Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14275 posts
5175 upvotes
Gatineau
WHAT TO ARGUE IN COURT? - You should keep in mind STRICT LIABILITY

What happens if you actually have to proceed to trial and fight for a not-guilty verdict? How does one prepare to battle it out in court when receiving a traffic ticket?

You will have months and months and months to prepare a defense, And as I've already mentioned many many times already, the first thing you should do as soon as you receive notice of trial is to request disclosure of the evidence against you. And if you happen to get sufficient disclosure, doesn't mean you should give up and accept a plea.

When you receive a traffic ticket, you should make notes to remind yourself of what happened that day. Before committing the illegal act, did you at least attempt to do something prior to being pulled over to avoid having the incident occur? If the answer is Yes, then it may not be as hard to prove your case as you may think.

Most traffic offences fall under a "STRICT LIABILITY" offence (like most provincial offences). With a strict liability offence, the Justice will hand you a NOT GUILTY verdict if you are successful in arguing due diligence. To argue due diligence, you must show that you took all reasonable care to avoid committing the offence.

http://ticketcombat.com/step5/strict.php

[QUOTE]Strict Liability Offences

Strict liability offences do not require the prosecutor to prove you had a particular state of mind, only that you committed the illegal act. But your defence allows you to prove that you took reasonable care not to commit the illegal act. The problem was that you made a reasonable mistake of fact which if it had been true would make you innocent. In other words you took reasonable steps to avoid a particular outcome, you exercised due diligence and although you were wrong, you are morally innocent.

This is the defence of due diligence and it is one of the most potent weapons in your arsenal.

To argue due diligence, you must show that you took all reasonable care to avoid committing the offence. It is not enough to say that you are normally a diligent person or that you take care generally. You must show that you took all reasonable steps to avoid that specific incident.

Here are some examples of weak arguments where the defendants did not demonstrate that they did enough to avoid committing the offence:
You must think about what level of diligence is required to avoid committing the offence. Then you must present a defence that shows that you took all those steps.[/QUOTE]

djino
"UPDATED OP"
[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14275 posts
5175 upvotes
Gatineau
olevia 747i wrote:
May 19th, 2012 8:10 am
Making a right turn on a Red light, does this affect your insurance if convicted?

Assuming there was a sign for No Right Turn on Red Light (and/or a By-law), then YES this will effect your insurance.


djino
Member
User avatar
Nov 6, 2009
406 posts
19 upvotes
djino wrote:
May 19th, 2012 8:16 am
Assuming there was a sign for No Right Turn on Red Light (and/or a By-law), then YES this will effect your insurance.


djino

Sorry I should have been more clear here.

I mean making a right turn on a red light without a complete stop.

I guess yes.

Last question, I got my Notice of Trial , the letter is in English.

But I requested a French trial, does it matter???

Thanks
Avoid Scammers

Mauritius Island
[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14275 posts
5175 upvotes
Gatineau
olevia 747i wrote:
May 19th, 2012 8:22 am
Sorry I should have been more clear here.

I mean making a right turn on a red light without a complete stop.

I guess yes.
Yes, a conviction on that charge is still a conviction that an insurer can and will increase your premium on.
olevia 747i wrote:
May 19th, 2012 8:22 am
Last question, I got my Notice of Trial , the letter is in English.

But I requested a French trial, does it matter???

Thanks

This may indicate that they didn't notice your request for a French trial. You can do one of 3 things.

1) As soon as you can, goto court tell them that you requested a French trial, and you need future notices from the court to be sent to you in French.

- This may get your court date changed (postponed) to a later date than what is shown on the first notice. This can help you later should you need to file an 11b application.

2) You totally ignore the notice and not attend court on your scheduled trial.

- This will get you convicted by default. They will mail you a letter after your trial indicating this. You will then need to return to court and get the Justice to reopen your case based on the fact that you did not receive your notices in the language you requested. Justice will reopen your case (or drop it), you can then file an 11b application when next trial begins.

3) Just goto court on the date shown on your English written notice.

- If its apparent that everyone in your court session is speaking english (ie, Prosecutor, other people who requested a trial, etc), you can tell the prosecutor that you requested a French trial. You can bet that either he or the Justice will just drop your charges (or at the very least postpone it - then at your next trial, you would 11b it).


djino
"The choice is yours!"
Deal Addict
May 18, 2005
3412 posts
353 upvotes
Thanks DJINO. This thread is very helpful. I have a trial coming up in June and I didn't request for the disclosure(didn't know about this). I did request an interpreter as English is not my first language. I was charged for 20 over the speed limit. I guess I'll just hope either the officer and the interpreter won't show up.
[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14275 posts
5175 upvotes
Gatineau
LoveRFD wrote:
May 19th, 2012 9:08 am
Thanks DJINO. This thread is very helpful. I have a trial coming up in June and I didn't request for the disclosure(didn't know about this). I did request an interpreter as English is not my first language. I was charged for 20 over the speed limit. I guess I'll just hope either the officer and the interpreter won't show up.
Now I'm not sure when in June your Trial is, but lets hope its sometime MID to the end of June (ie, you have at least 3 weeks or more). This is what you should do.....

