changing brake pads

[aximrocks]

I find that I need to apply more pressure to stop the car than I used to. Is it time to change the brakes? Can someone price me what would cost me to do the following items for a 2005 Camry (50,000 km) including parts & labor

- flush brake fluid
- replace front pads
- replace rotors

any good mechanic @ reasonable rates in Mississauga?

[trixstar]

your brakes will automatically adjust so you shouldn't be feeling a big difference even if it was worn out.. If your brakes are totally gone, then I believe you have ruined your brake rotors as well... it would have been better if you took car of your car and to replace the brake pads when necessary so it wouldn't damage your rotors.. Anyhow to do that all that at the dealer will cost you about $400 or more... unless you can do it yourself. It's fairly simple.

as to purchasing new rotors, I can machine your rotor so they'll be factory fresh.. I charge $30 to redo a rotor.

[cq358]

Is your Camry a 4 cyl or a v6?


Est. Door rate $70/hr..

Labour
R&R front Pads and machine rotors 2.5 hr...$175
R&R front Pads and rotors 1.5-1.8 hr....$110-124 approx
Rear brakes service .6 hr..$42
Bleed brakes .8 hr..$56..

Rotors Non Toyota.. whosl. 35.... Retail 58 ea
Rotors Toyota whosl 78 95 ea


Front Pads Toyota whosl 50 70
Toyota Brake fluid whosl 5 retail 8.50/bottle Rqd 2


around $ 500 if you choose to replace no name rotors..but still you can talk him down to around $430..

[trixstar]

wow, 2.5 hrs to replace brake pads and machine front rotors? I could do it all in 1.5 hours max.. machining a rotor takes a maximum of 15 minutes each if done with precision and care.

[Engi-Nir]

I just get my mechanic to do it, comes about $220 total, front rotors(2x) and front brakes(4x) all brand new. My friends and I never had any issues with his quality of pads/rotors, over a year now ;) he provides one yr warranty.

You can buy your rotors/pads from autosource, etc and have someone install it (50bucks or so).

If your rotor has never been surfaced before, then you get get some new pads and have the rotors machined. (~$100 bucks)

50k clicks is too soon for a brake job, you must have a heavy foot ;)

[Audiogenic]

Don't bother maching rotors...it thins them out and they warp faster....better to invest in new ones. If you are close to the border, go to a toyota dealership in the US and get brake work done there much cheaper than here.

[Pete_Coach]

wow, 2.5 hrs to replace brake pads and machine front rotors? I could do it all in 1.5 hours max.. machining a rotor takes a maximum of 15 minutes each if done with precision and care.

I will call you out on this statement. No, you cannot do this in 15 minutes. It takes you longer to prep the car and rotors to do the job than that.
If you really are a mechanic, you would never have said that.
While I agree a very experienced tech can do the job in less than the flat rate, it can also take much longer, depending on the condition of the attaching hardware etc, You will still only be charged the flat rate.

OP, often, in today's cars, there is not enough material to turn rotors. They are often manufactured to minimum specs. New rotors are as cheap as machining and quicker to turn the car around. Honestly, if you are not feeling any pulsation in your pedal, then the rotors are not warped and should be OK. The rotors could be scored or grooved to the extent that they need replacement though.
Don't let them sell you new rotors because there is rust on the extreme edges of the rotor, there will always be rust there, the working surface (where pads meat the rotors) is where you need clean surfaces, the edges don't matter. Also, discolouration is not a reason for scrapping rotors. They are meant to be heated, friction is what stops you.

[KorruptioN]

as to purchasing new rotors, I can machine your rotor so they'll be factory fresh.. I charge $30 to redo a rotor.


wow, 2.5 hrs to replace brake pads and machine front rotors? I could do it all in 1.5 hours max.. machining a rotor takes a maximum of 15 minutes each if done with precision and care.

Since when did you become a mechanic?

[JAGpilot]

You don't usually have to replace pads or rotors at 50K, especially on a Toyota. My dad only replaced his pads and rear rotors at about 70K on his ES330 (05).

[radeonboy]

your brakes will automatically adjust so you shouldn't be feeling a big difference even if it was worn out.. If your brakes are totally gone, then I believe you have ruined your brake rotors as well... it would have been better if you took car of your car and to replace the brake pads when necessary so it wouldn't damage your rotors.. Anyhow to do that all that at the dealer will cost you about $400 or more... unless you can do it yourself. It's fairly simple.

as to purchasing new rotors, I can machine your rotor so they'll be factory fresh.. I charge $30 to redo a rotor.

