Failure to Stop at Red Light ticket- info

[hi-tech]

I was exiting the 403 WB via the ramp on to Winston Churchill yesterday, and did not completely stop at the red light in order to turn right. An OPP officer saw me and pulled me over, issued me a 144 (18) Failure to Stop at a Red Light ticket with a fine of $180 and 3 demerit points.

My question, what is my course of action?

I've called a number of traffic lawyers/paralegals who are all charging around $250~$280 and say that its relatively easy to reduce the demerit points to zero and have the fine reduced to $100. Is it worth it though? My record is pretty volatile as I'm only 23 and have 1 at-fault accident under my record already. Would 3 demerit points substantially increase my insurance rates?

Another option is to pay it and accept guilt...which I don't plan on doing.

Finally, I could just fight the ticket my self, but I doubt the court would believe my word over the OPP's and on top that, hoping that they won't show in court for something like this seems pretty unlikely. Maybe I could plead with the court that I'm a student and can't be burdened with this kind of financial strain.

Which do you think would be the most sensible option?

[thelefteyeguy]

doh...another one...have you tried searching the forum first? :lol:

btw...for insurance purposes...you want to throw the charges out (a reduction isnt going to help you for the next 3 years)

[myapple]

I was exiting the 403 WB via the ramp on to Winston Churchill yesterday, and did not completely stop at the red light in order to turn right. An OPP officer saw me and pulled me over, issued me a 144 (18) Failure to Stop at a Red Light ticket with a fine of $180 and 3 demerit points.

My question, what is my course of action?

I've called a number of traffic lawyers/paralegals who are all charging around $250~$280 and say that its relatively easy to reduce the demerit points to zero and have the fine reduced to $100. Is it worth it though? My record is pretty volatile as I'm only 23 and have 1 at-fault accident under my record already. Would 3 demerit points substantially increase my insurance rates?

Another option is to pay it and accept guilt...which I don't plan on doing.

Finally, I could just fight the ticket my self, but I doubt the court would believe my word over the OPP's and on top that, hoping that they won't show in court for something like this seems pretty unlikely. Maybe I could plead with the court that I'm a student and can't be burdened with this kind of financial strain.

Which do you think would be the most sensible option?
Go file your intent to appear in court notice (aka challenge ticket). When the time comes (after 6+ months), go to court a bit earlier and speak with the prosecutor BEFORE the trial time. You can ask if the officer is present. If they do not show up, plead not guilty and the charge will be dropped. If the office is present, the prosecutor will offer you the chance to plead guilty to a lesser charge. You can do this all yourself. You do NOT need to pay any paralegal/lawyer hundreds of dollars to do this for you.

[tyfriend]

1. File for a court date.
2. File for disclosure.
3. At least 10 days before, change the time of the court date.
4. Hope the witness does not show up. If he is present and you are unprepared ask the prosecutor to plead guilt to a lesser charge or a reduction of your demerit points.

[Narci]

keep this in mind...

insurance companies look at convictions. even if you reduce the demerit points to zero and lower the fine, your still guilty, therefore insurance companies will take that into account when reviewing your insurance rates.

whether insurance companies increase your rates depends if they review your file every year. every company is different and that's why you see some people say it will not effect and some will. i for one had experienced both sides. one year they reviewed and increase due to a traffic onviction, one year they didn't increase even though i had a traffic conviction.

[tjayl]

I was exiting the 403 WB via the ramp on to Winston Churchill yesterday, and did not completely stop at the red light in order to turn right. .....

I doubt the court would believe my word over the OPP's

They should take your word equally to the OPP since both of you would be saying that you didn't completly stop at the light. Unless you plan on lying in court.

[watungga]

Some cases, police do not appear in court, so then you have the probability on your side. Compare it to paying outright and accept the charge, you are like.. commiting suicide.

What was your slowest speed you made in turning right?

[mkerian]

They should take your word equally to the OPP since both of you would be saying that you didn't completly stop at the light. Unless you plan on lying in court.

+1 A rolling stop is not a complete stop. If you actually did not completely stop, than you would have to lie to beat the charge.



What was your slowest speed you made in turning right?

Why does that matter? Legally, turning right at a red requires you to come to a complete stop.

[glacierice]

You didn't stop and you got a ticket with a cop right there, what a surprise! My advice is stop at red lights idiot.

[phht]

........ Maybe I could plead with the court that I'm a student and can't be burdened with this kind of financial strain.

Which do you think would be the most sensible option?

That won't do you any good, it's suicidal. Learn how to deal with ticket from www.ticketcombat.com.
First and foremost choose option 3 to contest the charge, then ask for disclosure. That will lay all the ground work for any future action whether you decide to hire a paralegal or defend it yourself or plead guilty to a lesser charge.

[hi-tech]

You didn't stop and you got a ticket with a cop right there, what a surprise! My advice is stop at red lights idiot.

Easy there Mr. Righteous. It was 2 am and I was slowed down to 5 km/h and saw absolutely nothing in sight. Right turns don't need to be that complicated.

Anyways, another thing I wanted to know is that if its an OPP officer would it be more likely that he would not show in court? His accent was a Northern Ontario accent. Definitely not a GTA one.

[tokajim]

My record is pretty volatile as I'm only 23 and have 1 at-fault accident under my record already.

Another option is to pay it and accept guilt...which I don't plan on doing.


Of course you won't... I don't know, maybe it's time to drop the 'I know what to do for a right turn' shtick and just follow traffic rules. Your 'I'm a student so I can't afford the financial burden that my own actions have caused' defense is poor as well.

I'll just add you should definitely fight the ticket, if nothing else to get the fine/charge reduced.

[tcharged]

unbelievable. This just happened to me this morning. OP, did you get out of your ticket? Not sure the best way to proceed right now, definitely fighting it though. I have a clean driving record too.

[vero95]

why is that unbelievable? from my observations 99% of cars do not stop on red when turning right
did you stop?

[longitude]

Option (3), plead not guilty.

If English isn't your first language, then request an interpreter.

Delay as much as you can.

Thanks.

[spf1971]

Easy there Mr. Righteous. It was 2 am and I was slowed down to 5 km/h and saw absolutely nothing in sight. Right turns don't need to be that complicated.

Anyways, another thing I wanted to know is that if its an OPP officer would it be more likely that he would not show in court? His accent was a Northern Ontario accent. Definitely not a GTA one.

You're absolutely correct, right turns, or any turn, doesn't have to be complicated. RED = STOP. That was pretty simple after all.

[TrevorK]

I was exiting the 403 WB via the ramp on to Winston Churchill yesterday, and did not completely stop at the red light in order to turn right. An OPP officer saw me and pulled me over, issued me a 144 (18) Failure to Stop at a Red Light ticket with a fine of $180 and 3 demerit points.

My question, what is my course of action?


My opinion is that if you agree you didn't stop why would you fight the ticket? It's minor in the grand scheme of things, and it is about taking responsibility for your actions.

Perhaps it will be a lesson learned and reinforce that red means stop, not yield.


There are options available to you to ask for the fine to be reduced or a payment plan setup, so that may be a route to take if you truly cannot afford the ticket. I doubt this is true though, since people that can afford to drive can afford a $200 ticket, however you may be able to get the fine lowered/payment plan setup.

[ak1004]

Go file your intent to appear in court notice (aka challenge ticket). When the time comes (after 6+ months), go to court a bit earlier and speak with the prosecutor BEFORE the trial time. You can ask if the officer is present. If they do not show up, plead not guilty and the charge will be dropped. If the office is present, the prosecutor will offer you the chance to plead guilty to a lesser charge. You can do this all yourself. You do NOT need to pay any paralegal/lawyer hundreds of dollars to do this for you.
Like others mentioned, reducing the fine is meaningless, the conviction still stays on the record and will impact your insurance rates. My friend referred me to a ticket fighter after using his services 4 times. I used him 3 times. All the times the case was dismissed. No conviction in the record. Can you do it by yourself? For me, it was well worth the $250. Believe me, they know how to do it. I’m wondering if anyone on this forum was able to completely dismiss any case.

[ak1004]

My opinion is that if you agree you didn't stop why would you fight the ticket? It's minor in the grand scheme of things, and it is about taking responsibility for your actions.

Perhaps it will be a lesson learned and reinforce that red means stop, not yield.


The problem is not taking responsibility. The problem is that insurance companies are looking for any excuse to raise rates. There is absolutely no connection between most traffic tickets and risk of accident, but your rates will go up regardless. As long as this is the case, most people will look for every possible way to dismiss those tickets. If you want to continue feeding the government and the insurance companies, be my guest..

[akira1971]

My friend referred me to a ticket fighter after using his services 4 times. I used him 3 times.

