[Merged] The Butchers AKA Marlon Meats Organic Meat - Feedback/Discussion

[Blitzo]

If anyone got in on this deal, I pitty you as much as I pitty us. :mad:

Bought 2x$40 coupons (worth "$100" each in the shop which has extremely overinflated prices for coupon holders - they probably multiply all coupon holder's price per lb by 4x).

My wife and I visited there 2 weekends ago and they had barely anything in stock at 2 PM on a Saturday.

What we did manage to buy was a COMPLETE RIPPOFF!!!!

3 duck breasts, frozen in vacuum bags, about $38 taxes in. We roasted them and they were barely enough for a meal for two, not to mention DRY and tastless (my wife is a chef, these breasts were half the size of a chicken breast you would normally buy in a store). You could get a better deal at a restaurant!!!

We also bought some organic bacon and sausages... Thats all they had! We ended up spending about $80 on these garbage remains. If we were to buy at a local organic butcher it would have cost us 1/4 the price. And we would have had more selection.
This was really not a hot deal nor a decent group buy by far in my opinion!

Here's the website you need to see to stay away from: http://www.thebutchersorganic.com

Just thought I'd share this with you guys incase a "deal" like this comes to fruition again. DON'T DO IT.

EDIT: The store name (business) is being changed to Marlon Meats and is currently closed until who knows when for renovations.

[YLSF]

This would be better suited in the Shopping discussion forum or elsewhere. Hope it just gets moved and not deleted.

I bought a voucher too but haven't used it. Maybe for your 2nd voucher you can call and pre-arrange to have something ready for pickup. Try to get pricing before they asked if you bought a voucher...

[Blitzo]

This would be better suited in the Shopping discussion forum or elsewhere. Hope it just gets moved and not deleted.

I bought a voucher too but haven't used it. Maybe for your 2nd voucher you can call and pre-arrange to have something ready for pickup. Try to get pricing before they asked if you bought a voucher...

Good point. Just thought I'd post it here since this is where the deal originated and most people familiar with this "deal" would look here...

We will be calling ahead to have some items held for us for pickup next time. And yes, I'd like to see if their prices become more "sane" when we call. Not happy so far though.

I'll letcha know!

[i3_dawg]

Totally feeling you OP! I purchased a 4kg boneless leg of lamb and 2 beef steaks cost me 108.xx$ i had to 8.xx$ extra. Definitely a rip-off, I've never purchased any meat in my life that is this expensive before. The steaks cost 26$ a pound. i was like WTF!! never going back.


If anyone got in on this deal, I pitty you as much as I pitty us. :mad:

Bought 2x$40 coupons (worth "$100" each in the shop which has extremely overinflated prices for coupon holders - they probably multiply all coupon holder's price per lb by 4x).

My wife and I visited there 2 weekends ago and they had barely anything in stock at 2 PM on a Saturday.

What we did manage to buy was a COMPLETE RIPPOFF!!!!

3 duck breasts, frozen in vacuum bags, about $38 taxes in. We roasted them and they were barely enough for a meal for two, not to mention DRY and tastless (my wife is a chef, these breasts were half the size of a chicken breast you would normally buy in a store). You could get a better deal at a restaurant!!!

We also bought some organic bacon and sausages... Thats all they had! We ended up spending about $80 on these garbage remains. If we were to buy at a local organic butcher it would have cost us 1/4 the price. And we would have had more selection.
This was really not a hot deal nor a decent group buy by far in my opinion!

Here's the website you need to see to stay away from: http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/bio_marlon.html

Just thought I'd share this with you guys incase a "deal" like this comes to fruition again. DON'T DO IT.

[i-o_o-i]

I went a couple weekends ago, they were fairly low on stock, they didn't make us use the entire $100 of the coupon, we ended up buying two NY strips and two turkey sausages, I think I'm left with $40 something on my coupon, the steaks and sausages tasted great...their prices are very expensive, but at 60% off (with this coupon), can't really complain...

[Raead]

I walked by there once and their price is ridiculously inflated, roughly 350% more then what you can get at you normal butcher store

I guess the inflation is on their "Organical" and "Natural"...?

What does natural meat even means anyways? I don't remember seeing any fake cows or robotic cows... so saying it's "natural" meat means nothing in a butcher shop :facepalm:

[Rehan]

I guess the inflation is on their "Organical" and "Natural"...?

What does natural meat even means anyways? I don't remember seeing any fake cows or robotic cows... so saying it's "natural" meat means nothing in a butcher shop :facepalm: "Natural" usually means free of hormones and antibiotics. But it's not a regulated marketing term, so anybody can use or abuse it as they wish.

I buy my meat from an organic & natural butcher in Mississauga and the prices are nowhere near the non-coupon prices mentioned by the OP, although it is 2x or 3x the price of grocery store meat.

[milhaus]

Sorry, but this is because you didn't bother to educate yourself on what "organic" and "natural" involves, and what the costs are beforehand. The store did not rip you off. They gave you exactly what was stated on the coupon; they didn't raise prices artificially, or charge a different price for coupon holders. Some people are willing to pay for organic and natural; if you're not, you shouldn't have purchased the coupon.

2 - 3x times the cost of regular store meat is approx. what it costs The Butchers. A $9.99/lb cut of steak is probably going to be $26/lb here. I don't often buy from here, but when I have, the meat has always been excellent. Worth 2-3x the cost? Maybe not, but at $40 for $100, yes definitely.

[ipassgas]

Place is a complete rip off, but for the $40 voucher (plus $1.08 extra), I got, 3/4 lbs lean ground beef, 1 rack of lamb, 1 good sized new york strip steak, 1 veal chop and 1 polish sausage. Meat is nicely trimmed. The 1 sausage was $5.50!!!!! The rack of lamb was $40!!!

At full price, this place is ridiculous. For 40 cents on the dollar, it is OK.
The meat tasted better than supermarket, but not nearly as good as costco.

[fuddleduddle]

Organic and natural meats will certainly have a premium. The prices you got for your items seem to be on the higher end of the range or more. I was going to jump on this earlier but then thought it was probably too good to be true. 60% is too much of a discount on these sort of products as it really would cut into the margins. So I'm not surprised if they took the opportunity to temporarily inflate the prices. So many of these were sold, so maybe they were cleared out early of products.

If any of you are still holding onto these coupons, I suggest you wait it out until they fully restock. If they really did inflate prices for this deal, then they will have to lower them when the frenzy stops.

[canguy9999]

Place is a complete rip off, but for the $40 voucher (plus $1.08 extra), I got, 3/4 lbs lean ground beef, 1 rack of lamb, 1 good sized new york strip steak, 1 veal chop and 1 polish sausage. Meat is nicely trimmed. The 1 sausage was $5.50!!!!! The rack of lamb was $40!!!

At full price, this place is ridiculous. For 40 cents on the dollar, it is OK.
The meat tasted better than supermarket, but not nearly as good as costco.

How big was your rack of lamb? I picked up a small rack but enough to feed 2-3 people for $23ish.

I found them to be very reasonable especially when taking into consideration the discount. Normal full price, I'd only purchase from them very periodically for special meals.

But I got a 2.5lb beef tenderloin, a rack of lamb, a few sausages and something else that I can't think of right now for $105-110.

I do dislike how they don't have any prices posted, but they do have good service and will answer any questions you have when you go in.

[McDealer]

The quality is higher, the prices are higher. If you ordinarily buy at a grocery store and are price-sensitive (of course you are, this is RFD) then their prices will seem outrageous. There is a market segment that definitely appreciates the premium. That customer segment is pretty much the opposite of the typical Groupon/RFD customer.

But the problem you encountered, is that they were sold out of most things. Of course they were, they did a group buy deal.

The biggest issue here is the underlying stupidity of the whole group-buy fad. Yet another retailer sold way more coupons than they can actually fulfill. The discount means they end up losing money, the volume means they piss off a huge number of potential customers. Result: angry customers, angry retailer. Happy group buy company, for now.

These stupid group buys depend on consumers who enjoy the new and exciting rush of the group buy, and retailers who can be fooled into thinking it is an effective promotional tool. The trouble is, both retailers and customers are realizing the whole thing is a FAIL and the business model relies on finding a dwindling supply of people who still think it's exciting.

Anyone who signed up for these group buy sites a year ago has already stopped reading the emails. It's just not worth it.

I expect Groupon will go public and the founders will cash out for a gajillion dollars before the stupid investing public figure this out.

Sorry for the rant. Gotta go see how my Krispy Kreme and Crocs investments are doing.

[canguy9999]

Organic and natural meats will certainly have a premium. The prices you got for your items seem to be on the higher end of the range or more. I was going to jump on this earlier but then thought it was probably too good to be true. 60% is too much of a discount on these sort of products as it really would cut into the margins. So I'm not surprised if they took the opportunity to temporarily inflate the prices. So many of these were sold, so maybe they were cleared out early of products.

If any of you are still holding onto these coupons, I suggest you wait it out until they fully restock. If they really did inflate prices for this deal, then they will have to lower them when the frenzy stops.

My guess is the issue is also that people casually go in on the weekend. If you show up Saturday afternoon, I wouldn't expect much. Just like going to the St.Lawrance market, try buy some good bread or sausages in the afternoon.

I went in on a Friday afternoon, no one in the store, tons of products available, prices seemed very reasonable to me.

[devilsknight]

I think it's just really sad that "Organic" meat was just meat 25 years ago. What was wrong with "free range" before ?! Wasn't all this crap that makes "organic" meat expensive the way things used to be done forever and requires actually less work and maintenance ?! How the industry has forced such change to flip the process to what it is now.

[jsywong]

I think it's just really sad that "Organic" meat was just meat 25 years ago. What was wrong with "free range" before ?! Wasn't all this crap that makes "organic" meat expensive the way things used to be done forever and requires actually less work and maintenance ?! How the industry has forced such change to flip the process to what it is now.

Actually, with hormones and other stuff, current way of raising stock meat is much faster and requires less maintenance. All the advancement we see in the last 25years is to improve on how fast we can raise the cow before turning them into meat.

Here is a short page on difference specifically on organic vs normal cows.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/150008-organic-beef-vs-traditional-beef/

[Blitzo]

Sorry, but this is because you didn't bother to educate yourself on what "organic" and "natural" involves, and what the costs are beforehand. The store did not rip you off. They gave you exactly what was stated on the coupon; they didn't raise prices artificially, or charge a different price for coupon holders. Some people are willing to pay for organic and natural; if you're not, you shouldn't have purchased the coupon.

2 - 3x times the cost of regular store meat is approx. what it costs The Butchers. A $9.99/lb cut of steak is probably going to be $26/lb here. I don't often buy from here, but when I have, the meat has always been excellent. Worth 2-3x the cost? Maybe not, but at $40 for $100, yes definitely.

We buy organic meat regularly in Cambridge at a local farm. I can honestly say when comparing their prices on similar meat products the prices at the butchers are anywhere 2x-3x more expensive based on their "group buy pricing".

We bought a WHOLE duck last weekend for $15 (organic). Now compare that to 3 duck breasts at $35 from the butchers. I could have bought 2 whole ducks and still save $5 compared to the butcher's. To me that proves the prices they sell at are over-inflated for the group buy coupons.

Taking into conderation 60% off the price I paid, thats still $14 for 3 duck breasts (~$5 a breast). Thats more realistic, but still overpriced imo for a group buy deal.

[Coolers]

I think it's just really sad that "Organic" meat was just meat 25 years ago. What was wrong with "free range" before ?! Wasn't all this crap that makes "organic" meat expensive the way things used to be done forever and requires actually less work and maintenance ?! How the industry has forced such change to flip the process to what it is now.

Food is a lot cheaper than it used to be; feel free to look up statistics on the value of food as a percentage of the average salary. Organic food generally requires more time and more space, both of which are a lot more expensive than hormone injections.


We buy organic meat regularly in Cambridge at a local farm. I can honestly say when comparing their prices on similar meat products the prices at the butchers are anywhere 2x-3x more expensive based on their "group buy pricing".

We bought a WHOLE duck last weekend for $15 (organic). Now compare that to 3 duck breasts at $35 from the butchers. I could have bought 2 whole ducks and still save $5 compared to the butcher's. To me that proves the prices they sell at are over-inflated for the group buy coupons.

Taking into conderation 60% off the price I paid, thats still $14 for 3 duck breasts (~$5 a breast). Thats more realistic, but still overpriced imo for a group buy deal.

You're comparing your butcher's pricing (with a minimum of two additional layers of distribution) with buying direct from your local farm? :rolleyes:

That said, care to share the name of the farm? $15 for a whole duck sounds great :D

[i-o_o-i]

We buy organic meat regularly in Cambridge at a local farm. I can honestly say when comparing their prices on similar meat products the prices at the butchers are anywhere 2x-3x more expensive based on their "group buy pricing".

We bought a WHOLE duck last weekend for $15 (organic). Now compare that to 3 duck breasts at $35 from the butchers. I could have bought 2 whole ducks and still save $5 compared to the butcher's. To me that proves the prices they sell at are over-inflated for the group buy coupons.

Taking into conderation 60% off the price I paid, thats still $14 for 3 duck breasts (~$5 a breast). Thats more realistic, but still overpriced imo for a group buy deal.
They definitely do not inflate the prices for group buy coupons, someone in front of me bought the same cut of steak as what I bought with cash and it was the same price per pound...

[ipassgas]

$5.50 for a sausage!!!! It was ok but still just a saussage..... and yes, the rack of lamb was $39.96, the new york strip steak was $23.38.... it was a decent size, but that's what I pay for 3 similar sized ones in a package at costco --- and costco's is much better.....

I give that place 3 months.... tops..... They may have had a brief cash infusion from all the group buy sales, but If I were you, I'd use up those group buy coupons.... and fast!!!! They may well become scrap pieces of paper if you don't use them quickly. I can't imagine even an uptown butcher in a posh neighbourhood lasting too long with prices like that.

Good luck to them if they can make it fly.

[Coolers]

but that's what I pay for 3 similar sized ones in a package at costco --- and costco's is much better.....

The problem here is not with the vendor, but with people diving head-first into a group deal without thinking. The fact is, their prices are not unreasonable given their location and their choice to source products organically. Most of the complaints in this thread are from people complaining that organic meats costs double or triple regular meats - a situation which is not unique to this butcher.

[blizzah]

All organic (like) butchers charge similar prices to this place.

It's like comparing a BMW to a chevy and complaining that its more expensive to buy the BMW.

[milhaus]

I give that place 3 months.... tops..... They may have had a brief cash infusion from all the group buy sales, but If I were you, I'd use up those group buy coupons.... and fast!!!! They may well become scrap pieces of paper if you don't use them quickly. I can't imagine even an uptown butcher in a posh neighbourhood lasting too long with prices like that. Except that they've been there since 2001. I guess that shows what you know.

[AAA]

Hi,

For those who visited this store recently, do you see bison meat or any game meat available? So Saturday afternoon is not a good time to go, how about Friday evening?? Do they post prices in store or do you have to ask the price for each item?

[canguy9999]

Hi,

For those who visited this store recently, do you see bison meat or any game meat available? So Saturday afternoon is not a good time to go, how about Friday evening?? Do they post prices in store or do you have to ask the price for each item?


You have to ask about pricing and you'll also have to ask about game, rare meats and rare cuts, they don't have a lot of this on display.

I don't know about Friday evenings, I just know during the week, especially anytime in the middle of the day the place is pretty slow and they have lots of stock. I go during my lunch time.

Even on slow days they might not have specifically what you are looking for depending on when they had that product delivered, but they should still have a good variety during the week.

[Bookpreviews]

Totally feeling you OP! I purchased a 4kg boneless leg of lamb and 2 beef steaks cost me 108.xx$ i had to 8.xx$ extra. Definitely a rip-off, I've never purchased any meat in my life that is this expensive before. The steaks cost 26$ a pound. i was like WTF!! never going back.

Their prices seem ok for organic meats.
I posted earlier asking if a local chicken was very high priced here.

In my city a local chicken farm/vendor sells chicken and chicken sausages and a chicken is around $25 and frozen.
For chicken sausages that are locally made and grain fed I pay $10 +15%...so around $12 I'll say.

Bacon is $22a kg for the organic bacon I buy.

If you eat a lot of meat I could see this being a problem,but I eat meat every second day maybe.

If anyone is curious of prices for organic or natural meats, the farmers market I order from (yup...it is sort of a online market :)
they have their prices for vendors online and you do not even need to register to see prices or products (you need to register to order and to see availability only).
might be helpful for price comparison?

http://marcheoutaouais.com/MSR/VISITEUR/CADRE/cadre_principal.php

just click on the vendors name to see prices,there are descriptions too...

[Bookpreviews]

You have to ask about pricing and you'll also have to ask about game, rare meats and rare cuts, they don't have a lot of this on display.

I don't know about Friday evenings, I just know during the week, especially anytime in the middle of the day the place is pretty slow and they have lots of stock. I go during my lunch time.

Even on slow days they might not have specifically what you are looking for depending on when they had that product delivered, but they should still have a good variety during the week.

Is Bison meat that rare?
There is a Bison farm sort of near me and you can actually go visit the farm in the winter and get a horse or tractor ride to see the Bisons up close!

I have only sampled Bison meat and it seemed good.
not really my thing though.

[canguy9999]

Is Bison meat that rare?
There is a Bison farm sort of near me and you can actually go visit the farm in the winter and get a horse or tractor ride to see the Bisons up close!

I have only sampled Bison meat and it seemed good.
not really my thing though.

Rare in the four-leaf clover sense...no. Rare as in most butchers, especially main stream don't carry it, yes.

[ipassgas]

Is Bison meat that rare?


That depends.... if you cook if for long enough you can make it well done... personally, I prefer mine medium.:)

[AAA]

You have to ask about pricing and you'll also have to ask about game, rare meats and rare cuts, they don't have a lot of this on display.

I don't know about Friday evenings, I just know during the week, especially anytime in the middle of the day the place is pretty slow and they have lots of stock. I go during my lunch time.

Even on slow days they might not have specifically what you are looking for depending on when they had that product delivered, but they should still have a good variety during the week.

It sounds like I will never be able to redeem my certificate :(
Does this butcher charge different people with different prices? I think that's how this thread started?

Yes, bison meat is not easy to get, at least not to my knowledge.
Bookpreviews, where is your bison farm? Do they have a website?

[canguy9999]

It sounds like I will never be able to redeem my certificate :(
Does this butcher charge different people with different prices? I think that's how this thread started?

Yes, bison meat is not easy to get, at least not to my knowledge.
Bookpreviews, where is your bison farm? Do they have a website?

You can easily go on weekends or other times, just from my experience the place has great stock during the day and Saturdays you have to go early to get popular items.

[buddhababy]

I was with a friend one day when she bought two little lamb chops from an organic butcher at a farmers market - it cost something like $15 or $17, couldn't possibly have weighed more than half a pound, was wrapped in butcher paper which they did not open to show her the chops, just said here's two really nice ones and the package was about as big as her hand. She didn't even blink at the price whereas I was struck speechless.

At another farmers market, I visited two organic butchers and the prices were again, to me, out of this world. I can't even remember the prices now they were so shocking to my RFD heart I completely blocked them out of my memory.

I bought this deal (which is on again today at yet another group deal site, this is about the 5th or 5th group site they've been on in the last few months) and I fully expect to be completely shocked at how little I get for $100 but I am hoping that it will be worth, to my mind, the $40 I actually spent. My organic eating friend also bought the deal, I expect her to be thrilled.

On another note, I'm pretty sure Bison is pretty regularly stocked at St Lawrence market. There's one butcher there with all kinds of 'rare' meats, middle aisle, at the back end of the building.

[Bookpreviews]

Rare in the four-leaf clover sense...no. Rare as in most butchers, especially main stream don't carry it, yes.

I don't really go to butcher shops often,
lately I am buying my meats directly from the farmers themselves.
No idea if I am saving money,but do like the products I buy...so don't care too much what their pricing is.

There is a bison farmer near where I live, so did not think it was so hard to find.
Hopefully when the weather is better I will go see the live bisons :)

[mliongco]

A friend of mine in the Richmond Hill area told me about this place...."Organic Meat Express". Not so much a retail spot, but they do have pickup location in Richmond Hill. I think you have to order online and it gets delivered. Only catch is that they only delivery within the York Region. I'm not 100% sure, you'll have to check their website. I browsed through the prices. I regularly by the meat you find at the grocery store so obviously it's cheaper than what i'm seeing on their site. But, out of curiousity I might place and order and try it out. Seems like "organic" is the craze nowadays.......aside from eating healthy in general.

http://www.organicmeatexpress.com/

[Dakx]

I appreciate having this thread in this section, as I look at the group buys section but rarely the sections that complaints are meant for. Hell, we should make this a sticky...

[Bookpreviews]

A friend of mine in the Richmond Hill area told me about this place...."Organic Meat Express". Not so much a retail spot, but they do have pickup location in Richmond Hill. I think you have to order online and it gets delivered. Only catch is that they only delivery within the York Region. I'm not 100% sure, you'll have to check their website. I browsed through the prices. I regularly by the meat you find at the grocery store so obviously it's cheaper than what i'm seeing on their site. But, out of curiousity I might place and order and try it out. Seems like "organic" is the craze nowadays.......aside from eating healthy in general.

http://www.organicmeatexpress.com/

I kind of agree that it is a "Craze"
But for me one problem with regular cold cuts is they have preservatives with phosphates and other chemicals I do not tolerate well.
So because of that I was only eating bacon from one place and smoked chicken from the same store that does not use these things.

Now that I found some farmers and meat processors near me who are organic and/or all natural I can eat bacon,sausage,pepperoni and whatever without any problems every week :)

[goodman1]

I found this review on google:

Amy-
The Butchers 2636 Yonge Street, Toronto, ON M4P 2J5, Canada
- 24 Jan 2011
"We purchased a voucher that entitled us to $50 worth of meats at The Butchers. Marlon (owner) was very friendly but unfortunately overcharged us once he knew we had a voucher. He charged us $13.99/lb of pork shoulder. I asked for 2lbs and he gave us 5lbs. When I called as a new customer, he told me that a lb of shoulder pork is $6.99. He overcharged us because we had a voucher - very unprofessional in my opinion. Will definitely not be returning."

[canguy9999]

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-young-pricing-1003275/#post12413228

I started a threat to specifically cover pricing. Please post all prices you receive in the discussion above.

[angui]

Did anyone on RFD get in on this? Since they've closed their forum on the site. I'm wondering if anyone has had any feedback from this recent group deal especially in using their credit vouchers.

http://www.dealfind.com/toronto/thebutchers

[canguy9999]

Did anyone on RFD get in on this? Since they've closed their forum on the site. I'm wondering if anyone has had any feedback from this recent group deal especially in using their credit vouchers.

http://www.dealfind.com/toronto/thebutchers

Have yet to specifically use one of these certificates from dealfind. Have used other certificates from other deal sites for this butcher.

If you haven't read through it yet read through this forum http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-young-pricing-1003275/5/#post12509559

[Jdog75]

The coupon clearly states that is available for all products in store. They refused to let me use the coupon for packaged goods they sell from other companies i.e smoked salmon. They said it was for their meat. Coupon doesn't say that. The owner told me Dealfind made the mistake, which is not true as The Butchers has the responsibility to review the coupon. The owner got very angry and shouted at me. I wrote to dealfind and they contacted The Butchers and assured me I could use it for those products.

I went in this morning and the same staff and owner said I still couldn't use the coupon for those items. Tried to show them the emails, but he got angry again in front of the whole full store. Eventually he said if it was so important to me that I could have it. Felt super uncomfortable being there. Never been treated like that in a store before.

[kator]

yeah wow i just got off the phone with them. i talked to a very angry man. i had some concerns about my order (which took 2 weeks from the order date to come through, and then they forgot to give the delivery instructions to the driver so my order almost wasn't delivered) and the man spoke very angrily to me, not listening to anything i had to say and interrupting me when i tried to explain. he told me that i should be happy and and appreciative of such a good deal and blamed selling so many coupons for their problems.

i told him he seemed very angry and frustrated and before I could get another word in, he started lecturing me about what he THOUGHT i was complaining about (which was totally incorrect - perhaps if he had listened he wouldn'tve been so angry!) and I tried to explain again, at which point he told me the lady answering the emails was in a coma and had cancer, yet was still answering the emails (?!?!)

I told him I did not like how I was being treated and could I get a refund? He said yes and then as I was asking how, he hung up on me! So I called back again, he picked up laughing and I asked him how to get a refund and he said "take it up with the coupon people" and told me he would not serve a customer like me.

all i can say is wow. i thought the purpose of those deals was to get new customers. cuz i will never ever go back there.

[buddhababy]

Wow :arrowu:

Please let us know if you manage to get a refund.

[AcidBomber]

yeah wow i just got off the phone with them. i talked to a very angry man. i had some concerns about my order (which took 2 weeks from the order date to come through, and then they forgot to give the delivery instructions to the driver so my order almost wasn't delivered) and the man spoke very angrily to me, not listening to anything i had to say and interrupting me when i tried to explain. he told me that i should be happy and and appreciative of such a good deal and blamed selling so many coupons for their problems.

i told him he seemed very angry and frustrated and before I could get another word in, he started lecturing me about what he THOUGHT i was complaining about (which was totally incorrect - perhaps if he had listened he wouldn'tve been so angry!) and I tried to explain again, at which point he told me the lady answering the emails was in a coma and had cancer, yet was still answering the emails (?!?!)

I told him I did not like how I was being treated and could I get a refund? He said yes and then as I was asking how, he hung up on me! So I called back again, he picked up laughing and I asked him how to get a refund and he said "take it up with the coupon people" and told me he would not serve a customer like me.

all i can say is wow. i thought the purpose of those deals was to get new customers. cuz i will never ever go back there.

The business will not refund you.
Contact DealFind (support@dealfind.com or call 1.888.320.6368, Monday to Friday 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Eastern Standard Time.), they will refund your unused vouchers.

[kator]

The business will not refund you.
Contact DealFind (support@dealfind.com or call 1.888.320.6368, Monday to Friday 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Eastern Standard Time.), they will refund your unused vouchers.

thx, but i got it from webpiggy. i've emailed them so we'll see.

[ToChicka]

Wow! Not surprised reading all the NEGATIVE reviews and how the owner butchering the prices!!!

Toronto19 ‎ - 5 Mar 2011
The voucher is a SCAM. Pork tenderloin is $18.99/lb. All they had on display was two pork tenderloins and a few pork should chops. The also had two huge pork shoulders, but that was it. When they told me the price was $18.99/lb I asked if the pig was raised on acorns. For that price it should be iberico ham!
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Miss L ‎ - 13 Feb 2011
I also purchased a voucher $40 for 100$ worth of meats from livingsocial deals. Before I bought the deal, I went over to the The Butchers to buy some meat and ask for prices, which were written down. The prices were OK, but I figured they were worth the deal so I bought 10 vouchers. The next day, I went back to The Butchers, they took down all their price displays from the meats and they charged me a LOT more than what they had quoted me before. When I asked for prices after purchasing the meat, the woman told me to look at the sticker labels on the bag - and there were no prices. This business seems very sketchy and unprofessional. I wish I hadn't bought my vouchers and will be trying my best to refund them.
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Amy ‎ - 24 Jan 2011
We purchased a voucher that entitled us to $50 worth of meats at The Butchers. Marlon (owner) was very friendly but unfortunately overcharged us once he knew we had a voucher. He charged us $13.99/lb of pork shoulder. I asked for 2lbs and he gave us 5lbs. When I called as a new customer, he told me that a lb of shoulder pork is $6.99. He overcharged us because we had a voucher - very unprofessional in my opinion. Will definitely not be returning.


R. Tey ‎ - 21 Feb 2011
We purchased a voucher for $40 worth $100 of meats. We went to the store many times and found they always have low to no supply of meats. There are no prices posted because they give different prices everytime and if you show them the voucher to redeem the price you pay goes up by 400%. This is unprofessional business and we will never go back there to shop.

[kator]

great news!

the folks at webpiggy refunded all my vouchers (even the used one, since the product they sent me was not what i ordered and some of it was covered in dirt and hair)

kudos to them!

[Jdog75]

I got both used vouchers refunded from Dealfind based on my experience above.

I hope that something is done about this for the future.

I also hope that the Butchers have learned a lesson from this. They have lost so many potential customers. Will never ever consider shopping there. I would rather go to The Friendly Butcher or The Healthy Butcher.

[kator]

I got both used vouchers refunded from Dealfind based on my experience above.

I hope that something is done about this for the future.

I also hope that the Butchers have learned a lesson from this. They have lost so many potential customers. Will never ever
consider shopping there. I would rather go to The Friendly Butcher or The Healthy Butcher.
I'm a big fan of the healthy butcher. Obviously you won't get an amazing deal but they have good service and good products

[onehaehyuk]

Yeah this place is awful and has the worst customer service. Last December I bought a voucher from Kijiji daily deals and I went the day after the deal (which was the first day I could officially use the coupon) and I asked for a couple things and went to use the coupon to pay for it. They told me that I couldn't use it because there was another deal from Captain Save going on at the same time so the Kijiji coupon wouldn't be good for another 4 weeks. I showed them the date on the coupon and told them that that wasn't my problem (how was I supposed to know there was another deal going on through Captain Save and why should that affect my coupon) and I had no idea about the Captain Save thing and they said they couldn't do anything. Then they looked at me and said, "well are you going to pay for your order or not, I've already rung it up!"

Needless to say, I haven't gone back to this place. I'll have to return at some point to use up my Kijiji coupon but will never return again for sure.

[Xert]

I'm a big fan of the healthy butcher. Obviously you won't get an amazing deal but they have good service and good products

How on earth does anything described in this thread count as "good service"?

[kator]

How on earth does anything described in this thread count as "good service"?

slow down there, cowboy! i said "the *healthy* butcher" (a good butcher), not "the butcher" (the bad, horrible evil one that's being discussed here)

[TinyTank]

how on earth does anything described in this thread count as "good service"?

fail!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bookpreviews]

great news!

the folks at webpiggy refunded all my vouchers (even the used one, since the product they sent me was not what i ordered and some of it was covered in dirt and hair)

kudos to them!

Really?
your meat was covered in dirt and hair??

pics please or it didn't happened.

Can't wait to see those pics.

I always document and food incidents I have had (had some motor oil on highliner fish....and they asked me to send the fish fillet by mail....and it was summer,lol).

But I have a pic of that somewhere on my pc,lol

[sillysimms]

Really?
your meat was covered in dirt and hair??

pics please or it didn't happened.

Can't wait to see those pics.

I always document and food incidents I have had (had some motor oil on highliner fish....and they asked me to send the fish fillet by mail....and it was summer,lol).

But I have a pic of that somewhere on my pc,lol

The poster did post pics here (although they currently aren't working):

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-young-pricing-1003275/8/#post12630205

I did see a hair when the pics were up.

[dealfinder15]

Wow! Not surprised reading all the NEGATIVE reviews and how the owner butchering the prices!!!

Toronto19 ‎ - 5 Mar 2011
The voucher is a SCAM. Pork tenderloin is $18.99/lb. All they had on display was two pork tenderloins and a few pork should chops. The also had two huge pork shoulders, but that was it. When they told me the price was $18.99/lb I asked if the pig was raised on acorns. For that price it should be iberico ham!
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Miss L ‎ - 13 Feb 2011
I also purchased a voucher $40 for 100$ worth of meats from livingsocial deals. Before I bought the deal, I went over to the The Butchers to buy some meat and ask for prices, which were written down. The prices were OK, but I figured they were worth the deal so I bought 10 vouchers. The next day, I went back to The Butchers, they took down all their price displays from the meats and they charged me a LOT more than what they had quoted me before. When I asked for prices after purchasing the meat, the woman told me to look at the sticker labels on the bag - and there were no prices. This business seems very sketchy and unprofessional. I wish I hadn't bought my vouchers and will be trying my best to refund them.
9 out of 11 people found this review helpful. Was this review helpful? Yes - No - Flag as inappropriate


Amy ‎ - 24 Jan 2011
We purchased a voucher that entitled us to $50 worth of meats at The Butchers. Marlon (owner) was very friendly but unfortunately overcharged us once he knew we had a voucher. He charged us $13.99/lb of pork shoulder. I asked for 2lbs and he gave us 5lbs. When I called as a new customer, he told me that a lb of shoulder pork is $6.99. He overcharged us because we had a voucher - very unprofessional in my opinion. Will definitely not be returning.


R. Tey ‎ - 21 Feb 2011
We purchased a voucher for $40 worth $100 of meats. We went to the store many times and found they always have low to no supply of meats. There are no prices posted because they give different prices everytime and if you show them the voucher to redeem the price you pay goes up by 400%. This is unprofessional business and we will never go back there to shop.


i purchased a voucher 40 worth for 100. i went in later on the day, noticing the low stock, i asked nicely and the worker and they told me that there was 11 000 voucher that has been sold, and everyone is coming in to redeem them. i understand considering there is only one butcher and they cut everything by hand. she suggested i could email order the butchers, just there will be at least 2-3 business days for a confirmation e-mail. that is understandable since there was so many vouchers sold. i left with a few items and was very pleased with the quality and service. the price was a little more expensive then usual. but getting the 60% discount i am receiving from this voucher. I am fine with this small adjustment.

[kator]

i purchased a voucher 40 worth for 100. i went in later on the day, noticing the low stock, i asked nicely and the worker and they told me that there was 11 000 voucher that has been sold, and everyone is coming in to redeem them. i understand considering there is only one butcher and they cut everything by hand. she suggested i could email order the butchers, just there will be at least 2-3 business days for a confirmation e-mail. that is understandable since there was so many vouchers sold. i left with a few items and was very pleased with the quality and service. the price was a little more expensive then usual. but getting the 60% discount i am receiving from this voucher. I am fine with this small adjustment.


lol, what you wrote there sounds exactly like the spiel the guy gave me on the phone when i called the butchers. and i notice this is your first post here.

hmmmmmm!;)

[FroJoe]

i purchased a voucher 40 worth for 100. i went in later on the day, noticing the low stock, i asked nicely and the worker and they told me that there was 11 000 voucher that has been sold, and everyone is coming in to redeem them. i understand considering there is only one butcher and they cut everything by hand. she suggested i could email order the butchers, just there will be at least 2-3 business days for a confirmation e-mail. that is understandable since there was so many vouchers sold. i left with a few items and was very pleased with the quality and service. the price was a little more expensive then usual. but getting the 60% discount i am receiving from this voucher. I am fine with this small adjustment.

LOL. first post? seriously?

you can go to hell with your shady business practices.... good day to you SIR.

[kator]

LOL. first post? seriously?

you can go to hell with your shady business practices.... good day to you SIR.


yeah "the price was a little more expensive then usual. but getting the 60% discount i am receiving from this voucher. I am fine with this small adjustment." no one other than someone who worked there would say that!

[kator]

March 31, 2011
Greetings!

We have received a few complaints from our customers who bought deal from the Butchers about the service and prices inconsistancy. As many of you know that this merchant has sold the vouchers beyond his capacity without caluculating the consequences and now he is unable to meet the requirements. One nice thing we want you all to know is that we have only heard nothing but compliments about their quality of meat.

We have discussed the situation with the merchant and able to get the standard price list for all our customers and a plan to serve better. Now he is accepting online orders and assuring the free home delivery with 3-4 business days if you are in Toronto.


Business Hours- Tuesday-Saturday 10am-6pm and on Sunday 11am - 5pm

Butcher's delivery request form

Considering the different scenarios we advise you to plan redeeming your vouchers and send us your feedback to contact@dealgetters.com

Will try to take more precautions in choosing the merchants
Thank you for using DealGetters
Sincerely,

Vijay Karumachi
Co-Founder
DealGetters


from: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/772531#6428585

[Diamond_Ace]

I had terrible time trying to redeem my voucher at The Butchers as well.

I bought my voucher from Webpiggy.com. Two weeks after I bought from them, I finally got wind of the prices at The Butchers and found it to be ridiculous so I asked for a refund. This was well within their 30 days money back guarantee period. Instead, they said that organic meat is naturally more expensive and that "price higher than I expected" is not a justifiable reason for a refund. They offered me Webpiggy credit of the $50 ($50 for $150).

I felt that I would have even less use of $50 from Webpiggy because they don't have great deals often so I just kept it.

When I went to actually use my voucher at The Butchers, they processed my order and then got mad when I tried to redeem the coupon at the END of the transaction. They said I had to present it at the beginning and they refused to complete the order with the voucher.

I emailed Webpiggy and told them about this. I told them I had asked for a refund within the 30 day period and they refused because the reason wasn't good enough for them. I told them the reason NOW is the terrible company they had represented who refused to redeem my voucher. That they were equally responsible because they were representing them and the voucher had no fine print that said 'Present before ordering'.

Here is webpiggy's response:

ME=======
Hi James,

I understood when you couldn't refund me because I felt the prices were too high. I'm asking for refund now because of the terrible service at the business you are representing who would not honour the voucher since I didn't present it before my order. I don't live down the street from it. The voucher does not say 'present before ordering'. I left because I did not feel right redeeming a voucher for prices that are higher than if I paid cash.

Webpiggy is as much a scam as The Butchers and I'll be sure to pass this message along.

Webpiggy=======
I apologize you feel this way. We do our best to accommodate all customers and try to resolve every situation to the best of our ability. We have not had one complaint in the 16 months we have been doing business.

Calling us a scam is something we will not tolerate. We initially offered you a full credit towards your purchase, with no question. That credit comes out of our pocket, not the Butchers. We took very little commission on this deal in order to pass on a huge savings to our customers. If you would like a refund, I would suggest speaking with them.

For the aforementioned and your inappropriate, unmerited and spurious comment about Webpiggy, I will be deleting your account by the end of the day. I have attached all vouchers you have purchased from us int he past. We do not wish to do business with you in future.

Regards
James Vettese <jvettese@webpiggy.com>

ME=======
Your company should do their proper research and stand behind the deals that they sell. "Go talk to the other business" seems like a cop out method to not stand behind YOUR product. I bought the certificate from YOU, not them. Add the correct fine print or at least stand behind your own refund policy. Would you have refunded me if I said I used the whole voucher and the meat was gross? I bet then you'd say, "Too bad, you used it. Can't refund now."

What if I want a refund? From their website.
Webpiggy handles refunds on a case by case basis. All sales are considered final once the payment has been processed at the end of each deal. If you are not satisfied with a service or product you have purchased from a participating merchant we will provide you with a full refund for 30 days after your purchase. After 30 days we will give you a Webpiggy credit for the full amount.

Webpiggy=======
Your account has now been deleted. Please refrain from contacting us in future.

[angekfire]

Wow that is unprofessional on webpiggy's part. I have not dealt with them, but that is certainly a good way to make sure I never do either.

[pakmode]

I had terrible time trying to redeem my voucher at The Butchers as well.

I bought my voucher from Webpiggy.com. Two weeks after I bought from them, I finally got wind of the prices at The Butchers and found it to be ridiculous so I asked for a refund. This was well within their 30 days money back guarantee period. Instead, they said that organic meat is naturally more expensive and that "price higher than I expected" is not a justifiable reason for a refund. They offered me Webpiggy credit of the $50 ($50 for $150).

I felt that I would have even less use of $50 from Webpiggy because they don't have great deals often so I just kept it.

When I went to actually use my voucher at The Butchers, they processed my order and then got mad when I tried to redeem the coupon at the END of the transaction. They said I had to present it at the beginning and they refused to complete the order with the voucher.

I emailed Webpiggy and told them about this. I told them I had asked for a refund within the 30 day period and they refused because the reason wasn't good enough for them. I told them the reason NOW is the terrible company they had represented who refused to redeem my voucher. That they were equally responsible because they were representing them and the voucher had no fine print that said 'Present before ordering'.



Webpiggy=======
Your account has now been deleted. Please refrain from contacting us in future.


Wow, that is awful. Just awful.
Perhaps you can do a chargeback through your credit card?
You never actually received the services you paid for, so I would explore this route.

Webpiggy ownership: If you are reading this, I implore you to refund customers back who are unsatisfied otherwise you will be run out of business by your competition.
With 35+ group buy sites (and growing) customer's will not tolerate your incompetence and ineptitude and move on to the next group buy broker.

As for The Butchers: they've been shilling on chowhound the past couple days, but their (and my) posts have been deleted.
I basically outted them a couple months ago for being greedy pigs.
Their Bernie Madoff-eque house of cards will soon topple as more customers run towards the exit asking for refunds. (Wouldn't surprise me if you see Webpiggy fold and perhaps others who got caught up in the greed).

Anyways, I'm not here to fear-monger, but I hate greedy pigs. During the beginning of the credit crisis when other banks started to pull out of Lehman Brothers, it essentially imploded on itself in 1 week. The word on the street was they were leveraged 66 to 1 in some portions of their business. That is for every $1 of their own money they were borrowing $66.
What's worse is they didn't learn their lesson 6 months earlier when Bear Stearns collapsed, literally over a weekend.

My point here is, if you bought this and don't think it's worth it, take your money and run, just don't get caught holding the bag.

[kator]

I had terrible time trying to redeem my voucher at The Butchers as well.

I bought my voucher from Webpiggy.com. Two weeks after I bought from them, I finally got wind of the prices at The Butchers and found it to be ridiculous so I asked for a refund. This was well within their 30 days money back guarantee period. Instead, they said that organic meat is naturally more expensive and that "price higher than I expected" is not a justifiable reason for a refund. They offered me Webpiggy credit of the $50 ($50 for $150).

I felt that I would have even less use of $50 from Webpiggy because they don't have great deals often so I just kept it.

When I went to actually use my voucher at The Butchers, they processed my order and then got mad when I tried to redeem the coupon at the END of the transaction. They said I had to present it at the beginning and they refused to complete the order with the voucher.

I emailed Webpiggy and told them about this. I told them I had asked for a refund within the 30 day period and they refused because the reason wasn't good enough for them. I told them the reason NOW is the terrible company they had represented who refused to redeem my voucher. That they were equally responsible because they were representing them and the voucher had no fine print that said 'Present before ordering'.

Here is webpiggy's response:

ME=======
Hi James,

I understood when you couldn't refund me because I felt the prices were too high. I'm asking for refund now because of the terrible service at the business you are representing who would not honour the voucher since I didn't present it before my order. I don't live down the street from it. The voucher does not say 'present before ordering'. I left because I did not feel right redeeming a voucher for prices that are higher than if I paid cash.

Webpiggy is as much a scam as The Butchers and I'll be sure to pass this message along.

Webpiggy=======
I apologize you feel this way. We do our best to accommodate all customers and try to resolve every situation to the best of our ability. We have not had one complaint in the 16 months we have been doing business.

Calling us a scam is something we will not tolerate. We initially offered you a full credit towards your purchase, with no question. That credit comes out of our pocket, not the Butchers. We took very little commission on this deal in order to pass on a huge savings to our customers. If you would like a refund, I would suggest speaking with them.

For the aforementioned and your inappropriate, unmerited and spurious comment about Webpiggy, I will be deleting your account by the end of the day. I have attached all vouchers you have purchased from us int he past. We do not wish to do business with you in future.

Regards
James Vettese <jvettese@webpiggy.com>

ME=======
Your company should do their proper research and stand behind the deals that they sell. "Go talk to the other business" seems like a cop out method to not stand behind YOUR product. I bought the certificate from YOU, not them. Add the correct fine print or at least stand behind your own refund policy. Would you have refunded me if I said I used the whole voucher and the meat was gross? I bet then you'd say, "Too bad, you used it. Can't refund now."

What if I want a refund? From their website.
Webpiggy handles refunds on a case by case basis. All sales are considered final once the payment has been processed at the end of each deal. If you are not satisfied with a service or product you have purchased from a participating merchant we will provide you with a full refund for 30 days after your purchase. After 30 days we will give you a Webpiggy credit for the full amount.

Webpiggy=======
Your account has now been deleted. Please refrain from contacting us in future.

Wow, that is really disappointing. I was impressed with webpiggy and how they handled my case until I read that. I spoke with that exact person (James Vettese) when I got my refund - he was very nice and refunded a full 7 vouchers. And you know what? One of my vouchers WAS used, and he refunded it too (the meat was gross - it had hair and dirt on it - I sent him a picture) I'm betting they're acting like this as they've probably refunded a whole bunch at this point and lost a lot of money. No excuse

But I'd have to agree, it is a scam. I won't be buying from webpiggy again now.

[Diamond_Ace]

Wow, that is really disappointing. I was impressed with webpiggy and how they handled my case until I read that. I spoke with that exact person (James Vitesse) when I got my refund - he was very nice and refunded a full 7 vouchers. And you know what? One of my vouchers WAS used, and he refunded it too (the meat was gross - it had hair and dirt on it - I sent him a picture) I'm betting they're acting like this as they've probably refunded a whole bunch at this point and lost a lot of money. No excuse

But I'd have to agree, it is a scam. I won't be buying from webpiggy again now.

He fully said they've been in business for 16 months without ANY complaints! LIARS!

[ipassgas]

Wow... I can't believe WebPiggy's response above. That's the last time I will buy anything from them. Unless there's another side to that story, sounds pretty shady to me.

I had bought 2 vouchers and also had asked WebPiggy for a refund. They won't refund me. They offered a WebPiggy credit. After that reply, I'm not sure what's worse doing business with the Butchers or with WebPiggy?

Looks like they are perfect partners for each other. I will use my vouchers as best I can, take the loss, and not do business with either of those 2 companies again. For what it's worth, I'll also write to Better Business Bureau about both The Butchers and Webpiggy.

With so many competing deal sites, you'd think WebPiggy would be smarter than cancelling someone's account, especially when it seems that it was the customer who was correct. Terrible customer service. Will never buy from WebPiggy again.

[kator]

Really?
your meat was covered in dirt and hair??

pics please or it didn't happened.

Can't wait to see those pics.

I always document and food incidents I have had (had some motor oil on highliner fish....and they asked me to send the fish fillet by mail....and it was summer,lol).

But I have a pic of that somewhere on my pc,lol

here's is the photo of the dirty meat the butcher's sent me - i uploaded it again

http://web21.twitpic.com/img/268282690-fd109bf70875d825c4e6f1e608a11c5c.4d95fd88-scaled.jpg

[angekfire]

The fact is, if web piggy has refunded some based on the complaints, I think it is fair and would be good publicity to refund everyone who requested. Maybe not on used vouchers (Unless some proof was present like the pics of dirty/hairy meat), but at least refund any unused ones.

That one lack of refund with the word-of-mouth on this will cost them far more than a $55 refund would have.

[ipassgas]

You should start a thread about your problems with WebPiggy on the shopping discussion forum.
Too bad it couldn't be made as a sticky on the top of this page warning others against buying from WebPiggy ever again.

I've had a great experience with WagJag customer service. WebPiggy is quite disappointing.

[catwalk]

ME=======
Hi James,

Webpiggy is as much a scam as The Butchers and I'll be sure to pass this message along.

Webpiggy=======
I apologize you feel this way. We do our best to accommodate all customers and try to resolve every situation to the best of our ability. We have not had one complaint in the 16 months we have been doing business.

Calling us a scam is something we will not tolerate.
Webpiggy must be hurting bad financially for them to be saying "too bad, go away, we have deleted your account" *Webpiggy reps stick fingers in ears and go LALALALALALALA*
;)

Terrible customer service, but they seemed to have gone off on you using the word "scam", really went down hill from there. I wouldn't have called it a scam, I would have said 'they charge one price for voucher customers and another for everyone else, that's not right, I want a refund.'

In any case, Webpiggy doesn't have many good deals anyway.

[kator]

Webpiggy must be hurting bad financially for them to be saying "too bad, go away, we have deleted your account" *Webpiggy reps stick fingers in ears and go LALALALALALALA*
;)

Terrible customer service, but they seemed to have gone off on you using the word "scam", really went down hill from there. I wouldn't have called it a scam, I would have said 'they charge one price for voucher customers and another for everyone else, that's not right, I want a refund.'

In any case, Webpiggy doesn't have many good deals anyway.

i got so sick of all this ridiculousness that i wrote up a blog post about it. hopefully it will get some mainstream media attention and get everyone who wants a refund their money back.

http://www.k4t3.org/2011/04/02/the-dark-side-of-online-group-coupons/

[pakmode]

i got so sick of all this ridiculousness that i wrote up a blog post about it. hopefully it will get some mainstream media attention and get everyone who wants a refund their money back.

http://www.k4t3.org/2011/04/02/the-dark-side-of-online-group-coupons/

Kate - great piece.
Cool area to do a PhD in too. :)
Best of luck.


On a sidenote, I consider Groupon and Wagjag to be the leaders of this industry in Ontario at least. Groupon has now become the synonymous term for all these 'group buy broker' sites, similar to how we say Kleenex instead of tissue, or Coke instead of cola, etc.
I had an experience with Groupon last week that absolutely blew my mind in terms of how good their customer service was.
Good customer service rarely, if ever, gets commented on publicly.

In a nutshell: I had an unfortunate experience with a vendor, and emailed Groupon to advise them, but never actually asked, or expected, a refund since I had used the groupon. To my surprise, Groupon emailed me back within 20 minutes apologizing for the experience, refunded my money back on my credit card, and applied an equal amount as a Groupon credit towards future purchases. Amazing...

[Bookpreviews]

Kate - great piece.
Cool area to do a PhD in too. :)
Best of luck.


On a sidenote, I consider Groupon and Wagjag to be the leaders of this industry in Ontario at least. Groupon has now become the synonymous term for all these 'group buy broker' sites, similar to how we say Kleenex instead of tissue, or Coke instead of cola, etc.
I had an experience with Groupon last week that absolutely blew my mind in terms of how good their customer service was.
Good customer service rarely, if ever, gets commented on publicly.

In a nutshell: I had an unfortunate experience with a vendor, and emailed Groupon to advise them, but never actually asked, or expected, a refund since I had used the groupon. To my surprise, Groupon emailed me back within 20 minutes apologizing for the experience, refunded my money back on my credit card, and applied an equal amount as a Groupon credit towards future purchases. Amazing...

That's pretty impressive!
I had a very bad visit at Piccolo Grande on Mackay st, Ottawa (Hintonburg).
And I emailed Koopon.ca- the site running the deal.
Asked for a refund or at least a credit and their reply was "the lady who owns the store whith her son- her son is out of the country so it is a lot of work for her...."
Great, did not address my issue.

I emailed Koopon.ca a few times and even asked for a partial refund as I did not get everything I ordered-I was refused to me made a coffee or espresso, when that was part of the deal.
Also my deal was worth $12 max and they were saying "value of $24".

Even spoke to the person who runs Koopon and said I'd be posting online about this in several forums about my experience.
So, for me that was one bad experience.
I still feel like calling food inspection on that place, lady never washes her hands between handling meat for sandwiches, doing cash and serving ice cream.
It took over 1 hour for me to get my D@@@m sandwich and ice cream:twisted:

I will stay away from Webpiggy after hearing stuff here too!

[sillysimms]

i purchased a voucher 40 worth for 100. i went in later on the day, noticing the low stock, i asked nicely and the worker and they told me that there was 11 000 voucher that has been sold, and everyone is coming in to redeem them. i understand considering there is only one butcher and they cut everything by hand. she suggested i could email order the butchers, just there will be at least 2-3 business days for a confirmation e-mail. that is understandable since there was so many vouchers sold. i left with a few items and was very pleased with the quality and service. the price was a little more expensive then usual. but getting the 60% discount i am receiving from this voucher. I am fine with this small adjustment.

Well, if a business does not have the business sense to only sell the number of vouchers that they can accommodate, obviously it is going to lead to these problems. If you sell 11,000 vouchers, you should expect a heck of a lot of people are going to be coming to redeem their vouchers. This type of promotion is supposed to be GOOD advertising for a business to attract and RETAIN new customers and this deal is doing exactly the opposite. If the business sold more vouchers than they can realistically handle, that is their problem and they should have made more sound business decisions.

I'm glad *you're* fine with this small adjustments, but most legitimate customers would not be and should not be.


I had terrible time trying to redeem my voucher at The Butchers as well.

I bought my voucher from Webpiggy.com. Two weeks after I bought from them, I finally got wind of the prices at The Butchers and found it to be ridiculous so I asked for a refund. This was well within their 30 days money back guarantee period. Instead, they said that organic meat is naturally more expensive and that "price higher than I expected" is not a justifiable reason for a refund. They offered me Webpiggy credit of the $50 ($50 for $150).

I felt that I would have even less use of $50 from Webpiggy because they don't have great deals often so I just kept it.

When I went to actually use my voucher at The Butchers, they processed my order and then got mad when I tried to redeem the coupon at the END of the transaction. They said I had to present it at the beginning and they refused to complete the order with the voucher.

I emailed Webpiggy and told them about this. I told them I had asked for a refund within the 30 day period and they refused because the reason wasn't good enough for them. I told them the reason NOW is the terrible company they had represented who refused to redeem my voucher. That they were equally responsible because they were representing them and the voucher had no fine print that said 'Present before ordering'.

Here is webpiggy's response:

ME=======
Hi James,

I understood when you couldn't refund me because I felt the prices were too high. I'm asking for refund now because of the terrible service at the business you are representing who would not honour the voucher since I didn't present it before my order. I don't live down the street from it. The voucher does not say 'present before ordering'. I left because I did not feel right redeeming a voucher for prices that are higher than if I paid cash.

Webpiggy is as much a scam as The Butchers and I'll be sure to pass this message along.

Webpiggy=======
I apologize you feel this way. We do our best to accommodate all customers and try to resolve every situation to the best of our ability. We have not had one complaint in the 16 months we have been doing business.

Calling us a scam is something we will not tolerate. We initially offered you a full credit towards your purchase, with no question. That credit comes out of our pocket, not the Butchers. We took very little commission on this deal in order to pass on a huge savings to our customers. If you would like a refund, I would suggest speaking with them.

For the aforementioned and your inappropriate, unmerited and spurious comment about Webpiggy, I will be deleting your account by the end of the day. I have attached all vouchers you have purchased from us int he past. We do not wish to do business with you in future.

Regards
James Vettese <jvettese@webpiggy.com>

ME=======
Your company should do their proper research and stand behind the deals that they sell. "Go talk to the other business" seems like a cop out method to not stand behind YOUR product. I bought the certificate from YOU, not them. Add the correct fine print or at least stand behind your own refund policy. Would you have refunded me if I said I used the whole voucher and the meat was gross? I bet then you'd say, "Too bad, you used it. Can't refund now."

What if I want a refund? From their website.
Webpiggy handles refunds on a case by case basis. All sales are considered final once the payment has been processed at the end of each deal. If you are not satisfied with a service or product you have purchased from a participating merchant we will provide you with a full refund for 30 days after your purchase. After 30 days we will give you a Webpiggy credit for the full amount.

Webpiggy=======
Your account has now been deleted. Please refrain from contacting us in future.

Thanks for that post. Unless there is a totally different side of the story from Webpiggy, they sound horrible. New daily deals sites are popping up everyday. Most of them will die out eventually and only a few will remain in the end. With customer service as you have shown above, Webpiggy no doubt will be one of the ones that closes. I know for sure I'll never deal with them after reading your post.


You should start a thread about your problems with WebPiggy on the shopping discussion forum.
Too bad it couldn't be made as a sticky on the top of this page warning others against buying from WebPiggy ever again.

I've had a great experience with WagJag customer service. WebPiggy is quite disappointing.

I agree. Diamond_Ace - not sure if you have done this yet, but I hope you do. That way more people that aren't reading this thread would be aware of Webpiggy's attitude toward their customers.

[kator]

Kate - great piece.
Cool area to do a PhD in too. :)
Best of luck.


On a sidenote, I consider Groupon and Wagjag to be the leaders of this industry in Ontario at least. Groupon has now become the synonymous term for all these 'group buy broker' sites, similar to how we say Kleenex instead of tissue, or Coke instead of cola, etc.
I had an experience with Groupon last week that absolutely blew my mind in terms of how good their customer service was.
Good customer service rarely, if ever, gets commented on publicly.

In a nutshell: I had an unfortunate experience with a vendor, and emailed Groupon to advise them, but never actually asked, or expected, a refund since I had used the groupon. To my surprise, Groupon emailed me back within 20 minutes apologizing for the experience, refunded my money back on my credit card, and applied an equal amount as a Groupon credit towards future purchases. Amazing...

thanks:D my phd topic is actually facebook privacy... this was a nice diversion

yeah i pretty much will only use wagjag or groupon now, after this fiasco.

[YLSF]

Well, to be fair to Webpiggy, instead of just telling them your 2nd issue and asking what they could do (telling them about how you were treated at the store) you just called them a scam at the end of the e-mail. I think it would have been better to let them address your second complaint and if you didn't get a appropriate response then feel free to call them a scam. Regardless, it was very weird how they handled it too.

In the past I have had okay dealings with Webpiggy, from returning money for businesses that went under, to winning a few contests they had for free vouchers... but, the reality is their vouchers have sucked pretty bad for a while and there is hardly anything I ever want to buy there. I pretty much stick to Dealfind, groupon, and wagjag now with the occasional dealicious thrown in there.

I used my Dealgetters voucher there last week. The people working the counter were okay in terms of level of service. The lady I dealt with seemed pleasant enough but I went mid week during the middle of the day as I happened to be in the area. I can imagine it would be crazy on the weekend. According to their site they are installing their new fridges (or have) and were closing down for 2 Sundays in a row.

Now, the thing is their prices are really high. I saw a customer before me shop without a voucher and I was thinking "wow, who would pay these prices normally". Even for organic/naturally raised meat it seemed pricey to me.

But, they had all of the prices in the display case which was good, and they had quiet a bit of stuff considering the size of the store. But, in general, the store is pretty small and i can see how they could sell out pretty quickly. They were really dumb to sell so many vouchers at once for this place.

What I am wondering is if they are doing separate side transactions for all of the "deal vouchers" and aren't running them through their main cash terminal. Like, I didn't get a receipt for the meat I bought but I saw her enter it all into her cash. Maybe she just voided it at the end.

[pigurd]

i purchased a voucher 40 worth for 100. i went in later on the day, noticing the low stock, i asked nicely and the worker and they told me that there was 11 000 voucher that has been sold, and everyone is coming in to redeem them. i understand considering there is only one butcher and they cut everything by hand. she suggested i could email order the butchers, just there will be at least 2-3 business days for a confirmation e-mail. that is understandable since there was so many vouchers sold. i left with a few items and was very pleased with the quality and service. the price was a little more expensive then usual. but getting the 60% discount i am receiving from this voucher. I am fine with this small adjustment.

i emailed a week ago for an order and a question, but i have not received a response.. i emailed 3 days ago again. but no reply... are they not taking email requests anymore? last time i called, whoever picked up just gruffly said he didnt know when stuff is available and that was the end of the conversation.... how do you specifially call that girl that seems to answer the emails? cause anyone else doesnt seem to really care...

[sillysimms]

I emailed WebPiggy advising due to the terrible story reported here, myself and many others wouldn't be doing business with them unless there was another side to the story. The person who responded to Diamond_Ace did send me a message in under 8 hours advising that he apologized and has offered a refund to Diamond_Ace. He said it wasn't an excuse, but was having a very bad week and took it out on someone. He also advised the refund was accepted and the matter has been closed.

Diamond_Ace - can you confirm that you got a refund and apology? Hope so!

[kator]

sadly, it's disappointing. she obviously didn't read any of these forums or even do a google search. such lazy journalism.

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/967973--online-coupon-sites-keep-sprouting

[buddhababy]

:arrowu:I was just about to post the same thing. The print version has a lovely, front page (Business & Careers section) photo of Marlon and Eric smiling happily in front of a nicely stocked display of meat.

[Bookpreviews]

Well, if a business does not have the business sense to only sell the number of vouchers that they can accommodate, obviously it is going to lead to these problems. If you sell 11,000 vouchers, you should expect a heck of a lot of people are going to be coming to redeem their vouchers. This type of promotion is supposed to be GOOD advertising for a business to attract and RETAIN new customers and this deal is doing exactly the opposite. If the business sold more vouchers than they can realistically handle, that is their problem and they should have made more sound business decisions.

I'm glad *you're* fine with this small adjustments, but most legitimate customers would not be and should not be.



Thanks for that post. Unless there is a totally different side of the story from Webpiggy, they sound horrible. New daily deals sites are popping up everyday. Most of them will die out eventually and only a few will remain in the end. With customer service as you have shown above, Webpiggy no doubt will be one of the ones that closes. I know for sure I'll never deal with them after reading your post.



I agree. Diamond_Ace - not sure if you have done this yet, but I hope you do. That way more people that aren't reading this thread would be aware of Webpiggy's attitude toward their customers.

That is just horrible.
I am never going to deal with Webpiggy.
They seem to use any lame excuse to refused refunds.

Maybe you can try and get a refund from your credit card for Webpiggy refusing a refund and not honoring the sale terms?
I've done that before...not for coupons for for a company that would not respond to my email and refused to refund me for a product they never sent and they said I never paid for (yet my credit card was charged??).

So try calling your credit card co, usually they are very helpful with bad retailers, esp online stores :)

[Toronto7777777]

I'm a big fan of the healthy butcher. Obviously you won't get an amazing deal but they have good service and good products

So I guess you're Marlon (the store owner), because their service is horrendous.

I purhased 10 vouchers, placed my order 2 weeks in advance and no one showed up on the delivery day. When I called them they said it was coming...coming when in 2020??? They said called back tomorrow morning if your delivery does not arrive, I called back and was put on hold, then they hung up. I called back and now all I can get is the answering machine.

Other people in here have complained about the meat having hair and dirt on it. I don't care what the deal is I don't want some guy jizzing in the meat because I complained...and yes I wouldn't put it past these people to do this. I've contacted dealfind for my refund. Once I get it I will never buy any type of coupons ever again.>:(

[Toronto7777777]

March 31, 2011
Greetings!

We have received a few complaints from our customers who bought deal from the Butchers about the service and prices inconsistancy. As many of you know that this merchant has sold the vouchers beyond his capacity without caluculating the consequences and now he is unable to meet the requirements. One nice thing we want you all to know is that we have only heard nothing but compliments about their quality of meat.

We have discussed the situation with the merchant and able to get the standard price list for all our customers and a plan to serve better. Now he is accepting online orders and assuring the free home delivery with 3-4 business days if you are in Toronto.


Business Hours- Tuesday-Saturday 10am-6pm and on Sunday 11am - 5pm

Butcher's delivery request form

Considering the different scenarios we advise you to plan redeeming your vouchers and send us your feedback to contact@dealgetters.com

Will try to take more precautions in choosing the merchants
Thank you for using DealGetters
Sincerely,

Vijay Karumachi
Co-Founder
DealGetters


from: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/772531#6428585

3-4 business days...you got to be kidding me...try 3-4 weeks or months...the owner is going to say what ever they want. I'm sure this is not the only shady part of their business.

[Diamond_Ace]

I emailed WebPiggy advising due to the terrible story reported here, myself and many others wouldn't be doing business with them unless there was another side to the story. The person who responded to Diamond_Ace did send me a message in under 8 hours advising that he apologized and has offered a refund to Diamond_Ace. He said it wasn't an excuse, but was having a very bad week and took it out on someone. He also advised the refund was accepted and the matter has been closed.

Diamond_Ace - can you confirm that you got a refund and apology? Hope so!

Hey, I was going to update after I confirmed the refund but yes...I think they caved when I told them I reported the instance to the Better Business Bureau and that I wouldn't rest until "googling webpiggy returned the words 'SCAM SCAM SCAM'!" hahaha

================
Ok, I will have the accounting dept. process the refund for you today. Let me know if you don't see it on your statement in a few business days.
Thanks

Me=====
Hi James,

Yes, I would really appreciate that. That's all I asked for in my complaint at the BBB and I will close that issue.

Thanks,

Webpiggy=======
In light of your experiences, I have discussed this issue with my manager and we will offer you a full refund for your purchase. We do our best to resolve all situations to the best of our ability. Please let us know if this acceptable to you.


ME====
Also note, I KNOW of people who purchased this from you and you gave them refunds. They have replied my publically posted complaints about your service. You know The Butchers is poor company but you can no longer afford to give refunds. Admit it.

While you are not a member of the Better Business Bureau, I have filed a complaint with them regardless. I won't rest until "googling Webpiggy" shows up with scam scam scam who will sell you anything and don't stand behind their product.

[dealzuser]

sadly, it's disappointing. she obviously didn't read any of these forums or even do a google search. such lazy journalism.

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/967973--online-coupon-sites-keep-sprouting


What do you expect from a socialist rag? :) If truth be told, then they lose potential advertising dollars on the fish store.

[superdeals2]

The deal seems to be pretty good, however they do and did raise all the prices with me. They are pretty tricky just giving you a bag of sausages with a price on it and nothing else. I asked for 4 sausages and all I got was a bag labelled $30.

I have found the support by email was pretty good after a few days, however when my order was ready to be picked up and I went in, half of it wasn't even there although it was promised and the delivery date pushed back 3 times.

No one has ever been mean or rude to me there or in the emails like to some of the previous posters but it is pretty frustrating

I was told to re-order by email and too bad. I had ordered 7 different items and only 3 were there.

Now they are posting on their website that you can not even redeem these coupons on weekends which is a crock as this clearly was not the deal they agreed to on dealfind and I like to buy my meat fresh for BBQ on weekends.

Deals like this should have a limited quantity as it is impossible to service this many customers. I have also heard that they have yet ANOTHER deal coming up within the next week on Webpiggy. How can they do this when they are already so overloaded unless they are planning on closing soon?

[pakmode]

Now they are posting on their website that you can not even redeem these coupons on weekends which is a crock as this clearly was not the deal they agreed to on dealfind and I like to buy my meat fresh for BBQ on weekends.

Deals like this should have a limited quantity as it is impossible to service this many customers. I have also heard that they have yet ANOTHER deal coming up within the next week on Webpiggy. How can they do this when they are already so overloaded unless they are planning on closing soon?

If this rumour is indeed true, they would be selling new vouchers because:

1. They need money to finance their new store across the street.
2. They're greedy and idolize Bernie Madoff.
3. They have a partner in Webpiggy, who will happily oblige, as Webpiggy needs to recoup some of their losses from all the refunds.

[sillysimms]

Hey, I was going to update after I confirmed the refund but yes...I think they caved when I told them I reported the instance to the Better Business Bureau and that I wouldn't rest until "googling webpiggy returned the words 'SCAM SCAM SCAM'!" hahaha

================
Ok, I will have the accounting dept. process the refund for you today. Let me know if you don't see it on your statement in a few business days.
Thanks

Me=====
Hi James,

Yes, I would really appreciate that. That's all I asked for in my complaint at the BBB and I will close that issue.

Thanks,

Webpiggy=======
In light of your experiences, I have discussed this issue with my manager and we will offer you a full refund for your purchase. We do our best to resolve all situations to the best of our ability. Please let us know if this acceptable to you.


ME====
Also note, I KNOW of people who purchased this from you and you gave them refunds. They have replied my publically posted complaints about your service. You know The Butchers is poor company but you can no longer afford to give refunds. Admit it.

While you are not a member of the Better Business Bureau, I have filed a complaint with them regardless. I won't rest until "googling Webpiggy" shows up with scam scam scam who will sell you anything and don't stand behind their product.

Glad that it worked out for you in the end (although too bad the refund wasn't given when you first asked!)

[Cas77]

Now they are posting on their website that you can not even redeem these coupons on weekends which is a crock as this clearly was not the deal they agreed to on dealfind and I like to buy my meat fresh for BBQ on weekends.


Wow! They will single-handedly kill all of these deal sites. The whole point of this is knowing what you're buying. Once companies put in clauses and start making their own rules after the fact in these vouchers it will plant a seed of doubt in consumers and spell the end of it.

To whoever disagreed with the poster who called it a scam and the webpig backlash that ensued; remember we're in the minority having been exposed to these daily deal sites for a few years. Alot of these deal site virgins click the 'Buy now' in good faith, not having discussed these types of sites ad nauseum on a consumer forum, on a deal that may or may not appear too good to be true. If they don't get exactly what they signed up for then they'll call it a scam...as they should.

[AAA]

How could they keep adding restrictions to the vouchers?
So, what's next? store opens Monday only for voucher holders and the rest is for the regular customers? Grrrr...

[YLSF]

Really crazy that they added more conditions!

[kontra]

was anyone able to get a refund from deal getters?

[deal_king]

i don't care what the deal is i don't want some guy jizzing in the meat because i complained...

hahahahhaha hahahhahahaha aahahahhahhahahahahahahahaaaa!!!!! Rotfl!

[drwilly13]

I went to redeem my coupon tonight and the store was closed. The Butchers website says that hours had been changed from 8am-8pm to accommodate all those who purchased coupons. I arrived shortly after 7pm, lights were off, blinds were drawn. I will return tomorrow in hopes that they are still in business.

[Papa Smurf]

was anyone able to get a refund from deal getters?

Unfortunately no... :-(

[YLSF]

I went to redeem my coupon tonight and the store was closed. The Butchers website says that hours had been changed from 8am-8pm to accommodate all those who purchased coupons. I arrived shortly after 7pm, lights were off, blinds were drawn. I will return tomorrow in hopes that they are still in business.

Even if they were open they would probably have no meat by that time. They seem to sell out by like 3pm or 4pm according to past posts.... I highly suggest going as early as you can during the day unless you pre-order

[TinyTank]

i can't believe this

BUt the butchers have another group buy deal going on. THis time it's even more insane.

$100 for $400!!!

Plus, they have a new store, Marlin's fish store right next door!

How are they doing this?

http://webpiggy.com/

I can't believe webpiggy, also has a link to the toronto star article about them

lol

[skyngai]

THE DETAILS

Includes:
$350 towards The Butchers.
$50 towards Marlin's Fish Shop.

May purchase a maximum of 20 vouchers per customer.
May buy unlimited as gifts.
Vouchers can carry a balance.
May redeem 1 voucher per visit and 2 vouchers per delivery.
Valid Tuesday to Friday from 8am to 8pm.
Free delivery for orders over $50 anywhere in the GTA!
Vouchers have no cash value.
Taxes not included.
Cannot be combined with other offers.
Please email thebutchers2636@yahoo.com for delivery and allow 5 business days for a response.
Vouchers will be valid as of April 13, 2011.
Quantities are limited.
Expiry April 13, 2012.

Marlin's Fish Shop will have it's Grand Opening in early May.

Marlin's Fish Shop:
2631 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON

2636 Yonge Street
Toronto ON M4P 2J5
416 483 5777
info@thebutchersorganic.com

This mean we don't have to buy $400 worth of meat at once right?
It is a bit hard for me to buy $400 worth of items at once if you ask me.
If this can be split to a few different visit, then I will jump into this.

[yoyogu]

I don't know, this smells scam to me.



Come on.... this is certainly too good to be true!

:facepalm:

[Rehan]

Dude's gonna give deal sites and butcher shops a bad name when the house of cards comes tumbling down.

[AcidBomber]

its quite clear that The Butchers Shop is having major financial trouble so they need to sell more vouchers in order to increase their cash flow.

i predict the place will go out of business by the end of the month. its impossible to honour all of these vouchers and still make a profit, totally unsustainable. :facepalm:
and i wont be surprised if regular meat is sold as "organic" meat...

besides, Webpiggy has bad refund policies and refused to refund another member until he posted his experience publicly in the other thread; so i would avoid "them" (Webpiggy and The Butchers) like the plague.

[sillysimms]

There are already issues with them fulfilling orders for the thousands of vouchers that they've already sold...so they're adding more.

Like others said, I agree - not a good sign. Perhaps The Butchers will close down, and they will then operate their "other" store once it opens in May.

[Diamond_Ace]

This mean we don't have to buy $400 worth of meat at once right?
It is a bit hard for me to buy $400 worth of items at once if you ask me.
If this can be split to a few different visit, then I will jump into this.


OMG. Don't do it! I can't believe them!! Now it's a maximum of 20 vouchers? So yes, pay me $2000 and I'll give you $8000 worth of meat??!!

The new fish house isn't the only thing that smells fishy here...

[bigphil26]

They are definitely in a cashflow problem if they are offering a deal like this, If you have any vouchers out there use them up fast before they go bankrupt and your vouchers become worthless.

[Rehan]

According to http://www.postcity.com/Eat-Shop-Do/Eat/December-2010/New-seafood-market-to-open-in-North-Toronto/ , which is dated Dec 7, 2010, the fish market was due to open in just a week (Dec 15). But now it's April, and it says on the Webpiggy deal page that it's scheduled for May. December was also when The Butchers started appearing on group deal sites......

[skyngai]

OMG. Don't do it! I can't believe them!! Now it's a maximum of 20 vouchers? So yes, pay me $2000 and I'll give you $8000 worth of meat??!!

The new fish house isn't the only thing that smells fishy here...

I was planning to use it during the next long weekend, Good Friday about 2 weeks later. Risk?
hum... read a little more on the story and it does sound risky

[YLSF]

Read up on here about all the horrible experiences... "Too good to be true" has never been more correct in this situation.

Like others, I don't trust that the meat is actually organic or naturally raised anymore.

I personally had an "okay" experience but was made to feel like a lower-class customer using my voucher. The meat is not worth the premium and their business practices are horrible (removing other products so they don't have to honour the vouchers on non-meat items).

[buddhababy]

Unbelievable. Webpiggy is now officially on my do not buy list.

Can't believe how many people are defending this deal on the discussion page.

Meh. "limited quantities" but you can buy TWENTY for yourself and unlimited gifts.

What's the math on this one anyways? Vouchers sell for 25% of the 'value', what percent goes to Webpiggy leaving how much for the store? Do they end up with maybe $12.50 from every voucher sold?

Just freakin' unbelievable.

[00cp]

I've sent 3 separate notes to Deal Getters regarding a refund for my Butchers voucher, as of yet they have no contacted me (been about a week). I'd say avoid Deal Getters AND Web Piggy. This is the ultimate case of buyer beware... if you grab this voucher and come back here to complain later, no one will have one iota of sympathy for you.

[00cp]

Originally Posted by kontra
was anyone able to get a refund from deal getters?

Nope... e-mailed them several times. Where are they based out of? Thinking I'd like to visit them in person for my refund....

Anyone?

[00cp]

Found it:

Dealfind Canada
250 Ferrand Drive
Suite 1503
Toronto, Ontario M3C 3G8
Canada

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=250+ferrand+drive+toronto&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=250+Ferrand+Dr,+Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+O ntario&gl=ca&sqi=2&z=16

[canguy9999]

I have a very mixed opinion on The Butchers. I personally haven't had horrible service although I've seen some bad service on their end; such as them being rude with customers in store.

I did have better service the first two times I visited, once right before the deals and my first voucher I used. After that the service quality did slip, but nothing I'd get too upset over. It just went from amazing customer service to average or slightly below.

I really question the meat quality. The first two batches of meat I got there we're amazing, the later batches, it wasn't packaged as nicely, I didn't get as nice looking meat. I also question if they really sell much Organic. My guess is most is the Natural other then the chickens I've seen labeled Organic.

Some people on the webpiggy fourms are saying that their prices are still very reasonable for Organic meat. But are we really getting any organic meat?

I know they've raised their prices since the deals started because I made the exact same order right after one of the first deals and then a month and a half later; The price jumped 30+%.

I really do question the webpiggy forums, it seems like a lot of the posts are from plants.

Do I blame webpiggy for doing this deal with them? Not really. I do question if they take into consideration how from a PR standpoint this could end up effecting them if things go bad. But their trying to make money, and know this deal will make them money. I'm also betting they've learned to hold back more funds from The Butcher for refunds. Although it seems they are only giving credit, instead of cash back on this deal. I find the majority of the items on webpiggy I have no interest in.

As for if I'll purchase this latest deal. I don't think so, I haven't 100% decided, but more then likely I won't. I may have tried it one more time if I could get a cash back refund if things get worse, but with it being credit I really don't see myself participating in the deal.

[00cp]

Registrant:
Yellowthread Corp (Deal Getters)
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: DEALGETTERS.COM
Created on: 30-May-10
Expires on: 30-May-11
Last Updated on: 18-Jun-10

Administrative Contact:
Karumanchi, Vijay
Yellowthread Corp
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada
(917) 546-6868 Fax --

Technical Contact:
Karumanchi, Vijay
Yellowthread Corp
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada
(917) 546-6868 Fax --

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.DEALGETTERS.COM
NS2.DEALGETTERS.COM

[Cas77]

Registrant:
Yellowthread Corp (Deal Getters)
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada
...
Administrative Contact:
Karumanchi, Vijay
Yellowthread Corp
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada
(917) 546-6868 Fax --

Funny...phone number from NYC but they only cater to Canadian cities. VOIP or not...


Also owns the name 235deals.com so buyer beware once the dealgetters name is tarnished and a new deal site pops up.

[00cp]

The more research I'm doing, the more I regret ever buying from DealGetters.

[kontra]

The more research I'm doing, the more I regret ever buying from DealGetters.

have you tried contacting you CC company?

[00cp]

Yes

[buddhababy]

was anyone able to get a refund from deal getters?


Nope... e-mailed them several times. Where are they based out of? Thinking I'd like to visit them in person for my refund....

Anyone?


Found it:

Dealfind Canada
250 Ferrand Drive
Suite 1503
Toronto, Ontario M3C 3G8
Canada

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=250+ferrand+drive+toronto&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=250+Ferrand+Dr,+Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+O ntario&gl=ca&sqi=2&z=16

Dealfind & DealGetters are two different companies. Are you sure you've been emailing the right one?

DealGetters has their address on their About Us page: https://www.dealgetters.com/cms_inner.php?id=MQ==
but if you've been emailing Dealfind....

[00cp]

You are correct, I posted the wrong info from my contact list. The correct information is:


Registrant:
Yellowthread Corp
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: DEALGETTERS.COM
Created on: 30-May-10
Expires on: 30-May-11
Last Updated on: 18-Jun-10

Administrative Contact:
Karumanchi, Vijay
Yellowthread Corp
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada
(917) 546-6868 Fax --

Technical Contact:
Karumanchi, Vijay
Yellowthread Corp
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada
(917) 546-6868 Fax --

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.DEALGETTERS.COM
NS2.DEALGETTERS.COM

[00cp]

Just wanted to share that I just received a full refund from Deal Getters. It was like pulling teeth from a crocodile but I've been reimbursed 100%.

[pakmode]

Deals like this should have a limited quantity as it is impossible to service this many customers. I have also heard that they have yet ANOTHER deal coming up within the next week on Webpiggy. How can they do this when they are already so overloaded unless they are planning on closing soon?

You called this one Superdeals,

This saga keeps getting worse.

As of this posting there were 1300 vouchers sold @ $100 = $130,000

I don't believe their site in saying there's any 'contractual obligation' to sell these vouchers. I believe they used the money to pay for their store across the street, and the more money they made - the greedier they got.

At the end of the day, they're butchers, not businessmen.

And at some point the chickens will come home to roost...

[buddhababy]

1500+ vouchers sold and 2 more days to go.

This is the deal that's gonna get the whole industry regulated.

[Papa Smurf]

Just wanted to share that I just received a full refund from Deal Getters. It was like pulling teeth from a crocodile but I've been reimbursed 100%.

You're lucky. Similar to another person who posted, I haven't received a reply. Already sent a follow up email but no response...

[dealzuser]

I was feeling kind of negative after reading all these posts/threads. Today, I happen to have the day off, and made a trip there at ~1-130pm. There was 3-4 other people in there before me, every one of us clutching a voucher. There was 1 young guy arguing about some meat he emailed to request, but they didn't have it. Without knowing the details, I noticed that his tone quite rude, and the ladies behind the counter was sort of taking it and responding politely (basically, asking for more advanced notice). The guy just turned on his heels and walked out by cutting off the conversation. I'd imagine if they deal with a regular string of cartoon characters like that all day, throwing that kind of attitude, they would start to respond quite impatiently after a few hours....as some people have described.

Overall, the service and the selection were pretty good. I cleaned out their boneless chicken leg/thigh in the display, :) and picked up a couple of steaks/chicken legs to make up the voucher value. My total was ~$152, and the lady serving me just waived the extra $2. Feeling the weight of the bag, I believe that I got my money's worth for $50. Organic or not, I don't know how they even broke even on what I took with me, considering they might have received $30-40 of the $50...

