pay for it ( I got the energy audit done last year). Do the Prov of Ontario match those grants from the Feds? For windows I believe they do.

Much thanks.
Carrier, Lennox, York are all good brands. American Standard aren't bad either but I'm not too knowledgable about them honestly. They would probably be the top 3/4 brands in the market today.

If you had the audit done before April 1 of 2010 then you will qualify for $1300 on a replacement furnace (over 94% with DC motor) plus an additional $150 from the OPA.

Last I heard the HE design as NOT changed on the Heil's. IMO its not a wise investment to fix those units when the government will give you the $1450 towards a new unit which will save marginally more fuel plus a boat load of hydro, plus you'll now have a complete unit warranty

[enko]

Wanted to chime in here on thermostats.

I've been using this for about 6 months now.

http://www.amazon.com/Lux-Products-CAG1500-Programmable-Thermostat/dp/B0010VZYIG

I couldn't be happier. The clean-cycle is great. Basically, if you're in-between seasons, it will still run your furnace fan for a certain amount of time which you can set. For example, I set mine to 15 minutes. So it will run for 15 minutes out of the hour (five minutes each at :00, :20, :40).

This is great for my highrise, as I often need very little heating in the winter until late December. Before, this meant no air circulation/filtration. I don't leave the fan on all the time because in the condo, it means for noisy times since I have no basement :) For others, you might not want it on all the time for electricity savings.

Highly recommend it. Not to mention it's easy to program, and you can pull it off the wall to do that :)

[lostintranslation]

Hello,
I live in the Toronto area and I have been given an HVAC quote for my Completely NEW home that I am BUILDING and wish to have some feedback on how good of an HVAC quote it is.

the home is approx 1400 square feet of liveable space with a (576 square foot basement)

Here are the specs of the quote:

Supply and install 60 000 Airease, 95% eff. 2 stage high eff. furnace.
Supply and install 2 ton 13 seer Airease condensor and evaporator coil.
Supply and install new 3/8 and 3/4 line set including armour flex.
Supply and install 18/2 low voltage control from condensor to furnace board.
Supply and install exhaust fans as per drawing and terminated to the outdoors. (Electrical to be connected by electrical contractor.)
Supply and install HEPA filter (whole house application).
Supply and install all duct work as per drawings (including insulated duct work that will run through the garage).
Supply and install gas pipe from meter to furnace. Also supply gas pipe rough in to rented water heater.

All line voltage connections to gas appliances to be completed by electrical contractor.

Finishing grills to be completed by home owner as per their preference.

all in for $12,000.00 Before Taxes.

cost is and issue so I'm really wondering if this is a respectable quote?

[cividan]

I have a combo heat-pump / electric furnace this is a old unit 15+ years, it's working good but I would like to replace the old mercury thermostat for a new programmable 7 days electronic thermostat, I went to a local dealer and they said it should cost between 350$-500$ I saw some on the internet for sale at around 150$. Is this as easy as replacing electric baseboard thermostat as I did that in the old appartment and it was easy but the guy was talking about changing from a 5 wire system to a 2 wire system so I would like some info as how hard it is to do it myself before paying someone that overcharge.

Thanks !

[threeflags]

Between 2 Lennox furnace.

G61MPV or SLP98 (is this a modulation furnace ?).
The price difference is about $4 - 500. So which one would be the better buy?

Thanks.

Chime in if you think there is a better one to consider.

Finally, HRV or ERV in GTA area? I asked 2 pros and got 2 different answers.

Much thanks.

[janaka]

Between 2 Lennox furnace.

G61MPV or SLP98 (is this a modulation furnace ?).
The price difference is about $4 - 500. So which one would be the better buy?

Thanks.

Chime in if you think there is a better one to consider.

Finally, HRV or ERV in GTA area? I asked 2 pros and got 2 different answers.

Much thanks.

The SLP should be the more advanced furnace but IMO it was JUST released and is NEW completely which asks how reliable is it since there is no track record. If you are after a modulating furnace, look at the York YP9C as a comparision.
Also if there is only that price difference then either the G61 is over priced or they are really trying to get the slp out there to get real world feedback. I personally am not a fan of being a tester for a heating product in our climate, but thats just me.
HRV for Canadian applications for the winter dehumidification which we tend to need in tight homes.

[janaka]

Hello,
I live in the Toronto area and I have been given an HVAC quote for my Completely NEW home that I am BUILDING and wish to have some feedback on how good of an HVAC quote it is.

the home is approx 1400 square feet of liveable space with a (576 square foot basement)

Here are the specs of the quote:

Supply and install 60 000 Airease, 95% eff. 2 stage high eff. furnace.
Supply and install 2 ton 13 seer Airease condensor and evaporator coil.
Supply and install new 3/8 and 3/4 line set including armour flex.
Supply and install 18/2 low voltage control from condensor to furnace board.
Supply and install exhaust fans as per drawing and terminated to the outdoors. (Electrical to be connected by electrical contractor.)
Supply and install HEPA filter (whole house application).
Supply and install all duct work as per drawings (including insulated duct work that will run through the garage).
Supply and install gas pipe from meter to furnace. Also supply gas pipe rough in to rented water heater.

All line voltage connections to gas appliances to be completed by electrical contractor.

Finishing grills to be completed by home owner as per their preference.

all in for $12,000.00 Before Taxes.

cost is and issue so I'm really wondering if this is a respectable quote?
No HRV in a new home? You should include one. Sounds fair for a price but if you are choosing the equipment buy something better than airease.

[nighthawk26]

Hello,
I live in the Toronto area and I have been given an HVAC quote for my Completely NEW home that I am BUILDING and wish to have some feedback on how good of an HVAC quote it is.

the home is approx 1400 square feet of liveable space with a (576 square foot basement)

Here are the specs of the quote:

Supply and install 60 000 Airease, 95% eff. 2 stage high eff. furnace.
Supply and install 2 ton 13 seer Airease condensor and evaporator coil.
Supply and install new 3/8 and 3/4 line set including armour flex.
Supply and install 18/2 low voltage control from condensor to furnace board.
Supply and install exhaust fans as per drawing and terminated to the outdoors. (Electrical to be connected by electrical contractor.)
Supply and install HEPA filter (whole house application).
Supply and install all duct work as per drawings (including insulated duct work that will run through the garage).
Supply and install gas pipe from meter to furnace. Also supply gas pipe rough in to rented water heater.

All line voltage connections to gas appliances to be completed by electrical contractor.

Finishing grills to be completed by home owner as per their preference.

all in for $12,000.00 Before Taxes.

cost is and issue so I'm really wondering if this is a respectable quote?

Do yourself a favour, and get a unit with a DC, Variable speed motor. Also not a fan of the brand but if you want a builder grade furnace, it is what it is.

As mentioned, I'd strongly suggest an HRV. If budget is the issue, consider if an HEPA system is REALLY necessary for you and save there.

[bririp]

Between 2 Lennox furnace.

G61MPV or SLP98 (is this a modulation furnace ?).
The price difference is about $4 - 500. So which one would be the better buy?

Thanks.

Chime in if you think there is a better one to consider.

Finally, HRV or ERV in GTA area? I asked 2 pros and got 2 different answers.

Much thanks.

I am not an expert on Lennox so I can't chime in on that.

In terms of HRV vs ERV, ERV is 100% the way to go in our climate. The HRV cannot be used during the spring/summer months as it will just pull in humid air. The main issue that people see with ERV's is the defrost control not being up to par therefore some lower end units will have problems with freezing up in the winter. The VanEE and Trane/American Standard units are what we install and have amazing defrost controls on them. In a properly balanced system, they work best all year round.

The argument is that you do not need an HRV in the summer as you can open your window. With many households being dependant on A/C, who wants to open a window and loose all of the conditioned air?

As you mentionned, contractors vary in their opinion, but I can tell you that we specialize in indoor air quality, including these appliances, and our opinion,and VanEE's, is that our climate is best suited for a ERV.

Summary:

HRV 7-8 months of the year
ERV 12 months of the year

[kashman]

Quick question for the experts. I have been looking for a new furnace and A/C for my home (3000 sq ft) in Mississauga and have narrowed the search down to 2 dealers both providing York. One of my concerns was my current A/C (keeprite 3ton model) being unable to cool the 2nd floor in the house during summers. Both the dealers mentioned that the new units have a high speed blower motor which should resolve this issue to certain limit. However, one dealer wanted to install the 1600 cfm version of the TM9V furnace while the other mentioned that 1200 cfm should suffice for the size of the house and the available ductwork.
Not sure who is right here and is it even something I should worry about. Any help would be appreciated.

[threeflags]

The SLP should be the more advanced furnace but IMO it was JUST released and is NEW completely which asks how reliable is it since there is no track record. If you are after a modulating furnace, look at the York YP9C as a comparision.
Also if there is only that price difference then either the G61 is over priced or they are really trying to get the slp out there to get real world feedback. I personally am not a fan of being a tester for a heating product in our climate, but thats just me.
HRV for Canadian applications for the winter dehumidification which we tend to need in tight homes.

Thanks for the reply.

Just over $4 K for the G61 (FYI). So I think they just want to move the SLP. Do you know when that model came out?

I'm starting to reconsider the SLP for the York YP9C.

With the mod furnaces, can I still get use of my current power humidifier (General 1042) and my 14 yr old Lennox A/C? Both units never had any services issues and still appears to work fine. How does a mod furnace work with such a "old" A/C I wonder? Does the blower still operate most of the time?

Thanks.

[QuestForKnowledge]

A quick question for the pros out there. If you just installed a furnace with a variable speed motor, what speed should the fan run on when just filtering air? Specifics: the furnace is a York YP9C, 1600 cfm, with an Aprilaire 4400. We want to run this on continuous for both constant air filtering as well as to keep airflow in the house to help even temperature distribution. Just wondering what the proper/ideal fan speed would be in this situation and why? As always, many thanks in advance!!

[cividan]

I feel that my question has been lost in the fume so I'll quote myself in hope somone can give some advice on it.

Thanks !


I have a combo heat-pump / electric furnace this is a old unit 15+ years, it's working good but I would like to replace the old mercury thermostat for a new programmable 7 days electronic thermostat, I went to a local dealer and they said it should cost between 350$-500$ I saw some on the internet for sale at around 150$. Is this as easy as replacing electric baseboard thermostat as I did that in the old appartment and it was easy but the guy was talking about changing from a 5 wire system to a 2 wire system so I would like some info as how hard it is to do it myself before paying someone that overcharge.

Thanks !

[threeflags]

Replacing the old furnace. Should I consider a duct cleaning before or after the new installation? I'm think before the new one comes in as why should you subject the new furance to the dust.

P.S. Brought house new (15 years) and never had the ducts cleaned before.

[janaka]

Replacing the old furnace. Should I consider a duct cleaning before or after the new installation? I'm think before the new one comes in as why should you subject the new furance to the dust.

P.S. Brought house new (15 years) and never had the ducts cleaned before.

if you are doing it then definitely before hand.

[janaka]

Thanks for the reply.

Just over $4 K for the G61 (FYI). So I think they just want to move the SLP. Do you know when that model came out?

I'm starting to reconsider the SLP for the York YP9C.

With the mod furnaces, can I still get use of my current power humidifier (General 1042) and my 14 yr old Lennox A/C? Both units never had any services issues and still appears to work fine. How does a mod furnace work with such a "old" A/C I wonder? Does the blower still operate most of the time?

Thanks.

$4K for a G61 is quite high IMO. The SLP was JUST released, like within 60days if not more recent.
You certainly can use a 1042 humidifier on the new furnaces without issue. A 14 yr old ac can be used on a new furnace, however most contractors should be recommending new R410a units to go with the furance to get the rebates and such. The new furnace will operate the same way with regards to the blower with an old or new ac as long as the installer sets it up properly. You as the user control whether its ON all the time or on auto.

[janaka]

Quick question for the experts. I have been looking for a new furnace and A/C for my home (3000 sq ft) in Mississauga and have narrowed the search down to 2 dealers both providing York. One of my concerns was my current A/C (keeprite 3ton model) being unable to cool the 2nd floor in the house during summers. Both the dealers mentioned that the new units have a high speed blower motor which should resolve this issue to certain limit. However, one dealer wanted to install the 1600 cfm version of the TM9V furnace while the other mentioned that 1200 cfm should suffice for the size of the house and the available ductwork.
Not sure who is right here and is it even something I should worry about. Any help would be appreciated.

Assuming they are offering 80k furnaces (have option for 1200/1600 cfm) you will be fine with 1200 cfm as you only need 400cfm/ton cooling. plus for 1600cfm fan you probably dont have the required cold air returns to pull that CFM anyway.

[kashman]

Assuming they are offering 80k furnaces (have option for 1200/1600 cfm) you will be fine with 1200 cfm as you only need 400cfm/ton cooling. plus for 1600cfm fan you probably dont have the required cold air returns to pull that CFM anyway.

Got it. thanks.

[QuestForKnowledge]

A quick question for the pros out there. If you just installed a furnace with a variable speed motor, what speed should the fan run on when just filtering air? Specifics: the furnace is a York YP9C, 1600 cfm, with an Aprilaire 4400. We want to run this on continuous for both constant air filtering as well as to keep airflow in the house to help even temperature distribution. Just wondering what the proper/ideal fan speed would be in this situation and why? As always, many thanks in advance!!

Thoughts anyone?

[Justpete]

I need a new thermostat which randomly turns on the fan for a percentage of time.

I was looking at Honeywell's site but they don't really say which *new* thermostats have it...

Anyone know a good solid one that's available in Canada? Must be programmable too (5+2) or better.

[bririp]

I need a new thermostat which randomly turns on the fan for a percentage of time.

I was looking at Honeywell's site but they don't really say which *new* thermostats have it...

Anyone know a good solid one that's available in Canada? Must be programmable too (5+2) or better.

Are you looking to have one installed? There is a professional model called the vision pro IAQ and it has a circ function on it. Many brands offer this feature . Look for Circ function

[enko]

I need a new thermostat which randomly turns on the fan for a percentage of time.

I was looking at Honeywell's site but they don't really say which *new* thermostats have it...

Anyone know a good solid one that's available in Canada? Must be programmable too (5+2) or better.

I just posted this like 2 days ago :)

Lux CAG1500
http://www.amazon.com/Lux-Products-CAG1500-Programmable-Thermostat/dp/B0010VZYIG

[Justpete]

Are you looking to have one installed? There is a professional model called the vision pro IAQ and it has a circ function on it. Many brands offer this feature . Look for Circ function

Is there a benefit to having one installed professionally? (ie, more features available) or something? (such as humidity, perhaps?)

I was looking for the circ function and random, but they seem to generate other hits rather than anything solid.

I was aiming to keep using Honeywells, because I like the one I have, it just doesn't have the circulation feature. What about those fancy new LCD ones? do they have circ on them? I couldn't tell from the documentation on the website.

[enko]

Is there a benefit to having one installed professionally?

Other then paying a lot of money, I doubt it. Thermostats are quite straightforward. If you're on RFD, and can use a screwdriver, I'm guessing you can probably handle it.

Seriously, check out the LUX product I posted. It's about 1/3 of the price. I payed 78$ to my door. But it actually arrived late, and Amazon.com refunded the 22$ for shipping.

I had an issue with my unit. It worked but sometimes the LCD would start glitching if I turned on the Indiglo. They Fedex'd me a replacement 2nd day shipping, and provided a box and prepaid shipping for the defective unit back to them. Didn't even have to touch a telephone, I just emailed them and said my unit was having some issues.

[Unnatural]

Is there a benefit to having one installed professionally? (ie, more features available) or something? (such as humidity, perhaps?)

I was looking for the circ function and random, but they seem to generate other hits rather than anything solid.

I was aiming to keep using Honeywells, because I like the one I have, it just doesn't have the circulation feature. What about those fancy new LCD ones? do they have circ on them? I couldn't tell from the documentation on the website.

Go with the Honeywell VisionPro. No need to go with the VisionPro IAQ. The IAQ version is more advanced; all the relays are in a separate box that you install near the furnace.
Yes, the VisionPro has a CIRC option. The screen is big and has a green backlight.
By the way, if you want to have the backlight on all the time, you need to feed 24VAC to the thermostat (from the furnace board).

[bririp]

Yes there is an advantage, the unit will be set up properly and tuned to your system. This isn't to say homeowner cannot do this, however there are a lot of feature that wont work properly if they are not set up properly.

One of the largest reasons for service calls, no heat/cool situations, is customer installed thermostats. Just remember it isn't only hooking up the wires.

I do agree to stick with Honeywell or White Rodgers...Lots of issues with Lux, but they are great for contractors!

[Justpete]

Yes there is an advantage, the unit will be set up properly and tuned to your system. This isn't to say homeowner cannot do this, however there are a lot of feature that wont work properly if they are not set up properly.

One of the largest reasons for service calls, no heat/cool situations, is customer installed thermostats. Just remember it isn't only hooking up the wires.

I do agree to stick with Honeywell or White Rodgers...Lots of issues with Lux, but they are great for contractors!


I set up my other Honeywell and never had an issue.

I am only considering a new one because I want/need the circ feature.

[Justpete]

I just posted this like 2 days ago :)

Lux CAG1500
http://www.amazon.com/Lux-Products-CAG1500-Programmable-Thermostat/dp/B0010VZYIG

I failed to mention that I have a heat pump...

Looks like the Lux is compatible.

I really want one now that monitors outside humidity and temperature and adjusts accordingly (and efficiently).

Does Lux have a model with an outdoor monitor?

[threeflags]

The more I look the more confused I get.

Looking for a modulating furnace. Was considering the Lennox SLP but the thought here was that it new for Lennox and there isn't any track record frot his machine. So that eliminated it for me. Reading throught he posts, the York YP9C would be the one. But speaking with someone who sells both ... they think the Carrier Infinity (plus matching tstat) is the better one. So now the confusion. Which one.

Another thought, if I package a A/C into the deal ... which of the 2 (York or Carrier) makes a superior A/C?

What should I do with my current Lennox AC? It's about 15 years old and it runs fine. Never had to repair it after all of these years. Is there a market to sell it? Would hate to just throw it away.

Any suggestions of HVAC websites to consult in addition to here?

Thanks.

[Pete_Coach]

The more I look the more confused I get.

.........

Any suggestions of HVAC websites to consult in addition to here?

Thanks.
That is one of the truest statements made here.

I have been following and have contributed my experiences and pricing etc on this thread. I had also said that it is more confusing than helpful sometimes.
What I have learned from the experienced, well respected experts here (Nighthawk 26 and Limoges_Shopper in particular, although they have been less active lately, I specifically thank them greatly for theiir time and insight) is that the newest technology is often the best. That the differences between top brands is so very very little and, installation is extremely important and worth at least half the value of the entire deal.
I also learned that proper maintenance is essential with the newer technology, regardless of brand.
Lastly, I learned that you should deal with someone who has been in the business for a long time, has seen the changes, has a good relationship with the OEM and, has good installers, regardless of brand. All that being equal, all that separates them in the end, will be the cost.

[janaka]

The more I look the more confused I get.

Looking for a modulating furnace. Was considering the Lennox SLP but the thought here was that it new for Lennox and there isn't any track record frot his machine. So that eliminated it for me. Reading throught he posts, the York YP9C would be the one. But speaking with someone who sells both ... they think the Carrier Infinity (plus matching tstat) is the better one. So now the confusion. Which one.

Another thought, if I package a A/C into the deal ... which of the 2 (York or Carrier) makes a superior A/C?

What should I do with my current Lennox AC? It's about 15 years old and it runs fine. Never had to repair it after all of these years. Is there a market to sell it? Would hate to just throw it away.

Any suggestions of HVAC websites to consult in addition to here?

Thanks.

For what its worth Carrier does not make a modulating furnace. Their Infinity line up has the MVB which is a 2stage or the MVC (ICS) model is a 3stage.

What do YOU place value on to be 'better' ? Sound ratings? Efficiency? Warranty? Looks? Size? Everyone places value on different things so there is no "best" IMO

[Possum77]

BTW, could anyone recommend an experienced Carrier dealer somewhere in GTA? I have a couple from Laurent, but they are selling AmStandard.

[balou911]

Im looking for some hvac stuff.
mostly, a good erv, say 100cfm.
honeywell 6gallon truesteam
an electronic air cleaner
honeywell vision pro iaq or prestige hd
(to run these 3 items plus my lennox g71 furnace)

what kind of ballpark figure am I looking at, parts and installation wise?

[dasdj]

Hi

I have a question about the slope of the air exhaust and air intake pipes from the funace, should they be sloping towards the furnace or out towards the external wall (in other words should any water drain towards the funace or towards the outside wall??) if towards the furnace does the water accumulation damage the furnace? Also regarding the air exhaust outside vent should it be a 90degree or straight vent or a 45degree angle pipe?

Thanks for your help!

[threeflags]

Talking to a sales person, it was mentioned that the York's secondary exchanger heat exchanger was a bad design. York was using a design similar to what you see in an A/C (outside grill - the fins are very close together) and that over time dust would build up and rob it of its effficiency.

That does sound logically to me but what do I know? Is this real or false?

Then they showed me the Carrier Infinity ICS model and said, look what they do?

This dealer sells both but I thought that they were trying to not sell me the York brand for some reason. Reading the threads, many of the posters speak highly of this York unit.

We didn't talk much about York so I didn't get alot of information. Which Compnay has the better warranty? Do I need to get an annual inspection to keep my warranty valid?

Finally, for A/C ... which one makes the better product?

Much thanks.


P.S. Then I heard about the "recall" that Carrier is in - bad heat exchangers. If they were so great, why this problem for them.

[janaka]

MANY MANY brands use a finned 2ndary HE, Lennox is another. Carrier uses their plate design which had the class action lawsuit on once upon a time. That is also their limiting factor in why their AFUE's are lower if I'm not mistaken bc they can't get any more efficiency from that HE design.

Can the 2ndary HE get clogged with dust and such? Yup. BUT you'd need to be pretty negligent to have it happen. This is where the better rated air cleaners come into play. Small investment to protect the large investment while giving other benefits to the homeowner (better air, cleaner house etc).

Warranty is 10yrs parts for both brands from the manufacturer's then York gives lifetime on the primary HE. Carrier is life on the primary and 20yrs on the 2ndary (due to that lawsuit I mentioned earlier). Which is "better" will come down usually to which is giving you the better LABOUR warranty. I know we are offering ALL York products with the YorkCare extended warranty included which negates the need to do annual maintenence in order to keep the warranties in place. This is a hgue savings over a 10yr term.

AC's - Both make comparable products. Look at physical size and the compare them, some units are huge which some homeowners aren't aware of till its too late.

[nighthawk26]

Hi

I have a question about the slope of the air exhaust and air intake pipes from the funace, should they be sloping towards the furnace or out towards the external wall (in other words should any water drain towards the funace or towards the outside wall??) if towards the furnace does the water accumulation damage the furnace? Also regarding the air exhaust outside vent should it be a 90degree or straight vent or a 45degree angle pipe?

Thanks for your help!

Pipes depend on the equipment and how many bends and length of pipe is already there. They will angle towards the furnace, they are supposed to. This is a condensing furnace, thats why it has a drain.

I suspect you've had an install and don't trust it was done correctly. My suggestion is call and ask. These should be professionals with licenses on the line. If you did your research to choose a reputable company, I assure you, trust what they have to say.

[dasdj]

Pipes depend on the equipment and how many bends and length of pipe is already there. They will angle towards the furnace, they are supposed to. This is a condensing furnace, thats why it has a drain.

I suspect you've had an install and don't trust it was done correctly. My suggestion is call and ask. These should be professionals with licenses on the line. If you did your research to choose a reputable company, I assure you, trust what they have to say.

Thanks for your reply. Actually I don't doubt that it was done correctly, I'm just curious as to if this could cause rust in the unit...and also if there isn't a better way to protect the unit from birds nesting, snow/ice accumulation, etc...

[nighthawk26]

Thanks for your reply. Actually I don't doubt that it was done correctly, I'm just curious as to if this could cause rust in the unit...and also if there isn't a better way to protect the unit from birds nesting, snow/ice accumulation, etc...

There should be no ice collection other than the typical icecicle from the vents. As long as everything is connected properly there should be no drainage, just water draining through the appropriate lines.

[j8lam]

I had an HRV installed this summer from a pretty big Lennox dealer in the GTA. Recently, I had a home inspector mention that he couldn't find a sticker verifying the system was balanced. Is a sticker mandatory? How bad is it if the unit actually wasn't balanced? There's just a few short runs of 6" insulated flex duct, so I wouldn't think there would be much to cause the balance to be off. I'd just like to get some background information on how badly the vendor screwed up, if at all, before I call them, since I need to get some other HVAC work done and want to know if I have any leverage to ask for a discount or if I should go to a completely different company.

[notchy]

I have a question about cold air returns in basement.

I'm having my basement done and I have 6 supply vents and a HVAC guy told me they output 50 CFM a piece so I will need 3 returns which each handles 100 CFM. Will this provide comfort in the basement? Is it necessary?

[THE_click]

I have a question about cold air returns in basement.

I'm having my basement done and I have 6 supply vents and a HVAC guy told me they output 50 CFM a piece so I will need 3 returns which each handles 100 CFM. Will this provide comfort in the basement? Is it necessary?


How big is your basement?

for most people, 1 -2 in a 1800-2400sq ft home is sufficient.

[bririp]

I have a question about cold air returns in basement.

I'm having my basement done and I have 6 supply vents and a HVAC guy told me they output 50 CFM a piece so I will need 3 returns which each handles 100 CFM. Will this provide comfort in the basement? Is it necessary?

Make sure the vents are brought down to floor level. They are useless up in the joist space.

[janaka]

Unless your basement is over 1000sq/ft and sectioned off 3 returns will probably be overkill. That said if they are easily run do it. Like mentioned above bring them to the floor for sure.

[notchy]

Unless your basement is over 1000sq/ft and sectioned off 3 returns will probably be overkill. That said if they are easily run do it. Like mentioned above bring them to the floor for sure.


The basement is 1500 sq ft with 2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom and a big area for tv and rec area (table tennis)

[janaka]

The basement is 1500 sq ft with 2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom and a big area for tv and rec area (table tennis)

2 to 3 returns is probably a good idea then.

[notchy]

It is good to know other thoughts on this as I wasn't sure if the HVAC guy was trying to up sell me on services.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

[kante]

Are there furnaces that allow for the return air duct to be placed at the rear of the furnace?

Is there a website that provides layman info re the various furnaces? For example, info as to whether York furnaces have a good reputation for reliability and durability?

Thanks

[j8lam]

I had an HRV installed this summer from a pretty big Lennox dealer in the GTA. Recently, I had a home inspector mention that he couldn't find a sticker verifying the system was balanced. Is a sticker mandatory? How bad is it if the unit actually wasn't balanced? There's just a few short runs of 6" insulated flex duct, so I wouldn't think there would be much to cause the balance to be off. I'd just like to get some background information on how badly the vendor screwed up, if at all, before I call them, since I need to get some other HVAC work done and want to know if I have any leverage to ask for a discount or if I should go to a completely different company.

Anyone? :(

[ur_too_crazy]

Small question. The main heating/Ac thermostat for the house is in the dining room. The builder installed a basic programmable thermostat (White Rodgers) . However there are 2 separate humidistats (?) in the basement of which one seems to control the furnace air exchanger (vanEE) and the other seems to control the humidifier hooked up to the furnace (Honeywell). My goal is to change the main thermostat with a model which will allow me to also control the humidity level in the house. I figure by having a thermostat read the humidity level in the main living area of the house rather than the basement, I will be able to achieve a better control. Any flaws in my thinking? I've seen some decent looking Honeywell thermostats that are able to read and control humidity as well as temperature. Which one of these two systems would it be tapped into to control humidity?

[biggerthanboykins]

I'm going to have the ducts cleaned in the house I just purchased. I'm not sure if I want to use Direct Energy's service as I think of them as the "dealership". Can anyone suggest a company or what I should be looking for when I am shopping around for this service.

[janaka]

Small question. The main heating/Ac thermostat for the house is in the dining room. The builder installed a basic programmable thermostat (White Rodgers) . However there are 2 separate humidistats (?) in the basement of which one seems to control the furnace air exchanger (vanEE) and the other seems to control the humidifier hooked up to the furnace (Honeywell). My goal is to change the main thermostat with a model which will allow me to also control the humidity level in the house. I figure by having a thermostat read the humidity level in the main living area of the house rather than the basement, I will be able to achieve a better control. Any flaws in my thinking? I've seen some decent looking Honeywell thermostats that are able to read and control humidity as well as temperature. Which one of these two systems would it be tapped into to control humidity?

the humidistat for the humidifier is run based on the relative humidity in the cold air return in the basement as it gets samples of air from all over the house.
you can get stats that can control the humidifier but IIRC they will still have a sensor in the cold air return so the 'control' is the same but you set it from upstairs not the basement which is a convienence.

[janaka]

Are there furnaces that allow for the return air duct to be placed at the rear of the furnace?

Is there a website that provides layman info re the various furnaces? For example, info as to whether York furnaces have a good reputation for reliability and durability?

Thanks

yes.

the internet generally speaking is a source of more MISinformation than information regarding most things HVAC as it is based on the "opinion" of a home owner and not a regulated test or proceedure. Like all things if you have a bad experience you tell 20 people and only 2 if its a good experience. Take the internet with a grain of salt otherwise you'll 'learn' about the failures of EVERY product on the market and you'll be worse off than you are now.

[Pete_Coach]

I had an HRV installed this summer from a pretty big Lennox dealer in the GTA. Recently, I had a home inspector mention that he couldn't find a sticker verifying the system was balanced. Is a sticker mandatory? How bad is it if the unit actually wasn't balanced? There's just a few short runs of 6" insulated flex duct, so I wouldn't think there would be much to cause the balance to be off. I'd just like to get some background information on how badly the vendor screwed up, if at all, before I call them, since I need to get some other HVAC work done and want to know if I have any leverage to ask for a discount or if I should go to a completely different company.


Anyone? :(
I am not certain there is a sticker/certificate or if one is even needed. If you had your furnace serviced, they normaly put a sticker on it as a reminder but, there is no "mandatory " sticker or tag except the one from the gas fitter.
Anyway, if you are concerned, checking the balance is an easy task.
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/gemare/gemare_004.cfm
Like all things with filters, you do need to do a bit of preventative maintenance over the course of the year.
When you are finished, put your own sticker on it :)

[j8lam]

I am not certain there is a sticker/certificate or if one is even needed. If you had your furnace serviced, they normaly put a sticker on it as a reminder but, there is no "mandatory " sticker or tag except the one from the gas fitter.
Anyway, if you are concerned, checking the balance is an easy task.
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/gemare/gemare_004.cfm
Like all things with filters, you do need to do a bit of preventative maintenance over the course of the year.
When you are finished, put your own sticker on it :)

Thanks for the reply. I agree checking the balance isn't that difficult, but the owner's manual had a pretty long procedure for actually balancing the system. It also stated that not balancing the system can void the warranty. I just wanted to confirm with someone in the industry whether a balanced sticker was necessary for a professional installation as our inspector implied.

[threeflags]

So I popped into the York dealer section to get more info (technical guide) on their A/c units.

How to do tell the tonnage on these machines? From perusing the doc, I gather it's not as simply as 1 outdoor unit and an "A" coil. Seems to me that one can match up a whole bunch of combinations to make the system fit into the customer's home.

I just like to figure out for me, what size I'm getting. I have limited space to place the outdoor unit. The area I'm thinking of is a notched corner near the dryer vent. So definitely only 2 sides will be truly opened up. The guide says 10" clearance ... best I can get for the 2 closed side is 4". Maybe I can make another side 10" but that would place the unit directly behind the dryer vent.

Deciding on either the YCJF or TCGF (2.5 TON). For example is the YCJF30S41S1 a 2.5 ton machine?
What are your thoughts?
Thanks.

[Pete_Coach]

So I popped into the York dealer section to get more info (technical guide) on their A/c units.

How to do tell the tonnage on these machines? From perusing the doc, I gather it's not as simply as 1 outdoor unit and an "A" coil. Seems to me that one can match up a whole bunch of combinations to make the system fit into the customer's home.

I just like to figure out for me, what size I'm getting. I have limited space to place the outdoor unit. The area I'm thinking of is a notched corner near the dryer vent. So definitely only 2 sides will be truly opened up. The guide says 10" clearance ... best I can get for the 2 closed side is 4". Maybe I can make another side 10" but that would place the unit directly behind the dryer vent.

Deciding on either the YCJF or TCGF (2.5 TON). For example is the YCJF30S41S1 a 2.5 ton machine?
What are your thoughts?
Thanks.
I am no expert but a quick google showed the YCJF30S41S1 being a 2.5 ton unit.
Also, I believe the tonnage is a given to what you buy (2, 2.5, 3, 3.5 etc) but you can add different coils to provide you with different SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio) ratings.

[janaka]

I am no expert but a quick google showed the YCJF30S41S1 being a 2.5 ton unit.
Also, I believe the tonnage is a given to what you buy (2, 2.5, 3, 3.5 etc) but you can add different coils to provide you with different SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio) ratings.

the 30 in the model is the BTU cooling capacity (x1000) so 30,000btu cooling capacity. 12,000BTU cooling capacity = 1 ton. so 30,000 is 2.5tons
coils are a whole separate thing. some companies oversize coils to increase SEER, some do it to increase dehumidification etc. In order to qualify for rebates there needs to be an ARI # for the compressor and A Coil combination.

I hope this clears things up a little. The YCJF and TCGF are the same seer ratings, same sound ratings *unless you get a fresh off the line TCGF then it will be louder since they took some features away, primarily the sound blanket off the compressor*. Differences are steel case, swept fan blades and now sound blanket on the compressor. If sound doesn't matter nor additional protection the TCGF is the way to go. If you have kids that will be anywhere near the appliance I always recommend the YCJF for the added protection.

[threeflags]

the 30 in the model is the BTU cooling capacity (x1000) so 30,000btu cooling capacity. 12,000BTU cooling capacity = 1 ton. so 30,000 is 2.5tons
coils are a whole separate thing. some companies oversize coils to increase SEER, some do it to increase dehumidification etc. In order to qualify for rebates there needs to be an ARI # for the compressor and A Coil combination.

I hope this clears things up a little. The YCJF and TCGF are the same seer ratings, same sound ratings *unless you get a fresh off the line TCGF then it will be louder since they took some features away, primarily the sound blanket off the compressor*. Differences are steel case, swept fan blades and now sound blanket on the compressor. If sound doesn't matter nor additional protection the TCGF is the way to go. If you have kids that will be anywhere near the appliance I always recommend the YCJF for the added protection.


Much thanks Pete_coach and Janaka. That clears up some points. Sometimes when you are so focused reading the technical guide you forget to just use Google.

Janaka, can you look at my recent post in the thread - price of A/C's to make a comment? Thanks.

[nighthawk26]

Much thanks Pete_coach and Janaka. That clears up some points. Sometimes when you are so focused reading the technical guide you forget to just use Google.

Janaka, can you look at my recent post in the thread - price of A/C's to make a comment? Thanks.

Or you could talk to a professional and leave the techincal guide to the technician?! Surely if you trust the response of some random person on a website you should trust the statements from a professional?

[basic]

Anyone know of a good company for furnace cleaning in the GTA?

[Pete_Coach]

Or you could talk to a professional and leave the techincal guide to the technician?! Surely if you trust the response of some random person on a website you should trust the statements from a professional?
Right you are.
There were earlier posts on information overload and I quite agree with them. As a HVAC layman (albiet with signigficant technical experience), I was completely overwhelmed with the amount of data. I was also overwhelmed with the amount of "horror" stories regarding HVAC equipment and installation.
In the end, it was evident that the high end of all the manufacturers were so close there was almost no difference between brands (as it was with the middle and low ends of each brand). It also became clear that what I needed was someone who does a good job, stands behind their product and, will be there tomorrow.
I did appreciate the feedback, comments and, insight from folks like Nighthawk26 and Limoges_Shopper (on a random website forum by the way LOL) and even though they had their own brands to push, they were very impartial in their advice.
My advice and opinion? Select a price range, select a good retailer/installer and go with them. Brand? It really is not that big a deal.

[threeflags]

Or you could talk to a professional and leave the techincal guide to the technician?! ...

Couldn't agree more but the technical doc does have some gems in it for the lay person. Like the size deminsion of the outdoor unit and the note about clearance around it.

Much thanks to everyone who made comments to my questions.

[nighthawk26]

Couldn't agree more but the technical doc does have some gems in it for the lay person. Like the size deminsion of the outdoor unit and the note about clearance around it.

Much thanks to everyone who made comments to my questions.

All things any competent sales rep should be able to tell you. If they can't... maybe some area for concern because thats all pretty basic.

I get customers all the time that want to shoehorn an AC somewhere it shouldn't go due to clearance issues but "none of the other sales people told me that" funny enough leads them to want to believe them rather than me. Yup, I have an alterior motive for telling you you're efficiency will drop and you'll have longterm issues with the unit without the proper clearance.

Bottom line, people will hear what they want to hear, regardless if it's accurate or not.

[is350ty]

I have a 12 year old Trane Heat pump that has been intermittently tripping the breaker, and using my electric furnace which has been raising my electric bill. When I go and reset it, the next day it is tripped again. We are not in a very cold temperature right now (around 10 degrees Celcius). I have told a HVAC technician to come and diagnose the problem, but they were not able to solve it. All they did was charge me $1000 with labour and parts from replacing my WORKING thermostat, and a bunch of sensors that had nothing wrong with them previously.

The day after they left, the breaker tripped again. I complainted to their owner about the outrageous bill without solving the problem, and that I didnt want to spend any more money if they did not know what was wrong with it. However, they are refusing to return to my house because they realize that I do not want to spend any more money. (Even though they have a 30 day guarantee on their work).

I'm stuck right now. Anyone know what could be the problem?

[THE_click]

I have a 12 year old Trane Heat pump that has been intermittently tripping the breaker, and using my electric furnace which has been raising my electric bill. When I go and reset it, the next day it is tripped again. We are not in a very cold temperature right now (around 10 degrees Celcius). I have told a HVAC technician to come and diagnose the problem, but they were not able to solve it. All they did was charge me $1000 with labour and parts from replacing my WORKING thermostat, and a bunch of sensors that had nothing wrong with them previously.

The day after they left, the breaker tripped again. I complainted to their owner about the outrageous bill without solving the problem, and that I didnt want to spend any more money if they did not know what was wrong with it. However, they are refusing to return to my house because they realize that I do not want to spend any more money. (Even though they have a 30 day guarantee on their work).

I'm stuck right now. Anyone know what could be the problem?

Whoa! yeah.. i have no idea, that sucks man. I'm pretty sure electric furnaces have these things called sequencers.. this is all they have.. apparently! :lol:

You should post the details of the bill they left you.. what was replaced? how much was the labour cost?
furnace repairs over $1000.00 tend to be fairly large repairs.. not a couple of switches and a new thermostat! :razz:

[is350ty]

Whoa! yeah.. i have no idea, that sucks man. I'm pretty sure electric furnaces have these things called sequencers.. this is all they have.. apparently! :lol:

You should post the details of the bill they left you.. what was replaced? how much was the labour cost?
furnace repairs over $1000.00 tend to be fairly large repairs.. not a couple of switches and a new thermostat! :razz:

This is the bill they charged me:

New Trane thermostat $350
New exterior temperature sensor $69
Labour $95 x 5
Total = $1001.28 (with HST)

The HVAC tech was running around the house for 5 hours blaming the original wiring (which was fine for over 10 years --yet he was not able to fix the problem). After he found out that those parts were not the ones causing the problem, I asked him to remove them since they were not needed. He REFUSED to remove it!!! I was left with a $1000 bill and still a broken heat pump.

I called around to other HVAC companies and they suggested that I contacted Trane and complain about this HVAC company about not fulfilling their 30 day guarantee. What should I do?

[nighthawk26]

This is the bill they charged me:

New Trane thermostat $350
New exterior temperature sensor $69
Labour $95 x 5
Total = $1001.28 (with HST)

The HVAC tech was running around the house for 5 hours blaming the original wiring (which was fine for over 10 years --yet he was not able to fix the problem). After he found out that those parts were not the ones causing the problem, I asked him to remove them since they were not needed. He REFUSED to remove it!!! I was left with a $1000 bill and still a broken heat pump.

I called around to other HVAC companies and they suggested that I contacted Trane and complain about this HVAC company about not fulfilling their 30 day guarantee. What should I do?

Does the new thermostat work? I'd imagine it does. What is the 30 day guarantee for exactly?

When you take your car to a mechanic with problem "X" and they start to fix it, they start with what should be the most obvious and go to the next, then the next, then the next. Typically they find the problem, you pay the bill for however long it took and you move on. In this case, your product is outside warranty, they are trying multiple things, yet can't solve the problem. Does that mean they didn't spend the time there looking?

If anything, your beef should possibly be that the tech was not competant, and thats not your fault. It's really easy for other dealers to tell you to cry wolf to Trane, but if they are so sure it's that cut and dry and you have a legit complaint (the tech just didn't know what he was doing), then why didn' tthey offer to send someone out?

As a sidenote, with the CRAZY rising costs of hydro, and only to get much worse over the next year, I can't imagine why you wouldn't just replace the system in the first place. $1000 repaid on a 12+ yr old system is nuts when you factor the competetiveness of the market today and the grants and rebates that are still around.

Can you not get gas where you are?

[is350ty]

Does the new thermostat work? I'd imagine it does. What is the 30 day guarantee for exactly?

When you take your car to a mechanic with problem "X" and they start to fix it, they start with what should be the most obvious and go to the next, then the next, then the next. Typically they find the problem, you pay the bill for however long it took and you move on. In this case, your product is outside warranty, they are trying multiple things, yet can't solve the problem. Does that mean they didn't spend the time there looking?

If anything, your beef should possibly be that the tech was not competant, and thats not your fault. It's really easy for other dealers to tell you to cry wolf to Trane, but if they are so sure it's that cut and dry and you have a legit complaint (the tech just didn't know what he was doing), then why didn' tthey offer to send someone out?

As a sidenote, with the CRAZY rising costs of hydro, and only to get much worse over the next year, I can't imagine why you wouldn't just replace the system in the first place. $1000 repaid on a 12+ yr old system is nuts when you factor the competetiveness of the market today and the grants and rebates that are still around.

Can you not get gas where you are?

Thanks for your reply. I understand the car mechanic analogy. However, I think once the tech isolated the thermostat and was not the problem, there should be no need to replace it for a new one.

The tech was not competent, and he did screw up the wiring. I called an HVAC individual and he fixed the problem today. Apparently the first tech messed up the wiring by having the thermostat turn both the heat pump and emergency heat (furnace) on simultaneously, causing excessive amp draw and flipping the breaker.

Obviosuly I had no idea the original cost was going to be $1000+. We do have gas, but the efficiency of a heat pump is greater than a gas furnace (as i was told). A new Trane system costs $11000 with labour, and only a grant of $500. I dont see a need to replace the system when nothing is really wrong with it, am I right?

[is350ty]

Oh, and regarding the 30-day guarantee. Many of the local HVAC companies (including this one) guarantees their work for 30 days. Meaning, if the problem was fixed when he left, they guarantee it for 30 days.

But he didnt really fix it, and made matter worse apparently.

[nighthawk26]

Oh, and regarding the 30-day guarantee. Many of the local HVAC companies (including this one) guarantees their work for 30 days. Meaning, if the problem was fixed when he left, they guarantee it for 30 days.

But he didnt really fix it, and made matter worse apparently.

Oh no I hear you on that... they should have removed the stat, refunded the money fo rthe stat, but it's hard when labour is labour and work is done.

End of the day though... are things all working fine now?

[is350ty]

Oh no I hear you on that... they should have removed the stat, refunded the money fo rthe stat, but it's hard when labour is labour and work is done.

End of the day though... are things all working fine now?

Yes it is finally working.

It is a shame that the first HVAC company was so unreasonable. They were my primary HVAC tech for my business before this whole ordeal, but I guess I will be looking for someone else now...

[kante]

Thanks for the feedback janaka,

I'm also trying to determine whether there are furnaces that allow for the return air duct to be placed at the rear (of the furnace)? I'm not sure if there are websites that would help with this. I've done a few searches but haven't found anything as yet.

[janaka]

why do you want the cold air coming from the rear of the furnace?

[THE_click]

Thanks for the feedback janaka,

I'm also trying to determine whether there are furnaces that allow for the return air duct to be placed at the rear (of the furnace)? I'm not sure if there are websites that would help with this. I've done a few searches but haven't found anything as yet.

You might be talking about water systems.

Here's a job I helped clean a couple of yrs ago.

2 furnaces, both were located on the basement level in a large staircase cavity..this thing went up 3 floors from ground level. Every cold air return in the house was connected to this huge cavity beneath the staircase. It didn't matter which floor you were on.. 1st, 2nd, 3rd or the fourth, they all connected to this extremely massive!! Cold Air Return Main. There was enough space in there to stand up, walk around.. or climb!

Anyways, back to the furnaces.. they were sitting in identical spots.. on each corner of the rear walls of the staircase.

I know, lol..pics would have been nice . The furnaces were directly pressed against the wall on the other side of the rear staircase walls. That would make the staircase cavity your Cold Air Main. Both furnaces had large 3ft x 3ft square cutouts, at what looks like the back or the side of them.

This was one of the craziest ventilation systems i have ever seen!

Is that what your thinking of?

If not, :facepalm:

:lol:

[Lumber-jack]

My HVAC estimate is willing to throw in an Aprilaire 2410 central electronic air cleaner for $113 installed to create more work for their intallers as it is slow this year - Apparently it is work about $300 regular. I am just wondering if there is any good or bad comments about this filter compared to the 3m type. I think the replacement filters are worth about $60.

http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?znfAction=ProductDetails&category=7&item=2200

[Lumber-jack]

I was told by the sales person that although Colman is made by York it is not the exact same - is this true?

thanks

[janaka]

My HVAC estimate is willing to throw in an Aprilaire 2410 central electronic air cleaner for $113 installed to create more work for their intallers as it is slow this year - Apparently it is work about $300 regular. I am just wondering if there is any good or bad comments about this filter compared to the 3m type. I think the replacement filters are worth about $60.

http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?znfAction=ProductDetails&category=7&item=2200

I have some similar to that in my home (april aire) and its a great filter. $113 is a good deal; I'd do that in a heartbeat.

[janaka]

I was told by the sales person that although Colman is made by York it is not the exact same - is this true?

thanks
if it was the exact same why would the coleman be cheaper?

[Lumber-jack]

I have had about 6 estimates for a furnace in Ottawa and every company except the last one said I needed a condesate pump as they could not use the existing hole in the floor (not the drain) to remove the exxess water and they must bring in up to code. I really liked the last company and questioned about the condesate pump and they said that they were told that they don't have use one but if I wanted one they would put one in for an extra charge. Can anyone tell me what is proper for code?

thanks

[THE_click]

I have had about 6 estimates for a furnace in Ottawa and every company except the last one said I needed a condesate pump as they could not use the existing hole in the floor (not the drain) to remove the exxess water and they must bring in up to code. I really liked the last company and questioned about the condesate pump and they said that they were told that they don't have use one but if I wanted one they would put one in for an extra charge. Can anyone tell me what is proper for code?

thanks

Humidifiers, HRV's, A/C's or High Eff-Furnaces all require drainage.

I called the Goverment of Canada in regards to this approx a year ago. They told me, most newer homes have a connection from that hole in the floor to the main drain. In most older properties this is not the case.. you would probably have a good chance of water coming back through the hole, and flooding your basement.

If you have alot of appliances on your HVAC system that require drainage, I would recommend a condensate pump.

I'm not 100% sure about the "code"

[abhi]

Have weatherproofed my house with strips on doors and windows but still find some rooms colder than the rest...actually 1 is downstairs and another is bedroom upstairs (farthest from the furnace)...

any quick fixes??? have tried balancing dampers but honestly cant makeout much difference:-0

thanks

[janaka]

I have had about 6 estimates for a furnace in Ottawa and every company except the last one said I needed a condesate pump as they could not use the existing hole in the floor (not the drain) to remove the exxess water and they must bring in up to code. I really liked the last company and questioned about the condesate pump and they said that they were told that they don't have use one but if I wanted one they would put one in for an extra charge. Can anyone tell me what is proper for code?

thanks

you cannot drain a high efficiency furnace to a sump pump or a random hole in the floor. get the pump. tell them you want it for free.
something kind of makes you go hmmm if he didn't know this though...

[kante]

why do you want the cold air coming from the rear of the furnace?


Because of space limitations and the location of the ducts, this would be a much easier solution.

[kante]

You might be talking about water systems.

Here's a job I helped clean a couple of yrs ago.

2 furnaces, both were located on the basement level in a large staircase cavity..this thing went up 3 floors from ground level. Every cold air return in the house was connected to this huge cavity beneath the staircase. It didn't matter which floor you were on.. 1st, 2nd, 3rd or the fourth, they all connected to this extremely massive!! Cold Air Return Main. There was enough space in there to stand up, walk around.. or climb!

Anyways, back to the furnaces.. they were sitting in identical spots.. on each corner of the rear walls of the staircase.

I know, lol..pics would have been nice . The furnaces were directly pressed against the wall on the other side of the rear staircase walls. That would make the staircase cavity your Cold Air Main. Both furnaces had large 3ft x 3ft square cutouts, at what looks like the back or the side of them.

This was one of the craziest ventilation systems i have ever seen!

Is that what your thinking of?

If not, :facepalm:

:lol:


This does sound a bit crazy.. no, this doesn't apply to my inquiry.

[38racing]

you cannot drain a high efficiency furnace to a sump pump or a random hole in the floor. get the pump. tell them you want it for free.
something kind of makes you go hmmm if he didn't know this though...

Why can't you drain it to a sump pump? I just signed a contract that says 'condensate to to drained to existing' and my air conditioner drains to my sump hole. Although I have a pump mounted and operational it actually drains by gravity to the rear of my rural property but the sales guy did not know that. With a pump where would I pump it to , my septic?

[janaka]

Why can't you drain it to a sump pump? I just signed a contract that says 'condensate to to drained to existing' and my air conditioner drains to my sump hole. Although I have a pump mounted and operational it actually drains by gravity to the rear of my rural property but the sales guy did not know that. With a pump where would I pump it to , my septic?

ac can drain to the sump pump although not recommended IMO.

Products of combustion are acidic and putting acidic water into the sump pump isn't allowed, you CAN get a neutralizer kit which all the condensate must go through before draining to the sump pump, but no installer actually does this.
usually condensate pumps go to main drain, laundery tub, etc.

[janaka]

Because of space limitations and the location of the ducts, this would be a much easier solution.

then just get them to put the CAR under the furnace run the CAR behind and then under and have it bottom fed. Problem solved as 99% of furnaces can be run with the CAR being ducting under it. I'm shocked no company told you this, unless you have no head room which we wouldn't know because you didn't supply us with a picture to be able to help.

[38racing]

ac can drain to the sump pump although not recommended IMO.

Products of combustion are acidic and putting acidic water into the sump pump isn't allowed, you CAN get a neutralizer kit which all the condensate must go through before draining to the sump pump, but no installer actually does this.
usually condensate pumps go to main drain, laundery tub, etc.

Being acidic I don't think I want that going to my concrete septic tank and I don't have any trapped access in the basement to it anyway.

[Gixxer]

I'm looking for a filter replacement for my healthy climate box. The filter size is 16x25x5 (sku: FC100A1029). My local shop selling for $65.

Is there any online places you would recommend in Canada? I don't know which one is reputable.

Thanks in advance.

[kante]

then just get them to put the CAR under the furnace run the CAR behind and then under and have it bottom fed. Problem solved as 99% of furnaces can be run with the CAR being ducting under it. I'm shocked no company told you this, unless you have no head room which we wouldn't know because you didn't supply us with a picture to be able to help.


Yes.. this is a possibility but again not the easiest solution.
Thanks for your input; it seems as if a furnace (with CAR at the rear) doesn't exist.

[nighthawk26]

Being acidic I don't think I want that going to my concrete septic tank and I don't have any trapped access in the basement to it anyway.

Wow, even worse. I even note a concern for customres with older concrete sinks. A concrete sump though.. shame on the contractor that missed that!

[nighthawk26]

I'm looking for a filter replacement for my healthy climate box. The filter size is 16x25x5 (sku: FC100A1029). My local shop selling for $65.

Is there any online places you would recommend in Canada? I don't know which one is reputable.

Thanks in advance.

Yeah, save yourself a lot of time, and headache, and shipping cost, and buy it from your local dealer. Thats a pretty standard price. Even a 4" standard honeywell is $40 bucks at home depot. The premium is not that great that would justify ny time or additional effort on your part. Just my .02.

[threeflags]

What are you thoughts on these questions:


1. Should I let the furnace people reuse the exist venting for the incoming air to the new furnace? Or should I demand new piping?

2. Is there any gadget I can get that will let me know when to change out my furnace filter? I don't what to crack my heat exchanger due to improper air flow. I was thinking of maybe inserting one of those wind speed meters that the weather people uses just behind the filter before the motor. Then I can monitor the wind speed and if it drops X% then I can assume its getting clogged with dirt/dust.

In case you need this extra bit of information ... going to get a York modulating furnace YP9C.

3. The "J" channel that feeds the return air to the furnace blower, should I ask the installers to move the column over 5" to allow greater room to install the air cleaner? Or should I let them cut this "J" channel.


Thanks.

[Lumber-jack]

Can anyone tell me where I would find the information in the code that I must use a condesate pump for a new furnace installation and cannot use the hole in the floor going into the ground (not the floor drain). Any help would be much appreciated.

thanks
mikE

[janaka]

What are you thoughts on these questions:


1. Should I let the furnace people reuse the exist venting for the incoming air to the new furnace? Or should I demand new piping?

2. Is there any gadget I can get that will let me know when to change out my furnace filter? I don't what to crack my heat exchanger due to improper air flow. I was thinking of maybe inserting one of those wind speed meters that the weather people uses just behind the filter before the motor. Then I can monitor the wind speed and if it drops X% then I can assume its getting clogged with dirt/dust.

In case you need this extra bit of information ... going to get a York modulating furnace YP9C.

3. The "J" channel that feeds the return air to the furnace blower, should I ask the installers to move the column over 5" to allow greater room to install the air cleaner? Or should I let them cut this "J" channel.


Thanks.

1) New piping.
2)Most thermostats have reminders to check/change your filters. IMO nothing more than that is needed.
3)best practice is to offset the cold air return to allow the full rounded boot then the air cleaner. It is common however to cut the "throat" of the boot to fit the air cleaner.

[janaka]

Can anyone tell me where I would find the information in the code that I must use a condesate pump for a new furnace installation and cannot use the hole in the floor going into the ground (not the floor drain). Any help would be much appreciated.

thanks
mikE
do you need this becuase you don't believe us or to prove to the installer who you want to deal with that its needed?

[Munchos]

What are you thoughts on these questions:


1. Should I let the furnace people reuse the exist venting for the incoming air to the new furnace? Or should I demand new piping?

2. Is there any gadget I can get that will let me know when to change out my furnace filter? I don't what to crack my heat exchanger due to improper air flow. I was thinking of maybe inserting one of those wind speed meters that the weather people uses just behind the filter before the motor. Then I can monitor the wind speed and if it drops X% then I can assume its getting clogged with dirt/dust.

In case you need this extra bit of information ... going to get a York modulating furnace YP9C.

3. The "J" channel that feeds the return air to the furnace blower, should I ask the installers to move the column over 5" to allow greater room to install the air cleaner? Or should I let them cut this "J" channel.


Thanks.

1. If you can get a discount for them using the existing venting, why not? It's only a fresh air intake (at least they should use it as that) and it will just look odd. But how many people actually care what their furnace room looks like? On redflagdeals everyone does, but in the real world, not a whole lot do.
2. Get a 4 inch media filter installed and change every 6 months or once a year, depending on your fan setting is on or auto. Airflow is more than just a filter, so, IMO, don't even bother with any sort of gadgets.
3. What Janaka stated.

[bririp]

What are you thoughts on these questions:


1. Should I let the furnace people reuse the exist venting for the incoming air to the new furnace? Or should I demand new piping?

2. Is there any gadget I can get that will let me know when to change out my furnace filter? I don't what to crack my heat exchanger due to improper air flow. I was thinking of maybe inserting one of those wind speed meters that the weather people uses just behind the filter before the motor. Then I can monitor the wind speed and if it drops X% then I can assume its getting clogged with dirt/dust.

In case you need this extra bit of information ... going to get a York modulating furnace YP9C.

3. The "J" channel that feeds the return air to the furnace blower, should I ask the installers to move the column over 5" to allow greater room to install the air cleaner? Or should I let them cut this "J" channel.