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/incident-parking-lot-879250/#post10672088





Originally Posted by Tomy
is ur car even damaged at all!?

if it's never been hit/repaired, i don't see anyway they can charge you
It has few very minor scratches (on all 4 corners) that any 3 years old car would have. Definitely not something that could match the $1,000 dent on his car.


The problem is not taking responsibility. The problem is that insurance companies are looking for any excuse to raise rates. There is absolutely no connection between most traffic tickets and risk of accident, but your rates will go up regardless.

Let's see, you've had at least 3 traffic tickets that you've successfully fought off. Your 3-yr-old car had multiple scratches on every corner(!!) from accidents. Hmm, looks like there is a strong correlation between traffic tickets and risk of accidents...

[conix67]

Easy there Mr. Righteous. It was 2 am and I was slowed down to 5 km/h and saw absolutely nothing in sight. Right turns don't need to be that complicated.


Unfortunately, law is law and won't matter time of day or condition of the roads. You are still supposed to follow it.

Yes, it's simple. Red light, you stop. If you're making a right turn, do so at your own risk but make sure it's safe to do so, but first STOP.

[ak1004]

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/incident-parking-lot-879250/#post10672088





Let's see, you've had at least 3 traffic tickets that you've successfully fought off. Your 3-yr-old car had multiple scratches on every corner(!!) from accidents. Hmm, looks like there is a strong correlation between traffic tickets and risk of accidents...
Who said those scratches were caused by accidents? They were so minor that after returning the car to the lease company, they charged me only $200 for one corner, other corners were considered normal wear and tear.

Are you working for the insurance companies by chance? The insurance companies are running the biggest scam, but for some reason you are defending them.

If I get a ticket for “no valid permit” does it increase my chances to be involved in an accident? How about “no driving license” (forgot at home)?

People get thousands of tickets which have absolutely no connection with safe driving. The only purpose of 90% of the tickets is to increase government income and insurance companies’ profits.

BTW, 3 tickets in 7 years - do you consider it too many?

[ak1004]

Unfortunately, law is law and won't matter time of day or condition of the roads. You are still supposed to follow it.

Yes, it's simple. Red light, you stop. If you're making a right turn, do so at your own risk but make sure it's safe to do so, but first STOP.

Come on.. we all know that with perfect visibility and no traffic, there is absolutely no difference between a “complete stop” and slowing to 5kmh and then continuing. Stop pretending like you never do it. Cops should concentrate on really dangerous offences. How often do you see cars flying 160-170kmh on 407 with no police in sight? How often you see 4-5 cars turning left and steeling the traffic light ages after yellow has become red? How many times do you see people cut you? But those offences are hard to catch. So the cops concentrate on the easy ones. And then people hire the ticket fighters who pay the corrupted cops not to come to the court. A perfect system..

[longitude]

Easy there Mr. Righteous. It was 2 am and I was slowed down to 5 km/h and saw absolutely nothing in sight. Right turns don't need to be that complicated.

Anyways, another thing I wanted to know is that if its an OPP officer would it be more likely that he would not show in court? His accent was a Northern Ontario accent. Definitely not a GTA one.

Ignore the righteous trolls.

Fight the ticket, delay as much as you can.

[Bleys007]

I
My record is pretty volatile as I'm only 23 and have 1 at-fault accident under my record already. Would 3 demerit points substantially increase my insurance rates?

My question, what is my course of action?

Maybe I could plead with the court that I'm a student and can't be burdened with this kind of financial strain.

At 23 with a bad record, sounds like driver training would be the best option. If your record is already bad, best thing for you to do is keep it from getting worse (though it seems it already is.)

Also, "I'm too poor to pay for the consequences when I break the law" is generally a bad defence.

[vero95]

At 23 with a bad record, sounds like driver training would be the best option. If your record is already bad, best thing for you to do is keep it from getting worse (though it seems it already is.)

Also, "I'm too poor to pay for the consequences when I break the law" is generally a bad defence.

who does not break traffic laws? if you have a stop sign in the middle of nowhere and no traffic at all, do you stop? what's more stupid: not stopping or charging for not stopping?

[ak1004]

who does not break traffic laws? if you have a stop sign in the middle of nowhere and no traffic at all, do you stop? what's more stupid: not stopping or charging for not stopping?

Well, from government’s point of view, it is not stupid but actually very smart: their budget gets serious boost, insurance companies increase their profits, cops get some extra income, ticket fighters make decent money and everyone is happy (except for the hard working citizen like us who are screwed at every corner).

[poedua]

Come on.. we all know that with perfect visibility and no traffic, there is absolutely no difference between a “complete stop” and slowing to 5kmh and then continuing...

Yes ........there is ........one is a complete stop and the other isn't.


Stop pretending like you never do it...

Can't speak for conix67, but I know in my case, I've never done it.


Cops should concentrate on really dangerous offences. How often do you see cars flying 160-170kmh on 407 with no police in sight? How often you see 4-5 cars turning left and steeling the traffic light ages after yellow has become red?.How many times do you see people cut you? But those offences are hard to catch.

It's not the cops' fault they can't be present every single time anyone on Ontario's highways happens to be clipping along at 160-170kmh or be there every single time someone on Ontario's roads runs a red light.

That said, the cops do their best IMO.


. So the cops concentrate on the easy ones. And then people hire the ticket fighters who pay the corrupted cops not to come to the court. A perfect system..

Oh please.:rolleyes:

Compared to 95% of the other people who get tickets out there trying to beat a ticket when they know full well they're 100% guilty as hell of the violation.

This forum is an on-line watering hole for countless other people getting tickets for violations they're 100% guilty of committing but are scrambling to beat - usually because they're incapable or unwilling to obey the traffic laws. And then, they don't have the guts to be held accountable for their actions and take responsibility for their actions when they get caught. They get caught dead to rights and then automatically start blaming everyone else for their problems ( like blaming and complaining about cops ) - everyone of course, except themselves:lol:

[poedua]

who does not break traffic laws? if you have a stop sign in the middle of nowhere and no traffic at all, do you stop? what's more stupid: not stopping or charging for not stopping?

Yup.

Stopping only takes a few seconds. No big deal.

And, even if I'm at an intersection with a traffic light in the middle of nowhere and no visible traffic is anywhere to be seen in any direction, I just stop and wait on the red and proceed once it turns green .

Like stop signs, I don't intentially run red lights either - bad, bad habit to get into IMO.;)

[TrevorK]

The problem is not taking responsibility. The problem is that insurance companies are looking for any excuse to raise rates. There is absolutely no connection between most traffic tickets and risk of accident, but your rates will go up regardless. As long as this is the case, most people will look for every possible way to dismiss those tickets. If you want to continue feeding the government and the insurance companies, be my guest..

Insurance companies need a way to rate drivers according to their risk in order to reward those with a lower risk profile (to keep the company competitive). It seems fairly easy to understand that a driver who cannot obey the rules of the road on a frequent basis, and is ticketed on a frequent basis, is more likely to cause an accident. I think that's common sense.

How much do you feel is fair for the insurance company to raise your rates when you do not stop at a stop sign? $1000 over a three year period? $500 over a three year period? It seems silly to argue that they shouldn't have a consequence for disobeying the rules of the road (or else they just wouldn't insure those drivers, period). So, what do you think is fair?


Either way, why don't you take the productive step and voice your concerns? In my province enough people complained about insurance that the province regulated the basic rates (liability) so that all drivers were treated in a fair and consistent manner. Insurance companies are able to make a reasonable profit, while motorists are able to have complete transparency as to what their rates (liability) are in case of accident, ticket, etc... This seems like a better solution than weaseling out of the responsibility for your actions, in my opinion.

[longitude]

who does not break traffic laws? if you have a stop sign in the middle of nowhere and no traffic at all, do you stop? what's more stupid: not stopping or charging for not stopping?

+1

[ak1004]

Insurance companies need a way to rate drivers according to their risk in order to reward those with a lower risk profile (to keep the company competitive). It seems fairly easy to understand that a driver who cannot obey the rules of the road on a frequent base, and is ticketed on a frequent basis, is more likely to cause an accident. I think that's common sense.

How much do you feel is fair for the insurance company to raise your rates when you do not stop at a stop sign? $1000 over a three year period? $500 over a three year period? It seems silly to argue that they shouldn't have a consequence for disobeying the rules of the road (or else they just wouldn't insure those drivers, period). So, what do you think is fair?


Either way, why don't you take the productive step and voice your concerns? In my province enough people complained about insurance that the province regulated the basic rates (liability) so that all drivers were treated in a fair and consistent manner. Insurance companies are able to make a reasonable profit, while motorists are able to have complete transparency as to what their rates (liability) are in case of accident, ticket, etc... This seems like a better solution than weaseling out of the responsibility for your actions, in my opinion.
Fair? Okay, lets talk about fair.

