Online Trading Academy - my experience

[rfdrfd]

As I promised from the other big thread: Questrade, I registered and completed the 7-day course at Online Trading Academy. I kept my word.

Here's my experience: http://www.tradingacademy.com/


I took the 7-day "Professional Trader Course": http://www.tradingacademy.com/courses/Professional-Trader.aspx and yes, the cost is as advertised on the website. More on the cost and value later. This is a school, they teach you the skills and tools. They don’t promise you to get rich or earn 110%.

Instructor: I'll call him Mr. R. It is hard to summarize a person, but simply put, he was amazing. He's one of those quick, witty, fast, smart, nice guys that you may know of. He used to work at trading companies (more than 10), thanks to his awesome personality, smartness, he met lots of high up people, CEO's of banks, trading firms, etc. Mr. R would answer all questions, good and stupid questions. One of the students was clearly not there to listen, yet Mr. R still answered his questions (I certainly wouldn't have). Instead of writing financial formula's down on the board (eg. GDP, ATR, ...) he would DERIVE them from scratch !! OMG. Its like when I was at University, some smart kid doesn't memorize physics equations, but derives them from nothing ! Geezz....

Mr. R told us over 40 real life stories, which really drove the point to each thing he was talking about. Esp. ones where people made mistakes, his clients that had millions of $ with him at his old job. He also showed us his own personal trades, and WHY he did it, and man, he must be a millionaire by now, with his GOOG, AAPL, and BIDU trades alone. But he plays everything, currency, options, etc. He was telling us how the Japanese Yen was way too high, he's been shorting it for weeks, showed us graphs for proof, then on the Wed/Thurs night, Bank of Japan announced they purposesly pushed DOWN the Yen (I'm sure you guys heard about this). Holy profit Batman. His teachings came true 100%. But given all the proofs that he showed us, I shouldn't be surprised, but still. Seeing it in action is impressive. I'm sure he made a nice bundle there again.

Hence, Mr. R is simply an amazing guy. He cares about the students, and he's friendly too. No wonder he has so many friends. He promises to respond to all our emails, maybe late, but he will. And he is true to that word. i emailed him like 3 weeks ago, never heard from him, then suddenly a few days ago, I get his reply. Thanks!!! Of course, I gave him top marks at the evaluation at the end, I think everyone in my class did as well.


Class
Class started on a Saturday, 9am. Basically, they teach you how to day trade stocks by teaching you technical trading skills. They also built many other skills, concepts so you can do this full time to earn a living. Starting on Monday, using the info we were taught on Sat and Sun, everyone trades for real with real money for 2 sessions each day. Each session was I think 2 hour? But when you are trading, you get excited or nervous or mess up by clicking the wrong button, the time flew by so fast, it seemed like 10 minutes. As advertised on their website, you trade with the school's money.

The instructor sets us up by going through a list of MUST DO's each day before you trade. Showing us what info we need to pay attention to, who's up/down graded, sector analysis, etc..... so we can get a feel of what the market will be like today for trading.

You may go long or short on 10 stocks they give you. You may only buy 10 shares max, and keep 1 stock max at a time. Your stop is 10 cents. So things are pretty tight and it was hard to make money. Your goal was to get $0.10 profit and get out. Repeat. It is harder than it looks. My first day, I total gain was like $0.60. Then the rest of the week, I lost like $6.00 total. Due to not being able to use and understand all the things I've learned to clicking on the WRONG button by shorting vs. not shorting. One time I forgot to put in a stop limit (I was busy chatting with my neighbour), the stock I was in dropped 70 cents, the big boss that's monitoring us ran in and yelled at Station #__ for stop limit !!! (Which was my station). So, I am glad I'm able to make this mistake in class and not at home with my own money. There are lots of things you can learn from trading it for real.



Content: http://www.tradingacademy.com/courses/Professional-Trader-Curriculum.aspx

Click on the above link to see the 7-day. Basically it is all technical trading tools and skills. Yes, you can read books to get all this, but you'd have to read maybe 20 books and somehow know to pick out important ones to get the same info. The most important difference is that an Instructor is there to teach it to you. Explain things when you don't understand, and explain WHY that tool is important. And you CANNOT ask a book a question. It won't answer ya.

After introducing a tool, eg. RSI, Mr. R would tell us his opinion on using this. If it was a good indicator or not (from his many years of trading experiences). His experiences alone was worth a lot IMO. Like having someone there to tell me this indicator is lagging so don't use it to make your buy/sell decisions.

The amount of info they taught us was enormous. My head actually hurt when 3pm comes along. It felt like someone stuck a needle full of info and injected it into my brain. I have two big bound paper full of handouts (2 inches thick), and I took so much notes each day, my hands hurt after each day. Reminded me of my University years. At 4pm, everyone in the class was basically spent. But the amazing Mr. R. kept going like the Energizer Bunny. No, actually I bet he'd beat the E Bunny hands down. When I went home every day at 4:30pm, I had to simply rest, soooo much info crammed into my head. I almost dreaded going to the next morning sometimes. Reminded me of my H&R block tax course. So you certainly get your money's worth there in content.

[rfdrfd]

Post Grad: After you've finished the course, you get to login to their STUDENTS section in the website. Wow, there are TONS of stuff in there. Remember, there is UNLIMITED re-takes, so feel free to go back and re-take the class. But if you are working like I am, you’d have to take days off to attend again. There were 3 people in my class that were re-takes. And they all said “yes, their teachings do work, but it is still hard to pull the trigger after you’ve analyzed the heck out of the stock.” So they are there to get more confidence on when to pull the trigger.

On their website, for graduates, one of the coolest, and best things they have is a LIVE (and recorded) lecture taught by OTA instructors around the World. They do one every few weeks and I attended one LIVE on Tuesday (when I didn't have work), and the instructor brings up the charts, about 110 students logged in, and you hear the instructor's voice and see his mouse charting and plotting. You can ask questions live, and he answers them right away. After 1hr of that session, I wanted more. I learned a lot in that session, esp. when the instructor does something, then poses the question to you: “So, is this a buy opportunity?” He then waits for the classes to click “YES” or “NO”. Then reveals his answer.

Each session of course has a topic. They are also recorded, so I can login right now and watch it at my own time. Each session re-emphasizes what we have learned in class, with real examples of stocks, S&P, DJIA charts that is CURRENT. So it shows you if the technical analysis worked or not.

If you want this service to ask about your own stocks, you can too, for a price, they call it XLT. The price is here: http://www.tradingacademy.com/courses/XLT-Stock-Trading.aspx $10,000 !! No joke. But it is a life time membership. So this like a big community of traders, they analyze the hell out of a stock, everyone including OTA instructors are in there, will provide comments. Mr. R tells us they form groups and actually all TRADE at the same time. So I think it is definitely more beneficial when you have >50 people that have analyzed it and deemed it to be a good trade or not.

So for $10k,…. I suppose you should be able to earn that back. I haven’t joined this yet, not sure if I have the time to participate.


Value:
When you talk to the counsellor there, they are able to throw in some extra stuff for free. Like visiting the first 2-3 days of another course, attending workshops, etc. The basic price can't be changed, which is fair I suppose. So it isn't like sitting on a plane to Hawaii, only to find out the guy next to you paid $2000 less. At $5000, it is definitely expensive. Justified? probably not. But, the instructor, content, live trading was TOP NOTCH.

I forgot to add, as stated on the website, you will receive 20% of your monthly commission you paid with Questrade refunded back as cash into your Questrade account each month. This will keep going until you close your Questrade account and to a max of $4995 (your tuition). So, the more you trade with QT, the faster you'll get all your tuition back. So you got your education for free in a sense.

Since you can retake this class for life, unlimited, then I think if you take this class 2x or 3x, then yes, $5000 is definitely justified and worth it. Believe me, you can take this class 5x and still can learn something new. Because the market changes every few months. 1999 tech bubble burst, 2008 financial meltdown, etc. Some students took it during a recession (like me), then I should come back when it is NOT a recession to see what the differences in trading is. You get the picture. Like I said before, you can read technical trading books, they will teach you the same thing, but a book will NOT answer your questions. The book won't look at today's news and teach you which info to pay attention to or not. The book won't be there when you are trading to answer "Mr. R. I drew this support line here, and here's an ascending triangle, am I correct ?"


So there you have it, my brief summary. Am I happy I took it? Yes. Have I used what I learned to gain me money? Not yet, because I haven’t digested everything yet, I estimate I have 60% left to review and digest. But this has made me a smarter buyer right now, I wouldn’t just jump into AAPL because it crossed $300. If I took this course earlier, I wouldn’t have sold AAPL at $150 ! Stupid eh?

Thanks for reading, feel free to ask me any questions, I’ll do my best to answer them. If you are planning to take it, please let me refer you. I get a credit for my next course (if I ever take one). Email or PM me. Thanks.

[ckhw]

Don't know what to say if I should say anything. Good luck. Don't refer this to your friends and family members.

[Therion]

Why not ckhw? Sounds like the OP had a pretty satisfying experience. Do you differ?

[tighty whities]

If OP felt good about it and walked away feeling it added value, good for him and money well spent.

But I can also see ckhw's point though, some people wouldn't drop that kind of money for a seminar.

[simms]

For the vast majority of people, passive index investing with low MERs > stock picking/day trading. Enough said...

But yea, if OP feels good, good for him, and money "well" spent for him.

[ckhw]

Why not ckhw? Sounds like the OP had a pretty satisfying experience. Do you differ?

Are the materials actually usable in real world or just an expensive tutorial to additional fee based services. My experiences to free seminars and 3 months at SwiftTrade as trader trainee suggest the later.

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2010/road_to_rich_dad/main.html

[charliebrown]

I like how they have a "tuition rebate"



Here’s an example to show how it works:

Your Online Trading Academy course costs $4995.
Your broker/dealer offers a 20% commission discount as rebate.
Once you reach $24,975 in commissions—a level that can be quickly attained by an active trader—then your training cost is fully rebated!

[shawn99]

I wouldn't assume after taking a professional day trading course that you can jump in the driver's seat and trade full-time for a living and make a handsome income.

Trading is one of the hardest jobs out there because most don't have control of their emotions when it comes to putting their money on the line. Most of us are risk averse because risk means discomfort and pain. We try to avoid it as much as possible.

Funny how no where in the review do you talk about risk management or trader's psychology which is far more critical than understanding fundamental analysis and technical analysis.




Observations:
- The instructor actually trades for a living? most instructors don't trade and that is the reason they go into the business of teaching and selling seminars
- This course is taught during the day and the instructor day trades? What is going on there? Is he a swing trader?

What I want to see is a instructor that actually trades for a living, grinds it out like the daytraders do...show the skills and knowledge taught in the course and show you are consistent in making profit.Show me your past trades, what % are winners, what is ROI( return on investment) , how much are you risking per trade, why you took the trade etc.

[shawn99]

Are the materials actually usable in real world or just an expensive tutorial to additional fee based services. My experiences to free seminars and 3 months at SwiftTrade as trader trainee suggest the later.

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2010/road_to_rich_dad/main.html

some of the comments are down right difficult to stomach, so many people getting scammed....ahhh


I am out nearly $20,000 dollars. At the $500 class, I was told to get my STRS retirement out and with they educational material and guidance I would be set for life. Is there a class action law suit against this organization yet? I want to be part of it. The practices of this organization are wrong and play on the emotions of people who can not effort to lose. I borrowed money to pay for this $6000 class and am still paying for this at a rate of 23% interest. The trainer said not to worry about this because I would be making more then 23% interest with the investments. How do we start a class action law suit??