Why would you machine when you can get a rotor for the same price?

[radeonboy]

You don't usually have to replace pads or rotors at 50K, especially on a Toyota. My dad only replaced his pads and rear rotors at about 70K on his ES330 (05).

this is true, it might be still too early to do so. I'd have to see how much is left before deciding whether to change it. again i dont know how he drives so...

[l69norm]

....Don't let them sell you new rotors because there is rust on the extreme edges of the rotor, there will always be rust there, the working surface (where pads meat the rotors) is where you need clean surfaces, the edges don't matter. ....

Actually, rust is a major reason why some rotors have to be replaced and cannot be turned.

The brake pads get wet and forms rust when they sit against the rotor overnight. The rust causes pitting on the rotor surface. A pitted rotor cannot be turned as the cutter head will dig in and gouge, so it would have to be replaced.

Some OEM pads have a special coating to help prevent this. Some OEM rotors are also coated as well (GM comes to mind here). This also why some OEM brake parts are double the cost of generic replacement brake parts.

[Pete_Coach]

Actually, rust is a major reason why some rotors have to be replaced and cannot be turned.

The brake pads get wet and forms rust when they sit against the rotor overnight. The rust causes pitting on the rotor surface. A pitted rotor cannot be turned as the cutter head will dig in and gouge, so it would have to be replaced.

Some OEM pads have a special coating to help prevent this. Some OEM rotors are also coated as well (GM comes to mind here). This also why some OEM brake parts are double the cost of generic replacement brake parts.

Yes they can pit and get scored, I said that.
When turning (which probably won't happen anyway, but nontheless) the prep is to first brush then scrape the rust and high spots off with tooling, not the cutting blade. That is regardless whether you are using a device on the car or if you remove the rotor and do it on a lathe. It is pretty basic machining techniques.
I am interested in the "special coating" that prevents them from rusting on though. Can you elaborate? Whatever coating is on rotors would very soon wear off due to the high temps created by the friction of applying the brakes. As a matter of fact, you should prep the rotors and clean them very well on installation. You don't want anything on them.

[cq358]

I will call you out on this statement. No, you cannot do this in 15 minutes. It takes you longer to prep the car and rotors to do the job than that.
If you really are a mechanic, you would never have said that.
While I agree a very experienced tech can do the job in less than the flat rate, it can also take much longer, depending on the condition of the attaching hardware etc, You will still only be charged the flat rate.

OP, often, in today's cars, there is not enough material to turn rotors. They are often manufactured to minimum specs. New rotors are as cheap as machining and quicker to turn the car around. Honestly, if you are not feeling any pulsation in your pedal, then the rotors are not warped and should be OK. The rotors could be scored or grooved to the extent that they need replacement though.
Don't let them sell you new rotors because there is rust on the extreme edges of the rotor, there will always be rust there, the working surface (where pads meat the rotors) is where you need clean surfaces, the edges don't matter. Also, discolouration is not a reason for scrapping rotors. They are meant to be heated, friction is what stops you.

+1

I would suggest you to ask someone to do the brake inspection and a proper estimate first before asking for replacing/ machining rotors.

Rust errosion is very bad for brakes, especially the rear disc brakes. This is probamatic since the rear brakes only do 30% of breaking plus the stop and short distance drive cannot really warm up the breaks and keeping the contact points and and pin from rusting. That why you will see many car with 90k already have seized rear calipers. In a general rule of thumb to keep the calipers form seizing is to replace pads when they wore down to 30%.

I had seen an Avalon with 20k with only 25% of the front pads left. Brake wear is depended on how the person drives.

I haven't been working in a dealership for a while. However, I am aware that since the first 3yr(60 000km) warranty will cover the machine rotors. But like Pete had just said, there is no need to make your rotor thinner unless you have break pulsation.