When I came to Canada 9 years ago with 18 years of driving experience, I was required to pay $5,000 premium for a 2 years old Chevy. Does it sound fair to you? Does 18 years of driving experience mean nothing only because it is outside Canada or is it just an excuse to charge you crazy rates?

My agent told me that with two tickets my rates will go up 10%. It doesn't matter which tickets. If I forget to renew my sticker, does it make me riskier driver or is it just an excuse?

What is "frequent base"? Two tickets in 3 years is too frequent? I had 4 tickets in 9 years but no single accident or claim - am I too risky or it is just an excuse? I'm a very carefull driver. I always stop at stop sign but not for three seconds - does it make me a risky driver? Do you stop for full three seconds?

If the insurance companies did distinguish between different types of offences to rate risky drivers, I would agree that there is some degree of fairness in this system. Otherwise..

As for "voice your concerns" - are you really that naive? The insurance companies are too strong, there is too much money involved for everyone - the companies, the government, the police, the ticket fighters etc. Do you really believe that small people like us can change things?

[longitude]

fair? Okay, lets talk about fair.

When i came to canada 9 years ago with 18 years of driving experience, i was required to pay $5,000 premium for a 2 years old chevy. Does it sound fair to you? Does 18 years of driving experience mean nothing only because it is outside canada or is it just an excuse to charge you crazy rates?

My agent told me that with two tickets my rates will go up 10%. It doesn't matter which tickets. If i forget to renew my sticker, does it make me riskier driver or is it just an excuse?

What is "frequent base"? Two tickets in 3 years is too frequent? I had 4 tickets in 9 years but no single accident or claim - am i too risky or it is just an excuse? I'm a very carefull driver. I always stop at stop sign but not for three seconds - does it make me a risky driver? Do you stop for full three seconds?

If the insurance companies did distinguish between different types of offences to rate risky drivers, i would agree that there is some degree of fairness in this system. Otherwise..

As for "voice your concerns" - are you really that naive? The insurance companies are too strong, there is too much money involved for everyone - the companies, the government, the police, the ticket fighters etc. Do you really believe that small people like us can change things?

+1

bingo

[hi-tech]

I did manage to get that ticket reduced to $85 with no demerit points, but of course it did affect my rates.

I think the biggest issue in Ontario is the holier-than-thou attitude Ontarians have about the law and their complete denial about the ludicrous view the government has in regards to citizens.

In Ontario, a citizen isn't an individual who should have access to competitive prices and high quality of life. Far from it, everything is stifled from the absurd degree of masochism the general populace of Ontario is inclined towards allows for this. The government and its associated industries view the citizen as a cash cow, that can be counted on any time it needs to feed itself.

Insurance companies have a monopoly, and the GTA has the HIGHEST insurance rates in the world. Higher than NY,NY or L.A or London or even really grimy places like Buffalo or New Orleans.

The best example of this: Motorcycle insurance. Motorcycle insurance is INSANE here.

The police DO NOTHING. The police shouldn't even be called police at this point, they should simply be referred to as traffic nanny's.

Anything that makes your life fun is punished. In Ontario, you live a mundane trivial life or a very expensive one.

[TrevorK]

Fair? Okay, lets talk about fair.

When I came to Canada 9 years ago with 18 years of driving experience, I was required to pay $5,000 premium for a 2 years old Chevy. Does it sound fair to you? Does 18 years of driving experience mean nothing only because it is outside Canada or is it just an excuse to charge you crazy rates?

Yes, it seems completely fair that previous driving experience does not count when you move to Canada. Driving in Canada is different than driving in other countries, and as such, the experience from driving in Germany (for instance) will be completely different than driving in Canada.

Does it suck? Yeah. But it's all things you should be prepared for.

Did your $5000 premium include collision? If so, that seems fair for a new driving. when I was 16 everyone was paying $2500/year for liability on their cars, which seems reasonable. Would I like it to be cheaper? Of course. But I wouldn't want the other drivers (with many years of clean driving) to pay extra when I was a higher risk.


My agent told me that with two tickets my rates will go up 10%. It doesn't matter which tickets. If I forget to renew my sticker, does it make me riskier driver or is it just an excuse?

It seems fair to me that 2 tickets (obviously not registered owner tickets) would raise your premium 10%.


As for "voice your concerns" - are you really that naive? The insurance companies are too strong, there is too much money involved for everyone - the companies, the government, the police, the ticket fighters etc. Do you really believe that small people like us can change things?

Unfortunately I am not. In my province, the most conservative province there is in my opinion, the citizens convinced the provincial government to regulate auto insurance. "Small people" made the change happen in Alberta, it would be naive to think that in a more socialist province like Ontario it's not possible.

[jayt90]

Fair? Okay, lets talk about fair.

When I came to Canada 9 years ago with 18 years of driving experience, I was required to pay $5,000 premium for a 2 years old Chevy. Does it sound fair to you? Does 18 years of driving experience mean nothing only because it is outside Canada or is it just an excuse to charge you crazy rates?

My agent told me that with two tickets my rates will go up 10%. It doesn't matter which tickets. If I forget to renew my sticker, does it make me riskier driver or is it just an excuse?

What is "frequent base"? Two tickets in 3 years is too frequent? I had 4 tickets in 9 years but no single accident or claim - am I too risky or it is just an excuse? I'm a very carefull driver. I always stop at stop sign but not for three seconds - does it make me a risky driver? Do you stop for full three seconds?

If the insurance companies did distinguish between different types of offences to rate risky drivers, I would agree that there is some degree of fairness in this system. Otherwise..

As for "voice your concerns" - are you really that naive? The insurance companies are too strong, there is too much money involved for everyone - the companies, the government, the police, the ticket fighters etc. Do you really believe that small people like us can change things?

Four tickets in in nine years is on the verge of careless.

[conix67]

Come on.. we all know that with perfect visibility and no traffic, there is absolutely no difference between a “complete stop” and slowing to 5kmh and then continuing. Stop pretending like you never do it. Cops should concentrate on really dangerous offences. How often do you see cars flying 160-170kmh on 407 with no police in sight? How often you see 4-5 cars turning left and steeling the traffic light ages after yellow has become red? How many times do you see people cut you? But those offences are hard to catch. So the cops concentrate on the easy ones. And then people hire the ticket fighters who pay the corrupted cops not to come to the court. A perfect system..

By your argument it's perfectly safe to run red lights if there are no cars at an intersection from any direction. I'm sure it probably won't cause any harm, but law is law.

I find drivers lack of common sense and driving skills more dangerous than those speeding on highways.

Those offences you mentioned, I do see them caught by police of course. Just because you haven't seen any doesn't mean they don't occur.

[conix67]

Fair? Okay, lets talk about fair.

When I came to Canada 9 years ago with 18 years of driving experience, I was required to pay $5,000 premium for a 2 years old Chevy. Does it sound fair to you? Does 18 years of driving experience mean nothing only because it is outside Canada or is it just an excuse to charge you crazy rates?

My agent told me that with two tickets my rates will go up 10%. It doesn't matter which tickets. If I forget to renew my sticker, does it make me riskier driver or is it just an excuse?

What is "frequent base"? Two tickets in 3 years is too frequent? I had 4 tickets in 9 years but no single accident or claim - am I too risky or it is just an excuse? I'm a very carefull driver. I always stop at stop sign but not for three seconds - does it make me a risky driver? Do you stop for full three seconds?

If the insurance companies did distinguish between different types of offences to rate risky drivers, I would agree that there is some degree of fairness in this system. Otherwise..

As for "voice your concerns" - are you really that naive? The insurance companies are too strong, there is too much money involved for everyone - the companies, the government, the police, the ticket fighters etc. Do you really believe that small people like us can change things?

It depends on the situation - Ontario government and insurance companies do recognize your driving experience and past insurance records from many countries.

If you forget to renew your sticker, it shows your ignorance. There's no one but yourself to blame for such thing.

4 tickets in 9 years is a lot. If the 4 tickets happen to be 4 convictions, your insurance rates will be pretty high by now.

If you don't like the insurance system here, don't drive. There are many people living in GTA and surrounding area without cars.

[vero95]

^^^ troll

[bcbgboy13]

I did manage to get that ticket reduced to $85 with no demerit points, but of course it did affect my rates.

I think the biggest issue in Ontario is the holier-than-thou attitude Ontarians have about the law and their complete denial about the ludicrous view the government has in regards to citizens.


Another holier-than-thou post ;)

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/peel-region-ticket-blitz-1014441/#post12566433

[ak1004]

It depends on the situation - Ontario government and insurance companies do recognize your driving experience and past insurance records from many countries.

If you forget to renew your sticker, it shows your ignorance. There's no one but yourself to blame for such thing.

4 tickets in 9 years is a lot. If the 4 tickets happen to be 4 convictions, your insurance rates will be pretty high by now.

If you don't like the insurance system here, don't drive. There are many people living in GTA and surrounding area without cars.