Thanks.

Is the existing venting black abs or white pvc 636?

If it is black abs, it cannot be used for anything, not even the intake.

If it is 636, there is no harm in using it again.

[Lumber-jack]

Can anyone tell me where I would find the information in the code that I must use a condesate pump for a new furnace installation and cannot use the hole in the floor going into the ground (not the floor drain). Any help would be much appreciated.

thanks
mikE


I found the information thanks:

7.4.2.1. Connections to Sanitary Drainage Systems
(1) Every fixture shall be directly connected to a sanitary drainage system, except that,
(a) drinking fountains may be,
(i) indirectly connected to a sanitary drainage system, or
(ii) connected to a storm drainage system provided that where the system is subject to backflow, a check valve is installed in the fountain waste pipe,
(b) laundry plumbing appliances may be indirectly connected to a sanitary drainage system,
(c) fixtures or plumbing appliances, other than floor drains, except as provided in Sentence 7.1.4.2.(2), that discharge only clear water waste may be connected to a storm drainage system,
(d) the following devices shall be indirectly connected to a drainage system:
(i) a device for the display, storage, preparation or processing of food or drink,
(ii) a sterilizer,
(iii) a device that uses water as a cooling or heating medium,
(iv) a water operated device,
(v) a water treatment device,
(vi) a drain or overflow from a water system or a heating system, or
(vii) a drain line from a HVAC system or equipment, and
(e) reserved,
(f) reserved,
(g) reserved,
(h) floor drains within walk-in coolers shall be connected to a sanitary drainage system,
(i) indirectly with an air break, or
(ii) directly with a backwater valve installed on the drainage system before connection to the sanitary building drain.

[38racing]

so (d) the following devices shall be indirectly connected to a drainage system:
...........or
(vii) a drain line from a HVAC system or equipment, and

I assume 'indirectly' is defined some where and 'drainage system' is defined somewhere.

I found also:
.2.1.1.**Exposure of Materials
(1)**Where unusual conditions exist such as excessively corrosive soil or water, only materials suited for use in such locations shall be used.
(2)**Materials and equipment used in a drainage system where excessively corrosive wastes are present shall be suitable for the purpose.
found it
Drainage system means an assembly of pipes, fittings, fixtures and appurtenances on a property that is used to convey sewage and clear water waste to a main sewer or a private sewage disposal system, and includes a private sewer, but does not include subsoil drainage piping.

is sump pump a drainage system though?

9.14.5.2.**Sump Pits
(1)**Where gravity drainage is not practical, a covered sump with an automatic pump shall be installed to discharge the water into a sewer, drainage ditch or dry well.

[md7899]

you cannot drain a high efficiency furnace to a sump pump or a random hole in the floor. get the pump. tell them you want it for free.
something kind of makes you go hmmm if he didn't know this though...

Why would they give him a free pump?? Some quotes go up to $200 for one.........

[janaka]

Why would they give him a free pump?? Some quotes go up to $200 for one.........

Because the cost on one is like $30 from a supplier and who WOULDN'T give (even it did cost) $200 to get a deal?!
Its also not an unrealistic expectation from the customer to say to the salesman, include that and I'll sign. Any salesman who doesn't do that either A) has too much money B) doesn't have the install capacity to keep up C) just doesn't care.

Ask any HVAC sales guy if they would not give one away to close a deal. I bet that you would be hard pressed to find ONE.

[Jamie_Canuck]

If I'm putting a mid-effieciency furnace in a rental property we own, is Gibson as good as any of the 'cheap' brands? I can get one (54,000 btu's) from one of our suppliers for about $500 bucks, the one it will replace is about 20 years old, it's in a townhouse so we won't need to deal woith the condo board to core through the foundation to put in a higher effieiency one in...

[janaka]

If I'm putting a mid-effieciency furnace in a rental property we own, is Gibson as good as any of the 'cheap' brands? I can get one (54,000 btu's) from one of our suppliers for about $500 bucks, the one it will replace is about 20 years old, it's in a townhouse so we won't need to deal woith the condo board to core through the foundation to put in a higher effieiency one in...

gibson is about as cheap as they get. nothing 'wrong' with it, nothing great about it either. down side is you won't get warranty since you are installing it yourself, but i'm sure you know that.

[Jamie_Canuck]

gibson is about as cheap as they get. nothing 'wrong' with it, nothing great about it either. down side is you won't get warranty since you are installing it yourself, but i'm sure you know that.

If it breaks down, I'll just put another one in... I kid, of course... :)

[gerrythegreat]

I have a york Yp9c furnace and it oftens goes crazy :confused:. What I mean by that, is that it goes 100 miles an hour and won't stop. I have had it checked by the installer and he told me it is normal that it sometimes goes that fast but when it does so it is very noisy and unpleasant. Any ideas?


thank you

[janaka]

I have a york Yp9c furnace and it oftens goes crazy :confused:. What I mean by that, is that it goes 100 miles an hour and won't stop. I have had it checked by the installer and he told me it is normal that it sometimes goes that fast but when it does so it is very noisy and unpleasant. Any ideas?


thank you

with that little information we can't help you. care to elaborate and give us all the details? size of furnace etc etc etc without any details there's nothing for us to speculate at the cause.

[cividan]

Hi, I have an old York heat pump combo electric heat system and I want to replace the old mercury based thermostat by a new electronic one but the wire label on thermostat do not match what is said in the installation manual so I have some questions as if it will work or not and would not want to spend money on something that will not work...

here is the picture of the wiring on my current thermostat:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/100/img0188p50.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/img0188p50.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

but the letter do not match the letter listed in the manual of the thermostat I want (aube/honeywell TH146-P-2H1C) :

The manual from it is taken from this page (link at the bottom) or the 2nd link is a direct link to the manual in pdf

http://www.aubetech.com/products/produitsDetails.php?noLangue=2&noProduit=159&

direct link to the manual:

http://www.aubetech.com/manuel/2/TH146-P-2H1C.pdf

if you browse to page 4 of that pdf you see the letter and what wire they represent but I dont have all these letter and some I have are not listed on that diagram. My system is a 2h1c heat pump combo and i'm pretty sure I dont have the plenum and outdoor sensor since I dont have any display on the old thermostat but the other wire that do not match makes me worry if it will work or not.

If anyone can help I would really appreciate it.

What I want is a 7 day programmable thermostat for my system and the brand don't really matter I used this one as the manual for it is easy to get and see if it works or not.

[killuminati]

Hi guys,

Hopefully you can help me.

I am renting in an old "student" house. The heater pumps out super hot dry air, and my room gets it the worst.

I desperately need a quiet humidifier for my room. What am I supposed to get. Warm or cool mist, ultrasonic???

Pretty confused on all the options.

[wrightw]

Hi,

my question is. I am getting a Lennox SLP98V modulating furnace and need to know if the Honeywell RTH8500 TSTAT is intelligent enough to work with this furnace? Or do I have to get a Lennox branded TSTAT to receive all the benefits of the SLP98V.

a couple of items worth noting that I do not know much about in the install and owners manual I came across these points on the TSTAT.

1. Precise comfort control keeps temperature within 1°F of the level you set? (I believe the SLP98V can run between 30-100% in 10% stages)

2. I know the TSTA can have 2 heat and 2 cool stages max. (is this an indicater that it will work with the SLP98V?)

any help is greatly appreciated.

thanks

[Dr.Know]

Hello All,

First off, what a great thread! I've been reading through it for quite some time and have found answers to various questions. However, there is one question I have not been able to find an answer to:

I've got a Generalaire 1042 bypass humidifier installed on my furnace. The humidifier is installed on the cold air return trunk, and the warm air piping installed on the supply duct heading towards the back of my house (main supply trunk splits in 2 directions...front and back of my home).

Last winter (2009), I found that this humidifier would not supply an ample amount of humidity in my home. I have a hydrometer to measure the amount of humidity in my home and I found that whether I was running the humidifier or not, my relative humidity was hovering at the 30% mark. I've had the humidifier checked out, and it's currently functioning properly...unit turns on when the furnace does, water is running down the evaporator pad, the valve is open to allow heat into the evaporator pad.

The only thing I can think of (and may be irrelevant) is where the warm air pipe is installed. As mentioned above, it's not installed on the main trunk of the supply section of the furnace....it's installed on the trunk leading towards the back of my home. Does anyone think this could be the cause? Warm air is reaching the humidifier, but the humidity of my home is not changing. Any help is appreciated.

[romsan04]

Hi guys,

My humidifier stopped working. I just got it last year.... it's GenAir 1032 (or something like that) the water is not coming from the little pipe.....
It is on, I turned the shutoff valve on.... but it is still not working.....

[Dolfan-Neil]

Hi guys,

My humidifier stopped working. I just got it last year.... it's GenAir 1032 (or something like that) the water is not coming from the little pipe.....
It is on, I turned the shutoff valve on.... but it is still not working.....

Call your contractor!

[nighthawk26]

Hello All,

First off, what a great thread! I've been reading through it for quite some time and have found answers to various questions. However, there is one question I have not been able to find an answer to:

I've got a Generalaire 1042 bypass humidifier installed on my furnace. The humidifier is installed on the cold air return trunk, and the warm air piping installed on the supply duct heading towards the back of my house (main supply trunk splits in 2 directions...front and back of my home).

Last winter (2009), I found that this humidifier would not supply an ample amount of humidity in my home. I have a hydrometer to measure the amount of humidity in my home and I found that whether I was running the humidifier or not, my relative humidity was hovering at the 30% mark. I've had the humidifier checked out, and it's currently functioning properly...unit turns on when the furnace does, water is running down the evaporator pad, the valve is open to allow heat into the evaporator pad.

The only thing I can think of (and may be irrelevant) is where the warm air pipe is installed. As mentioned above, it's not installed on the main trunk of the supply section of the furnace....it's installed on the trunk leading towards the back of my home. Does anyone think this could be the cause? Warm air is reaching the humidifier, but the humidity of my home is not changing. Any help is appreciated.

What the size of the furnace and the house itself?

[Dr.Know]

What the size of the furnace and the house itself?

Not sure of the size of the furnace, but my home is 1966 Sq ft. My neighbour's home is 2046 sq ft and they have the same furnace, so I assume my furnace is sized properly for my home.

[threeflags]

Got the York YP9C furnace installed but when it cycles on (call for heat) I hear a high pitch squeaking sound. It last for about 45 seconds. The installer said that this is common but should go away after some time. Is this true? I find it hard to believe that a new piece of equipment would make this sound initially.


Googling didn't bring up any decent hits.

[Toukolou]

We are getting a "knocking" sound from our duct in the master ensuite which occurs quite regularly (every 4-5 sec) when the heat switches on, and lasts as long as the heat is pumping. It is brutal at night when we try to sleep. It also is extremely annoying in the family room, right below the bedroom, it sounds as though there someone is walking around upstairs and causing a creak. Does anyone know of a method to fix/reduce the problem? Any help anyone could offer would be greatly appreciated.

[threeflags]

Could it be a loose flap? Or something flapping in that duct line?

[Jamie_Canuck]

Does the ESA in spect every furnace/ac install... or just random ones...? We got a card in our door to give them a call for an inspection... had our furnace put in in July...

[Toukolou]

Could it be a loose flap? Or something flapping in that duct line?

I wish it were that simple. Site super and HVAC guy came and did something (I wasn't home) that seemed to do the trick for about 10 days. Now the knock is back with a vengeance.

[Jamie_Canuck]

I wish it were that simple. Site super and HVAC guy came and did something (I wasn't home) that seemed to do the trick for about 10 days. Now the knock is back with a vengeance.

is your blower fan out of balance?

[threeflags]

I wish it were that simple. Site super and HVAC guy came and did something (I wasn't home) that seemed to do the trick for about 10 days. Now the knock is back with a vengeance.

Ahhh ... I though the issue was localized to just the master suite. But now we know the sound is going to all of the vents indicating the noise is near or at the furnace. Can you then localize that sound?

Site super ... sounds like you are in a new development. Don't you have a Company service rep to call on? I would call/email them everyday and record that information for possible further action (home warranty claim).

P.S. Did you have this problem with the A/C?

[TruHP]

Looking at buying a 1,900 sqft bungalow with a flat roof. House is heated with electric hot water heaters. How can A/C be installed? We'd like to think about putting in ground source heat. How hard is it to put in a vent based system? (thus solving the AC issue?) The basement has a drop ceiling to it so would that make it easier? Thanks!

[Toukolou]

Ahhh ... I though the issue was localized to just the master suite. But now we know the sound is going to all of the vents indicating the noise is near or at the furnace. Can you then localize that sound?

Site super ... sounds like you are in a new development. Don't you have a Company service rep to call on? I would call/email them everyday and record that information for possible further action (home warranty claim).

P.S. Did you have this problem with the A/C?

It is fairly localized, the family room is directly below the master ensuite so we can hear the knocking down below. I've been told it occurs when the duct work heats up it causes rubbing against the joist, thus our knocking:confused:

[threeflags]

It is fairly localized, the family room is directly below the master ensuite so we can hear the knocking down below. I've been told it occurs when the duct work heats up it causes rubbing against the joist, thus our knocking:confused:


Just to be clear, you can also hear the knocking when you are in the family room. So the noice is coming from below. Is you basement finished? You should be able to find the source of the noise.

As for rubbing idea ... I don't see how that would explain the banging sound. If the metal expands ... then what makes it contract to make the banging sound. For me, I don't buy that explanation. A squeaking sound, I buy but not a banging sound.

[Toukolou]

Just to be clear, you can also hear the knocking when you are in the family room. So the noice is coming from below. Is you basement finished? You should be able to find the source of the noise.

As for rubbing idea ... I don't see how that would explain the banging sound. If the metal expands ... then what makes it contract to make the banging sound. For me, I don't buy that explanation. A squeaking sound, I buy but not a banging sound.

What I meant to say was the noise (it's more like a knock) is evident within the floor dividing the family room from the master ensuite. It is possible to almost pinpoint the exact area it is occurring. I'm concerned they may try and give me the run around, but it's really intolerable. I agree with your thoughts on the "contracting" as the noise occurs only when the heat kicks in, and is almost rhythmic in nature, every 4-5 sec.

[morglum82]

Anyone can reference a good contractor for a heat exchanger in Gatineau/Ottawa area?



Thanks!

[Pete_Coach]

Anyone can reference a good contractor for a heat exchanger in Gatineau/Ottawa area?

Thanks!
The heat exchanger in the gas forced air furnace? If so, you may wish to look at a whole new furnace, new technology andf new efficiencies as opposed to repairign an old unit for a lot of money.
Anyway, Limoges _Shopper from this forum is in the Ottawa area. He has help many people with his advice and ee has done some work for me. I will vouch for him and his company. PM him.
If you need help immediately, his name is Laurent and he is with Furnace Factory Direct http://www.furnacefactorydirect.ca/

[morglum82]

The heat exchanger in the gas forced air furnace? If so, you may wish to look at a whole new furnace, new technology andf new efficiencies as opposed to repairign an old unit for a lot of money.
Anyway, Limoges _Shopper from this forum is in the Ottawa area. He has help many people with his advice and ee has done some work for me. I will vouch for him and his company. PM him.
If you need help immediately, his name is Laurent and he is with Furnace Factory Direct http://www.furnacefactorydirect.ca/

Thanks Pete,
Actually we need a fan/heat exchanger to exhaust the radon in the basement.
I'll give him a call anyway.
Thanks

[Pete_Coach]

Thanks Pete,
Actually we need a fan/heat exchanger to exhaust the radon in the basement.
I'll give him a call anyway.
Thanks
Oh, you are talking about a heat recovery ventilation (HRV) unit or heat exchanger for the basement. I though the furnace exchanger had a crack. :o

[heavy's wife]

We have a quote for an Amana AMVC950704CX
furnace (96%,Variable speed DC motor) which has a lifetime waranty on heat exchanger and 10 year parts, 5 year parts and labour (DE) plus first 1 year check, programmable thermostat, Amana AC SSX14 (SEER upto 15) for $9660. They are offering $2020 in discount. So when all is calculcated taxes in the grand total is $8600 installed. This does not include any provincial or OPA rebates which I was told with an energy audit would be apprx $1450. The Trane furnace (XV-95) with the variable speed DC motor and the Trane Air Conditioner (XR15) with a SEER of 15 is about $880 dollars more($9500.00). Same 5 year warranty parts and labou, however the Trane warranty is different. The Amana warranty is better. My initial thought is the quote is high, but I have never purchased a new furnace or ac before. We will be getting other quotes as well, but need a reference point. Thanks for any help. Our home is 1956 sq ft (not including finished basement) and is 16 years old.

[lazy_prodigy]

Any good gas contractors in the North York area? I would like to change the hot water boiler from electric to natural gas. Thanks in advance! :)

[threeflags]

What I meant to say was the noise (it's more like a knock) is evident within the floor dividing the family room from the master ensuite. It is possible to almost pinpoint the exact area it is occurring. I'm concerned they may try and give me the run around, but it's really intolerable. I agree with your thoughts on the "contracting" as the noise occurs only when the heat kicks in, and is almost rhythmic in nature, every 4-5 sec.

I'm at a lost ... could it be some garbage got stuff down there? And is flapping around? Can you rig up a video to go down there?

[nighthawk26]

We have a quote for an Amana AMVC950704CX
furnace (96%,Variable speed DC motor) which has a lifetime waranty on heat exchanger and 10 year parts, 5 year parts and labour (DE) plus first 1 year check, programmable thermostat, Amana AC SSX14 (SEER upto 15) for $9660. They are offering $2020 in discount. So when all is calculcated taxes in the grand total is $8600 installed. This does not include any provincial or OPA rebates which I was told with an energy audit would be apprx $1450. The Trane furnace (XV-95) with the variable speed DC motor and the Trane Air Conditioner (XR15) with a SEER of 15 is about $880 dollars more($9500.00). Same 5 year warranty parts and labou, however the Trane warranty is different. The Amana warranty is better. My initial thought is the quote is high, but I have never purchased a new furnace or ac before. We will be getting other quotes as well, but need a reference point. Thanks for any help. Our home is 1956 sq ft (not including finished basement) and is 16 years old.

Sounds like a Diret Energy quote to me... and yeah they are always expensive. Shaddy people to say the least. I believe a class action lawsuite is coming shortly if it hasn't already due to their tagging furnaces for no reason...

[poorgirl]

Hi there, we have a cottage and would like to look into propane heating. Right now it's new construction and we do not have a furnace or duct work in yet. We originally were going with something completely different and now have decided that propane would be the best. We do have hydro but our bills using baseboard will be to much. We also keep a large construction heater going all winter to keep the basement warm.

We woudl like to learn more about propane and wondered if you knew the cost difference using electric versus propane.

Any info would be helpful.
thank you

[djjosee]

I have a small 1,150 sq/ft bungalow currently running on electric heating (thanks Dalton). Looking at putting furnace + a/c in it ... I got a quote 60,000 btu HE Gibson Furnace / 2 ton Gibson a/c which includes the duct work and gas piping.

1) Would those two unit be appropriate for my bungalow?
2) How much should this cost?

Thx

[Toukolou]

I'm at a lost ... could it be some garbage got stuff down there? And is flapping around? Can you rig up a video to go down there?

Thanks for the feedback anyways threeflags, I'm going to continue to follow-up with the builder for the time being. Worst comes to worst I'll try the video route...

[stendzme]

Can anyone recommend an HVAC guy in the hamilton area? Want to have my furnace/ac inspected. Weary of using the "brand name" guys - I have a feeling they will be trying to find some expensive fix that isn't needed!

Nothing wrong with it - works fine, but just want to see if I'm do for anything major or should be doing something proactively!

Thanks

[Munchos]

Sounds like a Diret Energy quote to me... and yeah they are always expensive. Shaddy people to say the least. I believe a class action lawsuite is coming shortly if it hasn't already due to their tagging furnaces for no reason...

Is this true? I wouldn't doubt it at all. I have seen a lot of furnaces red tagged by DE which, IMO, should never have been tagged. Granted, they were old and should of been replaces, but were in still good working order. I've heard they have a quota to fill regarding red-tagging furnaces but it could just be an old wives tale.

[janaka]

Sounds like a Diret Energy quote to me... and yeah they are always expensive. Shaddy people to say the least. I believe a class action lawsuite is coming shortly if it hasn't already due to their tagging furnaces for no reason...

this is funny because I spoke with a gentleman who worked high up in the DE world and he too rolled his eyes when I mentioned tagging furnaces so they are well aware of an issue with their practices...

[Ohboiya]

I need an air conditioning unit for our server room. Given that it's November, I haven't had any luck in finding any at Costco, Home Depot or BestBuy.

Any suggestions?

[heavy's wife]

All things being equal (price, warranty, reputable installer) what would be people buy/install?

Carrier Infinity MVB, 2-stage with Carrier infinity controller, 80,000 BTU
Carrier 2 ton (comfort series) Model 24ACC624.
10 years parts, 10 years labour

or
Trane XV95 furnace
Trane XR15 A/C 2 ton
10 years parts, 10 years labour

Is it worth it to spend the money on a humidifier and media filter (Trane or Carrier?

Which AC is biggest in size?
Which AC is quietest?

Thanks in advance

[mimikaayu]

I'm debating between these 3, which one is the best?

Amana GMH 80903
Bryant 310AAV
Lennox G50

Thanks!

[janaka]

I'm debating between these 3, which one is the best?

Amana GMH 80903
Bryant 310AAV
Lennox G50

Thanks!

none

[RhuBird]

I would like your opinions about the Maytag M1200 Plus, 95.1% AFUE, 2 stage variable speed furnace I am considering to replace a 27 year old Lennox Pulse (which is still working great..., but considering it's age, I would like to take advantage of the gov't rebates for a new high efficiency unit before they expire). The Maytag has a 12 year warranty on parts and labour with a limited lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger.Has anyone had experience with or can comment about this model and it's warranty? I've been quoted $4198., taxes in, supply and install, all materials and labour....60,000btu for a 1400 sq ft 2 storey house that we've recently renovated, air sealed, insulated and installed new windows.
I have been reviewing this thread and a few others for hours, but couldn't find Maytag information....lots of great info for some other brands though, and I will follow up with some of those as well.
Thanks!

[38racing]

I would like your opinions about the Maytag M1200 Plus, 95.1% AFUE, 2 stage variable speed furnace I am considering to replace a 27 year old Lennox Pulse (which is still working great..., but considering it's age, I would like to take advantage of the gov't rebates for a new high efficiency unit before they expire). The Maytag has a 12 year warranty on parts and labour with a limited lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger.Has anyone had experience with or can comment about this model and it's warranty? I've been quoted $4198., taxes in, supply and install, all materials and labour....60,000btu for a 1400 sq ft 2 storey house that we've recently renovated, air sealed, insulated and installed new windows.
I have been reviewing this thread and a few others for hours, but couldn't find Maytag information....lots of great info for some other brands though, and I will follow up with some of those as well.
Thanks!

comparable to what I got on a RUUD except you have better labour warranty.

[Lumber-jack]

Because the cost on one is like $30 from a supplier and who WOULDN'T give (even it did cost) $200 to get a deal?!
Its also not an unrealistic expectation from the customer to say to the salesman, include that and I'll sign. Any salesman who doesn't do that either A) has too much money B) doesn't have the install capacity to keep up C) just doesn't care.

Ask any HVAC sales guy if they would not give one away to close a deal. I bet that you would be hard pressed to find ONE.



They wanted $150 and they finally agreed to give it free

thanks!!!

[RhuBird]

comparable to what I got on a RUUD except you have better labour warranty.

Thanks!
It sure has been difficult finding people who have bought this Maytag furnace and who can give me some background ....maybe the product is soooo good :lol: that I need not have concerns....I like the warranty too (I am hoping there is nothing deceiving about it)...so that may be what sells me in the end.
I tried consumer reports, but they don't do comparibles on furnaces....so finding good information is challenging.

[janaka]

They wanted $150 and they finally agreed to give it free

thanks!!!

You're welcome.

[janaka]

Thanks!
It sure has been difficult finding people who have bought this Maytag furnace and who can give me some background ....maybe the product is soooo good :lol: that I need not have concerns....I like the warranty too (I am hoping there is nothing deceiving about it)...so that may be what sells me in the end.
I tried consumer reports, but they don't do comparibles on furnaces....so finding good information is challenging.

Did they tell you that you needed to do annual maintenence to keep the warranty in place?
Did they tell you who actually makes the Maytag furnace (I don't believe anyone to be niave enough to think Maytag makes a furnace...) IIRC its Keeprite/ICP that makes them. Google that and the word heat exchanger.

[RhuBird]

Did they tell you that you needed to do annual maintenence to keep the warranty in place?
Did they tell you who actually makes the Maytag furnace (I don't believe anyone to be niave enough to think Maytag makes a furnace...) IIRC its Keeprite/ICP that makes them. Google that and the word heat exchanger.

....I googled what you suggested and....YIKES!! However, the Maytag brochure says it is made by Nordyne, so I googled that....and I didn't see the scary heat exchanger issue, but I will investigate more. Do you know more about Nordyne that can help me?
FYI: I wasn't told I had to agree to yearly maintenance to keep the warranty, but I'll check it out. Is that true of the other companies warranties? I am trying to find out where this Maytag belongs in the Pack.....is is mid range, low????Who does it compare to?

[janaka]

....I googled what you suggested and....YIKES!! However, the Maytag brochure says it is made by Nordyne, so I googled that....and I didn't see the scary heat exchanger issue, but I will investigate more. Do you know more about Nordyne that can help me?
FYI: I wasn't told I had to agree to yearly maintenance to keep the warranty, but I'll check it out. Is that true of the other companies warranties? I am trying to find out where this Maytag belongs in the Pack.....is is mid range, low????Who does it compare to?

Its the manufacturer's that require it and as such ALL companies have to enforce it. UNLESS you get the manufacturer's extended warranties which usually negate the need for the need for maintenence (york has this for instance).

Nordyne's website shows gibson, tappan etc... those are all builders grade products at best. Another example of marketing what is perceived as a quality brand (maytag) and outsourcing a POS to make it for them.

[RhuBird]

Its the manufacturer's that require it and as such ALL companies have to enforce it. UNLESS you get the manufacturer's extended warranties which usually negate the need for the need for maintenence (york has this for instance).

Nordyne's website shows gibson, tappan etc... those are all builders grade products at best. Another example of marketing what is perceived as a quality brand (maytag) and outsourcing a POS to make it for them.

So, am I correct in assuming that Maytag, Payne & Gibson are builder grade & I am basically comparing apples to apples? And Lennox, York and Bryant are the better furnace manufacturers & I can compare them to each other as apples to apples?
Below are the models/prices/warranties I have received. Given that this is our forever home and we have been renovating/upgrading it, is there one furnace that stands out as the better value?The house is about 1400 sq ft, open concept, no A/C, so a monster furnace with bells & whistles is over kill, but I am still looking for a great furnace....better than builder grade, I hope, (unless builder grade means 'great'). One company I am looking at is affiliated with Climate Care....is that a benefit?

All are around 95% AFUE with DC motors/2 stage, except the York which is 1 stage/60,000btu, except Lennox is 70,000... taxes in/supply/install:
Climate Care York YCCTM9X080 10 yr parts/1 labour lifetime heat exchanger(can upgrade to 10 yr labour after 6 months for $505.00) 1st yr maintenance pkg. $4044.27
Climate Care Lennox G61MVP 70,000btu; 10 parts/5 labour lifetime heat exchanger(can upgrade to 10 yr labour after 6 months for $140.00) 1st yr maintenance pkg.$5626.27
Bryant 353BAV036060 93% AFUE; 10 parts/1 labour, 20yrs heat exchanger= $3955.00
Bryant 355AV042060 10 parts/1 labour, lifetime heat exchanger= $4633.00
Bryant 335AAV042060 10 parts/1 labour, lifetime heat exchanger=$5198.00....all Bryants can upgrade to 10 yr labour for $300.00.

Maytag M1200Plus, Payne PG9UAA and Gibson 95.1%AFUE Professional Grade are all priced close to $4200.00 with 10 parts/1 labour, lifetime heat exchanger....except Maytag is 12yr parts &labour.

[janaka]

So, am I correct in assuming that Maytag, Payne & Gibson are builder grade & I am basically comparing apples to apples? And Lennox, York and Bryant are the better furnace manufacturers & I can compare them to each other as apples to apples?
Below are the models/prices/warranties I have received. Given that this is our forever home and we have been renovating/upgrading it, is there one furnace that stands out as the better value?The house is about 1400 sq ft, open concept, no A/C, so a monster furnace with bells & whistles is over kill, but I am still looking for a great furnace....better than builder grade, I hope, (unless builder grade means 'great'). One company I am looking at is affiliated with Climate Care....is that a benefit?

All are around 95% AFUE with DC motors/2 stage, except the York which is 1 stage/60,000btu, except Lennox is 70,000... taxes in/supply/install:
Climate Care York YCCTM9X080 10 yr parts/1 labour lifetime heat exchanger(can upgrade to 10 yr labour after 6 months for $505.00) 1st yr maintenance pkg. $4044.27
Climate Care Lennox G61MVP 70,000btu; 10 parts/5 labour lifetime heat exchanger(can upgrade to 10 yr labour after 6 months for $140.00) 1st yr maintenance pkg.$5626.27
Bryant 353BAV036060 93% AFUE; 10 parts/1 labour, 20yrs heat exchanger= $3955.00
Bryant 355AV042060 10 parts/1 labour, lifetime heat exchanger= $4633.00
Bryant 335AAV042060 10 parts/1 labour, lifetime heat exchanger=$5198.00....all Bryants can upgrade to 10 yr labour for $300.00.

Maytag M1200Plus, Payne PG9UAA and Gibson 95.1%AFUE Professional Grade are all priced close to $4200.00 with 10 parts/1 labour, lifetime heat exchanger....except Maytag is 12yr parts &labour.

Builder grade generally means basic, cheap.

IMO if this is your "forever" house then I would certainly spend some extra money and get something very nice as you will see savings/enjoyment over the long term. If you had an expectancy of 5yrs or less then go mid-low end. Forever is a long time and a quiet reliable furnace will be peace of mind.

IMO all those prices seem to be out to lunch.

IMO the best piece of equipment there is the G61V from lennox but it should be in the $3800range + tax with 10/10 warranty so your quote at over $5k is obserd.

[RhuBird]

Builder grade generally means basic, cheap.

IMO if this is your "forever" house then I would certainly spend some extra money and get something very nice as you will see savings/enjoyment over the long term. If you had an expectancy of 5yrs or less then go mid-low end. Forever is a long time and a quiet reliable furnace will be peace of mind.

IMO all those prices seem to be out to lunch.

IMO the best piece of equipment there is the G61V from lennox but it should be in the $3800range + tax with 10/10 warranty so your quote at over $5k is obserd.

Thank you so much for your advice. You have no idea how much I appreciate it. None of it was sitting well; I feel like a sitting duck! I felt the prices were out of wack, perhaps inflated because they know I'd be getting money from an energy audit....certainly not fair if that is the case. Because there aren't many companies here who carry the same brands there must not be a lot of competition to keep prices in check. I had no idea what furnaces should cost....so thanks again for letting me know.I'll try to find another Lennox dealer for a more in line quote....even if I have to go out of this area.
I called another company today who quoted $4550 + taxes for a York TM9V, 60000btu.
Do you have a suggestion of another furnace I might look at as an option?....Perhaps favorites of yours?It would sure be great to have an unbiased recommendation.
With these inflated prices, I think I may be further ahead to wait until my 27 yr old Lennox Pulse actually stops working before getting a new one...even if the energy audit expires and I don't get the money!!:confused:

[janaka]

Thank you so much for your advice. You have no idea how much I appreciate it. None of it was sitting well; I feel like a sitting duck! I felt the prices were out of wack, perhaps inflated because they know I'd be getting money from an energy audit....certainly not fair if that is the case. Because there aren't many companies here who carry the same brands there must not be a lot of competition to keep prices in check. I had no idea what furnaces should cost....so thanks again for letting me know.I'll try to find another Lennox dealer for a more in line quote....even if I have to go out of this area.
I called another company today who quoted $4550 + taxes for a York TM9V, 60000btu.
Do you have a suggestion of another furnace I might look at as an option?....Perhaps favorites of yours?It would sure be great to have an unbiased recommendation.
With these inflated prices, I think I may be further ahead to wait until my 27 yr old Lennox Pulse actually stops working before getting a new one...even if the energy audit expires and I don't get the money!!:confused:

The problem for me is I don't know what the going price is in your area. This may be market value for whatever reason.

I'll tell you my top few furnace models in no particular order. Carrier MVB - workhorse of furnaces, tried and true performer. Lennox G71 - my mom and a few co-workers have it, super quiet, reliable, great unit. York YP9C - quiet, super efficient, good warranties. Those are the three I'd look at for my own home or personal friend. Between those three its what ever has the best offer for warranty and/or pricing/rebates.

IMO do the furnace now. Not only do you get some rebates which do offset the initial cost of the product but you will also instantly start saving on your bills. Think its probably $300 or so on hydro and could be 20-35% on gas costs. If you let it go for another two years that will be another $1000+ wasted on utilities and $1000 or so in rebates. $2000 lost for waiting two years. Don't know about you but thats a lot to give up.

Don't forget people (silly to say to this group) but prices aren't final. Negotiate with the companies. Ask for discounts or additional warranties or accessories (media air cleaners, humidifiers) in order for them to 'earn' your business. You'll be surprised what you get if you ask nicely (don't be an a$$hole).

[RhuBird]

The problem for me is I don't know what the going price is in your area. This may be market value for whatever reason.

I'll tell you my top few furnace models in no particular order. Carrier MVB - workhorse of furnaces, tried and true performer. Lennox G71 - my mom and a few co-workers have it, super quiet, reliable, great unit. York YP9C - quiet, super efficient, good warranties. Those are the three I'd look at for my own home or personal friend. Between those three its what ever has the best offer for warranty and/or pricing/rebates.

IMO do the furnace now. Not only do you get some rebates which do offset the initial cost of the product but you will also instantly start saving on your bills. Think its probably $300 or so on hydro and could be 20-35% on gas costs. If you let it go for another two years that will be another $1000+ wasted on utilities and $1000 or so in rebates. $2000 lost for waiting two years. Don't know about you but thats a lot to give up.

Don't forget people (silly to say to this group) but prices aren't final. Negotiate with the companies. Ask for discounts or additional warranties or accessories (media air cleaners, humidifiers) in order for them to 'earn' your business. You'll be surprised what you get if you ask nicely (don't be an a$$hole).

Janaka....this is fantastic!....exactly the help and information I needed. I feel armed and better informed.....THANK YOU!!!!And thank you for sharing. I'll check all of this out next week.:)

[Bambaataa]

Looking for a contractor to inspect my HVAC setup and Supply & install (or just install) a new furnace humidifier.

PM me if interested. Thanks...

[bluenote]

I live in a new house and this is the first winter (and only recently started dipping to 0 degrees C or below). The heat pump (Goodman GSZ130241AB) works normally when temperatures are ~ 1.5C +, but below, the thermostat shows 'Aux Heat' and heats the house, but the heat pump doesn't turn on at all. My limited understanding of this stuff is, in general at the point where aux heat would be necessary the heat pump should still run. Perhaps down to an even lower temperature where it would not be effiicient? My neighbour has a heat pump although a different type, and the outside unit is running.
The people that installed it are disorganized and IMO not apt to give an honest answer so I need some ammunition before I start fighting with them. Or can I get this warrantied with a more professional place??? (Or is it just that some systems could be set up this way?)

thanks!

[janaka]

Goodman heatpumps aren't great. I'm not surprised it doesn't work below 1.5*C

[retrovette]

I'm not too fond of the ugly white pvc that has to come through the wall on a high efficiency furnace, especially as mine will be about 10 feet above grade and will stick out like a sore thumb from the brick, especially the snorkel.
I've noticed some less objectionable termination kits on US web sites such as the Bayvent 200b. Another was called a concentric termination where the two end up going out the same hole with a fitting that draws the air intake from the back while the exhaust goes out the front.
Does anyone know if these are available in Canada and if so where in the Kitchener Waterloo area would I find them.
Thanks

[lazy_prodigy]

Any reputable gas contractors in the North York area? I would like to change the hot water boiler from electric to natural gas. Thanks in advance! :)

Anybody?

[WayCool]

So I've been reading all about furnaces here and am now infinitely more confused than when I started. It is a lousy time to be replacing a furnace because I'm out of a job. I've had a herd of quotes from representatives from reputable companies (A+ Better Business Bureau Member Companies) and can't for the life of me figure out what to do.

The contenders are (in no particular order):

#1

60,000 btu 95% efficient w/ dc motor, 2 stage variable speed
Keeprite C9MVX060 $3,200.00
Brynt 355AAV $3,700.00
Rheem RGM60 $3,450.00 w/ lifetime washable 1" filter (?)

All have lifetime warranty on heat exchanger and 10 years parts and labour. Yearly maintenance at $89.00 per would be required for the warranty. HST is extra as is some extra duct work ($300), a chimney liner for the hot water heater ($300)

The company giving this quote has changed ownership and the new owners also have a better business bureau accreditation but has enough past issues to cause it to lose it's A+ rating.

#2

Keeprite C9MPV 75,000 btu variable speed 2 stage high efficiency gas furnace $3,400.00 installed plus HST.
Includes free honeywell programmable thermostat and 2 years labour warranty on top of keeprite factory warranty.

#3

GMCV Goodman High Eff 70,000 btu variable speed $3,100.00 w/ all duct work included. plus HST
Chimney line $350.00
10 year parts and warranty.
Salesman is adamant that Goodman is an excellent furnace and talks so much I can't get a word in edgewise. Probably not the guy for me.
#4

American Standard single stage AUH1B060A9241A $3,275.00 plus HST
Reuse existing thermostat, installation included.
10 year parts and labour (with maintenance) and lifetime heat exchanger.

#5

Lennox G61MPV 2 stage variable speed furnace $4,495.00
10 year full parts and labour warranty.
free maintenance and inspection of existing Carrier A/C (7 years old)
4" 25' chimney liner $345.00

So, I am seriously considering the American Standard single stage as the old furnace had no issues whatsoever up until it's rather distressing demise. Monthly equal billing from Union Energy is set at $72.00 per month which runs furnace, hot water, fireplace and bbq. House is a small 60's bungalow. My subdivision agreement said that a house valued at $10,000 or more must be built on the lot.:lol:

The more expensive government rebate models are really not enough to tempt me in my present cash strapped situation. Also really liked the Lennox guy and will get a quote from him for a single stage.

Anyone have thoughts they would be willing to share?

[WayCool]

Forgot that the guy quoting the single stage American Standard also carries York. Those prices that he penciled into the brochure are:

TG9S 95.5% single stage for $2,775 plus HST
TM9X 95.5% single stage w/ high efficiency motor for $3,350 plus HST
TM9V 2 stage variable-speed for $4,175 (he has a check mark alongside this one) plus HST

Sales guy also said the American Standard are much more substantial (heavier) overall than the York and consequently quieter.

[janaka]

Sounds like you didn't have a single good salesman as you are comparing apples to oranges to pumpkins and you don't even realize it. A good salesman would have told you what to look for when comparing furances and such. But when you consider that you are 'comparing' ten different models you don't stand a chance. No wonder you don't know which way is up. Most people are confused at 3.

What is important to you in this purchase? Which salesman did you like/trust the most?
Are you after the best? cheapest (this is likely since you got quote after quote after quote)? quietest? fuel efficiency? warranty? reputation? brand?

These are the questions that you need to ask yourself, otherwise people will simply impose THEIR preferences when suggesting a furnace.

Oh and BTW, you didn't type the Lennox model # correctly as it should read G61 or G71 and currently the 6 or 7 is missing, although I'd guess its a 61 since no one quoted you on a premium product IMO. Read your post again, it is a G61 as thats is a two stage furnace.

OH and a 2nd BTW; the government rebates should NOT be the reason to get into the DC brushless motor furnace models, the annual hydro savings o HUNDRED's of dollars per year should be and more comfortable climate they will keep your home should be. The fact the government is giving you money to make the smart choice is simply a bonus for you. Also it has NOTHING to do with single stage/two stage/modulating furnaces but the blower. This further makes my point that NOT ONE salesman was good since you don't even know the basics after all of the presentations so far.

[WayCool]

Hey Janaka, thanks for taking the time to reply.

I really didn't realize that buying a furnace is like buying a car. You do your own homework, take yourself off to the dealership and the salesman writes up the order as you dictate. End of adventure. I really can't tell you why I thought otherwise.

That being said, I could find woefully little information pertaining to furnace buying. Nobody takes them out for a test drive and then writes a helpful report on the results. Hamilton Public Library has an on-line subscription to Consumer Reports which is generally a wealth of good solid advice, but even there I came up with nothing really very useful. I did see in their forums people complaining that they had paid for their subscription specifically for help in choosing a furnace and were unhappy with what little was available. I read through a number of other random internet forums and read on-line articles. Then I decided I would talk to the suppliers. How else would I know what is available if I don't get quote after quote after quote until I find the right one? How do you make an informed decision if you don't give the people who are supposed to be informed the chance to show off their knowledge? Do you think that I was wasting their time?

I want a furnace that is adequate to heat my little house and won't break down. That's it. I'm not all that bothered if I pay an extra $10.00 a month in electric between furnace A and furnace B because I was likely paying much more than than with my recently dearly departed ancient monster in the basement whose loss I mourn bitterly.

By and large, the salesmen that showed up here seemed to be mostly doing double duty, with their real training being installations not sales. One couldn't speak English all that well so I missed an awful lot of what he had to say, which might well have been brilliant but was totally lost on me. A couple couldn't shut up so I could ask a question when I had one. One was suffering a horrendous allergy attack from a pet rodent encountered unexpectedly at his previous stop. The most appealing one of the bunch was the Lennox guy from a small family run operation. His mother and father started the company and this gives me some assurance that there could conceivably be some follow through once the sale is complete - I won't be just kicked to the curb on the way to the next sale.

All the above aside, I'm really interested in the fact that I can save HUNDREDS of dollars yearly on my electric bill because this fact seems to be a freakishly well kept secret known only through mysterious internet legend. None of the flesh and blood salesmen were anything approaching knowledgeable on that point. I know this because I asked, specifically, each and every one of them. I said, in essence, "I'm not all that worried about the gas bill because it is almost laughably cheap when compared to my electric bill. Can you tell me if this furnace is going to make a difference and, if so, give me a guesstimate of how much electric, in dollars, it might save? Do I have to buy the really expensive furnace for the best electric savings? If so, will there realistically be enough electric bill savings to offset the added expense?" Not one could say anywhere even approaching the HUNDREDS of dollars I am so desperately wanting to find. Although the guy who couldn't speak English might have had some insight if only I spoke his language.

So, what I got from you was to fix the Lennox model number in my post (done) and then go forth and find the guy with the really good blower. :idea: Way Cool.

Thanks
Sheila

[Munchos]

Hey Janaka, thanks for taking the time to reply.

I really didn't realize that buying a furnace is like buying a car. You do your own homework, take yourself off to the dealership and the salesman writes up the order as you dictate. End of adventure. I really can't tell you why I thought otherwise.

That being said, I could find woefully little information pertaining to furnace buying. Nobody takes them out for a test drive and then writes a helpful report on the results. Hamilton Public Library has an on-line subscription to Consumer Reports which is generally a wealth of good solid advice, but even there I came up with nothing really very useful. I did see in their forums people complaining that they had paid for their subscription specifically for help in choosing a furnace and were unhappy with what little was available. I read through a number of other random internet forums and read on-line articles. Then I decided I would talk to the suppliers. How else would I know what is available if I don't get quote after quote after quote until I find the right one? How do you make an informed decision if you don't give the people who are supposed to be informed the chance to show off their knowledge? Do you think that I was wasting their time?

I want a furnace that is adequate to heat my little house and won't break down. That's it. I'm not all that bothered if I pay an extra $10.00 a month in electric between furnace A and furnace B because I was likely paying much more than than with my recently dearly departed ancient monster in the basement whose loss I mourn bitterly.

By and large, the salesmen that showed up here seemed to be mostly doing double duty, with their real training being installations not sales. One couldn't speak English all that well so I missed an awful lot of what he had to say, which might well have been brilliant but was totally lost on me. A couple couldn't shut up so I could ask a question when I had one. One was suffering a horrendous allergy attack from a pet rodent encountered unexpectedly at his previous stop. The most appealing one of the bunch was the Lennox guy from a small family run operation. His mother and father started the company and this gives me some assurance that there could conceivably be some follow through once the sale is complete - I won't be just kicked to the curb on the way to the next sale.

All the above aside, I'm really interested in the fact that I can save HUNDREDS of dollars yearly on my electric bill because this fact seems to be a freakishly well kept secret known only through mysterious internet legend. None of the flesh and blood salesmen were anything approaching knowledgeable on that point. I know this because I asked, specifically, each and every one of them. I said, in essence, "I'm not all that worried about the gas bill because it is almost laughably cheap when compared to my electric bill. Can you tell me if this furnace is going to make a difference and, if so, give me a guesstimate of how much electric, in dollars, it might save? Do I have to buy the really expensive furnace for the best electric savings? If so, will there realistically be enough electric bill savings to offset the added expense?" Not one could say anywhere even approaching the HUNDREDS of dollars I am so desperately wanting to find. Although the guy who couldn't speak English might have had some insight if only I spoke his language.

So, what I got from you was to fix the Lennox model number in my post (done) and then go forth and find the guy with the really good blower. :idea: Way Cool.

Thanks
Sheila

You will only save the hundreds of dollars if you ran your old furnace 24/7 all year long and then switch to a new furnace with a DC motor, and still ran the furnace fan 24/7. This is what the savings is based upon. Otherwise, if you kept your fan to auto to come on when the furnace came on, you won't be saving nearly as much. You will still save money but nothing like hundreds of dollars a year. I would still HIGHLY recommend you to get a furnace with a DC motor, and to then keep your furnace fan on all the time to circulate the air within the house. You will never notice the difference on your hydro bill. Also anybody who buys a new furnace without a DC motor is an idiot, or bought one for a rental property.

[janaka]

Hey Janaka, thanks for taking the time to reply.

I really didn't realize that buying a furnace is like buying a car. You do your own homework, take yourself off to the dealership and the salesman writes up the order as you dictate. End of adventure. I really can't tell you why I thought otherwise.

That being said, I could find woefully little information pertaining to furnace buying. Nobody takes them out for a test drive and then writes a helpful report on the results. Hamilton Public Library has an on-line subscription to Consumer Reports which is generally a wealth of good solid advice, but even there I came up with nothing really very useful. I did see in their forums people complaining that they had paid for their subscription specifically for help in choosing a furnace and were unhappy with what little was available. I read through a number of other random internet forums and read on-line articles. Then I decided I would talk to the suppliers. How else would I know what is available if I don't get quote after quote after quote until I find the right one? How do you make an informed decision if you don't give the people who are supposed to be informed the chance to show off their knowledge? Do you think that I was wasting their time?

I want a furnace that is adequate to heat my little house and won't break down. That's it. I'm not all that bothered if I pay an extra $10.00 a month in electric between furnace A and furnace B because I was likely paying much more than than with my recently dearly departed ancient monster in the basement whose loss I mourn bitterly.

By and large, the salesmen that showed up here seemed to be mostly doing double duty, with their real training being installations not sales. One couldn't speak English all that well so I missed an awful lot of what he had to say, which might well have been brilliant but was totally lost on me. A couple couldn't shut up so I could ask a question when I had one. One was suffering a horrendous allergy attack from a pet rodent encountered unexpectedly at his previous stop. The most appealing one of the bunch was the Lennox guy from a small family run operation. His mother and father started the company and this gives me some assurance that there could conceivably be some follow through once the sale is complete - I won't be just kicked to the curb on the way to the next sale.

All the above aside, I'm really interested in the fact that I can save HUNDREDS of dollars yearly on my electric bill because this fact seems to be a freakishly well kept secret known only through mysterious internet legend. None of the flesh and blood salesmen were anything approaching knowledgeable on that point. I know this because I asked, specifically, each and every one of them. I said, in essence, "I'm not all that worried about the gas bill because it is almost laughably cheap when compared to my electric bill. Can you tell me if this furnace is going to make a difference and, if so, give me a guesstimate of how much electric, in dollars, it might save? Do I have to buy the really expensive furnace for the best electric savings? If so, will there realistically be enough electric bill savings to offset the added expense?" Not one could say anywhere even approaching the HUNDREDS of dollars I am so desperately wanting to find. Although the guy who couldn't speak English might have had some insight if only I spoke his language.

So, what I got from you was to fix the Lennox model number in my post (done) and then go forth and find the guy with the really good blower. :idea: Way Cool.

Thanks
Sheila

Sheila;
I'd say based on that response you missed my point.

1)no you don't have to treat this like buying a car, but having an idea of what matters to you (and expressnig it) is pretty simple. Otherwise you will end up with quotes on 10 units with few similarities and have NO idea which one to buy. I sell 7? furnaces currently within my model lineup. I NEVER offer more than TWO to any one customer and 90% of the time together, the customer and I narrow it down to one model while we talk based on the needs of the house, their needs/wants and my personal recommendation.

2) Sounds like ALL your salesmen sucked. Period. Admitantly most were service AND sales which in the end doesn't help many people since tech's don't sell/explain as well as straight up sales people.

3) To your question of "do you think I was wasting their time? Honestly? Yes to an extent I believe you were. You had no known buying criteria (at least not unfront about it here, so I'd assume you didn't share it with them either) and didn't learn anything throughout the process to make a decision in the end. That's my opinion which you asked for, like it or lump it.

4) Best of luck with your new furnace whatever it may be.

[WayCool]

Hey Munchos, thanks for the reply and the excellent lesson on the finer points of using the furnace fan as related to electric conservation.

At the risk of being branded an idiot :o, I would like to venture a question about running the furnace fan 24/7. I have never done that as I assumed that the furnace fan used up much more electric than the traditional ceiling and floor fans that I have. I also keep an air cleaner in my bedroom that circulates the air nicely (and is delightful white noise if I'm trying to sleep while others in the house are up and about). Given that I do already have the ceiling fans in place I guess I should see some electricity savings if I continue using them as before but the furnace fan becomes more efficient as it operates in the same manner as before?


Janaka, what can I say? You're the salesman and, as far as I have been able to tell so far, you are always right.

"I want a furnace that is adequate to heat my little house and won't break down. That's it. I'm not all that bothered if I pay an extra $10.00 a month in electric between furnace A and furnace B because I was likely paying much more than than with my recently dearly departed ancient monster in the basement whose loss I mourn bitterly."

"I'm not all that worried about the gas bill because it is almost laughably cheap when compared to my electric bill. Can you tell me if this furnace is going to make a difference and, if so, give me a guesstimate of how much electric, in dollars, it might save? Do I have to buy the really expensive furnace for the best electric savings? If so, will there realistically be enough electric bill savings to offset the added expense?"


What else is there to know? I was happy with the beast in the basement. Unlike you, furnaces are not my life, so I assume that therein lies the rub. Did they really teach you at salesman school that your stupider-than-normal customer is a waste of time and you only want to sell to really smart mechanically inclined people? Or did they perhaps mention that it is your job as a salesman to inform the customer and do what it takes to make the sale (and earn your living). There is obviously a sale here to be made (remember the bitterly lamented dead-as-a-doorknob beast in the basement?). Some would call that an opportunity, not a time waster. At the end of the day, I'm not just dicking around trying to figure out if I maybe should be replacing a perfectly good operating furnace for some envisioned vast energy saving and then changing my mind after I've had some poor sap out at least twice to make presentations and answer endless moronic questions.

Like it or Lump it? Really? Sigh.

And the search goes on......

[retrovette]

Here's a question for someone who might know.
I was under the impression that a category IV furnace venting had to be 3' away from the water heater venting.
I see on new homes being built in my area they are only about 12" apart. I assume they must have passed
inspection as they are model homes so I guess I was wrong. Did that change or was I mistaken?
Then again, I saw one model home where the venting was only about 6" above grade because landscapers had come in and piled topsoil and bark chips all around the area and put a bush right in front of the vents to hide them. I think I'd be very worried when the snow starts drifting up against that house.

[janaka]

Hey Munchos, thanks for the reply and the excellent lesson on the finer points of using the furnace fan as related to electric conservation.

At the risk of being branded an idiot :o, I would like to venture a question about running the furnace fan 24/7. I have never done that as I assumed that the furnace fan used up much more electric than the traditional ceiling and floor fans that I have. I also keep an air cleaner in my bedroom that circulates the air nicely (and is delightful white noise if I'm trying to sleep while others in the house are up and about). Given that I do already have the ceiling fans in place I guess I should see some electricity savings if I continue using them as before but the furnace fan becomes more efficient as it operates in the same manner as before?


Janaka, what can I say? You're the salesman and, as far as I have been able to tell so far, you are always right.

"I want a furnace that is adequate to heat my little house and won't break down. That's it. I'm not all that bothered if I pay an extra $10.00 a month in electric between furnace A and furnace B because I was likely paying much more than than with my recently dearly departed ancient monster in the basement whose loss I mourn bitterly."

"I'm not all that worried about the gas bill because it is almost laughably cheap when compared to my electric bill. Can you tell me if this furnace is going to make a difference and, if so, give me a guesstimate of how much electric, in dollars, it might save? Do I have to buy the really expensive furnace for the best electric savings? If so, will there realistically be enough electric bill savings to offset the added expense?"


What else is there to know? I was happy with the beast in the basement. Unlike you, furnaces are not my life, so I assume that therein lies the rub. Did they really teach you at salesman school that your stupider-than-normal customer is a waste of time and you only want to sell to really smart mechanically inclined people? Or did they perhaps mention that it is your job as a salesman to inform the customer and do what it takes to make the sale (and earn your living). There is obviously a sale here to be made (remember the bitterly lamented dead-as-a-doorknob beast in the basement?). Some would call that an opportunity, not a time waster. At the end of the day, I'm not just dicking around trying to figure out if I maybe should be replacing a perfectly good operating furnace for some envisioned vast energy saving and then changing my mind after I've had some poor sap out at least twice to make presentations and answer endless moronic questions.

Like it or Lump it? Really? Sigh.

And the search goes on......


I have been taught a lot of things regarding my profession...

Or did they perhaps mention that it is your job as a salesman to inform the customer and do what it takes to make the sale (and earn your living).

With regards to the above quote... the 'salesmen' you have had clearly have not been told that their job is to inform you as none of them did based on your post. Therein lies 90% of YOUR problem.

If you had a good salesmen you would NOT have needed quotes on 10 furnaces. Usually customers who are stupider than normal as you say are simple sales. In your position I would have expected the 2nd or 3rd company at the most to have closed you on the spot and got the deal and made you happy. None of them explain how they operate to you, nor the differences between them. It clearly it seems as if all the companies you had come out were "bidding" on the business instead of trying to close the sale while at your home. Very inefficient way of doing things IMO and again not a good sales strategy most of the time.

Lastly I'm not always right as you said but I am good at my job; initially you did not provide us with any guidelines as to what you valued in a product until I asked so how can anyone tell you which product is right for you? My professional advice, buy from the company you trust the most. Buy the product with at least an ECM or DC blower regardless of it being a single stage or two stage gas valve and find something within your budget. Many companies (if not all) have financing available where you can not pay for 6 months to a year which hopefully will allow you time to find a new job so you aren't out of pocket until then. Further you will also have the government rebates back in your pocket before you have to spend all of your money.

If you dont care about gas since your bill is cheap and don't care about hydro then buy the cheapest no-name furnace out there and call it a day, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out, nice and simple plain english. :facepalm:

[WayCool]

Janaka, you are absolutely right.

Thanks for your input.

[WayCool]

For anyone who drops by here hoping to find some sources of furnace choosing advice, I found this site to be interesting. It is from Minnesota Power.

http://www.mnpower.com/powerofone/one_home/hvac/furnace/choosing.htm

The Comparison Chart of Annual Operating Costs may answer some of your questions.

[MBH]

A quick thanks to the industry guys who post here and help us baffled consumers. I'd like to pick your brains about humidifiers.

My questions are:

1. What type should I be looking for - steam, by-pass, drum?
2. How much should I be looking to spend?
3. Install myself or hire a pro?
4. Efficiency - obvious preference given to technology that consumes less.

Last winter I did a major addition/renovation on our old (151yrs) house. A new furnace was installed at that time along with some ducting changes. (For the curious, it was a Ruud furnace, 95% efficiency with DC motor installed). At the time we never thought to look into a humidifier.

