Anyone taking/have taken the LSAT?

[AirplaneKing]

I signed up today for the Feb 2009 session, wondering if anybody is currently taking it and would like to share study habits, problems, etc. And for anyone who has already taken it, how was your experience with it? What score did you get? If you could have done anything differently, what would it be?

So far I'm using Master the LSAT (for RC and the 4 full practice LSATs), Logic Games Bible, Logical Reasoning Bible, and 20 practice LSATs.

About a third through Logic Games Bible, and I'm struggling with making the subtle inferences with linear games...which is bad because they're the easiest ones :confused:

[Octavius]

I signed up today for the Feb 2009 session, wondering if anybody is currently taking it and would like to share study habits, problems, etc. And for anyone who has already taken it, how was your experience with it? What score did you get? If you could have done anything differently, what would it be?

So far I'm using Master the LSAT (for RC and the 4 full practice LSATs), Logic Games Bible, Logical Reasoning Bible, and 20 practice LSATs.

About a third through Logic Games Bible, and I'm struggling with making the subtle inferences with linear games...which is bad because they're the easiest ones :confused:

I'm writing in October, my study guides are exactly the same as yours.

[forgamez]

i ll be writing in October. Got 163 in June, but aiming for 170+. Made tons of stupid mistakes and the comparative reading section threw me for a loop.

Don't worry about the games. The Games bible is definitely the best tool out there for this section. The recent LSATs have really dialed down the difficulty in this section. I was struggling at first, but got only -1 in that section on the real test. Really this section became a joke.

I find that the only good books are the Bibles. All the other material has been frustrating because the questions are sometimes not representative of the real test.

Just do all of the real prep tests. There are like 50+ of them. With so much time until Feb. , you should be able to do all the tests twice over. Also, you must time yourself when practicing.

With adequate practice, I think most people should be able to get 160+ at minimum.

[Free Willy]

I'd planned to take the LSAT this summer, but decided to wait another year. It seems that the LR and LG Bibles from PowerScore are the most popular study materials. What was your diagnostic score, if you don't mind me asking? And you probably already know this, but I've found the forums at lawstudents.ca (http://www.lawstudents.ca/forums/), top-law-schools.com (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/index.php) and lawschooldiscussion.org (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/) to be very helpful.

[help_questions]

I think I am going to write in Oct. Studying will start in August.

[scottmcl]

What year of studies are you guys in? I was curious as to when most people take the LSTAT, and how long in advance they have to apply, and start studying.

I would guess 3rd year?

[help_questions]

What year of studies are you guys in? I was curious as to when most people take the LSTAT, and how long in advance they have to apply, and start studying.

I would guess 3rd year?


I also what to know how much in advance people start studying, as I plan to study all through August, but not so much when school starts in September...so maybe I shouldn't even be writing....

[UWO Engineer]

I'm taking it at the start of third year -- allows me ample time to re-take provided i get a low score -- allotting 5 months of practice time.

Go to http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/index.php

More information then you could ever process lyes on that site. I've copied it down and stored it in folders in case the site goes down before I start practicing.

[help_questions]

I'm taking it at the start of third year -- allows me ample time to re-take provided i get a low score -- allotting 5 months of practice time.

Go to http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/index.php

More information then you could ever process lyes on that site. I've copied it down and stored it in folders in case the site goes down before I start practicing.

what type of information did you copy and store?

[Free Willy]

what type of information did you copy and store?
The TLS forums hold an abundance of information, from explanations of LSAT answers to the pros and cons of individual law schools. There are plenty of 170-180 LSAT scorers who post there and everyone is pretty helpful for the most part. If you're looking for information specific to Canadian law schools, such as GPA calculations and admission criteria, try the lawstudents.ca forums that I linked to previously.

[AirplaneKing]

Sweet, thx for all the input guys. It's awesome to see other people journeying to get into law school.

forgamez - Yeah I plan to do as many timed practice tests as possible. Do you use the LSAT proctor DVD? I heard its worth the investment to get you used to the strict timing/noise/etc.

Free Willy - My cold diag score was 159. Unremarkable, but I'm confident I can up it to 170+ once I go through all the study guides and run at least two dozen timed tests. Also, RC bible will be coming out soon. I placed my pre-order, so hopefully that will cover all sections solid before I take the real thing.

scottmcl - I'm going into my third year of undergrad.

[help_questions]

anyone planning to take an LSAT course?

[Sniper001]

Sweet, thx for all the input guys. It's awesome to see other people journeying to get into law school.

forgamez - Yeah I plan to do as many timed practice tests as possible. Do you use the LSAT proctor DVD? I heard its worth the investment to get you used to the strict timing/noise/etc.

Free Willy - My cold diag score was 159. Unremarkable, but I'm confident I can up it to 170+ once I go through all the study guides and run at least two dozen timed tests. Also, RC bible will be coming out soon. I placed my pre-order, so hopefully that will cover all sections solid before I take the real thing.

scottmcl - I'm going into my third year of undergrad.
Hey, what undergrad are you currently taking and how are your marks like? (Just curious, you can PM me if you want it to be private.)

[Octavius]

anyone planning to take an LSAT course?

Doubtful.

Basically I've been studying (not too seriously) for the past month or so and I've got the full month before the October LSAT booked off...I plan on making full use of each and every day.

Still studying now...I'm hoping by September I can bring my LSAT scores to around 160. As of right now, I've still got A LOT of work to do =/

At least I have time on my hands...and if I'm really stuck I can postpone until December. I think most (if not all) law schools in Canada will take December as their latest scoring date for the following year. I'd really prefer not to postpone it though...I want to write it, and write it well the first time so I can not worry about this stuff again ;)

Don't think I'll need a course as the Bibles are fairly detailed. Some of the stuff I'm having a hard time grasping, but then again, nobody's perfect =P


Hey, what undergrad are you currently taking and how are your marks like? (Just curious, you can PM me if you want it to be private.)

My overall GPA is around a 3.2/4.0 (high B). Thankfully, there's a number of schools in Canada that focus exclusively on your last two years. My last two year's GPA is 3.8/4.0 (between an A- and an A, or around 83%). Those are the schools I'm hoping to get into

[AirplaneKing]

Hey Octavius, from what I've gathered, it is very beneficial to get in your applications asap, as most law school will start their admission process sometime in September or October. Early bird gets the worm, so study hard for that October LSAT man :cheesygri

[EbonyRose]

anyone planning to take an LSAT course?

When I took the LSAT last year, I took the Princeton Review course. If you like having structure, and someone to walk you through, it's a good investment. If you like to study on your own, then I'd just suggest getting a copy of the books from someone.

[jandumm]

hey all, wrote the LSAT in 2003 - scored in the 90% percentile. Didn't take any courses, just studied from the Kaplan books. I wrote it at George Brown College - the most intimidating part was writing it with 300 other people who were all spazzes ;)

I never ended up applying to law school :)

[AirplaneKing]

hey all, wrote the LSAT in 2003 - scored in the 90% percentile. Didn't take any courses, just studied from the Kaplan books. I wrote it at George Brown College - the most intimidating part was writing it with 300 other people who were all spazzes ;)

I never ended up applying to law school :)

Hahaha, that's pretty jokes. :cheesygri

Any advice for the uninitiated?

[VivienM]

Hey Octavius, from what I've gathered, it is very beneficial to get in your applications asap, as most law school will start their admission process sometime in September or October. Early bird gets the worm, so study hard for that October LSAT man :cheesygri

October LSAT? The first round admission decisions can be made by early-mid November... so I'd say June is a safer bet.

[Octavius]

October LSAT? The first round admission decisions can be made by early-mid November... so I'd say June is a safer bet.

If I could have written it in June, I would have. Certainly would have allowed me to get a nice head start with my applications now. I knew that my chances would be lowered by waiting until October...but not lowered as much as a poor LSAT score.

Deadlines for applications are November 1st for most (if not all) schools in Ontario and most (if not all schools) will accept December LSAT's. It is true that early admissions offers are granted in November/December, but the vast majority of them in Ontario occur in January/February. Hopefully I do well enough in October so I won't have to write it again =P

[VivienM]

If I could have written it in June, I would have. Certainly would have allowed me to get a nice head start with my applications now. I knew that my chances would be lowered by waiting until October...but not lowered as much as a poor LSAT score.

Deadlines for applications are November 1st for most (if not all) schools in Ontario and most (if not all schools) will accept December LSAT's. It is true that early admissions offers are granted in November/December, but the vast majority of them in Ontario occur in January/February. Hopefully I do well enough in October so I won't have to write it again =P

Note that I said decisions. The formal offers may be sent out in January, but the schools have made up their minds about some people far earlier...

That being said, October is far, far wiser than December. If you write LSAT in December, you are in a seriously bad position, even if the schools officially claim they'll take Dec. LSAT results.

[Octavius]

Note that I said decisions. The formal offers may be sent out in January, but the schools have made up their minds about some people far earlier...

That being said, October is far, far wiser than December. If you write LSAT in December, you are in a seriously bad position, even if the schools officially claim they'll take Dec. LSAT results.

Agreed. I WILL be ready for the October LSAT. I'll only be writing in December if:

1) My practice tests a week before the October LSAT are consistently <155 and continue to be that way up to the big day

2) I wrote the October LSAT and I didn't do all that well on it

I know that the earlier my file becomes "complete", the greater my chances are of getting in somewhere.

Here's hoping the next few months work out for me :|

[VivienM]

Agreed. I WILL be ready for the October LSAT. I'll only be writing in December if:

1) My practice tests a week before the October LSAT are consistently <155 and continue to be that way up to the big day

2) I wrote the October LSAT and I didn't do all that well on it

I know that the earlier my file becomes "complete", the greater my chances are of getting in somewhere.

Here's hoping the next few months work out for me :|

Hmmmm... all I can say is, don't worry about LSAT too, too, too much. It's August right now (kinda). If you spend a couple of hours on LSAT every day, you should be ready by Labour Day, let alone October...

[Octavius]

Hmmmm... all I can say is, don't worry about LSAT too, too, too much. It's August right now (kinda). If you spend a couple of hours on LSAT every day, you should be ready by Labour Day, let alone October...

I've actually been studying since the beginning of this month. My diagnostic score was so disgusting that I'm not even going to bother writing it here (yes, it was that bad). This is why I've been putting so much work into this bloody test and giving up my summer. So far, things are slowly getting better.

Anywho, people have given me the same advice (don't worry too much). I've been careful with not burning myself out with this...I make sure I do 2-3 hours a night of studying while also ensuring that I take 1-2 nights a week off to relax.

Thanks for the advice :)

[help_questions]

I've got some questions about LSAT that I am sure others here are curious about. I posted them at lawstudents.ca and didn't get a response.

1) in regards to asking for references:

Let's say I want to apply to all 14 schools....is it reasonable to ask one professor for all of those references. I realize that some schools will require a specialized form, and other just a letter. But is it expected that I would hit up one professor for all of my applications?


2) does anyone see a benefit in taking two prep courses?


3) Is there somewhere official that cites the policy on dealing with failed grades and course repeats when calculating GPA for LSAC?

Does the university's undergrad policy about CGPA and fails not counting towards GPA mean anything when applying to law school?


4) Prep courses-which is the best one? From what I have read, Powerscore is the best. What do RFDers think.


Hopefully, someone has the answers.

[Octavius]

I've got some questions about LSAT that I am sure others here are curious about. I posted them at lawstudents.ca and didn't get a response.

1) in regards to asking for references:

Let's say I want to apply to all 14 schools....is it reasonable to ask one professor for all of those references. I realize that some schools will require a specialized form, and other just a letter. But is it expected that I would hit up one professor for all of my applications?


2) does anyone see a benefit in taking two prep courses?


3) Is there somewhere official that cites the policy on dealing with failed grades and course repeats when calculating GPA for LSAC?

Does the university's undergrad policy about CGPA and fails not counting towards GPA mean anything when applying to law school?


4) Prep courses-which is the best one? From what I have read, Powerscore is the best. What do RFDers think.


Hopefully, someone has the answers.

1) So long as you give the prof enough notice about your intentions and so long as you get the paperwork to them with plenty of time to spare (you're not the only one asking them for references for law school/grad school), then I don't think they'll mind.

2) I see a benefit in taking a prep course if the self study doesn't work out. I see a benefit in taking a 2nd prep course if the first one was unhelpful or useless.

Considering the cost involved with them, I would look long and hard at your situation before jumping in. I personally decided to sign up a few days ago for an LSAT prep course that runs from mid-august until 4 days before the October LSAT. Although it appears as though I am getting better at self study, there are some things I simply will not understand unless I am taught it (it's the way I learn things).

3) LSAC doesn't care about your GPA unless you're applying to US Law Schools. In Canada, each school has their own policy regarding what courses they drop (if any). Here's a quick run down of the ones I know off the top of my head:

- U of A takes last 2 years (Last 10 Credits)
- U of C takes last 2 years (Last 10 Credits) and uses "holistic" approach
- U of S takes a mixed best 2 years and overall gpa
- Queens looks at last two years for admission, overall GPA for sorting applicants
- Western takes last 2 years (I think a practice similar to Queens is used)
- U of O looks at ALL your years and uses "holistic" approach
- U Windsor looks at ALL your years and uses "holistic" approach - heavy emphasis on "soft" factors
- U of T takes last 3 years
- Osgoode Hall (York) takes last 3 years if you get 160 on the LSAT (although I believe they changed it this year)
- Dalhousie takes last 2 years (Last 10 Credits) or overall GPA, whichever is higher
- U New Brunswick drops 25% of lowers marks, then calculates your GPA

UBC and UVic also drop a certain number of classes, but I can't remember the number. If your F or low mark is within the two year period (or 3) that the schools who focus on the last two years (or 3) look at, they will include that F in their calculation. For the schools that look at all your marks, you're SOL, that F will be used in their calculations.

All schools will see your F regardless though.

4) There is no "best" prep course, as it's subjective based on the person. If I was in TO, I would take the powerscore one as their bibles are fantastic and I've heard great things about their course...but unfortunately, the only prep course available in my area is Kaplan. I've still heard some good things, and I'm willing to gamble on getting better with it...but I wish I had more options.

[VivienM]

1) in regards to asking for references:

Let's say I want to apply to all 14 schools....is it reasonable to ask one professor for all of those references. I realize that some schools will require a specialized form, and other just a letter. But is it expected that I would hit up one professor for all of my applications?

For Ontario schools, it's a single reference form.

Why exactly are you looking at applying to 14 schools?! Just HOW many law schools are there in this country, anyways?


2) does anyone see a benefit in taking two prep courses?

No. I'd even suggest against spending the money on one.


3) Is there somewhere official that cites the policy on dealing with failed grades and course repeats when calculating GPA for LSAC?

LSAC doesn't care about your grades (if you're applying to Canadian schools); the individual schools do...