Posted by Virignia Hutchens on April 18, 2010 12:41 PM

[rfdrfd]

Good comments by all.

Yes, I forgot to say, some parts of the course where spent on talking about your emotions, how to handle them, and your checklist and toolkit before you take a trade.

For more in depth emotions, trading style, what stocks are right for you and not right for you, they have another workshop, which I got for free that I have to attend, so that is another course.


This is an education, not just a seminar. So its like going to golf school to learn how to play golf. When you graduate from this school, one cannot expect to suddenly be able to play amazing golf.

Yes, the instructor is an active trader, but as an instructor, he said the rules of the school does not allow him to day trade (prob because that will interfere with his teachings everyday, suddenly have to walk outside to make a trade). So he can only swing trade. Same with ALL OTA staff as well. So yes, he puts his teachings into action himself, he showed us his account (he didn't need to, but like I said, he's an honest, nice guy, nothing to hide) and some of his trades. He showed us WHY he put those trades in, using the same skills and analysis that he (and OTA guidelines) taught us. Of course, he has 20+ yrs of experience as well, which we don't have.

The instructors also taught us how the market works. Market makers, routing, things you will never learn from books or internet because it takes someone who's actually been inside to know these things. Yes, there are TONS of insider trading. They told us, it can be as simple as "if I wear a yellow tie today, BUY Google, because our company is going to upgrade it today".

Also, why do you think the market moves up or down JUST before the economic news comes out? (eg. jobless claims). It is supposed to be secret and no one knows until it comes out at say 10:30am. But yet, the market moves in a certain direction at 10:25am. It is because he said, a LOT of people already read the news. Because they had to give the news to CNBC, CNN, etc. to prepare to report it. Hence, lots of eyes have seen it before 10:30am.

He told us, one time a CNBC reporting mistakenly said: "Last night when we were looking at the job numbers, we...... (paused and had a horrible look in his face on live TV). Because he just told the world he SAW the numbers prior to the actual reveal"


I agree with Shawn99, you don't suddenly come out and suddenly get rich. Trading is TOUGH. I should say "successful trading" is very tough.

Yes, $5000 is a lot of money. No other school in Toronto that I've seen provides an education like this. So, they can charge whatever the hell they want. But seriously, if you don't have $5000 to spare, you should not be in the stock market. Stick with GICs, slow mutual funds. Like I said in the other Questrade thread, for me personally, I've lost many $5000 bucks in my early days of trading (when I was in school, not much expenses, part time job). 5 of my fellow students in my class also was in the same boat. Lost $10,000 - $30,000 in their trading years, then finally realized, "I better get an education."

I took this as an education, I learned a lot, and if you want an education, this would be a good place. Worth it or not, up to you to decide. If it was $500, I'm sure everyone wouldn't think twice.

[rfdrfd]

Also, he showed us in the 2008 crash, WHY did we bottom at that level. He used the technical analysis and showed us THERE, exactly the support line from previous year. And he was right. One can predict where the market would have bottomed.

The concept is simple. Mr. R. always told us, it is a self fulfilling prophecy. Because all the BIG players use the same type of technical analysis. Support and resistance lines, Fib. analysis, so after the big sharks draw their lines, they will buy when the price gets to such levels, and sell when it hits this point.

Mr. R. showed us at least 20 real examples of stocks and showed when and why things turned around, everytime, almost exactly at the same levels as technical lines and analysis. Again, self fulfilling.

[ccyk]

if Mr R is still shorting yen, he should be bankrupt by now lol

[rfdrfd]

if Mr R is still shorting yen, he should be bankrupt by now lol

http://www.google.com/finance?q=USDJPY



Don't worry about him, I'm sure he's made his buck and gotten out when needed. He has stops and targets set before he dives in.

[rfdrfd]

I like how they have a "tuition rebate"

Right, i forgot about the tuition rebate. I always thought it was 10%, but 20%? Great !!

Yes, I saw this in my account already, last month, I made 10 trades (buy, sell), so that's $9.95 x2 x10. So if you stay with Questrade long enough you'll get your $5000 back.

Very sweet !

[Anonymouse]

So it's a technical analysis course, i.e. squint at charts and try to figure out what patterns are in them?

[chinamansteve]

OP, I'm glad that you enjoyed this course and brought home some knowledge. I am also an active trader, and to be honest, when I first started I sucked and lost almost 1/2 my money. But I do think that you have to lose money in the beginning to learn from it to become a better trader, and dare I say investor as well.

If you want to hone your skills further, check out www.daytradingradio.com. I've been following this guy for about half a year, and I can say that I've finally been able to consistently make money. He trades live, from 8:30am-4pm everyday, and often runs shows/webinars every Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. He often brings live trading setups that he spots during market hours and lets members know when he buys/sells something. He constantly teaches you the best ways to trade, what to look for, and the discipline and patience it takes to be successful. I can say I've learned a lot and became a much better trader after watching him. It's free to watch, but if you join his membership for $24.95/month (you'll make it back plus more in no time), you get his trade alerts, his weekly research on the best bets/trades for the upcoming week, a live chat room with other traders, as well as the positions that he takes live, that non-members don't get to see. Via the chatroom, you can also ask him questions, and get his opinion on a setup that you are unsure of, and he will answer you live. He's a little too bullish for my taste, but he does bring up a lot of wicked trades and teaches things that you will not learn from reading books, online articles, etc. I do not follow all his trades, but I tend to pick out the best setups (upon my own analysis) from his best setups lol.

The downside is that he trades the US markets only, but from his teachings I've been able to apply what he taught to trade the Canadian market successfully and consistently make profit. Check him out, it's free anyways, and if you find him helpful, join the membership, I did after 5 months of watching him for free. I think I found his site on RFD anyways, so I'm sure other RFDers are already following him.

[tighty whities]

Yes, the instructor is an active trader, but as an instructor, he said the rules of the school does not allow him to day trade (prob because that will interfere with his teachings everyday, suddenly have to walk outside to make a trade). So he can only swing trade. Same with ALL OTA staff as well. So yes, he puts his teachings into action himself, he showed us his account (he didn't need to, but like I said, he's an honest, nice guy, nothing to hide) and some of his trades. He showed us WHY he put those trades in, using the same skills and analysis that he (and OTA guidelines) taught us. Of course, he has 20+ yrs of experience as well, which we don't have.

The instructors also taught us how the market works. Market makers, routing, things you will never learn from books or internet because it takes someone who's actually been inside to know these things. Yes, there are TONS of insider trading. They told us, it can be as simple as "if I wear a yellow tie today, BUY Google, because our company is going to upgrade it today".

Also, why do you think the market moves up or down JUST before the economic news comes out? (eg. jobless claims). It is supposed to be secret and no one knows until it comes out at say 10:30am. But yet, the market moves in a certain direction at 10:25am. It is because he said, a LOT of people already read the news. Because they had to give the news to CNBC, CNN, etc. to prepare to report it. Hence, lots of eyes have seen it before 10:30am.

He told us, one time a CNBC reporting mistakenly said: "Last night when we were looking at the job numbers, we...... (paused and had a horrible look in his face on live TV). Because he just told the world he SAW the numbers prior to the actual reveal"

I took this as an education, I learned a lot, and if you want an education, this would be a good place. Worth it or not, up to you to decide. If it was $500, I'm sure everyone wouldn't think twice.

I question how good he is as a trader, all the one's I've know (institutional, not retail) make a min of $1mln to as high as $8mln. If he had 20+ years experience and is really that good, I question why he would pitch this product (smells like Rich Dad Poor Dad), when he could just execute trades himself .

The insider trading bit, while it still happens isn't as rampant as he's making it out to be. In the 80s, 90s, sure it was rampant, not so much now.

Regulators in the US and Canada are out there looking to nail people more than before. People jockey for position prior to news releases, so what he says is just speculation. Think the SEC isn't monitoring suspicious trade activity? From my experience, I can tell you I would be surprised if analyst recommendation changes were leaked in the houses in Canada.


Also, he showed us in the 2008 crash, WHY did we bottom at that level. He used the technical analysis and showed us THERE, exactly the support line from previous year. And he was right. One can predict where the market would have bottomed.

The concept is simple. Mr. R. always told us, it is a self fulfilling prophecy. Because all the BIG players use the same type of technical analysis. Support and resistance lines, Fib. analysis, so after the big sharks draw their lines, they will buy when the price gets to such levels, and sell when it hits this point.

Mr. R. showed us at least 20 real examples of stocks and showed when and why things turned around, everytime, almost exactly at the same levels as technical lines and analysis. Again, self fulfilling.


To be fair here, for anyone out there who has a good understanding of technical analysis..it is easy to spot and justify (with the supporting trendlines, indicators, the bottom or top of a market well AFTER it has occurred (e.g Murphy) . What he did was not amazing, but spotting the top/bottom at the ACTUAL moment it's happening is something special, which he clearly didn't do here.

The same thing can be done with fundamentals, you can modify forward/trailing multiples, modify/change valuation metrics and it will justify a bottom/top.

Big players (institutional) do not use the same indicators, but the little retail guys do. Institutional guys develop proprietary indicators. The two shops I've been at do not rely on the traditional indicators.. they use either newly created indicators or a derivative of current indicators.

I'm glad you are learning the basics of technicals, but after reading more and more of what he's saying.. it's clear he is also feeding you a lot of fluff.

These seminars are set up to feed off the emotions of those who either desperate, looking to make a quick buck with the least of time invested (shortcuts), the lazy, people looking for the holy grail and people with little to no knowledge. Of course he is going to say it's self-fulfilling because he wants you to believe anyone can do this... so he can sell the product. Murphy is great in justifying moves in the PAST, top/bottoms/breakouts off trendlines, etc. with the benefit of hindsight, but good luck to those who listen to his real time calls.

Again, you feel it's worth it, you received utility from it, which is great... But what I've heard so far from Mr. R is just basic technical analysis.

My buddy took the Rich Man course (he was a financial advisor who lost his job) and wanted me to put up some of my own money as a passive investor in his business :facepalm: a lot of similarities between what my buddy told me and what you've said above. I wonder if these are the same instructors?

[tighty whities]

rfdrfd, I'm not saying this to be a downer.. but after reading what he's saying, sounds like he's taking you and the people who attend these seminars for a ride.

[chinamansteve]

rfdrfd, I'm saying this to be a downer.. but after reading what he's saying, sounds like he's taking you and the people who attend these seminars for a ride.

Although I agree that most of these seminars are "scams", as long as the OP feels it helps them, that's all that matters. I've had a huge argument with one of my friend, who payed more than 10g+ to attend some seminars. I told her those are all scams, and that she should save that 10g for something else. But I realized that she truly feels that it helped her, and as I did not want to continue with the argument and potentially losing a friend, I reluctantly supported her....

[rfdrfd]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions Tightywhites, and *****


I hear and understand your comments and concerns. This course is an education, not a promise to get rich. My examples of Mr. R's success stories is not to prove he was great or not. It was to show he also uses the same teachings OTA teaches you and it works (prob not 100% of the time, like in life). And to show he was a smart guy = a teacher one would like to have.