The government does recognize the driving experience (for good reason) but most insurance companies don’t. Does it make sense that 18 years old will pay same premium as 38 years old with 18 years of experience outside Canada? The laws are slightly different, this is why it is completely acceptable to be required to pass a driving test, but once you have Ontario Driving license, your out of the country experience should count.

If I forget to renew my sticker, it might make me ignorant (not sure what’s the connection) but how does it make me riskier driver??

With cops on every corner, 4 tickets in 9 years (including one for expired sticker) is really not much. Do you always stop for full three seconds on stop sign? And no, I don’t have 4 convictions. After first ticket I went to court, saw how this corrupted system works and hired someone to dismiss the next three tickets. The fact is that in my 27 years of driving I had only one minor accident 25 years ago. It does prove that I’m very low risk for the insurance companies.

“If you don't like the insurance system here, don't drive” – how simple! Why didn’t I think about it? According to this logic, if you don’t like the high income taxes (among the highest in the world), don’t work. If you don’t like waiting 12 months for a specialist, don’t get checked. Now you can see what hi-tech was talking about. The government might spit on you but you will say it’s raining.

[longitude]

The government does recognize the driving experience (for good reason) but most insurance companies don’t. Does it make sense that 18 years old will pay same premium as 38 years old with 18 years of experience outside Canada? The laws are slightly different, this is why it is completely acceptable to be required to pass a driving test, but once you have Ontario Driving license, your out of the country experience should count.

If I forget to renew my sticker, it might make me ignorant (not sure what’s the connection) but how does it make me riskier driver??

With cops on every corner, 4 tickets in 9 years (including one for expired sticker) is really not much. Do you always stop for full three seconds on stop sign? And no, I don’t have 4 convictions. After first ticket I went to court, saw how this corrupted system works and hired someone to dismiss the next three tickets. The fact is that in my 27 years of driving I had only one minor accident 25 years ago. It does prove that I’m very low risk for the insurance companies.

“If you don't like the insurance system here, don't drive” – how simple! Why didn’t I think about it? According to this logic, if you don’t like the high income taxes (among the highest in the world), don’t work. If you don’t like waiting 12 months for a specialist, don’t get checked. Now you can see what hi-tech was talking about. The government might spit on you but you will say it’s raining.

Very well said. +1.

[conix67]

The government does recognize the driving experience (for good reason) but most insurance companies don’t. Does it make sense that 18 years old will pay same premium as 38 years old with 18 years of experience outside Canada? The laws are slightly different, this is why it is completely acceptable to be required to pass a driving test, but once you have Ontario Driving license, your out of the country experience should count.

If I forget to renew my sticker, it might make me ignorant (not sure what’s the connection) but how does it make me riskier driver??

With cops on every corner, 4 tickets in 9 years (including one for expired sticker) is really not much. Do you always stop for full three seconds on stop sign? And no, I don’t have 4 convictions. After first ticket I went to court, saw how this corrupted system works and hired someone to dismiss the next three tickets. The fact is that in my 27 years of driving I had only one minor accident 25 years ago. It does prove that I’m very low risk for the insurance companies.

“If you don't like the insurance system here, don't drive” – how simple! Why didn’t I think about it? According to this logic, if you don’t like the high income taxes (among the highest in the world), don’t work. If you don’t like waiting 12 months for a specialist, don’t get checked. Now you can see what hi-tech was talking about. The government might spit on you but you will say it’s raining.

I doubt you get insurance premium equivalent to 18 year old. On an even ground, 38 year old will still get lower premium.

Ignorant on little things like renewing a sticker usually can be associated with ignoring subjectively "little law" like stopping on red lights on right turn as OP says. Not sure how much riskier such drivers would be but just don't give insurance companies anything they can take advantage of, that's in your hand.

Cops on every corner? I don't see cops all that much. If you still believe 4 tickets in 9 years is an average count, where do you get the "reference" count from?

If you don't like income taxes, and other taxes, consider moving to other places where it doesn't bother you. Of course I believe income taxes here are ridiculous, but I chose to stay here.

Other than them not recognizing your past driving records, do you have general concerns about things being "fair"? Is the system unfair that makes other people receive less number of traffic tickets?

[ak1004]

I doubt you get insurance premium equivalent to 18 year old. On an even ground, 38 year old will still get lower premium.

Ignorant on little things like renewing a sticker usually can be associated with ignoring subjectively "little law" like stopping on red lights on right turn as OP says. Not sure how much riskier such drivers would be but just don't give insurance companies anything they can take advantage of, that's in your hand.

Cops on every corner? I don't see cops all that much. If you still believe 4 tickets in 9 years is an average count, where do you get the "reference" count from?

If you don't like income taxes, and other taxes, consider moving to other places where it doesn't bother you. Of course I believe income taxes here are ridiculous, but I chose to stay here.

Other than them not recognizing your past driving records, do you have general concerns about things being "fair"? Is the system unfair that makes other people receive less number of traffic tickets?

Like I mentioned, I paid more than $5,000 premium for a 2 years old Chevy when I just came to Canada. I think this is outrageous rate for a 38 old driver with 18 years of driving experience no matter how you look at it.

Yes, I think that getting a ticket every 2.5-3 years is pretty normal. Speaking to many my friends and colleagues at work confirm this. Just look at all the police traps at safest places. Does driving 65 in 50 zone on Steeles (3 lines every direction) makes me dangerous driver? I don’t think so. 90% of drivers do it. It is just a way for police to raise some funds and excuse for insurance companies to increase rates. I’m really surprised that some people still justify this corrupted system.

As for other things that are unfair, the list is too long. Just a small example: I came to Canada with over 10 years of experience in Software Development, but first question I was asked on my interviews was if I have a Canadian experience. Would you claim that software development is also different in other countries and I should be treated as fresh university graduate?

[conix67]

Like I mentioned, I paid more than $5,000 premium for a 2 years old Chevy when I just came to Canada. I think this is outrageous rate for a 38 old driver with 18 years of driving experience no matter how you look at it.


I'm sure you can reduce that premium by getting driving school certificate in Canada. Of course, $5000 premium is pretty high, but just like in many countries there's little they do about past history in foreign countries. It is unfortunate but it's not just you, everyone migrating over runs into similar problem.


Yes, I think that getting a ticket every 2.5-3 years is pretty normal. Speaking to many my friends and colleagues at work confirm this. Just look at all the police traps at safest places. Does driving 65 in 50 zone on Steeles (3 lines every direction) makes me dangerous driver? I don’t think so. 90% of drivers do it. It is just a way for police to raise some funds and excuse for insurance companies to increase rates. I’m really surprised that some people still justify this corrupted system.


I don't think that's normal. Most of my colleagues have little or no traffic tickets, on an average about 1 ticket per 5 years at the most. We talk about this often. On the other hand, I have friends who are getting several tickets over that period, and these guys are not aggressive drivers either. They are usually ignorant and don't pay attention to road signs well.

Again, this is in your hands, especially if you're getting trapped. Just drive within reasonable limits and you won't get tickets.



As for other things that are unfair, the list is too long. Just a small example: I came to Canada with over 10 years of experience in Software Development, but first question I was asked on my interviews was if I have a Canadian experience. Would you claim that software development is also different in other countries and I should be treated as fresh university graduate?

To tell you the truth, we have hired many engineers and software developers with various backgrounds. Our employer prefers Canadian graduates, even if they are immigrants. I met a lot of experienced and very intelligent people from foreign countries in various companies. However, when working with them directly isn't always easy. It could be cultural difference, communication problems, or things that are just different. Those with Canadian experiences do have edge in this regard, and for an employer this is an important aspect.

So technical skill isn't everything, although very important.

[NuclearBlast]

Yes, it seems completely fair that previous driving experience does not count when you move to Canada. Driving in Canada is different than driving in other countries, and as such, the experience from driving in Germany (for instance) will be completely different than driving in Canada.Bull$hite. Streets are often narrower in Germany and 95% of cars are manual. Let's see how many people that are born in Canada are better driving a manual on a narrower streets in Germany versus automatic on wide streets in Canada. Driving for 18 years ANYWHERE in the world means a better driver than a brand new 17-year-old driver in Canada yet he got charged exactly a 17-year-old driver rates.

[ak1004]

Bull$hite. Streets are often narrower in Germany and 95% of cars are manual. Let's see how many people that are born in Canada are better driving a manual on a narrower streets in Germany versus automatic on wide streets in Canada. Driving for 18 years ANYWHERE in the world means a better driver than a brand new 17-year-old driver in Canada yet he got charged exactly a 17-year-old driver rates.
Exactly my point. I'm glad that some people recognize how absurd and unfair this system is.

[ak1004]

I'm sure you can reduce that premium by getting driving school certificate in Canada. Of course, $5000 premium is pretty high, but just like in many countries there's little they do about past history in foreign countries. It is unfortunate but it's not just you, everyone migrating over runs into similar problem.