That said, I'm not buying any more vouchers. I can't believe that they are selling more vouchers considering how swamped they claimed to be. I don't understand how these guys run their business. The steak was frozen though, and I'm not sure how they manage the turnover of the meat... (i.e. do they freeze a huge order, and sell them slowly?) I think that in the future, I'll just wander in on my occasional work from home/day off, instead of trying to email / phone in orders.

[00cp]

You're lucky. Similar to another person who posted, I haven't received a reply. Already sent a follow up email but no response...

Luck had nothing to do with it, I just knew the right words to say.

[Jdog75]

This sounds really dodgy and shady once again. I'm sure there is fraud involved now. I am surprised these sites continue to do business with The Butchers. They must be greedy or just as desperate to stay in business. It's a shame. Best of luck to those you purchased coupons. I hope they don't shut down and people lose their hard earned money.

[TSDH]

This sounds really dodgy and shady once again. I'm sure there is fraud involved now. I am surprised these sites continue to do business with The Butchers. They must be greedy or just as desperate to stay in business. It's a shame. Best of luck to those you purchased coupons. I hope they don't shut down and people lose their hard earned money.

Whatever the reason, the only thing they're butchering right now is this deal :lol:

[wrigley]

After reading all the bad press about the Butchers, I contacted WebPiggy and they credited my money back on my visa. I had the $40 for $100 deal, I call them and expressed my concerns, refund only took a couple of days.

[buddhababy]

Unbelievable. I wanted to see what the final total sold was but hit the site just past midnight only to discover the counters have been reset and the "Deal of the Century" is extended for two more days! Last I heard, they had gone over 2,000 vouchers over the weekend and still they want to squeeze more out of this?!?!

[Diamond_Ace]

Still have NOT received my refund. James says it was process week of the 4th so I'll give it a few more days. He said he asked accounting on the 1st.



Hey, I was going to update after I confirmed the refund but yes...I think they caved when I told them I reported the instance to the Better Business Bureau and that I wouldn't rest until "googling webpiggy returned the words 'SCAM SCAM SCAM'!" hahaha

================
Ok, I will have the accounting dept. process the refund for you today. Let me know if you don't see it on your statement in a few business days.
Thanks

Me=====
Hi James,

Yes, I would really appreciate that. That's all I asked for in my complaint at the BBB and I will close that issue.

Thanks,

Webpiggy=======
In light of your experiences, I have discussed this issue with my manager and we will offer you a full refund for your purchase. We do our best to resolve all situations to the best of our ability. Please let us know if this acceptable to you.


ME====
Also note, I KNOW of people who purchased this from you and you gave them refunds. They have replied my publically posted complaints about your service. You know The Butchers is poor company but you can no longer afford to give refunds. Admit it.

While you are not a member of the Better Business Bureau, I have filed a complaint with them regardless. I won't rest until "googling Webpiggy" shows up with scam scam scam who will sell you anything and don't stand behind their product.

[canguy9999]

Unbelievable. I wanted to see what the final total sold was but hit the site just past midnight only to discover the counters have been reset and the "Deal of the Century" is extended for two more days! Last I heard, they had gone over 2,000 vouchers over the weekend and still they want to squeeze more out of this?!?!

If there we're in contract and are only doing this till the contracts are up, why would they extend the deal?

Also I've always had a mixed opinion on this place, great experiences when I first started going there,my experiences have declined since. I still haven't had nearly some of the bad experiences of others.

With that said the comments on webpiggy make me want to puke. They are so oblivious posts from insiders and are making it come across as the best place on earth, so much so that you think they'd rather visit here than Disney Land if they had the choice.

[flashy_mcflash]

From their site (http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html), holy restrictions batman!


Update April 9th, 2011: The team at The Butchers have stated numerous times that you can NOT use more than one voucher at a time. Today we had numerous customers ask to use more than 1 voucher at a time and our staff politely said no. These customers then proceeded to cause scenes in the store. We are doing our best to accomodate all voucher holders, however we never expected to set a North American record with our voucher deals. Please be patient with us and our staff as it's unfair to yell and scream at the staff if we run low on stock. Due to this behavior we will not honor vouchers on weekends.

We have extended our store hours Tuesday- Friday from 8am-8pm to accomodate ALL voucher holders.

Update April 7, 2011 We have been asked by many people why we continue to do these voucher deals. We agreed to do a specific # of deals and signed contracts so we are under contractual obligation. Once these contracts have been fulfilled we will no longer take part in these vouchers deals.

Please note a portion of the proceeds from these remaining voucher deals will go to support the Cancer Society in honour of Marlon's father who recently passed away after a battle with cancer.

NOTICE: Effective Tuesday April 5th, we will only be accepting vouchers from Tuesday to Friday. We apologize for the inconvenience, however to accomodate voucher holders we have extended hours Tuesdays to Fridays from 8am-8pm.

To place a special order, delivery order or to ensure stock is available please call the store in advance or use our delivery request form. Due to a high volume of emails we will do our best to respond to your order within 5 business days. We will confirm your order, so please wait for confirmation from us prior to coming into the store for pickup.

Also please note as detailed in the coupon offer, we only accept 1 coupon at a time. We have been selling out as customers are not respecting the voucher limit. This was clearly noted when purchasing the vouchers, so we ask you to please not ask us to change this policy. We are unable to accomodate more than 1 voucher at a time.

Sale Item: The briskets on sale for $2.99/lb are NOT organic or naturally raised.

[00cp]

I'm waiting for the "we will only be selling meat in 1pd quantities, once every fortnight, to people who can answer us these questions 3" post on their webpage.

[canguy9999]

http://trueler.com/2011/04/09/the-butchers-scam-webpiggy-dealfind/

Interesting read. Wish they would have tried and done more than just with the sausages.

[buddhababy]

http://trueler.com/2011/04/09/the-butchers-scam-webpiggy-dealfind/

Interesting read. With they would have tried and done more than just with the sausages.

VERY interesting read.

[TinyTank]

http://trueler.com/2011/04/09/the-butchers-scam-webpiggy-dealfind/

Interesting read. With they would have tried and done more than just with the sausages.

i've posted this link in the webpiggy discussion board, and the admin keep deleting it!!!

[7jaii]

i've posted this link in the webpiggy discussion board, and the admin keep deleting it!!!

Most sites have rules against links, even RFD has a few "don't link" sites.

Vanessa Lu, who writes about Group Buys and Deals sites for The Toronto Star should be contacted. After all these complaints about Deals Sites & The Butcher, you'd think she would investigate. After all, consumers and readers look to her features and clearly what she printed isn't what customers received.

The best method is contacting BBB, post on local/Canadian forums like RFD, and keep these threads active so they appear on Google. I can image Marlon and his family promoting this same coupon sale when their fish market opens. I can't believe their increasing restrictions...disgusting behaviour reminding me of grocers shaming Food Stamps holders (USA), or pharmacists charging above $2 dispenser fees for Ontario Disability Recipients (Ontario's ODSP) complaining professionals should earn $12 for each prescription - How can Marlon sleep at night?

[kator]

i've posted this link in the webpiggy discussion board, and the admin keep deleting it!!!

me too. i will never buy from webpiggy again

[7jaii]

This mean we don't have to buy $400 worth of meat at once right?
It is a bit hard for me to buy $400 worth of items at once if you ask me.
If this can be split to a few different visit, then I will jump into this.

Why would you purchase vouchers after reading everyone's complaints?

[7jaii]

Really crazy that they added more conditions!

Companies can't add conditions arbitrarily after a contract was agreed upon. Bunch of amateurs and I hope Deals sites & The Butcher learn the consequences... can't wait to see this go "Class Action".


Still have NOT received my refund. James says it was process week of the 4th so I'll give it a few more days. He said he asked accounting on the 1st.

Please post when you receive your refund. As for Marlon & crew, I can't believe they can sleep at night.

[xt21]

After reading this thread, I am done with webpiggy. I purchased several vouchers from them before, but no more.

[00cp]

Vanessa Lu writes the worst fluff pieces in the world

[Diamond_Ace]

Companies can't add conditions arbitrarily after a contract was agreed upon. Bunch of amateurs and I hope Deals sites & The Butcher learn the consequences... can't wait to see this go "Class Action".



Please post when you receive your refund. As for Marlon & crew, I can't believe they can sleep at night.

Will do!

[kator]

Companies can't add conditions arbitrarily after a contract was agreed upon. Bunch of amateurs and I hope Deals sites & The Butcher learn the consequences... can't wait to see this go "Class Action".


yeah, that's the very definition of a contract - you both agree on terms that won't change.

[00cp]

Companies can't add conditions arbitrarily after a contract was agreed upon. Bunch of amateurs and I hope Deals sites & The Butcher learn the consequences... can't wait to see this go "Class Action".

Please post when you receive your refund. As for Marlon & crew, I can't believe they can sleep at night.


Amen! Amateurs indeed... bet theres a lot of hand rubbing and "I can't believe these fools are paying for our new store" before he goes to bed at night. Hope you guys enjoy your sinew laced meats... what a deal!!! lol

[consumersos]

Why would you purchase vouchers after reading everyone's complaints?

People buy based on whether they see value. Price is an important component.

Before anyone cries "scam" on this business, perhaps they should have a closer look. Is the meat organically raised? Some of these posters seem to know the answer.

As a journalist who interviewed the proprietor and included the 100 for 400 dollar offer as part of my story on Global tonight, I didn't see the tell-tale signs of scam.
First, the company has been in business more than ten years. Not fly by night, that's for sure. Second, it's a real store front. Scam operators like to hide in boiler rooms and behind the scenes.
Next, and please remember this: if you buy a product or service using a credit card, and that product or service is not delivered, you can call your major credit card company and have the charge reversed. Plain and simple. I've done scores of stories where consumers paid cash and got nothing; where we're talking coupon companies, you're much better protected, in my view.

As I told one viewer who emailed me tonight, I bought three of the Webpiggy coupons personally and will see what happens. I interviewed customers outside the store (which was not even open on Monday, but the proprietor and staff opened the doors anyway) and I was told by the customers that they were satisfied with what they got.

Good to read the postings.

Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global News Consumer SOS
sos@globalnews.ca
1.866 SOS 1414 Toronto Feedback Line
twitter @consumersos

[YLSF]

People buy based on whether they see value. Price is an important component.

Before anyone cries "scam" on this business, perhaps they should have a closer look. Is the meat organically raised? Some of these posters seem to know the answer.


Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global News Consumer SOS
sos@globalnews.ca
1.866 SOS 1414 Toronto Feedback Line
twitter @consumersos


Sean, if you are still reading on here, please talk to some customers without the cameras around.

The reason why people are using the word "scam" is because they have promised certain things to past voucher purchasers (like being able to buy anyting in the store, being open the hours they said they were going to be open) and didn't deliver. Instead they raised their prices (very well documented on here and on Chowhound, you can read the multiple there over there too if you think customers here are being irrational), made product disappear behind curtains in supposedly broken down fridges (why leave product in fridges that were broken?), changed their store hours, required customers to e-mail 5 days in advance if they had any hope of finding product, the list goes on and on.

Oh, and, what proof do they have that the goods are naturally raised? If you ask for the source they won't tell you, any decent butcher will tell you.

Just because a company has been around for 10 years doesn't mean they can't get greedy and think they see an "opportunity". Bre-X was around almost 10 years from its founding before it was revealed they were a fraud.

And, as for your credit card advise, I don't know if the CC companies would agree with you on that. I am not entering into an agreement with The Butchers with my CC but with the voucher site. There were stories posted here about people trying to get their credit card company to intervene with Deal Getters and they weren't getting anywhere. I don't think a credit card can protect you in all cases especially when these deals get complicated through various voucher sites.

Long story short, I hope you post back your own personal results. Better yet, get someone else to go in and redeem the vouchers for you and let us know how THEY were treated . Sure, if you e-mail them an order from "Sos at Globaltv " (witty name btw) they will run to deliver your order in time and as promised. Put them to the true test if you want to be in a normal customers shoes.

[catwalk]

The deal is also on buytopia now. They are using Sean from Global TV's report to help sell these vouchers. (http://www.globaltoronto.com/video/index.html?releasePID=wMj3IFHNj54_J4zUBAlrC5impPde K3qQ) Shame on him for duping people into thinking this is a great deal. Maybe we should write to HIM when the bad starch-filled meat (or no meat at all) gets everyone mad and CC companies won't do anything about it.

I can't help but think he got something for spewing this crap on national television (he even advertises the coupon!). Shame on him doesn't even cover it.

[00cp]

Sean; lets so how good you feel about the deal when you get fatty BS meat, and sausages made with enough filler to stuff a fish. Will you be honest enough to update your story at that point?

[YLSF]

Here is a link to one of the CH threads:
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/772531

and this one:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/777288

If someone with a BUytopia account can post those up there too


Oh, and one other thing they "changed" was not being able to use more than one voucher. Most of the deal sites didn't have that restriction and from what I recall gave people contact information of who to CALL (yes, call, not email 5 days in advance) to get an order processed.

Marion is just milking this for everything he can at this point.

Sean, you should do a story about all of the other organic butchers in town that ARE scammers because in order for the Butchers to not lose their shirt on this those other butchers must be making a 400% mark up. You really have done a disservice to customers by featuring them in your news report without doing more research on them. I really hope it doesn't come back to bite you.

[Rehan]

So with about 3000 vouchers sold the past few days, that's $1,200,000 worth of meat for $300,000. Net cost: $900,000. Just in the past week alone. In addition to the millions earlier.

Wanna know why no reputable butcher shops are doing anything similar? Because it makes absolutely no sense from a business perspective. :facepalm:

[7jaii]

Sean; lets so how good you feel about the deal when you get fatty BS meat, and sausages made with enough filler to stuff a fish. Will you be honest enough to update your story at that point?

I thought good reporting required impartiality. Not all customers can drive up to The Butchers in a GlobalTV van with camera crew to check out this deal. Obviously Marion will roll out the red carpet and customers are likely to give a thumbs up... who's going to admit they're unhappy paying $30/lb for organic meat on TV?

Sean, you're an investigative reporter so investigate. Don't be a pawn in Malon's game - and I find it odd that you selected to cover The Butchers & WebPiggy (and sites selling vouchers) vs. reporting on a more accessible deal like $5 for $10 voucher for sandwiches.

So I'm looking forward to Sean's update in a couple months after The Butcher's voucher plays out, and more feedback from customers roll in. Unfortunately, Marlon will have all their money by then and credit card companies will be unable to refund purchases.

* Question for Sean to ask The Butchers & Deal Sites: how does The Butchers differentiate between early voucher buyers (those with less restrictions) vs. new buyers that have to follow the new rules? Also, how often do Deal Sites update restrictions after a voucher is sold.

[buddhababy]

Here's the thing that I can't understand - if this is all organic and/or naturally raised from local farmers, how is it the local farmers have any animals left? They can't grow them that fast and the first few rounds of vouchers should have pretty much wiped them out of stock.

[hugh chung]

Is it just me, or is the discussion part of buytopias new butcher coupon removed?

[shutterbug]

Here's the thing that I can't understand - if this is all organic and/or naturally raised from local farmers, how is it the local farmers have any animals left? They can't grow them that fast and the first few rounds of vouchers should have pretty much wiped them out of stock.

They can't! Here's more proof of their shady business practices.

http://trueler.com/2011/04/09/the-butchers-scam-webpiggy-dealfind/

[Diamond_Ace]

Will do!

Refund obtained today.

[angekfire]

They can't! Here's more proof of their shady business practices.

http://trueler.com/2011/04/09/the-butchers-scam-webpiggy-dealfind/

Awesome article. Very detailed and helpful.

This smells like a pinzi scheme to me. People invest with the promise of a huge return. Some of the people get it, which convices more people to invest. They keep using the money invested to supply results until they make enough where they can just take off with the profits and screw everybody.

Either that or they are misleading customers like the article suggests, and selling sub-par quality product for enormous prices.

[canguy9999]

People buy based on whether they see value. Price is an important component.

Before anyone cries "scam" on this business, perhaps they should have a closer look. Is the meat organically raised? Some of these posters seem to know the answer.

As a journalist who interviewed the proprietor and included the 100 for 400 dollar offer as part of my story on Global tonight, I didn't see the tell-tale signs of scam.
First, the company has been in business more than ten years. Not fly by night, that's for sure. Second, it's a real store front. Scam operators like to hide in boiler rooms and behind the scenes.
Next, and please remember this: if you buy a product or service using a credit card, and that product or service is not delivered, you can call your major credit card company and have the charge reversed. Plain and simple. I've done scores of stories where consumers paid cash and got nothing; where we're talking coupon companies, you're much better protected, in my view.

As I told one viewer who emailed me tonight, I bought three of the Webpiggy coupons personally and will see what happens. I interviewed customers outside the store (which was not even open on Monday, but the proprietor and staff opened the doors anyway) and I was told by the customers that they were satisfied with what they got.

Good to read the postings.

Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global News Consumer SOS
sos@globalnews.ca
1.866 SOS 1414 Toronto Feedback Line
twitter @consumersos

Hi Sean,

I think people jump on the word scam when they feel they have been mistreated. This isn't what I would call a scam, but there are definitely some questionable tactics with these deals. I'll try and give my full detailed description of my experience; I've only given certain portions of it before.

These deals started off deals such as the DealCatch.com deal of $25 for $50 worth of product. No restriction except for it expired in one year, and there was only one voucher per customer.

It moved onto a few others, got around to the Dealgetters.com deal which again didn't have any restrictions except one year expiry and one voucher per customer. $40 for $100 worth of product.

Up to the point of dealgetters no price lists had been publicly posted by The Butchers or any of the deal sites. People were reporting different pricing; as to why I started a thread about pricing here on Redflagdeals. I for one thought The Butchers deals were amazing at this point. I had great service, the prices were great, my items were packed with the price and weight on the bags, I had lots of selection.

Then things started to slowly change. I know some of it was so The Butchers could better accommodate its customers and I think I'm a bit more understanding to this then some people are, but I also believe it was partially out of greed or came from somewhere else.

The prices were raised shortly after the Dealgetters deal and around the time the first Webpiggy deal came about. I don't know if these prices were across the board, if maybe I got some discount my first visits that they never made me aware of, or if they some how undercharged me my first two visits. I really wish I had kept my first two receipts from this store. I didn't receive receipts on my next two visits but if I look up what I had bought and compare it to their current price list there is an increase of from my first purchase(which was a cash purchase) to my third visit where I bought the exact same items. I payed $35ish(cash) and paid $50(voucher) later for the same item Although I believe it actually came out to $51+ but they gave me the $1+ extra. Comparing my 2nd visit to the current price lists, I used a $100(voucher) adding up the items I purchased on the current price list it comes out to $145.45.

I also had personally noticed not as much care was being taken with my meat. It wasn't trimmed quite as well, or packaged quite as well; I'm not saying it was horrendously packed or trimmed, it just wasn't as good as my first visits. On a pre-order I made the meat didn't look as good as it did in their display. It looked darker, older like it had been exposed more to open air, again not that its too the point of it looking off as it was still very edible.

My last visit my complaints would be, the workers weren't as nice/friendly as they use to be, they didn't have cuts of meat available that they said they would. They actually told me they don't offer those cuts, even though I was told other wise by another employee. They questioned me on things they confirmed via e-mail that would be fine. Eventually I was sent on my way with my product. I didn't fight with them, but I didn't exactly feel welcome either.

Now all these restrictions have come out of the wood works, and I know a lot of it is truly to try and accommodate people, but how would you feel buying a gift certificate for a friend for their birthday with no restrictions, then suddenly they can't use it on weekends. Your friend lives far enough away that they don't get to that area on weekdays. They were once excited about it, but now? Its just pain and hassle to deal with.

I think The Butchers are starting to get their act together, that maybe you won't have issues with your vouchers. Maybe you still will. Either way I'd recommend having someone else make your first few orders for you, have them pick it up and ask them about their experience.

My guess is it won't be horrible, but if my experience with The Butchers is the norm, they will have a bit of hassle, they won't have as good of service that was once provided(not that they will know any differently). Top this with restrictions being placed after the fact, people having to deal with getting refunds and Credit Card charge backs, price increases, ect. This is where people are coming from when they use the word scam.

To you and me it might not be "scam" worthy, but you have to admit that there are some unfair practices.

[YLSF]

Here is a link to their past Dinesafe violations:

http://app.toronto.ca/food2/DineSafeMain?userRequest=view_history&ESTABLISHMENT_ID=9015608

Look back to 2009.... Looks like they have cleaned up their act since then.

I would like to see the pictures of the meat that was delivered to someone here with hair/dirt on it. Can someone please post the link.

[consumersos]

I thought good reporting required impartiality. Not all customers can drive up to The Butchers in a GlobalTV van with camera crew to check out this deal. Obviously Marion will roll out the red carpet and customers are likely to give a thumbs up... who's going to admit they're unhappy paying $30/lb for organic meat on TV?

Sean, you're an investigative reporter so investigate. Don't be a pawn in Malon's game - and I find it odd that you selected to cover The Butchers & WebPiggy (and sites selling vouchers) vs. reporting on a more accessible deal like $5 for $10 voucher for sandwiches.

So I'm looking forward to Sean's update in a couple months after The Butcher's voucher plays out, and more feedback from customers roll in. Unfortunately, Marlon will have all their money by then and credit card companies will be unable to refund purchases.

* Question for Sean to ask The Butchers & Deal Sites: how does The Butchers differentiate between early voucher buyers (those with less restrictions) vs. new buyers that have to follow the new rules? Also, how often do Deal Sites update restrictions after a voucher is sold.


Thanks for all of your comments--even the negative ones. (No, I didn't "get anything" from The Butchers as one poster said. That's the kind of uninformed commentary/opinion that you can't get away with working in media with libel laws, etc.)

Back to the story: if someone has a bona fide example of a scam here, send me an email: sos@globalnews.ca I will be happy to look it over.
And yes, I will get the coupon fulfilled with a third party and no reference to Global. I will be happy to report back how my expeirence went and what kind of meat was sold.

Cheers,

Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global TV Toronto sos@lobalnews.ca Twitter: @consumersos

[CSK'sMom]

Sean, I suggest you do some research into "organic" and "natural" regulations here in Ont and Canada. As someone who ran a beef operation for several years, I have a pretty good idea where he's buying his meat from. Suffice to say, it's not organic, natural or any other marketing term you want to slap on it. There is no possible way he's selling anything other than run of the feedlot beef that are nothing more than slow gainers left over from the fall slaughter season. ;)

[7jaii]

Thanks for all of your comments--even the negative ones. (No, I didn't "get anything" from The Butchers as one poster said. That's the kind of uninformed commentary/opinion that you can't get away with working in media with libel laws, etc.)
Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global TV Toronto sos@lobalnews.ca Twitter: @consumersos

Most veteran RFDers know the line between Scam & Difficult Deal - I didn't call this a scam. I did however question the process in which Marlon got his face on TV. Here and at other forums there are numerous questions regarding quantity of vouchers sold...this is a civil matter, I understand that. But If a reporter discover complaints then investigate, interview sources, test it yourself, and check if other organic butchers are willing to volume discount like Marlon's shop. Who is the supplier? RFD is the largest and most vocal group of consumers in Canada, many have been at this since 2001. Many RFDers experience first hand the "ins-n-outs" of deals, restrictions, coupons and promotions. It's rare to see so many RFDers be this vocal about The Butchers; they do so to protect consumers because there are no legislation (including Privacy) to protect every voucher purchaser.

A good deal isn't good value if you need to jump through hoop to fulfill it. I suspect if this was GM changing voucher conditions for cars, there would be more media interest. As I said, I look forward to updates as this situation progresses.

[SkiLLz]

There's a new group deal for them today. $99 for $400 of meat! And a limit of 20 vouchers per person!

What a deal!

[kator]

There's a new group deal for them today. $99 for $400 of meat! And a limit of 20 vouchers per person!

What a deal!

are you serious? where?

[angekfire]

Yes he is serious.

[kator]

Here is a link to their past Dinesafe violations:

http://app.toronto.ca/food2/DineSafeMain?userRequest=view_history&ESTABLISHMENT_ID=9015608

Look back to 2009.... Looks like they have cleaned up their act since then.

I would like to see the pictures of the meat that was delivered to someone here with hair/dirt on it. Can someone please post the link.

that was me that got the dirt and hair. pic is here: http://twitpic.com/4fq88y

[kator]

Yes he is serious.

:p it was a rhetorical question. but the other one asking where it was wasn't.

but i found it: https://buytopia.ca/

[sillysimms]

In the highlights of the latest group deal it says "Last group buying deal from The Butchers". Time will tell!

[kator]

Sean, I suggest you do some research into "organic" and "natural" regulations here in Ont and Canada. As someone who ran a beef operation for several years, I have a pretty good idea where he's buying his meat from. Suffice to say, it's not organic, natural or any other marketing term you want to slap on it. There is no possible way he's selling anything other than run of the feedlot beef that are nothing more than slow gainers left over from the fall slaughter season. ;)

can you give us a hint? or maybe tell sean from global were he should look?

[kator]

So with about 3000 vouchers sold the past few days, that's $1,200,000 worth of meat for $300,000. Net cost: $900,000. Just in the past week alone. In addition to the millions earlier.

Wanna know why no reputable butcher shops are doing anything similar? Because it makes absolutely no sense from a business perspective. :facepalm:

check out slide #8: http://www.slideshare.net/yipit/group-buying-by-the-numbers
"The Butchers – 69% off $627K revenue 11404 sold. Revenue Index: 18.5x"

That's just from *one* of those other deals. How many have their been in total? 7? 8?

Apparently they're breaking North American records

[consumersos]

[QUOTE=7jaii;12727469]Most veteran RFDers know the line between Scam & Difficult Deal - I didn't call this a scam. I did however question the process in which Marlon got his face on TV.


Fair question. I cold called him. I had tracked the volume of deals, sales, I media monitor the Toronto Star and read their report. I wanted to include the frenzy over the deals in my story about rising consumer prices. He agreed to an interview although the shop was closed on Monday. So, to be clear, I was not solicited on this. (On a daily basis I hear from a dozen or so publicists and others pitching their product/organization etc.)

Of interest today since I've been getting all this feedback from you all -- and I do appreciate it -- I got an emal from Buytopia's PR. They're out pitching a story about their deal with The Butchers. I will pass on that, of course, but promise to get back to you on how they fulfill our orders. PS: I have received some emails from members talking about their own experiences.

Thanks again, and if anyone ever has a consumer story idea, email me at sos@globalnews.ca or call my tipline at 1 866 SOS 1414.

Sean O'Shea, Global TV News consumer reporter. Twitter; @consumersos

[Survivor2008]

Just wanted to say how impressed I was with Dealticker today. I got my refund without any question for the Butchers voucher after they were unable to get in the product as was promised (Kosher organic meat) I would buy from Dealticker in a heartbeat and just amazed at how fast and efficiently they processed it - def. on par with Costco (which is for me a huge compliment) !

[kator]

[QUOTE=7jaii;12727469]Most veteran RFDers know the line between Scam & Difficult Deal - I didn't call this a scam. I did however question the process in which Marlon got his face on TV.


Fair question. I cold called him. I had tracked the volume of deals, sales, I media monitor the Toronto Star and read their report. I wanted to include the frenzy over the deals in my story about rising consumer prices. He agreed to an interview although the shop was closed on Monday. So, to be clear, I was not solicited on this. (On a daily basis I hear from a dozen or so publicists and others pitching their product/organization etc.)

Of interest today since I've been getting all this feedback from you all -- and I do appreciate it -- I got an emal from Buytopia's PR. They're out pitching a story about their deal with The Butchers. I will pass on that, of course, but promise to get back to you on how they fulfill our orders. PS: I have received some emails from members talking about their own experiences.

Thanks again, and if anyone ever has a consumer story idea, email me at sos@globalnews.ca or call my tipline at 1 866 SOS 1414.

Sean O'Shea, Global TV News consumer reporter. Twitter; @consumersos

when you place your orders can you find out where they are getting their meat from? they are refusing to tell people, and they've taken down the info that used to be on their site about the farms they used. in every other case, organic stores are open and proud about where their stuff comes from - it is a selling point of organic meat, knowing where it comes from.

[AAA]

[QUOTE=consumersos;12729045]

when you place your orders can you find out where they are getting their meat from? they are refusing to tell people, and they've taken down the info that used to be on their site about the farms they used. in every other case, organic stores are open and proud about where their stuff comes from - it is a selling point of organic meat, knowing where it comes from.

Quoting from Webpiggy back in Feb.,

"The Butchers is a local family-owned enterprises devoted to natural and organic methods of raising livestock include such farmers as Blue Haven Farm in Rockwood who grow exclusively for The Butchers, Fenwood Farm in Ancaster, who supplies chicken and turkey and Best Baa Farm in Conn, who supplies lamb and cheese made from sheep’s milk. More adventurous offerings include bison, ostrich, kangaroo and alligator. The owners have also installed a tandoor and a smoker."

“These are the same products you’ll find in the finest restaurants.”

[kator]

[QUOTE=kator;12729215]

Quoting from Webpiggy back in Feb.,

"The Butchers is a local family-owned enterprises devoted to natural and organic methods of raising livestock include such farmers as Blue Haven Farm in Rockwood who grow exclusively for The Butchers, Fenwood Farm in Ancaster, who supplies chicken and turkey and Best Baa Farm in Conn, who supplies lamb and cheese made from sheep’s milk. More adventurous offerings include bison, ostrich, kangaroo and alligator. The owners have also installed a tandoor and a smoker."

“These are the same products you’ll find in the finest restaurants.”

yeah, has anyone called to confirm? isnt it suspicious that information has been taken down from their site?

[buddhababy]

The Buytopia site says the following:

"With the exception of its most exotic options, The Butchers sources its meat and other foods from only the finest Toronto markets and farms throughout the Ontario region. We think it’s time you discovered the passion for livestock-raising in these local enterprises. Feel free to check out the devotion to natural and organic methods in some of their partners: Field Gate Organics, who grow exclusively for The Butchers; Cascadian Farms, who supplies chicken and turkey; Markham Meats, who supply Halal meats; and Best Baa Farm in Conn, who supplies lamb and cheese made from sheep’s milk."


The partners listed in the Buytopia deal is a little different from the Webpiggy partners listed.

Cascadian Farms is in Washington State; I didn't realize that chicken and turkey were considered "exotic".;)

Field Gate Organics has quite a few customers in addition to their "exclusive" partnership with the Butchers
http://www.fieldgateorganics.com/default.asp?contentID=583

I checked back on the original DealGetters deal and they didn't list the suppliers there.

[kator]

The Buytopia site says the following:

"With the exception of its most exotic options, The Butchers sources its meat and other foods from only the finest Toronto markets and farms throughout the Ontario region. We think it’s time you discovered the passion for livestock-raising in these local enterprises. Feel free to check out the devotion to natural and organic methods in some of their partners: Field Gate Organics, who grow exclusively for The Butchers; Cascadian Farms, who supplies chicken and turkey; Markham Meats, who supply Halal meats; and Best Baa Farm in Conn, who supplies lamb and cheese made from sheep’s milk."


The partners listed in the Buytopia deal is a little different from the Webpiggy partners listed. Cascadian Farms is in Washington State; I didn't realize that chicken and turkey were considered "exotic".;)

Field Gate Organics has quite a few customers in addition to their "exclusive" partnership with the Butchers
http://www.fieldgateorganics.com/default.asp?contentID=583

I checked back on the original DealGetters deal and they didn't list the suppliers there.

huh. if you google cascadian farms, the contact page takes you to: http://consumercontacts.generalmills.com/ConsolidatedContact.aspx?page=http://www.smallplanetfoods.com&js=True

they're general mills, based out of the states. that's not local!

[angekfire]

If its general mills I doubt it is organic either.

[buddhababy]

If its general mills I doubt it is organic either.

No, it's organic. http://www.cascadianfarm.com/

It was merged with Small Planet Foods which in turn was bought by General Mills, but it remains organic. However, their product line seems to be frozen fruits & vegetables, cereal, cereal bars, granola bars, frozen juice concentrates, jams and relish.

[canguy9999]

No, it's organic. http://www.cascadianfarm.com/

It was merged with Small Planet Foods which in turn was bought by General Mills, but it remains organic. However, their product line seems to be frozen fruits & vegetables, cereal, cereal bars, granola bars, frozen juice concentrates, jams and relish.

This isn't necessarily fact; but from who they are ordering in from and the distance, you think they are buying frozen, and/or very large bulk. This stuff has to be transported via refrigerated trucks quite a distance. I don't know enough about the meat business to guess on the implications either can cause, but it is interesting.

[00cp]

Since most people I've heard of, that choose to get home delivery, are receiving frozen meat, I think we're onto why they needed to close down a couple weeks ago to put in "more freezers" (as their website stated).

[kator]

No, it's organic. http://www.cascadianfarm.com/

It was merged with Small Planet Foods which in turn was bought by General Mills, but it remains organic. However, their product line seems to be frozen fruits & vegetables, cereal, cereal bars, granola bars, frozen juice concentrates, jams and relish.

but not actually meat? HMMM!

[kator]

omg

so i called cascadian farms (listed on buytopia as one of their suppliers: https://buytopia.ca/)

not only had they never heard of the butchers, they confirmed they DO NOT even carry meat!

[7jaii]

omg

so i called cascadian farms (listed on buytopia as one of their suppliers: https://buytopia.ca/)

not only had they never heard of the butchers, they confirmed they DO NOT even carry meat!

Let's see if Sean (Global) and Vanessa (Toronto Star) follows your lead.

Good sleuthing Nancy Drew!

[TinyTank]

i can't believe sean/global promoted this scam!!!

[canguy9999]

New info on the website. They were closed for part of the day for filming. Wonder who else is promoting this place on the news or elsewhere.

[drwilly13]

It honestly depends when you go to redeem your coupon. I went today and they had plenty of meat and the people were very friendly. The regular pricing is quite high but when you get a bag of meat that fills your freezer for $55, it is hard to complain. I am actually considering buying the latest deal because whether the meat was frozen or not (mine did not appear to be today) it is still a great deal.

[shutterbug]

It honestly depends when you go to redeem your coupon. I went today and they had plenty of meat and the people were very friendly. The regular pricing is quite high but when you get a bag of meat that fills your freezer for $55, it is hard to complain. I am actually considering buying the latest deal because whether the meat was frozen or not (mine did not appear to be today) it is still a great deal.

Have you been reading this thread at all? How can you possibly think about giving this shady business even more money? Frozen or not. It's now highly suspect whether this meat is even organic or good quality. Did you read the link about the sausage? In all my years on RFD, I have never seen a business as slimy as this. The media attention they are getting shows how lazy journalists have become in doing fluff pieces without doing any actual journalism.

[hugh chung]

The meat is frozen? do they have to tell you the meat has been previously frozen? i dont want frozen meat from these guys.

[Siefer999]

not defending them but it seems like some people don't have a clear understanding what organic means. it can be organic and still be crappy meat. organic doesnt automatically mean the meat is automatically well marbled all over

[easterclause]

For all you know, it could be human meat! :lol:

This gets more and more interesting.

[buddhababy]

No, it's organic. http://www.cascadianfarm.com/

It was merged with Small Planet Foods which in turn was bought by General Mills, but it remains organic. However, their product line seems to be frozen fruits & vegetables, cereal, cereal bars, granola bars, frozen juice concentrates, jams and relish.


This isn't necessarily fact; but from who they are ordering in from and the distance, you think they are buying frozen, and/or very large bulk. This stuff has to be transported via refrigerated trucks quite a distance. I don't know enough about the meat business to guess on the implications either can cause, but it is interesting.

What isn't necessarily fact?

[dealzuser]

It honestly depends when you go to redeem your coupon. I went today and they had plenty of meat and the people were very friendly. The regular pricing is quite high but when you get a bag of meat that fills your freezer for $55, it is hard to complain. I am actually considering buying the latest deal because whether the meat was frozen or not (mine did not appear to be today) it is still a great deal.

I concur that it's all about when you go. I left the store with a huge bag of meat (boneless chicken thighs mostly) for $50. I'm sure that I would have paid more at a regular grocery store. We're going to try the striploin tonight. :)


Have you been reading this thread at all? How can you possibly think about giving this shady business even more money? Frozen or not. It's now highly suspect whether this meat is even organic or good quality. Did you read the link about the sausage? In all my years on RFD, I have never seen a business as slimy as this. The media attention they are getting shows how lazy journalists have become in doing fluff pieces without doing any actual journalism.

If you read through the posts, the complaints typically is about:

1) Can't go on the weekends - and I agree, it's a change in the condition, but let's try to make the best of the situation...
2) Innuendos about the meat being bad - and the unprepared meat (not referring to the sausage) seems to be fine...
3) Bad service - but I can totally see some people going in to abuse the staff first (and I did see that when I went), or mostly going late or on the weekend when the selection is low and then complaining about it.

Mostly, it's just people complaining without facts. Sadly, it's almost typical for RFD folks to whine and complain... Let's just try to refrain from egging people on with baseless accusations. If there is something factual, then let's discuss those things (i.e. the organic farm listed by the deal site not being a livestock raising farm is an interesting discovery... Did someone actually find hormones or antibiotics or mad cow in the meat?)

I still have 4-5 left from the first deal, not thinking that they would be doing this over and over again. (And I agree - they're shooting themselves in the foot and cheapening the value of the product.) If the deal does come up again after I used them up, I may get 1-2...

[canguy9999]

What isn't necessarily fact?

We won't know if thats where they get their meat or all their meat from. We also don't know if it comes frozen, or if shipments are made bi-weekly to other accounts in the area so maybe its possible they can get part shipments in of fresh meat from this place a few times a week. Its probably unlikely, but we really don't know...so I'm not going to state it as fact.

As the poster above me has also stated, as much as their are some reasonable complaints I do think a lot of people are jumping on possible truths without us finding out all the information. Yes things should me more transparent and yes a lot of questionable pieces of information coming out but until we know they are fact we shouldn't be spreading it as fact.

[canguy9999]

I know people blow things out of proportion here so please don't jump to conclusions, but I want to know what people think...without going crazy about this...

http://www.marlonsmeat.com/

New website, new name. Is this some re branding that was well needed? It could be simple enough that the Fish store will be called Marlon's Fish. Since their proximity the re branding makes sense. Could it be in case The Butchers ends up with a bad name because of the group buys?

Because of the new name ect. Don't see this as a way they won't honor coupons, because really I don't think they have a legal way out of that. Plus keeping the location in the same place, there would be riots if they changes their name and stopped accepting coupons.

As a branding standpoint, I like the change. The website, logo ect is much better. The Butchers is such a general name, not that great for branding his business. Plus if you over hear someone say stay away from "The Butchers" you might not know what they are talking about. If you hear people say stay away from "Marlon's Meat Shop" you are more likely to understand the reference more.

If things do go wrong with the group buy deals, I don't think the re branding will save them at all.

[mabman]

as they processed my refund within 1 day of my request. Excellent customer service.

[angekfire]

If I overhear "Marlon's meat" I don't think a butcher shop is what will come to mind.

[ineedaname]

I concur that it's all about when you go. I left the store with a huge bag of meat (boneless chicken thighs mostly) for $50. I'm sure that I would have paid more at a regular grocery store. We're going to try the striploin tonight. :)



If you read through the posts, the complaints typically is about:

1) Can't go on the weekends - and I agree, it's a change in the condition, but let's try to make the best of the situation...
2) Innuendos about the meat being bad - and the unprepared meat (not referring to the sausage) seems to be fine...
3) Bad service - but I can totally see some people going in to abuse the staff first (and I did see that when I went), or mostly going late or on the weekend when the selection is low and then complaining about it.

Mostly, it's just people complaining without facts. Sadly, it's almost typical for RFD folks to whine and complain... Let's just try to refrain from egging people on with baseless accusations. If there is something factual, then let's discuss those things (i.e. the organic farm listed by the deal site not being a livestock raising farm is an interesting discovery... Did someone actually find hormones or antibiotics or mad cow in the meat?)

I still have 4-5 left from the first deal, not thinking that they would be doing this over and over again. (And I agree - they're shooting themselves in the foot and cheapening the value of the product.) If the deal does come up again after I used them up, I may get 1-2...

I've Read the whole thread and it seems like you did not. You're right that most ppl are just complaining or making judgement without facts however there have also been people that have shown facts.

1. The website below seems to clearly show that their meat is not really organic.
http://trueler.com/2011/04/09/the-butchers-scam-webpiggy-dealfind/

2. Another member has called one of the suppliers that they claim to be using and they claim to have never heard of "the butchers"

omg

so i called cascadian farms (listed on buytopia as one of their suppliers: https://buytopia.ca/)

not only had they never heard of the butchers, they confirmed they DO NOT even carry meat!

3. It does seem that they had health violations in the past (not the most recent but it is still noteworthy)
http://app.toronto.ca/food2/DineSafeMain?userRequest=view_history&ESTABLISHMENT_ID=9015608

Seems like there are other issues that are not confirmed but are plausible.

1. Seems like they are raising the prices for people with vouchers. (i haven't shopped with them in the past but if someone has then they could easily confirm this)

2. You have to admit it sounds really suspect that they keep going back for seconds for these vouchers.
They claim that they will stop doing vouchers because they can't handle the volume and that it's because they have a contract with the voucher sites.
Yet they continue to sign new contracts with new sites to do more vouchers for more money than before.
"Update April 7, 2011 We have been asked by many people why we continue to do these voucher deals. We agreed to do a specific # of deals and signed contracts so we are under contractual obligation. Once these contracts have been fulfilled we will no longer take part in these vouchers deals."

Some people don't consider this a scam but it does seem like a bait and switch to me.

[canguy9999]

I've Read the whole thread and it seems like you did not. You're right that most ppl are just complaining or making judgement without facts however there have also been people that have shown facts.

1. The website below seems to clearly show that their meat is not really organic.
http://trueler.com/2011/04/09/the-butchers-scam-webpiggy-dealfind/

2. Another member has called one of the suppliers that they claim to be using and they claim to have never heard of "the butchers"


3. It does seem that they had health violations in the past (not the most recent but it is still noteworthy)
http://app.toronto.ca/food2/DineSafeMain?userRequest=view_history&ESTABLISHMENT_ID=9015608

Seems like there are other issues that are not confirmed but are plausible.

1. Seems like they are raising the prices for people with vouchers. (i haven't shopped with them in the past but if someone has then they could easily confirm this)

2. You have to admit it sounds really suspect that they keep going back for seconds for these vouchers.
They claim that they will stop doing vouchers because they can't handle the volume and that it's because they have a contract with the voucher sites.
Yet they continue to sign new contracts with new sites to do more vouchers for more money than before.
"Update April 7, 2011 We have been asked by many people why we continue to do these voucher deals. We agreed to do a specific # of deals and signed contracts so we are under contractual obligation. Once these contracts have been fulfilled we will no longer take part in these vouchers deals."

Some people don't consider this a scam but it does seem like a bait and switch to me.

I don't know how clear it is, that link is interesting but doesn't prove that the product is not organic. It proves there is starch; which may or may not be an organic starch. It also may prove that there are preservative. There are natural and organic preservatives that could have been used. Just because its organic or natural doesn't mean it has to be a 100% clean product containing only meat and seasonings.

[ineedaname]

I don't know how clear it is, that link is interesting but doesn't prove that the product is not organic. It proves there is starch; which may or may not be an organic starch. It also may prove that there are preservative. There are natural and organic preservatives that could have been used. Just because its organic or natural doesn't mean it has to be a 100% clean product containing only meat and seasonings.

You're right. I don't know how everyone defines "organic". But either way the point of my last post was to show that not everyone who has been posting here is just whining about unfounded issues and that there are people who have raised valid complaints.

[canguy9999]

You're right. I don't know how everyone defines "organic". But either way the point of my last post was to show that not everyone who has been posting here is just whining about unfounded issues and that there are people who have raised valid complaints.

There are definitely some valid complaints. I was one of the first to jump on the price increase. But we also can't start pushing unproved facts like that the products aren't organic/natural as fact.

[angekfire]

Even if it hasn't been proven "fact" they the meat isn't organic, they have still participated in a number of unethical and shady business practices.

1-Despite having all these 'contracts' for deals, they haven't all been for the same amount. I also highly doubt all these places came to them at the exact same time, since it is on several different sites. Having a deal with webpiggy for 3 deals, sure, that is plausible. Having signed contracts for different pricing on 5-6 different deal sites for different times seems like a stretch. Sure, theoretically possible though.

2-They have changed the terms of the contracts they have obviously agreed to initially. The terms of use of he coucher were changed as to when they could be used, and if they were stackable. They deliberately reduced store hours to make it even more difficult. They won't accept them on weekends, and now require 5 days notice in advance? So let me get this straight. They signed 6 or so contracts, all of which in advance because they "can't keep up with demand", which they would have realized after the first 2 deals went nuts. They continue to honor these contracts which they are "taking such a loss on", but yet aren't willing to honor the rest of the stipulations of the contract (Such as being able to stack them, being able to walk in and use them without ordering in advance, not usable every day), and funny how the new contracts which were "signed before so they are obligated to continue with" have different stipulations than the other original ones.

3-There has been documented evidence that they have increased their prices since the original deal. THere has also been quite a bit of anecdotal evidence to support this.

4-The quality of meat is sub par, even if it is "technically organic", but considering the cases on the sausage as documented in the link states that they are clearly artificial, that would lead me to believe they are not only low quality, but are certainly not 'all natural'. I also question where they acquire "organic" artificial sausage casings. But yes, technically it could still be 'organic'. It depends on what has their certification. If it is only the farm in which it is raised, then the meat exported from there is organic. However, the certification does not always include preparation processes, so if it is sent to a slaughterhouse that isn't certified, yes, technically the sausage is made with "100% certified organic meat" but that doesn't mean the final product itself is organic. So while they may not be lying outright, they could be taking advantage of a loophole in their advertising. According to this link: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/orgbio/questslabe.shtml

5-As demonstrated by the person who called their 'supplier' (I believe it was Kator), they have at the very least lied to their customers about where their product comes from. This obviously makes it impossible to track whether the product is infact organic or locally raised, but as demonstrated by the sausage once more, the casings are clearly artificial which would indicate not.

6-The fact that the meat has been (as evidenced in the link, and also through some anecdotal evidence) frozen for delivery or transport makes it difficult to tell exactly how "fresh" the meat is. How long has it been frozen? How far did it this 'locally raised' meat have to travel in order for it to make it to the store, let alone your house, since apparently, simple refridgeration wouldn't cut it.

The bottom line being, even if the meat is legally organic and can be advertised as such, that doesn't negate all the other shady practices this company has engaged in.

[zoro69]

I know people blow things out of proportion here so please don't jump to conclusions, but I want to know what people think...without going crazy about this...

http://www.marlonsmeat.com/

New website, new name. Is this some re branding that was well needed? It could be simple enough that the Fish store will be called Marlon's Fish. Since their proximity the re branding makes sense. Could it be in case The Butchers ends up with a bad name because of the group buys?

Because of the new name ect. Don't see this as a way they won't honor coupons, because really I don't think they have a legal way out of that. Plus keeping the location in the same place, there would be riots if they changes their name and stopped accepting coupons.

As a branding standpoint, I like the change. The website, logo ect is much better. The Butchers is such a general name, not that great for branding his business. Plus if you over hear someone say stay away from "The Butchers" you might not know what they are talking about. If you hear people say stay away from "Marlon's Meat Shop" you are more likely to understand the reference more.

If things do go wrong with the group buy deals, I don't think the re branding will save them at all.

If that is happening, this must be the worst run business in history. If you want to assume their intention with the group deals has always been on the up and up, why on earth would you spend that to generate publicity only to abandon the name? you'd do it after the new name so the news reports were touting your new name.

If on the other hand the new name will appear on a business with a different corporate entity(relative or different numbered corp becomes the owner of the "new' store) then they can abandon the vouchers from the no longer in existent butchers.

personally i don't believe selling $millions of vouchers at up to 75% off has ever been on the up and up.

[canguy9999]

If that is happening, this must be the worst run business in history. If you want to assume their intention with the group deals has always been on the up and up, why on earth would you spend that to generate publicity only to abandon the name? you'd do it after the new name so the news reports were touting your new name.

If on the other hand the new name will appear on a business with a different corporate entity(relative or different numbered corp becomes the owner of the "new' store) then they can abandon the vouchers from the no longer in existent butchers.

personally i don't believe selling $millions of vouchers at up to 75% off has ever been on the up and up.

Oh I agree. My only thought is, they had planned on changing over after the Fish Shop opened, also even though I found this new site, doesn't mean they will move over in the next few months.

As far as abandoning the vouchers, I'm not a lawyer so I can't say for certain if that could happen, but I highly doubt that it could happen. The way the site is registered and links between the two companies, I don't think they could afford or win the court battle some deal sites would bring down upon them.

[angekfire]

personally i don't believe selling $millions of vouchers at up to 75% off has ever been on the up and up.

I can see a new company, or small existing company doing a group deal at 75% off. Perhaps the owner is inexperienced, or whatever. But I think even naive or inexperienced places would sign a single contract first and say "Lets see how this plays out and we will discuss future deals" rather than saying "6 different sites want to do this? Sure, sign me up!"

Yes, these are effectively advertising. You are losing a bit of money to generate new clients by exposing them to your shop, in hopes of gaining them as a long term customer. But doing 6 of these deals at as much as 75% off, with unlimited vouchers per person isn't bringing in new clients with hopes they'll buy stuff at full price later. These people are going to just stock up on vouchers and you'll never see a dime from them outside of what they spent on vouchers. And the fact of the matter is the vouchers are basically causing the company to lose money. I don't see how you can sustain selling your product at a 75% discount to everyone for the foreseeable future unless either you have no intentions of actually honouring the vouchers (By taking off with the profits ponzi scheme style), or if you inflate your already high prices to ridiculous levels, and reduce your quality to the lowest standards, so you are getting your product for cheap with over a 75% mark-up. Only way you are going to get product that cheap is by getting the lowest quality you can find, with the cost at the highest you can get away with.

Those are really the only ways they can go short of simply declaring bankruptcy, or treating the customers so poorly they all just ask for refunds for their vouchers from the deal site. Thus the butchers have made all the money they wanted and the deal sites are taking the loss.

[angekfire]

As far as abandoning the vouchers, I'm not a lawyer so I can't say for certain if that could happen, but I highly doubt that it could happen. The way the site is registered and links between the two companies, I don't think they could afford or win the court battle some deal sites would bring down upon them.

It would largely depend on the contract signed between the groupon type site, and the butchers. Since there haven't been any legal battles to my knowledge between companies and these sites, there is almost certainly no legislation in place to protect either side from eachother outside of what is stipulated in the contract. If there is no clause about what if the company closes while the groupons are still valid, then they can easily close the business and open a new one, and there will be very little protection for the groupon site. In which case the site is basically out of business. Either they give everyone the refunds which I doubt they can afford to do, or they take a huge hit as negative publicity spreads and nobody is willing to deal with them again, thus no longer having customers means the site has to close.

So unless one side takes the other to court and the judge rules differently, there may not be anything that can be done.

hile I hope nobody gets burned, it seems like that is a quite real possibility.

[pakmode]

To be honest, my biggest concern has always been these Butcher deals are predicated on greed and are unsustainable.

They're Madoff-eque in nature, and will continue to increase until one day there's a run at the bank. By that time it will be too late. Thousands of voucher holders will be left with nothing but pdf documents and online rants.

They have sold 2000 Buytopia vouchers, coupled with the 4000 Webgreedypig vouchers - that's $600,000 for $2,400,000 worth of product. Excluding the deals where they sold 1000's of vouchers before.

Call me a fear monger all you want. But we just witnessed 2 of the 5 biggest US investbank banks fail a couple years ago - and they were too big to fail. So if it can happen on the level of Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns, it can happen in a New York minute to the Botchers. Granted Lehman was leveraged 66:1 in some areas, but when people take a run at the Bank, they evaporate literally overnight. This concerns me because there are 40+ Toronto group buy sites out there now, and one of these greedy piggys is going to screw it up for everybody.

My guess is at some point something's gotta give and we may see some of the following:
> The Botchers either rename businesses and leave everybody hanging - including the group buy brokers.
> The group buy brokers close down or change their name leaving there vouchers worthless.
> The Botchers closes down, causing people to run for the exits with Webpiggy et all - causing these sites to bankrupt.
> OR The Botchers supply product at an inflated price.

Remember, somebody who had purchased the first voucher in December now finds inflation has eaten away at the original value. There are set prices now which is good. But tell that to somebody who bought in December.

[toliiy]

It’s interesting to see the differences in opinion from people’s experiences with “the butchers”. Specifically there’s a blogger who decided to do his own experiment and offers a counter argument:

http://www.foodwithlegs.com/?p=2976

[kator]

if anyone wants to follow up, i was given the names of the current suppliers of the butchers from buytopia. buytopia also tells me the supplier originally listed on their site cascadian farms (who i called yesterday to discover they didnt even produce meat) was a typo and it should have been acadian quality beef. i believe them on that one. but i have yet to properly check out about these places, other than i think 1.) seems legit. the question is tho, how much is coming from her and how much is coming from somewhere else, and how do you know what you're buying.

1) Field Gate Organics - Heather
2) Acadian Quality Beef (Naturally raised products) - Eddie 416-763-0003
3) Markham Meats - Ian

[canguy9999]

Even if it hasn't been proven "fact" they the meat isn't organic, they have still participated in a number of unethical and shady business practices.

1-Despite having all these 'contracts' for deals, they haven't all been for the same amount. I also highly doubt all these places came to them at the exact same time, since it is on several different sites. Having a deal with webpiggy for 3 deals, sure, that is plausible. Having signed contracts for different pricing on 5-6 different deal sites for different times seems like a stretch. Sure, theoretically possible though.

I totally agree. A bit shady.


2-They have changed the terms of the contracts they have obviously agreed to initially. The terms of use of he coucher were changed as to when they could be used, and if they were stackable. They deliberately reduced store hours to make it even more difficult. They won't accept them on weekends, and now require 5 days notice in advance? So let me get this straight. They signed 6 or so contracts, all of which in advance because they "can't keep up with demand", which they would have realized after the first 2 deals went nuts. They continue to honor these contracts which they are "taking such a loss on", but yet aren't willing to honor the rest of the stipulations of the contract (Such as being able to stack them, being able to walk in and use them without ordering in advance, not usable every day), and funny how the new contracts which were "signed before so they are obligated to continue with" have different stipulations than the other original ones.

Some of this I could accept personally if it wasn't followed by more terms changes. But which deals ever allowed stacking? To my knowledge none really did, although I could be wrong and missed one or two deals since they've done so many. Other then the first few deals had a limit of 1 certificate and they didn't say only one per visit. So technically I guess you could use two of those different certs together. Some later certs were stackable if per ordered. I believe these ones are still available for stacking. They just will no longer stack earlier deals that didn't specifically allow for it.

Not allowing certs on weekends I see being as a HUGE issue. They should never have done that. If they wanted to stop so many people coming in on the weekend they could have found other ways that would have been more acceptable to deal with this.

I also find the contract deal to be fishier then Marlons Fish Store.


3-There has been documented evidence that they have increased their prices since the original deal. THere has also been quite a bit of anecdotal evidence to support this.

Thats why the pricing thread was started. I experienced the price increase first hand.


4-The quality of meat is sub par, even if it is "technically organic", but considering the cases on the sausage as documented in the link states that they are clearly artificial, that would lead me to believe they are not only low quality, but are certainly not 'all natural'. I also question where they acquire "organic" artificial sausage casings. But yes, technically it could still be 'organic'. It depends on what has their certification. If it is only the farm in which it is raised, then the meat exported from there is organic. However, the certification does not always include preparation processes, so if it is sent to a slaughterhouse that isn't certified, yes, technically the sausage is made with "100% certified organic meat" but that doesn't mean the final product itself is organic. So while they may not be lying outright, they could be taking advantage of a loophole in their advertising. According to this link: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/orgbio/questslabe.shtml

These certificates never came along with a quality guarantee; and I think there are probably very mixed reviews on the actual quality. With that, most of the meat I've had from the butchers has been superior to normal grocery store meat. In the article again, it doesn't clearly state the casings are artificial. It was an opinion; there are other reasons casings can act that way. I'm also against jumping on this opinion because I have had the sausages from The Butchers and although I didn't enjoy the sausages, they did have natural casings.


5-As demonstrated by the person who called their 'supplier' (I believe it was Kator), they have at the very least lied to their customers about where their product comes from. This obviously makes it impossible to track whether the product is infact organic or locally raised, but as demonstrated by the sausage once more, the casings are clearly artificial which would indicate not.

Not impossible, there were other suppliers listed, people just have to call them. I would hope one of the journalists reading about this story would do so. That once case again is very fishy but doesn't mean they don't buy organic product.


6-The fact that the meat has been (as evidenced in the link, and also through some anecdotal evidence) frozen for delivery or transport makes it difficult to tell exactly how "fresh" the meat is. How long has it been frozen? How far did it this 'locally raised' meat have to travel in order for it to make it to the store, let alone your house, since apparently, simple refridgeration wouldn't cut it.

Where has it been proven that the meat is frozen? Still hasn't been proven anywhere. Simple refrigeration could cut it, but if they are buying product from the previously listed suppliers in the U.S. yes it would travel a distance. Frozen is the most likely option yes, but we do get fresh meat shipped to Canada that is not frozen also.


The bottom line being, even if the meat is legally organic and can be advertised as such, that doesn't negate all the other shady practices this company has engaged in.

We agree on some shady practices.

[kator]

It’s interesting to see the differences in opinion from people’s experiences with “the butchers”. Specifically there’s a blogger who decided to do his own experiment and offers a counter argument:

http://www.foodwithlegs.com/?p=2976

he went with marlon and buytopia there, expecting them.

my house is often a mess. it's not hard for me to clean it up when i know company is coming over

[kator]

I totally agree. A bit shady.



Some of this I could accept personally if it wasn't followed by more terms changes. But which deals ever allowed stacking? To my knowledge none really did, although I could be wrong and missed one or two deals since they've done so many. Other then the first few deals had a limit of 1 certificate and they didn't say only one per visit. So technically I guess you could use two of those different certs together. Some later certs were stackable if per ordered. I believe these ones are still available for stacking. They just will no longer stack earlier deals that didn't specifically allow for it.



my webpiggy vouchers had no clause limiting number used, AND they *clearly* said you could get veggies and prepared foods (it was in the title of the deal), which they refused to honour as well.

you can see it here (thanks to google cache): http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BNAasU9rM9kJ:https://www.webpiggy.com/deals/side_deal/486

[gr1mey]

It’s interesting to see the differences in opinion from people’s experiences with “the butchers”. Specifically there’s a blogger who decided to do his own experiment and offers a counter argument:

http://www.foodwithlegs.com/?p=2976

Oh look! It is a member of Buytopia's staff here to win us over with their deft understanding of astroturfing and social media.

Slag off you moron.

[canguy9999]

my webpiggy vouchers had no clause limiting number used, AND they *clearly* said you could get veggies and prepared foods (it was in the title of the deal), which they refused to honour as well.

you can see it here (thanks to google cache): http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BNAasU9rM9kJ:https://www.webpiggy.com/deals/side_deal/486

"Cannot be combined with other offers." Which means two certificates can't be combined; at least normally. Thats how I took it when I purchased that deal.

I know some had issues buying other products. I for one haven't, I don't know what would happen when you walk in now, but I don't foresee you having trouble with that any longer. Partially because they have probably rid the store of anything they don't want to see on vouchers, or increased their mark-ups but still.

[gr1mey]

It’s interesting to see the differences in opinion from people’s experiences with “the butchers”. Specifically there’s a blogger who decided to do his own experiment and offers a counter argument:

http://www.foodwithlegs.com/?p=2976

And while we're on the subject, your shill @ortdavid has been refusing to post comments which call that blog post into question (I will post screenshots if he continues to moderate fair responses). First you take down your discussion board, now you try to anonymously bolster the validity of this deal?

You need to figure out how to run a business. You guys are seriously in over your heads. Shameful.

[canguy9999]

Oh look! It is a member of Buytopia's staff here to win us over with their deft understanding of astroturfing and social media.

Slag off you moron.

Food With Legs has been around for years. Although there is always the possibility he is friends with someone at Buytopia/The Butchers, my guess is hes not going to do a totally bias review and lose credibility. Although I guess you never know these days.

Another posting where someone said they could have cleaned shop before he arrives would be a more likely scenario but we really don't know one way or the other.

[gr1mey]

Food With Legs has been around for years. Although there is always the possibility he is friends with someone at Buytopia/The Butchers, my guess is hes not going to do a totally bias review and lose credibility. Although I guess you never know these days.

Another posting where someone said they could have cleaned shop before he arrives would be a more likely scenario but we really don't know one way or the other.

He is moderating the comment section and won't post comments critical of the deal/shop.

[canguy9999]

He is moderating the comment section and won't post comments critical of the deal/shop.

I guess it depends on what hes moderating. On a site like his I'd probably moderate things such as "It's frozen meat and NOT ORGANIC! AHHHH!" No facts, I'd get rid of it too. If its stating peoples own experiences ect. it should be allowed. But then you'd also have to compare it to how he has moderated past topics.

[gr1mey]

I guess it depends on what hes moderating. On a site like his I'd probably moderate things such as "It's frozen meat and NOT ORGANIC! AHHHH!" No facts, I'd get rid of it too. If its stating peoples own experiences ect. it should be allowed. But then you'd also have to compare it to how he has moderated past topics.

Perhaps he shouldn't be calling other people's motives into question then. http://twitter.com/#!/ortdavid/statuses/58595770017914880

[trixR4kids]

as they processed my refund within 1 day of my request. Excellent customer service.

LMAO Natalie, if you weren't impressed with the Dealfind's customer service, did you think you would still have a job?

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-young-pricing-1003275/3/#post12488826


@Mark- Yes, all of their meat is Organic & Naturally raised.

Thank you for using Dealfind!

Natalie
Customer Satisfaction Expert
Dealfind.com

[AcidBomber]

i lol'd... :arrowu::arrowu::arrowu:

[xt21]

Epic research fail. If you read the post before that one you would clearly know that mabman is not NATALIE.

[kator]

LMAO Natalie, if you weren't impressed with the Dealfind's customer service, did you think you would still have a job?

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-young-pricing-1003275/3/#post12488826

i can vouch for mabman that he's real and def not natalie

[buddhababy]

Dear Canguy9999

When Kator posted the Webpiggy list of suppliers for the Butchers:



Quoting from Webpiggy back in Feb.,

"The Butchers is a local family-owned enterprises devoted to natural and organic methods of raising livestock include such farmers as Blue Haven Farm in Rockwood who grow exclusively for The Butchers, Fenwood Farm in Ancaster, who supplies chicken and turkey and Best Baa Farm in Conn, who supplies lamb and cheese made from sheep’s milk. More adventurous offerings include bison, ostrich, kangaroo and alligator. The owners have also installed a tandoor and a smoker."

“These are the same products you’ll find in the finest restaurants.”

I posted the list of suppliers that Buytopia stated supplied The Butchers: (Note first sentence)
The Buytopia site says the following:

"With the exception of its most exotic options, The Butchers sources its meat and other foods from only the finest Toronto markets and farms throughout the Ontario region. We think it’s time you discovered the passion for livestock-raising in these local enterprises. Feel free to check out the devotion to natural and organic methods in some of their partners: Field Gate Organics, who grow exclusively for The Butchers; Cascadian Farms, who supplies chicken and turkey; Markham Meats, who supply Halal meats; and Best Baa Farm in Conn, who supplies lamb and cheese made from sheep’s milk."


The partners listed in the Buytopia deal is a little different from the Webpiggy partners listed.

Cascadian Farms is in Washington State; I didn't realize that chicken and turkey were considered "exotic".;)

Field Gate Organics has quite a few customers in addition to their "exclusive" partnership with the Butchers
http://www.fieldgateorganics.com/default.asp?contentID=583

I checked back on the original DealGetters deal and they didn't list the suppliers there.

I also noted the fact that Cascadian Farms was in Washington State, which Kator then went on to discover herself in this post, wherein she brought up the General Mills connection and then Angekfire questioned the organic certification.


huh. if you google cascadian farms, the contact page takes you to: http://consumercontacts.generalmills.com/ConsolidatedContact.aspx?page=http://www.smallplanetfoods.com&js=True

they're general mills, based out of the states. that's not local!


If its general mills I doubt it is organic either.

To which I responded that Cascadian Farms, although now a subsiduary of General Mills remains organic and pointed out that they only seem to carry fruit and vegetable products.

No, it's organic. http://www.cascadianfarm.com/

It was merged with Small Planet Foods which in turn was bought by General Mills, but it remains organic. However, their product line seems to be frozen fruits & vegetables, cereal, cereal bars, granola bars, frozen juice concentrates, jams and relish.

Then you jump in with the following:

This isn't necessarily fact; but from who they are ordering in from and the distance, you think they are buying frozen, and/or very large bulk. This stuff has to be transported via refrigerated trucks quite a distance. I don't know enough about the meat business to guess on the implications either can cause, but it is interesting.


We won't know if thats where they get their meat or all their meat from. We also don't know if it comes frozen, or if shipments are made bi-weekly to other accounts in the area so maybe its possible they can get part shipments in of fresh meat from this place a few times a week. Its probably unlikely, but we really don't know...so I'm not going to state it as fact.

As the poster above me has also stated, as much as their are some reasonable complaints I do think a lot of people are jumping on possible truths without us finding out all the information. Yes things should me more transparent and yes a lot of questionable pieces of information coming out but until we know they are fact we shouldn't be spreading it as fact.

Nowhere did I say anything about the Butchers getting all their meat from Cascadian Farms. BUYTOPIA said Cascadian Farms was a supplier (specifically of chicken and turkey) to the Butchers, as well as two other suppliers (one of whom is puportedly a cheese supplier). I posted all three suppliers as listed by Buytopia and pointed out that one supplier (Cascadian Farms) is in the US and it only seems to supply fruits and vegetables products which include (as listed on the Cascadian Farms website) frozen fruits, frozen vegetable and frozen juice concentrate. So why you're jumping on me about frozen meat, or the frequency of meat deliveries, I have no idea.

I don't appreciate having my comments misrepresented or the inference that I am a liar.

[ineedaname]

Anyways guys its only 4 more hours till the deal's over and we'll see if this one is really their last.

[Rehan]

Next round on the deal sites will be at this one: http://bit.ly/9Wp60U :lol:
That would be pretty funny (and sad), but I could never see it happening.

[foodwithlegs]

Perhaps he shouldn't be calling other people's motives into question then. http://twitter.com/#!/ortdavid/statuses/58595770017914880

gr1mey et al:

1. Comments had not been approved because I was away from the computer. I have nothing to hide. Though I do reserve the right to not approve any comment especially if it is anonymous, libelous, or lacks evidence.

2. The Trueler piece that has been spread very widely is, in my opinion, seriously flawed. I have said all I want to about his/her "tests" in my two posts http://bit.ly/gDdvtE and http://bit.ly/dGZyjf

3. In my second post I was abundantly clear that Marlon knew who I was and that I visited with some of the staff from buytopia. Sometimes an anonymous visit is possible and more useful. This time I opted to let buytopia introduce us and talked to Marlon so that I could get as much information as possible within the short window. If I had gone in yesterday, without him knowing who I was, I am fairly certain that I would have gotten meat that was indistinguishably of the same quality as what we cooked. Those who are intent on finding fault with this deal would have done so on the claim that he was generally picking up quality during the voucher sale period.

4. I wholeheartedly stand by my assertion that DineTO and their affiliates should not be attacking other deal sites or forwarding messages on Twitter that do so without clearly stating their relationship with Dealicious.

In this capacity I am a food blogger. I make no claims to any expertise on the economics of the deal(s) offered. You make your own decisions and caveat emptor but all I ask is that we leave time for asking questions and actually tasting the food before we level some pretty serious accusations. I'm not a regular on this forum so please don't take any lack of further reply as anything more than an indication that I haven't read what you've said.

[EL820]

I just came across this thread today. I emailed DealFind for a full refund on two vouchers purchased on Feb 25, 2011. The 30 days refund period has elapsed. Are people getting a refund from DealFind past the 30 day period?

[Rehan]

Hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha ha!!!

Buytopia now says: "DUE TO POPULAR DEMAND, THIS DEAL HAS BEEN EXTENDED TO SATURDAY AT 11:59PM"

:facepalm:

[sickgirl96]

add another 5 days from www.dealticker.com

so much for buyopia being the last

[Thedbs]

In the highlights of the latest group deal it says "Last group buying deal from The Butchers". Time will tell!

Well, that seemed to be another lie since DealTicker is offering another one today!!!
DealTicker, who I asked for a refund from on Monday via email and called yesterday, keeps passing the buck and I can't get a straight answer from.

[mabman]

http://trueler.com/2011/04/15/where-the-butchers-organic-meats-come-from/

[canguy9999]

Dear Canguy9999

When Kator posted the Webpiggy list of suppliers for the Butchers:


I posted the list of suppliers that Buytopia stated supplied The Butchers: (Note first sentence)

I also noted the fact that Cascadian Farms was in Washington State, which Kator then went on to discover herself in this post, wherein she brought up the General Mills connection and then Angekfire questioned the organic certification.

To which I responded that Cascadian Farms, although now a subsiduary of General Mills remains organic and pointed out that they only seem to carry fruit and vegetable products.

Then you jump in with the following:

Nowhere did I say anything about the Butchers getting all their meat from Cascadian Farms. BUYTOPIA said Cascadian Farms was a supplier (specifically of chicken and turkey) to the Butchers, as well as two other suppliers (one of whom is puportedly a cheese supplier). I posted all three suppliers as listed by Buytopia and pointed out that one supplier (Cascadian Farms) is in the US and it only seems to supply fruits and vegetables products which include (as listed on the Cascadian Farms website) frozen fruits, frozen vegetable and frozen juice concentrate. So why you're jumping on me about frozen meat, or the frequency of meat deliveries, I have no idea.

I don't appreciate having my comments misrepresented or the inference that I am a liar.

Ok, the only thing I was referring to that wasn't necessarily fact was that the meat wasn't organic.

I didn't jump all over you or call you a liar. The matter is regardless of what supplier you've dug up that may or may not have organic product doesn't mean the meat isn't organic.

The Butchers can be sourcing organic fruits for marinades they could be getting a number of things from any of these suppliers. Also just because a company on their website doesn't have a certain product doesn't mean they don't sell it.

I know many food companies who sell products out of their normal categories to food service and industrial customers.

[bigphil26]

add another 5 days from www.dealticker.com

so much for buyopia being the last

I would be willing to bet they will have more as they are probably have a good cashflow right now but in a month or 2 when they have redeemed a bunch of vouchers, they will need cash to keep going or they will go bankrupt and just have thier new fish store and everyone holding on to those vouchers will be screwed.

[canguy9999]

"Important Message April 15 2011: The Deal Ticker ad that went out this morning is not valid. Please contact Deal Ticker is you have any questions/concerns. We promised this was our last voucher deal so please note the Buytopia deal that ends this weekend will be the last group deal as originally specified."

How does something like that happen? If they were on all these contracts ahead of time how does this deal get posted on Deal Ticker without it being a major screw up on one of the two sides.

Anyways Buytopias extended deal seems to be the last....for now.

[hugh chung]

They can't! Here's more proof of their shady business practices.

http://trueler.com/2011/04/09/the-butchers-scam-webpiggy-dealfind/

i think he should have had a control sausage from a source he knows is organic to make his point better...

but anyways, maybe the filler in the butcher sausages are similar to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrC4e3Fn-LQ&feature=player_embedded

[YLSF]

David,

What did Dine.to say exactly? I can't seem to find it. I know Fabfind (or something saying they were Fabfind) commented on the situation


If David is the same guy I think it is (met you at Buster Rhino's Tasting with Suresh, Nina, etc) than I have no reason to doubt that he is giving anything but his honest opinion.

However, being there with Buytopia staff would have a serious impact on how you were treated. I should have passed on one of the original deals when I got some really bad customer service on the phone, but, I ended up buying 2. Still waiting for a refund of my 2nd voucher. The first experience was just "okay" but I was shocked when they started changing the terms and conditions (i.e. no use on weekends, etc). That is just BS and I will not support a business that does that. They also did get rid of all of their other products (didn't see any prepared foods when I went... I was interested in meat pies) and I have never seen any of the exotic meats that they promoted so highly in the deal promos (if I have to order 5 days in advance, or more, that is crazy).

[mabman]

http://trueler.com/2011/04/15/where-the-butchers-organic-meats-come-from/
AND
http://trueler.com/2011/04/09/the-butchers-scam-webpiggy-dealfind/

[7jaii]

Hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha ha!!!

Buytopia now says: "DUE TO POPULAR DEMAND, THIS DEAL HAS BEEN EXTENDED TO SATURDAY AT 11:59PM"

:facepalm:


add another 5 days from www.dealticker.com

so much for buyopia being the last


"Important Message April 15 2011: The Deal Ticker ad that went out this morning is not valid. Please contact Deal Ticker is you have any questions/concerns. We promised this was our last voucher deal so please note the Buytopia deal that ends this weekend will be the last group deal as originally specified."

How does something like that happen? If they were on all these contracts ahead of time how does this deal get posted on Deal Ticker without it being a major screw up on one of the two sides.

Anyways Buytopias extended deal seems to be the last....for now.

So many layers of craziness. If The Butchers was selling in BST, JAC & crew would all over this mess. How can they churn so many vouchers and how is the cashflow going to meet voucher redemption?

More importantly, does this deep discount reflect the mark up of Organic Meat in Toronto? If not, and this was meant to advertise the business through a "loss leader" it's a strange decision. Even large corporations like Dell, Staples, The Bay, Telus, Loblaws...promotions/loss leaders are strictly limited. Is it even possible for one shop to purchase that much meat?

I'm counting on Sean & Vanessa to follow this closely.

[JBlue]

http://trueler.com/2011/04/15/where-the-butchers-organic-meats-come-from/

That is interesting. If 'The Butchers' are continually updating their site from one 'organic' supplier to another, it would not surprise me they are lying about the source of their meat. Odds being organic are not very good.


Also interesting note on their site > http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/bio_marlon.html It says customers know where the meat comes from but from 'Trueler' the source of the meat can not be verified as the suppliers have NEVER heard or have not supplied meat to Buthers for over 2 years.

[Cas77]

More importantly, does this deep discount reflect the mark up of Organic Meat in Toronto? If not, and this was meant to advertise the business through a "loss leader" it's a strange decision. Even large corporations like Dell, Staples, The Bay, Telus, Loblaws...promotions/loss leaders are strictly limited. Is it even possible for one shop to purchase that much meat?

I'm counting on Sean & Vanessa to follow this closely.

This is not a loss leader. This is an entire business model that I predict will become more and more popular as these deal sites keep popping up and fighting over a limited number of willing companies to promote.

They know they're not getting repeat customers. Why should they care? They're sitting on 10 years worth of profit at this very moment and milking it more every day.

Wait a few months and see how many companies pop up, adopt the same business plan and use these group deals as their sole source of income.

[JBlue]

This is not a loss leader. This is an entire business model that I predict will become more and more popular as these deal sites keep popping up and fighting over a limited number of willing companies to promote.

They know they're not getting repeat customers. Why should they care? They're sitting on 10 years worth of profit at this very moment and milking it more every day.

Wait a few months and see how many companies pop up, adopt the same business plan and use these group deals as their sole source of income.

100% this is a lost leader for The Butchers. They are using the funds to sustain (short period) and give a slight growth (short period) to the business but this is an overall losing venture.

$99 for $400 of meat. Plus the % that must be given to DealFind or whichever groupbuying site. At this margin, there is no profit especially for organic meat and from the post on Trueler, I suspect the organic meat is not organic as they say but from a place more questionable. Either way, offering deliveries, extending and increasing these deals.. some where corners are cut and I believe it is a lost leader at best. This is not a sustainable business model it is a race to the bottom any new businesses that pop up and do this is only looking at short term profits.

[canguy9999]

This is the latest from Deal Ticker

"UPDATE: DealTicker will ensure that all customers are protected, and refunded in the case of The Butchers not honoring the vouchers, and not providing the quality and products agreed upon (as per contractual obligations), and we want to inform all customers that we are going to look after their best interest at hand first and foremost. Please stay tuned as our legal team is vigorously pursuing this case and we will keep everyone posted on the outcome as soon as we receive feedback. At this point in time, we are ensuring that our customers' best interest is at hand, and will keep you posted on the status. "

[CalgaryRunner]

Here's a direct link to the DealTicker discussion thread about this deal: http://www.dealticker.com/blog.php/product_id/1964

Looks like DealTicker claims that they have a signed contract with The Butchers and intends to continue offering the deal even though The Butchers says they will not honour it.

[00cp]

Chowhound is very actively deleting comments on "The Butcher's" thread today... wow

[Dealbyer]

you should see the ripoff the dealticker is running today..... click on the discussion panel on their website.. apparently the butcher is saying that they are not aware of any dealticker deal, dealticker is still telling their consumers to buy it up haha :lol:

[JBlue]

Ok, the only thing I was referring to that wasn't necessarily fact was that the meat wasn't organic.

I didn't jump all over you or call you a liar. The matter is regardless of what supplier you've dug up that may or may not have organic product doesn't mean the meat isn't organic.

The Butchers can be sourcing organic fruits for marinades they could be getting a number of things from any of these suppliers. Also just because a company on their website doesn't have a certain product doesn't mean they don't sell it.

I know many food companies who sell products out of their normal categories to food service and industrial customers.

I think the fact that 'The Butcher' seems to source meat from one company than changing the information to another.. and the overall groupdeals makes it a valid concern. IN a way it is starting to paint a picture of how they operate. If anything the OP to your comment is doing due diligence and personally with the sub-par performance and questionable business practices and service, I agree. It wouldn't surprise me they are cutting corners and over stating or lie about their products. They are only one retail shop.

As for companies that don't show they have certain products on their site.. that argument can go both ways and really depends on the company but i would rather argue against you because what is the benefit of not listing products or services that you sell. Also how big is this company? It is possible producers sell products or rebrand products for other companies but again I rather argue they would rebrand but NOT offer a new product outside of their core business. If this is a case are they a producer for distributors or to retailers? If they are offering a unique product outside of their business.. why? Is it because the customer/buyer of this unique product is HUGE? In this case The Butcher is one store so no. Also grocery industry in general have one of the lowest margins in a hugely competitive market. We are talking single % points and based on economies of scale for giants such as Loblaws it is still single percentage points low #s in fact. The Butcher is not a very complex retailer and not a distributor or even have their own branded products for other retailers. SO my question is.. You actually think they are profitable or even offering 'quality ORGANIC meats' at 85% off?

[kator]

The Butchers can be sourcing organic fruits for marinades they could be getting a number of things from any of these suppliers. Also just because a company on their website doesn't have a certain product doesn't mean they don't sell it.

I know many food companies who sell products out of their normal categories to food service and industrial customers.

just fyi: i called them (cascadian farms) - they dont know who the butchers are nor do they sell any sort of meat. also the buytopia site says that cascadian farms is not their supplier - it was a copy error - the actual supplier is acadian quality beef.

[JBlue]

just fyi: I called them (cascadian farms) - they dont know who the butchers are nor do they sell any sort of meat. Also the buytopia site says that cascadian farms is not their supplier - it was a copy error - the actual supplier is acadian quality beef.

shadyyyy and how convenient they changed their mind when they got called out on their BS!

[00cp]

This is getting funny..... reminds me of "My Cousin Vinny".. "Gambini? No I said GambinO..."

Marlon must be thinking: "Just keep changing the wording, lettering, name, phrasing, etc... these coupon buyers are chumps!"

[kator]

how many people who want refunds still have yet to get them?

[canguy9999]

I think the fact that 'The Butcher' seems to source meat from one company than changing the information to another.. and the overall groupdeals makes it a valid concern. IN a way it is starting to paint a picture of how they operate. If anything the OP to your comment is doing due diligence and personally with the sub-par performance and questionable business practices and service, I agree. It wouldn't surprise me they are cutting corners and over stating or lie about their products. They are only one retail shop.