To all those who say this is a SCAM, I understand what you mean. I felt the same way when I first go the invite to attend a free evening intro session. After I went, I saw that this is a school, not just a seminar to teach you how to spot BUY or SELL signals. Look at the course content topics, do you want to learn about all that? If no, then don't go here. For me, I would like to learn about technical analysis, and all the info there was taught and it was taught well. The tech. analysis content they taught was real. Its in every book on T. Analysis you can get from the library. So its not made up by OTA. Whether or not it works, well, that's up to you to decide. Fundamental vs. technical analysis, I don't think there's a clear winner yet after hundreds of years.

Again, this is a school. One can only call a school a scam if you paid, and the teachers suck, they didn't teach anything they promised, or they cut short your school time, or their content was made up. etc. OTA is none of the above.

So to call this was a scam, then I guess my College or University courses were a scam too. I have never used my Calculus at work yet, nor the physics formulas either. What a waste of my time and money too.

If you missed my earlier edition to my post, as Charlieb pointed out, you get 20% of your commission back every month with Questrade, and this is real. I've gotten it already for my last month. So, after awhile, I'll get my $4995 back. Hence, the only thing I lost was 8hrs x7 of my life, where I learned lots of techn. analysis skills and many stock trading insights. Boo hoo.... To put things into perspective, I lost 2hrs of my life watching the stupid Resident Evil movie last week. Now that was a scam.

[rfdrfd]

So it's a technical analysis course, i.e. squint at charts and try to figure out what patterns are in them?

yes, plus more. Look at the course content online (in my link above).

You learn the insides of how the stock market works (sure you can say he may have lied, but hey, do you know the insides of how stock market works? Probably not, so I'd believe him with a grain of salt). Also, how one should do homework, set yourself up for your trading plan, etc.

Also, don't forget the live trade WITH an instructor to help you. Its like learning to play golf reading a book vs. an instructor right there, holding your hand and swinging with you and telling you what you did right and wrong.

[rfdrfd]

Although I agree that most of these seminars are "scams", as long as the OP feels it helps them, that's all that matters. I've had a huge argument with one of my friend, who payed more than 10g+ to attend some seminars. I told her those are all scams, and that she should save that 10g for something else. But I realized that she truly feels that it helped her, and as I did not want to continue with the argument and potentially losing a friend, I reluctantly supported her....

I've been in the same situations with friends and their religious beliefs and things they did and paid for on behalf of God.

But no, I don't need to defend OTA, as I'm not part of OTA. I get no commissions if they get more students or not. I'm just here to tell everyone what the course was like. Take one for the team you can say. I do have $5000 of spare money, so I took the dive and tried it out.

So ones thinking about it will know what the course is like, so they won't have to gamble with their $5000.

[rageking]

Thank you for your detailed experience with this school.

Do they also have a live trading room 9:15a-4pm M-F so that you can continue to learn and get trade ideas off instructors?

I noticed that you used RSI, do they also use MACD? I was taught to read only MAs and candles by another school. But unfortunately they taught nothing about sector analysis as it was a straight daytrading course.

From what i know of Oline Trading Academy they have travelling instructors from the US so that each batch of student gets a different instructor but at least you get to view the instructors online live as many times as you like. This is actually a big advantage having the viewpoint of 5+ instructors.

[tighty whities]

Thank you for your detailed experience with this school.

Do they also have a live trading room 9:15a-4pm M-F so that you can continue to learn and get trade ideas off instructors?

I noticed that you used RSI, do they also use MACD? I was taught to read only MAs and candles by another school. But unfortunately they taught nothing about sector analysis as it was a straight daytrading course.

From what i know of Oline Trading Academy they have travelling instructors from the US so that each batch of student gets a different instructor but at least you get to view the instructors online live as many times as you like. This is actually a big advantage having the viewpoint of 5+ instructors.

very surprised, especially in daytrading you'll need this.

Wouldn't advise someone to listen to what others say works.. whether it's the type of price charts (P&F, Candlesticks, Close, OHLC, etc.) or which momentum indicators to use (stoch, MACD, RSI, etc). That's a big drawback, the prejudices of the instructors can come through and they will pass on their mistakes (what they believe works) onto you..

[rfdrfd]

Thank you for your detailed experience with this school.

Do they also have a live trading room 9:15a-4pm M-F so that you can continue to learn and get trade ideas off instructors?

I noticed that you used RSI, do they also use MACD? I was taught to read only MAs and candles by another school. But unfortunately they taught nothing about sector analysis as it was a straight daytrading course.

From what i know of Oline Trading Academy they have travelling instructors from the US so that each batch of student gets a different instructor but at least you get to view the instructors online live as many times as you like. This is actually a big advantage having the viewpoint of 5+ instructors.


yes, you trade every day, Mon, Tues, Wed, Thur, Fri, twice each day. So you get a feel for the morning and just before closing session (its quite interesting, heard of the VWAP ? Very neat thing)


Yes, they teach you almost every indicator out there, not just RSI. No, I didn't mean to say I USE RSI. They teach us to use indicators only as a confirmation that your decision was correct. They teach you what you should use to begin your thought process..... then use multiple indicators to confirm your decision.

Instructors: you're prob right. But just like any school, different classes get different instructors, good or bad, to each their own. Listening to more instructors and their experiences is definitely a benefit, no one ever says "getting more points of view is a bad idea, stick with just one teacher."

[rfdrfd]

very surprised, especially in daytrading you'll need this.

Wouldn't advise someone to listen to what others say works.. whether it's the type of price charts (P&F, Candlesticks, Close, OHLC, etc.) or which momentum indicators to use (stoch, MACD, RSI, etc). That's a big drawback, the prejudices of the instructors can come through and they will pass on their mistakes (what they believe works) onto you..

If something worked for them, consistently, that means it WORKS, not that they "believe" it works. Why would you fear teachers would pass on their mistakes?

We are all adults, you should practice and try out things before believing in it 100%. Everyone should be paper trading before putting real money in to test their own theory or things teachers taught them. My philosophy is, don't trust anything until you have proof / reason to do so.

[tighty whities]

If something worked for them, consistently, that means it WORKS, not that they "believe" it works. Why would you fear teachers would pass on their mistakes?

We are all adults, you should practice and try out things before believing in it 100%. Everyone should be paper trading before putting real money in to test their own theory or things teachers taught them. My philosophy is, don't trust anything until you have proof / reason to do so.

If it works for the teachers and "that means it Works", then why is there a need to test?

They could be teaching you something that works well in a certain environment and not so well in another. You can't even be sure these guys have a proven track record so like I said, they could be passing along prejudices/techniques/theories that might work well in hindsight, but are flawed when actually trading.

Like I said previously, if Mr. R and the rest of these guys are so good, they would be trading on their own (especially if their techniques consistently worked). But they aren't so they are pushing this product (Those who can't, teach?). Headhunters would be all over these guys to work on Bay/Wall St if their performance was that good.

I guess I have a different mindset and took a different route to gain knowledge of technicals/quants/fundamentals and trading rather than attending a seminar.

[rageking]

yes, you trade every day, Mon, Tues, Wed, Thur, Fri, twice each day. So you get a feel for the morning and just before closing session (its quite interesting, heard of the VWAP ? Very neat thing)


Yes, they teach you almost every indicator out there, not just RSI. No, I didn't mean to say I USE RSI. They teach us to use indicators only as a confirmation that your decision was correct. They teach you what you should use to begin your thought process..... then use multiple indicators to confirm your decision.

Instructors: you're prob right. But just like any school, different classes get different instructors, good or bad, to each their own. Listening to more instructors and their experiences is definitely a benefit, no one ever says "getting more points of view is a bad idea, stick with just one teacher."


Are you saying each instructor will use a different indicator and it is up to you to figure out what works for you? I hope that isnt the case as that is a recipe for disaster. I was told that indicators should only be used to rule out trades, not put you into trades. Your instructors have learned from different TA schools and they are hired for their trading results and teaching ability, and may explain why each one uses a dif indicator. Kind of scary though.

I've never heard of VWAP before, but keep in mind every single school calls proven techniques their own thing. Many concepts shared among the schools come from work done by a few pioneers decades ago. I subcribe to the workever works for you school ;) I am not averse to mixing and matching tactics from competing schools.

[rfdrfd]

Are you saying each instructor will use a different indicator and it is up to you to figure out what works for you? I hope that isnt the case as that is a recipe for disaster. I was told that indicators should only be used to rule out trades, not put you into trades. Your instructors have learned from different TA schools and they are hired for their trading results and teaching ability, and may explain why each one uses a dif indicator. Kind of scary though.

I've never heard of VWAP before, but keep in mind every single school calls proven techniques their own thing. Many concepts shared among the schools come from work done by a few pioneers decades ago. I subcribe to the workever works for you school ;) I am not averse to mixing and matching tactics from competing schools.

I think you are reading way too deeply into each thing that I'm typing. I only had one instructor, and they all use the same set of slides given to them by OTA.

OTA did NOT invent these trading techniques. It is all the same technical analysis that anyone can read up on and use. They just teach you how to use them, combined with their other concepts of planning, homework, mental and emotional preparedness.

[rfdrfd]

If it works for the teachers and "that means it Works", then why is there a need to test?

They could be teaching you something that works well in a certain environment and not so well in another. You can't even be sure these guys have a proven track record so like I said, they could be passing along prejudices/techniques/theories that might work well in hindsight, but are flawed when actually trading.

Like I said previously, if Mr. R and the rest of these guys are so good, they would be trading on their own (especially if their techniques consistently worked). But they aren't so they are pushing this product (Those who can't, teach?). Headhunters would be all over these guys to work on Bay/Wall St if their performance was that good.

I guess I have a different mindset and took a different route to gain knowledge of technicals/quants/fundamentals and trading rather than attending a seminar.

"Why is there a need to test it?" I was only responding to your previous comment (see your post before mine). How would you know if it works or not unless you test something. That seems logical to me.


Please pay attention because I'll say this again: OTA is NOT a seminar. It is a school. It is one classroom, 20 students, Sat to Fri, 9am-4pm each day, it is a stock trading education course. They are selling an education, not any software that gives you green light red light. There is nothing to prove it works or not, because they are teaching you one way of trading: Technical analysis. (vs. Fundamentals). Read their course outline, that is what you will learn. If those topics do not interest you, don't go to this school.

I don't see why you are trying to prove this school is fake or doesn't work or something. It is an education about stocks. Its like you go to a driving school to learn how to drive. Does it guarantee you will get your license? Of course not. But as far as your driving teacher knows, he is teaching you the way to drive that he was taught to teach (according to his slides for example). Same here with OTA.

[rfdrfd]

From the OTA website, they linked to this site. Technical analysis at work. You can track it and see if their analysis works or not.

http://powertradingblog.com/blog/

[tighty whities]

"Why is there a need to test it?" I was only responding to your previous comment (see your post before mine). How would you know if it works or not unless you test something. That seems logical to me.

???
my OG statement was that these "traders" could have prejudices in their preferred methods that have flaws, which can be passed onto you.
You said "If something worked for them, consistently, that means it WORKS".. so I'm just saying, by your statement, if "it WORKS" why the need to test as you said later that it should be done?


If something worked for them, consistently, that means it WORKS, not that they "believe" it works. Why would you fear teachers would pass on their mistakes?

I am paying attention, you can keep repeating it.. this is a seminar to me.
I'm surprised that you've been trading, yet you are amazed at learning just the basic principles of technical analysis and just discovering VWAP?