I didn't say it is personal against me, it's the system that is designed to get more money with no relation to the riskness of the driver. Luck of Canadian experience is just an excuse.



To tell you the truth, we have hired many engineers and software developers with various backgrounds. Our employer prefers Canadian graduates, even if they are immigrants. I met a lot of experienced and very intelligent people from foreign countries in various companies. However, when working with them directly isn't always easy. It could be cultural difference, communication problems, or things that are just different. Those with Canadian experiences do have edge in this regard, and for an employer this is an important aspect.

So technical skill isn't everything, although very important.
Well, who is ignorant and arrogant now?

Communication problems you can usually see during the interview.

The problem with many Canadians is their arrogance. Let me tell you a small secret – there is life outside Canada. In many cases, very good one. Many immigrants are excellent drivers, engineers and doctors.

I also interview people now from time to time. I look at their professional skills, communication skills and overall attitude. I never ask which country they worked. It is irrelevant. When first condition of an employer is Canadian experience, there is something very wrong with this employer. For your information, it is also illegal. But I guess you care about the law only when it is convenient to you..

[TrevorK]

Bull$hite. Streets are often narrower in Germany and 95% of cars are manual. Let's see how many people that are born in Canada are better driving a manual on a narrower streets in Germany versus automatic on wide streets in Canada. Driving for 18 years ANYWHERE in the world means a better driver than a brand new 17-year-old driver in Canada yet he got charged exactly a 17-year-old driver rates.

So what you are saying is that driving in Canada is different than other countries then. Thank you for supporting my statement.

[TrevorK]

I didn't say it is personal against me, it's the system that is designed to get more money with no relation to the riskness of the driver. Luck of Canadian experience is just an excuse.

You are ignoring the statistics used to make up the rates. If insurance companies were out to "screw everyone" and not base their rates on "riskness of the driver" then they wouldn't be dropping the rates when you have ticket-free/claims-free experience would they?

You need to realize that insurance is based on risk, and rightfully so. The insurance company needs to define parameters for risk, and they apply to all drivers. It's not realistic for them to have a 1-on-1 interview of drivers, to have a "driving appraiser" drive with you to assess your abilities, etc... They need to rely on criteria - driving experience, location of residence, use of vehicle, type of vehicle, tickets, accidents, etc... You cannot realistically expect an insurance company to give everyone the same rate, raising the rates of "good" drivers to pay for the ones that have more claims.

Further you need to research the insurance companies and the profits they make because you will find the percentage of profit they make on automobile premiums is very small. The larger amount of money they make is on investing your premiums (if you had an accident every 10 years that was worth your premium throughout that period they have obviously made money off investing your premium so they come out on top).

I would highly recommend doing a little research into the insurance industry rather than just making wild assumptions.

[longitude]

... then they wouldn't be dropping the rates when you have ticket-free/claims-free experience would they?



And they wouldn't. Rates have been increasing consistently over the years for drivers without any claims, accidents or tickets.. They won't give us a break.

[TrevorK]

And they wouldn't. Rates have been increasing consistently over the years for drivers without any claims, accidents or tickets.. They won't give us a break.

My insurance doesn't go up - it goes down (the part that isn't regulated by the government).

Further, in Ontario rates dropped an average of 1% according to this article (which also states they went up 3 years in a row):
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100715/auto-insurance-100715/20100715?hub=TorontoNewHome


Therefore, I don't think your statement of them never going down is baseless.

[akira1971]

Driving for 18 years ANYWHERE in the world means a better driver than a brand new 17-year-old driver in Canada yet he got charged exactly a 17-year-old driver rates.

Really, you think someone with 18 yrs of driving experience in Mexico, Spain or India has any idea how to drive in our winter snow conditions?!?

[vero95]

You are ignoring the statistics used to make up the rates. If insurance companies were out to "screw everyone" and not base their rates on "riskness of the driver" then they wouldn't be dropping the rates when you have ticket-free/claims-free experience would they?

You need to realize that insurance is based on risk, and rightfully so. The insurance company needs to define parameters for risk, and they apply to all drivers. It's not realistic for them to have a 1-on-1 interview of drivers, to have a "driving appraiser" drive with you to assess your abilities, etc... They need to rely on criteria - driving experience, location of residence, use of vehicle, type of vehicle, tickets, accidents, etc... You cannot realistically expect an insurance company to give everyone the same rate, raising the rates of "good" drivers to pay for the ones that have more claims.

Further you need to research the insurance companies and the profits they make because you will find the percentage of profit they make on automobile premiums is very small. The larger amount of money they make is on investing your premiums (if you had an accident every 10 years that was worth your premium throughout that period they have obviously made money off investing your premium so they come out on top).

I would highly recommend doing a little research into the insurance industry rather than just making wild assumptions.

insurance companies are here not to create a fair system but for profit. they increase rates not to reward those who have no tickets but to maximize the profit. otherwise they would not try to use any data to increase your premium (example: creadit rating in the past)
I recommend you stop posting about things you have no clue about

[vero95]

My insurance doesn't go up - it goes down (the part that isn't regulated by the government).

Further, in Ontario rates dropped an average of 1% according to this article (which also states they went up 3 years in a row):
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100715/auto-insurance-100715/20100715?hub=TorontoNewHome


Therefore, I don't think your statement of them never going down is baseless.

TrevorK, the world is totally different than as you see it through your window in your little house on the prairie

[ak1004]

You are ignoring the statistics used to make up the rates. If insurance companies were out to "screw everyone" and not base their rates on "riskness of the driver" then they wouldn't be dropping the rates when you have ticket-free/claims-free experience would they?

You need to realize that insurance is based on risk, and rightfully so. The insurance company needs to define parameters for risk, and they apply to all drivers. It's not realistic for them to have a 1-on-1 interview of drivers, to have a "driving appraiser" drive with you to assess your abilities, etc... They need to rely on criteria - driving experience, location of residence, use of vehicle, type of vehicle, tickets, accidents, etc... You cannot realistically expect an insurance company to give everyone the same rate, raising the rates of "good" drivers to pay for the ones that have more claims.

Further you need to research the insurance companies and the profits they make because you will find the percentage of profit they make on automobile premiums is very small. The larger amount of money they make is on investing your premiums (if you had an accident every 10 years that was worth your premium throughout that period they have obviously made money off investing your premium so they come out on top).

I would highly recommend doing a little research into the insurance industry rather than just making wild assumptions.

I think you missed my point.

I definitely don’t expect insurance companies to give the same rate to everyone. More fair system will consider the following points:

1. Recognize drivers’ experience outside Canada. I can accept some kind of partial recognition (for example, consider every 2 years as one year in Canada or some other reasonable formula) but completely ignoring this experience is absurd. You have to agree that 5k+ for a 38 driver is outrageous.

2. Distinguish between really dangerous offences like red light, stop signs, careless driving and meaningless ones like sticker renewal etc. After three tickets, your rates might go up 50% even if you didn’t have one single claim in 10 years. This is not a true measure of risk.

3. Give much more weight to at-fault accidents. Today many companies will increase the rates even after no-fault accident. Accidents are much better measure of risk than traffic tickets.

4. Accidents happen. It doesn’t make sense that someone paid 10 years of premiums and after one single accident, he is afraid to make a claim because his rates might almost double.

With the current system, it just seems that insurance companies are monopoly and do whatever they want, with backup from the government. At least this is the case in Ontario. Most of Ontario residents feel this way.

[TrevorK]

Does driving 65 in 50 zone on Steeles (3 lines every direction) makes me dangerous driver? I don’t think so.

Let's put it in perspective.

Does willingly breaking the traffic laws on a routine basis make you a dangerous driver?

I think it is a factor in determining whether you are a dangerous driver. It's not a sole determining factor, however it does contribute to being a dangerous driver.

[TrevorK]

insurance companies are here not to create a fair system but for profit. they increase rates not to reward those who have no tickets but to maximize the profit. otherwise they would not try to use any data to increase your premium (example: creadit rating in the past)
I recommend you stop posting about things you have no clue about

In order the maximize their profit they need to be competitive, and if other companies are offering lower rates they then need to lower theirs to remain competitive.

It's a fairly simple concept, I'm not sure why you're having trouble with it?

[falen55]

Really, you think someone with 18 yrs of driving experience in Mexico, Spain or India has any idea how to drive in our winter snow conditions?!?

Um, well compared to a 17 year old who just started driving... yea...

[vero95]

In order the maximize their profit they need to be competitive, and if other companies are offering lower rates they then need to lower theirs to remain competitive.