[mtseymourguy]

extremely unlikely you need rotors. you can likely get them for $15 each at lordco. anyone mention machining them, just walk away. make sure you get your caliper sliding pins greased regularly.

autopartsway.ca sells rotors for $27 each which is expensive. cdn tire is even more expensive with rotors for some reason.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cheapest at rock auto is $28US

RAYBESTOS Part # 96217R {Professional Grade Outside Diameter 10.82" / 5 Bolt Holes}
Front; Plain Hat Rotor Design $27.99 US at rock auto




autopartsway.ca

Click Image to Enlarge Brake Disc
Brand: PBR
Part # W0133-1623885
Fits: Front /
Product Weight: 15.95 lb
Minimum Order Quantity: 1
Leaves Warehouse: by 10:30 P Monday
Chassis ID: ACV30

MSRP: $101.86 Your Price: $27.71

[radeonboy]

extremely unlikely you need rotors. you can likely get them for $15 each at lordco. anyone mention machining them, just walk away. make sure you get your caliper sliding pins greased regularly.

autopartsway.ca sells rotors for $27 each which is expensive. cdn tire is even more expensive with rotors for some reason.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cheapest at rock auto is $28US

RAYBESTOS Part # 96217R {Professional Grade Outside Diameter 10.82" / 5 Bolt Holes}
Front; Plain Hat Rotor Design $27.99 US at rock auto




autopartsway.ca

Click Image to Enlarge Brake Disc
Brand: PBR
Part # W0133-1623885
Fits: Front /
Product Weight: 15.95 lb
Minimum Order Quantity: 1
Leaves Warehouse: by 10:30 P Monday
Chassis ID: ACV30

MSRP: $101.86 Your Price: $27.71

You can find about the same price if you look hard enough locally. But RockAuto is good too for Canadians.

[mtseymourguy]

You can find about the same price if you look hard enough locally. But RockAuto is good too for Canadians.

be careful though because the exchange rate is 1.3.

[radeonboy]

be careful though because the exchange rate is 1.3.

true that, i totally forgot :D

You still can find that price locally.

[l69norm]

....When turning (which probably won't happen anyway, but nontheless) the prep is to first brush then scrape the rust and high spots off with tooling, not the cutting blade. That is regardless whether you are using a device on the car or if you remove the rotor and do it on a lathe. It is pretty basic machining techniques....I am interested in the "special coating" that prevents them from rusting on though. Can you elaborate? Whatever coating is on rotors would very soon wear off due to the high temps created by the friction of applying the brakes. As a matter of fact, you should prep the rotors and clean them very well on installation. You don't want anything on them.....

The pits and voids are deep into the rotor surface itself, not on the surface so they cannot be scraped off. Some can be as large as a quarter (i.e. the machined surface has come right off the rotor face). As the other poster said, the problem is most likely to occur on rear disks as they never get hot enough to dry out fully under normal use. The symptoms are the same as a "warped" rotor in that there are strong pulsations under braking.

The coating is a dull gray "primer" (probably a zinc rich compound) that sprayed on all surfaces of the pads. The coating on the pad faces burns off, but the coating on the sides of pads (and back) prevent water from soaking into the pad. Water that enters via the exposed pad face boils off during braking.

From what I can remember, the rotor is also coated except for the area swept by the pads similar to:
http://www.modbargains.com/zoom_img/Centric_120_Rotor_Ford_Expedition_DC_1200494117.jp g

The rotor/pad combination is probably twice as rust resistant as the equivalent non coated parts. OEM GM rotors and pads use this coating. Probably other manufacturers have the same.

[Pete_Coach]

The pits and voids are deep into the rotor surface itself, not on the surface so they cannot be scraped off. Some can be as large as a quarter (i.e. the machined surface has come right off the rotor face). As the other poster said, the problem is most likely to occur on rear disks as they never get hot enough to dry out fully under normal use. The symptoms are the same as a "warped" rotor in that there are strong pulsations under braking.

The coating is a dull gray "primer" (probably a zinc rich compound) that sprayed on all surfaces of the pads. The coating on the pad faces burns off, but the coating on the sides of pads (and back) prevent water from soaking into the pad. Water that enters via the exposed pad face boils off during braking.

From what I can remember, the rotor is also coated except for the area swept by the pads similar to:


The rotor/pad combination is probably twice as rust resistant as the equivalent non coated parts. OEM GM rotors and pads use this coating. Probably other manufacturers have the same.

