Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

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Feb 24, 2008
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Maryanna1 wrote: Hi Djino,
I just have one question for you at this time. When we go to the court to request for a trial, how do I tell them that both my husband and I want to be heard at the same time. My husband got 3 tickets and I got 1, but we both want to have the trial at the same time as we both were in the van and need each other to tell our sides of the story.
You've been always very helpful and we appreciate what you're doing to help people out :)
That is a great question, but I am not 100% sure of the answer. When you see the court to request a trial, ask them at that time. And please reply back on what they say.

djino
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jremolador wrote: Will they convict me of the charge? The office was closed by the time I tried calling.
Call them again today, and let me know what they say...


djino
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wewillsee wrote: Djino, I did get the testing manual from them.... unfortunately im travelling right now but I was able to take pictures:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/axod7gk6la3cwke/RGcCTp_tX4

cliff notes:

he did a Tuning fork test which is in accordance with the manual.
there is an auto self test which initiates every 15 minutes.
there is an internal self-circuit test which indicates that after this test being performed the tuning fork mode kicks in, would this mean that if he checked the tuning forks, he did indeed do the internal test?
These are questions you would probably need to prepare for cross-examination of the police officer to see if all testing as per the manual was completed and done correctly. <-- This assuming you actually proceed to trial, but hopefully the cop doesn't show up or your stay motion is granted.
wewillsee wrote: I am planning to definitely make a motion to stay based on improper handling of evidence. I have prepared a timeline to be used in court:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/85881q75pk7ok ... meline.jpg

my argument will basically go along the lines of:
it took prosecution 9 weeks to partially fulfil a simple disclosure request after more than 3 requests. They have the legal knowledge and a full time job which they are getting paid for. I have no legal knowledge, have work and family committments and am not getting paid for it, but I am expected to prepare a defence in less than 2 weeks would be unfair.
Good job. If you have time between today and your July 3rd trial, I would look search past cases from canlii.org for defendant who were successful (brought valid arguments) in getting a Stay.

djino
"Goodluck, and let me know what happens at trial!"
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Mar 5, 2011
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Toronto
another situation i have a question about (seems they are catching up with their backlog or something because i got 3 notices of trials or early resolution meetings in the past 2 weeks!):

i was pulled over near the end of april and ended up being given a ticket for driving with expired validation sticker. my plate registration expired april 16th, 2012 (yes, the same month they pulled me over). the reason i didn't renew it in time is because i didn't know that april on the sticker meant the start of april (rather than good till end of april which is what i had thought). in the past, he had always been the one to renew but since the car is now mine, we recently transferred ownership over to me and so i am doing all of it now). i never received any reminder notice in the mail (not sure if they send these the way they do for your license?). now i know it expires on your bday (april 16th is mu dad's) but i didn't know this before. anyway, i got the plate renewed shortly after and the proper sticker is on it now.

i had requested an early resolution meeting and received my notice of a date today. it is july 12th. i am hoping to show them my renewed plate, explain my situation (new car owner, it was only expired for a very short time, i have earned my lesson, etc.) and have this charge dropped completely as i don't want it to affect my insurance premiums. will this work? do you have any advice?

thanks in advance for your help!
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helenhelen wrote: another situation i have a question about (seems they are catching up with their backlog or something because i got 3 notices of trials or early resolution meetings in the past 2 weeks!):

i was pulled over near the end of april and ended up being given a ticket for driving with expired validation sticker. my plate registration expired april 16th, 2012 (yes, the same month they pulled me over). the reason i didn't renew it in time is because i didn't know that april on the sticker meant the start of april (rather than good till end of april which is what i had thought). in the past, he had always been the one to renew but since the car is now mine, we recently transferred ownership over to me and so i am doing all of it now). i never received any reminder notice in the mail (not sure if they send these the way they do for your license?). now i know it expires on your bday (april 16th is mu dad's) but i didn't know this before. anyway, i got the plate renewed shortly after and the proper sticker is on it now.