Tuesday morning (May 22nd) fax in your request for disclosure. Sample Form

The following Monday morning (May 28th). You should file an application to STAY your trial based on no disclosure (I know, you have given them only a week to respond which of course is not reasonable). Please follow post #3 and #4 in this thread for the application to use. You can fax it in as per method 2 - the friendly fax.

------

Now on the day of your trial. You should tell the prosecutor that you plan to plead not guilty. He will offer you a deal to plead guilty (do not accept it - especially if the police officer and/or interpreter is NOT there). The prosecutor then will drop all charges for the people who have plead not guilty for which the police officer is not present (The Prosecutor may drop your charges here if he received your application for a stay, but this is unlikely since he may know that you requested it very late). Justice will then deal with all the guilty pleas. Justice/Prosecutor will then poll the court asking if anyone else plans to plead guilty (you still should not say anything). Then one at a time, she will call each of the remaining non-guilty pleas for their trial.

When it is your turn. The Justice will say "LoveRFD, how do you wish to plea. This is the point where you tell the Justice that you wish to make a motion to stay your trial as you have not received disclosure.

The prosecutor will argue that your disclosure request came too late in which the Justice will agree. But the likely result of this is that your trial will be Adjourned (postponed) so that you can get your disclosure request fulfilled. <--- This is the result you want.

This will mean that the police officer & interpreter will have to show up at your next trial (which most likely will NOT happen). This will also allow you to to have your charges dropped if you still don't receive disclosure or the disclosure material is lacking info.

----------

I only suggest going through the above if you DO NOT have a defense to your charge and plan on accepting a plea. As this will give you 4 reasons for your charges to be dropped (1, the interpreter doesn't show up at first trial. 2, the cop doesn't show up at your first trial. 3, the interpreter doesn't show up at your second trial. 4, the cop doesn't show up at your second trial).

..and a possible 5th is if your disclosure request is not fulfilled...

djino
"Goodluck!"
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Jan 11, 2008
7318 posts
804 upvotes
GTA
This is a useful thread djino as a lot of people post questions about their tickets.
Coffee Addict wrote:
May 18th, 2012 6:40 pm
If you don't have your pink slip on you and get a ticket for it (and eventually get convicted), will that affect your insurance rates?
djino wrote:
May 18th, 2012 6:45 pm
No. That type of conviction will not affect your insurance.

Though you could have got that ticket dropped if you would have showed up with it later with in a certain time after receiving the ticket. The police officer usually mentions this too.

Djino

This is actually incorrect. It is a minor ticket and can impact your rates. Some insurers don't increase for 1 minor ticket, but if yours does or if you have other tickets it can impact your insurance just as any other minor ticket may. There is a misconception that non-moving violations do not impact insurance, but if they are a minor ticket they have the same impact on insurance as other minor tickets. Parking tickets won't impact your insurance, but not having proof of insurance is a minor ticket and can impact your insurance.

COSMIC5 has confirmed this and here is a list of some minor tickets that people think won't impact rates (e.g. failure to produce evidence of insurance, not having an updated sticker):

http://www.ticketcombat.com/offences/insurancehit.php
Member
May 17, 2012
253 posts
30 upvotes
Toronto
Can you post a form that needs to be filled to have the trial dismissed based on the fact it took too long for trial date based on S11 of charter of rights and freedoms violation and whats the proper procedure with that?
I thought it was a simple as showing up to court and letting the prosecutor know that its been almost 18month since ticket date but i was wrong.
[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14275 posts
5175 upvotes
Gatineau
dima14riga wrote:
May 20th, 2012 6:42 pm
I thought it was a simple as showing up to court and letting the prosecutor know that its been almost 18month since ticket date but i was wrong.
One is legally allowed to make their stay request to the Justice at the beginning of your trial (without going through a formal application process), but since there is a process to follow as I outline in post #2, you may receive a lot of push back from both Prosecutor/Justice especially if they are not that trained concerning the rules of the court.

Unless you know better and can correct them, you might be subject to incorrect arguments or inappropriate decisions from the both of them. You are better off following the formal process to submit your stay application.
dima14riga wrote:
May 20th, 2012 6:42 pm
Can you post a form that needs to be filled to have the trial dismissed based on the fact it took too long for trial date based on S11 of charter of rights and freedoms violation and whats the proper procedure with that?