As for companies that don't show they have certain products on their site.. that argument can go both ways and really depends on the company but i would rather argue against you because what is the benefit of not listing products or services that you sell. Also how big is this company? It is possible producers sell products or rebrand products for other companies but again I rather argue they would rebrand but NOT offer a new product outside of their core business. If this is a case are they a producer for distributors or to retailers? If they are offering a unique product outside of their business.. why? Is it because the customer/buyer of this unique product is HUGE? In this case The Butcher is one store so no. Also grocery industry in general have one of the lowest margins in a hugely competitive market. We are talking single % points and based on economies of scale for giants such as Loblaws it is still single percentage points low #s in fact. The Butcher is not a very complex retailer and not a distributor or even have their own branded products for other retailers. SO my question is.. You actually think they are profitable or even offering 'quality ORGANIC meats' at 85% off?

Ok I'm not arguing there are a lot of issues with The Butchers or these deals, there are tons! Lots of questionable business going on here. I don't mind discussing the questionable business they are doing nor stating opinions on some of these issues. I've just been finding a lot of posts between this forum and others; people are stating a lot of rumors as fact. I'm against this in general; I've been on the other end before where someone had tried to ruin the rep of my business. After finally getting a chance to show them that they were spreading lies a lot of the damage had already been done. I could have tried to take them to court over it but really for a small business it wasn't worth my time or upfront money to do so.

I still run this business part time; but I'm in a different area of business now. I work in the food business on some level. I'll start off with your point on grocery stores having the lowest margins; because that is ridiculous. Most products the grocery store is making more to much much more money than the manufacturer. Especially if we talk about small to medium sized businesses.

If you are basing anything on U.S. facts, most grocery chains in the U.S. work much different than here in Canada. Most business in Canada is direct, while most in the U.S. is through distribution. In turn U.S. grocery stores take less mark-up, because the middle man is also taking a markup.

Yes you are more likely to find less mark-up on products that have to be competitive brands such as Coke and KD, this would bring down the average mark-up since their volumes are so high.

Now ontop of mark-ups there are many other costs which in general you could really put into the price of the product. Companies have to pay listing fees, flyer fees, database fees, wastage fees, shipping ect. All these fees essentially raise the price of the original product and a lot of the money is really another income source for grocery stores.

I do think that The Butchers are making money on these deals or at least breaking even. I believe so because its very much in the realm of possibility and since its possible I think The Butchers would have done their work to do so, otherwise they would be very stupid to offer so many deals.

With the resent newsletter from the Healthy Butcher they say their Gross Margin is 35%. They are probably sourcing from a more expensive to much more expensive supplier. Their prices are lower then the Butchers and they are buying and selling a much lower quantity than the Butchers is currently.

It has been stated before from previous group buy sites that they took less then their normal cut on these deals to offer a good deal. I don't remember who it was, I'm thinking webpiggy but I could be wrong states they only took 25%. I'm sure the Butcher negotiated this with most group buy sites after their first few deals. People think the 50% based on groupons model is all you can get. Trust me these places have negotiation room, and a lot of it if they think they can sell the volume and or its a high ticket item.

I mean with a low ticketed item($10 regular price) $5 deal price, I was able to negotiate their cut at $1.50. I didn't even sell a ton of the product through the group buy site. 150ish items.

Now take this into consideration. I can go to a local farm, buy a chicken at a walk-in consumer price, mark my chicken up to $6.99/lb(same price as the butchers). Offer a 30% discount on a group deal site, have the group deal site take a 25% cut and I would break even. This is based on the price of me buying one single chicken from an actual local farm that I found online in a 30 second google search. The product is also organic!

If we are just talking Chicken Wings, I can buy the Chicken Wings. Mark them up 42%, give the 25% discount and break even.

Quickly going over some beef products from another local farm based on their online pricing for consumers I was able to get between 30-52% markups also. With Beef Ribs I got a 52% mark up to break even.

[buddhababy]

Ok, the only thing I was referring to that wasn't necessarily fact was that the meat wasn't organic.

I didn't jump all over you or call you a liar. The matter is regardless of what supplier you've dug up that may or may not have organic product doesn't mean the meat isn't organic.

The Butchers can be sourcing organic fruits for marinades they could be getting a number of things from any of these suppliers. Also just because a company on their website doesn't have a certain product doesn't mean they don't sell it.

I know many food companies who sell products out of their normal categories to food service and industrial customers.

And again I'll point out to you that I did not raise the question of whether or not their meat was organic. As for me "digging up" (nice choice of words there buddy) their suppliers, why am I the only one that you question the veracity when I post what the dealsite itself listed as suppliers to the Butchers? I don't see you questioning the poster who posted, in your terminolgy, the "facts which may or may not be true" of what suppliers were listed on the Webpiggy deal. This is how I feel jumped upon.

I also never said the three companies I "dug up" were the only ones the Butchers deal with. Nor did I say that Cascadian Farms does not supply chicken or turkey to the Butchers as originally stated on the Buytopia deal, I said Cascadian farms only seems to produce fruit and vegetable products. I didn't say "I looked for chicken and turkey products on the Cascadian Farms website and didn't find any" (which is true, but I didn't say it), nor did I say, "Cascadian farms does not have meat, organic or otherwise" (which becasue I did not find any information on the Cascadian website regarding meat products, I have no idea whether or not they have meat of any kind so I said nothing about it) and yet you use my post to come back with Cascadian farms may have meat, just because they sell vegetables does not mean they don't sell meat, this doesn't prove anything about whether or not the meat is organic and something else about frozen meat which I also never brought up. This is how I feel the inference that I am a liar.

I understand you are trying to keep the hype down on this thread and good on you for doing so, but I would appreciate if you would read my posts as written and respond to them accordingly, not with what you think I said.

[canguy9999]

And again I'll point out to you that I did not raise the question of whether or not their meat was organic. As for me "digging up" (nice choice of words there buddy) their suppliers, why am I the only one that you question the veracity when I post what the dealsite itself listed as suppliers to the Butchers? I don't see you questioning the poster who posted, in your terminolgy, the "facts which may or may not be true" of what suppliers were listed on the Webpiggy deal. This is how I feel jumped upon.

I also never said the three companies I "dug up" were the only ones the Butchers deal with. Nor did I say that Cascadian Farms does not supply chicken or turkey to the Butchers as originally stated on the Buytopia deal, I said Cascadian farms only seems to produce fruit and vegetable products. I didn't say "I looked for chicken and turkey products on the Cascadian Farms website and didn't find any" (which is true, but I didn't say it), nor did I say, "Cascadian farms does not have meat, organic or otherwise" (which becasue I did not find any information on the Cascadian website regarding meat products, I have no idea whether or not they have meat of any kind so I said nothing about it) and yet you use my post to come back with Cascadian farms may have meat, just because they sell vegetables does not mean they don't sell meat, this doesn't prove anything about whether or not the meat is organic and something else about frozen meat which I also never brought up. This is how I feel the inference that I am a liar.

I understand you are trying to keep the hype down on this thread and good on you for doing so, but I would appreciate if you would read my posts as written and respond to them accordingly, not with what you think I said.

Touchy aren't we. I guess I'll apologize. The and I'll quote "This isn't necessarily fact" was actually refering to my own post.

"This isn't necessarily fact; but from who they are ordering in from and the distance, you think they are buying frozen, and/or very large bulk. This stuff has to be transported via refrigerated trucks quite a distance. I don't know enough about the meat business to guess on the implications either can cause, but it is interesting. "

I was trying to make sure people didn't think I was saying it as a fact.

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

[xGoHaNx]

Just received this e-mail from DealTicker...

Dear DealTicker Customers:

It has come to our attention that The Butchers are turning away customers and refusing to honour vouchers purchased through our site.

This action has been taken unilaterally by The Butchers without consultation with or prior warning to DealTicker.

As a result of this conduct, we are obliged to discontinue this deal. We are currently in consultations with our legal team and are considering all legal remedies available against The Butchers.

To all who purchased this offering, DealTicker has only taken an authorization and no charges have been processed on to any credit cards. As such, all authorizations will be cancelled and no charges will appear for these transactions.

We sincerely regret any inconvenience the actions of The Butchers may have caused.

[Dealbyer]

Right. Something tells me that it is Dealticker who is at fault here. More than likely they are pressing an expired contract from their previous deal, figuring they can catch the Global TV buzz.. I spoke with the Butchers this morning and they said that Dealticker was trying to run an unauthorized deal.


Regardless, any publicity is good publicity... at least dealticr thinks so!






Just received this e-mail from DealTicker...

Dear DealTicker Customers:

It has come to our attention that The Butchers are turning away customers and refusing to honour vouchers purchased through our site.

This action has been taken unilaterally by The Butchers without consultation with or prior warning to DealTicker.

As a result of this conduct, we are obliged to discontinue this deal. We are currently in consultations with our legal team and are considering all legal remedies available against The Butchers.

To all who purchased this offering, DealTicker has only taken an authorization and no charges have been processed on to any credit cards. As such, all authorizations will be cancelled and no charges will appear for these transactions.

We sincerely regret any inconvenience the actions of The Butchers may have caused.

[kator]

Right. Something tells me that it is Dealticker who is at fault here. More than likely they are pressing an expired contract from their previous deal, figuring they can catch the Global TV buzz.. I spoke with the Butchers this morning and they said that Dealticker was trying to run an unauthorized deal.


Regardless, any publicity is good publicity... at least dealticr thinks so!

it's funny how the ones defending the butchers are always the ones with brand new accounts.

[7jaii]

Just received this e-mail from DealTicker...

Dear DealTicker Customers:

It has come to our attention that The Butchers are turning away customers and refusing to honour vouchers purchased through our site.

This action has been taken unilaterally by The Butchers without consultation with or prior warning to DealTicker.

As a result of this conduct, we are obliged to discontinue this deal. We are currently in consultations with our legal team and are considering all legal remedies available against The Butchers.

To all who purchased this offering, DealTicker has only taken an authorization and no charges have been processed on to any credit cards. As such, all authorizations will be cancelled and no charges will appear for these transactions.

We sincerely regret any inconvenience the actions of The Butchers may have caused.

I expect Sean (Global) and Vanessa (Toronto Star) to perform due diligence on groupbuys and in particular "The Butchers" & Marlon. RFDers have provided enough leads in multiple threads that reporters can investigate. Isn't that investigative journalism? More importantly, there's also the issue of groupsites moderating unfavourable reviews, shouldn't consumers require transparency for something this enormous?

Follow the trail, setting aside "libel" concerns with regards to starch in sausages, there are basic questions:

* Why didn't reporters research previous feedback, some consumers posted at the beginning of the year.

* If national chains cannot offer 80% off goods over a sustained period then how is The Butcher able to offer this. Yes, 1 or 2 vouchers per customer...UNLIMITED vouchers as gifts! Can a reporter do the actual math?

* There are proprietary processes and legal agreements that consumers don't need to know, but perhaps Sean can interview DealTicker's legal team to understand how this developed. Most importantly, a reliable reporter can provide accurate updates vs. internet "hmm ahhs" that make companies nervous.

* Who supplies The Butchers, is it Organic, etc.? When a public company updates its shareholders during AGM all facts such as supply chain, surpluses, losses, and delivery targets are noted. Heck, Walmart can has to show who/what/where/how and how much tax is involved in operations. Can consumers/voucher holders receive an overview from GlobalTV or Toronto Star?

* Instead of repeating, "consumers can contact Credit Card companies for a refund," that really isn't an enjoyable experience. Heck, most consumers are too embarrassed to post online and admit buying when a deal goes sour. Should a 3rd party, for example, a feedback forum be put in place. Technology consumers rely on Heatware & Anandtech, perhaps something for Toronto/Canada groupbuys?

* Sean & Vanessa really need to contact customers who took time to post at dealsites & forums. Differentiate between buyer's remorse vs. bad shopping experience. Isn't protecting consumers and ensuring a good experience/good deal and holding a company to abide by its contact part of their goal? That's one reason for their TV segment and Newspaper columns, don't you agree?

* Finally, it seems groupbuys and companies contacted & leveraged their media interviews in lieu of paid advertising. That's part of the appeal for companies to participate in groupbuys - getting a good "Buzz". Since Sean & Vanessa placed their reputation and in essence their bosses' weight behind The Butchers & WebPiggy et al, then couldn't media outlets highlight a groupbuy and a company's rating on a regular basis? Consumer Reports regularly holds companies & products accountable, shouldn't Sean & Vanessa use their visibility to guide consumers through difficult decisions? Or offer solutions when there are pitfalls.

* I will wait for Sean & Vanessa to follow up on The Butchers. RFDers know first hand, smiles all around when deals are easy - it's how a company handles problems that defines its character and longevity.

I'm very interested how The Butchers & Marlon will define their Meat & Fish business in coming months. I hope related threads can be stickied because individual consumers cannot sort through this complicated situation on their own.

[JBlue]

it's funny how the ones defending the butchers are always the ones with brand new accounts.

+ 1

There can be only be one reason why this deal did not go through and that is $. The Butcher are already maximizing their potential by listing with a lot of groupbuy sites. They have sold excess of 15000 'vouchers' so it is not a reason they can't fulfill them because they have extended some listings based on popularity. Probably the commission % was not favorable as they gain experience when they dealt with new groupbuy sites. Either way something happened and the last minute The Butcher played hardball and didn't get their way. DealTicker can probably vindicate themselves by showing the contract which they have signed. Has DealTicker listed a deal with 'The Butcher' before? I'm curious why 'DealTicker' would risk their reputation if the deal was not authorized. Companies that want to list on theses sites are dime a dozen, we have seen some unethical business practice from 'The Butcher', have we seen this from DealTicker? I'm leaning on 'The Butcher' rescinding on their contract obligation.


I found this comment on ChowHound. This makes me really skeptical on the source of their products.

"When I mentioned that their website talked about Beretta organic products, I asked about buying Beretta hotdogs. I was told they no longer carried Beretta products and that they bring in organic meat then ship it to a Mennonite farm to make the hot dogs for them. Where's the certification in that? Where's the transparency? In talking with other butcher shops in the area, and actually speaking with a former supplier of theirs who happened to be delivering at another shop, the butchers have a bad reputation amongst the organic and natural crowd."

[mabman]

from TheButchers website April 15 http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html

** Due to an influx of vouchers we have decided to close the store from 11:30am-1pm weekdays to clean and restock the store. After discussions with Toronto Health we have taken precautionary measures to ensure we continue to keep up our standards around cleanliness of the store.

[YLSF]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but, there is a very good analysis posted on CH.. A link to the Healthy Butcher's opinion on "group buy discount vouchers" and how it related to the meat business:

http://www.thehealthybutcher.com/livetoeat/volume43/LiveToEat-Volume43-WhyDeepDiscountCouponsAreNotSustainableInTheFoodIn dustry.html

[mabman]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/globe-to/ninety-nine-bucks-for-400-worth-of-organic-meat-seriously/article1987680/

[mabman]

http://www.thehealthybutcher.com/livetoeat/volume43/LiveToEat-Volume43-WhyDeepDiscountCouponsAreNotSustainableInTheFoodIn dustry.html

[7jaii]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but, there is a very good analysis posted on CH.. A link to the Healthy Butcher's opinion on "group buy discount vouchers" and how it related to the meat business:

http://www.thehealthybutcher.com/livetoeat/volume43/LiveToEat-Volume43-WhyDeepDiscountCouponsAreNotSustainableInTheFoodIn dustry.html

Good link, GlobalTV Toronto Star National Post CP24 CBC Newsworld CTV and others should interview Mario to appreciate The Butcher's Dilemma.

Reading stories from Buytopia, Trueler, The Butchers, Foodwithlegs, Sean O'Shea, and others, a clearer picture is developing about earlier this week. Sean O'Shea praised Marlon for graciously providing an interview even though The Butchers was "closed that day". Foodwithlegs got to savour food from Marlon. Buytopia (or another site) was promoting new vouchers...look closer and you'll notice everyone's livelihood is tied to advertising and this isn't kosher.

Sean mentioned that Buytopia was pursuing him to showcase their site on GlobalTV (Sean declined). In actuality Marlon closed his store to dress it up so Buytopia could promo The Butchers. Foodwithlegs sampled food with Buytopia and reviewed The Butchers on his blog with gorgeous photos & praise. Meanwhile GlobalTV featured a segment with happy customers and Marlon gets his store on TV; and allows Global to fill airtime paid by other advertisers... so those guys got something. But voucher holders are burdened with increasing restrictions each day with each new voucher promotion.

Meanwhile the above mentioned groups said those coincidences are inadvertent and they don't see any conflicts in their judgment. Well I won't judge until more details reveal expenses/revenue and offers transparency. With some vouchers pegged at $400 worth of produce, Mario's (The Healthy Butcher's) Gross Margin chart is an eye opener. Would it be too difficult for Sean O'Shea to perform the same due diligence or contact local butchers & farmers? If consumer protection newscasters are worried about libel then that's more reason to gather all relevant info before approving this segment for airing. I promised to wait for this to play out before posting my opinion but the common optics (particularly on RFD) reminds consumers that we are not included in their business processes even though we're paying - meanwhile groupbuy sites, and stores, and reviewers, and broadcasters draw their wagons in a circle when they hear complaints.

Again, it's smiles all around when deals go right. But I would like the same effort in media reporting as this situation develops - today's Dealticker's announcement is a Red Flag (no pun intended). Once again, The Butchers arbitrarily changed voucher conditions and DealTicker is a groupbuy complaining, not us peons.

[YLSF]

Another crazy thing (again not sure if posted on a thread here, read it on Chowhound.... maybe there should be a consilidation of all "The Butchers" threads into one).

---------------
** Due to an influx of vouchers we have decided to close the store from 11:30am-1pm weekdays to clean and restock the store. After discussions with Toronto Health we have taken precautionary measures to ensure we continue to keep up our standards around cleanliness of the store.

-----------------

They posted this on their website.

I am thinking also that google results aren't coming up with these threads because if someone googles "The Butchers" it is pretty generic. Hopefully we can push the google results for these threads up to the top :)

[YLSF]

Another link I found on CH. Globe and Mail article :

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/globe-to/ninety-nine-bucks-for-400-worth-of-organic-meat-seriously/article1987680/page1/

[buddhababy]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but, there is a very good analysis posted on CH.. A link to the Healthy Butcher's opinion on "group buy discount vouchers" and how it related to the meat business:

http://www.thehealthybutcher.com/livetoeat/volume43/LiveToEat-Volume43-WhyDeepDiscountCouponsAreNotSustainableInTheFoodIn dustry.html

Really good find - thanks for posting this.

[AcidBomber]

I have merged all the The Butchers threads into one to consolidate all the information.

[kator]

I have merged all the The Butchers threads into one to consolidate all the information.

cheers, good sir!

[MikeJefe]

Chowhound is very actively deleting comments on "The Butcher's" thread today... wow

I wonder if Chowhound was paid off by either The Butchers or the deals sites, or they have been threatened with lawsuits if they allow their board to be used as a soapbox by complainants. It seems they delete complaints against the store (two people tried to link to Trueler and they were deleted) but allow shills like Yongeman to post at will.

The behavior of their moderators in this situation is very fishy indeed. In the past they'd have moved this thread maybe to "Not About Food" or "Home Cooking" or some other miscellaneous board but they're just leaving The Butchers talk in the Toronto board but deleting complaints.

Long story short, Chowhound is USELESS for reliable Butchers scam information. They're arbitrarily filtering out the negatives so that the shills can monopolize discussion.

[buddhababy]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/globe-to/ninety-nine-bucks-for-400-worth-of-organic-meat-seriously/article1987680/

What a disappointing piece of "journalism". I expected better from the Globe & Mail.

[dealzuser]

What a disappointing piece of "journalism". I expected better from the Globe & Mail.

It seems that any argument that does not criticize The Butchers is considered disappointing. Everyone jumps to assume the Truler article is accurate, while Food with Legs is not, but there is no indication that the review in latter is overly biased. (The writer disclosed all parties involved in the review, and that person wouldn't have done that if they're just a shill.) The Healthy Butcher article is being cited as a clear indication of the shady practice of the Butcher, but should that be taken with a grain of salt, as they are a direct competitor, and are probably losing tons of sales from the Butcher's promotion?

I am unhappy about the fact that I can't just walk in on a Sat afternoon to redeem my voucher per the terms of the voucher. But Marlon quoted in the G & M article has a point if you look at it from his side. If you can, hold on to the voucher a little instead of all storming there in herds. I'm guessing that by May / June, the crowds would have lessened, and a level of normalcy may resume. Sadly, the nature of the daily deal is that you can't sell vouchers slowly...

The 3 times I went, I did pick up meat of good quality. The last time, what I got for $50 is a really good deal. (I still have 4-5 so I won't be buying more, and I'm thinking there will be another one once I use those up. :) ) The original price is outrageous, but the first time I went, there were people buying it at that price without a voucher.



I wonder if Chowhound was paid off by either The Butchers or the deals sites, or they have been threatened with lawsuits if they allow their board to be used as a soapbox by complainants. It seems they delete complaints against the store (two people tried to link to Trueler and they were deleted) but allow shills like Yongeman to post at will.

The behavior of their moderators in this situation is very fishy indeed. In the past they'd have moved this thread maybe to "Not About Food" or "Home Cooking" or some other miscellaneous board but they're just leaving The Butchers talk in the Toronto board but deleting complaints.

Long story short, Chowhound is USELESS for reliable Butchers scam information. They're arbitrarily filtering out the negatives so that the shills can monopolize discussion.


Look at this post. If there are just people calling this place a SCAM because of inconvenience, the moderators at RFD should probably be taking them down as well. There is no proof that Chowhound was paid off by either The Butchers or the deals sites (and it's unlikely for a local merchant to influence Chowhound). Just screaming SCAM does not add value to the discussion. And much of this thread do NOT contain actual experience!

People - share your experience of actual visits rather than just casting innuendos.

(My sister in law visited on Friday ~330pm, and there was no selection. It's not a good experience, but my guess is that once the stampede die down a bit, and considering that 30% will probably lose their vouchers / forget to redeem, things will be better. It's is no different than any other heavily discounted deal.)

[JBlue]

What a disappointing piece of "journalism". I expected better from the Globe & Mail.

I agree. The article left me wondering if the negative rumors have been verified or not. Specifically the organic supplier. Did they confirm 'The Butcher' is their customer?

Also the negotiation on better payment structure leads me to believe this might be the issue they have with DealTicker or some other issue with money.

Regarding 'The Butcher' is saying this is a loss leader. Something doesn't add up. I smell BS on that, if it is loss of profit than him saying if one customer spends $1 he makes $10,000. What about the amount he lost with over 15,000 voucher sold. He would be still in the RED. If he is breaking even, I just don't see that is a possibility because he now has increased overhead costs such as staffing, logistics and a whole bunch of headaches. He would need a part-timer alone to do all the emails and verify all the coupons. Could you imagine scanning through 15,000 vouchers in excel, marked them off an udpate the document continuously? He has been overwhelmed which has caused him to change the redemption rules, yet he continues to offer deals, so basically he and his staff are working for FREE until the vouchers are all used up. Why go through all that trouble. Can Marketing be that valuable for him?

Also add in the questionable 'new' accounts that seem to pop up in support and all the other drama of posts being deleted on other forums from valid customers.. I dunno this place is going to be one spectacular train wreck.

My bet is he is using the funds for his fish shop but his supply chain sucks/fraudulant and people are getting sub-par meet played off as 'organic'. Lost leader my butt.

[CalgaryRunner]

From The Butchers website (http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html):


Due to an influx of vouchers we have decided to close the store from 11:30am-1pm weekdays to clean and restock the store.
It's very odd for a retail store to choose to close during lunchtime. Seems like another ploy to slow down the redemption of the vouchers.

[hugh chung]

I am unhappy about the fact that I can't just walk in on a Sat afternoon to redeem my voucher per the terms of the voucher. But Marlon quoted in the G & M article has a point if you look at it from his side. If you can, hold on to the voucher a little instead of all storming there in herds. I'm guessing that by May / June, the crowds would have lessened, and a level of normalcy may resume. Sadly, the nature of the daily deal is that you can't sell vouchers slowly...
.[/U][/B])

i dont really think the butchers deal is a scam, but it really seems foolish that that would sell all these vouchers at pretty much the same time at so many deal sites without thinking of the consequences.

Instead of taking our money and then telling us to hold on to these vouchers till later on in the year, why didnt he stagger the deals at each deal site so they appear at farther spaced times during the year? or if he needed the money right away, why not make each site sell a voucher that is redeemable 1-2 months from the one previously he sells?

He really should have thought it out before signing so many contracts at these deal sites, how dare he complain too many people are redeeming at once, what does he expect when you dont limit things? he doesnt strike me as a very savvy businessman, and i pity this fool.

[dealzuser]

From The Butchers website (http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html):

It's very odd for a retail store to choose to close during lunchtime. Seems like another ploy to slow down the redemption of the vouchers.

It's a little odd for someone in Calgary to be commenting on this. :) Sadly, this new store closure does not bode well for people's opinion of the Butchers...




He really should have thought it out before signing so many contracts at these deal sites, how dare he complain too many people are redeeming at once, what does he expect when you dont limit things? he doesnt strike me as a very savvy businessman, and i pity this fool.

Yeah. I think that out of desperation they're trying to adjust the conditions all the time. It's very unprofessional for them not to think ahead. I don't think it's a scam, but it's killing their reputation for sure.

[dma87]

"But Marlon quoted in the G & M article has a point if you look at it from his side. If you can, hold on to the voucher a little instead of all storming there in herds. I'm guessing that by May / June, the crowds would have lessened, and a level of normalcy may resume."



When I originally purchased my coupon back at the first/second one ever for $40 for $100 worth of meats, we had every intention of "holding off", especially for summer BBQ. We also factored in that everyone would be redeeming at the same time so our plan would work to our advantage (good stock, no lineups etc.). To our surprise though, not even a week/two later, another coupon appeared, and then another, and then another. Now, there's limited stock and they can't keep up with the demand. So while Marlon says to "hold off", who know's if holding off will be worth it when another coupon magically appears in another month and even more people buy into this.

[JBlue]

Yeah. I think that out of desperation they're trying to adjust the conditions all the time. It's very unprofessional for them not to think ahead. I don't think it's a scam, but it's killing their reputation for sure.

One man shop with no foresight on the impact of these vouchers? That is expected and even more so of his naivety since he has sold so much and continue to re-list more deals. Other than making bad decisions again and again (change of redemption rules, raising of prices, change origin of supplier, funny NEW accounts praising his shop) what is his objective? Is it really like what the article said? Lost leader in the interest of marketing? Please he is not that complex.. who would want to put themselves in that position as a business to basically work their asses off for 1 year (plus his staff) for no PROFIT. Do the math: # of tickets SOLD / 260 days (work days in year) = HOLY COW i have to service all these customers everyday and HOPE they buy something extra and because of MARKETINGGG!

You can only compromise on one thing for this business model. I'm leaning to SCAM/FRAUD on his products. Trueler article is great because it really caught on to some 'inconsistency' to the origin of their products and various points that shows something is amiss. I don't know how much more red flags you need but collectively this guy screams unethical business practice on many different levels.

However who cares right as long as people get their (fake) organic meats @ 75% off. Personally waiting for the blowup.. Probably sometime after their last payment from these groupbuy sites.

[buddhababy]

What a disappointing piece of "journalism". I expected better from the Globe & Mail.


It seems that any argument that does not criticize The Butchers is considered disappointing. Everyone jumps to assume the Truler article is accurate, while Food with Legs is not, but there is no indication that the review in latter is overly biased. (The writer disclosed all parties involved in the review, and that person wouldn't have done that if they're just a shill.) The Healthy Butcher article is being cited as a clear indication of the shady practice of the Butcher, but should that be taken with a grain of salt, as they are a direct competitor, and are probably losing tons of sales from the Butcher's promotion?
.....

Here we go again. :arrowu:Not why found the article disappointing. Nor have I posted ANYWHERE that I assume the Truler article is accurate and the Food with Legs is not. (I'm assuming that when you say "everyone" you're including me as you've quoted my post for the lead in.)

What I found disappointing about the article is the lack of effort put in by the writer. The whole thing could have been written from home while he's still in his jammies.

"Buytopia did some investigating and called up some of the shop’s suppliers. One of them is Field Gate Organics, based in Zurich, Ont. (the two main others are Markham Quality Meats and Arcadian Farms). Over the phone, Buytopia found out that some skeptical daily deal hunters had already called Field Gate themselves, and Field Gate assured that their products are organic."

"Buytopia did some investigating and called up some of the shop's suppliers" - why didn't the writer call the suppliers? If the writer is too lazy to make the calls, then tell us - what did Buytopia hear from the other suppliers? The only 'confirmation' he writes about is confirmation that Field Gate Organics is organic -well Duh!, any foodie or health conscious shopper in Toronto can tell you that Field Gate is organic, Field Gate is well known. Where's the contact with ANY other suppliers?

The better questions for suppliers, whom the writer should contact himself and not depend on Buytopia doing his job, are "How much more are you supplying to The Butchers this year over the same time last year?", or, "How much has product demand increased since The Butchers began offering daily deal site discounts" and, more importantly, "How are you accommodating the increased demand?" There could be several reasonable responses - 'We knew ahead of time that there would be an increase in demand and planned accordingly', 'We expanded our own group of suppliers to meet the demand', 'We partnered with other farms to accommodate the increase' or even 'We couldn't meet the demand ourselves so we recommended several other farms to the Butchers and we understand that they have utilized some of our recommendations'.

If the writer just can't rouse himself out of his jammies to do more than depend on Buytopia investigation, he still could have asked Mr Pather how Mr Pather is keeping up with the increased demand. A reasonable answer from Mr Pather could include this response "We've greatly increased our number of suppliers to meet the increased demand". Which, IMO, would lead to a reasonable follow-up question - "Could you please provide me with your updated list of current suppliers?" and then the writer could have cut and paste Mr Pathers list into the article and waited for all the folks on discussion boards to look into it. Then the writer could do a follow up piece (cut and paste, no need to get out of his jammies) with what the internet community discovers.

I believe the reason the question has been repeatedly been raised on discussion boards (note: not by me) of whether or not The Butchers is selling organic meat is because it's hard to understand how so much organic meat can suddenly be supplied in such a short time frame. To my mind, other organic butchers in the GTA should be complaining of shortages but I haven't heard of any, so to my mind, the question is (and I have asked this previously on this thread http://forums.redflagdeals.com/merged-butchers-organic-meat-feedback-discussion-999078/11/#post12726499), how is this being accomplished? There are reasonable responses to this (see above) as well as unreasonable responses, but the Globe & Mail writer didn't ask this question, he seems to have just asked Marlon 'how's it going?' to which Marlon said 'Great' and that was it.

Considering the article is titled "Ninety-nine bucks for $400 worth of organic meat. Seriously?" I don't feel the writer has done a good job of answering his own question.

The other thing that I found disappointing about the article is that while the G&M writer brought up the anger of voucher purchasers who are upset with the increasingly limiting conditions being applied to the deals, he didn't actually address any of it. This sentence in particular irked me: "Mr Pather says...Plus, the promotion is applicable only to fresh meat and some frozen foods. If a customer wants tandoori chicken breasts or pistachio-curried marinades, they have to pay cash." If I had been interviewing Mr Pather, I would have immediately asked how that works when the first few deal sites stated in their on-site discussion threads that the vouchers were good for ANYTHING in the store which included fresh produce, homemade pies, pasta, cheese, stuffing, packaged goods and so on.

[kator]

Here we go again. :arrowu:Not why found the article disappointing. Nor have I posted ANYWHERE that I assume the Truler article is accurate and the Food with Legs is not. (I'm assuming that when you say "everyone" you're including me as you've quoted my post for the lead in.)

What I found disappointing about the article is the lack of effort put in by the writer. The whole thing could have been written from home while he's still in his jammies.

"Buytopia did some investigating and called up some of the shop’s suppliers. One of them is Field Gate Organics, based in Zurich, Ont. (the two main others are Markham Quality Meats and Arcadian Farms). Over the phone, Buytopia found out that some skeptical daily deal hunters had already called Field Gate themselves, and Field Gate assured that their products are organic."

"Buytopia did some investigating and called up some of the shop's suppliers" - why didn't the writer call the suppliers? If the writer is too lazy to make the calls, then tell us - what did Buytopia hear from the other suppliers? The only 'confirmation' he writes about is confirmation that Field Gate Organics is organic -well Duh!, any foodie or health conscious shopper in Toronto can tell you that Field Gate is organic, Field Gate is well known. Where's the contact with ANY other suppliers?

The better questions for suppliers, whom the writer should contact himself and not depend on Buytopia doing his job, are "How much more are you supplying to The Butchers this year over the same time last year?", or, "How much has product demand increased since The Butchers began offering daily deal site discounts" and, more importantly, "How are you accommodating the increased demand?" There could be several reasonable responses - 'We knew ahead of time that there would be an increase in demand and planned accordingly', 'We expanded our own group of suppliers to meet the demand', 'We partnered with other farms to accommodate the increase' or even 'We couldn't meet the demand ourselves so we recommended several other farms to the Butchers and we understand that they have utilized some of our recommendations'.
.

you know what's really sad here? *i* called buytopia and raised this all with them, which prompted the investigation the Tim Kiladze (the globe journalist) refers to. then i called many of the suppliers myself to find out what was going on, including cascadian farms. i followed up with buytopia to tell them that cascadian farms had never heard of the butchers nor did they sell meat, which prompted them to investigate and discover it was a 'copy error' which is why they updated their page to say the correct 'acadian farms.'

i'm not a journalist. tim kiladze is. so why am i acting more like a journalist and essentially doing for free what he is getting paid to do, simply because i actually want to know the truth behind this story.

[JBlue]

WORDS

Great points raised! Bravo!

[kator]

Here we go again. :arrowu:Not why found the article disappointing. Nor have I posted ANYWHERE that I assume the Truler article is accurate and the Food with Legs is not. (I'm assuming that when you say "everyone" you're including me as you've quoted my post for the lead in.)

What I found disappointing about the article is the lack of effort put in by the writer. The whole thing could have been written from home while he's still in his jammies.

"Buytopia did some investigating and called up some of the shop’s suppliers. One of them is Field Gate Organics, based in Zurich, Ont. (the two main others are Markham Quality Meats and Arcadian Farms). Over the phone, Buytopia found out that some skeptical daily deal hunters had already called Field Gate themselves, and Field Gate assured that their products are organic."

"Buytopia did some investigating and called up some of the shop's suppliers" - why didn't the writer call the suppliers? If the writer is too lazy to make the calls, then tell us - what did Buytopia hear from the other suppliers? The only 'confirmation' he writes about is confirmation that Field Gate Organics is organic -well Duh!, any foodie or health conscious shopper in Toronto can tell you that Field Gate is organic, Field Gate is well known. Where's the contact with ANY other suppliers?

The better questions for suppliers, whom the writer should contact himself and not depend on Buytopia doing his job, are "How much more are you supplying to The Butchers this year over the same time last year?", or, "How much has product demand increased since The Butchers began offering daily deal site discounts" and, more importantly, "How are you accommodating the increased demand?" There could be several reasonable responses - 'We knew ahead of time that there would be an increase in demand and planned accordingly', 'We expanded our own group of suppliers to meet the demand', 'We partnered with other farms to accommodate the increase' or even 'We couldn't meet the demand ourselves so we recommended several other farms to the Butchers and we understand that they have utilized some of our recommendations'.

If the writer just can't rouse himself out of his jammies to do more than depend on Buytopia investigation, he still could have asked Mr Pather how Mr Pather is keeping up with the increased demand. A reasonable answer from Mr Pather could include this response "We've greatly increased our number of suppliers to meet the increased demand". Which, IMO, would lead to a reasonable follow-up question - "Could you please provide me with your updated list of current suppliers?" and then the writer could have cut and paste Mr Pathers list into the article and waited for all the folks on discussion boards to look into it. Then the writer could do a follow up piece (cut and paste, no need to get out of his jammies) with what the internet community discovers.

I believe the reason the question has been repeatedly been raised on discussion boards (note: not by me) of whether or not The Butchers is selling organic meat is because it's hard to understand how so much organic meat can suddenly be supplied in such a short time frame. To my mind, other organic butchers in the GTA should be complaining of shortages but I haven't heard of any, so to my mind, the question is (and I have asked this previously on this thread http://forums.redflagdeals.com/merged-butchers-organic-meat-feedback-discussion-999078/11/#post12726499), how is this being accomplished? There are reasonable responses to this (see above) as well as unreasonable responses, but the Globe & Mail writer didn't ask this question, he seems to have just asked Marlon 'how's it going?' to which Marlon said 'Great' and that was it.

Considering the article is titled "Ninety-nine bucks for $400 worth of organic meat. Seriously?" I don't feel the writer has done a good job of answering his own question.

The other thing that I found disappointing about the article is that while the G&M writer brought up the anger of voucher purchasers who are upset with the increasingly limiting conditions being applied to the deals, he didn't actually address any of it. This sentence in particular irked me: "Mr Pather says...Plus, the promotion is applicable only to fresh meat and some frozen foods. If a customer wants tandoori chicken breasts or pistachio-curried marinades, they have to pay cash." If I had been interviewing Mr Pather, I would have immediately asked how that works when the first few deal sites stated in their on-site discussion threads that the vouchers were good for ANYTHING in the store which included fresh produce, homemade pies, pasta, cheese, stuffing, packaged goods and so on.

also can you please post that to the G&M site? its epic.

[mabman]

"Buytopia did some investigating and called up some of the shop’s suppliers. One of them is Field Gate Organics, based in Zurich, Ont. (the two main others are Markham Quality Meats and Arcadian Farms). Over the phone, Buytopia found out that some skeptical daily deal hunters had already called Field Gate themselves, and Field Gate assured that their products are organic."

Ok, so we now know that FGO sells organic products (but I already knew that as well as many others).
The real questions are:

1. "does FGO supply to TheButchers right now ?" (we also know that Beretta and Blue Haven USED to supply to them but that was over 2 years ago so I have to add the "right now" part to the question)

2. assuming they do supply to them, "has TheButchers recently increased their orders from FGO for organic products ?"

[fightbriz]

So what is the verdict on buying things other than "fresh meats" and "some frozen items" (which is what the globe and mail article says is only what the vouchers are valid for)?

I know the latest Buytopia deal says "applies to all meat products", but that is still pretty vague, because the globe and mail articles says ".....the promotion is applicable only to fresh meat and some frozen foods. If a customer wants tandoori chicken breasts or pistachio-curried marinades, they have to pay cash."

If it applies to all meat products, then tandoori chicken breasts should be purchasable with the voucher.


However, with the Webpiggy/Dealfind deals, the deal even states "$50 for $150 worth of meats, prepared foods, organic produce".. and customer service on the forums even said that it's valid for everything in store..

Or perhaps Buytopia one is only for meats, while Webpiggy/Dealfind are valid for everything?


What I don't understand is why it's so hard for these deal sites to state explicitly VALID ONLY ON ALL FRESH MEAT PRODUCTS, EXCLUDES (for example: ) MARINADED MEAT PRODUCTS, SMOKED SALMON, ORGANIC VEGGIES, etc..

That would solve SOOOOOO many confusion problems if they would state exactly what it's valid for and any exclusions instead of some vague statement like "applies to all meat products"..

Hear that BUYTOPIA???

[CalgaryRunner]

It's a little odd for someone in Calgary to be commenting on this. :)
I became interested in this after seeing the ever increasingly improbable deals being offered by this merchant. It's obvious to me that this merchant is trying to raise as much money as quickly as possible but I'll refrain from speculating as to what their motives may be for doing this. :)

But I will speculate that this is going to have a very ugly ending. First, the merchant is going to go out of business because the deals they've been selling are economically unviable, even with the reported price increases, reduction in product quality and selection, and the restrictions on redeeming the coupons. At some point the cash they've received from these deal sites is going to run out, and they can't pay suppliers, employee wages, utilities, tax remittances, etc. with the vouchers being presented by their customers.

When they do go out of business, it's going to decimate the group buying and deal site industry. Several of the sites will go belly up trying to refund people for their now useless vouchers. Credit card companies may be able to help those people who are still within their chargeback window, but others will be SOL. All of the negative publicity will put a significant damper on new deals, and people will be a lot more cautious about taking the plunge on deals for a while. After the shakeout happens there will only be a few players left - the better managed ones with enough financial backing to weather the storm.

For those of you who do have vouchers, I would advise you to use them as quickly as possible or get a refund because I think things will come to a head in the not too distant future.

[Rehan]

But I will speculate that this is going to have a very ugly ending. First, the merchant is going to go out of business because the deals they've been selling are economically unviable, even with their price increases, reduction in product quality and selection, and the restrictions on redeeming the coupons. At some point the cash they've received from these deal sites is going to run out, and they can't pay suppliers, employee wages, utilities, tax remittances, etc. with the vouchers being presented by their customers.

When they do go out of business, it's going to decimate the group buying and deal site industry. Several of the sites will go belly up trying to refund people for their now useless vouchers. Credit card companies may be able to help those people who are still within their chargeback window, but others will be SOL. All of the negative publicity will put a significant damper on new deals, and people will be a lot more cautious about taking the plunge on deals for a while. After the shakeout happens there will only be a few players left - the better managed ones with enough financial backing to weather the storm. For those that may not remember, read the thread about Kaz Electronics: http://forums.redflagdeals.com/site-now-offline-buykazelectronics-free-2-day-shipping-canada-525002 ... You can read the first few pages, and then skip to page 99 (http://forums.redflagdeals.com/site-now-offline-buykazelectronics-free-2-day-shipping-canada-525002/99/) and continue from there to see the fallout. (The first post is confusing because it has been edited very late in the thread's active period, but basically it was touting really really good deals on electronics from an online store in the US.)


For those of you who do have vouchers, I would advise you to use them as quickly as possible or get a refund because I think things will come to a head in the not too distant future. +1

[JBlue]

An interesting post on Truler:

"I own a meat distribution company which used to supply products to The Butchers. This company has a long history of cash flow problems and not paying its suppliers which is why many of the above mentioned suppliers no longer deal with The Butchers. There are a limited number of truly organic meat suppliers and it should be very easy to verify any claims they are making regarding the source of their meats. Only foods that are grown, processed and inspected according to strict organic standards can be labeled “certified organic.” Consumers can look for the Canadian Organic Standards seal and an organic certifier’s mark on their packages of organic productions. You should see both seals to be assured that each step in the entire organic supply chain meets the accepted organic regulations and guidelines."

[Arrgh]

I was going to go yesterday to redeem other vouchers I have, then saw this thread. I was disappointed that they no longer allow voucher redemption in weekends. But I work on weekdays.

There must be many people like me, who bought vouchers, and was planning to go on weekends to redeem. This is not right.

[sqrsqrl]

Some government resources that everyone should be aware of, especially if you're interested in filing complaints:

Competition Bureau of Canada (http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/)
Canadian Food Inspection Agency (http://www.inspection.gc.ca/)
Canadian Consumer Information Gateway (http://consumerinformation.ca/)

[mabman]

http://trueler.com/2011/04/15/where-the-butchers-organic-meats-come-from/#update2

[i-o_o-i]

I've bought vouchers for The Butchers from three separate deal sites, the first two, was very early on when they first started doing these, I was at least able to get some meats that I wanted(usually NY Strips) on a Saturday afternoon even though half their fridge was empty, the last one I would call ahead and had some trouble finding steaks on the weekend, so I submitted an email order for pickup and it took them almost two weeks to reply (I wanted to pickup Sat. April 2, the order was filled for Sat. April 16)! I am satisfied with the quality of meats I got from them for the price I paid (with the voucher of course), organic or not, they do sell good quality meat. But, recently with all these vouchers and being so difficult to actually get what I want from them, I don't think I would want to get another voucher for this place, although that $100 for $400 last week was quite attractive.

[JBlue]

.. although that $100 for $400 last week was quite attractive.

How is over inflated price attractive? Just be cautious, they are literally few steps away of being found fraud at this point. If the government does an inspection and the supplier have to be verified. I feel this will end badly.

Imagine your $100 of meats is really $30 of regular meat which don't pass health inspection? that would not be attractive.

[kator]

http://trueler.com/2011/04/15/where-the-butchers-organic-meats-come-from/#update2

i dont want to eat anything that comes from there!

i've left a message asking if they carry organic meat, but clearly they're not a farm (organic or otherwise)

[Happy13178]

it's funny how the ones defending the butchers are always the ones with brand new accounts.

It happens over and over again. I'm not sure what thoughts are running through these people's heads when they shill for their employers. Someone complains about a company, company is notified, all of a sudden there are new users loyal to the companies. As a satisfied customer, have you ever liked a company enough to actively seek out people complaining about it and then create accounts just to tell people how good it is? Ever? It's 1000% ********.


What a disappointing piece of "journalism". I expected better from the Globe & Mail.

Yes, but understandable. They probably don't have enough fact to print the whole thing....printing speculation on a business without being able to back it up is a good way to get sued.


From The Butchers website (http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html):


It's very odd for a retail store to choose to close during lunchtime. Seems like another ploy to slow down the redemption of the vouchers.

That's exactly what they're doing. Why would you close a store in the middle of the day to clean? Wouldn't you do it overnight or come in extra early to do it? Comparable businesses do it all the time. More to the point, wouldn't you think a butcher would have a cleaning crew come in every night?


Some government resources that everyone should be aware of, especially if you're interested in filing complaints:

Competition Bureau of Canada (http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/)
Canadian Food Inspection Agency (http://www.inspection.gc.ca/)
Canadian Consumer Information Gateway (http://consumerinformation.ca/)

Wonder who investigates fraud in this sort of thing....OPP? RCMP?

[JBlue]

It happens over and over again. I'm not sure what thoughts are running through these people's heads when they shill for their employers. Someone complains about a company, company is notified, all of a sudden there are new users loyal to the companies. As a satisfied customer, have you ever liked a company enough to actively seek out people complaining about it and then create accounts just to tell people how good it is? Ever? It's 1000% ********.



What's even more funny is the fact there are tons of long time members that speak their experiences only to be ignored by these 'star' customers. It is so obvious but I guess people are just gullible.

[Happy13178]

What's even more funny is the fact there are tons of long time members that speak their experiences only to be ignored by these 'star' customers. It is so obvious but I guess people are just gullible.

What really grabbed me was how some of these sites like webpiggy are behaving. Definitely been an eye-opener, and I won't be dealing with any of them, and neither will any friends or family I can steer away from them.

[00cp]

What really grabbed me was how some of these sites like webpiggy are behaving. Definitely been an eye-opener, and I won't be dealing with any of them, and neither will any friends or family I can steer away from them.

And I think thats the biggest thing I'm taking away from this Butchers debacle. I have completely put the breaks on all deal-of-the-day purchases and am worried about the ones I currently hold. Even though its only one company (the Butchers) and one deal (well, one deal offered too many times!), this experience has scared me away from any more purchases from ANY "deal" company at this point. For me its just not worth the risk, reputable company or otherwise.

[CSAgent]

I became interested in this after seeing the ever increasingly improbable deals being offered by this merchant. It's obvious to me that this merchant is trying to raise as much money as quickly as possible but I'll refrain from speculating as to what their motives may be for doing this. :)

But I will speculate that this is going to have a very ugly ending. First, the merchant is going to go out of business because the deals they've been selling are economically unviable, even with the reported price increases, reduction in product quality and selection, and the restrictions on redeeming the coupons. At some point the cash they've received from these deal sites is going to run out, and they can't pay suppliers, employee wages, utilities, tax remittances, etc. with the vouchers being presented by their customers.

When they do go out of business, it's going to decimate the group buying and deal site industry. Several of the sites will go belly up trying to refund people for their now useless vouchers. Credit card companies may be able to help those people who are still within their chargeback window, but others will be SOL. All of the negative publicity will put a significant damper on new deals, and people will be a lot more cautious about taking the plunge on deals for a while. After the shakeout happens there will only be a few players left - the better managed ones with enough financial backing to weather the storm.

For those of you who do have vouchers, I would advise you to use them as quickly as possible or get a refund because I think things will come to a head in the not too distant future.

This is PRECISELY what's going to happen. This is the #1 reason why I have stayed away from any, and all deals from any of these group buy sites. I don't plan on participating on any and I advise other consumers to think twice given this situation with this just one vendor... It can happen to other vendors too.

[pakmode]

Chowhound is very actively deleting comments on "The Butcher's" thread today... wow

Yea, I've found CH deleted my posts when I insinuated a Madoff-eque operation happening there.

At least RFD has been good about this.

It's the wild, wild west out there and most of these 40+ group deal sites will die a horrible death.

The stupid ones are cannibalizing their own market and somethings gotta give soon. There will be a correction in the market, and you will see only the strongest of them survive.

Unless they have Yellow Pages, Amazon, Google, Ebay, or any other large corp backing them, I suspect they will die a painful death and go to groupbuy heaven. This happened 10 years ago when there were dozens of search engine sites (askjeeves, altavista, lycos, webcrawler, etc) but only the strong survived.

Once people run for the exit on this Butcher deal - you will see Webpiggy, Buytopia, Dealticker etc all fold. Some people will be caught holding the bag. But that's what happens when greed is involved.
I don't know why it happens to so many people, so many times, but fear and greed are the 2 emotions that move a market. The Butchers are just as greedy as AIG, Lehman Brothers, Nortel, Worldcom, Enron, Fannie Mae, GM, Countrywide etc.

I fear that tragedy will befall the current greedy euphoric state the Butchers find themselves in.

Serious question: How are the Butchers keeping track of the nearly 20,000 vouchers they have sold??? What measures are in place to stop from the same voucher being redeemed multiple times? All I read, is that they staple the receipt to a used voucher.

[angekfire]

Like I said a while back, there is no way they can possibly sustain this deal unless they are buying sub-par, non-organic product, and marking it up to far higher than any other organic place even charges. That is pretty much the only way they can actually turn a profit from this in the long term. They can barely keep up with demand now, so they are closing their shop in the middle of the afternoon on top of it? And closed on weekends? That is probably when they'd be getting the majority of their customers. The way I see this action is them trying to dissuade or prevent people from redeeming their vouchers. This gives them more time to sit on all the profit that have already gotten from the various groupbuy sites, and collect interest, while losing very little money.

The way the store is making money now is not from their customers, but specifically from the sites selling the voucher. Essentially their meat is going at a loss. So the longer they are open, the more meat they are going to sell, the more of a loss they are taking. The less they are open, the more profit they continue to collect from these deal sites, while taking minimal losses by selling their meat.

So like I said before, I can only see this going 3 ways really.
1) The Butchers close shop or change names, leaving them will all the profits, and leaving all the vouchers invalid.

2) They piss off enough customers that they all go back to the deal sites asking for refunds, which at the share the deal site was making, they cannot afford to refund all of the vouchers and go bankrupt (As mentioned, we don't know what share the deal site took. Assuming 50/50, if they had to refund all the $100 for $400 vouchers, on each one they are losing $50 out of pocket. If the ratio is 75/25 for butchers/site, they are losing $75 for every refund). If they don't refund people, there will be enough bad publicity they will lose all their business and have to shut down anyway.

3) Their product is so marked up and they are getting it so cheap that they still somehow manage to turn a profit. At which point your $400 of meat will get you the same amount as you could get at the metro for $50, making the deal completely cold.

[angekfire]

Or, technically a 4th (that is doubtful)

4) The butchers are honest, and try to honour everyone's vouchers, and take such a huge loss they simply go bankrupt.

[zoro69]

Wow, they actually voluntarily mentioned the board of heath and a cleanliness issue...can't recall ever hearing a food establishment voluntarily admit to such, just rumours of such have put places out of business. People who bought prior to closing for the needed cleaning time realize what this is saying, right?


Of course its an excuse to slow the voucher redemption (thought hey must have had the health unit in?). If you were running something scammy with these voucher deals, it doesn't take much thought to realize how you have to do it. Stay around long enough and honour it enough to get the money advanced from the deal sites. but if the product goes out there isn't any point, so you have to somehow discourage redemptions. And you'd do exactly what they are doing limiting time to redeem, closing, and carrying low stock levels.

Can't believe a reporter published that bs about if everyone spends an extra $1 they have $10,000 without mentioning that is less the cost of the $1 worth of product, less the hundreds of thousands lost on the vouchers

We've already seen that deal55 site set up itself to be some sort of scam. Who's to say someone doesn't do something with both the business and site being in on a scam? if this isn't it, Im sure someone will with how much money this has raked in.

Does anyone have any idea who is behind any of these little copy cat deal sites? You could set one up without much money from your house, get your referal link out there, approach some legit local business offering very low or no fee to do their deal... then do something like this with a related business to pull in $1m+. Business goes bankrupt, deal site goes bankrupt. Money having been paid out in salary, expenses to related entities, or wired to whatever destination you are headed a newly made millionaire. Wouldn't be hard as we see people willing to keep buying these deals in the face of evidence of problems.

[00cp]

Its not too hard to source info on people, at least those responsible for registering the sites/domains.

I posted this back on the 8th:

Registrant:
Yellowthread Corp
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: DEALGETTERS.COM
Created on: 30-May-10
Expires on: 30-May-11
Last Updated on: 18-Jun-10

Administrative Contact:
Karumanchi, Vijay
Yellowthread Corp
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada
(917) 546-6868 Fax --

Technical Contact:
Karumanchi, Vijay
Yellowthread Corp
1705 1055 bay st
toronto, Ontario m5s3a3
Canada
(917) 546-6868 Fax --

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.DEALGETTERS.COM
NS2.DEALGETTERS.COM


Since that time they (Vijay) have edited their info to hide his contact information:

Domain Name: DEALGETTERS.COM
Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
Name Server: NS1.DEALGETTERS.COM
Name Server: NS2.DEALGETTERS.COM
Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Status: clientRenewProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited
Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Updated Date: 18-jun-2010
Creation Date: 30-may-2010
Expiration Date: 30-may-2011

>>> Last update of whois database: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 11:17:00 UTC <<<



To me, that screams scam. The owner doesn't want to be identified publicly or have any trace online as a way to be located. Hello.... aren't the alarm bells going off in your head at this point?

Waiting to see what happens to the site on May 30th, 2011 (The expiry date listed above).

[zoro69]

Yes you can find the whois, it is still difficult to determine if there is any real money behind the site. The address is just a residential condo. It certainly isnt confidence inspiring.

this is him, listed as cofounder
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/vijay-karumanchi/a/178/16b

education "Maharishi Institute of Management"

That is the "yogic flyers", isnt it?

And the plot thickens, is shown as the owner of 5th elementt (restaurant)..."I have received many touching responses to my last email sent in may 2010 stating 5th Elementt's closure." http://www.5thelementt.com/aboutus.php

[00cp]

I think we can both assume there is no money behind this site. If anything there is just a small startup fund to; create the webpage/register the domain and pay a credible-looking person to source out, agree to, and get deals signed.

[canadiankorean]

It's funny how The Butcher cannot meet the demand of the voucher, then a few days later have another deal up on 3 deal sites.

I love how that works.

[dealathons]

Although I agree with much that has been said on every page of this forum, I would like to comment on the idea that all group buying websites are being merged into 1 and all very bad. The actions of 6 greedy sites should not speak for the industry as a whole. There are sites that actually care about the customers and the merchants, there are sites that realize that with out you we are nothing. There are deal sites who work their hearts out to provide the best deal each morning. Yes, I agree there were some very greedy slimy acts committed and trust has been shaken, but look beyond these sites and you will see plenty that care, give back to the community they serve and always stand by the merchants they feature. Many of these sites had the opportunity to feature the butchers, but chose not to for very logical reason. Clearly this deal was off, and too good to be true.

The whole industry is not bad, and the whole industry did not feature the butchers. Why let the despicable actions of those companies ruin something we all enjoy, it is no mistake this is one of the fastest growing industries in history. So rather than abandon ship, look around, trust me, it is worth it!

[JBlue]

It's funny how The Butcher cannot meet the demand of the voucher, then a few days later have another deal up on 3 deal sites.

I love how that works.

THey have sold excess of 25,000 vouchers. Even on assumption they sold @ $55 less commission, they are taking in around $1,000,000. MOre importantly they have 1 year to help all of the customers on weekdays only (260 days/year). This means on average he has to service 96 customers a day. Pretty sure he has killed his regular customer base with his 75% off. Shady origin of 'Organic' supplier. I'm waiting for the blow up.

[00cp]

Although I agree with much that has been said on every page of this forum, I would like to comment on the idea that all group buying websites are being merged into 1 and all very bad. The actions of 6 greedy sites should not speak for the industry as a whole. There are sites that actually care about the customers and the merchants, there are sites that realize that with out you we are nothing. There are deal sites who work their hearts out to provide the best deal each morning. Yes, I agree there were some very greedy slimy acts committed and trust has been shaken, but look beyond these sites and you will see plenty that care, give back to the community they serve and always stand by the merchants they feature. Many of these sites had the opportunity to feature the butchers, but chose not to for very logical reason. Clearly this deal was off, and too good to be true.

The whole industry is not bad, and the whole industry did not feature the butchers. Why let the despicable actions of those companies ruin something we all enjoy, it is no mistake this is one of the fastest growing industries in history. So rather than abandon ship, look around, trust me, it is worth it!

In a perfect world, I would have one bad chicken dinner (for instance) at a Boston Pizza (not that I ever have) that makes me violently ill and say "damn, something was off at that place last night". However in reality I would have that one bad meal, and then I would swear off the entire Boston Pizza chain as a whole, because taking the chance to be ill a 2nd time would just not be worth it. Its just the way some of us work.

Burn me once, shame on me....

[Happy13178]

Although I agree with much that has been said on every page of this forum, I would like to comment on the idea that all group buying websites are being merged into 1 and all very bad. The actions of 6 greedy sites should not speak for the industry as a whole. There are sites that actually care about the customers and the merchants, there are sites that realize that with out you we are nothing. There are deal sites who work their hearts out to provide the best deal each morning. Yes, I agree there were some very greedy slimy acts committed and trust has been shaken, but look beyond these sites and you will see plenty that care, give back to the community they serve and always stand by the merchants they feature. Many of these sites had the opportunity to feature the butchers, but chose not to for very logical reason. Clearly this deal was off, and too good to be true.

The whole industry is not bad, and the whole industry did not feature the butchers. Why let the despicable actions of those companies ruin something we all enjoy, it is no mistake this is one of the fastest growing industries in history. So rather than abandon ship, look around, trust me, it is worth it!

This Butchers debacle isn't the first issue thats come up from deal sites, it just happens to be the current title holder as the worst. The only groupon I've bought recently was a while back for Ostara spa, as a gift to my wife. Spa shut down not long after, presumably for similar reasons. How many times have we seen deals pulled because a coupon went online and the store was overrun by business? People who don't understand how sites like RFD work and how the internet works in general are the ones screwing it up for everyone. It's what happens when there are too many marketing personnel and not enough people thinking about worst case scenarios. Don't like it? Get into another field of work.

[kator]

i finally got a hold of eddie at acadian beef, who is one of the suppliers of the butcher, as featured here http://trueler.com/2011/04/15/where-the-butchers-organic-meats-come-from/#update2

this probably explains how the butcher is making money

eddie told me:
- he does NOT supply organic meat to the butcher
- he instead sells 'naturally raised' which he told me means 'no antibiotics and they eat corn' BUT are still 'intensively farmed' (read factory farmed)
- he himself buys meat from suppliers and cannot say exactly where or which farms the meat comes from.

so there you go. the butchers advertises (see here: http://www.k4t3.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/butchers_metro_buytopia.pdf) and charges for 100% certified organic meat from a local farmer, but you're instead you're getting factory farmed meat from who knows where, just like you would at the grocery store except the animal is hormone free and gets to eat corn

oh and i've been tracking this for a few weeks now and posting all updates of what i find here: http://www.k4t3.org/2011/04/02/the-dark-side-of-online-group-coupons/

[7jaii]

THey have sold excess of 25,000 vouchers. Even on assumption they sold @ $55 less commission, they are taking in around $1,000,000. MOre importantly they have 1 year to help all of the customers on weekdays only (260 days/year). This means on average he has to service 96 customers a day. Pretty sure he has killed his regular customer base with his 75% off. Shady origin of 'Organic' supplier. I'm waiting for the blow up.

Beautiful. Why can Financial & Consumer Reports & Life Segment reporters investigate simple math.

[buddhababy]

I wouldn't get too slap-happy slagging the owner of DealGetters for closing his restaraunt.

When Vijay Karumanchi first opened 5th ElementT on Bay St in 2006, it got good reviews and was named one of the official meeting places for the Toronto International Film Festival (a BIG deal for any restaraunt, HUGE deal for a new restaraunt). For whatever reason(s) that I'm not privvy to, he closed it in May of 2010.

Then 5th ElementT Chef Johnee Savarimuthus and his sous-chef partnered up and bought the 5th ElementT brand and opened the new location at Queen & Bathurst in Jan of 2011.

So the closing of 5th ElementT on Queen St has NOTHING to do with DealGetters.

---------------

I say this without comment on the sustainablilty of DealGetters - I am happy to report that I received a refund cheque from them today. The CSR that I dealt with was very easy to deal with and kept me updated with emails as to the status of the refund ie: issue is with accounting, cheque cut today, cheque mailed today with cheque #.

[buddhababy]

THey have sold excess of 25,000 vouchers. Even on assumption they sold @ $55 less commission, they are taking in around $1,000,000. MOre importantly they have 1 year to help all of the customers on weekdays only (260 days/year). This means on average he has to service 96 customers a day. Pretty sure he has killed his regular customer base with his 75% off. Shady origin of 'Organic' supplier. I'm waiting for the blow up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the most recent deals have no expiry? I seem to recall people loading up on vouchers because of this.

[Cas77]

Although I agree with much that has been said on every page of this forum, I would like to comment on the idea that all group buying websites are being merged into 1 and all very bad. The actions of 6 greedy sites should not speak for the industry as a whole. There are sites that actually care about the customers and the merchants, there are sites that realize that with out you we are nothing. There are deal sites who work their hearts out to provide the best deal each morning. Yes, I agree there were some very greedy slimy acts committed and trust has been shaken, but look beyond these sites and you will see plenty that care, give back to the community they serve and always stand by the merchants they feature. Many of these sites had the opportunity to feature the butchers, but chose not to for very logical reason. Clearly this deal was off, and too good to be true.

The whole industry is not bad, and the whole industry did not feature the butchers. Why let the despicable actions of those companies ruin something we all enjoy, it is no mistake this is one of the fastest growing industries in history. So rather than abandon ship, look around, trust me, it is worth it!

See when a group of businesses simply copycats another business' plan and business model, does not innovate and does no differentiate itself in any way yet raises their hands and screams out 'ME TOO" then this is bound to happen.

Seriously the barrier to entry is incredibly low. Any 13 year old with a 'html for dummies' book and a phone can clone the concept. Many are run by shady people who want anonymity and no transparency by deleting negative comments in their respective forums. A practice hardly confidence inducing.

There might be a good natural gas reseller out there but anytime someone knocks on my door holding a contract with the latest and greatest they're quickly sent on their merry way and I couldn't care less where they came from.

[JBlue]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the most recent deals have no expiry? I seem to recall people loading up on vouchers because of this.

Possible on the recent daily deal sites! Now verified 'Organic" as BS from Acadian.. I don't know what to say as basically "The Butcher" just ripped off consumers in excess of $1,000,000.

[canguy9999]

i finally got a hold of eddie at acadian beef, who is one of the suppliers of the butcher, as featured here http://trueler.com/2011/04/15/where-the-butchers-organic-meats-come-from/#update2

this probably explains how the butcher is making money

eddie told me:
- he does NOT supply organic meat to the butcher
- he instead sells 'naturally raised' which he told me means 'no antibiotics and they eat corn' BUT are still 'intensively farmed' (read factory farmed)
- he himself buys meat from suppliers and cannot say exactly where or which farms the meat comes from.

so there you go. the butchers advertises (see here: http://www.k4t3.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/butchers_metro_buytopia.pdf) and charges for 100% certified organic meat from a local farmer, but you're instead you're getting factory farmed meat from who knows where, just like you would at the grocery store except the animal is hormone free and gets to eat corn

Question: Do we know this is really the only supplier of the Butchers? I do admit, I think you are probably onto something but the fact is this doesn't prove the meat they are selling us isn't organic.

From the start I believe most of us were aware that they sell both Organic and Naturally Raised meat. I meat its right under their name. The price lists provided are suppose to be organic prices, the natural meat costs are suppose to be slightly less I believe someone in the store mentioned 5-8% less.

[JBlue]

Question: Do we know this is really the only supplier of the Butchers? I do admit, I think you are probably onto something but the fact is this doesn't prove the meat they are selling us isn't organic.



I think we have proven they are not organic. Every 'organic' supplier they have listed have been independently (by consumers) contacted with. The replies range from, 'we have not done business with them in over 2 years TO oops wrong supplier..copy 'error' TO this straight telling us 'We don't sell 'organic' meats", which is pretty apparently. I guess we just need to ask 'The Butcher' flat out "Who is your CURRENT supplier for all of your 'Organic' meat products and we would like to verify?" These questions should have been asked by the Daily Deal sites. Anything but a straight answers should be expected for consumer confidence. Anything but is well.. you get the idea.

[kator]

Question: Do we know this is really the only supplier of the Butchers? I do admit, I think you are probably onto something but the fact is this doesn't prove the meat they are selling us isn't organic.

From the start I believe most of us were aware that they sell both Organic and Naturally Raised meat. I meat its right under their name. The price lists provided are suppose to be organic prices, the natural meat costs are suppose to be slightly less I believe someone in the store mentioned 5-8% less.

yes, he has other organic suppliers, like field gate farms who are legitimate.

HOWEVER:
1.) the butchers/buytopia advertised as "100% certified organic" (see http://www.k4t3.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/butchers_metro_buytopia.pdf) you can't be 100% certified organic if some of your product is not organic. 100% means all. not some. all.

2.) there is no differentiation on the online price list on what is organic and what is 'naturally raised'

3.) across the board the prices being charged are slightly higher than the prices you'd see for real 100% certified organic ( http://www.thehealthybutcher.com/orderform.html) you will note from this link how much cheaper 'naturally raised' is. on buytopia it said he got his chicken from acadian farms, yet the prices he charges for chicken are organic prices, not naturally raised.

4.) you will also note how much better the 'naturally raised' stuff is from the healthy butcher:
"Locally-raised using traditional methods, high quality, yet more wallet-friendly. Raised without antibiotics or hormones; humane treatment from birth to death. The pasture or feed are not Certified Organic, and therefore may have been sprayed; however, most of the farmers we deal with run their farm to strict biodynamic standards. We age our Artisanal Beef using a combination of wet and dry ageing, that results in fabulous tasting meat, at a 20-30% savings over the Certified Organic option. A huge step above conventionally raised beef, at competitive prices."

A far, far cry from the factory farmed stuff coming out of Acadian beef.

[zoro69]

I wouldn't get too slap-happy slagging the owner of DealGetters for closing his restaraunt.

When Vijay Karumanchi first opened 5th ElementT on Bay St in 2006, it got good reviews and was named one of the official meeting places for the Toronto International Film Festival (a BIG deal for any restaraunt, HUGE deal for a new restaraunt). For whatever reason(s) that I'm not privvy to, he closed it in May of 2010.

Then 5th ElementT Chef Johnee Savarimuthus and his sous-chef partnered up and bought the 5th ElementT brand and opened the new location at Queen & Bathurst in Jan of 2011.

So the closing of 5th ElementT on Queen St has NOTHING to do with DealGetters.

---------------

I say this without comment on the sustainablilty of DealGetters - I am happy to report that I received a refund cheque from them today. The CSR that I dealt with was very easy to deal with and kept me updated with emails as to the status of the refund ie: issue is with accounting, cheque cut today, cheque mailed today with cheque #.

We are looking at the owner to make a guess on the financial backing on dealgetters, being if the butchers goes under there are potentially x,ooo $100 vouchers out there looking to be refunded. There is no evidence there is significant money behind the site. Cant find any reference to whom else may be a cofounder of dealgetters.

that the restaurant closed instead of being sold as a going concern very strongly suggests it was not doing well financially. Closed restaurant may 2010, started dealgetters may 2010...I'd say related

[pakmode]

I wouldn't get too slap-happy slagging the owner of DealGetters for closing his restaraunt.

When Vijay Karumanchi first opened 5th ElementT on Bay St in 2006, it got good reviews and was named one of the official meeting places for the Toronto International Film Festival (a BIG deal for any restaraunt, HUGE deal for a new restaraunt). For whatever reason(s) that I'm not privvy to, he closed it in May of 2010.

Then 5th ElementT Chef Johnee Savarimuthus and his sous-chef partnered up and bought the 5th ElementT brand and opened the new location at Queen & Bathurst in Jan of 2011.

So the closing of 5th ElementT on Queen St has NOTHING to do with DealGetters.



The old 5th Element closed on Bay and Wellesley because the rent was atrocious. I heard unconfirmed reports it was $20-30K a month.

The new 5th Element on Queen West is fantastic, and I would encourage people to go there and take advantage of their prix fixe specials they have.

[pakmode]

Although I agree with much that has been said on every page of this forum, I would like to comment on the idea that all group buying websites are being merged into 1 and all very bad. The actions of 6 greedy sites should not speak for the industry as a whole. There are sites that actually care about the customers and the merchants, there are sites that realize that with out you we are nothing. There are deal sites who work their hearts out to provide the best deal each morning. Yes, I agree there were some very greedy slimy acts committed and trust has been shaken, but look beyond these sites and you will see plenty that care, give back to the community they serve and always stand by the merchants they feature. Many of these sites had the opportunity to feature the butchers, but chose not to for very logical reason. Clearly this deal was off, and too good to be true.

The whole industry is not bad, and the whole industry did not feature the butchers. Why let the despicable actions of those companies ruin something we all enjoy, it is no mistake this is one of the fastest growing industries in history. So rather than abandon ship, look around, trust me, it is worth it!


Dealathons - your site concerns me in another regard.

You prominently display "In Support of Sick Kids Foundation" throughout your website.

Do you donate a set percentage of all revenues?
Do you donate all proceeds net of expenses?

Your website clearly states:
"Best of all, Dealathons is a proud supporter of Sick Kids Hospital in Toronto, B.C. Children's Hospital in Vancouver and the Alberta Children's Hospital Foundation. "

Somebody could donate $1 or $1M and be a supporter of Sick Kids Hospital.

Please advise what level of financial support and affiliation you have with Sick Kids Foundation.

http://www.dealathons.com/

[dealathons]

I am glad you asked. Dealathons is a proud supporter of children's hospitals. I myself having used one when I was a child. We currently donate a portion of our profits every single day for every single deal and every single sale regardless of if we make a profit or not. $1 Is donated every time someone buys a deal on Dealathons regardless of how much we make or how much the deal costs. Majority of deals net a company between $10 and $22 this means we proudly donate majority of the time between 5% and 10% of our profits. Furthermore we only start in a city when we have the opportunity to give back by joining the children's hospital as you seen in Chicago and LA. We tried to be a little different than everyone and actually get involved in the community and give back.

[buddhababy]

We are looking at the owner to make a guess on the financial backing on dealgetters, being if the butchers goes under there are potentially x,ooo $100 vouchers out there looking to be refunded. There is no evidence there is significant money behind the site. Cant find any reference to whom else may be a cofounder of dealgetters.

that the restaurant closed instead of being sold as a going concern very strongly suggests it was not doing well financially. Closed restaurant may 2010, started dealgetters may 2010...I'd say related

This is a fair statement, thank you.



Question: Do we know this is really the only supplier of the Butchers? I do admit, I think you are probably onto something but the fact is this doesn't prove the meat they are selling us isn't organic.
From the start I believe most of us were aware that they sell both Organic and Naturally Raised meat. I meat its right under their name. The price lists provided are suppose to be organic prices, the natural meat costs are suppose to be slightly less I believe someone in the store mentioned 5-8% less.

My feelings exactly.

[Takada]

Too late, this location is also closed.

A bit off topic, but are you sure the new location is closed too? I still have vouchers for this place. :cry:

[yoyogu]

Oh no, I hope they aren't using this meat glue.....

http://au.todaytonight.yahoo.com/article/8989315/consumer/meat-glue

[buddhababy]

A bit off topic, but are you sure the new location is closed too? I still have vouchers for this place. :cry:

Good thing you asked - I think I was wrong. Wherever I read that the new location was also closed, I can't find anymore.:facepalm:

I've removed it from my post.

[canguy9999]

yes, he has other organic suppliers, like field gate farms who are legitimate.

HOWEVER:
1.) the butchers/buytopia advertised as "100% certified organic" (see http://www.k4t3.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/butchers_metro_buytopia.pdf) you can't be 100% certified organic if some of your product is not organic. 100% means all. not some. all.

100% Certified Organic is referring to the fact they have "100% certified organic meat" available. This is what the majority of their business is suppose to be. If you look at their logo they also say "Naturally Raised"; they have stated this before, they have also stated how they have the beef brisket that isn't organic or naturally raised. So is it a surprise to anyone that the store isn't 100% organic? This doesn't mean they don't sell organic meat. I guess it can be misleading to some, but I really think you are jumping on something small to try and support the fact you really want to be able to find the fault here. But this isn't evidence that they don't really have organic product.


2.) there is no differentiation on the online price list on what is organic and what is 'naturally raised'

Although this isn't widely known I guess, the Butchers had stated that the price lists we're for organic meat. Prices for naturally raised were suppose to be $1-2 less depending on the item. When I got the price for three products that we're naturally raised I figured it was 5-8% decrease.


3.) across the board the prices being charged are slightly higher than the prices you'd see for real 100% certified organic ( http://www.thehealthybutcher.com/orderform.html) you will note from this link how much cheaper 'naturally raised' is. on buytopia it said he got his chicken from acadian farms, yet the prices he charges for chicken are organic prices, not naturally raised.

Really they can price their product how ever much they want and what they can get away with in the market. Yes I have issue with them raising prices just for this deal, but there, and that is deceiving but I'm not talking about that here. There is no law requiring there to be such a gap in pricing from organic to natural. Again this proves nothing to do with their product being organic or not.


4.) you will also note how much better the 'naturally raised' stuff is from the healthy butcher:
"Locally-raised using traditional methods, high quality, yet more wallet-friendly. Raised without antibiotics or hormones; humane treatment from birth to death. The pasture or feed are not Certified Organic, and therefore may have been sprayed; however, most of the farmers we deal with run their farm to strict biodynamic standards. We age our Artisanal Beef using a combination of wet and dry ageing, that results in fabulous tasting meat, at a 20-30% savings over the Certified Organic option. A huge step above conventionally raised beef, at competitive prices."

A far, far cry from the factory farmed stuff coming out of Acadian beef.

Again this proves nothing to do with it being organic or not. It may say the quality of the Healthy Butcher could be a lot better; but even that it doesn't prove. Also the beef from Acadian Beef...maybe this is just the boat loads of Brisket hes bringing in that is neither organic or natural. We don't know.

Really someone needs to go to the butchers and ask them straight out to see their organic certification and ask which farms they buy organic product from. A reporter doing so would be great, but anyone who goes in when the store is not crazy busy should hopefully be given an answer; then it can be investigated further.

I do believe they aren't being fully transparent at the moment, and that you could be right. But the facts remain to be 100% clear.

[mabman]

Further to the discussion about "why not just ask TheButchers who their suppliers are" instead of relying on what they told the deal sites and put in their ads ... (based on later investigation we now know the organic supplier information they put in their deal ads is bogus).
I copied this from a recent webpiggy deal discussion page and it came right from webpiggy administrators:


Hello, we just spoke to The Butchers this morning to get more details on his products. The Butchers will provide certificates for their organic products and/or paper work for their naturally raised products with their customers upon request. We encourage Webpiggy users to keep this discussion board free from profanity and post questions related to this deal. Thank You!

[Happy13178]

The old 5th Element closed on Bay and Wellesley because the rent was atrocious. I heard unconfirmed reports it was $20-30K a month.

The new 5th Element on Queen West is fantastic, and I would encourage people to go there and take advantage of their prix fixe specials they have.

+1 on rent...lots of restaurants, good and bad, close down because of rent prices. Remember East Side Marios in Eaton Centre? Where I think Club Monaco is now? That place made money hand over fist, but shut down when their rent got raised to $100,000 a month. Owners probably didn't want to spend to relocate, and shut down instead.

[YLSF]

I copied this from a recent webpiggy deal discussion page and it came right from webpiggy administrators:


Hello, we just spoke to The Butchers this morning to get more details on his products. The Butchers will provide certificates for their organic products and/or paper work for their naturally raised products with their customers upon request. We encourage Webpiggy users to keep this discussion board free from profanity and post questions related to this deal. Thank You!

I am not close by but if I was, I would try for this. I could see being shouted out of the store though based on previous customers experiences asking for things that should have been provided under the deal for example.

Someone should also go during lunch hour and see what they are really doing in the store :)

[iridium001]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the most recent deals have no expiry? I seem to recall people loading up on vouchers because of this.

Most deals have no expiry, you're right.

But what happens when the coupons to those businesses go belly up? Then what? You turn to the deal site you bought it from and ask for a refund. Then what if that group buying site you purchased it from does not have the finance backing to issue you a refund...then you're screwed.

There's always your credit card company but isn't there a limit as to how long you're protected for?

[Happy13178]

I am glad you asked. Dealathons is a proud supporter of children's hospitals. I myself having used one when I was a child. We currently donate a portion of our profits every single day for every single deal and every single sale regardless of if we make a profit or not. $1 Is donated every time someone buys a deal on Dealathons regardless of how much we make or how much the deal costs. Majority of deals net a company between $10 and $22 this means we proudly donate majority of the time between 5% and 10% of our profits. Furthermore we only start in a city when we have the opportunity to give back by joining the children's hospital as you seen in Chicago and LA. We tried to be a little different than everyone and actually get involved in the community and give back.

That's quite the load of marketingspeak. If your company is legit and doesn't run with the idiots backing Butchers and other scammy businesses, then you're probably fine. If not, you'll probably go under when the smaller companies implode down the road. In the meantime, easy with the shilling.

[callmethecat]

I guess I'm not getting a refund.......



Hi Callmethecat,

Thank you for your email.

We spoke to Marlon at The Butchers and he has informed us that as stated on the voucher, they carry both Organic and Naturally Raised Meats. He receives shipments every week of both, and is more than willing to show you the invoices and certifications for the organic meat if you request it.

Please contact them at 416 483 5777 for any further inquiries about their products.

Thank you for using Dealfind.

[00cp]

If you want a refund your best points to use are:

- Lack of selection
- Altered term deals after the fact
- Poor service / attitude

These can't be debated by the coupon companies, the source of the meat can.

[Dealbyer]

A lot of great input here on this issue. I joined the forum exactly to read about this Deal, as it seems there are quite a few loopholes. I agree with what some have said regarding an eventual bad ending to the whole deal structure itself. Even if the butcher's buys the whole animal, butcher's it on location and then sells the product, the price at which they are selling it with these deals is crazy.

I know that dealfind, webpiggy and whoever else charges a 40% commission on their purchases. That means that The Butcher's gets just $59 for $400 worth of product... hmm.

My guess is that they are financing new fridges, changes, expansions, etc, with all the cash. Don't get it wrong, dealfind and webpiggy are not writing Butcher's a cheque, they pay out on 30-60-90 day platforms. Apparently Groupon only pays the merchant for the deals that are sold and then redeemed... can't verify that, but that is what I have heard.

IMHO, I think that either The Butcher's will soon have to partially shut down, maybe remain open a few days of the week and then frustrate consumers. Consumers will in turn demand refunds... refunds will come, or they will not, companies will deteriorate consumer confidence will take a shaking.

or.

Butcher's will use the influx of money to buy new fridges, buy product, expand into the Marlins fish store next door. They will receive more public exposure, as was demonstrated with their tv spot, this will "hopefully" build some base of retention. They will then feature their deal on another deal site with equal success, new buyers enter the market each day, this forum has influence, but it is limited IMO.