i had requested an early resolution meeting and received my notice of a date today. it is july 12th. i am hoping to show them my renewed plate, explain my situation (new car owner, it was only expired for a very short time, i have earned my lesson, etc.) and have this charge dropped completely as i don't want it to affect my insurance premiums. will this work? do you have any advice?

thanks in advance for your help!
It may, it may not. Depends on the prosecutor and your circumstance. But my advice is to follow through as you are, in seeing the prosecutor and asking for them to drop charges on the expired validation sticker. There is no guaranty either way what the result will be, but there is no harm in asking.

djino
"Goodluck!"
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superdave316 wrote: Hi djino,

I got a parking ticket for exceeding 3 hour limit in Burlington, however the bylaw section that is on the ticket is incorrect. Ticket says Part VII, S.31.1(1), but actual section of the infraction is (l) not (1). Is that enough to make the ticket go away?
djino wrote: Do you mind sending me a PM with a copy of your ticket please?
So I just checked a City Of Burlington Bylaws document -> http://cms.burlington.ca/AssetFactory.aspx?did=9257

Your Parking Infraction ticket shows offence: Contrary to City of Burlington, By-law: 87-2007 , Section: Part VII, S.31.1(1) , PARK EXCEEDING 3-HOUR LIMIT.

When I check the above site, there is no S.31.1(1). Park exceeding 3-HOUR LIMIT falls under S.31.1(L) as you mentioned in your first post.

Too me this would be considered a FATAL FLAW as S.31.1(1) is an unknown offence (e.g. speeding 90km/hr in a 77km/hr zone);


-----

So what is the next step?

Request a Trial (or you can try to find another reason for this ticket to be dropped by following post #43 , which is to delay requesting a trial until the due date of your notice of impending conviction in hopes the city doesn't file with the court within 75 days).

Once you have requested trial, wait for the notice of trial to arrive in the mail (If you want to find see if there is also another way to have your ticket dropped, you should request disclosure, once disclosure arrives, check the date that the city filed your case with the court).

NOTE: You must be careful as to NOT disclose this fatal error to the prosecutor at any time (not at a first attendance meeting, nor before trial) as the prosecutor may be able to correct the error before your trial starts OR he can drop the charge before your trial starts and then issue a summons for the same charge within 6 months (while the charge is fixed) to avoid the fatal error.

AT Trial, you will need to do the following....

http://ticketcombat.com/step5/quash.php
Quash Proceedings Due To Flaws

You say, " Prior to entering a plea Your Worship, I move that these proceedings be quashed on the grounds that ..." There are a couple of grounds you can argue:
  • the charge is insufficient
  • the information (your ticket) bears a fatal flaw on its face
Your strategy here is that the flaw on your ticket is fatal to the charge. You can also argue that the flaw has somehow misled you in preparing a defence. Let’s look at these in detail…

Procedural Defence – Insufficient Charge

You say, "Prior to entering a plea Your Worship, I move that these proceedings be quashed on the grounds that the charge is insufficient." This procedural defence argues that the charging document must clearly identify what you did wrong. It should indicate:
  • the date, time and place of the offence;
  • What act you violated;
  • Who has laid the charge.
In order for you to prepare an adequate defence you need to know what wrong you allegedly committed. If they haven't provided it, the trial should not continue. Please note that in this case the justice may rule that the charge be amended or that you be provided with additional information. It may not be enough to get the charge withdrawn.

Errors And Fatal Flaws On The Ticket

You say, " Prior to entering a plea Your Worship, I move that these proceedings be quashed on the grounds that the information (your ticket) bears a fatal flaw on its face."

The idea of fatal errors comes literally from the old formal and very technical penal system where many crimes were punishable by death. In an effort to alleviate the severity of the law, judges would dismiss cases on minor technicalities based on a desire to avoid mandatory harsh penalties for relatively slight offences.

In 1978, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in R. v. Sault Ste. Marie, 1978 CanLII 11 (S.C.C.) that those days had passed. In modern law, judges "look for substance and not petty formalities." In other words, the chances of getting off on a minor technicality are extremely difficult.