Their policies may or may not be listed on their web sites.


Does the university's undergrad policy about CGPA and fails not counting towards GPA mean anything when applying to law school?

Dunno. For some weird reason, I've never gone to a school that calculates GPAs...


4) Prep courses-which is the best one? From what I have read, Powerscore is the best. What do RFDers think

See above.

[Asad_A203]

Ah i just made a new thread without looking. Sorry guys :cheesygri ! I will copy and paste my post; haha.

[Asad_A203]

My study routine right now is:

Kaplan Approach to the LSAT 2009 Edition (1 hour a day)
Powerscore Logic Games Bible (1 hour a day)
Once a week; a timed test from the Next, 10 Actual LSAT games

I have to say; DO NOT buy Kaplan!! After reading one section of the Logic Games Bible I AM 400% more positive in my skills than the entire section on Logic Games in Kaplan. I would have been highly unprepared if I solely used Kaplan and am having my doubts about its other sections (the Reading Comp is my huge weakness and Kaplan section is useless on this). I also purchased the ebook Mastering the LSAT which I have found to be better for a general guide as opposed to Kaplan. The main reason I am utilizing Kaplan is for the test and the study outline.

I will be making my next purchase of the Logical Reasoning Bible and Reading Comprehension Bible by Powerscore; highly recommended. I am looking at 165-169 score so I really need to know everything.

One tip I found very useful which might come in handy for someone is that some of the answer choices in some of the Logic Games can be used as a hypothetical situation for another question. Example would be one question asking:

"All orders are not possible EXCEPT"

and after you do your game and find the right answer to be something like: "KHJYX"; you can use this "KHJYX" for the next question as a hypothetical situation. It will hopefully cut down on the time and at least eliminate some of the questions. Kinda simple logic but some people (like me) wouldn't have seen this.

[Asad_A203]

hey all, wrote the LSAT in 2003 - scored in the 90% percentile. Didn't take any courses, just studied from the Kaplan books. I wrote it at George Brown College - the most intimidating part was writing it with 300 other people who were all spazzes ;)

I never ended up applying to law school :)

Really just Kaplan Books? I found them to really suck in comparision to Powerscore but I guess different approach for different people.

[help_questions]

VivienM and Octavius...thanks for responding.

Octavius, when you suggest the powerscore course, are you suggesting the full course, or the weekend intensive course?

[Octavius]

VivienM and Octavius...thanks for responding.

Octavius, when you suggest the powerscore course, are you suggesting the full course, or the weekend intensive course?

I've heard from people who took either or that they were fantastic. Again, if it was offered in my area I'd gladly take the full course since their bible explains a lot (and unfortunately I don't get about 1/4-1/2 of it sometimes).

People who aren't willing to drop the cash should still consider the weekend course. I know people who were having a fair bit of trouble with games/logical reasoning and they said that just the weekend prep course really helped them out.

I personally am not leaving anything to chance. I'm going through both bibles before my Kaplan prep-course begins on the 19th...then I'll learn whatever Kaplan teaches me and I'll use whatever method works best from the two ways I've been taught.

The course ends 4 days before the October LSAT (which I will be taking) and the material should still be very fresh in my mind at that point. I figure that's the best time to write it.

[Octavius]

Really just Kaplan Books? I found them to really suck in comparision to Powerscore but I guess different approach for different people.

Actually, I noticed that when I focused exclusively on the Powerscore Logical Reasoning bible...although I was learning a lot more, my score didn't seem to jump much from my diagnostic.

It was only AFTER I started using the Kaplan book in conjunction with the LR Bible did I finally notice an improvement.

I think combined they offer great resources to individuals for the LSAT...both have their strengths although I do agree that the Bibles are substantially better.

[help_questions]

so when people are listing their stats in the popular law forums, as mentioned earlier in this thread, are they citing their GPA for the 4.5 scale? I think so. If that is the case, does that mean that law school admission GPA is based on the 4.5 scale?

[help_questions]

I've heard from people who took either or that they were fantastic. Again, if it was offered in my area I'd gladly take the full course since their bible explains a lot (and unfortunately I don't get about 1/4-1/2 of it sometimes).

People who aren't willing to drop the cash should still consider the weekend course. I know people who were having a fair bit of trouble with games/logical reasoning and they said that just the weekend prep course really helped them out.

I personally am not leaving anything to chance. I'm going through both bibles before my Kaplan prep-course begins on the 19th...then I'll learn whatever Kaplan teaches me and I'll use whatever method works best from the two ways I've been taught.

The course ends 4 days before the October LSAT (which I will be taking) and the material should still be very fresh in my mind at that point. I figure that's the best time to write it.


thanks for your feedback....i am a bit hesitant about the weekend course, because there isn't a test.....just two days of class. I was going to sign up for the full course, but realized that that could hurt my marks for the school year, and therefore be counter productive to the overall goal of studying law. I am taking 120% course load this year, but since I would be only juggling the Powerscore class with my courses at school for the first month, I was thinking to try and be superman. I think I have decided to not take the chance, and just do the weekend course. It's good to know that you've heard that there is value in the weekend course.


FYI - for anyone interested in the powercourse in Toronto, on Friday morning, there were 9 spots left.

[Octavius]

so when people are listing their stats in the popular law forums, as mentioned earlier in this thread, are they citing their GPA for the 4.5 scale? I think so. If that is the case, does that mean that law school admission GPA is based on the 4.5 scale?

Most people cite their GPA on the 4.0 scale since that is more-or-less the universal standard.

It's not too difficult to convert your X score into 4.0...I think OLSAS or OMSAS has a chart on what each school's conversion rate is.

[Octavius]

thanks for your feedback....i am a bit hesitant about the weekend course, because there isn't a test.....just two days of class. I was going to sign up for the full course, but realized that that could hurt my marks for the school year, and therefore be counter productive to the overall goal of studying law. I am taking 120% course load this year, but since I would be only juggling the Powerscore class with my courses at school for the first month, I was thinking to try and be superman. I think I have decided to not take the chance, and just do the weekend course. It's good to know that you've heard that there is value in the weekend course.


FYI - for anyone interested in the powercourse in Toronto, on Friday morning, there were 9 spots left.

Only reason why I'm taking a course (aside from the fact that I hope to do well on the LSAT...better than I can likely do on my own with the time frame left) is because I'm completely done school. I've got a full time job now and I've already arranged for 4/6 weeks off that the prep course will be occurring (so I will have as few distractions as possible during the course).

I've taken an overloaded year + volunteering + part time work (25~ish hours a week) and I can honestly tell you that it was hell. There was SO much to do in the day and just not enough time to do it in. I was (and more or less still am) surviving on 4-5 hours a sleep per night Mon-Fri. Trying to add a full blown LSAT prep course to the mix and be able to get something out of it would be pretty close to impossible.

On a side note, most of my friends that did take the powerscore weekend prep studied immensely prior to taking it and said they got a lot out of it. If you haven't already started studying, I'd suggest you begin immediately.

Best of Luck (to the both of us) :)

[help_questions]

Most people cite their GPA on the 4.0 scale since that is more-or-less the universal standard.

It's not too difficult to convert your X score into 4.0...I think OLSAS or OMSAS has a chart on what each school's conversion rate is.

oh.

I get intimidated when people on lawstudents.ca cite their GPA at 3.5 and are worried about getting it. 3.5/4 scares me.....3.5/4.5 gives me hope.

At what GPA range do you think would disqualify one from law school, assuming a LSAT of 155-160?

From what I've read, 160 and a 3.2 GPA isn't even a lock for admission. Again, that goes back to the scale that is used.

[VivienM]

oh.

I get intimidated when people on lawstudents.ca cite their GPA at 3.5 and are worried about getting it. 3.5/4 scares me.....3.5/4.5 gives me hope.

At what GPA range do you think would disqualify one from law school, assuming a LSAT of 155-160?

From what I've read, 160 and a 3.2 GPA isn't even a lock for admission. Again, that goes back to the scale that is used.

I think people tend to focus far too much on numbers.

Speaking only about the law school I went to, I think they care about as much about WHAT (and WHERE) you were doing than what your grades were while doing it. And they do read those pesky personal statements...

Honestly, if you're concerned about your chances of getting in, you may just want to call the admissions office at your top choice school. In my experience, they'll happily review your materials and give you some idea of how likely you are to get an offer. And I suspect that if they know you really want to go there, that may increase your chances a bit too...

[Octavius]

I think people tend to focus far too much on numbers.

Speaking only about the law school I went to, I think they care about as much about WHAT (and WHERE) you were doing than what your grades were while doing it. And they do read those pesky personal statements...

Honestly, if you're concerned about your chances of getting in, you may just want to call the admissions office at your top choice school. In my experience, they'll happily review your materials and give you some idea of how likely you are to get an offer. And I suspect that if they know you really want to go there, that may increase your chances a bit too...

+1

Gotta agree with you there. I've personally called and emailed the top 3 schools that I hope to get into a few times regarding some questions I've had and they seem to be more than happy to get back to me with responses.

*MOST* law schools I've talked to or emailed have been helpful and quick in responding to my questions...whereas others seemed like they had much better things to do. Those are the schools I've put near the bottom of my list in terms of where I'd go if given an offer...if someone in an office can't properly and respectfully respond to questions regarding a program that their office takes care of, what does that say about their administration and how they view students?

I will, however, go to any school that accepts me :)

I think the reason why help_questions and myself are so focused on numbers is because Law Schools are generally a numbers game. Sure, there are other factors that they consider in their decision to grant you an offer or not...but just to get to that point usually you need some decent stats unless you've got some pretty outstanding extracurriculars (like saving a village in Africa :lol: ).

Competition based on numbers is the easiest to determine where you stand with respect to the other 2800 applicants that applied to the same school you did (all for 160 spots or so). Having a 160 will surely increase your chances than having a 155.

That being said, I have yet to go through the admissions process so most of this may not be accurate or correct...however I have asked many schools a lot of questions regarding the process and I have combed a number of law school forums with a fine pick to get as much information as I could.

To Help_Questions: A 3.2 GPA is a bit on the low side...but keep in mind that a number of schools will look ONLY at your last two years in their determination for granting you admission. If you're going into your third (or even fourth year), there's still time to bring your last two year average up.

My overall GPA is around a 3.24 due to some not-so-good work attitudes that I had in my first three years. I straightened up and I averaged a 3.9 in my fourth year and a 3.7 in my fifth year (went back to do an extra year knowing my third+fourth year marks wouldn't cut it for admission). So although my overall is a 3.24, my last two year average is a 3.8.

There's still time to fix your GPA...the only problem is you have to put school 100% first (which I had to do, was kind of difficult to be honest but it worked out) AND it also lowers the number of law schools that you can have a reasonable chance at getting into.

[VivienM]

Competition based on numbers is the easiest to determine where you stand with respect to the other 2800 applicants that applied to the same school you did (all for 160 spots or so). Having a 160 will surely increase your chances than having a 155.


2800??????

I must really be a dinosaur. When I applied to law school 4 years ago, I thought most of the Ontario schools got about 1800 applications...

OLSAS gets something like 2200-2300 applications/year, I thought. There are over 1000 law school spots in Ontario - probably more like 1100-1200.

Suddenly the odds are a lot less daunting, no? :)

[Octavius]

2800??????

I must really be a dinosaur. When I applied to law school 4 years ago, I thought most of the Ontario schools got about 1800 applications...

OLSAS gets something like 2200-2300 applications/year, I thought. There are over 1000 law school spots in Ontario - probably more like 1100-1200.

Suddenly the odds are a lot less daunting, no? :)

I'm actually such a nerd that I made a chart last year (can't find the proper link for the OLSAS stas for 2008...but it's definitely on the net somewhere)

Ottawa U: 200/3100
Queens: 160/2800 - As per my previous post
Osgoode: 290/2428
U of T: 185/1900
Western: 165/2500
Windsor: 190/1851
Dal: 156/1400
New Brunswick: 80/840
McGill: 170/1507
U of Sask: 116/1000
U of A: 175/1250
U of C: 100/930
U of Manitoba: 101/900
UBC: 209/1944
UVic: 105/1200

Number of People Accepted / Total Applicants - Give or Take

Total Number of Spots in Ontario: 1190 Accepted / 14579 Total Applied (8.16% Admission Rate)

My estimate of 2800 was a tad bit high for some Ontario schools, but not others =P

Doesn't take into account how many OFFERS they made...just the number of people who firmly accepted and went the first week of school.

[VivienM]

Ottawa U: 200/3100
Queens: 160/2800 - As per my previous post
Osgoode: 290/2428

Check those numbers. I have real difficulty believing that almost 400 more people applied to Queen's when Osgoode has almost twice as many spots.

1900 for U of T sounds dead on; same with 2428 for Osgoode. But 3100 for Ottawa?!?



Total Number of Spots in Ontario: 1190 Accepted / 14579 Total Applied (8.16% Admission Rate)

You do realize that you're counting some people 4-6 times in your 14579, right? :)

There aren't actually 14579 HUMAN BEINGS applying. There's probably about 3500 at most, assuming your Queen's/Ottawa numbers are right (which I must say I doubt).


Doesn't take into account how many OFFERS they made...just the number of people who firmly accepted and went the first week of school.

They used to publish statistics about offers, too, I think...

[Octavius]

Check those numbers. I have real difficulty believing that almost 400 more people applied to Queen's when Osgoode has almost twice as many spots.

1900 for U of T sounds dead on; same with 2428 for Osgoode. But 3100 for Ottawa?!?



You do realize that you're counting some people 4-6 times in your 14579, right? :)

There aren't actually 14579 HUMAN BEINGS applying. There's probably about 3500 at most, assuming your Queen's/Ottawa numbers are right (which I must say I doubt).



They used to publish statistics about offers, too, I think...

http://www.elmwood.ca/documents/students/ontario_lawschool_requirements.pdf

Basically linked from OLSAS...Ottawa U actually had 3400 Applicants for the 2008 year competing for 200 spots. As previously stated, my numbers were compiled last year...the PDF above is the stats for the 2008 year (this year).

Yes, I am fully aware that there aren't 14,000 different people applying in Ontario to the various law schools in the province. I was using it more in terms of a comparison (number of applications -> number of people enrolled in first year).

[VivienM]

http://www.elmwood.ca/documents/students/ontario_lawschool_requirements.pdf

Basically linked from OLSAS...Ottawa U actually had 3400 Applicants for the 2008 year competing for 200 spots. As previously stated, my numbers were compiled last year...the PDF above is the stats for the 2008 year (this year).

Okay, I don't get it. WHY is Ottawa so much more in demand? Or... are they combining civil and common law in those numbers?

It's weird how my own school is one of the least in demand...


Yes, I am fully aware that there aren't 14,000 different people applying in Ontario to the various law schools in the province. I was using it more in terms of a comparison (number of applications -> number of people enrolled in first year).