Not sure if you guys and gals saw the Dealticker Butcher's deal last week. There was a banner on The Butcher's website stating that deal does not exist and that Dealticker is being fraudulent, Dealticker ran the deal with lots on controversy on their site. They eventually shut down the deal and mailed all their subscribers a sad, illogical, reasoning as to why the deal was stopped. They explained that it was The Butcher's fault and that they are pursuing legal action... YEA OK. The boy with the legal salutation on his e-mail is contacting dealticker... hot steam much.

Anyways, sorry about the lengthy rant.. but i HATE these types of deals and then companies like Dealticker who play on the exposure by abusing their subscribers.

Cheers.

[YLSF]

For the longest time they said they would be open on Good Friday, now, they are saying they will be closed on Good Friday. I guess they realized it was against the law to open on Good Friday...


------------
STORE HOURS

Update April 11th, 2011: The Butchers will be CLOSED on Good Friday.

Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm


Also, I thought they extended their week day hours to go until 8pm... It shows they close at 6pm now.

[gr8dlr]

For the longest time they said they would be open on Good Friday, now, they are saying they will be closed on Good Friday. I guess they realized it was against the law to open on Good Friday...


------------
STORE HOURS

Update April 11th, 2011: The Butchers will be CLOSED on Good Friday.

Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm


Also, I thought they extended their week day hours to go until 8pm... It shows they close at 6pm now.

Actually back around the first week of April, their hours were changed to 8am-8pm. Now it's changed again to 10-11:30 and 1pm-6pm. So they went from 12 hour day to 6.5 hour day (almost half). Better go soon before they go to a three hour day. I think they're spinning the Tim Hortons wheel to determine their hours every week. Talk about confusion.

[kingrukus]

What a god damn mess this company is. I am GLAD I didn't buy a voucher for this con arist meat shop.

[CSAgent]

What a god damn mess this company is. I am GLAD I didn't buy a voucher for this con arist meat shop.

100% agreed.

I thought about getting a few vouchers for summer BBQs, but after reading this whole thread and the fiasco, hell no!

But, it does make for an entertaining read this whole situation!

If it were me and I have bought these vouchers, I'd get my refund ASAP while I still can.

[gr8dlr]

deleted.

[00cp]

I'm happy this thread has served a purpose and saved people from making the awful mistake of dealing with Marlon and his gang of scam artists. The only other things I hope to come out of this debacle would be that Marlon's new fish shop flops, and he spends the rest of his life fighting lawsuits.

[7jaii]

For the longest time they said they would be open on Good Friday, now, they are saying they will be closed on Good Friday. I guess they realized it was against the law to open on Good Friday...


------------
STORE HOURS

Update April 11th, 2011: The Butchers will be CLOSED on Good Friday.

Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm


Also, I thought they extended their week day hours to go until 8pm... It shows they close at 6pm now.


Actually back around the first week of April, their hours were changed to 8am-8pm. Now it's changed again to 10-11:30 and 1pm-6pm. So they went from 12 hour day to 6.5 hour day (almost half). Better go soon before they go to a three hour day. I think they're spinning the Tim Hortons wheel to determine their hours every week. Talk about confusion.

It's just so confusing for customers. Food restrictions, hours for cleaning, request for certification, and the long lists of changes - often DAILY.

jokes: you can purchase beef but only during days when the previous evening was a quarter moon and venus is aligned with mercury. You can add cash to purchase Tandori but only on Friday between 2PM-3PM while you pay using your right toes - payment from your left toes not allowed. We can show you certification but only in the presence of your paid Public Notary, and only after it's shown in black light in the basement for 10 seconds. Not 9 seconds, not 11 seconds, 10 seconds exactly.

/Satire

[icietailleurs]

If you want a refund your best points to use are:

- Lack of selection
- Altered term deals after the fact
- Poor service / attitude

These can't be debated by the coupon companies, the source of the meat can.

I'm very happy to report that I got a refund for both of my vouchers bought last year on Kijiji Daily Deals, their customer service is very impressive, I got a response with a refund within 1 hour, no questions asked.

Lesson Learned - only deal with reputable group deal companies. I've had terrific service from Groupon and Kijiji Daily Deals myself.

[MikeJefe]

Wow, they actually voluntarily mentioned the board of heath and a cleanliness issue...can't recall ever hearing a food establishment voluntarily admit to such, just rumours of such have put places out of business. People who bought prior to closing for the needed cleaning time realize what this is saying, right?.

If the place is so dirty that they have to close during lunch hours, the city health department should have already closed them down or at least issued a warning. Which is all public record. If they have not been issued a warning by Toronto Health then this is a bald-faced lie. But we already know it is.

[AAA]

For the longest time they said they would be open on Good Friday, now, they are saying they will be closed on Good Friday. I guess they realized it was against the law to open on Good Friday...


------------
STORE HOURS

Update April 11th, 2011: The Butchers will be CLOSED on Good Friday.

Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm


Also, I thought they extended their week day hours to go until 8pm... It shows they close at 6pm now.


Good news for you, the Butcher is open on Friday, but closed on Easter Sunday and Monday. Ha! They don't open on Sunday and Monday anyway, why bother? I think this shop really enjoy getting all the attention. Oh, see the discrepancy in Red, is it drafted by a kid? Oh well, thank god I don't have to deal with this crazy butcher anymore. BTW, if you bought your vouchers from Dealfind and Buytopia, you can redeem them on Saturday according to this public announcement which can be changed daily. Don't forget to check the public notices before heading out the door to the Butcher shop.


STORE HOURS
The Butchers will be OPEN on Good Friday. Closed on Easter Sunday and Monday.

Monday: CLOSED
Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1:30pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm

** Due to an influx of vouchers we have decided to close the store from 11:30am-12:30pm weekdays to clean and restock the store. After discussions with Toronto Health we have taken precautionary measures to ensure we continue to keep up our standards around cleanliness of the store.


VOUCHER CONDITIONS

Only 1 voucher can be used at a time.
Vouchers are NOT valid on Saturday. Please note this does not apply to Buytopia and Deal Find voucher holders.

[mabman]

Well, they’ve totally changed their website now. Its down to a single page. I’m wondering what was wrong enough on the other pages for them to remove them. Also, they are now OPEN on good friday. Maybe tomorrow they will revert it back to being closed.

================================================== ====================================
The Butchers will be OPEN on Good Friday. The store will be closed on Easter Sunday and Monday.
We are staying open on Good Friday to accomodate our voucher holders so please come into the store and use your vouchers at this time.

The Butchers will be OPEN on Good Friday. Closed on Easter Sunday and Monday.

Monday: CLOSED
Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1:30pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm

** Due to an influx of vouchers we have decided to close the store from 11:30am-12:30pm weekdays to clean and restock the store. After discussions with Toronto Health we have taken precautionary measures to ensure we continue to keep up our standards around cleanliness of the store.

[00cp]

Just saw their new webpage redesign... snaaaaaaaaaazzzzzzy

Matter of time, just a matter of time... You can literally see the bow starting to dip under the waterline..

[mabman]

Do they even proof read before posting ? Why don't they just say DON'T COME DURING YOUR LUNCH BREAK BUT RATHER WHEN IT IS MOST INCONVENIENT FOR YOU.

(from http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html )

Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1:30pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm

** Due to an influx of vouchers we have decided to close the store from 11:30am-12:30pm weekdays to clean and restock the store. After discussions with Toronto Health we have taken precautionary measures to ensure we continue to keep up our standards around cleanliness of the store.

[MikeJefe]

Well, they’ve totally changed their website now. Its down to a single page. I’m wondering what was wrong enough on the other pages for them to remove them. Also, they are now OPEN on good friday. Maybe tomorrow they will revert it back to being closed.

I can just imagine how long the lineup will be on Friday... you better camp out Thursday night if you want to have any chance at taking home any product. Won't be organic, of course, but at least you'll get fed...

I hope it's not too late to suggest this, but if anybody is going today, get some video footage of your visit (preferably with a hidden camera), that would make for some viral YouTube material for all the forums and blogs following these guys (RFD and Trueler especially).

Actually I'd just say go in with a camcorder with the bright lamp in their face and say "if you give me bad service or try to toss me from the store, this is going on YouTube tonight and will be posted on every forum and blog about you." What can they do? It would be like pointing a gun at them, but legal :-) One of the comments on Trueler was by someone who went today and they actually said to him "we reserve the right not to serve you". I wish that guy had a video camera running!

[AcidBomber]

I can just imagine how long the lineup will be on Friday... you better camp out Thursday night if you want to have any chance at taking home any product. Won't be organic, of course, but at least you'll get fed...

RFD meet outside The Butchers on Friday?
we can 'investigate' (take pics) and hand out flyers with links to this thread to everyone! :cheesygri

[kator]

RFD meet outside The Butchers on Friday?
we can 'investigate' (take pics) and hand out flyers with links to this thread to everyone! :cheesygri

lol.

im surprised no one has organised a full blown protest yet. the butcher is lucky cuz im meant to be at home 24/7 writing my phd thesis, otherwise id be all over that.

[YLSF]

Do they even proof read before posting ? Why don't they just say DON'T COME DURING YOUR LUNCH BREAK BUT RATHER WHEN IT IS MOST INCONVENIENT FOR YOU.



Ha, their hours are all over the place. Either their closure ends at 12:30, 1:00pm or 1:30 depending on what part of the website you read.

I am also wondering what else they are hiding from the rest of the site?? Why would they eliminate it?

[kingrukus]

Everyone that purchased vouchers for this scumbag company needs to fight wagjag or whomever they purchased from to get a refund, since terms and conditions were changed after the fact. Otherwise fight your credit card companies and claim on the grounds of fraud. This company needs to die and go under - I hate when people are taken advantage of.

[canguy9999]

Everyone that purchased vouchers for this scumbag company needs to fight wagjag or whomever they purchased from to get a refund, since terms and conditions were changed after the fact. Otherwise fight your credit card companies and claim on the grounds of fraud. This company needs to die and go under - I hate when people are taken advantage of.

I had no issue getting refunds from Webpiggy or Dealfind. Webpiggy did take longer to get back to me but they refunded me very quickly after they go back to me. Dealfind replied next day, said refund takes 4-5 weeks.

[Diamond_Ace]

I had no issue getting refunds from Webpiggy or Dealfind. Webpiggy did take longer to get back to me but they refunded me very quickly after they go back to me. Dealfind replied next day, said refund takes 4-5 weeks.

4 to 5 weeks for a refund??! That's a long time.

[canguy9999]

4 to 5 weeks for a refund??! That's a long time.

err sorry 4-5 days. Don't know why I said weeks.

[Thedbs]

I emailed DealTicker last Tues via email - no response. I called last Friday and spoke with someone who said they get someone to look into this but they normally take 5 days to respond and they primarily do this through email. Still nothing as of today. I wrote again and threatened with a credit card charge back if I don't hear back and this doesn't get resolved do to the changes of terms declared on the voucher. Ugg. What a pain in the ***** .

[mabman]

Some very interesting new developments. No wonder they are reducing their store hours ... between finding new suppliers, creating new companies and designing new web sites they hardly have time to sell anything.

http://trueler.com/2011/04/21/marlins-fish-marlons-butchery-meat/

[devilsknight]

Just out of curiosity. To those who started emailing the person who wrote the Toronto Star article love fest about the Butchers...did he/she ever reply to you about it ?

Also what happened with the Global News guy who was posting on here about it ?

Sorry I don't feel like sifting through 30+ pages of posts :)

Thanks !

[00cp]

Just out of curiosity. To those who started emailing the person who wrote the Toronto Star article love fest about the Butchers...did he/she ever reply to you about it ?

Also what happened with the Global News guy who was posting on here about it ?

Sorry I don't feel like sifting through 30+ pages of posts :)

Thanks !

I would as well be interested to see if either of them have the journalistic integrity to write a follow-up article admitting their errors in quickly praising the Butchers operation (or should we be calling it "Marlon's" now?????).

Maybe with all the evidence and research done for them (ie. work) they can write or broadcast a factual article / argument this time around and not just fluff Marlon.

[kator]

I would as well be interested to see if either of them have the journalistic integrity to write a follow-up article admitting their errors in quickly praising the Butchers operation (or should we be calling it "Marlon's" now?????).

Maybe with all the evidence and research done for them (ie. work) they can write or broadcast a factual article / argument this time around and not just fluff Marlon.


well said! +1

[iridium001]

Some very interesting new developments. No wonder they are reducing their store hours ... between finding new suppliers, creating new companies and designing new web sites they hardly have time to sell anything.

http://trueler.com/2011/04/21/marlins-fish-marlons-butchery-meat/

Wow, I am absolutely floored.

Now this is the mark of a true businessman and a scammer boys and girls! Pay attention, this is how you create tremendous cash flow and hype, close down your business surfacing under a new name so you don't have to honor your past vouchers that customers readily forked over their hard earned money for! :facepalm:

[rfdrfd]

I guess I have a good and bad story to tell.

Good: the lamb rack was very tender, excellent taste and texture. All my diners were very impressed with it

Bad: I sent my order online, 10 days later, still no reply. I emailed them and 2 days after that, finally a response telling me I can pick it up on last weekend. The day came, I phoned the online order #, lady answered the phone and has no record of my order. But, she said it was no problem, she will call the store now to get it ready for me. I arrive at the store 2hrs later, staff looks in the order book, no such name or order. Someone mentioned there was no more lamb rack left, but another guy says "let me check in the back". He comes back with 1.5 lbs only, I ordered 2 lbs. So, he gave me a credit for the remainder.

[Bookpreviews]

Those sausages that are supposed to be "all natural" and look like sponges, there has to be something wrong with those.

I have some all natural, but not organic chicken sausage here and they look more like solid chicken meat with fruits in them (sausage i have has whole cranberries in it).
The sausages I have here (from a quebec farm) they also did not have a lot of water when defrosted...actually there was no water that came out of them and they did not shrink at all.
I am paying around $11.50 for 500 grams chicken sausages.

So did anyone try to eat those "sponge sausages"??

[00cp]

Sean O'Shea.... Vanessa Lu...... you're both so strangely silent now??? Where are the promised follow-ups to this story?

Figures...

[mabman]

(article in the Toronto Star - the print edition also)

Roseman: Why you might be wary of Internet coupons

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/979709--roseman-why-you-might-be-wary-of-internet-coupons

[Happy13178]

Sean O'Shea.... Vanessa Lu...... you're both so strangely silent now??? Where are the promised follow-ups to this story?

Figures...

Don't expect much...Global is just barely "news-oriented" at best. They're much more Infotainment than anything else. Seems like most people here are doing a good job following up themselves.

[gr8dlr]

(article in the Toronto Star - the print edition also)

Roseman: Why you might be wary of Internet coupons

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/979709--roseman-why-you-might-be-wary-of-internet-coupons

Stupid thing about that article is that she says she bought the Webpiggy deal for $400 of meat to test what others have reported...but she hasn't used it yet. Why did she publish the article then at this time....she should've went first then reported her findings as well.

What she would've found out is that the Butcher changed the terms...I know (witnessed it firsthand) they have said that you can only use $150 of the Webpiggy deal/day. She would've seen first hand what people have already reported.

Perhaps she was bribed (with free meat) not to report that part!

[pakmode]

Perhaps she was bribed (with free meat) not to report that part!

Listen, sarcasm or not, I think you're out of line with the last line of your post.

On the internet, it's easy to make anonymous accusations like this, but in the real world your accusation could be sued for libel and slandering.

Roseman even interviewed Kate Raynes-Goldie who has posted numerous times on this thread under the screename 'Kator'.

I would retract your post if I were you. It's ill-advised to say a columnist was bribed with free meat.

[Jdog75]

Finally Ellen stepped up to the plate. I believe this article servies its purpose and that is to raise awareness. That's her job. I have no doubt she will write more if she also gets screwed with her coupon.

Plus I got quoted :)

Very happy to see this article. Ellen Roseman is the queen of consumer advocacy compared to other shills in the media world i.e. Sean

[Happy13178]

Listen, sarcasm or not, I think you're out of line with the last line of your post.

On the internet, it's easy to make anonymous accusations like this, but in the real world your accusation could be sued for libel and slandering.

Roseman even interviewed Kate Raynes-Goldie who has posted numerous times on this thread under the screename 'Kator'.

I would retract your post if I were you. It's ill-advised to say a columnist was bribed with free meat.

+1. It's pretty rare to find people like her getting bribes of any kind. It virtually always means instant termination, even for someone really high profile. The only time you see it on any semi-regular basis is more on the entertainment side of things.

[kator]

Listen, sarcasm or not, I think you're out of line with the last line of your post.

On the internet, it's easy to make anonymous accusations like this, but in the real world your accusation could be sued for libel and slandering.

Roseman even interviewed Kate Raynes-Goldie who has posted numerous times on this thread under the screename 'Kator'.

I would retract your post if I were you. It's ill-advised to say a columnist was bribed with free meat.

welllll she didn't actually interview me. i talked with her on twitter but didnt realise she would publish it. weird she mentioned twitter as the venue rather than the huge blog post i did: http://www.k4t3.org/2011/04/02/the-dark-side-of-online-group-coupons/

either way, im impressed with her story. finally someone covered customer complaints and did their homework!

[mabman]

What she would've found out is that the Butcher changed the terms...I know (witnessed it firsthand) they have said that you can only use $150 of the Webpiggy deal/day.

Wow, thats the first I've heard of that complaint (and I was one of the ones that started the initial complaining ;)
That is definately changing the rules of the game b/c one of their deals was $100 for $400 and no where in that deal did it stipulate you can only use part (in this case $150) of it daily. Note, the original deal specified $100 for $350 of organic meat and $50 to be used at Marlin's Fish Shop but in the discussion for the deal, Webpiggy confirmed that the entire $400 could be used for meat products.


Have any other people been refused when trying to use more than $150 of their voucher ?

[YLSF]

I was one of the people to contact Ellen regarding this story. She quoted me too even though I didn't know she was going to use that in a story. Anyway, I am happy that someone in mainstream press brought up the issue finally.

Overall I have had great experiences with group buy sites but I am becoming more and more selective on what deals I buy now.

[Jdog75]

I love how someone way back when in this thread said there was no chance main stream media would write about this. I emailed Ellen almost two months ago now and finally it's out. Ellen took the time to do research. I wasn't expecting to be quoted by name via an email, but that's cool.

I think I can finally put this issue to rest.

Good luck online couponers!!

[gr8dlr]

OK I retract and apologize for that part about bribery [I did say PERHAPS]...it still doesn't excuse her for mentioning that she bought a deal and didn't bother to check it for herself what the customer service was like or to witness what others have posted - this would've have given the story some more oomph.

and to answer another poster I was there and heard it first hand on the Webpiggy deal. Guy went in and before he even started to figure out what he wanted, the lady behind the counter said he could only use $150 of the deal and he'd have to come back at a later date. He wasn't happy because he said he came from some distance and didn't want to come back.

[YLSF]

Kate (Kator) is on CFRB right now

1010am in Toronto area

My sister just called me because I had told her the story about it before. Missed the first part but listening right now

EDIT: - Kate, good job. If you have a recording of the interview please post it up or a link to it so I can hear the earlier part.

[YLSF]

In the Chowhound thread people are also posting that there was $ limits on how much they could buy. Before Easter it was like $25! You can't even buy a steak for $20 there.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/772531

[JBlue]

Kate (Kator) is on CFRB right now

1010am in Toronto area

My sister just called me because I had told her the story about it before. Missed the first part but listening right now

EDIT: - Kate, good job. If you have a recording of the interview please post it up or a link to it so I can hear the earlier part.

Could you give a summary of what was said on the radio? thx

[kator]

Kate (Kator) is on CFRB right now

1010am in Toronto area

My sister just called me because I had told her the story about it before. Missed the first part but listening right now

EDIT: - Kate, good job. If you have a recording of the interview please post it up or a link to it so I can hear the earlier part.

thanks:) i was tired, so glad it sounded okay!

there should be a podcast of it here http://www.newstalk1010.com/Episodes.aspx?PID=1755

[easterclause]

Listen, sarcasm or not, I think you're out of line with the last line of your post.

On the internet, it's easy to make anonymous accusations like this, but in the real world your accusation could be sued for libel and slandering.

Roseman even interviewed Kate Raynes-Goldie who has posted numerous times on this thread under the screename 'Kator'.

I would retract your post if I were you. It's ill-advised to say a columnist was bribed with free meat.

It's clear it's his opinion, and conjecture, and he hasn't portrayed it as fact, so no, he should not be worried about libel laws.

[YLSF]

Could you give a summary of what was said on the radio? thx

The host (Jim Richards) was asking about coupon sites in general and about the deal at The Butchers. (Did they contact you Kate? I imagine this has nothing to do with your actual research/work does it? Are you a student or actually a researcher?). Anyway, Kate talked about how they sold over $3,000,000 "worth" of meat and how the company is changing the terms and conditions of the deal and how there is very little to protect customers. She basically said to be careful who you buy deals from and that you could try to get refunds from the deal site. A guy named "Frank" called in and talked about how what the deal site offers is great for teh deal site to make money but as a business it wasn't that great a deal for him. People drive from far away to get a deal but then don't come back again. Not sure what his business was though, sounded like he had some sort of product.

[canadiankorean]

Anyone else have a recent experience there?

I wanna hear more dirt.

[JBlue]

Anyone else have a recent experience there?

I wanna hear more dirt.

Thanks for hte link on the podcast.

Check > http://trueler.com/2011/04/21/marlins-fish-marlons-butchery-meat/#comment-10540

Apparently they changed the terms again to $25 limit on orders. Which is ******** considering the prices they charge for their pretend 'organic' meat.

[angekfire]

Thanks for hte link on the podcast.

Check > http://trueler.com/2011/04/21/marlins-fish-marlons-butchery-meat/#comment-10540

Apparently they changed the terms again to $25 limit on orders. Which is ******** considering the prices they charge for their pretend 'organic' meat.

Wow, that is crazy. $25 at a time of $400 means you are going to have to visit them 16 times to redeem your coupon? At their already ridiculously reduced store hours that is going to be almost impossible, and pretty much impossible to not spend more than the $25 on each visit.

[pakmode]

It's clear it's his opinion, and conjecture, and he hasn't portrayed it as fact, so no, he should not be worried about libel laws.

Yea great advice, tell him to write an article or publicly show his face and say that.
I'm not saying he's guilty. But if somebody said that about me, I'd be suing and protecting my name and integrity from slander and defamation.

[pakmode]

The host (Jim Richards) was asking about coupon sites in general and about the deal at The Butchers. (Did they contact you Kate? I imagine this has nothing to do with your actual research/work does it? Are you a student or actually a researcher?). Anyway, Kate talked about how they sold over $3,000,000 "worth" of meat and how the company is changing the terms and conditions of the deal and how there is very little to protect customers. She basically said to be careful who you buy deals from and that you could try to get refunds from the deal site. A guy named "Frank" called in and talked about how what the deal site offers is great for teh deal site to make money but as a business it wasn't that great a deal for him. People drive from far away to get a deal but then don't come back again. Not sure what his business was though, sounded like he had some sort of product.

Kate's a PhD Candidate whose specialty is Internet Studies, I believe. She's posted links of some of her writings earlier in this thread.

This is what I've been saying for awhile now, the media's been looking for some credible experts, and they finally got one in Kator.
They needed to interview real experts who study and analyze this area, rather then jokes like Marlon.

[easterclause]

Yea great advice, tell him to write an article or publicly show his face and say that.
I'm not saying he's guilty. But if somebody said that about me, I'd be suing and protecting my name and integrity from slander and defamation.

You're allowed to state your opinion based on the facts, as long as you don't defame someone by portraying your opinion as fact. I don't think you'd get far in court over that. And as is so often the course, people who try to shut someone down to protect their name have to have the case aired in court, and then wouldn't it be interesting if the OP's opinion was actually proven true? Sometimes, staying quiet is the best way to protect your reputation.

[kator]

The host (Jim Richards) was asking about coupon sites in general and about the deal at The Butchers. (Did they contact you Kate? I imagine this has nothing to do with your actual research/work does it? Are you a student or actually a researcher?). Anyway, Kate talked about how they sold over $3,000,000 "worth" of meat and how the company is changing the terms and conditions of the deal and how there is very little to protect customers. She basically said to be careful who you buy deals from and that you could try to get refunds from the deal site. A guy named "Frank" called in and talked about how what the deal site offers is great for teh deal site to make money but as a business it wasn't that great a deal for him. People drive from far away to get a deal but then don't come back again. Not sure what his business was though, sounded like he had some sort of product.

lol yes, i am an actual, real life, (published!) university researcher and teacher (as well as doing my phd). it is related as my area of research is the internet and social media. and yes, they did contact me through my blog post (http://www.k4t3.org/2011/04/02/the-dark-side-of-online-group-coupons/).

[pakmode]

You're allowed to state your opinion based on the facts, as long as you don't defame someone by portraying your opinion as fact. I don't think you'd get far in court over that. And as is so often the course, people who try to shut someone down to protect their name have to have the case aired in court, and then wouldn't it be interesting if the OP's opinion was actually proven true? Sometimes, staying quiet is the best way to protect your reputation.

Lol, so you actually believe the columnist may have been bribed with some meat?
Maybe they got some bribed brined brisket?

[gatorb6]

Hey guys, lurked on this thread for a while because I purchased the original Butchers deal on Deal Getters way back in January. The one that was more "reasonable" - $40 for $100 worth of meat. Never got around to using it when more Butcher deals sprung up and the whole fiasco started. After hearing so many issues, I didn't even want it anymore so I emailed DealGetters last week asking for a refund. To my surprise Vijay responded pretty quickly saying they would refund the full amount but give them until Monday (I emailed them on a Friday afternoon). On Monday, one of the customer service reps emailed me for my mailing address which I gave to him. Then said the cheque for $40 is in the mail and should get it in a week. Well I just want to confirm that I got it today. Assuming it doesn't bounce I was actually pretty impressed with the service by DealGetters. I am sure they have been refunding a lot of the Butcher's vouchers as they didn't question me at all when I requested the refund.

[Thedbs]

Wow. That's great. I wrote them over a week ago and haven't gotten any response whatsoever.

[CSAgent]

Thanks for hte link on the podcast.

Check > http://trueler.com/2011/04/21/marlins-fish-marlons-butchery-meat/#comment-10540

Apparently they changed the terms again to $25 limit on orders. Which is ******** considering the prices they charge for their pretend 'organic' meat.

This is hilarious...

If you visit their site (The Butchers), there is a little blurb at the bottom that reads:

-------------------------------------
"Update April 9th, 2011: The team at The Butchers have stated numerous times that you can NOT use more than one voucher at a time. We are doing our best to accomodate all voucher holders, however we never expected to set a North American record with our voucher deals. Please be patient with us and our staff as it's unfair to yell and scream at the staff if we run low on stock. Due to this behavior we will not honor vouchers on weekends. This policy DOES NOT apply to Buytopia or Deal Find voucher holder.

Please note a portion of the proceeds from these remaining voucher deals will go to support the Cancer Society in honour of Marlon's father who recently passed away after a battle with cancer."
------------------------------------

Unfair for customers to yell and scream? What about that it's unfair for all the people who bought it and can't use it when he keeps changing his terms?

The 2nd line, I don't know if I can believe him. He didn't state which Cancer Society, as there are many (Canadian, Breast, Colon, Kids, Pancreatic, etc.)

As someone who's donated to the main one (The Canadian Cancer Society), you are more than able to get the full amount donated back when you claim it on your tax refund the following year!! So even if he donates a portion in 2011, he can claim it and get it all back from the government in 2012!! LoL!

[Cas77]

As someone who's donated to the main one (The Canadian Cancer Society), you are more than able to get the full amount donated back when you claim it on your tax refund the following year!! So even if he donates a portion in 2011, he can claim it and get it all back from the government in 2012!! LoL!

Well if you got back what you donated you better hope you don't get audited.

Federal 15% for first $200 then 29% after that
Ontario is based on income but always less than half of Fed.

NOBODY gets it 'all back' from the governement. Tax credits are in any circumstance less than 50% of donation.

[00cp]

Just wanted to share how much I LOVE that Chowhound deletes comments. I replied to the Butcher's thread telling someone "your best bet is to seek a refund and avoid going to the shop all together" and they deleted it. I mean, its just getting way too comical for me over there....

Thank heavens for the sanity of RFD, where people want to HELP each other. Not sure what Chowhound are up to, but they're definitely helping the Butchers out by deleting anything even mildly negative about their company. Makes you wonder

[gr8dlr]

Yes. They're pretty bad on Chowhound....censorship galore over there.

In response to "makes you wonder"....

Perhaps they were "bribed with meat". [NOT INTENDED TO BE A FACTUAL STATEMENT!].

[pakmode]

Just wanted to share how much I LOVE that Chowhound deletes comments. I replied to the Butcher's thread telling someone "your best bet is to seek a refund and avoid going to the shop all together" and they deleted it. I mean, its just getting way too comical for me over there....

Thank heavens for the sanity of RFD, where people want to HELP each other. Not sure what Chowhound are up to, but they're definitely helping the Butchers out by deleting anything even mildly negative about their company. Makes you wonder

Lol, you're not kidding.
I literally posted at 2:10 on that thread with a 2 sentence reply:
"They received money from the group deal sites to purchase meat and inventory.
It begs the question if they are buying meat or fridges and non-inventory items."

By 2:13 the post was removed.

[bigredflag]

Lol, you're not kidding.
I literally posted at 2:10 on that thread with a 2 sentence reply:
"They received money from the group deal sites to purchase meat and inventory.
It begs the question if they are buying meat or fridges and non-inventory items."

By 2:13 the post was removed.

There are a lot of links about the butchers - worth checking out:
http://oppugno.com/blog/?p=7

[kator]

Just wanted to share how much I LOVE that Chowhound deletes comments. I replied to the Butcher's thread telling someone "your best bet is to seek a refund and avoid going to the shop all together" and they deleted it. I mean, its just getting way too comical for me over there....

Thank heavens for the sanity of RFD, where people want to HELP each other. Not sure what Chowhound are up to, but they're definitely helping the Butchers out by deleting anything even mildly negative about their company. Makes you wonder

i was so annoyed with them and their random moderation rules that i asked them to delete my account. they just deactivated it. i asked them again to properly delete it, as per PIPEDA (ie canadian privacy law). they said they "can't" delete it all, so my username and comments are still there. i wrote back telling they're violating canadian privacy law by not deleting it all. never heard back.

funny how they are so awesome at deleting stuff from the boards, but not deleting my account.

[UnCeo]

i was so annoyed with them and their random moderation rules that i asked them to delete my account. they just deactivated it. i asked them again to properly delete it, as per PIPEDA (ie canadian privacy law). they said they "can't" delete it all, so my username and comments are still there. i wrote back telling they're violating canadian privacy law by not deleting it all. never heard back.

funny how they are so awesome at deleting stuff from the boards, but not deleting my account.
Not to get off topic, but how exactly does PIPEDA apply to the removal of your account & comments from a website like Chowhound?

[milhaus]

Not to get off topic, but how exactly does PIPEDA apply to the removal of your account & comments from a website like Chowhound?

It doesn't. Especially since Chowhoud doesn't operate here. But it does allow him/her to feign further offense.

BTW, guys, I've used three of these vouchers over the last few months, for a total of $375 of meat, without any problems whatsoever. It's been expensive, but the meat quality has been pretty high. Not saying you're wrong, but not everyone's had a bad experience, and with a deal this big, there are obviously going to be a few, vocal, pissed off people. I still have another voucher to use, so we'll see how that goes.

[MikeJefe]

Just wanted to share how much I LOVE that Chowhound deletes comments. I replied to the Butcher's thread telling someone "your best bet is to seek a refund and avoid going to the shop all together" and they deleted it. I mean, its just getting way too comical for me over there....

Thank heavens for the sanity of RFD, where people want to HELP each other. Not sure what Chowhound are up to, but they're definitely helping the Butchers out by deleting anything even mildly negative about their company. Makes you wonder

I agree. I've been exposing Chowhound's ridiculous moderator moves on Trueler's comments board ever since they got on this story. Butchers has an obvious shill named "Yongeman" who every so often sticks his nose in the Butchers discussion and tells some story about he went there, there was no lineup, the fridge was full of meat, Marlon gave him excellent service, he had no problem redeeming his entire coupon, and when he cooked it the meat was excellent quality. Either this happened in a dream or he's talking about some other store because nobody else can honestly say they have had such perfect experiences there (and Trueler proved the meat is anything but high quality). But if anybody calls him out on it or tries to say they had a negative experience, bam, moderators delete it right away.

It's almost as if Chowhound was either paid off, or has been threatened with lawsuit by the Butchers. The board is useless for reasonable discussions about The Butchers because of the behavior of the moderators. They let shills post but nobody can post about bad experiences, and they refuse to answer when asked why they do what they do. If anything they're only hurting their own reputation -- how can I trust Chowhound if they can simply play favorites and delete any negative posts against restaurants they like? They tried to put a pizza restaurant out of business in the same way.

[YLSF]

I disagree that Yongeman is a shill for The Butchers. He is a long time posted on CH and you don't usually see that for shills. It is possible that he is just a returning customer at The Butchers and is being treated differently than new customers.

Kator, you should follow up on your privacy complaints if you haven't already. If places like Facebook were made to comply with Canadian privacy rules then I don't see why CH shouldn't also.

[Dealbyer]

did you see the Groupon deal today for The Butcher's $20 for $500











I kid.

Mid-day humour.

[kator]

Not to get off topic, but how exactly does PIPEDA apply to the removal of your account & comments from a website like Chowhound?

PIPEDA basically means the data subject (ie you and me) owns whatever personal information we share. account details, such as username is personal information. since we own it (this is different from the us model where the company owns the data) we have the right for it to be removed upon request.

facebook got in trouble for this too - http://www.priv.gc.ca/cf-dc/2009/2009_008_0716_e.cfm

[kator]

I disagree that Yongeman is a shill for The Butchers. He is a long time posted on CH and you don't usually see that for shills. It is possible that he is just a returning customer at The Butchers and is being treated differently than new customers.

Kator, you should follow up on your privacy complaints if you haven't already. If places like Facebook were made to comply with Canadian privacy rules then I don't see why CH shouldn't also.

ahh, so much to do so little time:) i'll see how long the process is. but i really need to focus my energy on my thesis now (which, funnily enough, is on facebook privacy)

[MikeJefe]

I disagree that Yongeman is a shill for The Butchers. He is a long time posted on CH and you don't usually see that for shills. It is possible that he is just a returning customer at The Butchers and is being treated differently than new customers.


So the fridge magically restocks full of meat and the lineup magically disappears when he arrives and then as soon as he leaves the stock all disappears and 20 people with vouchers all show up at once? I don't think so.

[pakmode]

ahh, so much to do so little time:) i'll see how long the process is. but i really need to focus my energy on my thesis now (which, funnily enough, is on facebook privacy)

LOL - maybe it's time to become a 'rebel with a cause' Kate.
Could probably help your PhD defense.

[kator]

LOL - maybe it's time to become a 'rebel with a cause' Kate.
Could probably help your PhD defense.

ah, i would argue i already am a rebel with a few causes >:D
(but no seriously, thesis is due in a few months. then its back to my regular **** disturbing)

[pakmode]

So the fridge magically restocks full of meat and the lineup magically disappears when he arrives and then as soon as he leaves the stock all disappears and 20 people with vouchers all show up at once? I don't think so.

I gotta admit some of MikeJefe's comments make me laugh.
Some of the stuff he's written on Trueler is funny.

[pakmode]

ah, i would argue i already am a rebel with a few causes >:D
(but no seriously, thesis is due in a few months. then its back to my regular **** disturbing)

LOL, okay keep kicking butt and taking names.

[Bookpreviews]

Yes. They're pretty bad on Chowhound....censorship galore over there.

In response to "makes you wonder"....

Perhaps they were "bribed with meat". [NOT INTENDED TO BE A FACTUAL STATEMENT!].

LivingSocial has also deleted my comments on their Canadian Back centres posts today.

that is a different post I will add here later,

[TinyTank]

LivingSocial has also deleted my comments on their Canadian Back centres posts today.

that is a different post I will add here later,

Wait, livingsocial has a discussion board for their deals?

How do i access it?

[bigredflag]

Just wanted to share how much I LOVE that Chowhound deletes comments. I replied to the Butcher's thread telling someone "your best bet is to seek a refund and avoid going to the shop all together" and they deleted it. I mean, its just getting way too comical for me over there....

Thank heavens for the sanity of RFD, where people want to HELP each other. Not sure what Chowhound are up to, but they're definitely helping the Butchers out by deleting anything even mildly negative about their company. Makes you wonder

I've tried to be very polite & respectful over at Chowhound, but had to quit visiting there after seeing so many of my comments deleted for no reason.

BTW here is a list of links about The Butchers over at Oppugno:
http://oppugno.com/blog/2011/04/27/the-butchers-in-toronto/

[pakmode]

This made me laugh. Direct from The Butchers/Botchers website:


We are experiencing isses with our Yahoo email address. This is an issue with Yahoo and is not in our control to correct. Please be patient with us as we may experience a backlog in your delivery request as we wait for the service return.

[kator]

This made me laugh. Direct from The Butchers/Botchers website:


We are experiencing isses with our Yahoo email address. This is an issue with Yahoo and is not in our control to correct. Please be patient with us as we may experience a backlog in your delivery request as we wait for the service return.

yahoo's intertubes are clearly so full of all those emails everyone is sending, and you know when they get full it gets really slow! obviously!

[kator]

This made me laugh. Direct from The Butchers/Botchers website:


We are experiencing isses with our Yahoo email address. This is an issue with Yahoo and is not in our control to correct. Please be patient with us as we may experience a backlog in your delivery request as we wait for the service return.

They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the internet. And again, the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes!

[Bookpreviews]

Wait, livingsocial has a discussion board for their deals?

How do i access it?

And if you write a even somewhat "negative" email on their board, well it is a comment section for every daily deal...they will delete it.

I got a kind of nasty email saying my comment "was innapropriate and not the values of living social".

lame. super lame.

my comment was about their "Canadian back centres", their deal thursday refusing to treat me because I did not want to take their supplements and wanted to know what was in them.

really!

[MikeJefe]

I gotta admit some of MikeJefe's comments make me laugh.
Some of the stuff he's written on Trueler is funny.

You and BigRedFlag will probably like my Chowhound Coles Notes even better:

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/deep-dish-pizza-175681/3/#post8708375

Bit out of date as it was written almost 2 years ago but a lot of it still holds true! You can probably figure out who I'm poking fun at, even without naming names!

Maybe I need to update it for 2011....

[kator]

You and BigRedFlag will probably like my Chowhound Coles Notes even better:

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/deep-dish-pizza-175681/3/#post8708375

Bit out of date as it was written almost 2 years ago but a lot of it still holds true! You can probably figure out who I'm poking fun at, even without naming names!

Maybe I need to update it for 2011....

lol. that is so toronto. is the rest of CH like that too?

[MikeJefe]

lol. that is so toronto. is the rest of CH like that too?

I don't lurk in many of the other boards as I don't travel much. But I do read some of their general boards and yes there's a general air of snobbishness on there. So what I describe isn't unique to the Toronto board, it's across the whole site. They feel they're superior to the "great unwashed" - they think their opinions hold more weight than Yelp, Trip Advisor, mainstream newspapers or magazines, or the results in the Zagat Survey. Like I said, some of them have their noses so high in the air they're breathing ozone.

[canadiankorean]

But Chowhound didn't delete that main butcher bash thread.
I don't get how Chowhound is deleting threads when the main one itself isn't a good review.

[pakmode]

CH is CH. I enjoy and support both RFD and CH, and will continue to do so in the future.
If at any point, I feel like CH has jumped the shark, I'll move on to another forum.

Anyways, onto the Butcher-Botcher soap opera that's gripping the Nation lol.
Has anybody else noticed how sneakily they've changed their hours??

Their hours were 8AM-8PM to accomodate vouchers on Weekdays only.
That's 12 hours/day @ 5 days = 60 Total Operating Hours to redeem Vouchers.

Looking below at their new store hours:

STORE HOURS
Monday: CLOSED
Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1:30pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm


Monday they are closed completely (-12 hours).
They now open at 10AM instead of 8AM (-2 hours/day).
They close again for 2 hours from 11:30AM-1:30PM (-2 hours/day).
And the store closes earlier; down from 8pm to 6pm (-2 hours/day).

That means in total they are closed Monday (-12 hours) and shaved 6 hours/day from Tuesday to Friday (-24 hours).
They have reduced the Total Operating Hours to Redeem Vouchers from 60 down to 36. This is a 40% reduction and is absolutely preposterous.

Correct my math if I'm wrong, but Voucher holders now have only 36 hours during the weekdays to redeem these certificates!

Of course this doesn't even include the fact that older Voucher holders were legally eligible to redeem on the Weekends, but the Botchers arbitrarily changed the contract terms.

[angekfire]

Yes, everyone noticed their hours have changed. The schedule was posted in this thread already.

[pakmode]

Yes, everyone noticed their hours have changed. The schedule was posted in this thread already.

Thanks Ottawa - guess I didn't notice that they were reduced (yet again) and now 40% less weekday operating hours then their previously reduction of 20% when they arbitrarily took away voucher redemption on weekends.

A co-worker found out today that they no longer opened at 8AM when he went there.

[00cp]

CH is CH. I enjoy and support both RFD and CH, and will continue to do so in the future.
If at any point, I feel like CH has jumped the shark, I'll move on to another forum.

Anyways, onto the Butcher-Botcher soap opera that's gripping the Nation lol.
Has anybody else noticed how sneakily they've changed their hours??

Their hours were 8AM-8PM to accomodate vouchers on Weekdays only.
That's 12 hours/day @ 5 days = 60 Total Operating Hours to redeem Vouchers.

Looking below at their new store hours:

STORE HOURS
Monday: CLOSED
Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1:30pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm


Monday they are closed completely (-12 hours).
They now open at 10AM instead of 8AM (-2 hours/day).
They close again for 2 hours from 11:30AM-1:30PM (-2 hours/day).
And the store closes earlier; down from 8pm to 6pm (-2 hours/day).

That means in total they are closed Monday (-12 hours) and shaved 6 hours/day from Tuesday to Friday (-24 hours).
They have reduced the Total Operating Hours to Redeem Vouchers from 60 down to 36. This is a 40% reduction and is absolutely preposterous.

Correct my math if I'm wrong, but Voucher holders now have only 36 hours during the weekdays to redeem these certificates!

Of course this doesn't even include the fact that older Voucher holders were legally eligible to redeem on the Weekends, but the Botchers arbitrarily changed the contract terms.


Not that I'm endorsing it in any way, but I'm honestly shocked no one has put a brick through Marlon's window yet. Such a dirty, dirty scam artist.

[pakmode]

Not that I'm endorsing it in any way, but I'm honestly shocked no one has put a brick through Marlon's window yet. Such a dirty, dirty scam artist.

He's essentially made it impossible for anybody to go BEFORE or AFTER work or during their lunch hour.

10-6 with a 2 hour lunch is unreal.

A couple co-workers finally emailed in today to ask for refunds. I'm surprised it took them this long and they got the hint that Marlon only wanted their money, not their business.

[ayeung]

I went to the Butchers today and with a $100 voucher, I was only able to get 2.5 pieces of beef steaks ($12.99/lb), 0.5 pound leftover of "not so lean ground beef" ($6.99/lb), 4 pieces of sausages ($10.99/lb), and some overpriced "naturally raised" chicken breasts ($10.99/lb). I can easily get "naturally raised" chicken (antibiotic free, hormone free, free range, vegetable grain fed etc) at my local grocery store at a cheaper price.

There were lots of chicken breasts, very little beef, 2 kinds of sausages and that was it. They now also imposed a rule of only 3 steaks purchase per visit which was ridiculous as I have a family of 4. It was very difficult to redeem the $100 voucher because there was no meat to buy.

I think I should see if I can get a refund for the other voucher I have.

[kator]

I went to the Butchers today and with a $100 voucher, I was only able to get 2.5 pieces of beef steaks ($12.99/lb), 0.5 pound leftover of "not so lean ground beef" ($6.99/lb), 4 pieces of sausages ($10.99/lb), and some overpriced "naturally raised" chicken breasts ($10.99/lb). I can easily get "naturally raised" chicken (antibiotic free, hormone free, free range, vegetable grain fed etc) at my local grocery store at a cheaper price.

There were lots of chicken breasts, very little beef, 2 kinds of sausages and that was it. They now also imposed a rule of only 3 steaks purchase per visit which was ridiculous as I have a family of 4. It was very difficult to redeem the $100 voucher because there was no meat to buy.

I think I should see if I can get a refund for the other voucher I have.

this is getting comical

[usdm_b18]

I'm surprised that these guys haven't been fined yet; actually, this situation seems markedly worse then the Forzani guys;

"TORONTO (CP) — Sporting goods retailer
Forzani Group has agreed to pay $1.7
million after an investigation by the federal
Competition Bureau suggested consumers
were misled about sale prices at the company’s
Sport Chek and Sport Mart stores.
“They were being duped into believing
they were getting a bargain when the
goods were so-called ‘on sale,’ but they
actually weren’t on sale,” Andrea Rosen,
assistant deputy commissioner of competition,
said Tuesday.
“These ads were luring consumers
away from other retailers who were competing
against Forzani and were using legitimate
marketing techniques.”"

<...>

“In the case of Sport Chek, they were
suggesting their prices had been discounted
by a certain percentage when
compared to their own regular prices,
and that wasn’t the case,” Rosen said."

http://www.saskcan.com/pdfs/LP-Jul-07-04.pdf

[Rehan]

^^ Similar to above:

http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/00197.html

"Landmark Competition Act ruling against Sears Canada
Sears Misrepresented Extent of Savings in Tire Advertisements Distributed to Millions of Canadians

OTTAWA, January 24, 2005 — Canadian consumers will benefit from today's Competition Tribunal ruling which found that Sears Canada Inc. violated the Competition Act by exaggerating the possible savings to consumers across Canada when it advertised tires on sale. The Competition Bureau is confident that this landmark decision sends a loud signal to the business community that bogus bargain price claims mislead consumers and harm retailers who comply with the law.

Sears admitted that it sold less than two per cent of the tires at the full regular price before they were advertised on sale. The Tribunal found that Sears could not have truly believed that its regular tire prices were genuine and bona fide prices that the market would validate.

The Competition Act contains provisions aimed at protecting consumers from being misled by reference to "inflated" regular prices when products are promoted at sale prices. The decision came after a lengthy hearing before the Tribunal, which was initiated by the Competition Bureau in 2002.

This landmark decision is the first to be handed down by the Tribunal under the ordinary selling price provisions of the Competition Act. In its ruling, the Tribunal found that Sears had not sold a substantial volume of the tires at the regular prices featured in the advertisements, and had not offered the tires in good faith at those prices.

"This decision represents an important milestone in the Competition Bureau's efforts to ensure that consumers get honest and accurate pricing information from retailers," said Sheridan Scott, Commissioner of Competition. "Canadian consumers should expect nothing less than truth in advertising, when deciding where to spend their hard earned money."

In addition, the Tribunal upheld the constitutionality of the relevant provision of the Competition Act under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In upholding the provision, the Tribunal accepted that false or misleading ordinary selling price claims can harm consumers, business competitors and competition in general.

The Competition Bureau is an independent law enforcement agency. We contribute to the prosperity of Canadians by protecting and promoting competitive markets and enabling informed consumer choice.

To review the Competition Tribunal's decision, please visit their Web site at www.ct-tc.gc.ca"

[gr8dlr]

I went to the Butchers today and with a $100 voucher, I was only able to get 2.5 pieces of beef steaks ($12.99/lb), 0.5 pound leftover of "not so lean ground beef" ($6.99/lb), 4 pieces of sausages ($10.99/lb), and some overpriced "naturally raised" chicken breasts ($10.99/lb). I can easily get "naturally raised" chicken (antibiotic free, hormone free, free range, vegetable grain fed etc) at my local grocery store at a cheaper price.

There were lots of chicken breasts, very little beef, 2 kinds of sausages and that was it. They now also imposed a rule of only 3 steaks purchase per visit which was ridiculous as I have a family of 4. It was very difficult to redeem the $100 voucher because there was no meat to buy.

I think I should see if I can get a refund for the other voucher I have.

Their margins seem to be much higher on chicken than they are on beef/lamb. The one time I've been there, the counter had a ton of chicken and not much prime cuts of beef...more of the lesser cuts like brisket, ground beef, not prime cuts like rib steaks/prime rib. By not stocking much they're forcing you to buy where they make more thus making the discount a lot less.

[MikeJefe]

I'm surprised that these guys haven't been fined yet; actually, this situation seems markedly worse then the Forzani guys;

http://www.saskcan.com/pdfs/LP-Jul-07-04.pdf

Thanks for this. Since there's clearly a precedent to fine these guys, the Competition Bureau should be all over them as well as Webpiggy and any other deal site that was in on the scam. Of course I suspect The Butchers (and Webpiggy et al) will simply close up shop and file for bankruptcy if/when a fine were imposed.... if not before.

[MikeJefe]

Not that I'm endorsing it in any way, but I'm honestly shocked no one has put a brick through Marlon's window yet. Such a dirty, dirty scam artist.

Maybe it's time for an angry mob to show up at his house and his store at 5 in the morning on a weekday and set up a picket line (so he can't get out of his house without facing us, and none of his employees can get in to work) and keep chanting "Where's the beef? Where's the beef?" Carry signs with "SHAME!", "SCAM!", and "THIEF!"

This would HAVE to attract mainstream media attention on every local TV newscast, which would have to actually expose what they've been up to, like what happens during most strikes that have loud picketers. Breakfast Television (both the CITY and CP24 versions) would be all over this if you stage it during the morning when they're on the air.

No need for violence. But since he isn't listening to the angry mob online maybe the angry mob needs to get on TV. Throwing a brick wall through his window, spraypainting his storefront, etc, will merely turn public opinion in his favour, "oh, poor independent little butcher attacked by vandals". A loud but nonviolent protest that gets mainstream media attention to his scam would finish him off once and for all.

[Bookpreviews]

I went to the Butchers today and with a $100 voucher, I was only able to get 2.5 pieces of beef steaks ($12.99/lb), 0.5 pound leftover of "not so lean ground beef" ($6.99/lb), 4 pieces of sausages ($10.99/lb), and some overpriced "naturally raised" chicken breasts ($10.99/lb). I can easily get "naturally raised" chicken (antibiotic free, hormone free, free range, vegetable grain fed etc) at my local grocery store at a cheaper price.

There were lots of chicken breasts, very little beef, 2 kinds of sausages and that was it. They now also imposed a rule of only 3 steaks purchase per visit which was ridiculous as I have a family of 4. It was very difficult to redeem the $100 voucher because there was no meat to buy.

I think I should see if I can get a refund for the other voucher I have.

I was told that all chicken raised in Canada had to be antibiotic free and grain fed at least.
That by law chickens have to be fed grains.

I know some farmers they let their chickens eat grass and weeds too,but not too many farmers do that.

[Rehan]

I was told that all chicken raised in Canada had to be antibiotic free and grain fed at least.
That by law chickens have to be fed grains. Not quite. The majority (almost 90%) of their feed is grains (wheat or corn, etc.) but they are also fed proteins, antibiotics, and other things.
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2011/superbugsinthesupermarket/
http://chicken.ca/antibiotics

[usdm_b18]

Maybe it's time for an angry mob to show up at his house and his store at 5 in the morning on a weekday and set up a picket line (so he can't get out of his house without facing us, and none of his employees can get in to work) and keep chanting "Where's the beef? Where's the beef?" Carry signs with "SHAME!", "SCAM!", and "THIEF!"

This would HAVE to attract mainstream media attention on every local TV newscast, which would have to actually expose what they've been up to, like what happens during most strikes that have loud picketers. Breakfast Television (both the CITY and CP24 versions) would be all over this if you stage it during the morning when they're on the air.

No need for violence. But since he isn't listening to the angry mob online maybe the angry mob needs to get on TV. Throwing a brick wall through his window, spraypainting his storefront, etc, will merely turn public opinion in his favour, "oh, poor independent little butcher attacked by vandals". A loud but nonviolent protest that gets mainstream media attention to his scam would finish him off once and for all.



I think the solution here if you are upset about getting scammed is to go to the competition bureau.

Here's the link:

http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-eng/GH%C3%89T-7TDNA5

I figure that given the number of respondents to the thread, if people take the 5 1/2 minutes to fill in the form it should pop up on the comp bureau's radar.

I know the comp bureau has a mandate to respond if there is a certain number of complaints, I don't recall what the number is, however it isn't very many (+/-20).

[kingkelly]

Its getting pretty much impossible to redeem the coupons. Walking in and picking up some meat is out of the question unless you want some pieces of bacon stuck in the corner.

SO i thought i would play their game and just place my orders online.

First order placed, I show up and they dont have it. This is 2 weeks after I placed it and got a confirmation. THey tell me to come back the next day, and they still dont have it. Each day they forget who i am of course. I have to leave work early just to get their by 6pm. Continuously...

Second order placed on April 4, scheduled to pick up on April 27. They confirm, I come on APril 27, they dont have it. THey dont have anything I wanted. Come back tomorrow, so sorry. I come back tomorrow, still nothing... I call them before coming and they have no idea who i am. I tell them they wrote a huge note ont heir fridge so they wouldnt forget and they still did. MY 4 lbs of chicken wings of 2 lbs of sausages, which should have come to aroudn 55$ came to about 90$... Chicken wing prices jumped form 5.99 to 8.99....

Not buying that this is all mistakes, or their hours are changing due to 'health concerns'. Their site says theyre closed from 11:30-12:30, but also says until 1:30. The confusion all seems deliberate.

[00cp]

Pretty obvious by now that this is another one of their post-coupon sale attempts to curb purchases.

[iloveadeal]

I bought several of these vouchers and it seems like its going to be impossible to redeem them (with the changing hours it makes it impossible to get there and from others posted experiences, they likely wouldn't hvae my order anyways!). I agree with previous post, we should all file a complaint with the competition bureau...power in numbers!

[drwilly13]

My buddy has tried to redeem his coupon for the past two days. Yesterday they told him that they only accepted coupons from Tuesday - Thursday. So he returned today and they said that they were closed because of electrical problems. Will this be their last week? Can't be much longer before those doors are shut for good.

[shopzors]

yahoo's intertubes are clearly so full of all those emails everyone is sending, and you know when they get full it gets really slow! obviously!

I have no love for what looks like a scam (I personally have never ordered any voucher for them), but I went to Yahoo that day because like you, I thought this was too much and hey! Yahoo actually was having e-mail problems.

Not that this makes me want to shop for meat with The Butchers.

[lemmings]

For what its worth, I did manage to get a cheque from dealgetters for my 3 vouchers.

Hasn't bounced yet.

[quick_gsr]

I purchased a voucher as well, I have not attempted to go and redeem yet. I heard good things from a friend who purchased months ago. After reading all the latest issues people are having, it's making me wonder if I should contact the credit card company to refund the money.(if buytopia does not refund)

Has anyone had a good experience recently???????

[pakmode]

I think the solution here if you are upset about getting scammed is to go to the competition bureau.

Here's the link:

http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-eng/GH%C3%89T-7TDNA5

I figure that given the number of respondents to the thread, if people take the 5 1/2 minutes to fill in the form it should pop up on the comp bureau's radar.

I know the comp bureau has a mandate to respond if there is a certain number of complaints, I don't recall what the number is, however it isn't very many (+/-20).

Good initiative.

Going forward if you, or somebody you know, files a complaint. Just post a reply.

I never purchased a voucher so I can't file a complaint.
But upon further encouragement 2 of my co-workers filed a complaint this morning.

[Bookpreviews]

Not quite. The majority (almost 90%) of their feed is grains (wheat or corn, etc.) but they are also fed proteins, antibiotics, and other things.
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2011/superbugsinthesupermarket/
http://chicken.ca/antibiotics

Interesting,

Well I am just buying chicken from 2 small farmers.
One they have on their website and packaging that it is just grain fed and nothing else and that they let their chickens stay alive for up to 4 months so they are very big.
Those chickens are very expensive too-like $20-25 per chicken...but are up to 10lbs!

Another lady I know or spoke to that has a far she told me the chickens only eat what is outside and some grain that is grown on the farm-her chicken and eggs are organic also.

Just watched the whole Marketplace show on chickens...I am never buying chicken at the grocery store again...just fish and seafood.
Going to stick with the local farmer co-op for meats.

Right now I am getting chicken and turkey from this farm local to me in Quebec:

http://www.saveursdesmonts.ca/index.htm

[quick_gsr]

I will actually go to the store tomorrow afternoon(first time) and hopefully no issues.

If I have issues, I will file a compliant.

[mabman]

My Poor Cow

http://www.thebutchers.info/

[Siefer999]

My Poor Cow

http://www.thebutchers.info/

The butchers stole some guys Cow to sell to these coupon users!!!

[quick_gsr]

this story is just getting strange

i report my results tomorrow

[ayeung]

For what its worth, I did manage to get a cheque from dealgetters for my 3 vouchers.

Hasn't bounced yet.

Lucky you, Dealgetters is not refunding my money. They said they can give me Dealgetters credit to spend on Dealgetters, which is not useful for me

[JBlue]

I wonder if this cow was raised organic but I remember reading a reply on Trueler about Marlon not working with 'organic' suppliers anymore because he scams/delays/not pay or what have you to money owed. Not surprising on that note for a small business but this is odd but possible for a small shop I guess.. I dunno.

[00cp]

How scary is THAT story??? So now we don't even know the source of the meat!

If I grow some chickens in a coup in my yard downtown, will you be roasting them up next week after buying them from Marlon thinking they are farm fresh and naturally raised?

[Thedbs]

Lucky you, Dealgetters is not refunding my money. They said they can give me Dealgetters credit to spend on Dealgetters, which is not useful for me

Lucky you, they won't even respond to me.

[kator]

I wonder if this cow was raised organic but I remember reading a reply on Trueler about Marlon not working with 'organic' suppliers anymore because he scams/delays/not pay or what have you to money owed. Not surprising on that note for a small business but this is odd but possible for a small shop I guess.. I dunno.

yes, his old supplier (who used to be listed on his site when it was up) blue haven farms told me he used those tactics with them when i called them. marcia stevers there said he was not a straight shooter.

[shopzors]

My Poor Cow

http://www.thebutchers.info/

If this is true, this is going from a trainwreck to a trainwreck with fireworks and evil clowns.

[PennyArcade]

I personally think this thread should be stickied on RFD for both consumers and retailers. Of course with the appropriate thread title. There is more than enough evidence from many different RFD'ers and others that this business is a scam.

[quick_gsr]

I couldn't go in yesterday as planned.

but I called this morning to ensure they had stock for my trip out today.

the person was pleasant on the phone, but, not good news. no meat, as they are closed today(thursday May 5) for electrical work to the store. I believe they have done this before.

>:(

[canadiankorean]

I couldn't go in yesterday as planned.

but I called this morning to ensure they had stock for my trip out today.

the person was pleasant on the phone, but, not good news. no meat, as they are closed today(thursday May 5) for electrical work to the store. I believe they have done this before.

>:(

It's like they have electrical work every other day.
At least use another excuse.
Fire in the basement
Funeral in another country
Vandalism

[00cp]

You can see how passionate Marlon is about giving "...(a) portion of the proceeds from these remaining voucher deals" to "support the Cancer Society in honour of Marlon's father" since he is blatantly refusing to sell product to anyone with a coupon by making up a variety of reasons to keep the store closed during the hours where they actually accept the coupons

Stay classy Marlon, stay classy...

[quick_gsr]

So has anyone actually redeemed their vouchers and had a good experience?

I may start investigating getting a refund. Just don't want to jump the gun here.

[angekfire]

If you had asked for a refund 2 months ago, that is jumping the gun. At this point, he has shown enough shady business practice to make it fairly obvious this was intended as a scam.

[kingkelly]

I think its safe to say that the only way they can make money off all the vouchers is to hope that they dont get used by the end of the year. By shortening the hours, not preparing orders, and closing on random days, theyre doign a pretty good job of not actually accepting coupons.

This of course is illegal, and all these coupons should have been refunded once they started changing hours and rules of coupon use.

What now?

[pakmode]

I think its safe to say that the only way they can make money off all the vouchers is to hope that they dont get used by the end of the year. By shortening the hours, not preparing orders, and closing on random days, theyre doign a pretty good job of not actually accepting coupons.

This of course is illegal, and all these coupons should have been refunded once they started changing hours and rules of coupon use.

What now?

Just sit and wait and watch the show.
If you have money invested in this house of cards - pull out.
Grab some popcorn, maybe some ice cream, and just sit back and watch everything unfold.
If you still have money in here - get out before it's late.
It's just a matter of time before the Butcher's incompetence floods online forums with tales of financial loss and "would've, should've, could've".

[jungaree]

anyone know webpiggy's refund policy regarding this deal?

thanks in advance.

[kator]

anyone know webpiggy's refund policy regarding this deal?

thanks in advance.

they gave me a refund, no problem. gave another guy a hard time until he posted here and then people sent webpiggy the link, THEN he got a refund.

so, your mileage may vary. but public shaming seems to work

[setell]

they gave me a refund, no problem. gave another guy a hard time until he posted here and then people sent webpiggy the link, THEN he got a refund.

so, your mileage may vary. but public shaming seems to work

It might be just me but I blacklist any company that don't treat me well aka do a refund when they should. Then offer me a refund after I go online to write up a nasty review so they can save themselves? It shows that they do not care about you period. I take my business elsewhere and never look back no matter how cheap they may be.

[kator]

It might be just me but I blacklist any company that don't treat me well aka do a refund when they should. Then offer me a refund after I go online to write up a nasty review so they can save themselves? It shows that they do not care about you period. I take my business elsewhere and never look back no matter how cheap they may be.

yup, i totally agree with that. i teach a class on social media and that's what i tell my students. businesses worry about getting online for fear of trolls or negative comments, but if you were an ethical business before social media and treat customers well because its the right thing to do rather than because you might get publicly shamed, you'll do fine online.

[jbsilly]

Received a voucher as a gift. Had a bad feeling as soon as I was given the voucher and its only gotten worse. Obviously all of the negative online feedback is one clue but today the negative feedback was substantiated. Went in today expecting them to be open as they should be, not so, they are closed due to electrical repairs and have the wrong date posted on their website (April 5, 2011). This kind of disregard for details leaves me rather worried about the detail they pay to the meat they sell.

[EL820]

So has anyone actually redeemed their vouchers and had a good experience?

I may start investigating getting a refund. Just don't want to jump the gun here.


You're are kidding right? If you haven't done so, GET YOUR REFUND!!!

I got my refund from Dealfind. To be extra cautious, I called my cc company to confirmed the credit. :D

[kator]

So has anyone actually redeemed their vouchers and had a good experience?

I may start investigating getting a refund. Just don't want to jump the gun here.

even if you do manage to be at the store when its actually open, or manage to get them to delivery your stuff months after you place the order, you are still getting meat of questionable quality. the meat i got had dirt and human hair on it (http://twitpic.com/4fq88y). someone else on yelp said they found glass in their ground beef. and, as truler and i discovered, their 'naturally' raised meat is still factory farmed and corn fed (which is really not much better than conventional) yet you are paying the price for certified organic.

even with the discount, it's not much cheaper than getting naturally raised from your supermarket. at least you know when they're open and they won't verbally abuse you.

[drwilly13]

That it twice in one week that they have had electrical problems. My buddy told them they now also the amount of steak you can buy at a time (2 steaks). How has this guy not been arrested/such down? This is a blatant scam and he is operating right out in the open on Yonge Street.

[Rehan]

even if you do manage to be at the store when its actually open, or manage to get them to delivery your stuff months after you place the order, you are still getting meat of questionable quality. the meat i got had dirt and human hair on it (http://twitpic.com/4fq88y). someone else on yelp said they found glass in their ground beef. and, as truler and i discovered, their 'naturally' raised meat is still factory farmed and corn fed (which is really not much better than conventional) yet you are paying the price for certified organic. I think he's hoping that if it's repeated enough times, you'll start to believe it -- http://www.marlonsmeat.com/faqs (click each 'question' to shows its answer) :lol:

(I know the site's "under construction". I just thought it was a funny page in the context of the questionable status of the meat. :) )

[angekfire]

even if you do manage to be at the store when its actually open, or manage to get them to delivery your stuff months after you place the order, you are still getting meat of questionable quality. the meat i got had dirt and human hair on it (http://twitpic.com/4fq88y). someone else on yelp said they found glass in their ground beef. and, as truler and i discovered, their 'naturally' raised meat is still factory farmed and corn fed (which is really not much better than conventional) yet you are paying the price for certified organic.

even with the discount, it's not much cheaper than getting naturally raised from your supermarket. at least you know when they're open and they won't verbally abuse you.

Question, unrelated to the butchers specifically: Does anyone know how to go about reporting a business for claiming to sell organic when they are not? That should obviously fall under false advertising, but where can it be reported to they get investigated?

[buddhababy]

Question, unrelated to the butchers specifically: Does anyone know how to go about reporting a business for claiming to sell organic when they are not? That should obviously fall under false advertising, but where can it be reported to they get investigated?

See post #437 (http://forums.redflagdeals.com/merged-butchers-organic-meat-feedback-discussion-999078/30/#post12820315)

[Aritzia]

I got 3 pieces of steaks and some other stuff from delivery last night. The meat were very fresh but who knows if they are organics or not...

[00cp]

I got 3 pieces of steaks and some other stuff from delivery last night. The meat were very fresh but who knows if they are organics or not...

How long did it take you from the date/time of placing the order to receive your goods?

[Beachdown]

Question, unrelated to the butchers specifically: Does anyone know how to go about reporting a business for claiming to sell organic when they are not? That should obviously fall under false advertising, but where can it be reported to they get investigated?

I believe in this case OMAFRA has authority.

[shopzors]

It's like they have electrical work every other day.
At least use another excuse.
Fire in the basement
Funeral in another country
Vandalism

Alien abduction
Cows forming a union
Catering Stephen Harper victory private party

[igbonla]

Got my refund from TeamSave..feel so happy, never the type to fall for cheap tricks..bought 6 vouchers in February, used 2 in March..good experience although not enough stuffs during second visit...visited the 3rd time and that was when the madness started; varied hours, electrical problems, etc..tried online ordering but it was worse, very terrible customer service (Eric).

With money going down the drains for gas and parking tickets..had no choice than to pull the trigger to cut my losses..thanks TeamSave for the no question asked refund.

[CSK'sMom]

Question, unrelated to the butchers specifically: Does anyone know how to go about reporting a business for claiming to sell organic when they are not? That should obviously fall under false advertising, but where can it be reported to they get investigated?

The thing is, there are no actual regulations surrounding "organic" in Canada. There are a bunch of voluntary organizations that are just that, voluntary. No real regulations or any enforcement. Essentially its a marketing term in Canada that means very little so it's buyer beware.... The only organic label I would ever consider relying on is the US ones. There is true regulation and stiff penalties for breaking them....

[kator]

The thing is, there are no actual regulations surrounding "organic" in Canada. There are a bunch of voluntary organizations that are just that, voluntary. No real regulations or any enforcement. Essentially its a marketing term in Canada that means very little so it's buyer beware.... The only organic label I would ever consider relying on is the US ones. There is true regulation and stiff penalties for breaking them....

http://www.cog.ca/ not even those guys? i guess they're growers association rather than government...

or how about http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/orgbio/orgbioe.shtml - it appears there are some regulations in place... they might be the ones to complain to as well?

[CSK'sMom]

http://www.cog.ca/ not even those guys? i guess they're growers association rather than government...

Exactly kator and the result is nothing more than a marketing term that anyone can use but no one is really checking. Hubby is in the wholesale produce biz and specifically tells folks not to pay more for the organic label unless it's from the US due to the way it's used here in Canada. We also raised beef cattle (along with chickens, turkey, geese and pheasants) for almost a decade. If you're looking for more naturally raised meats, source out a local farm and ask questions. ;)

The 09 gov't act is till in it's infancy kator and far from what it should be. It was a case of playing catch up after being left far behind in this field by other countries. It really only came to be because of the EU threat to stop allowing imports of "organics", so it was more politics than policy. ;)

[Beachdown]

http://www.cog.ca/ not even those guys? i guess they're growers association rather than government...

or how about http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/orgbio/orgbioe.shtml - it appears there are some regulations in place... they might be the ones to complain to as well?

The CFIA only regulates imports/exports and interprovincial trade. The province would regulate Ontario sales with claims of organic.

[quick_gsr]

TEAM RFD.

I have GOOD NEWS to report.

before attempting a refund, I said to myself I have to at least go in person once nd check out the situation. Small percentage of people online posting negative reviews, in comparsion to how many vouchers "the Butchers" sold, made me think he must be doing something right(hopefully).

I'm happy to report my first trip went well, and Marlon was extremely busy, and at the same time, VERY nice to all his customers. He was trying to make everyone happy.

I personally purchased $236 worth of meat(my cost $60). (just over half my $400 "value" voucher)
8 chicken breasts bone in
4 chicken quarters
2 pieces of beef tenderloin
9 sirloin steaks
8 sirloin burgers
1 lb of ground beef

I bbq'd tonight, and it was VERY good. the burgers were unbelievable. Sorry did not take any pictures, maybe next bbq I will.

I don't know if I could afford to shop there without the vouchers, but as others mentioned, I would go back and purchase meat at regular price for special occasions.

BTW, I went in at approx 2pm Friday afternoon, and meat stock was disappearing and people were lined up out the door.

I'm not saying others have not had issues, but from what I saw, odds are you are not going to walk in there and get everything on your shopping list. let's be realistic, he's a small butcher shop that probably never had volume like this before. Marlon was pulling out hanging cow and chopping up steaks constantly.

Yes, I agree with others that posted here that the hours are tough for voucher holders, the meat selection is a crap shoot, and the service can be questionable depending on the situation(rude ***** customer=50/50 service). I can see why this would be. Today the staff were all great, which I'm shocked as some of the customers around me were soooo rude. If I was working behind that counter, super busy, non stop pace, a rude customer would make me snap. One lady is like I want 25 rib eye steaks, and Marlon was like I don't have that much availabe, let's just say she was not pleasent.

Sorry for the long post, I just felt that a lot of people have vouchers and are nervous about their purchase.

Overall thumbs UP.

[DTOM]

Thanks for the report. How long did it take for you to get served?

[quick_gsr]

took me about 5-10 mins(closer to 10mins) to wait in line and get served. and approx 10-15 mins to bag and cut my steaks and cash out.

the line was longer when I finished. so hard to judge or make an estimate on what someone might experience.

[jerrysiz]

I've also had a generally positive experience. After stopping in a couple of times on weekends (before they added the no-weekends stipulation, which is most certainly crap) and finding only a few things left, I went a couple of weeks ago on a Tuesday morning. I called first to make sure they would be open, and when I arrived I was happy to find a wide variety that looked very fresh. I bought a little of everything (burgers, sausages, steaks, stew beef, marinated chicken breasts, duck legs, pork chops). There were about 4 or 5 other people in the store when I was there and the counter staff were very patient and helpful (though when the girl who was serving me went back to ask one of the butchers a question he seemed quite surly and short with her, poor counter staff). I had paid for an hour on the parking meter just in case, but I was in and out in 15 minutes.

I put most of the meat in the freezer, but so far have tried the duck legs, tandoori chicken breasts, breakfast sausages, and teriyaki pork chop. IMO all have been excellent, good flavour and very tender. I have no idea if they are organic, but that's not really a concern for me. They were delicious and while the sticker price was outrageous, the actual cost to me was actually quite reasonable.

Having said this, I know that the execution of this deal has been atrocious. Both my mother and aunt have had orders repeatedly not arrive, and when they finally did were missing items with no warning. As I said above, I have also tried to go get meat myself and found the store ridiculously busy and the selection terrible. I also tend to agree with those who speculate that they are messing around with their store hours and trying to randomly change the terms of their coupons to discourage people from redeeming. While the owner's business practices are atrocious, I have no complaints about the quality of the product or the front line staff (though I'm not saying others have not had problems).

Overall, I have to say if you can physically go to the store soon after they open in the morning (call first to avoid "closed for filming/electrical work/etc." shenanigans), you will likely be able to pick up a variety of good quality meats. If this is not an option, you may want to consider trying for a refund. So basically: Nice meat if you can get it.

[massonspy]

Ive neVer trusted these group deals. It will come to an end because people will buy once and see what kind of deals they are buying. All these deal websites charge 50% of the total purchase in case you didnt know. There is no profit left for the businesses.

[canadiankorean]

TEAM RFD.

I have GOOD NEWS to report.

before attempting a refund, I said to myself I have to at least go in person once nd check out the situation. Small percentage of people online posting negative reviews, in comparsion to how many vouchers "the Butchers" sold, made me think he must be doing something right(hopefully).

I'm happy to report my first trip went well, and Marlon was extremely busy, and at the same time, VERY nice to all his customers. He was trying to make everyone happy.

I personally purchased $236 worth of meat(my cost $60). (just over half my $400 "value" voucher)
8 chicken breasts bone in
4 chicken quarters
2 pieces of beef tenderloin
9 sirloin steaks
8 sirloin burgers
1 lb of ground beef

I bbq'd tonight, and it was VERY good. the burgers were unbelievable. Sorry did not take any pictures, maybe next bbq I will.

I don't know if I could afford to shop there without the vouchers, but as others mentioned, I would go back and purchase meat at regular price for special occasions.

BTW, I went in at approx 2pm Friday afternoon, and meat stock was disappearing and people were lined up out the door.

I'm not saying others have not had issues, but from what I saw, odds are you are not going to walk in there and get everything on your shopping list. let's be realistic, he's a small butcher shop that probably never had volume like this before. Marlon was pulling out hanging cow and chopping up steaks constantly.

Yes, I agree with others that posted here that the hours are tough for voucher holders, the meat selection is a crap shoot, and the service can be questionable depending on the situation(rude ***** customer=50/50 service). I can see why this would be. Today the staff were all great, which I'm shocked as some of the customers around me were soooo rude. If I was working behind that counter, super busy, non stop pace, a rude customer would make me snap. One lady is like I want 25 rib eye steaks, and Marlon was like I don't have that much availabe, let's just say she was not pleasent.

Sorry for the long post, I just felt that a lot of people have vouchers and are nervous about their purchase.

Overall thumbs UP.

Nice update.
Any other positive reports?

[Jdog75]

Sounds too good to be true.

Based on your order that makes no sense. I purchased 3 steaks totalling $106. 9 steaks plus your other items ordered would not add up to $236.

Do you have the receipt to prove it? Please take a picture and post it.

I realize that you have been a member a long time, but that does not preclude you from being paid off by The Butchers.

Looking forward to them shutting down and going out of business.

They have ruined on-line coupon buying.

[Bookpreviews]

Exactly kator and the result is nothing more than a marketing term that anyone can use but no one is really checking. Hubby is in the wholesale produce biz and specifically tells folks not to pay more for the organic label unless it's from the US due to the way it's used here in Canada. We also raised beef cattle (along with chickens, turkey, geese and pheasants) for almost a decade. If you're looking for more naturally raised meats, source out a local farm and ask questions. ;)

The 09 gov't act is till in it's infancy kator and far from what it should be. It was a case of playing catch up after being left far behind in this field by other countries. It really only came to be because of the EU threat to stop allowing imports of "organics", so it was more politics than policy. ;)

Are you saying to actually go visit a farm or just buy directly from the local famers?
I know I don't have a car and have no way of getting to visit a farm an hour from me.

But I have met and spoken to the farmers I buy from and can email any questions to them.
I buy most of my meats from a farmer co-op that is in Quebec near me, you order online and pick up your items a few days later...

[CSK'sMom]

Are you saying to actually go visit a farm or just buy directly from the local famers?
I know I don't have a car and have no way of getting to visit a farm an hour from me.

But I have met and spoken to the farmers I buy from and can email any questions to them.
I buy most of my meats from a farmer co-op that is in Quebec near me, you order online and pick up your items a few days later...

Buy from as local of a farmer as you can. If what you're doing works for you great. We have a farmer co-op here in Niagara too and they are great. You know what farm you're getting products from, etc but the co-op makes ordering and pick-up or delivery easy. Your's sounds similar to ours. :) Folks really need to be aware that these "organic" and "natural" perishable stores need to have questions asked of them. Don't like the answers or can't verify answers, let the wallet do the talking. ;)

[values99club]

TEAM RFD.

I have GOOD NEWS to report.

before attempting a refund, I said to myself I have to at least go in person once nd check out the situation. Small percentage of people online posting negative reviews, in comparsion to how many vouchers "the Butchers" sold, made me think he must be doing something right(hopefully).

I'm happy to report my first trip went well, and Marlon was extremely busy, and at the same time, VERY nice to all his customers. He was trying to make everyone happy.

I personally purchased $236 worth of meat(my cost $60). (just over half my $400 "value" voucher)
8 chicken breasts bone in
4 chicken quarters
2 pieces of beef tenderloin
9 sirloin steaks
8 sirloin burgers
1 lb of ground beef

I bbq'd tonight, and it was VERY good. the burgers were unbelievable. Sorry did not take any pictures, maybe next bbq I will.

I don't know if I could afford to shop there without the vouchers, but as others mentioned, I would go back and purchase meat at regular price for special occasions.

BTW, I went in at approx 2pm Friday afternoon, and meat stock was disappearing and people were lined up out the door.

I'm not saying others have not had issues, but from what I saw, odds are you are not going to walk in there and get everything on your shopping list. let's be realistic, he's a small butcher shop that probably never had volume like this before. Marlon was pulling out hanging cow and chopping up steaks constantly.

Yes, I agree with others that posted here that the hours are tough for voucher holders, the meat selection is a crap shoot, and the service can be questionable depending on the situation(rude ***** customer=50/50 service). I can see why this would be. Today the staff were all great, which I'm shocked as some of the customers around me were soooo rude. If I was working behind that counter, super busy, non stop pace, a rude customer would make me snap. One lady is like I want 25 rib eye steaks, and Marlon was like I don't have that much availabe, let's just say she was not pleasent.

Sorry for the long post, I just felt that a lot of people have vouchers and are nervous about their purchase.

Overall thumbs UP.


Sounds too good to be true.

Based on your order that makes no sense. I purchased 3 steaks totalling $106. 9 steaks plus your other items ordered would not add up to $236.

Do you have the receipt to prove it? Please take a picture and post it.

I realize that you have been a member a long time, but that does not preclude you from being paid off by The Butchers.

Looking forward to them shutting down and going out of business.

They have ruined on-line coupon buying.

+1

I would have to agree with Jdog75, there is no way that you got all that meat for $236.

I came in just over $200 and not even half what you got, and without beef tenderloin.(They did not have any, but I can imagine how expensive it would had been.)

[kator]

+1

I would have to agree with Jdog75, there is no way that you got all that meat for $236.

I came in just over $200 and not even half what you got, and without beef tenderloin.(They did not have any, but I can imagine how expensive it would had been.)


yeah... for $150 i got:
1 whole chicken
1.96 pounds of beef tenderloin
4.35 pounds bone in chicken breast

[quick_gsr]

you guys are ASSUMING (I don't even want to explain how stupid it is to assume) that the steaks and beef I got was large portions.

I got very small beef tenderloins, and small steaks, for a reason, that's what I asked for.

I did not want massive huge steaks.

I by no means think I got a DEAL. I paid 10.99/lb for the burgers, something like $6-7/lb for the chicken
steak sirloin was 26.99/lb same with the beef.

[00cp]

you guys are ASSUMING (I don't even want to explain how stupid it is to assume) that the steaks and beef I got was large portions.

I got very small beef tenderloins, and small steaks, for a reason, that's what I asked for.

I did not want massive huge steaks.

I by no means think I got a DEAL. I paid 10.99/lb for the burgers, something like $6-7/lb for the chicken
steak sirloin was 26.99/lb same with the beef.


http://jveeds.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/grammar-police-quentin22.jpg

[SumoMan]

FYI

I submitted a delivery order last Wednesday (4th).

Received a response yesterday (10th) saying that due to backlog of orders they wouldn't be able to get my order ready until June 16th.

That's officially 44 days after submitting my order.