Many people mistakenly assume that an error on a ticket will get it thrown out of court. In reality the Court may amend the ticket at any time under Section 34 of the Provincial Offences Act. The only flaws that gets the ticket thrown out (fatal flaws) are:
  • no offence date;
  • no defendant’s name (if your name is misspelled, the ticket still counts);
  • no location;
  • missing officer’s signature;
  • unknown offence (e.g. speeding 70kh/hr in a 64km/hr zone);
  • the filing date is beyond seven days.
You can try to argue that the error in the document produces a failure to comply with regulations or legislation. However, this failure must be more than minor or inconsequential. It should void the document.

Or an alternative would be to argue that correcting the defect would lead to a substantial injustice that cannot be corrected by an adjournment. You must argue that the error deprives you of your right to know and defend the charge against you. You must show how it will impact the possible outcome of your trial.

Here the court will not be concerned about you getting off on a technicality. You must demonstrate that the error mislead you. The court will examine the effect of this error upon your defence. You prepared your defence based on this error. If the error is corrected, you should ask for an adjournment to prepare your defence once more. (This opens up the possibility for a stay).

Or it might prove wise to ignore the error until the trial begins. You can then "discover" the error at an appropriate time and argue that it prejudiced you, caused an injustice or created a substantial wrong. You were misled in the preparation of your defence and this error will prove unjustly "fatal" to your defence.
djino
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Sep 3, 2007
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I am new to this thread, so please bear with me. I have read the first and last couple of pages on this thread and thought I post my question. I will go back and read some more to educate myself.

I was stopped earlier this year for turning left on red.

It was raining and traffic was bad. When light was green (no arrow) on coming traffic would not allow more then a car to to turn on green or yellow. So, most cars were turning on red. On my turn, two of the cars turned on yellow and 3rd card and me (4th car truned on red). Once I made the turn, I saw police car lights turned on and he make a u-turn from the other side and came and stopped both myself and the car ahead of me to hand out a turning on red light ticket. He was very upset at me and I can understand why, but I also thought felt that if I didn't I would be in left in the middle of the intersection.

Any how, I got my trial date which is for July 22nd. I ready your 1st post and it says to ask for disclouser. Do I still have time for that? I only have less then a month to go for this?

Thanks for any feedback.

Regards.

I am just looking at the letter I received from the court and my infraction was from Dec 11th 2011. Also, I don't see any contact info on it for the prosecutor either? Am I missing something? The letter is signed above where it says, "clerk / Justice / or Designated person". There is an 800 # which I called but it's for the office of the disability issues.
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joejack wrote: I am new to this thread, so please bear with me. I have read the first and last couple of pages on this thread and thought I post my question. I will go back and read some more to educate myself.

I was stopped earlier this year for turning left on red.

It was raining and traffic was bad. When light was green (no arrow) on coming traffic would not allow more then a car to to turn on green or yellow. So, most cars were turning on red. On my turn, two of the cars turned on yellow and 3rd card and me (4th car truned on red). Once I made the turn, I saw police car lights turned on and he make a u-turn from the other side and came and stopped both myself and the car ahead of me to hand out a turning on red light ticket. He was very upset at me and I can understand why, but I also thought felt that if I didn't I would be in left in the middle of the intersection.

Any how, I got my trial date which is for July 22nd. I ready your 1st post and it says to ask for disclouser. Do I still have time for that? I only have less then a month to go for this?

Thanks for any feedback.

Regards.

I am just looking at the letter I received from the court and my infraction was from Dec 11th 2011. Also, I don't see any contact info on it for the prosecutor either? Am I missing something? The letter is signed above where it says, "clerk / Justice / or Designated person". There is an 800 # which I called but it's for the office of the disability issues.
Yes, immediately ASAP, send this disclosure request document to the prosecutor asking for disclosure of the evidence against you. Contact the court and ask for the prosecutor's contact info.

You have your trial on July 22nd? On a Sunday!!??

djino
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Sep 3, 2007
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djino wrote: Yes, immediately ASAP, send this disclosure request document to the prosecutor asking for disclosure of the evidence against you. Contact the court and ask for the prosecutor's contact info.

You have your trial on July 22nd? On a Sunday!!??

djino
Thank you for your feed back. I will contact the court to get the prosecutor's details.