But that's only going to make you feel depressed.

By YOUR numbers, 8% of people seem to get into an Ontario law school. If you look at the numbers MY way and assume 3500 OLSAS applicants (and nobody going to a school outside Ontario), about 31% of people will be SOMEWHERE in September. That, of course, assumes every one of the 3500 applicants actually wants to go to law school - it may shock you because you're in a 'must-get-in-or-my-life-is-over' mindset, but there ARE people who apply, who are admitted, and who turn it down. There are also people who get offers in July... and you know what, in December when they'll be frantically panicking about exams like every other 1L, they won't even remember that they got their offer in July and their friend got his/hers in December. :)

I'd guess more like 35-40% of people who want to go to law school get into a law program somewhere...

[help_questions]

Octavius - you say 3.2 is low.....3.2/4=80%.....that is low? I'm gonna have no life for the next two years if that is the case.

Anyway, I did a cold diagnostic, and scored a 133....
has anyone here ever started THAT low and pulled up to the high 160's?

[Octavius]

Octavius - you say 3.2 is low.....3.2/4=80%.....that is low? I'm gonna have no life for the next two years if that is the case.

Anyway, I did a cold diagnostic, and scored a 133....
has anyone here ever started THAT low and pulled up to the high 160's?

3.2/4 is not 80%...the 4.0 GPA scale doesn't work that way.

Basically, here is a ROUGH conversion:

3.0/4.0 = B (74%-76%)
3.3/4.0 = B+ (77%-79%)
3.7/4.0 = A- (80%-84%)
3.9/4.0 = A (85%-89%)
4.0/4.0 = A+ (90%-100%).

Basically, my 3.23 OVERALL GPA is around a 76.4% or something like that...but my last two years works out to a 3.8 GPA, which works out to something like 83% or so.

133 is fairly low...but it's a cold diagnostic with 0 prep. I wouldn't be discouraged by it too much...start hitting the books and get ready for your course (if you are taking one). Thankfully, most (if not all) of the LSAT courses offer a "Higher Score Guarantee" which means if you don't improve from your first diagnostic score on the real LSAT, you'll either get your money back or you'll be allowed to take the course again for free a second time. Unfortunately, a 1 point increase (which anyone can do by chance) would mean that the makers of the course "did their job" and you would not be offered either of these benefits. Still, it's better than nothing.

As for getting into the high 160's from the low 130's, that would be difficult for anyone...but again, it's your first cold diagnostic. My diagnostic was higher than yours (higher than 140, but less than 150), but it was still unacceptable by my standards. I'm hoping to HIT 160 on the real test...and this alone will take me a lot of work.

Don't be discouraged, all things worth it in life are worth working hard for! :)

[VivienM]

Anyway, I did a cold diagnostic, and scored a 133....
has anyone here ever started THAT low and pulled up to the high 160's?

The thing about LSAT is this: like a law school exam, efficient use of time is everything. Anybody can get a perfect LSAT score - if they have two or three times the normal amount of time.

So, the reason you need practice is that as you practice, you get faster at doing it, and the faster you are, the more questions you can answer in the given time, and assuming your accuracy doesn't go down the toilet, the more questions you get right. :)

[help_questions]

3.2/4 is not 80%...the 4.0 GPA scale doesn't work that way.

Basically, here is a ROUGH conversion:

3.0/4.0 = B (74%-76%)
3.3/4.0 = B+ (77%-79%)
3.7/4.0 = A- (80%-84%)
3.9/4.0 = A (85%-89%)
4.0/4.0 = A+ (90%-100%).

Basically, my 3.23 OVERALL GPA is around a 76.4% or something like that...but my last two years works out to a 3.8 GPA, which works out to something like 83% or so.


so when converting to the 4.0 scale from York's 9 point scale, am I to use the chart that I have seen floating around the internet based on what York assigns, or do I use the actual grade.

I ask because, for example, I got an 85 in a class, and according to York, 80-89 is an A. But if re-calculated as per the assigned grade, that 85 would be a 3.9 on the 4.0 scale, but if you look at the A York assigns, it could be a 3.7

I hope the above also makes sense.

You also mentioned in a previous post that I should consider calling admission offices' to inquire about myself as a candidate...when you did this, did they review your materials in person, or did you send them in?

[Octavius]

so when converting to the 4.0 scale from York's 9 point scale, am I to use the chart that I have seen floating around the internet based on what York assigns, or do I use the actual grade.

I ask because, for example, I got an 85 in a class, and according to York, 80-89 is an A. But if re-calculated as per the assigned grade, that 85 would be a 3.9 on the 4.0 scale, but if you look at the A York assigns, it could be a 3.7

I hope the above also makes sense.

You also mentioned in a previous post that I should consider calling admission offices' to inquire about myself as a candidate...when you did this, did they review your materials in person, or did you send them in?

You're better off using the chart that's floating around the internet...that's what the admissions committee will use.

Some schools convert letter grades into percentages whereas others do not. Some will consider the actual number you get in class, others will not. I would say that they would convert your scores into the scores that their respective schools use...but don't quote me on this.

I know that Dal changes GPA letters into percentages in order to evaluate an applicant...I would imagine that most schools would exercise similar practices in order for them to have a better objective view of all the applicants (as in, convert the scale at your school into theirs for admissions purposes).

I didn't send anything when asking about my chances...I simply called up admissions and said "I was wondering if you could give me a bit of insight, I'm considering applying for law school but before I go through the whole process I was wondering if I even had a chance...do you think you could give me an honest opinion...taking into account the fact that each year is different in terms of who/what is accepted and what isn't?"

And then I'd give them my GPA and LSAT score. Since I haven't written the LSAT, I asked them what the lowest score was that would give me a reasonable chance of being accepted at that particular school.

[VivienM]

You also mentioned in a previous post that I should consider calling admission offices' to inquire about myself as a candidate...when you did this, did they review your materials in person, or did you send them in?

In my case, they asked for the materials to be emailed...

[help_questions]

Octavius and VivienM....thanks again for your responses.



You're better off using the chart that's floating around the internet...that's what the admissions committee will use.


If anyone is interested, the conversion chart is located in:
http://www.ouac.on.ca/olsas/pdf/c_olsas_b.pdf

[Asad_A203]

I did my diagnostic test today; only really studying Logic Games (50% done the Logic Games Bible); and I scored a 159 (69% raw).

I have an average of 6X% in the other segments but a nice 75-78% in Logic Games. My time is still off (I averaged about 11 mins per game as opposed to 8 mins 45 secs).

U of M you only need a 165+ for guranteed admission so I am hoping after the Logical Reasoning Bible and Reading Comp bible I can bump my score to around there.

Any tips you guys have for cutting down time?

[trustomega]

Anyone want a copy of the Lsat from princeton review pm me

[help_questions]

I am thinking of purchasing:
-the PowerScore LSAT Logic Games Bible
the PowerScore LSAT Logical Reasoning Bible
-the PowerScore LSAT Reading Comprehension Bible
-the PowerScore LSAT Logic Games Bible Flashcards.

If anyone has any feedback about any of the above items, please share.

[mit006]

there's a powerscore RC bible now?

[help_questions]

there's a powerscore RC bible now?

they are taking pre-orders for the September 5 release

[Sniper001]

I am thinking of purchasing:
-the PowerScore LSAT Logic Games Bible
the PowerScore LSAT Logical Reasoning Bible
-the PowerScore LSAT Reading Comprehension Bible
-the PowerScore LSAT Logic Games Bible Flashcards.

If anyone has any feedback about any of the above items, please share.
Read above, many of the posters have said that Powerscore is the way to go. I'd definetly recommend these 2 books:
1) The PowerScore LSAT Logic Games Bible
2) The PowerScore LSAT Logical Reasoning Bible

I'm finishing high school, but I currently own those 2 books and have browsed them (particularly the logic games bible)... they are pretty good material and are a MUST when coming to studying for the LSAT. That combined with doing past LSAT's should be sufficient enough. If not (and you will know this by your results when you do past LSAT's), you should invest in an LSAT prep-course (Princeton review, kaplan, etc.)

[help_questions]

I was wondering what is a good type of EC to get my self involved with?

Is being a general member of a undergrad club enough, or is it all about attaining executive positions?

[penquinbum]

Years ago I did the LSAT, not sure if I was going into Law or not. I also did the GMAT and the GRE! (I really wasn't sure!). The basics of the tests are similar and nothing prepares you like doing the real thing. I found that writing the GRE helped me with my timing, question reading and gave me a lot of confidence when I wrote the LSAT. I did well enough on it to get into law school but ended up doing my Masters in the US and never got back to Law school. Hence, and other people may have different opinions on this...writing the GRE and/or the GMAT may be (The GRE may be better as it is less mathy than the GMAT) good preparation tools for the LSAT. Good luck!!:)

[VivienM]

I was wondering what is a good type of EC to get my self involved with?

Is being a general member of a undergrad club enough, or is it all about attaining executive positions?

Law schools (and employers) love to see some evidence of leadership skills...

[help_questions]

Law schools (and employers) love to see some evidence of leadership skills...

thanks for your response.

I've got work experience as a team leader/team manager, so I figure my work experience and references will verify my leadership skills..

I am concerned about my EC's, as I feel I have NONE currently...so lets say I am not able to attain a leadership in one of my school's clubs....Is being a general member of a club or organization worth anything on my application?

Any suggestions on what I can take on to enhance the EC aspect of my profile (once I confirm that I have failed to attain a leadership position)?

Thanks!

[mit006]

To those that have taken LSAT prepatory courses...

which in your opinion is/are the best? (please sustantiate that opinion as well)

thanks.

(Kaplan, Princeton Review, Powerscore, Testmasters, Prep101, Richardsons, others?)

[help_questions]

I've got work experience as a team leader/team manager, so I figure my work experience and references will verify my leadership skills..

I am concerned about my EC's, as I feel I have NONE currently...so lets say I am not able to attain a leadership in one of my school's clubs....Is being a general member of a club or organization worth anything on my application?

Any suggestions on what I can take on to enhance the EC aspect of my profile (once I confirm that I have failed to attain a leadership position)?
Should I bother putting time into begin a general member of a club?

Thanks!

bump.....

also, I wrote a mock LSAT this weekend.....some people showed up after all the scantron sheets had been accounted for, so they had to leave. One girl shows up at 9:12am(12 mins late) and gets pissed that she cant write the mock LSAT.....she starts this argument with the person in charge, and leaves all pissed off....while I did feel a bit bad for her, it is her own fault for being late.

and then at the end, these two goofballs are filling in the scantron sheet after all the time is over. they are asked to stop, but respond that they are done answering the questions, and are filling in the scantron sheet.

Don't people know anything about the real LSAT.....you don't come late, and time is up when they say time is up....

just wanted to share my interesting Saturday morning story

[Octavius]

bump.....

also, I wrote a mock LSAT this weekend.....some people showed up after all the scantron sheets had been accounted for, so they had to leave. One girl shows up at 9:12am(12 mins late) and gets pissed that she cant write the mock LSAT.....she starts this argument with the person in charge, and leaves all pissed off....while I did feel a bit bad for her, it is her own fault for being late.

and then at the end, these two goofballs are filling in the scantron sheet after all the time is over. they are asked to stop, but respond that they are done answering the questions, and are filling in the scantron sheet.

Don't people know anything about the real LSAT.....you don't come late, and time is up when they say time is up....

just wanted to share my interesting Saturday morning story

Cute.

If they did this at the real LSAT, they would have their test materials removed from them, LSAC would cancel their score and report to any schools that they applied to that the score was canceled due to cheating.

EDIT: As for your EC's, spend time doing stuff that you take an interest in. Your GPA and LSAT score (holistic schools exempted) are your most important factors in determining your acceptance.

[VivienM]

also, I wrote a mock LSAT this weekend.....some people showed up after all the scantron sheets had been accounted for, so they had to leave. One girl shows up at 9:12am(12 mins late) and gets pissed that she cant write the mock LSAT.....she starts this argument with the person in charge, and leaves all pissed off....while I did feel a bit bad for her, it is her own fault for being late.

and then at the end, these two goofballs are filling in the scantron sheet after all the time is over. they are asked to stop, but respond that they are done answering the questions, and are filling in the scantron sheet.

Don't people know anything about the real LSAT.....you don't come late, and time is up when they say time is up....

just wanted to share my interesting Saturday morning story

Well, I think you want to encourage all your rivals to follow these people's outstanding example! :)

[Terrific_Deals2k8]

Years ago I did the LSAT, not sure if I was going into Law or not. I also did the GMAT and the GRE! (I really wasn't sure!). The basics of the tests are similar and nothing prepares you like doing the real thing. I found that writing the GRE helped me with my timing, question reading and gave me a lot of confidence when I wrote the LSAT. I did well enough on it to get into law school but ended up doing my Masters in the US and never got back to Law school. Hence, and other people may have different opinions on this...writing the GRE and/or the GMAT may be (The GRE may be better as it is less mathy than the GMAT) good preparation tools for the LSAT. Good luck!!:)

Woah, thanks for the advice :D I'm definitely going to take my GMAT and it makes sense that writing the GRE or GMAT may be good preprartion for the LSAT, because I'm sure these standardized tests are similar in some ways. However, more importantly, I would assume that handling time allocation is the most important aspect for all of these exams. :razz:

[Asad_A203]

I am stuck at 161-162 right now and my timing is horrible...

My LSAT is finalized for this February (didn't feel prepared). Is anyone able to help me out with the reasoning behind some of these logic games setup (not sure if I can post them up)? Please PM me; I read Logic Games Bible in August and unfortunately some of these things seem a bit foriegn to me.



Thanks.

[Asad_A203]

Well late update/bump guys.

I did horrible on my LSAT (mid 150s). I was scoring consistiently mid 160s - low 170s during prep. What I can try telling other future LSAT students is FOCUS on your time, this is where you get burnt. If you take 2-3 mins extra doing a game and you get a perfect score, don't expect that on the LSAT. Also make sure you time in scoring in your answer sheet and using the exact same condition as you will during the test. During my prep, I used my cellphone for timing and didn't think 30-45 seconds for 100% accuracy was a bad thing. In hindsight, I should have been aiming for 45 seconds to a minute under 35 minutes during pre for the scoring. Make sure you guys can easily transfer your prep to the test center and you will be fine.


I got my letter from the Faculty of Law today, I was placed on a waiting list >:(. The kicker is I was under 2 decimal points from guranteed acceptance (U of M only cares about your GPA and LSAT score, both 50/50). I am 77 in the waiting list and only 101 got accepted (out of 11XX), so it seems I am SOL this year. I will be rewriting it again this fall, hoping for a mid 160 and should be piece of cake to get in next year (I get to drop 18 credit hours from my GPA calculation which helps out too).

[Octavius]

Well late update/bump guys.