I said the guy was throwing a lot of fluff and pointing out to others who who might be impressed by the fluff: playing up the insider trading, pointing out the 2008 market bottom (now), Technicals are a self-fulfilling prophecy, showing his personal trading account, schmoozing with CEOs, etc

Like I said, hearing these tactics make it harder to understand why anyone would take this course.. and I pointed out earlier the kind of people who buy into this. As I understand, Rich Dad is also advertised as a course.

Anyway, you seemed impressed and it's your money.. go crazy.


Please pay attention because I'll say this again: OTA is NOT a seminar. It is a school. It is one classroom, 20 students, Sat to Fri, 9am-4pm each day, it is a stock trading education course. They are selling an education, not any software that gives you green light red light. There is nothing to prove it works or not, because they are teaching you one way of trading: Technical analysis. (vs. Fundamentals). Read their course outline, that is what you will learn. If those topics do not interest you, don't go to this school.
To drop that kind of coin

I don't see why you are trying to prove this school is fake or doesn't work or something. It is an education about stocks. Its like you go to a driving school to learn how to drive. Does it guarantee you will get your license? Of course not. But as far as your driving teacher knows, he is teaching you the way to drive that he was taught to teach (according to his slides for example). Same here with OTA.

[rfdrfd]

I am paying attention, you can keep repeating it.. this is a seminar to me.
I'm surprised that you've been trading, yet you are amazed at learning just the basic principles of technical analysis and just discovering VWAP?

I said the guy was throwing a lot of fluff and pointing out to others who who might be impressed by the fluff: playing up the insider trading, pointing out the 2008 market bottom (now), Technicals are a self-fulfilling prophecy, showing his personal trading account, schmoozing with CEOs, etc

Like I said, hearing these tactics make it harder to understand why anyone would take this course.. and I pointed out earlier the kind of people who buy into this. As I understand, Rich Dad is also advertised as a course.

Anyway, you seemed impressed and it's your money.. go crazy.

To each their own. Technical analysis is some of what they teach. Read the syllabus again on their website on the other things they teach. The other things as mentioned like live trading with a teacher, having someone there to guide you through daily changes and how it impacts stocks, to name a few makes it more than just technical analysis.

It is easy to call it fluff if you weren`t there and haven`t taken the course. What they taught was real things in the trading world. All topics are found in many books that one can read. Where it works or not, up to you to decide. Why someone would take this course is if you believe in the purpose and topics of their course. If you don't like what you read on their website and their intro seminar, do not take it. Simple.

Whether its worth the money, read my initial post and determine it for yourself. In my opinion, learning is a life long experience. So for those who was wondering what the OTA course was like, there you have it.

[clipz]

Great review if I ever have the money and chance to go I would.

[westcoastresident]

Half a year ago, I contacted OTA to inquiry about the tuition. I sent an email and was approached by a man shortly.

After getting to know the expensive cost to take the course, I said to the man that because I was a new (novice) investor and I don't think I will spend so much $$$ on this course right now.

He was angry, very apparently. He raised his voice and shouted to me, if you do not take this course, you will lose your money. You will lose all your money.

I was astonished for response like this.

[westcoastresident]

To be honest, even big funds with deep pocket and top analysts have been beaten by the market in long term.

If you think you are unique and outperform most funds and smart guys, good luck.

If stock market is as scientific as math & physics, there will be much less fun there.

Added:

I am not here to blame anybody or the school. I strongly believe that technical analysis is a very important aspect when it comes to success in trading. My point is, do not emphasize too much on that. It is not math or physics, so it cannot be too technical. But it is indeed some sort of science, so there must be some rules and rails there.

[westcoastresident]

Many thanks to OP for detailed review.

FYI:

More reviews:

http://www.forextradingcoursereviews.com/review/review-items/online-trading-academy

[slavka012]

Also, he showed us in the 2008 crash, WHY did we bottom at that level. He used the technical analysis and showed us THERE, exactly the support line from previous year. And he was right. One can predict where the market would have bottomed.
That's what the technical analysis is ONLY good for -- explaining AFTER THE FACT why things happened the way they did.

[SpillOnAisle9]

That's what the technical analysis is ONLY good for -- explaining AFTER THE FACT why things happened the way they did.

You've obviously never planned a day based on a weather forecast. What do you think they use for that? A crystal ball and some
chicken giblets? ;)

Before you say "yeah they're always wrong too" think about how many times they're right or even the fact they are right at all. Past
performance cannot predict future performance except when it does (sometimes).

[slavka012]

You've obviously never planned a day based on a weather forecast. What do you think they use for that? A crystal ball and some
chicken giblets? ;)

Before you say "yeah they're always wrong too" think about how many times they're right or even the fact they are right at all. Past
performance cannot predict future performance except when it does (sometimes).
What's weather forecast has to do with technical analysis? Nothing. You think they analyze charts and graphs too?

With technical analysis it is more like "oh, wow, I can correctly guess heads or tails 50% of the times you toss a coin".

[SpillOnAisle9]

What's weather forecast has to do with technical analysis? Nothing. You think they analyze charts and graphs too?


From: "Technical Analysis of the Financial Markets", John J. Murphy, 1999 ISBN 0-7352-0066-1 Page 18



Can the Past Be Used to Predict the Future

Another question often raised concerns the validity of using past price data to predict the future. It is surprising how often
critics of the technical approach bring up this point because every known method of forecasting, from weather predicting
to fundamental analysis, is based completely on the study of past data. What other kind of data is there to work with?


I haven't totally swallowed the kool-aid BTW. The whole thing is based on predicting human behaviour and we all know how
unpredictable we all are. Some technical indicators lag, and some lead. Others contradict....you have to take a blended
approach. Last year when the Teacher's buy-out of BCE was going to happen and then not yadda yadda yadda I got a
call from my broker who told me to look at RSI for BCE. It was _way_ oversold according to RSI. Took a chance based on
the indicator and went in/out in 2 days and made $3k . It works....but it's not a sure thing because of the 'human factor'

[slavka012]

From: "Technical Analysis of the Financial Markets", John J. Murphy, 1999 ISBN 0-7352-0066-1 Page 18

Weather prediction is pure physics. It is orders of magnitude more complex than what tech. analysis does, and way more accurate as well. That it fails to be 100% accurate is due to the fact that weather is non-deterministic. Another fundamental difference is that we can all predict weather 24/7 -- it is not going to change the weather itself. Not so with TA -- if significant part of market participants use it, it WILL alter the market behavior, thus invalidating the model that TA uses.

[rfdrfd]

Its been awhile since I have been a graduate of OTA. How's it been? Well, I've gotten some successful trades, but honestly I have lost money overall, and there is one reason: I did not follow OTA rules in all those trades. Emotion is the biggest hinderance as OTA instructors always tell us. That is so true. I'm also attending OTA's online sessions every week, watching old recordings, so much to learn and digest and put into practice. Going through the learning curve, but much closer to exiting that compared to before. As OTA says, the trick is to get through the learning curve WITHOUT blowing up your account.

My downfalls: Price goes close to my stop, I exit (manually, before my stop) thinking "may as well get out with less loss", only to have the price turn before my stop and it ended up to be an excellent trade, without me on board Or, I enter a position outside the zone and so that messes up my stop level and then you don't feel like exiting because its a loser. Or worse of all, trading without a plan or no stop. Everything OTA teaches us not to do. Listening and putting things into practice is TWO different things.

My chart analysis skills have definitely improved. I'm pretty darn good at it, its is the actual ENTERING into the trade after my analysis that I need work on.

For example, just last night, I went back to my old nemisis, FAS and FAZ (3x financial ETF). I gains lots from this pair and lost lots in the past. So thought, would OTA teachings actually work on this super fast ETF? See for yourself.

Note: This is ONLY looking at price, no volume, RSI, BBands. And I didn't even look at Reward/Risk ratios yet.


http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1618/fasu.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/fasu.jpg/)[/URL]

Overall: looking at FAS on a daily chart, its on an uptrend since 2011 October. OTA says: Go LONG on pull backs to quality Demand Zones (DZ).

Looking at my attached chart here, from 2012 Jan to 2012 April, trend is definitely up. We can definitely draw some quality Demand Zones. Then price starts coming down, START HERE

1st DZ: Area (A) because there was a gap up = lots of demand. One should go long at (a) @ ~$93, and if you managed it right, it went all the way to $108

2nd DZ: (b) would NOT be another chance to go long as well all know, that is just a re-test of (a) = PASS

3rd DZ: Area (D) was another gap up, but we can all see that's not fresh either, that's a re-test from (E). But if you did go long at (d) say $88. This did NOT work out, and you would have been stopped out at say $85.62 (low of that previous red candle). But really, we would not buy long here since it is not fresh.

4th DZ: Area (F) was another gap up, but its very close to (E) which makes (F) not a fresh zone = PASS

5th DZ: Area (G) was another gap up, but we can also see that is already tested just a few candles to the right (circled) = PASS

6th DZ: Area (H) another gap up. So long at (g), say $71 (middle of the zone)..... and today price is 86.64; stop did not trigger yet


Overall Tally:
1st DZ = $ 15 profit
2nd DZ = pass
3rd DZ = 2.38 loss <--- let's say we were dumb enough to buy this one
4th DZ = pass
5th DZ = pass
6th DZ = 15.64 profit

Total = $ 28.26 profit per share

200 shares = $ 5652........
500 shares = $14,130; okay maybe we don't have that much money to play with, but you get the idea

[FunSave22]

Its been awhile since I have been a graduate of OTA. How's it been? Well, I've gotten some successful trades, but honestly I have lost money overall, and there is one reason: I did not follow OTA rules in all those trades.
Could it also be because all of the evidence shows that nearly all day traders underperform the market?

And there's also no evidence that any of the daytrading schools produce investors that are any better than a monkey throwing darts.



Of course, psychologically people are hesitant to admit that something they spent a lot of time and energy on may be useless. Especially when they also spent a huge amount of money paying for those courses.

So unfortunately you are probably going to keep up what you are doing. Even though all of the evidence is extremely clear that the is little chance you are going to outperform in the long term. That's too bad.

[aviador]

US$7000 is quite expensive for a 7d online seminar. For the cost of this seminar alone anyone could get an MBA degree from some Canadian universities! -- or paid only the key/relevant courses and take it part-time networking with some future professional traders!

IMHO, an online MBA from an American university would be the best training investment for an amateur stock trader. Part of the MBA investment recouped by salary, the other part as successful tradings (? :LOL: )

Another problem with OTA trading training is that it is a series, the XLT and the Forex would cost a couple of thousands (US$11,500 X 2 + ... ?). Among other course series like futures, options, etc.

OP, don't take it personally. We just have different opinions. ;)

[Scorbles]

It was great to see such an in-depth review of the course and nice to see the follow-up post with results... Though I suspect anyone from the finance world would guess the results were at least somewhat predictable. I'd like at add a few comments - I worked at various brokerage firms as a trader for eight years and then successfully on my own (as a short term momentum trader) for four years. If I hadn't found more exciting ventures I would still be doing it...

The OP mentioned that 'if you don't have $5k to spare you shouldn't be in the stock market.' I've heard a similar argument made for other trading courses (FX especially). You need MUCH more than $5,000 to spare to justify spending $5,000 on a course. If you have $100k to invest you need to beat the index by more than 5% to make back your course costs in a year (a very difficult task). I had eight years of experience and I was still very content to beat the index by 5%-10% trading for myself. I would not expect similar results from a course regardless of how comprehensive the course material was.