[dealzuser]

you guys are ASSUMING (I don't even want to explain how stupid it is to assume) that the steaks and beef I got was large portions.

I got very small beef tenderloins, and small steaks, for a reason, that's what I asked for.

I did not want massive huge steaks.

I by no means think I got a DEAL. I paid 10.99/lb for the burgers, something like $6-7/lb for the chicken
steak sirloin was 26.99/lb same with the beef.


You have to know that whoever shares a positive experience will be attacked. They'll pick on anything, even your grammar... People prefer to make innuendos and self-victimize so that they can complain more. You can't go against popular belief and not be criticized. :) (See the NHL gay marriage debate. Free speech for some, but not for those who disagree with the popular belief.)

I've gone 3 times and got good service each time. I don't like the changing conditions and I don't like the way they've done this promotion. But I'll try to make the best of the situation. For the money I spent, I think that I've getting good value.



FYI

I submitted a delivery order last Wednesday (4th).

Received a response yesterday (10th) saying that due to backlog of orders they wouldn't be able to get my order ready until June 16th.

That's officially 44 days after submitting my order.


So many people are saying their delivery is very badly managed. This is not a surprise. If you just want to submit yourself to this abuse, then just keep trying to request it and wait the 44+ days. I would not be surprised if they don't deliver on the said date. This isn't Fedex, but some small shop with a truck, while serving massively oversold promotions.

[00cp]

You have to know that whoever shares a positive experience will be attacked. They'll pick on anything, even your grammar...

Just to clarify; I'll pick on anyone who has horrid grammar, those with positive Butcher's experiences or otherwise.

[kingkelly]

Yow thats bullll 44 days! I dont want to wait that long for a few ****** sausages...
But going in and trying to get meat has made me leave empty handed the last 5 times i managed to go there...:facepalm:

[bigredflag]

Yow thats bullll 44 days! I dont want to wait that long for a few ****** sausages...
But going in and trying to get meat has made me leave empty handed the last 5 times i managed to go there...:facepalm:

Have a look at this post (http://bit.ly/j3DgOv). For those wondering why the butchers deal is so broken.

http://bit.ly/j3DgOv

[bigredflag]

Have a look at this post (http://bit.ly/j3DgOv). For those wondering why the butchers deal is so broken.

http://bit.ly/j3DgOv

This just in (check out the end of this article (http://oppugno.com/blog/2011/05/12/the-butchers-and-the-broken-groupon-model/)), and brace yourself for another "The Butchers" ballsy move; email orders are delayed until late june! Here is an email they sent out:

Hi,
Sorry for the delayed response, we have been extremely busy. Unfortunately email orders for delivery and pick up are booked until June 23rd, therefore we are no longer taking orders until after this date. If you are able to come into the store to select your desired items this can be done at any time. We are open Tuesday to Friday 8am to 8pm to voucher customers. Please resubmit this order after this date, and an email will be sent to you to confirm when your order will be ready.
I am very sorry for the inconvenience.
The Butchers

http://oppugno.com/blog/2011/05/12/the-butchers-and-the-broken-groupon-model/

[iluvmikeharris]

☑ saddam hussein, ☑ osama bin laden, ☐ Marlon Pather

[JBlue]

This just in (check out the end of this article (http://oppugno.com/blog/2011/05/12/the-butchers-and-the-broken-groupon-model/)), and brace yourself for another "The Butchers" ballsy move; email orders are delayed until late june! Here is an email they sent out:

Hi,
Sorry for the delayed response, we have been extremely busy. Unfortunately email orders for delivery and pick up are booked until June 23rd, therefore we are no longer taking orders until after this date.
The Butchers

http://oppugno.com/blog/2011/05/12/the-butchers-and-the-broken-groupon-model/

Why would you wait until after the booked date to START taking orders again? That doesn't make any sense, is the person taking the orders also the driver? I mean you could maybe give a few days grace period or some slack time just inc ase but waiting until after the last booked date to order again seems a recipe for disaster. They probably had a hell of a time doing the logistics before but I can't see how this is an improvement. oh well

[00cp]

This just in (check out the end of this article (http://oppugno.com/blog/2011/05/12/the-butchers-and-the-broken-groupon-model/)), and brace yourself for another "The Butchers" ballsy move; email orders are delayed until late june! Here is an email they sent out:

Hi,
Sorry for the delayed response, we have been extremely busy. Unfortunately email orders for delivery and pick up are booked until June 23rd, therefore we are no longer taking orders until after this date. If you are able to come into the store to select your desired items this can be done at any time. We are open Tuesday to Friday 8am to 8pm to voucher customers. Please resubmit this order after this date, and an email will be sent to you to confirm when your order will be ready.
I am very sorry for the inconvenience.
The Butchers

http://oppugno.com/blog/2011/05/12/the-butchers-and-the-broken-groupon-model/

Mark my words folks; on June 23rd either the store goes under, changes names, or Marlon somehow becomes no longer involved. Remember that date... something will happen on (or before) June 23rd.

[Bookpreviews]

Buy from as local of a farmer as you can. If what you're doing works for you great. We have a farmer co-op here in Niagara too and they are great. You know what farm you're getting products from, etc but the co-op makes ordering and pick-up or delivery easy. Your's sounds similar to ours. :) Folks really need to be aware that these "organic" and "natural" perishable stores need to have questions asked of them. Don't like the answers or can't verify answers, let the wallet do the talking. ;)

Well, so far pleased with the co-op.
only minus is that most of the meats are frozen.
that is ok as I do not eat that much meat,but can be annoying when you want something faster.
I know what farmers everything is from as everything is labeled and each farmer on the site has their own ordering page...the website is very annoying and it takes forever to get through the list of around 40-50 suppliers (not all are "farmers" some are prepared foods,bakery,gardening,soaps ect...

I don't think we have any "organic" butcher shops here in Ottawa, maybe some stores sell organic meat,but the natural food store- they sell organic meats that are frozen,but not local at all....and really expensive compared to local meats....

[Rehan]

Whatever happened to "Marlin's Fish Shop will have it's Grand Opening in early May. (https://www.webpiggy.com/deals/side_deal/664)"?? :confused:

[hip10]

I went to the Butchers today and it was closed. The sign on the door mentioned something about the coupons and how the police needed to be called. I guess things got out of hand.

[gr8dlr]

I went to the Butchers today and it was closed. The sign on the door mentioned something about the coupons and how the police needed to be called. I guess things got out of hand.

Really! or are you being sarcastic?

[buddhababy]

I went to the Butchers today and it was closed. The sign on the door mentioned something about the coupons and how the police needed to be called. I guess things got out of hand.

Pic or it didn't happen.

[hip10]

^ Go there yourself and get a picture.

No I wasn't being sarcastic. I was there at approximately 4:00 and the sign was up. I can't remember exactly what it said, it referenced the coupons, customers and police having been called.

[00cp]

I think we have the "why we're closed today" excuse winner!!!!!

[JBlue]

Train wreck!!

[Rehan]

Nobody went specifically to take a picture of the sign yet?? :razz:

I wonder if bigphil26 got it right...
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-yonge-pricing-1003275/3/#post12500546

Sadly, the permanent closing of the store is the most likely outcome no matter what the circumstances. The owner didn't gain any real customers, alienated a bunch of older ones, lost a lot of money with the vouchers, and did nothing to improve the long term viability of the store. Whenever the revenue from the vouchers dries up, it'll be all down hill from there.

[JBlue]

Nobody went specifically to take a picture of the sign yet?? :razz:

I wonder if bigphil26 got it right...
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-yonge-pricing-1003275/3/#post12500546

Sadly, the permanent closing of the store is the most likely outcome no matter what the circumstances. The owner didn't gain any real customers, alienated a bunch of older ones, lost a lot of money with the vouchers, and did nothing to improve the long term viability of the store. Whenever the revenue from the vouchers dries up, it'll be all down hill from there.

I wouldn't say he lost $. Perhaps it was his original intention to get the cheques first and fault the business after his last payment (This is my original assumption). 20,000+ tickets at best maybe.. just maybe he has fulfilled 1/4 of that which is still profit for him. We are talking excess of $1 million here.. $1.5? $2.5! Further assumption this is the route he is taking if so I can only assume he would also default on payment to his suppliers which would be at no cost to him and retention of his profits.

[buddhababy]

I just Googled it hoping someone, somewhere took a pic of the sign, or even better, posted somewhere about what went down, but no luck. Where in heck are all those reporters who sang so sweetly about this place? Don't reporters listen to police scanners anymore?? Aaargh! I'm dying to know what happened!!

[00cp]

The lack of follow-up proves our previous contention that Sean O'Shea and Vanessa Lu are, in essence, hacks.

[dma87]

^ Go there yourself and get a picture.

No I wasn't being sarcastic. I was there at approximately 4:00 and the sign was up. I can't remember exactly what it said, it referenced the coupons, customers and police having been called.


Drove by this morning en route to work. No sign on door, and I believe Marlon was standing behind the counter on the phone. Looks like he was preparing to open up for the day.

[buddhababy]

Drove by this morning en route to work. No sign on door, and I believe Marlon was standing behind the counter on the phone. Looks like he was preparing to open up for the day.

Thanks for taking a look and posting.

*sigh* I thought things were getting lively again. ;)

[gr1mey]

I wouldn't say he lost $. Perhaps it was his original intention to get the cheques first and fault the business after his last payment (This is my original assumption). 20,000+ tickets at best maybe.. just maybe he has fulfilled 1/4 of that which is still profit for him. We are talking excess of $1 million here.. $1.5? $2.5! Further assumption this is the route he is taking if so I can only assume he would also default on payment to his suppliers which would be at no cost to him and retention of his profits.

profit and revenue are two VERY different things. if he faults the deal sites he would get sued into oblivion. they have merchant agreements for a reason. fulfilling 1/4 of certificates purchased is not profit, it is cash flow, which will later be used to buy inventory, which will soon run out and result in a loss. if he doesn't pay his suppliers, again, lawsuits. you do not retain 'profit' when you default on payments.

you have some inane ideas for how a business operates.

[hip10]

Drove by this morning en route to work. No sign on door, and I believe Marlon was standing behind the counter on the phone. Looks like he was preparing to open up for the day.

Why would there be a sign on the door this morning? He closed for the afternoon for the reasons the sign stated and he re-opened this morning like any other morning.

Honestly, you guys don't need meat, you need a life.

[foldart]

Why would there be a sign on the door this morning? He closed for the afternoon for the reasons the sign stated and he re-opened this morning like any other morning.

Honestly, you guys don't need meat, you need a life.

I can confirm (no pic, though) that there was a sign on the door this morning citing police involvement with an irate coupon customer. It evidently occurred yesterday. I'm a long-term customer of The Butchers, so I did go in and ordered something for pick up later.
I do, however, agree with this poster that some of you are pretty obsessed with this topic.

[00cp]

Hip10 and FOLDART; Sorry that your buddy Marlon ran a scam and is being called out online for it. Sorry that some people aren't satisfied with being taken advantage of, and won't just shut up about it.


So sorry.......

PS. If you didn't like this thread, you would stop opening it when you come to RFD, and you would stop replying to posts........:facepalm:

[foldart]

Hip10 and FOLDART; Sorry that your buddy Marlon ran a scam and is being called out online for it. Sorry that some people aren't satisfied with being taken advantage of, and won't just shut up about it.


So sorry.......

PS. If you didn't like this thread, you would stop opening it when you come to RFD, and you would stop replying to posts........:facepalm:

Oh right, so you can continue to spew your negative comments in a vacuum? You're not the only one with a point of view, or do you view yourself as the 'guardian of the truth'?

[JBlue]

profit and revenue are two VERY different things. if he faults the deal sites he would get sued into oblivion. they have merchant agreements for a reason. fulfilling 1/4 of certificates purchased is not profit, it is cash flow, which will later be used to buy inventory, which will soon run out and result in a loss. if he doesn't pay his suppliers, again, lawsuits. you do not retain 'profit' when you default on payments.

you have some inane ideas for how a business operates.

What are you talking about? Have you not read of retailers on group buy sites rejecting customers.. These are small time businesses not some complex organization where their reputation is at stake. If they had some sort of competency they would not need a group buy site to gain customers. At this point he is NOT in the red so it is profit. Sure he may or may not get sued but that is a civil matter which does not mean the plaintiff will pay even if he is found guilty. Comments on other boards have stated old 'organic' suppliers do not deal with him because of non-payment. Current weird post of a guy who sold him half a cow states the same. There is a lot of non-payment/screwing each other over in small business. Since it is civil matters a lot of the time people (unfortunately) get away with it and move on to screw the next. This is on assumption of poor business ethics which is not a far stretch for Marlon.

20,000 + vouchers with at least $1,000,000 paid out by group buy sites (Trueler did the math @ $2.6 million). Fulfillment at this point at best I say around 20~25% (more on the low end of double digits) and not even the total amount (redeemed) based on supply constraint and changing of voucher redemption rules. You are naive to think he not is taking advantage of group buy sites and with questionable origin of meat to leverage his profit margin. He has been paid at least $1,000,000. No way he is in the red @ this time. However if he continues to operate I suspect 15,000~17,000 fully redeemed vouchers is when the real train wreck will happen (If he has not closed his shop by then).

[JBlue]

I can confirm (no pic, though) that there was a sign on the door this morning citing police involvement with an irate coupon customer. It evidently occurred yesterday. I'm a long-term customer of The Butchers, so I did go in and ordered something for pick up later.
I do, however, agree with this poster that some of you are pretty obsessed with this topic.

Hey long time customer.. do you have vouchers or you continue to pay regular price which (might I add) have had 30% increase since the instantiation of GroupBuy deals. I'm curious why these (shill) long time customers still are long time customers. Is it because A) you are voucher owner now and happy you are getting a discount to a place you already shop? B) You are not a voucher owner but you love the place so much you and will wait and pay the 30% premium and enjoy the low/no stock and the influx of customers that lead out the door.

Also long time customer: If you do have vouchers and run out.. what will be your primary reason to continue shopping at "The Butcher'? Because you have money to burn?

[foldart]

Hey long time customer.. do you have vouchers or you continue to pay regular price which (might I add) have had 30% increase since the instantiation of GroupBuy deals. I'm curious why these (shill) long time customers still are long time customers. Is it because A) you are voucher owner now and happy you are getting a discount to a place you already shop? B) You are not a voucher owner but you love the place so much you and will wait and pay the 30% premium and enjoy the low/no stock and the influx of customers that lead out the door.

Also long time customer: If you do have vouchers and run out.. what will be your primary reason to continue shopping at "The Butcher'? Because you have money to burn?

The prices were always high at The Butchers, as they are at The Healthy Butcher and plenty of other higher-end shops. I'm more inclined to buy from cheaper places, but some in my family prefer organic/naturally raised products, especially beef. I have bought all of my ground beef there for several years. Yes, I bought a number of group deals, especially since I was already paying the high prices at this place...so to answer your question, it's A). To answer the second question, I will continue shopping at The Butchers because I have for a few years, I like the product, and I like the people. I don't like that things aren't always in stock when I go, but that's one of things I'm willing to bear, for the sake of the amazing deals. Furthermore, I would disagree that the prices have shown a 30% increase post-voucher. As I mentioned earlier, they were always high.

[shutterbug]

The prices were always high at The Butchers, as they are at The Healthy Butcher and plenty of other higher-end shops. I'm more inclined to buy from cheaper places, but some in my family prefer organic/naturally raised products, especially beef. I have bought all of my ground beef there for several years. Yes, I bought a number of group deals, especially since I was already paying the high prices at this place...so to answer your question, it's A). To answer the second question, I will continue shopping at The Butchers because I have for a few years, I like the product, and I like the people. I don't like that things aren't always in stock when I go, but that's one of things I'm willing to bear, for the sake of the amazing deals. Furthermore, I would disagree that the prices have shown a 30% increase post-voucher. As I mentioned earlier, they were always high.

Amazing another first time poster joins to defend The Butchers......

[kingkelly]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tPtBLqGpyPA/TcT0Ddkrh_I/AAAAAAAAAOM/vaJwg9FgK7k/s1600/homer_eating_popcorn.jpg

[00cp]

Oh right, so you can continue to spew your negative comments in a vacuum? You're not the only one with a point of view, or do you view yourself as the 'guardian of the truth'?

No, I see myself as "honest", "trustworthy", and not some shill for Marlon who has 3 posts to his name. Move along chump, no one is buying your snake oil.

[Love2Snack]

What a fraud. I got there this morning at 10am and there are a few people lined up outside and a guy barring the door. He was only letting in people that had CASH. There were a few people inside I could see with debt cards paying and a lot of angry people outside. They had a sign in the window that said open at 1pm but they would let you in if you told them you did not have a coupon. FRAUD

Here is a pic of the door sign

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/img2496i.jpg/

[gr1mey]

What are you talking about? Have you not read of retailers on group buy sites rejecting customers.. These are small time businesses not some complex organization where their reputation is at stake. If they had some sort of competency they would not need a group buy site to gain customers. At this point he is NOT in the red so it is profit. Sure he may or may not get sued but that is a civil matter which does not mean the plaintiff will pay even if he is found guilty. Comments on other boards have stated old 'organic' suppliers do not deal with him because of non-payment. Current weird post of a guy who sold him half a cow states the same. There is a lot of non-payment/screwing each other over in small business. Since it is civil matters a lot of the time people (unfortunately) get away with it and move on to screw the next. This is on assumption of poor business ethics which is not a far stretch for Marlon.

20,000 + vouchers with at least $1,000,000 paid out by group buy sites (Trueler did the math @ $2.6 million). Fulfillment at this point at best I say around 20~25% (more on the low end of double digits) and not even the total amount (redeemed) based on supply constraint and changing of voucher redemption rules. You are naive to think he not is taking advantage of group buy sites and with questionable origin of meat to leverage his profit margin. He has been paid at least $1,000,000. No way he is in the red @ this time. However if he continues to operate I suspect 15,000~17,000 fully redeemed vouchers is when the real train wreck will happen (If he has not closed his shop by then).

You are assuming you know the payment terms of the various contracts. Do they have holdbacks for inevitable refunds? What is the payment scheduling? What is the revenue split?

None of this information is verifiable and your assumption is very generous. The inflated cost of the products and the ridiculous values of the certificates make attempting to make any sense of any of the mathematics of this deal next to impossible.

[JBlue]

You are assuming you know the payment terms of the various contracts. Do they have holdbacks for inevitable refunds? What is the payment scheduling? What is the revenue split?

None of this information is verifiable and your assumption is very generous. The inflated cost of the products and the ridiculous values of the certificates make attempting to make any sense of any of the mathematics of this deal next to impossible.

Hmm 25-30% is the normal commission terms for Group Buy sites. Payment terms as you have even stated is 30,60 and some 90 (rare) days post roll out of daily deal, some are earlier being 48 hours for 50% (of payment owed). This information is easy to find if you just ask them. My argument stated before is that commission from the group buy sites is even less because of more favorable negotiation based on past experience from 'The Butcher' when they move from one site to another. Especially when the site knowing the popularity of 'The Butcher' will be willing to lower their commission. If not 25% is a fair expectation. No there is no holdback, however because of the increasing poor practice of businesses, it wouldn't surprise me they will start doing this. In the past and present, it is the Group Buy sites that eat the cost our of their commission. It's a #'s game because there is also non-redemption percentage that is considered a bonus for both the vendor and middleman.

As for the cost of the meat. That can be argued many ways you can be right or I can be right but what do you have to support it? My assumptions are based on facts and a larger picture of how they have operated with help from members here and Trueler who on their own did home work when their intuition sense an oddity. Other supplier of organic meat have came out and stated the low margin of meat which is understandable on a perishable food product. Marlon have stated this is all a lost leader which I find moronic as who in their right mind would want to lose money at this amount and by continually do so by putting more vouchers on more sites. Working your ***** off for a year for what? Who knows.. but with his increased MSRP and questionable source of products, it is very possible Marlon plays to the heart of the consumer with 'ORGANIC' products by charging a premium. We do KNOW they have had to changed their source of 'Organic' suppliers because consumers have directly contacted them and verified to be false. Having said that, I would say there is a profit via vouchers even with the commission structure. If not it is just sustainability but it is all about PRESENT VALUE (PV) of money at that point. Low profit or sustainability (overhead)/cost leader in return for cumulative future earnings in 2 or 3 (very) early payments. Think about it.. if your business is stagnent wouldn't you want a cheque for $1,000,000+ now? It's been almost 2 months and they have yet been able to effectively deal with customers in both over the counter or delivery. ZERO foresight or unwillingness to order appropriate stock. Marlon is not astute, he is slowing redemption rate best he can by the variation of policy. He has the money. Voucher redemption have been troublesome to say the least. Think about it 20,000+ vouchers. It's been almost 2 months or 60 days. How many vouchers do you think have been redeemed? No weekend redemption (-16 days) which would been 44 business days. 100 vouchers/ day?

The business will fold and a spectacular blowup will come out of this. The money will fund other ventures (MeatShop/FishShop) or whatever he has planned instead to of future purchase orders. In the end something will give. My guess 3-6 months with his continue attenuation of redemption.

I also find huge roll of eyes when he put info on his site about his father. I hope he is not playing at the heartstrings of the consumers but this is not new in terms of scammers/incompetent self-serving who knows what trying obfuscate an issue. This seems to be a common trait and not the first time I have read this.

FYI I don't even know what we are arguing at this point other than your last statement. You are objecting to my point based on an unknown. I hope I have painted a picture on what I do know and making a good logical assessment based after.

[Cas77]

What a fraud. I got there this morning at 10am and there are a few people lined up outside and a guy barring the door. He was only letting in people that had CASH. There were a few people inside I could see with debt cards paying and a lot of angry people outside. They had a sign in the window that said open at 1pm but they would let you in if you told them you did not have a coupon. FRAUD

Here is a pic of the door sign

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/img2496i.jpg/

**** just got serious.

[gr1mey]

Hmm 25-30% is the normal commission terms for Group Buy sites. Payment terms as you have even stated is 30,60 and some 90 (rare) days post roll out of daily deal, some are earlier being 48 hours for 50% (of payment owed). This information is easy to find if you just ask them. My argument stated before is that commission from the group buy sites is even less because of more favorable negotiation based on past experience from 'The Butcher' when they move from one site to another. Especially when the site knowing the popularity of 'The Butcher' will be willing to lower their commission. If not 25% is a fair expectation. No there is no holdback, however because of the increasing poor practice of businesses, it wouldn't surprise me they will start doing this. In the past and present, it is the Group Buy sites that eat the cost our of their commission. It's a #'s game because there is also non-redemption percentage that is considered a bonus for both the vendor and middleman.

Some companies pay the merchants to run deals (free give aways etc). The terms are entirely speculative. Terms in merchant agreements vary widely between industries/businesses. This is in part due to margins and also can have implications based on availability, expiry dates and a whole host of other trivialities. I think the opposite about the Butchers lowering the commission, as the deal market is already saturated with X (the number of certificates say DealFind sold) certificates. A lot of the sites that ran the deal are simply shite and don't understand the implications of running such a horrible deal without doing their due diligence. Anyways, some sites do have holdback clauses which pay out after the expiry or some such date and the money remains in an interest bearing account. The typical terms of non-redemption is more for the merchant's gain. Smarter sites will indeed start implementing a revenue share for this, as some sites seem to think a selling point of running deals is the non-redemption. Seems counter intuitive as you should be running these deals, usually, for acquisition purposes. Non-redemption does tend to hover around 20%.


As for the cost of the meat. That can be argued many ways you can be right or I can be right but what do you have to support it? My assumptions are based on facts and a larger picture of how they have operated with help from members here and Trueler who on their own did home work when their intuition sense an oddity. Other supplier of organic meat have came out and stated the low margin of meat which is understandable on a perishable food product. Marlon have stated this is all a lost leader which I find moronic as who in their right mind would want to lose money at this amount and by continually do so by putting more vouchers on more sites. Working your ***** off for a year for what? Who knows.. but with his increased MSRP and questionable source of products, it is very possible Marlon plays to the heart of the consumer with 'ORGANIC' products by charging a premium. We do KNOW they have had to changed their source of 'Organic' suppliers because consumers have directly contacted them and verified to be false. Having said that, I would say there is a profit via vouchers even with the commission structure. If not it is just sustainability but it is all about PRESENT VALUE (PV) of money at that point. Low profit or sustainability (overhead)/cost leader in return for cumulative future earnings in 2 or 3 (very) early payments. Think about it.. if your business is stagnent wouldn't you want a cheque for $1,000,000+ now? It's been almost 2 months and they have yet been able to effectively deal with customers in both over the counter or delivery. ZERO foresight or unwillingness to order appropriate stock. Marlon is not astute, he is slowing redemption rate best he can by the variation of policy. He has the money. Voucher redemption have been troublesome to say the least. Think about it 20,000+ vouchers. It's been almost 2 months or 60 days. How many vouchers do you think have been redeemed? No weekend redemption (-16 days) which would been 44 business days. 100 vouchers/ day?

I think this lovely piece of writing is excellent support to the invalidity of the Butcher's claims and the extremely low margins that exist in the industry: http://www.thehealthybutcher.com/liv...dIndustry.html. This business is going bust, that is the bottom line. Regardless of him having the money now or later, he is culpable and will have his day in court. This **** is unsustainable. Period. And to me that is not making a profit, regardless of the revenue generated before the product gets into the hands of customers.


The business will fold and a spectacular blowup will come out of this. The money will fund other ventures (MeatShop/FishShop) or whatever he has planned instead to of future purchase orders. In the end something will give. My guess 3-6 months with his continue attenuation of redemption.

I may not be the most litigious person, so I cannot comment on how flawed and backwards this is from a legal stand point, but to me it just seems like a huge liability funding a business on money pilfered from customers of one shady business to the next. There is retribution for customers, obviously through the deal sites, but their recourse will be swift. I'm sure DealFind and it's newfound $31M of VC money would sue the face off this guy.


I also find huge roll of eyes when he put info on his site about his father. I hope he is not playing at the heartstrings of the consumers but this is not new in terms of scammers/incompetent self-serving who knows what trying obfuscate an issue. This seems to be a common trait and not the first time I have read this.

Life is hard.


FYI I don't even know what we are arguing at this point other than your last statement. You are objecting to my point based on an unknown. I hope I have painted a picture on what I do know and making a good logical assessment based after.

True. Haha.

[buddhababy]

What a fraud. I got there this morning at 10am and there are a few people lined up outside and a guy barring the door. He was only letting in people that had CASH. There were a few people inside I could see with debt cards paying and a lot of angry people outside. They had a sign in the window that said open at 1pm but they would let you in if you told them you did not have a coupon. FRAUD

Here is a pic of the door sign

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/img2496i.jpg/

Can't actually read the sign because of glare but based on what you are reporting, this might be a big clue as to why there might have been some police involvement the other day. Thanks for posting!

[Love2Snack]

They actually had a guy/kid barring the door with his foot and physically keeping the coupon holders out and if someone came to the door he would ask if they had a coupon and if not he would let them in. I felt like I was at a club downtown or some bar with a bouncer. They had the sliding window open a bit to let air in so we could see what was going on inside and the people that worked there were trying very hard to ignore everyone outside and pretend that they were not there.
They hire such young kids there and I feel sorry for the staff because of the abuse that they have to put up with because their boss is basically throwing them to the wolves.

They just change the hours on the fly daily to whatever suits them and make up whatever rules they want. Which is fine if they hadn't sold all these coupons already under false pretences.

I live near by so its not a big deal if they are cleaned out for me, I can come by another day, but for other people I feel bad for them that come a long way. Also, I am not really used to being screened through a glass door and locked out. That was pretty shocking. I think it is only a matter of time till this thing reaches critical mass. He must need cash bad if he is only letting people with cash in to buy meat. I am sure that is against some commerce law somewhere.

-
Update
-

Went today at 1pm when I was told they would allow voucher holders. Had to wait for 1.5 hours in a line of angry people. Got inside, all they had was burgers and assorted shishkabob. Mostly pork.

NOTHING ELSE.

I think they are just cutting up their worst cuts of meat, throwing a marinate or rub on them and putting them out for $5 each.

Also there was a max of $60

Saw the boss and his buddy run across the road for beers to escape the pandamonium

Not worth the wait or going at all for elbow cuts of meat with some salt on them. ;(

This sign was on the window today so people beware of the day to day changes.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/img25052.jpg/

[foldart]

No, I see myself as "honest", "trustworthy", and not some shill for Marlon who has 3 posts to his name. Move along chump, no one is buying your snake oil.

Ha! There you go again, 00cp, trying to dismiss anyone who doesn't completely agree with your viewpoint. In no way am I trying to claim that people don't have valid complaints about the quantity of vouchers sold, lack of product, lack of accessibility etc. What I am trying to get across, as have several other posters (obviously unwelcome by your little club of negativity), is that The Butchers has (had) an established clientele who were obviously satisfied enough with their product/prices to shop there regularly. Even before the deals began, the place would be seriously low on stock on many Saturdays in the late afternoon. Shortages are much more marked now, of course, and that's unfortunate. Also unfortunate is the way that many people have had their email and phone-in orders confused and mishandled.

I love how you attempt to discredit any poster who is even slightly positive about The Butchers. To you they are 'Shills' or Butchers employees, but of course since they have an opinion and experience that's different from yours, it's invalid. The "GRAMMAR POLICE" crap that you post further demonstrates your arrogance. It's also interesting that you and several other posters here also attempt to discredit new posters. Of course, you've seen shills in action before, but every new poster isn't necessarily a shill. I'd say that it's much more likely that posters with a negative experience will participate in this thread, and that occurrence will draw others who gravitate to this type of discussion (like flies, you know). A few people, however, will join in to support a business which, in their experience, doesn't deserve to have a completely negative picture painted of it. And, of course, you attempt to bully them away. Cheers.

[quick_gsr]

AMEN brother!


I have been on RFD for 8+ years, never had an issue with anyone in all of my time on here. I'll admit, I'm not a frequent poster in the discussion forums and such, mostly use RFD for the HOT DEALS and BST sections. Many good deals because of RFD.

So when I hear someone say I was paid off by the butchers, or "grammer police", I just don't even respond to that crap. I don't have time in my life for those comments or people.

I personally don't get bullied away by people with nothing better to do than cause sh*t. It's so funny how some people are so tough "online" but in the real world.....another story

End of my post.

[Dealbyer]

Hmm 25-30% is the normal commission terms for Group Buy sites. Payment terms as you have even stated is 30,60 and some 90 (rare) days post roll out of daily deal, some are earlier being 48 hours for 50% (of payment owed). This information is easy to find if you just ask them. My argument stated before is that commission from the group buy sites is even less because of more favorable negotiation based on past experience from 'The Butcher' when they move from one site to another. Especially when the site knowing the popularity of 'The Butcher' will be willing to lower their commission. If not 25% is a fair expectation. No there is no holdback, however because of the increasing poor practice of businesses, it wouldn't surprise me they will start doing this. In the past and present, it is the Group Buy sites that eat the cost our of their commission. It's a #'s game because there is also non-redemption percentage that is considered a bonus for both the vendor and middleman.

As for the cost of the meat. That can be argued many ways you can be right or I can be right but what do you have to support it? My assumptions are based on facts and a larger picture of how they have operated with help from members here and Trueler who on their own did home work when their intuition sense an oddity. Other supplier of organic meat have came out and stated the low margin of meat which is understandable on a perishable food product. Marlon have stated this is all a lost leader which I find moronic as who in their right mind would want to lose money at this amount and by continually do so by putting more vouchers on more sites. Working your ***** off for a year for what? Who knows.. but with his increased MSRP and questionable source of products, it is very possible Marlon plays to the heart of the consumer with 'ORGANIC' products by charging a premium. We do KNOW they have had to changed their source of 'Organic' suppliers because consumers have directly contacted them and verified to be false. Having said that, I would say there is a profit via vouchers even with the commission structure. If not it is just sustainability but it is all about PRESENT VALUE (PV) of money at that point. Low profit or sustainability (overhead)/cost leader in return for cumulative future earnings in 2 or 3 (very) early payments. Think about it.. if your business is stagnent wouldn't you want a cheque for $1,000,000+ now? It's been almost 2 months and they have yet been able to effectively deal with customers in both over the counter or delivery. ZERO foresight or unwillingness to order appropriate stock. Marlon is not astute, he is slowing redemption rate best he can by the variation of policy. He has the money. Voucher redemption have been troublesome to say the least. Think about it 20,000+ vouchers. It's been almost 2 months or 60 days. How many vouchers do you think have been redeemed? No weekend redemption (-16 days) which would been 44 business days. 100 vouchers/ day?

The business will fold and a spectacular blowup will come out of this. The money will fund other ventures (MeatShop/FishShop) or whatever he has planned instead to of future purchase orders. In the end something will give. My guess 3-6 months with his continue attenuation of redemption.

I also find huge roll of eyes when he put info on his site about his father. I hope he is not playing at the heartstrings of the consumers but this is not new in terms of scammers/incompetent self-serving who knows what trying obfuscate an issue. This seems to be a common trait and not the first time I have read this.

FYI I don't even know what we are arguing at this point other than your last statement. You are objecting to my point based on an unknown. I hope I have painted a picture on what I do know and making a good logical assessment based after.


Called Dealfind. Asked for commission for deal. 50%.... DAMN!

[JBlue]

Called Dealfind. Asked for commission for deal. 50%.... DAMN!

I just fainted. Heard Groupon is the same. Man starting one of these sites must be like printing $.

[Dealbyer]

I just fainted. Heard Groupon is the same. Man starting one of these sites must be like printing $.


Ya, it's crazy if you think about it.. just think Wagjag. 2000-10000 voucher sales... at even 40% commission with an average deal price of $20-$30... Say, of that 40% they net 20%, even 15%.. That's between $30,000 & $60,000 + each GOOD Deal!

:-0.... What am i studying for?

[buddhababy]

-
Update
-

Went today at 1pm when I was told they would allow voucher holders. Had to wait for 1.5 hours in a line of angry people. Got inside, all they had was burgers and assorted shishkabob. Mostly pork.

NOTHING ELSE.

I think they are just cutting up their worst cuts of meat, throwing a marinate or rub on them and putting them out for $5 each.

Also there was a max of $60

Saw the boss and his buddy run across the road for beers to escape the pandamonium

Not worth the wait or going at all for elbow cuts of meat with some salt on them. ;(

This sign was on the window today so people beware of the day to day changes.


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/img25052.jpg/

Thanks for the update and the current sign photo. Very helpful. Love the last line - "No vouching on weekends". :razz:

[Love2Snack]

Thanks for the update and the current sign photo. Very helpful. Love the last line - "No vouching on weekends". :razz:


I just ate the shishkabob last night and as I suspected, the beef was a horrible tough and chewy piece of meat. The pork was ok, but the steak was what I would expect from a street vendor in a third world country. The flavour was not bad but it was like eating my old baseball glove. Very disappointed but not surprised. These guys used to have GREAT shishkabob. They are cutting every corner they can to clear out those vouchers.

[Pro]

has anyone tried getting a refund or credit back from dealgetters.com?

I bought $200 worth a while back. I was thinking it was going to be a great deal but I haven't read a single positive thing. It's pretty sad.

[dma87]

has anyone tried getting a refund or credit back from dealgetters.com?

I bought $200 worth a while back. I was thinking it was going to be a great deal but I haven't read a single positive thing. It's pretty sad.

Requested a refund, was told to try again, responded that we tried numerous times to claim coupons and did not want to "try again" and received a refund within two weeks by cheque from dealgetters. Emails were responded to very quickly as well.

[lorrie2010]

A total scam!!!! I live near The Butchers and have many friends and clients that live near it too. I bought these vouchers as "thank you", housewarming and birthday gifts thinking it would be a great way of introducing people to a neighborhood business while enjoying some bbq goodies. WHAT A BIG MISTAKE!! They change the rules whenever they feel like it. When I bought the vouchers you could redeem them any time the store was open, then they changed to to Tues to Fri 8am-8pm, now it is Tues to Fri 10am-6pm. There is never any stock unless you only want chicken. I had a client try to redeem his voucher yesterday and they yelled at him. I have had a couple of friends tell me that they had negative experiences too. If you try to email for delivery as indicated on the voucher you get an automated reply saying that they aren't delivering until June 23, 2011. I am totally embarassed and wish I had never bought those vouchers for anyone. Stay away from The Butchers, go to Oliffe's. At least at Oliffe's you get product and service. Don't give The Butchers your business, they don't deserve it. Nothing is a deal if you can't get product and are treated badly.

[gr8dlr]

A total scam!!!! I live near The Butchers and have many friends and clients that live near it too. I bought these vouchers as "thank you", housewarming and birthday gifts thinking it would be a great way of introducing people to a neighborhood business while enjoying some bbq goodies. WHAT A BIG MISTAKE!! They change the rules whenever they feel like it. When I bought the vouchers you could redeem them any time the store was open, then they changed to to Tues to Fri 8am-8pm, now it is Tues to Fri 10am-6pm. There is never any stock unless you only want chicken. I had a client try to redeem his voucher yesterday and they yelled at him. I have had a couple of friends tell me that they had negative experiences too. If you try to email for delivery as indicated on the voucher you get an automated reply saying that they aren't delivering until June 23, 2011. I am totally embarassed and wish I had never bought those vouchers for anyone. Stay away from The Butchers, go to Oliffe's. At least at Oliffe's you get product and service. Don't give The Butchers your business, they don't deserve it. Nothing is a deal if you can't get product and are treated badly.

Agree 100%...these guys are disgraceful. And they keep getting lower and lower on that disgraceful scale too. No one forced them to participate in the group deal. I think what they're doing is putting out the highest margin stuff (chicken, ground meats, expensive pork) and forcing you to buy that by not stocking what people may want.

[gherikill]

Anyone ask the store to just refund the $100?

Anyone video taped the experience?

[Love2Snack]

Looks like they closed the store according to their website for now

Also it seems like they are looking for a way out of the vouchers. "Please note if abuse on our staff continues we will not honor vouchers"

I'd get a refund asap.




"Due to the overwhelming success of our vouchers we have encountered numerous issues in our store with the behaviour of voucher customers. Our staff have been verbally and physically abused. We have met with police to ensure this behaviour does not continue. Because of this we will have police presence at the store beginning next week. We are also in the process of installing surveillance cameras for the security of our staff. Please note if abuse on our staff continues we will not honor vouchers. We are doing our best to satisfy everyone however we can't guarantee stock and abusing our staff will not resolve the issue. We ask for your patience during this time.

Our store will be closed until Friday May 27th to address these issues.

New Hours Effective May 27th
Tues-Sat: 6:30pm-9:30pm

Voucher Coupons will not be honored at any other time. NO EXCEPTIONS"




Scary

[gr8dlr]

Pretty hard not to "abuse" staff when the owner chooses not to be there to talk to his customers. So now he's going to pay for Police presence.

This is going to make people even more irate.

New Hours Effective May 27th
Tues-Sat: 6:30pm-9:30pm

Voucher Coupons will not be honored at any other time. NO EXCEPTIONS

[kingrukus]

haha, this has turned into a full blown SCAM.

[AcidBomber]

police presence? somehow i doubt the guy would be able to pay $65/hr for a cop when he cant even afford to honour the vouchers. :facepalm:

[Love2Snack]

police presence? somehow i doubt the guy would be able to pay $65/hr for a cop when he cant even afford to honour the vouchers. :facepalm:


Maybe he got a groupon for police protection

[izzybear]

Maybe he got a groupon for police protection

This made me laugh!

[Bookpreviews]

Maybe he got a groupon for police protection

No,
he will go to Micheals craft store and buy a scarecrow and dress it up as a cop....and use the 40% off coupon they have in the flyer every week.

or he will just hire someone to dress like a pretend cop with items leftover from haloween!

and the "video cameras" will probably be fake too.
My sister and one of her friends one year they had a drama performance outside and they were supposed to "pretend to drop computers" as part of the act.

She actually had found some companies who make items that look like cameras and computers but it is just a rubber or plastic case.
much cheaper then actual cameras or electronics.

[EYEAM2COOL4U]

I thought my spouse had purchased two $50 vouchers - given all the bad press she went in today to see what was going on but didn't try to redeem. An employee was on the phone dealing with a customer and threatened to hang-up if they didn't stop yelling at her on the phone and said that they were doing their best to address 14,000+ orders. My spouse ended up buying three small hamburgers for $10+ (why I don't understand?) which absolutely disintegrated when I put them on the bbq tonight so we made something else for dinner. Luckily it looks like a "he said she said" episode as I don't think we actually purchased any vouchers in the end, but that is also a risk with these sites - did you buy, what website, what credit card, what expiry date etc. etc. I have only had success so far (although with restaurants that I would not have gone to otherwise and will likely not go to again) so we need to re-think these "deals" in the same category as "BOGO" offers from places that you would not go to if full price.

[Arrgh]

Our store will be closed until Friday May 27th to address these issues.

New Hours Effective May 27th
Tues-Sat: 6:30pm-9:30pm

Voucher Coupons will not be honored at any other time. NO EXCEPTIONS"


So they are closed for a few days until Fril May 27. Then they open only 3 hrs at night 6:30-9:30pm. If that's their new hours for all customers, what are they doing during the day? Don't they still have to pay rent, or are they giving vouchers to landlord instead.


Or are they going to open other hours, but only when most of the stock are out, will they allow vouchers to be redeemed from 6:30-9:30pm?!?

[mabman]

Our store will be closed to voucher holders until Friday May 27th to address these issues.

New Hours Effective May 27th
Tues-Sat: 6:30pm-9:30pm

Voucher Coupons will not be honored at any other time. NO EXCEPTIONS

Its obvious that when you arrive at 6:30pm the day stock (I'm assuming that the store is still open during the day and its only voucher holders that have the new night hours) will have been removed and replaced with chicken, burgers and sausages. You can forget about getting any game or steaks with a voucher now. How any deal site could not possibly give customers refunds after this latest change is beyond me. Seems iron clad that everyone should be able to get a refund if they request it.

I'm also fairly sure that the unwritten (on their website) rule about only being able to redeem $60 of your voucher at at time will still be enforced or reduced further. Can you imagine if you have one of the recent $400 ($350 + $50 good for the fish store but they clearly stated in the deal that the extra $50 was also redeemable for meat products at TheButchers - hence $400) vouchers and can only redeem a maximum of $60 per visit ? You have to go there 7 separate times to use it up - absolutely ridiculous and criminal.

They are probably using this week to finish up the new fish store if they have any hope of opening that.

The deal sites must be going crazy processing returns - I wonder how much they've already paid the crooks.

[00cp]

I wasn't going to say this, but after reading all of the BS Marlon is pulling to not honour his commitments, I think its a good thing his Dad isn't around to see the disgrace he has become.

Low blow or not, Marlon is just plain pathetic and shameful for this self-created debacle.

[shopzors]

"Please note if abuse on our staff continues we will not honor vouchers."

Customer: But I drove all the way from Mississauga to redeem this voucher, my good fellow.

Marlon: ABUSE!!! THAT'S IT! NO FURTHER VOUCHERS WILL BE HONOURED!!!! But try the fish store across the street.

[kingkelly]

Just emailed WebPiggy about getting a refund after seeing the new hours.
These hours actually work better for me since theyre after work, but I'm thinking that 3 hour window will be even more coconuts now.

[canguy9999]

I don't have any vouchers left because I was able to get refunds on any I didn't use; which I'm very glad I was able to.

But I'm wondering if anyone has made any effort or contacted an consumer protection group such as the Competition Bureau. This whole thing is beyond ridiculous and no one seems to be protecting the consumer here. Its only a matter of time before more people learn from this to turn it into a scam of their own.

Maybe I should sell IPAD gift certificates for $250. You can pick-up at my store in downtown Toronto between 7:00pm and 8:00pm but as soon as I get my money from the group buy site I'll be moving my store to Jamaica.

[Rehan]

"Please note if abuse on our staff continues we will not honor vouchers."

Customer: But I drove all the way from Mississauga to redeem this voucher, my good fellow.

Marlon: ABUSE!!! THAT'S IT! NO FURTHER VOUCHERS WILL BE HONOURED!!!! But try the fish store across the street. You could make a Seinfeld episode out of it.

"NO MEAT FOR YOU!"
:lol:

[mikejb]

I have been having some challenges like everyone else redeeming the coupons at The Butchers. The store is not closed, it is just closed to people who want use their vouchers until 6:30 - 9:30 as per the new "rules".

I was in the store just an hour ago and one of the staff members explained that a few bad apples have caused most of the problems. Hopefully for all of us with vouchers, this latest change will be the last time we see the rules changing. I for one will be trying to use my coupon on friday and probably will not return until the fall. I don't need the hassle.

[Love2Snack]

I have been having some challenges like everyone else redeeming the coupons at The Butchers. The store is not closed, it is just closed to people who want use their vouchers until 6:30 - 9:30 as per the new "rules".

I was in the store just an hour ago and one of the staff members explained that a few bad apples have caused most of the problems. Hopefully for all of us with vouchers, this latest change will be the last time we see the rules changing. I for one will be trying to use my coupon on friday and probably will not return until the fall. I don't need the hassle.


Is it possible that these 'bad apples' are just conjured up by Marlon? And it is just an excuse to do whatever he wants and reinag on the actual coupon agreement? Every time I have been in there people were pretty calm. VERY disappointed and a little angry but never leaping over the counters and slapping the staff with steaks. Like they would even have any steaks available. It looks like they are not even taking dealfind coupons on the weekends any more. Next thing you know they will all 'expire' at the end of July or something.

[catwalk]

"Please note if abuse on our staff continues we will not honor vouchers."
What a joke eh? How is it abuse when he stole money from people?

If a CASH customer (who Marlon still seems to like & have stock for) comes in, gives him $50 - then Marlon or staff member says "COME BACK LATER, WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING, LEAVE US ALONE!!!".... the customer should be able to get angry! This is what Marlon has done but to thousands of people for over a million $!

I really hate that the sites were not proactive with this. The contracts are clearly voided because of all the changes he made, so the deal sites should be getting the money back from the butchers & refunding without hesitation.

[jerrysiz]

Enough is enough. Even though I have had generally okay (though extremely inconvienent) experiences with The Butchers, this is really the last straw. I was willing to deal with a little inconvienience, as the quality of the meat has always been good for me and the price was right, but this is no longer a little inconvienience. Just sent emails requesting refunds to both webpiggy and dealfind. We'll see what happens now. This guy has no respect for anyone, I'd like to think even his regular customers won't come back to him after this.

[pakmode]

I have been having some challenges like everyone else redeeming the coupons at The Butchers. The store is not closed, it is just closed to people who want use their vouchers until 6:30 - 9:30 as per the new "rules".

I was in the store just an hour ago and one of the staff members explained that a few bad apples have caused most of the problems. Hopefully for all of us with vouchers, this latest change will be the last time we see the rules changing. I for one will be trying to use my coupon on friday and probably will not return until the fall. I don't need the hassle.

Give me an S....

[ShelaghH]

I have been a regular customer there for YEARS, and I can assure you that once I manage to get rid of my remaining vouchers, that I will never go there again. I initially wasn't interested in the vouchers, but once I realised that prices were going up, I didn't see why I, a loyal customer, should be paying more for my meat when most of the people around me had a coupon, so I bought a few. I've never been more disappointed in a store. I used to know everyone that worked there - some of them by name - but now those people are mostly gone, and have been replaced by young staff members that are defensive the minute I walk in. (And that don't recognize me as a regular.) After being curtly told there there were no vouchers today - something I should have guessed given that there was actually more meat in the counter than I have seen in a while - I left, and went to the Friendly butchers further north on Yonge st. Ken, the owner, couldn't have been more helpful, and I got a great selection of meat, as well as fresh lettuce to go with it.

[AcidBomber]

If anyone wants to speak to the CBC with your experience: http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-yonge-pricing-1003275/13/#post12936022

[lorrie2010]

This just seems to get worse...I can't believe they are blaming customers. I don't condone verbal or physical abuse but I also don't condone scamming people out of their hard earned money. They set themselves up by offering new deals even after they acknowledged that they can't support their existing deals, they blatantly have 2 tiered pricing, they intentionally antagonize customers by refusing to honor their vouchers and create new rules every day. They blame the behaviour of customers meanwhile it seems like the common denominator of all the problems is The Butchers. I am sure that almost everyone has purchased other deals with no problems and has had no complaints about behaviour from other companies. The Butchers has all the control in this situation since they have our money and our product, yet we have somehow inflicted this unfortunate circumstance on ourselves – WHATEVER!!!

On a positive note, I have heard back from Webpiggy:
“I'm very sorry to hear this. I will have the funds reversed to your card right away. Please let me know if you don't see the funds on your statement within a few business days and I will follow up with the credit co. for you.

Don't hesitate to contact me if there is anything else I can help with.

Thanks

James Vettese”

Haven’t gotten the refund yet though but it has only been 2 days. I will give them another 1-2 days and let you know…

[gherikill]

On a positive note, I have heard back from Webpiggy:
“I'm very sorry to hear this. I will have the funds reversed to your card right away. Please let me know if you don't see the funds on your statement within a few business days and I will follow up with the credit co. for you.

Don't hesitate to contact me if there is anything else I can help with.

Thanks

James Vettese”

Haven’t gotten the refund yet though but it has only been 2 days. I will give them another 1-2 days and let you know…

Are you asking for a refund within 30 days? Or are they honoring it longer due to the circumstances?

[stylefly]

I am convinced that the shop is bogged down financially and is now angry at the customers for biting into what I'm sure is seen as pure profit on their end. We have done a group deal in the past purely for promotional purposes and I am personally of the opinion that ANYONE who offers more than 60% off more than once is in dire financial straits. The higher the discount, the higher the overall loss for the business, so most businesses will do one great coupon to burn through excess inventory, get a different angle out of their advertising budget, or attract new customers. I am seriously wondering whether this shop will be around past another six months and perhaps they are trying to deter people from using the vouchers so that they can pay as much as they can to their creditors and avoid personal lawsuits. Just musing, of course ;-).

*Added: Now their website indicates that vouchers will not be honoured until May 31st, which is also when their "new hours for voucher holders" will be implemented. Wasn't it the 27th yesterday?

[00cp]

Stylefly; maybe you'll be able to reach him directly to place your order (since no one wants to answer the phone at the store):

M Pather
(905) 471-5853
283 Fincham Ave
Markham, ON
L3P4E5

[Arrgh]

Stylefly; maybe you'll be able to reach him directly to place your order (since no one wants to answer the phone at the store):

M Pather
(905) 471-5853
283 Fincham Ave
Markham, ON
L3P4E5

What is this, and can people really find him there?

[Cas77]

What is this, and can people really find him there?

His home address and phone number. Under normal circumstances I would not condone this...but his scamming and commiting fraud has made me change my mind.

[callmethecat]

This is like watching a slow motion car crash.....

I want to stop looking at this thread but I just cannot.

[toronto_slim]

Give me an S.... Give me an H...

[HebaJournalist]

Hello everyone,
I'm a producer with CBC Radio's flagship current affairs program, The Current. We're doing a story about groupons, and I'd like to speak to anyone who is trying to redeem their voucher and unable to do so. Please contact me at heba.aly@cbc.ca
Thank you,
Heba

[gtjoys]

This is like watching a slow motion car crash.....

I want to stop looking at this thread but I just cannot.

+1.

Also, with so many posts in the thread I am surprised to find that no one had thanked OP yet before me... Not that it matters much. Just a bit surprised.

[mikejb]

What is VERY VERY interesting is how much they are changing the rules. On May 25th they would be allowing vouchers to be used again on May 27th. Now they have changed that AGAIN to the 31st.

HEBA from the CBC, maybe your story is playing itself out before your eyes. Watch and see how this owner deals with this.

Has anyone else planned on going by tomorrow as per the newish rules from 2 days ago? Maybe voucher holders need to arrive at 6:30 and wait for product.

[canadiankorean]

I'm actually quite surprised no major news outlet has taken this on.

[YLSF]

Hello everyone,
I'm a producer with CBC Radio's flagship current affairs program, The Current. We're doing a story about groupons, and I'd like to speak to anyone who is trying to redeem their voucher and unable to do so. Please contact me at heba.aly@cbc.ca
Thank you,
Heba

HEBA, for the record, this deal was never offered on "Groupon". I don't think you should use the word generically to mean all groupbuy websites. Groupon is a particular group buy site, it isn't a term referring to all group buy vouchers/sites. Don't give Groupon a bad name because their customer service has been excellent and they were never involved with this sketchy company.

[usdm_b18]

I think the solution here if you are upset about getting scammed is to go to the competition bureau.

Here's the link:

http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-eng/GH%C3%89T-7TDNA5

I figure that given the number of respondents to the thread, if people take the 5 1/2 minutes to fill in the form it should pop up on the comp bureau's radar.

I know the comp bureau has a mandate to respond if there is a certain number of complaints, I don't recall what the number is, however it isn't very many (+/-20).


Stylefly; maybe you'll be able to reach him directly to place your order (since no one wants to answer the phone at the store):

M Pather
(905) 471-5853
283 Fincham Ave
Markham, ON
L3P4E5


I don't think calling someone at home is going to change their mind about their business dealings. Go the legitimate route and involve the comp bureau.

PS if anyone does get a reply from the bureau, post it so that we can all know what the outcome is!

[Cas77]

I don't think calling someone at home is going to change their mind about their business dealings. Go the legitimate route and involve the comp bureau.

PS if anyone does get a reply from the bureau, post it so that we can all know what the outcome is!

Have you ever dealt with the competition bureau? Apparently not. In 4 months they'll aknowledge your concern. In 8 months they'll get in touch with you saying they are preparing to launch an investigation. In 15 months they'll tell you A) they found nothing wrong or B) they are fining the business.

Now assuming it's B, the governemnt will pay out the little money they can get back + the remaining money owed to their lawyers on staff with our tax dollars.

By that time Marlon will be sipping margaritas on a beach in Fiji...and you can kiss your money goodbye.

[00cp]

I don't think calling someone at home is going to change their mind about their business dealings.

I thought it was obvious I didn't post that information so you could phone in your orders lol.... my bad :facepalm:

[Love2Snack]

I think I figured out the new hours. This way they can clear out the regular stock from the daytime and put it in the freezers, and bring in the tier two stock for coupon holders. They will have a line so normal customers would never come in anyway.
They must be losing too much money selling tenderloins and higher end cuts at 70% off. This way they can serve the roadkill and squirrel kabobs like I got the other day there. I am pretty sure that is what is already happening anyway.

[Rehan]

What is VERY VERY interesting is how much they are changing the rules. On May 25th they would be allowing vouchers to be used again on May 27th. Now they have changed that AGAIN to the 31st. Changed again (page modified May-29-11 11:26:05 PM). No voucher holders until June 2.
http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html

[Love2Snack]

Changed again (page modified May-29-11 11:26:05 PM). No voucher holders until June 2.
http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html


Soon it will be pushed till the year 2020.

I am going to try to get my refund. I am actually surprised the web deal places are not standing behind their customers and trying to enforce the terms and contracts that were signed. I am sure they don't just do these deals without some kind of agreement but I guess I could be wrong.

[iridium001]

Changed again (page modified May-29-11 11:26:05 PM). No voucher holders until June 2.
http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html

Wow, you can only use the vouchers between 6:30pm - 9:30pm... lol!!

[00cp]

Changed again (page modified May-29-11 11:26:05 PM). No voucher holders until June 2.
http://www.thebutchersorganic.com/index2.html

Marlon, honestly....

[TorontoEh]

I never bought the vouchers but love this text on their site


Due to the overwhelming success of our vouchers we have encountered numerous issues in our store with the behaviour of voucher customers. Our staff have been verbally and physically abused. We have met with police to ensure this behaviour does not continue. Because of this we will have police presence at the store beginning next Thursday June 2nd. We are also in the process of installing surveillance cameras for the security of our staff. We are delaying accepting vouchers until security at the store is in place.

EPIC :)

[EL820]

Due to the overwhelming success of our vouchers we have encountered numerous issues in our store with the behaviour of voucher customers. Our staff have been verbally and physically abused. We have met with police to ensure this behaviour does not continue. Because of this we will have police presence at the store beginning next Thursday June 2nd. We are also in the process of installing surveillance cameras for the security of our staff. We are delaying accepting vouchers until security at the store is in place


Wow...voucher customers are treated like criminals!!

I'm glad I got my refund back from DealFind!

[Rehan]

"overwhelming success of our vouchers" sounds like a phrase from the Charlie Sheen School of Winning. :razz:

[Raddo]

Due to the overwhelming success of our vouchers we have encountered numerous issues in our store with the behaviour of voucher customers. Our staff have been verbally and physically abused. We have met with police to ensure this behaviour does not continue. Because of this we will have police presence at the store beginning next Thursday June 2nd. We are also in the process of installing surveillance cameras for the security of our staff. We are delaying accepting vouchers until security at the store is in place


Wow...voucher customers are treated like criminals!!

I'm glad I got my refund back from DealFind!

man, off-duty police officers cost about $75/hour cash! lol! If he has 1 officer for 8 hours (8*75=~$600!) Lol! He's willing to pay the police roughly $600/8 hour day to keep the voucher holders away!! :-0:lol: That's the angle: sell a crap load of vouchers that you can't fulfill and then hire the police at a fraction of the vouchers value to keep people away from redeeming the vouchers!!! What a concept!
Man, this thread is truly EPIC!! Almost as good as the Tyson Merton thread in the scammers forum!!! :lol:

[iridium001]

Wow I wish I thought of this SCAM! This guy is truly WINNING!

Next, he's going to enforce the rule where you can only redeem vouchers if the moon is in full bloom, and the planets are aligned. You must also be bathed in the blood of a newborn or else he's fetching the 5-0 on you!

[Love2Snack]

I am a little disappointed the many coupon sites such as dealfind, webpiggy, buytopia, etc have not addressed this on any of their sites or on any forum. Sure, if you beg for a refund some are giving it but I would like to see them try to enforce the deal that the Butcher signed and threaten legal action unless he keeps to the terms of the agreement. I am not lining up for 2 hours so I can get day old meat cut from the arse of a raccoon. GIVE ME TENDERLOIN

[zoro69]

At this point Id have to think its the customers own fault if they want to keep going back in pursuit of a deal. As near as I can tell everyone who has wanted a refund has eventually gotten one from their deal site, so no one has been scammed.

Beyond me how anyone wouldn't have sought a refund by this point. Surely no one thinks its going to get better with time? A lot posted here long before the last deal was offered that this was an impossible situation that wouldn't go well...if you still haven't figured it out, or still think its worth putting up with in hopes of someday getting a deal then you have to blame yourself as long as the sites are still refunding.

There isnt much the sites can do to get him to honour this better. Presumably by now he has most or all the money. They could sue him, which would take a very long time...and he'd just declare bankruptcy before they ever saw any money.

doesn't hurt any to fill in the competition bureau webform to put what is going on with group deals on the radar. But they can't look into every independent little store someone has a complaint with, especially when no one has yet lost any money..and the customers didn't actually buy from him, the businesses they did buy from are refunding on request.

Im just astounded there are people here reading this who haven't asked for a refund. waiting is hardly going to make it easier to do.

[beachboy]

Wow I came on here and just noticed this thread on the Butchers...I too have purchased many vouchers from the Butchers, and have used approx. 3-4 and never had an issue aside from not having every cut of meat I wanted. Marlon was pretty good with us, we went one day when it was packed and he even cut a few whole chickens and seperated them so we could use some of the dark meat for my baby daughter. The quality was pretty high too. I hope that this all gets sorted out so I can use the rest of my vouchers (approx 1000 worth).

[impulsebuy]

Just wondering if anyone has received a refund beyond 30 days after purchase from Dealfind? Bought mine at the end of Jan and after reading the reviews here I contacted them to get a refund but was offered credit +10%. Not sure whether to just take it or get the refund based on the ever changing restrictions (ie. times/dates, max of $60)

[YLSF]

They offered you the credit to buy any future Dealfinds right?? I personally would take the credit as tehy haev a lot of good restaurant deals especially if they are offering you an extra 10%. Sure, a direct refund would be even better but I think what they offered you is fair still. If you don't think you will buy anything from Dealfind again (I think the issue this time around was more "The Butchers" issue vs. Dealfind's issues) then just insist on a refund.

[impulsebuy]

They offered you the credit to buy any future Dealfinds right?? I personally would take the credit as tehy haev a lot of good restaurant deals especially if they are offering you an extra 10%. Sure, a direct refund would be even better but I think what they offered you is fair still. If you don't think you will buy anything from Dealfind again (I think the issue this time around was more "The Butchers" issue vs. Dealfind's issues) then just insist on a refund.

i think i probably will buy something from them at some point so the 10% on top is a nice bonus. thanks!

[angui]

http://www.moneyville.ca/blog/post/1000512--the-butchers-botches-coupon-deals

[YLSF]

Thanks for posting up that link. I want to see Ellen go in and redeem her voucher (or, better yet, have someone else do it with a hidden camera as they may know what she looks like )....

[gr8dlr]

Thanks for posting up that link. I want to see Ellen go in and redeem her voucher (or, better yet, have someone else do it with a hidden camera as they may know what she looks like )....

As I said before...why did she write this article before she could add her own personal experience notes. There's nothing like writing in the first person for something like this. She could have written this same article at any time over the past couple of weeks.

[YLSF]

Yeah, I find it really funny that a consumer advocate is afraid to go shop at a store :)

[Jdog75]

As I said before...why did she write this article before she could add her own personal experience notes. There's nothing like writing in the first person for something like this. She could have written this same article at any time over the past couple of weeks.

Like she said...she's scared to go in!

The Butchers started this problem and continue to "butcher" it. Ellen does not need to speak from her own experience if she is doing research and getting other's people's stories. Does a writer need to fight in a war to tell the story?

The fact is that Ellen is making the masses aware of a horrible situation that has occurred in the world of online coupon sites and good for her for doing it.

[Jdog75]

Yeah, I find it really funny that a consumer advocate is afraid to go shop at a store :)

I was verbally assaulted by the butcher Eric Davis when I went in...twice! Do you think I want to return to this place? I personally should have called the police.

I see this guy every so often in the Subway as well and he has the meanest looking expression ever.

[YLSF]

Like she said...she's scared to go in!

The Butchers started this problem and continue to "butcher" it. Ellen does not need to speak from her own experience if she is doing research and getting other's people's stories. Does a writer need to fight in a war to tell the story?

The fact is that Ellen is making the masses aware of a horrible situation that has occurred in the world of online coupon sites and good for her for doing it.

I hope she does go in though and actually CONFRONTS The Butchers. I hope she stands up for customers and helps put pressure on them.

I understand that some voucher companies are still dragging their heals for refunds so a bit of pressure on them too would help.

[Cas77]

I hope she does go in though and actually CONFRONTS The Butchers. I hope she stands up for customers and helps put pressure on them.

I understand that some voucher companies are still dragging their heals for refunds so a bit of pressure on them too would help.

Yup very lame reporting on her part. A good journalist would've went to see the butcher for his side of the story. That way people would see how idiotic his behavior is based on his answers (or refusing to be interviewed).

[Jdog75]

Yup very lame reporting on her part. A good journalist would've went to see the butcher for his side of the story. That way people would see how idiotic his behavior is based on his answers (or refusing to be interviewed).

I don't think we need to have him interviewed. He is stating his idiotic opinions and his idiotic side to the story on his website. That's his forum.

I think Ellen is doing a great job. Why would she want to go in to an already hostile environment and confront a man who clearly has issues with irate customers. This will serve no purpose and further alienate the situation.

What is needed now is a full apology from all parties involved. The Butchers and all the on-line coupon sites that made deals with The Butchers. People need to take responsibility beyond offering refunds or bonuses. People need to take ownership of their mistakes.

[kator]

CBC's the current is running a story tomorrow morning on online group deals and interviewed me about the butchers. i mentioned all the collaboration and investigation people have been involved in here on RFD. i also know they've been doing some investigating so there might be new info if you want to tune in.

they have a podcast if you miss it tomorrow morning: http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/

[jerrysiz]

I'm very impressed with dealfind, they refunded all our vouchers after only one email, no questions asked. They did say that usually they keep to their 30 day policy, but are making an exception as this is a very unusual circumstance.

Webpiggy, on the other hand, seems to want us to jump through more hoops. For anyone who has recieved a refund from them, what were the circumstances? Did they try to make you "try one more time to order" first? Is it just luck of the draw about which customer service rep you get? Because, after reading this thread (and others) I got the impression that they were now agreeing to refund the butchers vouchers (after that embarassing string of emails was posted by a user), but now they seem to be dragging their heels again.

I'd buy again from dealfind in a heartbeat, very satisfied that they're stepping up to the plate. Webpiggy, I'm not so sure.

[lorrie2010]

Are you asking for a refund within 30 days? Or are they honoring it longer due to the circumstances?

It must be due to circumstances because I bought the voucher April 10, 2011, complained May 20, 2011 and they refunded my credit card by May 25, 2011.

[Bookpreviews]

I think that for most credit card purchases you have 3 months from purchasing anything to claim "non receipt of goods" and Visa/mastercard/whatever should refund your purchase.

Not too many people know that.
I have had to use that policy from my cards a few times this year - not for deal sites, but for items I paid for and never received, or when direct energy fraudulently charged my card (had proofs in writing of this one too....).
I have never had problems getting funds back from credit card providers.
But I do not do that often, maybe twice this year and a few times over the years (prob no more than 6 times in all...).

Anyone try that yet??

[kingkelly]

I'm very impressed with dealfind, they refunded all our vouchers after only one email, no questions asked. They did say that usually they keep to their 30 day policy, but are making an exception as this is a very unusual circumstance.

Webpiggy, on the other hand, seems to want us to jump through more hoops. For anyone who has recieved a refund from them, what were the circumstances? Did they try to make you "try one more time to order" first? Is it just luck of the draw about which customer service rep you get? Because, after reading this thread (and others) I got the impression that they were now agreeing to refund the butchers vouchers (after that embarassing string of emails was posted by a user), but now they seem to be dragging their heels again.

I'd buy again from dealfind in a heartbeat, very satisfied that they're stepping up to the plate. Webpiggy, I'm not so sure.

WEbpiggy told me that they were going to be taking care of online orders FOR the butchers when I called and tried to get a refund. So now im placing online orders through them and hopefully it works out. And im not waiting weeks and weeks either. I gave them about 10 days to have my order ready.If my orders not ready on the 7th then im definitely getting a refund.

[dealzuser]

WEbpiggy told me that they were going to be taking care of online orders FOR the butchers when I called and tried to get a refund. So now im placing online orders through them and hopefully it works out. And im not waiting weeks and weeks either. I gave them about 10 days to have my order ready.If my orders not ready on the 7th then im definitely getting a refund.


When the hours at the Butchers changed to 6pm-830pm, that did it for me. I was happy with the product and service I've received, and I was willing to go on weekday to buy the meat. But I'm not going to continue to wait on someone who changes the rules every week. I called Webpiggy and got the the same offer. I emailed them my order Monday morning. No response at all. I sent a follow up email yesterday and did not get a reply yet. I'm not optimistic that I will get a reply.

Frankly, when the Webpiggy guy said it may take 10 days to fulfill my pickup order, I should have declined and insisted on a refund.

[kingkelly]

hmmm yeah i havent heard any confirmation from my order either (placed 4 days ago)...

Definitely getting a refund if it doenst go through, and just using it on foodscrooge.com

[pakmode]

CBC's the current is running a story tomorrow morning on online group deals and interviewed me about the butchers. i mentioned all the collaboration and investigation people have been involved in here on RFD. i also know they've been doing some investigating so there might be new info if you want to tune in.

they have a podcast if you miss it tomorrow morning: http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/

FYI - Kate had 'the final word' on today's The Current radio show (CBC is FM 99.1 for those in the GTA). They were doing a promo for the episode which will be broadcast this Monday morning, June the 6th sometime between 8:30AM-9:30AM.

[Love2Snack]

hmmm yeah i havent heard any confirmation from my order either (placed 4 days ago)...

Definitely getting a refund if it doenst go through, and just using it on foodscrooge.com


I notice one of the pickup places for todays lamb deal on foodscrooge is none other than 'The Butcher'

[Cheap]

foodscrooge.com

Why would these people have anything to do with The Butchers considering all the bad publicity? I wonder if they will let people in to get their purchases.

[gherikill]

hmmm yeah i havent heard any confirmation from my order either (placed 4 days ago)...

Definitely getting a refund if it doenst go through, and just using it on foodscrooge.com

Is foodscrooge a scam too? Anyone successfully used it?

[kingkelly]

Haha yeah i saw the butchers as being a pickup location. But theres others to choose from, and i thiiiinkkk you have to pick it within the week. Butchers dont actually supply food to foodscrooge. Havent used them, but they look interesting so far.

[canguy9999]

Is it possible that these 'bad apples' are just conjured up by Marlon? And it is just an excuse to do whatever he wants and reinag on the actual coupon agreement? Every time I have been in there people were pretty calm. VERY disappointed and a little angry but never leaping over the counters and slapping the staff with steaks. Like they would even have any steaks available. It looks like they are not even taking dealfind coupons on the weekends any more. Next thing you know they will all 'expire' at the end of July or something.

Oh I'm sure I was a bad apple. This was a while ago now; I made an order online, was told I could use 3 vouchers via e-mail for a total of $300. Sent my order in for a total of about $308ish. I called before I left for work to get there told they had my order; went over on my lunch. Its a 21 minute drive from my work one way.

So I got there, they had my package together but didn't have a few things that they said they would; so my new total came out to $146; and proceeded to tell me I could only use one voucher for $100. So they had half my order and wanted me to use one voucher and pay $46 in cash against my agreed upon deal with them. I wasn't loud or anything, but was firm. Gave them a copy of the e-mail and said I'm leaving with $300 worth of product.

They were huffy about it; but let me.

[Love2Snack]

I would love to know if anyone has tried to go yet to the butchers 'new hours' and what they have experienced?

Thanks

New Voucher Redemption Hours - Effective Thursday June 2nd
Thurs-Fri: 6:30pm-9:30pm

LOL

So pretty much, no more vouchers.

[zoro69]

lol, down to 6 hours a week, and someone reported on trueler they were closed then anyway.

Where is the global reporter who was going to use the voucher and report back how it went???

[mabman]

I'd love to know if they remove all the choice meats and steaks during voucher hours and only sell chicken, sausage, etc.

Also, has anyone been successful in getting game (kangaroo, ostrich, etc.) with a voucher ?

[kator]

I'd love to know if they remove all the choice meats and steaks during voucher hours and only sell chicken, sausage, etc.

Also, has anyone been successful in getting game (kangaroo, ostrich, etc.) with a voucher ?

i tried and failed, they kept saying it would come 'later'

[Love2Snack]

i tried and failed, they kept saying it would come 'later'


I also tried for Buffalo and Ostrich and it was the same thing, giving me dates when it was 'supposed' to come in and then when I showed up it was mysteriously delayed or didn't come that week for whatever reason.

They even went so far as to promise me that it would be ready certain days and times and when I showed up no one knew anything about it and they would just kind of stare at the wall and shrug.

Now these new voucher only hours are unacceptable so I will be asking for a refund. I am also very disappointed with all the coupon sites and how none of them have made announcements on their sites or addressed this issue.

Yes dealfind, especially you. You sold 12000 of them

I wonder if all the money has been paid out yet to the butcher or if some of it is still being paid out on a schedule.

[mabman]

Has anyone walked across the street while (trying to get non-organic meat ;) at the The Butchers and seen how close the fish store is to opening ? has anyone asked the staff when it will be open ?

I can't imagine how much time The Butchers has left with all the tricks they are pulling trying to delay/deny voucher holders from getting product. I feel there are only two possible outcomes:

i/ they will go bankrupt. I was actually told by one of their previous suppliers "they wouldn't be in business much longer". By the tone it was said I took that to mean they were going to be suing them but that is only speculation on my part.

ii/ There will be some kind of argument/altercation at the store during voucher hours, either a real one or one that is staged by Marlon, and that will be his impetus to stop redeeming all vouchers. He will say that it is unsafe for him and his workers to continue to honor them and you must get a refund from the dealsite.

Actually, there is a third option that I forgot about:

iii/ i/ AND ii/ both happening

[values99club]

Has anyone walked across the street while (trying to get non-organic meat ;) at the The Butchers and seen how close the fish store is to opening ? has anyone asked the staff when it will be open ?

I can't imagine how much time The Butchers has left with all the tricks they are pulling trying to delay/deny voucher holders from getting product. I feel there are only two possible outcomes:

i/ they will go bankrupt. I was actually told by one of their previous suppliers "they wouldn't be in business much longer". By the tone it was said I took that to mean they were going to be suing them but that is only speculation on my part.

ii/ There will be some kind of argument/altercation at the store during voucher hours, either a real one or one that is staged by Marlon, and that will be his impetus to stop redeeming all vouchers. He will say that it is unsafe for him and his workers to continue to honor them and you must get a refund from the dealsite.

Actually, there is a third option that I forgot about:

iii/ i/ AND ii/ both happening

iv/ new voucher deals for Marlon's Fish Store.

[00cp]

I'd just like to point out that neither Sean O'Shea (who lectured us all earlier on in this thread about journalistic integrity) nor Vanessa Lu have come back to follow-up or presented a follow-up report through their respective channels (GlobalTV and The Star).

That, to me, is HACK JOURNALISM. They are no better then teens working at a high school newspaper making up stories on the fly.

[zoro69]

someone, or 100 someones, should contact him and ask what happened to the follow up. Lots of ways to reach him

http://seanoshea.blogware.com/

[kingkelly]

Am i the only one who notices the 13 yr old kid working there?

[bigredflag]

Man-o-man, these guys are asking for some serious customer anger with this latest stunt. There are only 6 hours/week that voucher holders are 'allowed' to shop at The Butchers. More new rules just like that!

The Butchers in Toronto Further Restricts Coupon Fulfillment! (http://bit.ly/j7BfYS)

[kator]

Man-o-man, these guys are asking for some serious customer anger with this latest stunt. There are only 6 hours/week that voucher holders are 'allowed' to shop at The Butchers. More new rules just like that!

The Butchers in Toronto Further Restricts Coupon Fulfillment! (http://bit.ly/j7BfYS)

yes we were just discussing that... are you just parachuting in to advertise your blog post?;)

[kator]

I'd just like to point out that neither Sean O'Shea (who lectured us all earlier on in this thread about journalistic integrity) nor Vanessa Lu have come back to follow-up or presented a follow-up report through their respective channels (GlobalTV and The Star).

That, to me, is HACK JOURNALISM. They are no better then teens working at a high school newspaper making up stories on the fly.

are you really surprised though?

[Love2Snack]

Am i the only one who notices the 13 yr old kid working there?

Totally, every time I call or go there I get some little kid who is polite but looks like he or she should be in daycare not working in a butcher shop. He must be paying them peanuts and using their 'innocence' to deflect angry customers. It is very frustrating. Also, these new hours are unacceptable but I am having problems getting refunds from buytopia and webpiggy.

Webpiggy wrote me that they were going to try to get my order from them, ha ha... They have had just as much luck as I have had.

I think its hard to admit it, but the deal has gone sour and we are all out of our money unless we can get it back from the respective coupon companies.

[YLSF]

someone, or 100 someones, should contact him and ask what happened to the follow up. Lots of ways to reach him

http://seanoshea.blogware.com/

I tweeted him before about it, but, I just send him an e-mail also about it. I agree, he is suppose to be standing up for customers and this is the biggest fiasco in years when it comes to a need for a customer advocate especially with certain voucher companies (like webpiggy) not standing behind what they sell. I for one will never buy again from Webpiggy or Buytopia... not that I have had to worry because they both have pretty crappy deals anyway. If Webpiggy wants to save their reputation they need to be standing up for customers. Even Dealgetters refunded me fairly quickly after I explained what was going on.

EDIT: Sean was quick to respond to my e-mail, on a Sunday morning no less, in brief, he said they were filming some stuff last week and it should be airing early this week. They talked with both Marlon and unhappy customers.

[kingkelly]

Totally, every time I call or go there I get some little kid who is polite but looks like he or she should be in daycare not working in a butcher shop. He must be paying them peanuts and using their 'innocence' to deflect angry customers. It is very frustrating. Also, these new hours are unacceptable but I am having problems getting refunds from buytopia and webpiggy.

Webpiggy wrote me that they were going to try to get my order from them, ha ha... They have had just as much luck as I have had.

I think its hard to admit it, but the deal has gone sour and we are all out of our money unless we can get it back from the respective coupon companies.

Im going through webpiggy for placing orders now too, and I just heard from one of the butchers people via email asking when i want to pick it up. I said this tuesday like i had originally ordered, and they say ok, so heres hoping i get my 6lbs of chicken and steak this tuesday. Keep you posted!

[Bookpreviews]

I wonder if "the butchers" is going to hire some actors to cause a scene at the store and then use that as an excuse to say he has to close the store or something??

well not really "wondering" but sounds like something he would pull.

[callitasicit]

Keep an eye out for the CBC's The Current as they are covering the voucher story on The Butchers. It is supposedly airing sometime tomorrow (Monday) I am particularly interested as like many of you, fell victim to their voucher "deal."

[callitasicit]

Im going through webpiggy for placing orders now too, and I just heard from one of the butchers people via email asking when i want to pick it up. I said this tuesday like i had originally ordered, and they say ok, so heres hoping i get my 6lbs of chicken and steak this tuesday. Keep you posted!

They were supposed to deliver to my house today (free delivery) via Webpiggy Manager. Unfortunately, waited all Sunday and no one came. I have asked Webpiggy for a refund. Good luck with your order, I hope you have better success than me;)

[shopzors]

The best part of the CBC broadcast was Marlon hoping people would come to their senses in a year when everyone was able to redeem their coupons, and apologize for the way they'd been behaving.

[YLSF]

Totally forgot about the CBC this morning. Hope they will cover this story in their podcast when it gets released as I am not sure if the whole show is available in podcast form.

Any more info on what was said/what conclusion resulted?

[gherikill]

What email address did you use to get a refund from Webpiggy? I tried info@webpiggy.com last week and have not yet received a response.

[kingkelly]

The best part of the CBC broadcast was Marlon hoping people would come to their senses in a year when everyone was able to redeem their coupons, and apologize for the way they'd been behaving.

Is this podcast online? I dont see it on the current's website

[callitasicit]

Is this podcast online? I dont see it on the current's website

It isn't up yet.

[shopzors]

Is this podcast online? I dont see it on the current's website

I listened live.

[MikeJefe]

It isn't up yet.

It's up now:
http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1972834249

[callitasicit]

It's up now:
http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1972834249

Thanks!!

[YLSF]

Thanks!!

Double thanks. I am listening now... I wonder if I will be quoted. .haha..

EDIT: HAHA He wants an apology. This guy deserves as award for business man of the year.

So funny how the tone changed once the microphone is noticed.

[kator]

It's up now:
http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1972834249

they read a bunch of forum posts in the story, a few from here i think. finally!

[callitasicit]

The best part of the CBC broadcast was Marlon hoping people would come to their senses in a year when everyone was able to redeem their coupons, and apologize for the way they'd been behaving.

Negligence is not an excuse. Sounds like he feels more sorry for himself than for the consumer. He was greedy and now his business is paying for it!

[YLSF]

It is funny how he said his employee's have kids... I think he meant to say his employees ARE kids

[MikeJefe]

Double thanks. I am listening now... I wonder if I will be quoted. .haha..

EDIT: HAHA He wants an apology. This guy deserves as award for business man of the year.

So funny how the tone changed once the microphone is noticed.

I like how his staff tells the coupon holders "this is all we have" then when Marlon notices the CBC reporter there holding a microphone recording everything, he magically finds meat in the back fridge to serve... The reporter saw right through him and said it, "they wouldn't have been served if I wasn't here". He got caught red-handed :-) Beautiful!

So that verifies it. He (through his staff) will lie about having no stock left. Who was he saving that meat for when there's a lineup outside? Oh yeah, he was waiting for Yongeman his Chowhound shill to show up. Then Yongeman would go home with his $400 of organic steaks and smugly post on the board "As always, great service and selection, Marlon is the best, no problem redeeming my coupon..."