It's a fairly simple concept, I'm not sure why you're having trouble with it?

that would be an explanation why the rates are going down
but in reality they are going in the opposite direction. your simple concept fails :lol:

[falen55]

that would be an explanation why the rates are going down
but in reality they are going in the opposite direction. your simple concept fails :lol:

Seriously, my rates as well as those of my parents have been steadily going up every year, and none of us have ever been in an accident, had speeding tickets, or any claims...

[TrevorK]

1. Recognize drivers’ experience outside Canada. I can accept some kind of partial recognition (for example, consider every 2 years as one year in Canada or some other reasonable formula) but completely ignoring this experience is absurd. You have to agree that 5k+ for a 38 driver is outrageous.

Again, $5000 for liability AND collision for a driver with no experience in Canada is not unreasonable. Further, you can then choose a lower priced car, drop the collision, and save half of that. Then, get yourself a nicer vehicle in a couple years as your rates are lower. If you were paying $5000 for just liability, I agree it's absurd (but mentioning it is a 2 year old car leads me to believe it had full coverage)

There is no blanket system to recognize previous experience that is fair to both sides (insurer and insuree). Do they credit experience in England? What about Iraq? Somalia? Germany? These countries all face different driving conditions and have different licensing requirements. It's not fair that someone from Somalia has their experience counted on par as someone from Germany. Therefore, they don't count it.

Is it unfortunate? Yeah. It sucks. But is there a better method fair to both sides? Outside of listing "valid" countries for experience I don't see one (as is that even fair?). Do you?



2. Distinguish between really dangerous offences like red light, stop signs, careless driving and meaningless ones like sticker renewal etc. After three tickets, your rates might go up 50% even if you didn’t have one single claim in 10 years. This is not a true measure of risk.

I think you are being given incorrect information. Registered owner's tickets do not count towards your insurance, such as photo-based red-light tickets:
http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/onthemove/driving/road_safety/motorists/red_light_cameras_en.html
Who receives the ticket for running a red light? What is the fine?

No matter who was driving the vehicle at the time of the photograph, the registered owner of the photographed vehicle receives the ticket. The owner's insurance company will not be notified of the violation.


3. Give much more weight to at-fault accidents. Today many companies will increase the rates even after no-fault accident. Accidents are much better measure of risk than traffic tickets.

I do not believe an insurance company will raise your rate for a not-at-fault accident. You may lose certain deductions you were given ("Accident free", etc...) but your rate does not go up.

I do agree that at fault accidents should be a good indicator that someone is a poor driver, and a consistent history of them should lead to significantly higher rates.


4. Accidents happen. It doesn’t make sense that someone paid 10 years of premiums and after one single accident, he is afraid to make a claim because his rates might almost double.

I think a lot of this is scare-mongering on the part of people. There have been many posts on the forum from people who had their rates rise slightly (25% or less) in case of an at fault accident. In addition, the rates do go down every year after that.


I'm not saying car insurance is perfect. But I think it's far from a flawed system. The number of claims is rising, the amount of each claim is rising, it only makes sense that we all (good and bad) will have our insurance rates rise as well. Body shops raise their rates, mechanics raise their rates, health care providers raise their rates. All these increases directly affect the amount a claim has to pay out.

[TrevorK]

that would be an explanation why the rates are going down
but in reality they are going in the opposite direction. your simple concept fails :lol:

The rates went down, on average, 1%, in late 2010. This is the reality.

Will everyone receive a 1% discount? No, that's why it's called an average.

I'm still unsure how this baffles you?

[vero95]

The rates went down, on average, 1%, in late 2010. This is the reality.

Will everyone receive a 1% discount? No, that's why it's called an average.

I'm still unsure how this baffles you?

oh, they went down? :-0
they predicted lower rates because people would opt for lower coverage
dude, you made me laugh :lol:

[akira1971]

Yes, I think that getting a ticket every 2.5-3 years is pretty normal. Speaking to many my friends and colleagues at work confirm this. Just look at all the police traps at safest places. Does driving 65 in 50 zone on Steeles (3 lines every direction) makes me dangerous driver? I don’t think so. 90% of drivers do it. It is just a way for police to raise some funds and excuse for insurance companies to increase rates. I’m really surprised that some people still justify this corrupted system.

4 tickets in 9 years is NOT normal. Driving 30% over the speed limit is excessive and NOT normal and should be targeted by the police. Having multiple scratches/dings on all four corners of a 3-yr-old car is NOT normal. In fact, these are signs of a bad driver and should deserve a higher insurance rate.


I didn't say it is personal against me, it's the system that is designed to get more money with no relation to the riskness of the driver. Luck of Canadian experience is just an excuse.

The problem with many Canadians is their arrogance. Let me tell you a small secret – there is life outside Canada. In many cases, very good one. Many immigrants are excellent drivers, engineers and doctors.

Let me tell you a small secret - excellent immigrant drivers from warm climate countries does not equal excellent Canadian drivers in our nasty winter conditions. The arrogance is those that believe they're great drivers everywhere they go and feel entitled to the low insurance rates that I've earned over the years with a clean driving record in Canada.


I also interview people now from time to time. I look at their professional skills, communication skills and overall attitude. I never ask which country they worked. It is irrelevant. When first condition of an employer is Canadian experience, there is something very wrong with this employer. For your information, it is also illegal. But I guess you care about the law only when it is convenient to you..

Um, it's not illegal to ask about Canadian experience. From a Gov't Of Canada website (http://www.workingincanada.gc.ca/content_pieces-eng.do?cid=221):

Experience in a Canadian workplace may be a requirement or an employer preference, in both regulated and non-regulated occupations. They even suggest doing volunteer work to gain valuable "Canadian work experience" to understand workplace culture, practice English/French, and getting Canadian references.

[conix67]

I didn't say it is personal against me, it's the system that is designed to get more money with no relation to the riskness of the driver. Luck of Canadian experience is just an excuse.


Well, who is ignorant and arrogant now?

Communication problems you can usually see during the interview.

The problem with many Canadians is their arrogance. Let me tell you a small secret – there is life outside Canada. In many cases, very good one. Many immigrants are excellent drivers, engineers and doctors.

I also interview people now from time to time. I look at their professional skills, communication skills and overall attitude. I never ask which country they worked. It is irrelevant. When first condition of an employer is Canadian experience, there is something very wrong with this employer. For your information, it is also illegal. But I guess you care about the law only when it is convenient to you..

I think you have these mixed up. Employers *prefer* candidates having Canadian experience. When you have multiple candidates, it's all up to you to decide who's best for the job being offered. Even though in engineering or software development field communication isn't as important as some other jobs, it is still important and it doesn't mean language skills only.

I myself is an immigrant, and most people in our company are immigrants. However, it doesn't change the fact that employers do prefer candidates with Canadian experiences or education.

[longitude]

Therefore, I don't think your statement of them never going down is baseless.

I agree with you. I don't think it's baseless either... :D

[falen55]

Let me tell you a small secret - excellent immigrant drivers from warm climate countries does not equal excellent Canadian drivers in our nasty winter conditions. The arrogance is those that believe they're great drivers everywhere they go and feel entitled to the low insurance rates that I've earned over the years with a clean driving record in Canada.

Excellent immigrant drivers might not make excellent Canadian winter drivers but they sure as hell beat 17 year olds who don't have any experience driving at all. So how can you justify charging the same premium for a 17 year old with absolutely NO experience driving and a person who has experience driving in all climates except for the winter season?

[NuclearBlast]

Again, $5000 for liability AND collision for a driver with no experience in Canada is not unreasonable. Further, you can then choose a lower priced car, drop the collision, and save half of that. Then, get yourself a nicer vehicle in a couple years as your rates are lower. If you were paying $5000 for just liability, I agree it's absurd (but mentioning it is a 2 year old car leads me to believe it had full coverage)Dropping collision in Ontario (GTA specifically) won't save you half, unless you were insuring a Ferrari or something like that. About 20% savings at most, he mentioned it was a Chevy so not even that much. Don't believe me - play some scenarios on kanetix.com with and without collision for a GTA address.

[NuclearBlast]

Let me tell you a small secret - excellent immigrant drivers from warm climate countries does not equal excellent Canadian drivers in our nasty winter conditions. The arrogance is those that believe they're great drivers everywhere they go and feel entitled to the low insurance rates that I've earned over the years with a clean driving record in Canada.So, using your simplistic logic immigrants from Northern Europe (scandinavian countries) and Siberia should get even better rates than equivalent canadian drivers, because they drive 6-8 months in even worse winter conditions? But do they really get a discount or even same rates?

[akira1971]

So, using your simplistic logic immigrants from Northern Europe (scandinavian countries) and Siberia should get even better rates than equivalent canadian drivers, because they drive 6-8 months in even worse winter conditions? But do they really get a discount or even same rates?