In my opinion (and most professional traders share this opinion), you will get far more value putting the $5,000 into an account and trading with it. Set rules, do technical research, read books, keep stats and adjust. If you aren't motivated to do the research on your own then this is not the game for you. You should LOVE the charts. You should get excited about the trends. If it just seems like a means to an end then you will get bored and make mistakes. Maybe $5,000 is a small amount relative to your net worth but it is enough to start learning. Play money accounts are possible but it is a different game entirely once you start trading with real money (even a small amount). If you can't stick to your rules with $5,000 at risk you won't stick to your rules with $250,000 at risk either. $5,000 is plenty to test your self discipline (a lack of which is the downfall of many trader).

I've had this conversation with other people considering expensive courses to quickly master trading. They usually go ahead with the course anyways. I have yet to hear of anyone being successful. The get-rich-easy allure is too strong and means these courses will always have customers.

Also, people don't share the really good ideas. If you have great ideas then you keep them secret and end up making 2&20 managing a hedge fund. If you have good ideas you end up prop trading for a big bank. If you have decent ideas you might be an institutional broker and share your ideas with mutual fund managers. If you have average ideas you might be a broker to small investors. If you don't have ideas you might end up selling expensive trading courses. It's the pecking order of the finance industry.

I've had many people ask me about trading. I tell them to start reading about some trends and technical indicators and following some patterns. If it excites them, then they should keep reading and starting trading a very small amount. If they are not excited they should park their money in ETFs and forget about it. Trading will not work for you unless you love it.

Sorry to ramble on. Maybe someone finds this useful. If you are considering paying for a trading course please PM me and I'd be happy to discuss free education alternatives.

[renoldman]

....


.....

Why not go long, the day after b ?

Looks like it held the low from a .....

Enter a long trade with a stop at $93 (or whatever the low at b was)

After this, move the stop up to the low of the previous day.

Would have been stopped out ultimately at 103.5 (rough estimate).

[dlhunter]

What OP described is not day trading. At least dt doesn't involve daily charts.
From my experience, few traders will ever admit to losing money and nobody can be 100% right all the time. Further, you can't make serious money trading every day.
Certain brokers have free educational seminars and even live trading Show(tos).

[rfdrfd]

US$7000 is quite expensive for a 7d online seminar. For the cost of this seminar alone anyone could get an MBA degree from some Canadian universities! -- or paid only the key/relevant courses and take it part-time networking with some future professional traders!

IMHO, an online MBA from an American university would be the best training investment for an amateur stock trader. Part of the MBA investment recouped by salary, the other part as successful tradings (? :LOL: )

Another problem with OTA trading training is that it is a series, the XLT and the Forex would cost a couple of thousands (US$11,500 X 2 + ... ?). Among other course series like futures, options, etc.

OP, don't take it personally. We just have different opinions. ;)

None taken, and I do agree with your comments. The cost is ridiculously expensive. Although, I did make back my $5000 (cost when I took it back then). But then, i lost it back because I didn't follow OTA's rules and emotion got the best of me. Again, my fault.


It was great to see such an in-depth review of the course and nice to see the follow-up post with results... Though I suspect anyone from the finance world would guess the results were at least somewhat predictable. I'd like at add a few comments - I worked at various brokerage firms as a trader for eight years and then successfully on my own (as a short term momentum trader) for four years. If I hadn't found more exciting ventures I would still be doing it...

The OP mentioned that 'if you don't have $5k to spare you shouldn't be in the stock market.' I've heard a similar argument made for other trading courses (FX especially). You need MUCH more than $5,000 to spare to justify spending $5,000 on a course. If you have $100k to invest you need to beat the index by more than 5% to make back your course costs in a year (a very difficult task). I had eight years of experience and I was still very content to beat the index by 5%-10% trading for myself. I would not expect similar results from a course regardless of how comprehensive the course material was.

In my opinion (and most professional traders share this opinion), you will get far more value putting the $5,000 into an account and trading with it. Set rules, do technical research, read books, keep stats and adjust. If you aren't motivated to do the research on your own then this is not the game for you. You should LOVE the charts. You should get excited about the trends. If it just seems like a means to an end then you will get bored and make mistakes. Maybe $5,000 is a small amount relative to your net worth but it is enough to start learning. Play money accounts are possible but it is a different game entirely once you start trading with real money (even a small amount). If you can't stick to your rules with $5,000 at risk you won't stick to your rules with $250,000 at risk either. $5,000 is plenty to test your self discipline (a lack of which is the downfall of many trader).

I've had this conversation with other people considering expensive courses to quickly master trading. They usually go ahead with the course anyways. I have yet to hear of anyone being successful. The get-rich-easy allure is too strong and means these courses will always have customers.

Also, people don't share the really good ideas. If you have great ideas then you keep them secret and end up making 2&20 managing a hedge fund. If you have good ideas you end up prop trading for a big bank. If you have decent ideas you might be an institutional broker and share your ideas with mutual fund managers. If you have average ideas you might be a broker to small investors. If you don't have ideas you might end up selling expensive trading courses. It's the pecking order of the finance industry.

I've had many people ask me about trading. I tell them to start reading about some trends and technical indicators and following some patterns. If it excites them, then they should keep reading and starting trading a very small amount. If they are not excited they should park their money in ETFs and forget about it. Trading will not work for you unless you love it.

Sorry to ramble on. Maybe someone finds this useful. If you are considering paying for a trading course please PM me and I'd be happy to discuss free education alternatives.

Also agree, the $7000 price tag is sky high. Worth it or not, it depends on how you view it. The education and material is real and in depth. They put a huge amount of effort into it. It is unlimited re-takes as I mentioned, so you can go back like 10 times (if you have time), and you will learn something new every time. That you cannot do with University. I went to U of T and that cost me $5000 a year I think back then. But, I can't go back and re-take the courses for free. As well, you get to learn from the teachers in close proximity. You learn from their tips, tricks, stories.

I went back for a 2nd time on the 7 day class, and it was very good because I can finally understand and APPLY what the teacher was talking about instead of trying to understand a foreign language. My 1st time around wasn't even applying anything. Also, live trading IN FRONT of a coach, was very much useful. Its like paying for a tutor for hours. How much does that cost?

A few instructors told us, they paid $10,000 before to get a coach to sit with them to teach them back in the days. I don't believe they made that up. They lost like $100,000 bucks before they realized they needed real education and coaching. Which OTA gives you some of.

Every time I listen to their Live XLT sessions (yes, another 1 time big, $$$ fee), they show you why all the trading books are 100% WRONG. If someone is going to play the markets and just go by books or seminars, and don't have any real education before, they will lose money in the long run, guaranteed. Luck only gets you so far.

So for OTA, I can say their material is 100% good, emcompasses everything (trading plan, newbie progression plan, what to trade, emotions, pitfalls, etc), yes, there are other ways of trading the market to be successful, as they always say, there's more than 1 way to get to the top of the mountain, but OTA's material is easy to learn, makes sense and with their trading plan, IF YOU STICK TO their rules, you will succeed in the end.

Is it worth $5000-7000 ? Of course not, but since they are one of the only schools out there that does it, they can charge whatever the hell they want.

Make no mistake about it, there is a HUGE learning curve. I think I typed before, the goal is to get thru this curve WITHOUT blowing up your account. OTA's rules will help you survive this curve, only if you are disciplined enough to follow it.

Just like this morning, it took so much to stop me from just hitting BUY on FAZ, being an outside day, probability was good for market to continue down. But, FAZ is not in any DZ, so OTA rules tells us not to do that. So I sat on my hand.

They have lots of good sayings:

- SOH (sit on hands)
- don't diddle in the middle
- its called "waiting" NOT "trading"
- trade like a professional

[rfdrfd]

I also wanted to type, regarding the cost for a 7-day course at OTA, when i took it, it was $5000. Ya, that looked like a very big amount, but:

I looked at it this way: A few years before that, I bought my Toshiba laptop, Pentium 4, and it cost me $4600 + x-tended warranty + 15% tax. (Its still working BTW haha). This was actually profits I gained from buying (long) RIM stock. Then, of course, after that win, I felt invincible, bought some more RIM stock (even more shares this time). Well, I think I lost $10,000 after that one. Lucky I sold it before it went to single digits.

Plasma TV's were like $3000, even an Apple laptop was $3000, so I thought, $5000 to get an education, unlimited re-takes. Let's invest in myself first.

After going to the class, I finally realized HOW much I did NOT know about the markets. Boy that was humbling.

As my first instructor said: YOU don't even KNOW how much you don't know. Soooo true.

[SkimGuy]

Glad to see OP got something out of the course.

For me, I'll stick to Index ETFs :)

[BSchlick]

OTA is a horrible waste of Money. They do little more than cover the basics, and over charge for it heavily.

[shawn99]

Believe it or not I haven't spend a dime on trading education. Lot of the basics ( technical analysis, fundamentals, risk management etc. ) can be read in books, most are in theory and not practical to trading. 90% of the education books/courses with high price point is selling the "dream" and written by people that are in the business of trading education, not actual trading business. People love the snake oil sales pitch. It works on the human emotion and that is one of the reason these institutions are so successful.


How I learned was from other real traders that place actual trades in their brokerage accounts, tons of consistent reputable traders on the social media networks that share their charts and analysis. My biggest recommendation is to find a mentor. However as a trader, you have be able to think for yourself, use common sense logical reasoning and be a research junkie. For example trading gaps on the stocks/index is a profitable strategy that can be back-tested by simply importing data into excel and running formulas, you can fine tune it by adding variables etc. to get something like a 70% win rate. Another one is how often pivots get tagged when we open within prior day range on the index.

Trading education is life long, it doesn't stop after you take a course and you are on your merry way to big returns. Markets are constantly changing, evolving. Trading a strategy based on how difficult it is requires lot of research, homework and back-testing on your own. Then there is the psychology aspect of how you deal with money and losses. Then there is a the discipline to be able to do it consistently. Reality is most just don't want to do the work or don't have the time and want things handed to them on a silver platter.

Like a poster said earlier, if you want bigger returns and have the passion/hunger to work, you will seek out that information. If this stuff is too much work or you are lazy, just stick your money in a index ETF and dollar cost average.

[rfdrfd]

Listening to a recording and just saw this slide. OTA called the 2009 BOTTOM. Live on XLT (their online live session).

Here's the proof. The left side is the live XLT session and the instructor (Sam Seiden - google him) pointing out the bottom after the 2008 crash.

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5930/xltg.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/196/xltg.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[victornumber]

They do make money trading most of the time. The problem is the rare time when a bad trade is made that wipes you out. The poster uses very little amount of money and doesn't move the stock price. The problem comes when a large amount like 6-7 figures is used and finding someone to take the opposite end of your trade is difficult. getting in and out of the market would move the stock price. This is an expensive education and if you have the time, read the top recommended investing and trading books and show up to trading seminars held by professionals at universities which are usually free or sometimes cost max $10. The majority of the money made in this case is not from trading but selling trading education seminars and possibly subscriptions. In this case, it is like sales in the way that the trading academy provides the materials and the franchise in Toronto presents the material. One has to ask the question why is he such a devoted fan. Could it be that rfdrfd was a student that loved the course so much that he even bought his own franchise? Another thing is posting trades and encouraging others to buy the same stock. If you shorted a stock, wouldn't telling others to short the same stock drive the stock price down when enough people does it in the short term much the same way stock price promotors drive a stock price up and down. The last person that shorted the stock could find themselves holding the short end if the stick. In the long term, stocks are based on fundamentals but in the short term, it can be manipulated ( eg silver price falling to $8 in 2009).

