30day Notice + Required to Train replacement, legal?

[tdott]

A friend of my wife got this.

I find this outrageous:
- She was given 30 days notice of her termination
- Only after she trains her outsourced replacement will she receive her severance
- They are almost refusing to let her take her remaining vacation and personal days
- If she leaves before the 30days it would be as if she quit and will loose all her severance

Is there anything she can do legally? Constructive dismissal?

I'm not sure what i would do if this was me, probably just half ass the training. Something tells me there is nothing a person can do about this legally and that employers are allowed to screw employees like this. Unless there is something about this in the employments standards act?

Do people actually do this?

[ullyeus]

A friend of my wife got this.

I find this outrageous:
- She was given 30 days notice of her termination


That's far more than most people get....



- Only after she trains her outsourced replacement will she receive her severance

Nice of them to give her a severance.



- They are almost refusing to let her take her remaining vacation and personal days

If she has earned them then they need to let her take them or pay them out to her.



- If she leaves before the 30days it would be as if she quit and will loose all her severance

Well..yeah..of course it would be...



Is there anything she can do legally? Constructive dismissal?

Did they offer to pay her out her vacation? That's the only thing that I see being an issue here.

[rilhouse]

yup, nothing you can do about that. it sucks having to train your replacement but like you said, you don't have to do a great job. :twisted:

[Chanpod]

A friend of my wife got this.

I find this outrageous:
- She was given 30 days notice of her termination
- Only after she trains her outsourced replacement will she receive her severance
- They are almost refusing to let her take her remaining vacation and personal days
- If she leaves before the 30days it would be as if she quit and will loose all her severance

Is there anything she can do legally? Constructive dismissal?

I'm not sure what i would do if this was me, probably just half ass the training. Something tells me there is nothing a person can do about this legally and that employers are allowed to screw employees like this. Unless there is something about this in the employments standards act?

Do people actually do this?

I wonder if the company doing this is CGI...

A family member works there.... they are training an indian who came over for 2 months whom will eventually go back to train his colleagues that will replace the department and eliminate the workers in the Markham offices.

[random pattern]

well, assuming no written employment contract the notice period is generally based on a number of factors - length of her employment, type of position, her age etc. 30 days could be generous or skimpy - hard to tell without knowing more facts.

severance pay, if she is entitled, has to be paid to her once she is terminated.

vacation typically has to be authorized by the employer, otherwise she will be paid for the earned, unused days upon termination.

[cOmAtOaSt]

Have her stay up for 3 days, go see her doctor, and go off on a stress leave.

[pitz]

Unfortunate situation.

"Notice" is exactly that -- notice. "Severance" is technically, "pay in lieu of notice". If the company granted notice that her services would no longer be required, then, assuming that notice was of a sufficient length, then they are not obliged to provide any additional pay in lieu.

Typically businesses who are laying someone off don't want them around anymore effective immediately, to prevent things like sabotage, taking client lists, demoralization of staff who remain, etc., hence, the concept of the 'severance' package. But there is no obligation whatsoever for an employer to pay someone who isn't actually on the job and working, unless otherwise stipulated in an employment contract.

Furthermore, if a person finds an equivilant replacement job within a 'notice period', if they are being paid in-lieu, they are obligated to repay a portion of the pay-in-lieu of notice received (minus, of course, set-offs for costs associated with finding new employment).

[random pattern]

severance and pay in lieu of notice are two different things. in some circumstances, employers are required to provide severance in addition to notice (or pay in lieu of notice).

[robster77]

If I were her, I'd keep taking the paycheque for 30 days. Do a generally average job at everything, while devoting at least half of the work day towards searching and applying for other jobs. Similiar thing happened at a place where I used to work. The woman given notice didn't have to train anyone, but she essentially knew a month in advance that she was going. She used the work time to search for jobs, and had a new, better job lined up before her last day. They won't fire her if she only has a month left, so as long as she does the "training", seems to me she's free and clear to search for jobs all day.

[pitz]

severance and pay in lieu of notice are two different things. in some circumstances, employers are required to provide severance in addition to notice (or pay in lieu of notice).

I've never heard of that; severance has always been damages in lieu of giving proper notice (as required under contract, under statute, or as dictated in the common law), unless, of course, a seperate payment was negotiated into an employment contract.

Do you have any references, legislative or otherwise, where 'severance' and 'pay in lieu of notice' are distinct?

[any007]

lots of tech companies are doing this these days.
the payment (severance) at the end is the incentive to help with the knowledge transfer.
as someone has said, if she doesn't like it, she can leave and they'll payout whatever is owing for vacation.
However, no payment for staying and the ROE will say quit which would mean no EI eligibility.
where I am now, the entire programming staff is being let go. They provided programmers up to a year's notice. the time is to transition knowledge to an indian outsourcing company. But the people are free to leave anytime, just that it'll be considering quitting. To get the severance, they have to stay until the date in their agreement.

[teoconca]

I wonder if the company doing this is CGI...

A family member works there.... they are training an indian who came over for 2 months whom will eventually go back to train his colleagues that will replace the department and eliminate the workers in the Markham offices.

CGI wouldn't handle like this. It is too nice to get severance pay easily like that. They kill people slowly. After you trained someone else who took your job they would try (?) to put you somewhere else. They put you on the bench and make you feel useless. Then they would ask you to take vacation day, then they would lay you off temporary without recalling dates. Getting severance package is better than slow death.

[GonePostal]

I've never heard of that; severance has always been damages in lieu of giving proper notice (as required under contract, under statute, or as dictated in the common law), unless, of course, a seperate payment was negotiated into an employment contract.

Do you have any references, legislative or otherwise, where 'severance' and 'pay in lieu of notice' are distinct?

"The termination-of-employment rules are entirely separate from any entitlements an employee may have to be paid severance pay under the ESA."

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/guide/guide_15.html

[random pattern]

the link above explains notice/pay and the one below explains severance, though always better to look right to the act.

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/guide/guide_16.html

also, as i alluded to above, the esa just provides for statutory minimums.

[airodus]

Looks very fair to me.


- She was given 30 days notice of her termination

That's more than sufficient notice unless otherwise stipulated in her employment contract. By default, they are under no obligation to give any notice.


- Only after she trains her outsourced replacement will she receive her severance

That's fair too. The conditions of her employment for the remaining 30 days will be to complete any tasks assigned by her employer (even if it means training her replacement). If she does not perform her duties, than she can be terminated with cause.


- They are almost refusing to let her take her remaining vacation and personal days

Most vacations need to be approved by the employer. In this case, they are just letting her know that any requests will be declined. This is to ensure that she works sufficient days in order to train her replacement.


- If she leaves before the 30days it would be as if she quit and will loose all her severance

Generally you do not get severance if you quit, so this makes sense too.

===

Put yourself in the shoes of the employer to try to understand the situation. They have to make business decisions in tough times. Frankly, I have seen much, much worse situations in the last year. I know a couple people who worked at Nortel for over 10 years and ended up with this: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/37331

[random pattern]

^^^ i don't think your post is completely accurate. a good starting point is the links that were posted earlier.

[bembem]

Overall, losing a job is an unfortunate situation to be in... but you have to pick and choose your battles.

She could argue that 'training' was never in her job description... etc... etc...

But in the end, arguing won't change the fact that she'll be out of a job in 30 days so why not spin everything in your favor.

In exchange for being more flexible, working extra OT, etc... etc... ask for a letter of recommendation. Don't burn any bridges, and might as well max out your hours for EI.

For every door that slams on your face, another one will slab on your bum.