We have lots and lots of wood in the house between flooring, cabinets, trim etc. I'd like to protect our house by maintaining proper humidity levels. Also a concern is our own comfort. I'd like to avoid the dry noses, skin and "Daddy, I want a glass of water" at 3 in the morning.

Thanks again.

[shiva7]

I've tried to find out a piece of information about York two stage furnace - TM9V family - no luck or I didn't find the right place.

Does it have enclosed burners or a sealed combustion system?

It feels like I'm at Pearson airport when burners kick in on my furnace and there is a lot of noise and vibration coming from the space where the burners are located ... that part of the furnace is louder than the blower ...

Thank you for your input,

Mihai

[BaadDawg]

I replaced our furnace and AC this summer and I had a tough time at the beginning because the sales people were giving me different and often confusing information. I can tell you that a 2 stage furnave is a lot better than a single stage in terms of comfort. And you definintely want a DC variable speed brushless fan motor. We ended up with an American Standard 2 stage (we were looking seriously at the modulating unit but it was another $1000).

The A/S 2 stage is a bit more expensive than the ones you are looking at, but so far this heating season it has been much better (comfort, heat distribution and noise level) than the mid efficeincy gas single stage AC fan we replaced. It is also very important to get the right size of unit for your home. Of the 6 quotes we had half of them were for larger units than the one we purchased. The calculations used to determine the heatload are very important and are not done quickly. They (your supplier) need to measure the R value in your attic insulation, measure your windows and determine their r values etc plus do many more calculations and measurements to do a proper heat loss model of your home.

I learned what was important as I started to get quotes and was given what in some cases was a lot of BS by some of the potential service providers. Another bargaining chip is the warranty. Most will quote you 10 years parts and labour. You need to find out if it is in house parts and labour or factory parts and labour. Sometimes it is a combination. Obviously factory parts and labour is better. If one firm is offering a promotion but you want to use another and you have a written quote, you might be able to get the firm you want to use to price match. It also depends on how quickly you need a furnace. Good luck

[valleydavid]

Hello all my first post: I have rec'd the following quotes and want some input.

First; neither manufacture did any load calculations and quoted based on sq ft. and # of windows
Two story townhome
1475 Sq Ft.
18 year old Rheem Split System - probably 10 seer and now operating close to 8 seer

Vendor 1
Their receptionist said they carry Rheem, Carrier, and Trane but the Salesperson would only talk about Lennox. Anyone want to comment about Lennox quality versus Rheem, Carrier or Trane?

QUOTE:

Lennox Condensor 16Seer, 13 EER 14ACX
Lennox Coil - didn't list model number
Lennow Furnace - 80 AFLUE SL280V
10 year extended warranty; 10 years AC, 10 heating parts, 10 year compressor, 20 years heat exchanger, 10 years materials, 10 years LABOR

Includes connecting to existing drain lines, connect to existing gas lines, connect to existing vent pipes, connect to existing refigeration piping, install stainless steel gas line w/safety shutoff valve; Inspect all accessible ducts and do minor sealing if necessary; Connect to existing electrical supply, install electrical switch box, Get City permit/State Duct Certificate; Disconnect existing equipment and remove from premise, install safety shutoff switch to prevent water damage, install high efficiecy air cleaner AC16, Install Ultra violet air purification system (sterile air), use drop cloths, use crane service for roof installation, Digital and remote thermostats

PRICING:
$10,250

Rebates

Discount $2000
Before Xmas discount $500
Angie List: $100

NET BEFORE OTHER REBATES/TAXES: $7650

DWP: $100 (4-6 weeks)
Lennox: $200
Federal $1500
California State; $1000

NET after refunds/rebates: $4850

VENDOR 2

RHEEM

Install one Rheem split system of 1F 16 Seer, 2-Stge with95% and 75K BTU

Rheem Condensor of 16 Seer, 2 stage Model RARL042JEZ
Rheem Furnace with variable speed Model RGTMO7NRBGG
ADP Coil (??) Model RE50648

Remove and dispose existing old equipment, acousitic plenum splly and return, secondary drain pan, new flex ducts with metal jackets (I assume only in attic where furnace is installed), PVC wall flue vent, stainless steel gas flex connection, new disconnect box and condensation unit. INcludes plubming and Crane for roof installation

COST

$8975

Rebate:

The company only indicated the $1500 Federal tax credit

YOUR THOUGHTS; I'm interested primarily in thoughts of using Lennox, expecially the 14ACX which I have hear mix review on google searches versus Rheem or even TRANE

THANKS

[Govest]

Hi,

Currently I am trying to compare the heat loss / gain reports from two firms and they both are recommending very different sized systems. The differences are:

Firm #1)
Software: Wrightsoft
Method: F280
Winter Inside Temp: 72 F
Summer Inside Temp: 75 F
Summer Inside Humidity: 50%

Firm #2)
Software: Elite RHVAC
Method: Manual J Version 8
Winter Inside Temp: 70 F
Summer Inside Temp: 78 F
Summer Inside Humidity: 45%

Everything else would appear to be basically the same.

For heating both reports are suggesting around the same sized equipment - Report #1) 57,500 - Report #2) 53,400 - However, report #1 recommends adding a 15% safety margin on top so they want to install a 92% 72,000 Btu furnac, report #2 recommends sizing close to the size calculated 92% 60,000 Btu.

For cooling:
Report #1 suggests 21500 Sensible + 6450 Latent (27950 Total)
Report #2 suggests 18900 Sensible + 5500 Latent (24400 Total)

Similar to what was done for heat loss report #1 then adds a safety margin of 15% and based on that is recommending a 3 ton AC. On the other hand report #2 is adding nothing and is recommending a 2 ton AC.

My questions are:

1) What design conditions should be used in Ontario? In particular for cooling - 75 F or 78 F?
2) Should safety margins be added to loss/gain calculations (i.e. should equipment be sized larger than the calculations suggest is needed)?

[bririp]

Equipment should be size to the heat loss/heat gain. A contractor will increase the size to make sure they dont get complaints later on. Design temperatures are 72 for heating and 75 for cooling seasons.

By upsizing the system, you are just increasing the up front costs, and in terms of the a/c, lowering your humidity control.

The ontario building codes states that we shall install a furnace no smaller than 100% of the heating load and no more than 140%. cooling can be 80% of the cooling load-125%.

The issue is that in toronto, we use 88 degrees outdoor temp to 75 degree indoor temp as our goal. If it is 95 degrees outside, you will not get 75...or 77 if it is a properly sized unit.

It depends on what you are looking for. Some of the difference in sizing could be because they are using two different design temperatures.

[janaka]

You also need to take into account of what kind of equipement is installed.
Going larger on the furnace (other than upfront costs) isn't a huge issue if you are using a modulating furnace as it will change its capacity to whatever the requirement is. Further the efficiency also dictates the sizing. 57k output requirement is tough as you need at least a 96% furnace to output 57,600btu's... thats cutting it right on the hairy edge of what's 'needed'. I'd sure hope his calc was right if I was going to be within 100btu of the load capacity. Further how efficient is your ducting to get that BTU output where its needed? Lots of loss is likely in older ducting systems.

Out of curiousity what is the size/age of the house?

[heavy's wife]

We had the carrier infiinity MVB (80,000 btu) installed. Looking for pros/cons of a one pipe installation vs a 2 pipe.
Reason --If a 2 pipe installation were to happen, dry wall area in finished basement would have to be cut and removed in order to meet code. I wasn't told of the one pipe installation until after the fact.

Pros/cons???
Should I call them and have them switch it from the one pipe to the 2 pipe installation and we can fix the drywall later?

What are the restrictions for the air intake re windows. I know it has to be a certain distance from gas meter, water tank vent and furnace vent.

Any thoughts/input would be greatly appreciated.

[EugW]

I'm reno-ing the basement. The walls are getting R12 styrofoam insulation (where it had minimal insulation before), and forced air heating (gas furnace) with a full heat loss calculation done by an engineer.

Nonetheless I'm putting electrical baseboard heating in there too. Am I stupid? :confused:

The reason I'm doing that is that it seems that in other houses I've been in it's usually a couple of degrees cooler in the basement even if the calcs have been done, and plus the people who would usually be staying there are the elderly inlaws, who like the temp a couple of degrees warmer than I do. The rooms are already wired for 240 volt, with dedicated programmable thermostats in each room.

My question is concerning sizing.

According to the HeaterShop.com BTU calculator that I downloaded to my iPhone when I was standing in the Home Depot today, to warm up a 10' wide x 12' long x 6.5' tall room by 3 degrees would take 3159 BTUs or 925 Watts. The other room is about 10x10 so that's 771 Watts, but it's a corner room with two outside walls.

Because of this, and since the 1000 Watt and 750 Watt heaters were the same price, I just bought two 1000 Watt heaters. Does this sound right? I'm thinking slight oversizing won't be a big problem since the programmable thermostats (http://yourhome.honeywell.com/home/Products/Thermostats/5-2-Day-Programmable/RLV4300A.htm) I bought have the ability to vary the current going to heater, so that at the minimum on setting it's only running at I believe 25%, or 250 Watts.

The electrician only ran one 240 V line, but he says that should be no problem since the combined load will only be 2000 Watts, or 8.3 Amps.

[janaka]

We had the carrier infiinity MVB (80,000 btu) installed. Looking for pros/cons of a one pipe installation vs a 2 pipe.
Reason --If a 2 pipe installation were to happen, dry wall area in finished basement would have to be cut and removed in order to meet code. I wasn't told of the one pipe installation until after the fact.

Pros/cons???
Should I call them and have them switch it from the one pipe to the 2 pipe installation and we can fix the drywall later?

What are the restrictions for the air intake re windows. I know it has to be a certain distance from gas meter, water tank vent and furnace vent.

Any thoughts/input would be greatly appreciated.

two pipe is more efficient as well it does not create a negative pressure situation within the home. i'm surprised installers do one pipe anymore (other than new homes where they are cheap).

[johndeals]

I'm looking into getting a new furnace and have a basic house construction question re getting the 2 vent pipes to the outside. The furnace would be on what's essentially an outside wall of the basic 1 1/2 storey house ... but a slight twist is that beyond this wall is also a singles story finished sunroom area and what's effectively a "cold cellar" area underneath it. It's an old house ... 1917 vintage.

It seems like the easiest routing for the 2 pipes would be to run through the 1st main foundation wall ... and then through the 2nd wall to reach the outside of the "sunroom". A sales rep that came to give me an estimate was reluctant to drill holes in the 2x10 beam running over the block foundation wall because of possible concern re damaging the structure of the house. I can understand the concern to a degree, but am just trying to gauge whether the concern is miniscule or something I should take seriously and opt for a different routing.

Thoughts?

PS: The pipes would be 2-3' below a wall of windows in the sunroom. I've noticed references to code and distance required from windows etc. What distance does code require?

[Askari]

hey bririp,

quick question. i currently have a Lennox G43UF-48C-110H furnace installed, by the builder and is about 5 years old. House is roughly about 4000 sq ft with a 3rd floor loft area. Is this unit a good unit? During cold days the loft area on the 3rd floor does not get very hot.. How can I achieve better heating up there? I was thinking about running the fan 24/7 but not sure if this is efficient. I don't think this furnace has a DC motor for the fan?
Should i be looking at purchasing a better/different furnace?

thanks.

[Govest]

THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE HELP SO FAR!

When looking at the size of equipment should supplemental heating be taken into account? For example, in the country kitchen and eating area there is 3600 watt of under tile electric heating. As such this alone provides an additional 8500 Btu of heat to the house.


I'd sure hope his calc was right if I was going to be within 100btu of the load capacity. Further how efficient is your ducting to get that BTU output where its needed?

About 80% of the ducts are sealed (all joints taped) and all ducts are in conditioned spaces.


Out of curiousity what is the size/age of the house?

The house is originally 150 years old but has been completely gutted and updated. When we had the blower door pressure test done the house tested as tight... so much so that the Air Change per hour are so low that a HRV is required.

The house is 1700 square feet with an additional 1000 square feet of finished basement.

In the process of rennovations the house now has Triple Pane Krypton Glass, R28 Walls, R28 Catherdral Ceiling on one area and R50 in the main house, etc.

THANKS!

[bririp]

Wow, sounds like a great house...eco-wise.

In terms of the heat loss calc, approx 10-15% is oversized in the actual f328 and manual j calcs. You want to find the furnace as close to 100% as possible, without going under. Now, you do want to make sure the designer is confident with the calcs.



THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE HELP SO FAR!

When looking at the size of equipment should supplemental heating be taken into account? For example, in the country kitchen and eating area there is 3600 watt of under tile electric heating. As such this alone provides an additional 8500 Btu of heat to the house.



About 80% of the ducts are sealed (all joints taped) and all ducts are in conditioned spaces.



The house is originally 150 years old but has been completely gutted and updated. When we had the blower door pressure test done the house tested as tight... so much so that the Air Change per hour are so low that a HRV is required.

The house is 1700 square feet with an additional 1000 square feet of finished basement.

In the process of rennovations the house now has Triple Pane Krypton Glass, R28 Walls, R28 Catherdral Ceiling on one area and R50 in the main house, etc.

THANKS!

[shwgeek]

I'm new here (to the forum as well as to the GTA area). Very glad to have found this place!

We're looking into purchasing a townhouse which comes with electric baseboard heat. I just read about the potential rise in electricity cost in Ontario to the tune of over of around 40% in the next few years, so very strong incentives for me to do a lot more research before putting in an offer.

The townhouse has three levels: 3 bedrooms upstair, living/dining/kitchen on the main floor, and a finished basement. All with electric baseboard heating, no duct work at all. Roughly 600 sq ft per level. The water heater runs on natural gas.

So we need to look into both cooling as well as converting into a more efficient form of heating. I'm not very enthusiastic about putting duct work and a furnace in as the basement utility room is already cramped (the previous owner installed a shower there). One option I'm reading about is split unit air-to-air heat pumps, which would provide both heating and cooling. They supposedly has better efficiency than electric baseboard heat, but will only work well above a certain temperature? If that's the case, does that mean we'd still need to keep some form of supplemental heating system? Would the experts please help set me straight on my reading?

I'm also reading up on hyrdonics based heating systems. They do sound like pretty expensive options. but should be a very nice option if it can be tied in with the pre-exisintg water heater. Are there other means of heating that I should be looking into as well? I guess better insulation should fall under this category, but I'm worried about potential problems with the townhouse association if I start replacing windows and doors?

Our agent thinks that the entire HVAC system renovation can come under 10k. Do people think that's a realistic figure?

[janaka]

I'm new here (to the forum as well as to the GTA area). Very glad to have found this place!

We're looking into purchasing a townhouse which comes with electric baseboard heat. I just read about the potential rise in electricity cost in Ontario to the tune of over of around 40% in the next few years, so very strong incentives for me to do a lot more research before putting in an offer.

The townhouse has three levels: 3 bedrooms upstair, living/dining/kitchen on the main floor, and a finished basement. All with electric baseboard heating, no duct work at all. Roughly 600 sq ft per level. The water heater runs on natural gas.

So we need to look into both cooling as well as converting into a more efficient form of heating. I'm not very enthusiastic about putting duct work and a furnace in as the basement utility room is already cramped (the previous owner installed a shower there). One option I'm reading about is split unit air-to-air heat pumps, which would provide both heating and cooling. They supposedly has better efficiency than electric baseboard heat, but will only work well above a certain temperature? If that's the case, does that mean we'd still need to keep some form of supplemental heating system? Would the experts please help set me straight on my reading?

I'm also reading up on hyrdonics based heating systems. They do sound like pretty expensive options. but should be a very nice option if it can be tied in with the pre-exisintg water heater. Are there other means of heating that I should be looking into as well? I guess better insulation should fall under this category, but I'm worried about potential problems with the townhouse association if I start replacing windows and doors?

Our agent thinks that the entire HVAC system renovation can come under 10k. Do people think that's a realistic figure?
Doing ductless heat pump will provide heat/cooling in one unit but as you said you will need a secondary heat source for when its cold out (below 0*C or so) which basically means it will do fall/spring heating only.

Hydronic will be by far the most expensive to run IMO as you'll need new rads everywhere and waterline plumbed to them all. IMO running 1800 sq/ft off a tank would be a not wise idea, so you'd need a boiler.

Ductwork with a furnace and AC MAY be able to be done for $10k IF you find someone to do the duct work for cheap but then the drywall repair etc is on your hands. Most likely you'll end up with cheap equipment, not good equipment at the $10k range. But I'm not sure if you can get duct work done for in GTA.

IMO $10k is an unrealistic expectation for an agent to give you to get you into something more efficient than what you have now.

[Govest]

The ontario building codes states that we shall install a furnace no smaller than 100% of the heating load and no more than 140%. cooling can be 80% of the cooling load-125%.

Do you know if the building code says anything regarding how duct work should be done? A friend had some work done recently and could not believe how poorly the work was done. Rather than square clean cuts for takeoffs the holes cut were so poor that you could see the gaps around the flange, often the tabs on the backside were not even bent down, rather a couple of screws were put in to hold the duct in place long enough for it to be taped using the new metalic duct tape. I say 'long enough' with regards to the screws because when he pulled a piece of tape off to show me the duct fell apart - seems that all that was really holding the duct together was the tape.

Yes he reported the company to the BBB, but was told that unless the work failed to meet the building code or the firm had treated him improperly in some way that simply complaining about how a firm choose to complete a repair was not a valid complaint.

[bririp]

There isnt much in the building code in relation to ductwork installation. There are requirements for air flow to the home but that's about it. HRAI is currently working on a portion to add into the OBC.

As a contractor, I can't wait! We need better quality in this industry.

[Govest]

There are requirements for air flow to the home but that's about it. HRAI is currently working on a portion to add into the OBC.

Curious, what is stated in the code regarding air flow? Are details regarding the proposed addition public?

THANKS!

[Govest]

In terms of the heat loss calc, approx 10-15% is oversized in the actual f328 and manual j calcs.

Sounds like you may be lucky enough to know at least a little about the different load calc methods. Do you have any insights into how they compare?

I recently read that F280 is the oldest method and still the standard in Canada, MJ7 was the US method and came shortly after yielding similar results, however it was updated last year to MJ8.

MJ8 is less conservative resulting in lower numbers (like what I observed between the two quotes I got - 52K versus 57K Btu) and much better numbers when it comes to zoned systems.

Do you know if this understanding is correct?

[Govest]

Posting this question for a friend who asked and I couldn't tell him anything or find much when I searched the Web.

I know how zoning normally works - each zone has a damper, if one of more zones call for heat the furnace starts up, the dampers close for those zones which don't need heat so the furnace only sends the heat where required. I also know that since with part of the system blocked a barometric bypass is required between the supply and return on the furnace to avoid excessive back pressure.

Anyway, the house has the problem that the family room has a large south facing window with nearly 10,000 btu solar gain. This represents over a third of the total gain for the home.

Since he has limited access to the ducts and limited space to work (and is trying to reduce costs) what the contractor has proposed is what he refers to as 'econo zoning' where he plans to add a barometric damper on the main trunk which feeds the rest of the house and an electronic damper on the trunk which feeds the family room directly controlled by a thermostat in the family room. He also proposes that the blower on the furnace run constantly (which they do anyway for air quality reasons).

The contractors thinking is that if the room calls for cooling this approach will open the damper, causing more air to flow to the room and the hot air from the room to be distributed to the rest of the house. If this in turn raises the temperature in the rest of the house that will in turn call for the AC to start.

He claims this actually has an advantage over conventional zoning in that it will also work in winter time by stopping the furnace from starting unnecessarily - distributing the extra heat from the room to the rest of the house.

Has anyone heard of such an approach being used? Does it make sense?

[CF77]

This is a different question from furnace.

The damper in my square duct work started to chirp when the furnace fan is on. The damper is in a tight area. I can access the leverage handle and feel the pin on the other side. If I hold the pin side the side goes away. I think the damper is rubber the duct work. I felt the pin is spring loaded. Is there a picture of these tpe of duct dampers. What would be the best way to fix this?

[shiva7]

Hi all,

Looking for input about the noise level for York TM9V 60K - burner assembly.
Noise level meter indicates 88db without the burner door - burner compartment opened - high stage.

Is this normal?
It sounds to me like a jet engine in my basement ... confused with the " high efficiency furnaces are quiet" statement ...

Thank you for your time and input.

[janaka]

Hi all,

Looking for input about the noise level for York TM9V 60K - burner assembly.
Noise level meter indicates 88db without the burner door - burner compartment opened - high stage.

Is this normal?
It sounds to me like a jet engine in my basement ... confused with the " high efficiency furnaces are quiet" statement ...

Thank you for your time and input.

so you took the door off the furnace and tested for sound? do you run your furnace with the door open all the time? Probably not so the 88db isn't a very relevant #, also at what distance did you take the reading? 1'? 5'?

[shiva7]

so you took the door off the furnace and tested for sound? do you run your furnace with the door open all the time? Probably not so the 88db isn't a very relevant #, also at what distance did you take the reading? 1'? 5'?

Yes - that's what i did - no i don't run it with the door open all the time.
House design for ducts / registers / return plenum and position of the furnace all are very poor hence i have to make sure the furnace is quiet in operation.
88db is a lot of noise as per the ordinary noise level charts.


Reading was taken at 5 inches and for sure the furnace was the only source of noise.

Extremely confused here with the statement that the high efficiency furnace are quiet in operation ... my 26 years old York furnace didn't make so much noise ... blower and burners.
Also I find it weird that there are no specs whatsoever about the noise level for furnaces ... or maybe I haven't looked aorund in the right places.

Does anyone know an expert in GTA area for York furnaces?

Thank you for your time.

[concou]

I have a 25 yr old home with the original furnace. Every winter (for about the last 7 years or so) when it drops below freezing at night, all night long we hear extreme loud bangs through-out the night.

These bangs sound almost identical to the noise you hear, when dumping a pot of boiling water in your cold stainless steel sink.

This got me wondering, if maybe these noises might be coming from the metal duct work in the house.

With the duct work heating up and cooling off when the furnace runs and shuts off.

Could the expansion and contraction of the metal duct work be causing these loud bangs?

Any opinions would be appreciated.

Thank-you

[janaka]

I have a 25 yr old home with the original furnace. Every winter (for about the last 7 years or so) when it drops below freezing at night, all night long we hear extreme loud bangs through-out the night.

These bangs sound almost identical to the noise you hear, when dumping a pot of boiling water in your cold stainless steel sink.

This got me wondering, if maybe these noises might be coming from the metal duct work in the house.

With the duct work heating up and cooling off when the furnace runs and shuts off.

Could the expansion and contraction of the metal duct work be causing these loud bangs?

Any opinions would be appreciated.

Thank-you

it most certainly is possible its the duct work.

[janaka]

Yes - that's what i did - no i don't run it with the door open all the time.
House design for ducts / registers / return plenum and position of the furnace all are very poor hence i have to make sure the furnace is quiet in operation.
88db is a lot of noise as per the ordinary noise level charts.


Reading was taken at 5 inches and for sure the furnace was the only source of noise.

Extremely confused here with the statement that the high efficiency furnace are quiet in operation ... my 26 years old York furnace didn't make so much noise ... blower and burners.
Also I find it weird that there are no specs whatsoever about the noise level for furnaces ... or maybe I haven't looked aorund in the right places.

Does anyone know an expert in GTA area for York furnaces?

Thank you for your time.

If you run the furnace with the door on why would you test and post results of a sound test with the door off? Apples and oranges. Further a sound test from 5 inches is just plain silly. There are next to no sound tests becuase there are TOO many variables for comparison thus making the testing useless. One manufacturer may test from 5', one from 8'. All else being equal (ducting, staging, room size, wall coverings etc) those are still useless numbers to compare. Add in different ducting sizing and room size for the test and the #'s become even more useless.

For instance my AC runs at 36db...from the street, 35' away. that means my AC is the QUIETEST ac ever made in a 3 ton size since other brands publicize 65db ratings. Since my testing isn't done to the same parameters as theirs my number really means nothing in comparison... just like how your's really means nothing with the door off, and 5" away on high fire.

With regards to the furnace/ducting etc being poor and you were concerned with sound this much (to take the initiative to get a db meter etc) then you should have invested in a better furnace IMO. The YP9C would be waay quieter or the MVB/MVC from Carrier or even the G71V from Lennox. I imagine most of those weren't in the budget though. The TM9V is a great value for a high eff 2stg dc variable speed furnace. Expecting it to be silent at its price point is like asking Ford why the Fusion isn't as nice as the E350 from Mercedes, you get what you pay for.

[shiva7]

If you run the furnace with the door on why would you test and post results of a sound test with the door off? Apples and oranges. Further a sound test from 5 inches is just plain silly. There are next to no sound tests becuase there are TOO many variables for comparison thus making the testing useless. One manufacturer may test from 5', one from 8'. All else being equal (ducting, staging, room size, wall coverings etc) those are still useless numbers to compare. Add in different ducting sizing and room size for the test and the #'s become even more useless.

For instance my AC runs at 36db...from the street, 35' away. that means my AC is the QUIETEST ac ever made in a 3 ton size since other brands publicize 65db ratings. Since my testing isn't done to the same parameters as theirs my number really means nothing in comparison... just like how your's really means nothing with the door off, and 5" away on high fire.

With regards to the furnace/ducting etc being poor and you were concerned with sound this much (to take the initiative to get a db meter etc) then you should have invested in a better furnace IMO. The YP9C would be waay quieter or the MVB/MVC from Carrier or even the G71V from Lennox. I imagine most of those weren't in the budget though. The TM9V is a great value for a high eff 2stg dc variable speed furnace. Expecting it to be silent at its price point is like asking Ford why the Fusion isn't as nice as the E350 from Mercedes, you get what you pay for.


Now we are getting somewhere ... let's assume here that budget is available ... if I get out there any buy a Carrier ( btw the quote for carrier was close enough to york - i paid the money for the installation and not for the box ... that's a different story ... got burned there as well) ... how will I determine that Carrier makes less noise ... technically speaking ... how?

I'll go out there and buy whatever ... lennox / carrier ... whatever furnace ... as long as I'll get technical proof ... measurement ... that it will make less noise ...

All three - York - Carrier - Lennox same range ... money wise ... no big difference.

Which brand is quiet ... what's the noise level ... burner + blower?

I have no problem paying for expertise, if you can be of help then please contact me and will take it from there.

Thank you.

[janaka]

If you had a quote on a Carrier then you most likely have a MVB broschure from the company (2 stg variable speed, Infinity line).
At the bottom of the back of the first page there is a comparative sound rating for theier TWO infinity furnace (ICS and MVB).
The ICS is positioned just to the right of the 40db mark and the MVB is just behind the 50db mark.

Now the part that I was getting at before with regards to your test.

(quoted from printed material verbatem)

"Carrier manufactures gas furnaces that are amung the quietest in the industry. We test our products in a sound labratory specifcially built to resemble a typical residence. Sound level recordings produced at steady stat, low fire operation(the most common operating condition), measured 3 feet from furnace. Other sound levels, mentioned for comparison as pushlised at http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing.ruler.asp"

Food for thought.

[chachu]

My old Honeywell thermostat has 4 wire coming into it Red,White,Green,Blue and was looking at Prestige model but that one needs 5 wires .Any advice what and where to get this 5th wire ?
Any other recommendation for good thermostat which has backlit touchscreen and uses 4 wires ?

[shiva7]

If you had a quote on a Carrier then you most likely have a MVB broschure from the company (2 stg variable speed, Infinity line).
At the bottom of the back of the first page there is a comparative sound rating for theier TWO infinity furnace (ICS and MVB).
The ICS is positioned just to the right of the 40db mark and the MVB is just behind the 50db mark.

Now the part that I was getting at before with regards to your test.

(quoted from printed material verbatem)

"Carrier manufactures gas furnaces that are amung the quietest in the industry. We test our products in a sound labratory specifcially built to resemble a typical residence. Sound level recordings produced at steady stat, low fire operation(the most common operating condition), measured 3 feet from furnace. Other sound levels, mentioned for comparison as pushlised at http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing.ruler.asp"

Food for thought.

Which shows that Janaka did a better job on a forum than a Carrier dealer who came to my house for in-house estimate etc.
Thank you for your time - this is a starting point :)

[torontoguy777]

Hi,
First of all, Thank you so much for your valuable time, for trying to help us out.

We moved in to our first home in August 2010. It has a Carrier 58MSA (92% efficiency) installed in 2004. The unit was never serviced until we bought the house. We were renovating a lil bit and the drywall dust got in to the blower motor and it went Kaputz and we had to change it. (the contractor should never have used Central air conditioning while renovating) Anyways, while changing the motor, we got it serviced as well and everything was running fine until now. Lost heat for almost 2 days last week. I checked the furnace, the ventor motor comes on, the ignitor lights up and the gas comes on for abut 10 secs, flame goes out and the blower starts working by blowing cold air. 1-3 mins later, blower stops, ventor motor comes on and the cycle repeats all day and the light flashes to give error code 34. It reset itself yesterday and was working fine and today we come home from work, its doing that again and our inside temp is dropping. (Reduced the Aprilaire 600 humidifier's setting to low ..like at 3 coz of condensation on windows and about a month ago, peak saver installed a programmable thermostat, thought we'll mention these two things.) Do u have any idea why this is happening? Any and all help is really appreciated. Thanks for your time again.

George.

[Unnatural]

My old Honeywell thermostat has 4 wire coming into it Red,White,Green,Blue and was looking at Prestige model but that one needs 5 wires .Any advice what and where to get this 5th wire ?
Any other recommendation for good thermostat which has backlit touchscreen and uses 4 wires ?

The additional wire (5th wire) is to power the thermostat with 24-Volt.
You have to wire it from the furnace board. If you look at your furnace board, you should see a terminal labeled as "24V" or "Com" or "C".
It's really not that complicated. The most complicated part is to "fish" the wire from the furnace.

[chachu]

The additional wire (5th wire) is to power the thermostat with 24-Volt.
You have to wire it from the furnace board. If you look at your furnace board, you should see a terminal labeled as "24V" or "Com" or "C".
It's really not that complicated. The most complicated part is to "fish" the wire from the furnace.

Thanks, Any other solution if I don't want to fish the wire ,r their any digital models with backlit display ,or u have to have this 24 volt in order to get this display ?

[Unnatural]

Thanks, Any other solution if I don't want to fish the wire ,r their any digital models with backlit display ,or u have to have this 24 volt in order to get this display ?

You could go with the Honeywell Vision Pro. It will work without the 5th wire but the backlit won't be on all the time.
If you really want the have the backlit on all the time, you will have to feed 24V to it (5th wire)

[Cquential]

I really don't know much about furnaces. But in a previous thread I posted that I had water leaking from my furnace. So I called Direct Energy, and the Tech came
and deemed that my secondary heat exchanger was defective. So he red tagged it. And apparently the heat-exchanger is not a part covered under the Heating protection
plan that I'm paying for and would cost around $800 to replace. He also said, there could be something wrong with the primary heat exchanger as well.
So, He advised that it would be worth it to buy a newer furnace, a two-stage gas furnace which would apparently be more
efficient and help you save on your bills. The one he was specifically talking about has something around 70 000 BTU capacity and was a two-stage gas furnace ~ I think he called it the Amana Furnace. (Are these
furnaces any good?) So he quoted it to be around $2800 + tax , which included installation. It would come with something like a 5 years parts and labour and 15 years on the heat exchanger or something like that.

The furnace I have now is a Carrier model.
my model type: http://www.furnacecompare.com/furnaces/carrier/58MCA080-12.html
It's about 15 years old. Looks like a high efficiency model. It was installed before I moved in.

1. So should i exchange the parts or should I buy a new one? Are there any other cheaper places to buy furnaces from and get it installed? (like Sears?:http://www.sears.ca/services/installed-home-improvements/heating-and-cooling/furnaces)
2. When I mean cheaper , I don't want a cheap quality furnace o.O. I'm just wondering if Direct Energy is ripping me off with that price?
3. and is a two stage furnace actually more efficient than a high efficiency one?
4. is 70 000 BTU good enough for a 2000 square foot home?
5. Also does red-tagging it mean that they will shut off gas supply to my home?
6. o and also are there any rebate programs for buying new eco-friendly furnaces right now? lol

Some of these questions I can probably find an answer to by searching google (which I am doing right now), but I'd like other people's inputs b/c it's winter and guess I have to make my
decision quite soon. o.O

Thanks for your help!

[janaka]

You could go with the Honeywell Vision Pro. It will work without the 5th wire but the backlit won't be on all the time.
If you really want the have the backlit on all the time, you will have to feed 24V to it (5th wire)

This is what I have at home (VP8000 iirc). Its not 24/7 backlit, just when I'm making changes. Not bad for at night as I just touch the screen and it illuminates for me to see it then turns off when changes are made. Energy saver ;)

[janaka]

I really don't know much about furnaces. But in a previous thread I posted that I had water leaking from my furnace. So I called Direct Energy, and the Tech came
and deemed that my secondary heat exchanger was defective. So he red tagged it. And apparently the heat-exchanger is not a part covered under the Heating protection
plan that I'm paying for and would cost around $800 to replace. He also said, there could be something wrong with the primary heat exchanger as well.
So, He advised that it would be worth it to buy a newer furnace, a two-stage gas furnace which would apparently be more
efficient and help you save on your bills. The one he was specifically talking about has something around 70 000 BTU capacity and was a two-stage gas furnace ~ I think he called it the Amana Furnace. (Are these
furnaces any good?) So he quoted it to be around $2800 + tax , which included installation. It would come with something like a 5 years parts and labour and 15 years on the heat exchanger or something like that.

The furnace I have now is a Carrier model.
my model type: http://www.furnacecompare.com/furnaces/carrier/58MCA080-12.html
It's about 15 years old. Looks like a high efficiency model. It was installed before I moved in.

1. So should i exchange the parts or should I buy a new one? Are there any other cheaper places to buy furnaces from and get it installed? (like Sears?:http://www.sears.ca/services/installed-home-improvements/heating-and-cooling/furnaces)
2. When I mean cheaper , I don't want a cheap quality furnace o.O. I'm just wondering if Direct Energy is ripping me off with that price?
3. and is a two stage furnace actually more efficient than a high efficiency one?
4. is 70 000 BTU good enough for a 2000 square foot home?
5. Also does red-tagging it mean that they will shut off gas supply to my home?
6. o and also are there any rebate programs for buying new eco-friendly furnaces right now? lol

Some of these questions I can probably find an answer to by searching google (which I am doing right now), but I'd like other people's inputs b/c it's winter and guess I have to make my
decision quite soon. o.O

Thanks for your help!
Amanda = Goodman (I've been physically IN their manufacturing and they come off the same line) Goodman leases the Amana name for marketing purposes.

IMO if the HE has gone on the furnace at 5yrs then I`d probably look to replace it with something that qulaifies for the rebates. You`ll see some hydro savings and be warrantied at least if something happens down the road.
Its an OK furnace at best IMO.

Clearly the service/sales guy didn't explain much (if anything) to you.

2 Stage has NOTHING to do with efficiency. That is how the heating comes on (2 stages of heat available, low fire and high fire). High efficiency furnaces can be single stage (what you have now), Two stage, 3 stage, modulating Etc.

70k BTU most likely is ok for your home, really tough to say without seeing it but i'd say 95% of the time that will do

Not sure on the fine details to the tag but I know that means the furnace is condemned unless that H/E is replaced. You are NOT allowed to turn the gas on to that appliance in any situation.

There currently are TWO rebates available. Eco-Energy through the Province ($650 for your application is you go with a 94% or higher furnace with a DC brushless motor) and $150 currently through the Ontario Power Authority for a furnace with a DC brushless motor.

[janaka]

Which shows that Janaka did a better job on a forum than a Carrier dealer who came to my house for in-house estimate etc.
Thank you for your time - this is a starting point :)

Thank you.

Can you do a test like the Carrier specifies, 5 feet from the door (on, ;)) and in low fire for me. I`d appreciate it so we can see what kind of a difference there is.

Thanks.

[Rome]

We are looking to add a gas range in our house.
The easiest way to add the gas is to extend the BBQ gas pipe outside and bring it into the house.
Is it wrong to run a gas line outside of the house rather then the inside?

The basement is finished and we would need to open up the ceilings and run the line through a couple of feet.

[38racing]

My old Honeywell thermostat has 4 wire coming into it Red,White,Green,Blue and was looking at Prestige model but that one needs 5 wires .Any advice what and where to get this 5th wire ?
Any other recommendation for good thermostat which has backlit touchscreen and uses 4 wires ?

if possible you just run a new cable from the furnace to the thermostat. In my daughters case it was easy as they had used the cold air main duct which happened to have a opening in wall below where thermostat was located. You might have to use a 3 wire cable and just use one of the wires.

[38racing]

I find this thread hard to follow, having so many separate things in it. Seems to me to make sense to open a thread for any particular HVAC issue, instead of lumping them all together in one thread. Just my .02.

[FrankyB]

Gents!

My house has just celebrated it's first year anniversary; and I found myself with a defective thermostat on the AprilAir unit. Let me recap for you the gear that is installed in the house:

Carrier Gaz Furnace
Aprilaire central humidifier
DirectAir air exchanger
and an AC unit that is outside and its too damn cold for me to go check the brand; but it's there!

Now the contractor has set me up with what I call a control wall; it's made of 3 "controls" stacked one on top of the other; first the humidifier; then underneath the DirectAir control and finally the Heat/Cold control. My understanding is that the top unit is a thermostat controlling the Aprilaire (currently not working), the next one is also a thermostat but this one controlling the air exchanger; and the last one controls the central fan/blower as well as the AC unit or the Carrier furnace.

Now in my attempt to change the defective AprilAire thermostat; I went out and bought a unit that advertise that it can control my furnace, my AC as well as my whole-house humidifier. Great! But not; either I have no idea what I'm doing or the unit is defective. On the unit there's 2 ports named H1 and H2; where I am to connect the 2 wires that where previously on my humidifier thermostat. When I do this; the humidifier starts and even if I turn it off on the digital screen; it's still on.

Questions to the experts:

Is this new digital thermostat defective?

If I have to purchase a new one; isn't there a unit that can control all of my devices listed above? I would really like to get rid of these ugly thermostats! (They aren't ugly if so look at them separately; but all of them one on top of the other; plus it seems that none of them are the same white... arrrrg....)

Thanks all for any help or comments you can share!

F.

[THE_click]

Gents!

My house has just celebrated it's first year anniversary; and I found myself with a defective thermostat on the AprilAir unit. Let me recap for you the gear that is installed in the house:

Carrier Gaz Furnace
Aprilaire central humidifier
DirectAir air exchanger
and an AC unit that is outside and its too damn cold for me to go check the brand; but it's there!

Now the contractor has set me up with what I call a control wall; it's made of 3 "controls" stacked one on top of the other; first the humidifier; then underneath the DirectAir control and finally the Heat/Cold control. My understanding is that the top unit is a thermostat controlling the Aprilaire (currently not working), the next one is also a thermostat but this one controlling the air exchanger; and the last one controls the central fan/blower as well as the AC unit or the Carrier furnace.

Now in my attempt to change the defective AprilAire thermostat; I went out and bought a unit that advertise that it can control my furnace, my AC as well as my whole-house humidifier. Great! But not; either I have no idea what I'm doing or the unit is defective. On the unit there's 2 ports named H1 and H2; where I am to connect the 2 wires that where previously on my humidifier thermostat. When I do this; the humidifier starts and even if I turn it off on the digital screen; it's still on.

Questions to the experts:

Is this new digital thermostat defective?

If I have to purchase a new one; isn't there a unit that can control all of my devices listed above? I would really like to get rid of these ugly thermostats! (They aren't ugly if so look at them separately; but all of them one on top of the other; plus it seems that none of them are the same white... arrrrg....)

Thanks all for any help or comments you can share!

F.

First Off, Welcome to RFD. :facepalm:

Is your Carrier furnace able to have the Inifinty Control?
http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/controls/infinity.shtml

this thermostat is Beautiful! IMO.. :lol:

[FrankyB]

First Off, Welcome to RFD. :facepalm:

Is your Carrier furnace able to have the Inifinty Control?
http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/controls/infinity.shtml

this thermostat is Beautiful! IMO.. :lol:

I agree; this looks way better that those controls that I have stacked up on the wall! Now I can I find if my setup is compatible with this beauty? Does it control all of the devices I have?

Thanks again for your help!

[asha]

Hi there, I have a hi efficiency furnace and hrv installed. The home is a year old. Is there any reason the cold air return on the main floor should be blowing out cold air? I thought these returns are supposed to suck cold air. The home is a bi-level. The cold air return in the basement never does this as far as I know and the cold air returns in the bedrooms do not do this. When the furnace is on the return does suck but when furnace is not on..it blows cold air.

[THE_click]

I agree; this looks way better that those controls that I have stacked up on the wall! Now I can I find if my setup is compatible with this beauty? Does it control all of the devices I have?

Thanks again for your help!

It's a Carrier thermostat.

And Yes, it controls everything.

It's also one of the best thermostats on the market..IMO ;)

[janaka]

It's a Carrier thermostat.

And Yes, it controls everything.

It's also one of the best thermostats on the market..IMO ;)

for teh infinity control to control an hrv it needs a module, might want to look into that. also if its a new home I highly doubt its an infinity product (MVB or MVC/ICS) which is what is needed for their infinity controller.

If we get the model # I can tell you if its compatible.

[chachu]

First time winter vacation - Should I shut down the Furnace for couple of weeks ,while no one is home ,or should I set to what low temp. Tx

[janaka]

First time winter vacation - Should I shut down the Furnace for couple of weeks ,while no one is home ,or should I set to what low temp. Tx

shut it down? seriously? leave it on at 15* or so and go away.
turning it off is asking for a flooded basement due to a burst pipe.

[chachu]

shut it down? seriously? leave it on at 15* or so and go away.
turning it off is asking for a flooded basement due to a burst pipe.

Really ,with 15 C ,should I leave main water line open/close too ? :(

[verbalnoncents]

lol leave it at 15???
I leave my house at 10 when I am away. I would always shut off the main water valve while you are away! It is an easy thing to do.
If you live in an older house I would also drain the copper pipes! Flush all toilet after the water is shut off and empty the lowest point of water.

[janaka]

lol leave it at 15???
I leave my house at 10 when I am away. I would always shut off the main water valve while you are away! It is an easy thing to do.
If you live in an older house I would also drain the copper pipes! Flush all toilet after the water is shut off and empty the lowest point of water.

Ah right, RFD members usually live in 15* to save money, 10* it is.

[chachu]

Thanks Everyone ,so 10 - 15 C should be ok NO SHUTT OFF.
What to do with water Tank ? though it has vacation mode on it ,if I am shutting down main water supply I need to shut Gas to Tank, and unplug water tank.This shut down is not recommended by Reliance People they want me to leave it on vacation mode and not shut main water supply ? So which way to go :?:

[mnx]

Hi got a couple quotes for a new furnace, wanted some input. First of all some about my situation.

Probably going to buy a new house in 3 years or so. So price followed by efficiency followed by reliability are the biggest factors for me. Currently spending 500$ per year on gas (without the 19$ per month fixed charge) House is 1400 sqft, currently have a York 60,000btu 80% unit. I should mention that neither party who came to my house, or anyone I talked to on the phone was going to any sort of heat loss calculation. Below are the 3 options Ièm considering.


1) York TG9S060A10MF11
single stage, standard motor, 60,000 BTU
10 year parts, 10 year labour
$3135 tax in installed

The salesman impressed me the most, he seemed more like an installer very thorough fellow. He mentioned that the cold air return duct to the furnace should be replaced with an 8x24 piece (it is currently 8x14) because it would sound like a train (eg. very loud) if they left it alone.


2) Trane XR95
single stage, standard motor, 60,000 BTU
10 year parts warranty, 1 year labour
$3164 tax in, installed.

Salesman, company seem reputable but he did not mention the cold air return duct like the York furnace guy did.

3) Bryant
93% efficient
2 stage
DC Motor
60,000 BTU
10 year parts, 1 year labour
3277$ tax in installed
quote was given over the phone


I have read that Trane is a very good make and so I am leaning in that direction. Although for an extra 110$ I could upgrade to the Bryant. I set my blower to auto so the electrical savings are a minor pull. I have a single stage furnace now, so I am not sure how much more comfortable a 2 stage system would be.

Would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

- Matt

[verbalnoncents]

Do you guys recommend replacing the airconditioner coil when doing the Furnace?
My AC is only 10 yrs old...

I can't find anyone to beat Reliance's discount on their comfort plus modulating variable speed motor for $4200 for 120 000 btu...

[janaka]

Hi got a couple quotes for a new furnace, wanted some input. First of all some about my situation.

Probably going to buy a new house in 3 years or so. So price followed by efficiency followed by reliability are the biggest factors for me. Currently spending 500$ per year on gas (without the 19$ per month fixed charge) House is 1400 sqft, currently have a York 60,000btu 80% unit. I should mention that neither party who came to my house, or anyone I talked to on the phone was going to any sort of heat loss calculation. Below are the 3 options Ièm considering.


1) York TG9S060A10MF11
single stage, standard motor, 60,000 BTU
10 year parts, 10 year labour
$3135 tax in installed

The salesman impressed me the most, he seemed more like an installer very thorough fellow. He mentioned that the cold air return duct to the furnace should be replaced with an 8x24 piece (it is currently 8x14) because it would sound like a train (eg. very loud) if they left it alone.


2) Trane XR95
single stage, standard motor, 60,000 BTU
10 year parts warranty, 1 year labour
$3164 tax in, installed.

Salesman, company seem reputable but he did not mention the cold air return duct like the York furnace guy did.

3) Bryant
93% efficient
2 stage
DC Motor
60,000 BTU
10 year parts, 1 year labour
3277$ tax in installed
quote was given over the phone


I have read that Trane is a very good make and so I am leaning in that direction. Although for an extra 110$ I could upgrade to the Bryant. I set my blower to auto so the electrical savings are a minor pull. I have a single stage furnace now, so I am not sure how much more comfortable a 2 stage system would be.

Would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

- Matt

For the difference you are seeing above definitely spend the extra $110 for the two stage and DC motor. In 3 yrs you will see the $100 in hydro savings for sure. Money well spent.

[mnx]

For the difference you are seeing above definitely spend the extra $110 for the two stage and DC motor. In 3 yrs you will see the $100 in hydro savings for sure. Money well spent.

Thanks for the reply. I decided on the Trane last night as I didn't really trust the guy who just spouted out a quote over the phone. It also turns out that my old furnace and the new one have nearly identical cfm ratings so replacing the cold air return duct is not necessary. So the York tech/salesman was not quite as knowledgeable as I thought.

I was reading here: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/renoho/refash/refash_018.cfm on furance sizing and calculated I only need a 30,000 BTU unit from my gas bills. (smallest Trane is 38k BTU)

However I read here: http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/pub/home/heating_with_gas_chapter3.cfm?attr=4 that....
"Contrary to conventional and standard-efficiency furnaces, where efficiency decreases with furnace oversizing, condensing furnaces are actually more efficient when they are oversized and run for shorter periods. Thus, if you are choosing a new condensing furnace, you can get a furnace that is slightly larger than the house heat demand, without suffering an "efficiency penalty.""

I'm getting the impression that sizing calculations etc. are really a leftover from the past. I've currently got a 60k BTU York 80% model I find that it sometimes runs for short periods but that is more a function of the thermostat than anything. (The peaksaver thermostat has a really sensitive temperature swing setting) The house is also very comfortable as the furnace doesn't appear to kick out too much heat.

Is the canadian government wrong or do some furnace salesmen try to sound sophisticated by doing a bunch of fancy calculations? (thus leading some people who don't know any better to tell everyone on the internet to insist on getting a manual J calculation done)

Just trying to clear up misinformation one way or the other.

- Matt

[janaka]

Thanks for the reply. I decided on the Trane last night as I didn't really trust the guy who just spouted out a quote over the phone. It also turns out that my old furnace and the new one have nearly identical cfm ratings so replacing the cold air return duct is not necessary. So the York tech/salesman was not quite as knowledgeable as I thought.

I was reading here: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/renoho/refash/refash_018.cfm on furance sizing and calculated I only need a 30,000 BTU unit from my gas bills. (smallest Trane is 38k BTU)

However I read here: http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/pub/home/heating_with_gas_chapter3.cfm?attr=4 that....
"Contrary to conventional and standard-efficiency furnaces, where efficiency decreases with furnace oversizing, condensing furnaces are actually more efficient when they are oversized and run for shorter periods. Thus, if you are choosing a new condensing furnace, you can get a furnace that is slightly larger than the house heat demand, without suffering an "efficiency penalty.""

I'm getting the impression that sizing calculations etc. are really a leftover from the past. I've currently got a 60k BTU York 80% model I find that it sometimes runs for short periods but that is more a function of the thermostat than anything. (The peaksaver thermostat has a really sensitive temperature swing setting) The house is also very comfortable as the furnace doesn't appear to kick out too much heat.

Is the canadian government wrong or do some furnace salesmen try to sound sophisticated by doing a bunch of fancy calculations? (thus leading some people who don't know any better to tell everyone on the internet to insist on getting a manual J calculation done)

Just trying to clear up misinformation one way or the other.

- Matt
1) houses DO need heat load calc's to know what size is correct. You cannot build a house today without one, that should tell you they are important. That said do you HAVE to have one to replace your furnace? Probably not as most times its pretty straight forward for a salesman to know the sizing needs of your home. Would I trust average joe home owner to tell ME what size HE wants? Nope. If you incist I will make you sign a waiver stating you picked the furnace size and you absolve my company of anything regarding sizing.

2) moderately oversized is fine. Grossly oversized is not. Saying you want an 80k in your 1200sq/ft house is NOT going to benefit you at all.

[jmichou]

Hi there,
I just got home this evening and found out that our house is colder than usual. I checked the heater and it looks like the fan is on but cold air is blowing through the vent. I checked the thermostate and it's set on 21 degrees and there's a little light showing that the burner should be on but unfortunately it's blowing cold air.

I think that my HVAC is broken..thanks god that i have electric heater lying around as a backup specially that we have a baby.
Is it the thermostate which is not working or the heater itself?
Who do I call to have it fixed? Consumer gas??

My HVAC is a Carrier model 58MVP..

Thank you in advance..

[bririp]

Hi there,
I just got home this evening and found out that our house is colder than usual. I checked the heater and it looks like the fan is on but cold air is blowing through the vent. I checked the thermostate and it's set on 21 degrees and there's a little light showing that the burner should be on but unfortunately it's blowing cold air.

I think that my HVAC is broken..thanks god that i have electric heater lying around as a backup specially that we have a baby.
Is it the thermostate which is not working or the heater itself?
Who do I call to have it fixed? Consumer gas??

My HVAC is a Carrier model 58MVP..

Thank you in advance..

Have you changed your air filter lately?

[jmichou]

Have you changed your air filter lately?

No.. We just moved into this house couple of months ago and we are still going through the house for any repair or renovation.

Why could it be the air filter that stopped the HVAC from working?

added: I noticed that there is no pilot light when I opened the cover.. Could it be that the pilot light died down...?
Who should I call for service? Direct Energy or Enbridge or a 3rd party company who service HVAC and how much does it cost on average?

Thanks.

[Samwfive]

Hello experts,

Currently I have a builder Keeprite 90, 1 pipe, 75k btu, 15.5" width....the current 95 topline width on 60k btu is about the same and goes to 19" width with 80k & up.

My question is: with the efficient ecm blower motor, would I get away with the 60k btu model down from the current 75k? The width space is really at a premium with this install...

Second curious question is: why in the world would there be a 1 pipe (exhaust) furnace? Mine is using the house air for combustion....very afraid of caulking & foaming up the house...for I am sure I could use some "leaks"....

TIA

[retrovette]

Hello experts,

Currently I have a builder Keeprite 90, 1 pipe, 75k btu, 15.5" width....the current 95 topline width on 60k btu is about the same and goes to 19" width with 80k & up.

My question is: with the efficient ecm blower motor, would I get away with the 60k btu model down from the current 75k? The width space is really at a premium with this install...

Second curious question is: why in the world would there be a 1 pipe (exhaust) furnace? Mine is using the house air for combustion....very afraid of caulking & foaming up the house...for I am sure I could use some "leaks"....

TIA

The builder probably just used one pipe because it saved a couple of bucks.
Should be fine until you start closing things in and depriving the furnace of combustion oxygen.
If it's not too big a job, and the furnace has a port for intake air, it might be to your benefit to run an extra pvc pipe to get your combustion intake from outside.
I don't think sucking more air out of your house than is coming in is too good an idea, but that's only my opinion and I'm not an expert.
I believe that's why code requires that furnaces using one pipe, have to vent farther away from windows and doors. Negative air pressure will cause the house to suck. :)

[janaka]

Hello experts,

Currently I have a builder Keeprite 90, 1 pipe, 75k btu, 15.5" width....the current 95 topline width on 60k btu is about the same and goes to 19" width with 80k & up.

My question is: with the efficient ecm blower motor, would I get away with the 60k btu model down from the current 75k? The width space is really at a premium with this install...

Second curious question is: why in the world would there be a 1 pipe (exhaust) furnace? Mine is using the house air for combustion....very afraid of caulking & foaming up the house...for I am sure I could use some "leaks"....

TIA

with this amount of information you'd need a pyschic to tell you a 60k is enough. you didn't say the age, size, condition, location etc etc etc of the house for anyone to even remotely "rule of thumb" a size for you let alone make a relatively educated guess. Thats like me asking if 50 sheets of drywall will be enough to finish my basement with... since I gave you no information regarding anything...

[janaka]

No.. We just moved into this house couple of months ago and we are still going through the house for any repair or renovation.

Why could it be the air filter that stopped the HVAC from working?

added: I noticed that there is no pilot light when I opened the cover.. Could it be that the pilot light died down...?
Who should I call for service? Direct Energy or Enbridge or a 3rd party company who service HVAC and how much does it cost on average?

Thanks.

change the filter. birip knows his stuff, when in doubt its a cheap, easy maintenence part that really DOES affect the performance of the furnace. IF it is clogged the blower won't be able to move enough air which could cause the hi-limit switch to kill the furnace if I'm not mistaken, therefor giving you no heat. The MVP is a high efficiency Carrier IIRC and will NOT have a pilot light anyway.

[deepfunkysoul]

So direct energy came by for a maintenance check and shut off my furnace because of a defective heat exchanger. I had a second technician come out and he confirmed that it was cracked. He did a test where he opened up the top of the furnace where the heat exchanger was and poured water and then took a flash light and showed me there was moisture where the crack was. Anyways he tells me that through direct energy because they don't support Lennox furnaces it would cost 800 dollars to replace and install if under warranty, if its not it will cost more. The furnace in question is a Lennox G20Q3/4E100G2. So he advises me that it would make more sense to replace the furnace then fixing it cause its almost 20 years old. My question is, if it is under warranty what does it cost to install the the heat exchanger ? Since the reason he says is it will cost 800 is because Lennox is not one of the furnaces they deal with. Secondly, if we do decide to replace the furnace which furnace would you recommend and what price points are we looking at?

[retrovette]

Hello experts,

Currently I have a builder Keeprite 90, 1 pipe, 75k btu, 15.5" width....the current 95 topline width on 60k btu is about the same and goes to 19" width with 80k & up.

My question is: with the efficient ecm blower motor, would I get away with the 60k btu model down from the current 75k? The width space is really at a premium with this install...

Second curious question is: why in the world would there be a 1 pipe (exhaust) furnace? Mine is using the house air for combustion....very afraid of caulking & foaming up the house...for I am sure I could use some "leaks"....

TIA

The CMHC has a good information website on furnaces.

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/renoho/refash/refash_018.cfm

[johndeals]

I’ve been following this thread pretty closely to try to educate myself in prep for replacing my furnace & AC. My house is in Toronto and is an old 1 ½ story (vintage 1917) with marginal insulation etc. I had the EcoEnergy test done last spring so I’m eligible for the various grants / rebates as long as the work is done and I have my 2nd test done and submitted before the program ends on Mar 31/2011.

Current furnace - 30 year old Lennox GF8 - 120,000 btu. A/C is a little bit newer – 22 year old ICG - 32,000 btu.

A quote I have is for a York replacement system. I don’t need or want a “top of the line” or “bottom of the line” system.

a) furnace: LX-TM9V (96% efficiency; 2 stage gas valve; dc variable speed motor; likely 60,000 btu - to be finalized after order and heat loss analysis)
b) ac: Latitude-TCGF (14.5 SEER)
c) programmable thermostat
d) “10 year parts and labour warranty free and life time heat exchanger warranty”

$6690 + $870 (hst) = $7660 (This is before any grants / rebates I’m entitled).

I’m trying to get a sense of whether this price is in the “reasonable” ballpark, before I get a couple of additional quotes for an equivalent system (either York or other brand).