I will try and explain my position on this I say that almost all stock and every lower priced after market rotors are basically cold steel. Some even rust overnight, some will rust from their moisture in your breath. There is no plasma coating on the friction surface (plasma spraying being the only way the coating would stay adhered under the heat and friction of braking) on anything other than very high end brake rotors. The primary reason for replacing rotors due to rust is not the surface rust but in fact that rust has clogged the vanes and therefore no more cooling air can flow through the rotors. Pitting and spalling was not in dispute, but this is not necessarily caused by rust. Cold steel rotors are susceptible to this type of damage as it is not heat treated to a very high standard if at all.
As for the pads, you are correct, there is a paint on the edges of the brake pad, but it is really more of a manufacturing issue than a preventative for moisture intrusion. The entire pad is paint dipped during manufacture (backing plate and all) then the pad working surface is machined clean. Your theory of moisture being absorbed into the brake pad material is flawed. If moisture was able to penetrate, why would it not stop? Why would the pad not swell up like dry bread soaking up egg mixture when making french toast? Why would the pad material not just break apart with the freeze and thaw in winters? Water "boiling off" would presume that there would be horrendous braking capability until the pad is dry and can produce proper friction to stop the car. Brake pads are impervious to water and most liquids, they do "soak" up some petroleum or lubricants but that is more from the effect of those products braking down the binding agents used in manufacture of the pad.

[l69norm]

All I'll say is the coatings do work despite whatever conspiracy theories you come up. It's definitely not a paint or your "plasma" coating. The coating looks like ELPO. You can put these coated parts on a problem car and they will last.

Try them the next time and see for yourself

[Pete_Coach]

All I'll say is the coatings do work despite whatever conspiracy theories you come up. It's definitely not a paint. You can put these coated parts on a problem car and they will last.

Try them the next time and see for yourself
Are things you don't understand all conspiracy theories? When you get some experience working on cars, you will begin to understand nuances, marketing and actual cause and effect. Reading marketing information or brochures does not make it so.
Whether you dip it, paint it or powder coat it, the purpose is the same, call it what you want. I don't have to try any of them, I have replaced hundreds, from asbestos to organic, to metallic to semi metallic to quasi-carbon and have come to the conclusion, simple is best. Wear items like brakes are so dependent on the user, there is no valid way of making comparisons in actual day to day use.
Go ahead, pay more. I'm done.

[microserf]

According what you described I would suggest you first check the air filter or replace it if it is necessary. I experienced lately the brake job has been done but the heavy brake still there. It only has 40k km on odometer. Finally it is caused by the dirty air filter. At that time I already wondered why I have to replace the brake that early. I am not the heavy driver. Fortunately it only cost me 170. Most of people will always stuck into that problem. It is only suggestion and might help you resolve the problem. Good luck.

[Billa-786]

You don't usually have to replace pads or rotors at 50K, especially on a Toyota. My dad only replaced his pads and rear rotors at about 70K on his ES330 (05).

Depends on the car and way you drive it. I tend to replace my brake pads every 50K but then again I do 85% city driving and am not gentle on the brakes.

[l69norm]

Are things you don't understand all conspiracy theories? When you get some experience working on cars,.....blah... blah ...

Here's pictures from a couple of vehicles that with rotors that are 2-3 years old:
Picture 1 is the rear rotor from a Mazda:
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/l69norm/mazda.jpg
The green lines show the rotor face and hat. The blue area of the rotor face is being swept by the pads with some surface rust due to lack of use. The red area isn't being swept so it's very rusty. I'm not that familiar with Mazda, but if there is a problem with the pads you could not "turn" this rotor due to the rust on the red section.

Picture 2 is a coated OEM rear rotor from a GM product:
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/l69norm/chevy.jpg
Again, the rotor face and hat are shown by the green lines. The swept surface is shown in blue. It's very even wear with little surface rust. The gray factory coating is still visible in the purple circle. The camera flash makes the coating look shiny, but it's actually a dull gray color like ELPO primer.

While it's not a true apples to apples comparison, I think the pictures speak for themselves on how well the coatings works. Most new GM products come from the factory with coated rotors/pads and I think also think other manufacturers are using them on new cars as well.

I haven't personally come across aftermarket coated rotors/pads here yet. The coated ones I've used are factory replacement parts and are quite expensive (about double the price of aftermarket, just as any other factory part is).

You should have an open mind and get out from behind the keyboard. This is real world. Ask around and/or try them for yourself. I think you'll be pleased with the results.

[radeonboy]

A brand offering Zinc/cadmium plating rotors like GM has is Powerslot Cyro.

http://www.autosupermart.com/store/shop/brands/powerslot.html

Brembo also has an option to Zinc plate their rotors too...

GOLD ZINC PLATING
The drilled or slotted rotors are coated by Brembo in a zinc/cadmium plating to help prevent rust and ensure rotor longevity.