I did horrible on my LSAT (mid 150s). I was scoring consistiently mid 160s - low 170s during prep. What I can try telling other future LSAT students is FOCUS on your time, this is where you get burnt. If you take 2-3 mins extra doing a game and you get a perfect score, don't expect that on the LSAT. Also make sure you time in scoring in your answer sheet and using the exact same condition as you will during the test. During my prep, I used my cellphone for timing and didn't think 30-45 seconds for 100% accuracy was a bad thing. In hindsight, I should have been aiming for 45 seconds to a minute under 35 minutes during pre for the scoring. Make sure you guys can easily transfer your prep to the test center and you will be fine.


I got my letter from the Faculty of Law today, I was placed on a waiting list >:(. The kicker is I was under 2 decimal points from guranteed acceptance (U of M only cares about your GPA and LSAT score, both 50/50). I am 77 in the waiting list and only 101 got accepted (out of 11XX), so it seems I am SOL this year. I will be rewriting it again this fall, hoping for a mid 160 and should be piece of cake to get in next year (I get to drop 18 credit hours from my GPA calculation which helps out too).

That sucks.

I'm surprised with a mid 150s score that you didn't get at least one offer from a law school somewhere in Canada. How's your GPA? How many law schools did you apply to?

For what it's worth, logic games was my best section whereas logical reasoning was an area that I definitely needed improvement on. The LG bible is a godsend, but I also used much of what I learned in a Kaplan course and combined the best of both worlds to achieve the best results.

On my diagnostic, I think I got 7 questions on LG right. On the real LSAT, I got only 2 or 3 wrong :)

Retake it and try again next year. I'm sure you'll have better luck then!

I would also suggest that you improve upon your holistic factors (volunteer/work experience). One of the offers of acceptances that I received was from a very "holistic" law school in Canada. Although my GPA was competitive, my LSAT wasn't, but it seems as though my "soft factors" were good enough to get me first round admission.

Best of Luck!

[Asad_A203]

That sucks.

I'm surprised with a mid 150s score that you didn't get at least one offer from a law school somewhere in Canada. How's your GPA? How many law schools did you apply to?

For what it's worth, logic games was my best section whereas logical reasoning was an area that I definitely needed improvement on. The LG bible is a godsend, but I also used much of what I learned in a Kaplan course and combined the best of both worlds to achieve the best results.

On my diagnostic, I think I got 7 questions on LG right. On the real LSAT, I got only 2 or 3 wrong :)

Retake it and try again next year. I'm sure you'll have better luck then!

I would also suggest that you improve upon your holistic factors (volunteer/work experience). One of the offers of acceptances that I received was from a very "holistic" law school in Canada. Although my GPA was competitive, my LSAT wasn't, but it seems as though my "soft factors" were good enough to get me first round admission.

Best of Luck!

Thanks, hopefully it goes fine next year.

Section I really stumbled on was the LG >:(. I got fixated on doing 1 game and couldn't figure it out. Ended up not having enough time to do the last game and it cost me dearly (the difference between my mid 150s to a cozy 16X). What the faculty provided to me, I basically had to score 4 points higher on my LSAT (160) to get admitted. Other problem was I forgot to register in time to write it in my city, so I had to drive out to a neighboring city to write it. Could not manage any sleep the night before and wasn't feeling so great writing something at 9 in the morning. In hindsight, I should have registered in June since the examination is much later in the day and at my university.

I actually only applied at U of M in Canada and a few universities in the states. I was really set on going to the law school locally here (since it is a 5 minute drive from my parents house), but I will keep my options open and apply everywhere this time. I did get a couple law schools interested in the states but they were Tier 3 law schools (I know, but if I am going to go to a crappy law school, I will stick in my own province, lol).

My GPA is currently a 3.8X-3.9X. U of M works by giving leverage to senior students, I applied as a 2nd year university student so they did not let me drop any courses in my GPA calculation. When I apply next year, I will have my 6 lowest courses dropped from my GPA calculation which will help greatly. If I apply after my degree, I will get to drop a year's worth of courses from the calculation which will be even better. But I think I will go back to finish up my business degree at a later point if it means entering law school one year early.

Will take your advice in handy, ever since high school, I have not done much volunteering (have been working 5 years part time during school in an IT linked field) and something I should definately make time for in the future.

[jwei]

Hey guys, sorry for the OLD bump. Theres tons of useful info so I thought I'd continue building in here. Anyhow, how did everyone make out?

Just one question for most of you guys, is it bad to be taking the LSAT entering fourth year? At this point, I think I'm still leaning towards something within a business degree, but will be hopefully doing an internship after my third year to see if I really do enjoy it. I figure if I hate it, I'd look to write my LSATS?

Any helpful/beneficial advice would be appreciated. Thanks

[Beeg]

Shouldn't Canada have their own test for law school?

[Octavius]

Hey guys, sorry for the OLD bump. Theres tons of useful info so I thought I'd continue building in here. Anyhow, how did everyone make out?

Just one question for most of you guys, is it bad to be taking the LSAT entering fourth year? At this point, I think I'm still leaning towards something within a business degree, but will be hopefully doing an internship after my third year to see if I really do enjoy it. I figure if I hate it, I'd look to write my LSATS?

Any helpful/beneficial advice would be appreciated. Thanks

You can write the LSAT anytime you want. If you think you can balance school + studying for the LSAT, go ahead and do it. Otherwise, don't. It's that simple.


Shouldn't Canada have their own test for law school?

Why reinvent the wheel? If the LSAT seems to work for law schools vis-a-vis assisting in determining which applicants they should accept, why bother going through the process of making up a "Canadian" test and spending all that time and money to administer it and distribute it to students worldwide that want to attend law school in Canada?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[tng11]

Scores are slowly trickling out tonight for those who wrote it Oct 9th. I've been staring at my computer with a bottle of whiskey since 8am waiting for it. :cry:

[Octavius]

Scores are slowly trickling out tonight for those who wrote it Oct 9th. I've been staring at my computer with a bottle of whiskey since 8am waiting for it. :cry:

I was in your exact same position about 2 years ago. Definitely one the most stressful experiences of my life waiting for that damn score.

Hope you did well enough to get into at least a couple law schools in Canada :)

[tng11]

I was in your exact same position about 2 years ago. Definitely one the most stressful experiences of my life waiting for that damn score.

Hope you did well enough to get into at least a couple law schools in Canada :)

LSAC did a wonderful job of torturing us during this score release, I got mine at around 11PM and others got them at 2AM! >:( And only this morning did we get our answer sheets.

I scored well enough to be safe at all schools but UofT, but I'm aiming for the US T14 so it looks like a retake. :cry:

[UWO Engineer]

LSAC did a wonderful job of torturing us during this score release, I got mine at around 11PM and others got them at 2AM! >:( And only this morning did we get our answer sheets.

I scored well enough to be safe at all schools but UofT, but I'm aiming for the US T14 so it looks like a retake. :cry:

LSAC had their fun with us this administration. First, the LSAT was on Thanksgiving. Second, it had some very wierd LR questions. Third, they started to send out scores around 9pm EST and many of us were up until 1:30am + waiting for scores! Fourth, they didnt upload the disclosure booklet with the scores. Something which has never happened.

All in all, it was a fairly wierd administration. I will be re-taking as well in June. It was fun though :) I'm fairly safe everywhere in Canada with a 170 but I'm looking at Michigan down South, and the only way i'll go there is if I'm offered some serious coin.

How'd you guys find it?

[tng11]

LSAC had their fun with us this administration. First, the LSAT was on Thanksgiving. Second, it had some very wierd LR questions. Third, they started to send out scores around 9pm EST and many of us were up until 1:30am + waiting for scores! Fourth, they didnt upload the disclosure booklet with the scores. Something which has never happened.

All in all, it was a fairly wierd administration. I will be re-taking as well in June. It was fun though :) I'm fairly safe everywhere in Canada with a 170 but I'm looking at Michigan down South, and the only way i'll go there is if I'm offered some serious coin.

How'd you guys find it?

Tell me about it!

I got seriously owned on LR (-10 on LR1 and -4 on LR2), -5 on RC (normal for me) and -0 on LG (also normal). It didn't help that I had RC,LR,LR,LG,LR so my brain was pretty fried by the 3rd and 5th sections.

I was expecting the curve to be brutal as I found the RC and LG rather easy but the LR was the killer this time around (I hated the brick houses, car theft, etc. questions). That being said I got -7 my PT average.

I'm holding off for the 2012 cycle. If I get above 172 on the retake, I will be applying early decision to Columbia and with 166-171 it will be early decision to Cornell. HYS is out of the question with my GPA. :cry:

[UWO Engineer]

Tell me about it!

I got seriously owned on LR (-10 on LR1 and -4 on LR2), -5 on RC (normal for me) and -0 on LG (also normal). It didn't help that I had RC,LR,LR,LG,LR so my brain was pretty fried by the 3rd and 5th sections.

I was expecting the curve to be brutal as I found the RC and LG rather easy but the LR was the killer this time around (I hated the brick houses, car theft, etc. questions). That being said I got -7 my PT average.

I'm holding off for the 2012 cycle. If I get above 172 on the retake, I will be applying early decision to Columbia and with 166-171 it will be early decision to Cornell. HYS is out of the question with my GPA. :cry:

Yeah, it seemed to mess with a lot of people. I typically ace LG, and I even felt confident about that section, but half of my mistakes were in LG! WTF is that. RC was the other half LOL.

You retaking in June then?

[tng11]

Yeah, it seemed to mess with a lot of people. I typically ace LG, and I even felt confident about that section, but half of my mistakes were in LG! WTF is that. RC was the other half LOL.

You retaking in June then?

Haha, I'd kill for your 170 right now. :lol: It's good to rewrite with a stellar score like that in the bank (my 165 is in no-mans land).

June 2011 it is, I'm just not a morning person.

[UWO Engineer]

Actually, we're pretty much in the same place really. For all intents and purposes a 165 is the same as a 170 when it comes to Canadian admissions. Pretty much means we have a shot anywhere, provided the GPA isn't in the toilet.

All the 170 over the 165 means is I can apply to the T14 and be accepted with no schollys lol. Well that's great! I now have the ability to pay sticker at the T14...woot! :P

The 12:30 start for June actually troubles me. That's fairly late, and what if the admin stuff on game day goes long? I've heard stories of people getting out at 7 or so after the June test...Yikes! That would drain me hard!

[tng11]

Actually, we're pretty much in the same place really. For all intents and purposes a 165 is the same as a 170 when it comes to Canadian admissions. Pretty much means we have a shot anywhere, provided the GPA isn't in the toilet.

All the 170 over the 165 means is I can apply to the T14 and be accepted with no schollys lol. Well that's great! I now have the ability to pay sticker at the T14...woot! :P

The 12:30 start for June actually troubles me. That's fairly late, and what if the admin stuff on game day goes long? I've heard stories of people getting out at 7 or so after the June test...Yikes! That would drain me hard!

Yeah, for Canadian schools those few LSAT points won't make a huge difference. My GPA took a severe beating with OLSAS conversion while the LSDAS conversion still has me above the median at many T14s. I still can't believe how those 1 or 2 points changes your chances for T14 schools dramatically, some of those 25th-75th percentile ranges I see for the top schools are incredibly tight. I would gladly pay sticker for Columbia and anything above, but I would have to think about anything else very carefully. I'm hoping that I'll get my score up to my PT range, and that the ED application will give myself a better chance at Columbia. Personally I would be very happy attending UofT, Osgoode or UBC but you gotta shoot for the stars, eh?

I know I'm writing at another test centre the next time, the one I was at (Queen's Collegiate) had desks that reminded me of elementary schools and tiny rooms that were incredibly hot- The B.O. smell was building up halfway through section 1! I hate to think what it would be like in Summer! :lol:

How are you going to prep for the rewrite? I used up most of the modern PTs from the mid 40s onwards and probably will start working from the earlier PTs where the LR and LG were harder than recent tests and hopefully by the end I'm done with them, I'll have forgotten the modern tests and can use them again.

[UWO Engineer]

Yeah, for Canadian schools those few LSAT points won't make a huge difference. My GPA took a severe beating with OLSAS conversion while the LSDAS conversion still has me above the median at many T14s. I still can't believe how those 1 or 2 points changes your chances for T14 schools dramatically, some of those 25th-75th percentile ranges I see for the top schools are incredibly tight. I would gladly pay sticker for Columbia and anything above, but I would have to think about anything else very carefully. I'm hoping that I'll get my score up to my PT range, and that the ED application will give myself a better chance at Columbia. Personally I would be very happy attending UofT, Osgoode or UBC but you gotta shoot for the stars, eh?

I know I'm writing at another test centre the next time, the one I was at (Queen's Collegiate) had desks that reminded me of elementary schools and tiny rooms that were incredibly hot- The B.O. smell was building up halfway through section 1! I hate to think what it would be like in Summer! :lol:

How are you going to prep for the rewrite? I used up most of the modern PTs from the mid 40s onwards and probably will start working from the earlier PTs where the LR and LG were harder than recent tests and hopefully by the end I'm done with them, I'll have forgotten the modern tests and can use them again.

OLSAS is the worst conversion system ever invented. It absolutely rapes GPAs, and for no apparent reason.

I cant agree with the paying sticker though...man, that's nearly 40,000 American a year + living expenses. And as Canadians we dont qualify for need based aid, so we would need to hit up a bank at huge interest rates. No thanks! But Columbia is awesome, so definitely ED if that's your dream. Unless of course your retake puts you over their 75th, then an ED would be ill-advised as they would offer you no money.

As far as prepping goes I don't think I will do that much. I chewed through almost all of the available PTs, the only ones that I haven’t touched are the PTs in the SuperPrep book. That said, I dont think studying like we did before will be beneficial and if anything, it would hurt us. We have a solid foundation and to review hardcore all the basic principles might burn us out. I intend to refresh about a month and a half before by taking PT 61 (I havent looked at the answers, nor do I plan on doing so before I retake) and compare that to my actual score. Then take a few PTs from the 20s, 30s, and 50s (maybe 2 from each group) and finish off with the 3 SuperPrep PTs about a week or so before the exam.

If I find considerable errors then I will modify the schedule accordingly, but if I'm back at the 175+ range where I was heading into October, that's probably how i'll leave it. I might also look to help students on campus with their prep, and learn by teaching.

[tng11]

OLSAS is the worst conversion system ever invented. It absolutely rapes GPAs, and for no apparent reason.


If you think OLSAS is bad, UBC's system completely raped my GPA. I did the calculations today and I'm stunned, what is a 3.85 LSAC GPA is now a 3.5 with UBC! :( I can't believe that they translate letter grades into % and give you the lowest possible mark in calculating GPA. I seem to be a terribly inconsistent guy as I have an almost even split of B+/A/A+ grades with a B and C+ mixed in and that has come back to bite me in the rear end.