Thanks in advance for any / all thoughts.

[Samwfive]

with this amount of information you'd need a pyschic to tell you a 60k is enough. you didn't say the age, size, condition, location etc etc etc of the house for anyone to even remotely "rule of thumb" a size for you let alone make a relatively educated guess. Thats like me asking if 50 sheets of drywall will be enough to finish my basement with... since I gave you no information regarding anything...

LOL...fair enough. It is a 8-yr old 2-storey detached with approx 1900 sq. ft of living space including the finished basement and approx 800 sq.ft of thermal panes.

Now?

[Samwfive]

...A quote I have is for a York replacement system. I don’t need or want a “top of the line” or “bottom of the line” system.

a) furnace: LX-TM9V (96% efficiency; 2 stage gas valve; dc variable speed motor; likely 60,000 btu - to be finalized after order and heat loss analysis)
b) ac: Latitude-TCGF (14.5 SEER)
c) programmable thermostat
d) “10 year parts and labour warranty free and life time heat exchanger warranty”

$6690 + $870 (hst) = $7660 (This is before any grants / rebates I’m entitled).

I’m trying to get a sense of whether this price is in the “reasonable” ballpark, before I get a couple of additional quotes for an equivalent system (either York or other brand).

Thanks in advance for any / all thoughts.


I came across a Kijiji listing for a Keeprirte furnace seller in Markham. Just the furnace alone, 95% top-of-the-line 60k btu ECM variable speed DC motor with lifetime heat exchanger for $1350..install anywhere from 600-1000 or more(?), that's what he said. Of course there's no 10yr LABOUR warranty, else the whole furnace has 10yr parts as soon as you register at Keeprite within 60 days of install.

Just sharing....

Sonavabeach, now that I "know", I would have gladly cough upto $1000 ontop of the builder quality furnace had I been offered the choice! The hydro savings with the DC ECM motor would have recuperate that easily.

[Blaze25]

Hey guys,

I have a 2300 square foot home and will be replacing the 20yr old furnace to make use of the rebates (not included in quotes below). I have 3 quotes so far and still have 1 to come. What are your thoughts?

Carrier 58MVB080 - $4875 (Incl. GST)
Includes - MackPack filter, drain chipped in and re-cemented, 2 pipe vent
Infinity T-Stat - $267 (incl GST)
10 yr parts and 10 year labour - $260 (incl GST)
Total = $5402

Lennox G61V 90BTU - $5650 (Incl. GST)
Includes - Media Filter, 10 yr parts and 10 yr labour (with no requirement for annual maintenance to maintain warranty), roto brush duct cleaning
Less - Costco Discounts - minus $600
Total = $5050

Lennox G61V - 70 BTU - $4,622 (incl GST)
Includes - Media Filter, honeywell 6000 s2 t-stat, 10 yr parts and 10 year labour (requires annual maintenance ($80) to maintain labour warranty, 2 pipe vent
Total = $4,622
Note: I was told by this installer that the 90BTU unit wouldn't even fit with my current setup.

The 4th quote on Monday will also be for a Carrier unit.

This forum has some excellent information on it, I would appreciate your comments, feedback, suggestions.:)

Thanks

[deepfunkysoul]

So direct energy came by for a maintenance check and shut off my furnace because of a defective heat exchanger. I had a second technician come out and he confirmed that it was cracked. He did a test where he opened up the top of the furnace where the heat exchanger was and poured water and then took a flash light and showed me there was moisture where the crack was. Anyways he tells me that through direct energy because they don't support Lennox furnaces it would cost 800 dollars to replace and install if under warranty, if its not it will cost more. The furnace in question is a Lennox G20Q3/4E100G2. So he advises me that it would make more sense to replace the furnace then fixing it cause its almost 20 years old. My question is, if it is under warranty what does it cost to install the the heat exchanger ? Since the reason he says is it will cost 800 is because Lennox is not one of the furnaces they deal with. Secondly, if we do decide to replace the furnace which furnace would you recommend and what price points are we looking at?

Anyone have some advice?

[Samwfive]

Deepfunkysoul, based on the unit being 20yr old and $800 repairs if that is really what it will cost......I would go for new.

The reasoning is more efficient furnace you can get nowadays especially with DC variable speed motor <<< saves mucho energy dollars! You shouldn't be surprised if another part goes after the heat exchanger....flue motor...pressure switch...igniter...blower motor...blah blah blah..

[atifkm]

Hi,
Just bought a house and not sure that we have a humidifier.
Is it built in the furnace or need to be installed separately.
Furnace is AMANA, Model No. GUCA070BX30, MFG. NO. P1241602F, SR. NO. 0302113532.
Appreciate for your response/guidance.

[deepfunkysoul]

day 2 without heat and I have one quote which I would appreciate some expert advice on. I can manage a little longer with the cold if it means I make the right choice. This contractor came well recommended but I just thought I would ask ? You never know right.

Goodman GMH95 furnace 2 stage 95 percent efficiency DC variable motor with Humidifier for 3600 + taxes including installation.
House is 2 floor + basement + attic bedroom. Roughly about 2700 sq feet

Does this sound reasonable and also I have heard mixed reviews about Goodman what other models would be comparable to this model.?

Any help is appreciated...thanks

[jmichou]

change the filter. birip knows his stuff, when in doubt its a cheap, easy maintenence part that really DOES affect the performance of the furnace. IF it is clogged the blower won't be able to move enough air which could cause the hi-limit switch to kill the furnace if I'm not mistaken, therefor giving you no heat. The MVP is a high efficiency Carrier IIRC and will NOT have a pilot light anyway.

Hi Janaka,
Thanks for the explanation. After two days of freezing and I had a certified contractor over on the weekend and he replaced the ignitor ($88) and a faulty replay switch which means the whole circuit board (Carrier Circuit Board HK42FZ012) had to be replaced and it was costly.. ($685) :(

Overall, I paid approx $1000 which I felt was a little bit overcharged but the guy knew that I needed heat the same day since we have a kid in the house.

Thanks to BIRIP and Janaka anyway for your input..

[janaka]

day 2 without heat and I have one quote which I would appreciate some expert advice on. I can manage a little longer with the cold if it means I make the right choice. This contractor came well recommended but I just thought I would ask ? You never know right.

Goodman GMH95 furnace 2 stage 95 percent efficiency DC variable motor with Humidifier for 3600 + taxes including installation.
House is 2 floor + basement + attic bedroom. Roughly about 2700 sq feet

Does this sound reasonable and also I have heard mixed reviews about Goodman what other models would be comparable to this model.?

Any help is appreciated...thanks

$3600 + tx for that is a lot of money IMO for the quality you are getting.
I'd look for a better brand for the same type of money. Lennox, York, American standard, maybe even Carrier can be had for similar prices (or marginally more).
Dont forget warranty!

[janaka]

Hi,
Just bought a house and not sure that we have a humidifier.
Is it built in the furnace or need to be installed separately.
Furnace is AMANA, Model No. GUCA070BX30, MFG. NO. P1241602F, SR. NO. 0302113532.
Appreciate for your response/guidance.

all humidifiers are separate.
check the relative humidity in the home and see if you are comfortable. If you have hardwood or wood instruments (piano, guitars etc) i'd 100% recommend the humidifier.

[janaka]

I’ve been following this thread pretty closely to try to educate myself in prep for replacing my furnace & AC. My house is in Toronto and is an old 1 ½ story (vintage 1917) with marginal insulation etc. I had the EcoEnergy test done last spring so I’m eligible for the various grants / rebates as long as the work is done and I have my 2nd test done and submitted before the program ends on Mar 31/2011.

Current furnace - 30 year old Lennox GF8 - 120,000 btu. A/C is a little bit newer – 22 year old ICG - 32,000 btu.

A quote I have is for a York replacement system. I don’t need or want a “top of the line” or “bottom of the line” system.

a) furnace: LX-TM9V (96% efficiency; 2 stage gas valve; dc variable speed motor; likely 60,000 btu - to be finalized after order and heat loss analysis)
b) ac: Latitude-TCGF (14.5 SEER)
c) programmable thermostat
d) “10 year parts and labour warranty free and life time heat exchanger warranty”

$6690 + $870 (hst) = $7660 (This is before any grants / rebates I’m entitled).

I’m trying to get a sense of whether this price is in the “reasonable” ballpark, before I get a couple of additional quotes for an equivalent system (either York or other brand).

Thanks in advance for any / all thoughts.
The York TM9V is a great value product, def not the bottom nor the top but a great furnace. I'd say thats a fair price with the warranty included. You *may* be able to negotiate a few hundred bucks depending but all in all its good.

[janaka]

I came across a Kijiji listing for a Keeprirte furnace seller in Markham. Just the furnace alone, 95% top-of-the-line 60k btu ECM variable speed DC motor with lifetime heat exchanger for $1350..install anywhere from 600-1000 or more(?), that's what he said. Of course there's no 10yr LABOUR warranty, else the whole furnace has 10yr parts as soon as you register at Keeprite within 60 days of install.

Just sharing....

Sonavabeach, now that I "know", I would have gladly cough upto $1000 ontop of the builder quality furnace had I been offered the choice! The hydro savings with the DC ECM motor would have recuperate that easily.

$1350 for a keeprite off Kijiji is a rip off! The words "top of the line" and Keepwrong, I mean, Keeprite shouldn't go in the same sentence.
That is MAYBE a $600 furnace from a wholesaler. TOPS.

Comparing buying a furnace from kijiji vs a REPUTABLE dealer is like buying speakers from a guy in van in the Future Shop parking lot vs Future Shop themselves. Good luck with ANYTHING after teh fact, its ALL on you. Keeprite will NOT ship YOU the consumer a part, it will have to go to a licenced HVAC person. You can buy off eBay as well! You should try that too! I'm kidding, don't. Realistically that keeprite furnace retails at $27-2900 installed from an authorized dealer (or it should). So for $1500 you get professional install, labour warranty and someone to talk to if you have issues who knows the product.

[Samwfive]

$1350 for a keeprite off Kijiji is a rip off! The words "top of the line" and Keepwrong, I mean, Keeprite shouldn't go in the same sentence.
That is MAYBE a $600 furnace from a wholesaler. TOPS

Comparing buying a furnace from kijiji vs a REPUTABLE dealer is like buying speakers from a guy in van in the Future Shop parking lot vs Future Shop themselves. Good luck with ANYTHING after teh fact, its ALL on you. Keeprite will NOT ship YOU the consumer a part, it will have to go to a licenced HVAC person. You can buy off eBay as well! You should try that too! I'm kidding, don't. Realistically that keeprite furnace retails at $27-2900 installed from an authorized dealer (or it should). So for $1500 you get professional install, labour warranty and someone to talk to if you have issues who knows the product.


The dealer is gohomesaving.com with 3 branches...Markham, Mississauga & Oakville. I am NOT related to them in any shape or form nor I am in the hvac field. And here's the cut n paste of the ad:

Model Size BTU/HR Our Pric Available Rebates Up

KEEPRITE FURNACE 2 STAGE DC MOTOR 95%

C9MVX040F12A 40,000 $ 1263 $ 915
C9MVX060F12A 60,000 $1330 $ 915
C9MVX080J20A 80,000 $ 1403 $ 915
C9MVX100L20A 100,000 $ 1571 $915

YORK TM9X 95.5%

60KBTU TM9X 95.5% $1139 $915
80KBTU TM9X95.5% $1164 $915
100KBTU TM9X 95.5% $1237 $915
120KBTU TM9X 95.5% $1424 $915

1.THE UNIT ALL BRAND NEW
2. THE PRICE NOT INCLUDE DELIVERY. $50 FOR DELIVERY
3.WE CAN HELP TO INTALL THE UNIT. THE INSTALATION FEE $600-$1000 (or more if they can come up with some lame excuses..)
4.THE PRICE NOT INCLUDE INSTALLATION

http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-home-appliances-brand-new-KEEPRITE-and-york-furnace-for-sales-W0QQAdIdZ245489695

Noone in his/her right mind should/would buy a furnace off Kijiji/Ebay.....

The above is merely an eye opener into the heating industry...come to think of it...it's closed knit...not like buying a plug-n-use stove/fridge. What is the big deal of a furnace other than a steel cabinetry, a couple of motors..a few switches..circuit board..igniters..exchangers <<<$1350 more than about right. Each co makes a few lines to cater to all walks of life...manufacturing cost difference between garbage to long-lasting wouldn't be surprised at $250...and the rest in advertising/marketing...

Just recently Mr. Jimicho of this thread, a recent father and proud owner of a CARRIER, of unknown age SPENT $800...brand name huh.

The majority of consumers, at the mention of GAS...equates to FIRE!....rightly so. That's how the cookie crumbles, Janaka!

[dsoro78]

Hello,

This is my first post, but I've been lurking this site for years. I'm quite impressed and thankful for all the knowledgable people offering their professional opinions on this site and I'm hoping you can help me out. I am in the market for a complete new HVAC system. My current unit is a 28yr old beast by Lennox (100,000 BTU), which I'm told is far too big for my 2.5 story ~2200 sq/ft home. It does work and has never broken down, but I want to take advantage of the remaining rebates before the programs disappear in 2011, so I'm going to replace it. At the same time I'm looking to get central air and a new water heater (maybe tankless), in hopes to get some savings for doing it all at once.

I've researched as much as possible, reading as many reviews as I can, but it seems like there is a 50-50 split on brands. The problem is few people actually mention what unit they are getting. I'm sure every brand has low end garbage and higher end quality systems. I'm not interested in the cheap units. This is a 20yr investment, so I want something dependable.

The one universal reco is get a great installer. I think I've found a couple from my estimates provided thus far and reviews read on Homestars. So here is what I have come down to and I"m hoping to get some help from the pro's on this site.

Option 1: Goodman GMVC 950704
- 70,000 BTU, 95% Eff
- 2 stage, DC Motor
- lifetime heat exchange warranty
- 10yrs on all else
- Media filter & humidifier

Option 2: American Standard Freedom 95 Comfort R
- 80,000 BTU, 95% eff
- variable speed, modulating
- 10 yrs on all
- Accuclean Hepa Filter AFD175
- Pulse Humidifier

Option 2 is a bit more expensive then option 1 (the total bill for AC/HVAC/Water Heater is about $2K more in total).

As mentioned, both installers seem good. They both asked the same questions, told me what to watch out for, and both recommended a smaller unit then what I currently have. Neither were pushy on making the sale. All said, what is the better bet? Should I consider something else?

Thanks in advance for your input, it's much appreciated.

[janaka]

The dealer is gohomesaving.com with 3 branches...Markham, Mississauga & Oakville. I am NOT related to them in any shape or form nor I am in the hvac field. And here's the cut n paste of the ad:

Model Size BTU/HR Our Pric Available Rebates Up

KEEPRITE FURNACE 2 STAGE DC MOTOR 95%

C9MVX040F12A 40,000 $ 1263 $ 915
C9MVX060F12A 60,000 $1330 $ 915
C9MVX080J20A 80,000 $ 1403 $ 915
C9MVX100L20A 100,000 $ 1571 $915

YORK TM9X 95.5%

60KBTU TM9X 95.5% $1139 $915
80KBTU TM9X95.5% $1164 $915
100KBTU TM9X 95.5% $1237 $915
120KBTU TM9X 95.5% $1424 $915

1.THE UNIT ALL BRAND NEW
2. THE PRICE NOT INCLUDE DELIVERY. $50 FOR DELIVERY
3.WE CAN HELP TO INTALL THE UNIT. THE INSTALATION FEE $600-$1000 (or more if they can come up with some lame excuses..)
4.THE PRICE NOT INCLUDE INSTALLATION

http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-home-appliances-brand-new-KEEPRITE-and-york-furnace-for-sales-W0QQAdIdZ245489695

Noone in his/her right mind should/would buy a furnace off Kijiji/Ebay.....

The above is merely an eye opener into the heating industry...come to think of it...it's closed knit...not like buying a plug-n-use stove/fridge. What is the big deal of a furnace other than a steel cabinetry, a couple of motors..a few switches..circuit board..igniters..exchangers <<<$1350 more than about right. Each co makes a few lines to cater to all walks of life...manufacturing cost difference between garbage to long-lasting wouldn't be surprised at $250...and the rest in advertising/marketing...

Just recently Mr. Jimicho of this thread, a recent father and proud owner of a CARRIER, of unknown age SPENT $800...brand name huh.

The majority of consumers, at the mention of GAS...equates to FIRE!....rightly so. That's how the cookie crumbles, Janaka!

Maybe I missed something but what is your point? Yes there is good margin in this industry but with that comes service etc. Also there IS a greater cost difference from the entry level to the high end than $250 for certain.

I'm failing to understand your point about Mr Jimicho...did he have an $800 repair? Your typing seems to be somewhat broken to follow. Carrier's fail some times, a LOT less often than Keeprite or other brands. Every mechanical peice of equipment from Furnace to car WILL in time fail, thats just fact. Saying that bc one Carrier needed a repair for $800 doesn't discredit the entire brand.:facepalm:

Also if there was no difference between furnaces NO ONE would be able to sell a $5000 furnace instead of a $2300 furnace, yet people do and will continue to.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Everyone will stand up and say the furnace they bought is "great" becuase in the end you buy so few that you as a consumer don't necessarily see what the benefits are of the 'premium' furnaces out there. No consumer I've ever met has said "man I bought a POS" Everyone stands up for their decisions which is fine. But to say a Keeprite is the same as a Carrier Infinity couldn't be further from the truth when you know how they operate, see the day in and day out repairs/services from the industries side of things. I don't know about you but I see the failure rates first hand of furnaces so I CAN say there is a difference. I've also owned a few homes with different types of furnaces (and ac's) (from conventional to standard high eff, to the 2 stage variable speed and even variable capacity with variable speed) so I can also concretely say there ARE differences in efficiencies/quality/noise etc.

But I'm sure you are right in the end.

[janaka]

Hello,

This is my first post, but I've been lurking this site for years. I'm quite impressed and thankful for all the knowledgable people offering their professional opinions on this site and I'm hoping you can help me out. I am in the market for a complete new HVAC system. My current unit is a 28yr old beast by Lennox (100,000 BTU), which I'm told is far too big for my 2.5 story ~2200 sq/ft home. It does work and has never broken down, but I want to take advantage of the remaining rebates before the programs disappear in 2011, so I'm going to replace it. At the same time I'm looking to get central air and a new water heater (maybe tankless), in hopes to get some savings for doing it all at once.

I've researched as much as possible, reading as many reviews as I can, but it seems like there is a 50-50 split on brands. The problem is few people actually mention what unit they are getting. I'm sure every brand has low end garbage and higher end quality systems. I'm not interested in the cheap units. This is a 20yr investment, so I want something dependable.

The one universal reco is get a great installer. I think I've found a couple from my estimates provided thus far and reviews read on Homestars. So here is what I have come down to and I"m hoping to get some help from the pro's on this site.

Option 1: Goodman GMVC 950704
- 70,000 BTU, 95% Eff
- 2 stage, DC Motor
- lifetime heat exchange warranty
- 10yrs on all else
- Media filter & humidifier

Option 2: American Standard Freedom 95 Comfort R
- 80,000 BTU, 95% eff
- variable speed, modulating
- 10 yrs on all
- Accuclean Hepa Filter AFD175
- Pulse Humidifier

Option 2 is a bit more expensive then option 1 (the total bill for AC/HVAC/Water Heater is about $2K more in total).

As mentioned, both installers seem good. They both asked the same questions, told me what to watch out for, and both recommended a smaller unit then what I currently have. Neither were pushy on making the sale. All said, what is the better bet? Should I consider something else?

Thanks in advance for your input, it's much appreciated.

IMO from those two the AS is the superior product, accuclean and pulse humidifier are NICE peices as well! Money well spent in my eyes. $2k premium in the LONG run isn't much.

[nighthawk26]

The dealer is gohomesaving.com with 3 branches...Markham, Mississauga & Oakville. I am NOT related to them in any shape or form nor I am in the hvac field. And here's the cut n paste of the ad:

Model Size BTU/HR Our Pric Available Rebates Up

KEEPRITE FURNACE 2 STAGE DC MOTOR 95%

C9MVX040F12A 40,000 $ 1263 $ 915
C9MVX060F12A 60,000 $1330 $ 915
C9MVX080J20A 80,000 $ 1403 $ 915
C9MVX100L20A 100,000 $ 1571 $915

YORK TM9X 95.5%

60KBTU TM9X 95.5% $1139 $915
80KBTU TM9X95.5% $1164 $915
100KBTU TM9X 95.5% $1237 $915
120KBTU TM9X 95.5% $1424 $915

1.THE UNIT ALL BRAND NEW
2. THE PRICE NOT INCLUDE DELIVERY. $50 FOR DELIVERY
3.WE CAN HELP TO INTALL THE UNIT. THE INSTALATION FEE $600-$1000 (or more if they can come up with some lame excuses..)
4.THE PRICE NOT INCLUDE INSTALLATION

http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-home-appliances-brand-new-KEEPRITE-and-york-furnace-for-sales-W0QQAdIdZ245489695

Noone in his/her right mind should/would buy a furnace off Kijiji/Ebay.....

The above is merely an eye opener into the heating industry...come to think of it...it's closed knit...not like buying a plug-n-use stove/fridge. What is the big deal of a furnace other than a steel cabinetry, a couple of motors..a few switches..circuit board..igniters..exchangers <<<$1350 more than about right. Each co makes a few linoes to cater to all walks of life...manufacturing cost difference between garbage to long-lasting wouldn't be surprised at $250...and the rest in advertising/marketing...

Just recently Mr. Jimicho of this thread, a recent father and proud owner of a CARRIER, of unknown age SPENT $800...brand name huh.

The majority of consumers, at the mention of GAS...equates to FIRE!....rightly so. That's how the cookie crumbles, Janaka!

Yes, the cookie sure has crumbled. Lets look at a few things. Start with Keeprites website under warranty and protecting that warranty. If you don't do annual tune ups on the furnace you will voild that 10 year part and 1 year labour warranty. Do you know that the manufacturer only gives 1 year labour and thats business hours, 9-5. Even in the first year, you have an issue you're paying overtime and or weekend or holiday service rates. ALSO, if parts are ordered almost every company will have a handling charge. Why a handling charge fo rthe parts? Well simple. The labour fo rthe office staff to locate the part, get it shipped there if needed, pick it up, whatever. All this will be cost to you. Even in the first year. After that, welcome to fill cost on the rest.

As for install, I assure you, no boot and drop is being replaced. So welcome to extra cost casue you NEED it or if not "needed" be sure to call no one who cares when you complain about the noise. Also, for sure this is a single pipe install. Extra money for 2 pipe. When he tells you no difference, he's skipping the efficiency drop. How about a chimney liner often needed? A condensate pump? I've seen price point jobs and I've seen the corners that get cut. You get what you pay for!

Now lets look at the costs no one likes to see. You want 24 huor service from a reputable place. Make sure they are a member of the HRAI. Look it up, I'm not wasting my time ewxplaining the merits of it here. Hints though... TSSA, ESA, WSIB. Most of these clowns are N/A to most or all of this. How about 2 stage thermostat for your TWO stage furnace? Oh, only 2 or 3 wires there? Dont' worry, your 2 stage furnace will be a single stage in no time. What about Vehicles, showroom, carriying inventory for parts, and service, trucks, with insurance and gas, etc, etc.

[Samwfive]

Janaka, Nighthawk26 et al, thanks for the insight inadvertently. At no time I am advocating Keeprite. Just the imaginative markups of an install. I have no problem whatsoever with decent compensation.

To summarize, one needs to FIND a highly reputable company which will back it up with 5-10yr warranty & annual inspection (extras of course..no free lunch..know that). The big problem for us customers is finding that reputable company...

BTW what should an annual inspection REALLY entail? Hate to pay an "expert" who will just open up four screws holding the panels...gawk at it with pretense..."looks good!...gimme $100-200..."

[janaka]

Janaka, Nighthawk26 et al, thanks for the insight inadvertently. At no time I am advocating Keeprite. Just the imaginative markups of an install. I have no problem whatsoever with decent compensation.

To summarize, one needs to FIND a highly reputable company which will back it up with 5-10yr warranty & annual inspection (extras of course..no free lunch..know that). The big problem for us customers is finding that reputable company...

BTW what should an annual inspection REALLY entail? Hate to pay an "expert" who will just open up four screws holding the panels...gawk at it with pretense..."looks good!...gimme $100-200..."

Thats kind of our point, there are offers from some reputable company (like Nighthawk's and mine, we are coworkers) that offer the Manufacturer's extended 10yr parts AND labour warranty for free, which requires NO annual tuneups to keep the warranty inforce. That is a HUGE value to the consumer, also that warranty isn't tied to just the installer but any dealer of the brand! So heaven forbid we went out of business our customers are STILL covered for parts and labour! How awesome is that?

Inspections and cleanings are $119 or so through us, every company is different with what is included in it. I'd be lying if I said I knew what our techs did on an inspection though.

[mgs157]

I have a question involving thermostat settings. Reading everywhere it says that setting your thermostat lower in the winter will reduce your heating costs. My question is this: say it costs me $1 to increase the temperature of my house 1 degree. For example increasing the temp from 68 to 70 costs $2. My house will decrease in temp the same amount whether the temp is 68 or 70 so to maintain that temp will cost the same. So the only savings really is to get to that original temp whether it is 68 or 70? Can someone please explain where I am wrong since maintaining the same temp would cost the same so there isn't really any savings?

[zoltran]

I'm not a heating expert, but I believe your logic may be correct IF you are frequently chaining the temp.. then you are better off leaving it alone.

But heating costs are not linear .. it takes more energy to maintain a higher temp than a low one.
Savings are dependent on how long you keep it at a lower period longer..

This is a pretty common discussion and has been discussed and answered before.
You should read thru the forums, I'm sure you'll find some more info that this.

[Ahzman]

Hello,

I have a 90,000 BTU mid efficiency furnace from 2007 and I used to have a 50,000 BTU builder's standard water heater. I got rid of the water heater for a direct vent tankless unit, but I have a question about air intake for the furnace.

Right now the mechanical room has the following setup:

Some type of general 6" air intake which comes from outside the house right to some type of metal can in the mechanical room. This 6" insulated line goes nowhere else and I assume it's for combustion air for the water heater and possibly the furnace. There are no other gas burning appliances. Now that my water heater is direct vent for in/out air, I was wondering if I can remove this air line which brings in ice-cold air for the better part of the year into my house. The furnace has the following setup: There are 3 vent lines out of the house total, one is the intake I mentioned, the other is an intake for our power venting system which is for circulating fresh air into our vent system (we turn this off in the winter), and then there is another vent from the cold air main vent to the outside which does something I have no idea.

Are the two lines that feed into the cold air main vent enough (the vent fan and the other one) for combustion air for the furnace?

[bikerikey]

I have a 1200sq ft bungalow, L - shaped, running a new Carrier 58 infinity furnace. I'm renovating the basement and wondering what kind of layout I need for my heat and return runs. Upstairs, there seems to be heating in every room, but only a couple of cold air returns, one each side of the 'L'. Is this standard, or should there be more cold air returns? Other questions:
1. Should both heat and air return ducts be at floor level, or can it come through the ceiling in a basement?
2. Can I just tie into existing runs with additional extensions and vents, or do I need to keep a careful balance with number of vents on hot and cold air runs?
Anyone have a good link for DIY ductwork info?

THanks

[Limoges_shopper]

Hello,

I have a 90,000 BTU mid efficiency furnace from 2007 and I used to have a 50,000 BTU builder's standard water heater. I got rid of the water heater for a direct vent tankless unit, but I have a question about air intake for the furnace.

Right now the mechanical room has the following setup:

Some type of general 6" air intake which comes from outside the house right to some type of metal can in the mechanical room. This 6" insulated line goes nowhere else and I assume it's for combustion air for the water heater and possibly the furnace. There are no other gas burning appliances. Now that my water heater is direct vent for in/out air, I was wondering if I can remove this air line which brings in ice-cold air for the better part of the year into my house. The furnace has the following setup: There are 3 vent lines out of the house total, one is the intake I mentioned, the other is an intake for our power venting system which is for circulating fresh air into our vent system (we turn this off in the winter), and then there is another vent from the cold air main vent to the outside which does something I have no idea.

Are the two lines that feed into the cold air main vent enough (the vent fan and the other one) for combustion air for the furnace?

Hello,

Reading this creates an image of a system gone wrong:

I think that your system is very inefficient in design and equipment:

1) to have fresh air piped directly from outside to your furnace is inviting disaster, since it can lead to premature corrosion of your heat exchanger.
2) Bringing in fresh air from the outside and dumping it into the room is not a good idea since cold air is coming into the house, which means hot (heated air) is escaping your house.
3) You have a mid-efficient furnace. You already know that means you are operating a lower efficiency device to heat your home. It doesn't make fiscal sense (nor reliability or safety of occupants) to keep an old furnace, when the rebates to upgrade to a high-efficiency furnace still exist. There is a reason that they no longer allow them to be sold in Canada (there are some dwindling stocks, but no too many now).
4) a 6" line from outside, with insulation around that, or 6" with the insulation? I would think that it's the latter, as 4" should be enough. However, one must look at all the gas appliances in that area, as well as the distance of the pipe. But I have yet to see 6" for 140,000 BTU/HR appliances (furnace + water heater). I don't do combustion air sizing - maybe our friends here that have gas tickets can jump in?


So where you're concentrating on whether the combustion air pipe is big enough, I think you should be looking at getting rid of it all together and getting a sealed combustion system - a high efficiency gas furnace.

[Limoges_shopper]

I have a 1200sq ft bungalow, L - shaped, running a new Carrier 58 infinity furnace. I'm renovating the basement and wondering what kind of layout I need for my heat and return runs. Upstairs, there seems to be heating in every room, but only a couple of cold air returns, one each side of the 'L'. Is this standard, or should there be more cold air returns? Other questions:
1. Should both heat and air return ducts be at floor level, or can it come through the ceiling in a basement?
2. Can I just tie into existing runs with additional extensions and vents, or do I need to keep a careful balance with number of vents on hot and cold air runs?
Anyone have a good link for DIY ductwork info?

THanks

As an air systems designer, I can tell you that your system is "properly designed", but not necessarily designed to the best of its capability:

1. In a bungalow, you don't typically see return or supply air runs at the ceiling level. The ultimate setup is to have the return air grill on the bottom of an inside wall, with a mated return air grill above it close to the ceiling. The bottom return air grill should have a damper on it: you open it in heating mode, and close it in air conditioning mode. Remember this: you always want to get rid of unwanted air. So in Winter, the unwanted air is cold, so it will sink to the floor level, and you want to suck it from the floor. In the Summer, the revers is true, so you want to suck the hot air from the ceiling level. As far as supply air runs go, you heat at least 5 times more than you air condition, so you design your system for maximum effect during heating. This means you have your hot air coming into the room at a low level, and allow it to rise up to the top by gravity (warm air rises above colder air), with that colder air being sucked back into the return air system. I do have one caveat: I would love to see a duct just above the beds in the bedrooms that would only operate in the air conditioning season. :)

2. You can't tie into existing runs because they have been carefully balanced (or should have been!). So you kind of already knew that answer.

2.5 No, I don't know of any DIY duct design sites. I took a course to learn this, and it's a long process. To properly make any changes to your duct system, you must: 1) perform a heat loss and heat gain calculation. 2) determine the amount of airflow for each room, 3) determine the capacity of the existing furnace and air conditioner, and find the airflow characteristics of the furnace 4) measure the duct system and determine the friction of each line. 5) calculate if the furnace has enough capacity in the blower to add any lines, and if the answer is "yes", use that extra capacity in sizing you runs from the room to the main duct (trunk line). And if this isn't daunting enough: determine if your trunk line is adequately sized.

So you can see that this isn't something you want to fool around with, as any changes you make to the the duct system affect the entire system.

[Ahzman]

Hello,

Reading this creates an image of a system gone wrong:

I think that your system is very inefficient in design and equipment:

1) to have fresh air piped directly from outside to your furnace is inviting disaster, since it can lead to premature corrosion of your heat exchanger.
2) Bringing in fresh air from the outside and dumping it into the room is not a good idea since cold air is coming into the house, which means hot (heated air) is escaping your house.
3) You have a mid-efficient furnace. You already know that means you are operating a lower efficiency device to heat your home. It doesn't make fiscal sense (nor reliability or safety of occupants) to keep an old furnace, when the rebates to upgrade to a high-efficiency furnace still exist. There is a reason that they no longer allow them to be sold in Canada (there are some dwindling stocks, but no too many now).
4) a 6" line from outside, with insulation around that, or 6" with the insulation? I would think that it's the latter, as 4" should be enough. However, one must look at all the gas appliances in that area, as well as the distance of the pipe. But I have yet to see 6" for 140,000 BTU/HR appliances (furnace + water heater). I don't do combustion air sizing - maybe our friends here that have gas tickets can jump in?


So where you're concentrating on whether the combustion air pipe is big enough, I think you should be looking at getting rid of it all together and getting a sealed combustion system - a high efficiency gas furnace.

I hope some pictures can make it more clear:

This is the fresh air can which is just an insulated flex pipe to the outside:
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/1548/image1st.jpg


This is my vent blower which brings fresh air into the house regardless of whether the furnace is on (turned off right now), the left pipe is from outside, the right follows into my cold air main duct.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3092/image2vd.jpg



This is how the previous blower connects to the cold air main:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/1483/image3ti.jpg


This is a shot of the two flex pipes coming in from outside. The skinnier one on the right is the one going directly to that first pic "can" for combustion air. The fatter one on the left goes right into my cold air main. I am assuming this cold air connection to the main duct is for intake when my vent blower is not on?
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7964/image4fc.jpg

Here is those same two flex lines, this time the skinnier one is on the left and you can see it curving down. The fatter one on the right connects to the cold air main which you can kind of see behind the steel pipe. FYI that steel pipe is the same one from that blower pic. It connects to the cold air main at a further away point from the furnace than this flex pipe in the pic.
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8210/image5lpc.jpg

[Possum77]

Speaking of Carrier vs AS, I was trying to search for some comparisons on RFD, but so far no luck.
I'm thinking of going either with Carrier or AS, main point will be comfort level in the house and air filtration.

So far I have just basic questions:

1. How much more % I can expect to pay for similar Carrier equipment over let's say Am Std's Freedom95 (Platinum zv) furnace?
2. Is there any solution to have something like dual zone stat with humidity control integrated with American Standard or something that would be close to Carrier Infinity system without breaking the bank?
3. warranty plans for AS and Carrier.

[Limoges_shopper]

I hope some pictures can make it more clear:

This is the fresh air can which is just an insulated flex pipe to the outside:


This is my vent blower which brings fresh air into the house regardless of whether the furnace is on (turned off right now), the left pipe is from outside, the right follows into my cold air main duct.

This is how the previous blower connects to the cold air main:



This is a shot of the two flex pipes coming in from outside. The skinnier one on the right is the one going directly to that first pic "can" for combustion air. The fatter one on the left goes right into my cold air main. I am assuming this cold air connection to the main duct is for intake when my vent blower is not on?


Here is those same two flex lines, this time the skinnier one is on the left and you can see it curving down. The fatter one on the right connects to the cold air main which you can kind of see behind the steel pipe. FYI that steel pipe is the same one from that blower pic. It connects to the cold air main at a further away point from the furnace than this flex pipe in the pic.


Yeah, looks like the builder took the cheap way to do the ventral ventilation. I HATE this way! You should NEVER have cold air coming from outside to your furnace's return air, especially if it's a mid-efficiency gas furnace!!!!

Do ALL your bathrooms have an exhaust fan?

The cold air can cause cracking int he heat exchanger to to metal being stressed - not a good idea, but still approved by the OBC... Go figure...

Now for the real advice: ditch the furnace while there are still rebates. You'll find HVAC companies more than willing to deal with you at this time of the year: it's slim pickings from now until Spring when the mediocre air conditioning season starts. As far as the ventilation fan: since you already have 1 hole int he house, replace the fan with an HRV/ERV, and sell the fan on Ebay, or Kijiji.ca - that way you will always be tempering the air coming into your house, and you won't loose as much energy.

I would also keep that "can" - you can sell that online too: reduces the amount of air falling into the basement, and stops rodents too! :)

[Limoges_shopper]

Speaking of Carrier vs AS, I was trying to search for some comparisons on RFD, but so far no luck.
I'm thinking of going either with Carrier or AS, main point will be comfort level in the house and air filtration.

So far I have just basic questions:

1. How much more % I can expect to pay for similar Carrier equipment over let's say Am Std's Freedom95 (Platinum zv) furnace?
2. Is there any solution to have something like dual zone stat with humidity control integrated with American Standard or something that would be close to Carrier Infinity system without breaking the bank?
3. warranty plans for AS and Carrier.

It's not a secret I prefer A/S, and I have mentioned why. Technically, I can see nothing that the Carrier does that the A/S doesn't do - well of significance: on the Carrier you can adjust the continuous fan speed from the thermostat. But I like the communications side of the A/S much more than the Carrier. The phone out if there is a problem, and phone in to set the thermostat: that is a huge plus in my books. Plus all the information is displayed on the thermostat. And the furnace actually tells the service technician what the part number is of a failed part - that is so cool! If he knows that before showing up for a diagnosis, then he can be sure to have the correct parts for the repair.

As far as price goes, Carrier seems to be a priced a bit too high, especially when you compare it with A/S. Add the fact that you can insure your A/S for up to 16 years parts and labour, then you can see the long-term peace of mind.
Now, I know I haven't looked very closely at the Carrier in the past year or so, so there is a chance that I am not up to date on my facts. My fellow RFDers will let me know when I'm wrong! :D

[dsoro78]

Thanks again for all the advice here, it's much appreciated.

I've decided to go with an American Standard furnace and AC. I just have a few questions that I was hoping I could get clarified before I make my final decision.

1) A/S Dual Stage vs. Modulating: Is it worthwhile to get the modulating over the dual stage? Are the benefits that significant to justify the additional cost?

2) Air Purifiers: HEPA vs. "5inch Media Filter": I've narrowed my choice down to two companies. One thinks the HEPA filter is better, the other thinks the 5" media filter. My gut says go HEPA filter, but I really have no justification for it. Can someone explain the difference or which is better and why?

3) Humidifiers - Is there anything I should be looking out for in the system they install? one is a pulse unit, which seems good and the other I"m getting the details on. I just want to watch out for anything I should be avoiding.

Thanks again for the assistance, it's much appreciated.

[Limoges_shopper]

Thanks again for all the advice here, it's much appreciated.

I've decided to go with an American Standard furnace and AC. I just have a few questions that I was hoping I could get clarified before I make my final decision.

1) A/S Dual Stage vs. Modulating: Is it worthwhile to get the modulating over the dual stage? Are the benefits that significant to justify the additional cost?

2) Air Purifiers: HEPA vs. "5inch Media Filter": I've narrowed my choice down to two companies. One thinks the HEPA filter is better, the other thinks the 5" media filter. My gut says go HEPA filter, but I really have no justification for it. Can someone explain the difference or which is better and why?

3) Humidifiers - Is there anything I should be looking out for in the system they install? one is a pulse unit, which seems good and the other I"m getting the details on. I just want to watch out for anything I should be avoiding.

Thanks again for the assistance, it's much appreciated.

1) Well, if you can afford it, go modulating. The increased comfort is the main reason. The modulating furnaces from A/S are also communicating, which the 2-stage aren't. What does "communicating" mean for you? It means you can add a TAM (Telephone Access Module) that allows you to phone in and check what is happening with your system, it allows the system to phone out to let you, and/or the alrm company and/or your HVAC company know there is a problem. So it is a huge jump in features once you go modulating.

2) Go with the Accuclean by A/S - hands down better than what I see there. HEPA is side stream, so no purification. 5" pleated filter is the cheap way out, and is the base line for any filtration system - not just for the air you breath, but to protect your furnace. The AccuClean by A/S has better filtration than the 5" media filter, plus it does purification, and it communicates with the furnace and the thermostat when you go with the modulating furnace.

3) Go with the Honeywell TruSteam: by far the best choice on the market today. Flow-through humidifiers don't work at all with modulating furnaces, and very poorly with 2-stage furnaces. The reason is that bypass humidifiers, such as the drum type and the pad type (flow-through), bypass the air from your supply air plenum through the humidifier, and back into the return air inlet of your furnace. With modulating furnaces, the airflows drop too low for there to be enough air going through the bypass. The Trusteam by Honeywell is not a bypass humidifier, and therefor delivers humidity even at low air flows!

[Possum77]

if modulating furnace's air flow is low so how can put it in my house where I actually need more flow than now due to virtually non existing flow in some rooms?
or I need a wizard to tune dampers perfectly

[Limoges_shopper]

if modulating furnace's air flow is low so how can put it in my house where I actually need more flow than now due to virtually non existing flow in some rooms?
or I need a wizard to tune dampers perfectly

It's not that the modulating furnace has a lower airflow, because it doesn't. It's just that under lower heat losses, it will modulate down to a lower energy output, as well as a lower airflow. And even the hard to heat areas will get their share of warm airflow - this is why people are buying these furnaces.

[daaave]

we have an old oil burning forced air furnace at the cottage which works great, but when i got there last week the furnace wasnt working. i hit the reset button on the pump and then it just made a buzzing/grinding noise. could it be the blower or something else? there is oil right to the pump, but the pilot light didnt not come on after hitting reset.

any ideas would be great.

[Limoges_shopper]

we have an old oil burning forced air furnace at the cottage which works great, but when i got there last week the furnace wasnt working. i hit the reset button on the pump and then it just made a buzzing/grinding noise. could it be the blower or something else? there is oil right to the pump, but the pilot light didnt not come on after hitting reset.

any ideas would be great.

The first thing that comes to mind is that oil burners don't have pilot lights.

If you don't have ignition, but you have oil, then I would look at the transformer (the box that gives power to the electrodes, that creates the spark that ignites the oil). If you know how to determine of yours is working, then:

You should: 1) change the oil nozzle. 2) change the oil filter. 3) clean the electrodes. 4) purge air air out of the line. If you know your oil burner control, short out the fireye so that it doesn't time out on you. Now be very careful: do not run the burner for longer than 30 seconds without combustion taking place. If you do, you will saturate your combustion chamber with oil, and when it finally ignites, you could have an explosion. :)

So, if you don't know what you're doing with oil burners, you really should let the trained technicians deal with it.

[Samwfive]

Yeah, looks like the builder took the cheap way to do the ventral ventilation. I HATE this way! You should NEVER have cold air coming from outside to your furnace's return air, especially if it's a mid-efficiency gas furnace!!!!

...The cold air can cause cracking int he heat exchanger to to metal being stressed - not a good idea, but still approved by the OBC... Go figure...

You are the 2nd person mentioning this which makes perfect sense about stressing the heat exchanger...

Then again, I have seen furnaces with 2 pipes, one the obvious exhaust flue pipe, surely the 2nd is the "fresh air intake" pipe drawing from the outside??

What I am not getting it is: Doesn't the furnace need fresh air for combustion, hence the "intake" pipe? My Keeprite is a one exhaust pipe, using the house air for combustion which I have a lot of concern about that...esp with the potential negative pressure. So much so I didn't caulk a couple of draughty spots in the mechanical room.

[Miguel]

hvac noob here so please bear with me. I talked to my energy audit inspector today as my final audit is coming. He said I'd be entitled to $1500-$1600 in rebates if I upgrade my mid efficiency old keeprite furnace.

1. Is that true? Will I get back $1500 if I upgrade to a 94%+ afue furnace? I got in on the last month of the gov. home energy audit rebate.
2. Is Payne the same manufacturer as Carrier?
3. Whats the opinion here of the Payne PG9UAA http://www.payne.com/pg9uaa.html is it not the same as a Carrier infinity ICS?
4. I dont mind spending money on a furnace, what are some higher end models out there to consider?
5. Is there any that include air purification?
6. I dont suppose there are any rebates for humidifiers or air purification units?

[pmjbutler]

Make sure the vents are brought down to floor level. They are useless up in the joist space.

I'm going to be finishing my basement and I'm trying to get my head around how I would go about getting vents down to the floor level. It will be in 2x4 framed walls.

[bonerhaus]

I'm going to be finishing my basement and I'm trying to get my head around how I would go about getting vents down to the floor level. It will be in 2x4 framed walls.

You may have a hard time doing that without getting proper insulation behind the vents in the wall. You can get oval ducts that are about 1½" deep and would take up the least amount of space but unless you did something like a 2lb spray foam insulation behind it I think you may have some trouble.

[ceely]

Hello,

I discovered this thread after I started my own about the issue I'm having with my new humidifier. My husband installed the Honeywell HE260 flow-through humidifier. I think it's a 17 gallon. Anyway, after a few days, the humidity is stuck at 21-22%. Our house is 2700sq ft, brand new build. My husband is pretty knowledgeable, and knows that the circuit isn't the issue. It was installed on the cold air return, because the instructions said it didn't matter whether it is installed there or on the furnace. We have the humidistat cranked up to 60 to try to get it going, and nothing. Not even a single drop of condensation on the windows. So we know something isn't right. It's still dry in here and there is a lot of static.

Any suggestions? Please help!

[bonerhaus]

When the furnace is running and you turn the humidity up you should hear a loud click from the solenoid that operates the valve located near the humidifier, sometimes its attached directly to the unit.

Is there water flowing through the humidifier when the furnace comes on?

[ceely]

When the furnace is running and you turn the humidity up you should hear a loud click from the solenoid that operates the valve located near the humidifier, sometimes its attached directly to the unit.

Is there water flowing through the humidifier when the furnace comes on?

Thanks for your response. The answer is yes to both your comments. Any other thoughts?

[bonerhaus]

The humidifier is mounted on the return air, where is the 6" supply pipe routed from?

[ceely]

The humidifier is mounted on the return air, where is the 6" supply pipe routed from?

It's routed from the furnace to the humidifier.

[bonerhaus]

Are you getting airflow from the furnace to the humidifier? Wonder if you tapped it into a location behind the air conditioning coil and its not getting any air from it.

[janaka]

Hello,

I discovered this thread after I started my own about the issue I'm having with my new humidifier. My husband installed the Honeywell HE260 flow-through humidifier. I think it's a 17 gallon. Anyway, after a few days, the humidity is stuck at 21-22%. Our house is 2700sq ft, brand new build. My husband is pretty knowledgeable, and knows that the circuit isn't the issue. It was installed on the cold air return, because the instructions said it didn't matter whether it is installed there or on the furnace. We have the humidistat cranked up to 60 to try to get it going, and nothing. Not even a single drop of condensation on the windows. So we know something isn't right. It's still dry in here and there is a lot of static.

Any suggestions? Please help!

Why do we need two threads for this? You have LOTS of input in your other thread. More clutter isn't needed in this large thread as it is.
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/how-long-reach-proper-humidity-home-988219/

[ceely]

Are you getting airflow from the furnace to the humidifier? Wonder if you tapped it into a location behind the air conditioning coil and its not getting any air from it.

I will check this out. Thanks!

[ceely]

Why do we need two threads for this? You have LOTS of input in your other thread. More clutter isn't needed in this large thread as it is.
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/how-long-reach-proper-humidity-home-988219/

Like I said, I discovered this thread AFTER i started my own. Not to mention, some people tend to hijack threads to ask their own questions and I don't get answers to my question in MY own thread. Have a heart. Gees. It also seemed like I could get some more expert opinions in here. I am monitoring both threads. Thanks for your input.

[ceely]

Are you getting airflow from the furnace to the humidifier? Wonder if you tapped it into a location behind the air conditioning coil and its not getting any air from it.

We don't have AC yet, so we don't have a coil?

[bonerhaus]

That would be correct about the coil.

What about the airflow through the humidifier??

Where is the humidistat mounted?

[ceely]

That would be correct about the coil.

What about the airflow through the humidifier??

Where is the humidistat mounted?

The airflow is coming from the furnace if that's what you mean. The humidstat is mounted above the humidifier on the cold air return.

[Miguel]

hvac noob here so please bear with me. I talked to my energy audit inspector today as my final audit is coming. He said I'd be entitled to $1500-$1600 in rebates if I upgrade my mid efficiency old keeprite furnace.

1. Is that true? Will I get back $1500 if I upgrade to a 94%+ afue furnace? I got in on the last month of the gov. home energy audit rebate.
2. Is Payne the same manufacturer as Carrier?
3. Whats the opinion here of the Payne PG9UAA http://www.payne.com/pg9uaa.html is it not the same as a Carrier infinity ICS?
4. I dont mind spending money on a furnace, what are some higher end models out there to consider?
5. Is there any that include air purification?
6. I dont suppose there are any rebates for humidifiers or air purification units?

[janaka]

hvac noob here so please bear with me. I talked to my energy audit inspector today as my final audit is coming. He said I'd be entitled to $1500-$1600 in rebates if I upgrade my mid efficiency old keeprite furnace.

1. Is that true? Will I get back $1500 if I upgrade to a 94%+ afue furnace? I got in on the last month of the gov. home energy audit rebate.
2. Is Payne the same manufacturer as Carrier?
3. Whats the opinion here of the Payne PG9UAA http://www.payne.com/pg9uaa.html is it not the same as a Carrier infinity ICS?
4. I dont mind spending money on a furnace, what are some higher end models out there to consider?
5. Is there any that include air purification?
6. I dont suppose there are any rebates for humidifiers or air purification units?
1)if your inital audit was before april 1 2010 then you may qualify if there is funding left and you put in a 94%+AFUE with a DC brushless motor
2) Payne is OWNED by carrier, it is not a carrier product.
3) Havent seen it personally.
4)York YP9C, Carrier MVB (not a fan of the ICS personally), Lennox G71MPP
5) Generally speaking air filtration is an upgrade, although you should get a 4" media cabinet with any Infinity product from Carrier.
6) None.

[Limoges_shopper]

I'm going to be finishing my basement and I'm trying to get my head around how I would go about getting vents down to the floor level. It will be in 2x4 framed walls.

You get ducts that are made specifically for a 2x4 framed wall: 3 1/4" x 10" rectangular ducts. Then you have an adaptor on top, and you cut in the register on the bottom, using the tin from the duct to make a drywall sleeve.

[Limoges_shopper]

You are the 2nd person mentioning this which makes perfect sense about stressing the heat exchanger...

Then again, I have seen furnaces with 2 pipes, one the obvious exhaust flue pipe, surely the 2nd is the "fresh air intake" pipe drawing from the outside??

What I am not getting it is: Doesn't the furnace need fresh air for combustion, hence the "intake" pipe? My Keeprite is a one exhaust pipe, using the house air for combustion which I have a lot of concern about that...esp with the potential negative pressure. So much so I didn't caulk a couple of draughty spots in the mechanical room.

This term "fresh air intake" is confusing people. You have 2 needs for a house: combustion air for any combusitn appliances, and ventialation air for the occupants.

The pipe that goes to your furnace, but not connected to it, is for the combustion air. The pipe that has that fan connected to it is the ventilation air. That one I would remove, and replace with an HRV/ERV.

[Limoges_shopper]

You may have a hard time doing that without getting proper insulation behind the vents in the wall. You can get oval ducts that are about 1½" deep and would take up the least amount of space but unless you did something like a 2lb spray foam insulation behind it I think you may have some trouble.

You will have to be a bit ingenious: you can either "wash" the exterior wall with a vent installed in an interior wall terminating on the exterior wall, or you will have to box in the vent, or build another wall in front of your existing wall.
Basements have their own rules for comfort: most of the heat loss is from up high: header space, windows, and walls to 3 feet below grade. After that, the walls and floors have the same heat loss all year round, because of the soil's heat. And the windows in basements tend to be small, and therefor not a major heat loss, compared to above-grade windows. So you will find that you can circumvent some of the norms associated with above grade air system designs, and bend the rules a bit: If you can place a heat register close to the floor level, as well as a return air register close to the floor level, but on opposite side of the room, you will find that you will have a warm floor in that room. And warm floors are what being comfortable in basements is all about.

[Limoges_shopper]

hvac noob here so please bear with me. I talked to my energy audit inspector today as my final audit is coming. He said I'd be entitled to $1500-$1600 in rebates if I upgrade my mid efficiency old keeprite furnace.

1. Is that true? Will I get back $1500 if I upgrade to a 94%+ afue furnace? I got in on the last month of the gov. home energy audit rebate.
2. Is Payne the same manufacturer as Carrier?
3. Whats the opinion here of the Payne PG9UAA http://www.payne.com/pg9uaa.html is it not the same as a Carrier infinity ICS?
4. I dont mind spending money on a furnace, what are some higher end models out there to consider?
5. Is there any that include air purification?
6. I dont suppose there are any rebates for humidifiers or air purification units?


1)if your inital audit was before april 1 2010 then you may qualify if there is funding left and you put in a 94%+AFUE with a DC brushless motor
2) Payne is OWNED by carrier, it is not a carrier product.
3) Havent seen it personally.
4)York YP9C, Carrier MVB (not a fan of the ICS personally), Lennox G71MPP
5) Generally speaking air filtration is an upgrade, although you should get a 4" media cabinet with any Infinity product from Carrier.
6) None.


Not only is Payne NOT carrier, a Payne unit is by far a lower quality unit than Carrier - and it doesn't matter what type of equipment: from furnaces to air conditioners and controls: Payne is low-end equipment.

[janaka]

Not only is Payne NOT carrier, a Payne unit is by far a lower quality unit than Carrier - and it doesn't matter what type of equipment: from furnaces to air conditioners and controls: Payne is low-end equipment.

agreed.

[Narutard]

anyone know where to buy humidifier filters - HFT2100

i've tried all the big box stores but no luck. i'm around the yonge and eglinton area.

thanks

[Miguel]

Not only is Payne NOT carrier, a Payne unit is by far a lower quality unit than Carrier - and it doesn't matter what type of equipment: from furnaces to air conditioners and controls: Payne is low-end equipment.
Really? I heard the Payne PG9UAA is an exact duplicate of the Carrier infinity ICS (http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/infinityICS.shtml)?
They even carry the same warranty.

[Limoges_shopper]

Really? I heard the Payne PG9UAA is an exact duplicate of the Carrier infinity ICS (http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/infinityICS.shtml)?
They even carry the same warranty.

Swing and a miss! The Payne unit is not the same at all: the Carrier is a modulating furnace, and the Payne isn't. http://www.payne.com/pg9uaa.html - I think this model is a 2-stage only. Plus it does not have the communications ability of the infinity models.

And I love the tab: it says 92%, but the page says 95%. And when you want a brochure to click on - the link is dead... Real classy, eh?

[pmjbutler]

You get ducts that are made specifically for a 2x4 framed wall: 3 1/4" x 10" rectangular ducts. Then you have an adaptor on top, and you cut in the register on the bottom, using the tin from the duct to make a drywall sleeve.

Thanks for the response. Would they be found at HomeDepot / Rona / Lowes?

By code, do either of the supply or return air have to be brought down to floor level?

How many supply or return air do I calculate for a given space?

[yogilo]

I'm in Greater Vancouver area. I asked 2 Trane dealers and they told me they only give 1 year labour warranty. $300 for a 10 year extended. I was reading another thread that some people get like 5 year in the east coast. Is this set by the dealers themselves?

[nighthawk26]

Really? I heard the Payne PG9UAA is an exact duplicate of the Carrier infinity ICS (http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/infinityICS.shtml)?
They even carry the same warranty.

I heard that if a woman drinks coke after sex she can't get pregnant. AMAZING!!

[nighthawk26]

I'm in Greater Vancouver area. I asked 2 Trane dealers and they told me they only give 1 year labour warranty. $300 for a 10 year extended. I was reading another thread that some people get like 5 year in the east coast. Is this set by the dealers themselves?

I find dealers talking about warranty is abou tthe same as a politician talking out the side of his mouth. You really need to ask the right questions. WAY too many variables. Could be the dealer charging his cost on the 10 year. Are these people on the east coast paying $300, or nothing? Missed that variable all together. Most importantly, you don't live on the east coast so really does it even matter?

[Miguel]

Swing and a miss! The Payne unit is not the same at all: the Carrier is a modulating furnace, and the Payne isn't. http://www.payne.com/pg9uaa.html - I think this model is a 2-stage only. Plus it does not have the communications ability of the infinity models.

And I love the tab: it says 92%, but the page says 95%. And when you want a brochure to click on - the link is dead... Real classy, eh?
So is there any Payne or bang-for-buck furnace you'd recommend?


I heard that if a woman drinks coke after sex she can't get pregnant. AMAZING!!
Seriously?!? goodbye pull-out method... HELLO COKE!

[Limoges_shopper]

Thanks for the response. Would they be found at HomeDepot / Rona / Lowes?

By code, do either of the supply or return air have to be brought down to floor level?