[00cp]

I like how his staff tells the coupon holders "this is all we have" then when Marlon notices the CBC reporter there holding a microphone recording everything, he magically finds meat in the back fridge to serve... The reporter saw right through him and said it, "they wouldn't have been served if I wasn't here". He got caught red-handed :-) Beautiful!

So that verifies it. He (through his staff) will lie about having no stock left. Who was he saving that meat for when there's a lineup outside? Oh yeah, he was waiting for Yongeman his Chowhound shill to show up. Then Yongeman would go home wit his $400 of organic steaks and smugly post on the board "As always, great service and selection, Marlon is the best, no problem redeeming my coupon..."

Quoted for TRUTH!!!!!!!

[kingkelly]

That reporter guy just tweeted me to watch Global News at 6pm tonight for more on the butchers story

[MikeJefe]

Quoted for TRUTH!!!!!!!

Glad someone else also sees Yongeman for what he is, a shill (paid or not) for The Butchers. What'll be his excuse this time?

I want to see him try to post in here and tell us how great he thinks of the store and write some more stories of the top notch service and selection he gets each and every time he goes to The Butchers, even when redeeming a coupon. Of course, on RFD, unlike on Chowhound, all the angry replies he'll get won't be deleted by the moderators...

[00cp]

To be honest I stopped trying to reply on Chowhound, every time I said ANYTHING even remotely negative about "Butchers" it was deleted within minutes.

After listening to Marlon's comments in this interview, I can't help but think "Poor Marlon... poor poor Marlon".

Mark my words folks.... Butchers goes bankrupt, their contractual obligations become void, and bada bing the fish shop opens. The whole while Marly's thinking "Thanks for the start up capital guys!"

[callitasicit]

To be honest I stopped trying to reply on Chowhound, every time I said ANYTHING even remotely negative about "Butchers" it was deleted within minutes.

After listening to Marlon's comments in this interview, I can't help but think "Poor Marlon... poor poor Marlon".

Mark my words folks.... Butchers goes bankrupt, their contractual obligations become void, and bada bing the fish shop opens. The whole while Marly's thinking "Thanks for the start up capital guys!"

I completely agree! Why else would he offer those deals, any other explanation just doesn't make much sense.

[winterfreshgrin]

i like how marlon says in the audio that "IF im still here in 9 months to a year" as his response to the overwhelming demand

[consumersos]

Have you bought a voucher for THE BUTCHERS from any online group buying site? Watch Consumer SOS at Global News tonight at 6pm for all you need to know about this.

[zoro69]

This will be moved to the thread you've posted on in the past...but considering your past weak effort "reporting" on the butchers, people would be better off listening to the higher quality CBC report this morning, or reading ellen roseman

[sspikachu25]

http://www.moneyville.ca/blog/post/1000512--this-online-coupon-deal-has-caused-chaos

[catwalk]

Mark my words folks.... Butchers goes bankrupt, their contractual obligations become void, and bada bing the fish shop opens. The whole while Marly's thinking "Thanks for the start up capital guys!"
I also can bet that the fish shop is not in his name, I'm sure he dragged his wife/friend or anyone else to sign the paperwork for that place so he is contract free & doesn't need to do anything after taking off with millions. :facepalm:

Marlon could teach the Nigerians a thing or two about a great scam! ;)

[Love2Snack]

i like how marlon says in the audio that "IF im still here in 9 months to a year" as his response to the overwhelming demand


I totally heard that too. I think he's planning on making a quick exit at some point.

I have placed at least 6 orders since March and not got anything from them. I feel like a vagrant being locked out of a store when I come by and treated like a leper.

Also, the butcher has done nothing to re-assure people that they are trying to fix things. Cutting hours down to 2 days a week in the late evening is pretty much saying no more vouchers. At least to me.

[travelgeek]

It's on global tv now.

[jerrysiz]

It's up now:
http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1972834249

Finally, a balanced news story about The Butchers! Pretty funny though, when Marlon tries to play the victim...a couple of things he said struck me as particularly telling...

"This is no scam. People come, they get their meat."

Actually we don't. If we got the product we wouldn't be that upset, despite the constant changing of terms of the voucher. It's more like: People come, we are rude to them and turn them away (or we are unexpectedly closed).

"Yes we sell out, but you have a year to use it. It may take six months, they may not get an order because we’re closed."

No one can actually be this obtuse. He really expects people to believe he can't understand why thousands of customers would be upset at not being able to use their vouchers for months after they bought them? Be upset at being repeatedly turned away, even during the "official" limited voucher hours he posted on his website? Be uspet at waiting at home for orders that never arrive, with no calls, explainations, or apologies? Yeah, sure Marlon, let's all be patient for six months until you think it's "reasonable" for us to expect to be able to redeem our vouchers...the BBQing is really great in Toronto in November/December. :rolleyes:

I was pretty lucky I was able to go in one weekday morning before the new round of restrictive voucher hours came down, but now I'll never be able to redeem the rest of my voucher. Webpiggy has arranged a delivery for next week (I'm holding my breath ;)) I hope when they fail to deliver again (literally) I'll finally get my refund.

[jerrysiz]

It's on global tv now.

Amazing, did you see the overflowing trays of meats in the display cases? :lol: I think Global should have arrived without warning for the interview and shown what the stock is really like in there (or if they were even open).

[zoro69]

He still got it wrong making out dealgetters and webpiggy are refunding no problem

[kator]

Amazing, did you see the overflowing trays of meats in the display cases? :lol: I think Global should have arrived without warning for the interview and shown what the stock is really like in there (or if they were even open).

that's what heba did in her story for the current, which is why she got a realistic picture of what actually goes on there. props to her.

[Cheap]

Amazing, did you see the overflowing trays of meats in the display cases? :lol: I think Global should have arrived without warning for the interview and shown what the stock is really like in there (or if they were even open).

Of course there was stock in the display cases, it was during a no voucher day. They should come back thursday night and see whats on display.

[Love2Snack]

Well I know they do keep a lot of meat in the back for cash customers. You could see them bringing some out in some of the shots.

I think the store's name has been pretty soiled. I wonder if they will try to close and re-open with a new name.

It's a shame because all they had to do was place a smaller limit on the coupons at the beginning like 75$ or something per visit and they probably could have weathered the storm.


From what the reporter said you could get your money back from the groupon places or the credit card companies but people have reported here that the cc companies are not refunding.

I also don't see how the groupon companies will give the butcher all the money any time soon with the problems they are having.

[jerrysiz]

Of course there was stock in the display cases, it was during a no voucher day. They should come back thursday night and see whats on display.

I think it had much less to do with it being a "no voucher day" than with deliberate staging for the cameras. You really think if Global had just dropped in randomly (even on a "no vouchers" day) they would have seen that many overflowing trays of product, that many happy customers paying in cash for bags and bags of meat, and not even run into one voucher holder trying to enter the store? Please.

[JBlue]

Also, the butcher has done nothing to re-assure people that they are trying to fix things. Cutting hours down to 2 days a week in the late evening is pretty much saying no more vouchers. At least to me.

THIS!!! Down to 6 hours/week to fulfill vouchers is absolutely ridiculous. He has triple the people he must sever by going this route with no guarantee there will be amble selection at the new time. IF anything it looks like he is forcing customers to clear his weekday stock leftovers. He has also opened himself to even more stress by going this route. Pretty sure he will closed the place down by blaming the customer. Great audio feed but I do wish they grilled him on the origin of his meat and his current organic supplier. I just didn't buy the way he said he was losing $.

[jerrysiz]

THIS!!! Down to 6 hours/week to fulfill vouchers is absolutely ridiculous. He has triple the people he must sever by going this route with no guarantee there will be amble selection at the new time. IF anything it looks like he is forcing customers to clear his weekday stock leftovers. He has also opened himself to even more stress by going this route. Pretty sure he will closed the place down by blaming the customer.

He's either trying to make it so hard for people to redeem vouchers that they don't bother (or wait, or ask for a refund from the deal sites), or he's trying to restrict the vouchers so much to goad customers into getting upset so he can say he's in danger and therefore can't honour the vouchers. I'm not even surprised at his behaviour anymore, but it does surprise me that some deal sites (e.g. webpiggy) are not giving well-deserved refunds, but rather trying to "make it work" with a company that clearly has no interest in satisfying the voucher customers. You'd think the deal sites would be stepping up so that they can distance themselves from The Butchers behaviour as much as possible. Keep denying refunds and customers' anger will be directed towards them as well. Not smart.

[Cheap]

I think it had much less to do with it being a "no voucher day" than with deliberate staging for the cameras. You really think if Global had just dropped in randomly (even on a "no vouchers" day) they would have seen that many overflowing trays of product, that many happy customers paying in cash for bags and bags of meat, and not even run into one voucher holder trying to enter the store? Please.

I can't comment on how Global chose to edit the footage they shot. Sean was live but didn't they run some recorded stuff? They could have recorded that anytime, even the last time he was there.

Why would they not fill the displays when they are only open to cash paying customers, they have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

[Beeteeoh]

The fish shop across the street is done. The window paper fell down once and I looked inside to see a finished store with coolers and fridges - even a flat screen on the wall above the counter. I seriously wonder what the hold-up is.


Has anyone walked across the street while (trying to get non-organic meat ;) at the The Butchers and seen how close the fish store is to opening ? has anyone asked the staff when it will be open ?

I can't imagine how much time The Butchers has left with all the tricks they are pulling trying to delay/deny voucher holders from getting product. I feel there are only two possible outcomes:

i/ they will go bankrupt. I was actually told by one of their previous suppliers "they wouldn't be in business much longer". By the tone it was said I took that to mean they were going to be suing them but that is only speculation on my part.

ii/ There will be some kind of argument/altercation at the store during voucher hours, either a real one or one that is staged by Marlon, and that will be his impetus to stop redeeming all vouchers. He will say that it is unsafe for him and his workers to continue to honor them and you must get a refund from the dealsite.

Actually, there is a third option that I forgot about:

iii/ i/ AND ii/ both happening

[jerrysiz]

I can't comment on how Global chose to edit the footage they shot. Sean was live but didn't they run some recorded stuff? They could have recorded that anytime, even the last time he was there.

Why would they not fill the displays when they are only open to cash paying customers, they have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

I don't know, it just seemed to look comically excessive to me. Usually butchers will have a tray with a row of meats visible so customers can select the ones they want, and to avoid so much meat being effected by the temprature changes when the display doors constantly open and close. When I saw the footage with the meats stacked 8 or 9 tall so they were towering a foot or more over the trays it just screamed "staging" to me. Even back when I first went to the Butchers (the first voucher, before any complaints or restrictions) they never displayed that much meat at one time.

And I do think that if it was not pre-recorded or staged, they would have had at least one person try to come in with a voucher during that time, not everyone has read the "new hours" on the website, I'm sure. I mean, if Marlon is claiming he is in danger from all the crazy voucher holders, it sure didn't come across in that clip, now did it? ;)

Edit: Okay, after watching the clip again online, it wasn't quite as crazy overstocked as I had remembered watching the first time, but still way more meat on display then I've ever seen offered at the Butchers, and certainly much more than would have been there on an average day in the last little while.

[00cp]

Sean O'Shea.... I know you will read this at some point.

You failed, YET AGAIN, to get the story right. Either you are duplicitous in this "Butchers" farce (which I doubt), or you are a fool who was easily duped by comically overflowing trays of meat.

[YLSF]

Sean said in his e-mail to me that he was recording footage at the store last week. I wasn't able to see the report live but hopefully will be up on the website soon.

Really reporters should be confronting him about the source of meat too and determine if things are legit or not on that end.

[Cheap]

I don't know, it just seemed to look comically excessive to me. Usually butchers will have a tray with a row of meats visible so customers can select the ones they want, and to avoid so much meat being effected by the temprature changes when the display doors constantly open and close. When I saw the footage with the meats stacked 8 or 9 tall so they were towering a foot or more over the trays it just screamed "staging" to me. Even back when I first went to the Butchers (the first voucher, before any complaints or restrictions) they never displayed that much meat at one time.

And I do think that if it was not pre-recorded or staged, they would have had at least one person try to come in with a voucher during that time, not everyone has read the "new hours" on the website, I'm sure. I mean, if Marlon is claiming he is in danger from all the crazy voucher holders, it sure didn't come across in that clip, now did it? ;)

That was my point, was all of that footage shot today? Some of it could have been from when Sean went there to get his meat. I don't know about this clip, but they do that all the time on the news, like when they show an auto assembly plant when talking about sales or whatever. It is usually recent footage but it likely wasn't shot that day.

[MikeJefe]

It's on global tv now.

If you missed it, go to:

http://www.globaltoronto.com/video/index.html

click on "Consumer SOS" then find "Consumer coupon chaos" (click scam-artist Marlon Pather's face).

CBC Radio did a much better job than Global TV, but CBC had more time for their segment (20 minutes versus about 3 for Global).

[jerrysiz]

That was my point, was all of that footage shot today? Some of it could have been from when Sean went there to get his meat. I don't know about this clip, but they do that all the time on the news, like when they show an auto assembly plant when talking about sales or whatever. It is usually recent footage but it likely wasn't shot that day.

According to YLSF's post, Sean said the footage was shot last week. This makes me very interested to know if they were accepting vouchers while they were filming, as this would have been very soon after the latest "new hours", and I would think they would have had at least a few voucher holders come in during the filming assuming they could use their vouchers during business hours (minus lunch hours, of course). I wonder if the butchers let all the voucher holders that came during the filming have a really great experience (able to use the vouchers with no argument, no $60 limits, unprecedented stock levels) to give a good impression for the camera. If not, the camera would have seen what all of us have experienced: voucher holders being denied entry/being talked to rudely/being limited in the amount of purchase. For the press to have managed to film such a happy scene if this had just been an average day last week seems pretty unlikely to me.

[YLSF]

Hmm.. the SOS report wasn't that bad. Just watched it... Basically, it didn't hold The Butchers accountable though.

[Stewie123]

I totally heard that too. I think he's planning on making a quick exit at some point.

I have placed at least 6 orders since March and not got anything from them. I feel like a vagrant being locked out of a store when I come by and treated like a leper.

Also, the butcher has done nothing to re-assure people that they are trying to fix things. Cutting hours down to 2 days a week in the late evening is pretty much saying no more vouchers. At least to me.

I was one of the poor suckers who bought a voucher off of Buytopia, if hours have been cut down to 6 hours a week and coupons expire in a year, assuming that about 20,000 (let's be generous and cut that down to 15000) vouchers sold, the butchers would have to redeem 48 vouchers per hour! :mad:
15000/(6 hours in a week x 52 weeks in a year)= 48 vouchers redeemed per hour

[Love2Snack]

I think that the fact that there is a ready-to-go meat/fish/whatever store across the road screams to me bait and switch.

I wonder if he's planning on closing 'The Butcher', voiding every deal and re-opening conveniently across the road the next day as a new company.

Lets face it, you don't need a whole new store to sell only fish. What other store has a fish location and a meat location. Especially with the price of rent on Yonge St. in that area.

Many butchers carry both. If the store is too small then you move or expand. You would never have two separate locations so close together.


The more I think about it, the more it STINKS.

[JBlue]

I was one of the poor suckers who bought a voucher off of Buytopia, if hours have been cut down to 6 hours a week and coupons expire in a year, assuming that about 20,000 (let's be generous and cut that down to 15000) vouchers sold, the butchers would have to redeem 48 vouchers per hour! :mad:
15000/(6 hours in a week x 52 weeks in a year)= 48 vouchers redeemed per hour

3 months have past. Increase your # by 25%

[Bookpreviews]

I also tried for Buffalo and Ostrich and it was the same thing, giving me dates when it was 'supposed' to come in and then when I showed up it was mysteriously delayed or didn't come that week for whatever reason.

They even went so far as to promise me that it would be ready certain days and times and when I showed up no one knew anything about it and they would just kind of stare at the wall and shrug.

Now these new voucher only hours are unacceptable so I will be asking for a refund. I am also very disappointed with all the coupon sites and how none of them have made announcements on their sites or addressed this issue.

Yes dealfind, especially you. You sold 12000 of them

I wonder if all the money has been paid out yet to the butcher or if some of it is still being paid out on a schedule.

Where would someone get Buffalo in Canada?
I don't go to many butcher shops,but haven't seen any here.

The closest thing I've seen here is that there is a bison farm in Quebec near me and I have met the farmer and spoke to him a few times.
haven't bought any meat,but people seem to like bison.
I'm actually hoping to visit the bison farm this summer- you can get a tractor ride in the field or a horse pulled ride to see where the bison live!

[Jdog75]

:lol: Good luck getting the Globe and Mail to run your story about how an organic butcher shop cheated you out of 70% off a smoked salmon package. While you're at it, tell them about that time how Dell / Staples / whoever didn't honour a price mistake selling off a pallet of laptops for $9.97. Then again, you would probably have better luck contacting the Sun.

This is a deal site. You win some and you lose some; it's part of the . In this case, you've got your panties in a bunch even though you've gotten a full refund from Dealfind. If you want the most pleasant customer experience, then go pay full price.


Wrong attitude to take about winning some and losing some. This isn't a ping pong match or a game of scrabble on facebook. When people use hard earned money to buy these deals they deserve protection against fraud, deception and misleading deals.

The media will explode over this soon enough and the Ontario Gov't will crack down to protect consumers.

What is full price? I don't think anyone knows what that means today. That concept no longer exists.

Where is "Coolers" now? Cat got your tongue like Webpiggy and Dealfind?

[shopzors]

If you missed it, go to:

http://www.globaltoronto.com/video/index.html

click on "Consumer SOS" then find "Consumer coupon chaos" (click scam-artist Marlon Pather's face).

CBC Radio did a much better job than Global TV, but CBC had more time for their segment (20 minutes versus about 3 for Global).

Global needs to learn how to create videos. I got an ad for their online news part way through, and after that the picture cut out.

[CSK'sMom]

Where would someone get Buffalo in Canada?
I don't go to many butcher shops,but haven't seen any here.

The closest thing I've seen here is that there is a bison farm in Quebec near me and I have met the farmer and spoke to him a few times.
haven't bought any meat,but people seem to like bison.
I'm actually hoping to visit the bison farm this summer- you can get a tractor ride in the field or a horse pulled ride to see where the bison live!

Bison and Buffalo are basically the same thing. Have a look here... http://www.niagaralocalfoodcoop.ca/ Lakeland does bison, venison, wild boar, etc.

[kingkelly]

Whitehouse meats at st lawrence market carries bison/buffalo, also have a store in leaside. Abotut 7.99/lb for ground, 12.99/lb for ribs

[canguy9999]

So I guess the story behind needing security and shorting store hours is that some guy got angry and punched one of The Butchers employees.

Although I don't condone this; nor is it the right thin for anyone to do from my experiences in store, the stories I've heard and the ridiculous restrictions placed on the vouchers I can see why it happened.

This could have easily been one hot head but I picture a guy coming in from a place like Vaughn, Oshawa, or Brantford; planning a Toronto trip around picking up his $400 worth or Natural/Organic meat. Spending 45 minutes driving there, and being kicked out at the door like a second rate customer because they have a voucher. The guy probably put up a fuss saying he wanted his meat because the restrictions weren't put in place when he purchased them; nor did he know about them. A heated argument probably started; one thing lead to another and someone gets punched.

Really it was very preventable from The Butchers end; they obviously knew then and now that they are truly pissing customers off. This was really just a matter of time.

I know they are having issues with supply and can't really serve all voucher holders; but if they truly owned up to this and came up with a reasonable way to deal with it it wouldn't be so bad.

As much as my experiences haven't been as bad as most(I was lucky to use half of my vouchers before **** hit the fan, and got a prompt refund on my other vouchers) I will never purchase from a company that Marlon is involved with again; if anyone has vouchers still I'd again recommend people make a complaint through the Competition Brueau (http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-eng/GH%C3%89T-7TDNA5).

[MikeJefe]

Really it was very preventable from The Butchers end; they obviously knew then and now that they are truly pissing customers off. This was really just a matter of time.

I know they are having issues with supply and can't really serve all voucher holders; but if they truly owned up to this and came up with a reasonable way to deal with it it wouldn't be so bad.

As much as my experiences haven't been as bad as most(I was lucky to use half of my vouchers before **** hit the fan, and got a prompt refund on my other vouchers) I will never purchase from a company that Marlon is involved with again; if anyone has vouchers still I'd again recommend people make a complaint through the Competition Brueau (http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-eng/GH%C3%89T-7TDNA5).

If he is unable to service every customer (voucher or not) equally, IMHO the right thing to do is to cancel all vouchers and instruct the group deal sites to refund all unredeemed vouchers. That and maybe as a goodwill gesture, every refund comes with a reasonable coupon (maybe 15% off your first order) to try to get you in the store, which was the goal all along but failed. He needs to end this right now, and to me this is the only fair way to do it, with the fewest casualties. He stays in business and people get their money back. Sure, voucher holders didn't get their deal of the century but better you have your $100 back in your pocket rather than have to continue fighting/waiting for that $400 of meat that will never arrive.

He could claim bankruptcy and leave the group deal sites high and dry but if he's opening across the street with a new shop clearly the assets in that new store should be seized. The deal companies would be able to sue him and seize assets, and any lawyer could easily catch him trying to hide assets through other people. If he's a citizen of a foreign country, he could literally take the money and run never to return to these shores... surprised he hasn't gone that route yet!

[Love2Snack]

He can easily go bankrupt and open the store across the road as a new company. It happens every day.

Just would be harder for him to get credit, however he probably has a wad of cash now to pay suppliers COD.

(I don't want to give him any ideas...)

[jerrysiz]

I know they are having issues with supply and can't really serve all voucher holders; but if they truly owned up to this and came up with a reasonable way to deal with it it wouldn't be so bad.


If he is unable to service every customer (voucher or not) equally, IMHO the right thing to do is to cancel all vouchers and instruct the group deal sites to refund all unredeemed vouchers. That and maybe as a goodwill gesture, every refund comes with a reasonable coupon (maybe 15% off your first order) to try to get you in the store, which was the goal all along but failed. He needs to end this right now, and to me this is the only fair way to do it, with the fewest casualties. He stays in business and people get their money back.

Yes, this is the type of thing a respectable man would do if he wanted to salvage some modicum of goodwill from his remaining customers and move on. So, of course, it will never happen here. Marlon seems more interested in blaming the voucher buyers for his own greedy mistakes than in trying to make things right.

[kator]

If he is unable to service every customer (voucher or not) equally, IMHO the right thing to do is to cancel all vouchers and instruct the group deal sites to refund all unredeemed vouchers. That and maybe as a goodwill gesture, every refund comes with a reasonable coupon (maybe 15% off your first order) to try to get you in the store, which was the goal all along but failed. He needs to end this right now, and to me this is the only fair way to do it, with the fewest casualties. He stays in business and people get their money back. Sure, voucher holders didn't get their deal of the century but better you have your $100 back in your pocket rather than have to continue fighting/waiting for that $400 of meat that will never arrive.

He could claim bankruptcy and leave the group deal sites high and dry but if he's opening across the street with a new shop clearly the assets in that new store should be seized. The deal companies would be able to sue him and seize assets, and any lawyer could easily catch him trying to hide assets through other people. If he's a citizen of a foreign country, he could literally take the money and run never to return to these shores... surprised he hasn't gone that route yet!

good call. but really has he ever shown any interested in 'the right thing to do'?

[kator]

Sean O'Shea.... I know you will read this at some point.

You failed, YET AGAIN, to get the story right. Either you are duplicitous in this "Butchers" farce (which I doubt), or you are a fool who was easily duped by comically overflowing trays of meat.

i just watched it - what did you not like about it? i thought it was pretty good. except for the fact they didnt mention their first story on it which basically endorsed the store

[cool canuck]

Mon May 30 - emailed Webpiggy asking for refund
Wed Jun 1 - received email asking me to call in to "discuss the matter with you personally"
Thurs Jun 2 - I emailed back saying there was nothing to discuss especially in light of the Toronto Star story and the upcoming CBC story, I simply wanted a refund
Tues Jun 7 - 2nd demand for refund as there was no response to my earlier email

Next step, credit card company and competition bureau for both Webpiggy and Butchers.

To those that were negotiated out of a refund, did you get your product?

[jerrysiz]

Mon May 30 - emailed Webpiggy asking for refund
Wed Jun 1 - received email asking me to call in to "discuss the matter with you personally"
Thurs Jun 2 - I emailed back saying there was nothing to discuss especially in light of the Toronto Star story and the upcoming CBC story, I simply wanted a refund
Tues Jun 7 - 2nd demand for refund as there was no response to my earlier email

Next step, credit card company and competition bureau for both Webpiggy and Butchers.

To those that were negotiated out of a refund, did you get your product?

I'm curious to know the answer to this as well. We had the same experience as you, but did call them to discuss. They said they were "trying to make things work" with the Butchers and if we emailed them (webpiggy) our order, they would make sure we got it. We explained that after three attempts to order that did not work, plus numerous tries to redeem at the store, we no longer had any confidence in the Butchers' ability to deliver their product. The webpiggy rep promised us that if the order placed through them did not come or was not correct "of course" they would process the refund. So we emailed in the order to webpiggy over the weekend, asking them to email back to confirm...so far nothing. I am really curious to see when the butcher screws up this delivery order (and I fully believe they will) whether webpiggy will live up to its promise. Either way, you can be sure I'll be posting about it here. ;)

So, did anyone get a refund from webpiggy after an unsuccessful delivery ordered through them, or (unlikely as it may seem) did anyone actually recieve an order from the butchers that was placed through webpiggy?

[CSAgent]

It's up now:
http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1972834249

Listening to this now.

Great stuff!

Marlon looks sketchy in that GlobalNews video. Heh...

[YLSF]

So, did anyone get a refund from webpiggy after an unsuccessful delivery ordered through them, or (unlikely as it may seem) did anyone actually recieve an order from the butchers that was placed through webpiggy?


Someone posted about this in the Chowhound thread. Basically was promised the same thing from Webpiggy and he waited around all day this past Sunday and nothing was delivered. Webpiggy agreed to refund the next day. I would keep pushing for a full refund citing the many examples and commenting that GlobalTV said they would process the refund. If not, contact Sean at Global and tell him he needs to fact check. I am a firm believer that nothing good with come out of The Butchers anymore. Countless reports of people getting meat that was tough/low quality etc if they ever do manage to get it.

EDIT: BTW, I am curious if anyone bought discount meat coupons from other companies. Like, there is a place called Medium Rare in Etobicoke that was offered on another deal site ($16 for $40), much more reasonable discount. I bought a voucher before all of this Butchers fiasco but haven't used it yet.

[NoFrillBill]

EDIT: BTW, I am curious if anyone bought discount meat coupons from other companies. Like, there is a place called Medium Rare in Etobicoke that was offered on another deal site ($16 for $40), much more reasonable discount. I bought a. voucher before all of this Butchers fiasco but haven't used it yet.

While I did not participate in any of the The Butchers groups buys (thank heavens) I have been following the story closely. Based on that, the difference between The Butchers and Medium Rare is night and day. No stock issues whatsoever and if they don't have what you want, just ask! They will be more than happy to accomodate your request. Go and used your voucher you won't be disappointed. Best group buy I've purchased!!!

[kingkelly]

Mon May 30 - emailed Webpiggy asking for refund
Wed Jun 1 - received email asking me to call in to "discuss the matter with you personally"
Thurs Jun 2 - I emailed back saying there was nothing to discuss especially in light of the Toronto Star story and the upcoming CBC story, I simply wanted a refund
Tues Jun 7 - 2nd demand for refund as there was no response to my earlier email

Next step, credit card company and competition bureau for both Webpiggy and Butchers.

To those that were negotiated out of a refund, did you get your product?

Today was the day that i was supposed to pick up my order.

It was placed through WebPiggy after i called asking for a refund, and they said they are taking care of orders now. Even got a confirmation email last week from the butchers confirming pickup today at 6. Came by at 6, marlon scratched his organic hair and said he has no record of it. And then went on about having a shortage of chickens. i jsut ordered a bunch of chicken thighs, assuming theyd have no problem with even that.

i just laughed and left and left an angry message for Harold from WebPiggy outside the store. I know its not WebPiggys fault, but they really shouldnt be trying to take care of orders for the butchers. Just refund everyone and call it a day.

[callitasicit]

Someone posted about this in the Chowhound thread. Basically was promised the same thing from Webpiggy and he waited around all day this past Sunday and nothing was delivered. Webpiggy agreed to refund the next day. I would keep pushing for a full refund citing the many examples and commenting that GlobalTV said they would process the refund. If not, contact Sean at Global and tell him he needs to fact check. I am a firm believer that nothing good with come out of The Butchers anymore. Countless reports of people getting meat that was tough/low quality etc if they ever do manage to get it.

EDIT: BTW, I am curious if anyone bought discount meat coupons from other companies. Like, there is a place called Medium Rare in Etobicoke that was offered on another deal site ($16 for $40), much more reasonable discount. I bought a voucher before all of this Butchers fiasco but haven't used it yet.

LOL, I was that person. After talking to Harold (Webpiggy) I came to the conclusion it wasn't his fault at all, it was all on Marlon (big surprise!) He has since promised to refund my account and gave me a $20 credit for good faith. I do believe he will credit all requested refunds.

[callitasicit]

Today was the day that i was supposed to pick up my order.

It was placed through WebPiggy after i called asking for a refund, and they said they are taking care of orders now. Even got a confirmation email last week from the butchers confirming pickup today at 6. Came by at 6, marlon scratched his organic hair and said he has no record of it. And then went on about having a shortage of chickens. i jsut ordered a bunch of chicken thighs, assuming theyd have no problem with even that.

i just laughed and left and left an angry message for Harold from WebPiggy outside the store. I know its not WebPiggys fault, but they really shouldnt be trying to take care of orders for the butchers. Just refund everyone and call it a day.

This Marlon is such a creep! I hope he gets what's coming to him. I was supposed to get my delivery from the Butchers through Webpiggy and as I stated in numerous emails waited all Sunday and no order materialized! Harold will credit your account eventually, he seems like a nice guy but honestly he should not be trying to help The Butchers out and acting as the middle man.

[callitasicit]

Interview with Marlon Pather in Postcity.com

http://www.postcity.com/Eat-Shop-Do/Eat/June-2011/Marlon-Pather-responds-to-The-Butchers-extreme-couponing-debacle/

[Rehan]

http://www.postcity.com/Eat-Shop-Do/Eat/June-2011/Marlon-Pather-responds-to-The-Butchers-extreme-couponing-debacle/ (http://www.postcity.com/Eat-Shop-Do/Eat/June-2011/Marlon-Pather-responds-to-The-Butchers-extreme-couponing-debacle/)
Interesting bunch of responses from Marlon.

I think it'll be less than 1 month until everything unravels.

Edit: Oops, just noticed that callitasicit posted the link while I was making my post. :)

[buddhababy]

Didn't the last few deals have no expiration date?

[kator]

Interview with Marlon Pather in Postcity.com

http://www.postcity.com/Eat-Shop-Do/Eat/June-2011/Marlon-Pather-responds-to-The-Butchers-extreme-couponing-debacle/

"But the deal caused so much attention throughout the city and created a lot of talk about how we couldn't handle the deal and that we were going out of business. Well, when that hit the Internet, it drove everyone to use the voucher right away."

Yes, that's what it was. It had nothing to with the fact the sold so many and people wanted to use them.

I don't know where he got this idea from that everyone was gonna wait months and months to use their coupons.

[Cas77]

Interview with Marlon Pather in Postcity.com

http://www.postcity.com/Eat-Shop-Do/Eat/June-2011/Marlon-Pather-responds-to-The-Butchers-extreme-couponing-debacle/

I think the part about renovations in July means the voucher redemption will not be allowed from July 1st to July 31st. He's just preparing everyone... :lol:

[Beachdown]

EDIT: BTW, I am curious if anyone bought discount meat coupons from other companies. Like, there is a place called Medium Rare in Etobicoke that was offered on another deal site ($16 for $40), much more reasonable discount. I bought a voucher before all of this Butchers fiasco but haven't used it yet.

I bought coupons for Aubrey's ($55 for $175) in Ottawa, from Kahoot. My brother redeemed his, and while he had no problems, he did say the store was packed (both voucher and cash customers).Got an email from Kahoot about two weeks later asking that customers phone in their orders on Tuesday for pick up later that week. Basically said that the volume was too much for a small store to be able to stock appropriate quanitities of meat. (The voucher stated it was "strongly recommended" that people pre-order and that the voucher was for meat only.)

Very well done, I'd say. Terms and conditions are pretty clear and I haven't heard about any problems redeeming vouchers.

[kingkelly]

From that post interview:

"but I'd like to open them both together, when my customers come back from their cottages in August … with a new coupon rule, maybe Mondays I'll allow it." :facepalm:

So hes going to do 'renovations' in july, and is now saying he wants to reopen in august... Dudes totally flaking, more closing the store, going to reduce the coupon hours to one day a week. How is this not illegal? How are the coupon companies not stepping in and saying, these arent the rules you signed up to ?? Illegal means nothing unless somebody sues this place??

I also like how he dodged the sausage question, and was just saying everybody likes them. Clearly not organic...:facepalm:

[YLSF]

I would think July would be the busiest time of year for a butcher! BBQ season. Ha, he is dumber than I thought.

BTW, a bump up of an old issue. For anyone that has redeemed vouchers or part of vouchers. Did you ever see anything entered into a cash or were things calculated on a calculator? I didn't get a receipt and I know a few people also didn't get one for sure. Feel free to contact the CRA as the more cases they get on it the more likely they are to investigate.

Funny how Marlon is so mad that he has to meet the health regulations! He is blaming customers for "reporting" on him. If he didn't nothing wrong he wouldn't have a problem. This guy is making me mad now with his comments. He really should do what others have said and "cancel" the deal by returning all of the money to the deal companies and let the deal companies refund all of the money. Of course that isn't going to happen because he spent the money already.

[pakmode]

I thought I'd rehash an older post of mine regarding the redemption hours.

Originally it was 60 hours/week, from M-F 8AM-8PM.

Now it's only 6 hours/week.

Which is brutal - a 90% decrease in available hours for voucher redemption.





Has anybody else noticed how sneakily they've changed their hours??

Their hours were 8AM-8PM to accomodate vouchers on Weekdays only.
That's 12 hours/day @ 5 days = 60 Total Operating Hours to redeem Vouchers.

Looking below at their new store hours:

STORE HOURS
Monday: CLOSED
Tuesday-Friday 10am - 11:30am
Closed from 11:30am-1:30pm**
Open Again from 1- 6pm
Saturday: 10am-6pm
Sunday: 11am-5pm


Monday they are closed completely (-12 hours).
They now open at 10AM instead of 8AM (-2 hours/day).
They close again for 2 hours from 11:30AM-1:30PM (-2 hours/day).
And the store closes earlier; down from 8pm to 6pm (-2 hours/day).

That means in total they are closed Monday (-12 hours) and shaved 6 hours/day from Tuesday to Friday (-24 hours).
They have reduced the Total Operating Hours to Redeem Vouchers from 60 down to 36. This is a 40% reduction and is absolutely preposterous.

Correct my math if I'm wrong, but Voucher holders now have only 36 hours during the weekdays to redeem these certificates!

Of course this doesn't even include the fact that older Voucher holders were legally eligible to redeem on the Weekends, but the Botchers arbitrarily changed the contract terms.

[Love2Snack]

Well renovations just means he is going to close the store whenever he wants and try to come up with a legitimate excuse. Changing a lightbulb will take 3 weeks or something. I doubt he will re-open. It will be a permanent state of renovation.

It still doesn't make sense to have a second store across the road unless you are planning on closing the first one. Fish or no fish

[canadiankorean]

Interview with Marlon Pather in Postcity.com

http://www.postcity.com/Eat-Shop-Do/Eat/June-2011/Marlon-Pather-responds-to-The-Butchers-extreme-couponing-debacle/

I want more ppl to post their experiences.

[mic2074]

sorry to all those that bought in on this deal. I think this is a great example of buyer beware - and that if a deal is too good to be true, then it is just that.

With all these group buying sites popping up everyday - I would advise against buying any extrordinarily cheap deals. These companies would probably like to stay in business, and help you as much they can, but the fact remains - most are very small operations with limited resources to help you should the vendor default, etc.

They offer great deals - and some are irresistible... but one should question certain deals, such as this, where you get product for 75% off. This is unrealistic for a product that the vendor has to stock. The $100 you pay, the vendor only gets about $50, the group buy site would get $50. Thus, unrealistic to assume the vendor would sell you a product at only 12.5% - that's well below his costs... and even if the vendor assumes this loss, as advertising - it's not realistic for a mom n' pop store to shell out this much for advertising. This is not a deal for some service that is just idle labour they would have on hand, and just selling off some deal to fill the time, etc.

While I feel sorry for those that are potentially getting ripped off from this deal... some may hate me for saying this, but, I just think that the owner just got in over his head with this deal - not realizing the powerful impact of the internet. I know he seems like an arse on interviews, etc, but you have to feel for the guy at some point, that his business is now ruined. Running a mom n' pop operation is not easy - long working hours, so, at least you know the guy is a hard working man. He might seem like an arse, as he's just panicking to savage his business.

that's my rant of the day.

[callitasicit]

sorry to all those that bought in on this deal. I think this is a great example of buyer beware - and that if a deal is too good to be true, then it is just that.

With all these group buying sites popping up everyday - I would advise against buying any extrordinarily cheap deals. These companies would probably like to stay in business, and help you as much they can, but the fact remains - most are very small operations with limited resources to help you should the vendor default, etc.

They offer great deals - and some are irresistible... but one should question certain deals, such as this, where you get product for 75% off. This is unrealistic for a product that the vendor has to stock. The $100 you pay, the vendor only gets about $50, the group buy site would get $50. Thus, unrealistic to assume the vendor would sell you a product at only 12.5% - that's well below his costs... and even if the vendor assumes this loss, as advertising - it's not realistic for a mom n' pop store to shell out this much for advertising. This is not a deal for some service that is just idle labour they would have on hand, and just selling off some deal to fill the time, etc.

While I feel sorry for those that are potentially getting ripped off from this deal... some may hate me for saying this, but, I just think that the owner just got in over his head with this deal - not realizing the powerful impact of the internet. I know he seems like an arse on interviews, etc, but you have to feel for the guy at some point, that his business is now ruined. Running a mom n' pop operation is not easy - long working hours, so, at least you know the guy is a hard working man. He might seem like an arse, as he's just panicking to savage his business.

that's my rant of the day.

Sounds like a good friend or maybe Marlon himself lol!

"I know he seems like an arse." He has handled the situation like an arse and he doesn't know the meaning of the words accountability or humility!

[mic2074]

Sounds like a good friend or maybe Marlon himself lol!

"I know he seems like an arse." He has handled the situation like an arse and he doesn't know the meaning of the words accountability or humility!


yup - he promised me a steak for my comments :lol:

[callitasicit]

yup - he promised me a steak for my comments :lol:

I was somewhat kidding:) Can't trust anyone these days;)

[mic2074]

I was somewhat kidding:) Can't trust anyone these days;)


oh yeah, I know... I was just kidding too.

[Thedbs]

Has anyone contacted a lawyer yet about this swindler?

[mic2074]

Second rant of the day... last one, I promise. Don't know why I'm ranting - I didn't even buy the voucher, and it's not that time of the month :lol: I'm not even a women.

I think Webpiggy is to bare partial and equal blame for this, as it is likely they initiated the contact of the vendor for this deal. I'll bet that, rather than trying to understand the owners needs and abilities - they simply went in, and try to close the best deal they can. If they even try to understand the business, and how much impact such as deal can affect this business they should have decline it.

Let's do some quick calculations - assuming the owner sells meat at 100% mark-up, then that $400 of meat that you get will cost them $200... he only got $50 for it (assuming webpiggy takes $50), then he's out $150 per voucher. Not sure how many sold, some say over 1000. So, just assume 1000 - then the business is out $150,000. That's probably majority of their annual gross revenue.... and probably more than their net annual income - that would effectively put the shop out of business if there's no additional capital infusion.

So, if webpiggy took the time to do a simple calc or try to see if such deal is in the best interest of all parties involved, all this could have been avoided. This is a wider spread issue as more and more of these group buy sites go up, trying to out do the competitor for deals.

[Love2Snack]

Second rant of the day... last one, I promise. Don't know why I'm ranting - I didn't even buy the voucher, and it's not that time of the month :lol: I'm not even a women.

I think Webpiggy is to bare partial and equal blame for this, as it is likely they initiated the contact of the vendor for this deal. I'll bet that, rather than trying to understand the owners needs and abilities - they simply went in, and try to close the best deal they can. If they even try to understand the business, and how much impact such as deal can affect this business they should have decline it.

Let's do some quick calculations - assuming the owner sells meat at 100% mark-up, then that $400 of meat that you get will cost them $200... he only got $50 for it (assuming webpiggy takes $50), then he's out $150 per voucher. Not sure how many sold, some say over 1000. So, just assume 1000 - then the business is out $150,000. That's probably majority of their annual gross revenue.... and probably more than their net annual income - that would effectively put the shop out of business if there's no additional capital infusion.

So, if webpiggy took the time to do a simple calc or try to see if such deal is in the best interest of all parties involved, all this could have been avoided. This is a wider spread issue as more and more of these group buy sites go up, trying to out do the competitor for deals.


In one of Marlon's many quotes and interviews he does mention that this is a lost leader for him and he was fully aware of the economic impact it would have for him(I think it was in the Toronto Star). He believed that 20% of people would not redeem and that many others would only part redeem or would spend extra money outside of their coupon. This was his business decision/gamble and he should be held 100% accountable for it.

You can't blame everything on other people, sometimes you have to take responsibility for your own choices and I don't see him doing that. Webpiggy just saw an opportunity to make a quick buck on a popular deal.
What I would really like to see is a copy of a group coupon agreement from any of these sites to see exactly what gets promised and delivered, or is it just a handshake in a dark alley?

[kator]

sorry to all those that bought in on this deal. I think this is a great example of buyer beware - and that if a deal is too good to be true, then it is just that.

With all these group buying sites popping up everyday - I would advise against buying any extrordinarily cheap deals. These companies would probably like to stay in business, and help you as much they can, but the fact remains - most are very small operations with limited resources to help you should the vendor default, etc.

They offer great deals - and some are irresistible... but one should question certain deals, such as this, where you get product for 75% off. This is unrealistic for a product that the vendor has to stock. The $100 you pay, the vendor only gets about $50, the group buy site would get $50. Thus, unrealistic to assume the vendor would sell you a product at only 12.5% - that's well below his costs... and even if the vendor assumes this loss, as advertising - it's not realistic for a mom n' pop store to shell out this much for advertising. This is not a deal for some service that is just idle labour they would have on hand, and just selling off some deal to fill the time, etc.

While I feel sorry for those that are potentially getting ripped off from this deal... some may hate me for saying this, but, I just think that the owner just got in over his head with this deal - not realizing the powerful impact of the internet. I know he seems like an arse on interviews, etc, but you have to feel for the guy at some point, that his business is now ruined. Running a mom n' pop operation is not easy - long working hours, so, at least you know the guy is a hard working man. He might seem like an arse, as he's just panicking to savage his business.

that's my rant of the day.

i would buy that if he ran one deal, like everyone else. but instead he ran like 10 deals. and he didnt put a limit on how many customers could buy. and he offered increasingly insane discounts, on top of the up to 50% he had to give to the coupon companies.

so he's either a complete moron who has somehow managed to run a successful business for 10 years. or, he knows perfectly well what's going on. i think you can guess which option my money is on.

ps don't forget that he's passing off factory farmed meat as "100% organic" or naturally raised (depending which flyer you read). you pay the price of organic, but get almost the same stuff you get at the supermarket that costs way less. i know this because i called his suppliers myself. that's not 'getting in over your head.' its intentional false advertising.

[kator]

Second rant of the day... last one, I promise. Don't know why I'm ranting - I didn't even buy the voucher, and it's not that time of the month :lol: I'm not even a women.

I think Webpiggy is to bare partial and equal blame for this, as it is likely they initiated the contact of the vendor for this deal. I'll bet that, rather than trying to understand the owners needs and abilities - they simply went in, and try to close the best deal they can. If they even try to understand the business, and how much impact such as deal can affect this business they should have decline it.

Let's do some quick calculations - assuming the owner sells meat at 100% mark-up, then that $400 of meat that you get will cost them $200... he only got $50 for it (assuming webpiggy takes $50), then he's out $150 per voucher. Not sure how many sold, some say over 1000. So, just assume 1000 - then the business is out $150,000. That's probably majority of their annual gross revenue.... and probably more than their net annual income - that would effectively put the shop out of business if there's no additional capital infusion.

So, if webpiggy took the time to do a simple calc or try to see if such deal is in the best interest of all parties involved, all this could have been avoided. This is a wider spread issue as more and more of these group buy sites go up, trying to out do the competitor for deals.


how is webpiggy to blame more than any of the other companies that did deals with him, like dealfind or buytopia?

[mic2074]

how is webpiggy to blame more than any of the other companies that did deals with him, like dealfind or buytopia?

oh, my apologies - seems like my rant, and somewhat siding with the owner was misplaced. I was only aware of the webpiggy deal, and had not known about other deals (I didn't read all 49 pages of this thread). I still stand firm that all these group buy sites are popping up way too fast and easy, and not taking full accountibility to all parties. By next year, probably only a handful will survive. These days I only buy from a few of the bigger ones.

[callitasicit]

how is webpiggy to blame more than any of the other companies that did deals with him, like dealfind or buytopia?

You are absolutely dead on with that point! Btw, Webpiggy (Harold) doesn't avoid emails or phone calls like The Butchers (Marlon)

[MrDisco]

He might seem like an arse, as he's just panicking to savage his business.


I'ld say he's doing a fine job of savaging his business and reputation...

[Bookpreviews]

Has anyone contacted a lawyer yet about this swindler?

I doubt most people on RFD want to pay at least $50-200 an hour for a consultation on legal advice.
most people on rfd want deals, not legal expenses.

maybe someone can represent themselves in small claims?
not sure as I have never tried that.
for legal things it is not entirely hard to represent yourself, but extremely time consuming (have had to do it a few times due to lack of funds....very very time consuming actually).

[beonice]

I doubt most people on RFD want to pay at least $50-200 an hour for a consultation on legal advice.
most people on rfd want deals, not legal expenses.

maybe someone can represent themselves in small claims?
not sure as I have never tried that.
for legal things it is not entirely hard to represent yourself, but extremely time consuming (have had to do it a few times due to lack of funds....very very time consuming actually).

Hmm. I was wondering why, if 10,000 vouchers were sold (as per Marlon's interview somewhere), the customers haven't yet banded together to sue him in a class-action suit. How many people does one need for a class action lawsuit, anyway? I know it's not a small number, but 10,000 vouchers presumably means at least 1,000 customers, even if each bought 10 vouchers!

Yes, I am one of those customers. No, I didn't buy 10 vouchers. :D Used half of one dealFind voucher in the early days of the deal, tried several more times to redeem the other half, finally gave up. DealFind refunded me the full cost of the voucher once I'd described in excruciating detail my attempts to use the other half of that voucher ...

Of course, if customers have already received refunds, maybe that class action lawsuit won't fly.

[Thedbs]

I doubt most people on RFD want to pay at least $50-200 an hour for a consultation on legal advice.
most people on rfd want deals, not legal expenses.

maybe someone can represent themselves in small claims?
not sure as I have never tried that.
for legal things it is not entirely hard to represent yourself, but extremely time consuming (have had to do it a few times due to lack of funds....very very time consuming actually).

Luckily my sister is a lawyer. Unfortunately, she practices in LA and main deals with copyright. With so many vouchers purchased I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lawyer in the bunch or at least someone related to one.

[Cheap]

Let's do some quick calculations - assuming the owner sells meat at 100% mark-up, then that $400 of meat that you get will cost them $200... he only got $50 for it (assuming webpiggy takes $50), then he's out $150 per voucher. Not sure how many sold, some say over 1000. So, just assume 1000 - then the business is out $150,000. That's probably majority of their annual gross revenue.... and probably more than their net annual income - that would effectively put the shop out of business if there's no additional capital infusion.



If only it were that simple. The problem is that it wasn't 1000 vouchers that were sold, it was around 25,000 (21,000 according to a quote from Marlon in the Post city.com interview. 25790 according to a post from Upset Customer on Trueler.) The Butchers has to supply millions of dollars worth of meat, so if you thought they would go out of business over $150,000.....

[Rehan]

I doubt most people on RFD want to pay at least $50-200 an hour for a consultation on legal advice.
most people on rfd want deals, not legal expenses.

maybe someone can represent themselves in small claims?
not sure as I have never tried that.
for legal things it is not entirely hard to represent yourself, but extremely time consuming (have had to do it a few times due to lack of funds....very very time consuming actually). What would be the point? The money has already been spent. People can't even get meat from the guy...imagine trying to collect a small claims court judgement!

[mic2074]

If only it were that simple. The problem is that it wasn't 1000 vouchers that were sold, it was around 25,000 (21,000 according to a quote from Marlon in the Post city.com interview. 25790 according to a post from Upset Customer on Trueler.) The Butchers has to supply millions of dollars worth of meat, so if you thought they would go out of business over $150,000.....

holy crap - okay, I really think those group buy site that facilitated these deals should be held responsible, as well - they're like the person that gives the gun to a murderer. How the hell did they think a mom n' pop shop would be able to handle all this. It is totally irresponsible of the group buy sites. The owner is not the only one that has pocketed all your money - those group buy sites pocket 50% (from what I understand) of what you've paid them.

[callitasicit]

holy crap - okay, I really think those group buy site that facilitated these deals should be held responsible, as well - they're like the person that gives the gun to a murderer. How the hell did they think a mom n' pop shop would be able to handle all this. It is totally irresponsible of the group buy sites. The owner is not the only one that has pocketed all your money - those group buy sites pocket 50% (from what I understand) of what you've paid them.

I cannot believe that anyone still is holding onto their voucher coupons. Webpiggy refunded my account after initially asking me to give The Butchers one more chance, I think all the others will refund as well. Sorry Mic, I think it is time to stop defending your boy, Marlon. You will be hard pressed to find anyone that shares your opinion on this subject.

[mic2074]

I cannot believe that anyone still is holding onto their voucher coupons. Webpiggy refunded my account after initially asking me to give The Butchers one more chance, I think all the others will refund as well. Sorry Mic, I think it is time to stop defending your boy, Marlon. You will be hard pressed to find anyone that shares your opinion on this subject.

yeah, not defending that arse, marlon, anymore... just still think all those group buy sites are to blame, as well. All these sites just spring up overnight cause they're easy to set up and very lucrative - and in the heat of competition and making $$$, they don't always offer deals that are in the best interest of all parties, and it's the consumer that ultimately bares the loss in the end.

[Cheap]

The owner is not the only one that has pocketed all your money - those group buy sites pocket 50% (from what I understand) of what you've paid them.

According to Marlon in the CBC interview, when people say to him that he made 1.5 million or 2 million, his answer is "Where is this money? I'd like to know. I didn't get a cheque for $2 million."

Of course he didn't get one cheque for $2 million but surely he has received cheques totalling hundreds of thousands of dollars by now, how could he not know where it is. My guess is that the revenue generated from the voucher sales was between 1.5 - 2 million, the same numbers Marlon mentions coming up in discussion. He did say that he was able to negotiate a better rate than 50% commission with the group buy websites, but no specifics on amounts or how many of the deals he was able to do this. So he should have made at least $800,000 but possibly it was over a million.

[callitasicit]

yeah, not defending that arse, marlon, anymore... just still think all those group buy sites are to blame, as well. All these sites just spring up overnight cause they're easy to set up and very lucrative - and in the heat of competition and making $$$, they don't always offer deals that are in the best interest of all parties, and it's the consumer that ultimately bares the loss in the end.

Good to hear but the Group Sites bear most of the loss because if The Butchers decides to go out of business, these site are on the hook for the loss. Bottom line, no one put a gun to this guy's head. I suspected he was motivated by greed and he is paying the price now. His reputation is in the toilet now and it is due to his actions up to this point. He has a Fish Store across the street that he is waiting to open, he needed the capital to start off this new venture. He obviously got it from all these vouchers deals and partnerships from the Group Sites.

What really makes me upset though is how the customer has been treated up to this point. I would understand if they would have told someone that it might take a while to get to their order but don't tell them to pick up their order and then tell the person they don't have a record of the order! The amount of time people have wasted trying to get in touch with Marlon and the Staff, restrictions to people that carry the voucher coupon, limited times twice a week for a few hours to try to get their meat. We, as voucher coupon holders are treated like second class citizens! This man has yet to apologize for the mess he has created and he's had ample opportunity to do so. I have ZERO sympathy for this guy!

[mic2074]

Good to hear but the Group Sites bear most of the loss because if The Butchers decides to go out of business, these site are on the hook for the loss. Bottom line, no one put a gun to this guy's head. I suspected he was motivated by greed and he is paying the price now. His reputation is in the toilet now and it is due to his actions up to this point. He has a Fish Store across the street that he is waiting to open, he needed the capital to start off this new venture. He obviously got it from all these vouchers deals and partnerships from the Group Sites.

What really makes me upset though is how the customer has been treated up to this point. I would understand if they would have told someone that it might take a while to get to their order but don't tell them to pick up their order and then tell the person they don't have a record of the order! The amount of time people have wasted trying to get in touch with Marlon and the Staff, restrictions to people that carry the voucher coupon, limited times twice a week for a few hours to try to get their meat. We, as voucher coupon holders are treated like second class citizens! This man has yet to apologize for the mess he has created and he's had ample opportunity to do so. I have ZERO sympathy for this guy!

I understand where you're coming from, and why you're upset. When you said no one put a gun to marlon's head for the deal... the same can be said about the group buy sites - no one force them to accept and facilitate the deals. They, too, were driven by greed. I don't think all those sites are going to refund all your $$$ - I could be wrong, but I don't see how they would be able to, as they are small operations. Let say each site sold 7,500 vouchers - assuming they only pocketed 40%, as poster above said Marlon negotiate a better rate, they pocketed $300k. If Marlon ultimately goes out of business, or that the sites can't recover the $ from Marlon to refund to you, then they are on the hook for $450k. Then, they too, will be out of business, unless they have other great deals that are generating enough cash flow to keep them up float.

So, what happens if they go out of business - the consumer does a claim through visa purchase protection... in this case, everyone is a loser, as the cost of the claims ultimately ends up in increase visa/cc rates or other forms of fee increase.

What I'm saying is that these group buys sites are still to take equal blame for facilitating a such a deal.

[ileizero]

The Butchers on CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1972834249

[00cp]

The Butchers on CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1972834249


I take it you're not following this thread too closely

[kator]

holy crap - okay, I really think those group buy site that facilitated these deals should be held responsible, as well - they're like the person that gives the gun to a murderer. How the hell did they think a mom n' pop shop would be able to handle all this. It is totally irresponsible of the group buy sites. The owner is not the only one that has pocketed all your money - those group buy sites pocket 50% (from what I understand) of what you've paid them.

well he could've handled 1, not 10. it is his fault he chose to do 10, not the fault of the deal companies. the way he tells it, he signed contracts with them all at once. so, how could the companies know other companies were going to do deals with him?

if you can figure out a mom n pop shop can't handle that, marlon can too.

[mic2074]

well he could've handled 1, not 10. it is his fault he chose to do 10, not the fault of the deal companies. the way he tells it, he signed contracts with them all at once. so, how could the companies know other companies were going to do deals with him?

if you can figure out a mom n pop shop can't handle that, marlon can too.

The group buy sites don't need to know the grand scale of it all. Individually, they should know how well something like this should sell, especially when it's $100 for $400 of daily consumer goods - they know, they're going to get lots of sale. If they didn't anticipate that they will sell hundreds, even 1000 of these, then they don't know this business, and shouldn't be in business. They should question whether this type of deal is feasible for a small shop. As I've calculated in previous post, at 1000 voucher sold, the shop stands to lose $150k. A responsible business would think that this is not feasible for a small shop to handle, and decline to facilitate the deal.

In the end, the owner was greedy, and so are the group buy sites that facilitated these deals.

[kingkelly]

For sure, the group buy sites were after quick money just like The Butchers.
Im definitely not buying anything from webpiggy or buytopia again. I jsut dont see this kind of thing ever happening with a site liek Groupon, or at least they never would have gone for it.

[pakmode]

well he could've handled 1, not 10. it is his fault he chose to do 10, not the fault of the deal companies. the way he tells it, he signed contracts with them all at once. so, how could the companies know other companies were going to do deals with him?

if you can figure out a mom n pop shop can't handle that, marlon can too.

I do believe the deal companies had a hand in this though. Greed was the motivating factor for ALL involved. Deal companies had $ signs in their eyes the same way consumers and Marlon did.

I'm not likening this to the 2008 Financial Crisis at all, but these deal companies saw an easy way to make a quick buck - no different then Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Countrywide, or Merrill Lynch saw a way to make a quick buck by repackaging derivatives of subprime mortgages.

In the end it was the idiot home owners fault for buying a $600,000 home with little money down on a $40,000/year salary - but that certainly didn't stop mortgage brokers, banks and lenders from bending the rules to make as much money as possible before the house of cards came tumbling down.

This situation hasn't played out like this yet, but if there are people dumb enough to still have these vouchers in a month and Marlon folds, I'm sorry, but you won't get any sympathy from me.

Marlon got greedy by increasing by increasing the size of the voucher from $25 for $45 to $99 for $400. He could have kept the same $25 term on all the deals, but he got greedy.
You know who else got greedy?
The 6000 people who bought the $99 voucher. The 17000 people who bought the $55 voucher. And let's not forget the greedy greedy deal sites who were all too happy to be processing and transacting millions of dollars of vouchers sold.

[pakmode]

The group buy sites don't need to know the grand scale of it all. Individually, they should know how well something like this should sell, especially when it's $100 for $400 of daily consumer goods - they know, they're going to get lots of sale. If they didn't anticipate that they will sell hundreds, even 1000 of these, then they don't know this business, and shouldn't be in business. They should question whether this type of deal is feasible for a small shop. As I've calculated in previous post, at 1000 voucher sold, the shop stands to lose $150k. A responsible business would think that this is not feasible for a small shop to handle, and decline to facilitate the deal.

In the end, the owner was greedy, and so are the group buy sites that facilitated these deals.

Hey Mic2074,

I've read through your posts and while they do make sense, you've calculated using arbitrary numbers. This discussion has been ongoing for months, and there are more accurate numbers in previous posts.

Keep in mind:

1. Marlon has negotiated a lower percentage fee for the group sites. There was no way he was going to give a middleman 50%, 40% or even 30% on some of these deals that individually grossed $600,000 to ~$1,000,000.

2. The prices on his products have continually risen since his first group deal in December. There were cries of Zimbabwean-inflation rates at one point.

3. There have been substantiated allegations that his meat quality has gone down and that he is using cheaper quality meat.

Basically he's raised the selling price of his products dramatically, lowered the supply cost of his products substantially and this would be his only chance to make it out of this financial mess.


For all those who have just joined this thread, please read from earlier posts - March would probably be best - if you want to have a better understanding of what's going on.

[bullet]

wow the lineup is crazy!

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5072/20110609184101.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/20110609184101.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Rehan]

In the end, the owner was greedy, and so are the group buy sites that facilitated these deals. And so were the buyers of the vouchers. The first bunch have an excuse perhaps...but after several hundred vouchers were sold, anyone buying after that was taking a risk on an obviously questionable deal.

[BillySue]

I'd like to know if anyone has received a refund from Buytopia.

I spoke with their rep. this afternoon (after sending an ignored email last week, calling a few days ago and being told to wait for their call this afternoon - when I called THEM again this afternoon, they said they had no record of my earlier call or their instructions to me to wait for their call today).

The rep. refused to give me a refund, despite my numerous unsuccessful attempts to redeem my coupon and my concern that it will never be redeemed. After reciting various rebuttals to every issue that has been raised on the forums - most of which I didn't mention - he only entertained the idea of being the middleman to get my order. I suspect that won't work and it will just lead to more frustration.

This is on the buytopia website: "Our Promise to You - Your satisfaction is our number one concern. If ever you feel unhappy about your experience with buytopia.ca or any of our featured businesses, we want to hear about it right away! We guarantee to do everything in our power to get things right and make you happy." Clearly, this statement is FALSE.

[kator]

I'd like to know if anyone has received a refund from Buytopia.

I spoke with their rep. this afternoon (after sending an ignored email last week, calling a few days ago and being told to wait for their call this afternoon - when I called THEM again this afternoon, they said they had no record of my earlier call or their instructions to me to wait for their call today).

The rep. refused to give me a refund, despite my numerous unsuccessful attempts to redeem my coupon and my concern that it will never be redeemed. After reciting various rebuttals to every issue that has been raised on the forums - most of which I didn't mention - he only entertained the idea of being the middleman to get my order. I suspect that won't work and it will just lead to more frustration.

This is on the buytopia website: "Our Promise to You - Your satisfaction is our number one concern. If ever you feel unhappy about your experience with buytopia.ca or any of our featured businesses, we want to hear about it right away! We guarantee to do everything in our power to get things right and make you happy." Clearly, this statement is FALSE.

i've been dealing with a person named michele there who assures me they're sorting it out and treating people fairly. try emailing her: michele@buytopia.ca

[callitasicit]

I'd like to know if anyone has received a refund from Buytopia.

I spoke with their rep. this afternoon (after sending an ignored email last week, calling a few days ago and being told to wait for their call this afternoon - when I called THEM again this afternoon, they said they had no record of my earlier call or their instructions to me to wait for their call today).

The rep. refused to give me a refund, despite my numerous unsuccessful attempts to redeem my coupon and my concern that it will never be redeemed. After reciting various rebuttals to every issue that has been raised on the forums - most of which I didn't mention - he only entertained the idea of being the middleman to get my order. I suspect that won't work and it will just lead to more frustration.

This is on the buytopia website: "Our Promise to You - Your satisfaction is our number one concern. If ever you feel unhappy about your experience with buytopia.ca or any of our featured businesses, we want to hear about it right away! We guarantee to do everything in our power to get things right and make you happy." Clearly, this statement is FALSE.

Wow, thanks for the warning. I dealt with Webpiggy and they refunded my money.

[kator]

You know who else got greedy?
The 6000 people who bought the $99 voucher. The 17000 people who bought the $55 voucher. And let's not forget the greedy greedy deal sites who were all too happy to be processing and transacting millions of dollars of vouchers sold.

wait, so anyone looking for a deal is greedy? you are aware what forum you're a member of right?;)

[Bookpreviews]

Luckily my sister is a lawyer. Unfortunately, she practices in LA and main deals with copyright. With so many vouchers purchased I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lawyer in the bunch or at least someone related to one.

My cousin is a lawyer but he only does something related to the government- not really "public law" or whatever you call what other lawyers do.

No idea how many people you need for a class action suit- but I'm sure you can find that out online.

The only recent legal experience I have is a case with the College of Nurses of Ontario- I have to represent myself for an issue that either will go to court (possibly I was told) or will result in my going to mediation for a serious complaint I have with a medical staff(s)....

I haven't had any issues w businesses- just real estate (buying selling, title issues) or dealing with some gov't depts.

Hopefully someone can do something to make this deal more favorable to the consumer.

I can see in the future some of the deal sites will have a disclaimer about availabilty- like "items MAY be in stock, substitutions allowed" or "orders will be processed depending on availability"

or maybe Marlon will just change the name of his business and become just a fish shop and have the store under someone else's name?

guess we will see in July.

[Cheap]

wait, so anyone looking for a deal is greedy? you are aware what forum you're a member of right?;)

There is a big difference between "anyone looking for a deal" and the people who bought the later deals. I'm not sure greed is the right word, but it is one of the motivators. This is a classic example of "if a deal seems to good to be true it probably is". No business can legitimately sell unlimited quantities of organic meats for less than 25% of the retail price. RFD helps to get deals, which includes making people aware of scams and bad business practices.


And so were the buyers of the vouchers. The first bunch have an excuse perhaps...but after several hundred vouchers were sold, anyone buying after that was taking a risk on an obviously questionable deal.

What is with the people lining up, don't they read or hear about what has been going on? Do they just look at the website and see the new hours and then show up? Are these people that the group buy sites are making try one more time? Did anyone get anything other than a limited amount of chicken or ground beef at massively inflated prices?

There were so many alarm bells ringing with these deals, not the least of which were the obvious lack of non-competition clauses in the agreements, which could have helped to prevent this fiasco. It's ironic that Marlon talks about the group buy sites cheapening his brand when it looks like it's the other way around to me.

[Cheap]

From The Butchers Website;

The Butchers will be closed on Friday June 10th due to an issue with our refridgerator compressor. The store will reopen again on Monday June 13th and to voucher holders on Thursday June 16th.

If anyone was planning to go today, don't bother.

[36469]

From The Butchers Website;

The Butchers will be closed on Friday June 10th due to an issue with our refridgerator compressor. The store will reopen again on Monday June 13th and to voucher holders on Thursday June 16th.

If anyone was planning to go today, don't bother.


Yay, The Butchers beach weekend getaway!
Maybe they'll have bbq chicken

[kingkelly]

Man thats bull about the fridge.

My friend asked about coming in last night, they said dont bother theyre all sold out and they said maaaaybbee theyd open today. He said probably better luck trying next thursday.

[YLSF]

Dealfind said in the CBC radio interview that they DID have non compete clauses in their contract that was clearly stated but that The Butchers ignored that.

For people having problems getting refund from Buytopia you should e-mail Sean at Globe TV and all of the other consumer advocates you can find. The more people that contact them the more likely they will apply pressure too. I personally will never buy from Buytopia. Usually they have crappy deals so it isn't an issue, but, today they are actually featuring a restaurant I like (Ethopian spot). I am still going to boycott them anyway :)

[dealzuser]

Man thats bull about the fridge.

My friend asked about coming in last night, they said dont bother theyre all sold out and they said maaaaybbee theyd open today. He said probably better luck trying next thursday.


I was told by Marlon to come in today for my pickup order. I bought the voucher when this deal was still sane, and got pretty decent service at the time. I'm done with this now. As customers, it shouldn't be this difficult to do business with a company.

[zoro69]

Buytopia doesn't exactly hide that they don't stand behind the deal for any length of time

" Our 100% Refund Guarantee
We want to make sure all out customers enjoy the deals they buy on our site, especially considering how much they help support important charities and causes. Therefore, we guarantee that if you have had any problems with a voucher you bought from our site, we will give you a full refund within 10 days of purchasing the deal, and a full Buytopia credit within 30 days of purchasing the deal. If though, you are unable to use a valid voucher after the 30 day period because the business shut down or changed management, let us know and we’ll try to get you your money back within 2-4 days."

Granted I don't have a lot of sympathy for anyone who went ahead and bought the later deals who had read the threads on the problems that were already thriving her...then further didn't get around to seeking refunds until now.

The class action law suite stuff isn't realistic. If a deal site isn't refunding then ratchet up the pressure. Write ellen roseman etc, c.c. deal site. Fill in competition bureaus form, fwd it to deal site. Make posts about them, send link to deal site. Make it look like you'll be more of a pain to them then the money is worth usually works.

[callitasicit]

I was told by Marlon to come in today for my pickup order. I bought the voucher when this deal was still sane, and got pretty decent service at the time. I'm done with this now. As customers, it shouldn't be this difficult to do business with a company.

I would love to know if you get what you ordered, please report back.

[dealzuser]

I would love to know if you get what you ordered, please report back.

I already requested a refund and I won't be getting my order. I'm washing my hands of this. Sadly, this is his own doing. From what I've read (and trying to stay objective), Marlon seems like a small business owner who wants to provide good product and service. However, it's hard to imagine someone being that horrible at managing his business to overextend himself, not just by percentages, but by factors. I felt bad for him when I heard him chocking up on the CBC clip, and I think he truly regrets doing the volume that he did. But it's hard to believe that he didn't realize that after the 3rd or 4th webpiggy deal, and he actually went back to the well through dealfind and finally Buytopia.


Here is my innuendo. :) I wonder if some kind of mob loan-shark is involved.... (I watch too much L & O. :) )

[shopzors]

Here is my innuendo. :) I wonder if some kind of mob loan-shark is involved.... (I watch too much L & O. :) )

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -- Hanlon's Razor

Or, maybe greed and stupidity in this case. Or just greed. It's hard to say.

[cool canuck]

Wow, thanks for the warning. I dealt with Webpiggy and they refunded my money.

You must have gotten your refund a while back, because now Webpiggy's tactic is to give you the run around.

I really don't get it, the best thing for these deal sites to do would be to refund as many people as possible in order lower the number of vouchers as there obviously should have been a limit on the number sold. There's no way that the Butchers will be able to supply all the voucher holders with meat given their shortened hours (just wait, i'm sure it'll get worse), store "problems", "problem" customers, etc etc.

[BillySue]

Buytopia doesn't exactly hide that they don't stand behind the deal for any length of time

" Our 100% Refund Guarantee
We want to make sure all out customers enjoy the deals they buy on our site, especially considering how much they help support important charities and causes. Therefore, we guarantee that if you have had any problems with a voucher you bought from our site, we will give you a full refund within 10 days of purchasing the deal, and a full Buytopia credit within 30 days of purchasing the deal. If though, you are unable to use a valid voucher after the 30 day period because the business shut down or changed management, let us know and we’ll try to get you your money back within 2-4 days."

Granted I don't have a lot of sympathy for anyone who went ahead and bought the later deals who had read the threads on the problems that were already thriving her...then further didn't get around to seeking refunds until now.

The class action law suite stuff isn't realistic. If a deal site isn't refunding then ratchet up the pressure. Write ellen roseman etc, c.c. deal site. Fill in competition bureaus form, fwd it to deal site. Make posts about them, send link to deal site. Make it look like you'll be more of a pain to them then the money is worth usually works.




Hmmm...apparently, Buytopia does check this thread.

This fiasco really started after the 30-day refund period of the last "deal" ended. As I'm sure you're aware, all of these issues didn't exist and the suckers who paid you for our "deals" had no way of predicting that they'd happen....unless they frequented these forums prior to the fiasco happening, and I'm sure that's not the case for the majority of coupon holders.

Zoro69/Buytopia rep., as suggested by someone in a previous thead, I will be contacting the media about this - not to stir up The Butchers' issue, but to raise awareness about Buytopia's shameful treatment of your customers. How do you justify refunding some people's money, but not others who are in the exact same situation? If you don't want a PR disaster too, you should really treat your customers with more respect.

[Cheap]

Hmmm...

Hi. I see you are new here, welcome. I don't know Zoro69 but I am pretty sure they aren't a Buytopia rep, if you look at their other posts you will see what I mean. If you look at the post you quoted you will see Zoro69 is offering up some good advice about how to deal with this.

[BillySue]

Hi. I see you are new here, welcome. I don't know Zoro69 but I am pretty sure they aren't a Buytopia rep, if you look at their other posts you will see what I mean. If you look at the post you quoted you will see Zoro69 is offering up some good advice about how to deal with this.

I realized that after posting my comment and then checked another blog. My bad.

Buytopia will see this though, if they haven't already.

[kingkelly]

Webpiggy just got back to me about issuing a refund. Just gotta email them, or call Harold.

Harold Moore
Customer Service Director

[MikeJefe]

Dealfind said in the CBC radio interview that they DID have non compete clauses in their contract that was clearly stated but that The Butchers ignored that.

Then shouldn't Dealfind be suing Marlon for breach of contract? If anything, customers should be filing a class action against both the deal sites and Marlon, and in turn the deal sites should be filing a class action against Marlon. Of course Marlon would just claim bankruptcy and skip town, which is probably why no lawyer wants this case. They know what the end result will be; they'll win but never get money.

[Bookpreviews]

Then shouldn't Dealfind be suing Marlon for breach of contract? If anything, customers should be filing a class action against both the deal sites and Marlon, and in turn the deal sites should be filing a class action against Marlon. Of course Marlon would just claim bankruptcy and skip town, which is probably why no lawyer wants this case. They know what the end result will be; they'll win but never get money.

I think it is just that people always say "sue...contact a lawyer" but most people who say that it is hot air.
Most people on RFD, not all but some I'm sure do not want to spend their own funds on legal fees esp when Marlon could just bankrupt and start another business next week (fish shop?).

Anyways, just following this thread out of curiousity (waiting to see when he will move the fridges across the street to start the fish shop,lol).

you have 90 days/3 months to get refunds through credit cards, so maybe that is the best option if possible.

[Cheap]

People buy based on whether they see value. Price is an important component.

Before anyone cries "scam" on this business, perhaps they should have a closer look. Is the meat organically raised? Some of these posters seem to know the answer.

As a journalist who interviewed the proprietor and included the 100 for 400 dollar offer as part of my story on Global tonight, I didn't see the tell-tale signs of scam.
First, the company has been in business more than ten years. Not fly by night, that's for sure. Second, it's a real store front. Scam operators like to hide in boiler rooms and behind the scenes.
Next, and please remember this: if you buy a product or service using a credit card, and that product or service is not delivered, you can call your major credit card company and have the charge reversed. Plain and simple. I've done scores of stories where consumers paid cash and got nothing; where we're talking coupon companies, you're much better protected, in my view.

As I told one viewer who emailed me tonight, I bought three of the Webpiggy coupons personally and will see what happens. I interviewed customers outside the store (which was not even open on Monday, but the proprietor and staff opened the doors anyway) and I was told by the customers that they were satisfied with what they got.

Good to read the postings.

Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global News Consumer SOS
sos@globalnews.ca
1.866 SOS 1414 Toronto Feedback Line
twitter @consumersos


Thanks for all of your comments--even the negative ones. (No, I didn't "get anything" from The Butchers as one poster said. That's the kind of uninformed commentary/opinion that you can't get away with working in media with libel laws, etc.)

Back to the story: if someone has a bona fide example of a scam here, send me an email: sos@globalnews.ca I will be happy to look it over.
And yes, I will get the coupon fulfilled with a third party and no reference to Global. I will be happy to report back how my expeirence went and what kind of meat was sold.

Cheers,

Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global TV Toronto sos@lobalnews.ca Twitter: @consumersos




Fair question. I cold called him. I had tracked the volume of deals, sales, I media monitor the Toronto Star and read their report. I wanted to include the frenzy over the deals in my story about rising consumer prices. He agreed to an interview although the shop was closed on Monday. So, to be clear, I was not solicited on this. (On a daily basis I hear from a dozen or so publicists and others pitching their product/organization etc.)

Of interest today since I've been getting all this feedback from you all -- and I do appreciate it -- I got an emal from Buytopia's PR. They're out pitching a story about their deal with The Butchers. I will pass on that, of course, but promise to get back to you on how they fulfill our orders. PS: I have received some emails from members talking about their own experiences.

Thanks again, and if anyone ever has a consumer story idea, email me at sos@globalnews.ca or call my tipline at 1 866 SOS 1414.

Sean O'Shea, Global TV News consumer reporter. Twitter; @consumersos


I wonder if Sean has had a chance to use his vouchers. I know it might take a little longer now if they haven't done it yet since the butchers had to cut back the store hours. I am looking forward to hearing about the results.

I highlighted the part about getting refunds from your credit card company. I am not sure if Sean means that you could get your money back if they didn't send you the voucher, or if you are unable to use your voucher under the terms you purchased it, or both. Whichever way it is, if someone has had trouble getting a refund then maybe you should contact him and see if he can help.

[Love2Snack]

I too, was supposed to pick up an order today as well. Confirmed and ready, etc etc.

At least they sent me an email saying it was cancelled a few hours before I was going to go in to get it.

I guess they had to close the store because all their fridges magically broke at once. Its a shame because they just closed the store a month or so ago to install all these new magically freezers.

Maybe they are just being moved somewhere else.....say across the road...?

[callitasicit]

I too, was supposed to pick up an order today as well. Confirmed and ready, etc etc.

At least they sent me an email saying it was cancelled a few hours before I was going to go in to get it.

I guess they had to close the store because all their fridges magically broke at once. Its a shame because they just closed the store a month or so ago to install all these new magically freezers.

Maybe they are just being moved somewhere else.....say across the road...?

I cannot believe that you are still trusting them to fulfill your order. Save yourself the trouble and get a refund from your voucher provider.

[00cp]

For those of you who still hold vouchers after reading 52 pages of this thread....

I have some bridges coming onto the market shortly and if you're interested in a great deal then send me a PM. Also, I'll keep you updated as to the stock levels of my magic beans.

[Bookpreviews]

I too, was supposed to pick up an order today as well. Confirmed and ready, etc etc.

At least they sent me an email saying it was cancelled a few hours before I was going to go in to get it.

I guess they had to close the store because all their fridges magically broke at once. Its a shame because they just closed the store a month or so ago to install all these new magically freezers.

Maybe they are just being moved somewhere else.....say across the road...?

I know if you have a commercial freezer that breaks, it usually does not take that long to fix.
I "know" someone who has a ice cream shop (know as in I buy a cup of ice cream every week there and buy containers for family who orders it) and last week the store I go to the place where they store the gelato- the only display freezer was broken and the store owner told me it would be fixed that day and the ice cream back on display the next day (store had the ice cream in their other storage freezer- not for display).

I saw that when I went to the ice cream/bakery shop they had a repair person there and the owner is friendly and spoke tome for a few minutes (he is a friendly old man...).

So I really doubt when places say it takes so long to fix stuff- even fixing appliances at home can be done within 24 hours usually...

[Bookpreviews]

For those of you who still hold vouchers after reading 52 pages of this thread....

I have some bridges coming onto the market shortly and if you're interested in a great deal then send me a PM. Also, I'll keep you updated as to the stock levels of my magic beans.

Oh wow!!
I really want one of those bridges.

How much they sell for.

Will pay in RFdollars- a new kind of currency!

[lorrie2010]

What email address did you use to get a refund from Webpiggy? I tried info@webpiggy.com last week and have not yet received a response.

I have 2:
hmoore@webpiggy.com
jvettese@webpiggy.com

Jvettese is the one who authorized my refund. Hope that helps, good luck!

[cowboydreams]

This is my first post on RFD. I, along with so many others, have been caught in this saga. I purchased vouchers for The Butchers through Buytopia in February..I believe it was the first group buying deal that was posted. Had I known then what I know now!!
I have written off The Butchers as being capable or willing to do the right thing. My issue is with the company I bought the vouchers from, Buytopia. I have been sending emails and making phone calls for 3 weeks now in hopes of getting a refund. I received a reply from Dev 3 weeks ago stating they were looking in to this and would get back to me asap. I waited for a few days... no reply. I called and spoke to Ryan, at length, making it clear I wanted a refund. He said he would look into it and get back to me in a day or two. Still haven't heard back from him. I sent another detailed email to Dev requesting a refund and details of the status of my refund. He replied "Sorry about the delay, we're putting together a "Butchers Team" to deal specifically with issues related to this deal and are trying our best to respond to everyone in a timely manner." That was June 3rd.

I have since sent multiple emails asking for, yet again, details of my refund. These have gone unanswered.

My patience has run out, along with any hope that I will be receiving a refund.

Good grief.

[Cheap]

I cannot believe that you are still trusting them to fulfill your order. Save yourself the trouble and get a refund from your voucher provider.

That's why it would be good for Sean from Global to mystery shop the Butchers and show everyone what people are actually getting so they can decide if it is still worth trying to use their voucher.

So far I've seen what Trueler and Food With Legs have received from the store. The sausages that Trueler shows look disgusting. FWL shows some nice steaks and sausages, but they admit that Marlon had pre-selected the steaks for them and the session was prearranged so there was an opportunity to put out his best products. I would like to see from a credible source what the meat that the voucher holders are getting looks like.

The majority of people are posting that they were only able to get mostly chicken, ground beef, sausages, and kabobs. They are a few posters on various sites like here and chow who said they were able to choose from a decent selection. It would help to see what someone who still wants to use their voucher can expect when they go to the store.

There has been lots of discussion about prices displayed in the store and on the packaging labels. There can be reasons why there isn't a price on every item all the time, but the prices paid/weight should be visible to the consumer somewhere during the transaction. I've read that the Butchers is limiting people to only using $25, or $60, or some other amount as a limit you can use on the voucher per visit when it was never advertised that way on the deal sites. Sean could give people a sense of whether or not the transactions are being handled fairly.