[victornumber]

From what I have seen, most of the students lose money in the long term. Think of it like a university course. You can have the best professor in the world on the subject yet the class average is 60%. Even if you have a talented instructor, unless you " get" it and can see not just the chart but what is behind that chart, you would likely lose in the long term. An average accountant for example can see a balance sheet and if it adds up. A talented accountant can see the balance sheet and the numbers behind that balance sheet ( eg would have detected that Nortel had accounting fraud). All of the chart readings and indicators are programmed into softwares so a normal trader might wake up and get a sell signal from the software. The judgements about what to do is based on experience and one can only earn that with time. Also, keep in mind that you are trading the markets against algarithms on powerful computers in the short time frame. Rfdrfd said that in another post you do not hear from other TA members because they are too busy making money. I've heard that TA doesn't have a forum on their site for past students. I would assume any traders would spend a lot of time communicating with other traders to share trading ideas. Online trader forum surveys from people who did take the course showed a large number of people losing money. Even if a method is the most perfect method, introducing the human factor leads to a large number of variations and uncertainties from emotional responses, to different risk level, seeking the thrill of trading and leading to over trading,etc.If TA is such an amazing method, why do they not control one of the world's top trading hedge funds? The top trading firm is renaissance technologies controlling 10 percent of trading volumes traded by supercomputers based on complex algarithms.

[rfdrfd]

They do make money trading most of the time. The problem is the rare time when a bad trade is made that wipes you out. The poster uses very little amount of money and doesn't move the stock price. The problem comes when a large amount like 6-7 figures is used and finding someone to take the opposite end of your trade is difficult. getting in and out of the market would move the stock price. This is an expensive education and if you have the time, read the top recommended investing and trading books and show up to trading seminars held by professionals at universities which are usually free or sometimes cost max $10. The majority of the money made in this case is not from trading but selling trading education seminars and possibly subscriptions. In this case, it is like sales in the way that the trading academy provides the materials and the franchise in Toronto presents the material. One has to ask the question why is he such a devoted fan. Could it be that rfdrfd was a student that loved the course so much that he even bought his own franchise? Another thing is posting trades and encouraging others to buy the same stock. If you shorted a stock, wouldn't telling others to short the same stock drive the stock price down when enough people does it in the short term much the same way stock price promotors drive a stock price up and down. The last person that shorted the stock could find themselves holding the short end if the stick. In the long term, stocks are based on fundamentals but in the short term, it can be manipulated ( eg silver price falling to $8 in 2009).

I can understand your skepticism, unless you've been through the course. It isn't about how much money you use on a trade, it is based on how much risk (in $ amount) that you are going to take. And the reward that you expect to get. If it is not 3:1 or 2:1, you do not take this trade. Go to another stock and setup. I could tell you exactly how the method is, but then why would I give out for free what cost me time and money to learn?

No, haha, I don't own a franchise. Wish I had enough money to do so. They are making a killing!

Trading is NOT easy. Even after you learn the method, ASSUMING OTA methods work let's say, you have these things going against you:
- your emotions, media, greed, external influences that is 100% opposite of what you learned

Just the simple EMOTIONS can make you lose. That's why OTA even has a psychiatrist to do 2hr online sessions with us, twice a month. Dr. Johnson, he also writes on the Lessons from the Pros newsletter. Read it for free on their website. You'll see he's not fake. His stuff is real and very useful.

I've said it before, it takes a LONG time to get this. Because market changes, you change, your life changes. Once you don't stick to a rule, you will lose. Again, you ONLY get into a trade if the Risk/Reward is good, then you have your stop to kick you out. Yes, sometimes things gap and your stop is triggered beyond your risk, but that's life in stock trading. That doesn't happen to often. Accept it and move on.

OTA teaches you how to NOT blow your account up until you get it. Then after you get it, you keep on doing the same. SAME risk $, increased slowly. They have rules for that too. I am slowly turning the corner on this learning curve. As you can see from my stock picks on RFD here, they've all been net profitable. My stock picks could have gone either way, but they did not, why not? Luck ? Or maybe its skill and education?

And you can think of 1 million reasons why something doesn't work, but don't let that convince you to shut your mind to something that possibly can work. Esp. if someone here that has gone through it and showing you proof and has no benefits of lying to you.

I'm going back to re-take the course the 3rd time in November. Anyone else, let me know, see you in class !


What I can truly say is, EVERYONE that doesn't get an education in trading stocks WILL lose in the long term. That is a guarantee. Just listen to BNN's phonecallers. How many of them are winning? I watch BNN every night for at least 5-6 hrs and I have heard like 5 callers this entire week that are actually in a profitable situation. Every call sounds like this:

I bought this at $x.xx 5 yrs now, its gone down quite a bit, what do you think I should do? Will it come back up?


(I watch BNN not for their advice, but to see which "expert" lies or not. Also to give me trading ideas, usually the OPPOSITE of what the "expert" says)

[rfdrfd]

Look at my recent comments on the posts:

TCM = said it was bad idea to buy it, and look at price today. Went down to exactly what I said it would: 2.83 (actually it is 2.80 right now)
RIMM = said it was smarter to short it AFTER the earnings and i did and got my 8% gain today
EUR/USD = my supply zone worked out 100% perfectly
BTU = same thing, someone said it was a buy, i said this is a short. If you shorted it from my zone, $4 per share profit right now = 15%

Just to name a few. And no, I'm not hiding any bad ones. Look at my tracking. Every stock posted BEFORE it happened, nothing hidden, not saying things after the fact.

All the above, I used skills learned from this school.

[red_skittles]

Rfdrfd, maybe people wouldn't be so skeptical if you would stop trying to shove it down our throats every chance you get. Give it a rest. We get it, you benefited from the course but seriously its just annoying when someone brings up the same thing over and over again. You're like a religious zealot. Finding you're own religion isnt enough so you feel the need to push it on to everyone else as well under the pretext that its for their own good

[rfdrfd]

One of the best written article to read:

http://lessons.tradingacademy.com/article/focus/

"What makes this focus so hard for most people is all the other things they let into their decision making process. For example, prior to taking these trades above, you may want to think about the economic numbers coming out that day. On the 26th trade, GDP came out. Wrong! We don’t consider that number or pay attention to it. All we care about when it comes to profitable trading is where the big buyers and sellers are in a market.

You may want to see what’s happening in Greece or Spain or the next country nearing default. Let me tell you something… allocating one ounce of my focus on that is useless when it came to identifying where institutions were selling the Nasdaq and then shorting in those areas. The focus needs to be 100% on where the institution sell orders are that day and then selling there, nothing else. When it comes to profitable trading, knowing the details of what is happing to European economy is as important as knowing what the Rover is doing on Mars that day, you get my point."

[rfdrfd]

An example of 2012 Dec 12's online XLT session. What a beautiful setup. 1 day later, price dropped to 62.76.


http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1118/qcom.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/812/qcom.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[rfdrfd]

Holy drop batman. QCOM is 59.90 right now. 65.50 entry short from instructor. That's a profit of $ 5.60 per share (8.5%) in 2 days.


An example of 2012 Dec 12's online XLT session. What a beautiful setup. 1 day later, price dropped to 62.76.


http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1118/qcom.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/812/qcom.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[FunSave22]

I guess it's too bad that a month ago you told everyone to sell all of their stocks and mutual funds and to instead short the market or buy inverse ETFs. So we won't be able to take advantage of your great buying opportunities.


When is that crash happening anyway?

[ACC-Major]

Rfdrfd is losing it.
He just wont admit that his new found power is just a belief.

Rfdrfd, are you ready to learn how real investing works?

[charliebrown]

Rfdrfd is losing it.
He just wont admit that his new found power is just a belief.

Rfdrfd, are you ready to learn how real investing works?

He'll be laughing at all of us when it does crash.

His new found power seems to be yielding profits on short term flips. Take the profit off the table and no need to worry about losing $ (or getting stopped out if his long or short bet turns out to be wrong).

[rfdrfd]

Yesterday's online live session broke an attendance record I think. 497 students. No wonder, because Sam Seiden was speaking and the CEO of OTA was there to talk about "Success". He came from Israel where in 1 month, their stock market crashed and lost 90% of its value. Everyone was screwed. He was in Hong Kong at that time and had only $300 bucks in his pocket.

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1554/xlt20121218.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/812/xlt20121218.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[rfdrfd]

Here's an inspiration for everyone here, if you properly get the education and work at it, there is gold at the end of the rainbow.

One student emailed Sam S. and thanked him, and said, his retirement account is now 1.8 million; thanks to OTA's education. Actually, that's not the first time I've heard about it, the boss at the OTA Toronto says he is close to 1 million for his Retirement (RSP) account as well. He said, knowing himself, once he reaches his goal of 1 million, he'll set 2 million as his next goal.

Screenshot of Sam's chat message to the room:

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/9414/otastudentprofits.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/otastudentprofits.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[manning1]

very nice!

[TripleHelix]

Here's an inspiration for everyone here, if you properly get the education and work at it, there is gold at the end of the rainbow.

One student emailed Sam S. and thanked him, and said, his retirement account is now 1.8 million; thanks to OTA's education. Actually, that's not the first time I've heard about it, the boss at the OTA Toronto says he is close to 1 million for his Retirement (RSP) account as well. He said, knowing himself, once he reaches his goal of 1 million, he'll set 2 million as his next goal.

Screenshot of Sam's chat message to the room:

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/9414/otastudentprofits.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/otastudentprofits.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

LOL

You are cracking me up rfdrfd.

Of course they wouldn't make up stories of students having 1.8million in their retirement account from taking their classes. Just like those pyramid schemes wouldn't pump up their supposed profit to make more people join up.

[jedi1648]

http://www.complaintboard.com/online-trading-academy-l199.html

I don't know if I would call them a blatant scam, but they do overpromise and under deliver. The workshops are a blatant sales pitch sort of like going to an Amway meeting, only worse. A lot of hype. No real meat. Just a lot of bologna. Mostly style with very little substance.

Traders I spoke with at the center said they were all losing money. One indicated that he was barely breaking even after retaking classes numerous times for about a year and spending over $20, 000 in courses on upsells.

The classes themselves are very generalized information, hardly worth the price they charge. The retake is a joke, much like the old Glenn W. Turner "Dare To Be Great" motivational courses which also offered lifetime retakes but the company kept getting shut down and you had to enroll all over again. So my question to OTA is, what is lifetime?

Online Trading Academy would do PT Barnum proud and as for the people who bought into this so called "academy" PT Barnum was right, "a sucker is born every minute."

Online Trading Academy has been around for about 20 years. It has had many name changes since it started as Momentum Securities, then Block Trading, then Newport Beach Securities and finally Online Trading Academy. Why all the name changes?

The classes are very expensive starting at $5, 000 but they will attempt to upsell you to a $65, 000 program and tell you that you are getting a bargain.

Trainers overall are so, so. Not that great and not worth the price they charge.