The form and process is listed out very clearly in post #3.

Use this form.
FORM 4F

Courts of Justice Act

NOTICE OF CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION

R. v. Your Last Name
The Defendant, Your Name, intends to claim a remedy under subsection 24 (1) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in relation to a violation of subsection 11 (b) of the Charter by the Government of Ontario. The defendant seeks the remedy of a stay of proceedings.

The question will be argued on Your Court Date at the Name and Adress of Court House.

Offence: Your Charge; PON#: Your Offence Number; Offence Date: Your Offence Date; Trial Date: Date Of Trial; Time: Time Of Trial; Courtroom: Location Or Room Number.

The following are the material facts giving rise to the constitutional question: As shown above, Your Offence Date is the date of the offence and Your Trial Date is the date of the Trial. This period of time constitutes an unreasonable delay.

The following is the legal basis for the constitutional question: The defendant has a legal right to be tried within a reasonable time. The defendant has not waived his right to a speedy trial, nor has the defendant been found at fault for the delay. (R. v. Askov, 1990 CanLII 45 (S.C.R.)). The defendant's legal right to be tried within a reasonable time has been infringed and in doing so has violated the defendant's section 11 (b) Charter right.

(Date) The Date You Are Filing This With The Court ................... Your Name, Address, Phone Number (Also Sign it here)

TO[INDENT]The Attorney General of Ontario (as required by section 109 of the Courts of Justice Act)
Constitutional Law Branch
4th floor
720 Bay Street
Toronto, Ontario M5G 2K1
fax: (416) 326-4015


The Attorney General of Canada (as required by section 109 of the Courts of Justice Act)
Suite 3400, Exchange Tower
Box 36, First Canadian Place
Toronto, Ontario M5X 1K6
fax: (416) 973-3004

Court Name and Address

Prosecutor Name and Address
[/INDENT]
djino
Deal Addict
User avatar
Aug 27, 2004
2225 posts
72 upvotes
Paris, France
djino wrote:
May 19th, 2012 7:38 am
WAYS TO "STAY" YOUR TRIAL OR HAVE YOUR CHARGES DROPPED BEFORE YOUR TRIAL BEGINS

3) There has been 10 months or more since you received the ticket to your trial date

Where are you getting this information from? 10 months seems a bit optimistic (though not impossible, since R v Morin puts it at 8 months), and you will likely have to argue hard for it.
R. ex rel City of Toronto v. Andrade, 2011 ONCJ 470 puts the limit at 11 months and 4 days of delay not attributable to the defendant.

That means if your first trial date is more than 11 months and 4 days after you filed for a court date, you have a pretty solid case.
[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14275 posts
5175 upvotes
Gatineau
D-3vil wrote:
May 21st, 2012 11:29 am
Where are you getting this information from? 10 months seems a bit optimistic (though not impossible, since R v Morin puts it at 8 months), and you will likely have to argue hard for it.
R. ex rel City of Toronto v. Andrade, 2011 ONCJ 470 puts the limit at 11 months and 4 days of delay not attributable to the defendant.

That means if your first trial date is more than 11 months and 4 days after you filed for a court date, you have a pretty solid case.

Yes, at 10 months, you will still need to argue for it, but many 11b motions have been accepted at 10 months. R vs Morin as you mention got it at 8.

Granted 12+ months is usually the norm, but if you have no defence to your charge, you have nothing to lose by requesting to stay your trial when there has been at least 10 months.

Djino
Deal Addict
Mar 14, 2004
2887 posts
306 upvotes
North Etobicoke
I Got a speeding ticket in Feb coming down a 407 overpass. Cop was coming a corner going NB and I'm going SB. Asked for trial, got a disclosure reading

CHARGE
going 90 in 70 zone Speeding contrary to Traffic act 128

COP NOTES
Me... NB 330m S 407
Him... S Side 407
Solo L ....... (not sure if it's solo)
Red Chevy
I got the user and installation manual of the unit Genesis 11 Directional (not no other info about when last it was calibrated)

What are my chances of winning this other than hoping he does not show.
[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14275 posts
5175 upvotes
Gatineau
Menthol wrote:
May 21st, 2012 12:07 pm
I Got a speeding ticket in Feb coming down a 407 overpass. Cop was coming a corner going NB and I'm going SB. Asked for trial, got a disclosure reading

CHARGE
going 90 in 70 zone Speeding contrary to Traffic act 128

COP NOTES
Me... NB 330m S 407
Him... S Side 407
Solo L ....... (not sure if it's solo)
Red Chevy
I got the user and installation manual of the unit Genesis 11 Directional (not no other info about when last it was calibrated)

What are my chances of winning this other than hoping he does not show.