How many supply or return air do I calculate for a given space?


the code does not tell you specifically, but they all tell you to follow common engineering practices.

You get this stuff from a tin shop - bring your design to them, and they will give you a quote for the whole job. Much cheaper than at Home Depot, etc...

Code say 1 return for every level of the house, and at least 1 supply for every room that has an exterior wall.

[bonerhaus]

anyone know where to buy humidifier filters - HFT2100

i've tried all the big box stores but no luck. i'm around the yonge and eglinton area.

thanks

Try Frontier. They are in Markham

55 Denison Street,
Markham Ontario
L3R 1B5
Tel.: 905-477-7974

I think they have a store in Scarlem too.

[janaka]

the code does not tell you specifically, but they all tell you to follow common engineering practices.

You get this stuff from a tin shop - bring your design to them, and they will give you a quote for the whole job. Much cheaper than at Home Depot, etc...

Code say 1 return for every level of the house, and at least 1 supply for every room that has an exterior wall.

I thought current 'code' for finishing a basement stated they had to be run to the floors...

I think Nighthawk ran into this when he finished his basement last year (yr before?).

[Limoges_shopper]

I thought current 'code' for finishing a basement stated they had to be run to the floors...

I think Nighthawk ran into this when he finished his basement last year (yr before?).
From CSA:

"At least one supply air outlet shall be provided in each finished room which is located adjacent to an unfinished space".

"All outlet(s) for heating/cooling systems, where possible, shall be perimeter outlets located so that the introduced air will bathe at least one exterior wall. Bathroom, kitchen and untility rooms are exempt where a perimeter outlet location is not practical."

"Horizontal discharge outlets shall NOT be located on an exterior wall."

And what I call The Money Shot:

"For unfinished basements .... These outlets may be located at the ceiling level". While it is recognized that high wall or ceiling diffusers are desirable for cooling, it is also recognized that the floor perimeter diffuser location provides satisfactory winter performance for heating only systems. This last part is in the text book of my air systems design course. Nowhere in the book do they tell you about finished basements and the vent location because it follows the rules set for the rest of the house.

The building code tells you to follow both CSA AND standard engineering practices. CSA tells us that methods described in ASHREA, and other organizations (such as HRAI) are accepted. So what this means is that it's an interpretation of the code. If you are doing a basement, ceiling diffusers are not the best, and since you will have interior walls, you will be able to install the registers at close to floor level. Notice that you are not allowed to install a horizontal register on an exterior wall? This means you have to use the interior walls for heating-only systems. The kicker here is that you don't air condition a basement that has little or no heat gain. Sounds frustrating, right? hehe!
However, if you come to a point in your layout that proves to be a pain in the posterior, you can always ask for the local authority (building inspector), to offer a solution.

[Limoges_shopper]

the code does not tell you specifically, but they all tell you to follow common engineering practices.

You get this stuff from a tin shop - bring your design to them, and they will give you a quote for the whole job. Much cheaper than at Home Depot, etc...

Code say 1 return for every level of the house, and at least 1 supply for every room that has an exterior wall.


I made a mistake: CSA tells you "For unfinished basements, at least one supply outlet shall be supplied for each 40 m2 (430 ft2) of floor area." It goes on to tell you they may be located at ceiling level.

[nighthawk26]

All I can say is in Kitchener it MUST be at the floor level of a finished basement. I just went through this last summer when doing my basement. Don't know if it's the city, ot TSSA or wherever, but for me, in my area, that was the fact.

[bonerhaus]

It seems to change depending on where you are. Walkout basements require at least one low wall supply but some town homes I did in Mississauga a few years ago required all of them to be low.

[vincentvega]

Hello Ask Me: First off, Thanks for the info on a/c units a ways back - a big help.

I have a high velocity furnace, combo unit that pulls heat from a 75 gallon water heater. This is a 3 story townhouse, built by Fernbrook homes. It is 7 years old, an end unit, and I would call the insulation and build quality poor to marginal at best

I would like to replace the water tank with tankless unit, or at least go woth a smaller tank, that does not have a power vent. I would like to switch out the combo unit furnace with a high effiencency unit.

My main goal here is to reduce noise. Between the noise of the high velocity motor and the power vent on water heater - it is a joke. I don't mind paying more per month for gas, so long as I can sleep in peace!

What say you?

[Limoges_shopper]

Hello Ask Me: First off, Thanks for the info on a/c units a ways back - a big help.

I have a high velocity furnace, combo unit that pulls heat from a 75 gallon water heater. This is a 3 story townhouse, built by Fernbrook homes. It is 7 years old, an end unit, and I would call the insulation and build quality poor to marginal at best

I would like to replace the water tank with tankless unit, or at least go woth a smaller tank, that does not have a power vent. I would like to switch out the combo unit furnace with a high effiencency unit.

My main goal here is to reduce noise. Between the noise of the high velocity motor and the power vent on water heater - it is a joke. I don't mind paying more per month for gas, so long as I can sleep in peace!

What say you?

Hi Vincent:

You have a problem: your high velocity system uses special ducts to handle the compressed air. A normal furnace will not be able to overcome this, and I don't know any high-v systems that have gas burners. All the onces I know of use a hydronic coil such as yours. Sorry about that!

75 Gallon tank is huge! The only reason they go with such a large tnak is because of the energy output it has. If you were on oil, a 33 Gallon oil fired water heater would be able to keep up with the house's heat loss.

Good luck. :)

[Corinthein]

Massive thread!

Will be moving to a house in a few months and would like to know the expected costs associated with getting an AC with installation for a 2200 sq foot home.

Any estimates?

[Limoges_shopper]

Massive thread!

Will be moving to a house in a few months and would like to know the expected costs associated with getting an AC with installation for a 2200 sq foot home.

Any estimates?

You're better off getting actual in-house estimates. You will want to find out things like location of unit, what the unit is being installed on, how the evaporator coil will fit and be installed, how the condensate line will be run, to where, and what materials is the piping made of, where will the electrical lines be run, etc...

You will also want to know about the equipment, the features, etc...

The various warranties.

You will also want to know what the contractor offers that is unique - maybe one contractor has a neat idea to save you money that nobody else has.

It's great to find a deal on a web site for a T.V. or something, but when you have installation and design involved, you have to get the person in the house.

Good luck! :)

[Corinthein]

You're better off getting actual in-house estimates. You will want to find out things like location of unit, what the unit is being installed on, how the evaporator coil will fit and be installed, how the condensate line will be run, to where, and what materials is the piping made of, where will the electrical lines be run, etc...

You will also want to know about the equipment, the features, etc...

The various warranties.

You will also want to know what the contractor offers that is unique - maybe one contractor has a neat idea to save you money that nobody else has.

It's great to find a deal on a web site for a T.V. or something, but when you have installation and design involved, you have to get the person in the house.

Good luck! :)

Thanks for the info!

[Mastermis]

Hi,

I posted a thread about central air here :
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/central-air-conditioning-question-992372/

I had not seen this massive thread! Could you comment please (here or there, I don't care!)

Thanks

M.

[i-rui]

Really? I heard the Payne PG9UAA is an exact duplicate of the Carrier infinity ICS (http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/infinityICS.shtml)?
They even carry the same warranty.


Swing and a miss! The Payne unit is not the same at all: the Carrier is a modulating furnace, and the Payne isn't. http://www.payne.com/pg9uaa.html - I think this model is a 2-stage only. Plus it does not have the communications ability of the infinity models.

And I love the tab: it says 92%, but the page says 95%. And when you want a brochure to click on - the link is dead... Real classy, eh?

The quote i got also said that the Payne PG9UAA is an exact duplicate of a Carrier model, except i was told it was from the Performance line. The only difference being the front cabinet.

Here's the Payne :

http://payne.com/pg9uaa.html

Here's the Carrier :

http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/performance96.shtml

So you guys are saying this is incorrect? They do seem similar, but obviously i'm a noob when it comes to furnaces.

[Nicky911]

Hey guys, purchased a new home. It's 1800 sq/ft with all hardwood no carpet. I need a central vac installed.. How many air watts do I require? Does anyone here recommend some who does the. For cheap?

[janaka]

Hey guys, purchased a new home. It's 1800 sq/ft with all hardwood no carpet. I need a central vac installed.. How many air watts do I require? Does anyone here recommend some who does the. For cheap?

you need central vac or central AC?

[janaka]

The quote i got also said that the Payne PG9UAA is an exact duplicate of a Carrier model, except i was told it was from the Performance line. The only difference being the front cabinet.

Here's the Payne :

http://payne.com/pg9uaa.html

Here's the Carrier :

http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/performance96.shtml

So you guys are saying this is incorrect? They do seem similar, but obviously i'm a noob when it comes to furnaces.

similar is not the same. and yes there is a difference in quality.

Riddle me this Batman... why would Carrier make a Performance Furnace and sell for X dollars, then make a new door, put the name Payne on it and sell it for X-Y dollars? Why wouldn't payne sell for the same price if its the same box? Further who would EVER buy the carrier at a higher price if the Payne WAS the same? No one. Carrier would canabolize their own sales... Doesn't make sense does it?

But it is a great sales pitch.

"Sir buy this Nissan, its really an Infinity but its $15k less! What a deal!"

[i-rui]

similar is not the same. and yes there is a difference in quality.

Riddle me this Batman... why would Carrier make a Performance Furnace and sell for X dollars, then make a new door, put the name Payne on it and sell it for X-Y dollars? Why wouldn't payne sell for the same price if its the same box? Further who would EVER buy the carrier at a higher price if the Payne WAS the same? No one. Carrier would canabolize their own sales... Doesn't make sense does it?

But it is a great sales pitch.

"Sir buy this Nissan, its really an Infinity but its $15k less! What a deal!"

I can't really comment on furnaces specifically because I (admittedly) know next to nothing about them, but i do know that companies DO in fact quite often have virtually the same model in a budget line vs a premium line. For instance in A/V receivers Pioneer often will use virtually the same model as their base Elite receiver as their top end model in the (cheaper) VSX line, with the exception of the case, and the difference in price is several hundred $$. Onkyo is another that will charge a very steep premium for a receiver with THX certification over one without it, even though they're exactly the same.

So while i have no idea if this is the case in this specific instance, there certainly are examples in other products that i'm familiar with.

I'm not saying you''re wrong, but how exactly are you sure they're not the same and what are the differences?

And beyond the above point, what would be the best "budget" furnace out there?

[Nicky911]

Hey janaka, I'm looking for a central vacuum? Any idea?

[janaka]

Hey janaka, I'm looking for a central vacuum? Any idea?

No, this unfortunately is the wrong thread for central vacuums. You will need to start a new thread as this one is for Heating Ventilation and AC needs for homes.

[janaka]

I can't really comment on furnaces specifically because I (admittedly) know next to nothing about them, but i do know that companies DO in fact quite often have virtually the same model in a budget line vs a premium line. For instance in A/V receivers Pioneer often will use virtually the same model as their base Elite receiver as their top end model in the (cheaper) VSX line, with the exception of the case, and the difference in price is several hundred $$. Onkyo is another that will charge a very steep premium for a receiver with THX certification over one without it, even though they're exactly the same.

So while i have no idea if this is the case in this specific instance, there certainly are examples in other products that i'm familiar with.

I'm not saying you''re wrong, but how exactly are you sure they're not the same and what are the differences?

And beyond the above point, what would be the best "budget" furnace out there?

If you are buying strictly on a budget then the Payne may be what you are looking for I guess. How much is the quote on it and what all is included? From there we can help you decide if it is a good deal for what they are offering. How's that?

[Miguel]

If you are buying strictly on a budget then the Payne may be what you are looking for I guess. How much is the quote on it and what all is included? From there we can help you decide if it is a good deal for what they are offering. How's that?

I can't comment on his price but I know I was offered the unit alone for $1400 + tax. A York YP9c-080 I was quoted around $2,000 and a Lennox G71 was around $2,200.
I mean is there a $600+ difference in these furnaces? I know it'd take 10+ years to make up that kind of money if all you're looking at is the 1% efficiency diifference (Payne being 95% and Lennox/York being 96%). What are you getting for that $600-$800 difference in unit price? All are eligible for up to $1,500 in rebates for me so its not a rebate thing.... What am I missing here?

[poupa]

Hi,

I was quoted $450 plus HST for this particular humidifier. I have hardwood through out on a 3200 sqf home. Seems a bit overpriced no? Would there be a better alternative - any recommendations?

Thank you in advance,

Poupa

[Limoges_shopper]

The quote i got also said that the Payne PG9UAA is an exact duplicate of a Carrier model, except i was told it was from the Performance line. The only difference being the front cabinet.

Here's the Payne :

http://payne.com/pg9uaa.html

Here's the Carrier :

http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/performance96.shtml

So you guys are saying this is incorrect? They do seem similar, but obviously i'm a noob when it comes to furnaces.


similar is not the same. and yes there is a difference in quality.

Riddle me this Batman... why would Carrier make a Performance Furnace and sell for X dollars, then make a new door, put the name Payne on it and sell it for X-Y dollars? Why wouldn't payne sell for the same price if its the same box? Further who would EVER buy the carrier at a higher price if the Payne WAS the same? No one. Carrier would canabolize their own sales... Doesn't make sense does it?

But it is a great sales pitch.

"Sir buy this Nissan, its really an Infinity but its $15k less! What a deal!"


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thin the Carrier model is what we call a "builder model" furnace. So the Payne top-of-the-line is similar to the Carrier builder model - yippeee! ;)

[i-rui]

If you are buying strictly on a budget then the Payne may be what you are looking for I guess. How much is the quote on it and what all is included? From there we can help you decide if it is a good deal for what they are offering. How's that?

$2800 for the Payne PG9UAA 60,000 BTU installed (95%)

$2400 for the PAYNE PG9MXA, 60,000 BTU installed (92%)

the installer is also willing to waive the labor fees from trying to fix my current furnace, so if i don't go with him id be out a couple of hundred dollars to square up.

[Limoges_shopper]

$2800 for the Payne PG9UAA 60,000 BTU installed (95%)

$2400 for the PAYNE PG9MXA, 60,000 BTU installed (92%)

the installer is also willing to waive the labor fees from trying to fix my current furnace, so if i don't go with him id be out a couple of hundred dollars to square up.

Looks to me that you will be going with the piece of crap furnace then! :)

[Shaf]

Hoping someone can help me here... I had posed in a separate thread as well.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/new-home-hvac-what-do-you-recommend-992806/

We are moving to a brand new home in a few weeks and it only comes with a furnace.

We have been looking around for an AC and humidifier. I see a lot of posts and info on ERVs, HRVs, steam humidifiers, Accuclean Whole Home Air cleaners, etc.

Wanted to get feedback and help on deciding what is recommended to get for the new home.

The house is 3100 sq ft. Has hardwood on half the main-floor and hallway upstairs. Tile in bathrooms, kitchen and foyer. Carpet in the bedrooms.

Do you recommend a steam humidifier, ERV (or HRV) and a Whole home cleaner? We definitely need an AC and humidifier (not sure if it should be steam)

What should we be looking to get and from where?

Thanks!

[janaka]

I can't comment on his price but I know I was offered the unit alone for $1400 + tax. A York YP9c-080 I was quoted around $2,000 and a Lennox G71 was around $2,200.
I mean is there a $600+ difference in these furnaces? I know it'd take 10+ years to make up that kind of money if all you're looking at is the 1% efficiency diifference (Payne being 95% and Lennox/York being 96%). What are you getting for that $600-$800 difference in unit price? All are eligible for up to $1,500 in rebates for me so its not a rebate thing.... What am I missing here?

If you are getting them at the wholesaler for those prices I would spend the extra $500 in a heartbeat. Sound levels, build quality are all heads and tales better than the Payne. Payne is a low grade builder type furnace (yes, even their dc versions aren't comparable to the top quality brands).

Boggles my mind that a $5-600 difference on an item like a furnace is a make or break when it has a 20+yr life expectancy! Thats $30/yr difference in service... Even if the cost of use (utilities) is the EXACT same its money well spent as to MOST people there are things that don't have money attached to them... like comfort in the home (both temperature AND sound ratings) etc.

The G71 is by FAR in a league of its own for sound over the Payne, and the YP9C is a modulating furnace vs the 2 stage Payne. Night and day differences, which unfortunately if not presented properly get lost in "features" most home owners compare...

People see 95 vs 96 vs 97.5 etc, 2 stg, variable speed and think that all are equal... they aren't.

For instance the Yorks use a DC motor which on average consumes 83w the G71 on average consumes around 200w. But both are advertized at DC variable speed and qualify for the same rebate. Is there a difference? yup.

Some Carrier people classify the MVC (3stg) as a modulating furnace since the dictionary says modulating is anything with more than 2 stages or something silly like that... well 3 stags vs 65 is a little different isnt' it? yup.

In the end its your money so spend it as you will but in this industry specifically is mediocre equipment out there. Payne is one of those units IMO (and I have sold them before but no longer work for that company due to complaints...we also sold goodman and amana...) Now I sell York and Carrier (we dropped the Lennox lineup) all premier brands, quality equipment.

[janaka]

$2800 for the Payne PG9UAA 60,000 BTU installed (95%)

$2400 for the PAYNE PG9MXA, 60,000 BTU installed (92%)

the installer is also willing to waive the labor fees from trying to fix my current furnace, so if i don't go with him id be out a couple of hundred dollars to square up.

They ONLY sell Payne? Usually Payne is a dealers cheap brand and they will sell a better brand as well...
IMO thats on par for what I'd expect for that product. Depends what your budget and expectations are in the end if you will be happy. Obviously a good furnace will cost more than that though.

[i-rui]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thin the Carrier model is what we call a "builder model" furnace. So the Payne top-of-the-line is similar to the Carrier builder model - yippeee! ;)

OK, that's fine by me if that's the case. I just want to see if the furnace guy is being honest & accurate or not.

So i guess you're saying the "builder" Carrrier models are also "piece of crap furnaces"?


Looks to me that you will be going with the piece of crap furnace then! :)




They ONLY sell Payne? Usually Payne is a dealers cheap brand and they will sell a better brand as well...
IMO thats on par for what I'd expect for that product. Depends what your budget and expectations are in the end if you will be happy. Obviously a good furnace will cost more than that though.

He's a contractor, not a dealer. He knows I'm on a budget and those were the 2 he recommended.

This furnace replacement is unexpected and i haven't planned for it. I have some large bills from the holidays that need to be paid, so i'm definitely on a budget. I don't see myself living in my current home for the rest of my life (although i could see myself here for 10+ more years). It's a small bungalow, and i usually keep the temp around 20° in the winter, so i don't think my furnace works terribly hard (although it is a 50 year old house, so i'm sure i lose a lot of heat from the upstairs windows)

Do you think I'd be better off going with the 95% efficiency model for $400 more? Money is tight, but if it's much better value i can live with it.

[Limoges_shopper]

OK, that's fine by me if that's the case. I just want to see if the furnace guy is being honest & accurate or not.

So i guess you're saying the "builder" Carrier models are also "piece of crap furnaces"?

I believe that ALL builder model furnaces are pieces of crap. You are FAR better off buying a furnace with D.C. variable speed than upgrading from 94 to 95% efficiency. With hydro rates skyrocketting like they are, you will see a return on your investment from electricity quickly enough to justify the additional cost. And remember folks: if you VOTE of LIBERAL, then you are part of the problem! The Liberal government is raising hydro rates by 40% over the next few years (I think it's less than 5 years).

As seen here too often, the low sticker price is all that deal-seekers see, and they have little thought into overall energy savings, and return on investment.

So what is the return on investment, you ask? It depends on the overall cost, but if you look at average saving for D.C. motor being around $250.00/year for the average house, and then you add 40% to that figure, you'll end up with around $350.00/year for the upgrade. Not bad, eh? So you;'re going to be there for 10 years? Then you can take that figure, multiply it by 10, add for interest that the money could have earned while in your bank, and add increased cost of energy (you didn't think they would stop increasing the hydro rates after 5 years, did you?). I estimate it at least a $5,000.00 savings over the next 10 years. Name 1 investment you can make with that kind of return - there are none, with any kind of certainty attached to the performance. Also, your house becomes more sell-able when you have a D.C. variable speed motor in you furnace because new home owners in the year 2121 will know all about these motors since they will be the standard.





He's a contractor, not a dealer. He knows I'm on a budget and those were the 2 he recommended.

This furnace replacement is unexpected and i haven't planned for it. I have some large bills from the holidays that need to be paid, so i'm definitely on a budget. I don't see myself living in my current home for the rest of my life (although i could see myself here for 10+ more years). It's a small bungalow, and i usually keep the temp around 20° in the winter, so i don't think my furnace works terribly hard (although it is a 50 year old house, so i'm sure i lose a lot of heat from the upstairs windows)

Do you think I'd be better off going with the 95% efficiency model for $400 more? Money is tight, but if it's much better value i can live with it.

If you deal with a dealer, they tend to have financing options that really make sense: pay what you can, defer the rest for 6 months, and save up to pay it off: no interest charges.

So sometimes the low sticker price results in thousands of dollars in missed opportunity. The ol' Payne becomes a pain in the wallet! :)

[i-rui]

I think both Payne models i was quoted on have DC motors. Not sure if they're both variable speed....but the PG9UAA certainly is.

just double checked. both Payne furnace's are two stage with dc motor. the PG9UAA has a variable speed motor.

[Limoges_shopper]

I think both Payne models i was quoted on have DC motors. Not sure if they're both variable speed....but the PG9UAA certainly is.

just double checked. both Payne furnace's are two stage with dc motor. the PG9UAA has a variable speed motor.

I see that it says that - that's a real low - stupid low price, BTW. Something is wrong here. Probably a side guy trying to make a few bucks on the side after work maybe?

[i-rui]

i'll have to look into it further.

So what exactly is the advantage of the variable DC motor over just a standard DC motor? is the extra bump to 95% and the variable motor worth a $400 price bump?

[Limoges_shopper]

i'll have to look into it further.

So what exactly is the advantage of the variable DC motor over just a standard DC motor? is the extra bump to 95% and the variable motor worth a $400 price bump?

None: they are the same.

[janaka]

None: they are the same.

I'm going to disagree.

Some manufacturer's use fix speed DC motors in entry level products and variable speed in the rest of their lineup.

Carrier's Boost furnace is a 2stg furnace with a fixed speed DC blower, its not a variable speed motor.

[manhattan01]

Hi...quick question. We live in a 3 story home; basement, main and upper. The basement and main are heated by gas (forced air). The upper by electric baseboard - no ducts run to the third. The upper floor has the bedrooms. We cannot sleep upstairs in the summer when there's extreme heat as the house is too hot - 36 degrees on the upper floor, 28 on the main and a nice 22 in the basement. Because there are no ducts on the uppers floor, and because the house has a really open floorplan (3200 sqft)..is a ductless heatpump like a Mr. Slim the best choice? I don't care to heat/cool the basement. Or is it more cost effective to run window AC units - I'd only really want to cool the place in the summer for the few weeks of extreme heat we do get but a nice bonus might be to warm the place in the winter. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Unnatural]

Question for Limoge_Shopper (Welcome back by the way !)

I got a media filter box installed (Carrier EZ Filter) a while ago. The installation was made by an HVAC contractor. He did a great job. The perimeter of the filter box was sealed. Since the installation of the media filter, I can hear a "whistling sound" when the fan is on. I only hear the sound when when I'm on the first and second storey. When I'm close to the furnace, I don't hear that whistling sound.

If I remove the filter from the filter box, the sound stops. The contractor came back to verify if everything was ok. He said it must be the filter since everything is sealed properly and the "return" was adequate for the filter (enough air going through the filter).

Is there anything I can do to solve this issue. It's really annoying. I was reading on the net that the sound could come from air going around the filter ?

Any input would be appreciated.

[Limoges_shopper]

Question for Limoge_Shopper (Welcome back by the way !)

I got a media filter box installed (Carrier EZ Filter) a while ago. The installation was made by an HVAC contractor. He did a great job. The perimeter of the filter box was sealed. Since the installation of the media filter, I can hear a "whistling sound" when the fan is on. I only hear the sound when when I'm on the first and second storey. When I'm close to the furnace, I don't hear that whistling sound.

If I remove the filter from the filter box, the sound stops. The contractor came back to verify if everything was ok. He said it must be the filter since everything is sealed properly and the "return" was adequate for the filter (enough air going through the filter).

Is there anything I can do to solve this issue. It's really annoying. I was reading on the net that the sound could come from air going around the filter ?

Any input would be appreciated.

That is a weird one. The noise is cancelled when you remove the filter... do you close the cover to the filter cabinet when you do the test with the filter removed?

[Limoges_shopper]

Hi...quick question. We live in a 3 story home; basement, main and upper. The basement and main are heated by gas (forced air). The upper by electric baseboard - no ducts run to the third. The upper floor has the bedrooms. We cannot sleep upstairs in the summer when there's extreme heat as the house is too hot - 36 degrees on the upper floor, 28 on the main and a nice 22 in the basement. Because there are no ducts on the uppers floor, and because the house has a really open floorplan (3200 sqft)..is a ductless heatpump like a Mr. Slim the best choice? I don't care to heat/cool the basement. Or is it more cost effective to run window AC units - I'd only really want to cool the place in the summer for the few weeks of extreme heat we do get but a nice bonus might be to warm the place in the winter. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Ductless heat pumps are very efficient these days. Mr. Slim is not the best you can get your hands on, but is a good product. Have a look at efficiency, and you will see the differences. Get many proposals, and pick the best for you.

[Unnatural]

The door was removed when I did the test without the filter.


That is a weird one. The noise is cancelled when you remove the filter... do you close the cover to the filter cabinet when you do the test with the filter removed?

[Limoges_shopper]

That is a weird one. The noise is cancelled when you remove the filter... do you close the cover to the filter cabinet when you do the test with the filter removed?


The door was removed when I did the test without the filter.

Perform the test again, but this time remove the filter from the cabinet, and close the door.

[manhattan01]

Ductless heat pumps are very efficient these days. Mr. Slim is not the best you can get your hands on, but is a good product. Have a look at efficiency, and you will see the differences. Get many proposals, and pick the best for you.

Thank you Limoges! I contacted a local installer (hard to find) and they quoted me $4000 for a Mr. Slim with one head unit. Additional head units are $4000 a piece.

That's a lot.

[janaka]

Thank you Limoges! I contacted a local installer (hard to find) and they quoted me $4000 for a Mr. Slim with one head unit. Additional head units are $4000 a piece.

That's a lot.

OUCH.
That's high IMO depending what btu rating the unit is.
For what its worth I have had great success with Fujitsu ductless units; might be worth looking into them as an option as well.

[Anonymouse]

Are there any thermostats (available either in Canada or the US) that will accept 2 temperature sensors? I want to control the plant based on the main floor temperature during the day and based on the second floor temperature at night.

If the second sensor were wireless that would be great.

[Limoges_shopper]

Thank you Limoges! I contacted a local installer (hard to find) and they quoted me $4000 for a Mr. Slim with one head unit. Additional head units are $4000 a piece.

That's a lot.


OUCH.
That's high IMO depending what btu rating the unit is.
For what its worth I have had great success with Fujitsu ductless units; might be worth looking into them as an option as well.

Yeah, that's real high too. Look further - ask for prices from different contractors, and demand to know how the will install it (where pipes will be ran, etc...).

[Limoges_shopper]

Are there any thermostats (available either in Canada or the US) that will accept 2 temperature sensors? I want to control the plant based on the main floor temperature during the day and based on the second floor temperature at night.

If the second sensor were wireless that would be great.

NOt that I know. The best way I know to accomplish this si the set up 2 thermostats in parallel, and program them to "swap" tasks depending on the time of the day: you set you setback the ground floor thermostat real low during the evening, and the upstairs one real low during the day.

Make sure they are NOT power-robbing thermostats!

[Unnatural]

I just did the test without the filter and with door closed: no sound.
But I noticed something as I was putting the filter back in the cabinet. The sound only started when the filter was fully inserted. If I pull the filter out of only 1", the sound doesn't happen.



Perform the test again, but this time remove the filter from the cabinet, and close the door.

[Limoges_shopper]

I just did the test without the filter and with door closed: no sound.
But I noticed something as I was putting the filter back in the cabinet. The sound only started when the filter was fully inserted. If I pull the filter out of only 1", the sound doesn't happen.

I'm baffled - I'd need to see it personally to figure out where the sound is coming from - if not the filter itself, then I don't know why a lower airflow would result in noise...

[THE_click]

Question for Limoge_Shopper (Welcome back by the way !)

I got a media filter box installed (Carrier EZ Filter) a while ago. The installation was made by an HVAC contractor. He did a great job. The perimeter of the filter box was sealed. Since the installation of the media filter, I can hear a "whistling sound" when the fan is on. I only hear the sound when when I'm on the first and second storey. When I'm close to the furnace, I don't hear that whistling sound.


If I remove the filter from the filter box, the sound stops. The contractor came back to verify if everything was ok. He said it must be the filter since everything is sealed properly and the "return" was adequate for the filter (enough air going through the filter).

Is there anything I can do to solve this issue. It's really annoying. I was reading on the net that the sound could come from air going around the filter ?

Any input would be appreciated.

If you only heard the sound from the top floors.. it could possibly be the actual C.A.R.'s on your main floor. They are sometimes known to whistle when people makes changes to their systems.. I.E. change furnace, New filter maybe?.

This usually happens because of changes in pressure.

We sometimes get service calls from "banging" & "pop noises" or whistling. If it was determined the C.A.R.'s on the main floor were the cause.. we would install a sheet metal damper/deflector too disrupt the airflow. This will hopefully provide a change to the pressure, which makes your cold air return "whistle".



I just did the test without the filter and with door closed: no sound.
But I noticed something as I was putting the filter back in the cabinet. The sound only started when the filter was fully inserted. If I pull the filter out of only 1", the sound doesn't happen.

This makes sense. Pulling the filter out 1" is allowing the air to by-pass the filter through that 1" gap, thus eliminating the noise.

No pressure bulid up.

I'm now leaning towards it being the filter itself..

BTW, I meant to ask.. do you have New Furnace with an efficient motor?


I'm baffled - I'd need to see it personally to figure out where the sound is coming from - if not the filter itself, then I don't know why a lower airflow would result in noise...

+1

This I'd say.. is the best guess we can both offer here. You really need to have somebody deal with these types of problems "hands on".


BTW, Limoges shopper.. Your were right about the humidifier thing. They should always be installed on the RETURN Air and the BY-Pass on the HOT Air when around the furnace. So, I'll admit I was WRONG!!! < lol :razz:

On the other hand, You & I should both realize... there are way too many factors involved to determine that "every" hose on the market will leak when hot water goes through it!

How could we know what temperature the water is?

How could we know what type of tubing is possibly being used?

How could we know how well the hose is fitted?

Is the hose made to handle the expansion and contraction from water temerature??

K, I'm done.. :lol:

+1 Respect
Limoges shopper ;)


Really, it all comes down to the UNIQUE TRAITS OF EVERY HOME thing. << Yeah I Said it again! ;)

[mikedavid00]

Hi,

I have a 2500 sq ft house facing south. It's in Mississauga. The house is from 1985 or so and the furnace is original.

I now have a water leak coming from the bottom of my furnace and would like to replace it and get the upgrade over with. The fan also sequels on shut off.

The A/C was replaced about 5 years ago from the previous owners and it seems to work fine. I do not want an A/C.

I would like a furnace that is quiet. That would probably be my most important factor as we plan on renovating the basement and the current one is pretty loud so the basement isn't very comfortable when it's on.

We are not that old and do not have that much money to spend on this. Unfortunately we can't afford high end and cannot afford to pay high mark up pricing from contractors. (this is Red Flag Deals after all)

Any help on where to get fair pricing or how to go about this please pm me or respond.

Any comments on the below ad:

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-services-skilled-trades-1499-High-Efficiency-Furnace-Installed-W0QQAdIdZ251987533

[Unnatural]

Thank you Limoge_Shopper and The_Click for your help. Really appreciated !

I've tried with another filter (brand new Carrier filter) and I still get the same noise.
If I go with a filter with a lower MERV rating there's should be less pressure build up and possibly no whistle ??

This is a new home. The furnace (Carrier) is 2 years old. With the previous filter cabinet (basic 1" wide cabinet) it didn't get that same noise even with super restrictive filters such as the 3M filtrete.

When the cabinet was installed, they had to change the return boot. It was also necessary to add a new transition.
I've attached a photo of my setup so you can see the return boot and transition (sorry for the low quality cellphone photo)

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1118/furnace.jpg

Thanks !!!



If you only heard the sound from the top floors.. it could possibly be the actual C.A.R.'s on your main floor. They are sometimes known to whistle when people makes changes to their systems.. I.E. change furnace, New filter maybe?.

This usually happens because of changes in pressure.

We sometimes get service calls from "banging" & "pop noises" or whistling. If it was determined the C.A.R.'s on the main floor were the cause.. we would install a sheet metal damper/deflector too disrupt the airflow. This will hopefully provide a change to the pressure, which makes your cold air return "whistle".

This makes sense. Pulling the filter out 1" is allowing the air to by-pass the filter through that 1" gap, thus eliminating the noise.

No pressure bulid up.

I'm now leaning towards it being the filter itself..

BTW, I meant to ask.. do you have New Furnace with an efficient motor?

[janaka]

Hi,

I have a 2500 sq ft house facing south. It's in Mississauga. The house is from 1985 or so and the furnace is original.

I now have a water leak coming from the bottom of my furnace and would like to replace it and get the upgrade over with. The fan also sequels on shut off.

The A/C was replaced about 5 years ago from the previous owners and it seems to work fine. I do not want an A/C.

I would like a furnace that is quiet. That would probably be my most important factor as we plan on renovating the basement and the current one is pretty loud so the basement isn't very comfortable when it's on.

We are not that old and do not have that much money to spend on this. Unfortunately we can't afford high end and cannot afford to pay high mark up pricing from contractors. (this is Red Flag Deals after all)

Any help on where to get fair pricing or how to go about this please pm me or respond.

Any comments on the below ad:

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-services-skilled-trades-1499-High-Efficiency-Furnace-Installed-W0QQAdIdZ251987533
Goodman is not good nor quiet.

What is your budget and maybe we can help point you in the direction of a product that will fit your needs.
I can tell you you are not likely to get a good quality product for the $1500 price range, period.

[Anonymouse]

NOt that I know. The best way I know to accomplish this si the set up 2 thermostats in parallel, and program them to "swap" tasks depending on the time of the day: you set you setback the ground floor thermostat real low during the evening, and the upstairs one real low during the day.

Make sure they are NOT power-robbing thermostats!

Thanks. I noticed that Honeywell makes a thermostat (Prestige) that has a wireless remote that I could use upstairs. It's not as good as an automatic control, but my wife can just dial the temperature up when she feels cold at night. I think I can get one on ebay for high $200s with an external air temperature sensor.

It would be great if the Prestige took the external air temperature into account when it recovers from my daytime setback before I get home, but I'm not sure if these home thermostats are that sophisticated. It sometimes takes an extra hour to recover from the setback when the external air temperature is -25 like it was the other day, so if it could start recovering an hour sooner that would be optimal.

[Limoges_shopper]

If you only heard the sound from the top floors.. it could possibly be the actual C.A.R.'s on your main floor. They are sometimes known to whistle when people makes changes to their systems.. I.E. change furnace, New filter maybe?.

This usually happens because of changes in pressure.

We sometimes get service calls from "banging" & "pop noises" or whistling. If it was determined the C.A.R.'s on the main floor were the cause.. we would install a sheet metal damper/deflector too disrupt the airflow. This will hopefully provide a change to the pressure, which makes your cold air return "whistle".


[/B]

This makes sense. Pulling the filter out 1" is allowing the air to by-pass the filter through that 1" gap, thus eliminating the noise.

No pressure bulid up.

I'm now leaning towards it being the filter itself..

BTW, I meant to ask.. do you have New Furnace with an efficient motor?



+1

This I'd say.. is the best guess we can both offer here. You really need to have somebody deal with these types of problems "hands on".


BTW, Limoges shopper.. Your were right about the humidifier thing. They should always be installed on the RETURN Air and the BY-Pass on the HOT Air when around the furnace. So, I'll admit I was WRONG!!! < lol :razz:

On the other hand, You & I should both realize... there are way too many factors involved to determine that "every" hose on the market will leak when hot water goes through it!

How could we know what temperature the water is?

How could we know what type of tubing is possibly being used?

How could we know how well the hose is fitted?

Is the hose made to handle the expansion and contraction from water temperature??

K, I'm done.. :lol:

+1 Respect
Limoges shopper ;)


Really, it all comes down to the UNIQUE TRAITS OF EVERY HOME thing. << Yeah I Said it again! ;)
If the sound appeared when the filter was removed (i.e. increased airflow), then it would be the return air duct system that is whistling. Since it is only when the filter is filly in, then is the point of lowest airflow, so I too think it's not that. But what baffles me is that the sound can't be heard from the furnace room, but can be heard in other rooms.

With regards to hoses, and water temperatures: you don't know what the temperature is. All I can say is that after a couple of flooded basements, I no longer allow hot water supply to humidifiers on my jobs. I think what is happening is the hose gets soft and the brass ring expands, or the plastic ring gets soft too. So the end result is that the hose shoots out of its fitting, and you have water being sprayed everywhere! Imagine the phone call to the service department...

[Limoges_shopper]

Thanks. I noticed that Honeywell makes a thermostat (Prestige) that has a wireless remote that I could use upstairs. It's not as good as an automatic control, but my wife can just dial the temperature up when she feels cold at night. I think I can get one on ebay for high $200s with an external air temperature sensor.

It would be great if the Prestige took the external air temperature into account when it recovers from my daytime setback before I get home, but I'm not sure if these home thermostats are that sophisticated. It sometimes takes an extra hour to recover from the setback when the external air temperature is -25 like it was the other day, so if it could start recovering an hour sooner that would be optimal.


They actually do solve that problem with what they call Adaptive Recovery. The system uses the track record of the 3 previous days for that time period (say coming home from work in the afternoon), and decides when to start heating you home. So if you prgram a return home time of 4:00 PM, it might start an hour sooner to get you up to temperature. The only problem with this system, is that it does not know how to react to large temperature swings: say today it's -25C and the 3 previous days it was -5C at the same time of day: It will not have the house warm enough on time since it it thinks the weather is a lot warmer.
Now, I do not know of any thermostats that use the outdoor temperature in calculating the recovery time (time to bring the house to the desired temperature).

good luck!

[Unnatural]

Limoge_Shopper

I can barely hear the sound when next to the furnace. I have to be really really attentive to hear it. But on the first and second floors, it's a different story. I assume the sound is amplified by the duct work.

Is there anything I can do to fix this problem permanently ?

- Get a filter with lower MERV rating ??

I would really like to get your opinion about the return boot they installed(see photo in my previous photo). I'm not convinced about the work ...

Thanks !!!


If the sound appeared when the filter was removed (i.e. increased airflow), then it would be the return air duct system that is whistling. Since it is only when the filter is filly in, then is the point of lowest airflow, so I too think it's not that. But what baffles me is that the sound can't be heard from the furnace room, but can be heard in other rooms.

With regards to hoses, and water temperatures: you don't know what the temperature is. All I can say is that after a couple of flooded basements, I no longer allow hot water supply to humidifiers on my jobs. I think what is happening is the hose gets soft and the brass ring expands, or the plastic ring gets soft too. So the end result is that the hose shoots out of its fitting, and you have water being sprayed everywhere! Imagine the phone call to the service department...

[BillyH]

I figured I should post this here too...

I just posted a thread regarding wire gauge for a future A/C unit...

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/electrical-wiring-possible-future-central-air-994457/

[dwalker]

does anyone have any information on moving a furnace. We are looking at getting a new high efficiency furnace installed and want to have it moved about 6 feet. It would be right under where the return air is an looks like it would be minimal extra metal. Does anyone have a ball park figure. We were quoted $900 does this seem reasonable?

Thanks

[janaka]

does anyone have any information on moving a furnace. We are looking at getting a new high efficiency furnace installed and want to have it moved about 6 feet. It would be right under where the return air is an looks like it would be minimal extra metal. Does anyone have a ball park figure. We were quoted $900 does this seem reasonable?

Thanks
For your area thats probably in the ball park. I'd probably charge $750 or so, the last company I worked for would have been over $1000.

[mikedavid00]

Goodman is not good nor quiet.

What is your budget and maybe we can help point you in the direction of a product that will fit your needs.
I can tell you you are not likely to get a good quality product for the $1500 price range, period.

Something in the $3000 range would be nice.

The energy company told us that we have to get the audit and furnace purchase before Mar 31 or we won't get the rebate. Should we bother with the rebate? Do we need to get it done through the power company or are there independent people doing them for cheaper?

We plan on using the basement and the current furnace runs loud. We'd like something quiet and low price..

Thanks so much for the help. We've been having bad experiences calling around this morning. The people answering the phone don't seem to know the product very well and can't understand simple questions like if it's quiet and hidden charges etc.

[Limoges_shopper]

Thank you Limoge_Shopper and The_Click for your help. Really appreciated !

I've tried with another filter (brand new Carrier filter) and I still get the same noise.
If I go with a filter with a lower MERV rating there's should be less pressure build up and possibly no whistle ??

This is a new home. The furnace (Carrier) is 2 years old. With the previous filter cabinet (basic 1" wide cabinet) it didn't get that same noise even with super restrictive filters such as the 3M filtrete.

When the cabinet was installed, they had to change the return boot. It was also necessary to add a new transition.
I've attached a photo of my setup so you can see the return boot and transition (sorry for the low quality cellphone photo)

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1118/furnace.jpg

Thanks !!!

Your photo quality is great - no issues there.

The issue I have is with turning vanes, or lack thereof. The return boot has no horizontal portion before it hits the filter. It HAS to have at least one and is better with 2 turning vanes to channel the air so you don't get as much pressure variances. This is probably what is causing the noise, and it should be rectified by the installing contractor. I knew I would find something installation-related! :)

[furnacepower]

I paid $3850 for a Climate Care by York TM9V060 2-stage variable speed furnace including install and removal of the old one. In addition I paid $400 for a high density media filter and $425 for a HU-12 flow thru humidifier. The worst part is my old furnace was still running with no problems. My neighbours changed their fruance and convinced me that the rebate program was expiring soon. Now I'm reeling from the $4500 it just cost me. The upside is that this company is supposed to provide very good service....Did I pay too much as usual.:cry:

[Unnatural]

Your photo quality is great - no issues there.

The issue I have is with turning vanes, or lack thereof. The return boot has no horizontal portion before it hits the filter. It HAS to have at least one and is better with 2 turning vanes to channel the air so you don't get as much pressure variances. This is probably what is causing the noise, and it should be rectified by the installing contractor. I knew I would find something installation-related! :)

Thanks Limoges…

I really hate the new return boot they've installed. I'm not a big fan of the ugly transition.
Where can I get a return boot made with turning vanes in Ottawa ? You've recommended BreezeHill last time. Do you still recommend them ?
Do they only deal with contractors only or I can show up there with the specs and they will make it ?

Thanks again for the help. It's really appreciated.

[Munchos]

If the sound appeared when the filter was removed (i.e. increased airflow), then it would be the return air duct system that is whistling. Since it is only when the filter is filly in, then is the point of lowest airflow, so I too think it's not that. But what baffles me is that the sound can't be heard from the furnace room, but can be heard in other rooms.

With regards to hoses, and water temperatures: you don't know what the temperature is. All I can say is that after a couple of flooded basements, I no longer allow hot water supply to humidifiers on my jobs. I think what is happening is the hose gets soft and the brass ring expands, or the plastic ring gets soft too. So the end result is that the hose shoots out of its fitting, and you have water being sprayed everywhere! Imagine the phone call to the service department...

Thats why you never use 1/4" plastic tubing but 1/4" copper instead. Also, did you know you MUST install the humidifier to the hot water line when installing it to a Heat pump system? I was in between calls and reading a Carrier SBP manual the other day, and it specifically stated this.

And NEVER ever install a humidifier on the plenum above the furnace. It can be installed like this but I would rather have water leak onto a cheap piece of metal than all over a $5000 furnace. Its not pretty when this happens.

[janaka]

Something in the $3000 range would be nice.

The energy company told us that we have to get the audit and furnace purchase before Mar 31 or we won't get the rebate. Should we bother with the rebate? Do we need to get it done through the power company or are there independent people doing them for cheaper?

We plan on using the basement and the current furnace runs loud. We'd like something quiet and low price..

Thanks so much for the help. We've been having bad experiences calling around this morning. The people answering the phone don't seem to know the product very well and can't understand simple questions like if it's quiet and hidden charges etc.

The rebate program ends march 31st which means you need to have the first and follow up assessments BY the 31st of March.
Bother with the rebate? Thats up to you, its only $790 you get for doing something you need to do anyway. Audit costs are abour $300+hst and are fairly similiar priced across the board.

I'm not surprised you aren't getting much on the phone, not always do people answering the phones know much about the rebates or furnace details. That's why you need to have someone come to your home so they can see what you have, what you need and put together what works for you. Believe it or not sales people aren't then enemy and can be helpful.
$3000 is a tight budget for a nice, quiet product IMO. Financing the difference in what you can afford now and what will make you happy (quiet, warranty etc) may be a smart idea. Many companies offer deferal programs or monthly payments. If the difference is $1000 or so thats next to nothing. The rebates alone are going to be $1040 or so. Borrow the extra then use the rebates to pay it off. Gets you a MUCH better furnace that way.

[janaka]

I paid $3850 for a Climate Care by York TM9V060 2-stage variable speed furnace including install and removal of the old one. In addition I paid $400 for a high density media filter and $425 for a HU-12 flow thru humidifier. The worst part is my old furnace was still running with no problems. My neighbours changed their fruance and convinced me that the rebate program was expiring soon. Now I'm reeling from the $4500 it just cost me. The upside is that this company is supposed to provide very good service....Did I pay too much as usual.:cry:

Its not always a matter of your furnace needing to be broken to make buying a new one smart. MANY times people proactively replace equipment to start to save money sooner, qualify for rebates or take advantage of current offers.

IMO your Climate Care is over priced. Did they offer a 10yr extended Manufacturer's warranty? I'd certainly hope so for that price. For CC without extended warranty that is about $450 over priced.

[furnacepower]

Its not always a matter of your furnace needing to be broken to make buying a new one smart. MANY times people proactively replace equipment to start to save money sooner, qualify for rebates or take advantage of current offers.

IMO your Climate Care is over priced. Did they offer a 10yr extended Manufacturer's warranty? I'd certainly hope so for that price. For CC without extended warranty that is about $450 over priced.

Thanks Janaka. I acknowledge that it makes perfect sense to buy a new furnace when your old one is 17yrs old and the rebate programs are about to expire. But I don't want to overpay either. For $3850 I get 10yrs parts and 1yr labour warranty. But if I buy yearly preventative maintenance (PM) from them they will warranty the labour for 10yrs also - is this normal ? I'm more miffed about the $400 I paid for the high density media filter because from what i can tell I can get a 3M high density filter at Canadian Tire for $40.......?

[janaka]

Thanks Janaka. I acknowledge that it makes perfect sense to buy a new furnace when your old one is 17yrs old and the rebate programs are about to expire. But I don't want to overpay either. For $3850 I get 10yrs parts and 1yr labour warranty. But if I buy yearly preventative maintenance (PM) from them they will warranty the labour for 10yrs also - is this normal ? I'm more miffed about the $400 I paid for the high density media filter because from what i can tell I can get a 3M high density filter at Canadian Tire for $40.......?

That is industry standard to do the maintenence to get the warranty so thats good.

$400 media filter (and cabinet) you got is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better than ANY filter available at CT. I'd assume you got a 4-5" wide pleated filter which should be MERV 10-11 rated. Night and day different than most big box stores. HD sells a honeywell MERV8 and thats basically the highest I've ever seen and the quality difference (visibly even) is night and day. Also you have to consider most times to get the media cabinets to fit they need to make different tin work modifications to have it fit, as such there is cost (material/labour) associated with that too...

[furnacepower]

That is industry standard to do the maintenence to get the warranty so thats good.

$400 media filter (and cabinet) you got is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better than ANY filter available at CT. I'd assume you got a 4-5" wide pleated filter which should be MERV 10-11 rated. Night and day different than most big box stores. HD sells a honeywell MERV8 and thats basically the highest I've ever seen and the quality difference (visibly even) is night and day. Also you have to consider most times to get the media cabinets to fit they need to make different tin work modifications to have it fit, as such there is cost (material/labour) associated with that too...

Great, Thanks Janaka. I confirmed the filter is a General MAC1400 with a gasket and has a MERV of 10 which is way better than anything at HD or CT. I feel somewhat better now.

[janaka]

Great, Thanks Janaka. I confirmed the filter is a General MAC1400 with a gasket and has a MERV of 10 which is way better than anything at HD or CT. I feel somewhat better now.

I googled it too, looks similar to the AprilAire units we use, near identical to the Carrier units too. Good unit; I'd feel good about having installed it without a doubt.

[Limoges_shopper]

Thanks Limoges…

I really hate the new return boot they've installed. I'm not a big fan of the ugly transition.
Where can I get a return boot made with turning vanes in Ottawa ? You've recommended BreezeHill last time. Do you still recommend them ?
Do they only deal with contractors only or I can show up there with the specs and they will make it ?

Thanks again for the help. It's really appreciated.

If you bring in the existing return boot, ask them to make a 90 degree full turning vane, and ask of they will spot weld it in for you.

[cami38]

i am wondering if anyone can help me. i bought a honeywell true steam humidifier last spring and had it installed by an electrician. the problem is when we went to turn it on this winter it doesn't seem to work. it powers on and if you push the drain button it fills up and then drains, but for some reason it won't fill up and work. the electrician is stumped as the water is going to the unit and like i said is filling it up when you hit drain. i believe in reading the manual over and over that it is supposed to fill up with water and when it senses the house needs hunidity it is suppposed to kick on. but it just doesn't. plus i know where is an over ride button you can press to get it to "kick" on but that isn't working either. any idea what to do? we already paid the electrician to install it and woulld prefer to do all we can before calling someone else to come in (he keeps coming back for free to try to figure it out). :o

[Possum77]

i am wondering if anyone can help me. i bought a honeywell true steam humidifier last spring and had it installed by an electrician. the problem is when we went to turn it on this winter it doesn't seem to work. it powers on and if you push the drain button it fills up and then drains, but for some reason it won't fill up and work. the electrician is stumped as the water is going to the unit and like i said is filling it up when you hit drain. i believe in reading the manual over and over that it is supposed to fill up with water and when it senses the house needs hunidity it is suppposed to kick on. but it just doesn't. plus i know where is an over ride button you can press to get it to "kick" on but that isn't working either. any idea what to do? we already paid the electrician to install it and woulld prefer to do all we can before calling someone else to come in (he keeps coming back for free to try to figure it out). :o

call Honeywell, it has 5 yr warranty.

[Kato2]

Hello,

I have a Carrier 58mvb060 and I want to install a Generalaire humidistat with a sensor. I do not have a Carrier thermostat. Where on the control panel do you find the constant 24v supply needed to operate this unit.
The rest is simple it's just trying to confirm what some of the symbols in the group of 24v terminals represent has become mystery wrapped in an enigma.

Thanks

[MadCow]

QUESTION: Fire Hazard?

I moved in to this ****** Town House, built 40 years ago. The furnace in the house is the original. This past Saturday, the motor blew out and the entire house had the smell of something burning. We called the landlord, who called a technician and they advised the Low and Medium settings of the blower were fried; however, the blower would be able to run on High. The technicial left it on High so we could have heat, but my wife and I were concerned about it being a fire hazard. Our heat is from Natural Gas, and there's an electric motor running this blower that is on it's way out.

This morning, we woke up again to the smell of burning. The motor was completely fried now.

The technician says there's no hazard, but this doesn't sound right at all. What if I wasn't home after the motor blew out?

Can you please tell me if I am correct in this hunch? The technicians were ********ting about using filters in the vents being the "worst thing you can do"... I've used filters in other houses with no issues at all. I am not confident in the competency of these technicians. Please fill me in here, or shed some light.

Thanks!

[janaka]

putting filters in the vents does cause some extra strain on the blower.
if the blower goes the furnace shouldn't fire so there's no issue there short of having no heat, this is why furnace's have safeties built into them.

[vincentvega]

Hi Vincent:

You have a problem: your high velocity system uses special ducts to handle the compressed air. A normal furnace will not be able to overcome this, and I don't know any high-v systems that have gas burners. All the onces I know of use a hydronic coil such as yours. Sorry about that!

75 Gallon tank is huge! The only reason they go with such a large tnak is because of the energy output it has. If you were on oil, a 33 Gallon oil fired water heater would be able to keep up with the house's heat loss.

Good luck. :)


Thanks for the answer - not what I wanted to hear, but good to know. Time to move!

[dsoro78]

So I ended up going with everything and big thanks to Limoge_Shopper for the advice. I'm very happy with the new system we installed (AS - Dual Stage Furnace, AS A/C, Rinnai Tankless, Steam Humidifier and Accuclean). I was worried about going tankless, but we actually find it better than our old water heater. So far no cold water sandwiches and we've never had an issue with running out of water. I've heard some nightmare stories with other brands though and we had an excellent install, which I'm sure is more than half the battle.

[Keigotw]

I have a Lenox Furnace that came with the house
last year Feb. 2010 , there was not heat, and from the LED flashing codes
the Error was " Low Flame Signal, Check Flame Sensor" . So I had HVAC guy come in and get the Flame sensor replaced under Warranty. Now Today Feb. 2011 , the Same Error message :( , So I just took the flame sensor out and sand paper clean it and put it back and is working fine now.

Question does the Flame sensor usually last 1 year only???? :(

[bririp]

The flame sensor should not be having issues yearly. Included in our regular maintenance plans is cleaning the sensor. Do not use sand paper as it leaves sand behind and it will solidify and block the sensor. This is not something we suggest "most" customers do on their own. If it is getting coated this quickly, it sounds like it may be a combustion issue, where incomplete combustion is leaving a residue on the sensor. I would call the company back and ask them to look deeper in to this.

Is it a sealed combustion unit? Is the intake pipe run from outside, or from in the basement?

[Keigotw]

The flame sensor should not be having issues yearly. Included in our regular maintenance plans is cleaning the sensor. Do not use sand paper as it leaves sand behind and it will solidify and block the sensor. This is not something we suggest "most" customers do on their own. If it is getting coated this quickly, it sounds like it may be a combustion issue, where incomplete combustion is leaving a residue on the sensor. I would call the company back and ask them to look deeper in to this.

Is it a sealed combustion unit? Is the intake pipe run from outside, or from in the basement?

unfinish basement, intake from the basement

[teeva]

Hi there. I recently moved into a 50 year old 4 level side-split. The temperatures have been more or less ok over our first 6 weeks. We installed a new thermostat and about 4 days later the temperature can’t rise about 18C. I had a furnace technician over yesterday and he said the problem is more with our ductwork design (specifically the return air) then the furnace. I suspect there are multiple issues at play. I’m hoping to get your input.

The furnace is mid-efficiency and about 15 years old. I’ve been told it is oversized several times. We hear the furnace turning on and off quite frequently. The theory is the furnace is producing too much hot air and not enough cold air is making it back into the return, and it’s short cycling. The filter has been changed frequently. There always seems to be a lot of suction when I change it.

We have one return air vent on each of the top 3 floors; all of them are mounted high on the wall. And the top and third level return air vents are in hallways and the second level has it in our open dinning room on the east side of the house. I’m told there should be return air vents in North and West facing rooms and I should also install low mounted return air vents with a louver to capture cold air in the winter. The lower floor has a floor level return air vent, which is in a small room where we had the doors closed until yesterday. I feel suction when I put my hand up to all of the return air vents, but it’s not strong.

I had the furnace and all of the ducts cleaned 3 weeks ago after we finished renovations. The cleaner noted the furnace was extremely dirty, but cleaned it up. The technician suspects that our A-coil is dirty and that would improve air flow.

My thinking is I should get an energy audit to identify the inefficiencies and look at improvements. Having said that the house is 50 years old, and the previous owners have lived in it comfortably. We’ve been fine when the weather has been much colder then it was yesterday. All the sudden we can’t get the place warm. We’re not freezing, but it’s not comfortable either. I’m not sure if the new thermostat has anything to do with it. I’ve checked the settings over several times.

Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated! Thanks.

[nighthawk26]

putting filters in the vents does cause some extra strain on the blower.
if the blower goes the furnace shouldn't fire so there's no issue there short of having no heat, this is why furnace's have safeties built into them.

It's 40 years old for god sakes. Why is this conversation even happening? Get the damn thing replaced.