My bad, with regards to 22nd July, it's actually 20th July.
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May 29, 2011
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Toronto
Hi djino, Thank you for making this thread. Here is my unfortunate issue that arose today.

I want to sell my vehicle that was just deemed Unsafe and had its plates removed. The Cop that eventually came along and told me the reasoning wasn't that bad, and truly its just because its lowered and has tint.

While I drive the car without tire rubbing, I see his point - and to cut a long story short, while this import has been a labor of love for me, I have been pressured on the home front to sell it anyway. So its not an unsafe vehicle per say, but it needs to be raised (i have coilovers so its not hard, except I need a shop with spring compressors on hand), and tint removed. Right now its at home, and to take it to the tire shop and then to a Safety shop is too much hassle in terms of tow truck costs and the very fact that I was planning to sell this car this summer anyway.

I told the cop I want to sell it, and he said I could sell it as is, and I'd be scot free of fixing all this stuff, but I would still have to show face on my court date explaining what happened and that it now is sold. He recommended a Paralegal for that, but in the same breath mentioned that it wouldnt be a big deal once I sold it (confused)...I guess that part is another story.

Here is my question:
The car is unsafe and without plates. I want to sell it as-is and with full disclosure to the Buyer on what needs to be done in order to safety it (truth be known, I got it safetied at Canadian tire without a problem, but now with this new yellow sheet the cop gave me, maybe he has to safety it with that ("raise car, remove tint), or on his own without addressing those issues and just my heads up?)
How do I sell this thing? What about liability because it has no plates. Can the Buyer get a temp plate with this Yellow sheet (Vehicle Report Notice - Defect Repair Verification Notice) pending?

Thanks!
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joejack wrote: Thank you for your feed back. I will contact the court to get the prosecutor's details.

My bad, with regards to 22nd July, it's actually 20th July.
Now, you most likely won't receive disclosure before trial. There is a formal process to have your trial stopped due to no disclosure, this process requires you to send an application to the attorney generals with at least 15 days.

I document this process in post #3. So by next Wednesday July 4th, you should submit this application (again, follow the process as outlined in Post #3 - using the following form).

Blank Form.
FORM 4F

Courts of Justice Act

NOTICE OF CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION

R. v. Your Last Name
The Defendant, Your Name, intends to claim a remedy under subsection 24 (1) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in relation to a violation of Section 7 of the Charter by the Government of Ontario. The defendant seeks the remedy of a stay of proceedings.

The question will be argued on Your Court Date at the Name and Adress of Court House.

Offence: Your Charge; PON#: Your Offence Number; Offence Date: Your Offence Date; Trial Date: Date Of Trial; Time: Time Of Trial; Courtroom: Location Or Room Number.

The following are the material facts giving rise to the constitutional question: On The Date You Requested Disclosure the defendant requested disclosure. The defendant specifically requested State Items Requested In Disclosure. State What Was Not Provided were not provided.

The following is the legal basis for the constitutional question: The prosecutor has a legal duty to disclose information that is useful to the defence in order to know the evidence against them, prepare for trial and make full answer to the charge. (R. v. Stinchcombe, 1991 CanLII 45 (S.C.C.); R. v. O'Connor, 1995 CanLII 51 (S.C.C.)). The prosecutor has failed to meet its disclosure obligation and in doing so has violated the defendant's section 7 Charter right. The defendant is requesting a stay of proceedings pursuant to Section 24(1) of the Charter.

(Date) The Date You Are Filing This With The Court ................... Your Name, Address, Phone Number (Also Sign it here)

TO[INDENT]The Attorney General of Ontario (as required by section 109 of the Courts of Justice Act)
Constitutional Law Branch
4th floor
720 Bay Street
Toronto, Ontario M5G 2K1
fax: (416) 326-4015


The Attorney General of Canada (as required by section 109 of the Courts of Justice Act)
Suite 3400, Exchange Tower
Box 36, First Canadian Place
Toronto, Ontario M5X 1K6
fax: (416) 973-3004