The more I read about it, I realize you're right about not going to the US without a decent scholarship. Columbia's tuition is a whopping $49,000 and once you factor living in NYC, it'll be $75,000+/year. That will work out to more than $225,000 in debt fresh out of school and with a potentially bad job market even for the elite schools. Suddenly, UofT's tuition at around $21K, Osgoode's at $16K and UBC's at around $10K looks a lot more appealing. :confused:

I'll admit I'd love to go to Columbia for its prestige but I'm not sure if that's worth $200K to me. Especially when I'm not overly interested in Biglaw jobs for now.

[tng11]

First PT after the October exam- a disastrous 159. :cry:

[UWO Engineer]

First PT after the October exam- a disastrous 159. :cry:

That's no worries. Just a little rusty is all. Where did it go wrong: LG, RC or LR? If it was LG, a long break can do that to you so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

[tng11]

Registration for 2011 LSAT administrations are up! Signed up for June 2011 at UofT.

I hit my first 180 on PT60 today (although I specifically did only the mulches game once before the Oct. exam)... excited for what's to come!

[Asad_A203]

First off, UWO Engineer and tng11, congrats on your awesome LSAT scores! I would kill to have your score UWO, and it seems like engineers have a natural talent for writing well on the LSAT. Sadly not so for business students :(.

So if you guys have seen any of my other posts, you should know I have been at the LSAT for over 2 years now :( (/start my sad personal rant about my LSAT being crap for the top law schools in Canada). I spent some time rethinking my career goals after my last rewrite (still not a 165+), and I realized that all I want to become is a lawyer and not go into IB/Medicine. This time, I am starting my prep now and rewriting it for June. There will be no 1.5 month study session but 5 months of dedicated studying aimed at scoring a 170+. It might be a bit dreamy given my prior score, but I think I can pull it off with the proper preparation, time, and no more half-assery on my part. I realise my GPA is competitive enough for T14, and how close I can come to getting into Columbia (my ultimate goal since they will drop my prior LSAT scores if the new one is greater than 8 points compared to HYS which require an explanation or average it out). If I can actually can come anywhere close to that, I will be extremely happy and not feel like a failure for the rest of my life lol. I am finally finished my BCom degree this Fall so I still try to tick it off as no time lost in my last year rejection to UBC.

That being said, I haven't had any of my friends committed to writing this June LSAT with the same dedication as me (most are doing their CA, and want to write the LSAT for "fun", sadly they don't know there is nothing fun about this for someone like me :razz:). Does anyone on RFD who is serious about writing the LSAT want to join a online study group that "meets" weekly over MSN/Skype/email? I am looking hopefully to spend maybe an hour a week (ramping up towards the LSAT write date) reviewing parts from this study guide on TLS from now until January to June:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41657

It is more of accountability measure to make sure we keep on track towards our goal, and also to help each other on reaching our goal. I also have some pretty good experience writing this thing (not well though :razz:) so I can also help anyone out new to the LSAT.

Study group aside, I understand what you guys are saying in terms of investing the $ into a T14 school (particularly T1-10). However, I do think it is worth the price. Checking the stats for a school like Columbia, reveals that nearly all students secure employment before L3, and a hefty percentage of this is at "biglaw". In addition, the median salary for students in their first year out of law school is $150k from a school like Columbia. Although the recent economic downterm may negatively effective your employment prospective, I highly doubt that a competent T14 law student will have a difficult time finding employment. Even schools located in "biglaw" markets, like University of Texas or Fordham, get a decent % of their students entering into biglaw. Employment prospective within the USA aside, I think a Columbia degree (or from a T10) will hold a greater deal of prestige/power over a comparable degree from any law school in Canada. UofT may have firms actively recruiting students to work in NY, but most people have indicated that these aren't exactly the top tier law firms.

[UWO Engineer]

First off, UWO Engineer and tng11, congrats on your awesome LSAT scores! I would kill to have your score UWO, and it seems like engineers have a natural talent for writing well on the LSAT. Sadly not so for business students :(.

So if you guys have seen any of my other posts, you should know I have been at the LSAT for over 2 years now :( (/start my sad personal rant about my LSAT being crap for the top law schools in Canada). I spent some time rethinking my career goals after my last rewrite (still not a 165+), and I realized that all I want to become is a lawyer and not go into IB/Medicine. This time, I am starting my prep now and rewriting it for June. There will be no 1.5 month study session but 5 months of dedicated studying aimed at scoring a 170+. It might be a bit dreamy given my prior score, but I think I can pull it off with the proper preparation, time, and no more half-assery on my part. I realise my GPA is competitive enough for T14, and how close I can come to getting into Columbia (my ultimate goal since they will drop my prior LSAT scores if the new one is greater than 8 points compared to HYS which require an explanation or average it out). If I can actually can come anywhere close to that, I will be extremely happy and not feel like a failure for the rest of my life lol. I am finally finished my BCom degree this Fall so I still try to tick it off as no time lost in my last year rejection to UBC.

That being said, I haven't had any of my friends committed to writing this June LSAT with the same dedication as me (most are doing their CA, and want to write the LSAT for "fun", sadly they don't know there is nothing fun about this for someone like me :razz:). Does anyone on RFD who is serious about writing the LSAT want to join a online study group that "meets" weekly over MSN/Skype/email? I am looking hopefully to spend maybe an hour a week (ramping up towards the LSAT write date) reviewing parts from this study guide on TLS from now until January to June:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41657

It is more of accountability measure to make sure we keep on track towards our goal, and also to help each other on reaching our goal. I also have some pretty good experience writing this thing (not well though :razz:) so I can also help anyone out new to the LSAT.

Study group aside, I understand what you guys are saying in terms of investing the $ into a T14 school (particularly T1-10). However, I do think it is worth the price. Checking the stats for a school like Columbia, reveals that nearly all students secure employment before L3, and a hefty percentage of this is at "biglaw". In addition, the median salary for students in their first year out of law school is $150k from a school like Columbia. Although the recent economic downterm may negatively effective your employment prospective, I highly doubt that a competent T14 law student will have a difficult time finding employment. Even schools located in "biglaw" markets, like University of Texas or Fordham, get a decent % of their students entering into biglaw. Employment prospective within the USA aside, I think a Columbia degree (or from a T10) will hold a greater deal of prestige/power over a comparable degree from any law school in Canada. UofT may have firms actively recruiting students to work in NY, but most people have indicated that these aren't exactly the top tier law firms.

Good luck mate! I took 5 months myself and found it to be the perfect amount of time. I cant say i'll be answering your call for hardcore June study partners :P but if you have any questions that your group is finding trouble with you can always email/PM me. I work for a relatively new LSAT prep company (HarvardReady) and I have kind of made the LSAT my life in recent months :P.

Email: allan@harvardready.com

[tng11]

First off, UWO Engineer and tng11, congrats on your awesome LSAT scores! I would kill to have your score UWO, and it seems like engineers have a natural talent for writing well on the LSAT. Sadly not so for business students :(.


Don't worry, I'm a business student too! Natural talent is not everything, the material on the LSAT is very learnable but that's not to say that natural ability won't help you.

My friends look at me crazy when I tell them I am studying for an exam in June, but the LSAT is all about practice and review IMO. Nail down your weaknesses on each exam and focus on drilling/reviewing those specific question types. You don't have to do LSAT prep everyday per se, you can read dense editorials, newspaper articles, magazines like the Economist/Scientific American to improve your reading skills, and maybe do Sudoku puzzles to help with LG.

Unfortunately, I find that group studying for the LSAT doesn't work as everyone has a somewhat different interpretation/approach to the test. I would have lengthy debates with friends over the soundness of certain LR/RC answers which end up confusing me more.

Regarding the T14, I wouldn't be so certain of job prospects anymore as I do hear about people at H striking out at OCI (granted, these people were probably boneheads and applied to only prestigious firms or DC, or were the bottom of the class) but it does send a stark message about the state of the American legal market. The Biglaw salary does sound good in absolute terms at $160K, but if you were going for NYC that salary isn't worth as much as you think it is compared to Toronto/Vancouver. There's no way of knowing how the legal market will end up in the next few years, competition for Biglaw will just get more intense and I'm always bothered by the idea that if I go to an uber-competitive school like Columbia that I could potentially end up at the bottom of the class even if I work hard (one of my cousins went to CLS a few years ago, she's far brighter than me but finished at median). :(

[mkjr]

took it and my scores really did not change between practice and final between 156-159 even with the kaplan prep course.

[Asad_A203]

took it and my scores really did not change between practice and final between 156-159 even with the kaplan prep course.

Kaplan is crap IMO, go with PowerScore or an individual tutor. I don't even want to know where I would be if I only used my Kaplan prep book for the LSAT.


Don't worry, I'm a business student too! Natural talent is not everything, the material on the LSAT is very learnable but that's not to say that natural ability won't help you.

My friends look at me crazy when I tell them I am studying for an exam in June, but the LSAT is all about practice and review IMO. Nail down your weaknesses on each exam and focus on drilling/reviewing those specific question types. You don't have to do LSAT prep everyday per se, you can read dense editorials, newspaper articles, magazines like the Economist/Scientific American to improve your reading skills, and maybe do Sudoku puzzles to help with LG.

Unfortunately, I find that group studying for the LSAT doesn't work as everyone has a somewhat different interpretation/approach to the test. I would have lengthy debates with friends over the soundness of certain LR/RC answers which end up confusing me more.

Regarding the T14, I wouldn't be so certain of job prospects anymore as I do hear about people at H striking out at OCI (granted, these people were probably boneheads and applied to only prestigious firms or DC, or were the bottom of the class) but it does send a stark message about the state of the American legal market. The Biglaw salary does sound good in absolute terms at $160K, but if you were going for NYC that salary isn't worth as much as you think it is compared to Toronto/Vancouver. There's no way of knowing how the legal market will end up in the next few years, competition for Biglaw will just get more intense and I'm always bothered by the idea that if I go to an uber-competitive school like Columbia that I could potentially end up at the bottom of the class even if I work hard (one of my cousins went to CLS a few years ago, she's far brighter than me but finished at median). :(

That scares me a bit too about T14 schools :confused:. I have always been in the top 5-10% of my class from primary school to current; being in a situation where your classmates are some of the brightest in the field and the class is forced into a certain distribution may be a big blow to my self esteem. It also raises the question though if it is better to be in the bottom third of HYSC or in the top 25% of a lower ranked law school or a Canadian law school. If I could virtually be guaranteed a job at a Seven Sisters irregardless of how I place within Columbia, I think it would be worth the investment compared to needing to place in the top 20-30% of your class in UofT (which I think would still be as competitive as Columbia or any other T10 law school) for a similar position. How is your cousin currently fairing in terms of employment? Have you also thought about Texas or Fordham? I am thinking it might be easy to place higher in those schools compared to T14 and they have pretty good access to their biglaw markets (although I personally wouldn't want to live in Texas).

I also fully understand your insight into studying for the LSAT (last time I really didn't have much time to focus exclusively on my weaknesses) within a group, I guess I will have to resurrect my old thread so I can at least have some sort of accountability to myself keeping on track :lol:. I also was hoping you guys could critique my study outline that I will be posting shortly.


Good luck mate! I took 5 months myself and found it to be the perfect amount of time. I cant say i'll be answering your call for hardcore June study partners :P but if you have any questions that your group is finding trouble with you can always email/PM me. I work for a relatively new LSAT prep company (HarvardReady) and I have kind of made the LSAT my life in recent months :P.

Email: allan@harvardready.com

Thanks for the offer, definitely appreciate it! It is good to hear you are working as an LSAT tutor, seems fitting given your score ;).

[UWO Engineer]

Kaplan is crap IMO, go with PowerScore or an individual tutor. I don't even want to know where I would be if I only used my Kaplan prep book for the LSAT.

I would say it depends on the person. Kaplan is typically regarded, at least on TLS, as a course manufactured for the masses. Which, having reviewed their material and being interviewed for an instructor position, I would have to agree. That said, there is nothing inherently wrong with the material that they produce.

PowerScore on the other hand is accepted as the leading authority in LSAT prep. A claim to which I have to dispute, at least in part. Their authority is almost exclusively derived from the success of the LR and LGB bibles. But the reason why those were so successful isn't because their methods were/are vastly superior to anything else on the market (though, arguably they are one of the best) it was because the LGB and the LR were the first books to use real LSAT questions. Before publication no other commercially printed LSAT prep books contained real LSAT questions, and that was a big problem.

That said, i learned on the PowerScore method and found their basic rules for Logic Games extremely helpful. I didnt care too much for the LRB, but only because it tends to bog you down in to much detail but for some people that detail is absolutely necessary. In my opinion the PowerScore books are awesome but if you were asking for a recommendation, I would suggest using the ATLAS (now Manhattan) LSAT Guides. They provide the same basic structure but tweak the diagramming in such a way that you can more efficiently keep track of your information.


That scares me a bit too about T14 schools :confused:. I have always been in the top 5-10% of my class from primary school to current; being in a situation where your classmates are some of the brightest in the field and the class is forced into a certain distribution may be a big blow to my self esteem. It also raises the question though if it is better to be in the bottom third of HYSC or in the top 25% of a lower ranked law school or a Canadian law school. If I could virtually be guaranteed a job at a Seven Sisters irregardless of how I place within Columbia, I think it would be worth the investment compared to needing to place in the top 20-30% of your class in UofT (which I think would still be as competitive as Columbia or any other T10 law school) for a similar position. How is your cousin currently fairing in terms of employment? Have you also thought about Texas or Fordham? I am thinking it might be easy to place higher in those schools compared to T14 and they have pretty good access to their biglaw markets (although I personally wouldn't want to live in Texas).

I wouldn't be so certain that Columbia = 7 Sisters. I have no idea about that kind of placement but if that assumption is illfounded, you may find yourself 200,000 K in the hole without a liferaft.


I also fully understand your insight into studying for the LSAT (last time I really didn't have much time to focus exclusively on my weaknesses) within a group, I guess I will have to resurrect my old thread so I can at least have some sort of accountability to myself keeping on track :lol:. I also was hoping you guys could critique my study outline that I will be posting shortly.

No problem! But remember, the best outline is the one that delivers results :P So don't be afraid to deviate!


Thanks for the offer, definitely appreciate it! It is good to hear you are working as an LSAT tutor, seems fitting given your score ;).

It's certainly a necessary condition but it is far from a sufficient condition ;)

[Asad_A203]

I would say it depends on the person. Kaplan is typically regarded, at least on TLS, as a course manufactured for the masses. Which, having reviewed their material and being interviewed for an instructor position, I would have to agree. That said, there is nothing inherently wrong with the material that they produce.