There are tons of codes a gas tech must follow. If there is danger they will tag your furnace.

[TO_raptor]

I wanted to add my question similar to teeva's above. I have my main floor and second floor at 65 degrees and the basement is at 73. The heat just isn't rising up.
We had recent renovation occur and the contractor eliminated two major vents that sent return air to the furnace. What's left is one on the floor of the room upstairs on the 2nd floor and a small vent at the base of the living room floor. I am concerned that the supply isn't powerful because of that since then. Also the basement construction isn't great anyway and it was always inconsistently warmer than the rest of the house to begin with.

To add to this - the air intake for the combustion is taking it from the furnace room. I need to draw it from the outside. This is an HE furnace that is only 2 years old.

Any recommendations on achieving wins in the right sequence.

Can't type anymore my fingers are freezing... :(

[THE_click]

Hi there. I recently moved into a 50 year old 4 level side-split. The temperatures have been more or less ok over our first 6 weeks. We installed a new thermostat and about 4 days later the temperature can’t rise about 18C. I had a furnace technician over yesterday and he said the problem is more with our ductwork design (specifically the return air) then the furnace. I suspect there are multiple issues at play. I’m hoping to get your input.

The furnace is mid-efficiency and about 15 years old. I’ve been told it is oversized several times. We hear the furnace turning on and off quite frequently. The theory is the furnace is producing too much hot air and not enough cold air is making it back into the return, and it’s short cycling. The filter has been changed frequently. There always seems to be a lot of suction when I change it.

We have one return air vent on each of the top 3 floors; all of them are mounted high on the wall. And the top and third level return air vents are in hallways and the second level has it in our open dinning room on the east side of the house. I’m told there should be return air vents in North and West facing rooms and I should also install low mounted return air vents with a louver to capture cold air in the winter. The lower floor has a floor level return air vent, which is in a small room where we had the doors closed until yesterday. I feel suction when I put my hand up to all of the return air vents, but it’s not strong.

I had the furnace and all of the ducts cleaned 3 weeks ago after we finished renovations. The cleaner noted the furnace was extremely dirty, but cleaned it up.The technician suspects that our A-coil is dirty and that would improve air flow.

My thinking is I should get an energy audit to identify the inefficiencies and look at improvements.Having said that the house is 50 years old, and the previous owners have lived in it comfortably. We’ve been fine when the weather has been much colder then it was yesterday. All the sudden we can’t get the place warm. We’re not freezing, but it’s not comfortable either. I’m not sure if the new thermostat has anything to do with it. I’ve checked the settings over several times.

Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated! Thanks.

Your exactly right about your situation. Dealing with older furnaces, poor HVAC system setups..is most likely the cause. IMO, with the big Ol'e houses they used to build, the ductwork is sometimes insanely complex and frustrating. Everywhere you see a vent, whether it be HOT or COLD, it is connected someway.. somehow to the furnace area.

This means ductwork is snaking in betweens walls, floor joists.. basically everywhere there is a wall!

More bends more turns = more Air restriction ;)

I would definitely consider moving all CAR's to floor level..
as HOT air will naturally rise and COLD air will naturally.. << yeah, you said it! :razz:

Get a new furnace that is properly sized.. so you can stop the system from short cycling. I would also recommend TIN TAPING all open seams, cracks, holes ect.. in the ductwork. Your dealing with old ductwork.. there will be holes and points of air loss everwhere.. if you have the opportunity to gain efficiency with a couple rolls of tape.. do it! :)

Every little bit helps. Also, when you clean Air Ducts in an extremely dirty system, you should consider getting the furnace + A-Coil done at the same time.. starting everything off CLEAN.. will help with keep the system contaminant FREE, longer! ;)

Getting an Energy Audit will be good for your property. Unfortunately the government grants are ONLY available till March 31/11.. but I'm sure you can still have it done even if there is no money up for grabs..

[achanna]

I had my temp set to 76 F .. but it only reaches up to 73/74 F (My thermostat is in F)

It was not a problem before .. I only started noticing in the last couple of weeks.

Now I have to set it to 78 so it reaches up to 76

anyone any idea why is it happening - i changed my filter .. no luck .. its 5/6 yr old LENNOX furnace

[DrXenon]

Just an anecdote that some might find helpful:

My neighbour was complaining that her house wasn't reaching the thermostat setpoint although the weather outside wasn't that cold. After verifying that the thermostat signals were reaching the furnace, I pulled the filter to find that it was absolutely plugged with dirt/dust. I replaced the filter and that solved the problem.

So make sure you replace your filter twice a year!

I wonder if she damaged her blower motor by making it try to suck through half a centimetre of dust for at least 6 months?

[Jamie_Canuck]

Just an anecdote that some might find helpful:

My neighbour was complaining that her house wasn't reaching the thermostat setpoint although the weather outside wasn't that cold. After verifying that the thermostat signals were reaching the furnace, I pulled the filter to find that it was absolutely plugged with dirt/dust. I replaced the filter and that solved the problem.

So make sure you replace your filter twice a year!

I wonder if she damaged her blower motor by making it try to suck through half a centimetre of dust for at least 6 months?

I would add that you should spend a couple bucks on your filters... don't buy the cheapest piece of crap you can find...

[cluless]

If a newly built townhouse has central forced air, why is it that it requires for supplemental heat in way of an electric baseboard heater to be installed on the first floor (which leads out to grade level/exterior street level)?

Thank you in advance!

[THE_click]

Just an anecdote that some might find helpful:

My neighbour was complaining that her house wasn't reaching the thermostat setpoint although the weather outside wasn't that cold. After verifying that the thermostat signals were reaching the furnace, I pulled the filter to find that it was absolutely plugged with dirt/dust. I replaced the filter and that solved the problem.

So make sure you replace your filter twice a year!

I wonder if she damaged her blower motor by making it try to suck through half a centimetre of dust for at least 6 months?

That, and also turning the Heat Exchanger into an Easy Bake Oven :lol:

The Ol'e Lennox pulses were infamous for cracked Heat X's.. letting your filter get that bad was "deadly" for a few people, unfortunately. Change your filters folks!

or.. URR GONNA DIE!! * Robin Williams Gypsy Voice * ;)

[iherald]

I would add that you should spend a couple bucks on your filters... don't buy the cheapest piece of crap you can find...

When I bought my house my furnace came with one of those reusuable furnace filters. I vacuum it out (there was very little dirt on it), but how else should I clean it? It looks pretty clean to me.

[cami38]

call Honeywell, it has 5 yr warranty.

i was actually asking about the install. if there was anything possibly glaring that could be the problem. not if it was broken. i know it has a warranty, but i was thinking it was in the install.
limoges, we discussed this purchase last year. is there anything that stands out for you as possibly being the problem?

[GTT1]

Outside vents question

Our furnace air intake and exhaust are located on the side of our house that constantly gets snowed under from winds blowing the snow into drifts against the side of the house.

I am wondering what are the regulations concerning placement? The picture here shows mine and the high vent is the exhaust the lower one the intake. The intake is consistently getting covered over with snow and I need to uncover it. So far I haven't noticed any problem and the furnace seems to run fine even when I have found it covered with snow but am worried about potential problems.

Ice is forming at the bottom under both vents probably from the exhaust melting snow which then freezes. I am concerned this could under the right circumstances come up and block the intake.

I wonder if the vents should have been configured opposite to what they are with the higher being the intake and the lower the exhaust. Our water heater exhaust is at the same level as the furnace intake vent and aimed down and it keeps the snow constantly melted for a 2 ft radius around it.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/336/ventsu.jpg

[bonerhaus]

Usually the manufacturer will say your intake/exhaust needs to be at least 1 foot above snow level. The intake should be snorkeled up and out of the snow for sure. You could get another elbow and turn the exhaust down which should help the condensation drip out of the pipe instead of back inside.

Do you have any manuals for the furnace? What is the model number I'll see if I can look up the termination requirements for it.

[Munchos]

Usually the manufacturer will say your intake/exhaust needs to be at least 1 foot above snow level. The intake should be snorkeled up and out of the snow for sure. You could get another elbow and turn the exhaust down which should help the condensation drip out of the pipe instead of back inside.

Do you have any manuals for the furnace? What is the model number I'll see if I can look up the termination requirements for it.

Never-mind what is quoted. You do that and your intake will be using the bad flue gases as combustion air which will cause WAY more problems than what you are experiencing now. The venting should be at least 12" above grade or above expected snow level. The latter is very rarely ever done because everyone would complain about the looks of the outside venting. So 12" is the norm. Unfortunately, whoever installed the furnace left little or no room at all for cutting off the outside termination, which should be glued as is. I would recommend to just cut the 90 elbow for the combustion air so that is is pointing straight out from the wall. That will give you at least another 4" and you should still be a foot away from the exhaust.

[GTT1]

Never-mind what is quoted. You do that and your intake will be using the bad flue gases as combustion air which will cause WAY more problems than what you are experiencing now. The venting should be at least 12" above grade or above expected snow level. The latter is very rarely ever done because everyone would complain about the looks of the outside venting. So 12" is the norm. Unfortunately, whoever installed the furnace left little or no room at all for cutting off the outside termination, which should be glued as is. I would recommend to just cut the 90 elbow for the combustion air so that is is pointing straight out from the wall. That will give you at least another 4" and you should still be a foot away from the exhaust.

Having it come straight out is not going to do it. The snow is drifting up and above the exhaust but the heat keeps it melted but still the snow stays above the intakes top height.

Does the exhaust have to be higher than the intake or can the intake be say 3 ft up and the exhaust straight out and down. This way the snow would be constantly melted.

I am not concerned about the venting being higher on the wall. Not visible in summer as I grow tomatos in front of it.

[Munchos]

Having it come straight out is not going to do it. The snow is drifting up and above the exhaust but the heat keeps it melted but still the snow stays above the intakes top height.

Does the exhaust have to be higher than the intake or can the intake be say 3 ft up and the exhaust straight out and down. This way the snow would be constantly melted.

I am not concerned about the venting being higher on the wall. Not visible in summer as I grow tomatos in front of it.

Then the exhaust would have to be cut, coupled and extended higher up, and then have the combustion pipe terminated where the existing exhaust is now with the exhaust a foot higher. Basically they will both be snorkeled with the exhaust a foot above the intake. Just make sure the exhaust is a foot away from any doors, windows, etc.. You will have issues if the intake is above the exhaust as not only will it draw the flue gases in as combustion air, but the intake will get iced up from the warm exhaust it will be in-taking and freezing inside the pipe. Its going to be tough trying to cut the intake as they left no room at all for any modifications due to how close they cut the pipe to the wall. Make sure you also get some 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 (forget the od size of the 636 venting) so you can insulate the exposed pipe as a precautionary measure to stop any water from freezing.

This is all at your own risk and would advise you to call the installers to see if they are still in business and tell them the issue.

[bririp]

Then the exhaust would have to be cut, coupled and extended higher up, and then have the combustion pipe terminated where the existing exhaust is now with the exhaust a foot higher. Basically they will both be snorkeled with the exhaust a foot above the intake. Just make sure the exhaust is a foot away from any doors, windows, etc.. You will have issues if the intake is above the exhaust as not only will it draw the flue gases in as combustion air, but the intake will get iced up from the warm exhaust it will be in-taking and freezing inside the pipe. Its going to be tough trying to cut the intake as they left no room at all for any modifications due to how close they cut the pipe to the wall. Make sure you also get some 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 (forget the od size of the 636 venting) so you can insulate the exposed pipe as a precautionary measure to stop any water from freezing.

This is all at your own risk and would advise you to call the installers to see if they are still in business and tell them the issue.

You can't have the intake pipe facing straight out as there is no drain and any moisture from the rain/snow will go into the combustion chamber. Follow the manufacturers instructions. Having the pipes side by side is sometimes what is suggested as the exhaust will shoot straight out and rise as it is hot and the intake will pull from below. Stick with the manufacturers suggestion, it is code!

[bonerhaus]

You have to look at what the manufacturer requires. If you have to raise the intake 12" above snow level, maybe you can leave the intake straight and turn down the exhaust. Intake and exhausts exit side by side all the time and usually the exhaust has an elbow pointing down.

[bririp]

You have to look at what the manufacturer requires. If you have to raise the intake 12" above snow level, maybe you can leave the intake straight and turn down the exhaust. Intake and exhausts exit side by side all the time and usually the exhaust has an elbow pointing down.


I think you have it backwards. I have never seen an intake pipe that is supposed to be straight out. they are not designed to get any moisture in them, where the intake pipe is...

Please double check as no intake pipe should be facing anywhere other than down, and at least 12 inches above grade.

I also think people who are not sure about things like this should not post guesses as it can cause lots of damage to our fellow RFD'rs furnaces.

[bonerhaus]

That's why I said check the manufacturer specs in the installation manual. Is rain going to drive itself into a straight intake pipe? They usually have elbows on them so you have a way to attach a screen to the intake to keep unwanted critters out.



I think you have it backwards. I have never seen an intake pipe that is supposed to be straight out. they are not designed to get any moisture in them, where the intake pipe is...

Please double check as no intake pipe should be facing anywhere other than down, and at least 12 inches above grade.

I also think people who are not sure about things like this should not post guesses as it can cause lots of damage to our fellow RFD'rs furnaces.

[bririp]

That's why I said check the manufacturer specs in the installation manual. Is rain going to drive itself into a straight intake pipe? They usually have elbows on them so you have a way to attach a screen to the intake to keep unwanted critters out.

Rain on windy days can travel horizontally but the rain definately lands inside it. I will repeat that intake pipes should NEVER go straight out, only facing down.

[Samwfive]

This is one of the most callous venting I have seen with no thought given to snow drift...

To the experts...the solution is re-pipe and have the exhaust extended to 4-5' above ground and the intake with a downward facing elbow at 3 feet high?

[johntdsb]

I am starting to look into cental air for my house. My heating system is the polaris 34g hot water tank that has a pipe to a fan that almost looks like a furnace. Not sure what this type of heating system is called. Will I be able to install central air in this type of system????

[dgmorr]

Can a home air conditioning crew discharge the AC refrigerant from my car AC system?

[Gailey]

Hi,

I have just moved to the Markham area and need to find a company to take care of my HVAC equipment. I have a Lennox Whisper Heat Furnace, a Lennox Elite 11 air conditioner, a Summeraire Central Air Exchanger (never had one of these before - looks like rocket science!), and a water softener that I'd like to be rid of.

There doesn't appear to be a humidifier in the house. I'm uncertain as to whether or not one is needed in Ontario, but the hardwood is cracked, and it feels quite dry in the house.

If someone could point me in the direction of a reputable company I would be very grateful.

Many thanks.

[Happy13178]

Anyone had any issues with their Honeywell Truesteam humidifiers? I'm looking at grabbing a 6 gallon model to go into my house, wondering who's had problems and what they are.

[Possum77]

Anyone had any issues with their Honeywell Truesteam humidifiers? I'm looking at grabbing a 6 gallon model to go into my house, wondering who's had problems and what they are.

I have one.
It's a kettle really, so it consumes some electricityl, other than that it's a good idea, works like a charm, but it's only one month so far.
6 gal is for very small house.

[inhaliburton]

Hi there, I've read most of this thread and the how much did you pay thread. I have a 1100 sq foot bungalow that is about 13 years old, with cement crawl space. Furnace is a mid-Lennox.

The meter was read December 10th, bill says we used 85,409 M3.

We do run our AC a lot in summer, we dislike a warm house and humidity. So, we likely consume more than average electricity due to the fact we run it 24/7 starting well before the summer, and well into October. If nights are cool, it's turned off.

Up until today I've been mainly interested in the AS/Trane, Lennox, Carrier brands. However, the quotes have been quite high. I'm in the Belleville/Trenton area, so don't have the GRA competitive advantage.

I have a Rheem quote and wonder what your thoughts pro and con may be.

Rheem RGREM 07 EMAES, 60,000 btu, 2-stage, DC motor, digital programmable Tstat = $4438.

Rheem 13AJH-18, 1.5 ton AC = $2868. less 50% discount if purchased with the furnace = $1438.

MERV 10 filter = $300.

Total: $6172. + HST = $6974.

Any thoughts?

Thank you.

[nighthawk26]

Hi there, I've read most of this thread and the how much did you pay thread. I have a 1100 sq foot bungalow that is about 13 years old, with cement crawl space. Furnace is a mid-Lennox.

The meter was read December 10th, bill says we used 85,409 M3.

We do run our AC a lot in summer, we dislike a warm house and humidity. So, we likely consume more than average electricity due to the fact we run it 24/7 starting well before the summer, and well into October. If nights are cool, it's turned off.

Up until today I've been mainly interested in the AS/Trane, Lennox, Carrier brands. However, the quotes have been quite high. I'm in the Belleville/Trenton area, so don't have the GRA competitive advantage.

I have a Rheem quote and wonder what your thoughts pro and con may be.

Rheem RGREM 07 EMAES, 60,000 btu, 2-stage, DC motor, digital programmable Tstat = $4438.

Rheem 13AJH-18, 1.5 ton AC = $2868. less 50% discount if purchased with the furnace = $1438.

MERV 10 filter = $300.

Total: $6172. + HST = $6974.

Any thoughts?

Thank you.

Yes. Why would you buy a 13 SEER AC unit? I looked on their site and that model isn't listed, but all the ones similar with a 13 in the front are 13 SEER so lets assume that to be the case. That said ignore the 50% discount as a combo, thats a $2200 AC or so. The furnace also seems a bit high, but that said location will dictate a fair bit as well. Doesn't look like anything remotely impressive.

I assume you qualify for rebates, if so, savings aside on the AC, especially after you said you used it a lot, there are $650 in rebates you're leaving on the table.

[inhaliburton]

Thank you for your input, Nighthawk.

I see your points re the 13 seer a/c and pricing. Nothing Special.

[inhaliburton]

Are there gas furnaces and heat pump combinations available that can be programmed with information such as the current cost of natural gas, the costs of electricity during daytime when the rate is higher, and off-peak times when it's cheaper. The controller would decide which times are the most economical to use the heat pump rather than the gas furnace to supply heat?

Thank you.

[inhaliburton]

I've changed my mind about the heat pump. Not economically viable it seems.

I've got an 80% Lennox 60,000 btu furnace that's 15 years old.

To get into a 95-ish percentage efficiency gas furnace, I'm thinking that it's not worth the big bucks to get there.

What are your thoughts on upgrading to a low 90s furnace? A dc variable speed fan is mandatory.

Same with AC. We do not have central air now, but want to get a unit that's economical on electricity. It's too expensive to go nuts and get top-of-the-line 2 stage AC. What should I be considering?

I'm told I should be in the 1.5 to 2 ton range.

What should the price range be on a combined furnace and ac be?

Thanks again.

[Miguel]

Is a Carrier 58UVB any good or should i spend more money and go with a 58MVB for $500 more?

[The_dream2k]

not sure if its been answered, I went through the thread, but I already have a furnace installed, would it be better to install a Heat Pump which apparently will save me 50% on electricity or should I go with an AC? The reason I am still thinking about AC is that the Heat pump will be running all year long so probably will require more maintenance.

Tnx

[janaka]

Is a Carrier 58UVB any good or should i spend more money and go with a 58MVB for $500 more?

MVB is one of my favorite furnaces, it plus the infinity stat and a nice air cleaner is a sure fire combination for quiet, efficient equipment!

[Limoges_shopper]

Outside vents question

Our furnace air intake and exhaust are located on the side of our house that constantly gets snowed under from winds blowing the snow into drifts against the side of the house.

I am wondering what are the regulations concerning placement? The picture here shows mine and the high vent is the exhaust the lower one the intake. The intake is consistently getting covered over with snow and I need to uncover it. So far I haven't noticed any problem and the furnace seems to run fine even when I have found it covered with snow but am worried about potential problems.

Ice is forming at the bottom under both vents probably from the exhaust melting snow which then freezes. I am concerned this could under the right circumstances come up and block the intake.

I wonder if the vents should have been configured opposite to what they are with the higher being the intake and the lower the exhaust. Our water heater exhaust is at the same level as the furnace intake vent and aimed down and it keeps the snow constantly melted for a 2 ft radius around it.




Usually the manufacturer will say your intake/exhaust needs to be at least 1 foot above snow level. The intake should be snorkeled up and out of the snow for sure. You could get another elbow and turn the exhaust down which should help the condensation drip out of the pipe instead of back inside.

Do you have any manuals for the furnace? What is the model number I'll see if I can look up the termination requirements for it.


Having it come straight out is not going to do it. The snow is drifting up and above the exhaust but the heat keeps it melted but still the snow stays above the intakes top height.

Does the exhaust have to be higher than the intake or can the intake be say 3 ft up and the exhaust straight out and down. This way the snow would be constantly melted.

I am not concerned about the venting being higher on the wall. Not visible in summer as I grow tomatos in front of it.


Then the exhaust would have to be cut, coupled and extended higher up, and then have the combustion pipe terminated where the existing exhaust is now with the exhaust a foot higher. Basically they will both be snorkeled with the exhaust a foot above the intake. Just make sure the exhaust is a foot away from any doors, windows, etc.. You will have issues if the intake is above the exhaust as not only will it draw the flue gases in as combustion air, but the intake will get iced up from the warm exhaust it will be in-taking and freezing inside the pipe. Its going to be tough trying to cut the intake as they left no room at all for any modifications due to how close they cut the pipe to the wall. Make sure you also get some 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 (forget the od size of the 636 venting) so you can insulate the exposed pipe as a precautionary measure to stop any water from freezing.

This is all at your own risk and would advise you to call the installers to see if they are still in business and tell them the issue.


You can't have the intake pipe facing straight out as there is no drain and any moisture from the rain/snow will go into the combustion chamber. Follow the manufacturers instructions. Having the pipes side by side is sometimes what is suggested as the exhaust will shoot straight out and rise as it is hot and the intake will pull from below. Stick with the manufacturers suggestion, it is code!


You have to look at what the manufacturer requires. If you have to raise the intake 12" above snow level, maybe you can leave the intake straight and turn down the exhaust. Intake and exhausts exit side by side all the time and usually the exhaust has an elbow pointing down.

It's very simple - raise both intake and exhaust, as per the manufacturer's instructions. It is obvious that the installers pulled a lazy, and should come back and rectify the installation. A good way to make them do this, is to call them and ask them if they would like to come fix it now, or should you call TSSA Fuel Safety Division over to check out their installation? This typically gets the owners attention real quick, and they tend to rectify the problem quickly. BTW, tell them that you will be posting the AFTER pictures here to make sure they did the job properly (the installation instructions might require them to insulate the exhaust pipe).

Good luck!

[Limoges_shopper]

Is a Carrier 58UVB any good or should i spend more money and go with a 58MVB for $500 more?


MVB is one of my favourite furnaces, it plus the infinity stat and a nice air cleaner is a sure fire combination for quiet, efficient equipment!


I agree. The benefits outweigh the additional cost.

[Limoges_shopper]

not sure if its been answered, I went through the thread, but I already have a furnace installed, would it be better to install a Heat Pump which apparently will save me 50% on electricity or should I go with an AC? The reason I am still thinking about AC is that the Heat pump will be running all year long so probably will require more maintenance.

Tnx

I think go with a high-efficiency air conditioner over a heat pump. A heat pump will use electricity, but at certain times the electricity is so cheap, and it will be much cheaper operating your gas furnace, which does not have peak rates for fuel usage like our "Smart meters" have.
Also, heat pumps are service-prone: they break down more often than air conditioners, and are more expensive to repair (unless it's a contactor or capacitor that fails.). If your on-board control board or reversing valve fails, it can be costly to repair.

Get a high efficiency air conditioner, and spend the difference in costs on a good filtration system and/or humidification system, or and HRV/ERV - the increased comfort and cleanliness of the air will be noticed and appreciated.

[inhaliburton]

not sure if its been answered, I went through the thread, but I already have a furnace installed, would it be better to install a Heat Pump which apparently will save me 50% on electricity or should I go with an AC? The reason I am still thinking about AC is that the Heat pump will be running all year long so probably will require more maintenance.

Tnx

I considered this route, too. But from what I have learned, you'll pay about $1000 more for a heat pump instead of AC, and it's cheaper to run the furnace on gas than to extract heat via the heat pump using electricity.

Am I wrong?

[Limoges_shopper]

I have a Lenox Furnace that came with the house
last year Feb. 2010 , there was not heat, and from the LED flashing codes
the Error was " Low Flame Signal, Check Flame Sensor" . So I had HVAC guy come in and get the Flame sensor replaced under Warranty. Now Today Feb. 2011 , the Same Error message :( , So I just took the flame sensor out and sand paper clean it and put it back and is working fine now.

Question does the Flame sensor usually last 1 year only???? :(


The flame sensor should not be having issues yearly. Included in our regular maintenance plans is cleaning the sensor. Do not use sand paper as it leaves sand behind and it will solidify and block the sensor. This is not something we suggest "most" customers do on their own. If it is getting coated this quickly, it sounds like it may be a combustion issue, where incomplete combustion is leaving a residue on the sensor. I would call the company back and ask them to look deeper in to this.

Is it a sealed combustion unit? Is the intake pipe run from outside, or from in the basement?


unfinish basement, intake from the basement

I like Bririp's line of questioning. I would also look at the position of the sensor, as well as the combustion efficiency to make sure it is having a clean combustion.

[Limoges_shopper]

I considered this route, too. But from what I have learned, you'll pay about $1000 more for a heat pump instead of AC, and it's cheaper to run the furnace on gas than to extract heat via the heat pump using electricity.

Am I wrong?


Actually, you are wrong. If you have a COP of greater than 2, then you are buying you heat at a much cheaper price than a gas furnace can offer. If you are operating at a COP of 2, then you are in fact getting your heat at half the cost compared to an electric furnace.
Now look at smart meters: the cost of electricity is real low at night, and if you are already having a COP of 2, and the cost of electricity during off-peak periods is real low, then you are probably heating your house at rates that are about half of what it costs with natural gas.

The problem is two-fold:

1) the rates vary depending on the day and time of day. So you would need a controller that could enable and disable heat pump operation based on the cost of electricity

and

2) The COP of a heat pump changes when the outdoor air temperature drops to below its threshold. This means that you have to take into account he outdoor air temperature in your expected savings.

[anoopi]

I am looking for a furnace mount air cleaner. I was wondering where I could buy one so I could install it myself.


I checked this website here in scarborough, and they are rather expensive

http://www.amresupply.com/category_view/H/HB,8,1

I am just looking for something generic that takes regular sized filters. The one I have now is electronic and has those metal filters that you have to wash, but I just realized that the unit has not been working for years now.

Please help.

[Limoges_shopper]

I am looking for a furnace mount air cleaner. I was wondering where I could buy one so I could install it myself.


I checked this website here in scarborough, and they are rather expensive

http://www.amresupply.com/category_view/H/HB,8,1

I am just looking for something generic that takes regular sized filters. The one I have now is electronic and has those metal filters that you have to wash, but I just realized that the unit has not been working for years now.

Please help.

why don't you measure the inside dimensions of your existing electronic air cleaner, and find a thick pleated filter that will fit in there? Most people in your situation do that - it takes a while sometimes to find the right fit, but once you do, you have an excellent filter system, with no installation required!

[anoopi]

Maybe I'll do that. I was thinking i could put a skinny filter on a diagonal?

[Limoges_shopper]

Maybe I'll do that. I was thinking i could put a skinny filter on a diagonal?

no - do your homework and do the job right, and you'll have a much cleaner system, cleaner air, etc... The time to do a job right, is the FIRST time.

[anoopi]

no - do your homework and do the job right, and you'll have a much cleaner system, cleaner air, etc... The time to do a job right, is the FIRST time.

Ok. Thanks for the advice. You are truly helpful, and have helped a lotta people with this thread.

[Limoges_shopper]

Ok. Thanks for the advice. You are truly helpful, and have helped a lotta people with this thread.


Oh, I'm not alone on this thread: there are a lot of real helpful people here, non the least of whom is the O.P., Bririp.

But thanks! :)

[Miguel]

MVB is one of my favorite furnaces, it plus the infinity stat and a nice air cleaner is a sure fire combination for quiet, efficient equipment!

I agree. The benefits outweigh the additional cost.
So you guys think this unit is REALLY $500 better than the UVB Series? Why? Im just trying to accept the price difference. I know the UVB is still 95% efficient so it qualifies for the same rebates as the MVB. Is it because the UVB is only a 2 stage?

[janaka]

So you guys think this unit is REALLY $500 better than the UVB Series? Why? Im just trying to accept the price difference. I know the UVB is still 95% efficient so it qualifies for the same rebates as the MVB. Is it because the UVB is only a 2 stage?

MVB is the Infinity line whereas the UVB is performance line. Both are two stage but the Infinity is the superior furnace due to compatibility with infinity stat and just overall better. Take our words for it which is years of experience.

If you are buying strictly on ROI then you shouldn't even be looking at a Carrier, but if you are buying carrier the Infinity is the only furnace to purchase IMO (I've said that before on here). The UVB has nothing "special" about it that differentiates it from any other two stage in the market whereas the Infinity does.

[Miguel]

MVB is the Infinity line whereas the UVB is performance line. Both are two stage but the Infinity is the superior furnace due to compatibility with infinity stat and just overall better. Take our words for it which is years of experience.

If you are buying strictly on ROI then you shouldn't even be looking at a Carrier, but if you are buying carrier the Infinity is the only furnace to purchase IMO (I've said that before on here). The UVB has nothing "special" about it that differentiates it from any other two stage in the market whereas the Infinity does.

Thanks for your help! Does it make a difference if I run an Ecobee thermostat and not the infinity? I can't give up my Ecobee!!! love it too much.
The problem is that I have a ocnnection with a Carrier dealer and there is a rather large incentive on the UVB and not so much on the MVB. I'll go MVB if its superior and worth it... is it much quiter than the UVB? more durable? What about it makes it a leader in furnaces?

[janaka]

Thanks for your help! Does it make a difference if I run an Ecobee thermostat and not the infinity? I can't give up my Ecobee!!! love it too much.
The problem is that I have a connection with a Carrier dealer and there is a rather large incentive on the UVB and not so much on the MVB. I'll go MVB if its superior and worth it... is it much quiter than the UVB? more durable? What about it makes it a leader in furnaces?

Can you run your stat on it? Yes. Would I? Never.
What makes the MVB worth buying? The compatibility with the Infinity stat and all the features/functions that it provides. Its EXTREMELY quiet, reasonably efficient 94.1% for most sizes, DC blah blah blah. Think of its as $500 over 10years, $50/yr, $4.16/month, $1.04/week. Over the course of its life expectancy (longer than 10yrs) that $500 is miniscule.

I have ZERO to gain by you buying the more expensive furnace and I'll say it again and again that its worth the money.

[EugW]

Ouch, the 16x26x5 filter I have for my Lennox PureAir PCO16-28 costs $110 a shot, or $150+ as a kit with the UV lamps and 2nd filter. The 16x26x5 is a MERV16 filter.

I have not yet been able to source that kit cheaply, nor have I been able to find a cheaper MERV10-11 version of that kit. I'm thinking it doesn't exist.

Are alternatives simply not available? BTW, a 16x25x5 doesn't fit properly, since my 16x26x5 is actually 16 3/8" tall. To make it fit vertically I'd have to shim it, but it's still not wide enough horizontally.

Do these filters really last a year? That's the claim. I'm thinking 6 months would be more realistic for the filter, but the UV lamps could last a year or more.

[supergenius]

So my 17 year old HEIL furnace is leaking CO (>100ppm at furnace) so it was tagged and shut off. Got a few quotes for replacement. I'm leaning towards a York YP9c 80,000 btu unit which was quoted at $3990 + hst installed from a very reputable HVAC company in the area (in business since 1924 and recommended by several people). The price includes running a new intake pipe and replacing the existing exhaust which is the old black pipe. Warranty is 10 years parts and labour (lifetime on heat exchanger). The other unit I am considering is the Carrier Infinity ICS which was quoted at $400 more. Based on my research so far, it seems the HVAC pros really like the true modulation of the york over the carrier. Which unit would you guys pick?

[inhaliburton]

Actually, you are wrong. If you have a COP of greater than 2, then you are buying you heat at a much cheaper price than a gas furnace can offer. If you are operating at a COP of 2, then you are in fact getting your heat at half the cost compared to an electric furnace.
Now look at smart meters: the cost of electricity is real low at night, and if you are already having a COP of 2, and the cost of electricity during off-peak periods is real low, then you are probably heating your house at rates that are about half of what it costs with natural gas.

The problem is two-fold:

1) the rates vary depending on the day and time of day. So you would need a controller that could enable and disable heat pump operation based on the cost of electricity

and

2) The COP of a heat pump changes when the outdoor air temperature drops to below its threshold. This means that you have to take into account he outdoor air temperature in your expected savings.

Hello Limoges_shopper, thank you very much for your reply. I greatly appreciate your advice.

I apologize for my ignorance on this subject, can you tell me/us what COP stands for?

Thank you.

[boredstudent3]

I apologize for my ignorance on this subject, can you tell me/us what COP stands for?


COP = coefficient of performance

i'm a mechanical engineer and i work for a consulting firm. :)

[koffey]

Hi OP or anyone that can help.

I have a bit of an issue with my furnace. First, a little history lesson. The furnace is about 20years old now. I believe it is armstrong, but model and stuff is hard to find. So, it was upon a time a standing pilot. The people that used to own my home installed a intermittent pilot light system. So, back in November, I had to clean the spark electrode and the flame sensor because the furnace would just not light, but the pilot light was on.

This morning, the temp in the house dropped 6degrees below temp on the thermostat. I set the thermo below the current temp in the house, and set the stat to call for heat. I can hear the stat making the request but I no longer hear the click sound from the furnace. I shutdown the power to the furnace and back on to see if the ignition system would engage, but nothing. I used to do this when troubleshooting back in November.

So, now, I'm not sure what I can do. The pilot light is not coming on. I don't know how to test spark electrode, or if this is the problem. I don't know if it is the control module. Any ideas on what could be the issue? I'm not sure if I can actually fix this myself as well, but if I did attempt, where could I even obtain these parts? The only good thing out of this, is the warm temp. This weekend it is going to get cooler and there is many weeks left of winter... Since it is a long weekend, if I have to call service, it will cost me more $ then I can afford right now.

My family needs you RDFers!

PS. I live in Etobicoke.

[Limoges_shopper]

Hi OP or anyone that can help.

I have a bit of an issue with my furnace. First, a little history lesson. The furnace is about 20years old now. I believe it is armstrong, but model and stuff is hard to find. So, it was upon a time a standing pilot. The people that used to own my home installed a intermittent pilot light system. So, back in November, I had to clean the spark electrode and the flame sensor because the furnace would just not light, but the pilot light was on.

This morning, the temp in the house dropped 6degrees below temp on the thermostat. I set the thermo below the current temp in the house, and set the stat to call for heat. I can hear the stat making the request but I no longer hear the click sound from the furnace. I shutdown the power to the furnace and back on to see if the ignition system would engage, but nothing. I used to do this when troubleshooting back in November.

So, now, I'm not sure what I can do. The pilot light is not coming on. I don't know how to test spark electrode, or if this is the problem. I don't know if it is the control module. Any ideas on what could be the issue? I'm not sure if I can actually fix this myself as well, but if I did attempt, where could I even obtain these parts? The only good thing out of this, is the warm temp. This weekend it is going to get cooler and there is many weeks left of winter... Since it is a long weekend, if I have to call service, it will cost me more $ then I can afford right now.

My family needs you RDFers!

PS. I live in Etobicoke.

The first thing that comes to mind is this: you have a 2-year old piece of crap furnace! It was a piece of crap that day it came off the assembly line.
The second thing that comes to mind is this: it has a pilot light, and the provincial incentives end March 31st...

Don't try and fix something that is going to cost you repairs + excess fuel usage + excess electrical usage + lost provincial incentives...

You can get a new furnace installed on Tuesday, and be saving money this year.
A note on safety: you will never find any of the technicians (worth their weight in salt) that post here to assist a homeowner with repairing their gas appliance - it is just too risky, and if you're not certified, you should not be touching this appliance. And in reality, you are putting not only yourself as risk, but the occupants of your house, and potentially your neighbours too.

[Limoges_shopper]

Hello Limoges_shopper, thank you very much for your reply. I greatly appreciate your advice.

I apologize for my ignorance on this subject, can you tell me/us what COP stands for?

Thank you.


COP = coefficient of performance

i'm a mechanical engineer and i work for a consulting firm. :)

To further explain this, it is a comparison between the amount of heat extracted from a system to the amount of electricity it consumes. Electrical resistant heat (i.e. regular heating element) are considered as having a COP of 1. So that is the base line. Any time a heat pump that is operating at a COP of above 1, it will be using less electricity than an electrical furnace. When you have natural gas as your back-up heat, then you look at 2 variables: the cost of electricity and the cost of natural gas. So you will then have to see what a unit of heat costs you during peak hours and during off-peak hours, and compare it to the cost of the unit of heat generated by natural gas. You might find that operating your heat pump with low COP's during off-peak hours is in fact cheaper than using a gas furnace. The issue becomes one of capacity, because as the COP drops (with the temperature of the outside air), the overall capacity of the heat pump drops too. There are just too may variables to maximize your heat pump's energy usage to justify the added costs of purchasing and maintaining it.

[Olbi]

Hi,

I have 8-year old Lennox 90UGF furnace (the full model number is 90UGF-A2-50-6) and I noticed that the induced combustion draft air blower started to "whistle" slightly. I guess that the bearing(s) are going bad, but this is just a guess.

My question is: what can I do and how much, approximately of course, the repair will cost.

Thank you!

[Limoges_shopper]

Hi,

I have 8-year old Lennox 90UGF furnace (the full model number is 90UGF-A2-50-6) and I noticed that the induced combustion draft air blower started to "whistle" slightly. I guess that the bearing(s) are going bad, but this is just a guess.

My question is: what can I do and how much, approximately of course, the repair will cost.

Thank you!

You might be in luck: contact Lennox with the installation date of your furnace along with the model and serial number: you just might be in luck, as most furnaces have a 10 year parts warranty. You would then only have to pay for the labour to install it. Contact your local Lennox dealers and see which one will charge you the least to "replace the ventor assembly".

Now, you might be lucky, and the sound you are hearing is a result of dirt build-up in the ventor's blower section: a quick cleaning could solve this problem. Care must be taken when disassembling this part because there is typically a paper gasket that can be torn. If this is the case, you will need to replace the gasket. However, I will NEVER advise a non-certified individual to work on their gas appliance: too risky just to save a few bucks.

[Olbi]

Thanks Limoges_shopper for your reply!

I forgot to mention that the whole blower assembly gets hot after some time. This is not normal, isn't it? Is this an indication that the bearing is worn out?

Thanks!

[Edit] I'll call Lennox to find out whether the blower is still under warranty.

[Limoges_shopper]

Thanks Limoges_shopper for your reply!

I forgot to mention that the whole blower assembly gets hot after some time. This is not normal, isn't it? Is this an indication that the bearing is worn out?

Thanks!

[Edit] I'll call Lennox to find out whether the blower is still under warranty.

Well, the term "hot" is relative, right? Too hot is what we want to know, and that can only be determined by the blower manufacturer. And that is only under certain ambient conditions (air temperature and humidity level in furnace room). It also has to do with outdoor air, if your furnace does not have a separate compartment for the combustion chamber. Furnaces like the Goodman models, have an open combustion chamber that shares the space with the ventor blower assembly - this means that combustion air comes directly into contact with this assembly, and has its own issues (cold air, for example).

The fact remains that a trained technician should look at this. It does not have to be a Lennox dealer, but it is preferable since they can process warranty claims on your behalf. Plus, if you are not their client, it is a chance for them to showcase their company to you. Talk to the owner or service manager, express your concerns, and tell them you are looking for a "regular furnace guy", one that you can "depend on", and that will "not charge you an arm and a leg" or service. Get them to commit to a labour rate, and to be specific about what times and days they apply to, etc... Then call the next company on the list. Once you have 3 or 4, make your mind up.

But ask the important questions, like "how many steps do your technicians take when maintaining my furnace"? Or "What is your emergency service labour rate? "Do you charge for travel"? "Are you registered with the BBB?" Look up their rating on the local BBB site. Ask about how their night-time communications are set up for emergency Winter service (are the calls automatically forwarded to the on-call technician, or do they employ a messaging service that keeps trying to reach the technician until they are successful. "What is the expected response time?", etc... "How many technicians do you have"? (Remember this number when it comes time to book a service call: if the person says 8, but when it comes time to book, they only have 2 or 3 available, then you should start questioning the honesty of the company.
Because in reality, you are picking a team that you are supposed to be able to rely on. You want to have that warm and fuzzy feeling. You want to know that when you are on vacation, and your furnace craps out, that your home will be taken care of, and you won't be taken to the cleaners. So ask the questions; do your research, compare notes, and be objective in your selection.

Good luck!

[Olbi]

Thanks again Limoges_shopper! Thank you for your detailed post and the advices!

Called Lennox and I was told that the blower motor has 1 year warranty!?

I'll call around for a licensed contractor to do the work. Any idea how much the draft motor assembly is and what is a normal rate to change it (approx., of course)? I'm in the Toronto area.

Thanks!

[Limoges_shopper]

Thanks again Limoges_shopper! Thank you for your detailed post and the advices!

Called Lennox and I was told that the blower motor has 1 year warranty!?

I'll call around for a licensed contractor to do the work. Any idea how much the draft motor assembly is and what is a normal rate to change it (approx., of course)? I'm in the Toronto area.

Thanks!
1 year only? That doesn't sound right. Maybe it's a builder model furnace... The builders want to reduce the cost of the house so much, they get models that have less warranty on them, and thus cost less. They still sell the house for $400K, but the furnace they get for peanuts.

[Olbi]

The furnace was installed when the house was build, so it is quite possible that it is a builder's model. I'll check all the papers I have at home, just to be sure what the warranty is/was.

[brothernoble]

I've got an Airmax 50 attached to my hot water heater for my central heating in my 2 story condo. It is located under the stairs on my main floor.Basically only a sheet of drywall separates it from my main living area.

IT IS VERY LOUD.

Any recommendations on someone who could soundproof the small mech. room and adjust the airmax unit (Possibly turn the fan down?)

Here is the unit:
http://www.hvacforlife.com/hi_velocity_airmax.html

[bluelight11]

Hello,

I am in the market for a A/C for a 2700 sq ft house. I am planning to install ERV later and I am looking for a quite unit at around 15 seer.

I have looking into Carrier Performance series, Amana and Trane.

Just wonder what would be a good model for around 4K?

Thx

[EugW]

I have a new furnace and some new ductwork that in combination with the new basement insulation, works well to even out the temperature in my house if the duct dampers are set correctly. However, depending on the circumstance, it still may be a degree or two cooler in the basement than the main floor, esp. if someone opens the side door to the basement. That's a big improvement actually (since the basement wasn't properly insulated before) but not perfect.

I roughed in 240V lines in anticipation of this, and because the in-laws and relatives that will be using the basement bedrooms like it warmer than we do in the house. We might have main floor of the house set at 19 or 20, but the elderly relatives might prefer 21 or so. If it's 18 in the basement, then they could use the electric heater to raise it up to 20-21. Plus we sometimes run a wood fireplace in the living room, warming up the main floor thermostat. Thus, the thermostat shuts off the furnace, causing the basement to be even cooler, often by a couple more degrees.

I have two bedrooms in the basement, one 10x11 feet by 6.75 feet high, and the other 9x9.5 feet by 6.75 feet high. Both have rather large (42"? windows) that can open to the outside but which are modern well sealed windows. Insulation is R12 rigid foam, with Dri-core (plus hardwood) on the floor.

I originally bought a 1000 Watt and a 750 Watt electric baseboard heater for those bedrooms, respectively. However, in retrospect I think they're probably a bit too large (although we haven't installed them yet to try them). The wall thermostats we wired in can regulate the wattages to 25%/50%/75%/100% I believe, but I'd rather the heaters be properly sized than oversized. Plus in the smaller bedroom the 39" length of the 750 Watt heater makes bed placement a bit more of a hassle.

I'm thinking of downsizing to 750 Watt and 500 Watt heaters respectively. I'm using these calculations:

Bedroom A: 11x10 x 5 Watts per sq. foot = 550 Watts --> 750 Watt heater.
Bedroom B: 9x9.5 x 5 Watts per sq. foot = 428 Watts --> 500 Watt heater.

I chose 5 Watts per sq. foot because these heaters aren't the primary heat source, I have R12 insulation, the ceiling is a bit low, and there is no heat loss through the ceiling (since the ceiling is the main floor). Whaddya think of my calculations?

(If I had no heat source in the basement except these electrical heaters, I might have gone with 1250 and 1000 Watts instead. I do know that when I had no insulation down there in the bigger room, a 1500 Watt portable oil-filled heater would still heat up the larger room easily.)

[inhaliburton]

Thank you, Limoges_shopper, for your very intelligent and understandable explanation. After reading your reply, it is the last sentence that made up my mind whether to consider a heat pump, which costs approximately 1000 to 1200 dollar more than an air conditioner.

Quote: There are just too may variables to maximize your heat pump's energy usage to justify the added costs of purchasing and maintaining it.

No one that I have talked to thus far is able to answer the question whether there are times when heating with a heat pump is cheaper than burning natural gas. Even these smart controllers apparently cannot be programmed to figure it out. And that's exactly what is required to do so with all of the variable that you mentioned, namely a COMPUTER. In time it will come, but not yet from what I've been able to discover.

Thanks again to you, and others on this thread, for your valuable help.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


To further explain this, it is a comparison between the amount of heat extracted from a system to the amount of electricity it consumes. Electrical resistant heat (i.e. regular heating element) are considered as having a COP of 1. So that is the base line. Any time a heat pump that is operating at a COP of above 1, it will be using less electricity than an electrical furnace. When you have natural gas as your back-up heat, then you look at 2 variables: the cost of electricity and the cost of natural gas. So you will then have to see what a unit of heat costs you during peak hours and during off-peak hours, and compare it to the cost of the unit of heat generated by natural gas. You might find that operating your heat pump with low COP's during off-peak hours is in fact cheaper than using a gas furnace. The issue becomes one of capacity, because as the COP drops (with the temperature of the outside air), the overall capacity of the heat pump drops too. There are just too may variables to maximize your heat pump's energy usage to justify the added costs of purchasing and maintaining it.

[Infamous-D]

Hey,

Furnace died tonight as did our central air at the end of the summer. I am now in the market for a new furnace and ac asap. I am in the GTA. How long do you think it will take to get one installed???

Also, how much money am I looking at for an 1800 square foot house for both installed??

Direct Energy will be here in the morning for a quote.

[janaka]

Hey,

Furnace died tonight as did our central air at the end of the summer. I am now in the market for a new furnace and ac asap. I am in the GTA. How long do you think it will take to get one installed???

Also, how much money am I looking at for an 1800 square foot house for both installed??

Direct Energy will be here in the morning for a quote.

direct will be the most expensive out there. call others to come in as well as call to book and energy assessment so you can get in on the rebates ASAP!
a full install will take a full day for a system.
Expect to pay $6-8k depending on the quality you want

[sam123]

Woke up this morning at 3. Smell in the house, not gas and furnace not working, but humming. Shut it off. Took air filter out, very dirty and flipped the switch. Furnace started working for 20 min. and quit, hummed. Lennox wisperheat.

[Olbi]

Check your status lights. Somewhere on the furnace you should have a list of codes explaining the status.

[lshapiro]

Hi

I have a 1100 sq. ft. Condo townhouse with a water heater that also provides the heating for the condo townhouse.

I believe its called a Combi Unit.

Right now the unit we have is 20 years + and it only allows for a 7 minute shower before the hot water runs out from a 50 gallon tank.

We are looking to replace it as some of our neighbours units have started to leak and we want to try to get the home energy credit.

I have been calling around and I have been getting quotes of $5,000+.

Is that reasonable?

and would you be able to recommend a good contractor to install it.

Thank you

[ur_too_crazy]

Let me start by stating that I am absolutely clueless when it comes to HVAC (Besides knowing how to work my thermostat and changing the furnace filter every few months) I own a 3 year old home with a heat pump (installed by the builder). By deduction I figured that whenever the system was heating (or cooling in the summer) the heat pump's fan would spin indicating it was working (maybe I'm wrong). The last few days I have noticed no fan activity from the heat pump (house is still warm and comfortable) whereas my neighbor's seems to be spinning non stop. The temperature the last few days has been in the -8 C to -10C range. Today is a little warmer at -5. Should this thing be spinning or is all my heat coming from the furnace. Just wanted to chime in here before I call up the builder and make an a$$ of myself.

[Pesho]

Hi all,

I'm looking for reliable contractor to do a small repair on our Lennox furnace. I looked around I would like to get feedback for Aire One in Markham and Air Flex in Markham/Richmond Hill (I'm in Richmond Hill). Anyone dealt with them? Positive/negative feedback?

Thank you!

P.S. It is not an urgent repair.

P.P.S. I posted also in the AC thread, but I guess this is the right thread.

[Limoges_shopper]

I have a new furnace and some new ductwork that in combination with the new basement insulation, works well to even out the temperature in my house if the duct dampers are set correctly. However, depending on the circumstance, it still may be a degree or two cooler in the basement than the main floor, esp. if someone opens the side door to the basement. That's a big improvement actually (since the basement wasn't properly insulated before) but not perfect.

I roughed in 240V lines in anticipation of this, and because the in-laws and relatives that will be using the basement bedrooms like it warmer than we do in the house. We might have main floor of the house set at 19 or 20, but the elderly relatives might prefer 21 or so. If it's 18 in the basement, then they could use the electric heater to raise it up to 20-21. Plus we sometimes run a wood fireplace in the living room, warming up the main floor thermostat. Thus, the thermostat shuts off the furnace, causing the basement to be even cooler, often by a couple more degrees.

I have two bedrooms in the basement, one 10x11 feet by 6.75 feet high, and the other 9x9.5 feet by 6.75 feet high. Both have rather large (42"? windows) that can open to the outside but which are modern well sealed windows. Insulation is R12 rigid foam, with Dri-core (plus hardwood) on the floor.

I originally bought a 1000 Watt and a 750 Watt electric baseboard heater for those bedrooms, respectively. However, in retrospect I think they're probably a bit too large (although we haven't installed them yet to try them). The wall thermostats we wired in can regulate the wattages to 25%/50%/75%/100% I believe, but I'd rather the heaters be properly sized than oversized. Plus in the smaller bedroom the 39" length of the 750 Watt heater makes bed placement a bit more of a hassle.

I'm thinking of downsizing to 750 Watt and 500 Watt heaters respectively. I'm using these calculations:

Bedroom A: 11x10 x 5 Watts per sq. foot = 550 Watts --> 750 Watt heater.
Bedroom B: 9x9.5 x 5 Watts per sq. foot = 428 Watts --> 500 Watt heater.

I chose 5 Watts per sq. foot because these heaters aren't the primary heat source, I have R12 insulation, the ceiling is a bit low, and there is no heat loss through the ceiling (since the ceiling is the main floor). Whaddya think of my calculations?

(If I had no heat source in the basement except these electrical heaters, I might have gone with 1250 and 1000 Watts instead. I do know that when I had no insulation down there in the bigger room, a 1500 Watt portable oil-filled heater would still heat up the larger room easily.)

Shoot from the hip calculations like that do not make sense, but your wattages are not an issue. I would be more concerned with return air than over sizing the radiators - especially since you are only using them when guests are there.

So go with what you chose, since it is way overkill anyway.

[Limoges_shopper]

Woke up this morning at 3. Smell in the house, not gas and furnace not working, but humming. Shut it off. Took air filter out, very dirty and flipped the switch. Furnace started working for 20 min. and quit, hummed. Lennox wisperheat.


Check your status lights. Somewhere on the furnace you should have a list of codes explaining the status.

Sounds to me that your filter caused your furnace to overheat, and go into lockout. Once you removed the filter, you allowed it to operate with enough airflow, but the device that protects your furnace from overheating needs to be replaced. Once they are tripped off even once, they need to be replaced because the trip off temperature gets lower every time.
This is not a do-it-yourself operation, but replacing your filter on a regular basis is. Just like getting your oil changed. I would have the heat exchanger examined just to be safe - get a furnace cleaning at the same time since it is most probably contaminated with dust now.

[Limoges_shopper]

Let me start by stating that I am absolutely clueless when it comes to HVAC (Besides knowing how to work my thermostat and changing the furnace filter every few months) I own a 3 year old home with a heat pump (installed by the builder). By deduction I figured that whenever the system was heating (or cooling in the summer) the heat pump's fan would spin indicating it was working (maybe I'm wrong). The last few days I have noticed no fan activity from the heat pump (house is still warm and comfortable) whereas my neighbour's seems to be spinning non stop. The temperature the last few days has been in the -8 C to -10C range. Today is a little warmer at -5. Should this thing be spinning or is all my heat coming from the furnace. Just wanted to chime in here before I call up the builder and make an a$$ of myself.


Your observations appear to be quite good: if you and your neighbour have the same type of heating system (in this case a heat pump), then your heat pump is most likely not operating, and what is heating your house is your electrical back-up. I am not sure who you should call (is it still under warranty?), but with the cost of electricity these days, I would not let this slide too long.

[Limoges_shopper]

Hi all,

I'm looking for reliable contractor to do a small repair on our Lennox furnace. I looked around I would like to get feedback for Aire One in Markham and Air Flex in Markham/Richmond Hill (I'm in Richmond Hill). Anyone dealt with them? Positive/negative feedback?

Thank you!

P.S. It is not an urgent repair.

P.P.S. I posted also in the AC thread, but I guess this is the right thread.


Hey Pesho,

There really is no perfect thread for what you are looking for, but we will be glad to help you out. I sent you a pm. :)

[zzricezz]

I started to notice some of hardwood are cracking and from reading up it might be the RH in my house. I got a reader today and it said on my main floor it is at 27%. Which is low cause my hardwood supplier said the RH should be at 40-60% to ensure the hardwood doesn't get cracks. I got a honeywell humidifier installed with my furnace and I set the dial to 50%, previously it was 30% cause I was following the recommending outside temperature setting. Should I up the RH dial setting to 60%?

[Woldemar]

Question for the experts: What capacity furnace and AC should I get for 1400 sq.feet house (45 year old, two-storey+basement, solid masonry, windows face East and West only)?

So far I got two opinions:1.5t or 2.0t for AC, and 45,000 BTU and 75,000 BTU for a furnace (both Goodman or Amana and there are no other capacity options in between).

I know that getting too powerful AC can result in higher than needed humidity. Any negatives if I err on the bigger capacity for the furnace?

Thank you.

[Miguel]

Thanks to this thread I have a Carrier MVC series furnace being installed this coming weekend. Question, the current 80% efficient furnace vents out through the chimney, I heard the new carrier will require 2 2" holes, an intake an exhaust to be drilled through the wall. This poses a problem since the furnace is in the basement, thus I'd have to dig down about 4 feet. Can I not just run the lines in the chimney?

[janaka]

they willput the holes above the foundation and in most cases it is fine. most installers are still avoiding vertical runs up abandoned chimney's unless its the last resort.

[Miguel]

they willput the holes above the foundation and in most cases it is fine. most installers are still avoiding vertical runs up abandoned chimney's unless its the last resort.
Isnt it better to re-use the chimney instead of putting 2 new holes through the wall? I only ask because the furnace intake/exhaust would face the backyard and be located at/near the intake/exhaust for my tankless.... so I'd end up with 4 white pipes all coming up from the ground spanning a 10 foot linear distance in the backyard... kind of a blemish. So why not reuse the chimney? Is it a chore doing the work?

[Limoges_shopper]

Question for the experts: What capacity furnace and AC should I get for 1400 sq.feet house (45 year old, two-storey+basement, solid masonry, windows face East and West only)?

So far I got two opinions:1.5t or 2.0t for AC, and 45,000 BTU and 75,000 BTU for a furnace (both Goodman or Amana and there are no other capacity options in between).

I know that getting too powerful AC can result in higher than needed humidity. Any negatives if I err on the bigger capacity for the furnace?

Thank you.
Wow: you went to the bottom of the barrel for your pricing...

To answer your capacity questions: I would NEVER put a 1.5 ton in a 1400 square foot house - ever! Maybe if you were a middle unit in a townhouse, and even then I lean towards 2 tons. You could do a heat gain on the house, include ventilation and air leakage as well as internal heat gains, but at the end of the day it boils down to this: the price difference between the two is negligible, and you will not get into dehumidification issues with a 2 ton over a 1,5 ton, especially in a 1,400 square foot home. Exception to the rule: if your house is made out of ICF, or some R2000, or something engineered for energy efficiency, then yes, I might lean towards the 1,5 ton. But I would want to see the calculations first.