Court Name and Address

Prosecutor Name and Address
[/INDENT]
Newbie
Jun 23, 2012
11 posts
Toronto
djino wrote: That is a great question, but I am not 100% sure of the answer. When you see the court to request a trial, ask them at that time. And please reply back on what they say.

djino
I asked the court if both my husband and I could be heard the same day. The lady said it is most likely that we both would have a trial together but she was not 100% sure. I guess I would just have to wait and see.
I have one question for you at this time. When my husband is ready to send a disclosure letter, does he need to mail a separate letter for all the 3 tickets he got or can he mention all the 3 tickets on the same letter. Do you think the cop would have made a report for both myself and my husband together or he would have made 4 separate notes/reports for all the 4 tickets he handed out that day? We don't want to miss out on anything when we are requesting for the disclosure therefore we want to make sure we get all the notes that the police had written that day.
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Newb2this wrote: Hi djino, Thank you for making this thread. Here is my unfortunate issue that arose today.

I want to sell my vehicle that was just deemed Unsafe and had its plates removed. The Cop that eventually came along and told me the reasoning wasn't that bad, and truly its just because its lowered and has tint.

While I drive the car without tire rubbing, I see his point - and to cut a long story short, while this import has been a labor of love for me, I have been pressured on the home front to sell it anyway. So its not an unsafe vehicle per say, but it needs to be raised (i have coilovers so its not hard, except I need a shop with spring compressors on hand), and tint removed. Right now its at home, and to take it to the tire shop and then to a Safety shop is too much hassle in terms of tow truck costs and the very fact that I was planning to sell this car this summer anyway.

I told the cop I want to sell it, and he said I could sell it as is, and I'd be scot free of fixing all this stuff, but I would still have to show face on my court date explaining what happened and that it now is sold. He recommended a Paralegal for that, but in the same breath mentioned that it wouldnt be a big deal once I sold it (confused)...I guess that part is another story.

Here is my question:
The car is unsafe and without plates. I want to sell it as-is and with full disclosure to the Buyer on what needs to be done in order to safety it (truth be known, I got it safetied at Canadian tire without a problem, but now with this new yellow sheet the cop gave me, maybe he has to safety it with that ("raise car, remove tint), or on his own without addressing those issues and just my heads up?)
How do I sell this thing? What about liability because it has no plates. Can the Buyer get a temp plate with this Yellow sheet (Vehicle Report Notice - Defect Repair Verification Notice) pending?

Thanks!
Hey Newb2this, I fortunately I do not have the background/experience to answer the above questions. Perhaps it maybe best to create its own thread for it, as you may get better results.

djino
"Sorry!"
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Maryanna1 wrote: I asked the court if both my husband and I could be heard the same day. The lady said it is most likely that we both would have a trial together but she was not 100% sure. I guess I would just have to wait and see.
I have one question for you at this time. When my husband is ready to send a disclosure letter, does he need to mail a separate letter for all the 3 tickets he got or can he mention all the 3 tickets on the same letter. Do you think the cop would have made a report for both myself and my husband together or he would have made 4 separate notes/reports for all the 4 tickets he handed out that day? We don't want to miss out on anything when we are requesting for the disclosure therefore we want to make sure we get all the notes that the police had written that day.
Lets first wait and see what the Notice of Trial looks like - If they are all grouped together at the same trial date/time, or on different dates. If they are different dates/times, then yes, I would request separate disclosure requests on each ticket. If your trials are all on the same date/time, then you should be able to make one request for all tickets.

djino
"Goodluck, let me know when you get your notice of trial"
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Sep 26, 2008
820 posts
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Hi djino,

I've traveling through the provinces right now, I got a parking bylaw ticket in Alberta. "Side wheel on grass" is what the note says, or what I can make of it. It says I can request an administrative review, should I do that and request proof/disclosure? The ticket isn't very legible (officer can't write very well)

Thanks!
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Not sure if you remember my request, but I was the one you answered earlier this month where I had sent in my disclosure request and got my disclosure package (was just a very short page of the officer's notes, which were barely legible). Didn't end up getting the time to deal with it and my trial's tomorrow. I basically banking on my word against his or him not showing up I guess. Oh well. But anyways, does anyone know how likely the police officer is to show up in Toronto cases with the OPP?
Member
Mar 5, 2011
241 posts
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Toronto
djino wrote: WHEN YOU SHOULD DO NOTHING (Don't Pay Fine, Don't Request A Trial)