OTA is now aggressively pushing informercials much like Teach Me To Trade and so many other get rich quick schemes that have dissappeared. It has been assumed that the people appearing in said informercials are not real OTA students, but people who have ben compensated for their endorsements and may or may not be real traders. Decide for yourself.

The Forex training is pariticularly bad. In the class and on the CD-ROMS, the trainer indicates that one of the advantage of FOREX is that there are no downgrades like what happens to stocks? Come again? What about the downgrade the US got last spring and the one Greece is getting now? Who trains these guys?

The home study programs that they try to shove down your throat for as much as $695 a set is mostly outdated material taped back in 2005 or so and the quality is not that good. The DVD set that they claim is worth $5, 000 was filmed back in 2001 and probably not even worth $50. That is probably why they give t hem away so liberally at workshops.

A lot of noise is being made about an award that Sam Seiden got and those of us who know about Sam, know that he is an excellent trainer. However, the award came from one of Online Trading Academy's partners. Do I see a conflict of interest here? Is he really the best? Not if the trainer I saw in class was trained by him.

One more point, in the OTA informercial now airing all over, Sam Seiden is very comspicously conducting a training class that implies he is training students. However, according to OTA, Mr. Seiden does not conduct these kinds of classes to students, only trains OTA employees. Looks like deception to me. Wasn't there a guy name McCorkle who got busted for doing this same sort of thing?


Traders who have taken the class indicated that they were not making any money trading and only made money in class. Many have spent from $20, 000 to over $65, 000 on upgrades to other programs seeking more education but no results to speak of.

Suggest that you pass on this one. Besides, these companies come and go every couple of years or so. And regarding the reviews that appear here ahead of mine and are so glowingly positive, isn't it obvious that these were written by OTA employees???

[Honestman1351]

It was great to see such an in-depth review of the course and nice to see the follow-up post with results... Though I suspect anyone from the finance world would guess the results were at least somewhat predictable. I'd like at add a few comments - I worked at various brokerage firms as a trader for eight years and then successfully on my own (as a short term momentum trader) for four years. If I hadn't found more exciting ventures I would still be doing it...

The OP mentioned that 'if you don't have $5k to spare you shouldn't be in the stock market.' I've heard a similar argument made for other trading courses (FX especially). You need MUCH more than $5,000 to spare to justify spending $5,000 on a course. If you have $100k to invest you need to beat the index by more than 5% to make back your course costs in a year (a very difficult task). I had eight years of experience and I was still very content to beat the index by 5%-10% trading for myself. I would not expect similar results from a course regardless of how comprehensive the course material was.

In my opinion (and most professional traders share this opinion), you will get far more value putting the $5,000 into an account and trading with it. Set rules, do technical research, read books, keep stats and adjust. If you aren't motivated to do the research on your own then this is not the game for you. You should LOVE the charts. You should get excited about the trends. If it just seems like a means to an end then you will get bored and make mistakes. Maybe $5,000 is a small amount relative to your net worth but it is enough to start learning. Play money accounts are possible but it is a different game entirely once you start trading with real money (even a small amount). If you can't stick to your rules with $5,000 at risk you won't stick to your rules with $250,000 at risk either. $5,000 is plenty to test your self discipline (a lack of which is the downfall of many trader).

I've had this conversation with other people considering expensive courses to quickly master trading. They usually go ahead with the course anyways. I have yet to hear of anyone being successful. The get-rich-easy allure is too strong and means these courses will always have customers.

Also, people don't share the really good ideas. If you have great ideas then you keep them secret and end up making 2&20 managing a hedge fund. If you have good ideas you end up prop trading for a big bank. If you have decent ideas you might be an institutional broker and share your ideas with mutual fund managers. If you have average ideas you might be a broker to small investors. If you don't have ideas you might end up selling expensive trading courses. It's the pecking order of the finance industry.

I've had many people ask me about trading. I tell them to start reading about some trends and technical indicators and following some patterns. If it excites them, then they should keep reading and starting trading a very small amount. If they are not excited they should park their money in ETFs and forget about it. Trading will not work for you unless you love it.

Sorry to ramble on. Maybe someone finds this useful. If you are considering paying for a trading course please PM me and I'd be happy to discuss free education alternatives.





Hi There - I read this old post from you and thank you very much for your great information. Since then has any of your above idea changed at all? at the end you mentioned " If you are considering paying for a trading course please PM me and I'd be happy to discuss free education alternatives." so could you advise what and where should I start from. I'm reading a tech analysis book myself right now.
Thanks a lot
Regards
Adams

[rfdrfd]

Everything you've stated can be equally stated in the opposite manner. I have friends from OTA that are doing good and making steady money. OTA isn't about making you tens of thousands of dollars in each trades, its about consistent, steady profits. You've spoken to traders that have all lost money after taking the course. I will ask:

Did they follow all the OTA rules? 100%? I can guarantee they didn't. First, you have to do paper trades, until you stop losing money (net). Then you are allowed to go with real money. If they followed the most simple ones: Stop loss, each trade must be 3:1 risk/reward ratio, then there is 0% chance they lose more than they make. It is mathematically impossible.

As they taught us, there are 3 main stages: (1) stop losing money (2) break even (3) start profiting. Going from (1) to (2) can take months or years. Depending on how much time and effort you put into it. As well as how much knowledge and if you follow ALL their rules 100%. It is extremely easy to break a rule. I'm in my 3rd yer after taking the beginner course and I still break some of the rules.

"The classes themselves are very generalized information, hardly worth the price they charge. The retake is a joke, "

Have you actually taken this course? If you have, you wouldn't be saying this. I have, 3 times and I have learned huge amounts of info each time. Absolutely not generalized. I have over 30 pages of notes on top of their 2 thick textbooks. Retake is a joke? From what basis are you saying this?

Re-take is amazing. You will NOT understand everything after 1 take of it. Their learning plan even specifies you must re-take it at least 2 times in total first, then you move onto the next thing: XLT. Then you are ready to start trading stocks. And each time you re-take the course for free, the market climate has changed. My first time was AFTER the 2008 crash. The next time was during the Europe crisis. The last time was after the Euro crisis. It is invaluable to be able to ask a live teacher why this is happening, or how or what should we do about it.

A book can never give you any answers and it is NEVER timely.

I am definitely not an OTA employee, I will not get ANY of my tuition back if you go or not, so I don't need to promote them or anything. I'm just here to give you my take on it as I've taken their courses and here's my review on it. I've already made at least $5000 after taking their intro course, but I have also paid and joined their life-time XLT online sessions. I have over 50 word docs of notes from these sessions. No lies. Each document is full of useful info for me to learn and use in trading.

Anyone that says the Toronto OTA instruction or instructors are bad or a scam is simply lying. They haven't taken it, or have taken it and don't understand the methods yet (hence not following rules) and aren't talking with their brains.






http://www.complaintboard.com/online-trading-academy-l199.html

I don't know if I would call them a blatant scam, but they do overpromise and under deliver. The workshops are a blatant sales pitch sort of like going to an Amway meeting, only worse. A lot of hype. No real meat. Just a lot of bologna. Mostly style with very little substance.

Traders I spoke with at the center said they were all losing money. One indicated that he was barely breaking even after retaking classes numerous times for about a year and spending over $20, 000 in courses on upsells.

The classes themselves are very generalized information, hardly worth the price they charge. The retake is a joke, much like the old Glenn W. Turner "Dare To Be Great" motivational courses which also offered lifetime retakes but the company kept getting shut down and you had to enroll all over again. So my question to OTA is, what is lifetime?

Online Trading Academy would do PT Barnum proud and as for the people who bought into this so called "academy" PT Barnum was right, "a sucker is born every minute."

Online Trading Academy has been around for about 20 years. It has had many name changes since it started as Momentum Securities, then Block Trading, then Newport Beach Securities and finally Online Trading Academy. Why all the name changes?

The classes are very expensive starting at $5, 000 but they will attempt to upsell you to a $65, 000 program and tell you that you are getting a bargain.

Trainers overall are so, so. Not that great and not worth the price they charge.

OTA is now aggressively pushing informercials much like Teach Me To Trade and so many other get rich quick schemes that have dissappeared. It has been assumed that the people appearing in said informercials are not real OTA students, but people who have ben compensated for their endorsements and may or may not be real traders. Decide for yourself.

The Forex training is pariticularly bad. In the class and on the CD-ROMS, the trainer indicates that one of the advantage of FOREX is that there are no downgrades like what happens to stocks? Come again? What about the downgrade the US got last spring and the one Greece is getting now? Who trains these guys?

The home study programs that they try to shove down your throat for as much as $695 a set is mostly outdated material taped back in 2005 or so and the quality is not that good. The DVD set that they claim is worth $5, 000 was filmed back in 2001 and probably not even worth $50. That is probably why they give t hem away so liberally at workshops.

A lot of noise is being made about an award that Sam Seiden got and those of us who know about Sam, know that he is an excellent trainer. However, the award came from one of Online Trading Academy's partners. Do I see a conflict of interest here? Is he really the best? Not if the trainer I saw in class was trained by him.

One more point, in the OTA informercial now airing all over, Sam Seiden is very comspicously conducting a training class that implies he is training students. However, according to OTA, Mr. Seiden does not conduct these kinds of classes to students, only trains OTA employees. Looks like deception to me. Wasn't there a guy name McCorkle who got busted for doing this same sort of thing?


Traders who have taken the class indicated that they were not making any money trading and only made money in class. Many have spent from $20, 000 to over $65, 000 on upgrades to other programs seeking more education but no results to speak of.

Suggest that you pass on this one. Besides, these companies come and go every couple of years or so. And regarding the reviews that appear here ahead of mine and are so glowingly positive, isn't it obvious that these were written by OTA employees???

[TripleHelix]

Everything you've stated can be equally stated in the opposite manner. I have friends from OTA that are doing good and making steady money. OTA isn't about making you tens of thousands of dollars in each trades, its about consistent, steady profits. You've spoken to traders that have all lost money after taking the course. I will ask:

Did they follow all the OTA rules? 100%? I can guarantee they didn't. First, you have to do paper trades, until you stop losing money (net). Then you are allowed to go with real money. If they followed the most simple ones: Stop loss, each trade must be 3:1 risk/reward ratio, then there is 0% chance they lose more than they make. It is mathematically impossible.

As they taught us, there are 3 main stages: (1) stop losing money (2) break even (3) start profiting. Going from (1) to (2) can take months or years. Depending on how much time and effort you put into it. As well as how much knowledge and if you follow ALL their rules 100%. It is extremely easy to break a rule. I'm in my 3rd yer after taking the beginner course and I still break some of the rules.

"The classes themselves are very generalized information, hardly worth the price they charge. The retake is a joke, "

Have you actually taken this course? If you have, you wouldn't be saying this. I have, 3 times and I have learned huge amounts of info each time. Absolutely not generalized. I have over 30 pages of notes on top of their 2 thick textbooks. Retake is a joke? From what basis are you saying this?

Re-take is amazing. You will NOT understand everything after 1 take of it. Their learning plan even specifies you must re-take it at least 2 times in total first, then you move onto the next thing: XLT. Then you are ready to start trading stocks. And each time you re-take the course for free, the market climate has changed. My first time was AFTER the 2008 crash. The next time was during the Europe crisis. The last time was after the Euro crisis. It is invaluable to be able to ask a live teacher why this is happening, or how or what should we do about it.

A book can never give you any answers and it is NEVER timely.

