Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

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Feb 24, 2008
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qwert97 wrote:
Jan 3rd, 2013 5:27 pm
Hi djino

Welcome back. I have followed this thread from day 1. I have a trial coming up on 18th Jan and wanted to seek some advise. Just to refresh your memory:
1. Got speeding ticket 30 over in April. Did not have driving license so was issued 2 tickets.
2. Filed for trial and received trial date in October. Immediately filed disclosure request.
3. Got letter from prosecutor in October that disclosure is ready. Picked up disclosure.
4. Disclosure was inadequate since it only had copy of officers notes , scribbles and illegible while I had requested typed up. I had also requested maintenance and other things but they were not provided.
5. Sent a fax to prosecutor on Dec 28th that the disclosure was inadequate ( i was traveling so could not send request earlier)
6. Since I was approaching 15 day window i filed 4F on 2nd Jan (in person)

On Jan 18th I expect that JP will try to adjourn and ask prosecutor to provide complete disclosure.

Should I accept a deal from prosecutor or should I go ahead with trial with a hope that it gets adjourned and 11(b) can be applicable. As a plan B i have prepared the questions that I will like to share with you but your mailbox was full.

Since there are a lot of people filing 4F i thought it would be relevant to many on the forum. I will appreciate your response.
Proceed to trial, and motion a stay your trial as per your Form 4F Application. At trial, you will want to:

1. Prepare arguments to make for why the prosecutor has mishandled your case
2. Prepare arguments for why you need the missing items in disclosure. State why its relevent - remember there are 4 items a prosecutor needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt for you to be convicted on the speeding offence (The Driver of the vehicle, The location of the offence, the speed of the vehicle, and the speed limit at the location).
3. Prepare arguments for why it would be unfair to adjourn your trial since you intended to make all effort to prepare an answer today, but the prosecutor has been uncooperative in preparing sufficient disclosure

If the Justice disagrees with your arguments, accept an adjournment and request disclosure 1 final time for the missing items.

djino
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gananoque wrote:
Jan 3rd, 2013 11:05 pm
I have a court date set for Jan 9 2013 for an improper left turn - my first ticket btw. From talking to some friends a while back, my plan was to go and accept a reduced charge. I came across this thread, and read the things I should have done way before the trial date. The question is can something still be done? Ask for a delay, or hire a paralegal since I am unprepared to represent myself? Many thanks
You can send off a request now for disclosure (see the first post that contains a disclosure request document you can send to the prosecutor). At trial, if the police officer is not present proceed to trial so that the prosecutor is forced to drop your charges. If the police officer is present, you can request an adjournment (of course it will be your fault) since you have not received disclosure.

If the Trial is adjourned, come back to this thread when you have received disclosure.

djino
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sm2by1990 wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 1:02 am
Help, I haven't received a court date yet but I'm already trying to put together a defense for my case. I got caught in a speed trap run by 3 officers. The one that wrote my ticket wasn't the one operating the LIDAR/Radar, another officer was the one operating the device and just shouting out the speeds of the cars on a noisy busy road. I have a witness, my mother in the front passenger seat (she's the one that first noticed the speed trap) She clearly recalls that a different officer was operating the Speed Gun. I'm wondering If I'm gonna request disclosure do I have to request notes of the one who wrote my ticket and the one operating the Speed Gun. And would both officers need to be present at my Trial? is there a possiblity of having 2 cops at my trial?...
Since the ticket is used to present evidence for your conviction, the officer who wrote the ticket needs to be present at your trial. Since the radar device was used to calculate the speed you were going, the officer who was operating the device needs to be present at your trial.

djino
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whitebro wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 4:32 am
I can't PM you because your inbox is FULL!
I have emptied some messages.


djino
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Mar 2, 2005
40 posts
Mississauga
It is informative to come across this thread. Thanks.
Need a guidance... I got a ticket yesterday on Disobey Stop Sign- Fail to stop ( 136(1)(a) ) in a small intersection in Mississauga. I remembered I stopped at the all-way-stop but proceeded immediately. The officer said I didn't and he commented that he could have let me go on what he saw but he was doing a monitoring with his boss in the car at the intersection at the time (due to neighbourhood complaint )... and couldn't do it. With the worry of 3 de-merit points, I'm planning to appeal it. By following your previous comment, I think I've to stand a trial and ask for the disclosure. Should I ask for the disclosure from both officers ( even though the ticket has 1 officer's name in the ticket ) and what should be the address of the prosecutor's officer to request it please? When should I ask for it? Note that this is my first ticket in over 15 years of driving. Thanks for any advise/help.
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Nov 24, 2007
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Mississauga
djino wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 11:45 am
I have emptied some messages.