No, the point is that Canadian insurance companies cannot accurately assess all the external risk factors to new immigrant drivers (old country's road conditions & environment, driving laws, getting detailed driver's abstracts, previous traffic tickets or accident claims, etc.) As far as it goes, these drivers are just as risky as a new Canadian driver facing our roads and conditions. Heck, 18 years of driving experience also means they could have had 18 years of bad (but maybe acceptable in the old country) driving habits ingrained. Two Asian countries I've visited were a road nightmare - basically, drivers made their own lanes when they felt like it, no road discipline and pedestrians had to dive out of the way. Yeah, I want that all the time here.

Until they can demonstrate that they are not endangering others through a few years of actual Canadian driving, their insurance premium should be high. Rates will decline with a clean record - no way do I want to be subsidizing these new drivers on Canadian roads.

[ak1004]

No, the point is that Canadian insurance companies cannot accurately assess all the external risk factors to new immigrant drivers (old country's road conditions & environment, driving laws, getting detailed driver's abstracts, previous traffic tickets or accident claims, etc.) As far as it goes, these drivers are just as risky as a new Canadian driver facing our roads and conditions. Heck, 18 years of driving experience also means they could have had 18 years of bad (but maybe acceptable in the old country) driving habits ingrained. Two Asian countries I've visited were a road nightmare - basically, drivers made their own lanes when they felt like it, no road discipline and pedestrians had to dive out of the way. Yeah, I want that all the time here.

Until they can demonstrate that they are not endangering others through a few years of actual Canadian driving, their insurance premium should be high. Rates will decline with a clean record - no way do I want to be subsidizing these new drivers on Canadian roads.

They can't or they don't want?

I guess next step would be putting all immigrants in jail until they can prove they were not criminals in their previous countries. Or maybe take all the money they bring to Canada - let them prove first they didn't steal it.

[hi-tech]

Why would any actually support ridiculous insurance prices??

It's not the consumer's fault insurance companies aren't going after fraud cases or whatever ridiculous excuse insurance companies are coming up with these days to justify the ridiculous rates here in the GTA....part of what a business is supposed to do is shed excess expenses.

There is no reason the GTA should have higher insurance rates than New York or L.A or Houston or Chicago! Houston is known as the short stop capital of the world ffs...

On top of that, the GTA always boasts;

-The worst commute times in North America
-The most expensive public transit system in North America
-The most expensive cab fares

So people can either drive around scared of being ticketed in the worst traffic in North America, or try to get somewhere on time and endure the some of the highest insurance rates in the world...

Please corporate overlords, charge us more! The GTA loves to overpay for everything and we don't seem mind one bit.

[vero95]

Why would any actually support ridiculous insurance prices??

It's not the consumer's fault insurance companies aren't going after fraud cases or whatever ridiculous excuse insurance companies are coming up with these days to justify the ridiculous rates here in the GTA....part of what a business is supposed to do is shed excess expenses.

There is no reason the GTA should have higher insurance rates than New York or L.A or Houston or Chicago! Houston is known as the short stop capital of the world ffs...

On top of that, the GTA always boasts;

-The worst commute times in North America
-The most expensive public transit system in North America
-The most expensive cab fares

So people can either drive around scared of being ticketed in the worst traffic in North America, or try to get somewhere on time and endure the some of the highest insurance rates in the world...

Please corporate overlords, charge us more! The GTA loves to overpay for everything and we don't seem mind one bit.

also it's a speeding trap capital of the world
after saying all that they hope Toronto to be the best city to live in :lol:

[vero95]

They can't or they don't want?

I guess next step would be putting all immigrants in jail until they can prove they were not criminals in their previous countries. Or maybe take all the money they bring to Canada - let them prove first they didn't steal it.


as others said driving "experience" in some countries does not really count (have you been to India for example?) so it would not be fair to treat all the same. not to mention possible fraud. how would you verify driving experience from a country Canada does not even have a good relationship with?

[conix67]

also it's a speeding trap capital of the world
after saying all that they hope Toronto to be the best city to live in :lol:

I hardly think Toronto's the speeding trap capital. Have you travelled around? I've seen cities in Asia that have speed trap cameras every few kms in all highways and local roads, HOV lane cameras every few hundred meters , literally you don't want to speed over posted speed limits anywhere (there's no tolerance) or have very good navigation system which warns you of these every time (gets pretty annoying, since it continuously tells you about these cameras).

[vero95]

I hardly think Toronto's the speeding trap capital. Have you travelled around? I've seen cities in Asia that have speed trap cameras every few kms in all highways and local roads, HOV lane cameras every few hundred meters , literally you don't want to speed over posted speed limits anywhere (there's no tolerance) or have very good navigation system which warns you of these every time (gets pretty annoying, since it continuously tells you about these cameras).

a speeding trap capital of North America. NA=world if you have not lived in NA long enough to know that

[ak1004]

Why would any actually support ridiculous insurance prices??

It's not the consumer's fault insurance companies aren't going after fraud cases or whatever ridiculous excuse insurance companies are coming up with these days to justify the ridiculous rates here in the GTA....part of what a business is supposed to do is shed excess expenses.

There is no reason the GTA should have higher insurance rates than New York or L.A or Houston or Chicago! Houston is known as the short stop capital of the world ffs...

On top of that, the GTA always boasts;

-The worst commute times in North America
-The most expensive public transit system in North America
-The most expensive cab fares

So people can either drive around scared of being ticketed in the worst traffic in North America, or try to get somewhere on time and endure the some of the highest insurance rates in the world...

Please corporate overlords, charge us more! The GTA loves to overpay for everything and we don't seem mind one bit.
Very well said.

Well, in many cases you have a choice. When I first needed a taxi to the airport, I was shocked to find out that most companies charge $50-60 for a 20 minutes ride. And most people will gladly pay it. But with some little effort, I found a company that charges $30. And I’m sure they are making profit as well.

Some people are just happy to pay more, they think it is normal. When I’m asked to pay by Rogers/Bell $200 for TV service that costs half in the states, I say thank you and install a satellite dish. When I’m robbed by the insurance companies, I find ways to get every cent back from them..

[TrevorK]

oh, they went down? :-0
they predicted lower rates because people would opt for lower coverage
dude, you made me laugh :lol:
http://news.ontario.ca/mof/en/2010/10/auto-insurance-rates-stabilizing-in-ontario.html
* Average auto insurance rates decreased by a little more than one per cent, on average, in the second quarter of 2010.
* Under the McGuinty government, auto insurance rates are up less than five per cent since 2003. This is lower than the inflation rate for the same period of 12.5 per cent.


Keep living in the clouds!


Oh - and if you have a problem with this information here is the phone number to call to get clarification:
For public inquiries call
1-800-337-7222
(Toll-free in Ontario only)
You can argue with them that your car insurance never goes down and that you feel ripped off.

[ak1004]

http://news.ontario.ca/mof/en/2010/10/auto-insurance-rates-stabilizing-in-ontario.html
* Average auto insurance rates decreased by a little more than one per cent, on average, in the second quarter of 2010.
* Under the McGuinty government, auto insurance rates are up less than five per cent since 2003. This is lower than the inflation rate for the same period of 12.5 per cent.


Keep living in the clouds!


Oh - and if you have a problem with this information here is the phone number to call to get clarification:
For public inquiries call
1-800-337-7222
(Toll-free in Ontario only)
You can argue with them that your car insurance never goes down and that you feel ripped off.

My rates for 2 cars insurance (including a discount for insuring my house with the same company):

2008 – 3,364
2009 – 3,474
2010 – 3,588
2011 – 4,255

Same insurance company, no claims, no tickets. Of course after getting this insane quote for 2011, I switched companies, but the cheapest I could find was 3,610, still higher than in 2010. And I don’t drive a Ferrari, just two average cars.

Do you really that naïve to believe this government propaganda about rates decrease? I don’t know one single man that had their rates decreased in the last 3-5 years. I’m wondering who lives in the clouds..

[longitude]

Same insurance company, no claims, no tickets. Of course after getting this insane quote for 2011, I switched companies, but the cheapest I could find was 3,610, still higher than in 2010. And I don’t drive a Ferrari, just two average cars.

Do you really that naïve to believe this government propaganda about rates decrease? I don’t know one single man that had their rates decreased in the last 3-5 years. I’m wondering who lives in the clouds..

Insurance is a scam.

They're gouging us.

[conix67]

a speeding trap capital of North America. NA=world if you have not lived in NA long enough to know that

NA=world??

[DJ Dennis]

http://news.ontario.ca/mof/en/2010/10/auto-insurance-rates-stabilizing-in-ontario.html
* Average auto insurance rates decreased by a little more than one per cent, on average, in the second quarter of 2010.
* Under the McGuinty government, auto insurance rates are up less than five per cent since 2003. This is lower than the inflation rate for the same period of 12.5 per cent.


Keep living in the clouds!