I am definitely not an OTA employee, I will not get ANY of my tuition back if you go or not, so I don't need to promote them or anything. I'm just here to give you my take on it as I've taken their courses and here's my review on it. I've already made at least $5000 after taking their intro course, but I have also paid and joined their life-time XLT online sessions. I have over 50 word docs of notes from these sessions. No lies. Each document is full of useful info for me to learn and use in trading.

Anyone that says the Toronto OTA instruction or instructors are bad or a scam is simply lying. They haven't taken it, or have taken it and don't understand the methods yet (hence not following rules) and aren't talking with their brains.

And this is why, ladies and gentleman, rfdrfd should be barred from posting anything promoting OTA. Or be banned.

[rfdrfd]

And this is why, ladies and gentleman, rfdrfd should be barred from posting anything promoting OTA. Or be banned.

Sure, sure, when someone actually is profitable and shows you actual real trading methods that goes against your grain, just ban them here. If all of you are so good at investing, you really think you'd be coming to a deals website looking for investing ideas?

This thread is a review on a certain school/product. Is it no different than any other thread here. If it sucked, I will say it sucked. If it doesn't suck, I will say it didn't suck. Plain and simple.

Shows how closed mined you are as a person.

[jedi1648]

Everything you've stated can be equally stated in the opposite manner. I have friends from OTA that are doing good and making steady money. OTA isn't about making you tens of thousands of dollars in each trades, its about consistent, steady profits. You've spoken to traders that have all lost money after taking the course. I will ask:

Did they follow all the OTA rules? 100%? I can guarantee they didn't. First, you have to do paper trades, until you stop losing money (net). Then you are allowed to go with real money. If they followed the most simple ones: Stop loss, each trade must be 3:1 risk/reward ratio, then there is 0% chance they lose more than they make. It is mathematically impossible.

As they taught us, there are 3 main stages: (1) stop losing money (2) break even (3) start profiting. Going from (1) to (2) can take months or years. Depending on how much time and effort you put into it. As well as how much knowledge and if you follow ALL their rules 100%. It is extremely easy to break a rule. I'm in my 3rd yer after taking the beginner course and I still break some of the rules.

"The classes themselves are very generalized information, hardly worth the price they charge. The retake is a joke, "

Have you actually taken this course? If you have, you wouldn't be saying this. I have, 3 times and I have learned huge amounts of info each time. Absolutely not generalized. I have over 30 pages of notes on top of their 2 thick textbooks. Retake is a joke? From what basis are you saying this?

Re-take is amazing. You will NOT understand everything after 1 take of it. Their learning plan even specifies you must re-take it at least 2 times in total first, then you move onto the next thing: XLT. Then you are ready to start trading stocks. And each time you re-take the course for free, the market climate has changed. My first time was AFTER the 2008 crash. The next time was during the Europe crisis. The last time was after the Euro crisis. It is invaluable to be able to ask a live teacher why this is happening, or how or what should we do about it.

A book can never give you any answers and it is NEVER timely.

I am definitely not an OTA employee, I will not get ANY of my tuition back if you go or not, so I don't need to promote them or anything. I'm just here to give you my take on it as I've taken their courses and here's my review on it. I've already made at least $5000 after taking their intro course, but I have also paid and joined their life-time XLT online sessions. I have over 50 word docs of notes from these sessions. No lies. Each document is full of useful info for me to learn and use in trading.

Anyone that says the Toronto OTA instruction or instructors are bad or a scam is simply lying. They haven't taken it, or have taken it and don't understand the methods yet (hence not following rules) and aren't talking with their brains.


I didnt make those statements and these statements appear to have made by an OTA former student or an insider. See the link provided up there. Your enthusiastic write-ups in this forum about OTA promted my curiosity about it, and dug deeper into its operations with the help of google. A balance view is necessary, and a prospective OTA student should be aware of these negatives before enrolling into the program per your write-ups.

You have only made some $5000 since 2008, after paying $5000 for the introduction course, presumably including your recent luck with the Netflix shares?! This reminds me of a proud father posting in this forum about his 15 yr old son, who had no clue about the stock markets and who didnt pay $5000 to OTA, making a 14% gain of his stock picks. The stock market has been very forgiving lately, steadily rising since last May and surging in the last month, and most people have been making money, and some lots of it.

The OTA is a franchise operation, like the McDonalds Restaurants, with franchisees in many countries including Canada, USA and UK, and their the course materials and teaching are the same or very similar. Here are some negative reviews (scam, etc) of some former OTA students:

darmin, surrey, Canada
Review: They're "trading" 3,000 shares at a time so the little 15 cent moves they capture in their Pro Picks amount to something. Or not. Most of them don't work.

David, USA
Review: do not take the high ratings seriously here. OTA is a scam organization that uses an army of shill reviewers to put up giood reviews about themselves, from YouTube, to "review" sites on the web, and other places.
Their stuff does not work, and this is well known among traders who have attended their "seminars"
A good review is either from a newbie who fell for their pitch, or it is a company worker. Such as the last few.

Dan , North Carolina
Review: Online Trading Academy is a complete scam. I took a class just over a year ago. I've also taken refresher classes since then. The instructors explained the technicals and I understand that, but that's only 50% of the equation. The other 50% is the news. They only told me about the first 50%. You're sitting in this class room and they are wanting you to force a positive trade within a 30 minute time frame that they assign. OTA gives daily stock picks to their students or should I say suckers. They tell you what to buy/sell, when to get in, when to get out, and where to place your stops. Almost all of their stock picks are so far from hitting their target entry that I haven't even bothered to look at them in months. I no reason to look at them ever again. When looking at their stock picks, on the same page there is a column stating the trades they entered into or not and how much money they made or lost on each trade. There is also a running total of how much they made or lost year to date. According to their numbers, they are making between 3,000 and 5,000 dollars a month after averaging in their small losses. This is complete and total BS. Whose to say their trades entered into or not, are not fictitiously made after the fact ? DUH (The trade was never taken) This is not a live event, but they do have have this thing called XLT which is a live event. All you have to do is give them another 5,000 or 10,000 dollars to join. However, there is no way to investigate this XLT before you sign up. You cannot check out their previous track record. I do not have this, but I'm sure it works like charm.

Phil, Orange County, California
Review: BAD NEWS - Over 20 of us in their class which cost each of us $5,000.00. During the class the instructor could not make a winning trade if his life depended on it, not one winning trade. I doubt anyone ever made a dime with what was taught, in fact everyone probably lost even more money, on top of the over priced cost of the class. OTA are SLICK salesmen and are simply looking to make a buck off of everyone and also make money off students trades as introducing brokers, etc. Very disappointing! Sick to my stomach over what the class cost me. What a mistake! I'm still kicking myself!

j d, uk
Review: I payed the full wack and it has been WORST investment i have ever made. they have trades made by their pro traders, and they can not get 20pips a week!!!!dont waste your money. what they offer is freely available on line. they will cause you anger, which is the worst thing for you when you trade.

A FORMER OTA STUDENT IN UK (statement in Trade2Win stock discussion forum)
I have spent about £9k with OTA and got nowhere basically over the last 12 months, and there are many others like me i can assure you. They are either still trading Sim accounts or $1 per pip, neither of which will generate a full time income. I have paid my money so i am entitled to my say, IMHO:

-they are always upselling another course or XLT
-they dropped the grads network afternoons as i guess it wasn't profitable
-they replaced it with some sort of once monthly free seminar which is just upselling again
-its all packaging with no content
-free retakes are because they cant fill the courses with paid customers, or they cant communicate it the first time
-they give you the tools but not how to use them precisely and effectively
-they are expensive, you can get the same for 10% of the cost or free with a UK broker
-the tutors are so busy doing courses and XLT webinars when do they trade?
-teaching is obviously more proftable than trading
-look up Sam Seiden or Steve Misic here or on FXstreet.com and they are essentially giving away the main forex couse structure for free, so why pay for it?

[TripleHelix]

Sure, sure, when someone actually is profitable and shows you actual real trading methods that goes against your grain, just ban them here. If all of you are so good at investing, you really think you'd be coming to a deals website looking for investing ideas?

This thread is a review on a certain school/product. Is it no different than any other thread here. If it sucked, I will say it sucked. If it doesn't suck, I will say it didn't suck. Plain and simple.

Shows how closed mined you are as a person.

You cannot claim that it is impossible to lose more than what you make using the OTA system. If you truly believe that, then they are really good at brainwashing people.

[red_skittles]

-teaching is obviously more proftable than trading


This is what gets me. If the teachers have the decades of trading experience and are so good at making money then why are they teaching? Yes, some people do enjoying teaching and passing on their knowledge but teaching someone physics and teaching some one an investing system are two very different things. They are teaching the patterns, so the instructors actually have no reason what so ever to share that information. Once trading on these patterns become widespread, the patterns will not work. And if the patterns stop working, they have nothing to teach. If I could tell you with any sort of certainty that stocks that close with with a price that is a prime number will jump >2% at open the next day and that it is mathematically impossible for you to lose money trading on this system, as more poeple know it, the less power it has. So why would I reveal this information, much less start a trading school and tell everyone.

[elty]

They are teaching the patterns, so the instructors actually have no reason what so ever to share that information. Once trading on these patterns become widespread, the patterns will not work. And if the patterns stop working, they have nothing to teach.

Well I don't think it will just stop working as easily as you said. First of all even if they charge nothing I bet most people still won't take the course because they don't know, think it is a scam or don't want to bother. Secondly, I bet a bunch of those "students" doesn't know how to apply what they learn. A few million dollar in a stock market can affect nothing.

Still, I won't (and can't afford to) attend a $6000 class unless I win the lottery, but then I guess I don't need to at that point.

[McPaul]

Um, I thought it wasn't cool to advertise someone's crappy ***** around here?

[rfdrfd]

Couldn't find where I posted it before, so I'll post a reply to that here. A few months ago, I told you my OTA teacher Dale S. said he was helping Questrade with creating the bracket ordering method for stocks, along with on chart ordering. Then teacher told us, Questrade decided to improve Options trading first, then do the stocks improvement. For Options platform in Questrade, you couldn't do spreads, or complex option strategies online, you'd have to phone them and place the order. Very silly.

Just got an email from Questrade (I'm sure all QT clients got this email): With Questrade IQ, you have more options. Multi-leg options strategies can be an important part of your investment mix. In a few weeks, we’ll be releasing a number of new features in the IQ trading platforms, including multi-leg options strategies in IQ Edge and IQ Web (we’ll have 17 available)."


So there we are, my teacher did not lie. Hope QTrade finishes the upgrade to stocks as well. Thank god. Finally.

[rfdrfd]

Um, I thought it wasn't cool to advertise someone's crappy ***** around here?

Didn't see your comment until now, so here's my reply:

1) this is a review thread, so if it is bad, reviewer would bash it. But if it is good, reviewer would recommend it no? I'm a graduate from it and can honestly tell you with proof that their teachings and courses are real and good. People who bash it here have never been to the one in Toronto. I have 7 close friends that went, each one of them would tell you the same. And of course thousands of OTA graduates also would agree. Yes, I have seen thousands because they are online with the XLT sessions. Everything I speak of, I have proof of.

2) yes, you are correct, this forum frowns on promoting companies and such, which is very biased because RFD doesn't frown on threads bashing and trashing companies. Ironic isn't it?

[Rickson9]

Just read this thread now. Thanks for the overview OP! Cool description of your experiences!