As far as the furnace goes, you are probably OK with the 45 MBH model, but i would want to see a heat loss done on your building first. Go with a multi-stage furnace, or modulating if you go with a quality brand. The oversizing concern is not a big deal: the OBC (Onterio Building Code) allows us to oversize by 40% the house's heat loss. You can really appreciate the extra capacity, especially when a blast of cold air comes into the house (ex: open door).

I would look at other brands, though. Get an idea what real quality can do for you - there is a tangible benefit to going to a safer piece of equipment than a Goodman/Amana.

[Limoges_shopper]

I started to notice some of hardwood are cracking and from reading up it might be the RH in my house. I got a reader today and it said on my main floor it is at 27%. Which is low cause my hardwood supplier said the RH should be at 40-60% to ensure the hardwood doesn't get cracks. I got a honeywell humidifier installed with my furnace and I set the dial to 50%, previously it was 30% cause I was following the recommending outside temperature setting. Should I up the RH dial setting to 60%?

I think you should see if you can get to 50% first. If you can't get to a certain level, turning up the dial will not make it happen. The control for the humidifier is an on/off control. Then if you have at least 40%, then you are good. I would then look at my windows, and the condensation on them, and use 405 as my minimum setting. So whatever the chart says you should be at for humidity, never go below 40%. Raising it to 60% does not make sense to me, as it uses more water for no appreciable benefit.
If your humidifier can't raise it above 40%, then I would look into the model or installation: something is not right there.

[Limoges_shopper]

Isnt it better to re-use the chimney instead of putting 2 new holes through the wall? I only ask because the furnace intake/exhaust would face the backyard and be located at/near the intake/exhaust for my tankless.... so I'd end up with 4 white pipes all coming up from the ground spanning a 10 foot linear distance in the backyard... kind of a blemish. So why not reuse the chimney? Is it a chore doing the work?

Your salesman dropped the ball here. He/she should have told you exactly where your pipes will be. The pipes terminate just outside the wall. They do not need to go up after they penetrate your wall.

It should look something like this:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_lrJilR3VZdY/S2BW0MEJ1NI/AAAAAAAAA20/tK9uomjEHQ0/s640/DSCF4288.JPG

Pay attention to how they seal around the pipes. If you are unsure, post your picture in the appropriate thread, and we will advise you if it is up to industry norms: http://forums.redflagdeals.com/post-your-hvac-equipment-pictures-here-846288/

[ur_too_crazy]

Your observations appear to be quite good: if you and your neighbour have the same type of heating system (in this case a heat pump), then your heat pump is most likely not operating, and what is heating your house is your electrical back-up. I am not sure who you should call (is it still under warranty?), but with the cost of electricity these days, I would not let this slide too long.
Thanks for the reply. I ended up calling the builder, who referred me to the installer who referred me to a technician. The technician found a defective low pressure switch which he replaced. He told my wife he could replace it an easy way (from outside ?) or take everything apart which would be more labor intensive thus more expensive. Wife chose the easy way. Needless to say (after a 280$ charge)the heat pump still did not operate for two days (except for when I reset the system as per his instructions) After pulling teeth he came back today and replaced the switch again with a 5 PSI (he had previously installed a 25 PSI). System seems to work fine for the moment. The only thing he told me was that I would have to manually turn off the heat pump when the temperature drops below -12 C. Never heard of anybody doing this. Can't see myself going down to the basement on a cold night to flick the breaker off. He said I can have a special outdoor thermostat installed which will do it for me (300$). Any ideas.

[Limoges_shopper]

Thanks for the reply. I ended up calling the builder, who referred me to the installer who referred me to a technician. The technician found a defective low pressure switch which he replaced. He told my wife he could replace it an easy way (from outside ?) or take everything apart which would be more labor intensive thus more expensive. Wife chose the easy way. Needless to say (after a 280$ charge)the heat pump still did not operate for two days (except for when I reset the system as per his instructions) After pulling teeth he came back today and replaced the switch again with a 5 PSI (he had previously installed a 25 PSI). System seems to work fine for the moment. The only thing he told me was that I would have to manually turn off the heat pump when the temperature drops below -12 C. Never heard of anybody doing this. Can't see myself going down to the basement on a cold night to flick the breaker off. He said I can have a special outdoor thermostat installed which will do it for me (300$). Any ideas.

Yeah: someone is taking you to the cleaners. Either the builder when he got a heat pump that didn't have the outdoor thermostat or the contractor in doing sub par workmanship.

[Miguel]

Your salesman dropped the ball here. He/she should have told you exactly where your pipes will be. The pipes terminate just outside the wall. They do not need to go up after they penetrate your wall.

It should look something like this:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_lrJilR3VZdY/S2BW0MEJ1NI/AAAAAAAAA20/tK9uomjEHQ0/s640/DSCF4288.JPG

Pay attention to how they seal around the pipes. If you are unsure, post your picture in the appropriate thread, and we will advise you if it is up to industry norms: http://forums.redflagdeals.com/post-your-hvac-equipment-pictures-here-846288/

I only WISH it was that easy :/
Where those pipes are coming out through the wall there would be considered main floor/1st floor at my house. My furnace is in the basement which is below ground level. For me to terminate like that, I'd have to go through the main floor floor joist, into a bedroom on the main floor and then 90 degree out. I cant do that because then I'd have to build an awkward box in the master bedroom.

Here's the install manual:
http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/58mvc-5si.pdf

The problem I see is that no where in the manual do I see any instructions on how deep I have to dig to 90 out from the wall and 90 up and out.

[crzyclimber]

Hi Miguel,

I'm looking at replacing my furnace humidifier. I am considering the following two furnace humidifiers from Desert Springs.

How is the desert springs pulsed flow through
http://www.desertspringproducts.com/desertspring/humidifiers_pulsed.asp
I can get it installed for $200 taxes included.

How does this compare to the Desert Springs rotary disc DS3200
http://www.desertspringproducts.com/desertspring/humidifiers_rotary.asp
I can purchase this for $232 plus tax and have to install it myself.

Is there any other that you would recommend?

Thanks for your assistance.

[ur_too_crazy]

Yeah: someone is taking you to the cleaners. Either the builder when he got a heat pump that didn't have the outdoor thermostat or the contractor in doing sub par workmanship.

Yup cleaners for sure (although cleaners don't charge anywhere as much as these HVAC techs). I've seen thermostats with outdoor temperature sensors. Are there any that I could program to use AUX heat only below a certain temperature bypassing the heat pump. I assume with the tech installing a 5 PSI low pressure switch, the heat pump thing will run at any temperature no matter how cold.

[anoopi]

Hey, I have a navien Tankless Cr 210. Around 2 months old. Temp set to 115 F.

I have noticed that when I turn on the hot water, the water becomes really hot. I.E to the 115 F that it is set at. But if I were to turn on the hot water just two minutes after, the water doesn't get as hot. Is there a reason for this?

I found this out when I washed my hands first, then brushed my teeth and then turned on the hot water after brushing.

Also, should I put a window screen mesh around the opening of the vent outside? Because I heard that the internal filter gets clogged quite often.

Any ideas?

[Limoges_shopper]

Hey, I have a navien Tankless Cr 210. Around 2 months old. Temp set to 115 F.

I have noticed that when I turn on the hot water, the water becomes really hot. I.E to the 115 F that it is set at. But if I were to turn on the hot water just two minutes after, the water doesn't get as hot. Is there a reason for this?

I found this out when I washed my hands first, then brushed my teeth and then turned on the hot water after brushing.

Also, should I put a window screen mesh around the opening of the vent outside? Because I heard that the internal filter gets clogged quite often.

Any ideas?

It all depends on total flow through the water heater - if the flow is too low, then you will not trigger the flow sensor in the water heater (trips at a minimum flow, relative to the minimum burner modulation so you don't create steam). This might be where you want to look at, since you have not mentioned anything about this happening in a shower.


As for placing mosquito mesh over the vent terminations: DO NOT DO THIS! NEVER MODIFY THE VENTING OR THE EQUIPMENT OF A GAS APPLIANCE!!!!! >:(
Messing around with a gas appliance without understanding the consequences can get you and your family killed. In this case, you will end up starving the combustion chamber of air, which will result in carbon build-up, and lower flame temperature, and possible flame failure once the screen gets clogged up. In this case, you file this one under no good deed goes unpunished: never touch a gas appliance beyond what is instructed in the owner's manual.

[gravymaker]

Hi Folks - first off, amazing thread - I've read through most of it with great interest and learned a lot.

Based on some of the feedback here, I've gotten 3 quotes on the following units. All quotes are for a replacement of an existing 2T Rheem A/C. My furnace is a Rheem 90 Classic, which I was hoping not to have to replace at this time. Furnace is 10 years old.

The finished square footage of house is 1750 upstairs, and about 1000 on the lower level of a walk-out style house. We have large windows on back of the house (both levels), facing South East. Also have cathedral ceilings upstairs and a 9' ceiling in the lower level.

Models
Contractor 1. Lennox XC14 (2.5T) 3825
Contractor 2. Carrier Performance (2.5T) 5695
Contractor 3. York CZF 16 Seer (2T) $3595

Warrantees
Contractor 1. 10 Compressor / 10 Parts / 5 Labour
Contractor 2. 10 / 10 /10 (Transferrable warrantee)
Contractor 3. 10/ 10 / 1. (1 year labour? whats up with that! I've sent him an email asking why.)

Contractor 1 - Seemed capable. This company has serviced our existing furnace and has been pretty reasonable to deal with. BBB accredited with 3 minor issues noted in the past 3 years. (All issues reported as resolved by the BBB.) Didn't spend a lot of time with the furnace, but did check it out, as well as the electrical panel. Called me back 2 days after the consult to see if I had questions.

Contractor 2 - Very professional, Direct Energy company. BBB accredited. No issues reported. Very solid reputation in town. Took a fair amount of time getting to know what we liked and didn't like about the performance of the old unit. Took a good amount of time inspecting the furnace, duct sizes, electrical panel. Called me back 2 days after the consult to let me know about the Spring Carrier rebates that got released. Called back and said they could reduce the extended labour warranty by 50% after I mentioned that I had priced out Lennox too.

Contractor 3 - 22 years in Winnipeg, good name, BBB accredited, very few issues on BBB, all resolved. But this quote has puzzled me. He is suggesting the two-stage York. But after reading everything on here, I don't see how my 10-Year old Rheem Classic 90 furnace will work with it? Admittedly, I'm no HVAC guru so I appreciate your thoughts. I've sent a follow-up email to him asking to describe how this will work, or point me towards some documentation that I can read to support that decision.

To his credit, Contractor 3 did take the closest look at my furnace and environment during the quote. He checked inside both the upper and lower cabinets of the furnace, inspecting closely with a flashlight, and taking pictures of the current install and doing a thourough outside inspection, even with the snow drifts here in Winnipeg (the AC is on brackets). He even helped me troubleshoot my flow-through humidiifer which isn't producing enough water. He took the most time with me to explain everything.

I'm located in Winnipeg, land of 9 months of very cold weather, 3 months of hot weather, so I don't need to break the bank on an A/C - I just want to take this opportunity to get the best I can.

I don't mind future-proofing the A/C, since it is likely I'll be replacing my furnace in 5-10 years, but I just can't find any info recommending or supporting this kind of setup?

Sorry if this is a basic question - i wasn't sure where else to turn for some independent comments, opinions, thoughts or attacks on my HVAC naivety! :)

-Scott

[janaka]

I am surprised with a bungalow that they are suggesting a 2.5T for 1750sq/ft main floor.
On that basis I like #3 for the 2T recommendation which I believe to be correct (without seeing the home obviously, and you already have a 2T and didn't mention issues with its capacity to do the job). If they'll increase the warranty or include the YorkCare warranty I think thats the way to go IMO.

[gravymaker]

I wonder if swayed the first 2 contractors by telling them that we noticed the old A/C worked pretty hard last summer, and had some days where I couldn't get the house below 26 or 27c on a 30+c type of day. But thinking about it now - obviously the unit was on its last legs, as it failed in September. Contractor #3 told me he'd rather see a 2T run for longer periods to run at peak efficiency avoid shorter power cycles. Made sense to me.

I'll definitely see what I can do to get the York TotalCare, as the Carrier contractor was willing to reduce the cost of their 10year extended labour warrantee.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Miguel]

I only WISH it was that easy :/
Where those pipes are coming out through the wall there would be considered main floor/1st floor at my house. My furnace is in the basement which is below ground level. For me to terminate like that, I'd have to go through the main floor floor joist, into a bedroom on the main floor and then 90 degree out. I cant do that because then I'd have to build an awkward box in the master bedroom.

Here's the install manual:
http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/58mvc-5si.pdf

The problem I see is that no where in the manual do I see any instructions on how deep I have to dig to 90 out from the wall and 90 up and out.

anyone? Can I bury the intake/exhaust and the come up out of the ground and 90 outwards?

[janaka]

anyone? Can I bury the intake/exhaust and the come up out of the ground and 90 outwards?

Let the professionals deal with the installation. They will do what is needed to get the job done. Relax and trust them to know what they are doing.

[Limoges_shopper]

Hi Gravymaker:

This is an advice thread, but for technical and mechanical advice, not so much a "which price is better" thread. You did not indicate the SEER rating of the Carrier (I'm assuming it's not higher than 16, so I will keep it on equal footing with the York)), but I really like the York price on the air conditioner. Even though the warranty is less than the Carrier, you have almost 2 grand in savings: there is no repair that would suck up even a quarter of that in labour, if the parts are still under warranty. So, I would pick Yorl. The Lennox is a good price, but the SEER rating is is only 14, and I prefer the York to the Lennox 14 SEER.

Mechanically: all of these manufacturers use other people's compressors in their machines - in fact, all manufacturers do with the exception of American Standard/Trane. They all use the same technology as far as the condenser coil, which is copper tubing in aluminum fins. In fact, they all do, except American Standard/Trane: they use aluminum tubing with aluminum spine fins.
The reason I mention this, is that when you look at the base components of the three manufacturers you are talking about, it all comes down to the specifications (efficiency, noise, warranty, and price) along with the company that is dong the installation. So, if all the companies are giving you the feel-good sensation, then I wold go with York, and ask about increasing the labour warranty to 10 years - I am sure the few hundred bucks will be worth it.



Hi Folks - first off, amazing thread - I've read through most of it with great interest and learned a lot.

Based on some of the feedback here, I've gotten 3 quotes on the following units. All quotes are for a replacement of an existing 2T Rheem A/C. My furnace is a Rheem 90 Classic, which I was hoping not to have to replace at this time. Furnace is 10 years old.

The finished square footage of house is 1750 upstairs, and about 1000 on the lower level of a walk-out style house. We have large windows on back of the house (both levels), facing South East. Also have cathedral ceilings upstairs and a 9' ceiling in the lower level.

Models
Contractor 1. Lennox XC14 (2.5T) 3825
Contractor 2. Carrier Performance (2.5T) 5695
Contractor 3. York CZF 16 Seer (2T) $3595

Warrantees
Contractor 1. 10 Compressor / 10 Parts / 5 Labour
Contractor 2. 10 / 10 /10 (Transferrable warrantee)
Contractor 3. 10/ 10 / 1. (1 year labour? whats up with that! I've sent him an email asking why.)

Contractor 1 - Seemed capable. This company has serviced our existing furnace and has been pretty reasonable to deal with. BBB accredited with 3 minor issues noted in the past 3 years. (All issues reported as resolved by the BBB.) Didn't spend a lot of time with the furnace, but did check it out, as well as the electrical panel. Called me back 2 days after the consult to see if I had questions.

Contractor 2 - Very professional, Direct Energy company. BBB accredited. No issues reported. Very solid reputation in town. Took a fair amount of time getting to know what we liked and didn't like about the performance of the old unit. Took a good amount of time inspecting the furnace, duct sizes, electrical panel. Called me back 2 days after the consult to let me know about the Spring Carrier rebates that got released. Called back and said they could reduce the extended labour warranty by 50% after I mentioned that I had priced out Lennox too.

Contractor 3 - 22 years in Winnipeg, good name, BBB accredited, very few issues on BBB, all resolved. But this quote has puzzled me. He is suggesting the two-stage York. But after reading everything on here, I don't see how my 10-Year old Rheem Classic 90 furnace will work with it? Admittedly, I'm no HVAC guru so I appreciate your thoughts. I've sent a follow-up email to him asking to describe how this will work, or point me towards some documentation that I can read to support that decision.

To his credit, Contractor 3 did take the closest look at my furnace and environment during the quote. He checked inside both the upper and lower cabinets of the furnace, inspecting closely with a flashlight, and taking pictures of the current install and doing a thourough outside inspection, even with the snow drifts here in Winnipeg (the AC is on brackets). He even helped me troubleshoot my flow-through humidiifer which isn't producing enough water. He took the most time with me to explain everything.

I'm located in Winnipeg, land of 9 months of very cold weather, 3 months of hot weather, so I don't need to break the bank on an A/C - I just want to take this opportunity to get the best I can.

I don't mind future-proofing the A/C, since it is likely I'll be replacing my furnace in 5-10 years, but I just can't find any info recommending or supporting this kind of setup?

Sorry if this is a basic question - i wasn't sure where else to turn for some independent comments, opinions, thoughts or attacks on my HVAC naivety! :)

-Scott

[Limoges_shopper]

I am surprised with a bungalow that they are suggesting a 2.5T for 1750sq/ft main floor.
On that basis I like #3 for the 2T recommendation which I believe to be correct (without seeing the home obviously, and you already have a 2T and didn't mention issues with its capacity to do the job). If they'll increase the warranty or include the YorkCare warranty I think thats the way to go IMO.

Who are you replying to, Janaka?

I used to go with this rule of thumb: each ton of cooling will do up to 800 square feet of above-grade living space. So, using this formula, we are a bit over the 2 ton mark. Then I look at the age of the home, the amount of glass, then ductwork, etc... And if I see favourable stuff, I move it down to 2 tons. However, if I don't like what I see, I keep it at 2.3 tons. There is no square footage per ton formula that is anywhere close to accurate: it all depends on the house. You can take the exact same houses, and change the orientation of one house and the difference in solar gain through windows can significantly affect the total cooling load.

Now, with a 2 ton working already on this place, I agree with you: if now performance issues before, then stick with 2 tons: you will enjoy better dehumidification.

[Limoges_shopper]

Yeah: someone is taking you to the cleaners. Either the builder when he got a heat pump that didn't have the outdoor thermostat or the contractor in doing sub par workmanship.


anyone? Can I bury the intake/exhaust and the come up out of the ground and 90 outwards?


Let the professionals deal with the installation. They will do what is needed to get the job done. Relax and trust them to know what they are doing.

Well, I think this is not the time to let things be, Janaka: I think in cases like this, you want to be VERY INVOLVED! Get the contractor to tell you what they are doing, and to explain how they will seal the holes in the wall around your pipes. What I don't understand, is how come your header plate (top of foundation wall in basement) is below grade? I have yet to see a house like that. Assuming you are correct in this matter: get the information from the contractor, then look into it (post it here, for ex.), and if you are happy with that, get them to describe that process in the contract. This way if there is any deviation from this process that you have both agreed upon, you have a contract to fall back on.

Bottom line: I don't want to see soils in contact with the penetration point of the foundation: I want to be able to inspect and repair/replace the seal around that pipe. So this would mean a window well will need to be installed. If they don't want to do this for you, then go to your local building supply and buy the narrowest window well of sufficient depth. Also get 2 nags of gravel maybe more or less - depends on the size of the window well). Dig your pit in front of the penetration point, and then go at least 12 inches lower - I'd dig 18 inches lower. Then you install your window well (see how deep your window well goes and determine if you will pour some gravel in before or after the well is installed). Then you need to fasten the well to the foundation wall. You will need a sealant for that (typically a tar-based one: the building supply place will have what you need), and some kind of fastener (use whatever the building supply place advises). Once your well is attached to the wall, top up with gravel until you are at least 2 inches below the bottom of the penetration (hole is typically 2.5" in diameter, so use your tape measure).

The contractor will have to make the holes from the inside - make sure they hang a drop sheet around the guy drilling to minimize dust transference to the house.

[Miguel]

Well, I think this is not the time to let things be, Janaka: I think in cases like this, you want to be VERY INVOLVED! Get the contractor to tell you what they are doing, and to explain how they will seal the holes in the wall around your pipes. What I don't understand, is how come your header plate (top of foundation wall in basement) is below grade? I have yet to see a house like that. Assuming you are correct in this matter: get the information from the contractor, then look into it (post it here, for ex.), and if you are happy with that, get them to describe that process in the contract. This way if there is any deviation from this process that you have both agreed upon, you have a contract to fall back on.

Bottom line: I don't want to see soils in contact with the penetration point of the foundation: I want to be able to inspect and repair/replace the seal around that pipe. So this would mean a window well will need to be installed. If they don't want to do this for you, then go to your local building supply and buy the narrowest window well of sufficient depth. Also get 2 nags of gravel maybe more or less - depends on the size of the window well). Dig your pit in front of the penetration point, and then go at least 12 inches lower - I'd dig 18 inches lower. Then you install your window well (see how deep your window well goes and determine if you will pour some gravel in before or after the well is installed). Then you need to fasten the well to the foundation wall. You will need a sealant for that (typically a tar-based one: the building supply place will have what you need), and some kind of fastener (use whatever the building supply place advises). Once your well is attached to the wall, top up with gravel until you are at least 2 inches below the bottom of the penetration (hole is typically 2.5" in diameter, so use your tape measure).

The contractor will have to make the holes from the inside - make sure they hang a drop sheet around the guy drilling to minimize dust transference to the house.

Thanks! The installer did EXACTLY what you described... drilled 2 x 2 5/8" holes about 24 inches underground, ran the intake/exhaust, dug out for a window well, poured in gravel and shoveled a small amount of dirt on top. It was the exact same way the tankless water heater was installed (but that was 3" pipe). Also, the intake for the tankless and furnace are near each other and the exhausts are on opposite sides such as:

|tankless exhaust|<-->tankless intake<->furnace intake<-->|furnace exhaust|

[Limoges_shopper]

Thanks! The installer did EXACTLY what you described... drilled 2 x 2 5/8" holes about 24 inches underground, ran the intake/exhaust, dug out for a window well, poured in gravel and shoveled a small amount of dirt on top. It was the exact same way the tankless water heater was installed (but that was 3" pipe). Also, the intake for the tankless and furnace are near each other and the exhausts are on opposite sides such as:

|tankless exhaust|<-->tankless intake<->furnace intake<-->|furnace exhaust|

Sounds good to me. The only issue I have is with the dirt on top of the gravel: why? It only hinders what the gravels job is to do, which is occupy space but let water drain.

[Miguel]

Sounds good to me. The only issue I have is with the dirt on top of the gravel: why? It only hinders what the gravels job is to do, which is occupy space but let water drain.

Hey, things aren't going so well and I need some advice that I can pass on to my installer.

First off.... I hear gurgling water outside coming from the exhaust I assume. It sounds like a small river flowing through my backyard! I assume the pipe angle is not letting water flow downwards into the furnace where it should drain out?

Secondly, the venting pipes appear to be strapped to the cold air return and the heat? Is this right?

Third, I noticed my thermostat (Ecobee) reads this furnace as being a 2-stage gas fired furnace, but its a 3 stage (Carrier MVC). My installer said that is the way it is supposed to be setup as the 3rd stage is controlled by the furnace and that the thermostat should see it as a 2 stage.

Fourth, I had issues last night. Once the furnace got going my house warmed up to 22 degrees. then the furnace cutoff as it should. Then the temperature dropped to around 20 degrees and I could hear the furnace ticking like it was trying to fire. This went on for at least an hour at which point I fell asleep (Approx 1am). I know (via the Ecobee cold alert email) that at around 3AM, for the past 2 hours the thermostat has been calling for heat, but the room temperature has decreased by 1.6C. By 5am, the house temperature was down to 16 degrees. Finally, when I woke up at around 8am I could hear the furnace going (I assume at high fire) and the house was up around 18 degrees. The installer verified that all 3 stages (Low/med/high) were working before he left. Any idea what is going on here?

http://i.imgur.com/TTrLD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/86TBk.jpg

[janaka]

1) no idea
2) that is a poor way to support the venting but thats all it is doing, just extra support.
3) thats why you should have got the Infinty stat which is recommended and DESIGNED to work with the furnace.
Sounds like you need a service call. Lets see how good the service is from your installing company.

[Limoges_shopper]

Hey, things aren't going so well and I need some advice that I can pass on to my installer.

First off.... I hear gurgling water outside coming from the exhaust I assume. It sounds like a small river flowing through my backyard! I assume the pipe angle is not letting water flow downwards into the furnace where it should drain out?

Secondly, the venting pipes appear to be strapped to the cold air return and the heat? Is this right?

Third, I noticed my thermostat (Ecobee) reads this furnace as being a 2-stage gas fired furnace, but its a 3 stage (Carrier MVC). My installer said that is the way it is supposed to be setup as the 3rd stage is controlled by the furnace and that the thermostat should see it as a 2 stage.

Fourth, I had issues last night. Once the furnace got going my house warmed up to 22 degrees. then the furnace cutoff as it should. Then the temperature dropped to around 20 degrees and I could hear the furnace ticking like it was trying to fire. This went on for at least an hour at which point I fell asleep (Approx 1am). I know (via the Ecobee cold alert email) that at around 3AM, for the past 2 hours the thermostat has been calling for heat, but the room temperature has decreased by 1.6C. By 5am, the house temperature was down to 16 degrees. Finally, when I woke up at around 8am I could hear the furnace going (I assume at high fire) and the house was up around 18 degrees. The installer verified that all 3 stages (Low/med/high) were working before he left. Any idea what is going on here?

http://i.imgur.com/TTrLD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/86TBk.jpg


1) no idea
2) that is a poor way to support the venting but that's all it is doing, just extra support.
3) thats why you should have got the Infinty stat which is recommended and DESIGNED to work with the furnace.
Sounds like you need a service call. Lets see how good the service is from your installing company.

1) most likely cause: venting is not draining properly - Check to see what angle the horizontal section of pipe that exits the foundation is: if it is not sloping towards the furnace, then they need to fix it. This is a code violation, and needs to be addressed immediately.

2) If the pipes are attached to the ductwork, I don't find too much fault in that. I would prefer it to be hung from the floor joists, but I don't see your basement, so I can't comment.

3) I'm with Janaka here: I would prefer the Infinity Stat for sure. But then-again, if it is designed to work with a 2 stage stat, then it's not a huge issue.

4) Again with Janaka: this is wrong, and it is probably related to build-up of water in the exhaust pipe. Once-again: I'm not there to see what is going on, so I can only speculate.

They need to get their butts back there, and fix this pronto!

[Miguel]

1) most likely cause: venting is not draining properly - Check to see what angle the horizontal section of pipe that exits the foundation is: if it is not sloping towards the furnace, then they need to fix it. This is a code violation, and needs to be addressed immediately.

2) If the pipes are attached to the ductwork, I don't find too much fault in that. I would prefer it to be hung from the floor joists, but I don't see your basement, so I can't comment.

3) I'm with Janaka here: I would prefer the Infinity Stat for sure. But then-again, if it is designed to work with a 2 stage stat, then it's not a huge issue.

4) Again with Janaka: this is wrong, and it is probably related to build-up of water in the exhaust pipe. Once-again: I'm not there to see what is going on, so I can only speculate.

They need to get their butts back there, and fix this pronto!
OK, I'll get the water thing fixed. So the horizontal portion of pipe should be angled so that water drains back down towards the furnace correct? What kind of slope should there be? The hole was drilled almost directly horizontal, should it have been angled 45 degrees?

Also regarding the thermostat, It can be setup for use with a 3 stage furnace. in this case, its been set to read as a 2 stage instead of 3 and I'm not sure that is correct?

[bririp]

1) no idea
2) that is a poor way to support the venting but thats all it is doing, just extra support.
3) thats why you should have got the Infinty stat which is recommended and DESIGNED to work with the furnace.
Sounds like you need a service call. Lets see how good the service is from your installing company.

#2) Venting cannot be strapped to ductwork for support. Duct work is not structural. If it is one strap on each run, and the rest are to the wood I would not worry, but if most of the runs are strapped to the duct, tell him to change it.

[Mr Nobody]

I have a Keeprite N8MP furance. Bearings in the venter seem to be shot, its making whining noises. Silicon spray did not help.

Anywhere I can get bearings just to replace it? I'm hoping for a cheap fix instead of changing out the entire venter.

And how long can I run it the way it is before total failure? There isn't much resistanc when spinning the shaft, but I don't have anything to compare it to.

[Miguel]

#2) Venting cannot be strapped to ductwork for support. Duct work is not structural. If it is one strap on each run, and the rest are to the wood I would not worry, but if most of the runs are strapped to the duct, tell him to change it.
The ONLY strapping for the vents are to the ducts.

Yesterday the furnace completely cacked out. From the backyard it sounded like a river was about to flow out of the exhaust. I stuck a hose down the pipe and blew forcing the water to drain down and then sucked out the leftovers... everything worked perfectly after that so I guess some re-venting is in order.

Regarding the Ecobee thermostat, I have to rewire that as a single stage furnace instead of dual stage. Here's their response (Great customer service BTW!)

Thanks for contacting ecobee support. This furnace can operate as a step modulating furnace only with a single stage thermostat because the furnace control CPU determines the sequence of operation. This control is based on the stored history of lengths of previous gas heating periods of the single stage thermostat. Based on above explanation, the furnace has to be configured as a single stage system. The correct wiring diagram is attached. You can use any of the three ACC relays for humidifier control. Let us know if you need further assistance.

Regards
Customer Support
T 1.877.932.6233 F 866.592.7344 W www.ecobee.com
ecobee | green made easy

[thefall]

I've learnt alot by reading this long thread. Thank you!
Here is my situation, I have a very old air conditioner that I am replacing, hopefuly before end of this month to get the rebate.
But I have trouble choosing between a Carrier Comfort series 24acc6 vs. Performance 24apa5.
The current old unit is 2' wide, the side of my house is 4' to fence. (I could put it in the back yard, beside the deck.)
These are what I'm not sure about, is apa5 a lot larger than acc6? What's the price difference between these two and if acc6 is too noisy to put aside the deck in summer?

[janaka]

I've learnt alot by reading this long thread. Thank you!
Here is my situation, I have a very old air conditioner that I am replacing, hopefuly before end of this month to get the rebate.
But I have trouble choosing between a Carrier Comfort series 24acc6 vs. Performance 24apa5.
The current old unit is 2' wide, the side of my house is 4' to fence. (I could put it in the back yard, beside the deck.)
These are what I'm not sure about, is apa5 a lot larger than acc6? What's the price difference between these two and if acc6 is too noisy to put aside the deck in summer?

ACC6 is approximately 31"x31" the APA is definitely larger. I don't recall the exact measurement off hand, I'd guess in the 36x36" area though if I were to guess.
The ACC6 is a nice unit, the APA is a FANTASTIC unit. No efficiency gain to go to the APA but it is quieter and has the communication ability if you have (or ever get) an Infinity furnace/stat.

[ladyyj]

Which one of the 3 gas furnaces are good based on the price and quality?

1) Bryant the Plus 95i Model 355BAV

2) Rheem Model RGRM

3) KeepRite VS 95

and can someone tell me the prices for those? I can't even find the up to date prices..
and could someone tell me where I can buy it?
I'm just so confused.

thanks

[janaka]

Which one of the 3 gas furnaces are good based on the price and quality?

1) Bryant the Plus 95i Model 355BAV

2) Rheem Model RGRM

3) KeepRite VS 95

and can someone tell me the prices for those? I can't even find the up to date prices..
and could someone tell me where I can buy it?
I'm just so confused.

thanks

If you don't have quotes on those models where did you pick them from?
For pricing call people to come to your house to see what YOU need for YOUR installation. We don't know what materials, time or even sizing you need for the furnace. Do you need a chimney liner? Condensate pump? Drop? Boot? Air filter? Thermostat? Venting length?

[thefall]

ACC6 is approximately 31"x31" the APA is definitely larger. I don't recall the exact measurement off hand, I'd guess in the 36x36" area though if I were to guess.
The ACC6 is a nice unit, the APA is a FANTASTIC unit. No efficiency gain to go to the APA but it is quieter and has the communication ability if you have (or ever get) an Infinity furnace/stat.

Thank you so much. What would the "communication ability" benefit me? I'd like to get an idea how much APA model costs more, if that's not too much, I prefer the quiet unit.

[janaka]

Thank you so much. What would the "communication ability" benefit me? I'd like to get an idea how much APA model costs more, if that's not too much, I prefer the quiet unit.

The communication only benefits you if you have an Infinity Furnace and Thermostat.
If you do not then it means nothing.
I'd imagine depending who you talk to the price difference will be $500 or so.

[Limoges_shopper]

Thanks! The installer did EXACTLY what you described... drilled 2 x 2 5/8" holes about 24 inches underground, ran the intake/exhaust, dug out for a window well, poured in gravel and shoveled a small amount of dirt on top. It was the exact same way the tankless water heater was installed (but that was 3" pipe). Also, the intake for the tankless and furnace are near each other and the exhausts are on opposite sides such as:

|tankless exhaust|<-->tankless intake<->furnace intake<-->|furnace exhaust|


#2) Venting cannot be strapped to ductwork for support. Duct work is not structural. If it is one strap on each run, and the rest are to the wood I would not worry, but if most of the runs are strapped to the duct, tell him to change it.

You're right - the venting should be hung from the ceiling and not the ductwork. Get them back to fix this. If the owner did not do the installation, mention somehting about inexperienced installers, etc... If the owner tells you to screw off, then tell him you will post pictures of his "workmanship" along with his company's name and how you feel you were treated. RFD members unites and take over the World! Well, our little portion of it! hehe!

[Limoges_shopper]

The ONLY strapping for the vents are to the ducts.

Yesterday the furnace completely cacked out. From the backyard it sounded like a river was about to flow out of the exhaust. I stuck a hose down the pipe and blew forcing the water to drain down and then sucked out the leftovers... everything worked perfectly after that so I guess some re-venting is in order.

Regarding the Ecobee thermostat, I have to rewire that as a single stage furnace instead of dual stage. Here's their response (Great customer service BTW!)

Thanks for contacting ecobee support. This furnace can operate as a step modulating furnace only with a single stage thermostat because the furnace control CPU determines the sequence of operation. This control is based on the stored history of lengths of previous gas heating periods of the single stage thermostat. Based on above explanation, the furnace has to be configured as a single stage system. The correct wiring diagram is attached. You can use any of the three ACC relays for humidifier control. Let us know if you need further assistance.

Regards
Customer Support
T 1.877.932.6233 F 866.592.7344 W www.ecobee.com
ecobee | green made easy

Miguel: you need to get them back now! The venting does not need to have a 45 degree slope: only a 1:48 slope, or 1" every 4 feet.
They did not do a proper installation - start freaking out. Mention RFD, and also mention TSSA Fuel Safety Division. They have to fix this - the law demands this. You bought a furnace installed as per local codes, national codes and manufacturer's instructions: all of which are not being followed here!

Also, where is the window well? You just can't leave a hole in the ground like this! They should have installed the well BEFORE installing the venting.

Get on the blower and talk to the owner - now...

[Limoges_shopper]

I have a Keeprite N8MP furance. Bearings in the venter seem to be shot, its making whining noises. Silicon spray did not help.

Anywhere I can get bearings just to replace it? I'm hoping for a cheap fix instead of changing out the entire venter.

And how long can I run it the way it is before total failure? There isn't much resistanc when spinning the shaft, but I don't have anything to compare it to.

Buy a new venter motor - you can't rebuild them. Plus look at what you are trying to fix: a gas appliance that keeps your house warm, and your pipes from freezing, etc... You have 15 or more reasons not to McGuyver a fix (safety for you and your family top amoungst them), and only 1 not to.

[Limoges_shopper]

I've learnt alot by reading this long thread. Thank you!
Here is my situation, I have a very old air conditioner that I am replacing, hopefuly before end of this month to get the rebate.
But I have trouble choosing between a Carrier Comfort series 24acc6 vs. Performance 24apa5.
The current old unit is 2' wide, the side of my house is 4' to fence. (I could put it in the back yard, beside the deck.)
These are what I'm not sure about, is apa5 a lot larger than acc6? What's the price difference between these two and if acc6 is too noisy to put aside the deck in summer?


Why choose only Carrier? I think you should look at other brands too - you will notice a difference in pricing and options.

[Limoges_shopper]

Which one of the 3 gas furnaces are good based on the price and quality?

1) Bryant the Plus 95i Model 355BAV

2) Rheem Model RGRM

3) KeepRite VS 95

and can someone tell me the prices for those? I can't even find the up to date prices..
and could someone tell me where I can buy it?
I'm just so confused.

thanks

And I'm going to confuse you even more:

I don't like Keeprite at all, and I think you should be looking at American Standard and Whirlpool as well.

Consumer Reports has the Rheem being more reliable than the the other 2 brands. The Bryant is a Carrier under a different name, but made in the same factory. I am not 100% convinced that they have rectified their secondary heat exchanger issue, but I may be wrong - they had issues a few years ago - I saw the first hand.

[RETD]

I have a Keeprite N8MP furance. Bearings in the venter seem to be shot, its making whining noises. Silicon spray did not help.

Anywhere I can get bearings just to replace it? I'm hoping for a cheap fix instead of changing out the entire venter.

And how long can I run it the way it is before total failure? There isn't much resistanc when spinning the shaft, but I don't have anything to compare it to.


I have a single-stage Arcoaire Furnace (same parent company as Keeprite - ICP).

About 7 yrs ago the venter ran continously for a good part of the night b/c the stat was calling for heat but the furnace wouldn't fire up b/c the intake was clogged with snow. I was worried that maybe the bearings were shot - the motor assembly felt hot but I had no reference for comparison.

Not wanting to chance its failure I replaced it with a new unit (Fasco A170) that I bought locally for about $200. Incidentally the new unit felt just as warm as the old one (but at least now I have a spare)

[Mr Nobody]

Buy a new venter motor - you can't rebuild them. Plus look at what you are trying to fix: a gas appliance that keeps your house warm, and your pipes from freezing, etc... You have 15 or more reasons not to McGuyver a fix (safety for you and your family top amoungst them), and only 1 not to.

I'm not fixing a gas appliance. I'm replacing a bearing on an electric motor. $2-5 bearing vs $250 motor (local) or $140 (ebay), no brainer.

Who's Macgyver'ing? I'm asking if anybody knows where I can buy replacement bearings. I'm not asking how to fix a heat exchanger with duct tape.

By your argument, for "my family's saftety", I shouldn't even replace the ventor and should replace the entire furnace. :rollseyes:

[Mr Nobody]

I have a single-stage Arcoaire Furnace (same parent company as Keeprite - ICP).

About 7 yrs ago the venter ran continously for a good part of the night b/c the stat was calling for heat but the furnace wouldn't fire up b/c the intake was clogged with snow. I was worried that maybe the bearings were shot - the motor assembly felt hot but I had no reference for comparison.

Not wanting to chance its failure I replaced it with a new unit (Fasco A170) that I bought locally for about $200. Incidentally the new unit felt just as warm as the old one (but at least now I have a spare)

Thanks for the info. Ya, just got some local quotes for $200, tax incl.

[janaka]

I'm not fixing a gas appliance. I'm replacing a bearing on an electric motor. $2-5 bearing vs $250 motor (local) or $140 (ebay), no brainer.

Who's Macgyver'ing? I'm asking if anybody knows where I can buy replacement bearings. I'm not asking how to fix a heat exchanger with duct tape.

By your argument, for "my family's saftety", I shouldn't even replace the ventor and should replace the entire furnace. :rollseyes:

averagee joe can't do it properly, most who think they can, can't. If you can then why are you asking on here? Go get the bearings and do it already.

no hvac supplier/store will sell the bearings, if you can find them good on ya. If it was a no brainer you are the man for the job!

[Kanchi]

A buddy of mine has a house less than 6 years old.
I noticed he didn't have big 4x10 airvents like I have in my 50 yr old house.
He has these small circular vents which blow air at higher speeds.
How do these compare? If its better can an older house be easily retofitted?

I have a long vent run in the basement from the back to the front of the house. Then it has to go up 2 floors. The heat is pretty weak on my 2nd floor and its usually cooler up there than the 1st floor. My basement is unfinished and cool. A lot of heat heat is lost to it before the air reaches upstairs. I plan on insulating it but am also looking at new furnace/AC too. In summer, 2nd floor also gets weak AC and is much warmer.
I haven't had an HVAC guy come look yet. Looking at different options first.

Thanks.

[hempopotamus]

I highlighted a couple of things you mentioned.

FYI, the Keeprite furnace is made in the same factory as well. They are all made in Indianapolis in the UTC factory. Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Keeprite, Tempstar, Arcoaire, Heil, Lincoln, Day Night, Tempstar, Comfortmaker and more. Yes I know because I've been there and toured it.

http://www.residential.carrier.com/
http://www.bryant.com/
http://www.payne.com/
http://www.icpusa.com/

UTC / Carrier - Indianapolis (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&q=utc+indianapolis&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=utc&hnear=Indianapolis,+IN,+USA&cid=0,0,14004859571472751148&sqi=2&ll=39.752238,-86.293423&spn=0.005799,0.01236&t=h&z=17)

So if you are recommending Bryant simply because they are made in the same factory as Carrier you should have no concerns with the other brands built there as well. The are all manufactured from the same flat steel at the front of the line. It's the different technologies used in each brand which can differentiate them.


And I'm going to confuse you even more:

I don't like Keeprite at all, ....... The Bryant is a Carrier under a different name, but made in the same factory. I am not 100% convinced that they have rectified their secondary heat exchanger issue, but I may be wrong - they had issues a few years ago - I saw the first hand.

[Mr Nobody]

averagee joe can't do it properly, most who think they can, can't. If you can then why are you asking on here? Go get the bearings and do it already.

no hvac supplier/store will sell the bearings, if you can find them good on ya. If it was a no brainer you are the man for the job!

Read my original post. I am asking WHERE to buy the bearings. Not how to replace them. :rollseyes:

[Limoges_shopper]

I'm not fixing a gas appliance. I'm replacing a bearing on an electric motor. $2-5 bearing vs $250 motor (local) or $140 (ebay), no brainer.

Who's Macgyver'ing? I'm asking if anybody knows where I can buy replacement bearings. I'm not asking how to fix a heat exchanger with duct tape.

By your argument, for "my family's safetty", I shouldn't even replace the ventor and should replace the entire furnace. :rollseyes:


averagee joe can't do it properly, most who think they can, can't. If you can then why are you asking on here? Go get the bearings and do it already.

no hvac supplier/store will sell the bearings, if you can find them good on ya. If it was a no brainer you are the man for the job!

I agree with Janaka here: this is not an average Joe repair, and if you feel you can do it, then go right ahead.

And c'mon: where did I even hint at replacing the whole furnace? I am just saying that if you screw it up, you could have a dangerous situation. Gas furnaces are very dangerous appliances that should not be looked as lightly: It can kill you in many ways: explosion, fire, electrocution, oxygen deprivation (suffocation) and carbon monoxide poisoning. So when you, who is obviously not a certified and trained technician, want to do a repair that the furnace manufacturer strongly warns against (in fact will void any warranty left on your furnace as a result) just to save a few bucks - that makes me concerned for the safety of your family. And yes: it is a McGyver job - nobody in the HVAC industry will replace the sealed bearings on a small residential ventor motor ever: it's just plain stupid and cheap.

Ask advice from the experts (and yes, we are called that since we live, eat, breath and sleep HVAC day in and out), and we will answer honestly. If you don't like the answer, then jump in your time machine, and stop yourself from posting. :) :lol:

[Mr Nobody]

I'm not asking for ADVICE from experts whether I should proceed or not. I am asking where I can buy bearings. Reread my original post. No time machine needed. Not for me at least. Perhaps you.

You could have simply answered that it will be hard to find replacement bearings and that these are typically FRUs and I would have thank you'd you for your reply and moved on. Instead, you insinuate with your superiority as an "expert" that I don't know what I'm doing and that I am Macgyvering a fix.

Cheap? Don't mention that here on RFD. If I were to WASTE money on replacing every little thing that broke instead of trying to fix it, I wouldn't be on RFD, cause I'd be rich!

Regarding some points you've made:

Screwing up - How can you screw up removing a bearing from a shaft and inserting a new one? I am not unpacking the bearing case and replacing and regreasing the ball bearing. Even then, you can't screw that up.

Dangerous situation - Tied into the screwing up point. How do I screw up replacing the bearings that creates a dangerous situation? If you are saying I should not even unbolt the ventor motor, then I can agree...somewhat. It is possible to damage parts if not careful, or possibly bolt it back improperly (eg. improperly sealed with the gasket), but the pressure sensor exists and is the second last line of defense that shuts off the furnace if the seal is not proper or of the motor seizes. The last line of defense being the CO detector next to the furnace alerting me to running from my house. So ya, there's risk in removing the ventor motor (Why aren't you just telling me to HIRE someone?), but there is hardly any risk in replacing the bearings once the motor is out. BTW, I have removed and installed the motor twice now.

Nobody in the HVAC industry will replace the sealed bearings - True. But that's not because of safety. That is because of $$$. It is easier for YOU GUYS to swap out a motor in 10 minutes and get on to your next service call than it is for you to spend an hour or more to replacing a bearings, IN THE FIELD, where anything can go wrong. One way you make quick money by selling a customer an over priced part. The other way, you need to make money by work and effort in replacing a cheap part. I'm not knocking what you do. This is just best practice for a hired techs - easiest money for least time and work. You have a problem with your car's tranny, mechanics swap in a new rather than tear down the tranny. Too much work. Your computer's PSU fan is noisy, Best Buy Geeks will swap out the PSU for you, they don't open the PSU and replace the fan. It is all about saving their own time and effort. But I am doing this myself, I have the time and effort to spend on this to save hundreds of dollars (not a few bucks).

Perhaps I should have asked on a new thread instead of asking on this thread. I would have gotten answers ABOUT WHERE TO BUY BEARINGS from a broad range of DIYers instead of getting beat on from a bunch of HVAC guys.

[janaka]

I think Mr nobody is Mr Crankypants today.
Go call around or google it. Since we don't replace them we don't know where to get them. Good luck finding and replacing your bearings. Cheers.

[Mr Nobody]

I think Mr nobody is Mr Crankypants today.
Go call around or google it. Since we don't replace them we don't know where to get them. Good luck finding and replacing your bearings. Cheers.

How am I cranky? All my points are valid.

What do they call people who make fun of people and label them with names? /retorical

You're right though, you don't replace them so you don't know where to buy them. I posted in the wrong thread.

[Snickers]

Hi there,

I appreciate all the info in this thread by the industry guys. It's a mammoth of a thread to go through, but I think there is a lot of great info in here and a lot of things brought up that I wouldn't have thought about.

I would like some expert opinions on both the model of furnace / AC as well as the price, if you wouldn't mind. I've gotten a carrier, and a Goodman quote. The carrier is way out of our league, and from what I've been reading in here (~10k), Goodman isn't where I want to be.

This is what I'm being offered. I like the guy, and he does hydronics stuff as well (which I'd like to use him for down the road). I just want to make sure the quote is reasonable (as we all have to eat), or if I should ask for a bit of a price break. For reference, I'm in Toronto.

1 York (model no. TM9V080B12MP11) multi position 2 stage, variable speed, 80 000 BTU furnace;
general 1042 humidifier;
general air Mac 1400 air cleaner;
1 - York (model no. TCGD024) 13 seer central air conditioner ( I still have to verify the tonnage)
10 year parts and labour warranty on furnace and condensing unit only.

6,750 + tax

Thanks

[janaka]

Hi there,

I appreciate all the info in this thread by the industry guys. It's a mammoth of a thread to go through, but I think there is a lot of great info in here and a lot of things brought up that I wouldn't have thought about.

I would like some expert opinions on both the model of furnace / AC as well as the price, if you wouldn't mind. I've gotten a carrier, and a Goodman quote. The carrier is way out of our league, and from what I've been reading in here (~10k), Goodman isn't where I want to be.

This is what I'm being offered. I like the guy, and he does hydronics stuff as well (which I'd like to use him for down the road). I just want to make sure the quote is reasonable (as we all have to eat), or if I should ask for a bit of a price break. For reference, I'm in Toronto.

1 York (model no. TM9V080B12MP11) multi position 2 stage, variable speed, 80 000 BTU furnace;
general 1042 humidifier;
general air Mac 1400 air cleaner;
1 - York (model no. TCGD024) 13 seer central air conditioner ( I still have to verify the tonnage)
10 year parts and labour warranty on furnace and condensing unit only.

6,750 + tax

Thanks

Thats an ok price since you have 10/10 warranty. If you have an existing AC then upgrading to the TCGF or YCJF (14.5 SEER's) you will get an additional $650 in rebates, be more efficient and quieter.
I'm glad to see people putting the air cleaners on furnaces more and more now, definitely the best thing to do for performance and longevity of the new appliance. There are health benefits too.

[Limoges_shopper]

I'm not asking for ADVICE from experts whether I should proceed or not. I am asking where I can buy bearings. Reread my original post. No time machine needed. Not for me at least. Perhaps you.

You could have simply answered that it will be hard to find replacement bearings and that these are typically FRUs and I would have thank you'd you for your reply and moved on. Instead, you insinuate with your superiority as an "expert" that I don't know what I'm doing and that I am Macgyvering a fix.

I have no idea of your technical expertise. If your expertise is high enough that you know how to replace a bearing set on a ventor motor, then go to a bearing shop and go for it. The CGA, TSSA and CSA forbid us from repairing this component - we are only allowed to replace it with a new part. this is not an insinuation of superiority, but stating a fact, and throwing in some advice: remember I have no idea of what your knowledge of gas appliances are, and if you are going to reconnect the pressure sensor hoses back the way they are supposed to, and not kill your family because you screwed something up. So, at the risk of being accused of having a superiority complex, I veer on the side of caution, and fight for the kid in the family, who is at the mercy of her McGyvering father. So, if you're a trained technician, then go ahead and fart around with your furnace. But if you're not: keep your hands out of it other than the change the filter.



Regarding some points you've made:

Screwing up - How can you screw up removing a bearing from a shaft and inserting a new one? I am not unpacking the bearing case and replacing and regreasing the ball bearing. Even then, you can't screw that up.

Dangerous situation - Tied into the screwing up point. How do I screw up replacing the bearings that creates a dangerous situation?

Make a mistake in installing it, not know how to test it, not seat it properly, and have it rub against the housing and melt (it's plastic), etc....





If you are saying I should not even unbolt the ventor motor, then I can agree...somewhat. It is possible to damage parts if not careful, or possibly bolt it back improperly (eg. improperly sealed with the gasket), but the pressure sensor exists and is the second last line of defense that shuts off the furnace if the seal is not proper or of the motor seizes. The last line of defense being the CO detector next to the furnace alerting me to running from my house. So ya, there's risk in removing the ventor motor (Why aren't you just telling me to HIRE someone?), but there is hardly any risk in replacing the bearings once the motor is out. BTW, I have removed and installed the motor twice now.

Nobody in the HVAC industry will replace the sealed bearings - True. But that's not because of safety. That is because of $$$. It is easier for YOU GUYS to swap out a motor in 10 minutes and get on to your next service call than it is for you to spend an hour or more to replacing a bearings, IN THE FIELD, where anything can go wrong. One way you make quick money by selling a customer an over priced part. The other way, you need to make money by work and effort in replacing a cheap part. I'm not knocking what you do. This is just best practice for a hired techs - easiest money for least time and work.
Not true: it works out cheaper for the customer: if the technicians had to repair the components, they would have to charge for the labour to do so, plus getting the right bearing. That said, you would end up paying for labour at more than the cost of the total part. If you can buy a bearing for say $25.00, you will pay more than double that from an HVAC company. Why? 2 reasons: 1) profit and 2) they had to physically get the part, inventory it, etc... So add that markup to the labour, and compare it to having your furnace operating 45 minutes sooner for maybe a few bucks less, AND you have a brand new ventor motor. PLUS: it is illegal for us to repair this component: is will no longer be approved by the furnace manufacturer! And thus it is not approved by all the applicable authorities.



You have a problem with your car's tranny, mechanics swap in a new rather than tear down the tranny. Too much work. Your computer's PSU fan is noisy, Best Buy Geeks will swap out the PSU for you, they don't open the PSU and replace the fan. It is all about saving their own time and effort. But I am doing this myself, I have the time and effort to spend on this to save hundreds of dollars (not a few bucks).

Perhaps I should have asked on a new thread instead of asking on this thread. I would have gotten answers ABOUT WHERE TO BUY BEARINGS from a broad range of DIYers instead of getting beat on from a bunch of HVAC guys.

You didn't get beat on, you got warned that you could be placing you and your family at risk. Do you think I should have said nothing, and think "let the guy blow himself and his family up"? We are technical advisers, but we are also helping a lot of people from hurting themselves too. So I say as I said before: rather take the risk of not having my advise received in the spirit it was intended then say nothing and have something bad happen as a result of my silence. Which would you choose?

[Samwfive]

Mr. Nobody,

I have a keeprite N9MP in which I changed the whiny/burnt-out ventor this past December myself.

It didn't last for my US order to come in...about $120 from electricmotorwarehouse located in Michigan(ships to Canada). Managed to find it at Amre Supplies at Midland & Progress Ave for $205 + tax.

Like you, I always like to McGyver broken stuffs/parts before they are tossed. Can't hurt, right? So this is what I found out:

The unit has the propeller sealed inside the ventor body. However I managed to dissembled the whole motor easily without having to touch the propeller. The motor is like that of a household table fan! There is NO bearing per se for you to replace. But just by sanding/cleaning/lubing the motor shaft I managed to get it rotate smoothly again! So now I have a back-up....

Removing the "whiny" and installing a new one took 10 minutes, tops. Black to black, white to white, green to ground, wiring that is.

[Mr Nobody]

I have no idea of your technical expertise. If your expertise is high enough that you know how to replace a bearing set on a ventor motor, then go to a bearing shop and go for it. The CGA, TSSA and CSA forbid us from repairing this component - we are only allowed to replace it with a new part. this is not an insinuation of superiority, but stating a fact, and throwing in some advice: remember I have no idea of what your knowledge of gas appliances are, and if you are going to reconnect the pressure sensor hoses back the way they are supposed to, and not kill your family because you screwed something up. So, at the risk of being accused of having a superiority complex, I veer on the side of caution, and fight for the kid in the family, who is at the mercy of her McGyvering father. So, if you're a trained technician, then go ahead and fart around with your furnace. But if you're not: keep your hands out of it other than the change the filter.

Your concern is appreciated, but your concern is misdirected. You are afraid I can't plug a rubber hose back onto a plastic connector? You are afraid I can't slide a sealed bearing from a shaft and slide back a new bearing. But you have no concerns with me removing the venter motor itself? You have not once told me to not remove the ventor motor and to call a pro. You only seem to have a concern with me disassembling the motor. The most difficult part is NOT pressure hose. The most difficult part is not disassembling the motor. The most difficult part was removing the venter motor without dropping any screws into heating chamber below. And to call it difficult would be an exaggeration.



Make a mistake in installing it, not know how to test it, not seat it properly, and have it rub against the housing and melt (it's plastic), etc....


Make a mistake in installing the bearing or the venter back into the furace? There is no way to incorrectly install the bearing. You slide it off, you slide a new one on back to the same location. There is not seating issue, there is no rubbing issue. I have no plastic housing.

I don't think you you have every disassembled one of these motors before because your regulations do not allow you to, or you are not familiar with the venter motor that I am working with here.




You didn't get beat on, you got warned that you could be placing you and your family at risk. Do you think I should have said nothing, and think "let the guy blow himself and his family up"? We are technical advisers, but we are also helping a lot of people from hurting themselves too. So I say as I said before: rather take the risk of not having my advise received in the spirit it was intended then say nothing and have something bad happen as a result of my silence. Which would you choose?

You're overblowing the danger. Recall that I am talking about replacing a bearing on a venter motor (not some gas related part, so how do I blow myself up?). Yet you seem to have no concern with me removing the motor. You just remind me of those garage door guys that warn people they can't replace their own torsion springs. Its like their losing out on business or something.

Anyways, I'm done arguing with you on this.

Have a nice day. (I mean that)

[Mr Nobody]

Mr. Nobody,

I have a keeprite N9MP in which I changed the whiny/burnt-out ventor this past December myself.

It didn't last for my US order to come in...about $120 from electricmotorwarehouse located in Michigan(ships to Canada). Managed to find it at Amre Supplies at Midland & Progress Ave for $205 + tax.