PowerScore on the other hand is accepted as the leading authority in LSAT prep. A claim to which I have to dispute, at least in part. Their authority is almost exclusively derived from the success of the LR and LGB bibles. But the reason why those were so successful isn't because their methods were/are vastly superior to anything else on the market (though, arguably they are one of the best) it was because the LGB and the LR were the first books to use real LSAT questions. Before publication no other commercially printed LSAT prep books contained real LSAT questions, and that was a big problem.

That said, i learned on the PowerScore method and found their basic rules for Logic Games extremely helpful. I didnt care too much for the LRB, but only because it tends to bog you down in to much detail but for some people that detail is absolutely necessary. In my opinion the PowerScore books are awesome but if you were asking for a recommendation, I would suggest using the ATLAS (now Manhattan) LSAT Guides. They provide the same basic structure but tweak the diagramming in such a way that you can more efficiently keep track of your information.


I wouldn't be so certain that Columbia = 7 Sisters. I have no idea about that kind of placement but if that assumption is illfounded, you may find yourself 200,000 K in the hole without a liferaft.


No problem! But remember, the best outline is the one that delivers results :P So don't be afraid to deviate!


It's certainly a necessary condition but it is far from a sufficient condition ;)

Haha, I want to do the contrapositive of that statement now to make sure I didn't leave out any additional inferences :lol:.


Well, I don't feel like creating a new thread just for myself so I might as well post my status here. I created a tiered outline (modeled like a business plan :lol:) with my long, medium, and short term goals. I have included flexibility in my short term goals by refreshing/revising them weekly based on my current performance and the ability to change for unforeseeable events. I will post that up later today when I get on my desktop.

In terms of actual LSAT prep, I have done 5 Basic Linear games so far (timed, but not limited to 8:45), read first 50 pages in LGB (basic linear), and started reading the section in LRB for assumption based questions. I haven't started any questions for RC/LR but will do 20/questions from Kaplan Mastery for Assumptions today and start LSAT 7 RC passage today. My accuracy is fairly decent but these are the easiest game types and my time is not including bubbling in any sheet (right around 8-9 mins, 1 took me 14 mins). On my 2nd and 3rd retake of them, I will be sure to do them in 8:30-8:45.

[tng11]

In terms of actual LSAT prep, I have done 5 Basic Linear games so far (timed, but not limited to 8:45), read first 50 pages in LGB (basic linear), and started reading the section in LRB for assumption based questions. I haven't started any questions for RC/LR but will do 20/questions from Kaplan Mastery for Assumptions today and start LSAT 7 RC passage today. My accuracy is fairly decent but these are the easiest game types and my time is not including bubbling in any sheet (right around 8-9 mins, 1 took me 14 mins). On my 2nd and 3rd retake of them, I will be sure to do them in 8:30-8:45.
While it's good you are getting practice, I wouldn't be so strict on timing games by themselves but rather full sections. The reality is, as you get better at the test there'll be types of games you can knock down in 5 minutes when others take 15 minutes, as long as you can finish all 4 within 35 minutes. Then you work downwards and try to finish sections within 30 minutes because of test nerves. This time around I'm trying to improve endurance by doing 6 or 7 section PTs as even though I did 5 section PTs, on the real thing I was burned out by the last section.

[Asad_A203]

While it's good you are getting practice, I wouldn't be so strict on timing games by themselves but rather full sections. The reality is, as you get better at the test there'll be types of games you can knock down in 5 minutes when others take 15 minutes, as long as you can finish all 4 within 35 minutes. Then you work downwards and try to finish sections within 30 minutes because of test nerves. This time around I'm trying to improve endurance by doing 6 or 7 section PTs as even though I did 5 section PTs, on the real thing I was burned out by the last section.

Yeah, I am not too concerned about timing if it is 1-2 minutes off and it is a difficult game, but right now (Basic Linear - Balanced & Overloaded) there really shouldn't be any challenging games.

Well here is my monthly routine:


LSAT STUDY GUIDE – [LONG LIST]

OVERALL GOAL: An LSAT score of 170+

MONTH 1 [January]
Logic Game:
Task – Complete ALL Linear games three (3) times [refer to short guide], read corresponding chapter in LGB
Procedure – 1st attempt will be timed and recorded, 2nd and 3rd attempt will be limited to 8:45
Goal – 95% accuracy overall for 3rd attempts
Reading Comprehension:
Task – Complete ALL 10 RC Sections from first 10 LSAT Book (7-15), Finish reading LRB
Procedure – 3 Day Cycle (RC Section, Review, Review), UNTIMED
Goal – 95% accuracy, develop system to utilize in future RC section
Logical Reasoning:
Task – Finish Kaplan Mastery for: Assumption, Strengthen/Weaken, Flaw. Read corresponding chapter in LRB
Procedure – 15 question/day, review section prior to undertaking, untimed
Goal –98% accuracy



MONTH 2 [February]
Logic Game:
Task – Complete ALL grouping games three (3) times [refer to short guide], read corresponding chapter in LGB
Procedure – 1st attempt will be timed and recorded, 2nd and 3rd attempt will be limited to 8:45
Goal – 3rd attempt with 96% accuracy
Reading Comprehension:
Task – Complete LSAT 15-25 RC Passage
Procedure – 3 Day Cycle (RC Section, Review, Review), TIMED
Goal –90% accuracy, develop system to utilize in future RC section

Logical Reasoning:
Task – Finish Kaplan Mastery for: Inference, Principle, Parallel, Paradox; read corresponding chapter in LRB
Procedure – 15 question/day, review section prior to undertaking, untimed
Goal –98% accuracy

Full Length LSAT TEST PREP:
LSAT: Super Prep B & C



MONTH 3 [March]
Logic Game:
Task – Complete ALL rare games (Grouping/Linear, Pattern, Pure Sequencing, Mapping, Circular Linearity games) three (3) times [refer to short guide], read corresponding chapter in LGB
Procedure – 1st attempt will be timed and recorded, 2nd and 3rd attempt will be limited to 8:45
Goal – 3rd attempt Linear Games with 95% accuracy
Reading Comprehension:
Task – Complete LSAT RC 25-35
Procedure – 3 Day Cycle (RC Section, Review, Review), TIMED
Goal – 95% accuracy, master system for further use (read old, dry articles from Bloomberg Business week every day and time under 2:00 for annotating)
Logical Reasoning:
Task – Finish Kaplan Mastery for: Method of Argument, Main Point, Role of Statement, Point at Issue. Read corresponding chapter in LRB
Procedure – 15 question/day, review section prior to undertaking, untimed
Goal –98% accuracy

FULL Length LSAT TEST PREP:
Task: LSAT (5 Section) – LSAT 41, LSAT 42, LSAT 43, LSAT 44 (Saturday @ 11:30)
Procedure: Timed, Review all mistakes, write explanation for all mistakes and correct answers for the prep test
Goal: Final LSAT score of 165 (all prior 3 over 160)
MONTH 4 [April]
Logic Game:
Task – Complete ALL LG in LSAT 45-63 three (3) times [refer to short guide], read corresponding chapter in LGB
Procedure – 1st attempt will be timed and recorded, 2nd and 3rd attempt will be limited to 8:45
Goal – 3rd attempt Linear Games with 98% accuracy
Reading Comprehension:
Task – Complete LSAT RC 35-39
Procedure – 3 Day Cycle (RC Section, Review, Review), TIMED
Goal – 97% accuracy, master system for further use (read old issues of Bloomberg Business week)
Logical Reasoning:
Task – Focus on question/section identified as weakness, do over
Procedure – 15 question/day, review section prior to undertaking, untimed
Goal –100% accuracy

FULL Length LSAT TEST PREP:
Task: LSAT (5 Section) – LSAT 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56 (Saturday @ 11:30 for 51, 53, 54, 56)
Procedure: Timed (with scantron, aim for 30 seconds under), Review all mistakes, write explanation for all mistakes and correct answers for the prep test
Goal: 165 Minimum, 172 target


MONTH 5 [May]
Logic Game:
FOCUS SOLEY ON LOGIC GAMES CAUSING ISSUES, DO LG 45-50 if time permits (timed, under 34:50 per section; NOT GAME)
Reading Comprehension:
Task – Complete LSAT RC 45-49
Procedure – 3 Day Cycle (RC Section, Review, Review), TIMED
Goal – 100% accuracy, master system for further use (read old issues of Bloomberg Business week)
Logical Reasoning:
FOCUS ONLY ON SPECIFIC QUESTIONS CAUSING ISSUES
FULL Length LSAT TEST PREP:
Task: LSAT (5 Section) – LSAT 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62 (complete all two weeks prior to exam, 60, 61, 62 – Sat @ 11:30)
Procedure: Timed, Review all mistakes, write explanation for all mistakes and correct answers for the prep test
Goal: MINIMUM LSAT SCORE OF 172+ FOR ALL!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Pretty rough overall, I did it at 3 in the morning a few weeks ago and haven't bother revising it yet. I will expect the goal setting higher or lower depending on what kind of scores I am getting on the PTs.

So far, I have done about 15 LGs, Finished Linear LG Chapter in LGB, finished first three chapters in LRB (reading Assumption chapter), but haven't started my RC prep or the RCB yet. I have been a bit tired over the past few days but I will kick it into gear to do for tomorrow. Just have Finance crap I need to get done with first, I know by the time my Finance classes actually pick up, I won't have much time for the LSAT :(. I also need to do my cold diagnostic test! I have been putting this off but I need to do it ASAP to see how much I actually end up improving with the Powerscore methods or not.

For the LOR, who are you guys planning to use? I haven't really gotten to know any of my professors personally but I am taking Commercial law right now and the instructor is a lawyer (has his own law firm and a BCL from Oxford). I was hoping he might be able to write me a LOR, I will just have to start talking alot more in class and maybe mention I am planning on going into law (maybe land some unpaid position at his firm? I think I am being too hopeful here for a -1L, lol). For my 2nd LOR I was planning on volunteering at a center that helps in the integration of immigrants into the community and was hopefully going to use one of the staff there. Issue is that I am not sure if universities would prefer this or an academic reference more. If I can't do this, I am thinking I will be a TA for some courses over summer break and hopefully get my profs to write me one for this too.

Beyond LSAT prep:

So what universities are you guys applying to if all goes well on the June LSAT (not like a 165-170 isn't good enough for any schools in Canada, as it is)? I am having difficulties in picking schools in the US, as with a conservative LSAT score (mid 16Xs), I can get into a lower T14 but the tuition will be ridiculous and my job prospects won't be that good. With a higher LSAT score (167-17X), I am competitive enough up for a T10, up to Stanford and Columbia. The issue is my prior LSATs will be a burden at Stanford (require explanation or will be averaged) whereas Columbia will waive my prior scores if my new one has a greater difference than 8. Needless to say though, I won't be putting much hope into a T10 until I am done writing and received my June LSAT score.

For Canadian law schools: my preference rank right now is UofT, Osgoode, UBC, UC/UA, and then UofM. I am having difficulty deciding on Canadian law schools as well now :facepalm:. The biggest incentive for UofM honestly is that even if I make $50-60k (I am being hopeful :() once I pass the bar, I can still live at home until I pay off my law school debt. UofM is only $9k/year ($27k debt), and I won't have any residence/living fees beyond what I pay right now. Additionally, Manitoba forgives a certain % of your student loan debt if you stay in the province. So I will realistically be debt free in a year, and 1-2 years of saving will have me in a pretty good position finance wise. Whereas even if I land a job at a Seven Sisters firm and get a $89k job out of law school, I will have to account for UofT/Oz law school debt (will probably be $90-115k), living in TO with the ridiculous COL, and the fact that I don't even really like Toronto that much. Ideally, Vancouver would be perfect, but I don't see how I could manage given the high COL and the crappy salaries lawyers make out there.

I think living in Manitoba spoiled me. Living with parents + low COL + a fairly well paying job for a 17 year old (when I got hired) spoiled me pretty bad. I have had a fair amount of toys and cars that most people at my age (especially in other cities) can't afford. Making a shift to where I will be lucky to have $3-4k/year in savings, I am not sure exactly how well I will fair. Hopefully my RFD instincts will kick in :lol:

[Keile]

Frankly, if all of you are still considering going to law school in the US after being made explicitly clear the dire state of the job market and 100k+ debt racket, you deserve to be unemployed and drowning in your own bile. Remember, you have been warned.

[Asad_A203]

Frankly, if all of you are still considering going to law school in the US after being made explicitly clear the dire state of the job market and 100k+ debt racket, you deserve to be unemployed and drowning in your own bile. Remember, you have been warned.

The law market is over saturated everywhere, not only in the USA. If you are an idiot who has a BA in basket weaving, coasted through law school, made no attempt at networking, and have no experience/ECs; you will be screwed regardless of where you practice or attend law school (and I would even argue that this is the same for any field). Nothing is a guarantee in life including the value of your education in the marketplace.


Further, I disagree with your second point. Most individuals who are experiencing a horrible time acquiring their initial job are not exactly the individuals in T14 law schools, they are the ones going to Cooley Law School or a Tier 2/3/4 and expecting a $100k-150k/year salary. This is not to discredit the fact that the market is competitive for top law school students for lucrative job positions (biglaw), it probably is, but it isn't exactly an issue of being unemployed or not for most students. If you have SOME skills and motivation (and no idea of self-entitlement), you should be able to land a job at a firm somewhere. I am sure even a hard working T2/3/4 law student can find meaningful employment somewhere or be competitive with a T1 law student with enough motivation.

Even in the worst case scenario that you can't land a job in the US with a degree from a T14, you can always come back and practice in Canada. I am not sure how law firms take to T14 law schools in Canada, but if you believe in the typical connotations of lawyers, I would say you stand a pretty good chance against a comparable graduate from any Canadian law school. Yes, this assumption is provided without proper justification but it isn't a far stretch to think most employers have a different perception of Ivy League schools than most universities.

[tng11]

The law market is over saturated everywhere, not only in the USA. If you are an idiot who has a BA in basket weaving, coasted through law school, made no attempt at networking, and have no experience/ECs; you will be screwed regardless of where you practice or attend law school (and I would even argue that this is the same for any field). Nothing is a guarantee in life including the value of your education in the marketplace.

Further, I disagree with your second point. Most individuals who are experiencing a horrible time acquiring their initial job are not exactly the individuals in T14 law schools, they are the ones going to Cooley Law School or a Tier 2/3/4 and expecting a $100k-150k/year salary. This is not to discredit the fact that the market is competitive for top law school students for lucrative job positions (biglaw), it probably is, but it isn't exactly an issue of being unemployed or not for most students. If you have SOME skills and motivation (and no idea of self-entitlement), you should be able to land a job at a firm somewhere. I am sure even a hard working T2/3/4 law student can find meaningful employment somewhere or be competitive with a T1 law student with enough motivation.

Even in the worst case scenario that you can't land a job in the US with a degree from a T14, you can always come back and practice in Canada. I am not sure how law firms take to T14 law schools in Canada, but if you believe in the typical connotations of lawyers, I would say you stand a pretty good chance against a comparable graduate from any Canadian law school. Yes, this assumption is provided without proper justification but it isn't a far stretch to think most employers have a different perception of Ivy League schools than most universities.