When is your trial date??

Does the manual state when the radar needs to be calibrated/tested?? If so, does disclosure indicate when the cop did this? If not, send another disclosure asking for this bit of information.

What exactly did you specifically request/receive with your disclosure?

Have a Read though this.
Document The Environment And Conditions

Go back to the offence site and look around. Was the signage clear. Was it blocked by tree branches or mounds of snow?
Take photographs of the area if it will be helpful. Make sure YOU take the photograph. If someone else does, then they have to be in court to attest to the particulars (i.e. date and time) of the photograph.

Linear Direction

Are there large metal signs or bridges along the road? Large metal objects affect radar and laser (lidar) gun readings. Was the road flat or were you going down a hill? The radar or laser (lidar) gun has to be on the same vector as your direction of travel.

For example, Cawthra Road in Mississauga is very popular with the Peel Regional Police to operate a speed trap. The officer looks north on Cawthra, just south of the Dundas overpass. The officer will target vehicles just as they emerge from under the bridge and before the driver has a chance to see the trap.

[IMG]http://ticketcombat.com/step3/cawthra.jpg[/IMG]

Notice how the road dips, curves slightly and then rises to where the officer is standing. While the officer has a clear view of the vehicles, the direction of travel is not linear toward the officer. A laser gun reading would be suspect and easily attacked for its accuracy. Also notice the large cement bridges which make it difficult to operate a radar gun in this location.

This doesn't stop the police from routinely operating a speed trap here. More than 80% of the tickets they issue will be paid without dispute. A lucrative business by any standard.

Also notice that this is a very unusual place to conduct speed enforcement. This area statistically has an extremely low accident rate. There are no driver distractions (other than the police). Both directions of travel are separated by a wide concrete median and concrete support pillars for the overpass. There are no side streets, driveways, hidden entranceways, crosswalks, schools, or exposed pedestrians.

Measure Distance

Download a satellite image from Google's Map site or streetscape if they have it. It is to scale and will help you measure distance from where the officer was standing and where the road signs are. Be careful, you can't submit these as compelling evidence as you don't know who took it or when so the relevancy for your defence is minimal. However if the distance between the speed sign and where the officer was standing is too short, it draws into question the authenticity of the charge.

For example, if the "60km/hr" sign is 100 metres from where the officer was standing, your vehicle has to pass the 60km/hr sign BEFORE the officer can use his radar or lidar reading for that speed zone. Otherwise you are in a different speed zone. And in order to stop you he has to get you to start slowing down well in advance of where he is standing otherwise you'll run him over. If you are clocked at 100km/hr, you are travelling 27.8 metres per second. That means the officer has just over three seconds to take the reading and stop you before you have passed him. That means he's got less than a second to take the reading, walk out into traffic and raise his hand to stop you. Even then you can't stop a car going 100km/hr in two seconds. More likely, he started clocking you BEFORE you reached the 60km/hr sign which means the ticket is invalid.
djino
Deal Addict
User avatar
Apr 22, 2009
1120 posts
17 upvotes
Whats the point of getting the disclosure if the charges are there on the ticket? Seems as if you're just trying to go through a loop hole of buying time/delay/drop the ticket, won't the court see through your motive?

Also, its been months and I don't EXACTLY recall the officers face, I have an idea of what he looks like but if there are so multiple officers there will it be easy to spot him?

Thanks,
[OP]
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 24, 2008
14275 posts
5175 upvotes
Gatineau
AND this ...

[QUOTE]Weather

Print the weather report for the day of your offence from at least two different sources and note the date and time you accessed this information. Environment Canada has an excellent historical weather database.

Why are you doing this? In court you are going to challenge the officer's recollection of the facts. That's why you ask "What was the weather like?" If the officer is smart he'll say he doesn't remember which also casts doubt to his recollection of the facts. If the officer tells you what the weather was like, you can submit your weather report as a rebuttal to his recollection of facts.

Weather also plays a factor in road conditions, visibility, etc. You can be charged for going too fast for conditions. If it is slippery and icy, travelling 5 km/hr below the speed limit may still be too fast for road conditions and you can get a ticket for careless driving. To dispute that, you need a weather report.

An officer using a lidar gun without a tripod is trying to hit a 3cm square dot on your licence plate from a distance of 100 metres or more. That's quite a difficult shot on the best day. If there is any wind, it will affect his aim and call into question his ability to take an accurate reading. The Weather Underground has excellent hourly measurements including wind speed.[/QUOTE]

djino

Top

Thread Information

There are currently 2 users viewing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)