Like you, I always like to McGyver broken stuffs/parts before they are tossed. Can't hurt, right? So this is what I found out:

The unit has the propeller sealed inside the ventor body. However I managed to dissembled the whole motor easily without having to touch the propeller. The motor is like that of a household table fan! There is NO bearing per se for you to replace. But just by sanding/cleaning/lubing the motor shaft I managed to get it rotate smoothly again! So now I have a back-up....

Removing the "whiny" and installing a new one took 10 minutes, tops. Black to black, white to white, green to ground, wiring that is.

Macgyver, to me, he makes/fixes things with non-conventional parts/methods, so I don't consider myself MacGyvering anything. I am trying to fix a motor with PROPER parts. So think of it like rebuilding a motor, like one rebuilds a transmission. This is one of the points of contention I have with the other posters on this topic. :)

Yes, its nothing more than 120V AC fan! Similar fans sell for $10-$20. Slap on a sheet metal housing and a carousel turbine and they charge you $200 for it! Outrageous!

My model is N8MP so is a little different from your N9MP. Mine has 2 bearing cases. I have tried lubing it, but still no luck. I need to completely remove the turbine from the shaft to get a better look. My current torx set was too short to reach the screw so I have bought a longer one. Just have not had time to crack it back open. Too bad the housing is rivetted shut and I can't examine the turbine as well.

Anyways, thanks for your post. Its good to hear someone was able to fix theirs. :)

[sfrancis]

A great thread and thanks for those who share your knowledge !

I'm thinking about installing an AccuClean filter system. My furnace installed by builder is about 12 years old (rated as high efficiency 91%). I guess the work involved for the filter system is just to make space to insert that thick filter ? If down the road I need to replace my furnace, do I need to get the installer to come again to hook up to the new furnace or it can be done by the contractor who replace the furnace ?

Also, typically how long a furnace last ? Guess it's a bit early to change furnace as everything works properly now.

Thanks

[Dave25]

I got a quote today from Aire One:
TM9V 60,000 Mbh $3700
YP9C 60,000 Mbh $4100
York Flow Thru humidifier $330.
Furnace includes regular digital thermostat and change of the pipe that vents to the side of the house.

Is this a reasonable quote? Is the YP9C worth the extra $400?

Also I was told the government rebate will only net $300 to $400 after paying for the audit and must be completed by March 31.

[Dave25]

I noticed many bad reviews of York furnaces on the following web site:
http://www.furnacecompare.com/furnaces/york/reviews/1

Any opinion on York furnaces if they are reliable? Should I go for Carrier or Lennox instead?

[zoltran]

I noticed many bad reviews of York furnaces on the following web site:
http://www.furnacecompare.com/furnaces/york/reviews/1

Any opinion on York furnaces if they are reliable? Should I go for Carrier or Lennox instead?

Read back thru the forum, and I think you'll see some of the professionals on this board recommend York, as well as other brands.
The important parts are selecting a good vendor/installer that is going to be there tomorrow.
I have a high end York YP9C furnace and YCJF A/C for almost two years now and am very happy with it.

[nighthawk26]

I noticed many bad reviews of York furnaces on the following web site:
http://www.furnacecompare.com/furnaces/york/reviews/1

Any opinion on York furnaces if they are reliable? Should I go for Carrier or Lennox instead?

I don't have time to go through the DOZENS of random sites that will give useless reviews of furnaces. Tell me the brand you want bad reviews on, gimme an hour and I'll have a dozen for you. Should we start with the quarter MILLION person lawsuit against Carrier for failing heat exchangers? You know, the one that was settled in court after Carrier INCISTING they have the best design? Then do you want me to tell you now or do you want to wait till next year when you see them come with their new line (COMPLETE redesign) which literally almost clones another brand you may have mentioned. I can't wait for next heating season. Contradictions amuse me!

Now, that said. York did have some stupid problems with pressure switches. Difference was THEY were proactive with them, sent replacements parts to dealers to get out and retrofit them in the field. I have no issues with this. There was a problem, they were proactive and worked to resolve it, but there certainly were a great number of units affected.

[Gailey]

Back in February, having just moved to the GTA, I posted in this thread looking for a reputable company to help me with HVAC. I then proceeded to read through then entire thread, yes from start to finish! I was extremely impressed by the professional people who are prepared to devote many, many hours here to help people. I also think that when you advise on a public forum you really need to know what you are talking about. Those that don't, those that shill and those that drop in very, very occasionally with the sole intent of making a quick buck don't last long.

So I am back to say that I opted to go with Brian Ripchensky from Stouffville Home & Comfort Ltd. They installed a Rinnai tankless hot water system, an American Standard modulating furnace (AUHMB060ACV3VA), a Honeywell TrueSteam humidifier (HM512), an American Standard communicating thermostat, a Rinnai condensing tankless hot water system (RC80), American Standard 2 ton 15 seer air conditioning unit (4A7A5024A1000A) and an American Standard Accuclean hepa air cleaner.

The installation took approx two days, they were great guys to deal with. I haven't had a single ounce of bother with the system since it went in a few weeks ago.

Many people come to Red Flag Deals in search of a deal. I came looking for someone with knowledge, who is respected by his professional peers and competitors and value for money. I expect to be living with this system for many years to come, so it was important to me to get it done right. Stouffville Home & Comfort did it right!

Now I realise to some that I may come across as a shill, which is not the case. I am happy to answer any questions either here or by PM. I'm just one very happy and satisfied customer.

And for anyone new reading this forum, Brian Ripchensky is "Bririp" who started this thread at the begining of 2008.

[Miguel]

Back in February, having just moved to the GTA, I posted in this thread looking for a reputable company to help me with HVAC. I then proceeded to read through then entire thread, yes from start to finish! I was extremely impressed by the professional people who are prepared to devote many, many hours here to help people. I also think that when you advise on a public forum you really need to know what you are talking about. Those that don't, those that shill and those that drop in very, very occasionally with the sole intent of making a quick buck don't last long.

So I am back to say that I opted to go with Brian Ripchensky from Stouffville Home & Comfort Ltd. They installed a Rinnai tankless hot water system, an American Standard modulating furnace (AUHMB060ACV3VA), a Honeywell TrueSteam humidifier (HM512), an American Standard communicating thermostat, a Rinnai condensing tankless hot water system (RC80), American Standard 2 ton 15 seer air conditioning unit (4A7A5024A1000A) and an American Standard Accuclean hepa air cleaner.

The installation took approx two days, they were great guys to deal with. I haven't had a single ounce of bother with the system since it went in a few weeks ago.

Many people come to Red Flag Deals in search of a deal. I came looking for someone with knowledge, who is respected by his professional peers and competitors and value for money. I expect to be living with this system for many years to come, so it was important to me to get it done right. Stouffville Home & Comfort did it right!

Now I realise to some that I may come across as a shill, which is not the case. I am happy to answer any questions either here or by PM. I'm just one very happy and satisfied customer.

And for anyone new reading this forum, Brian Ripchensky is "Bririp" who started this thread at the begining of 2008.
price?

[zoltran]

Galley .. Thanks for making a real positive post.
The good guys often go un-thanked,
I've nothing to do with that firm, but I'm sure they appreciate it.

[nighthawk26]

Back in February, having just moved to the GTA, I posted in this thread looking for a reputable company to help me with HVAC. I then proceeded to read through then entire thread, yes from start to finish! I was extremely impressed by the professional people who are prepared to devote many, many hours here to help people. I also think that when you advise on a public forum you really need to know what you are talking about. Those that don't, those that shill and those that drop in very, very occasionally with the sole intent of making a quick buck don't last long.

So I am back to say that I opted to go with Brian Ripchensky from Stouffville Home & Comfort Ltd. They installed a Rinnai tankless hot water system, an American Standard modulating furnace (AUHMB060ACV3VA), a Honeywell TrueSteam humidifier (HM512), an American Standard communicating thermostat, a Rinnai condensing tankless hot water system (RC80), American Standard 2 ton 15 seer air conditioning unit (4A7A5024A1000A) and an American Standard Accuclean hepa air cleaner.

The installation took approx two days, they were great guys to deal with. I haven't had a single ounce of bother with the system since it went in a few weeks ago.

Many people come to Red Flag Deals in search of a deal. I came looking for someone with knowledge, who is respected by his professional peers and competitors and value for money. I expect to be living with this system for many years to come, so it was important to me to get it done right. Stouffville Home & Comfort did it right!

Now I realise to some that I may come across as a shill, which is not the case. I am happy to answer any questions either here or by PM. I'm just one very happy and satisfied customer.

And for anyone new reading this forum, Brian Ripchensky is "Bririp" who started this thread at the begining of 2008.

Bririp has always posted with best intentions for members in mind. In fact, I find many have, but I agree that it's always nice to see a positive post.

[bririp]

Back in February, having just moved to the GTA, I posted in this thread looking for a reputable company to help me with HVAC. I then proceeded to read through then entire thread, yes from start to finish! I was extremely impressed by the professional people who are prepared to devote many, many hours here to help people. I also think that when you advise on a public forum you really need to know what you are talking about. Those that don't, those that shill and those that drop in very, very occasionally with the sole intent of making a quick buck don't last long.

So I am back to say that I opted to go with Brian Ripchensky from Stouffville Home & Comfort Ltd. They installed a Rinnai tankless hot water system, an American Standard modulating furnace (AUHMB060ACV3VA), a Honeywell TrueSteam humidifier (HM512), an American Standard communicating thermostat, a Rinnai condensing tankless hot water system (RC80), American Standard 2 ton 15 seer air conditioning unit (4A7A5024A1000A) and an American Standard Accuclean hepa air cleaner.

The installation took approx two days, they were great guys to deal with. I haven't had a single ounce of bother with the system since it went in a few weeks ago.

Many people come to Red Flag Deals in search of a deal. I came looking for someone with knowledge, who is respected by his professional peers and competitors and value for money. I expect to be living with this system for many years to come, so it was important to me to get it done right. Stouffville Home & Comfort did it right!

Now I realise to some that I may come across as a shill, which is not the case. I am happy to answer any questions either here or by PM. I'm just one very happy and satisfied customer.

And for anyone new reading this forum, Brian Ripchensky is "Bririp" who started this thread at the begining of 2008.

We appreciate your business very much Joanna, and are grateful for the kind words!

[jhyang23]

Hi,

I just purchased a new house and noticed that there are romex wire & thermometer wire going perpendicularly inside a cold air return.
This particular cold air return is simply a cavity between the floor joists covered with a sheet of metal.
Does this meet the electrical code in Ontario?

Also, the same cold air return is right below the fridge in the kitchen.
I'd like to run a copper tubing through this space so that I can install a fridge water line through the kitchen floor.
Is it okay to run a copper pluming pipe through the cold air return?

Thanks!

[mnye00]

To further explain this, it is a comparison between the amount of heat extracted from a system to the amount of electricity it consumes. Electrical resistant heat (i.e. regular heating element) are considered as having a COP of 1. So that is the base line. Any time a heat pump that is operating at a COP of above 1, it will be using less electricity than an electrical furnace. When you have natural gas as your back-up heat, then you look at 2 variables: the cost of electricity and the cost of natural gas. So you will then have to see what a unit of heat costs you during peak hours and during off-peak hours, and compare it to the cost of the unit of heat generated by natural gas. You might find that operating your heat pump with low COP's during off-peak hours is in fact cheaper than using a gas furnace. The issue becomes one of capacity, because as the COP drops (with the temperature of the outside air), the overall capacity of the heat pump drops too. There are just too may variables to maximize your heat pump's energy usage to justify the added costs of purchasing and maintaining it.

So, Limoges_shopper, I am wondering if this warning means that you generally don't recommend heat pumps? My situation is that I have an 80% efficient gas furnacce in place right now without an a/c unit. We are looking to add cooling to our system via an a/c OR heat pump. We live in an area that averages about -5C in the winter and gets very hot in the summer (we're in Kelowna, BC). The heat pump that I am looking at is the Trane XL15i. My reasons for considering the heat pump over the a/c are the usual - total energy cost money savings, but I am torn because of some of the horror stories I hear from neighbours about the high bills they get with their hp's in place. Also, when I have had HVAC companies over to provide quotes on the system and they have all noted how smalll my furnace is (2.5 tons) for the size of house I have (about 3100 sq ft). This concerns me as I know the sizing of the pump is crucial to maximizing efficiency and needs to be matched to the furnace. The placement of the pump will be right outside our kitchen window and the larger size, potential noise problems and larger initial and maintenance costs are other negatives for the pump.

So, I guess my questions boils down to a/c or heat pump?

Thanks for any advice you can give.

[nighthawk26]

Hi,

I just purchased a new house and noticed that there are romex wire & thermometer wire going perpendicularly inside a cold air return.
This particular cold air return is simply a cavity between the floor joists covered with a sheet of metal.
Does this meet the electrical code in Ontario?

Also, the same cold air return is right below the fridge in the kitchen.
I'd like to run a copper tubing through this space so that I can install a fridge water line through the kitchen floor.
Is it okay to run a copper pluming pipe through the cold air return?

Thanks!

My understanding, you can run pretty much anything through there. As long as there are no connections or terminations hidden in there. So a straight wire in, then through, then out is not an issue.

[Little Tim]

I have a question about basement cold air returns.

Right now our house doesn't have any. Our basement is divided into two zones. One contains an apartment and the other contains a storage room, an office and the furnace room. The office is right next to the furnace room and contains the access to the furnace room through some flimsy bi-fold doors.

Would there be any issues with installing a cold air return in the office? What I'm particularly concerned about is minimum distance to furnace and if there's any safety concerns in that respect.

Our furnace is a brand new high-efficiency Goodman that draws combustion air from outside.

Thanks!

[ghighi]

hi

Recently i bought a townhome.The home has 1400 square foot on 3 levels.Heating is with electrical baseboards and in the living room i have a gas fire place. I am thinking at the beginning to do the duct work.

Aproximately how much a duct work will cost me?
thank you

[bririp]

My understanding, you can run pretty much anything through there. As long as there are no connections or terminations hidden in there. So a straight wire in, then through, then out is not an issue.


You are not allowed to run anything through the duct, or joist space being used as a duct. The fear is if you have a wire running through there and the wire catches on fire, that the smoke will now be distributed through the house via your return air duct. I am not exactly sure on how it is rated, because I believe BX wire is ok, but no other wires, including low voltage. I also do not believe that this is very strictly enforced.

[tommyamaral]

You are not allowed to run anything through the duct, or joist space being used as a duct. The fear is if you have a wire running through there and the wire catches on fire, that the smoke will now be distributed through the house via your return air duct. I am not exactly sure on how it is rated, because I believe BX wire is ok, but no other wires, including low voltage. I also do not believe that this is very strictly enforced.

You are allowed to run through a cold air return, no code issues.

[janaka]

hi

Recently i bought a townhome.The home has 1400 square foot on 3 levels.Heating is with electrical baseboards and in the living room i have a gas fire place. I am thinking at the beginning to do the duct work.

Aproximately how much a duct work will cost me?
thank you
are YOU doing the ductwork or are you having someone do it for you?

[bririp]

hi

Recently i bought a townhome.The home has 1400 square foot on 3 levels.Heating is with electrical baseboards and in the living room i have a gas fire place. I am thinking at the beginning to do the duct work.

Aproximately how much a duct work will cost me?
thank you


Ballpark $4500-$5000 plus the cost of repairing the drywall, building boxes around the new ducts and pipes etc.

[repobox]

Wondering if you can throw some light on a couple of issues I have:

My neighbour has installed a high efficiency furnace that vents out into a narrow concrete alleyway between our properties.
The width of the alleyway is 32" of which 26" is my property.
There are 2 issues. One is the noise and 2 the condensation.
The noise is quite audible in my house and is amplified by the alleyway. The condensation is leaving large puddles of water on the concrete, which freezes in the winter causing frost damage to brick.
The nearest operable window to their vent is 60 inches.

Now you may say that this will all dry up in the summer but that brings me to my second issue. Their air conditioner condensing pipe is attached to the furnace vent with a plastic tie.
So in the summer the alleyway is still puddled with water with the added bonus of mosquitos!

If you could advise me of the code and whether I have grounds to ask them to move the pipe to the other side of their house, where they have at least 7ft between the houses.

Thanks

Bloor/Runnymede Area Toronto

[mnye00]

I am looking at installing a heat pump for my house and had essentially decided on a Trane XL15i but a friend (in the HVAC industry - geothermal) has come to me with an interesting offer. He has a 2-stage 3 ton Carrier heat pump that he bought in 2003 and was "top of the line" at the time but removed it when he bought a geothermal company and installed a geo system. He is on vacation right now and can't access the model number for me. So, I was wondering if anyone knows if the Infinity series existed back then and if so, to what degree has the technology changed since 2003?

It was used for about a year on his house but has been sitting in his garage since then. I trust my friend not to steer me wrong as I know he his highly trustworthy but I just wanted to see if anyone knew what model this might actually be and if it would be a good idea to use this pump. The savings would be around 50% over a new unit (~$2500) but I don't want to go with technology that is seriously outdated. Warranty is obviously an issue but I can get a lot of servicing for $2500. Thanks for any assistance.

[Intense]

Here is my question,

I have a Lennox furnace that is 14 years old now and it had a circuit board get fried and blew the breaker. I was out of town when it happened and an inlaw flicked the breaker back on. For the next 48 hours the furnace would come on but the blower fan would not start at all so then it would shut off. As mentioned this happened for 48 hours or so.

When I returned home I realized that the blower was not coming and there was a heavy oil smell so I shut down the furnace until a repair person came onsite. They came next day and replaced the board but there was still a havy "burnt" oil smell so I called them back and they did a total cleaning of the furnace and replaced nozzels etc. I must admit that the smell has been better but when I come home or the furnace is on to heat up for a while the smell is still very noticable.

Any suggestions as the repair company says that all should be ok when I have never ever smelt the burnt oil smell in the past, and we still have it althought better than it was.

Look forward to your reply and thanks in advance!

[sanrs]

hello, I'm looking for a new furnace. any recommended brand for high efficiency furnace.
I'm in the process of getting the energy audit done so have to get purchase this asap.
appreciate any feedback on brands or dealer contact information.

-Santosh

[nighthawk26]

You are not allowed to run anything through the duct, or joist space being used as a duct. The fear is if you have a wire running through there and the wire catches on fire, that the smoke will now be distributed through the house via your return air duct. I am not exactly sure on how it is rated, because I believe BX wire is ok, but no other wires, including low voltage. I also do not believe that this is very strictly enforced.

I went through permit inspections and had some wires run. ZERO issues. Maybe someone dropped the ball, but I was told if I'm not mistaken even by my electrician you can use the return for pretty much anything. I'm not talking about supply air, just returns. NOTE, I am NOT the authority on this, it's just been my understanding and actual personal experience.

[nighthawk26]

I am looking at installing a heat pump for my house and had essentially decided on a Trane XL15i but a friend (in the HVAC industry - geothermal) has come to me with an interesting offer. He has a 2-stage 3 ton Carrier heat pump that he bought in 2003 and was "top of the line" at the time but removed it when he bought a geothermal company and installed a geo system. He is on vacation right now and can't access the model number for me. So, I was wondering if anyone knows if the Infinity series existed back then and if so, to what degree has the technology changed since 2003?

It was used for about a year on his house but has been sitting in his garage since then. I trust my friend not to steer me wrong as I know he his highly trustworthy but I just wanted to see if anyone knew what model this might actually be and if it would be a good idea to use this pump. The savings would be around 50% over a new unit (~$2500) but I don't want to go with technology that is seriously outdated. Warranty is obviously an issue but I can get a lot of servicing for $2500. Thanks for any assistance.

You will have ZERO warranty, and a unit that is (likely) about 40% less efficient than a current model. I wouldn't even consider this for a second. Frankly I'd consider letting your friend kick me in the head as opposed to taking this "deal".

[bririp]

I went through permit inspections and had some wires run. ZERO issues. Maybe someone dropped the ball, but I was told if I'm not mistaken even by my electrician you can use the return for pretty much anything. I'm not talking about supply air, just returns. NOTE, I am NOT the authority on this, it's just been my understanding and actual personal experience.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/wiring-cold-air-return-duct-695892/2/

All wires run in the plenum must be rated for fire spread, smoke development, etc...It is something that inspectors aren't enforcing, but the rules are there for a reason.

[janaka]

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/wiring-cold-air-return-duct-695892/2/

All wires run in the plenum must be rated for fire spread, smoke development, etc...It is something that inspectors aren't enforcing, but the rules are there for a reason.

He said cold air return not supply though...

[ajslondon]

Complete HVAC newb here. Just put in firm offer on a 1960's sidesplit in London, ON. Approx 1500 sq ft. Currently heated with electric and cooled with wall mounted AC units. Looking to get the house properly ducted and mid-quality furnace/AC installed. Just got a quote today and a had a few questions.

1) Permits required? Called several HVAC companies, all of which said not required for ducting retrofit. However, city inspector over phone firmly states otherwise. Why the discrepancy? should I forego the permit? The contractor who came in to give the quote today says he'd be happy to submit his plans (at additional cost to me). Seemed perplexed and stated he never has in past.

2) Ducting: to minimize openings in current drywall/ceilings, contractor recommends main supply/return trunks through closets located at the split between floors. The upstairs bedrooms would be supplied by ducting in the attic with ceiling registers. Never seen this before. Is this compatible with current HVAC code? Also stated only one large return required per floor as there is ample clearance beneath all doors.

3) Price quoted is $6,200 for ductwork and Concord 70 000 btu furnace (probably builder's grade) and $2,400 for Concord 13SEER AC. Incidentally also quoted $1,490 for GSW 50gal powervent water heater. Everything covered by 10 year parts, 1 year labor. Does this seem like reasonable pricing? I realize that there are significantly better components out there but budget is tight at the moment. We could probably budget another 1-2K if really worthwhile. Our priority at this point is mostly durability/longevity vs max efficiency/comfort.

4) Does anyone know any reputable HVAC installers in London? Any recommendations would obviously be very much appreciated.

5) In terms of energy efficiency, the house also needs a few windows. Most windows updated to double pane but 3 basement windows are single pane with outside storm windows. There is also a large single pane bay window in the living room. All windows seem properly caulked and in good condition. My conundrum is that I don't have the budget to do both the HVAC and the windows. Gut feeling is that HVAC will probably increase my energy savings vs. doing the windows. Anybody beg to differ?

I appreciate your comments!

[mnye00]

You will have ZERO warranty, and a unit that is (likely) about 40% less efficient than a current model. I wouldn't even consider this for a second. Frankly I'd consider letting your friend kick me in the head as opposed to taking this "deal".

I already kind of made my decision to go with a new unit, but thanks for the input nighthawk. I'll need to ask if the kick to the head is an option though :lol:

[nighthawk26]

I already kind of made my decision to go with a new unit, but thanks for the input nighthawk. I'll need to ask if the kick to the head is an option though :lol:

Hahaha.. let me clerify them. I did not mean kick ME... I meant kick you! Good call on the new unit though!

[janaka]

Hahaha.. let me clerify them. I did not mean kick ME... I meant kick you! Good call on the new unit though!

And here I was going to volunteer to kick you... damnit...

[Possum77]

He said cold air return not supply though...

you can run whatever you want, but by code you have to run plenum wires in ANY duct space.
it's not really enforced but some sneaky building inspectors might find it when you are trying to sell house, for example.

[taysan]

Any recommendations on duct supply shops? I'd rather buy somewhere other than HD/RONA/Lowes. I need to put in a short section of flexible duct.

I'm moving the location of a 5 inch round run going up from my finished basement to the 2nd floor through the kitchen which I just gutted - the duct is below the floor joists, so the only thing I can get in there is either lots of short sections or a flexible line.

I'd like it to be the best quality longest lasting flexible duct possible, and the stuff at HD looks like crap (clear plastic liner with insulation sleeve). Or is that the standard?

[ajslondon]

Complete HVAC newb here. Just put in firm offer on a 1960's sidesplit in London, ON. Approx 1500 sq ft. Currently heated with electric and cooled with wall mounted AC units. Looking to get the house properly ducted and mid-quality furnace/AC installed. Just got a quote today and a had a few questions.

Any advice guys?

I've since got a few more quotes and found a Carrier HVAC installer I'm fairly comfortable dealing with. He's quoted $3000 for ductwork including heat calcs, mech plans, city permit, ESA electrical. Sounds competent and longtime family business in London. He convinced me ducting in attic is a bad idea and proposes taking down ceiling in third level. His guess for framing soffits/bulkheads and drywall is $1500. He's offering three options for furnace/AC components:

1) 58MVC080 ICS 3 stage furnace ($5000) and 24APA5024 AC (3700$) w infinity Tstat, media filter, 15/15 warranty
2) 58UVB060 2 stage furnace ($3700) and 24ACC6024 AC (3200$) w Edge Tstat, media filter, 15/15 warranty
3) Same furnace as 2) with 24ABB3024 AC ($2500) w Edge Tstat, media filter, 15/15 warranty

Option 1 sounds awesome, but after adding the install of a gas water tank ($1500) and taxes, the whole job is costing close to $17K and definitely pushing the boundaries of our budget. Option 3 at $14K is much more comfortable but the dealer himself advises against the base model AC. I'm leaning mostly toward option 2 at $15K but am wondering what real-world difference I will notice between this and the infinity system. Anyone here well versed in Carrier gear? I understand I'll be losing the fancy controls and the humidistat function of the infinity, but is there anything else I'm losing by saving $2K?

I appreciate any help. This is a huge purchase for us and the single large reno we'll be doing to the house for the next few years. With my wife's athsma/allergies, I want to provide a clean/comfortable environment without paying excessively for gimmicks. After talking to 15+ installers/dealers I feel there's an awful lot of conflicting information/misinformation out there in terms of HVAC.

[Jeremy_H_Chan]

Anyone know about optimizing the efficiency of a restaurant HVAC system and if there are any government rebates to help pay for this type of work? I recently bought a restaurant in Aurora (north of Toronto) and I know that the existing set-up is really inefficient. I have a long (30 foot) hood with only 16-17 feet of cooking equipment under it that is drawing out 5000 CFM irregardless of how much cooking we are doing. There are two 5 ton air conditioners on the roof and one make-up air unit has a heating coil but no air-conditioner. The resturant is open-concept with a kitchen open to the customer seating area, and a small back area for prep and storage. One other item of note is that the roof is very high (24-30 feet) which might play into the answers for the questions below.

I've done some reading on this and was wondering about:
- Would installing ceiling fans help? Should they be run all year round or only in certain seasons? And in what direction (Push air down or draw air up?)
- Without changing the installed equipment can I install something that will allow the fans to operate at variable speeds depending on the situation in the kitchen? Is there some machine that will automatically make this adjustment or is it something that is manually controlled (And if there are both, what are the pro's and con's of each)
- With summer coming around one high priority is reducing my upcomming air conditioning costs. What can I do? Last year with both air conditioners at 100% my dining area was getting too warm (high 70's F with humidity in the 60s). I think it was at least partially because of the make up air being on the roof and not high enough off the ground, and it pushing 4500CFM of warm moist outside air into the restaurant.

Any referals on a good HVAC company or LEED consultant that won't charge me a arm or a leg to improve things here?

Thanks,

Jeremy

[k.pal1]

Hi Guys,
I want to purchase new A/C unit for my house having 1600SQ .Could you tell me which one is the best for price and energy efficient. or any good deal going in the market , please let me know. Appreciated in advance for your guidance. FYI my house in Brampton North East.

[Hexavalent]

The installer would need to come to your house to size the potential unit for you and you should go with at least a 14.5 SEER for energy efficiency since that is where Energy Star air conditioners start at.

[JudyBlue]

We are fairly certain that direct vent is the best water heater option for us when we replace our furnace with a high-efficiancy model, but why is it so difficult to find anyone that sells them if there are numerous advantages over the power vented models?

We would rather not wait for a special order from the big box stores, can anyone recommend a dealer and possibly installer?

Thanks,
Judy

[Hexavalent]

I'm just curious as to why you seem so set on a direct vent? I can't really see any reason for it unless you have special circumstances in your home.

[bririp]

Direct vent is a great solution for most homes. It stops the home from entering in a negative pressure while also not using electricity. They are quiet, efficient (when it comes to water heaters), and bring in better quality air for combustion, this will help the unit last longer. You do pay a premium for this, but the value is there in the long term.

In a lot of situations, tankless water heaters are a better option (IN MY OPINION).

[bririp]

Hi Guys,
I want to purchase new A/C unit for my house having 1600SQ .Could you tell me which one is the best for price and energy efficient. or any good deal going in the market , please let me know. Appreciated in advance for your guidance. FYI my house in Brampton North East.

Hello K.pal and welcome to RFD!

In terms of efficiency, you would want to look at the "seer" rating. This describe the cost involved to cool your home. The higher the seer rating, the lower the cost. There is a trend that happens where you will find the best value. For example, most companies offer the best value at the 15 seer rating. By value I mean the up front cost, and the cost of operating the unit over the years.

[JudyBlue]

I'm just curious as to why you seem so set on a direct vent? I can't really see any reason for it unless you have special circumstances in your home.

In our case the water heater is only about a foot away from the exterior wall, so it just seems like there is no reason to go with a power vent model when we don't need the power venting. Having a fan only increases the chance for something to breakdown, so this just seems pointless when its not necessary. Also with a direct vent we won't lose out hot water in case of a blackout (though likely not a real concern) and no extra electricity costs. I've also heard they can be noisy and we will have a tenant in our basement. I do want to make sure we meet all the direct vent requirements though, because we will have a deck adjacent to the water heater, so not sure if this complicates things.

Re: tankless, I am not thrilled with having to spend the extra money and have to wait a few minutes for the hot water to kick in. I've read a few articles linked from redflagdeals that suggest they may not live up to all the hype.

But any further advice is much appreciated!

[Little Tim]

I have a question about basement cold air returns.

Right now our house doesn't have any. Our basement is divided into two zones. One contains an apartment and the other contains a storage room, an office and the furnace room. The office is right next to the furnace room and contains the access to the furnace room through some flimsy bi-fold doors.

Would there be any issues with installing a cold air return in the office? What I'm particularly concerned about is minimum distance to furnace and if there's any safety concerns in that respect.

Our furnace is a brand new high-efficiency Goodman that draws combustion air from outside.

Thanks!

Anyone with insights on the above question?

Thanks!

[bonerhaus]

Anyone with insights on the above question?

Thanks!

How close is the furnace? You will want to make sure that you run the cold air off the right section of return air duct work and also that you don't make it too large. Being the closest return air to the furnace it will draw air easier and more noise will be transferred through the cold air return.

[janaka]

Anyone with insights on the above question?

Thanks!

There are no safety concerns with adding an additional cold air return to the office. UNLESS its soo large that the occupant gets sucked INTO the furnace, but thats not too likely. ;)

[bririp]

There are no safety concerns with adding an additional cold air return to the office. UNLESS its soo large that the occupant gets sucked INTO the furnace, but thats not too likely. ;)

haha

[ajslondon]

Any advice guys?

I've since got a few more quotes and found a Carrier HVAC installer I'm fairly comfortable dealing with. He's quoted $3000 for ductwork including heat calcs, mech plans, city permit, ESA electrical. Sounds competent and longtime family business in London. He convinced me ducting in attic is a bad idea and proposes taking down ceiling in third level. His guess for framing soffits/bulkheads and drywall is $1500. He's offering three options for furnace/AC components:

1) 58MVC080 ICS 3 stage furnace ($5000) and 24APA5024 AC (3700$) w infinity Tstat, media filter, 15/15 warranty
2) 58UVB060 2 stage furnace ($3700) and 24ACC6024 AC (3200$) w Edge Tstat, media filter, 15/15 warranty
3) Same furnace as 2) with 24ABB3024 AC ($2500) w Edge Tstat, media filter, 15/15 warranty

Option 1 sounds awesome, but after adding the install of a gas water tank ($1500) and taxes, the whole job is costing close to $17K and definitely pushing the boundaries of our budget. Option 3 at $14K is much more comfortable but the dealer himself advises against the base model AC. I'm leaning mostly toward option 2 at $15K but am wondering what real-world difference I will notice between this and the infinity system. Anyone here well versed in Carrier gear? I understand I'll be losing the fancy controls and the humidistat function of the infinity, but is there anything else I'm losing by saving $2K?

I appreciate any help. This is a huge purchase for us and the single large reno we'll be doing to the house for the next few years. With my wife's athsma/allergies, I want to provide a clean/comfortable environment without paying excessively for gimmicks. After talking to 15+ installers/dealers I feel there's an awful lot of conflicting information/misinformation out there in terms of HVAC.

Sorry for the re-post guys, can anyone offer any advice concerning this?

[bririp]

Sorry for the re-post guys, can anyone offer any advice concerning this?

There are many ways to skin a cat. First and foremost I think you should find a contractor that is willing to show you all of the options, or the ones that make sense, and that you trust. There are probably a lot of "right" answers and several of them would be good solutions. Find a contractor that you feel is honest and is trustworthy, and work with them. If you try to speak to too many contractors, friends, people on websites....you are going to confuse yourself and make it more difficult.

I am sorry, I don't know any contractors out that way...maybe janaka or nighthawk will because they are closer to you.

[shingor6]

Hi, I want to purchase a wall A/C, there's a lot of brand out there, I see some 13 seer unit rated at 12000 BTU that goes for 3k$, and other 17seer rated at 18000btu for 1500$. So I want to know which brand offer the best bang for the buck.

I saw a lot of toshiba, panasonic, hitachi compressor, are they any good?

I saw some carrier and daikin, are they overpriced?

So which brand should I absolutly avoid?

[bririp]

Anyone with insights on the above question?

Thanks!


The main concern you will have is the noise, and loss of air suction pressure throughout the rest of the house. you should be at least 6 linear feet of duct away from the furnace before taking a take off... however the most important thing is the size of the opening that is cut, the size of the opening in the duct, and the pipe/material you use. These should be sized properly. When you are adding a r/a you have to make sure the duct can handle it as most duct systems are designed to minimum specifications, and you dont want to affect the r/a on the upper floor!

[DipSheet2]

Hi,

I have a radiant floor heating system for heat in the basement. It uses a boiler that also heats the domestic hot water through an indirect water heater.

Recently the pressure relief valve in the main system loop started discharging water. The first thought I had was that the valve was defective so I replaced it, however the new valve (30 PSI same as old one) is doing the same thing. Is there a possibility that the expansion tank is no longer working. Does the expansion tank leak air after a number of years and need to be refilled, the system has been working about 6 or 7 years now.

I notice the water discharging from the relief valve mainly after a hot water or or floor heating demand cycle. Also tried lowering Hi temp on boiler to 180 F and Lo temp to 160 F, which did not help either.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

[DipSheet2]

^^ Anyone able to offer any advice?

[repobox]

Very disappointed in this site/thread.
Not even the decencyy to asnwer my question,

[bririp]

Wondering if you can throw some light on a couple of issues I have:

My neighbour has installed a high efficiency furnace that vents out into a narrow concrete alleyway between our properties.
The width of the alleyway is 32" of which 26" is my property.
There are 2 issues. One is the noise and 2 the condensation.
The noise is quite audible in my house and is amplified by the alleyway. The condensation is leaving large puddles of water on the concrete, which freezes in the winter causing frost damage to brick.
The nearest operable window to their vent is 60 inches.

Now you may say that this will all dry up in the summer but that brings me to my second issue. Their air conditioner condensing pipe is attached to the furnace vent with a plastic tie.
So in the summer the alleyway is still puddled with water with the added bonus of mosquitos!

If you could advise me of the code and whether I have grounds to ask them to move the pipe to the other side of their house, where they have at least 7ft between the houses.

Thanks

Bloor/Runnymede Area Toronto

Is the pipe insulated? if it is a shared walkway, the pipe should be 7' above the ground and insulated if the pipe is longer than 3' outside. I do not believe that there is a code that allows your to ask for it to be moved. Chances are this may have been the only place for it to be installed. Furnaces below 100,000 btu only are required to be 12" away from an operable window or door.

In a lot of scenarios, even where your property line would go right to the house, the house would have an easement over your property to allow for things like this. A lot of the homes before didn't have these issues as they were less efficient, plus they would go up the chimney.

If you would like, take a picture and post it and we can review it more.

[bririp]

Very disappointed in this site/thread.
Not even the decencyy to asnwer my question,


Hello Repobox...

geez you are being a little bit harsh here! This site is not a paid service, or a rite!

Most of the contributors on this site do so in their spare time to try to help people out. I get many many messages, and posts to respond to, and so does Janaka, Nighthawk and the other pros on this site.

If a post goes un-notice, or un-answered, maybe send somebody a message, or post a NICE reminder, this will usually work better than shaming people...my 2 cents

[DipSheet2]

Hi,

I have a radiant floor heating system for heat in the basement. It uses a boiler that also heats the domestic hot water through an indirect water heater.

Recently the pressure relief valve in the main system loop started discharging water. The first thought I had was that the valve was defective so I replaced it, however the new valve (30 PSI same as old one) is doing the same thing. Is there a possibility that the expansion tank is no longer working. Does the expansion tank leak air after a number of years and need to be refilled, the system has been working about 6 or 7 years now.

I notice the water discharging from the relief valve mainly after a hot water or or floor heating demand cycle. Also tried lowering Hi temp on boiler to 180 F and Lo temp to 160 F, which did not help either.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

To help others that may experience the same problem, I'll answer my own question as I managed to find some info elsewhere.

Turns out it was the expansion tank, I checked the pressure gauge on the boiler and had it had a reading of 28 PSI. I released the pressure using the lever on the pressure relief valve, then noticed it went back to about 12 PSI (which is what's supplied by the feed water regulator).

Took the cap off the air valve on the bottom of the expansion tank, and noticed that water came out when I tried to release some air from the expansion tank. So the membrane in the expansion tank has a leak.

Will get a new expansion tank on Monday and I'm fairly confident that will fix the problem with the water spurting from the pressure relief valve.

Added:

Replacing expansion tank seems to have solved the problem. No more water leaking or spurting from the pressure relief valve (three days now).

The new tank's instructions indicate that the tank and pressure should be checked annually (maybe a pressure loss of the tank's air cushion can cause the tank's bladder to rupture).

[serpico]

Hi,
We are looking at replacing an almost 15 year old Trane XE 90 furnace and A/C unit and need recommendations for a good HVAC contractor/maintenance provider in Oakville or surrounding area. I have checked HomeStars and found a few potential businesses but just wanted to get some referrals from fellow RFDers. Looking at York/Coleman and Trane/American Standard based on the feedback in this forum.

[bririp]

To help others that may experience the same problem, I'll answer my own question as I managed to find some info elsewhere.

Turns out it was the expansion tank, I checked the pressure gauge on the boiler and had it had a reading of 28 PSI. I released the pressure using the lever on the pressure relief valve, then noticed it went back to about 12 PSI (which is what's supplied by the feed water regulator).

Took the cap off the air valve on the bottom of the expansion tank, and noticed that water came out when I tried to release some air from the expansion tank. So the membrane in the expansion tank has a leak.

Will get a new expansion tank on Monday and I'm fairly confident that will fix the problem with the water spurting from the pressure relief valve.

Let us know how it worked out!

[bririp]

New Group buy posted for A/C units. Get your demands in and lets work out another successful RFD group buy with Stouffville Home & Comfort Ltd.

[GTT1]

Just had a bad experience with my thermostat (Honeywell RTH4300B)

Returned from 1 week vacation to find screen blank and furnace not working. Thermostat's window had msg to replace batteries. The unit instructions indicate that a warning will advise of low battery power around 120 days before failure. This did not happen and to check I inserted a couple of used batteries from a flashlight that were obviously failing and they powered the thermostat but did not give the msg to replace them.

Batteries were replaced in November last year and were Duracell Alkaline. I had specifically replaced them then because we had planned on spending 3 months away for the winter. We never went but it is scary to think that a thermostat can shut down because of an inexpensive couple of batteries.

We actually would have probably been better off with them failing then because on extended trips we have someone check the house every couple days and shut water off and water heater to vacation mode. We don't normally bother when going away for a week. I guess in future we will at least shut down the water and switch the water heater to vacation, although I have been told that if you open the laundry tub hot water tap it will ensure the water heater doesn't over pressure and placing on vacation mode is not necessary.

I never had a problem at our previous house with the old Honeywell we had and I recall the batteries lasting for years and replacing them when they died and wouldn't run the light but the last setting was maintained and the ac/furnace continued to operate.

Are there units on the market that draw power from the furnaces 24 volt supply somehow to allow the unit to continue to work should the batteries fail?


Looking for suggestions

I had set up a new thread for this but want to ensure someone like BRIRIP sees and provides his expertise.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/thermostat-battery-problems-want-hard-wired-one-1029792/#post12768323

[janaka]

Hello Repobox...

geez you are being a little bit harsh here! This site is not a paid service, or a rite!

Most of the contributors on this site do so in their spare time to try to help people out. I get many many messages, and posts to respond to, and so does Janaka, Nighthawk and the other pros on this site.

If a post goes un-notice, or un-answered, maybe send somebody a message, or post a NICE reminder, this will usually work better than shaming people...my 2 cents

x2
I haven't been online in almost a week due to my life being busy with things, heaven forbid we don't wake up and check RFD to give free advice in our free time. :facepalm:
You get more help with sugar than vinegar I can tell you that much. :)

[bririp]

Just had a bad experience with my thermostat (Honeywell RTH4300B)

Returned from 1 week vacation to find screen blank and furnace not working. Thermostat's window had msg to replace batteries. The unit instructions indicate that a warning will advise of low battery power around 120 days before failure. This did not happen and to check I inserted a couple of used batteries from a flashlight that were obviously failing and they powered the thermostat but did not give the msg to replace them.

Batteries were replaced in November last year and were Duracell Alkaline. I had specifically replaced them then because we had planned on spending 3 months away for the winter. We never went but it is scary to think that a thermostat can shut down because of an inexpensive couple of batteries.

We actually would have probably been better off with them failing then because on extended trips we have someone check the house every couple days and shut water off and water heater to vacation mode. We don't normally bother when going away for a week. I guess in future we will at least shut down the water and switch the water heater to vacation, although I have been told that if you open the laundry tub hot water tap it will ensure the water heater doesn't over pressure and placing on vacation mode is not necessary.

I never had a problem at our previous house with the old Honeywell we had and I recall the batteries lasting for years and replacing them when they died and wouldn't run the light but the last setting was maintained and the ac/furnace continued to operate.

Are there units on the market that draw power from the furnaces 24 volt supply somehow to allow the unit to continue to work should the batteries fail?


Looking for suggestions

I had set up a new thread for this but want to ensure someone like BRIRIP sees and provides his expertise.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/thermostat-battery-problems-want-hard-wired-one-1029792/#post12768323

Hello GTT1,

Most thermostats can be wired to be powered by the furnace, with batteries acting as a back-up. This usually required a new wire to be fished up to the thermostat location as it now needs at least 5 wires for a single stage, or a 6-wire for a two stage unit. This is how we usually do the jobs where possible.

In terms of why it isn't showing the warning, I am not sure, but I am not surprised.
Hope this helps

[Schlampah]

What is a better furnace deal? Oil to gas - cash deals for furnace install + a run of about 45 feet of Gas line through open ceiling in basement, + bbq line (6feet to wall)

1) RHEEM RGRM6 - 2 stage, 60000btu, 95 % DC Variable motor, $3600 ($3900 with humidifier)

2) Goodman GVH95 - 2 stage 95%, 70,000btu , normal motor, $3400 (including humidifier)


Which is a better deal? how much $$$ does the DC really save you in hydro costs?

Is it true I can get a $250 rebate from the province?

[nighthawk26]

Very disappointed in this site/thread.
Not even the decencyy to asnwer my question,

6 posts, I bet you have given a lot to this board.

People like you are WHY I'm not here as often. Ungreatful, selfish, demanding, and at the end of the day, your'e the same guy who after all my help will buy from someone else who saves you $50 bucks! Sorry, what was your question? Wait... don't care anymore!

[nighthawk26]

What is a better furnace deal? Oil to gas - cash deals for furnace install + a run of about 45 feet of Gas line through open ceiling in basement, + bbq line (6feet to wall)

1) RHEEM RGRM6 - 2 stage, 60000btu, 95 % DC Variable motor, $3600 ($3900 with humidifier)

2) Goodman GVH95 - 2 stage 95%, 70,000btu , normal motor, $3400 (including humidifier)


Which is a better deal? how much $$$ does the DC really save you in hydro costs?

Is it true I can get a $250 rebate from the province?

DC will save you a lot and will also give you more balanced temps in the house. Anyone not buyin ga DC with todays hydro cost increases makes ZERO sense to me, ESPECIALLY when you're looking at a $200 price difference. And yes there is a $250 rebate so it's less. That motor will save you that difference in the first year or so alone if you run the fan all the time (which you should).

[bitcorp]

Hi!

Based on the number of postings on this thread - you guys are hot!

I have a 25 year old ICG furnace. I noticed a few days ago that both the furnace and AC were coming on at the same time. The reason I say that the AC is
also coming on is because I can hear the AC unit outside the house running. The system switch is set to Heat and the fan switch is set to Auto.
I thought it may be the thermostat, so that was replaced - the old one was a White Rodgers, and the new one is a Honeywell. Even after the thermostat
the problem persists - the furnace comes on and the AC unit outside runs. I would appreciate any insight into the problem.

Thanks!

[bririp]

Hi!

Based on the number of postings on this thread - you guys are hot!

I have a 25 year old ICG furnace. I noticed a few days ago that both the furnace and AC were coming on at the same time. The reason I say that the AC is
also coming on is because I can hear the AC unit outside the house running. The system switch is set to Heat and the fan switch is set to Auto.
I thought it may be the thermostat, so that was replaced - the old one was a White Rodgers, and the new one is a Honeywell. Even after the thermostat
the problem persists - the furnace comes on and the AC unit outside runs. I would appreciate any insight into the problem.

Thanks!

The first thing I would check would be the thermostat. It sounds like there is a short somewhere...very hard to diagnose without seeing it in person.

[Gee]

I want to replace my electric stove with gas

How much would it cost me to get this line installed?

Since I am doing this, I am also considering a gas line for the BBQ

[JoanieLim]

Hi there

Thanks to all for keeping up with this thread and providing countless help!

We are in need to install our furnace and are looking around for quotes and recommendations ... our Carrier has officially died due to a heat exchanger problem (seems common?) and DE has came by to shut if off due to a carbon monoxide leak.

We would like to possibly get a tankless system as well ... and looking into misc other things. But really, the furnace is the major factor here.

Please send me a PM if you can give an estimate / recommendation.

Thanks.

BTW, I reside in Mississauga.

[Trizi]

Why are you not putting in a forced air natural gas system? I would bluntly say that you are going to get raped with electrical charges running electric baseboards in the short term, long term and in every way possible. DO NOT BUILD NEW WITH ELECTRIC HEAT.

That said I agree that for a two story you would need two separate units as ductless units are more of an "area" cooler than a complete solution. If you keep doors closed those areas will not get cooled/heated by a ductless unit. Its possible you may get "some" cooling to fall down a stair well to the main level from upstairs but you will not be comfortable IMO. But first and foremost DO NOT GO ELECTRIC HEAT.

Hi there - You probably already know this. I've been doing some research and Ductless Heat Pumps aren't the same as Electric Baseboards. Manufacturers and contractors say they are highly efficient.

I guess it depends on the model too, but here's a chart comparing annual heating costs. http://www.cozyworld.ca/zuba-central-heat-pump.html

[janaka]

Hi there - You probably already know this. I've been doing some research and Ductless Heat Pumps aren't the same as Electric Baseboards. Manufacturers and contractors say they are highly efficient.

I guess it depends on the model too, but here's a chart comparing annual heating costs. http://www.cozyworld.ca/zuba-central-heat-pump.html

I'm sorry but where did I say electric baseboards were the same as ductless HP's?
Considering I sell ductless and HVAC in general I'm quite aware of their respective efficiencies.

In that specific post I was saying that electrical source of heat (baseboards OR ductless) is not recommended due to the every increasing cost of hydro.

[gvox2014]

I just had installed a Goodman (EverRest) GMVC950704CX furnace installed along with 14 seer 2 ton A/C (not sure the model, too cold to go check lol)

The first installers hooked up a single-stage White-Rodgers thermostat, saying that it was all I needed and all the features of the furnace would be controlled by the board at the furnace.

Something didn't sit right with me, though, knowing from researching the furnace in the first place, that I should probably have a two-stage thermostat to run my 2-stage variable speed furnace. So I did even more research using my model number and decided to demand a two-stage thermostat.

So..they came back and installed a White Rodgers 1F85-0422 thermostat, and reset the timer on the furnace to run on low longer. The guy was adamant and kept stressing however that I was not going to notice any difference and that the thermostat wasn't going to do any more for me than the single stage one did.

Now with the new thermostat, the furnace always does the same thing..runs on low for about 6 minutes, then fires up to hi, and I guess the fan also speeds up (hard to tell with the furnace blowing high). It never changes, and then I discovered this: if I jack the heat, it doesn't bypass the low stage setting and go straight to high. Hmm, I said, that sounds like the thermostat is therefore STILL having absolutely no control over the 2 stages. So I decide to read some more and I find out that there are supposed to be 5 wires for a 2-stage thermostat. When I got the install, they said I had 3 and had to run a fourth. That was what they hooked up to the single-stage thermostat.

So I assumed, naturally, that when I popped off the new thermostat I would find 5 wires, that the guy who came to put in the new one ran a new wire: Wrong, he didn't. He hooked up the following: white to the W/E, black to the Y2, green to the G, and the red he hooked into the RC (which of course is jumpered to RH from the factory). When I look at the wiring diagram for this thermostat, it clearly shows that the W2 terminal is to control stage 2. Since there's no wire hooked up to it, I guess the thermostat isn't controlling the second stage, right?

I also noticed that there was no wire hooked up to the Y terminal and read that it is for the first stage for 2 stage A/C, but I'm not even sure if I have 2 stage A/c so let's concentrate on the heat for now..

Did they just try and trick me here, again?? If it's wired the same way as a single stage thermostat with 4 wires, and there's no wire to the W2, doesn't that mean that the thermostat is having nothing to do with the staging, and that it's all still being done at the furnace? Isnt the biggest clue is that the FA override (the one that fires up stage 2 immediately if you jack the thing more than 5 degrees) doesn't work

I paid, with taxes, 9000 for this setup. Why would they skimp on simply running that 5th wire??

[nighthawk26]

I just had installed a Goodman (EverRest) GMVC950704CX furnace installed along with 14 seer 2 ton A/C (not sure the model, too cold to go check lol)

The first installers hooked up a single-stage White-Rodgers thermostat, saying that it was all I needed and all the features of the furnace would be controlled by the board at the furnace.

Something didn't sit right with me, though, knowing from researching the furnace in the first place, that I should probably have a two-stage thermostat to run my 2-stage variable speed furnace. So I did even more research using my model number and decided to demand a two-stage thermostat.

So..they came back and installed a White Rodgers 1F85-0422 thermostat, and reset the timer on the furnace to run on low longer. The guy was adamant and kept stressing however that I was not going to notice any difference and that the thermostat wasn't going to do any more for me than the single stage one did.

Now with the new thermostat, the furnace always does the same thing..runs on low for about 6 minutes, then fires up to hi, and I guess the fan also speeds up (hard to tell with the furnace blowing high). It never changes, and then I discovered this: if I jack the heat, it doesn't bypass the low stage setting and go straight to high. Hmm, I said, that sounds like the thermostat is therefore STILL having absolutely no control over the 2 stages. So I decide to read some more and I find out that there are supposed to be 5 wires for a 2-stage thermostat. When I got the install, they said I had 3 and had to run a fourth. That was what they hooked up to the single-stage thermostat.

So I assumed, naturally, that when I popped off the new thermostat I would find 5 wires, that the guy who came to put in the new one ran a new wire: Wrong, he didn't. He hooked up the

following: white to the W/E, black to the Y2, green to the G, and the red he hooked into the RC (which of course is jumpered to RH from the factory). When I look at the wiring diagram for this thermostat, it clearly shows that the W2 terminal is to control stage 2. Since there's no wire hooked up to it, I guess the thermostat isn't controlling the second stage, right?

I also noticed that there was no wire hooked up to the Y terminal and read that it is for the first stage for 2 stage A/C, but I'm not even sure if I have 2 stage A/c so let's concentrate on the heat for now..

Did they just try and trick me here, again?? If it's wired the same way as a single stage thermostat with 4 wires, and there's no wire to the W2, doesn't that mean that the thermostat is having nothing to do with the staging, and that it's all still being done at the furnace? Isnt the biggest clue is that the FA override (the one that fires up stage 2 immediately if you jack the thing more than 5 degrees) doesn't work

I paid, with taxes, 9000 for this setup. Why would they skimp on simply running that 5th wire??

WOW WOW WOW to that price. Reading through, all I kept thinking was here's another quality Goodman install from another craptacular company. Then I saw the price. Again, WOW. You have to have a 5 wire. All they did was parallel the W1 and W2 I'd bet. They could have run you a wire of silver fo rthe 5th wire and you still paid more than you should have. That said.. .whats done is done so lets concentrate on the simple fact that these idiots are just that. Get them back there for sure to do the damn job properly. I HATE reading crap like that. You pay 9k so yuo can read through manuals and try to understand things for yourself. Call, and raise bloody hell!

[bririp]

I just had installed a Goodman (EverRest) GMVC950704CX furnace installed along with 14 seer 2 ton A/C (not sure the model, too cold to go check lol)

The first installers hooked up a single-stage White-Rodgers thermostat, saying that it was all I needed and all the features of the furnace would be controlled by the board at the furnace.

Something didn't sit right with me, though, knowing from researching the furnace in the first place, that I should probably have a two-stage thermostat to run my 2-stage variable speed furnace. So I did even more research using my model number and decided to demand a two-stage thermostat.

So..they came back and installed a White Rodgers 1F85-0422 thermostat, and reset the timer on the furnace to run on low longer. The guy was adamant and kept stressing however that I was not going to notice any difference and that the thermostat wasn't going to do any more for me than the single stage one did.

Now with the new thermostat, the furnace always does the same thing..runs on low for about 6 minutes, then fires up to hi, and I guess the fan also speeds up (hard to tell with the furnace blowing high). It never changes, and then I discovered this: if I jack the heat, it doesn't bypass the low stage setting and go straight to high. Hmm, I said, that sounds like the thermostat is therefore STILL having absolutely no control over the 2 stages. So I decide to read some more and I find out that there are supposed to be 5 wires for a 2-stage thermostat. When I got the install, they said I had 3 and had to run a fourth. That was what they hooked up to the single-stage thermostat.

So I assumed, naturally, that when I popped off the new thermostat I would find 5 wires, that the guy who came to put in the new one ran a new wire: Wrong, he didn't. He hooked up the following: white to the W/E, black to the Y2, green to the G, and the red he hooked into the RC (which of course is jumpered to RH from the factory). When I look at the wiring diagram for this thermostat, it clearly shows that the W2 terminal is to control stage 2. Since there's no wire hooked up to it, I guess the thermostat isn't controlling the second stage, right?

I also noticed that there was no wire hooked up to the Y terminal and read that it is for the first stage for 2 stage A/C, but I'm not even sure if I have 2 stage A/c so let's concentrate on the heat for now..

Did they just try and trick me here, again?? If it's wired the same way as a single stage thermostat with 4 wires, and there's no wire to the W2, doesn't that mean that the thermostat is having nothing to do with the staging, and that it's all still being done at the furnace? Isnt the biggest clue is that the FA override (the one that fires up stage 2 immediately if you jack the thing more than 5 degrees) doesn't work

I paid, with taxes, 9000 for this setup. Why would they skimp on simply running that 5th wire??

There is a cost associated with running a new wire. Some houses it can be simple, some houses it can be very difficult. For $9000 for the goodman units, you should have had the 5-wire run included. Now having said this, did the contractor give you the option to have this done and you declined due to costs?

If the contractor offered this and you declined, we should be fair to the contractor...if he told you you were getting a 2-stage thermostat and not wired it up as a two stage, this is wrong.

[gvox2014]

Thanks everyone for the help thus far. I do also believe in full disclosure, as you say there are alot of variables in an install. Here was mine, but before I list it, I want to repeat the fact that they had to run new wires. They even cut a hole in my drywall to do so, behind where the baseboard is. And guess what?? IT'S A FIVE WIRE snake. There's an extra orange wire that is not only not connected at the t-stat, it's also hanging loose down at the furnace board.

Furnace: GMVC950704CXAC
A/C: SSX140241BA
Humidifier: General Aire 1042
External filter & Rack + 2 extra basic filters
Condensate pump
Chimney Liner
10 y