I agree with most of what you said. The US has a problem with having too many law schools, and unfortunately any student who wants to go to law school is bound to be accepted by one. Some of those who end up at T3 or T4 schools have this delusion that becoming a lawyer will lead them to the "models and bottles" lifestyle, but in reality these schools are just robbing them in broad daylight by taking $200K+ in government loan money. That's not so much the case in Canada as all Canadian schools have relatively high admission standards, it's very hard for someone who slacked in undergrad to get into a Canadian law school as GPA is a much bigger factor in admissions here, many of the students who get into law school here are hard-working and are capable of dealing with the workload, which is not the case down south.

Unfortunately, one can't really predict where the legal market by the time you or I go to law school. People who entered in 2006 or 2007 got screwed, and who's to say that the class entering in 2011 or 2012 won't face an even worse market? In the T14, not everyone who wants Biglaw will get it and you have to be pretty smart and hard-working to gain admission to a T14 in the first place. Lots of people are going to be gunners, and I would hesitate to say that I could beat 50% of people who were good enough to gain admission.

For your last point, you should go to the US only if you are absolutely certain you will stay there. I recall reading about a case of a UWO graduate who went to HLS, and when she wanted to come back to Canada she had to waste a few years writing exams and taking courses so she could officially practice up here. On the other hand, you can still practice in the US if you have a Canadian degree as you can write the NY and CA bar, although your chance of making NYC Biglaw will be slim.

I'm graduating in June this year, and I'm still very much on the fence whether I want to go to law school as I don't want to spend another 3 years of my life in school if I can be doing something else that I would enjoy (working on an internet venture with a friend after graduation). I would drop everything to attend one of HYS (which could only happen if I get mid 170s on the LSAT), anything else I am even more skeptical now.

[Asad_A203]

I agree with most of what you said. The US has a problem with having too many law schools, and unfortunately any student who wants to go to law school is bound to be accepted by one. Some of those who end up at T3 or T4 schools have this delusion that becoming a lawyer will lead them to the "models and bottles" lifestyle, but in reality these schools are just robbing them in broad daylight by taking $200K+ in government loan money. That's not so much the case in Canada as all Canadian schools have relatively high admission standards, it's very hard for someone who slacked in undergrad to get into a Canadian law school as GPA is a much bigger factor in admissions here, many of the students who get into law school here are hard-working and are capable of dealing with the workload, which is not the case down south.

Unfortunately, one can't really predict where the legal market by the time you or I go to law school. People who entered in 2006 or 2007 got screwed, and who's to say that the class entering in 2011 or 2012 won't face an even worse market? In the T14, not everyone who wants Biglaw will get it and you have to be pretty smart and hard-working to gain admission to a T14 in the first place. Lots of people are going to be gunners, and I would hesitate to say that I could beat 50% of people who were good enough to gain admission.

For your last point, you should go to the US only if you are absolutely certain you will stay there. I recall reading about a case of a UWO graduate who went to HLS, and when she wanted to come back to Canada she had to waste a few years writing exams and taking courses so she could officially practice up here. On the other hand, you can still practice in the US if you have a Canadian degree as you can write the NY and CA bar, although your chance of making NYC Biglaw will be slim.

I'm graduating in June this year, and I'm still very much on the fence whether I want to go to law school as I don't want to spend another 3 years of my life in school if I can be doing something else that I would enjoy (working on an internet venture with a friend after graduation). I would drop everything to attend one of HYS (which could only happen if I get mid 170s on the LSAT), anything else I am even more skeptical now.

I definitely agree no one can really say with certainty what the condition will be in the 2014 legal market, but I highly doubt unemployment is going to be a likely scenario for T14 graduates. Less than ideal employment opportunities is probably going to be more likely. The crappy conditions in the legal market is mainly linked to the sub-prime crisis. Conditions are getting better in most of the business sector so I am optimistic that career prospects in the legal sector will also improve. I have heard reports that some businesses are trying to get by on less (i.e. they are not going to actually hire back the # of workers they fired) but I would imagine this isn't exactly that much of an option in the legal profession, or any profession where your business strongly correlates to your skilled employees.

For your scenario, it is a tough call but I would say do what makes you the most happiest if money wasn't a factor. I was in a similar position last year after I wrote my LSAT and got rejected from UBC. I spent a good year thinking if law was what I really wanted to do and I tried hard to switch to take another patch (I switched my major to Finance and started looking into Investment Banking, I was also ready to take the science pre-reqs for Medicine) but I eventually came to the realisation that all I want to do is become a lawyer. If I fail financially in becoming a lawyer, I can at least take comfort in knowing that this is what I wanted to do.

I do have some discomfort though as I also always wanted to become a Computer Scientist (I am a bit, ok, a big computer geek :lol:). To this day, I still regret not taking that as my undergraduate (mainly did not go into it due to the poor career prospects and earnings within the IT field nowadays) and you can't excuse your geekiness when you have a degree in Finance & SCM and you write programming code for fun :facepalm:.

[Keile]

It's funny to view all the rosy faces here. My brother is a lawyer here in Canada and frequently notes all the summers every year at firms in the US that enter their first year thinking they're going to make second, or third, or fourth year. Maybe even partner. Until, of course, they burn out after working 70 hours a week, developing no book of business of their own at so-called "big" firms, before being canned or pushed out of their firms by greedy partners no longer happy with their wok. The key is to bill 2000 flawness hours or forget about maintaining a steady pay cheque.

The naievity here is palpable.

"BigLaw is possible at any T14."

Correct, but it's also plausible you won't get a job. Then what? And presuppose--fine--you do get a job. You're still don't have a chance in hell of making partner, so what's the point? Law for large sums of money is horrible work; you aren't saving lives. You're doing doc review, covering up for people, twiddling your thumbs even.

[PhilRelgStudent]

It's funny to view all the rosy faces here. My brother is a lawyer here in Canada and frequently notes all the summers every year at firms in the US that enter their first year thinking they're going to make second, or third, or fourth year. Maybe even partner. Until, of course, they burn out after working 70 hours a week, developing no book of business of their own at so-called "big" firms, before being canned or pushed out of their firms by greedy partners no longer happy with their wok. The key is to bill 2000 flawness hours or forget about maintaining a steady pay cheque.

The naievity here is palpable.

"BigLaw is possible at any T14."

Correct, but it's also plausible you won't get a job. Then what? And presuppose--fine--you do get a job. You're still don't have a chance in hell of making partner, so what's the point? Law for large sums of money is horrible work; you aren't saving lives. You're doing doc review, covering up for people, twiddling your thumbs even.

Thanks. I'm not going to become a lawyer.

[sighsigh]

First of all, any job making big bucks is going to be working those kind of hours. I-banker, surgeon, whatever...they aren't paying you to sit on your lazy a$$ and do nothing. And 70 hours is way less than what bankers work. The point of going into biglaw is for the exit options, obviously. You slave away and do your years to pay off your tution, but you are in the best position of any attorney coming out. I agree that the actual work is pretty boring.

No, your chances aren't great getting biglaw from Georgetown. But your dramatic wording gives people the impression that someone from HYS (or CCN) is having to give blowjobs in order to have a decent chance of landing these gigs...

[Asad_A203]

It's funny to view all the rosy faces here. My brother is a lawyer here in Canada and frequently notes all the summers every year at firms in the US that enter their first year thinking they're going to make second, or third, or fourth year. Maybe even partner. Until, of course, they burn out after working 70 hours a week, developing no book of business of their own at so-called "big" firms, before being canned or pushed out of their firms by greedy partners no longer happy with their wok. The key is to bill 2000 flawness hours or forget about maintaining a steady pay cheque.

The naievity here is palpable.

"BigLaw is possible at any T14."

Correct, but it's also plausible you won't get a job. Then what? And presuppose--fine--you do get a job. You're still don't have a chance in hell of making partner, so what's the point? Law for large sums of money is horrible work; you aren't saving lives. You're doing doc review, covering up for people, twiddling your thumbs even.

So your brother, who is a lawyer is Canada, overheard/noticed/read "something" (that something we don't know) provides your reasoning to assume that if you attend a T14, you face a likely probability of unemployment? This is not a qualified opinion on the manner. That would be equivalent of me providing an opinion on the financial markets of Bay Street (I live in Winnipeg) because I know individuals employed there, I am a Finance Major and will have my CFA designation (or at least exam 1) :facepalm:.

What exactly are your qualifications in providing your statements as they seem to be indicating that you are a leading authority on the manner? Are you a T14 law student? Are you in law school? Do you actually know anything in regards to this topic or are you relying solely on what your brother tells you? Are you also employed in health care/dentistry/pharmacy (all tightly related) as that is pretty much the only occupations I can think of where you are guaranteed a job upon graduation.


Instead of spouting off false and emotional driven statements (have you considered politics?), here are some statistics for Columbia law school (which is not HYS; go figure):

Bar passage rate in New York: 95%
Percent of graduates employed 9 months after graduation: 99%
Median private sector salary: $160,000 (class of 2008)

http://www.top-law-schools.com/columbia-law-school.html

Yes, these numbers may be skewed as they were taken before the financial crisis. The key here is that it is still concrete information as opposed to hearsay. So what you are trying to tell me is the school in '08 with the 2nd largest number of law students entering "big law" ( at the top 20 firms in the USA, only behind Harvard), with a 99% employment rate after 9 months for graduates, and a median private salary immediately out of law school north of 100k is now going to face an unemployment rate greater than 50%, 7 years after the sub-prime crisis :facepalm::facepalm:??

I find that highly unrealistic. Yes, students who may have had 160k salaries before in big-law may be faced with significantly smaller salaries with little/no bonus. Heck, some might not make it into big law and have to work in the public sector, a small number might even be unemployed. NONE OF THAT EQUALS PROBABLE UNEMPLOYMENT as you are making the case that it is. I do not find unemployment likely for even the Tier 1 or Tier 2 law schools.

The competitive nature of law is not unique. If you want a easy, 9-5 career, being a corporate attorney is, and will never be, the right choice. Nothing is guaranteed with law school, and I, and many others, understand that. Recessions are not unique either, they come and go and things recover with time. Will the law field be as hospitable as the 2008 levels in the near future? Probably not, but it is not like your J.D. is now a really expensive sheet of toilet paper.

As an aside; please stop using unsound, emotion-driven arguments in this thread. This thread is not meant for you to provide your unqualified opinion on the law field (without providing any qualified support), as it may actually impact the decisions of students entering into law. Your side rants about the work not being meaningful as you are not helping people (who would have thought in a capitalist society that you might be employed in such conditions :facepalm:) are completely irrelevant to the argument at hand as well.

[Asad_A203]

First of all, any job making big bucks is going to be working those kind of hours. I-banker, surgeon, whatever...they aren't paying you to sit on your lazy a$$ and do nothing. And 70 hours is way less than what bankers work. The point of going into biglaw is for the exit options, obviously. You slave away and do your years to pay off your tution, but you are in the best position of any attorney coming out. I agree that the actual work is pretty boring.

No, your chances aren't great getting biglaw from Georgetown. But your dramatic wording gives people the impression that someone from HYS (or CCN) is having to give blowjobs in order to have a decent chance of landing these gigs...

+1. Keile is even going further by presuming that unemployment is a likely alternative for law students in T14 and T10. Unable to land the best outcome does not mean you will face the worse. Individuals who don't land big law gigs still have many alternatives available that may end up actually being more rewarding than basically just the money aspect of big law.

Heck, I am in the middle of literally nowhere and we even have a somewhat viable law market for our local law school graduates (private; in the public sector we are facing a pretty big shortage as are most places).

[tng11]

As an aside; please stop using unsound, emotion-driven arguments in this thread. This thread is not meant for you to provide your unqualified opinion on the law field (without providing any qualified support), as it may actually impact the decisions of students entering into law. Your side rants about the work not being meaningful as you are not helping people (who would have thought in a capitalist society that you might be employed in such conditions :facepalm:) are completely irrelevant to the argument at hand as well.

It does seem that Keile is overly pessimistic. However, I still think that you are overly optimistic too.

Even though these days they have that 99% employment statistic ITE, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're working in a law job. Finishing bottom at Columbia isn't that great of a position to be in and I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't working in a field related to law (but hey, that counts as employment!). The beauty of having a degree from HYS (won't include CCN) is the exit opportunities in fields that are not related to law. Investment banks, private equity firms and hedge funds do hire graduates from these schools quite often once they've done a biglaw gig for a few years. There's no free lunch to making the big bucks, lawyers don't have it as bad as i-bankers with 70 hours per week as opposed to more than 100 hours.

[Asad_A203]

It does seem that Keile is overly pessimistic. However, I still think that you are overly optimistic too.

Even though these days they have that 99% employment statistic ITE, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're working in a law job. Finishing bottom at Columbia isn't that great of a position to be in and I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't working in a field related to law (but hey, that counts as employment!). The beauty of having a degree from HYS (won't include CCN) is the exit opportunities in fields that are not related to law. Investment banks, private equity firms and hedge funds do hire graduates from these schools quite often once they've done a biglaw gig for a few years. There's no free lunch to making the big bucks, lawyers don't have it as bad as i-bankers with 70 hours per week as opposed to more than 100 hours.

I might be optimistic for myself, but I am not asserting that the likelihood of unemployment for T14 graduates is likely (i.e. >50%). Whether their employment is related or unrelated to law is irrelevant, they still have a job that has the ability to contribute to at least some of their debt if they wanted to. That is what I take fault with in Keile statement.

Now, you may disagree with the statistics (in addition to how they may be skewed) and think it is unlikely to be in the top 66% of a class, but the truth is that the majority of students do fall into this category. I also disagree with there not being an exit opportunity present with a degree from Columbia. It definitely is not to the same extent as HYS but there is some prestige in a degree from a school that consistently ranks in several publications as being in the top 10-15 universities in the world (some of those at a higher rank than Y&S).

[PhilRelgStudent]

I might be optimistic for myself, but I am not asserting that the likelihood of unemployment for T14 graduates is likely (i.e. >50%). Whether their employment is related or unrelated to law is irrelevant, they still have a job that has the ability to contribute to at least some of their debt if they wanted to. That is what I take fault with in Keile statement.

Now, you may disagree with the statistics (in addition to how they may be skewed) and think it is unlikely to be in the top 66% of a class, but the truth is that the majority of students do fall into this category. I also disagree with there not being an exit opportunity present with a degree from Columbia. It definitely is not to the same extent as HYS but there is some prestige in a degree from a school that consistently ranks in several publications as being in the top 10-15 universities in the world (some of those at a higher rank than Y&S).