[YLSF]

Someone that lives in that area should put up "RFD" posters on the hydro poles around there for people in the line to be alerted to this thread. Or go and hand out flyers! Seriously, I am not sure why people are still lining up trying to get product. And like I said, Buytopia is a sham/scam. They should stand behind the customer. People should continue to pressure them and should go to the media. They obviously got in over their heads on this but even a small groupbuy site like Dealgetters came through in the end and refunded money so they should do the right thing too and not keep on delaying customers (I hate the "we will call you in a few days" tactic).

[BillySue]

Someone that lives in that area should put up "RFD" posters on the hydro poles around there for people in the line to be alerted to this thread. Or go and hand out flyers! Seriously, I am not sure why people are still lining up trying to get product. And like I said, Buytopia is a sham/scam. They should stand behind the customer. People should continue to pressure them and should go to the media. They obviously got in over their heads on this but even a small groupbuy site like Dealgetters came through in the end and refunded money so they should do the right thing too and not keep on delaying customers (I hate the "we will call you in a few days" tactic).

My main issue is with Buytopia - see my previous posts. I gave up on the hope of voucher redeption a while ago. I managed to get a hold of someone at Buytopia last week and I was promised a refund by the end of this week. We'll see...if it doesn't happen by Friday at 5:00, I'll raise more of a stink.

[MikeJefe]

That's why it would be good for Sean from Global to mystery shop the Butchers and show everyone what people are actually getting so they can decide if it is still worth trying to use their voucher.


They would probably recognize Sean on sight and would immediately go into the hidden fridge and serve every customer in line... Sean needs to either put on a good disguise or send in someone else, armed with a hidden camera. Then put THAT on the TV news and watch the fur fly. Marlon is good at putting on a show when the media is there (like he did as soon as he noticed the CBC microphone, remember that? It was so obvious it was comical). So the media needs to slip under the radar and get the truth about how they treat customers.

What he really should do is have the spy go in twice. Once maybe an hour before they allow voucher redemptions, to see how the regulars get treated and what selection they get, then be first in line for vouchers and see how quickly the fridge empties in short order or how the good stuff is switched for crap. I'd love to see the before and after photos....

Yongeman has been rather quiet lately on Chowhound. His lies have been fully exposed.

[Cheap]

They would probably recognize Sean on sight and would immediately go into the hidden fridge and serve every customer in line... Sean needs to either put on a good disguise or send in someone else, armed with a hidden camera. Then put THAT on the TV news and watch the fur fly.

That's why I say he should mystery shop the store, as in send in someone else. In fact Sean came on RFD and posted the following:

"As I told one viewer who emailed me tonight, I bought three of the Webpiggy coupons personally and will see what happens."

"And yes, I will get the coupon fulfilled with a third party and no reference to Global. I will be happy to report back how my expeirence went and what kind of meat was sold."

"promise to get back to you on how they fulfill our orders."

I hope he does it. There is a lot of money involved here.

[callitasicit]

That's why it would be good for Sean from Global to mystery shop the Butchers and show everyone what people are actually getting so they can decide if it is still worth trying to use their voucher.

So far I've seen what Trueler and Food With Legs have received from the store. The sausages that Trueler shows look disgusting. FWL shows some nice steaks and sausages, but they admit that Marlon had pre-selected the steaks for them and the session was prearranged so there was an opportunity to put out his best products. I would like to see from a credible source what the meat that the voucher holders are getting looks like.

The majority of people are posting that they were only able to get mostly chicken, ground beef, sausages, and kabobs. They are a few posters on various sites like here and chow who said they were able to choose from a decent selection. It would help to see what someone who still wants to use their voucher can expect when they go to the store.

There has been lots of discussion about prices displayed in the store and on the packaging labels. There can be reasons why there isn't a price on every item all the time, but the prices paid/weight should be visible to the consumer somewhere during the transaction. I've read that the Butchers is limiting people to only using $25, or $60, or some other amount as a limit you can use on the voucher per visit when it was never advertised that way on the deal sites. Sean could give people a sense of whether or not the transactions are being handled fairly.

I am stunned that people are still lining up to in an attempt to get their meat! Don't they read the forums and many of them that do are still hoping to cash in on this "great deal." C'mon people, why would you want anything from this jerk considering how he has treated most of you? Lost orders, limited hours for voucher holders, limited meat product at the store and questionable quality of meat. Just try to get your refund and be done with it!

[Love2Snack]

I am stunned that people are still lining up to in an attempt to get their meat! Don't they read the forums and many of them that do are still hoping to cash in on this "great deal." C'mon people, why would you want anything from this jerk considering how he has treated most of you? Lost orders, limited hours for voucher holders, limited meat product at the store and questionable quality of meat. Just try to get your refund and be done with it!

Its hard to admit, but you are 100% right

I'd rather pay double and get treated like a person than get a deal and get treated like an animal, made to stand in 3 hour lines and eat questionable meat.

[callitasicit]

I have 2:
hmoore@webpiggy.com
jvettese@webpiggy.com

Jvettese is the one who authorized my refund. Hope that helps, good luck!

They will definitely grant your refund. I just checked my credit card and the money was given back to me. Webpiggy is the real deal, can't speak for the other ones though.

[Cheap]

Dealfind said in the CBC radio interview that they DID have non compete clauses in their contract that was clearly stated but that The Butchers ignored that.


He said in the interview that they put them into their agreements but he never said when they started doing it, very vague. He never said the Butchers broke any part of their contract with them.

Looks like they missed the non-competition clause on this one (http://www.dealfind.com/toronto/serenemedspa3). Less than a month later, we have this one;

http://wagjag.com/index.php?_page=home&wagjag=22847

Also, you gotta love the retail price of $22,000, and "value" of $25,000. Who are they kidding?

edit: someone posted on the Wagjag deal that they called them and asked them if they were aware the salon sold over 500 vouchers with Dealfind last month and they claim they didn't know about it (at least wagjag aren't deleting comments). If everyone is signing up with with as many companies as they can, as many times as they can, its not going to do anything for peoples confidence in the group buy industry.

[JusticeToronto10]

Here is what I think.... I think the Butchers is a total and complete scam and I think that any deal site that won't provide a refund at this point (BUYTOPIA) is in on the scam. I tried numerous times to get meat, they have no interest in selling meat to anyone. They have violated all of the conditions on these vouchers, dates and times, availability. And I've felt and been treated like a second class citizen from the butchers.

When you aren't providing and have no intention of providing a service that you said you were going to.... what is that??? FRAUD. I think it is time for a class action lawsuit. It isn't the money, it is the principle here. I admire small business owners and entrepreneurs alike being one myself, but this is quite disgusting.That is the reason why everyone is so annoyed. If you want to cry about how you wish this would go away, just provide a refund==== SIMPLE STUFF. Provide a refund and let people know you can't provide the service that people paid for, instead of blaming people take ownership.

I went to the reduced hours a week ago, and the fridge apparently broke-Stop lying. You and Buytopia are on the verge of a lawsuit. I won't abuse your staff, I will abuse your bank account. "Voucher holders cheapen your brand", refund them and they will never invade your store again. Anyone who hasn't called an demanded a refund is nuts. Pick up the phone and make a stink. Write on blogs, contact the news, newspapers.....

The scam stops here..... time to take some action.

[Rehan]

From http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/13/why-groupon-is-poised-for-collapse/ : (doesn't apply to Groupon only)


...
Groupon is not an Internet marketing business so much as it is the equivalent of a loan sharking business. The $21,000 that the business in this example gets for running a Groupon is essentially a very, very expensive loan. They get the cash up front, but pay for it with deep discounts over time.

...

How would you exploit an overpriced loan? Don’t pay it back.

Assume that you’re a business that is unscrupulous and you’re looking to make a quick buck. You could create a wildly generous deal that would sell like crazy. In about 30 days, you’ll have 2/3 of your share of the deal. Then you shut down operations.

It also works for businesses that are just having a tough time. As critical as I am of Groupon, the slam dunk case is to sign up with Groupon if you’re going bankrupt. I strongly encourage every business that is about to go under to call Groupon. (Don’t tell them Rocky sent you.) It makes total financial sense—as a Hail Mary play. If you’re lucky, the upfront cash will be enough to help you stay afloat. If not, well, you were already going out of business. It may be your best option.

...

[bwrymer]

@cheap - I agree with you about the suspect non-competition clauses. Here's another one http://www.dealfind.com/mississauga/carpetkings2 which sold around 600 and now on wagjag http://wagjag.com/index.php?_page=home&wagjag=22612 selling at over 700 with still 5+ days to go. I bought a voucher for this company from a much smaller deal site, and my husband spoke with the person who came to clean our carpet and they are a very small company. I'm not sure if they can really handle the 1300+ vouchers coming their way.

Also wrote a buyer beware comment on wagjag. They didn't delete it, but just replied with some condescending remark.

I am fairly new to the group deal scene, and after buying several within the 1st month of discovering them, I am beginning to realize that it is always the same companies rotating around the various sites. Now, I always google before buying a voucher to see if the company has done the group deal rounds, and am so much more selective in picking a deal from a fairly reputable business (since the deal sites don't seem to care about doing this for us).

[Cheap]

From the CBC interview with Gary from Dealfind, this is the part where he talks about the contract;

"The only thing that I think was done incorrectly was they went with too many deal companies. In our contract its very clear that they can't run with anyone else for a certain period of time and we do that so that they won't get swamped and so that their volume can be controlled and our customers can get a good service experience. So, I mean we did everything we could . So ya, I think that in retrospect that was really their mistake."

How is it that several companies are running deals after they signed a contract with Dealfind which supposedly makes it clear that they can't run with anyone else for a certain time? If the "certain period of time" that he referred to is only a few weeks or 30 days, then its a joke, and protects no one.

If it is so important to Dealfind that a company doesn't run with anyone else for a certain period of time, then why didn't they notice the 5 other companies that did deals with the Butchers before they did? Wouldn't they check out the Butchers first before doing the deal? Why would they not be suspicious that the butchers might have broken non-competition clauses with the other companies? So when he says "we did everything we could", that didn't include Googling them? If it is important enough for them to put a clause in the contract preventing the company from doing a deal with someone else, shouldn't avoiding contracts with companies who have done several deals previously not be equally important to insure a good customer experience?

Has anyone had trouble getting a refund from Dealfind? If the Butchers didn't honour the contract with Dealfind, then I don't see how Dealfind could expect their customers to get a good service experience at the Butchers, when they didn't get one themselves.

[YLSF]

Interesting article Rehan, thanks for posting. I contacted the guy who wrote it with a link to this thread. Figured he might want to do an article on one of the biggest fiascos in group deal history

[cowboydreams]

Dealfind gave me an immediate refund after I sent them an email. That was almost a month ago. No questions asked. I am still awaiting a reply from Buytopia who seems to have taken the silent approach. After multiple emails and phone calls with Dev and Ryan, I was promised (via email) someone would be calling me to discuss the issue. I replied that there is nothing further to discuss over the phone, unless it was to confirm my credit card information for the refund. I have not received a response since. That was almost 2 weeks ago. I keep trying to give them the benefit of the doubt as I am sure they are swamped with requests for refunds, however silence is never a reassuring thing. It is coming up on a month since my first email requesting a refund. I have read about a few people who have been 'granted' a refund by Buytopia, but never got confirmation that they actually received the funds..just a promise for one. Buytopia is the ONLY group buying company that I am aware of that has yet to provide a refund to anyone. Dealfind, Webpiggy, Wagjag, Kijiji and I believe Dealgetters have all consistently given refunds. I pointed this out to Buytopia in my emails and asked them to give some thought as to how this will impact their company and future dealings with consumers.
I will never return to The Butchers. And now, as a result of their complete lack of customer service, I will never deal with Buytopia again.

[Cheap]

Dealfind gave me an immediate refund after I sent them an email. That was almost a month ago. No questions asked. I am still awaiting a reply from Buytopia who seems to have taken the silent approach. After multiple emails and phone calls with Dev and Ryan

Good to hear Dealfind stepped up and gave you your money back. Buytopia sold around 3700 vouchers in the last sale, I wonder how many of those are trying to be returned by the purchasers?

The Butchers brought us the largest group buy in N America, I wonder if this is largest group buy voucher return in N America.

So who is waiting for a refund from Buytopia? How much? how many vouchers? Anyone received a refund from Buytopia for the Butchers deal?

[dealzuser]

Good to hear Dealfind stepped up and gave you your money back. Buytopia sold around 3700 vouchers in the last sale, I wonder how many of those are trying to be returned by the purchasers?

The Butchers brought us the largest group buy in N America, I wonder if this is largest group buy voucher return in N America.

So who is waiting for a refund from Buytopia? How much? how many vouchers? Anyone received a refund from Buytopia for the Butchers deal?


Dealfind seems to be OK. I bought some restaurant vouchers before. We went once, and it actually closed down 4-6 months later! I emailed Dealfind to get a refund, and they refunded the money without any argument. Webpiggy tried to be the order desk for the Butcher for me. I told them that if it does not work for any reason, I'm out. True to their word, the refund from Webpiggy has been applied for my unused vouchers. (I told them which vouchers had been spent.)

By the time Buytopia came into this deal, this was already beyond questionable. By then, the Butchers went through Webpiggy multiple times, and Dealfind, selling over $1,000,000 worth of product. Buytopia could not be unaware of this. The fact that they still facilitated and extended the offering should SCARE anyone away from buying that Butcher deal from them.

On another note, I wonder how the Butcher is even tracking voucher usage. When I went in April, they just took the voucher without checking any list. Not sure if that is still the case. The fact that they are so overwhelmed and unable to fulfill real orders probably means even scammers are staying away. :)

[Dealbyer]

From the CBC interview with Gary from Dealfind, this is the part where he talks about the contract;

"The only thing that I think was done incorrectly was they went with too many deal companies. In our contract its very clear that they can't run with anyone else for a certain period of time and we do that so that they won't get swamped and so that their volume can be controlled and our customers can get a good service experience. So, I mean we did everything we could . So ya, I think that in retrospect that was really their mistake."

How is it that several companies are running deals after they signed a contract with Dealfind which supposedly makes it clear that they can't run with anyone else for a certain time? If the "certain period of time" that he referred to is only a few weeks or 30 days, then its a joke, and protects no one.

If it is so important to Dealfind that a company doesn't run with anyone else for a certain period of time, then why didn't they notice the 5 other companies that did deals with the Butchers before they did? Wouldn't they check out the Butchers first before doing the deal? Why would they not be suspicious that the butchers might have broken non-competition clauses with the other companies? So when he says "we did everything we could", that didn't include Googling them? If it is important enough for them to put a clause in the contract preventing the company from doing a deal with someone else, shouldn't avoiding contracts with companies who have done several deals previously not be equally important to insure a good customer experience?

Has anyone had trouble getting a refund from Dealfind? If the Butchers didn't honour the contract with Dealfind, then I don't see how Dealfind could expect their customers to get a good service experience at the Butchers, when they didn't get one themselves.


That is Dealfind blowing FLUFF imo.. They have non-competes so another companies cannot come in at the same time, or shortly after, with a lower price and undercut their deal.. THAT'S IT..

[gr8dlr]

Not to go off-topic but I recall a group deal for Lobster Trap....anyone buy that deal or go there to see how that deal was doing. There was a fair amount of discussion at the time about their ability to fulfill the quantity they sold which I think was in the neighbourhood of 4,000 vouchers.

[Jdog75]

Not to go off-topic but I recall a group deal for Lobster Trap....anyone buy that deal or go there to see how that deal was doing. There was a fair amount of discussion at the time about their ability to fulfill the quantity they sold which I think was in the neighbourhood of 4,000 vouchers.

We went a few months ago on a Saturday night. No problems whatsoever. Out of 7-8 on-line coupons, The Butchers one remains the only one we've had issues with.

[callitasicit]

Let's hope that Marlon and his business fails due to his despicable actions. He has another business he is planning to open soon, we need to ensure that business gets little to no support as well! Anyone who asks about that Fish Store on any forums needs to be forewarned of his previous and current behaviour.

[iridium001]

Not to go off-topic but I recall a group deal for Lobster Trap....anyone buy that deal or go there to see how that deal was doing. There was a fair amount of discussion at the time about their ability to fulfill the quantity they sold which I think was in the neighbourhood of 4,000 vouchers.

No problems whatsoever here either, went there 3 times now with the 5 vouchers we bought at our house. Always a line up but at least they fulfil it. Service did not suffer either at Lobster Trap. We tipped pretty generously each time 15% for party of 2 as we felt they went above and beyond.

[JusticeToronto10]

No problems whatsoever here either, went there 3 times now with the 5 vouchers we bought at our house. Always a line up but at least they fulfil it. Service did not suffer either at Lobster Trap. We tipped pretty generously each time 15% for party of 2 as we felt they went above and beyond.

The reason this is different is because it is a scam and BUYTOPIA is in on it. Until they provide full refunds, this will only escalate. Buckle your seatbelts!!!!

[Cheap]

From the Butchers website:

We are still experiencing issues with out refridgerator compressor and due to this are unable to properly refridgerate the quantity of meat required for voucher holders. We apologize for the inconvenience and hope to rectify this soon.

The store will reopen again to voucher holders on Thursday June 23rd.

Please note we have changed our voucher redemption hours. These hours are effective beginning Thursday June 23rd.

New Voucher Redemption Hours - Effective Thursday June 23rd
Thurs-Fri: 6:30pm-9:30pm


I'm speechless

[mabman]

We are still experiencing issues with out refridgerator compressor and due to this are unable to properly refridgerate the quantity of meat required for voucher holders. We apologize for the inconvenience and hope to rectify this soon.

So the refridgerator works for some quantity of meat but not a large quantity. That is bizarre. Also, do they only have one refridgerator ?

[shutterbug]

We are still experiencing issues with out refridgerator compressor and due to this are unable to properly refridgerate the quantity of meat required for voucher holders. We apologize for the inconvenience and hope to rectify this soon.

So the refridgerator works for some quantity of meat but not a large quantity. That is bizarre. Also, do they only have one refridgerator ?

It's just an excuse for him not to deal with voucher holders. Of course it doesn't make sense. You'll find that the freezer works quite well before 6:30.

[Cas77]

From the Butchers website:

We are still experiencing issues with out refridgerator compressor and due to this are unable to properly refridgerate the quantity of meat required for voucher holders. We apologize for the inconvenience and hope to rectify this soon.

The store will reopen again to voucher holders on Thursday June 23rd.

Please note we have changed our voucher redemption hours. These hours are effective beginning Thursday June 23rd.

New Voucher Redemption Hours - Effective Thursday June 23rd
Thurs-Fri: 6:30pm-9:30pm


I'm speechless

How professional...what's a refridgerator? Is that similar to my refrigerator?

[enricor]

It's just an excuse for him not to deal with voucher holders. Of course it doesn't make sense. You'll find that the freezer works quite well before 6:30.

phone the health department ...if they are storing any quantity of meat in a broken refrigerator and then selling it, that can cause serious health problems.
The fact that they are actually advertising that fact (using a broken refrigerator) is ridiculous

[cowboydreams]

I have submitted complaints to the Better Business Bureau for both The Butchers and Buytopia. It is a pretty simple process, and one that I find necessary to do as this issue continues to unravel. I would highly recommend others doing the same thing. I don't know whether it will result in a refund or not...I have never filed a complaint before. However, this situation is so grossly out of hand and the negligence shown by The Butchers and Buytopia is something that I can no longer ignore.

Still no reply from Buytopia....going on 4 weeks now.

[callitasicit]

So let me get this straight, has he closed the store due to the issue with his refrigerator or just closed it to the voucher coupon holders twice a week at six hours total a week? I am assuming it's the latter.

I am sorry to hear that Buytopia customers haven't received their refund, I know Webpiggy refunded mine and a few other deal coupon companies did the same. I hope that everyone that still has their voucher coupons are trying to get a refund.

[shopzors]

From the Butchers website:

We are still experiencing issues with out refridgerator compressor and due to this are unable to properly refridgerate the quantity of meat required for voucher holders. We apologize for the inconvenience and hope to rectify this soon.

The store will reopen again to voucher holders on Thursday June 23rd.



A whole week to fix a compressor, I guess the gnomes who are busy creating certified organic meat out of thin air have to retool their factory.

[Love2Snack]

They also have perfectly good refrigerators across the road if they really cared.

This is nothing but a fraud and a scam covered in their lies.

How can they be believed about anything any more.

Find me another butcher store in the city that has a broken fridge for more than 1 day and they would be out of business, which is where the Butcher on Yonge is clearly headed. The other joke is they never have more than 3 or 4 orders on hand anyway and they 'lose' the rest.

I don't even see an apology on this clowns website or any interview with him, or any 'plan' about how he is going to deal with this mess. He is just riding this wave until he gets arrested and then he'll close it all down.

Complaints go here

https://www.consumerbeware.mgs.gov.on.ca/compform/english/complaint.asp

[JusticeToronto10]

I received a refund from webpiggy and am prepared to go to war with Buytopia. Write all negative stuff about them online, tell you friends have bad they are and make complaints to them and to consumer agencies. Them and the Butchers. They are scammers. I don't care if it is a dollar or 50 cents I fight for principle.

Webpiggy was honourable in passing along a refund.

[callitasicit]

someone needs to throw motoliv cocktails into their shop when just the owner and his workers are there....


what a scumbag, hopefully he will rot a slow and painful death

I don't think the workers are to blame as much but Marlon clearly is a scumbag!

[canadiankorean]

Another set of restrictions for voucher holders.

Will no media outlet bring this store down?
Why is the media still beating around the bush with this fiasco?
Media should also bring a swift kick to the deal sites like Buytopia, etc.

This is just way out of hand now.
The Butchers are getting away with too much.

[xt21]

I don't get why you all are still hoping to use this voucher. It is pointless, just do a charge back on your credit card because you'll at least get your money back that way eventually.

[Cheap]

Another set of restrictions for voucher holders.

Will no media outlet bring this store down?
Why is the media still beating around the bush with this fiasco?
Media should also bring a swift kick to the deal sites like Buytopia, etc.

This is just way out of hand now.
The Butchers are getting away with too much.

I think the media has done more harm than good so far. I thought the CBC interview was good but what happened to these so-called consumer reporters watching out for scams like this. This is how Global describes Sean:

Sean O’Shea is an award-winning investigative and consumer reporter and is regarded as one of the most tenacious reporters in local television, O’Shea has exposed organized crime figures, scam artists and unscrupulous contractors – at frequent risk (he was assaulted on air by biker gang members who attacked him with a fire extinguisher.)

Even when there was already people posting on the web about problems with their vouchers here was Sean telling us he got in on the deal himself. And how Marlon opened the store for a voucher holder even though he was closed. An experienced reporter like Sean should have been able to see right through Marlon. No business can sell their product in unlimited quantities for less than 25% of the normal price.

When Sean promised to send in a third party to use his voucher and report on the results I thought that maybe I was wrong in thinking this was too good to be true. I mean here is this professional who is not only telling us that he himself has purchased the product, but that he will use his expertise to demonstrate the value of the product. Well Sean, where's the beef?

[dealzuser]

someone needs to throw motoliv cocktails into their shop when just the owner and his workers are there....

what a scumbag, hopefully he will rot a slow and painful death



Guys, this is just meat at the end of the day. People need to cool it. The worse thing that will happen is that you'll lose your money. It's not worth that kind of attitude, assuming that this is all talk.

In the meantime, work with the deal site or the credit card company to get your money back.

[Love2Snack]

Guys, this is just meat at the end of the day. People need to cool it. The worse thing that will happen is that you'll lose your money. It's not worth that kind of attitude, assuming that this is all talk.

In the meantime, work with the deal site or the credit card company to get your money back.


Been calling and emailing Buytopia for weeks and no response or answer. My credit card company (CIBC) tells me I am out of luck and they will not refund coupon purchases.

[Cheap]

Been calling and emailing Buytopia for weeks and no response or answer. My credit card company (CIBC) tells me I am out of luck and they will not refund coupon purchases.

So what exactly does Sean mean when he says:

As a journalist who interviewed the proprietor and included the 100 for 400 dollar offer as part of my story on Global tonight, I didn't see the tell-tale signs of scam.
First, the company has been in business more than ten years. Not fly by night, that's for sure. Second, it's a real store front. Scam operators like to hide in boiler rooms and behind the scenes.
Next, and please remember this: if you buy a product or service using a credit card, and that product or service is not delivered, you can call your major credit card company and have the charge reversed. Plain and simple. I've done scores of stories where consumers paid cash and got nothing; where we're talking coupon companies, you're much better protected, in my view.

When taken in context he makes it sound like if you can't use the voucher, you can get a refund. I think that you can only get a refund of they didn't send you the voucher, which is not the issue with anyone. It might be worth a try to email Sean and ask him to help, maybe it really is "plain and simple".

[ileizero]

Sent 2 emails to Buytopia (:michele@buytopia.ca) over 11 days ago!


Not a single response back! I am talking to my credit card company.


P.S. I got a refund within 3 days from dealticker!

[Love2Snack]

Sent 2 emails to Buytopia (:michele@buytopia.ca) over 11 days ago!


Not a single response back! I am talking to my credit card company.


P.S. I got a refund within 3 days from dealticker!


Let me know how it goes with your cc company.

Webpiggy and Buytopia both never responded via email, never returned phone messages or ever answered the phone.

I think they are probably small companies with maybe 3 or 4 people that work for them and all the money has been spent anyway, would not be surprised if the never respond.

[callitasicit]

Let me know how it goes with your cc company.

Webpiggy and Buytopia both never responded via email, never returned phone messages or ever answered the phone.

I think they are probably small companies with maybe 3 or 4 people that work for them and all the money has been spent anyway, would not be surprised if the never respond.

I am so surprised that Harold (Webpiggy) didn't respond to your email or phone calls. I am almost positive he will respond at some point and give you a refund, like I have said many times I got my money back from Webpiggy.

[JusticeToronto10]

Harold is a good guy, I dealt with him. No questions asked, here is your refund... I said I didn't want to do business with this butcher. Webpiggy is safe, but Buytopia is a scam.

To the person who said this is only meat....no my friend, this is principle. I would fight this hard for 50 cents or 1 million dollars. When people try to intentionally steal your money, you fight back.

The best thing we can do right now is report BUYTOPIA and THE BUTCHERS for fraud. Trash their reputation online.... write lots of comments using their names on blogs. and keep calling and emailing. I may even contact my neighbourhood police dept about the Butchers.

This who aren't listening are choosing not to listen. Now refund my money or else!

[callitasicit]

Guys, this is just meat at the end of the day. People need to cool it. The worse thing that will happen is that you'll lose your money. It's not worth that kind of attitude, assuming that this is all talk.

In the meantime, work with the deal site or the credit card company to get your money back.

Well, as someone else mentioned it is the principle of the matter. All this talk about Marlon and wishing him a slow and painful death is all talk of course, at least I hope;)

Keep in mind, consumers that purchased these coupons have wasted hours and hours and continue to get the run around from Marlon and the staff. Personally, even though I received my refund, I am still rather upset. Marlon should be ashamed of himself regarding how he has handled this situation. I can only imagine how hopping mad I would be if I didn't get my refund so I somewhat understand how many of these people feel!

[dealzuser]

To the person who said this is only meat....no my friend, this is principle. I would fight this hard for 50 cents or 1 million dollars. When people try to intentionally steal your money, you fight back.




I am not disputing that it's the principle. I fought to get my money back too. I was addressing the guy who threatened to burn down the store with the Marlon inside. That's really overboard, even if that person was just blowing hot air.

[buddhababy]

Been calling and emailing Buytopia for weeks and no response or answer. My credit card company (CIBC) tells me I am out of luck and they will not refund coupon purchases.

WTH? What reason does CIBC give for refusing? Is this a refusal for any coupon deal or this one specifically?

I've hated CIBC for more years than I care to tell, worst bank ever IMO, this is just further proof of their awfulness. I'm really interested to know what their logic is on this.

[BillySue]

Buytopia's "upto five business days" refund-processing time has passed. The grace has ended and I'm pissed sceptical again. Shame on you, Buytopia.

[bren123]

Here's the number and address of Buytopia's office:

Buytopia.ca Canada Head Office
5155 Spectrum Way
Mississauga, ON, L4W 5A1
1.855.442.2220

Try calling them up or visit their office for a refund in-person if you got the guts! :facepalm:

[qwik]

We bought 10 coupons from buytopia $40 for $100 in meat deal. We just got our refund today for the 9 that we never used. It took 2 weeks for them to send the funds via interac email after they told me on the phone I would be getting the refund.

I'm surprised you can't reach buytopia on the phone. I've only called them twice and reached someone immediately.

My experience with buytopia was good, the rep was reasonable and overall gave me good customer service. In the end I got a refund by just asking for it. I felt he valued me as a customer and he did everything he promised.

Dealing with the butchers was a pain in the ***** , we ordered delivery once and received it, and then everything fell apart from there. They would promise to deliver our next order but it would never show up without any communication before or after the fact.

[kingkelly]

Well I didnt go through Buytopia, but Im definitely never buying anything from them now.
Thanks for the heads up! Avoid BUYTOPIA

[kingkelly]

PS despite the butcher's malfunctioning refrigerator, they were still open on the weekend with oodles and oodles of meats for 'real' customers...

[callitasicit]

PS despite the butcher's malfunctioning refrigerator, they were still open on the weekend with oodles and oodles of meats for 'real' customers...

This doesn't surprise me at all.

[Love2Snack]

Webpiggy gave me a refund without a problem (Harold)

Stand up company.

Buytopia has still been laying low and not returning emails, phone calls, etc.

If Buytopia wants to ever sell another deal to the hundreds of people that read and recommend these forums they better get their customer service together. Unless they are planning to disappear like The Butcher did.

I mean come on guys, stand behind your own deal.

[cowboydreams]

The Butchers has just updated their website, and, as expected, they are shutting down for renovations. No vouchers can be redeemed until further notice.

From The Butchers site:
"Until renovations are complete we can no longer honour vouchers. However please rest assured that once we open after renovations we will honour your vouchers. Please check back regularily for updates on when the store will open again."

Right. So Buytopia, will you give me my refund NOW??


Any updates from anyone with a confirmed refund from Buytopia?

[ChristineD76]

Webpiggy gave me a refund without a problem (Harold)

Stand up company.

Buytopia has still been laying low and not returning emails, phone calls, etc.

If Buytopia wants to ever sell another deal to the hundreds of people that read and recommend these forums they better get their customer service together. Unless they are planning to disappear like The Butcher did.

I mean come on guys, stand behind your own deal.


I too received a refund from Webpiggy (Harold) within days of complaining. Harold did offer to try and be the middle man to order the meat I wanted and get it to me in 7-10 days. I simply responded that I no longer trusted The Butchers' business practices and would appreciate a full refund. My request was on a Friday afternoon... Not only did Harold respond to me over the weekend, but my refund was on my credit card by Tuesday morning. Super turn around. For this reason alone, I wouldn't be afraid to use WebPiggy again.

As for Buytopia, it has taken me over a month to get a refund from them even though I have been promised twice that I am on the refund list (whatever that is). I have kept the emails and voicemails in case I still don't have a refund in my account by the end of the week.

I will give them another week or so to get their act together... Next step is contacting the Better Business Bureau!

Good luck everyone!

[qwik]

Buytopia has still been laying low and not returning emails, phone calls, etc.

If Buytopia wants to ever sell another deal to the hundreds of people that read and recommend these forums they better get their customer service together. Unless they are planning to disappear like The Butcher did.

I mean come on guys, stand behind your own deal.


Wow it makes me feel lucky I got my refund from Buytopia. I have to say this experience is going to make me think twice before buying again.

[pakmode]

An important Message from The Butchers

Dear Valued Customers,
We would like to take a second to thank everyone who has shown great interest in our establishment by purchasing online vouchers. It has been a very busy past few months at The Butchers and we would like everyone to know that we are doing our absolute best to keep up with the demand. As you may or may not know, we have run multiple promotions with various websites over the past few months offering some great discounts in order to get people to come in and experience our shop.

So why in the world did we run these promotions?

Here at The Butchers, we honestly believe in the quality of our products and service so much that we thought people would fall in love with our meat once they have tasted the difference. We thought about spending money on billboards and other types of marketing but it costs so much money and still does not guarantee that people will come in and try our food. Therefore, instead of spending money on advertising, we decided to pass on the savings to everyone who wanted to come in and actually try our food. Because we believe in our business so much, we offered an incredible deal so that people would come in and get to know us. However, these online vouchers are a completely new form of marketing that we did not know how to use properly and it got us into a bit of uncharted territory. We want everyone to know that we honestly made a mistake by not running these promotions properly but we also want you to know that we are doing our absolute best to make up for this misjudgement. We were just really confident about our establishment and we wanted people to get to know us. When judging the number of vouchers that we could sell and handle, we went for big numbers since if you sell 1,000 vouchers that works out to about 3 new customers per day.

Unfortunately, it has been hard for us to judge how much meat to bring in since it is a perishable product and we never know how many people are going to be coming in on a particular day to redeem their vouchers. Also, we thought that people would come in and use a bit of their vouchers over the course of the year versus coming in and redeeming the full amount all in one go. I'm sure it is not hard to imagine how quickly we can go through a refrigerator case full of meat when you have 30 people redeeming their entire voucher all at once.

So what can we do to make things run smoother for everyone?

In our current situation, we are having a hard time supplying our new valued customers with the selection and availability that we strive to provide. Currently, we do not have enough refrigeration units and meat display cases to meet the supply needs of our customers.

So what can we do about it?

We can either keep running the shop the way it has been going over the past few months and keep running into supply and demand issues or we can do something to actually fix the situation. We have considered a variety of options and have decided that we need to fix the layout of the store by increasing the number of refrigeration units to accommodate and properly supply our customers. It's a tough decision to make to renovate the shop because we will have to close down for a few weeks in order to make the necessary changes so that everything runs much smoother in the future for our customers. Hopefully, people will appreciate that we are trying our best to fix this current situation and make sure that people can properly experience our establishment and leave with a smile.

Until renovations are complete we can no longer honour vouchers. However please rest assured that once we open after renovations we will honour your vouchers. Please check back regularily for updates on when the store will open again.
Finally, we want people to know that we did not make any money off of running these promotions. In fact, we lost a lot of money on each voucher that we sold but we chalked it up as a marketing expense and an initiative to get people to taste the difference between us and non-conventional meat. While we have seen many repeat customers from our promotions, we want everyone to know that we love "meating" new people every day and we are just a team of good people that made a mistake while using a new form of marketing. It was our fault that we're in the situation that we are in but we just want all of our customers to know that we are doing absolutely everything possible to make the best of the situation. Thank you very much to everyone for your support and understanding on this matter and we look forward to showing you the quality and service that we've built our business on over the last ten years.

Best Regards,
The Butchers Team

[YLSF]

Thanks for the comedy gold!

So, how long do new fridges take to install. My guess is at least until the end of summer... Take away the prime market of voucher holders wanting to BBQ. Geez. The Butchers should do the right thing and offer refunds in combination with the voucher companies.
Heck, since they now say they are losing money, it shouldn't be a problem.

[MikeJefe]

Thanks for the comedy gold!

The Butchers should do the right thing and offer refunds in combination with the voucher companies.
Heck, since they now say they are losing money, it shouldn't be a problem.

Wouldn't they break even and not lose any more money if they just cancelled all the outstanding vouchers and told the deal sites "go refund everybody"? That would make too much sense.

How long will this renovation last? It'll be like construction on the 401 at Yonge Street -- it'll never end. They'll just move all the fridges across the street to the new fish store and the butcher shop never opens again.

Yongeman, your silence on this is deafening... what happened, Marlon finally stabbed you in the back and didn't serve you?

[JusticeToronto10]

SCAM ALERT SCAM ALERT!!!! The Butcher is one of the most scammy businesses in Toronto. Get your refund now before they leave the country. BUYTOPIA is a fraud as well..... amazing that they can get away with this. Keep "butchering" The Butchers shop and Buytopia online....

Greed greed and more greed. They have probably moved to Switzerland for all we know.

[Cheap]

It's a tough decision to make to renovate the shop because we will have to close down for a few weeks in order to make the necessary changes so that everything runs much smoother in the future for our customers. Hopefully, people will appreciate that we are trying our best to fix this current situation and make sure that people can properly experience our establishment and leave with a smile.

Finally, we want people to know that we did not make any money off of running these promotions. In fact, we lost a lot of money on each voucher that we sold but we chalked it up as a marketing expense and an initiative to get people to taste the difference between us and non-conventional meat. While we have seen many repeat customers from our promotions, we want everyone to know that we love "meating" new people every day and we are just a team of good people that made a mistake while using a new form of marketing. It was our fault that we're in the situation that we are in but we just want all of our customers to know that we are doing absolutely everything possible to make the best of the situation. Thank you very much to everyone for your support and understanding on this matter and we look forward to showing you the quality and service that we've built our business on over the last ten years.

Best Regards,
The Butchers Team

No, we're not going out of business. Actually, we're preparing for a pretty nice renovation in July.
http://www.postcity.com/Eat-Shop-Do/Eat/June-2011/Marlon-Pather-responds-to-The-Butchers-extreme-couponing-debacle/

A tough decision to close for renovations? So they lost money on these vouchers? Wouldn't that mean on a continuing basis? So they're sorry, they're doing everything they can, they're a team of good people that made a mistake, but they're keeping the money!

It's a good thing Sean came on RFD to give us his professional opinion on the deal, otherwise people who bought vouchers might start to worry.

As a journalist who interviewed the proprietor and included the 100 for 400 dollar offer as part of my story on Global tonight, I didn't see the tell-tale signs of scam.
Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global News Consumer SOS

[Love2Snack]

So the butchers is finally closed. Their lawyers probably told them they can't just stop honouring vouchers or they are liable to be sued so they just close to 'indefinite' renovations.

That message on their website is a joke. We all know what really happened and we all know they will be selling meat to cash customers.

I still have not heard anything from Buytopia. They are not standing behind this deal and it is making me pretty angry.

How are more fridges going to help? They barely filled half of the ones they had on their best day.

You will see the renovations pushed back forever.

And yes, where is the fish store....? The one on the voucher..... And the fish store is filled with brand new empty fridges...why not use those Marlon? Because it's not about the fridges, is it?

[00cp]

BURN.... and there it is. I think we originally pegged the date of closure around the 23rd of this month? So at least we were close

[JusticeToronto10]

Buytopia explained to me that they got $40 from the $100 voucher and that the Butcher made $60 for every voucher sold. This guy needs a few courses in how to run a business, not seeing how they make money unless they steal it or don't serve meat?

[JBlue]

Ahh I guess he received all of his payments from the sites. Now it is time to tell the customers to beat it.

[nmccolvin]

WTH? What reason does CIBC give for refusing? Is this a refusal for any coupon deal or this one specifically?

I've hated CIBC for more years than I care to tell, worst bank ever IMO, this is just further proof of their awfulness. I'm really interested to know what their logic is on this.

After weeks of trying to get satisfaction from Buytopia and being met with non replies to email, promises of call backs that never materialized, repeated calls on my behalf met with indifference I decided to contact CIBC Visa about a charge reversal

I called customer service and then faxed copies of my purchase receipt, my vouchers, my original email requesting a refund to Buytopia that has never been responded to and a letter detailing the issues with both Buytopia and The Butchers including mentions of this thread and media reports and continued promises for call backs that never came.

Low and behold I've discovered a chargeback credit on my Visa today

BTW - My purchase was from Feb.

While I would have been much happier if I hadn't had to spend so much time chasing Buytopia and they would have just done the right thing from the beginning and provided a refund, I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't at least pleased that they will be hit with an extra fee from Visa on top of just the money that will be refunded. Now that I have recieved my money against their will I will really ramp up the online action to warn people not to buy anything from Buytopia. (Didn't want them to be able to use it against me if VISA was not prepared to offer reversal)

Keep pressing to get your refund and hopefully when the last one is obtained they will be out of business as that's what shady practise should earn you.

I should also note that Kijiji refunded a voucher I bought from them for the Butchers way back in Dec within 24 hours of first contact so feel free to continue shopping their deals in good faith.

[Cheap]

After weeks of trying to get satisfaction from Buytopia and being met with non replies to email, promises of call backs that never materialized, repeated calls on my behalf met with indifference I decided to contact CIBC Visa about a charge reversal

I called customer service and then faxed copies of my purchase receipt, my vouchers, my original email requesting a refund to Buytopia that has never been responded to and a letter detailing the issues with both Buytopia and The Butchers including mentions of this thread and media reports and continued promises for call backs that never came.

Low and behold I've discovered a chargeback credit on my Visa today

BTW - My purchase was from Feb.

While I would have been much happier if I hadn't had to spend so much time chasing Buytopia and they would have just done the right thing from the beginning and provided a refund, I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't at least pleased that they will be hit with an extra fee from Visa on top of just the money that will be refunded. Now that I have recieved my money against their will I will really ramp up the online action to warn people not to buy anything from Buytopia. (Didn't want them to be able to use it against me if VISA was not prepared to offer reversal)

Keep pressing to get your refund and hopefully when the last one is obtained they will be out of business as that's what shady practise should earn you.

I should also note that Kijiji refunded a voucher I bought from them for the Butchers way back in Dec within 24 hours of first contact so feel free to continue shopping their deals in good faith.

So is Kijiji a good place to work? Just kidding. Thanks for posting your success. It's too bad that people are having to fight to get their money back, but at least you proved it was possible to get a cc refund even after several months. So you can get a refund if you are persistent enough, shouldn't be that way though should it? Admitting that they made a mistake should have been followed by an offer to refund people who were a victim of their mistake. That's what good people do. Letting Marlon, who has failed spectacularly so far decide how to fix something that he admits is all new to him, and that he knows nothing about is like asking someone to bet on a dead horse.

[cowboydreams]

I decided that in light of The Butchers' new announcement yesterday that it was time for one final attempt to get a refund from Buytopia. I have been sending emails and making phone calls for a month now with no response, so I'm not holding my breath.
So I just called Buytopia (1-855-442-2220) about an hour ago and got Jessica. I told her I would like to know the status of my refund. She asked for my name and what deal it was for. I gave her the purchase date (Feb 4, 2011) and told her it was for The Butchers. She asked if I had been in touch with anyone. I held back my laughter and told her I have been in email and phone call limbo for a month now. She asked who I was dealing with. I said both Dev and Ryan. I asked if I could speak to either of them as they were more aware, hopefully, of my request. She put me on hold so she could pull up my file. When she came back she told me both Ryan and Dev were out of the office for the day. Interesting. She then asked me for my phone number so she could call me back. I asked why she needed to call me back...we are on the phone right now so let's deal with my request. She said she would have to review my emails and notes and would call me back. I told her that I've heard that before and asked if she in fact had the authority to issue me a refund. She said she did, that she understood my frustration, and that she would be calling me right back. I verified my phone number with her and said I would be awaiting her call shortly.
That was an hour ago. I don't think I will be hearing back from Jessica today. If I do, I will be posting the outcome.
I am very happy to hear that Visa gave a chargeback for a Feb voucher purchase. I will be calling them shortly.

[Xeros]

That message from the Butchers, is the store closed completely or closed only for voucher holders?

[shopzors]

If they lost money with every voucher, and they sold...how many? 5000? 10000? 21000?...then how are they staying in business and paying for renovation costs?? :confused:

[Cheap]

That message from the Butchers, is the store closed completely or closed only for voucher holders?

That message says they are closing for renovations so maybe that means everyone, who really knows with this guy. Marlon said weeks ago that they were closing for renovations in July. I'm suspicious of the timing here, he has come up with a reason not to be open to voucher holders on Thurs and Fri for weeks. His message doesn't say when they are closing, so I wouldn't be surprised if he kept the store open until July for cash customers.

[matdwyer]

I don't agree with what the guy did (and he certainly seems like he knows he made a mistake), but you have to give him credit for at least trying to keep things going. The easy thing would be to just close, wait a year, and open again somewhere else, but he's trucking it out and dealing with all this crap. I know that doesn't really make up for it (or calm any of you that bought it) but I try to put myself in the position of the businesses in some of these and realize how tough they unknowingly made it for themselves.

[Cheap]

I don't agree with what the guy did (and he certainly seems like he knows he made a mistake), but you have to give him credit for at least trying to keep things going. The easy thing would be to just close wait a year , and open again somewhere else, but he's trucking it out ]and dealing with all this crap. I know that doesn't really make up for it (or calm any of you that bought it) but I try to put myself in the position of the businesses in some of these and realize how tough they unknowingly made it for themselves.

Normally I could see your point but not in this case. What do good people do when they unknowingly make it tough for themselves and take money from people and then can't deliver? They give it back.

He is not claiming he is broke, he has money to spend on renovations but not refunds. He has decided that in order to solve this, the best way is for him to remodel his store so he can impress voucher holders with the quality of his products and service. That ship sailed loooong ago. I think most people would rather just have their money back and have Marlon stop trucking on.

[matdwyer]

Normally I could see your point but not in this case. What do good people do when they unknowingly make it tough for themselves and take money from people and then can't deliver? They give it back.

He is not claiming he is broke, he has money to spend on renovations but not refunds. He has decided that in order to solve this, the best way is for him to remodel his store so he can impress voucher holders with the quality of his products and service. That ship sailed loooong ago. I think most people would rather just have their money back and have Marlon stop trucking on.

No doubt in my mind that the money for this is gone - his biggest mistake was not doing ONE group deal and seeing how it works.

If he's only getting $60 in exchange for $400 of product (lets assume that at those volumes, he's getting it for say $150 wholesale?) then he's already far in the hole. I blame the grouuyp buying companies for not monitoring this better anyway, and I'm sure some of the smaller ones are already hurting (notice how Teambuy, groupon, wagjag all didn't do this one (did they?)) with all the refunds. They're used to just sitting back and collecting money, but they have just as much fault here too I think.

Regardless, I'm not trying to defend him as I know you're all extremely pissed (with reason) but hopefully this story is publicized enough for businesses thinking about group buys to actually consider the implications and if it is right for their business before doing them (I've ranted about this before, see biz section)

[Cheap]

No doubt in my mind that the money for this is gone - his biggest mistake was not doing ONE group deal and seeing how it works.

If he's only getting $60 in exchange for $400 of product (lets assume that at those volumes, he's getting it for say $150 wholesale?) then he's already far in the hole. I blame the grouuyp buying companies for not monitoring this better anyway, and I'm sure some of the smaller ones are already hurting (notice how Teambuy, groupon, wagjag all didn't do this one (did they?)) with all the refunds. They're used to just sitting back and collecting money, but they have just as much fault here too I think.

Regardless, I'm not trying to defend him as I know you're all extremely pissed (with reason) but hopefully this story is publicized enough for businesses thinking about group buys to actually consider the implications and if it is right for their business before doing them (I've ranted about this before, see biz section)

I'm not so sure about the money. He was paid by the group buy companies and I bet he has spent very little of it on ground beef and chicken for the few hours the store has been open to voucher holders. Deliveries were cut off long ago. He would have spent more in the beginning to pump the scheme up for more group sales but, after the last one there was no need to purchase quality product for voucher holders. As someone else said the timing on this probably has a lot to do with Marlon not getting any more money from the group buy companies. Now that the money has stopped coming in, it's time to stop it from going out.

We need less publicity on these deals if this is the quality we can expect;

As a journalist who interviewed the proprietor and included the 100 for 400 dollar offer as part of my story on Global tonight, I didn't see the tell-tale signs of scam.
Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global News Consumer SOS

[Rehan]

No doubt in my mind that the money for this is gone - his biggest mistake was not doing ONE group deal and seeing how it works. I'd say that was the first of many, many mistakes...but not the biggest one. The biggest mistake would be lack of honesty and integrity. That is what has destroyed his business.

[Cheap]

is biggest mistake was not doing ONE group deal and seeing how it works.


One hit of the groupbong and he was hooked.....oh that sweet sweet cash!

[Cas77]

one hit of the groupbong and he was hooked.....oh that sweet sweet cash!

lmao

[cowboydreams]

So I never heard back from Jessica at Buytopia as promised this morning. I decided to call TD Visa and request a charge back. They told me they cannot help as it is over 60 days. I explained the situation in detail as well as let them know that other consumers have received charge backs from their credit card company over 60 days. All they did was call Buytopia (with me on the line) and asked if they can give me a refund. Of course, Buytopia said they cannot provide a refund as it is over 60 days and The Butchers has received all funds for the deal (60%)...therefore Buytopia does not have the funds to provide refunds.

TD Visa was no help. Unfortunate.

After the Visa representative left the line I had a lengthy discussion with Ryan (who apparently was not in the office today,as told to me by Jessica this morning). He told me I had 3 options...
1.) I accept a credit to Buytopia in the full amount. (I said absolutely not)
2.) I accept a refund for 40% of the total purchase by cheque from Buytopia. (I said absolutely not)
3.) I request that Buytopia sends an invoice to The Butchers for the full amount to be refunded.

I went with option 3.

So, what happens next? Buytopia sends an invoice to The Butchers for all refund requests that they currently have. (they sent one last week in the amount of approx $3000 and The Butchers agreed to refund)
The Butchers legally has 30 days to respond to the invoice. If they do not respond, Buytopia then takes legal action against them. I am hoping that what Ryan told me is the truth and that I may not be crazy to think that The Butchers will grant a refund. I may have a cheque in the mail by next week. May.

So my advice to everyone still trying to get a refund....call your credit card company and talk to someone in the resolution centre, they may give you a chargeback..or they may call on your behalf to apply some pressure to get your refund. Or, call the group buying site and request an invoice be sent to The Butchers on your behalf.

Again, it may not result in an instant refund, but if enough call and make a fuss, it may result in SOMETHING!

Will keep you posted. Awaiting an email from Ryan confirming our conversation and the next steps involved.

[Xeros]

Wow, seems so easy to scam everyone.

1. Create deal with a future date 60 days in advance.
2. Get paid for deal upfront.
3. Do no fulfill the deal to your customers.
4. Close shop and declare corporate bankruptcy.

Am I missing anything?


So I never heard back from Jessica at Buytopia as promised this morning. I decided to call TD Visa and request a charge back. They told me they cannot help as it is over 60 days. I explained the situation in detail as well as let them know that other consumers have received charge backs from their credit card company over 60 days. All they did was call Buytopia (with me on the line) and asked if they can give me a refund. Of course, Buytopia said they cannot provide a refund as it is over 60 days and The Butchers has received all funds for the deal (60%)...therefore Buytopia does not have the funds to provide refunds.

TD Visa was no help. Unfortunate.

After the Visa representative left the line I had a lengthy discussion with Ryan (who apparently was not in the office today,as told to me by Jessica this morning). He told me I had 3 options...
1.) I accept a credit to Buytopia in the full amount. (I said absolutely not)
2.) I accept a refund for 40% of the total purchase by cheque from Buytopia. (I said absolutely not)
3.) I request that Buytopia sends an invoice to The Butchers for the full amount to be refunded.

I went with option 3.

So, what happens next? Buytopia sends an invoice to The Butchers for all refund requests that they currently have. (they sent one last week in the amount of approx $3000 and The Butchers agreed to refund)
The Butchers legally has 30 days to respond to the invoice. If they do not respond, Buytopia then takes legal action against them. I am hoping that what Ryan told me is the truth and that I may not be crazy to think that The Butchers will grant a refund. I may have a cheque in the mail by next week. May.

So my advice to everyone still trying to get a refund....call your credit card company and talk to someone in the resolution centre, they may give you a chargeback..or they may call on your behalf to apply some pressure to get your refund. Or, call the group buying site and request an invoice be sent to The Butchers on your behalf.

Again, it may not result in an instant refund, but if enough call and make a fuss, it may result in SOMETHING!

Will keep you posted. Awaiting an email from Ryan confirming our conversation and the next steps involved.

[Cheap]

Wow, seems so easy to scam everyone.

1. Create deal with a future date 60 days in advance.
2. Get paid for deal upfront.
3. Do no fulfill the deal to your customers.
4. Close shop and declare corporate bankruptcy.

Am I missing anything?

A conscience, morals, integrity

[kingkelly]

Web Piggy is now NOT issuing refunds.
They have just paid out to the butcher, so if you try to get a refund now, good luck, only credit. WebPiggy and Buytopia should have just cancelled this deal and never paid out to butchers.
Coincidentally, the butchers have just closed down their shop...

Contact Harold Moore for any refund issues:

Harold Moore
WebPiggy Customer Service Director
416-849-5442

(and no i will not take down their direct contact numbers again, dont waste your time PMing me)

[Bookpreviews]

So I never heard back from Jessica at Buytopia as promised this morning. I decided to call TD Visa and request a charge back. They told me they cannot help as it is over 60 days. I explained the situation in detail as well as let them know that other consumers have received charge backs from their credit card company over 60 days. All they did was call Buytopia (with me on the line) and asked if they can give me a refund. Of course, Buytopia said they cannot provide a refund as it is over 60 days and The Butchers has received all funds for the deal (60%)...therefore Buytopia does not have the funds to provide refunds.

TD Visa was no help. Unfortunate.

After the Visa representative left the line I had a lengthy discussion with Ryan (who apparently was not in the office today,as told to me by Jessica this morning). He told me I had 3 options...
1.) I accept a credit to Buytopia in the full amount. (I said absolutely not)
2.) I accept a refund for 40% of the total purchase by cheque from Buytopia. (I said absolutely not)
3.) I request that Buytopia sends an invoice to The Butchers for the full amount to be refunded.

I went with option 3.

So, what happens next? Buytopia sends an invoice to The Butchers for all refund requests that they currently have. (they sent one last week in the amount of approx $3000 and The Butchers agreed to refund)
The Butchers legally has 30 days to respond to the invoice. If they do not respond, Buytopia then takes legal action against them. I am hoping that what Ryan told me is the truth and that I may not be crazy to think that The Butchers will grant a refund. I may have a cheque in the mail by next week. May.

So my advice to everyone still trying to get a refund....call your credit card company and talk to someone in the resolution centre, they may give you a chargeback..or they may call on your behalf to apply some pressure to get your refund. Or, call the group buying site and request an invoice be sent to The Butchers on your behalf.

Again, it may not result in an instant refund, but if enough call and make a fuss, it may result in SOMETHING!

Will keep you posted. Awaiting an email from Ryan confirming our conversation and the next steps involved.

I hope that they are sending the invoice by REGISTERED MAIL? or COURIER?
If not the invoice might not be able to be enforced.
That is what my lawyer told me earlier this year when I had issues w direct energy trying to scam me with some "fake" charges.

I was told if they just put something in the mail,lol or send a fax the business can say that they never received anything.
I know for my issue I had tried speaking on the phone w direct energy, sent a fax and....nothing.
Sent a registered letter and they paid attention.
So if you send just a letter by regular mail it can not be enforced in court apparently

I don't have any dealings w the butchers so can just comment on a different situation.
Try and find out how the invoice is being sent.

Good luck anyways!

[kator]

Web Piggy is now NOT issuing refunds.
They have just paid out to the butcher, so if you try to get a refund now, good luck, only credit.

ah ha, so that's why the renovations are starting now

[callitasicit]

So I never heard back from Jessica at Buytopia as promised this morning. I decided to call TD Visa and request a charge back. They told me they cannot help as it is over 60 days. I explained the situation in detail as well as let them know that other consumers have received charge backs from their credit card company over 60 days. All they did was call Buytopia (with me on the line) and asked if they can give me a refund. Of course, Buytopia said they cannot provide a refund as it is over 60 days and The Butchers has received all funds for the deal (60%)...therefore Buytopia does not have the funds to provide refunds.

TD Visa was no help. Unfortunate.

After the Visa representative left the line I had a lengthy discussion with Ryan (who apparently was not in the office today,as told to me by Jessica this morning). He told me I had 3 options...
1.) I accept a credit to Buytopia in the full amount. (I said absolutely not)
2.) I accept a refund for 40% of the total purchase by cheque from Buytopia. (I said absolutely not)
3.) I request that Buytopia sends an invoice to The Butchers for the full amount to be refunded.

I went with option 3.

So, what happens next? Buytopia sends an invoice to The Butchers for all refund requests that they currently have. (they sent one last week in the amount of approx $3000 and The Butchers agreed to refund)
The Butchers legally has 30 days to respond to the invoice. If they do not respond, Buytopia then takes legal action against them. I am hoping that what Ryan told me is the truth and that I may not be crazy to think that The Butchers will grant a refund. I may have a cheque in the mail by next week. May.

So my advice to everyone still trying to get a refund....call your credit card company and talk to someone in the resolution centre, they may give you a chargeback..or they may call on your behalf to apply some pressure to get your refund. Or, call the group buying site and request an invoice be sent to The Butchers on your behalf.

Again, it may not result in an instant refund, but if enough call and make a fuss, it may result in SOMETHING!

Will keep you posted. Awaiting an email from Ryan confirming our conversation and the next steps involved.


Like anyone would take option #2, what a joke! I feel bad for anyone who is dealing with Buytopia. Good luck getting your refund back.

[zoro69]

Wow, seems so easy to scam everyone.

1. Create deal with a future date 60 days in advance.
2. Get paid for deal upfront.
3. Do no fulfill the deal to your customers.
4. Close shop and declare corporate bankruptcy.

Am I missing anything?

People were predicting this on rfd long before the last voucher deals were even offered. Then posted over and over again that people who did buy should use them right away or get a refund as it wouldn't be as easy as some were claiming. just inexplicable people waited this long, when it was so obvious all along.

[kator]

An important Message from The Butchers

Dear Valued Customers,
We would like to take a second to thank everyone who has shown great interest in our establishment by purchasing online vouchers. It has been a very busy past few months at The Butchers and we would like everyone to know that we are doing our absolute best to keep up with the demand. As you may or may not know, we have run multiple promotions with various websites over the past few months offering some great discounts in order to get people to come in and experience our shop.

So why in the world did we run these promotions?

Here at The Butchers, we honestly believe in the quality of our products and service so much that we thought people would fall in love with our meat once they have tasted the difference. We thought about spending money on billboards and other types of marketing but it costs so much money and still does not guarantee that people will come in and try our food. Therefore, instead of spending money on advertising, we decided to pass on the savings to everyone who wanted to come in and actually try our food. Because we believe in our business so much, we offered an incredible deal so that people would come in and get to know us. However, these online vouchers are a completely new form of marketing that we did not know how to use properly and it got us into a bit of uncharted territory. We want everyone to know that we honestly made a mistake by not running these promotions properly but we also want you to know that we are doing our absolute best to make up for this misjudgement. We were just really confident about our establishment and we wanted people to get to know us. When judging the number of vouchers that we could sell and handle, we went for big numbers since if you sell 1,000 vouchers that works out to about 3 new customers per day.

Unfortunately, it has been hard for us to judge how much meat to bring in since it is a perishable product and we never know how many people are going to be coming in on a particular day to redeem their vouchers. Also, we thought that people would come in and use a bit of their vouchers over the course of the year versus coming in and redeeming the full amount all in one go. I'm sure it is not hard to imagine how quickly we can go through a refrigerator case full of meat when you have 30 people redeeming their entire voucher all at once.

So what can we do to make things run smoother for everyone?

In our current situation, we are having a hard time supplying our new valued customers with the selection and availability that we strive to provide. Currently, we do not have enough refrigeration units and meat display cases to meet the supply needs of our customers.

So what can we do about it?

We can either keep running the shop the way it has been going over the past few months and keep running into supply and demand issues or we can do something to actually fix the situation. We have considered a variety of options and have decided that we need to fix the layout of the store by increasing the number of refrigeration units to accommodate and properly supply our customers. It's a tough decision to make to renovate the shop because we will have to close down for a few weeks in order to make the necessary changes so that everything runs much smoother in the future for our customers. Hopefully, people will appreciate that we are trying our best to fix this current situation and make sure that people can properly experience our establishment and leave with a smile.

Until renovations are complete we can no longer honour vouchers. However please rest assured that once we open after renovations we will honour your vouchers. Please check back regularily for updates on when the store will open again.
Finally, we want people to know that we did not make any money off of running these promotions. In fact, we lost a lot of money on each voucher that we sold but we chalked it up as a marketing expense and an initiative to get people to taste the difference between us and non-conventional meat. While we have seen many repeat customers from our promotions, we want everyone to know that we love "meating" new people every day and we are just a team of good people that made a mistake while using a new form of marketing. It was our fault that we're in the situation that we are in but we just want all of our customers to know that we are doing absolutely everything possible to make the best of the situation. Thank you very much to everyone for your support and understanding on this matter and we look forward to showing you the quality and service that we've built our business on over the last ten years.

Best Regards,
The Butchers Team

all i have to say is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCQ7VLoY7bQ

[Love2Snack]

Harold at Webpiggy said he was going to give me a refund a few days ago. I have not seen my statement yet so I do not know. Buytopia never responded to my emails asking for a refund and when I called they put up a bit of a fuss but I was pretty pissed about the deal and let them know it and eventually she said she would consult their 'butcher team' And she said I would receive a refund in 10-15 days....Which seems like a long time so I guess we will see. This was yesterday, so maybe there is still hope for you guys. Don't settle for anything less than a full refund. You bought the coupons from Buytopia and they promised all sorts of things on their coupon and didn't deliver. They are the ones responsible for not delivering what they promised in their terms.

[kingkelly]

WebPiggy definitely cant be trusted now either.

I've had 4 others try and get a refund from them now with no response or luck. Not sure if theyre losing a bunch from this Butchers scam or what, but the complaints for them are coming in big time. Im working with one of the bigger newspapers right now on a new story on the Butchers and the shadiness of the deal companies not sticking behind THEIR deals.

[00cp]

I think the time has come for a bigger push to get the Gov't to regulate this industry.

[zoro69]

Im on the fence on that. Obviously there are already a lot of problems with these and the potential for more is huge.

On the other hand, do we really need the government (and its associated cost) to protect people who lost money because of their own stupidity who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions?

Buytopia's facebook page has *ONE* person asking about the butchers. They told her to phone...she said she might get around to it next week, then said she emailed instead. If you sat there all this time knowing there were problems, and are still too lazy to do anything, is it the government's responsibility? Here we have a few people that contacted the media, a few people that have pushed for refunds...and who knows how many sat there reading it waiting for someone else to do something and/or deciding pursuit of getting the deal was worth holding on?

On the shooting range one there are people that actually looked into it, knew there was no shooting range/sketchy operation...and bought anyway. Maybe people should think about it before sending their money off to a business they've never heard of, on a page that says "no refunds"?

[Cas77]

Im on the fence on that. Obviously there are already a lot of problems with these and the potential for more is huge.

On the other hand, do we really need the government (and its associated cost) to protect people who lost money because of their own stupidity who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions?

Buytopia's facebook page has *ONE* person asking about the butchers. They told her to phone...she said she might get around to it next week, then said she emailed instead. If you sat there all this time knowing there were problems, and are still too lazy to do anything, is it the government's responsibility? Here we have a few people that contacted the media, a few people that have pushed for refunds...and who knows how many sat there reading it waiting for someone else to do something and/or deciding pursuit of getting the deal was worth holding on?

On the shooting range one there are people that actually looked into it, knew there was no shooting range/sketchy operation...and bought anyway. Maybe people should think about it before sending their money off to a business they've never heard of, on a page that says "no refunds"?

While I agree with you for the most part (I'm strongly opposed to a nanny state), the governemnt needs to protect it's citizens from fraud and illegal activities. In the case of these deal sites, it simply has to come from the timely application of current consumer, civil and criminal laws.

When someone pays a 10% tax (in cash only no less), the government needs to step in. I purchased a deal with a similiar cash tax scam in the past. When you sell something knowing you will not be able to deliver, that's fraud. Offering a progressively larger deal to finance older ones (as is the case here) is extremly Bernie Maddoff'esque. In these situations the government should step in.

[kingkelly]

Apparently WebPiggy had a magi cutoff date of a week ago for refunds, so now there is no chance to get your moneys back from them, and even less chance to get meat from the butchers. Ordering through them did not work and wasted my time, showing up to the butchers did not work, online ordering through the butchers did not work...

James did tell me on the phone that I am more than welcome to come by their office and he will give me $100 out of his 'pocket'. Not sure if this is the correct street as I could not tell from the swearing and hanging up after he gave me it. I kept telling him its his responsibility to back up the deals they offer, but it didnt seem to concern them too much.

Webpiggy
26 Soho Street
Suite 201
Toronto, Ontario M5T 1Z7

[zoro69]

same address as http://www.school-day.com/


In all this time did people not look at the terms that are on the sites??
"What if I want a refund?

Webpiggy handles refunds on a case by case basis. All sales are considered final once the payment has been processed at the end of each deal. If you are not satisfied with a service or product you have purchased from a participating merchant we will provide you with a full refund for 30 days after your purchase. After 30 days we will give you a Webpiggy credit for the full amount.
What if the business I buy a voucher from goes out of business?

We'll give you a Webpiggy credit of equal value."


--
"(they sent one last week in the amount of approx $3000 and The Butchers agreed to refund"

So assuming that is true...only 50 people made any effort to get on the "refund list", despite it being near 5 months since the first posts on this thread pointing out problems. That is why doing this is so attractive

[Love2Snack]

That 30 day money back thing is if you are not happy with the deal as it is, with the terms that were promised. Butopia, Webpiggy, etc promised so much on their wonderful coupon and could not deliver. I suspect the law would say that there is no time limit on refunds because they violated their own terms. Don't let them tell you there is a 30 or 60 day refund period. They did not deliver what they promised and they have to be held accountable and provide refunds.

The butcher are asses for what they have done and they will be held accountable by their customers, but the coupon sites made promises too and also did not deliver and there is no excuse for that.

[Bookpreviews]

That 30 day money back thing is if you are not happy with the deal as it is, with the terms that were promised. Butopia, Webpiggy, etc promised so much on their wonderful coupon and could not deliver. I suspect the law would say that there is no time limit on refunds because they violated their own terms. Don't let them tell you there is a 30 or 60 day refund period. They did not deliver what they promised and they have to be held accountable and provide refunds.

The butcher are asses for what they have done and they will be held accountable by their customers, but the coupon sites made promises too and also did not deliver and there is no excuse for that.

Has anyone actually looked up the refund laws for Ontario?

I would also like to see someone FAX the deal site with a large print copy of those rules.
then see what they have to say.

or maybe people should just continually fax the deal company until they get the picture and refund?
A few times I have set my pc fax to just keep on resending the same pages for a few days-usually people/companies get the hint by then .
(did that to condo maintenance co and put their phone # on the garbage bin,lol)
-worked very well :)

[Linhly]

I bought 9 vouchers for the Butcher's from Buytopia. We all know what happened there. I emailed Buytopia with no response, called and left a message with no response, spoke to a rep 2 times and promised to call me back with a refund, no one did. All together I contacted them 7 times with no luck to get a refund. they give me the run around and promise things that do not happen. NEVER BUY FROM BUYTOPIA AGAIN. TEAMSAVE, DEAL OF THE DAY GAVE REFUNDS WITHIN 3 DAYS. BUSINESS LIKE THIS SHOULD GO BANKRUPT AND I HOPE THEY DO SOON!

[callitasicit]

I bought 9 vouchers for the Butcher's from Buytopia. We all know what happened there. I emailed Buytopia with no response, called and left a message with no response, spoke to a rep 2 times and promised to call me back with a refund, no one did. All together I contacted them 7 times with no luck to get a refund. they give me the run around and promise things that do not happen. NEVER BUY FROM BUYTOPIA AGAIN. TEAMSAVE, DEAL OF THE DAY GAVE REFUNDS WITHIN 3 DAYS. BUSINESS LIKE THIS SHOULD GO BANKRUPT AND I HOPE THEY DO SOON!

No offence but buying 9 vouchers just sounds plain greedy. It sounds like Buytopia is scamming everyone just like the Butchers have.

[zoro69]

Ryan you guys are talking to is the Buytopia cofounder with anthony and Michele . Pics here when they were or are partners in a caviar company. They were at queen's until 2008
http://www.evandalecaviar.com/Evandale%20Caviar/Our%20Story.html

[Cheap]

Has anyone actually looked up the refund laws for Ontario?

Ministry of Consumer Services (http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/default.aspx)
Consumer Protection Act, 2002 (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_050017_e.htm)

There is lots of info out there, it is tough to figure out what some of it means though. There is a section on Internet agreements in the Act. I found the best info on the Ministry site regarding consumers rights that might apply here like;

Pre-paid goods or services over $50 must have a written contract

When some part of the contract occurs in the future (e.g. a gym membership), written contracts are required for goods or services worth more than $50. The contract must contain complete details of the transaction....

Under the Consumer Protection Act, 2002, you have the right to cancel an agreement and have your money returned to you if:

The vendor has made a false, misleading or deceptive representation about the goods or services you agreed to buy or lease.



Butopia, Webpiggy, etc promised so much on their wonderful coupon and could not deliver. They did not deliver what they promised and they have to be held accountable and provide refunds.
Some of the things they advertised with this deal that for many, were simply not true;

Incredible selection including aged steaks, kangaroo, crocodile & more

Valid Tuesday-Friday 8am-8pm

E-Mail for delivery; allow 5 business days for response

May redeem 1 voucher per visit; 2 vouchers per delivery


It looks like they may have had success in getting refunds over on the Gladius thread. I'll post the main points here in case someone wants to try it to get a refund.

1. Send by fax, registered mail, or courier, a letter to the group buy company stating you want a refund and to cancel the contract. The Ministry provides samples here. (http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/Cancel_a_Contract.aspx)
2. Wait 15 days, if you get a cheque in the mail or you have a credit on your cc you're done. If not;
3. File a complaint with the Ministry (http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/Complaint_Steps_to_File.aspx) against the group buy company.
4. Try again to get a charge back done on your cc with the paperwork you collected so far.

I'm sure there are other reasons that apply here that could be used to cancel the contract. I don't really know what applies to what, I'm not a lawyer. You shouldn't have to be to get a refund when a company takes advantage of you like this. The Ministry talks about wording on contracts being clear and the consumer being given the benefit of the doubt where something is not. Who knows, "by law" could just be some catchy advertising slogan for the Ministry. I am sure the group buy companies will argue that these rules don't apply to them and they aren't responsible, they only sold the voucher, whatever. The bottom line is they sold you a worthless piece of paper so if they won't give you a refund let the Ministry decide what laws they broke.

[00cp]

Cheap; I'm hiring you as my on-call legal counsel ;)

[JusticeToronto10]

I contacted my Credit Card company and the Consumer Protection Agency. I will escalate further if I am not provided a full refund immediately. They are in full violation of all of the conditions on the voucher. If they had been able to provide the service they were selling I wouldn't be asking for a refund, but they have provided nothing but a headache. I don't think The Butcher or Buytopia are capable of running a little kids Kool Aid Stand.

If you haven't contacted everyone for a full refund, what are you waiting for? Before the butcher flies off to Switzerland with your money, get it back.

He mentions all of these customers they have, I doubt it. They are all scammers!

[BillySue]

K, guys, I got my refund from Buytopia. Praise the Lord, hallelujah! I did have to get pretty whiny to make it happen though.

[Love2Snack]

Tried calling the Butcher store a few times today and yesterday. Just rang and rang and then disconnected. No more answering machine and no more Butcher it looks like. I guess they have flown the coop

The website says to check back in to see when reno's will be done but there is no information.

[00cp]

While not originally a scam in conception, Marlon's execution in the end was almost perfection...

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/14626218/2/istockphoto_14626218-businessman-holding-a-bag-of-money.jpgl

[Annie21]

I, too, have been trying unsuccessfully to get a response back from Buytopia on this scam. I've left 2 phone messages and sent 1 email, all to no avail. My next step is to send a registered letter, but I'm not holding out much hope. BillySue - how did you manage to get your refund from Buytopia? Are there others out there who were also successful - I'd love to hear how you got through.

I tried with Mastercard to see if I could dispute the purchase, but I was told I had to wait until the coupon has expired! Imagine how successful that would be, especially since The Butchers' website now says they are closed indefinitely for "renovation". I find it extremely suspicious that when I first sent in an email order in mid-May, I was told they were not accepting any more orders until June 23rd. Then, last week, the website said there were new reduced hours for voucher holders beginning June 23rd (whereas the week before, they said the new policy was already in effect). Interesting that this is the same date - I would bet my voucher that this closure was long in the plans!

I certainly won't be buying anymore vouchers from Buytopia. If all those in the same situation contacted each merchant featured in a new Buytopia deal to let them know we are boycotting Buytopia until they stand behind their vouchers, maybe we'd get some results!

[BillySue]

Tried calling the Butcher store a few times today and yesterday. Just rang and rang and then disconnected. No more answering machine and no more Butcher it looks like. I guess they have flown the coop

The website says to check back in to see when reno's will be done but there is no information.

Weird...I called this afternoon just for fun and they picked up right away. They're still in the coop.

It would really suck if they did end up closing just because a few people (who may or may not have been telling the truth) posted stuff on the internet a few months ago and caused some people to go crazy and a bunch more to get scared of losing money. They're not scammers, they just messed up with these deals. Protecting ourselves from getting screwed over is one thing, but malicious comments - referring to some other posts on this thread - are inappropriate.

[JusticeToronto10]

BILLYSUE must be posting directly Marlon Madoff's new headquarters in Switzerland.

SImply put, they advertised and sold a product and failed to deliver on it intentionally and now the majority are not getting refunds from Buytopia. That is illegal, it is fraud. And I'd be shocked if there weren't more lawsuits on Buytopia and the Butchers by the end of this.

The smart deal sites refunded people, no questions asked.

Billysue, please do get a clue.

[00cp]

BillySue; its quite obvious you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Best advice for you is to move along..

[sillysimms]

60 users browsing this thread right now - 47 guests! Ellen Roseman wrote about group deals today (focusing mainly on another 'scam' I also read about on RFD). She included a small bit about The Butchers and linked to this thread today which likely brought in some extra traffic:

From the article: The savvy shoppers at RedFlagDeals are usually ahead of the curve on corporate mistakes. - definitely the case in this instance. It was predicted long ago.

http://www.moneyville.ca/blog/post/1014434--firing-range-coupon-deal-backfired-on-buyers?bn=1

[mabman]

when is the fish store opening ? its about a month overdue isn't it ?

[kator]

when is the fish store opening ? its about a month overdue isn't it ?

my guess is that's not gonna happen either.

[BillySue]

BILLYSUE must be posting directly Marlon Madoff's new headquarters in Switzerland.

SImply put, they advertised and sold a product and failed to deliver on it intentionally and now the majority are not getting refunds from Buytopia. That is illegal, it is fraud. And I'd be shocked if there weren't more lawsuits on Buytopia and the Butchers by the end of this.

The smart deal sites refunded people, no questions asked.

Billysue, please do get a clue.

It would appear that Billy Sue does indeed have a clue because Billy Sue got a refund. It's sad to see that your maturity and insight into the situation are deficient and, instead of...ehem, getting a clue, you want to find your next target to pick on anonymously. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Fight The Man! You go start your Fight The Man club with 00cp in your treehouse.

[callitasicit]

Weird...I called this afternoon just for fun and they picked up right away. They're still in the coop.

It would really suck if they did end up closing just because a few people (who may or may not have been telling the truth) posted stuff on the internet a few months ago and caused some people to go crazy and a bunch more to get scared of losing money. They're not scammers, they just messed up with these deals. Protecting ourselves from getting screwed over is one thing, but malicious comments - referring to some other posts on this thread - are inappropriate.

Do your research BillySue, I am hoping you haven't or you wouldn't be posting such comments on here!

[callitasicit]

It would appear that Billy Sue does indeed have a clue because Billy Sue got a refund. It's sad to see that your maturity and insight into the situation are deficient and, instead of...ehem, getting a clue, you want to find your next target to pick on anonymously. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Fight The Man! You go start your Fight The Man club with 00cp in your treehouse.

It would appear that BillySue has only eight posts, all perhaps at the same time The Butchers needed defending.

[kator]

Weird...I called this afternoon just for fun and they picked up right away. They're still in the coop.

It would really suck if they did end up closing just because a few people (who may or may not have been telling the truth) posted stuff on the internet a few months ago and caused some people to go crazy and a bunch more to get scared of losing money. They're not scammers, they just messed up with these deals. Protecting ourselves from getting screwed over is one thing, but malicious comments - referring to some other posts on this thread - are inappropriate.

i would totally agree with you if they had run one deal, maybe two. but instead, they ran an unheard of 10 deals, with basically every deal site in toronto. which is stupid, greedy and actually violates the non-compete clauses most of those companies have.

oh, and the whole thing about them passing off factory farmed meat as organic or naturally raised (http://www.k4t3.org/2011/04/02/the-dark-side-of-online-group-coupons/#updates) is also a pretty crap thing to do, since many people eat organic for ethical reasons. he's literally selling suffering to make a quick buck.

[Cheap]

Weird...I called this afternoon just for fun and they picked up right away. They're still in the coop.

It would really suck if they did end up closing just because a few people (who may or may not have been telling the truth) posted stuff on the internet a few months ago and caused some people to go crazy and a bunch more to get scared of losing money. They're not scammers, they just messed up with these deals. Protecting ourselves from getting screwed over is one thing, but malicious comments - referring to some other posts on this thread - are inappropriate.

I was over by Yonge st today, The Butchers is open. I figured the notice was to have a reason not to open in the evenings for voucher holders. There was a couple of people in the store, the display cases looked pretty empty. There were no notices up about vouchers that I could see.

If they are not scammers and just messed up these deals as you say, then wouldn't they refund the vouchers rather than continue to lose money on them. Would you agree with Marlon's decision now that he has admitted he screwed up, that the best way to solve this is for Marlon to renovate his store so that he can impress the voucher holders?

[Annie21]

Weird...I called this afternoon just for fun and they picked up right away. They're still in the coop.

It would really suck if they did end up closing just because a few people (who may or may not have been telling the truth) posted stuff on the internet a few months ago and caused some people to go crazy and a bunch more to get scared of losing money. They're not scammers, they just messed up with these deals. Protecting ourselves from getting screwed over is one thing, but malicious comments - referring to some other posts on this thread - are inappropriate.

I tried one more time to get through to Buytopia just now, and this time, my call was actually answered. According to the person I spoke with, Buytopia is in the process of hiring more people to deal with the callbacks required. Any guess on how many of the complaints relate to this particular deal? I commend Buytopia for at least recognizing there is an issue here and ramping up their staff.
However, the conclusion was that this person was not authorized to give a refund for the voucher because more than 30 days have passed since I purchased it. He told me that the Butchers voucher date would be extended by 3 months to August 2012. I complained that I was not able to get my email order filled in May, and he said that when they reopen the store, Buytopia voucher holders can send their orders for the meat directly to Buytopia. He said Buytopia has spoken with the merchant and they will pass on the orders and follow up to ensure the delivery is made. I said that didn't really give me a lot of confidence since my emails to Buytopia about my complaints have gone unanswered. He offered to increase the value of my voucher by 15% to compensate for some of my troubles. Of course, 15% of nothing is still 0, so I asked to speak with someone who would be authorized to issue a refund. Now I have been added to a list of people waiting for a call back from the "refund department". In my opinion, the terms of this contract have significantly changed, so I'll continue to pursue trying for a refund.

[JusticeToronto10]

You are wasting your time dealing with Buytopia, hiring more people to deal with the refunds when they aren't provided them is like Marlon saying we need to reduce hours because of rude people. That has Scam written on it.

As far as the 30 days goes, they are in violation of their own terms in writing. They have not provided goods even though they have your money and they aren't willing to give it back. This is all very illegal. In Canada it is law when you purchase something, you must receive your goods in return.