Oh - and if you have a problem with this information here is the phone number to call to get clarification:
For public inquiries call
1-800-337-7222
(Toll-free in Ontario only)
You can argue with them that your car insurance never goes down and that you feel ripped off.

So in the short term they're down 1% but in the long term they're up 5%. :facepalm:

And those 'auto insurance reforms' simply let drivers choose less options on their coverage, it doesn't make their pre-existing coverage cheaper.

[vero95]

NA=world??

yes

[vero95]

http://news.ontario.ca/mof/en/2010/10/auto-insurance-rates-stabilizing-in-ontario.html
* Average auto insurance rates decreased by a little more than one per cent, on average, in the second quarter of 2010.
* Under the McGuinty government, auto insurance rates are up less than five per cent since 2003. This is lower than the inflation rate for the same period of 12.5 per cent.


Keep living in the clouds!


Oh - and if you have a problem with this information here is the phone number to call to get clarification:
For public inquiries call
1-800-337-7222
(Toll-free in Ontario only)
You can argue with them that your car insurance never goes down and that you feel ripped off.

dude, I told you stop trolling
last reform was about increasing rates and lowering the coverage. read your own article that you provided but it looks to me that you can't understand what you post

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100715/auto-insurance-100715/20100715?hub=TorontoNewHome
here they talk about about lower coverages

Those changes give consumers lower minimum coverage, and let them opt-in to higher coverage if they want it.

and here they talk about rate increases

Last year the Financial Services Commission of Ontario, which approves all auto insurance rate changes, allowed two insurance companies to increase their rates by nearly 10 per cent.

Last September, the average Ontario driver was paying $1,362.11 a year on insurance, up 3.6 per cent from the same time period in 2008, according to numbers released by the Insurance Bureau of Canada.

This April, car insurance quote firm Kanetix said rates in Ontario jumped by nearly 12 per cent in the first three months of the year.

By comparison, rates in Quebec and Alberta fell by 4.6 per cent and 1.6 per cent respectively.

[akira1971]

My rates for 2 cars insurance (including a discount for insuring my house with the same company):

2008 – 3,364
2009 – 3,474
2010 – 3,588
2011 – 4,255

Same insurance company, no claims, no tickets. Of course after getting this insane quote for 2011, I switched companies, but the cheapest I could find was 3,610, still higher than in 2010. And I don’t drive a Ferrari, just two average cars.

Do you really that naïve to believe this government propaganda about rates decrease? I don’t know one single man that had their rates decreased in the last 3-5 years. I’m wondering who lives in the clouds..

I posted this back in March (http://forums.redflagdeals.com/car-insurance-supposed-go-down-government-changes-but-went-up-wtf-1021700/#post12662979) before your little rant:


Insurance through Meloche - annual premium has gone down an average of 6% every year since 2002. My driving record is spotless, while the wife had one speeding ticket a couple of years ago. That year the premium still dropped by $45, or around 2%.

To put it in perspective, my insurance rate has dropped 42% since 2002 while inflation has gone up 18% (Bank of Canada inflation calculator (http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/rates/inflation_calc.html)). So the real decline in insurance rate was closer to 51% since 2002.

[vero95]

I posted this back in March (http://forums.redflagdeals.com/car-insurance-supposed-go-down-government-changes-but-went-up-wtf-1021700/#post12662979) before your little rant:



To put it in perspective, my insurance rate has dropped 42% since 2002 while inflation has gone up 18% (Bank of Canada inflation calculator (http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/rates/inflation_calc.html)). So the real decline in insurance rate was closer to 51% since 2002.

sounds like everyone is wrong and you are right
they should run all the stats by you if you agree with them before releasing them to the public

[conix67]

yes

Since when NA became the "world"? Where did Europe, Asia, Africa, all went? Which dictionary do you use?

[vero95]

Since when NA became the "world"? Where did Europe, Asia, Africa, all went? Which dictionary do you use?

you are talking about vacation destinations
you do not take them seriously, do you?
ask an averaga North American what's the capital of Peru and you will know how much they care about the rest of the world

[ak1004]

you are talking about vacation destinations
you do not take them seriously, do you?
ask an averaga North American what's the capital of Peru and you will know how much they care about the rest of the world

Well, that is not a big honor for an average North American.. many Americans also don’t know what is the capital of Canada or even where is Canada. You are right that most North Americans think there is no life outside North America.. so they think. There are many countries with overall quality of life way higher than in North America, but most North Americans just live in denial. If you don’t know any better, it doesn’t mean it does not exist..

[TrevorK]

Do you really that naïve to believe this government propaganda about rates decrease? I don’t know one single man that had their rates decreased in the last 3-5 years. I’m wondering who lives in the clouds..

I can't speak as to your experience in Ontario - in my province my insurance has gone down every year since I got it. All I can go in for Ontario insurance is statistics - there are always going to be some above, and some below. I'm sure if a poll was taken on RFD you'd find people who had their insurance go down at some point in the last 3-5 years.

[TheFastestOne35]

At 23 with a bad record, sounds like driver training would be the best option. If your record is already bad, best thing for you to do is keep it from getting worse (though it seems it already is.)

Also, "I'm too poor to pay for the consequences when I break the law" is generally a bad defence.

Yes taking driving school is really going to help you be a better driver. Conidering that Ontario's auditor general found that students of Ontario accredited driving schools were more than 50% more likely to be involved in an accident then drivers who never took a course. http://www.roadrules.ca/content/driver-training-good-enough


Our driving schools here are an absoulte joke! Instead of teaching people actual skills realated to driving they make students focus TOO hard on all the so called "rules of the road" (ie, stop for 3 whole seconds, never exceed the limit, two hand on the wheel at all times) that what we end up with are a bunch of worried drivers who think that being a good driver consist of always following the rules and never getting a ticket. In reality those are the drivers that end up being not only the most ANNOYING drivers on the road, but also the most DANGEROUS as they are focused on the wrong things and likely were taught not to go over the limit so they will end up creating disruptions in normal traffic flow, which is what leads to a high percentage of accidents.

I would never ever put my kids in any driving school in Canada.

[airmail]

I rolled thru a stop sign several weeks back and got a ticket, but I have noticed that the same cop parks at the same location right under a no parking sign every day. And he also did not put any location on the ticket...

Could I get off on those technicalities.
I have taken several pictures of him parked illegaly to bring to court.

[longitude]

Yes taking driving school is really going to help you be a better driver. Conidering that Ontario's auditor general found that students of Ontario accredited driving schools were more than 50% more likely to be involved in an accident then drivers who never took a course. http://www.roadrules.ca/content/driver-training-good-enough


Our driving schools here are an absoulte joke! Instead of teaching people actual skills realated to driving they make students focus TOO hard on all the so called "rules of the road" (ie, stop for 3 whole seconds, never exceed the limit, two hand on the wheel at all times) that what we end up with are a bunch of worried drivers who think that being a good driver consist of always following the rules and never getting a ticket. In reality those are the drivers that end up being not only the most ANNOYING drivers on the road, but also the most DANGEROUS as they are focused on the wrong things and likely were taught not to go over the limit so they will end up creating disruptions in normal traffic flow, which is what leads to a high percentage of accidents.

I would never ever put my kids in any driving school in Canada.

Prepare to be flamed by the righteous trolls.

[vero95]

I rolled thru a stop sign several weeks back and got a ticket, but I have noticed that the same cop parks at the same location right under a no parking sign every day. And he also did not put any location on the ticket...

Could I get off on those technicalities.
I have taken several pictures of him parked illegaly to bring to court.

no location can be a fatal error based on this site but it's Ontario. it may be different where you live
http://ticketcombat.com/offences/fatal.php
btw, the cop can park wherever he wants

[Cden6699]

I was rolling to turn right to Finch, and the red was just turned (I think) I never ran in this kind of situation before 2 flashes came on, How should I fight the ticket? Anyone please help....

time is around 23:00

[CSAgent]

I was rolling to turn right to Finch, and the red was just turned (I think) I never ran in this kind of situation before 2 flashes came on, How should I fight the ticket? Anyone please help....

time is around 23:00

Why don't you re-read the entire thread? It's all there! :facepalm:

[dreaderus]

its funny i see police turn on their lights to get through intersections and turn them off, and do uturns etc, to get into donut shops etc (well to be fair its possible they were called to the donut shop but i dont think so)

This ticket things nuts thou goes beyond even the traffic stuff. I can get a $30 ticket for parking in front of my house "unless I call in for an exception" lol!

ah well i have thoughts of working in police work type stuff so this is just one aspect that is a bit annoying. I constantly see people throwing projetiles out their cars (lit ciggeretttes, emptying ashtrays, garbage etc, talking on cellphones (all very dangerous and horrible) and don't get burned but that guy who trickles through a stop sign gets nailed to the wall :)

Cheers all its a dangerous line of work so keep that in mind major respect for the step up just a couple of sore points.