I think Keile was just making the point that going into law isn't as great as one might have thought. S/he speaks from having a close relative in law. This isn't as irrelevant as you argue. This is a person currently in law, who might have had the same rosy picture of going into law as some of you might (or do) have.

I think you (Asad) are the one who is getting emotional about what was said (ie. checkout your long well thought out (pretty gosh damn formal) counter argument against what wasn't even an argument to begin with + your follow up argument + the post that will follow this one where you will likely defend your position (again) (because you need to for some reason?)). I think you are trying to justify your (life) decision to go into law, and feel insecure about someone (Keile) talking down that decision. I mean, why else would you feel so obligated to spend so much effort replying to something like that then?

[sighsigh]

Going to law school with the intention of exiting into finance is just foolish, period. Also, (and I have no idea about the recruitment efforts of banks so don't quote me on this), but I find it hard to believe that they would care where you graduated once you have several years of the proper (elite) work experience under your belt. Degree would only matter if you wanted to enter directly into finance upon graduation.

The thing is, employment outside of biglaw isn't a pretty picture, even for T-14 grads. Remember that lawyer pay has a bimodal distribution: you either start at 160k or you are starting closer to 40k (and working the same hours, I might add). Now that's probably simplifying things far too much but I believe it's the general idea.

[tng11]

The thing is, employment outside of biglaw isn't a pretty picture, even for T-14 grads. Remember that lawyer pay has a bimodal distribution: you either start at 160k or you are starting closer to 40k (and working the same hours, I might add). Now that's probably simplifying things far too much but I believe it's the general idea.

This is the credited response.

Unless you go to HYS, where if you work in PI or make less than a certain $ amount, then your loans are covered by the school. Even then, I think that these aid programs aren't available to Canadians, thus negating one of the huge benefits derived from attending HYS and going the clerkship route. Pretty much the only way to recoup your investment is Biglaw, and ITE I'll be cautious about shelling out $200K (that's a freaking house!) for a degree that might land me the same salary level as I could get now.

If you're looking to go into Finance, just do an MBA. A JD would be an absolute waste of your time, as anecdotally while there are exit opportunities, it's much easier to spend one less year at business school and dive into something you think you want to do.

Also, read the legal employment threads on TLS. Those are really making me rethink about going to the US for law school, or even law school at all.

[sighsigh]

Well, there's always the chance that the economy will improve by the time you graduate. I'll be graduating in 2016 if I enter right from UG...but then again it could also get worse.

As Asad_A203 said, your chances of getting biglaw from CCN are in your favour, as the majority of the class IS in the top 66%. Plus if you're so sure you're going to land in the bottom third then Harvard won't save you anyways; bottom of the class at H is also screwed.

TLS seems to have this opinion where LS is this magical place where your grades are determined by the roll of a dice and ABSOLUTELY CANNOT be predicted. Well I don't know how true that is... I work at the law library at UofT and I've had a look through a respectable chunk of their past exams and I don't see anything supernatural about them. They are all case-based, which means you need to 1. prepare (i.e. have good work ethic) and 2. be smart, to do well. Like any exam.

Maybe I should just transfer to Ivey for finance and forget LS... :'(

[Keile]

So your brother, who is a lawyer is Canada, overheard/noticed/read "something" (that something we don't know) provides your reasoning to assume that if you attend a T14, you face a likely probability of unemployment? This is not a qualified opinion on the manner. That would be equivalent of me providing an opinion on the financial markets of Bay Street (I live in Winnipeg) because I know individuals employed there, I am a Finance Major and will have my CFA designation (or at least exam 1) :facepalm:.

My brother holds a pretty senior lawyer position in Canada at a big firm and thus has experience working with lawyers in the United States. This being the case, I don't believe his testimony comes from simply being the beneficiary of serendipitous gossip. Commentators, both from within the law field and out of it, have been reiterating what I've said for the past year or so with regards to law in different tones at Top Law Schools.com, the New York Times, the Economist and elsewhere. I'm afraid the only person not willing or able to face the music is you.


What exactly are your qualifications in providing your statements as they seem to be indicating that you are a leading authority on the manner? Are you a T14 law student? Are you in law school? Do you actually know anything in regards to this topic or are you relying solely on what your brother tells you? Are you also employed in health care/dentistry/pharmacy (all tightly related) as that is pretty much the only occupations I can think of where you are guaranteed a job upon graduation.

Do you read any law articles at all? About law or anything? Check the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/business/26lawyers.html
Downturn Dims Prospects Even at Top Law Schools (2009)


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&ref=business
Is Law School a Losing Game?(2010)

To be honest, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.



Instead of spouting off false and emotional driven statements (have you considered politics?), here are some statistics for Columbia law school (which is not HYS; go figure):

Bar passage rate in New York: 95%
Percent of graduates employed 9 months after graduation: 99%
Median private sector salary: $160,000 (class of 2008)

http://www.top-law-schools.com/columbia-law-school.html


These are Columbia statistics, and Columbia performs well in the job market. Still, it is only fair to warn you:

Statistics such as these are skewed, especially at lower ranking schools, so as to trick gullible sheep like you. The graduating students that overwhelmingly report their employment status back to their respective schools tend to be working in the BigLaw, and are the sole reason why the average salary is not only so high but also usually locked at the 160k level. What this means is that the average salary is usually not accurate.

In like manner, the percentage of graduates employed after nine months is another case of misrepresentation. That is, it is an incomplete statistic as we don't know how large or minuscule pool the statistic draws its conclusion from. At many schools, students that couldn't be found for the survey are listed as employed despite the fact that they are usually not so.What this essentially means is that employment statistics, no doubt with devious intent in mind, always lean towards having higher employment numbers than not. Therefore, they are just as inaccurate, if not more so, than average salary numbers.

Alternatively, what it means to be meaningfully "employed" with an overbearing amount of debt is subjective. Even those that are accurately listed as having found job with their JD after 9 months aren't necessarily making a living wage that enables them to steadily pay off their loans. With this in mind, it is clear that just because someone is employed doesn't mean they are gainfully so. Any statistic asserting otherwise is misleading you.




I find that highly unrealistic. Yes, students who may have had 160k salaries before in big-law may be faced with significantly smaller salaries with little/no bonus. Heck, some might not make it into big law and have to work in the public sector, a small number might even be unemployed. NONE OF THAT EQUALS PROBABLE UNEMPLOYMENT as you are making the case that it is. I do not find unemployment likely for even the Tier 1 or Tier 2 law schools.

Of course unemployment is a vivid possibility. In every law class, there are people who are unemployed. And by that I mean there are students who did not land either public service or BigLaw jobs and are thereof rendered unemployed. Even if we consider those that ended up in low level public service, not much positive weight is evident. A 60k job with 130k+ debt means one is either poor or barely living above the poverty level.



The competitive nature of law is not unique. If you want a easy, 9-5 career, being a corporate attorney is, and will never be, the right choice. Nothing is guaranteed with law school, and I, and many others, understand that. Recessions are not unique either, they come and go and things recover with time. Will the law field be as hospitable as the 2008 levels in the near future? Probably not, but it is not like your J.D. is now a really expensive sheet of toilet paper.

Of course it is. There are way more lawyers than there are jobs. Most lawyers don't work in BigLaw; for them a JD and 150k debt wasn't worth it. Nothing is guaranteed in life, but some things are more certain than others. Spending money lackadaisically with barely a care in the world is a recipe for disaster as so many have already found out.

[sighsigh]

To be fair, Mr. Asad is considering practicing law in Canada where prospects are more favourable (and tution is far cheaper).

[Keile]

To be fair, Mr. Asad is considering practicing law in Canada where prospects are more favourable (and tution is far cheaper).

Fair enough. My post is more directed to those who want to practice in America with 150k+ debt.

"I want to work in public service."

Good luck paying of your loans on 40k a year whilst living in a big city.

[tng11]

Well, there's always the chance that the economy will improve by the time you graduate. I'll be graduating in 2016 if I enter right from UG...but then again it could also get worse.

I entered my UG in 2007... everything was rosy, people were getting Big 4 offers left and right, and Canadian i-banking jobs weren't that difficult to find. Fast forward to today, plenty of CA students without jobs and people in Finance even with prestigious internships haven't gotten a single offer after dozens of interviews. So maybe my personal bias leads me to be overly pessimistic, but these days I tend to think a lot more conservatively.



As Asad_A203 said, your chances of getting biglaw from CCN are in your favour, as the majority of the class IS in the top 66%. Plus if you're so sure you're going to land in the bottom third then Harvard won't save you anyways; bottom of the class at H is also screwed.

TLS seems to have this opinion where LS is this magical place where your grades are determined by the roll of a dice and ABSOLUTELY CANNOT be predicted. Well I don't know how true that is... I work at the law library at UofT and I've had a look through a respectable chunk of their past exams and I don't see anything supernatural about them. They are all case-based, which means you need to 1. prepare (i.e. have good work ethic) and 2. be smart, to do well. Like any exam.

Maybe I should just transfer to Ivey for finance and forget LS... :'(

I never approach something with the BIG assumption that I will finish above average, I always tell myself that I'll give as close to 100% as I can and whatever happens, happens. Relative performance matters more, and it's something I can't get too smug about before I even enter law school. On case-based business exams I tend to find there's very little correlation between how much I study and the final grade I get. I've walked into exams and left thinking I failed them and gotten A+s, while the exams I feel the most confident about are typically my lower grades.

[Asad_A203]

I think Keile was just making the point that going into law isn't as great as one might have thought. S/he speaks from having a close relative in law. This isn't as irrelevant as you argue. This is a person currently in law, who might have had the same rosy picture of going into law as some of you might (or do) have.

I think you (Asad) are the one who is getting emotional about what was said (ie. checkout your long well thought out (pretty gosh damn formal) counter argument against what wasn't even an argument to begin with + your follow up argument + the post that will follow this one where you will likely defend your position (again) (because you need to for some reason?)). I think you are trying to justify your (life) decision to go into law, and feel insecure about someone (Keile) talking down that decision. I mean, why else would you feel so obligated to spend so much effort replying to something like that then?

When someone says something like:


Frankly, if all of you are still considering going to law school in the US after being made explicitly clear the dire state of the job market and 100k+ debt racket, you deserve to be unemployed and drowning in your own bile


I take offense to that as it really is unwarranted advice. Not all law schools are created or treated equally within the states. In regards to my response, if you have seen any of my other responses (even before I have studied for the LSAT or considered law school) in any other topic; you will notice I write like this all the time. I can't exactly help it, this is just how I view responses in a forum. Nearly everything we do consists of arguments, but it doesn't mean it has to conotate a negative attitude.

Also, just because you may view my posts as being long and formal, it doesn't mean that I am arguing to rationalize hedonic influences; even if the argument at stake may relate to my career choice. I am not discrediting Keile position on lower ranked schools, but to say T14s face the same employment prospect as a Tier 4 law school is foolish.



My brother holds a pretty senior lawyer position in Canada at a big firm and thus has experience working with lawyers in the United States. This being the case, I don't believe his testimony comes from simply being the beneficiary of serendipitous gossip. Commentators, both from within the law field and out of it, have been reiterating what I've said for the past year or so with regards to law in different tones at Top Law Schools.com, the New York Times, the Economist and elsewhere. I'm afraid the only person not willing or able to face the music is you.



Do you read any law articles at all? About law or anything? Check the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/business/26lawyers.html
Downturn Dims Prospects Even at Top Law Schools (2009)


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&ref=business
Is Law School a Losing Game?(2010)

To be honest, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.



These are Columbia statistics, and Columbia performs well in the job market. Still, it is only fair to warn you:


I am not even sure if I should continue responding as you are not even addressing my points (which I have already reiterated before).

No where did I mention that the law market in America is rosy, or that JDs in America have a good potential to practice in biglaw or even legal jobs. The fact is the American legal market supply is over saturated, and there are too many schools with questionable standards graduating students for ridiculous amount of tuition fees. My argument has only been for T14 schools which you seem to believe are equivalent to every other law school out there. The fact is that unemployment for a T14 grad (especially from HYSCCN) is very unlkely. Does that mean that everyone who attends these schools will land a job? Obviously not or else NYT wouldn't be writing about some of these individuals but you have a greater chance of being employed than unemployed at most of these T14 schools (I would even say within the legal sector but I won't go that far). There are other skills in play that will affect your employment beyond school (and this applies for everything).

I don't think anyone in this thread would consider practicing in the states if they could not attend a T14 (my own standard right now is HYSC or bust), as the risk is significantly higher than in the Canadian market given the debt load. I fully understand (and explicitly mentioned) that one of the reasons why the law market is horrible in the states is because of crappy law schools over saturating the market. The sad part is that law school has probably become more of a business than a place that facilitates learning. Ex. someone attending a Tier 4 law school, paying 50k/year and thinking that they will earn the same as a Harvard graduate.


Edit: I should also add, that Canada is not sheltered from this as much as your original post would dictate. Career prospects in much of Canada for lawyers is just as crappy as in the states, although we have a tighter control on the supply of lawyers in the market. Our law schools are significantly cheaper on the average though.

[Keile]

but you have a greater chance of being employed than unemployed at most of these T14 schools.

This depends on how you define employment. I do not think working at a public relations for 35k a year after weedling your way into a a 140k debt sinkhole necessarily classifies as "working", at least with regards to a cost/benefit law school analysis.


The fact is that unemployment for a T14 grad (especially from HYSCCN) is very unlkely.

By "job", are we referring to employment upon graduation whereby an graduating student will garner a salary high enough to comfortably begin and summarily continue the process of paying off loans while still being in a position to maintain a higher quality of life than would otherwise have been the case were said student to have decided to get a job, rather than attend law school, right after undergrad? Because this is all I am ready to debate about. For employment in this context to matter at all, it must both be gainful (which effectively means it must involve a high salary) as well as directly or almost directly after 3L graduation (getting into biglaw is an uphill batter for anyone who isn't able to interview and get callbacks).

With these definitions in mind, I refer to the single piece of corroborating evidence for my claim, which is this: 1) There is not a guaranteed gainful and immediate "job" at ANY of the T14.

Here it is: The Harvard out campus recruiting event in 2009 supposedly featured 590 2Ls, with only an (admittedly uncomfirmed) average of around 384 participants having received averages after all was said and done. This may or may not be the true statistic, but it is the one most touted about and assuming it's accurate (or even close), then it means only about 65% participants received job offers from what may or may not have been a near flush of BigLaw firms in 2009.

On the face of things, this essentially means many of the T14, both in the lower and higher echelon, were shocked out of the job market in 2009, and quite possibly in 2010 too. If the most reputable law school school in America had a 70% callback rate when it came to on-campus recruiting, the the lower T14 likely went cold.

[tng11]

For anyone who's gearing up for the June LSAT:

How are you going to use these last few weeks? I feel that I've hit a point where there's not much else I can do, only have about 6 untouched PTs to do, and the anxiety is already starting to kill me...