djino
PM sent
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Nov 17, 2011
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Toronto
djino wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 11:33 am
Proceed to trial, and motion a stay your trial as per your Form 4F Application. At trial, you will want to:

1. Prepare arguments to make for why the prosecutor has mishandled your case
2. Prepare arguments for why you need the missing items in disclosure. State why its relevent - remember there are 4 items a prosecutor needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt for you to be convicted on the speeding offence (The Driver of the vehicle, The location of the offence, the speed of the vehicle, and the speed limit at the location).
3. Prepare arguments for why it would be unfair to adjourn your trial since you intended to make all effort to prepare an answer today, but the prosecutor has been uncooperative in preparing sufficient disclosure

If the Justice disagrees with your arguments, accept an adjournment and request disclosure 1 final time for the missing items.

djino
Hi djino,

I'm in the same situation as qwert97, except I was going over 20 km/h and my trial is on the 22nd of this month. I pretty much did everything what he did, including request for disclosure. I sent them a registered mail requesting my disclosure and after a month I faxed them again and in another two weeks I faxed again and I didn't get any response from them. My questions to you is how to prepare myself to the 3 things you have noted above. Can you please elaborate a bit more with some specific questions that I can ask them? If the JP wants to adjourn my trial, Can I tell him or her that its unfair to adjourn my trial because I'm going to have to take another day off from work and I will lose pay.

Thank you very much for your help. Greatly appreciated.
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ktyt wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 12:19 pm
It is informative to come across this thread. Thanks.
Need a guidance... I got a ticket yesterday on Disobey Stop Sign- Fail to stop ( 136(1)(a) ) in a small intersection in Mississauga. I remembered I stopped at the all-way-stop but proceeded immediately. The officer said I didn't and he commented that he could have let me go on what he saw but he was doing a monitoring with his boss in the car at the intersection at the time (due to neighbourhood complaint )... and couldn't do it. With the worry of 3 de-merit points, I'm planning to appeal it. By following your previous comment, I think I've to stand a trial and ask for the disclosure. Should I ask for the disclosure from both officers ( even though the ticket has 1 officer's name in the ticket ) and what should be the address of the prosecutor's officer to request it please? When should I ask for it? Note that this is my first ticket in over 15 years of driving. Thanks for any advise/help.
The officer that witnessed the offence and wrote the ticket will need to attend your trial. If its just the one officer on both of these issues, then its only that one that needs to attend.

Just follow the steps on the first post.

Step 1. Request a Trial as per the option on the back of the ticket and send it in
Step 2. Months later, you will receive a notice of trial containing the date/time/location of your trial. At this point, contact the court and ask them for the prosecutor's contact info.
Step 3. Fax/Mail in your request for disclosure using the disclosure request document on the first post
Step 4a. Weeks/Months later, you "may" receive disclosure. At that time, come back to this thread and we can discuss options for trial.
Step 4b. If you do not receive disclosure with about a month to your trial. Follow the process to submit Form 4F due to no disclosure
Step 4c. If there has been 11 months or more between the day you received the ticket to your trial, Follow the process to submit Form 4F due to unreasonable delay

djino
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Dec 18, 2012
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Edmonton
djino wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 11:45 am
I have emptied some messages.


djino
It's full again.
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gonzo20 wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 1:45 pm
Hi djino,

I'm in the same situation as qwert97, except I was going over 20 km/h and my trial is on the 22nd of this month. I pretty much did everything what he did, including request for disclosure. I sent them a registered mail requesting my disclosure and after a month I faxed them again and in another two weeks I faxed again and I didn't get any response from them. My questions to you is how to prepare myself to the 3 things you have noted above. Can you please elaborate a bit more with some specific questions that I can ask them? If the JP wants to adjourn my trial, Can I tell him or her that its unfair to adjourn my trial because I'm going to have to take another day off from work and I will lose pay.