[callitasicit]

I tried one more time to get through to Buytopia just now, and this time, my call was actually answered. According to the person I spoke with, Buytopia is in the process of hiring more people to deal with the callbacks required. Any guess on how many of the complaints relate to this particular deal? I commend Buytopia for at least recognizing there is an issue here and ramping up their staff.
However, the conclusion was that this person was not authorized to give a refund for the voucher because more than 30 days have passed since I purchased it. He told me that the Butchers voucher date would be extended by 3 months to August 2012. I complained that I was not able to get my email order filled in May, and he said that when they reopen the store, Buytopia voucher holders can send their orders for the meat directly to Buytopia. He said Buytopia has spoken with the merchant and they will pass on the orders and follow up to ensure the delivery is made. I said that didn't really give me a lot of confidence since my emails to Buytopia about my complaints have gone unanswered. He offered to increase the value of my voucher by 15% to compensate for some of my troubles. Of course, 15% of nothing is still 0, so I asked to speak with someone who would be authorized to issue a refund. Now I have been added to a list of people waiting for a call back from the "refund department". In my opinion, the terms of this contract have significantly changed, so I'll continue to pursue trying for a refund.

I would not accept anything short of a refund, would you really want to trust these guys to act as middle man for your order plus would you trust the quality of their meat anymore?

[zoro69]

Most likely they don't have the money to refund. Didn't look too hard but couldn't find any evidence they have done any kind of financing (compare to dealfind where its easy to see they raised ~$30+m)

That is the difference with the ones refunding deals no problem and those that aren't. If you raised $10s or $100s of millions its a drop in the bucket to keep your reputation. Different story if its just the owners funds.

Added problem with the butchers sales being so out of proportion with any other deals they've done. Lots of them they only sell 100 or so.

[Love2Snack]

Billie Sue is like Marlon....took the money and run...woo woo woo

[MikeJefe]

Billie Sue is like Marlon....took the money and run...woo woo woo

"BillySue" here = "Gerrard B." on Trueler = "Yongeman" on Chowhound

[JusticeToronto10]

Congrats everyone, Buytopia is providing me with a full refund. I contacted my Credit Cards Fraud dept the day before and they started investigating and I contacted the Ministry of Consumer Services and they sent a letter.

I would have done anything strictly out of principle. I wish all of you who haven't got a refund yet good luck, and keep pushing... what they did was fraudulent and they know it. I will do business with Webpiggy again, not Buytopia though... didn't appreciate the run around I got. 30 day refunds only apply if the goods are available and being served. I wouldn't trust the two to run a lemonade stand but at least they gave the refund.

[matdwyer]

I was over by Yonge st today, The Butchers is open. I figured the notice was to have a reason not to open in the evenings for voucher holders. There was a couple of people in the store, the display cases looked pretty empty. There were no notices up about vouchers that I could see.

If they are not scammers and just messed up these deals as you say, then wouldn't they refund the vouchers rather than continue to lose money on them. Would you agree with Marlon's decision now that he has admitted he screwed up, that the best way to solve this is for Marlon to renovate his store so that he can impress the voucher holders?

In all likelyhood there isn't money to give back right now.

But it doesn't mean that this was a scam - I've read every page of this, and I'm certainly not involved with it (didn't even buy one), but I'm pretty sure that this guy didn't think plan this up as a scam. He made mistakes, no doubt, 10 group deals is brutal, but he probably saw dollar signs thinking that his new 10000 customers would all come back, over and over again, etc. By the time he had to start fufilling the orders, he's out of luck.

There is no doubt in my mind that this isn't a fraud/scam. This is a case of the business just not knowing what they are getting into, and then dominos falling (in a ponzi-scheme type manner). Why would an established business with a very public figure do all of this? Is he taking a million dollars and running to the bahamas? I don't think so. I doubt he's driving around in a brand new beamer either. You feel like you were cheated and frauded out of money, but the fact is this is just a series of very poor business decisions.

That being said, if the deals actually work like the deal salesman say they would, then he'd be flying - he'd have tons of new customers, all coming back, bringing new revenue, spending more than the voucher, etc. There is a HUGE disconnect between what the business thinks the customer is going to be, and what the average coupon-clipper really is. You may take offense to this, but the average group buy dealer is a HORRIBLE customer, and I know that, because I'm one of them. My biz also ran a small group buy and you see the people that come in, they are nothing like repeat customers. None of them return, they go out of their way to get a deal, and are accustom to getting things for super cheap (who here is ever going to buy a full priced photo book again?).

If the deals worked out the way they are "advertised" to the business, these situations wouldn't happen. Obviously this guy needs a lesson in business, marketing, PR, customer service, etc... but what do you expect from a lifelong butcher? He's probably just a hardworking guy, running a family-type business with long time customers. He had this opportunity and didn't realize what he was getting himself into, and now risks losing his business.

If he was truly stealing the money thats one thing, but I think this guy is just overwhelmed and bleeding now as his full paying customers are now avoiding like the plague. This will be a case study for group buys for a long time, I've been discussing it for a year now and I wish I could have talked to this guy first! You have to structure your deals to make it work for the biz and the consumer, and he certainly didn't. If it was $10 for $40 worth of meat, capped at 2 per person, and redeemable only after 3pm every day or something you all still would have bought it, he would have been in good shape, and he could have won some customers.

And seriously before anyone says I'm sticking up for him/am him/ know him/etc look at some of my past posts, I've been quoted in national stories about how businesses should be careful with group deals and some are good, some are bad, etc.

[callitasicit]

In all likelyhood there isn't money to give back right now.

But it doesn't mean that this was a scam - I've read every page of this, and I'm certainly not involved with it (didn't even buy one), but I'm pretty sure that this guy didn't think plan this up as a scam. He made mistakes, no doubt, 10 group deals is brutal, but he probably saw dollar signs thinking that his new 10000 customers would all come back, over and over again, etc. By the time he had to start fufilling the orders, he's out of luck.

There is no doubt in my mind that this isn't a fraud/scam. This is a case of the business just not knowing what they are getting into, and then dominos falling (in a ponzi-scheme type manner). Why would an established business with a very public figure do all of this? Is he taking a million dollars and running to the bahamas? I don't think so. I doubt he's driving around in a brand new beamer either. You feel like you were cheated and frauded out of money, but the fact is this is just a series of very poor business decisions.

That being said, if the deals actually work like the deal salesman say they would, then he'd be flying - he'd have tons of new customers, all coming back, bringing new revenue, spending more than the voucher, etc. There is a HUGE disconnect between what the business thinks the customer is going to be, and what the average coupon-clipper really is. You may take offense to this, but the average group buy dealer is a HORRIBLE customer, and I know that, because I'm one of them. My biz also ran a small group buy and you see the people that come in, they are nothing like repeat customers. None of them return, they go out of their way to get a deal, and are accustom to getting things for super cheap (who here is ever going to buy a full priced photo book again?).

If the deals worked out the way they are "advertised" to the business, these situations wouldn't happen. Obviously this guy needs a lesson in business, marketing, PR, customer service, etc... but what do you expect from a lifelong butcher? He's probably just a hardworking guy, running a family-type business with long time customers. He had this opportunity and didn't realize what he was getting himself into, and now risks losing his business.

If he was truly stealing the money thats one thing, but I think this guy is just overwhelmed and bleeding now as his full paying customers are now avoiding like the plague. This will be a case study for group buys for a long time, I've been discussing it for a year now and I wish I could have talked to this guy first! You have to structure your deals to make it work for the biz and the consumer, and he certainly didn't. If it was $10 for $40 worth of meat, capped at 2 per person, and redeemable only after 3pm every day or something you all still would have bought it, he would have been in good shape, and he could have won some customers.

And seriously before anyone says I'm sticking up for him/am him/ know him/etc look at some of my past posts, I've been quoted in national stories about how businesses should be careful with group deals and some are good, some are bad, etc.

You raise some good points but I think what many consumers were most upset with was his lack of accountability and humility when this first went horribly wrong. He has treated the customers with the voucher coupons like second class citizens and has handled the whole situation very poorly!

[Manatus]

In all likelyhood there isn't money to give back right now.

But it doesn't mean that this was a scam - I've read every page of this, and I'm certainly not involved with it (didn't even buy one), but I'm pretty sure that this guy didn't think plan this up as a scam. He made mistakes, no doubt, 10 group deals is brutal, but he probably saw dollar signs thinking that his new 10000 customers would all come back, over and over again, etc. By the time he had to start fufilling the orders, he's out of luck.

There is no doubt in my mind that this isn't a fraud/scam. This is a case of the business just not knowing what they are getting into, and then dominos falling (in a ponzi-scheme type manner). Why would an established business with a very public figure do all of this? Is he taking a million dollars and running to the bahamas? I don't think so. I doubt he's driving around in a brand new beamer either. You feel like you were cheated and frauded out of money, but the fact is this is just a series of very poor business decisions.

That being said, if the deals actually work like the deal salesman say they would, then he'd be flying - he'd have tons of new customers, all coming back, bringing new revenue, spending more than the voucher, etc. There is a HUGE disconnect between what the business thinks the customer is going to be, and what the average coupon-clipper really is. You may take offense to this, but the average group buy dealer is a HORRIBLE customer, and I know that, because I'm one of them. My biz also ran a small group buy and you see the people that come in, they are nothing like repeat customers. None of them return, they go out of their way to get a deal, and are accustom to getting things for super cheap (who here is ever going to buy a full priced photo book again?).

If the deals worked out the way they are "advertised" to the business, these situations wouldn't happen. Obviously this guy needs a lesson in business, marketing, PR, customer service, etc... but what do you expect from a lifelong butcher? He's probably just a hardworking guy, running a family-type business with long time customers. He had this opportunity and didn't realize what he was getting himself into, and now risks losing his business.

If he was truly stealing the money thats one thing, but I think this guy is just overwhelmed and bleeding now as his full paying customers are now avoiding like the plague. This will be a case study for group buys for a long time, I've been discussing it for a year now and I wish I could have talked to this guy first! You have to structure your deals to make it work for the biz and the consumer, and he certainly didn't. If it was $10 for $40 worth of meat, capped at 2 per person, and redeemable only after 3pm every day or something you all still would have bought it, he would have been in good shape, and he could have won some customers.

And seriously before anyone says I'm sticking up for him/am him/ know him/etc look at some of my past posts, I've been quoted in national stories about how businesses should be careful with group deals and some are good, some are bad, etc.

I agree. In a way this is similar to the beginnings of the Internet as a marketplace. Many businesses simply didn't understand its use as a tool and jumped on board because it was growing so fast and everyone wanted a piece. I especially like your part about how nobody is going to pay full price for a photo book - right now there is a glut of cheap deals. There are more than 10 popular sites each with more than one deal every day. There's no chance for customers to stick with a place, because there's always a better deal out there. If I really like a restaurant, am I going to go back tomorrow? Maybe, but more likely I'll say "hey, there's another place with a $20 for $40 deal, let's try that one". If there are too many sales, you feel ripped off if you pay regular price. Sooner or later businesses will wisen up and the number of deals will decline dramatically, and at that point they will be a useful advertising tool again... but right now, it's just a race to the bottom. All they're doing is giving away profits, because the second your deal is done, everyone is going to flock to one of the 10+ other deals that are very similar to yours, and you'll have gained nothing in the long run.

[Cheap]

In all likelyhood there isn't money to give back right now.

Would you still agree with everything you wrote in your post after the first line if you knew he did have money to give back to those that wanted it and chose not to?

It is interesting to hear Marlon speak about the money he lost selling the vouchers. I think some people hear it and believe it without giving it much thought. The fact is he MADE money selling the vouchers. He doesn't lose money until people redeem them. As long as he doesn't redeem them, he gets to keep the money. He has done very little redeeming in the past month and deliveries were cut off ages ago. If you don't understand that the loss occurs on redemption, then your observations and conclusions will be seriously flawed.

The Butchers were supposed to be open last night for voucher holders. The notice said they had to cancel the previous weeks because of a problem with the refrigeration. Last night was cancelled because of a notice saying that they were closing for renovations. It didn't say when, just that they would close for renovations. If the store was open yesterday for people paying cash, why was it not open Thurs and Fri to voucher holders? Why is the store closed to voucher holders until the renovation is finished, but they are open to cash customers until the renovations start?

Where did the money come from for this renovation? If he had $50,000 to spend on the renovation, that money could refund around 1000 people. Remember he is spending money on the renovations so that he can once again redeem the vouchers, which will cost him yet more money. That is his claim, but when you consider his track record is it likely to happen?

You are naive thinking that it could have been structured better, etc. They did many deals, they could have fixed all the mistakes from previous deals as they went along, yet the last deal was as flawed as the first. He said he sold the vouchers to introduce people to his store, but he let them buy $4000 of his product at a huge discount. Was that in case people weren't sure if they liked it after the first $3000 worth? If selling unlimited amounts of coupons are a mistake then why did he make the same mistake over and over again and never correct it? Either he is really really stupid, or it wasn't a mistake. The last deals were structured perfectly to deliver maximum voucher sales. So Marlin, with the experience of several group buys under his belt fails to structure a deal that makes sense from a business standpoint but coincidentally comes up with a formula to put massive amounts of money into his pocket from 1 sale.

If you have read this whole thread then you should understand this as well as anyone. I don't believe this was planned from the start either. As Marlon said this was new to him and he was learning. I do think that what he learned from doing the group buy deals answers any questions about "why would the guy jeopardise his business" or, "he didn't flee", etc, etc. Marlon learned early on in this that he didn't have to deliver on what was advertised. Look at all the posts that describe similar bad experiences. The first thing to go was the Organic claim, the chicken is grain fed, the same you can get everywhere except for the price. As time went by Marlon figured out what he could get away with, it may have even surprised him how little fuss people put up.

He was able to put limits on the vouchers on the spot in the store to discourage people from using the full value. When people became angry in the store over the deal Marlon had the police remove them. He used this as an excuse to close to voucher holders and limit hours to "address security" People that did get deliveries almost always said that half of it was missing. Nobody, except the op wrote about getting game meat. I read about many people wanting to use their vouchers for this but I don't see where anyone did.

When people asked in the store about an item they were told to order it online. If they ordered it online and it didn't show up, people were told to come to the store to select it. People posted about waiting all day for deliveries that never came. People posted about getting nothing but ground beef, chicken, kabobs, or sausages.

Marlon and the group buy people keep saying that 20-30% of the vouchers are never redeemed. I'm sure by using these tactics he was able to get this number much higher. He probably thought after the first few sales that he could offer huge savings and still make a profit by making it difficult to use the vouchers and stock cheaper products for the vouchers he did have to accept.

A telling fact would be the store's purchase ratio of these cheaper products to higher priced ones before and after the group buy deals. If the cheaper product was half of his sales before the deals but he started ordering a higher percentage than 50% after the sale it certainly would place Marlon in a bad light. It's hard to believe people would buy these vouchers and only want to use them for burgers and chicken unless that was all they had to choose from.

Do you really think it's right for Marlon to hold onto peoples money, and deny them the opportunity to use the vouchers, all because he made a mistake, and got in over his head?

[CSK'sMom]

And to add another very plausible reason why vouchers aren't being accepted...

We were in to our local butcher today who we happen to know well. He was saying that he hadn't received his price list from Dominion for the upcoming week as of yet and he usually has it first thing Sat mornings. He knows from experience that means beef prices have risen again. His other supplier had just phoned him to tell him he hadn't bought a single animal at Cookstown this past week. Prices were way up due to Americans coming over and bidding them up. Beef on the hoof and processed is up and rising again. Now why on earth would The Butchers choose to allow coupon holders to redeem when they are already loosing money. The rising prices means even more of a loss... ;) I wouldn't expect redemption for coupon holders to start again for at least a few weeks, if not till later in the summer at the earliest with the way beef prices are currently...

[Rehan]

You are naive thinking that it could have been structured better, etc. They did many deals, they could have fixed all the mistakes from previous deals as they went along, yet the last deal was as flawed as the first. He said he sold the vouchers to introduce people to his store, but he let them buy $4000 of his product at a huge discount. Was that in case people weren't sure if they liked it after the first $3000 worth? If selling unlimited amounts of coupons are a mistake then why did he make the same mistake over and over again and never correct it? Either he is really really stupid, or it wasn't a mistake. The last deals were structured perfectly to deliver maximum voucher sales. So Marlin, with the experience of several group buys under his belt fails to structure a deal that makes sense from a business standpoint but coincidentally comes up with a formula to put massive amounts of money into his pocket from 1 sale. +1
This is very very important in terms of his intent, at least with respect to the later deals.

If what he really wanted to do was to introduce new customers to his store, then the deals would have been completely different. That is just common sense, and the idea that it's some new kind of marketing method has nothing to do with it.

[Bookpreviews]

Ministry of Consumer Services (http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/default.aspx)
Consumer Protection Act, 2002 (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_050017_e.htm)

There is lots of info out there, it is tough to figure out what some of it means though. There is a section on Internet agreements in the Act. I found the best info on the Ministry site regarding consumers rights that might apply here like;

Pre-paid goods or services over $50 must have a written contract

When some part of the contract occurs in the future (e.g. a gym membership), written contracts are required for goods or services worth more than $50. The contract must contain complete details of the transaction....

Under the Consumer Protection Act, 2002, you have the right to cancel an agreement and have your money returned to you if:

The vendor has made a false, misleading or deceptive representation about the goods or services you agreed to buy or lease.



Some of the things they advertised with this deal that for many, were simply not true;

Incredible selection including aged steaks, kangaroo, crocodile & more

Valid Tuesday-Friday 8am-8pm

E-Mail for delivery; allow 5 business days for response

May redeem 1 voucher per visit; 2 vouchers per delivery


It looks like they may have had success in getting refunds over on the Gladius thread. I'll post the main points here in case someone wants to try it to get a refund.

1. Send by fax, registered mail, or courier, a letter to the group buy company stating you want a refund and to cancel the contract. The Ministry provides samples here. (http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/Cancel_a_Contract.aspx)
2. Wait 15 days, if you get a cheque in the mail or you have a credit on your cc you're done. If not;
3. File a complaint with the Ministry (http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/Complaint_Steps_to_File.aspx) against the group buy company.
4. Try again to get a charge back done on your cc with the paperwork you collected so far.

I'm sure there are other reasons that apply here that could be used to cancel the contract. I don't really know what applies to what, I'm not a lawyer. You shouldn't have to be to get a refund when a company takes advantage of you like this. The Ministry talks about wording on contracts being clear and the consumer being given the benefit of the doubt where something is not. Who knows, "by law" could just be some catchy advertising slogan for the Ministry. I am sure the group buy companies will argue that these rules don't apply to them and they aren't responsible, they only sold the voucher, whatever. The bottom line is they sold you a worthless piece of paper so if they won't give you a refund let the Ministry decide what laws they broke.

-----------------
I wasn't sure the fax one worked?
I know when I had an issue with Direct Energy trying to scam me (they forged documents...I never signed anything).
My CC company said it has to be a registered letter.

And also when my former dentist tried to bill me for services I never used, a fax or several faxes never worked...no response.
dropping off a letter..again they ignored that (they are in the mall i go to).
So in that case the lawyer I know even told me that sending a registered letter they have to reply or else further action can be taken (didn't ask him about that as i did not want to pay any legal fees,lol).

Well, this whole butchers thing seems very complicated.
hopefully there is not a butchers #2 in ottawa soon...

[Cheap]

-----------------
I wasn't sure the fax one worked?
I know when I had an issue with Direct Energy trying to scam me (they forged documents...I never signed anything).
My CC company said it has to be a registered letter.

And also when my former dentist tried to bill me for services I never used, a fax or several faxes never worked...no response.
dropping off a letter..again they ignored that (they are in the mall i go to).
So in that case the lawyer I know even told me that sending a registered letter they have to reply or else further action can be taken (didn't ask him about that as i did not want to pay any legal fees,lol).

Well, this whole butchers thing seems very complicated.
hopefully there is not a butchers #2 in ottawa soon...

Different people/companies have different requirements. Since this is about complaints that are overseen by the Ministry I posted their instructions;

Sign the letter and send it by registered mail, fax or courier.

I have read in places where the Ministry says email is good enough, but in this case it was not mentioned.

[matdwyer]

Would you still agree with everything you wrote in your post after the first line if you knew he did have money to give back to those that wanted it and chose not to?

On a moral level, no. On a business level, yes.




It is interesting to hear Marlon speak about the money he lost selling the vouchers. I think some people hear it and believe it without giving it much thought. The fact is he MADE money selling the vouchers. He doesn't lose money until people redeem them. As long as he doesn't redeem them, he gets to keep the money. He has done very little redeeming in the past month and deliveries were cut off ages ago. If you don't understand that the loss occurs on redemption, then your observations and conclusions will be seriously flawed.

I fully understand that the loss comes at the time of redemption - again, he should have structured it with smaller values, as if he's giving away $300 worth of retail (maybe $100 worth of cost?) then he's going to be struggling with the numbers that he sold. Is he delaying purposely to spread out his losses? Maybe. Is he making money from his "regular" customers right now in order to pay staff/rent/overhead? probably, but significantly less than normal.




The Butchers were supposed to be open last night for voucher holders. The notice said they had to cancel the previous weeks because of a problem with the refrigeration. Last night was cancelled because of a notice saying that they were closing for renovations. It didn't say when, just that they would close for renovations. If the store was open yesterday for people paying cash, why was it not open Thurs and Fri to voucher holders? Why is the store closed to voucher holders until the renovation is finished, but they are open to cash customers until the renovations start?


I understand that as a customer people feel like they're second class - In my business-minded opinion here, this guy is going under unless he's selling to his regular customers concurrently with voucher customers. He probably realizes this, and if all his meat gets snaggled by his vouchers before he can sell it, he literally makes a 14% margin on his meat (assuming $100 for $400). This isn't going to cut it to pay all his costs and order more meat.

What I'm trying to say is I know it isn't right, but I'd assume the ONLY way that these vouchers get filled is if he can stay in business by spacing them out. If he tries to keep running with this craziness, the cashflow runs dry, he can't pay rent/suppliers/staff and the business goes belly up - thats a much worse situation then it is now. From what I've seen I'd assume that vouchers will "eventually" get fulfilled... but when the panic started I'm sure a TON of people tried to get it as soon as possible, hence panic and even more trouble.

Again, as a consumer I'd be concerned for my $100 - I'd feel entitled to my $400 worth of meat, or a refund from the groupbuy company. I'd fight for it. But from a business standpoint, I'd understand why I cant fulfill 10,000 vouchers. Maybe making a schedule for fulfilling vouchers and email each voucher assigning it a specific date for redemption (for delivery/pickup/etc) would work, i.e. all the "A"'s get delivery July 1-7th, email their orders by June 25th, "B"'s get it July 8-15th, etc. If he can space it out he can reduce to need to store and order JIT.




Where did the money come from for this renovation? If he had $50,000 to spend on the renovation, that money could refund around 1000 people. Remember he is spending money on the renovations so that he can once again redeem the vouchers, which will cost him yet more money. That is his claim, but when you consider his track record is it likely to happen?



I'd say he's into personal savings right now, but who's business is that? Let's assume it is in fact a corporation - he files for bankruptcy and literally walks away from this entire mess and leaves you with nothing. Then what? You get nothing. At all. And he walks away clean to start a butcher shop in whoknowswhere, saskatchewan. The fact that he's trying to make this work shows me he's not doing this intentionally and is just WAY over his head.




You are naive thinking that it could have been structured better, etc. They did many deals, they could have fixed all the mistakes from previous deals as they went along, yet the last deal was as flawed as the first. He said he sold the vouchers to introduce people to his store, but he let them buy $4000 of his product at a huge discount. Was that in case people weren't sure if they liked it after the first $3000 worth? If selling unlimited amounts of coupons are a mistake then why did he make the same mistake over and over again and never correct it? Either he is really really stupid, or it wasn't a mistake. The last deals were structured perfectly to deliver maximum voucher sales. So Marlin, with the experience of several group buys under his belt fails to structure a deal that makes sense from a business standpoint but coincidentally comes up with a formula to put massive amounts of money into his pocket from 1 sale.



No idea what was going through his head - I also don't know the timeframe that the deals ran (6 months between the 1st and last? No idea). Maybe he didn't understand the implications, already signed on for deals, etc. I don't know the massive money standpoint, as he openly said that he got 60%... so the $100 turns into $60, and he has to produce $400 worth of meat. Again I don't know specifics, but lets say that he had 10,000 buys in total. Now he has $600,000 paid to him in three installments (assuming deal companies are smart). Up front he gets about $200,000. That buys him what, a month of operating costs? I've never been in there, but lets assume 10 staff @ 36k a year, so 30k, overhead at $10k, and paying his supplier $160k to get a crapload of meat. He gets better deals as he's buying bigger, etc. That 160k in meat retails for a maximum of what, $400k? So now he has to deal with the vouchers & real customers with that 400k worth of stock. Works OK until he realizes vouchers are redeeming too quick and he isn't able to give meat to full paying customers... uh-oh, his "Regular" money that has been supporting his business for years is now walking down the street. That's the opposite of what he wants. He starts giving excuses to filter the vouchers out of his store to specific times so he can handle everyone else ( I think this isn't good to do after the deal, for the record)




If you have read this whole thread then you should understand this as well as anyone. I don't believe this was planned from the start either. As Marlon said this was new to him and he was learning. I do think that what he learned from doing the group buy deals answers any questions about "why would the guy jeopardise his business" or, "he didn't flee", etc, etc. Marlon learned early on in this that he didn't have to deliver on what was advertised. Look at all the posts that describe similar bad experiences. The first thing to go was the Organic claim, the chicken is grain fed, the same you can get everywhere except for the price. As time went by Marlon figured out what he could get away with, it may have even surprised him how little fuss people put up.



No idea about the organic, etc. No idea if it is now, so isn't really right for me to comment on it. It's wrong if he's passing non-organic as organic, of course.




He was able to put limits on the vouchers on the spot in the store to discourage people from using the full value. When people became angry in the store over the deal Marlon had the police remove them. He used this as an excuse to close to voucher holders and limit hours to "address security" People that did get deliveries almost always said that half of it was missing. Nobody, except the op wrote about getting game meat. I read about many people wanting to use their vouchers for this but I don't see where anyone did.



I'm sure voucher holders were upset, and he shouldn't have retroactively changed things, but if thats the only way he can survive his business, it is better then him closing shop and taking your money for good, imo. Again, no idea about the game.

[matdwyer]

When people asked in the store about an item they were told to order it online. If they ordered it online and it didn't show up, people were told to come to the store to select it. People posted about waiting all day for deliveries that never came. People posted about getting nothing but ground beef, chicken, kabobs, or sausages.



That is his fault. Online orders with JIT is how this entire deal should have been, he could have effectively done that like this, as I mentioned above.




Marlon and the group buy people keep saying that 20-30% of the vouchers are never redeemed. I'm sure by using these tactics he was abe to get this number much higher. He probably thought after the first few sales that he could offer huge savings and still make a profit by making it difficult to use the vouchers and stock cheaper products for the vouchers he did have to accept



I highly doubt he's making a profit at all. The numbers just don't make sense.




A telling fact would be the store's purchase ratio of these cheaper products to higher priced ones before and after the group buy deals. If the cheaper product was half of his sales before the deals but he started ordering a higher percentage than 50% after the sale it certainly would place Marlon in a bad light. It's hard to believe people would buy these vouchers and only want to use them for burgers and chicken unless that was all they had to choose from.



Hard for me to comment without knowing what the stock was before and what it is now. Again, online ordering with spaced out JIT deliver is what would fix this now. Eliminate all this chaos at the store and keep the regulars going strong.





Do you really think it's right for Marlon to hold onto peoples money, and deny them the opportunity to use the vouchers, all because he made a mistake, and got in over his head?



Nope, I don't think it is right. But I think it would be even worse if he had closed up shop and wasn't doing anything. He seems to be trying to keep this going (although make things difficult, for sure). If he ends up full out denying vouchers 100% then absolutely it is wrong. But he's openly saying that you can redeem, just not now. Again, he should even know tell people that they can redeem in succession to space it out, but he's got a tough road ahead.


+1
This is very very important in terms of his intent, at least with respect to the later deals.

If what he really wanted to do was to introduce new customers to his store, then the deals would have been completely different. That is just common sense, and the idea that it's some new kind of marketing method has nothing to do with it.

Agreed. He didn't do it properly. I think he saw all the good in the deals and none of the bad side. I did too when I ran mine, but luckily it didn't sting nearly as bad. I'm sure the deal companies saw the past success and jumped on it as fast as they could, because they just don't care. It's an easy $400,000 for them while he's stuck dealing with this mess (that he got himself into). I'm glad they are having to deal with it as well.

TL;DR, he should make clear redemption times for voucherholders and space them out over the next year, do delivery or pickup for prepackaged orders with JIT delivery, and completely eliminate walk-in voucher orders to allow him to keep his regular business intact.

[Cheap]

that

That hurt to read. I think its best if we agree to disagree.

He sold around $6 million worth of vouchers
the revenue from the sales was around $2 million
Marlon made around $1 million

You based your numbers on normal business. This is not the case here, run the numbers again with ground beef and chicken at inflated prices.

You missed the point on the ratio of product.

You missed the point that people were told to order online, then select in store, whatever, as a diversion, it was not sincere.

it doesn't make sense to you because of the numbers you are using.

If you think he has spent the million he got from the sales and is now dipping into his own money, I don't agree.

If you think he would use his personal money to renovate his store and redeem the rest of the vouchers, well.............

[zoro69]

Its pretty naive to think this was ever on the up and up. Its not an accident that he kept offering (very limited) opportunity to redeem...until he got all the money from the deal companies/past their refund time, then shut it off entirely.

I said it before the last deals happened. It was done exactly as the Katz electronics thing years ago was (sans the group deal site part). Offer too good to be true deal, supply some people to build trust, come up with all kinds of excuses to stall and delay, go for the big money...never supply any more product.

The goal of all these "deals" is to get new customers...hence almost all of them have a low limit per person, often 1 or 2. So already having problems with the first ones you go ahead and offer $100 (that you get $60) for $400 worth with no limit? Even if its only $300 or $250 worth with the inflated prices, no butcher has that kind of margin, and no one who has been in business that long couldn't have been very aware what kind of problem it would cause.


He had already done a deal with buytopia $39 for $100 that sold 1500...So doing that well why would you increase the deal to $100 for $400, other then to grab as much cash as you can? . Some of the other sites said he tried to do deals with them too.

[mabman]

Another reason he let you only redeem part of the voucher at a time is that as soon as he got your voucher# I think he can say to the deal company that the voucher has been used and to immediately get the reserve payment from the deal company. He doesn't tell them that the voucher hasn't been used in full and I'm sure they weren't thinking of this scam in the quantities/size that Marlon could do. So, even if the deal company broke up payments into tranches there might have been stipulations that the store can be paid right away (or almost so) once a voucher has been redeemed.

Another red flag that people have forgotten about that was happening near the beginning of this was that he was supplying product with no printed cost/weight labels on the baggies and no total cash register receipt being printed. I know this for a fact b/c it happened to me. I had a $50 voucher and my bill came to $55 so I paid $5 cash but got no receipt and each baggie of meat had no sticker with information on it.

[Cheap]

Another red flag that people have forgotten about that was happening near the beginning of this was that he was supplying product with no printed cost/weight labels on the baggies and no total cash register receipt being printed. I know this for a fact b/c it happened to me. I had a $50 voucher and my bill came to $55 so I paid $5 cash but got no receipt and each baggie of meat had no sticker with information on it.

I didn't forget about this, I posted it was one of the things that Sean O'Shea could have shown us, had he mystery shopped the Butchers as he posted on RFD he would do.

Are you the poster who wrote that they asked for a receipt and was told to check the labels on the product? If not, someone wrote about a similar experience. It's another example of the diversions that were used to not deliver on the quality, selection, and price that was advertised with the deals.

[YLSF]

Another red flag that people have forgotten about that was happening near the beginning of this was that he was supplying product with no printed cost/weight labels on the baggies and no total cash register receipt being printed. I know this for a fact b/c it happened to me. I had a $50 voucher and my bill came to $55 so I paid $5 cash but got no receipt and each baggie of meat had no sticker with information on it.

This happened to me as well, and that is why he has been reported to Canada Revenue Agency. I suggest others with similar experiences do the same. I am guessing that is part of his "scam". If he isn't submitting the appropriate taxes (but still charging them) on these voucher amounts (the lady calculated it out on a calculator and not on a register when i was there). Also, if he isn't running through the register not only is he not collecting/submitting HST he isn't taking into account the revenue from the deal sites correctly. The process is very easy to file a complaint with CRA. Here is a website link with the appropriate contact info:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/gncy/nvstgtns/lds-eng.html

Here is the Ontario info:

Ontario Region Informant Leads Centre

Tel.: 905-984-4830
Tel.: 1-866-809-6841 (toll free)
Fax: 905-984-4829

Mail:
Ontario Region Informant Leads Centre
St. Catharines Tax Services Office
32 Church Street
Post Office Box 3038
St. Catharines ON L2R 3B9

Hours of service: 8:15 a.m to 4:30 p.m. (local time).

The more information they have to work with the better they can do their job.

[00cp]

Good one YLSF.

People... remember... if you think its too much to take 5 mins to send an e-mail to the CRA, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. Apathy is never an excuse, so if you've posted on RFD complaining about being scammed and haven't sent a complaint to the CRA or the Ministry... YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

This isn't "everyone else will complain so I don't need to"..... Remember; power in numbers. If you don't help you no one will

[zoro69]

Do they sell anything that is hst taxable?

I doubt hes hiding revenue from the deal sites, it would be way harder to pull anything with large amounts transferred from the deal sites all a once then individual cash sales. Maybe if you pay a little on top of the voucher, but I cant imagine what else could be going on being hst isnt applicable.

[YLSF]

Do they sell anything that is hst taxable?

I doubt hes hiding revenue from the deal sites, it would be way harder to pull anything with large amounts transferred from the deal sites all a once then individual cash sales. Maybe if you pay a little on top of the voucher, but I cant imagine what else could be going on being hst isnt applicable.

Yeah, it is true that the meat items don't have hst regardless he still should be issuing receipts. Since they stopped selling the pre-packed items and other items that may have had hst applicable on them, maybe it isn't as much an issue but I will leave that up to CRA to investigate. Seems odd that there are multiple reports of being not getting receipts.

[Tamarlane]

I am new here but have read all the pages concerning this slow motion train wreck. Disclosure: I have bought no coupons but I am a free range beef farmer N of the GTA and was introduced to this issue by a friend who gave me the G&M article back in April(?) asking my opinion on the 'deal'.
My take is that this whole situation is the result of a 'smarty-pants' guy (Marlon), who underestimated only the power of the internet, not the results of multiple group deals.
He clearly lies, deflects and in my opinion thinks that people are in the whole stupid, or more accurately not as smart as he is.
To read the information just from his own words and how he contradicts himself gives me reason to have the above opinion, eg: during the CBC interview he counters the question of whether he is going out of business by stating something along the line of " we are not going out of business, in fact we are planning an awesome renovation in July". Fast forward to his website posting and this 'awesome reno' morphs into his concientious solution to this unforeseen turn of events.
The police ruse, bait and switch with non organics, cheaper meats, price boosts, restricted hours, convenient breakdowns etc.. does not wash.
The straw that broke it for me however was and is his arrogant stance throughout all this. Despite some crocodile tears in an audio and a limited mea culpa on his latest web comment akin to " we screwed up five times in a row and finally realized that we couldn't do it a sixth time" [ probably because the group dealers wouldn't touch this hot potato] doesn't allow me to feel much sympathy for him.
Despite all this, I hope that he finds a way out of this fix but his attitude doesn't bode well for such a result, neither do the economics.
If some group companies sue him for breach of contract or the tax people come after him for the money ( that is all they care about) then as a prudent businessman he would have no choice but to pull up the tent pegs and 'skeedaddle'.
My two pesos- Cheers

[xstatik]

I'm glad I didn't fall for this scam but I've learned two things..
1. Never ever go to the Butchers (I've never even heard of them before, but now will make an effort to spread the bad word and not spend money there)
2. Never buy from a groupon, wagjag etc deal. (a friend bought a winery tour voucher from wagjag and the entire experience was a waste of time and a rip off)

[dealzuser]

I'm glad I didn't fall for this scam but I've learned two things..

2. Never buy from a groupon, wagjag etc deal. (a friend bought a winery tour voucher from wagjag and the entire experience was a waste of time and a rip off)




I wouldn't paint all deal sites with the same brush. I would still buy from Groupon / Living Social / Teambuy / DealFind / Wagjag / Webpiggy, depending on the deal. If it's a meal, then it's less likely to get ripped off on those, or lose too much. But your point is taken regarding services based deals (i.e. tours). That can be delivered in an underwhelming way, which is to the vendor's detriment, as this is meant for consumers to try out the service and they ought to put their best foot forward.

That said, if I were a vendor, I would not undersell my service via daily deals. The market is just saturated with too many of these, not only deal providers, but just the number of deals. It used to be 1 deal per day. Now, it's multiple deals per municipalities per day, multiplied by countless deal providers. It only cheapens the product, as consumers will just move to the next deal rather than return to the vendor that offered it before.

[catwalk]

I'm glad I didn't fall for this scam but I've learned two things..
2. Never buy from a groupon, wagjag etc deal. (a friend bought a winery tour voucher from wagjag and the entire experience was a waste of time and a rip off)
Why mention the two sites that had nothing to do with this scam? I'm sure Groupon & Wagjag were contacted about doing deals for this a-hole Marlon but were smart enough to say NO.


I am new here but have read all the pages concerning this slow motion train wreck. Disclosure: I have bought no coupons but I am a free range beef farmer N of the GTA and was introduced to this issue by a friend who gave me the G&M article back in April(?) asking my opinion on the 'deal'.
Good to hear that this info is getting around! I'm surprised Marlon is able to get meat from anywhere considering I'm sure by now every farm knows about him & his shady dealings. Would you want your name attached to this mess? I wouldn't want people showing up at my farm trying to take a chicken straight from the source, lol ;)

[Cheap]

60 users browsing this thread right now - 47 guests! Ellen Roseman wrote about group deals today (focusing mainly on another 'scam' I also read about on RFD). She included a small bit about The Butchers and linked to this thread today which likely brought in some extra traffic:

From the article: The savvy shoppers at RedFlagDeals are usually ahead of the curve on corporate mistakes. - definitely the case in this instance. It was predicted long ago.

http://www.moneyville.ca/blog/post/1014434--firing-range-coupon-deal-backfired-on-buyers?bn=1

It's true that most RFD'ers are ahead of the curve, but there is one notable exception in the case of the Butchers.

Is Ellen taking a dig at Sean from Global? The link to the Gladius thread opens on the first post, but the link to the Butchers thread opens to a random post last Tues and at the bottom of the screen I see one of my earlier posts;

"It's a good thing Sean came on RFD to give us his professional opinion on the deal, otherwise people who bought vouchers might start to worry.

As a journalist who interviewed the proprietor and included the 100 for 400 dollar offer as part of my story on Global tonight, I didn't see the tell-tale signs of scam.
Sean O'Shea, Consumer Reporter, Global News Consumer SOS"

Probably just coincidence.

[MikeJefe]

He clearly lies, deflects and in my opinion thinks that people are in the whole stupid, or more accurately not as smart as he is.
If some group companies sue him for breach of contract or the tax people come after him for the money ( that is all they care about) then as a prudent businessman he would have no choice but to pull up the tent pegs and 'skeedaddle'.
My two pesos- Cheers

Yep, he's a victim of his own arrogance/machismo (might be cultural in nature...) He can never admit that he was wrong, failed, etc. That would be a loss of face. Like the ship captains of old, you don't get in the lifeboat, you go down with the ship. And that's exactly what he's doing.

Any other business in this kind of hot water would have shut down long ago or made an effort to do something about it (like, refunding all the vouchers to stop the bleeding). But that would be admitting failure.

So instead he keeps the ruse going, in the meantime investing the money he's made on the new store across the street. So he's still in business and never actually failed (in his eyes anyway).

Nothing short of lawsuit or tax evasion charges will force his hand, and even then that might not be enough.

[00cp]

As I said many many pages ago, Marlon's father must be real proud.

Hey, whatever happened to a portion of the voucher profits being donated to a Cancer charity? Oh, right.... more smoke up our a$$es.

[00cp]

This was just sent to me by another RFD user who was having some issues posting:

"Redflags keeps censoring my posts but I want to say this to someone who knows about the deal. I said it on Trulers site and to a few other people.

I was in there a few days ago. They had a fair bit of meat but there was not one customer. Only the owner was in. I asked him about the coupons and he said that the deal is over for good and anyone that bought a coupon should go get a refund from the site that they bought it from immediately. He said the coupon companies are not paying him any more, and so he is not honouring they deal now or ever. I know their website says differently but this is right from the bossman himself."

[YLSF]

Probably just coincidence.

Yeah, I think a coincidence. She probably just linked it to the wrong page.

[JBlue]

This was just sent to me by another RFD user who was having some issues posting:

"Redflags keeps censoring my posts but I want to say this to someone who knows about the deal. I said it on Trulers site and to a few other people.

I was in there a few days ago. They had a fair bit of meat but there was not one customer. Only the owner was in. I asked him about the coupons and he said that the deal is over for good and anyone that bought a coupon should go get a refund from the site that they bought it from immediately. He said the coupon companies are not paying him any more, and so he is not honoring they deal now or ever. I know their website says differently but this is right from the bossman himself."

WTF. Bull. He spend the $ he got on other things instead of the organic products he was suppose to sell. Leaving only left overs from the Non-Voucher customer's stock. No using every possible excuse to not commit to his obligation. I can't wait for the sites to sue him because its obvious he want no part of taking on his obligation and have used every excuse possible. I hope he gets served (edit)

[00cp]

WTF. Bull. He spend the $ he got on other things instead of the organic products he was suppose to sell. Leaving only left overs from the Non-Voucher customer's stock. No using every possible excuse to not commit to his obligation. I can't wait for the sites to sue him because its obvious he want no part of taking on his obligation and have used every excuse possible. I hope he gets serve.

http://www.nickadamsweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/dude-wait-what.jpg

[JusticeToronto10]

This was just sent to me by another RFD user who was having some issues posting:

"Redflags keeps censoring my posts but I want to say this to someone who knows about the deal. I said it on Trulers site and to a few other people.

I was in there a few days ago. They had a fair bit of meat but there was not one customer. Only the owner was in. I asked him about the coupons and he said that the deal is over for good and anyone that bought a coupon should go get a refund from the site that they bought it from immediately. He said the coupon companies are not paying him any more, and so he is not honouring they deal now or ever. I know their website says differently but this is right from the bossman himself."

I think this means it is time to runnn to your local deal company before they run out of funds. Like I said before there is not a Lemonade stand I would trust the Butcher, Marlon Madoff, or Buytopia to run!!!

[CSK'sMom]

This was just sent to me by another RFD user who was having some issues posting:

"Redflags keeps censoring my posts but I want to say this to someone who knows about the deal. I said it on Trulers site and to a few other people.

I was in there a few days ago. They had a fair bit of meat but there was not one customer. Only the owner was in. I asked him about the coupons and he said that the deal is over for good and anyone that bought a coupon should go get a refund from the site that they bought it from immediately. He said the coupon companies are not paying him any more, and so he is not honouring they deal now or ever. I know their website says differently but this is right from the bossman himself."

I just want to address this... We have not censored any posts in this thread in regards to this deal. More likely then not, the "other user" is not registered or newly registered. Unregistered posters are not allowed to post at all, new users are moderated for the first couple of posts to keep the spambots out. The other scenario is that the user is question has previously spammed the boards and is actually banned. Either way, it needs to be said we haven't censored anything with this thread. Just it being here should make that very loud and clear... ;)

[kator]

I just want to address this... We have not censored any posts in this thread in regards to this deal. More likely then not, the "other user" is not registered or newly registered. Unregistered posters are not allowed to post at all, new users are moderated for the first couple of posts to keep the spambots out. The other scenario is that the user is question has previously spammed the boards and is actually banned. Either way, it needs to be said we haven't censored anything with this thread. Just it being here should make that very loud and clear... ;)

Thanks for clarifying, I suspect that was the case. I've never had anything censored that I've posted here... unlike chowhound.

[00cp]

I just want to address this... We have not censored any posts in this thread in regards to this deal. More likely then not, the "other user" is not registered or newly registered. Unregistered posters are not allowed to post at all, new users are moderated for the first couple of posts to keep the spambots out. The other scenario is that the user is question has previously spammed the boards and is actually banned. Either way, it needs to be said we haven't censored anything with this thread. Just it being here should make that very loud and clear... ;)

Thanks for clarifying! :)

[YLSF]

Expect an article in the Toronto Star about this story again shortly.... looking forward to it...

[ThermalSME]

In case anyone is still holding on to their vouchers from webpiggy, I emailed them yesterday and they were pretty quick to credit me back my $50. They didn't offer to refund my credit card, but it's better than nothing and hopefully they'll have a reasonable deal in the future.

[kingkelly]

Yep Webpiggy refuses to give refunds now, only credit. Not good enough as most people dont just give their $100 away like that.

[JusticeToronto10]

Anything less than a full refund is unacceptable!!! Buytopia has sent an email saying to expect a refund within 10 days, if not I was just on the phone with my credit card company and they will remove the charge for me after this period expires. They will refund my money or be hit with a nice chargeback fee!

I wouldn't be accepting credit to any of these deal companies. or 50% refunds.... they scammed now refund the money or there will be consequences . Simple stuff.

[ben.lowe46@gmail.com]

I just got emails from Webpiggy customer service saying that the Butchers has been ordered by Toronto Public Health to increase "cooling storage" to accommodate the voucher holders. I was told they are closed for renovations from mid July until early August to make these changes. The voucher deadlines will be extended for the lost time. Does this sound legitimate? if this were the case, wouldn't there be a sign?

Webpiggy will not issue refunds and has offered a credit for the amount. Too bad we bought two vouchers in my family.

[zoro69]

It does not sound legitimate. Im sure the butcher has told webpiggy that to ward off them seeking refunds from him...but it doesn't add up with everything that has gone one.

[Annie21]

Mark my words folks; on June 23rd either the store goes under, changes names, or Marlon somehow becomes no longer involved. Remember that date... something will happen on (or before) June 23rd.

I just recently discovered this forum (unfortunately after my money went to Marlon's coffers) and now I'm catching up on the whole saga as it unfolded on the forum.

Did anyone else notice that the City Health inspection on June 21st did not go well? And then on June 23rd, it was given the green light.

http://app.toronto.ca/food2/DineSafeMain?userRequest=view_history&ESTABLISHMENT_ID=9015608

So is the store actually open now and just "closed" for voucher holders?
Yikes - what next?

[Cheap]

Yikes - what next?

On upcoming episodes of As The Butchers Burns we will learn the answers to these questions and more;

Will the store close for renovation in July? or will it be August? or is it only a smokescreen dream for Marlon?

Will the ducks and geese come back to the Butchers, or did the chickens kill them all off?

Will Harry the hoarder attempt a hostile takeover of the Butchers after buying up all the unused vouchers and becoming a multi-meat-millionaire?

Will little miss webpiggy get roasted? or is there still time to sqeal away?

Will Marlon land the fish store, or is his tackle too small?

Stay tuned to find out

[sillysimms]

I just recently discovered this forum (unfortunately after my money went to Marlon's coffers) and now I'm catching up on the whole saga as it unfolded on the forum.

Did anyone else notice that the City Health inspection on June 21st did not go well? And then on June 23rd, it was given the green light.

http://app.toronto.ca/food2/DineSafeMain?userRequest=view_history&ESTABLISHMENT_ID=9015608

So is the store actually open now and just "closed" for voucher holders?
Yikes - what next?

I noticed that and was going to post the same thing. What happened was they got a 'conditional' pass on June 21 (the yellow sign). When a location gets a 'conditional' pass, they are reinspected within 48 hours to determine whether they have fixed the problems (which is why they were re-inspected on June 23).

Looking at those infractions turns you off the Butchers even more - they can't blame voucher holders for things like employees not washing their hands and not providing proper hand washing supplies. They are quite a few infractions there that would make re-consider even wanting to redeem your voucher (if it ever became an option again - not likely anyways).

[Tamarlane]

If the previous poster's description of the e-mails that Webpiggy sent out which indicate that the Toronto Board of Health mandated that The Butchers increase storage space to accomodate voucher holders is accurate, then surely even the densest on their staff should see the problem in making such a statement before disseminating said correspondence.
Unless the TBH is a de-facto partner with Marlon, how in the world can they force an operation to increase capacity? What do they know of supply and demand in this particular case? For ten years there have been no storage issues. Ordering less more frequently would be the obvious remedy. Is it their job to protect voucher holders? Will they also allocate staff to make sure that the meat is organic? Will they make sure that there is a always certain amount of beef there versus chicken? On and on.....
Obviously Marlon called Webpiggy and fed them the reno = more capacity = all vouchers redeemed story so keep on sending me the money and the reno will be finished on time. The (deal) customers will be happy and make less calls to you for refunds. The TBH is tossed in for deflected legitimacy as they would have been there only for potential health issues which is their only job. Remember the reno was long in the plans before it morphed into a last minute brilliancy by Snarlin' Marlon.
As in the classic situation where a business becomes indebted to a bank over and above their net worth, The Butchers and certain group deal companies now are on the same side. They have the public's money and will angle for ways to hold on to it.
As a side note, this tragicomedy also exposed the sad state of today's so called print journalism. The Globe and Mail, Star. and Global
are sitting on a tailor made story which is the essence of journalism, that being to inform and protect the public and in this case chronicle a very readable soap opera. Win-win- win. Where are they?
Cheers-

[Bookpreviews]

I just got emails from Webpiggy customer service saying that the Butchers has been ordered by Toronto Public Health to increase "cooling storage" to accommodate the voucher holders. I was told they are closed for renovations from mid July until early August to make these changes. The voucher deadlines will be extended for the lost time. Does this sound legitimate? if this were the case, wouldn't there be a sign?

Webpiggy will not issue refunds and has offered a credit for the amount. Too bad we bought two vouchers in my family.

Why would "public health" tell a store to have more storage space for their business- the city health does not regulate vouchers or tell stores to accept coupons..that is a different dept.

The health dept/food inspection can tell a store to decrease or increase the temperature for a food item and how they should be stored.

I actually ate at a restaurant last year who was keeping buffet items at a too low temp and got really ill....found out from the health report online.
on reading those reports I have never seen something saying "more storage to honour coupons" lol:facepalm:

[Love2Snack]

Marlon confirmed via phone that the voucher places are no longer paying him and he is cancelling the deal permanently.

So why does his website say differently?

[Cheap]

As a side note, this tragicomedy also exposed the sad state of today's so called print journalism. The Globe and Mail, Star. and Global are sitting on a tailor made story which is the essence of journalism, that being to inform and protect the public and in this case chronicle a very readable soap opera. Win-win- win. Where are they?

Since you came late to all of this you may have missed where Sean from Global did a news report from the Butchers a couple of months ago, and came on RFD and told us how he bought vouchers for himself and he didn't see any signs of a scam. He seemed pretty impressed with his purchase so clearly, he feels his work here is done.

At the time of the health inspection vouchers were not being accepted. He would have had little stock in the displays, when I went by there one of them was empty. Only his cash paying customers would suffer from these deficiencies. Not that there are that many customers anyway I'm sure, but according to the health dept he has problems even when the voucher holders are no where around. So it's pointless to speculate what problems there might be, when there is a problem already. Why would anyone pay a premium price for organic meat, when it is served from a store that got a conditional pass with so many infractions.

This 60 something page thread on RFD includes only a fraction of the people affected by this. There is no way to know what action other people who bought vouchers are taking, if any. Marlon could be drowning in demands for payment or not, who knows. He could be paying back the group buy companies to provide refunds, or not. He could still have customers at his store, or not.

This thing peaked when Marlon posted that he screwed up, and stopped taking vouchers until some unknown date in the future. The time now will give them a chance to see how bad the damage is. Is there any point in spending money renovating the store? If there was any chance of the store closing as a result of this mess, or a lack of real customers, then it would be stupid to sink money into it. With so much at stake for them its impossible to believe anything that Marlon or the group buy companies have to say about when, or if the vouchers will be accepted again.

It wouldn't surprise me if they closed down for a few weeks then change a light bulb to brighten up the place and open the renovated store. Buy more time without using up the money. If they can get things to blow over a bit, then Marlon can find out if the store is still a viable business.

[Cheap]

Marlon confirmed via phone that the voucher places are no longer paying him and he is cancelling the deal permanently.

So why does his website say differently?

Of course the voucher places aren't paying him, the deals happened long ago enough for him to have received all the payments. Are you saying that you talked to him on the phone?

[normistheman]

In today's paper.

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1016344--roseman-butcher-sold-21-000-coupons-can-t-meet-demand?bn=1

[Love2Snack]

Of course the voucher places aren't paying him, the deals happened long ago enough for him to have received all the payments. Are you saying that you talked to him on the phone?

Yes, and he said that he is still owed money and since he was not being paid the rest of the money, he has cancelled the deal and that I should get a refund.

I should have asked him why his website said differently but I have already asked for all my refunds.

I would be interested if anyone else has heard this from him or his staff

[YLSF]

In today's paper.

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1016344--roseman-butcher-sold-21-000-coupons-can-t-meet-demand?bn=1

Ah, this article points out that it was "federal meat inspectors" that made him increase capacity not Toronto board of health...

I hope someone follows up with the "federal meat inspectors" to verify claims.

[Tamarlane]

@cheap.
Actually as I mentioned in my previous post I have read through the entire thread. That is why I specifically mentioned the three news entities. Sean O'Shea's experience, If I recall correctly was telegraphed ( he phoned first) and obviously he was greeted by smiles and given great cuts and full selection. RFD posters then contacted him and asked to send someone incognito. To my understanding he has not yet done so.

In my case, having given up on mainstream media long ago, It was a friend who gave me the G&M article in April(?) asking for an opinion. I immediately went to google and found that problems already existed with The Butchers from previous group deals. The journalist writing the article ($400 for $99) obviously failed the 'investigative' electives in her studies. Either that or google is still a well kept secret. I do not want to de-rail this thread but that was my side point.

I read today from the link just provided (Roseman) that 21,000 vouchers were sold. I haven't done the math but being a beef farmer I can say that growing beef is not like making widgets where you can run extra production shifts. It takes lots of time, and in this instance the amount of time needed would exceed the coupon's expiry date. The stockyard prices are hitting record levels for all beef (organic/ free range stocks are much more limited and expensive) which further aggravates the economics of the situation. If I held a coupon from The Butchers I would now be just as concerned about the source of the product as I would be about about redeeming it.
Cheers-

[Love2Snack]

Well, reading that above link http://app.toronto.ca/food2/DineSafeMain?userRequest=view_history&ESTABLISHMENT_ID=9015608

Where they failed inspection, and what they violated, I am surprised they did not get a red card? How can they stay open with all those violations?

What is the health department doing? Just saying "Please don't feed the rats and you can stay open" ?

Contaminated food? failure to keep it cold? failure to wash hands? There are 12 violations of the health code....and they get to stay open?

[00cp]

Roseman misses the mark again.

When will a GTA journalist ask HARD questions of Marlon? Christ.... where are the people with balls these days? Oh right, they're posting on RFD and getting S#it done!

[Xeros]

What about the money?

Hasn't anyone followed where the money has gone? The Butchers received the money from the sale of the vouchers, yet they have not redeemed vouchers. So where exactly is this money?

All he has to do is refund everyone and call the entire deal off. It'll save everyone the headache. I think that's the only solution he has right now.

[00cp]

What about the money?

Hasn't anyone followed where the money has gone? The Butchers received the money from the sale of the vouchers, yet they have not redeemed vouchers. So where exactly is this money?

All he has to do is refund everyone and call the entire deal off. It'll save everyone the headache. I think that's the only solution he has right now.

You can't payback money you no longer have. Its all been sunk into the fish store and paying the PR firm he's hired to manage whats left of his image.

[kingkelly]

Exactly, the money is out there and Marlon has most of it, yet he's still crying and complaining to all the papers about how screwed he is and these coupons ruined his life... Please, hes got LOTS of $$ now, as do WebPiggy and Buytopia.

Marlon doesnt want to give up the money, the deal companies dont want to give it up, theyre both scumballs in my eyes and should have resolved this issue a longgg time ago.

I'd say all three businesses have ruined themselves in the long run.

[Rehan]

... yet he's still crying and complaining to all the papers about how screwed he is and these coupons ruined his life... It seems like he's blaming it on everyone but himself. It's the customers' fault. It's his vacationing business partner's fault (assuming that person actually exists). Next, it'll be the food inspectors' fault. Then the journalists' fault. Anyone but the greedy "naive" butcher who schemed up these ridiculous offers. (I think Ellen Roseman was being far too kind when using that word in the latest article.)

[MikeJefe]

In today's paper.

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1016344--roseman-butcher-sold-21-000-coupons-can-t-meet-demand?bn=1


“We can't give refunds to everyone. It would simply close our business down,” says James Vettese, Webpiggy's marketing director.

He just admitted it, that his business is a pyramid scheme and if he did the right thing the house of cards would come crashing down.
Jimmy, guess what? We don't care if it closes your business down. Whose fault was that? Not the customers... If you don't refund everybody, there will be a class action lawsuit that WILL close your business down. Go after Marlon, not the customers.

[shopzors]

I think she was avoiding libel laws by choosing "naive" as her preferred adjective. ;)

[MrDisco]

article was a bit weak, but at least i now know to never deal with WebPiggy in the future.

[CSK'sMom]

@cheap.
Actually as I mentioned in my previous post I have read through the entire thread. That is why I specifically mentioned the three news entities. Sean O'Shea's experience, If I recall correctly was telegraphed ( he phoned first) and obviously he was greeted by smiles and given great cuts and full selection. RFD posters then contacted him and asked to send someone incognito. To my understanding he has not yet done so.

In my case, having given up on mainstream media long ago, It was a friend who gave me the G&M article in April(?) asking for an opinion. I immediately went to google and found that problems already existed with The Butchers from previous group deals. The journalist writing the article ($400 for $99) obviously failed the 'investigative' electives in her studies. Either that or google is still a well kept secret. I do not want to de-rail this thread but that was my side point.

I read today from the link just provided (Roseman) that 21,000 vouchers were sold. I haven't done the math but being a beef farmer I can say that growing beef is not like making widgets where you can run extra production shifts. It takes lots of time, and in this instance the amount of time needed would exceed the coupon's expiry date. The stockyard prices are hitting record levels for all beef (organic/ free range stocks are much more limited and expensive) which further aggravates the economics of the situation. If I held a coupon from The Butchers I would now be just as concerned about the source of the product as I would be about about redeeming it.
Cheers-

I actually posted this fact over the weekend and pointed out just how coincidental it is that he stops honoring vouchers as the price of beef climbs. ;) I've also said all along that there was no way he was selling "organic" (which really means nothing) beef due to the volumes and when these deals were done with the group buy sites. Frankly, I would be surprised if he accepts vouchers at all while beef prices are high. It really explains why so many have not seen any beef in the cases during voucher redemption hrs....;)

[iridium001]

So all those people lost their money because this guy is an idiot?

I didn't buy any thank God but that's just not fair. People spent their money for pieces of paper worth nothing??

Where did all their money go?? To WebPiggy? To Marlon??

This is just going to set a precedence for copycats to strike it rich quick without any consequence!

"Do you want to feel just as happy as me? If so, send $1 to Happy Dude, 742 Evergreen Terrace! Remember, happiness is only a dollar away!"

[Cheap]

Todays episode of As The Butchers Burns is brought to you by the Ministry of Consumer Stuff "The Ministry - By Law"

Previously, Gary from DealFind was reluctant to say the Butchers broke their agreement, perhaps he was hoping he and Marlon could patch things up. It looks like the gloves are off now as Gary says “We told Marlon Pather he couldn't run deals on any other sites for 90 days. He chose specifically to ignore it”. Does this mean things are over for the two? Are there legal proceedings in store for this madcap couple? Follow along as Gary and Marlon enter a new stage in their lives without the comfort and support of each other.

It looks like the poor Webpiggy is about to be roasted by the Butchers. It did look like Webpiggy would be able to credit their way out of this, but then a cry was heard; “We can't give refunds to everyone. It would simply close our business down,” says James Vettese, Webpiggy's marketing director. James went on to believe in his mind that they are good people like Marlon, so they shouldn't have to give back the money either. The laws that protect society can't be allowed to kill the webpiggy!

Questions about how much money is left are swirling. Some people think that the money is gone. They think that Marlon is sticking around to renovate, refund, and redeem all from his own pocket. Others think if the money were gone, Marlon would have closed the store immediately, to prevent himself from being less than a zero. They think that even with the spending spree on chicken and fish stores, Marlon has plenty of bucks left. Will we see expeditions sent out in search of Marlon's secret meat money stash?

Mysterious G-men* entered The Butchers. Marlon told Ellen they were the feds, but Toronto health made an inspection and posted the results on their website. Were there two sets of G-men that entered the store?

*From our sponsors: We would like everyone to know that the G-men had to be city or Fed, because we assure you we aren't doing anything about this mess.

[Rehan]

Maybe there needs to be an Online Shopping License so people don't let greed take over and fall prey to these kind of offers that are obviously destined to fail. :razz:

[Toronto.Gal]

FYI - The Butchers have started tweeting

http://twitter.com/#!/ButchersOrganic

[00cp]

Maybe there needs to be an Online Shopping License so people don't let greed take over and fall prey to these kind of offers that are obviously destined to fail. :razz:

What a clown you are.

Greed? Yes... that must be it. Everyone who sees a good deal and goes for it is greedy. Poor, stupid, greedy me! OBVIOUSLY it was destined to fail, because we all knew Marlon's character and the underhanded practices of the deal of the day companies before buying a voucher.

Where have you and your crystal ball been all this time? Just waiting to chime in like a tool once some of us RFD'ers do the heavy lifting?

I work with about 100 people just like you, and everyday I pray for Friday.

[Cheap]

@cheap.
Actually as I mentioned in my previous post I have read through the entire thread. That is why I specifically mentioned the three news entities. Sean O'Shea's experience, If I recall correctly was telegraphed ( he phoned first) and obviously he was greeted by smiles and given great cuts and full selection. RFD posters then contacted him and asked to send someone incognito. To my understanding he has not yet done so.

I figured you saw it, but I don't like to miss an opportunity to bring it up again. I'm astounded that this guy joins RFD and comes here and posts what a great deal it is. The Olsen twins and the Vanessa burger are funny, epic fails here, but this is epic professional fail. Sad.

[zoro69]

Rehan was among a few people here posting on the original thread in the shopping forum, well before the last groups deals were even offered that this was not going to turn out well as it would be impossible to offer such deals. Then quite a few times since.

By the end of feb it was quite obvious what was going to happen http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-yonge-pricing-1003275/2/#post12500427 Now we are at the end of Jun and people are only deciding to try and do something...and finding it too late

I think what I find most surprising is how few are posting here or anywhere else with complaints. Almost all who bought those 20k vouchers must be aware of what the deal is now, yet we have surprisingly few claiming they are owed refunds. And Buytopia response saying they were seeking $5k back from the butcher would indicate very few had sought refunds.

Much like on past "deals" on rfd like katz and the "free guitar when you buy an mp4 player", it was absolutely greed for people to suspect something wasn't right, read well reasoned posts explaining how it isn't possible...then buy anyway. Of course there was deal55 that was so incredibly obvious a scam from the start that some people bought anyway.

[Cheap]

stupid me! OBVIOUSLY it was destined to fail.

Too many words, I fixed it

[Love2Snack]

Rehan was among a few people here posting on the original thread in the shopping forum, well before the last groups deals were even offered that this was not going to turn out well as it would be impossible to offer such deals. Then quite a few times since.

I think what I find most surprising is how few are posting here or anywhere else with complaints. Almost all who bought those 20k vouchers must be aware of what the deal is now, yet we have surprisingly few claiming they are owed refunds. And Buytopia response saying they were seeking $5k back from the butcher would indicate very few had sought refunds.

Much like on past "deals" on rfd like katz and the "free guitar when you buy an mp4 player", it was absolutely greed for people to suspect something wasn't right, read well reasoned posts explaining how it isn't possible...then buy anyway. Of course there was deal55 that was so incredibly obvious a scam from the start that some people bought anyway.


Unfortunately we rely on companies like Webpiggy, Buytopia and Dealfind to be looking out in our best interests and to only be selling us a deal that they can back up with their due diligence. I am not sure who is to blame more, them or the Butcher. Technically we bought a voucher from the coupon site but it was set up in good faith with the Butcher and I really wish they would make those contracts public so we can see exactly who violated which terms. Either way, if I do not get 100% of my money back I am going to be very angry with everyone involved

[kator]

http://www.localseoguide.com/group-buying-promotion-closes-the-butchers-on-yonge-street-temporarily/

and yet he doesn't think its a scam?!

[mypassword]

The coupon providers (with the exception of Dealfind) all seem to be running away from this issue. I would urge people to call your credit card company and ask for a refund. The merchant has the responsibility to deliver goods / services as part of their agreement with a card provider. Coupon buyers were sold a service that cannot be fulfilled by the provider and since "The Butcher's" is still in business (for now) Webpiggy and the others cannot hide behind a "no responsibility" excuse. Visa and Mastercard should protect their cardholders and debit the merchant for incomplete transactions.

[MrDisco]

What a clown you are.

you need to chill out. did you fail to see the smiley he had at the end of his post? Your personal attack was completely uncalled for.

[dealzuser]

FYI - The Butchers have started tweeting

http://twitter.com/#!/ButchersOrganic

I can see more people following this Twit than Lady Gaga's. :)

Overall, this thread is becoming quite entertaining. I think that those who bought after Feb lacked some common sense. By then, there were 2-3 webpiggy deals, and the 10,000+ buy on DealFind. Particularly, you have to wonder about those who bought the Buytopia offer...

I did support them since I was able to go in and get meat in April. I even allowed Harold to try and route my order in. (Marlon actually left me a VM telling me that my $150 worth of meat will be ready.) Fortunately, the store closed due to "refrigeration" problems on the day he asked me to come, and Harold gave me a refund after that.

[pakmode]

“We can't give refunds to everyone. It would simply close our business down,” says James Vettese, Webpiggy's marketing director.

He just admitted it, that his business is a pyramid scheme and if he did the right thing the house of cards would come crashing down.
Jimmy, guess what? We don't care if it closes your business down. Whose fault was that? Not the customers... If you don't refund everybody, there will be a class action lawsuit that WILL close your business down. Go after Marlon, not the customers.

+1

Folks,

For those just joining us, we correctly identified months ago that this 'run on the bank' scenario would happen and the serious potential for some of these deal sites or Marlon to fold.

It's a clear, ominous sign when you read this:
“We can't give refunds to everyone. It would simply close our business down,” says James Vettese, Webpiggy's marketing director.

Anyways, it happened to some of the largest companies/banks in the world - so what made you think it wouldn't happen to a small butcher in Toronto?

For some of you, your money has died and gone to money heaven.
But my best advice to you now is to try and get a refund from your credit card company.



Here are some April posts to sift through.



Wow, that is awful. Just awful.
Perhaps you can do a chargeback through your credit card?
You never actually received the services you paid for, so I would explore this route.

Webpiggy ownership: If you are reading this, I implore you to refund customers back who are unsatisfied otherwise you will be run out of business by your competition.
With 35+ group buy sites (and growing) customer's will not tolerate your incompetence and ineptitude and move on to the next group buy broker.

As for The Butchers: they've been shilling on chowhound the past couple days, but their (and my) posts have been deleted.
I basically outted them a couple months ago for being greedy pigs.
Their Bernie Madoff-eque house of cards will soon topple as more customers run towards the exit asking for refunds. (Wouldn't surprise me if you see Webpiggy fold and perhaps others who got caught up in the greed).

Anyways, I'm not here to fear-monger, but I hate greedy pigs. During the beginning of the credit crisis when other banks started to pull out of Lehman Brothers, it essentially imploded on itself in 1 week. The word on the street was they were leveraged 66 to 1 in some portions of their business. That is for every $1 of their own money they were borrowing $66.
What's worse is they didn't learn their lesson 6 months earlier when Bear Stearns collapsed, literally over a weekend.

My point here is, if you bought this and don't think it's worth it, take your money and run, just don't get caught holding the bag.




To be honest, my biggest concern has always been these Butcher deals are predicated on greed and are unsustainable.

They're Madoff-eque in nature, and will continue to increase until one day there's a run at the bank. By that time it will be too late. Thousands of voucher holders will be left with nothing but pdf documents and online rants.

They have sold 2000 Buytopia vouchers, coupled with the 4000 Webgreedypig vouchers - that's $600,000 for $2,400,000 worth of product. Excluding the deals where they sold 1000's of vouchers before.

Call me a fear monger all you want. But we just witnessed 2 of the 5 biggest US investbank banks fail a couple years ago - and they were too big to fail. So if it can happen on the level of Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns, it can happen in a New York minute to the Botchers. Granted Lehman was leveraged 66:1 in some areas, but when people take a run at the Bank, they evaporate literally overnight. This concerns me because there are 40+ Toronto group buy sites out there now, and one of these greedy piggys is going to screw it up for everybody.

My guess is at some point something's gotta give and we may see some of the following:
> The Botchers either rename businesses and leave everybody hanging - including the group buy brokers.
> The group buy brokers close down or change their name leaving there vouchers worthless.
> The Botchers closes down, causing people to run for the exits with Webpiggy et all - causing these sites to bankrupt.
> OR The Botchers supply product at an inflated price.

Remember, somebody who had purchased the first voucher in December now finds inflation has eaten away at the original value. There are set prices now which is good. But tell that to somebody who bought in December.

[YLSF]

What a clown you are.


OOcp, Rehan is a well respected member on here, I don't think that comment is called for at all.

The great thing about RFD is it doesn't censor like some other forums but at the same time people tend to respect each other on here as well.

EDITED to add: Found this interesting site that links to the Toronto Star article:

http://www.dailydealmedia.com/when-merchants-are-responsible-for-butchering-the-deal975/

What is interesting is that it follows "Daily deal" news stories. Just reading about a bagel company in Chicago that got slammed after doing a Groupon. Supposedly got some really bad reviews after but don't know the whole story yet. Watching the video now.

[Beachdown]

Ah, this article points out that it was "federal meat inspectors" that made him increase capacity not Toronto board of health...

I hope someone follows up with the "federal meat inspectors" to verify claims.

Federal meat inspectors? Good grief. While there are federal "meat" inspectors, they have nothing to do with local businesses selling the product. Their responsibility includes slaughterhouses, imports/exports, processing plants, etc.

[kator]

Federal meat inspectors? Good grief. While there are federal "meat" inspectors, they have nothing to do with local businesses selling the product. Their responsibility includes slaughterhouses, imports/exports, processing plants, etc.

i'm guessing they meant the city of toronto's dinesafe, which they sure got in trouble with! http://app.toronto.ca/food2/DineSafeMain?userRequest=view_history&ESTABLISHMENT_ID=9015608

[YLSF]

Can someone please post the full text of the e-mail from Webpiggy (re: that they were required to add additional fridges). Good to have all of the details in one thread.

[Rehan]

What a clown you are. As an admirer of Bahlool, I can't really say that I resent that remark. :)

(Thanks to you other folks for sticking up for me, though.)


Greed? Yes... that must be it. Everyone who sees a good deal and goes for it is greedy. Poor, stupid, greedy me! OBVIOUSLY it was destined to fail, because we all knew Marlon's character and the underhanded practices of the deal of the day companies before buying a voucher. Maybe naive would be a better word, then -- in some cases, at least...I'm not sure it applies to those that bought ten $100 vouchers in hopes of getting supposedly $4000 worth of meat.

The crystal ball (a.k.a. simple math) that you're wondering about: http://forums.redflagdeals.com/butchers-yonge-pricing-1003275/4/#post12501741 etc. ... That was in February. Regardless of whether Marlon is a fraud artist or just a "softy" who's horrible at math and marketing, the end result was/is bound to happen. It was only a matter of time until the money ran out and people were left holding the short end of the stick.

This "deal" had high risk written all over it. Playing the lottery is also a high-risk game; surely you don't think that the people that don't win the lottery should go around complaining that they lost their money. Maybe it just requires being stung once or twice (or watching others get stung) before people realize how to recognize risk when spending money online.

[Bookpreviews]

The thing with Webpiggy saying they could go out of business- that would suck for people who want refunds.
But I doubt it would do much more to Webpiggy.

I mean they could just rename their site and change the company name and most consumers would not notice as most people who buy these coupon deals do not really look into who runs the company and just want their vouchers.

So if webpiggy goes under I doubt it is much for them, but will suck for the consumers.
Now how many new deal sites are there in Ontario this week???:razz:

[Tamarlane]

As much as possible I try to be a 'live and let live' type of person Marlon's last interview with Ellen Roseman re-egnites my ire in that he displays the characteristics of a psychopath/sociopath ( no conscience or responsibility while perpetrating a misdeed ), a real issue with me having had dealt with this type in the past.

To wit; with his hands caught clearly in a cookie jar his explanation is that he is 'soft' (!). In the context that I read it, I think he meant to convey the impression that he had an altruistic vision that he should personally take it upon himself to provide the good citizens of Toronto with 'awesome' meats at great personal cost, doing his part in enhancing the harmony of the universe.

As with the many great humanitarians in world history it unfortunately ended badly. He will take '100% responsibility' but you see he was doing it for the hard working (organic) meat eating public. But what is this? He has an additional fail-safe. He has a partner who normally reins in his humanitarian impulses who happened to be on vacation ( for several months and X number of deals when they would be busier than ever). Some partner that is. But if anybody doesn't believe him he discloses her name, one Serena Para.

Now the curious thing is that a cursory google search seems to indicate that there is no one in the world with this name. One would think that a partner in a prominent organic meat establishment in Toronto would be on any number of business or social registries
but no. A seemingly phantom partner whose fault was vacationing too much and letting Snarlin' Marlon get 'soft'.

Now back to reality. 21,000 vouchers sold. Let us assume that he redeemed a ridiculously small amount of the $99-$400 deal at 50 per day. At 60% of the take that is a cheque for $3,000 daily. Do the math and easily double or treble the number of coupons to get closer to what was happening. You can do this math also for the group deal companies and the picture becomes clear. They don't even have to conjure up product but that is a different topic.
Being a neighbourhood butcher is a fairly mundane living if your personality is not of a humble, grounded variety. There is no excitement and the procedures are repetitive. It is a good living unless you are a 'shooter'. Expansion to the fish store would seem to indicate that our boy Marlon was on the move. Give him up to $100K of cash a month and a year to 'deal' with it and we have a monkey with a machine-gun scenario. Those stupid banks that only offered $10K with security and charged 'juice' on top for the 'can't lose fish store' will be shown that a marketing genius will not be denied. The result, a miniature Conrad Black scenario with denial and deflection in the forefront.

Try as I might using my personal business knowledge, the only way that I can see Marlon skating from this whereby all outstanding coupons are redeemed and no contracts are broken would be if he raised the price of his products to the point where the laws of mathematics allow him to break even or even realize a profit. This of course would be an academic solution not a practical one:
1 T-bone steak- $ 275.00 would be an example.

Marlon can thank himself and his interview with Ellen Roseman for my continued interest.
Cheers-

[Cheap]

There are lots of numbers being thrown around. Most don't reflect the true size of this. The 21,000 voucher number came from Marlon in the Postcity.com interview. I don't believe its accurate, I think the actual number is more like 27,000. I know some of these numbers are not perfect. Much of it came from screenshots I kept from the sales, web searches, and a post on Trueler. If anyone has better info, I will update it.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4805/butchernumbers.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/butchernumbers.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

From The Butchers:

if you sell 1,000 vouchers that works out to about 3 new customers per day. Unfortunately, it has been hard for us to judge how much meat to bring in since it is a perishable product and we never know how many people are going to be coming in on a particular day to redeem their vouchers. Also, we thought that people would come in and use a bit of their vouchers over the course of the year versus coming in and redeeming the full amount all in one go. I'm sure it is not hard to imagine how quickly we can go through a refrigerator case full of meat when you have 30 people redeeming their entire voucher all at once.

Did anyone else notice something about this little bit of fiction from Marlon?

[ronin1701]

From The Butchers:

if you sell 1,000 vouchers that works out to about 3 new customers per day.

Did anyone else notice something about this little bit of fiction from Marlon?

That's got to be the best line.

[shopzors]

From The Butchers:

if you sell 1,000 vouchers that works out to about 3 new customers per day. Unfortunately, it has been hard for us to judge how much meat to bring in since it is a perishable product and we never know how many people are going to be coming in on a particular day to redeem their vouchers. Also, we thought that people would come in and use a bit of their vouchers over the course of the year versus coming in and redeeming the full amount all in one go. I'm sure it is not hard to imagine how quickly we can go through a refrigerator case full of meat when you have 30 people redeeming their entire voucher all at once.

Did anyone else notice something about this little bit of fiction from Marlon?

Now that you point it out, I break it down like this:

1) First I, Marlon, estimate that people will come in with a staggered set of visits averaged over the year with the number of new customers per day = # of vouchers sold/365
2) Having made this estimate, I can not use it to estimate how much meat to bring in, for whatever unexplained reason.
3) I have no understanding of human dynamics around "food", "deals", and barbecue weather.
4) People have freezers at home that can be used to store large amounts of perishable products? When did that happen? I did not know that.
5) If I sold 27,000 coupons, then I should have been expecting 74 new customers a day (from 1), above).
6) Try my fish store when it opens.

[gr8dlr]

There's a problem with one of Marlon's assumptions...he assumed people would come in and only use part of the voucher each visit and not redeem the whole thing at once when in fact most vouchers I've ever bought say you must use all at one visit with no carryover allowed. He said he can't stock $400 of meat for everybody but that's generally how vouchers work.

[callmethecat]

There are lots of numbers being thrown around. Most don't reflect the true size of this. The 21,000 voucher number came from Marlon in the Postcity.com interview. I don't believe its accurate, I think the actual number is more like 27,000. I know some of these numbers are not perfect. Much of it came from screenshots I kept from the sales, web searches, and a post on Trueler. If anyone has better info, I will update it.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4805/butchernumbers.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/butchernumbers.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

From The Butchers:

if you sell 1,000 vouchers that works out to about 3 new customers per day. Unfortunately, it has been hard for us to judge how much meat to bring in since it is a perishable product and we never know how many people are going to be coming in on a particular day to redeem their vouchers. Also, we thought that people would come in and use a bit of their vouchers over the course of the year versus coming in and redeeming the full amount all in one go. I'm sure it is not hard to imagine how quickly we can go through a refrigerator case full of meat when you have 30 people redeeming their entire voucher all at once.

Did anyone else notice something about this little bit of fiction from Marlon?


This only show 9,614 sold, thus I assume 1,894 or 16.4% have been cancelled and refunded.

http://www.dealfind.com/toronto/thebutchers

[Cheap]

Forget any notion of spreading the vouchers out over a year or redeeming them a portion at a time, the volume involved here is staggering. No matter how you slice it he would have to redeem over 50 vouchers a day, every day for the full value to meet his obligation. No guesswork involved, fill the fridges everyday. Marlon understood 1000 is 3 customers a day but not what 27 X 3 equals? He would have been taking at least 30 orders a day during the month of March, there were almost 20,000 sold by then. The amount he sold prior to the last 2 sales represented much more than 30 vouchers per day, so if he claims that is a problem, does that mean that he entered the last 2 sales knowing that he could not fulfil his obligation?

[Cheap]

This only show 9,614 sold, thus I assume 1,894 or 16.4% have been cancelled and refunded.

http://www.dealfind.com/toronto/thebutchers

I looked before and it was around 10,500 so maybe it is updated when they do a refund. This was THE big sale, the number the I kept hearing in the news at the time was 11,500. Good to see Gary and Dealfind take care of their customers.

All my numbers were the totals from each sale when they ended. I really don't want to do a countdown of the meltdown of the meatclown of midtown.

[canadiankorean]

wow that's a lot of deals he did.

i'm sure he knew what he was doing and found this to be a quick cash grab.

[callmethecat]

I looked before and it was around 10,500 so maybe it is updated when they do a refund. This was THE big sale, the number the I kept hearing in the news at the time was 11,500. Good to see Gary and Dealfind take care of their customers.

All my numbers were the totals from each sale when they ended. I really don't want to do a countdown of the meltdown of the meatclown of midtown.

Its now 9,613 so it appears we can track refunds.

As I said earlier, this is like watching a slow motion car crash, I want to stop looking but can't.