1) Incorrect Fine

2) Parking Tickets

- In Toronto, consider filing a parking ticket dispute to cancel your parking ticket -> http://www.toronto.ca/pay-toronto-ticke ... cation.pdf

--------
LAST UPDATE: June 16th 2012 - 5:25pm EST

can you explain why we are to do nothing in these cases? won't they still mail you the fine notice if you ignore your ticket?
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Oct 19, 2009
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Hey Djino,

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and would like to thank and commend you for offering up your time and experience helping out fellow rfd'ers with their various situations. I'll cut to the chase, I know this is really short notice but I have a meeting with the prosecutor tomorrow June 28th at 2:15 pm. Through reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that is is generally a waste of time as the prosecutor will likely not offer a deal that would not result in an insurance rate increase but I made the request before coming to this thread. I received a speeding ticket and was clocked going 61 in a 40 zone. I was just wondering what the proceedings will be like tomorrow. Things like how long it will take, will it be a one on one face to face meeting or will there be other people in the room? And will the prosecutor offer more than one deal? I also intend on going to trial if a suitable offer is not presented (a charge that will not affect my insurance). Is there a formal way of doing so or is telling the prosecutor sufficient? I also intend to request disclosure and am wondering if I would be able to do so tomorrow and if I could would it be better to wait a bit or do it right away? Sorry I realized that was a lot to read and a lot of questions, it's my first ever ticket and I am a little bit nervous as I am a male under 25 and insurance is already pretty high with a clean record.

edit: On the early resolution notice that was sent to me it states that an interpreter was requested but I know I did not request one. Is that going to be an issue, or will I be able to use that to my advantage in anyway?
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syuzh wrote: Hi djino,

I've traveling through the provinces right now, I got a parking bylaw ticket in Alberta. "Side wheel on grass" is what the note says, or what I can make of it. It says I can request an administrative review, should I do that and request proof/disclosure? The ticket isn't very legible (officer can't write very well)

Thanks!
I assume this "administrative review" = First Attendance? Sorry, I've never heard it refer to this if I am correct. If I am correct, well there is not much of a need for it since whatever deal the prosecutor will offer, will be offered just prior to your trial starting.

Should you request Disclosure, of course you should!!! :)


djino
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Canada_7 wrote: So I have a trial date coming up at the end of June at the Eglinton West courthouse. I have requested and received disclosure, which was merely a photocopy of the officer's notes (very roughly written, barely legible but not the point). Ticket was for HOV lane on 404 getting onto the 401. Got into that lane because I was starting to feel sick (ended up throwing up) for a long story short. Anything else I have to really do at this point?
djino wrote: What does it say for the officer's notes??
Canada_7 wrote: R.O.T.H. L.O *illegible*

No valid excuse

Signs *illegible*

ID(?) *illegible* p4/*illegible*
djino wrote: Did your disclosure request ask that they also provide a typed up version of the notes?

Use this form to send another request for disclosure.

You will most likely not receive it in time to prepare for your trial, so during trial (assuming the cop is there).. you do as I posted in post #118
Though in your case, you should argue that you should not be at fault for the trial being delayed since you could not read your disclosure material to prepare your defence.
Canada_7 wrote: Not sure if you remember my request, but I was the one you answered earlier this month where I had sent in my disclosure request and got my disclosure package (was just a very short page of the officer's notes, which were barely legible). Didn't end up getting the time to deal with it and my trial's tomorrow. I basically banking on my word against his or him not showing up I guess. Oh well. But anyways, does anyone know how likely the police officer is to show up in Toronto cases with the OPP?
Yes, I recall your post.

Did you send another request for disclosure as I mentioned above?

Did you complete a stay application?

How likely are cops to show up in Toronto traffic ticket cases? <--- I can't answer that as I don't live in Toronto.

Goodluck, I hope your trial goes well.

djino

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