Thank you very much for your help. Greatly appreciated.
djino wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 11:33 am
1. Prepare arguments to make for why the prosecutor has mishandled your case
Here, you are basically going to take the Justice through your Form 4F application. State the date you received the notice of trial. State the dates you requested disclosure. State how you requested disclosure and mention that you have proof of each attempt you made to obtain disclosure. State that you have yet to receive disclosure (or that the disclosure you received is improper/not complete).
djino wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 11:33 am
2. Prepare arguments for why you need the missing items in disclosure. State why its relevent - remember there are 4 items a prosecutor needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt for you to be convicted on the speeding offence (The Driver of the vehicle, The location of the offence, the speed of the vehicle, and the speed limit at the location).
Explained specifically what you requested in disclosure. Explain why it is relevant that you have this. Example would be knowing the make/model information of the radar used to measure your speed. Since the crown would provide this evidence to show your speed to convict you at trial, makes this subject to disclosure.
djino wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 11:33 am
3. Prepare arguments for why it would be unfair to adjourn your trial since you intended to make all effort to prepare an answer today, but the prosecutor has been uncooperative in preparing sufficient disclosure
Yes, state your reasons for why an adjournment would be unfair to you (an injustice).

Examples:

a) The prosecutor has not provided any valid reasons for ignoring your disclosure requests
b) The prosecutor is wasting the courts time since everyone (including the police officer) would need to return again
c) The prosecutor not fulfilling your disclosure request is not your fault since you have acted in good faith in making multiple requests for disclosure with much notice before trial
d) Having to return to court again would affect your ability to make a living since it would require you to take more time off work to return

Those are a few of the many reasons you can provide to the Justice to give him no option but to grant a stay of proceedings.

djino
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whitebro wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 3:12 pm
It's full again.
Deleted more messages.


*sigh*, I wish the admins could provide me more space in my inbox. Its so annoying to have to keep deleting messages which in many cases I'd like to hold onto for future reference.

djino
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Nov 17, 2011
98 posts
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Toronto
djino wrote:
Jan 4th, 2013 3:21 pm
Here, you are basically going to take the Justice through your Form 4F application. State the date you received the notice of trial. State the dates you requested disclosure. State how you requested disclosure and mention that you have proof of each attempt you made to obtain disclosure. State that you have yet to receive disclosure (or that the disclosure you received is improper/not complete).



Explained specifically what you requested in disclosure. Explain why it is relevant that you have this. Example would be knowing the make/model information of the radar used to measure your speed. Since the crown would provide this evidence to show your speed to convict you at trial, makes this subject to disclosure.



Yes, state your reasons for why an adjournment would be unfair to you (an injustice).

Examples:

a) The prosecutor has not provided any valid reasons for ignoring your disclosure requests
b) The prosecutor is wasting the courts time since everyone (including the police officer) would need to return again
c) The prosecutor not fulfilling your disclosure request is not your fault since you have acted in good faith in making multiple requests for disclosure with much notice before trial
d) Having to return to court again would affect your ability to make a living since it would require you to take more time off work to return

Those are a few of the many reasons you can provide to the Justice to give him no option but to grant a stay of proceedings.

djino
Thank you very much for responding to my questions and for all your help. ;)
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ALTHOUGH I WOULD PREFER QUESTIONS TO BE POSTED/ANSWERED HERE IN THIS THREAD. IF YOU HAVE THE NEED FOR PRIVACY, EMAIL ME -> djino.redflagdeals@gmail.com (since my PM box fills up rather quickly).

djino
"UPDATING THE OP WITH THIS"
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Everyone that has PM'd me today, I will respond tonight or tomorrow morning to those messages.

djino
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Mar 18, 2007
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I was given two tickets in Markham this morning. One for disobey stop sign and one for no currently validated permit. I am going to fight for the disobey stop sign because I did stop and the officer said that I did not. I'll do my home work in preparation for court. I was wondering if I should get an early resolution for the 'no currently validated permit". I had a valid sticker which I obtained from the kiosk. I put the sticker on my plate and forgot to stick the validation part to the back of my ownership. I think a lot of people. like me, thought that the plate part is what it needs. So a an expensive careless mistake ($110 fine). My thinking was I should be given a chance to produce the validation at a police station or wherever because I had paid for the sticker. I was hoping that an early resolution meeting will get this out of the way with a lesser fine or no demerit points (if any for this charge). Please advise if I should just forget about the early resolution and fight for both in court. I have no idea what to say in court about the "no currently validated permit" other than that was a careless mistake.
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